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Billy Dat
08-11-2015, 04:24 PM
http://dunk360.com/former-no-1-overall-pick-elton-brand-announces-retirement/

The first K "hardship" jump to the pros. You repped us well, Big E! $167MM in salary in the bank!

You repped your hometown, Peekiewood, to the max!

Olympic Fan
08-11-2015, 04:31 PM
http://dunk360.com/former-no-1-overall-pick-elton-brand-announces-retirement/

The first K "hardship" jump to the pros. You repped us well, Big E! $167MM in salary in the bank!

You repped your hometown, Peekiewood, to the max!

Is this an inside joke or did you just confuse his hometown's real name -- Peekskill, N.Y.?

I admit there may be a joke there that I'm missing.

Other than that, I agree with everything else. Classy guy who represented Duke well in the NBA.

Don't know if it happens, but soon after joining the Bulls, Brand said that one day, he'd like to return to Duke and get his degree. Wonder of that happens now?

If it does, I would suggest that soon after that happens, his number will be in the rafters.

CDu
08-11-2015, 04:33 PM
Is this an inside joke or did you just confuse his hometown's real name -- Peekskill, N.Y.?

I admit there may be a joke there that I'm missing.

Other than that, I agree with everything else. Classy guy who represented Duke well in the NBA.

Don't know if it happens, but soon after joining the Bulls, Brand said that one day, he'd like to return to Duke and get his degree. Wonder of that happens now?

If it does, I would suggest that soon after that happens, his number will be in the rafters.

I believe that Billy Dat is a New Yorker and well aware of Brand's hometown. And I suspect that it is a local's play on Hollywood.

alteran
08-11-2015, 04:33 PM
Is this an inside joke or did you just confuse his hometown's real name -- Peekskill, N.Y.?

I admit there may be a joke there that I'm missing.

Other than that, I agree with everything else. Classy guy who represented Duke well in the NBA.

Don't know if it happens, but soon after joining the Bulls, Brand said that one day, he'd like to return to Duke and get his degree. Wonder of that happens now?

Doesn't he have 2 years of eligibility left? :)

duke blue brewcrew
08-11-2015, 04:44 PM
http://dunk360.com/former-no-1-overall-pick-elton-brand-announces-retirement/

The first K "hardship" jump to the pros. You repped us well, Big E! $167MM in salary in the bank!

You repped your hometown, Peekiewood, to the max!

Seeing this reminds me of just how old I am. During my second attempt at college (not exactly the most focused student the first time around), I was fortunate enough to land an internship with a local TV station in W-S. I was afforded the opportunity to cover Duke often for both football and basketball. I remember it was Sr. Day for Trajan Langdon during Elton's So/Final year at Duke. Trajan was injured in that game thanks to a dirty elbow by Allenspach as we all remember. In the locker-room after the game, during the player interviews I had the chance to ask Elton if this was in effect, his Sr. Day as well? It was an EF Hutton moment...EVERYONE with a mic leaned in. He looked at me a little bewildered, and the lied right to my face and said he was coming back. LOL! I don't blame him, there was the entire post-season to play still and why would he want to deal with such distractions through it all? If feels like it wasn't THAT long ago, but apparently long enough for EB to have a long and successful career in the NBA. Good for him, and congrats on his retirement! He represented himself, his family, his fans and Duke University incredibly well. IMO he was the first consistently successful NBA big man to come out of Duke under Coach K. I think he helped begin to change that perception to some degree.

Billy Dat
08-11-2015, 04:49 PM
I believe that Billy Dat is a New Yorker and well aware of Brand's hometown. And I suspect that it is a local's play on Hollywood.

CDU, you wise dog. I hail from the same small city as Mr. Brand, also the birthplace of one of K's daughters (it's not far from West Point) and current Republican long shot/no shot, George Pataki.

BD80
08-11-2015, 05:08 PM
A Brand new day

Congrats

Blue in the Face
08-11-2015, 05:20 PM
CDU, you wise dog. I hail from the same small city as Mr. Brand, also the birthplace of one of K's daughters (it's not far from West Point) and current Republican long shot/no shot, George Pataki.
Brand went to school with Pataki's daughter, and knew their family pretty well. I was at a Ranger game in the spring of 1997 sitting across the aisle from Pataki, and at one point had a chance to talk with him and mentioned that I was a Duke fan and was excited about the big recruit coming in from his hometown. He just lit up, and absolutely gushed about what a great kid Elton was, and how sure he was that everyone at Duke would just love him. It was pretty neat seeing the politician facade he had on as he saw me step over towards him simply dissolve when I mentioned Elton, and he became a genuine guy talking about someone he had real affection for.

Edouble
08-11-2015, 05:35 PM
Is this an inside joke or did you just confuse his hometown's real name -- Peekskill, N.Y.?

I admit there may be a joke there that I'm missing.

Other than that, I agree with everything else. Classy guy who represented Duke well in the NBA.

Don't know if it happens, but soon after joining the Bulls, Brand said that one day, he'd like to return to Duke and get his degree. Wonder of that happens now?

If it does, I would suggest that soon after that happens, his number will be in the rafters.

In an interview in Slam magazine shortly after Elton joined the Bulls, he said that he had no intention of getting his degree. I am having trouble finding it online, but he said something to the effect that Johnny Dawkins (then the Associate Head Coach) kept calling him to talk about coming back for classes during the summers, but he thought that the Duke staff knew it was a lost cause.

I'd be shocked if he came back for a degree. The guy is in his mid-30s with a family and many interests outside of basketball.

johnb
08-11-2015, 06:27 PM
Elton is one of my all time favorite Duke players. He did things his way, including dominate games with a style that I haven't seen duplicated. He just seemed to squash opponents during that season of domination.

Congrats to him.

BluePanda
08-11-2015, 07:21 PM
If I retire with anywhere within a magnitude of Brand's career earnings, I'll consider it a successful career. Congrats to Elton and hope he enjoys his retirement.

Neals384
08-11-2015, 08:16 PM
...lied right to my face and said he was coming back. LOL! I don't blame him, there was the entire post-season to play still and why would he want to deal with such distractions through it all?

Gosh, isn't it possible that he was telling the truth at the time and changed his mind later?

