Jeff Capel - the reason behind our resurgence in recruiting?

[flyingdutchdevil]

Duke has always been a school that attracts the top talent. But, in the last half decade, it really seems that we aren't losing as many recruits to other top programs as a) you'd expect and b) during the 00s.

This may be a myopic view point, but it feels like our main targets in the last 3-4 years have all committed to Duke (I'm sure we've missed on a few recruits, but you get my point).

This could be attributably to many factors, but there is a correlation between Capel's existence on the bench, our new recruiting philosophy, and getting insane talent.

So, my question is, is Capel a) that good of a recruiter and/or b) is the recruiting success attributable to Capel?

[NashvilleDevil]

Duke has always been a school that attracts the top talent. But, in the last half decade, it really seems that we aren't losing as many recruits to other top programs as a) you'd expect and b) during the 00s.

This may be a myopic view point, but it feels like our main targets in the last 3-4 years have all committed to Duke (I'm sure we've missed on a few recruits, but you get my point).

This could be attributably to many factors, but there is a correlation between Capel's existence on the bench, our new recruiting philosophy, and getting insane talent.

So, my question is, is Capel a) that good of a recruiter and/or b) is the recruiting success attributable to Capel?

You obviously don't read Calipari's columns that are ghost written by Woj. It's all because of K being the Team USA coach.

[Duvall]

Duke has always been a school that attracts the top talent. But, in the last half decade, it really seems that we aren't losing as many recruits to other top programs as a) you'd expect and b) during the 00s.

This may be a myopic view point, but it feels like our main targets in the last 3-4 years have all committed to Duke (I'm sure we've missed on a few recruits, but you get my point).

This could be attributably to many factors, but there is a correlation between Capel's existence on the bench, our new recruiting philosophy, and getting insane talent.

So, my question is, is Capel a) that good of a recruiter and/or b) is the recruiting success attributable to Capel?

Of course it's more complex than that. Capel is a strong recruiter, but he wasn't even the lead recruiter for Tatum, Scheyer was. And of course this Krzyzewski guy has had some successes over the years.

[OldPhiKap]

Duke has always been a school that attracts the top talent. But, in the last half decade, it really seems that we aren't losing as many recruits to other top programs as a) you'd expect and b) during the 00s.

This may be a myopic view point, but it feels like our main targets in the last 3-4 years have all committed to Duke (I'm sure we've missed on a few recruits, but you get my point).

This could be attributably to many factors, but there is a correlation between Capel's existence on the bench, our new recruiting philosophy, and getting insane talent.

So, my question is, is Capel a) that good of a recruiter and/or b) is the recruiting success attributable to Capel?

Capel is a big part of it.

Legendary coach coming off another NC and great U.S. National success is a big part too.

But Capel is clearly a great recruiter and relates to the kids today. K has made that point himself several times over the last year.

Great post.

[MChambers]

You obviously don't read Calipari's columns that are ghost written by Woj. It's all because of K being the Team USA coach.
If you read Feinstein before K became Team USA coach, it's despite K being Team USA coach.

[NashvilleDevil]

If you read Feinstein before K became Team USA coach, it's despite K being Team USA coach.

I was kidding about K and Team USA. If you recall that horrendous column by Woj about K and Team USA then my post makes some sense.

[MChambers]

I was kidding about K and Team USA. If you recall that horrendous column by Woj about K and Team USA then my post makes some sense.
Just wanted to point out that silly old argument that Team USA was going to hurt Coach K's recruiting. And I'm certainly not suggesting that anyone read Feinstein!

[drhbre]

If you read Feinstein before K became Team USA coach, it's despite K being Team USA coach.

Was Feinstein's article regarding the negative impact on Duke of Coach K coaching Team USA basketball before or after his article about how Duke couldn't compete in ACC football and should drop to I-AA or give up football?

[Class of '94]

Duke has always been a school that attracts the top talent. But, in the last half decade, it really seems that we aren't losing as many recruits to other top programs as a) you'd expect and b) during the 00s.

This may be a myopic view point, but it feels like our main targets in the last 3-4 years have all committed to Duke (I'm sure we've missed on a few recruits, but you get my point).

This could be attributably to many factors, but there is a correlation between Capel's existence on the bench, our new recruiting philosophy, and getting insane talent.

So, my question is, is Capel a) that good of a recruiter and/or b) is the recruiting success attributable to Capel?

Great post!! I would still say K is the common denominator in all of Duke's success. I remember when we as a Duke community was giving Chris Collins a lot of props (and deservedly so) for his recruiting successes and prowess; and we were worried about Duke's ability to recruit when Collins left for NW. That being said, this is certainly a special time right now for Duke in terms of recruiting; and I am encouraged that it will continue well into the future based on the signs that appears to show that all of our assistant coaches will become very good recruiters. Scheyer (if true) was the lead assistant for Tatum; Nate James brought in Grayson Allen; and of course the track record of Capel.

[DukieTiger]

Another factor that we shouldn't overlook is the initiative they began around '07 or '08 to really remake Duke's brand in the media for the sake of the general public but also for recruitzing-sake. I'm sure there are other things that went into it, but Dukeblueplanet was created at the perfect time. I think it has existed for 8 years and the vast majority of its existence has had either Nolan Smith or Quinn Cook as the face of the program. Those two guys have done a ton for the Duke program that will go beyond a pair of national championships. On top of Nolan and Quinn, Duke has generally had a lot of universally liked players over the past decade (ever since people speculated if K should retire circa 2007.)

And then of course you have DBP existing in a stretch that featured talent like Nolan, Kyle, Kyrie, Mason, Jabari, Tyus/Jah/JW.

Add on top of that K, Capel, and the visibility of working with Lebron and Kobe and Steph Curry and you have the (somewhat) full picture of this golden age of Duke's recruiting. What a ride!

[BD80]

I say it is the J squad. No disrespect to the efforts of Chris Collins or Wojo, but we've got some serious "J" mojo goin' on.

Jeff Capel, Jon Scheyer, and Nate James, yielding:

Amile Jefferson

Jabari, Matt Jones

Jahlil, Justise and Tyus Jones

Jeter, Justin Robinson, Ingram (per climatic scene in Indiana Jones Last Crusade - J is I in Aramaic)

Jason Tatum, Harry Giles (sounds like Jiles), Frank Jackson

I would note that Luke Kennard's initials follow the letter J

[sagegrouse]

Just wanted to point out that silly old argument that Team USA was going to hurt Coach K's recruiting. And I'm certainly not suggesting that anyone read Feinstein!

This Board was torn on the subject, and some folks really objected to divided loyalties by K. I was neutral as to whether it would help or hurt Duke basketball, but I thought K had earned the right to do coach Team USA if he wanted to do so.

[Steven43]

And then of course you have DBP existing in a stretch that featured talent like Nolan, Kyle, Kyrie, Mason, Jabari, Tyus/Jah/JW.

Did you purposely leave out Austin Rivers? If you will recall Austin was a HUGE recruiting coup for us. At the time he committed to Duke, October 1, 2010 (after earlier decommitting from Florida), he was considered the #1 recruit in the nation. Duke fans everywhere were ecstatic about the potential he showed in high school and what he might be able to do for Duke. As a major bonus his father, Doc Rivers, the high-profile coach of the Boston Celtics, had recently won an NBA championship in 2008 and had just barely lost out on another championship in 2010 in an exciting and very close 7-game series (which Boston SHOULD have won, by the way). His presence at Duke games brought a lot of attention and added an additional level of prestige to the Duke program.

Additionally, I would be remiss if I failed to mention that Rivers picked Duke over UNC. Oh yeah, and just over three years ago on February 8, 2012, he made what is probably the single greatest and most exciting shot in the history of regular season Duke basketball. Don't sell Austin's impact short.

[53n206]

Agree about
Austin. An important player for us.

[timmy c]

Did you purposely leave out Austin Rivers? If you will recall Austin was a HUGE recruiting coup for us. At the time he committed to Duke, October 1, 2010 (after earlier decommitting from Florida), he was considered the #1 recruit in the nation. Duke fans everywhere were ecstatic about the potential he showed in high school and what he might be able to do for Duke. As a major bonus his father, Doc Rivers, the high-profile coach of the Boston Celtics, had recently won an NBA championship in 2008 and had just barely lost out on another championship in 2010 in an exciting and very close 7-game series (which Boston SHOULD have won, by the way). His presence at Duke games brought a lot of attention and added an additional level of prestige to the Duke program.

Additionally, I would be remiss if I failed to mention that Rivers picked Duke over UNC. Oh yeah, and just over three years ago on February 8, 2012, he made what is probably the single greatest and most exciting shot in the history of regular season Duke basketball. Don't sell Austin's impact short.


Agree about
Austin. An important player for us.

I don't think anyone is selling Austin short, but let's face it, there is no "J" in his name. :confused::confused::confused:

[OldPhiKap]

I don't think anyone is selling Austin short, but let's face it, there is no "J" in has name. :confused::confused::confused:

Yeah, but plenty of J in his game.

[timmy c]

Yeah, but plenty of J in his game.

Nice. I think I set you up for that one.
If Duke could just recruit someone named JJ who could has a J in his game from anywhere inside a gym, then Duke will really kill it...

[moonpie23]

as a former entertainment manager for 30 years, trust me when i tell you that it's ALWAYS better for someone ELSE to be telling a potential interested "anyone" that you are the GOAT , rather than YOU telling someone that you're the GOAT.

Capel, jon and nate set it up, K walks in and closes escrow....

Let's face it folks, this team has banished just about every recruiting knock there was about coming to duke......


let it roll,

[stillcrazie]

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaab-the-dagger/how-duke-reclaimed-its-status-as-the-top-destination-for-elite-recruits-204841742.html

[snowdenscold]

Ingram (per climatic scene in Indiana Jones Last Crusade - J is I in Aramaic)


Love the shout out to Indiana Jones and one of my favorite scenes in one of my favorite movies, but a minor quibble - in IJatLC, Dr. Henry Jones, Sr. cries out, "But in the Latin alphabet, "Jehovah" begins with an "I"."

[JasonEvans]

It is very interesting to look at the quality of Duke recruits in recent years. You will notice a real pick up the past few seasons and a lot more top 5 and top 10 recruits than in the late 00s.

Here are all the top 30 recruits (from RSCI) Duke has gotten in the past decade.

