Duke baseball, compared to Vandy and UVa's successes

[Reilly]

I don't follow college baseball all that much. I believe teams can award 11.7 scholarships or something like that.

Noticed that Vandy and UVa are two of the final four left in the CWS. Southern, academically-oriented schools.

Why is Vandy so good in baseball? Know they've been good for a while (David Price, etc..). And UVa had an infusion of Grisham money into the program, and has the state tuition thing going for it to attract players.

Curious from those in the know how/why Vandy is so good, and what the prospects could be for Duke. Vandy has the SEC going for it (which I gather is strong) but the ACC seems to be no slouch (Virginia, FSU, Miami, NC State).

[YmoBeThere]

For Vandy, two words: Tim Corbin.

Vandy's success was moderate until he showed up. It all started happening after I graduated from b-school there, so I can't claim any coincidental non-causal relationship.

[Reilly]

For Vandy, two words: Tim Corbin. ...

Wow -- so they were a doormat and one coach turned it around:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Corbin

Still, it seems it takes so much -- money, culture, coach, something .... thinking of Duke -- long-time interest and culture and geographic interest in hoops, and K's work ethic and commitment and talent as a psychologist ... think of Duke football: administrative commitment (finally), and Cut's wonderfulness, and the seed money from Mr. Brooks and Mr. Pascal ... and Cut ... and Cut ... and Cut ...

[jimsumner]

Wow -- so they were a doormat and one coach turned it around:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Corbin

Still, it seems it takes so much -- money, culture, coach, something .... thinking of Duke -- long-time interest and culture and geographic interest in hoops, and K's work ethic and commitment and talent as a psychologist ... think of Duke football: administrative commitment (finally), and Cut's wonderfulness, and the seed money from Mr. Brooks and Mr. Pascal ... and Cut ... and Cut ... and Cut ...

Upgrading Wade and associated facilities has taken priority for some time now. But Duke has started to spend more money, on recruiting, salaries, infrastructure. Duke's Chris Pollard and his staff have put together some pretty good recruiting classes. This year's freshman class was ranked in the top 20 nationally. And the in-coming class could be as good, maybe better. There's a shortstop named Zach Kone, from Boca Raton, who is an absolute stud. Duke also signed Jeff Conine's kid.

And Duke had five guys drafted earlier this week, two in the top-10 rounds, which is essential in continuing to recruit the kinds of players Duke is going to need to beat the big boys.

Duke splits its home games between the Bulls park downtown and on-campus Coombs Field. Coombs has a new surface but is still sub-standard in seating, concessions, rest rooms, press facilities, et.al.

It will be very interesting to see what Duke does after the WW upgrade is completed. Does Duke go all in and build a first-rate, on-campus facility? I sure hope so. I think that is the crucial next step for Duke baseball.

[Faustus]

UVa has a terrific college baseball stadium (had a huge private donation some years back to fund it) and a big following of fans as well, and that has to help. Remember Rice won the College World Series just a couple of years ago, so it can be done...

[jimsumner]

UVa has a terrific college baseball stadium (had a huge private donation some years back to fund it) and a big following of fans as well, and that has to help. Remember Rice won the College World Series just a couple of years ago, so it can be done...

Rice won in 2003. How time flies. :)

Rice had been pretty good for a long time and then made the jump to better-than-pretty-good. They also used a judicious number of jucos to help make that leap and Duke simply is not going to go that route.

Stanford has also been nationally competitive for a long time. And although not quite at the exalted academic level of Duke and Stanford, private-school Southern Cal has a baseball tradition matched by few universities. As does Miami. Of course, the final two schools play in prep-baseball-hotbeds, so that has to factor in.

[sagegrouse]

UVa has a terrific college baseball stadium (had a huge private donation some years back to fund it) and a big following of fans as well, and that has to help. Remember Rice won the College World Series just a couple of years ago, so it can be done...


Rice won in 2003. How time flies. :)

Rice had been pretty good for a long time and then made the jump to better-than-pretty-good. They also used a judicious number of jucos to help make that leap and Duke simply is not going to go that route.

