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Classof06
03-06-2007, 01:56 PM
There has always been anti-Duke sentiment, but Sunday was interesting in the sense that it's the first time a black Duke player has been the direct subject of Duke hatred. If you look back at the most hated Dukies, you see the common link: Laettner, Hurley, Wojo, Krzyzewski, Redick. People hated Battier, but nowhere near the level of the aforementioned. As much as people hate Duke, our black players have always been spared the brunt of the wrath; Krzyzewski even seems to steal some of the blame this time around with his post-game comments.

Lord Ash
03-06-2007, 03:47 PM
Absolutely true. Ask Carolina fans, and they didn't mind Brand or Ewing or Hill or a bunch of other guys... but Collins and Wojo and Christian and Ferry and JJ and (insert white player here?) OH watch the venom flow.

Honestly, I am a bit baffled as to why race is SUCH a taboo issue in basketball, to and past the point of ridiculousness. I am always amazed that no one has even mentioned that we have SO many white players contributing in a world where african american players have predominantly taken over... whether it is a discussion of academics and standards, recruiting practices, or whatever, I think it is very "stick your head in the sand" that it has never been mentioned.

Kdogg
03-06-2007, 04:00 PM
There has always been anti-Duke sentiment, but Sunday was interesting in the sense that it's the first time a black Duke player has been the direct subject of Duke hatred. If you look back at the most hated Dukies, you see the common link: Laettner, Hurley, Wojo, Krzyzewski, Redick. People hated Battier, but nowhere near the level of the aforementioned. As much as people hate Duke, our black players have always been spared the brunt of the wrath; Krzyzewski even seems to steal some of the blame this time around with his post-game comments.

Dahntay Jones "has been the direct subject of Duke hatred" in the past. Just because the media doesn't pick it up doesn't mean it does not exist. Jones just was not in the media as much as the mentioned players.

Overexposure in print, TV, radio, etc. is what really causes this "hate." Joakim Noah at Florida is a prime example. By all accounts, he's a good guy but talk to a SEC fan and, most likely, they claim to hate him.

johnb
03-06-2007, 04:13 PM
I'm not even sure that Henderson has been the object of all that much scorn. Most of the stuff I've read seems to be taking this opportunity to take aim at Duke basketball and Coach K. Everybody is agreeing that he is a good guy, even all the Carolina people.

By the way, this is potentially a career changing suspension for Gerald. He has gone from a solid role player to being touted as Duke's best player in the span of a few seconds. Impressive.

phaedrus
03-06-2007, 04:23 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=neumann/070306&sportCat=ncb

this link was posted on another thread. read the list and count how many are black. it's definitely one (among many) reasons people hate duke. strangely, i've noticed much more duke-hating among white people than black - but that's a generalization with not that much basis.

Skitzle
03-06-2007, 04:31 PM
It was once noted that we seem to only cheer heavily for our white players as well. Why is it that Lee, Pocius, and Zoubek got/get constant special cheers from fans while Ewing, Dock, Henderson, Duhon and Lance have/do not regardless of the fact that all were significantly better players?

and this is just in recent history

Barnacle
03-06-2007, 04:35 PM
I've noticed the same thing that it is predominantly white fans who express this classless, irrational hatred of white Duke players. I don't have scientific ways of showing this, and my sample of black friends is probably too low...

I think in the end it comes down to insecurity about their own inability. White fans don't compare themselves to black athletes; it's a sort of mental segregation/imposition of race roles (Black Athlete > Any White Fan; so there's no point in being jealous of them).

White fans instead compare themselves to white athletes. They get jealous and insecure of someone who is "like" them in one way but much much better at something they wish they were good at. It turns into this perverse hatred.

Anyway, it's pop psychology and I have no background to offer anything more than that. I also don't know what it means or implies even if I'm even right.

PopaShot
03-06-2007, 04:44 PM
It was once noted that we seem to only cheer heavily for our white players as well. Why is it that Lee, Pocius, and Zoubek got/get constant special cheers from fans while Ewing, Dock, Henderson, Duhon and Lance have/do not regardless of the fact that all were significantly better players?

and this is just in recent history

This is preposterous. "Du-du-du-du-hon" "From the Window...to Luol" "Pay your Rent, Pay your Rent!" "Who, who, who, who, who let Jamal Out?" all of these are cheers from recent memory that have been specialized for players who happened to be black. Not every player gets a nickname, but I recall some pretty loud cheering of the standard "Da-iel Ew-ing" variety during my time in Cameron.

vick
03-06-2007, 04:47 PM
Why is it that Lee, Pocius, and Zoubek got/get constant special cheers from fans while Ewing, Dock, Henderson, Duhon and Lance have/do not regardless of the fact that all were significantly better players?


"Du-Du-Du--Du-HON."
Dock had one as well.

And with Lee, remember that the "Leeeeeee" chant was not until his junior year, so that's not really an apples-to-apples comparison.

gep
03-06-2007, 04:48 PM
I think in the end it comes down to insecurity about their own inability. White fans don't compare themselves to black athletes; it's a sort of mental segregation/imposition of race roles (Black Athlete > Any White Fan; so there's no point in being jealous of them).

White fans instead compare themselves to white athletes. They get jealous and insecure of someone who is "like" them in one way but much much better at something they wish they were good at. It turns into this perverse hatred.



If I remember correctly, this is the same thing that happened with Larry Bird, especially when comparing him with Magic.

dukie8
03-06-2007, 06:38 PM
Absolutely true. Ask Carolina fans, and they didn't mind Brand or Ewing or Hill or a bunch of other guys... but Collins and Wojo and Christian and Ferry and JJ and (insert white player here?) OH watch the venom flow.

