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dukeclassof2016
08-19-2015, 03:12 PM
Sporting News ranked the top basketball programs since 2000-01 using a metric based on each program's respective national championships, national championship appearances, Final Fours, players of the year, first-team all-Americans, overall winning percentage, total NCAA tournament wins and total NBA draft picks.

Obviously, it ought to be no surprise that Duke is, clearly and by far, number 1.

Take a look at the list here:

http://www.sportingnews.com/list/4652937-top-college-basketball-teams-programs-decade

Kedsy
08-19-2015, 03:21 PM
Obviously, it ought to be no surprise that Duke is, clearly and by far, number 1.

Well, it might surprise some, since I recall some arguing as recently as this past season that Duke had clearly slipped in the pantheon of top programs.

luburch
08-19-2015, 03:35 PM
FWIW, SportingNews also ranked Coach K's 10 best players of all time.

http://www.sportingnews.com/list/4633547-top-10-best-duke-basketball-players-of-all-time-greatest-mike-krzyzewski-coach-k

(Yes, I realize what debate I may have just started. I am sorry. Please don't hate me.)

flyingdutchdevil
08-19-2015, 03:48 PM
Sporting News ranked the top basketball programs since 2000-01 using a metric based on each program's respective national championships, national championship appearances, Final Fours, players of the year, first-team all-Americans, overall winning percentage, total NCAA tournament wins and total NBA draft picks.

Obviously, it ought to be no surprise that Duke is, clearly and by far, number 1.

Take a look at the list here:

http://www.sportingnews.com/list/4652937-top-college-basketball-teams-programs-decade

The only time I was surprised with that list was UConn at #4. But three natties will do that, so I shouldn't be surprised. But outside of that 2003-04 team, UConn hasn't seemed to have a dominant team on paper; they just continuously outperform.

CDu
08-19-2015, 05:20 PM
The only time I was surprised with that list was UConn at #4. But three natties will do that, so I shouldn't be surprised. But outside of that 2003-04 team, UConn hasn't seemed to have a dominant team on paper; they just continuously outperform.

Yeah, it is skewed heavily towards tourney results, as you get poll-style points for most tourney wins, 4 points per final four, and either for more for a championship loss or 8 more for a championship win. So even though they were ranked 15th in overall win percentage, they get a huge boost from those 3 title runs.

As for us, we certainly benefit from the timeframe; if the do a 15-year lookback next year and, say, UK wins it with us not making the final four, we could drpp to #2. Still great, but just shows there is some sensitivity of the metric.

Olympic Fan
08-19-2015, 06:02 PM
Yeah, it is skewed heavily towards tourney results, as you get poll-style points for most tourney wins, 4 points per final four, and either for more for a championship loss or 8 more for a championship win. So even though they were ranked 15th in overall win percentage, they get a huge boost from those 3 title runs.

As for us, we certainly benefit from the timeframe; if the do a 15-year lookback next year and, say, UK wins it with us not making the final four, we could drpp to #2. Still great, but just shows there is some sensitivity of the metric.

Obviously, everything depends on time frame ... starting in 2001 certainly helps us. I'd actually think that I'd start in the 1999-2000 season to include the entire 21st century so far, but even thought hat would move Michigan State (and Florida and UNC) up a bit, I guarantee you that Duke would still be No. 1.

In fact, if you were to track the modern era of college basketball -- from the start of the 1984-85 season when the modern 64-team NCAA Tournament was adopted -- then Duke would still be No. 1.

I agree that the SI metric does reward postseason success over consistency or regular season success. But isn't that the way most fans look at it? Whose season would you rather have last year -- Kentucky's (39 wins and wire-to-wire No. 1 in the AP poll) or Duke's? I do think the rankings undervalue Arizona a bit -- I think that program has been better than Wisconsin or UCLA. I was flad to see Kansas honored at No. 2, because that has been one of the most consistent programs of the 21st century (indeed, of the modern NCAA era).

Kentucky has a case for the years 2010-15, but that first decade of the century was not nearly so strong.

CDu
08-19-2015, 06:24 PM
Obviously, everything depends on time frame ... starting in 2001 certainly helps us. I'd actually think that I'd start in the 1999-2000 season to include the entire 21st century so far, but even thought hat would move Michigan State (and Florida and UNC) up a bit, I guarantee you that Duke would still be No. 1.

In fact, if you were to track the modern era of college basketball -- from the start of the 1984-85 season when the modern 64-team NCAA Tournament was adopted -- then Duke would still be No. 1.