Stanford has also been nationally competitive for a long time. And although not quite at the exalted academic level of Duke and Stanford, private-school Southern Cal has a baseball tradition matched by few universities. As does Miami. Of course, the final two schools play in prep-baseball-hotbeds, so that has to factor in.

Rice baseball has been good for a long, long time. The Houston and Gulf Coast area is a baseball hotbed with 8-10 million people.

The CWS etc occurred only after Rice hired Wayne Graham in about 1994. He has been a godsend, although at age 79, his coaching days may be nearing an end.

[buddy]

We need to give Pollard some time. He lost his top three pitchers this year to Tommy John surgery. Hard to win without pitching. Good recruits coming in (if they don't go pro first) and a coach who can prove he can win. I'll give them some time.

[Faustus]

2003? Wow, Jim, I would have bet money Rice won the CWS maybe 2-3 years ago. But then... where did I just park my car? Wasn't it...over....? ... Hmmmm...

[jimsumner]

We need to give Pollard some time. He lost his top three pitchers this year to Tommy John surgery. Hard to win without pitching. Good recruits coming in (if they don't go pro first) and a coach who can prove he can win. I'll give them some time.

Conine was the only recruit drafted and he went in the 31st round. Kone could have gone much higher but told major-league teams not to bother. Duke expects the entire class to show up.

Even with the arm injuries, Duke's pitching was decent. Duke just couldn't score enough runs. Duke was fifth in the ACC in pitching and fifth in fielding percentage; but tied for last in runs scored and finished dead last in home runs, with 13 in 53 games. Part of that can be attributed to the ballparks. But not all of it.

The two most-hyped freshmen position players--Justin Bellinger and Evan Dougherty--struggled all season. Improvement by them is crucial for next season.

Most of the team is playing in wooden-bat leagues this summer, including five in the Cape Cod League, the 800-pound gorilla of college summer leagues. Pitcher Bailey Clark is an alternate on the national team.

So the trend lines are good. Duke baseball may be where Duke football was about 2010 or 2011. But is Pollard a David Cutcliffe analog? I hope so, maybe even think so. But the jury is still out. Color me cautiously optimistic.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

My neighbor's step dad is Don Sutton... throwback to good Duke baseball and football.

[jimsumner]

My neighbor's step dad is Don Sutton... throwback to good Duke baseball and football.

Do you mean Don Altman?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Do you mean Don Altman?

Yes!

[wavedukefan70s]

College of Charleston has a nice complex it hosts baseball,softball,soccer and tennis I believe.it still needs some upgrades.the general model is a great idea though.
I watched Virginia play Marist at my sons team field.the cavs were well coached.

[DarkstarWahoo]

Wow -- so they were a doormat and one coach turned it around:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Corbin

Still, it seems it takes so much -- money, culture, coach, something .... thinking of Duke -- long-time interest and culture and geographic interest in hoops, and K's work ethic and commitment and talent as a psychologist ... think of Duke football: administrative commitment (finally), and Cut's wonderfulness, and the seed money from Mr. Brooks and Mr. Pascal ... and Cut ... and Cut ... and Cut ...

Sub in Brian O'Connor for Corbin and you could say the same for UVA. Add in some nice money from an anonymous donor who clearly had Time to Kill and wanted to play Rainmaker so he could sit in the Bleachers, and you've got a nice foundation for a good program.

It's remarkable, because 15 years ago they were essentially ready to kill the program.

[jimsumner]

Sub in Brian O'Connor for Corbin and you could say the same for UVA. Add in some nice money from an anonymous donor who clearly had Time to Kill and wanted to play Rainmaker so he could sit in the Bleachers, and you've got a nice foundation for a good program.

It's remarkable, because 15 years ago they were essentially ready to kill the program.

Virginia is a very good example of what happens when a school decides to commit money to a program and backs that up by hiring the right people.

There is a big difference between public schools and private schools. The former can use in-state players to lessen the restrictions of the 11.7 scholarship limit.

Let's look at Duke. Say Duke targets an in-state recruit and offers him a half-scholarship. That same player can walk-on to UNC, NC State or East Carolina and his family is still paying less than they would had he accepted a half-scholarship to Duke.

