The so called Jordan/Lebron debate.

[wgl1228]

First let me say that although it's fun start thinking about, I don't think we can appropriately analyze this situation until Lebron calls it a career. I grew up in the Jordan era and still to this day believe Jordan to be the greatest of all time. However, it troubles me that people have already dug in the trenches and will never say that Lebron could end up being as good or better. I have already seen it this morning. "Jordan wouldn't have missed this shot or that shot." Well, Jordan missed plenty of big shots and made some too. You all have seen the same pundits and players that I'm talking about on your TV screen every day. Their eyes get real big and they become angry and start yelling over anyone who would suggest Lebron could surpass Jordan. Anyway, just a small rant here from someone who's had enough of Lebron haters. The NBA Finals have been fantastic!

[rasputin]

First let me say that although it's fun start thinking about, I don't think we can appropriately analyze this situation until Lebron calls it a career. I grew up in the Jordan era and still to this day believe Jordan to be the greatest of all time. However, it troubles me that people have already dug in the trenches and will never say that Lebron could end up being as good or better. I have already seen it this morning. "Jordan wouldn't have missed this shot or that shot." Well, Jordan missed plenty of big shots and made some too. You all have seen the same pundits and players that I'm talking about on your TV screen every day. Their eyes get real big and they become angry and start yelling over anyone who would suggest Lebron could surpass Jordan. Anyway, just a small rant here from someone who's had enough of Lebron haters. The NBA Finals have been fantastic!

Two words: Bill Russell.

[bjornolf]

There was a guy on the radio that said he wasn't a big fan of the idea of a greatest of all time, because the game has changed too much over the years. It wasn't an apples to apples comparison. He preferred the best of each era idea. I kind of like that too.

[Mal]

I'm always amused when what is essentially a barstool conversation/debate, which inherently has no "right" answer, becomes really heated. It strikes me that there's usually something psychological behind it. In this case, my sense is that the people who are so adamant about there being no way on Earth Lebron James can ever be seen as even approaching, much less surpassing, Michael Jordan in their estimation, are overwhelmingly between 35 and 50 years old and came of age, either as sports fans or, more to the point for the most vocal of these people, as sports journalists or commentators, around Jordan's peak. They have something invested in having been around to watch the g.o.a.t. in person in his prime. They feel some slight bit of, not ownership, perhaps, but certainly connection with, his success, for having been there to proclaim him the g.o.a.t. in the moment. Some of their sports fan cred is wrapped up in Michael Jordan being the best. So, understandably, some folks are completely unreceptive to the notion that Jordan could ever be surpassed, at least in their lifetime but especially not less than 20 years after his prime. He was so astounding to watch, and the glow of seeing him so rosy in memory, that it was inconceivable that they'd ever see anyone approach that level of special again. And so, having to even contemplate Lebron James annoys them because it threatens to invalidate their own history. We've been seeing the pushback and haters, especially among that age cohort, since James came into the league a decade ago, because he constituted a threat.

[As an aside, I would also posit that a part of the defensiveness of the Michael camp comes from being Gen X-ers, who have their entire lives been treated as an afterthought to the awesomeness of Boomers and a lame precursor to the brilliance of the Millenials and :mad:@$#%#$()*%(%$^@#*:mad: why can't you at least just let us have the greatest basketball player of all time!!!!!!]

A part of me thinks some of the people pushing the storyline and questioning here are just trolling those 35-50 year-old dudes. Which I'm OK with, I guess, 'cause I think anyone who gets that fired up about such a subjective matter deserves the trolling.

There's a second factor, too, I guess, which is weariness with the new media saturation age: Lebron was hyped as the challenger to His Airness since he was 16, and since that started in the Internet Age it got tiresome quickly. It's easy to have some displaced animosity toward James based on how much attention he's gotten his entire career.

In any event, different eras, different body types, different position(s), different teams and teammates, different league, different game, different roles. It's not like comparing two starting pitchers in the American League who had overlapping careers. Whether Lebron is/will be comparable to Jordan, and whether anyone else is (or surpasses him/them), as well, is all a matter of taxonomy and valuation criteria. What is "great?"

[luburch]

I've always thought that the better LeBron comparison would be to Magic and not MJ. Not because I feel MJ is on a different level (IMO Jordan's probably the 3rd/4th best of all time) but because of their styles of play.

[FerryFor50]

A lot of people dig in about Jordan being the greatest because Nike drilled it into their brains. A lot of it is just marketing.

[Bostondevil]

I go with Jordan in the debate for now.

But the argument that really matters to me . . .

Laettner was the best college player of all time. Jordan isn't even in that discussion! Who is? Only Abdul-Jabbar/Alcindor and Walton.

OK - back to deciding the professional g.o.a.t.

[BrazyATX]

Stats are such that you can twist them anyway you want to fit your stance. Using basic stats though, Lebron is likely to pass Jordan in rebounds next season and points in about 3 seasons (putting him 3rd all time). He has already surpassed him in assists and turnovers too (LBJ holds the edge in A:T ratio 2.11 to 1.93). Lebron fouls less per game than Jordan did (1.86 to 2.59 per game) but Jordan has way more steals (LBJ could catch him, but at his average it would take almost another 7 seasons). Jordan's FG% was only .001 higher than Lebron's is now, Lebron's 3P% is better (surprisingly), but Jordan's FT% is better.

The biggest statistical area that Jordan pulls away from Lebron is in the playoffs. If basketball reference is current, Jordan has only played 3 more playoff games than Lebron to date, but has scored more than 1000 points more over the same number of games, with better percentages across the board.

You could go at this ad nauseum. I'll wait and see where Lebron sits after the next 3 seasons. At that point they would each have a 15 year career to compare. If Lebron is able to pull it off and win this year, he'll have 3 years to get two more to tie in Championships. If that happens over the same 15 year career, the Jordan supporters will have a much harder time.

[Edouble]

I don't care what one's answer is, I'm just sick of talking about this. It's so incredibly pointless. LeBron is still in his prime. You have to wait until he's done playing!!!