I agree that the SI metric does reward postseason success over consistency or regular season success. But isn't that the way most fans look at it? Whose season would you rather have last year -- Kentucky's (39 wins and wire-to-wire No. 1 in the AP poll) or Duke's? I do think the rankings undervalue Arizona a bit -- I think that program has been better than Wisconsin or UCLA. I was flad to see Kansas honored at No. 2, because that has been one of the most consistent programs of the 21st century (indeed, of the modern NCAA era).

Kentucky has a case for the years 2010-15, but that first decade of the century was not nearly so strong.

I am not complaining about the metric. Just pointing out why UConn did so well in the metric. And noting that the time frame matters. In the 2000s? We are the best. In the last 10 years? It is a toss-up between Duke and UK. In the last 5 years? UConn and UK probably edge us in the metric. But by any measure and time frame we come out looking very good, and but many/most we are #1. Just that this particular snapshot (along with the 25- and 30-year views, are the absolute apex spans of our success relative to the field.

El_Diablo
08-19-2015, 08:09 PM
Obviously, everything depends on time frame ... starting in 2001 certainly helps us. I'd actually think that I'd start in the 1999-2000 season to include the entire 21st century so far, but even thought hat would move Michigan State (and Florida and UNC) up a bit, I guarantee you that Duke would still be No. 1.

The 21st century started on January 1, 2001, so it includes the entire century so far.

jbay201
08-19-2015, 08:23 PM
National championships are the most important by far and should be much more heavily weighted IMO. Duke is clearly number 1 with UConn as the number 2 then Kansas and then Florida (since they have been largely irrelevant except for their back to back championships).

UK failed to get it done the majority of time when it mattered in April with their only successful season coming with Anthony Davis and relatively weak overall field. As for UNC, they're NC count needs to be adjusted to 0 as well as FF to 0 as all those players were ineligible due to their scandal which knocks them out of the top 15.

Edouble
08-19-2015, 11:38 PM
National championships are the most important by far and should be much more heavily weighted IMO. Duke is clearly number 1 with UConn as the number 2 then Kansas and then Florida (since they have been largely irrelevant except for their back to back championships).

UK failed to get it done the majority of time when it mattered in April with their only successful season coming with Anthony Davis and relatively weak overall field. As for UNC, they're NC count needs to be adjusted to 0 as well as FF to 0 as all those players were ineligible due to their scandal which knocks them out of the top 15.

A field so weak, we lost as a #2 seed in the first game.

I take much more issue with UConn's two most recent title teams. Now those were some weak teams. I give credit where credit is due. That was a really solid Kentucky squad.

Olympic Fan
08-20-2015, 01:11 AM
A field so weak, we lost as a #2 seed in the first game.

I take much more issue with UConn's two most recent title teams. Now those were some weak teams. I give credit where credit is due. That was a really solid Kentucky squad.

Complaining about UConn's 2011 champion smacks of the same kind of sour grapes that we get from Kentucky fans -- two nights after Arizona dumped Duke in the Sweet 16, UConn knocked off the Wildcats.

And, El Diablo, totally disagree about the start oft the 21st Century .. Jan. 1, 2000 was the Y2K year. And, yes, I know there was never a year "0" ... but in point of fact, there was never a year "1" either ... the numerical year designations came much, much later.

sagegrouse
08-20-2015, 08:20 AM
The 21st century started on January 1, 2001, so it includes the entire century so far.

Yes, but computers around the world saluted January 1, 2000, as did the rest of us.

duke blue brewcrew
08-20-2015, 08:42 AM
FWIW, SportingNews also ranked Coach K's 10 best players of all time.

http://www.sportingnews.com/list/4633547-top-10-best-duke-basketball-players-of-all-time-greatest-mike-krzyzewski-coach-k

(Yes, I realize what debate I may have just started. I am sorry. Please don't hate me.)

I saw this as well, very interesting list! However, it's not clear what criteria or point system was used to determine the order for the list. I'm surprised that Grant Hill is #8 and Johnny Dawkins (All time leading scorer in Duke history until JJ, and didn't have the benefit of a 3 point line) is #6 on this list! The big 3 from the '91 & '92 teams are represented. No one from the '10 Natty is on the list, Singler would probably be my thought there.