That applies to any player Duke is recruiting who has an attractive, public, in-state option.

So, Duke has to target players whose families can absorb a good bit of the Duke price-tag or someone from the lower end of the economic scale, who would be eligible for substantial non-athletic financial aid.

That lessens the recruiting pool. Which is a problem.

[duke blue brewcrew]

Upgrading Wade and associated facilities has taken priority for some time now. But Duke has started to spend more money, on recruiting, salaries, infrastructure. Duke's Chris Pollard and his staff have put together some pretty good recruiting classes. This year's freshman class was ranked in the top 20 nationally. And the in-coming class could be as good, maybe better. There's a shortstop named Zach Kone, from Boca Raton, who is an absolute stud. Duke also signed Jeff Conine's kid.

And Duke had five guys drafted earlier this week, two in the top-10 rounds, which is essential in continuing to recruit the kinds of players Duke is going to need to beat the big boys.

Duke splits its home games between the Bulls park downtown and on-campus Coombs Field. Coombs has a new surface but is still sub-standard in seating, concessions, rest rooms, press facilities, et.al.

It will be very interesting to see what Duke does after the WW upgrade is completed. Does Duke go all in and build a first-rate, on-campus facility? I sure hope so. I think that is the crucial next step for Duke baseball.

I believe Duke Baseball is also seeing an infusion of talent from Duke Football if I'm not mistaken. There are some athletes who are currently playing or committing to play both sports, correct?

[jimsumner]

I believe Duke Baseball is also seeing an infusion of talent from Duke Football if I'm not mistaken. There are some athletes who are currently playing or committing to play both sports, correct?

Not in the last few years. But Quentin Harris might play both sports.

[awhom111]

I just hope that we do not have to wear uniforms in the vein of the two sets of duds that the two teams wore tonight to improve our baseball program.

[duke79]

I just hope that we do not have to wear uniforms in the vein of the two sets of duds that the two teams wore tonight to improve our baseball program.

LOL, yes, I truly could not watch the game, the uniforms were SO ugly. Who at each of the schools was responsible for choosing those uniforms?

[DarkstarWahoo]

LOL, yes, I truly could not watch the game, the uniforms were SO ugly. Who at each of the schools was responsible for choosing those uniforms?

UVA only wears camo when Connor Jones pitches. No idea how they arrived at that, but it's the case. They'll wear something more appealing tonight and (hopefully) tomorrow.

[Reilly]

UVA only wears camo when Connor Jones pitches. No idea how they arrived at that, but it's the case. They'll wear something more appealing tonight and (hopefully) tomorrow.

Seems to be a combination of the starting pitcher getting to choose, and superstition:

http://www.roanoke.com/sports/colleges/uva/uva-baseball-continues-with-camo-plan-when-jones-is-on/article_af8dea42-d76d-57c3-84c5-bc29e63551f7.html

[jimsumner]

I just hope that we do not have to wear uniforms in the vein of the two sets of duds that the two teams wore tonight to improve our baseball program.

My wife watched last night's game for about five seconds before asking if there was a competition for worst uniform.

Vandy looked like they were heading for an audition for a 1920s gangster movie.

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

For Vandy, two words: Tim Corbin.

Vandy's success was moderate until he showed up. It all started happening after I graduated from b-school there, so I can't claim any coincidental non-causal relationship.

Tim Corbin is simply amazing, agreed, but none of this happens without David Williams and the shift in policy towards athletics that the VU administration (Gordon Gee and others) enacted in the early 2000s. That Corbin is still at Vanderbilt is pretty amazing. There's a great story of how Gee and Williams met him on the tarmac after he interviewed for the Auburn job way back when and convinced him to stay in Nashville.

Go Dores.

[duke79]

Better uniforms tonight (IMHO); more traditional.

[sagegrouse]

I watched carefully the last couple of innings of Virginia's win over Vanderbilt. Each Virginia pitch took about two minutes: the catcher would look to the dugout; the coach would seem to do nothing for at least a minute, as though he were waiting for a slow computer to crank out an answer; then he would wave his fingers in a sign; the catcher would look at the sign sheet taped to his wrist; then he would relay the signal to the pitcher; and the pitcher would put his foot on the rubber and go into the delivery. The announcers mentioned that it was designed to disrupt the batter's concentration. Holy Cow! Who wants to watch that kind of stuff?

