Duke Athletes and Summer School

[ChrisP]

So, I recently had a UNC-sympathetic friend tell me that she heard (from someone who supposedly is fairly "high up" in UNC's athletics department) that Duke has it's athletes take "easy" summer school classes at NC Central. Further, it was claimed that Duke does this to make it easier on the athletes so that they don't have to do Duke-level coursework during the summer. My friend said she was specifically told that Duke players take classes like "clogging" which, for those you unfamiliar with the culture of Appalachia, is a type of dancing.

Now, I am a 3rd generation Duke graduate and live in the Triangle area and follow Duke sports fairly closely but I certainly don't claim to be "in the know" when it comes to such matters as what kinds of courses our guys take but...I find this claim that Duke kids are going to NC Central to get easy grades to be rather ridiculous. It's not like Duke athletes wouldn't stand out (especially basketball players who, you know, tend to literally stand out due to their above average height) and I simply can't believe that I wouldn't have heard about this practice if, in fact, it was a regular, ongoing thing. I mean, if nothing else, I'm sure pro-UNC and pro-NC State fans would be all over this if the claim had any merit.

And of course, I'm quick to dismiss this claim because it came from someone at UNC who, let's face it, seems completely shameless lately in the way they've handled their own athletic/academic scandal. I myself sought credit for summer school classes taken at SMU as an undergrad and I remember Duke made me jump through a fair amount of hoops back in the day so I'm also finding it hard to believe it would be all that easy to get transfer credits.

So, in short, I'm pretty much ready to throw the "BS" flag on this claim but, I consider myself open-minded and realize that I don't know everything so...I'm asking others here on the board to chime in if they have any knowledge of something like this taking place at Duke. I mean no offense to NC Central with this post and don't want to come across as some sort of intellectual snob - but it's not exactly a secret that Duke is generally regarded as more academically rigorous than Central and, as a proud Duke graduate, I really would like to feel fairly certain that "we" do things the right way and have our athletes take only Duke-level classes in pursuit of their degree. Thoughts on this whole thing???

[Henderson]

So, I recently had a UNC-sympathetic friend tell me that she heard (from someone who supposedly is fairly "high up" in UNC's athletics department) that ....

Once I read this opening, I didn't need to read the rest.

[Owen Meany]

First, I would put zero faith in the comments of anyone associated with UNC concerning anything related to academics and sports. Evidently, this is a new accusation being trotted out by UNC faithful, because I recently saw it referenced in the comments sectionof an article that was not even about Duke. I have no idea if Duke athletes take any courses at NCCU. But I do know that Duke and NCCU have an Interinstitutional Registration Agreement that allows all students to take limited classes at the other institution. I also know that several other Universities are part of this agreement including THE UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA AT CHAPEL HILL. So if one believes that Duke set up some shady program to benefit its players, one would also have to believe that UNC, NC State, UNC Charlotte and UNC Greensboro were all complicit in the scam as well.

[Bluedog]

Here's the information regarding the interinstitutional agreement Owen Meany was referencing:
https://registrar.duke.edu/special-registrations/interinstitutional-registration

" [Students at the following] may participate in registration via the interinstitutional registration process:
Duke University
North Carolina Central University
North Carolina State University
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
University of North Carolina at Charlotte
University of North Carolina at Greensboro
The student may take a course at a participating university if the student's academic advisor and/or dean can certify that the course is appropriate for the student's degree program and that the course is not available during the same academic year at the home institution."

Maximum number of courses allowed
"One course per summer, provided that the student is concurrently registered for one course with an equivalent credit value at the home institution."

I have no idea whatsoever if Duke athletes are using this program with regularity to take one summer course at NCCU, but it's a policy given to ALL students at those six universities. It's certainly not true that they're taking their entire course workload at NCCU since that would be clearly against the policy.