You can't get through a Finals game now without Jordan's name being brought up. And I'm a huge Jordan fan, but "ugh"! The local talk radio station here in Atlanta has to ask what LeBron's legacy will be if he does or does not win the series, after every game! Seriously? I'm taking a wait and see approach and focusing on the present.

[Edouble]

First let me say that although it's fun start thinking about, I don't think we can appropriately analyze this situation until Lebron calls it a career. I grew up in the Jordan era and still to this day believe Jordan to be the greatest of all time. However, it troubles me that people have already dug in the trenches and will never say that Lebron could end up being as good or better. I have already seen it this morning. "Jordan wouldn't have missed this shot or that shot." Well, Jordan missed plenty of big shots and made some too. You all have seen the same pundits and players that I'm talking about on your TV screen every day. Their eyes get real big and they become angry and start yelling over anyone who would suggest Lebron could surpass Jordan. Anyway, just a small rant here from someone who's had enough of Lebron haters. The NBA Finals have been fantastic!

I've enjoyed watching, but I think fantastic is a bit much. There has been some ugly basketball played. Cavs entire front court (including LBJ) has trouble scoring in the paint... and I'm talking 2-3 foot shots. The Warriors have struggled offensively. The MVP/G(shooter)OAT has disappeared for looong stretches. Bogut and Green have tried to make it ugly themselves. Delly's emergence has been fun, but overall, I wouldn't consider the series "fantastic".

[gurufrisbee]

I do often get sucked into this debate, but to me it's often been very, very funny. I'll admit right up front, while I want to be open minded and want to hear other solid perspectives, all I've really ever heard on this matter has been really stupid arguments and serious lack of logics and I'm pretty sure I'm very jaded and stuck at this stage with my thoughts. I didn't want to be, but that's what happens when you keep hearing dumb counter positions (much like the 'Duke haters' camp).

Lebron is #1. It's not really all that close.

Jordan is not #2. Oscar Robertson is. Whoever is at 3 (and that is pretty open), is still well behind the big O.

Jordan might be #3. So might Russell, Wilt, Abdul Jabbar, Magic, and others.

The Jordan/Lebron debate fails for Jordan for so many reasons. Jordan really has four arguments for him:

A) Lebron isn't done. This one fails badly because Lebron already compares favorably in so many ways that more time is just going to extend Lebron's lead over Jordan. Assuming Jordan's ego doesn't bring back for yet one more retirement show.

B) Hype. Most of Jordan's edges are on things that 100% product of hype. MVP's, 1st team whatevers, and more than anything the fact that the media and the league and NIke and the basketball world spent the last decade of Jordan's career desperately promoting him as the greatest because they were so fearful that when Bird and Magic left that the league would again drop to where it was before those two came and being on edge of total collapse.

C) Titles. This one is so obnoxious and ridiculous. Yes, Jordan has six and Lebron has two. Of course if titles was really the end all measurement then Bill Russell runs circles around Jordan and Jordan is behind such greats as Robert Horry and Jim Loscutoff. But that's only part of the problem with this one. It's a terrible measure for greatest player because it's not at all about a single player. It's a TEAM accomplishment and it has everything to do with a) how loaded the team is and b) how weak the rest of the competition is. The first thing every pro-Jordan person says when you bring up Bill Russell is that his team was super loaded (and it was) and the rest of the league wasn't very strong (which it was). The problem is that the exact same things are true about Jordan's Bull's titles. The six years the Bulls won there was only ever ONE other team that had two HOF players (the Jazz - who had nothing else) and the Bulls had two or three (Rodman) and also had multiple other all star level guys (Horace Grant, BJ Armstrong, Toni Kukoc, Ron Harper). The Bulls SHOULD have won every won of those titles. How good were they? When Jordan left to play baseball the Bulls STILL were one of the best teams in the league. The league had just been watered down with lots of expansion and the international stars were not coming over yet. Having ONE hall of fame level guy made you a title contender (Sonics-Payton, Blazers-Drexler, Magic-Shaq, Suns-Barkley). These days, that's not even close. Every year now you see multiple teams with two or three HOF level guys (Spurs-Duncan, Parker, Ginobili, Celtics-Pierce, Garnett, Allen, Rondo), OKC, where ever Dwight Howard is, where ever Pau Gasol is, etc.).

D) Jordan made everyone around him better. This is another great myth, but wildly untrue. BJ Armstrong was an all star - once Jordan left. Horace Grant was an all star - once Jordan left (as well as the one year in that stretch of eight where they won six titles that they did not win with Jordan was also the one year Grant was gone and Rodman wasn't there yet). Toni Kukoc would have been an all star the year of the lock out if they had not cancelled the game that year - it was his best year - after Jordan left again. Ron Harper was regularly putting up 20 ppg seasons - before he joined the Bulls. The real WINNER with those Bulls teams was actually Scottie Pippen. In fact Jordan has a decently rough case that he is even better all time than Pippen. The Bulls were a losing team for three years with Jordan but when Pippen got there THEN they became a contender and started winning titles. Jordan went to stroke his ego pretending he played baseball and the Bulls with Pippen were still among the NBA elite. Jordan came back and they kept winning (with Pippen and Rodman). Then Jordan AND Pippen left and the Bulls stunk. But Pippen went to Houston and they were elite. And then Pippen went to Portland and they became elite. Jordan went to Washington - and they were losers. EVERYWHERE Pippen went they were winners. Pippen was also the better passer, the better rebounder, and the better defender (Phil ALWAYS put him on the toughest match up - never Jordan).

Jordan twice was faced with being on teams as low in talent as the two Cavs teams Lebron has led to the NBA Finals. Once he had two losing seasons in a row in Washington. The time before that he quit.