[Reilly]

Last night's game was a 9-inning, 3-0 game, where the home team did not have to bat in the 9th. It took 3:42.

In addition to the pitchers, the hitters share some of the blame. I think it's Vandy's 1B who steps out of the box after every pitch, gathers his thoughts, takes a deep breath, composes himself just a bit more, steps into the box, puts his right hand up as a "stop" signal to the ump to indicate he's not ready yet, wiggles his feet just a bit, looks at his bat as though it were a light sabre, takes his stance, puts his hand down, one more deep breath, aaaaaand we're ready for the next pitch.

Swear to God I'd drill him in the ribs with the first pitch every time just to put a stop to that nonsense.

College baseball seems to be really surging in popularity recently, hate to see them lose that. MLB has made great strides with speeding the pace of play. It can and should be done.

[YmoBeThere]

Tim Corbin is simply amazing, agreed, but none of this happens without David Williams and the shift in policy towards athletics that the VU administration (Gordon Gee and others) enacted in the early 2000s. That Corbin is still at Vanderbilt is pretty amazing. There's a great story of how Gee and Williams met him on the tarmac after he interviewed for the Auburn job way back when and convinced him to stay in Nashville.

Go Dores.

I was there when they made the shift(folding it into Student Life type function). Being among the grad student ranks it didn't really impact us. I'm curious if that change was the important one or whether it was just good hiring. Gee kind of imploded on himself(well, his wife was the point of contention). Franklin has come and gone, we'll see what happens to football over the next few years. Meanwhile, women's tennis has brought home a title, but for me the more interesting program has been men's b-ball which peaked with the SEC title over UK and then fallen off a cliff. All while maintaining the same coach for many years.

[NYCtoATL]

Duke splits its home games between the Bulls park downtown and on-campus Coombs Field. Coombs has a new surface but is still sub-standard in seating, concessions, rest rooms, press facilities, et.al.

Do these things exist at Coombs now? It's been a while but all I remember was sitting on the hill behind home plate and it being bring your own keg.

[mdj]

Do these things exist at Coombs now? It's been a while but all I remember was sitting on the hill behind home plate and it being bring your own keg.

For the life of me I can't remember where the concession stand was when I was in school (late 90's) but there must have been one because I know I ate more than a few hot dogs at the games. To say that facility was high school quality I think would be an insult to most high school stadiums. Fun place to watch a game though.

[DU82]

For the life of me I can't remember where the concession stand was when I was in school (late 90's) but there must have been one because I know I ate more than a few hot dogs at the games. To say that facility was high school quality I think would be an insult to most high school stadiums. Fun place to watch a game though.

Stadium Journey, a website that provides critiques of just about every athletic venue in the country (and branching out to other countries) has Jack Coombs 191 out of 283 NCAA baseball stadiums/parks/fields. It at least has a concession stand, unlike many others below it on the list. http://www.stadiumjourney.com/news/06-10-2015/1108/2015_ncaa_ballpark_experience_rankings

I've been to a few CBB ballparks the past few years, and the worst was Fairleigh Dickinson, which came in 268 (I'd hate to go to the other 15, although looking at the list, I have been to two. I'd put both above FDU.) The ballpark in my old home town of Teaneck is tucked in a corner next to the highway, so that the backstop has to cover the plate, so foul balls don't go onto Route 4. No bleachers on the third base side (it's the embankment for the highway) and the only bleacher on the first base side is set far enough back that you can't see half the field because of the first base dugout. However, like Jack Coombs, the field is now turf, which makes those early spring games playable.

Of the two ranked lower that I've seen, Villanova's problem is it's in a county park 15 minutes from campus, with no amenities around other than bathrooms, and Wagner plays in the Staten Island Yankees park, which doesn't get started until June (half-season minor league team) so nothing's open, even bathrooms sometimes. But the view of lower Manhattan's great.