2005 - Josh McRoberts #1, Greg Paulus #13
2006 - Gerald Henderson #10, Lance Thomas #20, Brian Zoubek #25, Jon Scheyer #28
2007 - Kyle Singler #6, Nolan Smith #18
2008 - Elliot Williams #15
2009 - Ryan Kelly #14 and Mason Plumlee #18
2010 - Kyrie Irving #2
2011 - Austin Rivers #2
2012 - Rasheed Suliamon #12, Amile Jefferson #21
2013 - Jabari Parker #3 (also Rodney Hood who was #27 in 2011)
2014 - Jahlil Okafor #1, Tyus Jones #7, Justise Winslow #13, Grayson Allen #24
2015 - Brandon Ingram #4, Derryck Thornton #13, Chase Jeter #14, Luke Kennard #21

Now, it is of course worth noting that recruiting rankings are just a so-so measure of how good players will be. The vast majority of top 5 recruits turn out to be pretty darn good players, but there are plenty of guys ranked between 6 and 15 or 20 who don't pan out nearly as good as expected.

Anyone remember Grant Jarrett? He was the #11 recruit in 2012 who went to Arizona. He averaged all of 5 points per game for the Wildcats and turned pro despite having a terrible freshman season. He has been largely in the D-League ever since (a couple 10-day contracts here and there).

How about Chris Walker, the #7 recruit in 2013? He had a couple terrible seasons at Florida (4.7 ppg this past year) and also declared for the draft. He was undrafted. Last seen playing for the Houston Rockets summer league team for whom he played 13 minutes a couple days ago.

And just this past season, Cliff Alexander was the #4 player in the class but only averaged 7 ppg at Kansas and went undrafted.

I'm not sure what my point is other than to note that recruiting is only one piece of the puzzle. Getting the kids to work hard and perform once they get to school also matters A LOT.

-Jason "I feel like the back half of this post was a waste of time... but I was doing the research so I put it out there for you to read ;) " Evans

[COYS]

It is very interesting to look at the quality of Duke recruits in recent years. You will notice a real pick up the past few seasons and a lot more top 5 and top 10 recruits than in the late 00s.

Here are all the top 30 recruits (from RSCI) Duke has gotten in the past decade.

2005 - Josh McRoberts #1, Greg Paulus #13
2006 - Gerald Henderson #10, Lance Thomas #20, Brian Zoubek #25, Jon Scheyer #28
2007 - Kyle Singler #6, Nolan Smith #18
2008 - Elliot Williams #15
2009 - Ryan Kelly #14 and Mason Plumlee #18
2010 - Kyrie Irving #2
2011 - Austin Rivers #2
2012 - Rasheed Suliamon #12, Amile Jefferson #21
2013 - Jabari Parker #3 (also Rodney Hood who was #27 in 2011)
2014 - Jahlil Okafor #1, Tyus Jones #7, Justise Winslow #13, Grayson Allen #24
2015 - Brandon Ingram #4, Derryck Thornton #13, Chase Jeter #14, Luke Kennard #21

Now, it is of course worth noting that recruiting rankings are just a so-so measure of how good players will be. The vast majority of top 5 recruits turn out to be pretty darn good players, but there are plenty of guys ranked between 6 and 15 or 20 who don't pan out nearly as good as expected.

Anyone remember Grant Jarrett? He was the #11 recruit in 2012 who went to Arizona. He averaged all of 5 points per game for the Wildcats and turned pro despite having a terrible freshman season. He has been largely in the D-League ever since (a couple 10-day contracts here and there).

How about Chris Walker, the #7 recruit in 2013? He had a couple terrible seasons at Florida (4.7 ppg this past year) and also declared for the draft. He was undrafted. Last seen playing for the Houston Rockets summer league team for whom he played 13 minutes a couple days ago.

And just this past season, Cliff Alexander was the #4 player in the class but only averaged 7 ppg at Kansas and went undrafted.

I'm not sure what my point is other than to note that recruiting is only one piece of the puzzle. Getting the kids to work hard and perform once they get to school also matters A LOT.

-Jason "I feel like the back half of this post was a waste of time... but I was doing the research so I put it out there for you to read ;) " Evans

Jason, I think you're right to note the increased success with top 5 or top 10 guys. In fact, I wonder if the staff's strategy changed at all (a few lottery talents mixed in with good multi year guys) or if they have simply had more success executing it. 2006 had the high lottery guy (Josh, even if it didn't turn out that way) and Greg, a good player who was likely to stay for a while. The 2006 class had Gerald, who was projected to be a lottery guy but just took a while longer to get there, plus Jon, Lance, and Zoubs. The 2007 class was supposed to also have Patrick Patterson (Rsci 10) in addition to Kyle plus Nolan and Taylor King. 2008 included lottery level talent Greg Monroe (6)as a priority target. 2009 had John Wall (2) and Kenny Boynton (9). Even when our luck got better in 2010 with Kyrie (2), that class could have also included you know who, giving Duke the 1 and 2 ranked players who were both thought to be one and done guys.

So I feel like the primary difference in recruiting is that the staff has been more successful getting too 10 guys basically every year rather than focusing more on one and done talent.

Whether that success is a result in change in strategy (casting wider nets?), personnel (Capel), rebranding (dukeblueplanet), K's work with USA basketball (which started in 2006), or some combo of the above is up for debate. But the staff never once stopped trying to get top ten guys . . . Or even multiple top 10 guys

[Wander]

Whether that success is a result in change in strategy (casting wider nets?), personnel (Capel), rebranding (dukeblueplanet), K's work with USA basketball (which started in 2006), or some combo of the above is up for debate.

I think everyone here is the missing the biggest reason, which is the national championship in 2010. There's a positive feedback loop. I think that title really jump started us in recruiting by announcing that we were "back" after a relative down period from 2002-2009. Dominating UNC since then and adding another national title means this isn't going to stop anytime soon.

[Kedsy]

It is very interesting to look at the quality of Duke recruits in recent years. You will notice a real pick up the past few seasons and a lot more top 5 and top 10 recruits than in the late 00s.

Here are all the top 30 recruits (from RSCI) Duke has gotten in the past decade.

2005 - Josh McRoberts #1, Greg Paulus #13
2006 - Gerald Henderson #10, Lance Thomas #20, Brian Zoubek #25, Jon Scheyer #28
2007 - Kyle Singler #6, Nolan Smith #18, Taylor King #27
2008 - Elliot Williams #15
2009 - Ryan Kelly #14 and Mason Plumlee #18, Andre Dawkins #20ish (not in RSCI, but rated in low 20s by services that re-rated him after he reclassified)
2010 - Kyrie Irving #2
2011 - Austin Rivers #2, Michael Gbinije #28
2012 - Rasheed Suliamon #12, Amile Jefferson #21
2013 - Jabari Parker #3 (also Rodney Hood who was #27 in 2011)
2014 - Jahlil Okafor #1, Tyus Jones #7, Justise Winslow #13, Grayson Allen #24
2015 - Brandon Ingram #4, Derryck Thornton #13, Chase Jeter #14, Luke Kennard #21

I've added (in bold) some top 30 Duke recruits left out of your original table. Also, for completeness' sake, here are Duke's top 30 recruits from the rest of the RSCI era (another 7 years), plus one extra year:

1997 (no RSCI) - Elton Brand, Shane Battier, Chris Burgess, Will Avery (pretty sure he was in the top 30)
1998 - Corey Maggette #16
1999 - Jason Williams #3, Carlos Boozer #8, Casey Sanders #16, Mike Dunleavy #26
2000 - Chris Duhon #7
2001 - Daniel Ewing #29
2002 - Shelden Williams #8, JJ Redick #11, Shavlik Randolph #14, Sean Dockery #21, Michael Thompson #30
2003 - Luol Deng #2
2004 - DeMarcus Nelson #18

Looking at it in a slightly different way:



Year Top 5 Top 10 Top 20 Top 30
---- ----- ------ ------- ------
1997* 1 2 3 4
1998 0 0 1 1
1999 1 2 3 4
2000 0 1 1 1
2001 0 0 0 1
2002 0 1 3 5
2003 1 1 1 1
2004 0 0 1 1
2005 1 1 2 2
2006 0 1 2 4
2007 0 1 2 3
2008 0 0 1 1
2009 0 0 2 3
2010 1 1 1 1
2011 1 1 1 2
2012 0 0 1 2
2013 1 1 1 2
2014 1 2 3 4
2015 1 1 3 4


* approximated

Not in the table:

2003 - Top 10 Kris Humphries signs with Duke then is released from his commitment.
2004 - Top 5 Shawn Livingston commits to Duke but decides to skip college altogether.
2016 - Top 5 Jayson Tatum commits to Duke.

Counting Tatum in 2016, getting top-5 recruits in six of seven years is very impressive indeed (although the first two occurred before Coach Capel joined Duke's staff). Beyond that, the stream of top-10 talent coming to Duke seems pretty steady, not necessarily spiking in recent years.

My guess is the quantity of incoming top-20 and top-30 recruits should be related to the quantity of departing rotation players. I've started looking at those numbers, but I don't have enough to draw any conclusions yet. If anything comes of that research, I'll share it somewhere on the Board.

[JasonEvans]

Great work, Kedsy. It is also worth noting that what cannot be measured is the relative quality of each class.

For example, the 2007 class has produced James Harden, Blake Griffin, Kevin Love, DeAndre Jordan, and Dereck Rose (all of whom were top 20 recruits) plus a slew of other significant NBA players. But the 2008 class pales by comparison. The best players from that class (Klay Thompson and Draymond Green) weren't even top 50 recruits. Among guys who were highly regarded (top 20) recruits, the best is Greg Monroe and then probably Brandon Jennings or Tyreke Evans. Decent players, but not even close in comparison to the 2007 guys.

-Jason "many experts think the current, 2015 class, is kinda weak. 2016 is considered very strong though" Evans

[JohnJ]

So if we get Harry Giles, 2016 will be the first ever that we have gotten 2 top 5 picks (assuming rankings don't change).

[duke blue brewcrew]

If I missed this getting posted upthread, I apologize. This is a great article that talks about the Duke recruiting resurgance and Capel's role in that. It discusses his tactics for recruiting both Jones and Okafor, and how he combatted the stigma that Duke doesn't know how to utilize good big men.