Honestly, I am a bit baffled as to why race is SUCH a taboo issue in basketball, to and past the point of ridiculousness. I am always amazed that no one has even mentioned that we have SO many white players contributing in a world where african american players have predominantly taken over... whether it is a discussion of academics and standards, recruiting practices, or whatever, I think it is very "stick your head in the sand" that it has never been mentioned.

they didn't mind brand, ewing or hill because they were extremely mild mannered and came across as all around good guys. can you ever recall brand or hill showing up an opponent, dunking on someone and giving them a staredown or outwardly talking smack in a game? compare how they conducted themselves in public to your group of very demonstrative, vocal, and often outwardly arrogant white guys. how many times did collins or jj give a "3" sign to the opposing crowd (collins had a knack for doing it for pretty meaningless 3s too)? everyone knew that laettner was just nasty on the court so it's no shocker that other fans didn't like him. you conveniently left off j will who also walked the fine line of arrogance and confidence and incurred the wrath of many other fans (it doesn't exactly help when you are the best player in the country either). when he taunted bc with the ball with the clock running out and then got thrown over the scorer's table, i cannot say that the national anti-duke crowd thought the kindest thoughts of him either.

throatybeard
03-06-2007, 07:21 PM
Not to make race an issue, but...

And this thread is not making race an issue...how exactly?

Susan
03-06-2007, 07:42 PM
It was once noted that we seem to only cheer heavily for our white players as well. Why is it that Lee, Pocius, and Zoubek got/get constant special cheers from fans while Ewing, Dock, Henderson, Duhon and Lance have/do not regardless of the fact that all were significantly better players?

and this is just in recent history

Well maybe not in RECENT HISTORY (as I unfortunately have only been to one Duke home game in the past 4 years), but there have been numerous cheers for black players at Duke. "Johnny is a God" was the popular one my freshman year (86-86). He still is IMHO!

The only other ones I can specifically remember for players during my four years were Alaa Abdelnaby(genuflecting and chanting Alaa) and the one white player who got his own cheer was Martin Nessley (Marty Doesn't Foul). I don't think Danny Ferry ever had a cheer. Laettner?


What about "CARMEN WALLACE, clap, clap, clap-clap-clap"

I must agree that other fans do villify our white players more. I'm not sure why. But the Maryland, UNC and Kentucky fans I know all to a person seem to have the same list--of all white players, plus Shane. You can add Chris Collins to the list of disliked white players. Paulus and McRoberts are somewhat that way now too.

Personally, players on my most disliked list tend to be players that taunted or in my opinion played dirty. Rasheed Wallace, Jeff McInnis, and Makhtar Ndjaye, and Vince Carter come to mind. This UNC team has not bothered me so much. I must admit, I really disliked Hansbrough for the past few days after our loss and the "Hendercident", but before that, I was pretty much indifferent about him. And his recent comments have gone a long way to restore that "neutral feeling" about him.

rthomas
03-06-2007, 08:39 PM
As soon as you say, "not to make race an issue", you make race an issue. What's the deal? Why IS race an issue?

devildownunder
03-06-2007, 08:41 PM
There has always been anti-Duke sentiment, but Sunday was interesting in the sense that it's the first time a black Duke player has been the direct subject of Duke hatred. If you look back at the most hated Dukies, you see the common link: Laettner, Hurley, Wojo, Krzyzewski, Redick. People hated Battier, but nowhere near the level of the aforementioned. As much as people hate Duke, our black players have always been spared the brunt of the wrath; Krzyzewski even seems to steal some of the blame this time around with his post-game comments.

I do think that Duke is sometimes -- and wrongly -- seen as "the school for star white players." And I also think that many of Duke's white players, especially the really good ones, draw a ton of heat based, in part, on the color of their skin. But I disagree that black players have never taken the heat. Battier, whose mother is white it should be noted, was a HUGE lightning rod for abuse, especially during his senior year. This was due in part, I believe, to Battier's squeaky-clean image and some overexposure. Much of the opposition's perception of Battier can be summed up in a quote I saw on another message board the year after Shane and Co. won the title: "Heck, Battier was the whitest guy on that team."

And, of course, fans of the opposition could not stand all of those charges he took. It fed right into the whole "duke gets all the calls" parnoia.

Another black player who was a "favorite" among opposing fans was Dahntay Jones, ironically for the opposite reasons as Battier. He had a reputation for being a punk, or making punklike moves. In 2003, he was very definitely hated. Probably more than JJ at that point, because Redick was still just a freshman.

Let me re-emphasize that I do agree with your basic point. Heck, every year I wait to see who among our scholarship players will become "the most hated white man in america," as I have come to describe it.

devildownunder
03-06-2007, 08:42 PM
Absolutely true. Ask Carolina fans, and they didn't mind Brand or Ewing or Hill or a bunch of other guys... but Collins and Wojo and Christian and Ferry and JJ and (insert white player here?) OH watch the venom flow.

Honestly, I am a bit baffled as to why race is SUCH a taboo issue in basketball, to and past the point of ridiculousness. I am always amazed that no one has even mentioned that we have SO many white players contributing in a world where african american players have predominantly taken over... whether it is a discussion of academics and standards, recruiting practices, or whatever, I think it is very "stick your head in the sand" that it has never been mentioned.

I've brought it up before here at DBR. So have other people. There have been some good discussions, in fact.

devildownunder
03-06-2007, 08:43 PM
I'm not even sure that Henderson has been the object of all that much scorn. Most of the stuff I've read seems to be taking this opportunity to take aim at Duke basketball and Coach K. Everybody is agreeing that he is a good guy, even all the Carolina people.

By the way, this is potentially a career changing suspension for Gerald. He has gone from a solid role player to being touted as Duke's best player in the span of a few seconds. Impressive.

I agree with pretty much all of this, and the second part is a bit funny. hehe.

devildownunder
03-06-2007, 08:50 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=neumann/070306&sportCat=ncb

this link was posted on another thread. read the list and count how many are black. it's definitely one (among many) reasons people hate duke. strangely, i've noticed much more duke-hating among white people than black - but that's a generalization with not that much basis.

thanks for that link! The explanations about why each player is on the list touched on some issues quite relevant to this thread.