Back to Jack Coombs, it's not horrible (bottom third's about right) but it's the worst in the conference, with some top venues. Just as with what is happening now at WW, to stay competitive, something needs to happen. Playing off campus at the DBAP is a short term answer, not long-term. Perhaps when they decide where the softball field is going, they can also upgrade the baseball one.

[jimsumner]

I asked Kevin White once when Duke was going to build a new Coombs on campus.

He asked me when I was going to write the check.

He was joking.

I think. :)

White is a baseball guy. But so was Butters and not much got done on his watch.

And, yes, adding softball creates another demand on resources.

I have the same question about baseball I had for so many years about football. How long will a university that proclaims a commitment to excellence in all things settle for mediocrity in this area?

So, we shall see.

As an aside, how about those 'Hoos? I've been waiting a long time for the ACC to have the last team standing in Omaha. Kudos.

[YmoBeThere]

I have the same question about baseball I had for so many years about football.

Is it as simple as one generates enough revenue with success so as to be self-sustaining and the other doesn't?

[formerdukeathlete]

Virginia is a very good example of what happens when a school decides to commit money to a program and backs that up by hiring the right people.

There is a big difference between public schools and private schools. The former can use in-state players to lessen the restrictions of the 11.7 scholarship limit.

Let's look at Duke. Say Duke targets an in-state recruit and offers him a half-scholarship. That same player can walk-on to UNC, NC State or East Carolina and his family is still paying less than they would had he accepted a half-scholarship to Duke.

That applies to any player Duke is recruiting who has an attractive, public, in-state option.

So, Duke has to target players whose families can absorb a good bit of the Duke price-tag or someone from the lower end of the economic scale, who would be eligible for substantial non-athletic financial aid.

That lessens the recruiting pool. Which is a problem.

http://www.star-telegram.com/sports/article3831986.html

A 2012 article which discusses some of the challenges in recruiting baseball playes to private universities.

I think you would find that a large percentage of Vandy's baseball team receives substantial scholarship / financial aid assistance. The expansion of financial aid to middle income families, the exclusion of the value of the primary residence in the ability to pay equation, etc., means more potential Duke Baseball recruits will qualify for financial assistance in excess of a partial scholarship offer.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Earnest congrats to UVA. Thanks for bringing a title to the ACC.

[El_Diablo]

UVA's championship shirts say "GR8TNESS"...does anyone know what the reference to 8 means?

[jseelke]

While it is impressive that Duke BB has had more players drafted into the big leagues, I believe that one of the big reasons they have not been competitive on the national level (i.e. not even invited to the NCAA tournament) is their strength of schedule. I wrote for the Chronicle from 1992-1996, including the 1994-1995 season when Duke finished second in the ACC with a 16-8 record yet was not invited to the NCAA Tournament. The problem - scheduling:

http://www.dukechronicle.com/articles/1995/03/29/baseball-needs-schedule-better-foes#.VYwNmEa2Z-0

Teams like NC Central and Liberty are close in proximity, but may not be the best in terms of baseball quality.

Look at what basketball does - for non-league games K constantly invites teams that either are NCAA tournament teams or potential NCAA teams. I know that baseball is tricky with the home-and-home deals that can be asked for, but still I think better scheduling may help

john seelke

[devildeac]

UVA's championship shirts say "GR8TNESS"...does anyone know what the reference to 8 means?

It's a tribute to our MBB team NC in April when we proved Eight is Enough.

(kidding, kidding:o)

[jimsumner]

Is it as simple as one generates enough revenue with success so as to be self-sustaining and the other doesn't?

Sure. And a bad football program can lose more money than a bad baseball program.

By the same token, it takes less money to elevate baseball than it does to elevate football.

Improving the entire football program has absorbed an awful lot of time, energy and money for the last decade or so. Duke can do the same thing in baseball--IMO-if they allocate sufficient time, energy and money to the program. And get a baseball Cutcliffe. The jury is still out on Pollard.

A word on the schedule. Duke is trying to upgrade. Duke not only had a weak non-conference schedule in 2014, they also lost way too many midweek games to second-tier competition, thus rendering a good ACC record irrelevant for NCAA purposes.

Duke did much better in non-ACC games in 2015 but dropped too many ACC games.

