Danny out in Atl

[moonpie23]

Linky (http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/13106051/atlanta-hawks-promote-mike-budenholzer-team-president-leading-departure-gm-danny-ferry)

[cspan37421]

Shows the danger of using others' words without attribution. It's wrong to start with ... but even if you ignore that, you ought to be choosy about the words you're appropriating.

He's clearly a skilled GM, so he'll probably land on his feet somewhere, but this was self-inflicted injury (admittedly with some staph rubbed in it by one of the Hawks' owners).

wishing him better days and wiser word choices ahead

fellow class of 89-er

[duke blue brewcrew]

Shows the danger of using others' words without attribution. It's wrong to start with ... but even if you ignore that, you ought to be choosy about the words you're appropriating.

He's clearly a skilled GM, so he'll probably land on his feet somewhere, but this was self-inflicted injury (admittedly with some staph rubbed in it by one of the Hawks' owners).

wishing him better days and wiser word choices ahead

fellow class of 89-er

I agree. A careless choice of words regardless of attribution was the death nail of this relationship IMO. He's clearly a very skilled GM. The team and staff he assembled in Atlanta is truly impressive. He turned around that franchise in very short order. I hope he has learned his lesson and get's another chance somewhere.

[Edouble]

I agree. A careless choice of words regardless of attribution was the death nail of this relationship IMO. He's clearly a very skilled GM. The team and staff he assembled in Atlanta is truly impressive. He turned around that franchise in very short order. I hope he has learned his lesson and get's another chance somewhere.

Oh, the irony! In a thread dealing with fallout from semantic nuances... I believe you meant "death knell".

I'll disagree. There was no careless choice of words. It was a choice to read another's words. He made no choice over the words. His only (split second) decision was to continue to read what was in front of him. When the bottom line for an NBA franchise is to win, I would think that a GM, or anyone in a position of authority, would be tasked with the full disclosure of any information that was made available to them. In the day-to-day operations of what must be a whirlwind job, I don't think it's up to the GM to provide an instantaneous sensitivity filter for every little non-PC item that comes up in a scouting report.

There was information in what Ferry read. It was written in a blunt, culturally insensitive way, but it conveyed some character description of Deng. I would not expect Ferry to be able to translate the non-PC descriptors into PC-friendly language while his eyes are moving over the paper. I would also not expect him to censor any information made available to him that could have an impact on a multi-million dollar decision. Ferry read the report and did his job. Someone else, who wrote the scouting report, didn't do theirs.

[Duvall]

I'll disagree. There was no careless choice of words. It was a choice to read another's words. He made no choice over the words. His only (split second) decision was to continue to read what was in front of him. When the bottom line for an NBA franchise is to win, I would think that a GM, or anyone in a position of authority, would be tasked with the full disclosure of any information that was made available to them. In the day-to-day operations of what must be a whirlwind job, I don't think it's up to the GM to provide an instantaneous sensitivity filter for every little non-PC item that comes up in a scouting report.

There was information in what Ferry read. It was written in a blunt, culturally insensitive way, but it conveyed some character description of Deng. I would not expect Ferry to be able to translate the non-PC descriptors into PC-friendly language while his eyes are moving over the paper. I would also not expect him to censor any information made available to him that could have an impact on a multi-million dollar decision. Ferry read the report and did his job. Someone else, who wrote the scouting report, didn't do theirs.

That's nonsense. First of all, Ferry was the GM - if the person that prepared the report failed to do their job, that's still on Ferry. And frankly, Ferry shouldn't have been in the practice of presenting reports to ownership that he hadn't read.

[CDu]

Oh, the irony! In a thread dealing with fallout from semantic nuances... I believe you meant "death knell".

I'll disagree. There was no careless choice of words. It was a choice to read another's words. He made no choice over the words. His only (split second) decision was to continue to read what was in front of him. When the bottom line for an NBA franchise is to win, I would think that a GM, or anyone in a position of authority, would be tasked with the full disclosure of any information that was made available to them. In the day-to-day operations of what must be a whirlwind job, I don't think it's up to the GM to provide an instantaneous sensitivity filter for every little non-PC item that comes up in a scouting report.

There was information in what Ferry read. It was written in a blunt, culturally insensitive way, but it conveyed some character description of Deng. I would not expect Ferry to be able to translate the non-PC descriptors into PC-friendly language while his eyes are moving over the paper. I would also not expect him to censor any information made available to him that could have an impact on a multi-million dollar decision. Ferry read the report and did his job. Someone else, who wrote the scouting report, didn't do theirs.