10. The Landlord
9. Elton Brand
8. Grant Hill
7. Shane "Who's Yo Daddy?" Battier
6. Johnny Dawkins
5. Danny Ferry
4. Bobby Hurley
3. JJ Redick
2. Jay Williams
1. Christian Laettner

JasonEvans
08-20-2015, 11:07 AM
I saw this as well, very interesting list! However, it's not clear what criteria or point system was used to determine the order for the list. I'm surprised that Grant Hill is #8 and Johnny Dawkins (All time leading scorer in Duke history until JJ, and didn't have the benefit of a 3 point line) is #6 on this list! The big 3 from the '91 & '92 teams are represented. No one from the '10 Natty is on the list, Singler would probably be my thought there.

10. The Landlord
9. Elton Brand
8. Grant Hill
7. Shane "Who's Yo Daddy?" Battier
6. Johnny Dawkins
5. Danny Ferry
4. Bobby Hurley
3. JJ Redick
2. Jay Williams
1. Christian Laettner

Bobby and Shelden are the only guys on that list not to be consensus NPOY. Makes me wonder a bit about ranking Bobby so highly.

Obviously, it is a completely subjective list and I'm not sure what criteria was used. For example, are we measuring total career or peak season? Shane was an ok, but not special player his first couple seasons and then got really good as a junior. His senior season was arguably the most complete season of any Duke player in history (Grant raises his hand in protest and puts forth his senior season for comparison, JJ laughs at both and merely says "26.8" before sitting down).

Does Elton get held back for only playing 2 years? What about JWill only playing 3 years?

I am glad the folks behind this list seem to have been able to ignore NBA success as a criteria. I think Danny often gets underrated due to that. He was a ridiculous college player, take it from a guy who sat in a bar to watch the Sunshine Network's, the only station covering the game, live broadcast the Duke-Miami game in 1988. 58 points... absurd!

-Jason "you need to watch this" Evans

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvPvBTIwkAM

cato
08-20-2015, 11:41 AM
The 21st century started on January 1, 2001, so it includes the entire century so far.

To resolve this debate, we need to refer to what people were saying in the 1st century. Anyone have any links to articles from January 1, 1?

duke blue brewcrew
08-20-2015, 12:00 PM
To resolve this debate, we need to refer to what people were saying in the 1st century. Anyone have any links to articles from January 1, 1?

Have you tried Google for this one? :p

NSDukeFan
08-20-2015, 12:06 PM
Have you tried Google for this one? :p

Pretty sure you had to use Netscape back then.

devildeac
08-20-2015, 12:38 PM
Pretty sure you had to use Netscape back then.

This might help:

5419


If not, one of the earlier versions of Juliovision might be useful;).

superdave
08-20-2015, 12:52 PM
Did Unc get any points for Harrison Barnes being pre-season 1st Team All-America twice?

luburch
08-20-2015, 12:59 PM
Pretty sure you had to use Netscape back then.

I should have an AOL disc around here somewhere that might do the trick.

Olympic Fan
08-20-2015, 02:11 PM
Bobby and Shelden are the only guys on that list not to be consensus NPOY. Makes me wonder a bit about ranking Bobby so highly.

Not to nit-pick, but Johnny Dawkins was not the consensus NPOY -- he won the Naismith Award in 1986 (which is a major NPOY Award), but that was the only one. Walter Berry of St. John's won every other NPOY and was the consensus NPOY. And Ferry shared the consensus NPOY honors with Sean Elliott of Arizona in 1989 -- each won three of the major NPOY awards that the NCAA used to determine consensus status (the awards that count towards consensus status change occasionally).

If I picked a top 10 under K, I'd reward the four-year guys and base it on their contribution at Duke:

1. Laettner
2. Dawkins
3. Battier
4. Grant Hill
5. Hurley
6. Ferry
7. Redick
8. Jason Williams
9. Shelden Williams
10. Brand

luburch
08-20-2015, 02:45 PM
I came across this today.
https://www.whatifsports.com/locker/simulations.shtm


It's a 'What-If' sports simulation that lets pick a year and a team and play it against anyone. I didn't see a description for how they determined a winner, but there may be one somewhere.

It's a fun website to kill some time on, if nothing else.

cptnflash
08-20-2015, 03:21 PM
Not to nit-pick, but Johnny Dawkins was not the consensus NPOY -- he won the Naismith Award in 1986 (which is a major NPOY Award), but that was the only one. Walter Berry of St. John's won every other NPOY and was the consensus NPOY. And Ferry shared the consensus NPOY honors with Sean Elliott of Arizona in 1989 -- each won three of the major NPOY awards that the NCAA used to determine consensus status (the awards that count towards consensus status change occasionally).