Incidentally, NC State has a clogging course since they have a whole department/major in exercise science (not offered in the summer though): http://hes.dasa.ncsu.edu/courses/activity-courses/hesd-233-clogging

[cspan37421]

https://trinity.duke.edu/undergraduate/academic-policies/transfer-credit

It's not a secret, it's pretty limited, and I see no problem with a school operating according to its publicly-declared rules.

Clearly, NCCU is a less selective school than Duke. Does it follow that the classes are easier? Not necessarily, but for sake of argument, let's say probably. Even then I'd say, so what? You may have more than a few scholarship athletes whose academics, while adequate for Duke, may benefit from having an early class or two at NCCU, sort of as a ramp up to Duke-level rigor (again, assuming Duke is tougher ... though one must concede that in general, grade inflation is much more prevalent at private schools than public schools*).

Another thing is, let's be frank - being a student athlete must be exhausting physically, and to some degree mentally as well. In major revenue sports you have game film to watch, tendencies to study, playbooks to learn, etc. I think it makes perfect sense to take an underload during the sport season and make it up during summer school. And obviously most of those courses are going to have to be at Duke**.

Another lame deflection attempt from the pale blue dotty muttonheads. Back to the countdown, I say!



* general observation apparently did not apply to courses taken by athletes in revenue sports at UNC-CH

** As of a couple years ago, may still be true:

Thirty-four (34) course credits are required for graduation, of which may be counted no more than:

Two transfer courses taken at another U.S. 4-year college or university
Ten transfer courses taken either on study abroad or in combination with the allowable number of domestic transfer credits
Four elective courses completed on the S/U basis.
Two courses with a grade of D
One credit of physical education activity (=2 half-credit courses)
Four credits of dance performance/American Dance Festival course work (=8 half-credit courses)
Two credits for house courses (=4 half-credit courses)
Six credits from a Duke professional school
Four credits in military science
One credit from academic internships

[Neals384]

Methinks someone at DBR might consider taking summer school classes instead of talking to UNC people and clogging up our forum with this nonsense.:cool:

[stillcrazie]

I took a couple of classes at UNC, as did many of my colleagues, while getting my Duke Ph.D. I guess my Ph.D. is now tainted. It is possible that NCCU offers summer classes not available at Duke in the summer. It is also common for students to take a year or two at a junior college and then transfer to and get a degree from a better school, with no stigma attached.

The point is that even IF the allegations are true, these athletes ATTENDED their classes, did the work, and passed. Nothing to see here.

[weezie]

So, I recently had a UNC-sympathetic friend...

There, that's better.

[jgehtland]

Further, it was claimed that Duke does this to make it easier on the athletes so that they don't have to do Duke-level coursework during the summer. My friend said she was specifically told that Duke players take classes like "clogging" which, for those you unfamiliar with the culture of Appalachia, is a type of dancing.

First and foremost, if a Duke student (athlete or otherwise) is looking for an "easy" course, they do not have to go off campus to find one. On the summer session list for 2015 at Duke are (http://summersession.duke.edu/uploads/media_items/2015-summer-session-projected-course-list.original.pdf):

* Beginning Tennis
* Intro to Film Studies
* Intro to Photography
* Class Guitar
* Weight Training
* Yoga
* Acting
* Basketball

I am making no statement about how hard any of these courses are, merely that, by title, they are not incredibly different from "Clogging" which is a PhysEd course about a particular kind of dance. If somebody wanted to fill a summer schedule with "easy" courses, they don't have to head over to Central to do it.

Secondly, the mere line of reasoning from your "friend" at UNC is part and parcel with what makes the whole situation over there so distasteful to me; it implies that, in order to go take "easy" courses and "avoid working hard", they should head over to an HBCU, with the deeper implication that HBCUs don't have challenging curricula and/or would be happily complicit in avoiding educating somebody. Which is precisely the OPPOSITE of the actual truth; the amount of effort HBCUs have had to extend historically to provide outstanding educational opportunities in the face of systematic denial of opportunity is staggering and anybody who implies that they don't challenge their students or would help somebody under-educate somebody purposefully is laughable on its face. UNC has demonstrated an appalling amount of implicit and overt racism during this scandal, and this throwaway meme that they now seem to be spreading is just another piece of it. Sad.