I have trouble believing that Ferry was reading those words for the first time. When making a presentation to your bosses, you would think it wise to review the material first, no? If that was the first time he read that scout's quote, I would be concerned about Ferry's preparation for the job.

[Edouble]

I have trouble believing that Ferry was reading those words for the first time. When making a presentation to your bosses, you would think it wise to review the material first, no? If that was the first time he read that scout's quote, I would be concerned about Ferry's preparation for the job.

Really? Gosh, I just see things so differently. If I knew there was something that I had to read to someone over the phone, I wouldn't need to practice reading it.

This seems different than a presentation. I think of a presentation as an active gathering of information and materials from many different sources, then summarized in a neat and concise manner. This was just reading something to somebody... like if you received an email with an industry specific article from the NY Times, and you called your boss to read it to him.

Now, if he had put together a whole presentation on why or why not the Hawks should offer Loul a max contract, or something like that, and he included the remarks, that would be completely different. This conference call seemed like they were all just taking a first look (taking a listen) to some preliminary information on Deng. That is how it was reported here in Atlanta.

If by chance, he had read the report ahead of time, I would have expected him to say something like "Before I read this next part, I want to say that I really wish this had been written differently and I hope that noone from our organization would use these kinds of words, so with that said, I will continue..."

[sagegrouse]

Oh, the irony! In a thread dealing with fallout from semantic nuances... I believe you meant "death knell".

I'll disagree. There was no careless choice of words. It was a choice to read another's words. He made no choice over the words. His only (split second) decision was to continue to read what was in front of him. When the bottom line for an NBA franchise is to win, I would think that a GM, or anyone in a position of authority, would be tasked with the full disclosure of any information that was made available to them. In the day-to-day operations of what must be a whirlwind job, I don't think it's up to the GM to provide an instantaneous sensitivity filter for every little non-PC item that comes up in a scouting report.

There was information in what Ferry read. It was written in a blunt, culturally insensitive way, but it conveyed some character description of Deng. I would not expect Ferry to be able to translate the non-PC descriptors into PC-friendly language while his eyes are moving over the paper. I would also not expect him to censor any information made available to him that could have an impact on a multi-million dollar decision. Ferry read the report and did his job. Someone else, who wrote the scouting report, didn't do theirs.

With no evidence whatsoever, I expect someone like Mike Brown, who was Luol's coach in Cleveland, was the source. It would be eyebrow-raising but not scandalous for Coach Brown to make the comment. For Danny to read it aloud without direct attribution or a major paraphrase is really worrisome.

[53n206]

No question–Danny was wrong. Now time to pay the piper.

[Reilly]

Do y'all believe that Danny Ferry believes -- in his heart -- that black people are somehow inferior? I don't. Nor does Billy King.

[MCFinARL]

Do y'all believe that Danny Ferry believes -- in his heart -- that black people are somehow inferior? I don't. Nor does Billy King.

Sure, but it doesn't really matter what he believes in his heart. Caesar's wife must be above suspicion, and so must executives whose jobs expose them to media coverage. One could make an argument that this may not be fair, but life, as Jimmy Carter once famously noted, isn't fair.

[sagegrouse]

Do y'all believe that Danny Ferry believes -- in his heart -- that black people are somehow inferior? I don't. Nor does Billy King.


Sure, but it doesn't really matter what he believes in his heart. Caesar's wife must be above suspicion, and so must executives whose jobs expose them to media coverage. One could make an argument that this may not be fair, but life, as Jimmy Carter once famously noted, isn't fair.

Words matter.

[CDu]

Sure, but it doesn't really matter what he believes in his heart. Caesar's wife must be above suspicion, and so must executives whose jobs expose them to media coverage. One could make an argument that this may not be fair, but life, as Jimmy Carter once famously noted, isn't fair.

Right. Ferry had the extreme privilege of doing a job that only 30 folks have in the world. With that privilege comes a lot money... and a lot of responsibility.

At the least offensive, he read those words for the first time aloud and didn't immediately condemn their nature (I find this scenario unlikely). But if that were the case and he was guilty of not filtering quickly, then he should have realized, upon saying it, that it was completely inappropriate.

But he did no such thing. He kept on going right along (it wasn't a single-sentence remark, it was explained in detail). And even after pausing and explaining, he didn't stop and say, "wait a minute, this is offensive."

That is what leads me to believe that (a) he wasn't reading it for the first time and (b) he didn't realize that it was offensive.

Now, do I think Ferry is racist or culturally insensitive? I have no idea, but I suspect he is not as you don't get that far in that field if you are heavily prejudiced. But he is in a business that is in the public eye, and that has a not-insignificant African population, and he at the very least read an offensive comment for the first time without recoil, or in the worst (and I think far more likely) case repeated it without understanding it as offensive. Unless you are working for James Dolan, that kind of foolish mistake in the public eye will get you fired from a job that has far more qualified applicants than positions.