Dukehky
08-11-2015, 09:36 PM
His sophomore season was arguably the most dominant season ever had by a Duke player. He got triple teamed regularly and still scored. Absolutely incredible college player, and a very, very good pro. Worthy of the number 1 selection. People don't realize how good a pro he was. He led the league in offensive rebounding like 3 years in a row and averaged 20 and 10 in a bunch of seasons. Had he stayed with the Clippers after getting Baron Davis (good Baron Davis) to sign instead of jumping to the Sixers, we could have seen him on some adequate teams, which would have enhanced his perception.

Nicest dude too. I remember when he straight blasted that girl who wrote him about "representing Duke" and how she was disappointed in how he represented Duke when he said he would not be returning to school. He may have turned his back a bit on some of the University (been there, my friend), but never on the basketball program.

Olympic Fan
08-11-2015, 10:49 PM
His sophomore season was arguably the most dominant season ever had by a Duke player. He got triple teamed regularly and still scored. Absolutely incredible college player, and a very, very good pro. Worthy of the number 1 selection. People don't realize how good a pro he was. He led the league in offensive rebounding like 3 years in a row and averaged 20 and 10 in a bunch of seasons. Had he stayed with the Clippers after getting Baron Davis (good Baron Davis) to sign instead of jumping to the Sixers, we could have seen him on some adequate teams, which would have enhanced his perception.

Nicest dude too. I remember when he straight blasted that girl who wrote him about "representing Duke" and how she was disappointed in how he represented Duke when he said he would not be returning to school. He may have turned his back a bit on some of the University (been there, my friend), but never on the basketball program.

I don't buy that at all. Brand had a great sophomore season. but he started slow (remember he lost his starting job briefly in December... coming off the bench to win it back in a game against Kentucky in the Meadowlands just before Christmas) and finished with a less-than-strong game against UConn in the national title game. I didn't see all the triple teams -- he played on one of the strongest, deepest Duke team ever. To triple team Brand, you would have had to leave two of Battier, Carrawell, Langdon or Avery ... or maybe Maggette.

I think two years after Brand, Battier had a greater season -- he scored more, rebounded almost as well, had significantly more assists and steals and slightly more blocked shots. Battier shot 44.4 percent from the 3-point line and was the nation's defensive player of the year (as well as the consensus national player of the year). And unlike Brand, Battier elevated his game to win the national championship.

And I would argue that Laettner had better seasons in 1991 and 1992.

Again, Brand has a great season in 1999 ... but the greatest ever -- no way.

BD80
08-12-2015, 11:05 AM
I don't buy that at all. Brand had a great sophomore season. but he started slow (remember he lost his starting job briefly in December... coming off the bench to win it back in a game against Kentucky in the Meadowlands just before Christmas) and finished with a less-than-strong game against UConn in the national title game. I didn't see all the triple teams -- he played on one of the strongest, deepest Duke team ever. To triple team Brand, you would have had to leave two of Battier, Carrawell, Langdon or Avery ... or maybe Maggette.

I think two years after Brand, Battier had a greater season -- he scored more, rebounded almost as well, had significantly more assists and steals and slightly more blocked shots. Battier shot 44.4 percent from the 3-point line and was the nation's defensive player of the year (as well as the consensus national player of the year). And unlike Brand, Battier elevated his game to win the national championship.

And I would argue that Laettner had better seasons in 1991 and 1992.

Again, Brand has a great season in 1999 ... but the greatest ever -- no way.

OF kicks the kittens Kedsy can't catch

duke blue brewcrew
08-12-2015, 01:02 PM
Gosh, isn't it possible that he was telling the truth at the time and changed his mind later?

To your point, at that time he had not been named the NPOY for college basketball, but I'm sure information had begun to trickle in about where he would eventually be drafted...#1 overall. No one knows what he knew & when, except for Elton and his inner circle. Either way, I hold no grudges and find it to be a funny story. Even if he did know, why would he say then? It would be nothing but a distraction as he prepares for his final post-season at Duke. Elton is easily in my Top 10 all time favorite players at Duke. I'm happy he's had a successful career and I hope he has an enjoyable retirement and finds success in whatever he decides to tackle next.

kAzE
08-12-2015, 01:40 PM
Great player. Great career. Proud that he is a fellow Dukie.

Edouble
08-12-2015, 03:20 PM
I don't buy that at all. Brand had a great sophomore season. but he started slow (remember he lost his starting job briefly in December... coming off the bench to win it back in a game against Kentucky in the Meadowlands just before Christmas) and finished with a less-than-strong game against UConn in the national title game. I didn't see all the triple teams -- he played on one of the strongest, deepest Duke team ever. To triple team Brand, you would have had to leave two of Battier, Carrawell, Langdon or Avery ... or maybe Maggette.

I think two years after Brand, Battier had a greater season -- he scored more, rebounded almost as well, had significantly more assists and steals and slightly more blocked shots. Battier shot 44.4 percent from the 3-point line and was the nation's defensive player of the year (as well as the consensus national player of the year). And unlike Brand, Battier elevated his game to win the national championship.

And I would argue that Laettner had better seasons in 1991 and 1992.

Again, Brand has a great season in 1999 ... but the greatest ever -- no way.

Tried to spork you, but couldn't.

Agree with all this. I'll never get the Brand love and the McRoberts animosity from some on this board.

I'd put Jahlil's season this past year above Brand's sophomore campaign in terms of dominance. Not to mention the final seasons by at least 75% of the players whose jerseys hang in the rafters. Brand had a great sophomore season, but there were no triple teams and no level of dominance that we haven't seen surpassed by other players. Brand's inability to handle a double team in the Championship game was part of why we lost.

vick
08-12-2015, 03:57 PM
Tried to spork you, but couldn't.

Agree with all this. I'll never get the Brand love and the McRoberts animosity from some on this board.

I'd put Jahlil's season this past year above Brand's sophomore campaign in terms of dominance. Not to mention the final seasons by at least 75% of the players whose jerseys hang in the rafters. Brand had a great sophomore season, but there were no triple teams and no level of dominance that we haven't seen surpassed by other players. Brand's inability to handle a double team in the Championship game was part of why we lost.