Lebron is a better passer. Better rebounder. Better defender. He's just as capable of scoring, but usually doesn't shoot as much (these finals being an obvious exception - where he has to be the scorer so he breaks all time NBA Finals scoring records). Getting to 6 NBA finals in this era is just as impressive, if not more so, than winning six when there is really no legitimate competition. He's got comparable numbers of MVPs and gold medals and 1st team all NBA's and all that stuff. His all time numbers aren't as high because he's still playing, but he's played long enough that none of them are flukes. He's on pace to pass Jordan in total points when he is just 34. He's already passed him in assists (he'll move into the all time top ten in the league when he's 34, too). He'll pass Jordan in rebounds early next season (when he's 34 he'll only be about 60th all time in league history in rebounds). When he's 34 James will be about 12th all time in steals (which still will have him behind Jordan). He'll pass Jordan in blocked shots when he's 32 or 33.

Yeah, it's still a silly argument.

[gurufrisbee]

The finals - hmmm, I can see both sides. There has been some ugly basketball. And it's been very sad to see how poorly Mozgov and Thompson shoot inside and how poorly Green and Barnes shoot everywhere. So in that sense, it's not been fantastic. BUT, considering that the Warriors this season on paper with their win total and leading the league in FG% AND in defensive FG% and having the MVP and the deepest roster maybe since the Russell Celtics and the Cavs on the other hand are down three starters and talent wise their roster shouldn't have even made the playoffs (seriously - Miami and OKC both missed and both are way better), this thing should have been four, quick, ugly, lopsided blowout Warrior wins. And instead we've had 3.75 incredibly close, hard fought, exciting games that could have gone either way (the 4th quarters of game 4 being the exception) - and it's 2-2 right now. In that sense, it's been very intriguing and engaging and kind of fantastic.

[royalblue]

Great info guru the more I read the more Jordan falls behind:)) I have always seen Pip as a winner thanks for the reinforcement

[Olympic Fan]

Jordan himself defined the debate. The last time this came up, he responded with a simple: "Count the rings"

That does give him a huge edge over LeBron ... but leaves him far, FAR behind Bill Russell.

The only thing he has over Russell is that MJ played in the ESPN era and we got to see his highlights every night. If Russell had the same exposure, his daily highlights would blow you away.

Oscar, Wilt and a few others put up big stats. But as we see in current players such as Carmelo and Westbrook this year, big stats do not equal greatness. Greatness leads to championships and NOBODY generated more championships than Russell.

As for the best college player ... well, Alcindor ands maybe Laettner (for his NCAA success) are in the mix, but don't forget a guy named David Thompson.

PS As for Guru's assertion that titles don't matter because those are team accomplishments ... well, it's true nobody ever won a title alone. Jordan never won without Pippin ... LeBron's two titles were won with Wade and Bosch. Kobe needed Shaq and Gasol. Russell did play with good players. But consider this -- before his arrival, Boston had never played even in the East finals, much less won a title. They win 11 in 13 years with him (missing the one year he was hurt in the finals). After beating the West-Wilt Lakers for the title in seven games for his 11th title, Russell retires ... and the Celtics missed the playoffs the next season.

[BrazyATX]

Well this ought to bring out the haters:

LeBron James, the greatest basketball player in the world, correctly stated that he was the greatest basketball player in the world after his Cleveland Cavaliers lost to the Golden State Warriors in Game 5 of the NBA Finals on Sunday.

"I feel confident [despite being down 3-2 in the series] because I'm the best player in the world," James said Sunday. "It's that simple."


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/15/lebron-james-best-player-in-the-world_n_7584914.html

[gurufrisbee]

For years Lebron got slammed by the haters for being too passive and not shooting enough or in the crunch moments. He also got slammed for not having the arrogance and killer instinct that Jordan had. And now at this stage he is shooting more and scoring better than ANYONE and already has made as many clutch playoff shots as MJ ever did and now is showing the arrogance and killer instinct as much too. And now the haters are getting on him for all of those things.

And Jordan has no right to define the debate at all. "Count the rings"? How about count the rings you won when you weren't the most loaded team in the league by far? If you make it just about winning then it's illogical in the context of team basketball, it's a massive fail not because the game changes in different times but because the competitive balance of the league changes WILDLY depending on the time, and it still makes Jordan lose badly to Russell and slightly to Robert Horry.

[royalblue]

If King James can win games 6 and 7 with an incomplete roster to say the least I hope that will start up the Michael who chants:) The only plus to the King losing is he has not won it all with out Shane by his side.
All that said how can you not like the Curry's

[CDu]

For years Lebron got slammed by the haters for being too passive and not shooting enough or in the crunch moments. He also got slammed for not having the arrogance and killer instinct that Jordan had. And now at this stage he is shooting more and scoring better than ANYONE and already has made as many clutch playoff shots as MJ ever did and now is showing the arrogance and killer instinct as much too. And now the haters are getting on him for all of those things.

And Jordan has no right to define the debate at all. "Count the rings"? How about count the rings you won when you weren't the most loaded team in the league by far? If you make it just about winning then it's illogical in the context of team basketball, it's a massive fail not because the game changes in different times but because the competitive balance of the league changes WILDLY depending on the time, and it still makes Jordan lose badly to Russell and slightly to Robert Horry.

I agree with most of your take but with a few exceptions:
1. Jordan was a better defender than James, not the other way around. James is a good defender, but Jordan was better.
2. Jordan's teams weren't better than the rest by a wide margin. They were better than some of James' teams for sure. But then again, some of the teams Jordan had to overcome were WAY better than the teams that LeBron has had to overcome. Early in Jordan's career, he was stuck with a supporting cast similar to LeBron's Cavs teams. But instead of a weak Eastern Conference, he had to go through the Bird/McHale/Parish Celtics and the Thomas/Dumars/Laimbeer/Rodman Pistons. And there were very good 76ers (Barkley, Erving) and Hawks (Wilkins, Willis) teams as well. The Eastern Conference of the 1980s was stacked, and in the 1980s Jordan had as little (or less) help than LeBron. In the 1990s, Jordan had Pippen. But that was it. From there, it was a bunch of role players. From 1991 to 1993, Horace Grant was a solid player, but not a standout at all. And nobody else was even a starting caliber player. From 1996-1998, Kukoc was a solid 6th man and Rodman was a rebounding fiend who couldn't shoot, but again nobody else was really a starting-caliber player. What made those Jordan/Pippen teams great was Jordan and Pippen.