If I picked a top 10 under K, I'd reward the four-year guys and base it on their contribution at Duke:

1. Laettner
2. Dawkins
3. Battier
4. Grant Hill
5. Hurley
6. Ferry
7. Redick
8. Jason Williams
9. Shelden Williams
10. Brand

I agree with your approach, and as such, I just can't do a top 10 all time list without Kyle on it. 4-year player, Final 4 MOP, in the top 10 all time in just about every major statistical category, played more games as a Duke player than anyone ever, 125-23 overall record, 30-2 conference record at home, and had a winning record overall against UNC despite his career coinciding with the last time they were really good. I would put Kyle in at #9, bump Shelden to #10, and bump Elton off. I realize peak Kyle wasn't as dominant as peak Shelden or peak Brand, but for me it's all about area under the curve. No quarrels with the rest of your rankings, so my list would be:

1. Laettner
2. Dawkins
3. Battier
4. Grant Hill
5. Hurley
6. Ferry
7. Redick
8. Jason Williams
9. Kyle Singler
10. Shelden Williams

Edit: And he has to hold the all time record for most stitches in the face earned in the line of duty. That's gotta count for something.

duke blue brewcrew
08-20-2015, 03:26 PM
Not to nit-pick, but Johnny Dawkins was not the consensus NPOY -- he won the Naismith Award in 1986 (which is a major NPOY Award), but that was the only one. Walter Berry of St. John's won every other NPOY and was the consensus NPOY. And Ferry shared the consensus NPOY honors with Sean Elliott of Arizona in 1989 -- each won three of the major NPOY awards that the NCAA used to determine consensus status (the awards that count towards consensus status change occasionally).

If I picked a top 10 under K, I'd reward the four-year guys and base it on their contribution at Duke:

1. Laettner
2. Dawkins
3. Battier
4. Grant Hill
5. Hurley
6. Ferry
7. Redick
8. Jason Williams
9. Shelden Williams
10. Brand

I mostly agree with your post and player list/rankings. Without sounding like I'm trying to nitpick at your comment, I couldn't care less if Dawkins was a consensus NPOY. IF Dawkins had the benefit of a 3 point line, he would STILL be the all time scoring leader in Duke history. Additionally, when you speak of contributions to Duke, did anyone contribute more than Johnny D?! He got it all started for Coach K, and more importantly to me personally, was my childhood hero :)

Bluedog
08-20-2015, 05:15 PM
The 14 consensus First Team All-America selections under Coach K include:

Dawkins
Ferry
Laettner
Hurley
Hill
Brand
Carrawell
Battier
J Will
Redick
Shelden
Nolan
Jabari
Okafor

No love for Carrawell or Nolan...

(Not saying that this is the same as determining "best players under Coach K" though. Just interesting to look at to see who was perceived as being a one of the best contributors in the nation in a single given season -- note that Kyle unfortunately is not on the above list. He was the pre-season player of the year, though...)

sagegrouse
08-20-2015, 06:20 PM
The 14 consensus First Team All-America selections under Coach K include:

Dawkins
Ferry
Laettner
Hurley
Hill
Brand
Carrawell
Battier
J Will
Redick
Shelden
Nolan
Jabari
Okafor

No love for Carrawell or Nolan...

(Not saying that this is the same as determining "best players under Coach K" though. Just interesting to look at to see who was perceived as being a one of the best contributors in the nation in a single given season -- note that Kyle unfortunately is not on the above list. He was the pre-season player of the year, though...)

Interesting list of those who were two-time All-Americans (at least 2nd team consensus):
Dawkins
Ferry
Laettner
Hill
Battier
JWill
Redick

(To which we can add Groat, Heyman, Verga and Gminski)

Edouble
08-20-2015, 09:09 PM
The 14 consensus First Team All-America selections under Coach K include:

Dawkins
Ferry
Laettner
Hurley
Hill
Brand
Carrawell
Battier
J Will
Redick
Shelden
Nolan
Jabari
Okafor

No love for Carrawell or Nolan...

(Not saying that this is the same as determining "best players under Coach K" though. Just interesting to look at to see who was perceived as being a one of the best contributors in the nation in a single given season -- note that Kyle unfortunately is not on the above list. He was the pre-season player of the year, though...)

Needs some explanation.

Edouble
08-20-2015, 09:20 PM
Complaining about UConn's 2011 champion smacks of the same kind of sour grapes that we get from Kentucky fans -- two nights after Arizona dumped Duke in the Sweet 16, UConn knocked off the Wildcats.