The strange McRoberts animosity I agree with you on, but don't buy Okafor over Brand. Brand was a significantly more efficient offensive player, with a higher true shooting percentage (missing free throws hurts!) and turning the ball over far less than Okafor. Even focused solely on offense Brand was probably better as a sophomore than Okafor last year--and I cannot imagine anyone saying he was not a better defender.

gus
08-13-2015, 11:02 AM
One nit I'll post here from the front page article:

Elton is not a "former" Blue Devil.

cato
08-13-2015, 12:28 PM
The strange McRoberts animosity I agree with you on, but don't buy Okafor over Brand. Brand was a significantly more efficient offensive player, with a higher true shooting percentage (missing free throws hurts!) and turning the ball over far less than Okafor. Even focused solely on offense Brand was probably better as a sophomore than Okafor last year--and I cannot imagine anyone saying he was not a better defender.

Further, Elton was a more important recruit. That was a time that Duke had slipped -- seriously. The Killa Bs (well, two of them, anyway) brought Duke back to the top of the game, setting the stage for K's second act.

JD is no longer the best player that K recruited, but he will always be the most important. Elton is right up there.

Mike Corey
08-13-2015, 01:14 PM
Further, Elton was a more important recruit. That was a time that Duke had slipped -- seriously. The Killa Bs (well, two of them, anyway) brought Duke back to the top of the game, setting the stage for K's second act.

JD is no longer the best player that K recruited, but he will always be the most important. Elton is right up there.

Completely agreed.

And he was still one of the better ones to come through--and of course, after.

Brand was a terrific post player for us, and an above average NBA performer for most of his 16 years in the league.

In his best year in the league, he put up 24.7 ppg and 10 rpg in 2005-06, one of the better seasons for a Blue Devil in the pros.

Grant Hill had a season with 25.8 ppg and 6.6 rpg. I'm not sure anyone else can top Brand's season.

devildeac
08-13-2015, 01:24 PM
Completely agreed.

And he was still one of the better ones to come through--and of course, after.

Brand was a terrific post player for us, and an above average NBA performer for most of his 16 years in the league.

In his best year in the league, he put up 24.7 ppg and 10 rpg in 2005-06, one of the better seasons for a Blue Devil in the pros.

Grant Hill had a season with 25.8 ppg and 6.6 rpg. I'm not sure anyone else can top Brand's season.


'Los comes close:

06/07: 11.7 rpg/20.9 ppg
07/08: 10.4 rpg/21.1 ppg
09/10: 11.2 rpg/19.5 ppg

But you're correct that (probably) no one can top Brand's season from the Duke stable of players.

cato
08-13-2015, 04:47 PM
'Los comes close:

06/07: 11.7 rpg/20.9 ppg
07/08: 10.4 rpg/21.1 ppg
09/10: 11.2 rpg/19.5 ppg

But you're correct that (probably) no one can top Brand's season from the Duke stable of players.

The Brand, Boozer recruiting streak was a special one.

I'm biased, though. They might be my favorite two Blue Devils, Grant Hill excepted.

devildeac
08-13-2015, 05:03 PM
The Brand, Boozer recruiting streak was a special one.

I'm biased, though. They might be my favorite two Blue Devils, Grant Hill excepted.

Shane and G. Hill for me. And JD and J. Williams. I guess that makes my four favorite two Blue Devils:o.

luvdahops
08-13-2015, 05:14 PM
Completely agreed.

And he was still one of the better ones to come through--and of course, after.

Brand was a terrific post player for us, and an above average NBA performer for most of his 16 years in the league.

In his best year in the league, he put up 24.7 ppg and 10 rpg in 2005-06, one of the better seasons for a Blue Devil in the pros.

Grant Hill had a season with 25.8 ppg and 6.6 rpg. I'm not sure anyone else can top Brand's season.

I'd say Grant had several that could compare with Elton's best, notably 1996-97, when he put up 21.4 ppg, 9.0 rpg, 7.3 apg, 1.8 spg, 49.6 FG% and 2.3:1 A/TO. 1st team All-NBA, led the league in triple doubles. Worth noting that no one has averaged 20 / 9 / 7 in a season since.

Mike Corey
08-13-2015, 10:43 PM
I'd say Grant had several that could compare with Elton's best, notably 1996-97, when he put up 21.4 ppg, 9.0 rpg, 7.3 apg, 1.8 spg, 49.6 FG% and 2.3:1 A/TO. 1st team All-NBA, led the league in triple doubles. Worth noting that no one has averaged 20 / 9 / 7 in a season since.

You're absolutely right.

Edouble
08-14-2015, 12:28 AM
Further, Elton was a more important recruit. That was a time that Duke had slipped -- seriously. The Killa Bs (well, two of them, anyway) brought Duke back to the top of the game, setting the stage for K's second act.

JD is no longer the best player that K recruited, but he will always be the most important. Elton is right up there.

Brand a more important recruit than Okafor? If I had to give up one, I'd give up Brand. Without Okafor, there's no NC. It's also too early to really say. We have not had an elite post player before Okafor in a long, long time. Perhaps his development at Duke will snowball into Duke becoming the premier destination for post players...

I get what you're saying, that at that time we were returning to an elite level with recruits, but Brand was just one of a number of very high level recruits that were got in the stable around that time. Without Brand, we still would have had the nucleus for our 2001 NC. Burgess and Battier were absolutely huge, elite recruits. Brand had a late surge and may have been ranked higher towards the final rankings, but throughout most of the recruiting, those three recruits were equally elite and coveted.

BobbyFan
08-14-2015, 08:30 AM
The strange McRoberts animosity I agree with you on, but don't buy Okafor over Brand. Brand was a significantly more efficient offensive player, with a higher true shooting percentage (missing free throws hurts!) and turning the ball over far less than Okafor. Even focused solely on offense Brand was probably better as a sophomore than Okafor last year--and I cannot imagine anyone saying he was not a better defender.

Yeah, I don't know why Okafor was brought into this. And I'm not sure if this has become a widespread myth, but the criticism of his title game performance versus UConn is absurd - he put up 15 and 13 while facing hard doubles all night. In employing the strategy, Calhoun was banking on Battier not being able to capitalize on his opportunities offensively, and he was right; it also helped that Avery had a poor game against a weak defender. Those, along with our perimeter defense, are far more appropriate reasons as to why we lost.