Combine 2014 ACC and 2015 non-ACC and Duke is going to the NCAAs.

There are good non-ACC programs in the area, East Carolina and Campbell to name a couple. Again, IMO, Duke should try to schedule both of these programs on a regular basis. But like Duke football, Duke baseball needs to schedule some sure wins. But they had better win them.

[Duvall]

Back to Jack Coombs, it's not horrible (bottom third's about right) but it's the worst in the conference, with some top venues. Just as with what is happening now at WW, to stay competitive, something needs to happen. Playing off campus at the DBAP is a short term answer, not long-term.

So what is it that Coombs needs, other than everything? Does Duke need to basically tear everything down and build a new ballpark on the same site?

[Bluedog]

http://www.star-telegram.com/sports/article3831986.html

A 2012 article which discusses some of the challenges in recruiting baseball playes to private universities.

I think you would find that a large percentage of Vandy's baseball team receives substantial scholarship / financial aid assistance. The expansion of financial aid to middle income families, the exclusion of the value of the primary residence in the ability to pay equation, etc., means more potential Duke Baseball recruits will qualify for financial assistance in excess of a partial scholarship offer.

Haven't seen you, formerdukeathlete, on the boards in quite some; welcome back!

I didn't think the above was allowed though? (Despite it saying that is the case in the article.) It would be a huge loophole that highly endowed schools could easily exploit. The other loophole would be to simply give "academic scholarships" to athletes to get around the limits. I thought that if a recruited varsity athlete receives financial aid from any source, it counts against the scholarship limit regardless. So, if a player who would be eligible for a full-ride based on financial need receives a 50% athletic scholarship and a 50% financial aid scholarship that counts as a WHOLE scholarship against the 11.7 limit for baseball, not just the 0.5 they received based on athletic merit. No? Obviously, universities like Duke would simply NOT give the athletic scholarships at all and say the individual qualifies for 100% financial aid if they could. I was under the impression that this rule applies to recruited athletes, so walk-ons who became scholarship players were exempt.

I do recall Drummond committing to UConn when they didn't have any scholarships available and was simply going to pay in-state tuition. But then Michael Bradley gave up his scholarship so Drummond could get one -- in the article I found, it said Bradley was going to then apply for financial aid, which contradicts my above statement, but perhaps he wasn't a recruited athlete. I personally don't understand why football gets 85 FULL scholarships and baseball gets 11.7. How did they come up with the numbers?

[DarkstarWahoo]

Haven't seen you, formerdukeathlete, on the boards in quite some; welcome back!

I didn't think the above was allowed though? (Despite it suggesting that in the article.) It would be a huge loophole that highly endowed schools could easily exploit. I thought that if a recruited varsity athlete receives financial aid, it counts against the scholarship limit regardless. So, if a player who would be eligible for a full-ride based on financial need receives a 50% athletic scholarship and a 50% financial aid scholarship that counts as a WHOLE scholarship against the 11.7 limit for baseball, not just the 0.5 they received based on athletic merit. No? Obviously, universities like Duke would simply NOT give the athletic scholarships at all and say the individual qualifies for 100% financial aid if they could. I was under the impression that this rule only applied to recruited athletes, though, and walk-ons who became scholarship players were exempt.

I do recall Drummond committing to UConn when they didn't have any scholarships available and was simply going to pay in-state tuition. But then Michael Bradley gave up his scholarship so Drummond could get one -- in the article I found, it said Bradley was going to then apply for financial aid, which contradicts my above statement, but perhaps he wasn't a recruited athlete.

I was under the same impression. I recall some Chapel Hill basketball player who got a Morehead scholarship 10-20 years ago, and reading about how they had to be very judicious in how they recruited him so as not to have it count against the scholarship limit. Can't recall who it was.

[sagegrouse]

Haven't seen you, formerdukeathlete, on the boards in quite some; welcome back!