I went to Virginia State University from 1991 to 95. It's a black, division II college, in the CIAA -- the same conference as Durham's NC Central. I think there may have been 2 other people on campus who were Duke fans. MAYBE. When we played tournament games during those years, I'd hunker down in my dorm room and watch the games by myself. Through the concrete walls of the old buildings, I'd hear choruses of chairs synchronized with every rally the opposition made against my Blue Devils.

Now, on a slightly different matter, I do seem to notice that some white fans have more hatred for the opposition's good white players than the opposition's good black players. I have brought this up before in earlier versions of this forum. Still not sure why it happens. Some here have said it's because seeing a white player perform athletic feats is more challenging to their self-esteem. Makes as much sense as anything I've heard, I guess.

devildownunder
03-06-2007, 08:58 PM
I've noticed the same thing that it is predominantly white fans who express this classless, irrational hatred of white Duke players. I don't have scientific ways of showing this, and my sample of black friends is probably too low...

I think in the end it comes down to insecurity about their own inability. White fans don't compare themselves to black athletes; it's a sort of mental segregation/imposition of race roles (Black Athlete > Any White Fan; so there's no point in being jealous of them).

White fans instead compare themselves to white athletes. They get jealous and insecure of someone who is "like" them in one way but much much better at something they wish they were good at. It turns into this perverse hatred.

Anyway, it's pop psychology and I have no background to offer anything more than that. I also don't know what it means or implies even if I'm even right.


I'm starting to hear this explanation consistently enough to believe there is some truth in it. If it is, then I'm glad to know the truth; however, it does sadden me because there is an element of dehumanisation black players inherent in this thinking.

Lord Ash
03-06-2007, 10:26 PM
How about this as another possible reason for the increased hatred towards white players...

Maybe it isn't REALLY about race, or at least as we think about it. Maybe what it is is REALLY a reaction to exposure, or OVER exposure, and maybe the media outlets tend to over expose white players over african american players?

Just a 100 percent, out of NOWHERE thought that may just have NO ACTUAL BASE in reality, just a thought for consumtion.

SavannahDevil
03-06-2007, 11:32 PM
That is an interesting thought, but it never seemed to me that white players got more exposure than black players. If you make a list of the top players, atleast the ones ESPN dotes over, you get.......
(bear in mind, I only closely follow the ACC)

Durant, Hansbrough, Oden, Noah, Dudley......

Or the NBA......

Shaq, Wade, Lebron, Kobe, Nash, Nowitski.....

That is only a handfull of examples, off the top of my head, but I think it is representative of the ratio of white to black player coverage. If you were to examine it carefully though, the number would probably tip more to the black players. However, this is probably just because there are a good deal more black players in basketball anyway.

Anyway, maybe it is a reaction to Duke being overexposed. Since Duke usually plays more white players than most top programs, that may be part of the issue. Which leads us back to the assertion that it stems from white fans' envy of the achievements and abilities of the white athletes.

At any rate, I don't really think it is an issue of true racism. It seems more likely that it is venemous fans looking for any angle to bash a team. The fact that more of Duke's white players catch hell, is simply because alot of the better players to come through were black and there was just not much else to rag on. Or they are more afraid of backlash for inflamatory racial statements against blacks.

Wow, I really got on a ramble there. Did any of it make sense?

Drebly1
03-07-2007, 06:32 AM
I've noticed the same thing that it is predominantly white fans who express this classless, irrational hatred of white Duke players. I don't have scientific ways of showing this, and my sample of black friends is probably too low...

I think in the end it comes down to insecurity about their own inability. White fans don't compare themselves to black athletes; it's a sort of mental segregation/imposition of race roles (Black Athlete > Any White Fan; so there's no point in being jealous of them).

White fans instead compare themselves to white athletes. They get jealous and insecure of someone who is "like" them in one way but much much better at something they wish they were good at. It turns into this perverse hatred.

Anyway, it's pop psychology and I have no background to offer anything more than that. I also don't know what it means or implies even if I'm even right.

I wonder what pop sociological/psychological analysis would suggest about the Duke student body's notoriously insensitive taunting of Juan Dixon and David Rivers? I'm sure there has to some justification, right? If those same chants and taunts were done at any other school they would have been labeled as evil and racist, but at Duke it was acceptable.

Lord Ash
03-07-2007, 06:44 AM
Hm, I am not sure what chants you mean. I remember Juan being greeted rather warmly when he played the charity game at Duke (wearing a Duke jersey; ah, that was sweet!) Which chants do you mean?

As for the exposure of players, yes, it may be a nothing; I was really just "thinking aloud/on a forum."

Highlander
03-07-2007, 06:46 AM
It was once noted that we seem to only cheer heavily for our white players as well. Why is it that Lee, Pocius, and Zoubek got/get constant special cheers from fans while Ewing, Dock, Henderson, Duhon and Lance have/do not regardless of the fact that all were significantly better players?

and this is just in recent history

No cheers for African American Players? Here are some...

"Who's your Daddy? Battier!"
"Nate's a bad ***"
"Daniel Ewing"
"Pay the Rent"
"J Will Rock You"

And that's all recent history off the top of my head.

Susan
03-07-2007, 07:06 AM
I wonder what pop sociological/psychological analysis would suggest about the Duke student body's notoriously insensitive taunting of Juan Dixon and David Rivers? I'm sure there has to some justification, right? If those same chants and taunts were done at any other school they would have been labeled as evil and racist, but at Duke it was acceptable.

Did that taunting of Dixon really happen at Duke? My understanding was that it happened at UVA. Are you sure that's not an urban legend perpetuated by Duke haters? Granted, I wasn't a student then, but every Duke fan I know has ENORMOUS respect for Dixon. He's always been one of my favorite players.

As for David Rivers, all I remember were references to Buckwheat... c'mon--that's nothing like the Maryland fans cheering when Carrawell was writhing on the floor in pain at one of the games I attended there. Fans near me there were also yelling GORILLA at Brand (no, it wasn't a fan cheer--just a few isolated obnoxious fans).