Brand was big time, and that became apparent early in his freshman season when he showed himself to be the jewel of the acclaimed '97 recruiting class. His sophomore year, in winning NPOY on one of the greatest teams in the modern era, was absolutely one of the great single seasons in Duke history. A dominant post player who we ran our offense through, while quietly played excellent defense. I'd take Laettner and Hill in their senior seasons over him; after that it's debatable.

In the NBA, he consistently flew under the radar, which will be even more so in the years following his retirement. But he was one of the better post players in the league while expanding his range, and continued to play very good defense. In his prime, he was in a class of power forwards that would include Bosh, Kemp, Griffin, and Webber. His Achilles injury is what threw his career off of the HOF track.

superdave
08-14-2015, 08:53 AM
I'd say Grant had several that could compare with Elton's best, notably 1996-97, when he put up 21.4 ppg, 9.0 rpg, 7.3 apg, 1.8 spg, 49.6 FG% and 2.3:1 A/TO. 1st team All-NBA, led the league in triple doubles. Worth noting that no one has averaged 20 / 9 / 7 in a season since.

I have one thing to say about the Detroit Pistons, who screwed up Hill's ankle: @$&@$%&

CDu
08-14-2015, 10:27 AM
I'd say Grant had several that could compare with Elton's best, notably 1996-97, when he put up 21.4 ppg, 9.0 rpg, 7.3 apg, 1.8 spg, 49.6 FG% and 2.3:1 A/TO. 1st team All-NBA, led the league in triple doubles. Worth noting that no one has averaged 20 / 9 / 7 in a season since.

Yeah, comparing Hill's stats to Brand's stats on points and rebounds alone is going to shortchange Hill. Hill was a SF, whereas Brand was a PF/C. So Brand was expected to get more rebounds. Hill's best season ('97, as you noted) was better than Brand's best ('06). Hill also had 4 other seasons ('96, '98, '99, '00) about as good as Brand's best, which is reflected in his one 1st Team All-NBA and four 2nd Team All-NBA honors compared to Brand's one 2nd Team honor.

Brand was a really really good player who had one elite season along with several really really good seasons. Hill was an elite player.

As a Bulls fan, I still hate that Krause traded Brand for Tyson Chandler. Brand had just had two 20 ppg, 10 rpg seasons in his first two seasons. Yet Krause (ever the scout) fell in love with the Curry/Chandler pairing. Well, Chandler took several years to find his game (he never developed the offensive game he supposedly flashed as a high schooler, but eventually became a defensive menace for a decade) and Curry never developed. By the time Chandler finally found his stride, the Bulls let him go and picked up the declining Ben Wallace. Yuck! Just a series of dumb, dumb moves in the early/mid-'00s. But the Brand one really hurt. I was thrilled when we drafted him, as he began the Duke-to-Chicago connection that would span even to this day with Dunleavy. So sad when he was sent away.

sagegrouse
08-14-2015, 10:39 AM
And I'm not sure if this has become a widespread myth, but the criticism of his title game performance versus UConn is absurd - he put up 15 and 13 while facing hard doubles all night. In employing the strategy, Calhoun was banking on Battier not being able to capitalize on his opportunities offensively, and he was right; it also helped that Avery had a poor game against a weak defender. Those, along with our perimeter defense, are far more appropriate reasons as to why we lost.

Brand was big time, and that became apparent early in his freshman season when he showed himself to be the jewel of the acclaimed '97 recruiting class. His sophomore year, in winning NPOY on one of the greatest teams in the modern era, was absolutely one of the great single seasons in Duke history. A dominant post player who we ran our offense through, while quietly played excellent defense. I'd take Laettner and Hill in their senior seasons over him; after that it's debatable.

In the NBA, he consistently flew under the radar, which will be even more so in the years following his retirement. But he was one of the better post players in the league while expanding his range, and continued to play very good defense. In his prime, he was in a class of power forwards that would include Bosh, Kemp, Griffin, and Webber. His Achilles injury is what threw his career off of the HOF track.

What I observed in St. Pete was that Brand would not pass out of the double (and triple) teams.

In the league, his best years were with the Clips -- not good for national attention -- wrong time zone, wrong LA team -- although the Clippers finally made the playoffs in 2006. His first eight years (starting with two in Chicago), he averaged 20.3/10.2 in 38 minutes per game. After his injury, his four years with the 76ers produced 13.3/7.4 in 31.5 MPG. He went from outstanding to relatively average for a starting PF. Too bad -- an injury-free career would have produced HOF numbers.

Kindly,
Sage

CDu
08-14-2015, 10:53 AM
What I observed in St. Pete was that Brand would not pass out of the double (and triple) teams.

Brand shot 5-8 from the field and 5-8 from the line in that game. So if he wasn't passing out of the double team, that didn't seem to be a bad decision on his part. He was still really really effective, scoring almost 2 points per FGA. But given how few shots he took, I don't think failing to pass was the problem.

We had three guys play well in that game: Langdon (25 points on 7-15 shooting, 3 steals); Brand (15 points on 5-8 shooting, 13 rebounds, 2 blocks, 2 steals); and Maggette (8 points in 11 minutes). I think we lost because Avery (3-12 from the field), Battier (2-7 despite basically not being guarded), and Carrawell (4 turnovers) played poorly.

COYS
08-14-2015, 11:10 AM
Yeah, comparing Hill's stats to Brand's stats on points and rebounds alone is going to shortchange Hill. Hill was a SF, whereas Brand was a PF/C. So Brand was expected to get more rebounds. Hill's best season ('97, as you noted) was better than Brand's best ('06). Hill also had 4 other seasons ('96, '98, '99, '00) about as good as Brand's best, which is reflected in his one 1st Team All-NBA and four 2nd Team All-NBA honors compared to Brand's one 2nd Team honor.



Brand was amazing, but I agree with this. I think people forget that if Grant had not had the injury problems, he would easily be regarded as a top five player for the decade from 95-2004. If I were putting an All-NBA starting five together from that stretch and could pick Grant's healthy years I'd probably put Shaq at C, Duncan at PF, Grant at SF, Jordan at SG, and Stockton at PG. That's how good he was in his prime. Lebron would eclipse Grant, obviously, but for that stretch, you could argue that a healthy Grant was the single best small forward in the game. He was and still remains Duke's only player to achieve superstardom, even if it was short-lived.

luvdahops
08-14-2015, 12:24 PM
Yeah, comparing Hill's stats to Brand's stats on points and rebounds alone is going to shortchange Hill. Hill was a SF, whereas Brand was a PF/C. So Brand was expected to get more rebounds. Hill's best season ('97, as you noted) was better than Brand's best ('06). Hill also had 4 other seasons ('96, '98, '99, '00) about as good as Brand's best, which is reflected in his one 1st Team All-NBA and four 2nd Team All-NBA honors compared to Brand's one 2nd Team honor.