I totally agree that titles are a terrible metric for measuring individual greatness though. And I agree that the argument is silly in general. Just too hard to compare across eras.

[CDu]

PS As for Guru's assertion that titles don't matter because those are team accomplishments ... well, it's true nobody ever won a title alone. Jordan never won without Pippin ... LeBron's two titles were won with Wade and Bosch. Kobe needed Shaq and Gasol. Russell did play with good players. But consider this -- before his arrival, Boston had never played even in the East finals, much less won a title. They win 11 in 13 years with him (missing the one year he was hurt in the finals). After beating the West-Wilt Lakers for the title in seven games for his 11th title, Russell retires ... and the Celtics missed the playoffs the next season.

Well, let's be fair about this. The Celtics went 39-33 (2nd in the East) the year before Russell arrived. They were pretty darn good, with Bob Cousy and Bill Sharman. They lost in the playoffs in part because of a weird best-of-3 series format in which they lost 2-1.

The following season, the Celtics added Bill Russell and future Hall of Famer Tommy Heinsohn to the mix, and got future Hall of Famer Frank Ramsay back from military service (he missed the 1956 season)... and they went 44-28 (1st in the East). So it is not like Russell came in and singlehandedly changed the fortunes of the Celtics altogether. He came in the same year as another future Hall of Famer, and the Celtics only got a little bit better that year.

The following season, the Celtics added yet another future Hall of Famer in Sam Jones. And a few years later, after Sharman retired and right before Cousy retired, they added yet another Hall of Famer in John Havlicek.

And the year that Russell retired? Also the same year that Sam Jones (fellow Hall of Famer) retired.

So I think a pretty fair argument can be made that Russell wasn't solely the reason that the Celtics went from decent to great and then back to just okay afterwards. He came into the league along with a couple of Hall of Famers, and he left the league at the same time as a fellow Hall of Famer, and all throughout he shared the court with at least two other Hall of Famers.

Russell's Celtics teams were absolutely loaded throughout his career.

[Indoor66]

Well, let's be fair about this. The Celtics went 39-33 (2nd in the East) the year before Russell arrived. They were pretty darn good, with Bob Cousy and Bill Sharman. They lost in the playoffs in part because of a weird best-of-3 series format in which they lost 2-1.

The following season, the Celtics added Bill Russell and future Hall of Famer Tommy Heinsohn to the mix, and got future Hall of Famer Frank Ramsay back from military service (he missed the 1956 season)... and they went 44-28 (1st in the East). So it is not like Russell came in and singlehandedly changed the fortunes of the Celtics altogether. He came in the same year as another future Hall of Famer, and the Celtics only got a little bit better that year.

The following season, the Celtics added yet another future Hall of Famer in Sam Jones. And a few years later, after Sharman retired and right before Cousy retired, they added yet another Hall of Famer in John Havlicek.

And the year that Russell retired? Also the same year that Sam Jones (fellow Hall of Famer) retired.

So I think a pretty fair argument can be made that Russell wasn't solely the reason that the Celtics went from decent to great and then back to just okay afterwards. He came into the league along with a couple of Hall of Famers, and he left the league at the same time as a fellow Hall of Famer, and all throughout he shared the court with at least two other Hall of Famers.

Russell's Celtics teams were absolutely loaded throughout his career.

Bingo. Also throw into the mix the coach and GM - Red Auerbach - who may well be the GOAT at both jobs.

[gurufrisbee]

I agree with most of your take but with a few exceptions:
1. Jordan was a better defender than James, not the other way around. James is a good defender, but Jordan was better.
2. Jordan's teams weren't better than the rest by a wide margin. They were better than some of James' teams for sure. But then again, some of the teams Jordan had to overcome were WAY better than the teams that LeBron has had to overcome. Early in Jordan's career, he was stuck with a supporting cast similar to LeBron's Cavs teams. But instead of a weak Eastern Conference, he had to go through the Bird/McHale/Parish Celtics and the Thomas/Dumars/Laimbeer/Rodman Pistons. And there were very good 76ers (Barkley, Erving) and Hawks (Wilkins, Willis) teams as well. The Eastern Conference of the 1980s was stacked, and in the 1980s Jordan had as little (or less) help than LeBron. In the 1990s, Jordan had Pippen. But that was it. From there, it was a bunch of role players. From 1991 to 1993, Horace Grant was a solid player, but not a standout at all. And nobody else was even a starting caliber player. From 1996-1998, Kukoc was a solid 6th man and Rodman was a rebounding fiend who couldn't shoot, but again nobody else was really a starting-caliber player. What made those Jordan/Pippen teams great was Jordan and Pippen.

I totally agree that titles are a terrible metric for measuring individual greatness though. And I agree that the argument is silly in general. Just too hard to compare across eras.

Well we'll have to disagree on these then.
1) Lebron is a better defensive player than Jordan. Lebron is constantly guarding the toughest match up from guards to centers. And every year he is league wide recognized for his defensive abilities. Jordan never guarded anyone but perimeter players and never guarded the toughest match up. That always went to Pippen - and Jordan didn't even guard the second best perimeter player once Harper was there.
2) Yes, the Eastern Conference was strong in the 80's - but Jordan never won in the 80's. Nor did the Bulls ever play the 76ers or Hawks in the playoffs. They lost to the Celtics a couple times and then the Celtics got old and the Pistons took over as big dog in the east and the Bulls lost to them a couple times. Then they started to get old and the Bulls passed them and there was no one left to contend with. Pippen was absolutely one of the five best players in the league every year they won the title. Horace Grant was one of the best power forwards in the league and Dennis Rodman is a Hall of Famer. BJ Armstrong was an all star during their title years. Cartwright and Longley weren't stars but they were better centers than half the league had. Paxson was a very solid starting guard. Harper had been near all star level before coming there to score less and win more. Kukoc won 6th man of the year and would have been an all star the year they cancelled it for the lock out. They were absolutely loaded - and far more loaded than anyone else. When Jordan went to go strike it out in Birmingham the Bulls were still one of the elite teams in the NBA. Pippen was a big part of that, but the rest of the team was loaded too.