Now, I'll grant you that the Herman Veal taunt MAY have crossed the line...

Duvall
03-07-2007, 07:10 AM
I wonder what pop sociological/psychological analysis would suggest about the Duke student body's notoriously insensitive taunting of Juan Dixon and David Rivers? I'm sure there has to some justification, right? If those same chants and taunts were done at any other school they would have been labeled as evil and racist, but at Duke it was acceptable.

As we have seen, it is far more likely that such taunts happening at other schools would lead to Duke being falsely accused of them.

Susan
03-07-2007, 07:34 AM
I wonder what pop sociological/psychological analysis would suggest about the Duke student body's notoriously insensitive taunting of Juan Dixon and David Rivers? I'm sure there has to some justification, right? If those same chants and taunts were done at any other school they would have been labeled as evil and racist, but at Duke it was acceptable.

The "Duke student body's notoriously insensitive taunting of Juan Dixon" never happened. It WAS at UVA.

http://espn.go.com/magazine/vol5no06dixon.html

dukeimac
03-07-2007, 08:58 AM
Okay, this has gotten interesting.

First, my favorite Duke player is anyone who has put on a Duke uniform, period! Hill, Lat, Brand, JJ, JWill, etc. Race is only an issue if you want it to be, and small minded people want it to be, period!:D

Secondly, every player from an opposing team has been chanted about by the crazies, even some of the bench warmers. I canít remember not seeing the crazies go crazy over a player from the opposing team who committed a foul or was taking a free throw or fouled out a game. Those who score more or draw more attention to themselves, i.e. pounding their chests, etc. get more attention. Thus guys like Dixon would get more chants because they are the leaders of their team, it comes with the territory. Thus, JJ and his 3s should draw more ire from opponents, but he wanted it that is why he did it. The thing is that was what made them better. Guys like JJ, Dixon and JWill had their best performances when the crowd was the loudest, for or against them.

Thirdly, Duke gets more TV attention so they will be hated by more people. Kind of like Toyota not wanting to become the #1 auto seller in the USA because of the attention they will get, mostly negative. But they will be and it is coming. Duke is the #1 televised team so they get more negative exposure.

Thus, the more someone is complaining about you the more they are jealous of you. I donít bother complained or hating UNC because I could careless about them. The Duke haters are only jealous because Duke is considered a very reputable college and a good basketball program. Iím not sure why people would want ďUNC to go to hell,Ē is it because this year they are better than Duke (jealousy)?:confused:

No one every complains about the Duke football team, why is that? Haters are only haters because they want what they hate. And those who canít admit that are dishonest people.

P.S. Doyle is unbelievably jealous of Coach K, its funny!:eek:

Classof06
03-07-2007, 09:46 AM
I'm sorry to the few people offended by me bringing this up; I didn't mean to make race an issue, but with Duke hatred I guess it seems to be one. My point is that it was simply an observation. I've never seen a black Duke player singled out before Sunday, and I think that point is interesting. Nothing more than an observation...

The Gordog
03-07-2007, 09:47 AM
A lot of good discussion here.

I think that in addition to the pop psych idea that white fans are comparing themselves more with white athletes there are other forces at work.

First, if a white fan expresses hate of a black player that opens him/her up to charges of racism. I've seen it happen.

Second, the same fear applies doubly to the offend-no-one mainstream media.

Third, if a black fan expresses hate of a black player he/she will be accused of heresy by other black fans (for example, to hate Shane they had to offer the lame excuse that he was "the whitest guy on the team" [!])

Fourth, if a black fan expresses hate of a white player, they are largely immune from charges of racism. Don't get me wrong, 99% if the time it's probably not racism, but the expression is easier when you know you are safe from that accusation.

kjo3444
03-07-2007, 12:04 PM
As someone who is not a Duke fan, my $0.02 is that race is not the issue as much as it is the way the specific white players Duke has had over the last few years have conducted themselves on the court.

People hated and booed Chris Collins, Melchioni, and Wojo due to their redicuous over the top performances after a made 3 (Collins and Melch) or continually slapping the floor (Wojo), or consistent whining (all of the above). I think this rubs people the wrong way, whether the player is white or black.

JJ and Laettner were booed primarily because they were damned good, plus they had an arrogance to them (unlike Elton Brand or Grant Hill, who were good without being arrogant) - the booing was more of a sign of respect from opposing fans. Of course, it didn't help that Laettner was widely considered an a--, even by fellow Duke students, or that JJ's 'poetry' got so much play in the media.

Fact is, if you are going to act like a jerk and be extra demonstrative on the court, white or black (and I am looking at you, Dahntay), the opposition's fans are going to pick on you. Nature of the beast.

throatybeard
03-07-2007, 01:21 PM
I was totally unaware of the collective UNC animus towards Lee Melchionni until recently.

Kilby
03-07-2007, 01:30 PM
Good points kjo3444. I am a long time DBR reader but haven't posted in ages. I thought that I would give the new board a shot. One thing that I would add to your comments is that many of the players mentioned were overhyped by Duke fans and the media (Vitale) as the best thing since MJ. JJ was a great college player but there were other players that everyone knew had skill sets to be better pro players (not that this matters). To have how great they are thrown in your face evertime you turn on a game is inviting a backlash. This was especially true for the players that constantly make comments about how great Duke is. The diplomats, Grant Hill, Battier etc. are largely spared. Think about the tarheels we love to hate.

devildownunder
03-07-2007, 01:54 PM
A lot of good discussion here.

I think that in addition to the pop psych idea that white fans are comparing themselves more with white athletes there are other forces at work.

First, if a white fan expresses hate of a black player that opens him/her up to charges of racism. I've seen it happen.

Second, the same fear applies doubly to the offend-no-one mainstream media.