But maybe the biggest reason for Duke's success is Krzyzewski's 2011 hire of ex-Blue Devils guard Jeff Capel as associate head coach. The former Oklahoma and VCU coach has shown a remarkable knack for building relationships with prospective recruits, spearheading the Blue Devils' pursuit of Jabari Parker, Rodney Hood, Winslow, Okafor and Jones, among others.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaab-the-dagger/how-duke-reclaimed-its-status-as-the-top-destination-for-elite-recruits-204841742.html

[FerryFor50]

There's also a correlation to K embracing one and dones and Duke's increased recruiting prowess, as well as the rule change to force kids to stay in school at least a year.

I'm sure there used to be a negative recruiting angle used by other coaches about K being "out of touch" and not getting guys to the NBA. Remember the old Duke/UNC argument about how many more UNC players were in the NBA and how many Duke players were duds? Real hard to make that argument now...

It's a variety of things, really. I think having Capel helps, but I think he arrived at the right time. The Olympics, K, the brand/program, UNC's fall (don't underestimate that one), embracing one and dones, etc... those all have helped recruiting.

[roywhite]

There's also a correlation to K embracing one and dones and Duke's increased recruiting prowess, as well as the rule change to force kids to stay in school at least a year.I'm sure there used to be a negative recruiting angle used by other coaches about K being "out of touch" and not getting guys to the NBA. Remember the old Duke/UNC argument about how many more UNC players were in the NBA and how many Duke players were duds? Real hard to make that argument now...

It's a variety of things, really. I think having Capel helps, but I think he arrived at the right time. The Olympics, K, the brand/program, UNC's fall (don't underestimate that one), embracing one and dones, etc... those all have helped recruiting.

In K's summer news conference a few weeks back, he had an interesting comment that touches on your point. He was talking about the 2015-16 team and said something to the effect of.. "We'll be young, but we're always going to be young". Seems he'll be quite happy to repeat the 2014-2015 experience with a very talented freshman class annually that competes for a championship and a good number go to the pros early.

[Billy Dat]

This thread has failed to mention K's change of heart around one-and-done's. He very much used to be a critic, and that was used against us in recruiting, even when he tried to change his tune. I think Kyrie's experience, and the program's pursuit of additional one-and-done's after Kyrie, went a long way toward changing the perception of Duke as a place that wouldn't help a kid be one-and-done. The Capel article also talked about how they have fought back against the "Duke big men screen and play defense" negative recruiting tactic.

The Team USA angle that isn't get played up enough is that K and Colangelo's re-imagining of the USA Basketball structure and approach has led to the very best talents playing USA Basketball each summer - and K is the face of the program. In that way, I think Wojnarowksi's article was spot on, he just spent too much space in that article painting K as a manipulator and disingenuous huslter.

[FerryFor50]

this thread has failed to mention k's change of heart around one-and-done's. He very much used to be a critic, and that was used against us in recruiting, even when he tried to change his tune. I think kyrie's experience, and the program's pursuit of additional one-and-done's after kyrie, went a long way toward changing the perception of duke as a place that wouldn't help a kid be one-and-done. The capel article also talked about how they have fought back against the "duke big men screen and play defense" negative recruiting tactic.

The team usa angle that isn't get played up enough is that k and colangelo's re-imagining of the usa basketball structure and approach has led to the very best talents playing usa basketball each summer - and k is the face of the program. In that way, i think wojnarowksi's article was spot on, he just spent too much space in that article painting k as a manipulator and disingenuous huslter.

*ahem*


there's also a correlation to k embracing one and dones and duke's increased recruiting prowess, as well as the rule change to force kids to stay in school at least a year.

i'm sure there used to be a negative recruiting angle used by other coaches about k being "out of touch" and not getting guys to the nba. Remember the old duke/unc argument about how many more unc players were in the nba and how many duke players were duds? Real hard to make that argument now...

it's a variety of things, really. I think having capel helps, but i think he arrived at the right time. The olympics, k, the brand/program, unc's fall (don't underestimate that one), embracing one and dones, etc... Those all have helped recruiting.

:D

[Kedsy]

So if we get Harry Giles, 2016 will be the first ever that we have gotten 2 top 5 picks (assuming rankings don't change).

Yes, at least since the RSCI began in 1998, and probably well beyond that. Maybe ever. I'm fairly certain that neither Shane Battier nor Chris Burgess were top five recruits in 1997 (Elton Brand was, I'm pretty sure) but I don't know that for certain.

[Saratoga2]

It is very interesting to look at the quality of Duke recruits in recent years. You will notice a real pick up the past few seasons and a lot more top 5 and top 10 recruits than in the late 00s.


I'm not sure what my point is other than to note that recruiting is only one piece of the puzzle. Getting the kids to work hard and perform once they get to school also matters A LOT.
" Evans

Quinn was a #37 or #38 depending on the polls but to your point was picked by coach K who saw the work ethic and the will to win. Getting Quinn probably had a lot to do with winning the 2015 National Championship.

There are many reasons for our success in recruiting. Capel is certainly one of those. Coach K's success outside of Duke, the teams success, success with NBA draft, the fact that Duke is a clean program with no penalties ( vs UNC, Syracuse and others), the Duke educational reputation, the tendency to go after more one and dones, TV coverage, flexibility in our game strategies (defensive zone), etc.

Combinations of these have been working to the Duke advantage as we are clearly considered one of the premier programs in the country.

[Kedsy]

Quinn was a #37 or #38 depending on the polls but to your point was picked by coach K who saw the work ethic and the will to win.

Quinn was ranked #31 by the RSCI.

Other recruits in the #31 to #35 range (i.e., just outside Jason's table) have been Josh Hairston (#32), Semi Ojeleye (#32), and Matt Jones (#34). One can certainly argue that the relevant cutoff should be at 35, rather than the 30 that Jason chose.

[Duke95]

So, our national championship starting roster this year consisted of 3 OADs and 2 recruits in the 30s range.

Turned out to be a perfect mix of top talent and stability.

[Troublemaker]

The Team USA angle that isn't get played up enough is that K and Colangelo's re-imagining of the USA Basketball structure and approach has led to the very best talents playing USA Basketball each summer - and K is the face of the program. In that way, I think Wojnarowksi's article was spot on, he just spent too much space in that article painting K as a manipulator and disingenuous huslter.

Yep.

For example, Jayson Tatum was 7 years old when Coach K accepted the job of national team coach. Basically all Tatum has ever known in his life is that USA Basketball is cool, that it's an honor to play U16 and then come back the next summer to play U17 and then come back the next summer to play U19, which is what Jayson did. Justise, Jahlil, and Tyus all had similar USA careers as well. All Jayson has ever known in his life is that Coach K is at the top of the USA pyramid, that all the NBA superstars love playing for Coach K and have won big under Coach K, that Coach K is the only college coach that has coached those NBA superstars and can share their habits and routines and also probably a treasure trove of great stories about them.

Jayson's frame of reference with regard to Duke and Coach K was amazingly advantageous to Duke's recruiting effort of him and completely different from, say, Brandan Wright's frame of reference when we were recruiting him in 2006. (For that matter, their respective frames of reference with regard to UNC are completely different as well.)

I agree with others that the explanation for Duke's recruiting surge is multi-faceted, and I have no doubt that Jeff Capel has been excellent. But the biggest slice of the explanation pie still belongs to USA basketball, imo. To me, it was always silly for anyone to suggest that Coach K being the national coach wouldn't eventually lead to major recruiting gains. It just takes time for a new culture (coolness of USA basketball) and a new reputation (Coach K is a great guy beloved by NBA superstars) to set in. But "eventually" arrived about two years ago, I'd say, and now us lucky, lucky Duke basketball fans can sit back and enjoy a halcyon era of recruiting that we've not seen before and probably won't see again once Coach K retires. Enjoy and appreciate it folks. Soak it all up.

[Lauderdevil]

The first thing every recruit says when they sign with Duke is that they wanted the opportunity to play for Coach K -- so I don't think anyone can say that Jeff Capel is driving the recruiting engine. That said, Capel seems to be building deep relationships with high school players that may be the equivalent of the relationships other head coaches are building -- meaning he on his own is making Duke competitive, even before playing the definitive trump card of Coach K. Duke has the best coach in history plus a strong Power 5 head coach at the table for these discussions, all in the context of the Duke basketball mystique. That's pretty compelling, as recent history has shown.

[Skitzle]

Doesn't hurt that we one the 2010 title with "a band of misfit toys"... Our recruiting had faded since 2001 and really picked up after 2010.

Though... Uconns... didnt? I dunno

[Billy Dat]

Though... Uconns... didnt? I dunno

UConn's last two titles may have bought them decades of future heartbreak if the universe is a zero sum game. More broadly, to have gone 4-4 in title games and won titles in 4 of the 5 total times they have been to Final Fours....and then to win titles in 2011 and 2014 with the teams they trotted out....that's just crazy good fortune.

[superdave]

2003 - Top 10 Kris Humphries signs with Duke then is released from his commitment.
2004 - Top 5 Shawn Livingston commits to Duke but decides to skip college altogether.

Coach K got one season out of Luol Deng, Kris Humphries and Shaun Livingston combined. He made the Final Four that year, and coulda/shoulda won the title.

Those were three big recruits he landed during a 5-year period where Unc was the best program in college basketball. People were talking about how he had lost his touch, Duke was too white, etc. If those guys spend a combined 4-5 seasons, it might have had a huge snowball effect on recruiting.

[BD80]

... But the biggest slice of the explanation pie still belongs to USA basketball, imo. To me, it was always silly for anyone to suggest that Coach K being the national coach wouldn't eventually lead to major recruiting gains. ...

What you are forgetting is the huge risk Coach K took. "Being" the national coach wasn't the trigger. George Karl and Larry Brown had team USA heading south and hard. 6-3 and 6th place in the 2002 World Games held in Indianapolis? 5-3 and a Bronze in the 2004 Olympics? It was like volunteering to captain the Titanic after hitting the iceberg.

What made the difference was Coach K SUCCEEDING as coach of team USA, and the fashion in which he did it. It was NOT his appointment to the position, it was his level of accomplishment while in the position.

[Kedsy]

Coach K got one season out of Luol Deng, Kris Humphries and Shaun Livingston combined. He made the Final Four that year, and coulda/shoulda won the title.

Those were three big recruits he landed during a 5-year period where Unc was the best program in college basketball. People were talking about how he had lost his touch, Duke was too white, etc. If those guys spend a combined 4-5 seasons, it might have had a huge snowball effect on recruiting.

I think your timing is a bit off. Deng, Humphries, and Livingston were "landed" during the D'oh years (Livingston may have committed during Roy's first (mediocre) year at UNC). Carolina was in disarray then. They didn't re-splash on the national scene until 2005.