[CDu]

Well we'll have to disagree on these then.
1) Lebron is a better defensive player than Jordan. Lebron is constantly guarding the toughest match up from guards to centers. And every year he is league wide recognized for his defensive abilities. Jordan never guarded anyone but perimeter players and never guarded the toughest match up. That always went to Pippen - and Jordan didn't even guard the second best perimeter player once Harper was there.
2) Yes, the Eastern Conference was strong in the 80's - but Jordan never won in the 80's. Nor did the Bulls ever play the 76ers or Hawks in the playoffs. They lost to the Celtics a couple times and then the Celtics got old and the Pistons took over as big dog in the east and the Bulls lost to them a couple times. Then they started to get old and the Bulls passed them and there was no one left to contend with. Pippen was absolutely one of the five best players in the league every year they won the title. Horace Grant was one of the best power forwards in the league and Dennis Rodman is a Hall of Famer. BJ Armstrong was an all star during their title years. Cartwright and Longley weren't stars but they were better centers than half the league had. Paxson was a very solid starting guard. Harper had been near all star level before coming there to score less and win more. Kukoc won 6th man of the year and would have been an all star the year they cancelled it for the lock out. They were absolutely loaded - and far more loaded than anyone else. When Jordan went to go strike it out in Birmingham the Bulls were still one of the elite teams in the NBA. Pippen was a big part of that, but the rest of the team was loaded too.

We can certainly agree to disagree on who is better defensively. But what you are saying in #1 is just not true. LeBron does not guard the best player or even the second best player. In this series, he guards Barnes, while Dellavedova guards Curry and Shumpert/Smith guards Thompson, and Thompson guards Green. In the Atlanta series he guarded Carroll. In the Chicago series he guarded Noah and played centerfield.

In Miami, LeBron would generally guard the better wing player to hide Wade. But he rarely guarded PGs and he rarely guarded bigs unless they were bad. It has been a few years since LeBron has played great defense or has even been asked to play great defense. And it has never been true that he primarily guards the opposing best player regardless of position.

Jordan didn't guard as many positions, but the pnes he did guard (PG, SG, SF) he guarded better than James. And he spent a good deal of time guarding the best perimeter player (as did Pippen).

As for point 2, I was referring to when Jordan was failing to win titles. The East was a bit less strong when he was winning, but he won every time. So its moot.

As for the supporting cast, we will definitely have to agree to disagree. Harper was at one point an all-star, but by the time he got to the Bulls injuries had taken their toll. Cartwright was at the end of hos career and just a replacement-level starter. The 1994 Bulls overachieved like the post-Rose Bulls did (largely due to an MVP-level year from Pippen), but they weren't elite. The 1995 Bulls were worse.

The 1996-1998 Bulls were Jordan and Pippen and Rodman's rebounds, and everyone else was completely replaceable. Those teams, aside from Jordan and Pippen, were not nearly as good as the Heat without James and Wade.

[gurufrisbee]

We can certainly agree to disagree on who is better defensively. But what you are saying in #1 is just not true. LeBron does not guard the best player or even the second best player. In this series, he guards Barnes, while Dellavedova guards Curry and Shumpert/Smith guards Thompson, and Thompson guards Green. In the Atlanta series he guarded Carroll. In the Chicago series he guarded Noah and played centerfield.

In Miami, LeBron would generally guard the better wing player to hide Wade. But he rarely guarded PGs and he rarely guarded bigs unless they were bad. It has been a few years since LeBron has played great defense or has even been asked to play great defense. And it has never been true that he primarily guards the opposing best player regardless of position.

Jordan didn't guard as many positions, but the pnes he did guard (PG, SG, SF) he guarded better than James. And he spent a good deal of time guarding the best perimeter player (as did Pippen).

As for point 2, I was referring to when Jordan was failing to win titles. The East was a bit less strong when he was winning, but he won every time. So its moot.

As for the supporting cast, we will definitely have to agree to disagree. Harper was at one point an all-star, but by the time he got to the Bulls injuries had taken their toll. Cartwright was at the end of hos career and just a replacement-level starter. The 1994 Bulls overachieved like the post-Rose Bulls did (largely due to an MVP-level year from Pippen), but they weren't elite. The 1995 Bulls were worse.

The 1996-1998 Bulls were Jordan and Pippen and Rodman's rebounds, and everyone else was completely replaceable. Those teams, aside from Jordan and Pippen, were not nearly as good as the Heat without James and Wade.

#1 is completely true. Lebron is one of the top five defensive players in the league and has been every year for quite a while now - and league wide that's not even questioned. And yes, Lebron will guard the best player - but not at exposing his teammates to a bad match up. He's guarded Curry almost every game in the Finals at times. He's guarded Green many times as well. He guards whoever the team needs him to guard when they need it as it's best for the team. He often guarded bigs in Miami because they often were using him as PF.

Jordan never guarded anything better. Pippen ALWAYS took the toughest match up because he was a far superior defender. Jordan got to sluff off on the 2nd or 3rd best option.

And the Bulls were way more loaded than you keep pretending. Harper averaged over 20 ppg the season before he came to the Bulls. He was still better than ANY guard Lebron has ever played with not named Wade or Irving - by far! Cartwright was post prime but he was still better than most of the centers out there - there were only a couple Admirals and Ewings. It's still 100% true that Armstrong and Grant both became all stars once they got a few more shots because Jordan wasn't taking them all. The roster was loaded the entire time and it most of them just waiting to burst out and show their full potential when they had more opportunities (shots).

You really want to compare the second run Bulls with the Heat? First of all Pippen is MUCH better than Wade. Second, Rodman - the Hall of Famer, is better than the Bosh disappearing act. There are some pretty clear reasons that EVERYWHERE Pippen and Rodman went their entire careers the teams became elite title contenders. Kukoc would have been a starter on 90% of the league's teams - and one of the best scorers. Miami's entire bench combined doesn't compare. Ray Allen was an old guy who just shot threes - basically the exact same as Steve Kerr. Longley was a better center than anyone Miami had (Haslem, Birdman, Battier, Pittman, Oden, etc.). Heck, Wennington might have been better than anyone Miami has.