Third, if a black fan expresses hate of a black player he/she will be accused of heresy by other black fans (for example, to hate Shane they had to offer the lame excuse that he was "the whitest guy on the team" [!])

Fourth, if a black fan expresses hate of a white player, they are largely immune from charges of racism. Don't get me wrong, 99% if the time it's probably not racism, but the expression is easier when you know you are safe from that accusation.


I'm a black fan and I've never seen any evidence of black fans getting on other black fans' case for hating a black basketball player. Maybe 10 or 15 years ago, someone might have taken flack for hating a black quarterback in football but that's about it. I don't know where you are getting this. Maybe things are different in circles I have never run in but, at best, this seems to me to be a gross overgeneralization.

throatybeard
03-07-2007, 02:04 PM
To have how great they are thrown in your face evertime you turn on a game is inviting a backlash. This was especially true for the players that constantly make comments about how great Duke is. The diplomats, Grant Hill, Battier etc. are largely spared.

I like how, in the first sentence, there's a passive infinitive clause. The sentence implies that the same agent performs the throwing and the inviting. Who's doing these things? Vitale? Duke's PR office? Winnie the Pooh?

And who, precisely, are the players who "constantly" make comments about how great Duke is? Please tell us.

kjo3444
03-07-2007, 02:22 PM
Good point on the overhyping, Kilby...I think that plays a role in it as well.

For example, Wojo was not good, despite Vitale and other media members consistently hyping him. And it is amusing that he was given so much credit as an incredible defender, largely because people needed to justify why K played him so much. (For evidence, look no further than Wayne Turner just absolutely abusing him during the 1998 NCAA game where Duke blew that 17 point lead with 9 minutes left, as William Avery sat on the bench, likely wondering why the F Wojo was even in the game.)

Likewise, the class that just graduated came in as the most overhyped recruiting class ever assembled. How many times was the "Super 6, BABY!!!" screamed about, again by Vitale and others? The "greatest recruiting class ever", that would "put Michigan's Fab 5 to shame", yet they were knocked out in the Sweet 16 3 out of 4 years, Thompson couldn't get off the bench after transferring to a mid-major, Dockery was a defensive specialist with limited offensive skills, Melchioni was a 3-pt specialist with no other skills, and Shav's career was a complete disappointment (at best).

So i think you are correct, in that the overhyping plays a role (geez, just look at the poor year that 'certain NBA lottery pick' Josh McRoberts is having).

On a related note, I am a big fan of the way Paulus carries himself on the court - no trash talking, no floor slapping, no jumping into a teammates arms as a timeout is called, and no screaming after simply making a shot. JJ's quote that "he will be the next hated Duke player" is not correct, in my opinion. I like his game.

throatybeard
03-07-2007, 02:25 PM
(For evidence, look no further than Wayne Turner just absolutely abusing him during the 1998 NCAA game where Duke blew that 17 point lead with 9 minutes left, as William Avery sat on the bench, likely wondering why the F Wojo was even in the game.)

Wojo-detractors bring this single example up over and over, while ignoring the fact that Duke's high-pressure defensive scheme leaves every PG on an island and all Duke PGs in the last decade or so have gotten "blown by."

"Look no further" indeed. Seems you didn't.

Kilby
03-07-2007, 02:31 PM
"I like how, in the first sentence, there's a passive infinitive clause. The sentence implies that the same agent performs the throwing and the inviting. Who's doing these things? Vitale? Duke's PR office? Winnie the Pooh?

And who, precisely, are the players who "constantly" make comments about how great Duke is? Please tell us.
__________________
Why is it that I'd rather watch people talk about football than watch people play basketball? What has happened to me? --Colin Cowherd"

I'm not gong to call out individual players (but I do remember some good quotes). The point is mainly about the media. Every year, because Duke has set the standard you'll see stories about how Duke and K do it the right way. I'm all for it. You need that attitude that you're the best to be the best. However, the backlash is inevitable. My phone rings off the hook anytime Duke loses, and I am very wary not to lay it on too thick when talking with other fans.

MulletMan
03-07-2007, 02:33 PM
Good point on the overhyping, Kilby...I think that plays a role in it as well.

For example, Wojo was not good, despite Vitale and other media members consistently hyping him. And it is amusing that he was given so much credit as an incredible defender, largely because people needed to justify why K played him so much. (For evidence, look no further than Wayne Turner just absolutely abusing him during the 1998 NCAA game where Duke blew that 17 point lead with 9 minutes left, as William Avery sat on the bench, likely wondering why the F Wojo was even in the game.)

Likewise, the class that just graduated came in as the most overhyped recruiting class ever assembled. How many times was the "Super 6, BABY!!!" screamed about, again by Vitale and others? The "greatest recruiting class ever", that would "put Michigan's Fab 5 to shame", yet they were knocked out in the Sweet 16 3 out of 4 years, Thompson couldn't get off the bench after transferring to a mid-major, Dockery was a defensive specialist with limited offensive skills, Melchioni was a 3-pt specialist with no other skills, and Shav's career was a complete disappointment (at best).

So i think you are correct, in that the overhyping plays a role (geez, just look at the poor year that 'certain NBA lottery pick' Josh McRoberts is having).

On a related note, I am a big fan of the way Paulus carries himself on the court - no trash talking, no floor slapping, no jumping into a teammates arms as a timeout is called, and no screaming after simply making a shot. JJ's quote that "he will be the next hated Duke player" is not correct, in my opinion. I like his game.


A couple of qualms... besides the ones already addressed above.

Umm.. Michael Thompson transfered to Northwestern, which, the last time I checked, is in the Big Ten. Yes, the class of 06 lost in the sweet 16 3 times.. to an eventual Final Four team... and I like how you've selectively left out that they lost in the Final Four that "other" year in the de facto national title game to UConn. Additionally, when you quote things, it might be good to go ahead and link or reference the source.

Next time Psycho T gives us the big flex after a dunk over someone, remember that you appear to prefer a completely unemotional kind of player.

greenie227
03-07-2007, 02:49 PM
There was animus against Lee? Someone fill me in... I had no idea.