Now, if your argument is we would have competed better in recruiting from 2006 to 2009 if we'd gotten more seasons out of these three recruits, then that might make more sense. We didn't get any top-5 recruits in those four years (although we did get a #6). Getting only two top-10 recruits in that four year period is a little less than the norm (though not much). Our ability to reel in top 20 and top 30 talent didn't appear to suffer at all in the period. Looking at it, maybe we would have gotten one or two more top recruits (or maybe not) -- I'm not sure there would have been that big a snowball.

[Troublemaker]

What you are forgetting is the huge risk Coach K took. "Being" the national coach wasn't the trigger. George Karl and Larry Brown had team USA heading south and hard. 6-3 and 6th place in the 2002 World Games held in Indianapolis? 5-3 and a Bronze in the 2004 Olympics? It was like volunteering to captain the Titanic after hitting the iceberg.

What made the difference was Coach K SUCCEEDING as coach of team USA, and the fashion in which he did it. It was NOT his appointment to the position, it was his level of accomplishment while in the position.

Yes, totally agreed. As Coach K says himself, if Duke has a recruiting advantage due to his involvement with USA basketball, it is an advantage earned through accomplishment. If USA had failed to win a gold medal in 2008, he probably would've been fired from the job. And, obviously, his appointment to the job was through accomplishment as well.

[superdave]

I think your timing is a bit off. Deng, Humphries, and Livingston were "landed" during the D'oh years (Livingston may have committed during Roy's first (mediocre) year at UNC). Carolina was in disarray then. They didn't re-splash on the national scene until 2005.

Now, if your argument is we would have competed better in recruiting from 2006 to 2009 if we'd gotten more seasons out of these three recruits, then that might make more sense. We didn't get any top-5 recruits in those four years (although we did get a #6). Getting only two top-10 recruits in that four year period is a little less than the norm (though not much). Our ability to reel in top 20 and top 30 talent didn't appear to suffer at all in the period. Looking at it, maybe we would have gotten one or two more top recruits (or maybe not) -- I'm not sure there would have been that big a snowball.


In an alternate universe, Humprhies and Deng win the title in 2004 then go pro, Livingston puts in two good seasons in 2005 and 2006 alongside JJ and Shelden and we get past the Sweet 16, at least, in those seasons because our talent was better and scoring more diverse. Say we have one title, another Final Four and an Elite 8. I think that begets recruiting success and more tournament success.

It may or may not be true, but I cannot help but feel that a Final Four in 2005 or 2006 would have helped us win over Brandan Wright in '06 who might have helped us win Greg Monroe in '08. It's all speculative, but my point is that Coach K was still winning big recruits even if they didnt show up in uniform (Humprhies/Livingston). Luck has a lot to do with the way that played out.

[flyingdutchdevil]

In an alternate universe, Humprhies and Deng win the title in 2004 then go pro, Livingston puts in two good seasons in 2005 and 2006 alongside JJ and Shelden and we get past the Sweet 16, at least, in those seasons because our talent was better and scoring more diverse. Say we have one title, another Final Four and an Elite 8. I think that begets recruiting success and more tournament success.

It may or may not be true, but I cannot help but feel that a Final Four in 2005 or 2006 would have helped us win over Brandan Wright in '06 who might have helped us win Greg Monroe in '08. It's all speculative, but my point is that Coach K was still winning big recruits even if they didnt show up in uniform (Humprhies/Livingston). Luck has a lot to do with the way that played out.

But every team in that era had a few players who committed and then went to the NBA. UNC had JR Smith. IU had Josh Smith. Oklahoma State had Gerald Green. UCONN had Bynum. Louisville had Telfair.

We can't merely look at Hump and Livingston without looking at the whole dynamics of college hoops at that time (and what a weird time for college ball).

[COYS]

Doesn't hurt that we one the 2010 title with "a band of misfit toys"... Our recruiting had faded since 2001 and really picked up after 2010.

Though... Uconns... didnt? I dunno

Remember, though, that Kyrie committed to Duke BEFORE we won the title. In fact, he committed to Duke during what was one of the worst off seasons in recent memory (UNC wins title number 5 after Duke gets blown out in the second half against Nova in the 2nd round then goes on to land the almost certain Duke commit Harrison Barnes that fall. Oh, and Gerald goes pro, Marty graduates, and Elliot Williams transfers to Memphis leaving us with Jon and Nolan plus an early-arriving Andre as our only guards). That 2010 title probably helped (it certainly didn't hurt, right?), but the recent surge in landing top 5 recruits (Kyrie, Austin, Jabari, Jah, Brandon, Tatum) started before we won the 2010 title.

[COYS]

Remember, though, that Kyrie committed to Duke BEFORE we won the title. In fact, he committed to Duke during what was one of the worst off seasons in recent memory (UNC wins title number 5 after Duke gets blown out in the second half against Nova in the 2nd round then goes on to land the almost certain Duke commit Harrison Barnes that fall. Oh, and Gerald goes pro, Marty graduates, and Elliot Williams transfers to Memphis leaving us with Jon and Nolan plus an early-arriving Andre as our only guards). That 2010 title probably helped (it certainly didn't hurt, right?), but the recent surge in landing top 5 recruits (Kyrie, Austin, Jabari, Jah, Brandon, Tatum) started before we won the 2010 title.

It's also worth noting that prior to this season's championship run, the period from 2007/08-2009/10, when we whiffed on a lot of our top 5 targets, wasn't really worse in terms of record and post season success when compared to 10/11-present. I picked this time frame because we got top ten guys when we recruited them hard in most of the previous classes (Gerald, Josh, Livingston even though he didn't show up, Luol, Shelden, etc). In some ways, it doesn't even make sense to include the recruiting class of 2007 because Kyle was a top 10 guy, but missing on Patterson mattered because we lacked size. Then, we missed on Monroe, meaning we still lacked size. Then we missed on Boynton and Wall. Still, during this time period Duke managed to win two ACC crowns ('09 and '10), win a Natty, and get to one Sweet 16, with a second round loss added in.

Since Kyrie, the first of the new wave of top 5 guys to step onto campus, Duke has won only one ACC title, lost in the first round twice (yikes!), made one elite 8 during a season that did not include a top 10 recruit, and then won a title. Prior to this year, some of us were concerned that Duke had yet to win featuring a star freshman and in fact had endured the Kyrie injury season in which the staff tried to bring back a star frosh even though the team without him was super talented and experienced (not faulting them for that), then the Austin and Jabari seasons which were our worst defensively in a quarter century and resulted in first round losses.

I'm not saying that the recruiting run Duke is on isn't good. I'm totally excited about it. However, it's worth noting that the "down" recruiting years of the high school classes of 2007-2009 still yielded a title and two ACC championships.

[superdave]

Remember, though, that Kyrie committed to Duke BEFORE we won the title. In fact, he committed to Duke during what was one of the worst off seasons in recent memory (UNC wins title number 5 after Duke gets blown out in the second half against Nova in the 2nd round then goes on to land the almost certain Duke commit Harrison Barnes that fall. Oh, and Gerald goes pro, Marty graduates, and Elliot Williams transfers to Memphis leaving us with Jon and Nolan plus an early-arriving Andre as our only guards). That 2010 title probably helped (it certainly didn't hurt, right?), but the recent surge in landing top 5 recruits (Kyrie, Austin, Jabari, Jah, Brandon, Tatum) started before we won the 2010 title.

I think losing Barnes unleashed Coach K, so I am good with how that worked out.

Super "Preseason All-Preseason" Dave

[rsvman]

So if we get Harry Giles, 2016 will be the first ever that we have gotten 2 top 5 picks (assuming rankings don't change).

I think Tyus Jones was in the top 5 in some rubrics. So one might consider Jah + Jones as 2 top 5 picks, depending on what ranking system one is considering.

[Kedsy]

I think Tyus Jones was in the top 5 in some rubrics. So one might consider Jah + Jones as 2 top 5 picks, depending on what ranking system one is considering.

ESPN ranked Tyus 4th, but I think they're the only major service who had him in the top 5.

[kAzE]

I think any way you look at it, having elite talent is preferable to not having elite talent. As long as we're recruiting a few fringe guys here and there who will stick around for a few years (Allen, Jefferson, etc.) to complement the elite 1-and-done talent, we should be fine. We've now won titles in the 1-and-done era with upperclassmen stars as well as freshmen, so there's no 1 way to do it.

I definitely think Capel and Scheyer have breathed new life into our recruiting. Capel's midwest connections are very strong from his tenure in the Big 12, and Scheyer looks to be a strong recruiting factor as well. I think he's well on his way to becoming the new Wojo. Although Wojo was made assistant as a 24 year old, Scheyer is still young and able to relate to young players. He also started at point guard for a national championship team, something that Wojo can't even claim. I think both he and Capel have been instrumental in our recent recruiting success.

[COYS]

I think any way you look at it, having elite talent is preferable to not having elite talent. As long as we're recruiting a few fringe guys here and there who will stick around for a few years (Allen, Jefferson, etc.) to complement the elite 1-and-done talent, we should be fine.

As long as we can consider top 30 recruits like Allen and Jefferson "fringe" guys, we are definitely doing pretty dang well on the recruiting trail =).

[Billy Dat]

I definitely think Capel and Scheyer have breathed new life into our recruiting. Capel's midwest connections are very strong from his tenure in the Big 12, and Scheyer looks to be a strong recruiting factor as well. I think he's well on his way to becoming the new Wojo. Although Wojo was made assistant as a 24 year old, Scheyer is still young and able to relate to young players. He also started at point guard for a national championship team, something that Wojo can't even claim. I think both he and Capel have been instrumental in our recent recruiting success.

The flurry of "Duke's Recruiting Prowess" press that has followed the Tatum signing have, as you point out and support, been including Scheyer as a key figure. I wonder what that says/means for Big Bad Nate? He's been on the bench longer yet Scheyer seems to have jumped him in the assistant coach importance rankings, at least from my non-insider perspective. Scheyer is obviously closer in age to these kids being only 27/28 himself compared to Nate's being a decade older. I wonder how he figures in the mix, is he a head coach in waiting at the D1 level?

[tbyers11]

The flurry of "Duke's Recruiting Prowess" press that has followed the Tatum signing have, as you point out and support, been including Scheyer as a key figure. I wonder what that says/means for Big Bad Nate? He's been on the bench longer yet Scheyer seems to have jumped him in the assistant coach importance rankings, at least from my non-insider perspective. Scheyer is obviously closer in age to these kids being only 27/28 himself compared to Nate's being a decade older. I wonder how he figures in the mix, is he a head coach in waiting at the D1 level?