The comparison is really simple. When Jordan left they didn't replace him at all and still were one of the best teams in the league. When James left they replaced him with an all star in Luol Deng - and missed the playoffs completely.

[CDu]

#1 is completely true. Lebron is one of the top five defensive players in the league and has been every year for quite a while now - and league wide that's not even questioned. And yes, Lebron will guard the best player - but not at exposing his teammates to a bad match up. He's guarded Curry almost every game in the Finals at times. He's guarded Green many times as well. He guards whoever the team needs him to guard when they need it as it's best for the team. He often guarded bigs in Miami because they often were using him as PF.

Jordan never guarded anything better. Pippen ALWAYS took the toughest match up because he was a far superior defender. Jordan got to sluff off on the 2nd or 3rd best option.

And the Bulls were way more loaded than you keep pretending. Harper averaged over 20 ppg the season before he came to the Bulls. He was still better than ANY guard Lebron has ever played with not named Wade or Irving - by far! Cartwright was post prime but he was still better than most of the centers out there - there were only a couple Admirals and Ewings. It's still 100% true that Armstrong and Grant both became all stars once they got a few more shots because Jordan wasn't taking them all. The roster was loaded the entire time and it most of them just waiting to burst out and show their full potential when they had more opportunities (shots).

You really want to compare the second run Bulls with the Heat? First of all Pippen is MUCH better than Wade. Second, Rodman - the Hall of Famer, is better than the Bosh disappearing act. There are some pretty clear reasons that EVERYWHERE Pippen and Rodman went their entire careers the teams became elite title contenders. Kukoc would have been a starter on 90% of the league's teams - and one of the best scorers. Miami's entire bench combined doesn't compare. Ray Allen was an old guy who just shot threes - basically the exact same as Steve Kerr. Longley was a better center than anyone Miami had (Haslem, Birdman, Battier, Pittman, Oden, etc.). Heck, Wennington might have been better than anyone Miami has.

The comparison is really simple. When Jordan left they didn't replace him at all and still were one of the best teams in the league. When James left they replaced him with an all star in Luol Deng - and missed the playoffs completely.

Yeah, we are going to have to agree to disagree. There is just too much point of disagreement to make it worth discussing further. But I must note that LeBron guarding Carroll, Barnes, and Noah primarily in the last three series does not exactly support your argument that LeBron only doesn't guard the best player if it means a terrible matchup for someone else. Shumpert could easily guard Barnes, allowing LeBron to guard Thompson. Or they could put Dellavedova on Thompson and let LeBron guard Curry.

Similarly, any of the Cavs' wings could guard Carroll, allowing LeBron to guard Millsap, Korver, or Teague. And Noah was so hobbled and useless on offense that Milwaukee literally didn't guard him. So no, LeBron has not been guarding the best player. And no, it is not because the Cavs are afraid to expose somebody else to a bad matchup. And no, he is not one of the 5 best defenders in the league. Nor has that been true for a few years now. As evidenced by his fall from first team All-Defense to Second-Team last year and off the list all together this year. Like gold gloves in baseball, those lists tend to get to be legacy honors, and you have to drop off a good deal to fall off the list once you are a regular.

And you talk of LeBron as being league-wide acknowledged as elite defensively? He has 5 such first-team honors and a second-team honor. Jordan? He was honored 9 times as a first-team all-defense and even one DPoY award. So I would argue that the league-wide respect for defense argument clearly favors Jordan.

[gurufrisbee]

Yeah, we are going to have to agree to disagree. There is just too much point of disagreement to make it worth discussing further. But I must note that LeBron guarding Carroll, Barnes, and Noah primarily in the last three series does not exactly support your argument that LeBron only doesn't guard the best player if it means a terrible matchup for someone else. Shumpert could easily guard Barnes, allowing LeBron to guard Thompson. Or they could put Dellavedova on Thompson and let LeBron guard Curry.

Similarly, any of the Cavs' wings could guard Carroll, allowing LeBron to guard Millsap, Korver, or Teague. And Noah was so hobbled and useless on offense that Milwaukee literally didn't guard him. So no, LeBron has not been guarding the best player. And no, it is not because the Cavs are afraid to expose somebody else to a bad matchup. And no, he is not one of the 5 best defenders in the league. Nor has that been true for a few years now. As evidenced by his fall from first team All-Defense to Second-Team last year and off the list all together this year. Like gold gloves in baseball, those lists tend to get to be legacy honors, and you have to drop off a good deal to fall off the list once you are a regular.

And you talk of LeBron as being league-wide acknowledged as elite defensively? He has 5 such first-team honors and a second-team honor. Jordan? He was honored 9 times as a first-team all-defense and even one DPoY award. So I would argue that the league-wide respect for defense argument clearly favors Jordan.

Dude, your arguments are getting funnier and funnier. Lebron clearly can and does guard the opposing best player, as long as it works for the rest of the team. Shumpert guarding Barnes would create a mismatch as Barnes is bigger and posts up a lot more than Thompson. In the Bulls series Love had just gotten hurt and the Cavs were playing smaller (Mozgov and Thompson rarely were out together) but Lebron still guarded Butler more than he guarded Noah. In the Atlanta series he did guard all five of their starters for different portions of it. Whoever the Cavs needed him to guard.

Those awards do not always represent anything but media love affairs - and no one ever was loved by the media like Jordan. So they don't mean a lot. But yes, whenever players, coaches, GMs, etc. are polled or asked they do always acknowledge Lebron as one of the very best defenders in the entire league. DPOY is a bit of a crapshoot vote - not at all a "legacy" vote like you want to believe. Jordan literally got zero votes at all for it one year, wins it the next year, and then gets almost zero at all the next year. He really was only a great defender for one season? Not to mention that he almost always got the same or more votes than Pippen - and their coach ALWAYS had Pippen guarding the tougher match up. So while their team clearly knew there was a better defender on the Bulls than Jordan, the voters were so in love with Jordan they didn't want to recognize it. Lebron may not have won it, but he had a run of like six years in a row at being top ten in the voting every year and finished 2nd twice. He may not have won, but he is consistently being voted as a legitimate contender for winning it every year.