It stinks for him, but them's the breaks. At least he got a pretty nice severance package for his troubles.

[freshmanjs]

the actual text of the scouting report is available on the internet. Ferry was not reading. he was paraphrasing. and he also said "and I don't mean that in a bad way", which refers to himself and is not in the text of a report.

[duke blue brewcrew]

Oh, the irony! In a thread dealing with fallout from semantic nuances... I believe you meant "death knell".

I'll disagree. There was no careless choice of words. It was a choice to read another's words. He made no choice over the words. His only (split second) decision was to continue to read what was in front of him. When the bottom line for an NBA franchise is to win, I would think that a GM, or anyone in a position of authority, would be tasked with the full disclosure of any information that was made available to them. In the day-to-day operations of what must be a whirlwind job, I don't think it's up to the GM to provide an instantaneous sensitivity filter for every little non-PC item that comes up in a scouting report.

There was information in what Ferry read. It was written in a blunt, culturally insensitive way, but it conveyed some character description of Deng. I would not expect Ferry to be able to translate the non-PC descriptors into PC-friendly language while his eyes are moving over the paper. I would also not expect him to censor any information made available to him that could have an impact on a multi-million dollar decision. Ferry read the report and did his job. Someone else, who wrote the scouting report, didn't do theirs.

First, thanks for the correction on death knell. While I fully understand your position on Ferry and the circumstances, it does trigger a very simple question in response which is, why did Ferry get suspended then? I am a big Ferry fan, his Duke career was the highlight of my high school years while talking smack to UNC fans. That said, I feel if he had qualified what he was about to say with the fact that these are not his words, nor does he know how to filter them into something more appropriate that he would have had far less trouble, if any in the end. You said it yourself, he made a choice and it was unfortunately the wrong one it would appear. A simple qualification of the fact that these are someone else's words would have saved him a lot of grief. As a GM, he made some excellent moves for the franchise. From a new coaching staff, to trading awful contracts and disgruntled "me-oriented" players to a group of team oriented, win together basketball mentality that got the team to the East Conference Finals. It was the teams best season since '93-'94, when they won the Central Division (according to the minimal research I did while writing this). The current style of play can be traced back to the Spurs, and Coach Budenholzer has done a great job of getting that team to buy into the system. What Ferry has done as a GM outside of that quoting/reading mishap, has largely been successful. It's clear the franchise was winning ball games. With 60 wins they had the best record in the East and the 2nd best in the NBA at the end of the season.

[cspan37421]

the actual text of the scouting report is available on the internet. Ferry was not reading. he was paraphrasing.

Paraphrasing (and/or) plagiarizing, he presented it as if it was his own considered view. He did not attribute it to Scout X or Insider Y. Had he done so, he might still be employed by the Hawks.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

If by chance, he had read the report ahead of time, I would have expected him to say something like "Before I read this next part, I want to say that I really wish this had been written differently and I hope that noone from our organization would use these kinds of words, so with that said, I will continue..."

Well, this would have made a huge difference, obviously. I assume that if you would have expected him to say this, it's then safe to say that you believe he hadn't read the report previously. That's in itself a lesser mistake, but still a mistake. I certainly wouldn't read anything off paper to my business associates without having vetted the information and language first. And, on the off chance that I slipped up and read anything that could be construed as offensive - I'd certainly immediately distance myself from it.


Now, do I think Ferry is racist or culturally insensitive? I have no idea, but I suspect he is not as you don't get that far in that field if you are heavily prejudiced. But he is in a business that is in the public eye, and that has a not-insignificant African population, and he at the very least read an offensive comment for the first time without recoil, or in the worst (and I think far more likely) case repeated it without understanding it as offensive. Unless you are working for James Dolan, that kind of foolish mistake in the public eye will get you fired from a job that has far more qualified applicants than positions

Agreed that in this instance, whether or not he's prejudiced doesn't matter. You can't use the "but I have black friends" excuse.


It stinks for him, but them's the breaks. At least he got a pretty nice severance package for his troubles.

Ferry got a severance, and the Hawks have the best team they've had in decades. Seems like a pretty amicable breakup at the end of the day. Ferry will and should get some looks on the basis of having turned the Hawks around, and should he decide he wants to make another go at it, I'm sure he will be given another chance.



Words matter.

Truly. Can't be overstated.

[BD80]

... Ferry got a severance, ...

He got paid more than he was due to be paid over the rest of his contract. Amity for a price?