I'm still astounded to hear hatred against Paulus. I like how he handles himself on court. He rarely looks like he's pissed off either at himself or a teammate (um, McRoberts, you can stop pouting now). And Scheyer -- he's my favorite. Plays like a machine. In that sense, he reminds me of Grant Hill -- cool, calm, collected, focused on the game.

I will mention my favorite Duke player of all time -- Thomas Hill. But then, I'm a female, and his crying at the end of the famous Kentucky game just pulled me in.

throatybeard
03-07-2007, 02:51 PM
I'm still astounded to hear hatred against Paulus.

Throaty's first law of college basketball dynamics
Everyone hates everyone else's little white point guard.

kjo3444
03-07-2007, 02:52 PM
A couple of qualms... besides the ones already addressed above.

Umm.. Michael Thompson transfered to Northwestern, which, the last time I checked, is in the Big Ten. Yes, the class of 06 lost in the sweet 16 3 times.. to an eventual Final Four team... and I like how you've selectively left out that they lost in the Final Four that "other" year in the de facto national title game to UConn. Additionally, when you quote things, it might be good to go ahead and link or reference the source.

Next time Psycho T gives us the big flex after a dunk over someone, remember that you appear to prefer a completely unemotional kind of player.

1. Northwestern is the weak sister in the Big 10 - it's not like they are Illinois, Michigan State, Ohio State, Indiana, Wisconsin, or Michigan...so while technically not a 'mid-major', I felt that was giving them more credit than "1 of the bottom 4 teams every year in their conference" would. And, more efficient.

2. When losing to a team in the Sweet 16, the odds are 50/50 that they'll be a final 4 team, since they are already into the Elite 8 after the win.

3. Defacto 'final game' played in semis? I don't know about that. Don't think any NCAA games are 'gimmies', particularly the title game.

4. What would you like quoted? I'll see what i can dig up.

5. Never said I don't like emotional players - I'm just stating my opinion as to why Wojo, Collins, etc are not liked by opposing fans.

Emotion is good, and good for the game...but I'll agree with you - the next time Hansbrough slaps the floor or hits a shot midway through the game that leads to a opponent's timeout, and then runs and hugs his coach or jumps into someone's arms, I'll agree that is reason for someone to hate him.

kjo3444
03-07-2007, 02:55 PM
Throaty's first law of college basketball dynamics
Everyone hates everyone else's little white point guard.

Disagree - I like Paulus. And liked Bobby Hurley, too - he put out about as great an NCAA performance I've ever seen from a 6 footer in that game in 1993 against Kidd and Cal, after Cherokee got hurt. Almost single-handedly won that game by himself.

Spret42
03-07-2007, 02:56 PM
This is completely off topic, but I would just like to point out that when you lose in the sweet sixteen you have a 50/50 shot of it being to a final four team. This isn't a huge accomplishment.

I do wish I had the time to write about race and basketball and how it relates to Duke because Duke does occupy a very distinct place in the discussion considering the type of young men Coach Krzyzewski recruits, the school itself and the way the last 30 years of basketball have played out.

There is no bigger topic in basketball than race.

throatybeard
03-07-2007, 03:02 PM
This is completely off topic, but I would just like to point out that when you lose in the sweet sixteen you have a 50/50 shot of it being to a final four team.

That assumes that the Region Final is a statistical coin flip, which isn't the case, because you're ignoring team strength. You might as well say every team in the field has a 1-in-64 (65?) chance of winning it all.

Sometimes the team that upsets a 1-seed in the s16 faces a low-ish seed. Sometimes they face the 2 or the 3 and are an underdog.

devildownunder
03-07-2007, 03:11 PM
Good point on the overhyping, Kilby...I think that plays a role in it as well.

For example, Wojo was not good, despite Vitale and other media members consistently hyping him. And it is amusing that he was given so much credit as an incredible defender, largely because people needed to justify why K played him so much. (For evidence, look no further than Wayne Turner just absolutely abusing him during the 1998 NCAA game where Duke blew that 17 point lead with 9 minutes left, as William Avery sat on the bench, likely wondering why the F Wojo was even in the game.)

Likewise, the class that just graduated came in as the most overhyped recruiting class ever assembled. How many times was the "Super 6, BABY!!!" screamed about, again by Vitale and others? The "greatest recruiting class ever", that would "put Michigan's Fab 5 to shame", yet they were knocked out in the Sweet 16 3 out of 4 years, Thompson couldn't get off the bench after transferring to a mid-major, Dockery was a defensive specialist with limited offensive skills, Melchioni was a 3-pt specialist with no other skills, and Shav's career was a complete disappointment (at best).

So i think you are correct, in that the overhyping plays a role (geez, just look at the poor year that 'certain NBA lottery pick' Josh McRoberts is having).

On a related note, I am a big fan of the way Paulus carries himself on the court - no trash talking, no floor slapping, no jumping into a teammates arms as a timeout is called, and no screaming after simply making a shot. JJ's quote that "he will be the next hated Duke player" is not correct, in my opinion. I like his game.

Almost no one called JJ's recruiting class the "super 6" that I can recall. Before those guys arrived on campus, only JJ was perceived as a can't-miss superstar talent. williams and shav were expected to be top-notch players eventually. The rest got very little advance hype, except as a part of Duke's large recruiting class. The Battier-Brand-Burgess class got tons of hype and the williams-boozer-dunleavy class got a good amount as well -- and for good reason.

I think you have a point about the hype but not even Vitale hyperventilating about jj's class. Now, about jj himself? That's another matter.

devildownunder
03-07-2007, 03:15 PM
I'm not gong to call out individual players (but I do remember some good quotes). The point is mainly about the media. Every year, because Duke has set the standard you'll see stories about how Duke and K do it the right way. I'm all for it. You need that attitude that you're the best to be the best. However, the backlash is inevitable. My phone rings off the hook anytime Duke loses, and I am very wary not to lay it on too thick when talking with other fans.