I didn't think the above was allowed though? (Despite it saying that is the case in the article.) It would be a huge loophole that highly endowed schools could easily exploit. The other loophole would be to simply give "academic scholarships" to athletes to get around the limits. I thought that if a recruited varsity athlete receives financial aid from any source, it counts against the scholarship limit regardless. So, if a player who would be eligible for a full-ride based on financial need receives a 50% athletic scholarship and a 50% financial aid scholarship that counts as a WHOLE scholarship against the 11.7 limit for baseball, not just the 0.5 they received based on athletic merit. No? Obviously, universities like Duke would simply NOT give the athletic scholarships at all and say the individual qualifies for 100% financial aid if they could. I was under the impression that this rule applies to recruited athletes, so walk-ons who became scholarship players were exempt.

I do recall Drummond committing to UConn when they didn't have any scholarships available and was simply going to pay in-state tuition. But then Michael Bradley gave up his scholarship so Drummond could get one -- in the article I found, it said Bradley was going to then apply for financial aid, which contradicts my above statement, but perhaps he wasn't a recruited athlete.

I believe the whole situation works as follows. Duke, like many schools, has a generous formula for determining financial aid based on family resources. It may be that prospective athletes would get nearly a full ride via the academic scholarship formula, thereby bypassing the athletic scholarship route. and, by the way, regular students are allowed to play scholarship sports.

[Bluedog]

I believe the whole situation works as follows. Duke, like many schools, has a generous formula for determining financial aid based on family resources. It may be that prospective athletes would get nearly a full ride via the academic scholarship formula, thereby bypassing the athletic scholarship route. and, by the way, regular students are allowed to play scholarship sports.

I still think that ANY scholarship is applied to the sport-imposed limit even if it's based on financial need. Duke (and Stanford, among others) would never have a scholarship crunch in basketball if that wasn't the case as they could simply decide to "move" somebody from an athletic scholarship to financial aid (assuming they qualify, which a large percentage would). I certainly realize regular students -- who may be on need-based financial aid already -- are allowed to play scholarship sports; that's why I put in the "recruited" athlete distinction, which the NCAA has a clear definition on. It's only for recruited athletes where schools cannot play the "which box should this scholarship come from" game because it counts against the sport limit regardless (according to my understanding; it's certainly possible I am wrong and would be happy to see an official NCAA policy from somewhere).

This site says this:
"Once a student-athlete is a “counter” all other financial aid received from their institution is required to “count” as if it is an athletic scholarship"
http://informedathlete.com/athletic-scholarships-financial-aid-issues

I realize there are "counter sports" and "non-counter sports."

Edit: Looks like it's NCAA bylaw 15.02.4.4.

Here's a nice chart:
http://home.earthlink.net/~bamajimbob/data/Counter.pdf

Student-Athlete receives Institutional Financial Aid (15.02.4.1) or Other Permissible Financial Aid (15.02.4.2) without regard in any degree to athletics ability (15.5.1.2)

Counter:
Recruited athlete: Yes, not counted until participation in initial varsity competition
Non-recruited athlete: No, Faculty athletics representative and the director of financial aid have certified that the student athlete’s financial aid was granted without regard in any degree to athletics ability

[sagegrouse]

I still think that ANY scholarship is applied to the sport-imposed limit even if it's based on financial need. Duke (and Stanford, among others) would never have a scholarship crunch in basketball if that wasn't the case as they could simply decide to "move" somebody from an athletic scholarship to financial aid (assuming they qualify, which a large percentage would). I certainly realize regular students -- who may be on need-based financial aid already -- are allowed to play scholarship sports; that's why I put in the "recruited" athlete distinction, which the NCAA has a clear definition on. It's only for recruited athletes where schools cannot play the "which box should this scholarship come from" game because it counts against the sport limit regardless (according to my understanding; it's certainly possible I am wrong and would be happy to see an official NCAA policy from somewhere).

This site says this:
"Once a student-athlete is a “counter” all other financial aid received from their institution is required to “count” as if it is an athletic scholarship"
http://informedathlete.com/athletic-scholarships-financial-aid-issues

I realize there are "counter sports" and "non-counter sports."

Edit: Looks like it's NCAA bylaw 15.02.4.4.