[Skitzle]

Please don't forget the context, these tapes were released just a few months after the Don Sterling incident when the NBA took (in the most necessary way) a no-tolerance stance on racism of any kind.

Believe me had Don Sterling not received the death sentence, so to speak, Danny Ferry would never have been judged so sternly.

I don't believe he is a racist, I do believe he is responsible for the words he chose to speak. He will never again be a Gm but will have a thriving career in a head office behind the scenes moving forward.

He was the guinea pig for the NBA no tolerance stance. Bad for Ferry but important for the game overall.

From a basketball perspective I believe Very few people think poorly of ferry, but the new ownership did right by cutting ties.

He should land on his feet in short order

[JBDuke]

Ferry was also caught up in the power struggle of the Hawks ownership. If that hadn't been such a quagmire, Danny's comments would never have surfaced in the first place. Once they did, the Sterling fiasco and the racially charged culture in Atlanta made this outcome almost inevitable, no matter how many statements of support or how good the team's performance.

[53n206]

Nice article in ESPN today. Gives insight to the proceedings, and entirely exonerates Danny.

[CDu]

Nice article in ESPN today. Gives insight to the proceedings, and entirely exonerates Danny.

To be accurate, it doesn't entirely exonerate Ferry. It just says Ferry wasn't guilty of bias or racism. But he still made a substantial error in judgement with the comments about "having a little African in him" (as a description of not being completely honest behind the scenes). And that foolish comment got him effectively fired.

The reason Ferry is cleared of being guilty of bias or racism is because he still recommends the signing of Deng. I think the article is pretty fair though in that it depicts Ferry as a decent guy and a good GM who made a pretty bad mistake.

[SupaDave]

I'm a lot more disappointed in the culture than Ferry...

[Duvall]

I'm a lot more disappointed in the culture than Ferry...

What culture?

[SupaDave]

What culture?

A culture where racial stereotypes are being used to "identify" talent in BOARD and MEETING rooms across the country and no one bats an eye until there's an actual beef between two guys who don't play on the court...

[Duvall]

A culture where racial stereotypes are being used to "identify" talent in BOARD and MEETING rooms across the country and no one bats an eye until there's an actual beef between two guys who don't play on the court...

Absolutely. Baffling that no one in Atlanta realized what was happening until it was too late.

[Edouble]

Ferry was also caught up in the power struggle of the Hawks ownership. If that hadn't been such a quagmire, Danny's comments would never have surfaced in the first place. Once they did, the Sterling fiasco and the racially charged culture in Atlanta made this outcome almost inevitable, no matter how many statements of support or how good the team's performance.

I wouldn't say Atlanta has a culture that is more racially charged than anywhere else. In fact, due to the majority population being African American, and the fact that the socio-economic divide does not mirror racial lines, I'd say it's less racially charged than most places, certainly far less racially charged than Tampa, Durham, or Richmond, VA, the other southern cities that I have inhabited.

[JBDuke]

I wouldn't say Atlanta has a culture that is more racially charged than anywhere else. In fact, due to the majority population being African American, and the fact that the socio-economic divide does not mirror racial lines, I'd say it's less racially charged than most places, certainly far less racially charged than Tampa, Durham, or Richmond, VA, the other southern cities that I have inhabited.

Perhaps I was imprecise in what I meant to convey. I didn't mean to imply racial tension or conflict. I would agree with your characterization of Durham and Richmond as having a more racially tense culture than Atlanta. (I can't speak to Tampa from personal experience.) What I meant was that Atlanta has long been perhaps the most prominent home of African-American activism in the US. It's a bad place to make this sort of mistake, as there are lots of folks that are happy to use that mistake to further their cause, regardless of whether it was a relatively innocent mistake or not.

[Wander]

Oh, is she finally coming to Westeros?

[lotusland]

Sounds like Danny will land on his feet and be able to continue his front office career in the NBA. I'm glad he can put the ordeal behind him now.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Oh, is she finally coming to Westeros?

A++++ WOULD READ AGAIN!

(snarf)

[sagegrouse]

Dannys Ferry's successor in Atlanta, Wes Wilcox, is now in trouble for making remarks viewed as racially insensitive:


Wilcox, who is white, spoke at a "Chalk Talk" event before the Hawks' Dec. 7 game against the Miami Heat. According to a story on Deadspin, fans offered [negative] opinions [on many topics].

Amid the tension that came with the questioning, Wilcox made an attempt to to be self-deprecating in his reply.

"I know you guys may be angry with me, but I'm used to it because I have a black wife and three mixed kids, so I'm used to people being angry and argumentative," he reportedly said.

Some audience members complained to the Hawks CEO.