Other fans are never going to cut you an ounce of slack as a Duke fan, even if you are as quiet and unassuming as humanly possible. So if you feel like being obnoxious, why let the repercussions stop you? They'll be on you anyway.

And as far as what players have to say about the school, what are the kids supposed to say, "Duke is awful, I hate playing here"?

Spret42
03-07-2007, 03:20 PM
I suppose that is true. At the same time, when a team gets to the elite eight, it is because they are good enough to play with and beat anyone. For my money, you throw records, seeding and ranks out the window when a team gets to the elite 8. At that point, everyone is just playing basketball and your chances of winning it all are as good as the other seven teams in the round.

But I may be simplifying things a bit. I have been often been accused of being simple.

phaedrus
03-07-2007, 03:42 PM
2. When losing to a team in the Sweet 16, the odds are 50/50 that they'll be a final 4 team, since they are already into the Elite 8 after the win.




50/50 that it happens once, maybe. When it happens three times in a row, the odds are 1 in 8.

The point isn't that it was statistically unlikely, though, it's that we got "upset" by very good teams. Last year, 4 seed LSU went on to beat 2 seed Texas, and the year before, 5 seed Michigan State beat 2 seed kentucky. No shame in losing to very good teams that get hot at the right time.

kjo3444
03-07-2007, 03:47 PM
Almost no one called JJ's recruiting class the "super 6" that I can recall. Before those guys arrived on campus, only JJ was perceived as a can't-miss superstar talent. williams and shav were expected to be top-notch players eventually. The rest got very little advance hype, except as a part of Duke's large recruiting class. The Battier-Brand-Burgess class got tons of hype and the williams-boozer-dunleavy class got a good amount as well -- and for good reason.

I think you have a point about the hype but not even Vitale hyperventilating about jj's class. Now, about jj himself? That's another matter.

Almost nobody called them the Super 6? This is what i could find after 2 minutes of googling...


http://nbadraft.rivals.com/content.asp?SID=1167&CID=103090


http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=144874



http://nbadraft.rivals.com/content.asp?SID=1167&CID=44408


http://6news.kusports.com/news/mens_hoop_recruiting/story/68510

""Everybody around here calls it the 'Super Six.' Dave Telep (bluechiprecruits.com) calls it the 'Selected Six,'" said Al Featherston of the Durham Herald-Sun. "It's the 'Selected Six' because (Duke coach) Mike Krzyzewski selected those six and got them all."


http://www.bigbadreviews.com/2004/10/duke-eyes-recruits-to-fill-gaps.html


http://media.www.dukechronicle.com/media/storage/paper884/news/2003/09/24/Sports/Commentary.The.New.Way.To.Recruit-1464966.shtml

Keep in mind that 4 of the 6 were McD AA's, and a 5th (Shelden) would have been, if he hadn't been tossed from his HS team.

Spret42
03-07-2007, 04:07 PM
I don't think anyone is going to argue that those six young men were not very highly rated as basketball players when they arrived at Duke. They were very good, highly rated and fully capable of winning a ton of games.

It would be stupid to say that their losing in the sweet sixteen 3 out of 4 years was in some way a failure. Look, the other guy was trying just as hard. He made plays and won the damned game.

The one year that group made the Final Four was the one year they had a guy that was pure platinum in Luol Deng. Anyone who pays attention to the NBA can see that Deng can play basketball. I personally attribute 75% of Duke's success to the damned players on the court. It is their talent and their ability that wins games. Red Auerbach won countless titles with 7 basic plays and by putting the right combination of tremendous talent and skill together in the players on the floor.

You keep Deng for one more year and Duke wins the NCAA title. Without him, the other guy won.

phaedrus
03-07-2007, 04:19 PM
Keep in mind that 4 of the 6 were McD AA's, and a 5th (Shelden) would have been, if he hadn't been tossed from his HS team.

it's hard to discern what you're arguing for at this point. you start out by saying they were overhyped (presumably you found this offensive) - then you concede that 5 of them were, in fact, among the top high schoolers in the country. which is it?

by the way, i don't recall the fab five winning a championship either.

MulletMan
03-07-2007, 04:23 PM
1. Northwestern is the weak sister in the Big 10 - it's not like they are Illinois, Michigan State, Ohio State, Indiana, Wisconsin, or Michigan...so while technically not a 'mid-major', I felt that was giving them more credit than "1 of the bottom 4 teams every year in their conference" would. And, more efficient.

2. When losing to a team in the Sweet 16, the odds are 50/50 that they'll be a final 4 team, since they are already into the Elite 8 after the win.

3. Defacto 'final game' played in semis? I don't know about that. Don't think any NCAA games are 'gimmies', particularly the title game.

4. What would you like quoted? I'll see what i can dig up.

5. Never said I don't like emotional players - I'm just stating my opinion as to why Wojo, Collins, etc are not liked by opposing fans.

Emotion is good, and good for the game...but I'll agree with you - the next time Hansbrough slaps the floor or hits a shot midway through the game that leads to a opponent's timeout, and then runs and hugs his coach or jumps into someone's arms, I'll agree that is reason for someone to hate him.


1. Well... for one thing, conference affiliation is not subjective. Northwestern is in the Big Ten. Period. And to say that they're not this program or that program is ridiculous. They're NOT a mid-major.

2. The odds are not 50/50 exactly if you consider all of the possible probability and statistics involved, as Throaty pointed out, but, my point is this.. in their first season, that class lost to Kansas (national runner-up), in thier second they lost to eventual NC UConn in the Final Four, in thier 3rd year they lost to Michigan State (too bad they lost to a mid-major) and in thier senior year they lost to LSU (national runner-up). The point being that they always lost to the regional champion, and that most schools would kill for such a class.