Brand was a really really good player who had one elite season along with several really really good seasons. Hill was an elite player.

As a Bulls fan, I still hate that Krause traded Brand for Tyson Chandler. Brand had just had two 20 ppg, 10 rpg seasons in his first two seasons. Yet Krause (ever the scout) fell in love with the Curry/Chandler pairing. Well, Chandler took several years to find his game (he never developed the offensive game he supposedly flashed as a high schooler, but eventually became a defensive menace for a decade) and Curry never developed. By the time Chandler finally found his stride, the Bulls let him go and picked up the declining Ben Wallace. Yuck! Just a series of dumb, dumb moves in the early/mid-'00s. But the Brand one really hurt. I was thrilled when we drafted him, as he began the Duke-to-Chicago connection that would span even to this day with Dunleavy. So sad when he was sent away.

Could not agree more. I would like to believe the Bulls' current front office is demonstrably better, but I have my doubts.

sagegrouse
08-14-2015, 12:32 PM
Brand shot 5-8 from the field and 5-8 from the line in that game. So if he wasn't passing out of the double team, that didn't seem to be a bad decision on his part. He was still really really effective, scoring almost 2 points per FGA. But given how few shots he took, I don't think failing to pass was the problem.

We had three guys play well in that game: Langdon (25 points on 7-15 shooting, 3 steals); Brand (15 points on 5-8 shooting, 13 rebounds, 2 blocks, 2 steals); and Maggette (8 points in 11 minutes). I think we lost because Avery (3-12 from the field), Battier (2-7 despite basically not being guarded), and Carrawell (4 turnovers) played poorly.

CDu, I think you are just reading the stat sheets, which don't lie but can be misleading. You will note that Brand had "zero" assists in the game, despite having loads of touches. Brand looked totally lost in double teams, and Duke failed to capitalize. You were just into HS, I think. Did you even watch the game?

CDu
08-14-2015, 12:49 PM
CDu, I think you are just reading the stat sheets, which don't lie but can be misleading. You will note that Brand had "zero" assists in the game, despite having loads of touches. Brand looked totally lost in double teams, and Duke failed to capitalize. You were just into HS, I think. Did you even watch the game?

I would say that stats are usually less misleading than the eye test - especially the recollection of an eye test from viewing in a large dome 16 years ago. Brand may have had trouble making good passes out of the double team, but the fact is that he was extremely efficient offensively, in spite of the double teams. I'd argue that we should have gone to him even more than we did, considering that (even accounting for turnovers) he was averaging basically 1.5 points per FGA. Compare that to guys like Avery, Battier, and Carrawell, and I have trouble buying an argument that Brand's inability to pass out of the double team was the big problem.

That said, I'm going to rewatch the game and see if my opinion changes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdKXsMKG4v4

FYI - I think you may have my age pegged a bit off. I was a sophomore at Duke in 1999, and watched that game in Cameron. Saddest walk/bus ride ever all the way back to Trent.

CDu
08-14-2015, 02:12 PM
Just rewatched the game. I stand by my previous assessment. Respectfully, I think maybe the time passed has colored your judgement of that game, sage.

Through the first half, he's had the following touches:
- posted up but got the shot knocked away by Voskuhl out of bounds
- posted, spun into the lane and kicked it out to Langdon (who drew the foul on Moore's late closeout)
- gets the ball at the 3pt line on the break, passes to a cutting Maggette who gets blocked at the rim
- bad entry pass into 3 defenders, Brand never gets the ball
- gets an offensive rebound in traffic, stumbles coming down and loses the ball to Moore
- faced up Voskuhl and drove around him drawing a foul
- gets a defensive rebound in traffic, is trapped immediately by both bigs, Duke's guards don't show to help him, he gets stripped from behind
- posted low, kicked it back out to Avery, who re-entered to Brand who drew a shooting foul
- posted, spun to his left but missed Langdon and instead passed out to Avery who drew the foul
- posted, missed a ~5-footer on the right block
- gets an offensive rebound in traffic, puts it back successfully
- gets the ball on the left block is immediately doubled, kicks it right back out to Maggette, who gets his shot blocked
- gets the ball on baseline off an Avery drive, goes up over/through Wane for a layup
- makes a great pass to Battier who is open under the rim... Battier misses the layup
- drives baseline, gets trapped, found Langdon curling down along the 3pt line, Langdon squares up, hits a 3 and draws the foul.

So far, Brand's passing out of double teams has been an issue on one possession (he missed the open man) but we drew a foul immediately anyway as UConn tried to recover. The real issue was Ricky Moore having the first half of his life and Duke's perimeter guys (except Langdon) playing really poorly. And UConn is dominating the glass. Brand had 5 points on 4 shots so far, and a bunch of rebounds.

In the second half:
- gets the ball on the baseline, kicks it back to the perimeter to Carrawell who swings it to Langdon for the 3 (hockey assist for Brand)
- gets an easy two off a drive from Avery
- gets the ball in HEAVY traffic (dangerous pass), still draws the shooting foul
- entry pass doesn't quite get to Brand as Wane fouls him over the back
- great pass by Langdon, gets fouled going to the rim
- gets the ball on the block, the double doesn't come fast enough, Brand scores and draws the foul
- Brand blocks a shot, sprints down, gets the pass from Avery for a breakaway layup
- Brand strips the ball at half court, gets fouled
- Gets the ball on the block, Voskuhl fouls him from behind (even Billy Packer was calling for the foul), but no call
- Gets the ball in the lane, kicks the ball to a wide open Battier, who misses the 3

Almost every time Brand got the ball in the post, Duke scored or drew a foul (or missed a wide open look). He played a really good game. In this case, I think the stats pretty accurately tell the story of his performance.