[Olympic Fan]

Considering what we know of UNC's academic integrity, I'd be a lot more concerned if Duke athletes were taking summer courses in Chapel Hill. Imagine if we discovered that hundreds of Duke athletes over the last 23 summers had taken phony classes in the UNC African-American studies program. Compared to that, a summer course at NCCU is nothing ...

The NCCU slur is an old UNC canard. It's been around for decades. I don't know for sure, but I was thinking it was spurred by Steve Spurrier. When he was hired as head football coach in 1987, he was a couple of courses short of graduation at Florida. At the time, Duke made it part of his hiring agreement that he complete his degree work. Spurrier ended up taking two classes at NCCU that secured his degree at Florida.

That's about when I started to hear the UNC claim that Duke athletes take easy classes at NCCU. I can't say with certainty that it doesn't happen from time to time, but I do know it's not widespread. As Bluedog points out, it's AT MOST one course per summer.

But there is something else behind the original slur -- that's the suggestion that Duke athletes take "easy" courses (whether at NCCU or Duke). They do. But one of the UNC mantras during this scandal is that athletes at every school take easy courses. What they refuse to acknowledge is that what Wainstain uncovered was a system of PHONY courses -- courses that did not meet, were not supervised by an instructor and were in fact created and graded by a secretary in the AFAM Department. He included e-mails from academic advisors begging for specific grades to keep athletes eligible (and in at least one case, creating a phony course to keep one specific athlete eligible).

THAT"S not the same as taking as easy course -- whether at NCCU or anywhere else.

PS I can't resist telling a summer school story. Before my final year at Duke, I took four summer school courses -- two in two different summer sessions. My professor for one History class was a visiting professor from UNC. On the first day of class, he told us that he had been hearing for years how tough Duke was and that he didn't believe it. He insisted that UNC was just as tough or tougher. He warned us that if we stayed in the class, we were facing the toughest course we'd ever taken.

All I can say is that I did my normal work (which was usually B/B+ level) and got the easiest A I've ever gotten at Duke.

[weezie]

...All I can say is that I did my normal work (which was usually B/B+ level) and got the easiest A I've ever gotten at Duke...

This brings back terrible memories of my having shed near-tears of blood over some secondary physics in summer school at Duke. Aaargh, that one still stings. I wish your prof had taught that one.

[4Gen]

Would anyone really pay $6000 to take Beginning Tennis? I'd rather hire Federer to give me lessons.

[Duvall]

Note that this theory is widely accepted though never supported by the nearly as arrogant fans of significantly less accomplished programs like Virginia and Wake.

[devildeac]

This brings back terrible memories of my having shed near-tears of blood over some secondary physics in summer school at Duke. Aaargh, that one still stings. I wish your prof had taught that one.

I took my 2 physics courses at Rutgers one summer. And worked full-time, probably averaging 35 hours a week, during each session. Cost? Inexpensive. Very inexpensive. Reward? Hard work+fair, straight-forward testing=Second highest grade each session. Both translated to "pass" at Duke and counted toward graduation requirements. Granted, that was a long, long time ago in a land far, far away, but, combined with the A that I got in a grad level pharmacology course (during which I actually attended classes) I took at c*rolina after my Duke graduation, I remain convinced (whether true or delusional), that I'd have finished with a much higher GPA at either of those schools than I did at Duke. (And yes, even after that last admission, I'll staunchly maintain that my profile still belongs on Mt. Hatemore:o.)

[cspan37421]

Considering what we know of UNC's academic integrity, I'd be a lot more concerned if Duke athletes were taking summer courses in Chapel Hill.

This. This. A thousand times, this!!