I think you are reading too much into it.

As I understand it, each recruit we focus on has an assistant coach that is "in charge" of the recruitment. Scheyer was in charge of Tatum's recruitment.

I have no idea of the assistant coach importance rankings (although Capel is likely on top because of his head coaching experience) but I don't think which coach was lead recruiter for Tatum tells us much.

[Indoor66]

I think any way you look at it, having elite talent is preferable to not having elite talent. As long as we're recruiting a few fringe guys here and there who will stick around for a few years (Allen, Jefferson, etc.) to complement the elite 1-and-done talent, we should be fine.

I think you highly underestimate Allen. He well could be a 2 and done.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I think you highly underestimate Allen. He well could be a 2 and done.

Unfortunately, I agree. Allen is talented, athletic, and has decent size. Also, the draft next year is expected to be very weak (Harrison twins should have waited. Hehehehehe).

If Allen averages around 16 ppg (+/- 2), I think he's gone. Enjoy him while you can!

[wilko]

Attribute our recent hot streak to whoever, whatever you need to....

Capel was successful on his own before coming to back Durham so it not a HUGE surprise hes doing very well.
Team USA affiliation initially held us back - so we got Thornton and Hairston in that 1st pass of recruits....

However you Slice it..
K is poised to exit the game on his terms at the very pinnacle of success.

[kAzE]

I think you highly underestimate Allen. He well could be a 2 and done.

How did I underestimate Allen? I said he was on the fringe of being a 1-and-done player, which is exactly what you're suggesting. He could probably go pro after next year, but I think he stays longer than 2 years. This is a total guess, but he always said Duke was his dream school from an early age, and I think he wants to leave Duke with a legacy beyond his amazing performance as a freshman in the national championship, ESPECIALLY considering the talent we're looking to accumulate for 2016 in the front court.


Unfortunately, I agree. Allen is talented, athletic, and has decent size. Also, the draft next year is expected to be very weak (Harrison twins should have waited. Hehehehehe).

If Allen averages around 16 ppg (+/- 2), I think he's gone. Enjoy him while you can!

He easily could score that much on another team but, I think Ingram's talent demands the most touches on offense, and I believe Thornton will be the primary ball handler as long as he's in the game. I think thornton and Allen both average around 10-12 ppg. Allen might be the best candidate for relief point guard duties, so he may be counted on to do a bit of distributing as well. I see him averaging double figures, but 16 ppg is a lot. I think anyone who averages that much will lead the team in scoring.

[kAzE]

Unfortunately, I agree. Allen is talented, athletic, and has decent size. Also, the draft next year is expected to be very weak (Harrison twins should have waited. Hehehehehe).

If Allen averages around 16 ppg (+/- 2), I think he's gone. Enjoy him while you can!

Also, I'm not sure about that. If Allen was a point guard, he'd have ideal NBA size, but as a 2, it's pretty difficult to make a living at the next level as a 6-4 (and I believe he's generously listed at 6-4) shooting guard unless you are just an unbelievable defender or shooter. I'm not totally sure Allen is elite at either of those things at the pro level yet. Many 2 guards in the NBA are in the 6-5 to 6-7 range with long arms (James Harden, Paul George, Jimmy Butler, Klay Thompson, Kyle Korver) and 95% of guys who are stars in college become role players in the league, so I can see Allen staying 3 or 4 years to be the man at Duke a la JJ or Nolan Smith before trying his hand in the league.

Again, I'm not saying he couldn't go pro if he wanted to (many thought he could have been drafted this year), just that it might not necessarily be what he's interested in doing, or perhaps be the best, most rewarding career path.

[COYS]

Also, I'm not sure about that. If Allen was a point guard, he'd have ideal NBA size, but as a 2, it's pretty difficult to make a living at the next level as a 6-4 (and I believe he's generously listed at 6-4) shooting guard unless you are just an unbelievable defender or shooter. I'm not totally sure Allen is elite at either of those things at the pro level yet. Many 2 guards in the NBA are in the 6-5 to 6-7 range with long arms (James Harden, Paul George, Jimmy Butler, Klay Thompson, Kyle Korver) and 95% of guys who are stars in college become role players in the league, so I can see Allen staying 3 or 4 years to be the man at Duke a la JJ or Nolan Smith before trying his hand in the league.

Again, I'm not saying he couldn't go pro if he wanted to (many thought he could have been drafted this year), just that it might not necessarily be what he's interested in doing, or perhaps be the best, most rewarding career path.

I agree. His athleticism is impressive, but it's not otherworldly for the NBA. 6-3 shooting guards are rarely lottery picks. I haven't seen him on first round mocks for next year. To jump into the lottery, I think he'd have to have a NPOY type of season where he shows such a knack for scoring that teams are willing to overlook his lack of size. Alternatively, he could flash some serious playmaking skills that have thus far been hiding.

All that being said, I think Allen is going to be a star for Duke, possibly as soon as this next season. His championship game run will probably always be just about his most memorable moment, but I see him having quite a few more memorable games where he just can't miss and can't stop dunking. I HOPE he plays so well he does become a lottery pick. But if I were a betting man, I'd say that he's unlikely to move that high in the draft this season.

[kAzE]

I just hope nobody falls into the NCAA tournament scouting trap, where a kid has an amazing game or 2 in the NCAA tournament, sees his draft stock skyrocket, and then gets enormous expectations heaped on him. Let's re-adjust for a second here . . . yes, Grayson Allen showed flashes of brilliance last year, notably in the national championship game and his 27 point explosion at home against Wake Forest. I was campaigning for him to take all of Matt Jones' minutes since the season opener against Presbytarian. He's incredibly fun to watch. We all remember that.

He also barely got off the bench for the majority of the season (which matters, considering coaches got to see him every day in practice) and he shot just 42.5% from the field, 34.6% from the arc. He played with the best low post scorer in the country, the best pure point guard in the country, the closest thing to LeBron James in college basketball, and a senior point guard who had a career best year shooting the ball. It's easy to get buckets when defenses are game planning for other threats. Those guys are all gone. I expect him to have a much larger role this year, but he's not going to become JJ Redick overnight. Heck, I think Jon Scheyer had a more impressive freshman season, and we all know how his pro career turned out. So let's just temper expectations a tad, and hope for the best.

[johnb]

Agree about
Austin. An important player for us.

I dunno. I'd guess many of our players contributed to future recruiting through some combo of charisma and awesome play, but I don't recall anybody who said they came to Duke because of Rivers.

[MarkD83]

I dunno. I'd guess many of our players contributed to future recruiting through some combo of charisma and awesome play, but I don't recall anybody who said they came to Duke because of Rivers.

However, I am sure that his shot at UNC to win the game is in a highlight reel that is shown to recruits in order to describe why they should come to Duke.

[revmel53]

I think you highly underestimate Allen. He well could be a 2 and done.

I absolutely love Grayson, but I find it hard to believe that many are thinking he "well could be" a 2 and done. I am praying that I am wrong, because if he continues to play at his Championship Game caliber, then with all that we have, and all that is coming in, we will be hard to beat. But he, still has so much to prove.

[CameronDuke]

Capel has long had an eye for great recruits. Eric Maynor comes to mind - Capel was one of a few college coaches to give him an offer and he became arguably the best player in VCU history. Also, that Blake Griffin fella at Oklahoma was pretty good, too.

[BD80]

Capel has long had an eye for great recruits. Eric Maynor comes to mind - Capel was one of a few college coaches to give him an offer and he became arguably the best player in VCU history. Also, that Blake Griffin fella at Oklahoma was pretty good, too.

Didn't Oklahoma already have Blake's brother on the team when Capel took over?

[CameronDuke]

Didn't Oklahoma already have Blake's brother on the team when Capel took over?

Yes that is correct.

[BD80]

Didn't Oklahoma already have Blake's brother on the team when Capel took over?


Yes that is correct.

So we shouldn't necessarily use Griffin as an evidence of Jeff's recruiting prowess. The prior staff did much of the work by landing Blake's brother.

[Troublemaker]

https://scontent-iad3-1.cdninstagram.com/hphotos-xaf1/l/t51.2885-15/11410558_868818086531027_875288509_n.jpg

[flyingdutchdevil]

https://scontent-iad3-1.cdninstagram.com/hphotos-xaf1/l/t51.2885-15/11410558_868818086531027_875288509_n.jpg

Baller. Duke bball marketing ain't so bad.

Sidenote: Kobe? Really? Can't you replace him with [Harden / Kyrie / Paul George / CP3 / anyone else]? Kobe is a legend, but he's a legend with 1 leg and 6 games played in the last 3 years (an exaggeration, I know. But you get my point).

[Ichabod Drain]

Baller. Duke bball marketing ain't so bad.

Sidenote: Kobe? Really? Can't you replace him with [Harden / Kyrie / Paul George / CP3 / anyone else]? Kobe is a legend, but he's a legend with 1 leg and 6 games played in the last 3 years (an exaggeration, I know. But you get my point).

None of those guys were MVPs.

[flyingdutchdevil]

None of those guys were MVPs.

None of our recruits saw Kobe in his prime ;)

[JasonEvans]

None of our recruits saw Kobe in his prime ;)

At what age do we become aware of stars in various sports and begin to idolize them? Is it as young as 6? It is certainly in place by the time we are 10. So, for a current 18 year old (which is the age of our incoming recruits) here are their ages and Kobe's scoring average at each age.

Age 6 - Kobe averaged 30.0 ppg
Age 7 - Kobe averaged 24.0 ppg
Age 8 - Kobe averaged 27.6 ppg
Age 9 - Kobe averaged 35.4 ppg
Age 10 - Kobe averaged 31.6 ppg and Kobe was the All-star game MVP
Age 11 - Kobe averaged 28.3 ppg and Kobe was the MVP of the league
Age 12 - Kobe averaged 26.8 ppg and the Lakers won the title. Kobe was also the All-star game MVP
Age 13 - Kobe averaged 27.0 ppg and the Lakers won the title
Age 14 - Kobe averaged 25.3 ppg, this was the year Kobe scored 37 in the All-star game
Age 15 - Kobe averaged 27.9 ppg
Age 16 - Kobe averaged 27.3 ppg
Age 17 - Kobe averaged 13.8 ppg
Age 18 - Kobe averaged 22.3 ppg

Also, from ages 9 - 16 (every year!!!) Kobe finished in the top 5 in the NBA MVP voting that season.