The reasons we lost are (in no particular order):
- Carrawell and Avery were awful. I can't say enough how poorly they played in this game. Bad decisions, and bad execution.
- Moore was amazing offensively in the first half, Hamilton was amazing offensively in the second half
- Duke got killed on the glass, as nobody gave Brand much help on the boards
- I actually do think fatigue played in. UConn made a big run midway through the second half to push out to a comfy lead, and our starters looked gassed. Especially, Brand, as UConn liberally subbed 4 bigs on him, while Brand played 38 minutes (nearly the entire second half). Brand didn't score or get a rebound at all in the last 6-7 minutes. He was gassed... Coach K just didn't trust Burgess enough to give Brand any rest, and Duke's guards (other than Langdon) just didn't play well enough to make UConn pay for the overplay
- UConn made a concerted effort to make it difficult to get Brand the ball. They dared Duke's guards/wings to make plays. And aside from Langdon, Duke's perimeter guys failed to deliver.

I can't state enough how good Hamilton was in the second half of that game. He just couldn't miss. And as great a game as Langdon had, he picked a bad time to try to take Ricky Moore one-on-one with under 10 seconds left. :(

I'm very angry at you for leading me to re-watch that game, sage :)

David Bunkley
08-14-2015, 02:25 PM
I have one thing to say about the Detroit Pistons, who screwed up Hill's ankle: @$&@$%&

I would argue that it was Fila that is more to blame than the Pistons. Had Grant signed with Nike, they'd have built the shoe around his needs like they've done with several players over the years, including Kyrie.

MChambers
08-14-2015, 02:29 PM
I would say that stats are usually less misleading than the eye test - especially the recollection of an eye test from viewing in a large dome 16 years ago. Brand may have had trouble making good passes out of the double team, but the fact is that he was extremely efficient offensively, in spite of the double teams. I'd argue that we should have gone to him even more than we did, considering that (even accounting for turnovers) he was averaging basically 1.5 points per FGA. Compare that to guys like Avery, Battier, and Carrawell, and I have trouble buying an argument that Brand's inability to pass out of the double team was the big problem.

That said, I'm going to rewatch the game and see if my opinion changes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdKXsMKG4v4

FYI - I think you may have my age pegged a bit off. I was a sophomore at Duke in 1999, and watched that game in Cameron. Saddest walk/bus ride ever all the way back to Trent.
My memory is that the double team really stymied Brand, and he didn't do a good job of passing out of it. It's also true that Battier's offense disappeared in that game. Worse than that, we couldn't stop the pick and roll.

Let us know what watching a replay tells you. I can't bring myself to do it.

CDu
08-14-2015, 02:45 PM
My memory is that the double team really stymied Brand, and he didn't do a good job of passing out of it. It's also true that Battier's offense disappeared in that game. Worse than that, we couldn't stop the pick and roll.

Let us know what watching a replay tells you. I can't bring myself to do it.

See my post above. And yes, I need a drink now after watching it again. I would agree that the double team stymied Brand, but for a different reason. UConn just made it really hard for Duke to throw the entry pass, so Brand didn't get a ton of touches. But when he did get the ball, he was pretty effective. There were maybe a couple of times (one time definitely) that he failed to identify the appropriate guy to kick it to, but strangely enough each time resulted in a positive outcome anyway. He also identified the right man at least twice in which the right man (sadly, in both cases Battier) missed a wide open shot. But he really didn't have that many touches, and the vast majority of his touches in the post produced a positive result.

The real problem was that UConn's defense forced Brand to work much harder, and he seemed to run out of gas down the stretch (really wasn't involved in the final minutes). He played 38 minutes - 10 more than Voskuhl - and those were HARD minutes. That, and our perimeter guys just didn't do a good job of making UConn pay for their strategy on Brand. But I really didn't see much more Brand could have done in that game. He was terrific.

Billy Dat
08-14-2015, 02:54 PM
I'm very angry at you for leading me to re-watch that game, sage :)

This is also my most hated game in Duke history and I could never bring myself to watch it.

Since you just did...

I recall Calhoun being pretty masterful at running high ball screens to get the switches they wanted and their offense just killing ours. True?

If K could coach that game again, I wonder what he'd do differently?

Steven43
08-14-2015, 03:12 PM
Shane and G. Hill for me. And JD and J. Williams. I guess that makes my four favorite two Blue Devils:o.

All great Blue Devils to be sure, as are all the others that have been mentioned in this thread. However, my favorite will always be Kyle Singler. If that guy does not personify EVERYTHING that Coach K would ever want in a basketball player and college student, then I don't know who possibly could. Has anyone ever played harder or been more of a warrior than Kyle Singler? LOVE that guy.

CDu
08-14-2015, 03:19 PM
I recall Calhoun being pretty masterful at running high ball screens to get the switches they wanted and their offense just killing ours. True?

I was mostly watching for the offensive end, so I don't have as clear a focus on the other end. They definitely ran a bunch of high ball screens to get El Amin on Brand (Duke was all about switching on ball screens). Brand did a solid job early on. But as the game wore on he did struggle with it. It was a good strategy by Calhoun, though, to make Brand guard 15-20 feet from the basket a lot. That probably helped to wear him down.

But a big part of what was working in the first half was Ricky Moore beating Avery off the dribble. And in the second half, Hamilton caught fire and hit jumper after jumper after jumper. He was amazing in that second half.


If K could coach that game again, I wonder what he'd do differently?

That's a tough question. I wonder if he'd have considered the idea of resting Brand a bit more. Brand was nonexistent over the final 6 minutes or so of the game, and I have to believe that was fatigue. UConn used 3-4 guys playing physically making it hard for Brand to get good post position. And as you noted, they got him involved in plenty of high ball screens too.

One thing I might have done would have been to call a timeout when we got the ball down 1 with ~15-20 seconds left. Instead, we got a Trajan Langdon iso on Ricky Moore (hands-down the best on-ball perimeter defender in the game for either team). That's not a winning play. But the problem is that our other two ballhandlers (Avery and Carrawell) had been awful that night, so maybe trusting them to run a play for Brand or Langdon wasn't going to succeed anyway.