[CDu]

Dude, your arguments are getting funnier and funnier. Lebron clearly can and does guard the opposing best player, as long as it works for the rest of the team. Shumpert guarding Barnes would create a mismatch as Barnes is bigger and posts up a lot more than Thompson. In the Bulls series Love had just gotten hurt and the Cavs were playing smaller (Mozgov and Thompson rarely were out together) but Lebron still guarded Butler more than he guarded Noah. In the Atlanta series he did guard all five of their starters for different portions of it. Whoever the Cavs needed him to guard.

Those awards do not always represent anything but media love affairs - and no one ever was loved by the media like Jordan. So they don't mean a lot. But yes, whenever players, coaches, GMs, etc. are polled or asked they do always acknowledge Lebron as one of the very best defenders in the entire league. DPOY is a bit of a crapshoot vote - not at all a "legacy" vote like you want to believe. Jordan literally got zero votes at all for it one year, wins it the next year, and then gets almost zero at all the next year. He really was only a great defender for one season? Not to mention that he almost always got the same or more votes than Pippen - and their coach ALWAYS had Pippen guarding the tougher match up. So while their team clearly knew there was a better defender on the Bulls than Jordan, the voters were so in love with Jordan they didn't want to recognize it. Lebron may not have won it, but he had a run of like six years in a row at being top ten in the voting every year and finished 2nd twice. He may not have won, but he is consistently being voted as a legitimate contender for winning it every year.

Like I said, we are going to have to agree to disagree. I will ignore your jabs though, and leave it at civil disagreement.

[Jeffrey]

The comparison is really simple. When Jordan left they didn't replace him at all and still were one of the best teams in the league. When James left they replaced him with an all star in Luol Deng - and missed the playoffs completely.

I think you can also add what happened to Miami when James departed.

[Jeffrey]

I think the Jordan/Lebron debate is appropriate.

The front page article showing Lebron just passing Pippen, in ranking, is rather entertaining. So is #15 on their list.

[JNort]

Cdu.... I totally have to agree with Guru. It feels like your just being a little biased. All his pints are spot on

[CDu]

Cdu.... I totally have to agree with Guru. It feels like your just being a little biased. All his pints are spot on

I am not arguing that Jordan is better than LeBron. So I definitely disagree with the assertion that bias is affecting my comments (certainly no moreso than they are affecting guru's).

If you watched these playoffs, I think you'd have to be very LeBron (or Cleveland) biased (or simply not paying attention) to say he is playing good defense these days. He regularly takes the least difficult defensive assignment. He shirks his help defense responsibilities. His defensive effort these days consists primarily of playing free safety and trying to poach steals in the passing lanes, and otherwise conserving energy. And that has been true for a few years now.

LeBron is far better offensively right now than Jordan ever was, but Jordan played better defensively. And that's mainly because he gave consistent effort defensively. LeBron was, for a time, a very good defender in practice (not just in theory). And he's still capable of being an elite defender if he wanted to be. But he appears sacrificed his defensive game the last few years in order to conserve energy to maximize his ability to control the offensive game. He's only an elite defender now in concept, not in practice.

That's not meant to disparage LeBron. What he is doing offensively is exhausting. But it's just not appropriate to give him credit for playing elite defense when that simply isn't the case anymore. I'm sure he COULD still play elite defense. But he doesn't, and that appears to be a strategic decision to allow him to maximize his value offensively.

[gurufrisbee]

I am not arguing that Jordan is better than LeBron. So I definitely disagree with the assertion that bias is affecting my comments (certainly no moreso than they are affecting guru's).

If you watched these playoffs, I think you'd have to be very LeBron (or Cleveland) biased (or simply not paying attention) to say he is playing good defense these days. He regularly takes the least difficult defensive assignment. He shirks his help defense responsibilities. His defensive effort these days consists primarily of playing free safety and trying to poach steals in the passing lanes, and otherwise conserving energy. And that has been true for a few years now.

LeBron is far better offensively right now than Jordan ever was, but Jordan played better defensively. And that's mainly because he gave consistent effort defensively. LeBron was, for a time, a very good defender in practice (not just in theory). And he's still capable of being an elite defender if he wanted to be. But he appears sacrificed his defensive game the last few years in order to conserve energy to maximize his ability to control the offensive game. He's only an elite defender now in concept, not in practice.

That's not meant to disparage LeBron. What he is doing offensively is exhausting. But it's just not appropriate to give him credit for playing elite defense when that simply isn't the case anymore. I'm sure he COULD still play elite defense. But he doesn't, and that appears to be a strategic decision to allow him to maximize his value offensively.

He never takes the least difficult defensive assignment. He constantly is guarding different players depending on what is best for his team and not forcing bad mismatches elsewhere. To say otherwise is just flat out untrue.

What is true is that Pippen always guarded the toughest match up and when Harper was there Jordan didn't even guard the second best option. Those guys were very good defensively, so that reality does not mean Jordan couldn't also be good at defense, but to say anything that makes it sound like Jordan was somehow better defensively playing his entire career against the 2nd or 3rd best perimeter option while Lebron was guarding everyone is still a stretch beyond reality.

ANYWAYS, I found this to be kind of an interesting take on this discussion as well:

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/106662/has-lebron-james-underachieved-in-nba-finals

[CDu]

He never takes the least difficult defensive assignment. He constantly is guarding different players depending on what is best for his team and not forcing bad mismatches elsewhere. To say otherwise is just flat out untrue.

What is true is that Pippen always guarded the toughest match up and when Harper was there Jordan didn't even guard the second best option. Those guys were very good defensively, so that reality does not mean Jordan couldn't also be good at defense, but to say anything that makes it sound like Jordan was somehow better defensively playing his entire career against the 2nd or 3rd best perimeter option while Lebron was guarding everyone is still a stretch beyond reality.