And, El Diablo, totally disagree about the start oft the 21st Century .. Jan. 1, 2000 was the Y2K year. And, yes, I know there was never a year "0" ... but in point of fact, there was never a year "1" either ... the numerical year designations came much, much later.

Not complaining... just commenting on relative strength of NC teams. If jbay201 thinks that Kentucky 2012 squeaks by, I would point him to the two UConn teams, which I think were much weaker by comparison.

If you want complaining, check the post that I was commenting on in the first place.


UK failed to get it done the majority of time when it mattered in April with their only successful season coming with Anthony Davis and relatively weak overall field. As for UNC, they're NC count needs to be adjusted to 0 as well as FF to 0 as all those players were ineligible due to their scandal which knocks them out of the top 15.

It's weird for you to pick out my post for "complaining" but let this one slide right by.

JohnJ
08-21-2015, 09:01 AM
I mostly agree with your post and player list/rankings. Without sounding like I'm trying to nitpick at your comment, I couldn't care less if Dawkins was a consensus NPOY. IF Dawkins had the benefit of a 3 point line, he would STILL be the all time scoring leader in Duke history. Additionally, when you speak of contributions to Duke, did anyone contribute more than Johnny D?! He got it all started for Coach K, and more importantly to me personally, was my childhood hero :)

Dawkins DID actually have the benefit of 3pt shot duRing ACC play in 1982-83 making 19 of 54 shots.

Also, Bob Verga says hi and if only he was eligible as a freshman and had a 3 pt line no telling where he would have ended up. But I digress....

duke blue brewcrew
08-21-2015, 09:15 AM
Dawkins DID actually have the benefit of 3pt shot duRing ACC play in 1982-83 making 19 of 54 shots.

Also, Bob Verga says hi and if only he was eligible as a freshman and had a 3 pt line no telling where he would have ended up. But I digress....

OK fair enough, Dawkins had ONE year vs. JJ's FOUR...thanks for helping clarify my inaccuracy.

Bluedog
08-21-2015, 10:16 AM
The 14 consensus First Team All-America selections under Coach K include:

Dawkins
Ferry
Laettner
Hurley
Hill
Brand
Carrawell
Battier
J Will
Redick
Shelden
Nolan
Jabari
Okafor

No love for Carrawell or Nolan...

(Not saying that this is the same as determining "best players under Coach K" though. Just interesting to look at to see who was perceived as being a one of the best contributors in the nation in a single given season -- note that Kyle unfortunately is not on the above list. He was the pre-season player of the year, though...)


Needs some explanation.

Sorry for being unclear. I was saying there is no love for Carrawell HERE on this thread despite being one of only 14 players under Coach K to be a consensus First Team All-America. Same with Nolan. (He did get love at the time by the media/coaches for being on the list clearly). I guess it's because many fans value consistently high contributions over the course of four years rather than what somebody achieved at his apex (although Elton was only at Duke for 2 years and appears on many people's lists).

sagegrouse
08-21-2015, 10:27 AM
Interesting list of those who were two-time All-Americans (at least 2nd team consensus):
Dawkins
Ferry
Laettner
Hill
Battier
JWill
Redick

(To which we can add Groat, Heyman, Verga and Gminski)

Gee, whose jersey is not retired?

CDu
08-21-2015, 10:41 AM
Sorry for being unclear. I was saying there is no love for Carrawell HERE on this thread despite being one of only 14 players under Coach K to be a consensus First Team All-America. Same with Nolan. (He did get love at the time by the media/coaches for being on the list clearly). I guess it's because many fans value consistently high contributions over the course of four years rather than what somebody achieved at his apex (although Elton was only at Duke for 2 years and appears on many people's lists).

Carrawell gets dinged because he was a role player for 3 years and then really good (but on a team that overachieved in the regular season before an early tourney exit) for one year. Frankly, it's just hard to put him in a list of top-12 in the Coach K era based on that one year. Brand, who is on some folks' lists, had a better one year than Carrawell's best year. He also had a better best year than Smith (NPoY), which is why he gets on lists ahead of those two even though his career was shorter.

Smith is, in my opinion, a slightly more interesting case. Whereas Carrawell was generally a starter all four years, Smith was a reserve for most of his first two years at Duke. He then exploded with two really good years as an upperclassman. I would say that the apex of his career was better than Carrawell's, but Carrawell's overall body of work may have been as good. But again, his best two years don't quite match Elton's best two years.