The big problems we had though were primarily execution issues rather than strategic issues. UConn hit over 50% of their shots, with their guards faring especially well: Hamilton going 10-22, El-Amin going 5-12 (though he did have 6 turnovers), Moore going 6-10, and Mouring going 3-4. Our guards didn't fair so well: Avery shot 3-12, Battier was 2-7, Carrawell was 3-7 but with 4 turnovers, Maggette was 3-7 but with 2 turnovers in 8 minutes, only Langdon shot well at 7-15. That, and UConn dominated the glass on both ends, with a 37.5% offensive rebound % and a 78.8% defensive rebound %.

The shooting issues are just a bad shooting night. The rebounding issues were always a potential issue, as Coach K didn't really like to play big and Battier wasn't a strong rebounder from the PF spot (and UConn was a big, physical team).

Maybe Coach could have worked some more off-ball screening (one of the times Wheat's suggestion might have made sense) to get Brand more looks inside. Maybe he could have used Brand more as a high ball screener (pretty much every trip down involved Brand posting) to save Brand's legs a bit and to give Avery some easier driving opportunities. That's about it though.

Billy Dat
08-14-2015, 03:35 PM
Thanks for the well-reasoned take, CDu. I loved that team so much, as I am sure you did. 1986 and 1999 have to be the most painful K era Final Four defeats. History would regard both of those teams quite differently had they won - both would have warranted top 10 consideration.

Norman Pfyster
08-14-2015, 03:58 PM
I've always thought that the biggest factor in the 1999 final was who we played in the semi-final. Duke was definitely fatigued in the final in large part, IMHO, because we had played MSU in the semi-final. MSU was an extremely physical team. If UConn had played MSU, I think the outcome would have been different.

If I had to pick one thing for Coach K to have done differently, it would have been to have Maggette drive to the basket on every play, since the refs were not calling charges.

CDu
08-14-2015, 04:04 PM
Thanks for the well-reasoned take, CDu. I loved that team so much, as I am sure you did. 1986 and 1999 have to be the most painful K era Final Four defeats. History would regard both of those teams quite differently had they won - both would have warranted top 10 consideration.

No problem! (well, aside from having watched that game... yuck!) Yeah, the 1999 team was certainly up there for me. They were just silly-good for so much of the season. The regular season was a joke. We beat Maryland (who went 28-6 and 13-3 in the conference) by 18 twice. We beat UVa (not a good team that year, but still) by 46 twice. We beat Florida (a 22-win team) by 30. If we win that title game, that team goes down as one of the greatest teams ever. Utter dominance. The only other loss came in the third game in 3 days (the one weakness this team had was depth).

In the title game, we played our starters for an amazing 176 minutes. Only Corey Maggette (with 11 minutes) played more than 7 minutes off the bench. I do wonder if the tightening of the rotation in that game ultimately worked against us. James and Burgess offered nothing that night and Maggette was very shaky defensively, though, so Coach K rolled the dice that his guys could manage the burden. And they almost did.

But the more I think about it (and hindsight is of course 20/20), it did seem like we wore Brand out. I don't know that I'd have played him too much less, but maybe an additional 2-3 minutes of rest would have kept him fresh down the stretch. And maybe a shift in strategy to use Brand as a screener might have helped get our guards going more.

It's just a tough loss to swallow. That UConn team was very good, but we had much more talent overall. It just didn't show that night.

CDu
08-14-2015, 04:14 PM
I've always thought that the biggest factor in the 1999 final was who we played in the semi-final. Duke was definitely fatigued in the final in large part, IMHO, because we had played MSU in the semi-final. MSU was an extremely physical team. If UConn had played MSU, I think the outcome would have been different.

If I had to pick one thing for Coach K to have done differently, it would have been to have Maggette drive to the basket on every play, since the refs were not calling charges.

Yeah, that's a good point. And it wasn't just that we played MSU. We played MSU as the night game, so UConn had an additional 3 hours of rest (and played a weaker opponent). And we played a much shorter rotation than UConn too. In the Semis, their bench played a total of 48 minutes (ours played 36). In the final, their bench played 43 minutes to our 24. Our starters, after playing the late game against a very physical MSU team, averaged 35 minutes per player in the championship game.

Now part of that is because our bench stunk that night. Burgess and James combined for 1 rebound (James) and 1 foul (Burgess) in 13 minutes. Maggette was dynamic but erratic, and he struggled defensively on Hamilton and thus played only 11 minutes. In a hard-fought game, UConn's guys seemed to have the fresher legs for the final 10 minutes.

jimsumner
08-14-2015, 06:49 PM
I've always thought that the biggest factor in the 1999 final was who we played in the semi-final. Duke was definitely fatigued in the final in large part, IMHO, because we had played MSU in the semi-final. MSU was an extremely physical team. If UConn had played MSU, I think the outcome would have been different.

If I had to pick one thing for Coach K to have done differently, it would have been to have Maggette drive to the basket on every play, since the refs were not calling charges.

I agree. And the same thing applies, IMO, to 1986. Duke beat a very physical Kansas team--remember Greg Dreiling?--in the semis, while Louisville toyed with an overmatched LSU team. Switch those semifinal opponents and I think we have a very different Monday night, maybe even a different Monday opponent.

sagegrouse
08-14-2015, 08:14 PM
Thanks to CDu for viewing the 1999 UConn game and sharing his analysis with the DBR faithful.

I may have been wrong about the game, but I didn't "misremember." I am reporting what I thought during and after the game. And I have held those view for 16 years:

1. I expected to beat both Michigan State and UConn (or LSU) by double digits. I was so confident that the head of Iron Dukes, Ron Schmid, tried to calm me down. I mean, Rob was the head booster for Duke, and he was appalled by how high I was on the team.

2. At the beginning of the game, Ricky Moore killed us -- we trailed 13-3 IIRC and spent the rest of the half catching up. You know, you may make up a deficit, but that deficit was real and it made a difference in the game.

3. Brand was buffaloed by the UConn double team and did not take proper advantage by dishing the ball to others.

4. At the end of the game, we should have had Corey Maggette on the court. No one on UConn could keep up with him, and it was obvious during the game. (Maggette scored eight points in 11 minutes.)

5. The next day I thought that we were flat the whole weekend -- not pancake flat, but not nearly as sharp as we had been all season.

6. Three-to-six months later, after Brand, Avery and Maggette jumped ship, I wondered if there was some slacking off by those three -- not playing badly, but not playing as well as they might have. And, of course, there were murmurings about extracurricular activities by the three during the Final Four weekend. But that was on a planet long ago and far away and not worth diving in to now.