So, while it is true that Kobe is not today nearly as great as he once was, not even close, for current high schoolers their formative years featured the dominant Kobe Bryant. In some ways, that makes Kobe even more influential on the current high schoolers than Kevin Durant may be.

-Jason "It will be at least 4 or 5 years until we start coming across kids who do not recall Kobe Bryant as one of the best players in the NBA" Evans

[flyingdutchdevil]

At what age do we become aware of stars in various sports and begin to idolize them? Is it as young as 6? It is certainly in place by the time we are 10. So, for a current 18 year old (which is the age of our incoming recruits) here are their ages and Kobe's scoring average at each age.

Age 6 - Kobe averaged 30.0 ppg
Age 7 - Kobe averaged 24.0 ppg
Age 8 - Kobe averaged 27.6 ppg
Age 9 - Kobe averaged 35.4 ppg
Age 10 - Kobe averaged 31.6 ppg and Kobe was the All-star game MVP
Age 11 - Kobe averaged 28.3 ppg and Kobe was the MVP of the league
Age 12 - Kobe averaged 26.8 ppg and the Lakers won the title. Kobe was also the All-star game MVP
Age 13 - Kobe averaged 27.0 ppg and the Lakers won the title
Age 14 - Kobe averaged 25.3 ppg, this was the year Kobe scored 37 in the All-star game
Age 15 - Kobe averaged 27.9 ppg
Age 16 - Kobe averaged 27.3 ppg
Age 17 - Kobe averaged 13.8 ppg
Age 18 - Kobe averaged 22.3 ppg

Also, from ages 9 - 16 (every year!!!) Kobe finished in the top 5 in the NBA MVP voting that season.

So, while it is true that Kobe is not today nearly as great as he once was, not even close, for current high schoolers their formative years featured the dominant Kobe Bryant. In some ways, that makes Kobe even more influential on the current high schoolers than Kevin Durant may be.

-Jason "It will be at least 4 or 5 years until we start coming across kids who do not recall Kobe Bryant as one of the best players in the NBA" Evans

I was being facetious, and I understand that Kobe will end his career as a top 5 SG. But my main point is that there are many players in the NBA who are "hotter" right now. High schoolers want to be like Harden and Kyrie rather than Kobe.

[Ichabod Drain]

I was being facetious, and I understand that Kobe will end his career as a top 5 SG. But my main point is that there are many players in the NBA who are "hotter" right now. High schoolers want to be like Harden and Kyrie rather than Kobe.

I agree but what would be the theme of that poster? "Coach K's influence on guys high school ballers think are cool"

[flyingdutchdevil]

I agree but what would be the theme of that poster? "Coach K's influence on guys high school ballers think are cool"

Yeah. Isn't that what the poster is trying to achieve in the first place? It's marketing for Coach K and hence Duke basketball.

[Ichabod Drain]

Yeah. Isn't that what the poster is trying to achieve in the first place? It's marketing for Coach K and hence Duke basketball.

I guess, but high school kids probably think its pretty cool to be the MVP of the NBA as well.

[Billy Dat]

So, while it is true that Kobe is not today nearly as great as he once was, not even close, for current high schoolers their formative years featured the dominant Kobe Bryant. In some ways, that makes Kobe even more influential on the current high schoolers than Kevin Durant may be.

-Jason "It will be at least 4 or 5 years until we start coming across kids who do not recall Kobe Bryant as one of the best players in the NBA" Evans

I also think that the internet, via YouTube, and the nostalgia engine that is NBA TV, make the past part of the present in a very real way. Nothing really fades anymore because the video exploits of a player like Kobe are available to any interested kid on his device of choice. I assume Kobe will only grow in prominence as the years go on.

[kmspeaks]

I was being facetious, and I understand that Kobe will end his career as a top 5 SG. But my main point is that there are many players in the NBA who are "hotter" right now. High schoolers want to be like Harden and Kyrie rather than Kobe.

I spent my first 3 summers in college, 06-08, working summer camp at the local Boys & Girls Club. When we had free time in the gym the kids used to do a little move, put up a jump shot, and yell "Kobe" when the ball was on the way. Now I'm teaching high school and my students do the same thing when they're throwing paper in the trash. Kobe Bryant is still very relevant to high school kids.

[Olympic Fan]

I also think that the internet, via YouTube, and the nostalgia engine that is NBA TV, make the past part of the present in a very real way. Nothing really fades anymore because the video exploits of a player like Kobe are available to any interested kid on his device of choice. I assume Kobe will only grow in prominence as the years go on.

Didn't Harrison Barnes talk about how much his admiration of Michael Jordan convinced him to attend UNC?

He was six years old when Jordan played his last year in Chicago -- his last year as a superstar. After a three year layoff, he came back and played two so-so seasons in Washington when Barnes was 9-10 years old, but that's hardly the kind of thing that would impress a kid for life.

I suspect that Billy, you are right -- that in the ESPN age, the great players in the ESPN era are replayed and highlighted and talked about so that they can impact kids that either never did or barely saw them in their prime.

It's Bill Russell's misfortune that he played before the ESPN era, hence all we have of him are his numbers and kids don't grow up being told that he was the greatest player of all time (which he was).

[Stray Gator]

Didn't Harrison Barnes talk about how much his admiration of Michael Jordan convinced him to attend UNC?

He was six years old when Jordan played his last year in Chicago -- his last year as a superstar. After a three year layoff, he came back and played two so-so seasons in Washington when Barnes was 9-10 years old, but that's hardly the kind of thing that would impress a kid for life.

I suspect that Billy, you are right -- that in the ESPN age, the great players in the ESPN era are replayed and highlighted and talked about so that they can impact kids that either never did or barely saw them in their prime.

It's Bill Russell's misfortune that he played before the ESPN era, hence all we have of him are his numbers and kids don't grow up being told that he was the greatest player of all time (which he was).

I think that Barnes' admiration for Michael Jordan should be regarded as a special case, because according to reports that I recall, Barnes' mother idolized Jordan -- in fact, I believe that Harrison's middle name is Jordan -- and she played videos of Jordan and extolled his virtues to Harrison when he was a child.

[cato]

ESPN ranked Tyus 4th, but I think they're the only major service who had him in the top 5.

Chalk one up for ESPN, then

[JasonEvans]

ESPN ranked Tyus 4th, but I think they're the only major service who had him in the top 5.

Chalk one up for ESPN, then

Not to be argumentative, but... do you think Tyus was one of the 5 best freshmen basketball players in America last season?

To me, there is no question that Jahlil, KA Towns, and D'Angello Russell were better. I think a pretty good case can be made that Justise was better (even if you think they are close to equal on offense, Justise is a vastly better defender). Stanley Johnson was pretty darn good for Arizona. So was Rashad Vaughn at UNLV. Kevon Looney was pretty darn impressive at UCLA, did you know he hit 41% of his threes for them and averaged 9+ rebounds per game? I wonder what kind of numbers Devin Booker would have put up at Kentucky if he had actually gotten playing time and been able to play without the ballhog twins.

I'm not saying Tyus was for sure not among the top 5, but it is very much debatable, in my mind. I think any rating service that had him between 5 and 9 got it right.

-Jason "Just my opinion..." Evans

[Tripping William]

I think that Barnes' admiration for Michael Jordan should be regarded as a special case, because according to reports that I recall, Barnes' mother idolized Jordan -- in fact, I believe that Harrison's middle name is Jordan -- and she played videos of Jordan and extolled his virtues to Harrison when he was a child.

Omitting, of course, the gambling, the womanizing, and the cigars (all allegedly). :rolleyes:

[BD80]

Omitting, of course, the gambling, the womanizing, and the cigars (all allegedly). :rolleyes:

The baseball playing ...

(I still maintain that his mini-retirement was an under the table suspension for his gambling)

[Tripping William]

The baseball playing ...

(I still maintain that his mini-retirement was an under the table suspension for his gambling)

And the video of the HOF induction speech.

[duke blue brewcrew]

First - I live in Atlanta. Second - I'm not trying to start any rumors, or promote them in social media. I have an ignorant question for anyone in the local Raleigh, Durham & Chapel Hell area. One of my best friends, who lives in Raleigh and is a diehard Tarhole fan, is telling me that the local media is beginning to talk about a possible Jeff Capel/Haydn "Fats" Thomas relationship. Is there any truth to this, or has anyone heard anything similar, OR is this a case of a good friend having fun with a buddy while trying to make himself feel better about the Tarholes circling the drain on the fast track to the Gates of Hell?

[jimsumner]

First - I live in Atlanta. Second - I'm not trying to start any rumors, or promote them in social media. I have an ignorant question for anyone in the local Raleigh, Durham & Chapel Hell area. One of my best friends, who lives in Raleigh and is a diehard Tar Heel fan, is telling me that the local media is beginning to talk about a possible Jeff Capel/Haydn "Fats" Thomas relationship. Is there any truth to this, or has anyone heard anything similar, OR is this a case of a good friend having fun with a buddy while trying to make himself feel better about the Tar Heels circling the drain on the fast track to the Gates of Hell?

I'll take circling the drain for 400, Alex.

[devildeac]

I'll take circling the drain for 400, Alex.


http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/gameshows/images/d/d8/Jeopardy!_Season_27_Daily_Double_Logo.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20121108082603

[Merlindevildog91]

First - I live in Atlanta. Second - I'm not trying to start any rumors, or promote them in social media. I have an ignorant question for anyone in the local Raleigh, Durham & Chapel Hell area. One of my best friends, who lives in Raleigh and is a diehard Tar Heel fan, is telling me that the local media is beginning to talk about a possible Jeff Capel/Haydn "Fats" Thomas relationship. Is there any truth to this, or has anyone heard anything similar, OR is this a case of a good friend having fun with a buddy while trying to make himself feel better about the Tar Heels circling the drain on the fast track to the Gates of Hell?

IC is spewing some nonsense about a connection between Coach Capel and Fats. Frankly, most people I know cannot do the anatomical yoga to find this believable, and I can't go over there long without emptying the contents of my stomach, but there are some sheep fans who believe that Harry Giles is a done deal to Duke based on the recruitment efforts of Coach Capel and Fats Thomas. I suspect these are the same people who think Fats Thomas did not violate anything by loaning vehicles to PJ Hairston.