Basically, when you have seven guys who won at least one NPoY honor and two guys (Battier obviously makes both lists, so eight total) who have won multiple NDPoY awards, and another guy who won NDPoY and came within an inch or two of winning three national championships, it's really hard to get much love on the "best of Coach K era" lists. There is only 1 spot in the top-10 available for players who didn't fit one of those categories above, and there are LOTS of good candidates.

Rich
08-21-2015, 11:29 AM
Have you tried Google for this one? :p

Here ya go -- http://bfy.tw/1Pgn

royalblue
08-21-2015, 02:57 PM
Grant Hill being #8 on the top 10 K player list is way off in my book. I'm not sure 1 player carried a Duke team any better than Hill in his final Duke season. He willed a team that was not that strong to play on Monday night and was a Scottie Thurman
3 pointer from having 3 rings and in the argument for greatest Duke player ever. I refuse to give the ST 3 the power of taking Grant from at least 2nd or 3rd to #8.
I would like to hear from some of the board visitors because I feel that is just too far off base.

Olympic Fan
08-21-2015, 03:09 PM
Grant Hill being #8 on the top 10 K player list is way off in my book. I'm not sure 1 player carried a Duke team any better than Hill in his final Duke season. He willed a team that was not that strong to play on Monday night and was a Scottie Thurman
3 pointer from having 3 rings and in the argument for greatest Duke player ever. I refuse to give the ST 3 the power of taking Grant from at least 2nd or 3rd to #8.
I would like to hear from some of the board visitors because I feel that is just too far off base.

I assume you are responding to the original Sporting News list, which was made by some 22-year-old fan boy. It's absurd -- picking JJ ahead of Johnny D, Grant or Battier, for instance, displays the lack of judgment and Duke basketball knowledge behind the list.

Read this thread ... no fan who has posted here had picked Grant lower than fifth. Personally, I picked Grant fourth ... he was certainly a key player in 1994. He did play a key role on two national title teams -- although to be fair, he was the No. 3 player on those two teams. Well, most of the time ... he stepped up late in the 1992 title game and made the difference. I still think the four-year contributions of Laettner, Dawkins and Battier were greater, but obviously, that's debatable.

luvdahops
08-21-2015, 03:41 PM
I assume you are responding to the original Sporting News list, which was made by some 22-year-old fan boy. It's absurd -- picking JJ ahead of Johnny D, Grant or Battier, for instance, displays the lack of judgment and Duke basketball knowledge behind the list.

Read this thread ... no fan who has posted here had picked Grant lower than fifth. Personally, I picked Grant fourth ... he was certainly a key player in 1994. He did play a key role on two national title teams -- although to be fair, he was the No. 3 player on those two teams. Well, most of the time ... he stepped up late in the 1992 title game and made the difference. I still think the four-year contributions of Laettner, Dawkins and Battier were greater, but obviously, that's debatable.

In my view, Grant should rank just behind Johnny D at #3, though not by much. I would disagree strongly with your assertion that Battier had a better four-year career. Grant was a star from the get-go, while Shane was a role player for his first 2 (maybe 2.5) years. I was at a dinner recently with Bob Hurley, Sr., and in his view, Grant's addition was far and away the biggest factor in Duke going from being hammered by UNLV in 1990 to knocking them off and winning the title in 1991. Hurley also said that, as great as Laettner and Bobby were, they never would have won titles without Grant. He was just that good and that versatile, and everyone associated with the program knew it right away. So saying he was the No. 3 player on those teams might be selling him short.

royalblue
08-21-2015, 05:25 PM
Grant in 94 is the only one of the those top players to really have a chance to carry a team on his back that did not have other great players with him that year good yes great no. Grant did put a muzzle on the big dog in the round of 8.If Lang just had not trimmed his nails that week.
21 years later and I still can not let go:)

duke blue brewcrew
08-21-2015, 06:11 PM
This is fun to watch! I forgot how much Dawkins loved the Reverse Jam. Such a crafty scorer, who in my opinion could do it all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y50kQ5GOROs

-jk
08-21-2015, 09:12 PM
This is fun to watch! I forgot how much Dawkins loved the Reverse Jam. Such a crafty scorer, who in my opinion could do it all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y50kQ5GOROs

Brings back memories: Short shorts! Sound baffles in Cameron! Flowy ball! Greensboro in Duke Blue! K with black hair! (Oh, wait...)

-jk