Here's a nice chart:
http://home.earthlink.net/~bamajimbob/data/Counter.pdf

Student-Athlete receives Institutional Financial Aid (15.02.4.1) or Other Permissible Financial Aid (15.02.4.2) without regard in any degree to athletics ability (15.5.1.2)

Counter:
Recruited athlete: Yes, not counted until participation in initial varsity competition
Non-recruited athlete: No, Faculty athletics representative and the director of financial aid have certified that the student athlete’s financial aid was granted without regard in any degree to athletics ability

And your conclusion is that it's OK? I mean, can't an AB Duke or Benjamin Duke Scholar play sports without regards to scholarship limits? I would think, "Yes!"

[formerdukeathlete]

And your conclusion is that it's OK? I mean, can't an AB Duke or Benjamin Duke Scholar play sports without regards to scholarship limits? I would think, "Yes!"

I haven't taken the time to recheck the NCAA by-law provisions, but, I think or thought it worked like this. For head count sports like football, women's volleyball, women's tennis, it was important to avoid recruiting within the NCAA definitiono of the word players who would participate on the team without being on scholarship. Recruiting means paying for an official visit, too many phone calls, an in-home visit, etc. An AB Duke scholar, or a person receiving substantial financial aid or other scholarship assistance would not be a counter as long as such aid were offered / awarded on the same basis as that for the rest of the student body. And, from the chart, someone who was awarded an AB Duke who was also recruited could play after their freshman year and not be a counter if they maitained a high enough GPA.

For the equivalency sports such as baseball, I think it works this way - A pitcher recruited out of high school is encouraged to apply for financial aid. The aid determination is that this student athlete qualifies for 3/4ths financial aid. The pitcher is offered a 1/4 th athletic scholarship. The AD funds a quarter of the aid and the remaining 1/2 comes out of the general university financial aid budget. I don't think this 1/2 counts toward the 11.7 total, whether or not the pitcher was recruited, had an in-home visit, or we provided him with training table while visiting Duke. That is, the 1/2 does not count toward the 11.7 provided the pitcher received aid on the same formulary as the rest of the student body.

[Bluedog]

I haven't taken the time to recheck the NCAA by-law provisions, but, I think or thought it worked like this. For head count sports like football, women's volleyball, women's tennis, it was important to avoid recruiting within the NCAA definitiono of the word players who would participate on the team without being on scholarship. Recruiting means paying for an official visit, too many phone calls, an in-home visit, etc. An AB Duke scholar, or a person receiving substantial financial aid or other scholarship assistance would not be a counter as long as such aid were offered / awarded on the same basis as that for the rest of the student body. And, from the chart, someone who was awarded an AB Duke who was also recruited could play after their freshman year and not be a counter if they maitained a high enough GPA.

For the equivalency sports such as baseball, I think it works this way - A pitcher recruited out of high school is encouraged to apply for financial aid. The aid determination is that this student athlete qualifies for 3/4ths financial aid. The pitcher is offered a 1/4 th athletic scholarship. The AD funds a quarter of the aid and the remaining 1/2 comes out of the general university financial aid budget. I don't think this 1/2 counts toward the 11.7 total, whether or not the pitcher was recruited, had an in-home visit, or we provided him with training table while visiting Duke. That is, the 1/2 does not count toward the 11.7 provided the pitcher received aid on the same formulary as the rest of the student body.

Thank you -- that makes sense as there's clearly a difference between basketball (a "head count" sport) and baseball (an "equivalency" sport). So, I guess a school's generous financial aid CAN help a sport "recruit" athletes in baseball as there IS the possibility of additional aid, but not for basketball / football. Head count sports are: Football, Basketball (men’s and women’s), tennis (women only), gymnastics (women only) and volleyball (women only). I had heard the rules for head count sports, but didn't realize some sports worked differently with regards to how they judge financial aid.

[DU82]

So what is it that Coombs needs, other than everything? Does Duke need to basically tear everything down and build a new ballpark on the same site?

Yep. I'd tear down everything other than the field and the relatively new field house, and rebuild the stands. Although to wrap it down the third base side you'd have to move the field house. You could squeeze a decent number of rows between the field and the K center down first base. An extreme option would be convert Coombs for softball (move the field in, keeping the outfield wall in place to fit the needed stands) and build a new baseball diamond somewhere else on campus. I wouldn't expect that because the field itself cost seven figures.