[NashvilleDevil]

I agree but what would be the theme of that poster? "Coach K's influence on guys high school ballers think are cool"

5299

Is the fella on the right cool enough?

[BD80]

First - I live in Atlanta. Second - I'm not trying to start any rumors, or promote them in social media. I have an ignorant question for anyone in the local Raleigh, Durham & Chapel Hell area. One of my best friends, who lives in Raleigh and is a diehard Tar Heel fan, is telling me that the local media is beginning to talk about a possible Jeff Capel/Haydn "Fats" Thomas relationship....

Take me through the logic here. It would be wrong in the eyes of the heels for there to be a Capel/Fats relationship, but the use of Fats' cars by heel players was OK?

[duke blue brewcrew]

I'll take circling the drain for 400, Alex.


IC is spewing some nonsense about a connection between Coach Capel and Fats. Frankly, most people I know cannot do the anatomical yoga to find this believable, and I can't go over there long without emptying the contents of my stomach, but there are some sheep fans who believe that Harry Giles is a done deal to Duke based on the recruitment efforts of Coach Capel and Fats Thomas. I suspect these are the same people who think Fats Thomas did not violate anything by loaning vehicles to PJ Hairston.

Thanks for the feedback gents. I googled any angle I could think of to produce search results and came up empty. I'm not surprised to hear that this is the byproduct of IC knuckleheads.

[Olympic Fan]

The Fats Thomas/Jeff Capel slander is probably the work of Edelman PR, which is being paid millions to help UNC paint a happy face on this scandal. Among Edelman's other activities, it's believed they originated the "UNC basketball and football won't be punished" meme. They have also spent a lot of time on social media, invading message boards and cogging the comment sections of national news stories.

As for Fats Thomas, I haven't heard much of his activities lately, but back in 2012-13 when he was heading the UNC "Wheels for Heels" campaign, he was operating out of the office of two huge UNC boosters -- who ran a dental practice (and had a lot to do with the bogus hire of Tami Hansbrough as a fundraiser at UNC).

It stretches credibility to think that the UNC operative in 2012-13 would suddenly be working to help Duke now.

Why are so many UNC fans buying it? They still can't believe that they aren't getting the best players in North Carolina. If Harry Giles is going to Duke (as most experts expect), it can't be because he sees K as the best coach with the best track record of using one-and-done players successfully (as opposed to Roy, who is now widely perceived as a coach who holds NBA-talent back; not to mention the pending NCAA penalties, which the UNC fan base believes -- thanks to Edelman -- that won't touch basketball). It must be because Fats Thomas is passing out $50,000 rental cars, right? After all, that worked to get PJ Hairston to stay at UNC!

[duke blue brewcrew]

The Fats Thomas/Jeff Capel slander is probably the work of Edelman PR, which is being paid millions to help UNC paint a happy face on this scandal. Among Edelman's other activities, it's believed they originated the "UNC basketball and football won't be punished" meme. They have also spent a lot of time on social media, invading message boards and cogging the comment sections of national news stories.

As for Fats Thomas, I haven't heard much of his activities lately, but back in 2012-13 when he was heading the UNC "Wheels for Heels" campaign, he was operating out of the office of two huge UNC boosters -- who ran a dental practice (and had a lot to do with the bogus hire of Tami Hansbrough as a fundraiser at UNC).

It stretches credibility to think that the UNC operative in 2012-13 would suddenly be working to help Duke now.

Why are so many UNC fans buying it? They still can't believe that they aren't getting the best players in North Carolina. If Harry Giles is going to Duke (as most experts expect), it can't be because he sees K as the best coach with the best track record of using one-and-done players successfully (as opposed to Roy, who is now widely perceived as a coach who holds NBA-talent back; not to mention the pending NCAA penalties, which the UNC fan base believes -- thanks to Edelman -- that won't touch basketball). It must be because Fats Thomas is passing out $50,000 rental cars, right? After all, that worked to get PJ Hairston to stay at UNC!

As always, great info and feedback. Much appreciated. I suspected something of this nature was the root of my buddy's comments, he has clearly drank way too much of the IC kool-aid and it's sad. However, it does make for fun conversations!

[Merlindevildog91]

Take me through the logic here. It would be wrong in the eyes of the heels for there to be a Capel/Fats relationship, but the use of Fats' cars by heel players was OK?

None of us can do the anatomical yoga that the sheep can do, therefore they can see this as logical and we cannot. They are more practiced at sticking their heads up their....

[Merlindevildog91]

The Fats Thomas/Jeff Capel slander is probably the work of Edelman PR, which is being paid millions to help UNC paint a happy face on this scandal. Among Edelman's other activities, it's believed they originated the "UNC basketball and football won't be punished" meme. They have also spent a lot of time on social media, invading message boards and cogging the comment sections of national news stories.

As for Fats Thomas, I haven't heard much of his activities lately, but back in 2012-13 when he was heading the UNC "Wheels for Heels" campaign, he was operating out of the office of two huge UNC boosters -- who ran a dental practice (and had a lot to do with the bogus hire of Tami Hansbrough as a fundraiser at UNC).

It stretches credibility to think that the UNC operative in 2012-13 would suddenly be working to help Duke now.

Why are so many UNC fans buying it? They still can't believe that they aren't getting the best players in North Carolina. If Harry Giles is going to Duke (as most experts expect), it can't be because he sees K as the best coach with the best track record of using one-and-done players successfully (as opposed to Roy, who is now widely perceived as a coach who holds NBA-talent back; not to mention the pending NCAA penalties, which the UNC fan base believes -- thanks to Edelman -- that won't touch basketball). It must be because Fats Thomas is passing out $50,000 rental cars, right? After all, that worked to get PJ Hairston to stay at UNC!

Back then, there was a lot swirling around dentistry. IIRC, Fats' wife/POSLQ was a dentist and unc grad, and Leslie McDonald got his suspension for modeling a mouth guard that was made by a company owned by dental grads/boosters. Bringing to mind Chazz and Sage Surratt, the more things change, the more they stay the same.

Oly, I tried to spork you, but I am not promiscuous enough.

[duke blue brewcrew]

Take me through the logic here. It would be wrong in the eyes of the heels for there to be a Capel/Fats relationship, but the use of Fats' cars by heel players was OK?

Sorry I missed this initially. I can't walk you through any trail of logic being used to formulate this theory. A - Logic doesn't apply to fantasy land. B - Very little was said (via text) other than that the local press was starting to talk about a Capel/Fats relationship and that he wasn't pulling my chain.

[Olympic Fan]

None of us can do the anatomical yoga that the sheep can do, therefore they can see this as logical and we cannot. They are more practiced at sticking their heads up their....

IC logic is an oxymoron.

If you visit IC (be sure to wear a haz-mat suit), you'll see that there are posters who insist that K has sold his soul for one-and-done players, while Roy has maintained his commitment to academics and long-term players and would never emulate K and Calipari.

It doesn't matter than even some of their own posters have pointed out that Roy has recruited almost every one-and-done player Duke has signed -- as well as a dozen more who have wound up at Kentucky, Kansas, Cal and a variety of other schools. He's recruiting them ... just not getting them.

On the other hand, it's possible to argue that guys like Justise or Tyus Jones wouldn't have been OAD at UNC. After all, Justin Jackson was ranked higher in high school than Justise (and five other OAD players) and he's not OAD. Harrison Barnes was the No. 1 ranked player in the country and Roy held him back two years. James Michael McAdoo was a lottery pick after his freshman year (which he spent coming off the bench) and after three years under Roy, he was undraftable. John Henson and Tyus Lawson were top five recruits who he held back for three years. Tyus would have spent his freshman year at UNC coming off the bench behind Nate Britt for at least half a season ... don't laugh, Kendall Marshall, the most prolific playmaker in ACC history, spent the first half of his freshman season backing up Larry Drew.

[Steven43]

I think your timing is a bit off. Deng, Humphries, and Livingston were "landed" during the D'oh years (Livingston may have committed during Roy's first (mediocre) year at UNC). Carolina was in disarray then. They didn't re-splash on the national scene until 2005.

Now, if your argument is we would have competed better in recruiting from 2006 to 2009 if we'd gotten more seasons out of these three recruits, then that might make more sense. We didn't get any top-5 recruits in those four years (although we did get a #6). Getting only two top-10 recruits in that four year period is a little less than the norm (though not much). Our ability to reel in top 20 and top 30 talent didn't appear to suffer at all in the period. Looking at it, maybe we would have gotten one or two more top recruits (or maybe not) -- I'm not sure there would have been that big a snowball.
I don't know how the rest of you feel, but to me Kedsy is the most logical, well-reasoned, fact-based (with statistics) poster on this entire board. I don't know if he has more time than the rest of us to formulate and back-up his opinions, or if he simply is just that much smarter--depending upon how you define it, of course. The closest thing to Spock we will ever have on DBR. I would put him up against any poster that has ever ventured onto IC. Man, I would love to see him destroy Wheat sometime. Speaking of my favorite UNC fan, I haven't heard from him lately. Hope he's okay.

[yancem]

I just hope nobody falls into the NCAA tournament scouting trap, where a kid has an amazing game or 2 in the NCAA tournament, sees his draft stock skyrocket, and then gets enormous expectations heaped on him. Let's re-adjust for a second here . . . yes, Grayson Allen showed flashes of brilliance last year, notably in the national championship game and his 27 point explosion at home against Wake Forest. I was campaigning for him to take all of Matt Jones' minutes since the season opener against Presbytarian. He's incredibly fun to watch. We all remember that.

He also barely got off the bench for the majority of the season (which matters, considering coaches got to see him every day in practice) and he shot just 42.5% from the field, 34.6% from the arc. He played with the best low post scorer in the country, the best pure point guard in the country, the closest thing to LeBron James in college basketball, and a senior point guard who had a career best year shooting the ball. It's easy to get buckets when defenses are game planning for other threats. Those guys are all gone. I expect him to have a much larger role this year, but he's not going to become JJ Redick overnight. Heck, I think Jon Scheyer had a more impressive freshman season, and we all know how his pro career turned out. So let's just temper expectations a tad, and hope for the best.