3. Pardon my wording. Yes, all the games count. However, a number of talking heads considered that UConn-Duke game the matchup of the two best teams in the Final Four that year. My point, however, was that in your asessment of the JJ/Shelden class, you happened to leave out the fact that they won a regional title and played in the Final Four, losing by 1 point to the eventual national champion. Again, I would hardly label that as a failure. Especially when you are comparing that class' collective achievements to the Fab 5, who according to the NCAA and the Big Ten, never even made it to a Final Four. :D

4. The exact things I was refering to, as I had heard some variation of The Super Six, were the quoted "greatest recruiting class ever" and "put Michigan's Fab 5 to shame". The former of which has probably been used to describe a class at some school every year for the past 10 years.

5. I didn't ask you what you would do the next time that Hansbrough did something that Collins, Wojo or any other Duke player did. I asked what your opinion is of what Tyler does? Is his emotion OK when he screams after a big dunk? Why is that fine, but not slapping the floor?

Oh wait... I see it... the double standard.

throatybeard
03-07-2007, 05:19 PM
You keep Deng for one more year and Duke wins the NCAA title.

You say that as if it's unassailable fact. It isn't. it's merely an opinion, a projection. No team is a sure thing in a single-elimination, six-round tournament. That's been demonstrated time after time since 1985.

Lord Ash
03-07-2007, 05:41 PM
If I may...

First off, the hatred of Wojo is STUPID. I mean, just plain stupid. He won National Defensive Player of the Year, was an honorable mention All American, and had the second most steals in a season ever at Duke, which has taken home the award NDPotY award EIGHT of the last 20 years or something ridiculous like that. Sure, Wojo wasn't cutting to the hoop and dunking it, but he was a perfectly good player, and one who ANYONE at the time would have taken on their own team in a second.

Second... so here, back to the topic of race... why DOES Duke feature SO many white players in the rotation compared to the other schools in the ACC? It is certainly a bit different... is this really just blind luck? Do academics figure in? Does Coach K recruit in certain places more than others?

johnb
03-07-2007, 05:54 PM
Good and bad aspects of our selves meld unevenly inside of us. We separate them intrapsychically. If chronic and persistent, the splitting can lead to primitive personality disorders and psychoses. We can also separate them out more acutely during periods of regression, like during severe illness, stress, substance use, and the watching of basketball games. We keep the good inside of us and project the bad out into the world and into a demonized construct that fulfills our own latent transferential paradigms. We can feel good internally and then vilify the externalized manifestation of our own bad feelings.

Who should be the target of these projected bad feelings? Such a decision is unconscious and overdetermined, but possible issues include social acceptability. For most white people, for example, it is probably more palatable to shout epithets at white men than black men. Among some A-A groups, it may be more acceptable to identify with the underdogs/underclass/team with the most black players as a demonstration that you hang with the right subgroup and haven't lost your identity as a black man.

In general, Duke is a great lightning rod. Every sports fan knows that Duke undergrads are not simply typical hoops fans, which is the truth, but THE BEST FANS IN THE WORLD, AND THEY MADE 1500 ON THE SAT'S, BABY. Such idealization of Duke undergrads and players over the last 20 years has led to an entire generation of people who become polarized over whether to idealize or deidealize, to project into us the aforementioned badness or, instead, to project out goodness into Duke. Why spill your own precious goodness into an anonymous group of players, most of whom might say hello if you share a class but with whom you would otherwise have no connection? One reason to project out the goodness and create an idealized team/school is an unconscious but powerful attempt for Duke to be a normalizing force through which the world becomes a safe, familiar place. We can identify with the greatness and feel great, ourselves. Further, Duke-as-great means that there is an idealized force to keep uncertainty and evil away from us. This is why the country needs Duke. Not just to hate. Not just to love. But to keep us calm when all else is fragile and crumbling.

Spret42
03-07-2007, 06:44 PM
You say that as if it's unassailable fact. It isn't. it's merely an opinion, a projection. No team is a sure thing in a single-elimination, six-round tournament. That's been demonstrated time after time since 1985.

Oh jeez, I meant it as a bit of hyperbole. Of course nothing is for sure.
My point was Deng was the final piece of the puzzle for that team. He greatly raised the possiblility of their winning a national title.

dukie8
03-07-2007, 08:28 PM
You say that as if it's unassailable fact. It isn't. it's merely an opinion, a projection. No team is a sure thing in a single-elimination, six-round tournament. That's been demonstrated time after time since 1985.

you mean like the '99 team that was a lock to win it?

captmojo
03-08-2007, 03:02 AM
why hate someone based on skin color when there are so many other valid reasons?

devildownunder
03-08-2007, 05:27 AM
Almost nobody called them the Super 6? This is what i could find after 2 minutes of googling...


http://nbadraft.rivals.com/content.asp?SID=1167&CID=103090


http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=144874



http://nbadraft.rivals.com/content.asp?SID=1167&CID=44408


http://6news.kusports.com/news/mens_hoop_recruiting/story/68510

""Everybody around here calls it the 'Super Six.' Dave Telep (bluechiprecruits.com) calls it the 'Selected Six,'" said Al Featherston of the Durham Herald-Sun. "It's the 'Selected Six' because (Duke coach) Mike Krzyzewski selected those six and got them all."


http://www.bigbadreviews.com/2004/10/duke-eyes-recruits-to-fill-gaps.html


http://media.www.dukechronicle.com/media/storage/paper884/news/2003/09/24/Sports/Commentary.The.New.Way.To.Recruit-1464966.shtml

Keep in mind that 4 of the 6 were McD AA's, and a 5th (Shelden) would have been, if he hadn't been tossed from his HS team.

I stand corrected. All I remember about that class was it being projected as a good collection of players who would fit in nicely at Duke -- with williams and especially jj projected as potential big-timers.

The only qualification I will add is that the McD AA's thing really doesn't mean all that much anymore. Way too often, kids shoot up the rankings simply because a name school takes some interest in them. Happens all time and many people here have brought it up.

That said, I was arong about the whole super six thing. My bad.