[MarkD83]

I took my 2 physics courses at Rutgers one summer. And worked full-time, probably averaging 35 hours a week, during each session. Cost? Inexpensive. Very inexpensive. Reward? Hard work+fair, straight-forward testing=Second highest grade each session. Both translated to "pass" at Duke and counted toward graduation requirements. Granted, that was a long, long time ago in a land far, far away, but, combined with the A that I got in a grad level pharmacology course (during which I actually attended classes) I took at c*rolina after my Duke graduation, I remain convinced (whether true or delusional), that I'd have finished with a much higher GPA at either of those schools than I did at Duke. (And yes, even after that last admission, I'll staunchly maintain that my profile still belongs on Mt. Hatemore:o.)

In a similar vain...I took my two semesters of physics at University of Penn (an IVY LEAGUE SCHOOL). Duke told me that I needed at least C+s for them to count at Duke. (I got A's so I was good.) So I have no doubt that Duke sets the bar high for classes to be transfered in.

[Indoor66]

I took my 2 physics courses at Rutgers one summer. And worked full-time, probably averaging 35 hours a week, during each session. Cost? Inexpensive. Very inexpensive. Reward? Hard work+fair, straight-forward testing=Second highest grade each session. Both translated to "pass" at Duke and counted toward graduation requirements. Granted, that was a long, long time ago in a land far, far away, but, combined with the A that I got in a grad level pharmacology course (during which I actually attended classes) I took at c*rolina after my Duke graduation, I remain convinced (whether true or delusional), that I'd have finished with a much higher GPA at either of those schools than I did at Duke. (And yes, even after that last admission, I'll staunchly maintain that my profile still belongs on Mt. Hatemore:o.)

I didn't think they knew about physics in those days! :cool:

[devildeac]

I didn't think they knew about physics in those days! :cool:

Well, Isaac Newton and I did discuss that one afternoon...

(weezie will be none too pleased if she reads your post...)

[devildeac]

And, if our guys are going to NCCU for a summer session or two, and get involved with some pick-up games with the NCCU players, I'd bet there's some serious ballin' going on, especially if LeVelle Moton sticks his head in the gym to say hello;).

[SilkyJ]

PS I can't resist telling a summer school story. Before my final year at Duke, I took four summer school courses -- two in two different summer sessions. My professor for one History class was a visiting professor from UNC. On the first day of class, he told us that he had been hearing for years how tough Duke was and that he didn't believe it. He insisted that UNC was just as tough or tougher. He warned us that if we stayed in the class, we were facing the toughest course we'd ever taken.

All I can say is that I did my normal work (which was usually B/B+ level) and got the easiest A I've ever gotten at Duke.

I took a semester of analytical chemistry at both Duke and UNC and it was like taking a college vs high school course. Such a joke.

[Edouble]

Compare the level of writing in The Chronicle to that of The Daily Tarheel.

[Duvall]

Compare the level of writing in The Chronicle to that of The Daily Tarheel.

Wait, which way is that supposed to cut?

[Henderson]

Wait, which way is that supposed to cut?


Seriously. Rasheed says howdy.

[BD80]

I didn't think they knew about physics in those days! :cool:

They did, but only in 2 dimensions.

[Edouble]

Wait, which way is that supposed to cut?

Seriously. Rasheed says howdy.

The prose, not the content.

[BigWayne]

So, I recently had a UNC-sympathetic friend tell me that she heard (from someone who supposedly is fairly "high up" in UNC's athletics department) that Duke has it's athletes take "easy" summer school classes at NC Central. Further, it was claimed that Duke does this to make it easier on the athletes so that they don't have to do Duke-level coursework during the summer. My friend said she was specifically told that Duke players take classes like "clogging" which, for those you unfamiliar with the culture of Appalachia, is a type of dancing.



As somebody else stated, the fact it came from a UNC source makes the statement likely to be fabricated in the first place, but "clogging" at a HBC?