I don't disagree with your point and think that it would be wise to keep expectations for Allen reasonable but I do think you can make a reasonable argument that the reason "he barely got off the bench for the majority of the season" was because he "played with the best low post scorer in the country, the best pure point guard in the country, the closest thing to LeBron James in college basketball, and a senior point guard who had a career best year shooting the ball." When he did get significant time, he usually played pretty well. By most accounts he is a very good shooter so I would expect his percentages to go up with more consistent PT and with the other 3 freshman and Cook gone, he should get as much PT as he can handle. It will be interesting to see how he handles the bigger role next season. I think that Ingram is probably going to be the "it" player but I wouldn't be too surprised if Allen is a strong Robin or possibly even becomes Batman. That kid looked to attack every chance he touched the ball last year. If he can keep that attitude all next season (and not kill himself) he will be a lot of fun to watch.

[BD80]

I don't know how the rest of you feel, but to me Kedsy is the most logical, well-reasoned, fact-based (with statistics) poster on this entire board. I don't know if he has more time than the rest of us to formulate and back-up his opinions, or if he simply is just that much smarter--depending upon how you define it, of course. The closest thing to Spock we will ever have on DBR. I would put him up against any poster that has ever ventured onto IC. Man, I would love to see him destroy Wheat sometime. Speaking of my favorite UNC fan, I haven't heard from him lately. Hope he's okay.

Even those of us that have known him for nearly 40 years would have to (grudgingly) agree.

Dude is as smart as I imagine I am.

He is more Leonard Nimoy Spock than Zachary Quinto Spock. However, he is more Sheldon Cooper than Spock.

He is also outrageously promiscuous. I think he has been sporked by every poster on these boards (even Wheat), and sporked multiple times by most.

[ChillinDuke]

Even those of us that have known him for nearly 40 years would have to (grudgingly) agree.

Dude is as smart as I imagine I am.

He is more Leonard Nimoy Spock than Zachary Quinto Spock. However, he is more Sheldon Cooper than Spock.

He is also outrageously promiscuous. I think he has been sporked by every poster on these boards (even Wheat), and sporked multiple times by most.

Should've named the field after him...

- Chillin :D

[COYS]

I don't disagree with your point and think that it would be wise to keep expectations for Allen reasonable but I do think you can make a reasonable argument that the reason "he barely got off the bench for the majority of the season" was because he "played with the best low post scorer in the country, the best pure point guard in the country, the closest thing to LeBron James in college basketball, and a senior point guard who had a career best year shooting the ball." When he did get significant time, he usually played pretty well. By most accounts he is a very good shooter so I would expect his percentages to go up with more consistent PT and with the other 3 freshman and Cook gone, he should get as much PT as he can handle. It will be interesting to see how he handles the bigger role next season. I think that Ingram is probably going to be the "it" player but I wouldn't be too surprised if Allen is a strong Robin or possibly even becomes Batman. That kid looked to attack every chance he touched the ball last year. If he can keep that attitude all next season (and not kill himself) he will be a lot of fun to watch.

I think an interesting analog for Grayson is actually Gerald (with the caveat that . Both are extremely strong dribblers to their strong hand. Both have excellent hops that help them finish around the rim. Neither is particularly well suited to get others involved in the offense. Heck, we even ran what I call the Gerald play (although it's been used by the staff for many years for many different guys) during the title game where we gave Grayson the ball around the three point line above the left elbow, cleared everyone out, and just had him put his head down and drive it right as hard as he could. We used to to run this for Gerald all the time. We even had a particularly effective sideline inbound play to Gerald that was based off this idea. Anyway, back to the point. Gerald struggled to fully fit in with the offense because he often stopped the ball. By the time his junior year rolled around, he was so much better on offense that it didn't matter if he stopped the ball to take his man one on one or put up one of his beautiful mid-range J's. Gerald also got better at making his move faster or making a pass to keep the offense in flow. However, it took him a little while to gain that consistency (and the wrist injury during his sophomore campaign didn't help). Grayson will need to make sure that while he's in attack mode he also keeps his efficiency up. The fact that Grayson can shoot threes far better than Gerald (at least by reputation) will probably go a long way towards keeping his efficiency up. However, considering that the offense will most likely be built around Brandon next season, it will be important for Grayson to receive the ball, look to attack, but if nothing is there, keep the ball moving. If he can balance his aggressive drives with the basketball IQ to know when he's got his man beat and when he would be better served to keep the ball moving, I think he can really become a special player. However, if he doesn't know when to pick his spots, he could have trouble fitting in with Brandon. Personally, I think Grayson's gonna have some really big games for us next year when he just can't be stopped a la the title game.

What does this have to do with recruiting? I have no idea. I'm going to blame it on the offseason . . . And maybe add that I think Grayson's upside is much higher than many players outside the top 10, especially if we just consider what he could do to NCAA competition. His leaping ability combined with his reputably excellent three point shot is going to make him a very tough cover for our opponents.

[MChambers]

Even those of us that have known him for nearly 40 years would have to (grudgingly) agree.

Dude is as smart as I imagine I am.

He is more Leonard Nimoy Spock than Zachary Quinto Spock. However, he is more Sheldon Cooper than Spock.

He is also outrageously promiscuous. I think he has been sporked by every poster on these boards (even Wheat), and sporked multiple times by most.
Is Kedsy a flesh and blood human being or just some sort of cyborg?

[BD80]

Is Kedsy a flesh and blood human being or just some sort of cyborg?

No memory device has been yet devised that can store all of the sports related information and statistics currently residing in that which we call Kedsy.

[Indoor66]

No memory device has been yet devised that can store all of the sports related information and statistics currently residing in that which we call Kedsy.

No disrespect to Kedsy but we did have a poster named Jumbo who knew a little BB.

[JohnJ]

He is also outrageously promiscuous. I think he has been sporked by every poster on these boards (even Wheat), and sporked multiple times by most.

I haven't sporked Kedsy - but then I haven't sporked anyone. I am still trying to figure out how to do it!

[gep]

No disrespect to Kedsy but we did have a poster named Jumbo who knew a little BB.

I don't suppose (one in the same?)....:confused:

[NSDukeFan]

I don't suppose (one in the same?)....:confused:

I've never seen them in the same place.


I've never seen any posters at all, let alone in the same place. Is everyone just one person, writing as different aliases?

[Saratoga2]

I don't disagree with your point and think that it would be wise to keep expectations for Allen reasonable but I do think you can make a reasonable argument that the reason "he barely got off the bench for the majority of the season" was because he "played with the best low post scorer in the country, the best pure point guard in the country, the closest thing to LeBron James in college basketball, and a senior point guard who had a career best year shooting the ball." When he did get significant time, he usually played pretty well. By most accounts he is a very good shooter so I would expect his percentages to go up with more consistent PT and with the other 3 freshman and Cook gone, he should get as much PT as he can handle. It will be interesting to see how he handles the bigger role next season. I think that Ingram is probably going to be the "it" player but I wouldn't be too surprised if Allen is a strong Robin or possibly even becomes Batman. That kid looked to attack every chance he touched the ball last year. If he can keep that attitude all next season (and not kill himself) he will be a lot of fun to watch.


Maybe Brandon Ingram will be the #1 scoring option on the team but of the recruits, Luke Kennard will likely be the #2 scoring option. If Grayson can continue his climb on this team he can be the main scoring option remaining from last years team. Only time will tell if Luke or Grayson is the more important scorer for the team.

[OldPhiKap]

Kedsey pwns KenPom.

[brevity]

I don't know how the rest of you feel, but to me Kedsy is the most logical, well-reasoned, fact-based (with statistics) poster on this entire board. I don't know if he has more time than the rest of us to formulate and back-up his opinions, or if he simply is just that much smarter--depending upon how you define it, of course. The closest thing to Spock we will ever have on DBR. I would put him up against any poster that has ever ventured onto IC. Man, I would love to see him destroy Wheat sometime. Speaking of my favorite UNC fan, I haven't heard from him lately. Hope he's okay.

Having conquered Mt. Rushmore, maybe DBR needs to tackle the Star Trek bridge? Seems only logical.

[Kedsy]

Maybe Brandon Ingram will be the #1 scoring option on the team but of the recruits, Luke Kennard will likely be the #2 scoring option. If Grayson can continue his climb on this team he can be the main scoring option remaining from last years team. Only time will tell if Luke or Grayson is the more important scorer for the team.

What makes you say this? What about Luke Kennard, who has never played college ball and whose recruiting rank this year is similar to Grayson's last year, suggests to you that he will be a better scorer as a freshman than sophomore Grayson Allen will be?

[SilkyJ]

What makes you say this? What about Luke Kennard, who has never played college ball and whose recruiting rank this year is similar to Grayson's last year, suggests to you that he will be a better scorer as a freshman than sophomore Grayson Allen will be?

Saratoga can speak for himself, but he said "of the recruits" (and that was the title of his post if you look back), so I interpreted his statement to mean that when looking at the incoming recruits and their given strengths and abilities, Kennard would be the 2nd best scorer of the bunch.

However, calling him the #2 scoring option among the recruits isn't the same as saying the 2nd best scorer among the recruits. Calling him the #2 scoring options isn't really the right way to put it b/c that's dependent on other factors like the rotation. For example, if Chase and Thornton both start and play a bunch and Luke ends up as the 8th/9th man given our depth on the wing, well then Chase and Thornton are likely to take more shots and score more points and will likely be "ahead" of Luke as scoring options.



Maybe Brandon Ingram will be the #1 scoring option on the team but of the recruits, Luke Kennard will likely be the #2 scoring option. If Grayson can continue his climb on this team he can be the main scoring option remaining from last years team. Only time will tell if Luke or Grayson is the more important scorer for the team.

[BD80]

Kedsy kicks puppies

[Kedsy]

Saratoga can speak for himself, but he said "of the recruits" (and that was the title of his post if you look back), so I interpreted his statement to mean that when looking at the incoming recruits and their given strengths and abilities, Kennard would be the 2nd best scorer of the bunch.

However, calling him the #2 scoring option among the recruits isn't the same as saying the 2nd best scorer among the recruits. Calling him the #2 scoring options isn't really the right way to put it b/c that's dependent on other factors like the rotation. For example, if Chase and Thornton both start and play a bunch and Luke ends up as the 8th/9th man given our depth on the wing, well then Chase and Thornton are likely to take more shots and score more points and will likely be "ahead" of Luke as scoring options.

You could be right. I may have misinterpreted his remarks if he mixed discussion of the team's #1 option and the recruits' #2 option in the same sentence.

And, just to be entirely clear, I have never kicked a puppy. :p

[Indoor66]

You could be right. I may have misinterpreted his remarks if he mixed discussion of the team's #1 option and the recruits' #2 option in the same sentence.

And, just to be entirely clear, I have never kicked a puppy. :p

How about a I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. cat?