I was clearly dead wrong on #1. I don't see I was wrong on the other points, but then being right five times out of six is wa-a-a-ay above my usual performance.

Kindly,
Sage
'Kudos again to CDu for watching the game again -- not me!'

brevity
08-14-2015, 08:30 PM
1. I expected to beat both Michigan State and UConn (or LSU) by double digits.

LSU? You mean OSU, right? Wikipedia tells me LSU didn't even make the field. You couldn't have "misremembered" that, so I'll go with typo.


I was clearly dead wrong on #1. I don't see I was wrong on the other points, but then being right five times out of six is wa-a-a-ay above my usual performance.

You sure handled going 5-1 with a lot more maturity than Bo Ryan.

sagegrouse
08-14-2015, 08:37 PM
LSU? You mean OSU, right? Wikipedia tells me LSU didn't even make the field. You couldn't have "misremembered" that, so I'll go with typo.



You sure handled going 5-1 with a lot more maturity than Bo Ryan.

Yeah, sorry. I don't remember a darned thing about UConn's semifinal game.

CDu
08-14-2015, 09:13 PM
Thanks to CDu for viewing the 1999 UConn game and sharing his analysis with the DBR faithful.

I may have been wrong about the game, but I didn't "misremember." I am reporting what I thought during and after the game. And I have held those view for 16 years:

1. I expected to beat both Michigan State and UConn (or LSU) by double digits. I was so confident that the head of Iron Dukes, Ron Schmid, tried to calm me down. I mean, Rob was the head booster for Duke, and he was appalled by how high I was on the team.

2. At the beginning of the game, Ricky Moore killed us -- we trailed 13-3 IIRC and spent the rest of the half catching up. You know, you may make up a deficit, but that deficit was real and it made a difference in the game.

3. Brand was buffaloed by the UConn double team and did not take proper advantage by dishing the ball to others.

4. At the end of the game, we should have had Corey Maggette on the court. No one on UConn could keep up with him, and it was obvious during the game. (Maggette scored eight points in 11 minutes.)

5. The next day I thought that we were flat the whole weekend -- not pancake flat, but not nearly as sharp as we had been all season.

6. Three-to-six months later, after Brand, Avery and Maggette jumped ship, I wondered if there was some slacking off by those three -- not playing badly, but not playing as well as they might have. And, of course, there were murmurings about extracurricular activities by the three during the Final Four weekend. But that was on a planet long ago and far away and not worth diving in to now.

I was clearly dead wrong on #1. I don't see I was wrong on the other points, but then being right five times out of six is wa-a-a-ay above my usual performance.

Kindly,
Sage
'Kudos again to CDu for watching the game again -- not me!'

Hate to be the bearer of bad news (or changed memories), but a few points of cordial disagreement having just rewatched it:

1. I was right there with you on #1. I was quite sure we would win comfortably.
2. It is true that Moore torched us in the first half. But we actually were the team with the early lead, and UConn did the clawing back. After a comfortable early lead, UConn had a big run to make it a neck-and-neck game the rest of the half.
3. As noted in other posts, I think Brand handled the double teams quite well, actually. It was his teammates who struggled.
5. Right there with you.
6. I could definitely see that being the case for Maggette (who was a space cadet all season) and Avery (who just wasn't a smart player). But Brand played his tail off in that game. He was a manimal on the glass, and he provided huge energy on both ends of the floor. He played so hard that I think he ran out of gas late, and his teammates couldn't buoy him down the stretch.

Anyway, rewatching that game did a few things for me:
1. Gave me an appreciation for how good Langdon was
2. Gave me an appreciation for how good Brand was, and on how much of an island he was on inside
3. Gave me an appreciation for how much better Carrawell and Battier would get in one year's time
4. Gave me an appreciation for how much better James would get in two years
5. Gave me an appreciation for the strengths and limitations of Maggette and Avery

sagegrouse
08-14-2015, 10:33 PM
Hate to be the bearer of bad news (or changed memories), but a few points of cordial disagreement having just rewatched it:

1. I was right there with you on #1. I was quite sure we would win comfortably.

2. It is true that Moore torched us in the first half. But we actually were the team with the early lead, and UConn did the clawing back. After a comfortable early lead, UConn had a big run to make it a neck-and-neck game the rest of the half.
Yes, my factual statement was not correct. Duke did have the early lead, but UConn did go up by ten. Was it 23-13, UConn ahead? Statement still stands (probably wrong but it still stands) -- it really mattered that UConn had a ten-point lead in the first half, even if we caught up by halftime. May have had something to do with our fading in the second half.

3. As noted in other posts, I think Brand handled the double teams quite well, actually. It was his teammates who struggled.
5. Right there with you.
6. I could definitely see that being the case for Maggette (who was a space cadet all season) and Avery (who just wasn't a smart player). But Brand played his tail off in that game. He was a manimal on the glass, and he provided huge energy on both ends of the floor. He played so hard that I think he ran out of gas late, and his teammates couldn't buoy him down the stretch.
No objections, just a different perception.


Anyway, rewatching that game did a few things for me:
1. Gave me an appreciation for how good Langdon was
2. Gave me an appreciation for how good Brand was, and on how much of an island he was on inside
3. Gave me an appreciation for how much better Carrawell and Battier would get in one year's time
4. Gave me an appreciation for how much better James would get in two years
5. Gave me an appreciation for the strengths and limitations of Maggette and Avery

sagegrouse
08-14-2015, 11:03 PM
Anyway, CDu, you have won this thread by going through the torture of re-watching Duke-UConn 1999.

CDu
08-15-2015, 09:05 AM
Yes, my factual statement was not correct. Duke did have the early lead, but UConn did go up by ten. Was it 23-13, UConn ahead? Statement still stands (probably wrong but it still stands) -- it really mattered that UConn had a ten-point lead in the first half, even if we caught up by halftime. May have had something to do with our fading in the second half.

What I was saying was that UConn never led by 10 in the first half - not nitpicking the actual score. Their largest lead was a few points. We led the majority of the first half.


Anyway, CDu, you have won this thread by going through the torture of re-watching Duke-UConn 1999.

Alas, "win" is a relative term. :(