ANYWAYS, I found this to be kind of an interesting take on this discussion as well:

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/106662/has-lebron-james-underachieved-in-nba-finals

Totally disagree on your statements here. LeBron systematically took the easiest assignment throughout these playoffs. It was Barnes or Livingston throughout the finals. Either of those guys was EASILY guardable by Shumpert or Smith. And while Pippen certainly spent a lot of time on the best wing, so did Jordan. Not even close to the "always" you implied.

[CDu]

ANYWAYS, I found this to be kind of an interesting take on this discussion as well:

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/106662/has-lebron-james-underachieved-in-nba-finals

Aside from our vast disagreements on the defensive contributions of Jordan and LeBron, I think we do share a similar disdain for the idea that LeBron's 2-4 and Jordan's 6-0 are meaningful data points. I would totally agree with the analysis that the actual comparison is about 1 or 2 championship difference (i.e., LeBron's teams have done about what they should have done in the finals; Jordan's teams did slightly better than what they should have done in the finals). Jordan's teams have fared slightly better (relative to expectations), and LeBron shouldn't be penalized for not being able to beat clearly better teams in 2 of his trips there. By contrast, Jordan's teams were generally favored in the Finals, so his teams should have won 4 or 5 of them, whereas LeBron's teams should have won about 2.

And even then, I don't think that's a critical distinction. I think LeBron is the best player to ever play. Nobody has had the combination of size, skills, and athleticism that he has. He combines the athleticism and power of Dominique Wilkins with the vision and passing ability of Magic Johnson. Totally revolutionary.

I just disagree with you on the assessment of their defense, but I do believe that the differences in offense (where LeBron is so far superior to everyone ever) more than outweigh the differences in defense.

[NSDukeFan]

Cdu.... I totally have to agree with Guru. It feels like your just being a little biased. All his pints are spot on

Guru........I totally have to agree with CDu. It feels like you're being a bit biased. Most of his points are argued quite well.

[Jeffrey]

I watched game 6 again last night with specific emphasis on Lebron's play. I do not recall a single NBA Finals game when Jordan played that poor of D. Clearly, Lebron exerts the vast majority of his efforts, during elimination games, on his O. Lebron probably has the best, playoff elimination game, offensive statistics of any to play the game. But, I'm not sure how any unbiased person would truly believe Lebron played great D in game 6.

Thanks to both posters who have done very good jobs debating both vantage points! It's been a well structured and informative discussion. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said of the front page rankings of NBA greats claiming only 5 NBA greats stand between Lebron and Muggsy. Geez, the Lakers had more than 5 NBA greats who rank between Lebron and Muggsy. Clearly, there's substantial bias in the front page rankings.

[gurufrisbee]

Even I'll agree Lebron's defense wasn't great in game 6. But how gassed must he have been? And as far as comparing it with Jordan in the Finals - I might even agree I never saw Jordan play that tired on defense in a finals game. Of course I would also say I never saw Jordan guard ANYONE in the NBA finals as good as the many, many different Warriors. Sorry but Hersey Hawkins, Byron Scott, Jeff Hornacek, Dan Majerle, Terry Porter, Jerome Kersey, Cedric Ceballos, Byron Russell, Michael Cooper - it's just not comprable. But that is to be somewhat expected considering the teams were weaker back then and Jordan was guarding the 2nd or 3rd best guy. Of course, if Cleveland could have hidden Lebron on weaker guys maybe his offensive game could have been more efficient. He still probably isn't the scorer Jordan is (not sure anyone is), but it might have helped.

[Jeffrey]

You're right, the changing level of competition makes it much more subjective and difficult to measure individual matchups.

Let's be objective, instead, and look at career defensive statistics. How many NBA players had more steals than MJ? How many NBA guards had more blocked shots than MJ?

Jerry West has forgotten more about basketball than the two of us, combined, will ever know! West has repeatedly stated that Jordan's defensive contributions were more impressive than his offensive. West is never going to say that about Lebron!

[gurufrisbee]

I certainly am in no position to suggest I know more than Jerry West, but that comment sounds more like a poetic way to say he thought Jordan was very good defensively than a super accurate evaluation of things. Besides, Jordan might be the best pure scorer to have played, so that's pretty tough to top. Jordan's steal numbers are very good - although everyone on Scottie Pippen's teams had nice steal numbers largely off of getting really bad passes from whoever Pippen was guarding. Yes, it still takes skill to get the steal, but it's not always the best assessment. It's like Karl Malone. His defense was terrific and anyone who watched him and knew basketball knew it was, but often it resulted in him guarding a power forward in the post really well and forcing him hold the ball too long and forcing them to make their move to the inside and many times resulted in Stockton sliding up and picking the ball out or Mark Eaton coming over and swatting a weak shot attempt - which helped Eaton be one of the premier shot blockers for years and Stockton is the all time steals leader, but Malone doesn't get the stats credit for any of that - yet he was widely known to be a very good defender (and he was). And again, I'm not saying Jordan was bad at defense - he definitely was very good. I'm not even saying he was bad because he guarded the 2nd or 3rd best player on the other team because Pippen was remarkable at defense and Harper was very good, too. I do think Lebron was still better. Of course we're comparing two of the five best players who have ever played, so it's going to be likely close on a number of facets.

[Jeffrey]

Of course we're comparing two of the five best players who have ever played.....

No, we're not. Lebron only ranks five players ahead of Muggsy. According to my calculator, that puts Lebron somewhere around #94.

[NSDukeFan]

No, we're not. Lebron only ranks five players ahead of Muggsy. According to my calculator, that puts Lebron somewhere around #94.

According to basketball reference's Elo rating (voted on, so may not be the best measure, but much closer than one opinion from the front page), Muggsy is Rated the 261st best player in NBA history.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boguemu01.html

[gurufrisbee]

http://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2015/6/30/8868049/scottie-pippen-says-he-was-lebron-james-before-lebron-james

In the sense that he is a better defender, a better passer, a better rebounder, and a better WINNER than Jordan - then yes, Pippen is like Lebron.

In the sense that Pippen should be in the discussion as being better than Jordan? Very possibly.

In the reality than Lebron is basically Pippen PLUS Jordan - move aside old timers.