Durham PD pulls gun on Nolan Smith during traffic stop

[fuse]

You can see details on Nolan's twitter feed as well as Sporting News:

http://mobile.sportingnews.com/article/4645547-nolan-smith-durham-police-cops-pulled-over?modid=http%3A%2F%2Ft.co%2FmhpZ6f0LNZ&utm_source=mweb&utm_medium=mweb&utm_campaign=http%3A%2F%2Ft.co%2FmhpZ6f0LNZ

Just shaking my head.

[mattman91]

You can see details on Nolan's twitter feed as well as Sporting News:

http://mobile.sportingnews.com/article/4645547-nolan-smith-durham-police-cops-pulled-over?modid=http%3A%2F%2Ft.co%2FmhpZ6f0LNZ&utm_source=mweb&utm_medium=mweb&utm_campaign=http%3A%2F%2Ft.co%2FmhpZ6f0LNZ

Just shaking my head.

Tinted windows = dangerous?

Glad Nolan didn't get shot.

[subzero02]

It didn't say why he was pulled over initially. He must've been doing 55 in a 54...

[devildeac]

Hopefully he was on a no Fats diet and his (non-rental) vehicle contained no green, leafy herbal substances or weaponry.:rolleyes::o

[Reisen]

After reading Smith's tweets to a department spokesman who would only identify himself as "Anderson," he told SN that there were "a lot of variables at play"...

When asked if the department had a policy on its officers asking for autographs... he declined to comment, saying "I don't know, you'd have to ask our community services officer."

Worst police spokesman ever?

[DevilWearsPrada]

I can't imagine the feeling of rolling down your car windows, and the Police have guns drawn. The K Academy started today, and the campers came in yesterday.

Thank goodness Nolan is ok!

Thanks for posting, also.

[jimsumner]

SMH indeed.

Questions need to be answered. And not by Nolan.

[Des Esseintes]

After reading Smith's tweets to a department spokesman who would only identify himself as "Anderson," he told SN that there were "a lot of variables at play"...

When asked if the department had a policy on its officers asking for autographs... he declined to comment, saying "I don't know, you'd have to ask our community services officer."

Worst police spokesman ever?

Oh, I think I can imagine the one variable that was in play.

[aimo]

They should ask this guy

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/crime/article16209785.html

I actually know him. Will be interesting to hear his response.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

I hate political correctness, so I am not and won't be. I'll say what everyone else is thinking - Nolan was guilty of driving while black. This really stinks, and not just for Nolan. And yes, he's lucky he wasn't shot. Good thing Nyfong (sp?) isn't around now, else he'd be prosecuted for his "crime". Sheesh.

I'm very glad Nolan escaped any harm.

[bob blue devil]

I hate political correctness, so I am not and won't be. I'll say what everyone else is thinking - Nolan was guilty of driving while black. This really stinks, and not just for Nolan. And yes, he's lucky he wasn't shot. Good thing Nyfong (sp?) isn't around now, else he'd be prosecuted for his "crime". Sheesh.

I'm very glad Nolan escaped any harm.

just to play devil's advocate, isn't it likely his 4% tinted likely would have prevented racial identification until after he was already pulled over? to avoid confusion, this wouldn't prevent me from agreeing with the possibility of racial bias here (i'm just going to stay away from that one).

[MCFinARL]

I hate political correctness, so I am not and won't be. I'll say what everyone else is thinking - Nolan was guilty of driving while black. This really stinks, and not just for Nolan. And yes, he's lucky he wasn't shot. Good thing Nyfong (sp?) isn't around now, else he'd be prosecuted for his "crime". Sheesh.

I'm very glad Nolan escaped any harm.

In some ways the scariest part of this is to wonder what would have happened if he hadn't actually been Nolan Smith--a known and respected figure in the community--but an ordinary guy. Would he have been taken in for questioning, or worse? Would any consternation at being stopped have been deemed grounds for the use of those guns?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Just embarrassing. Ugh.

[Dukehky]

I hate political correctness, so I am not and won't be. I'll say what everyone else is thinking - Nolan was guilty of driving while black. This really stinks, and not just for Nolan. And yes, he's lucky he wasn't shot. Good thing Nyfong (sp?) isn't around now, else he'd be prosecuted for his "crime". Sheesh.

I'm very glad Nolan escaped any harm.

Nifong was actually guilty of pandering to his mostly African American constituency by going after the "rich, elitist, white Duke kids." One of the underrated unfortunate things about the Lacrosse case is that it was one of the few times that the police and the DA's office (at least from my experience with the legal system in Durham, I did some volunteer work for the Public Defender's office) gave the black community the benefit of the doubt. Unfortunately the national attention that case garnered, as it proceeded, is that it was not a good time to be on the "side" of the Black Community it Durham.

The type of thing that Nolan experienced from his account of the incident is much more likely and common than is both the initial treatment of Crystal Mangum (positive and helpful) and the lack of truthfulness on her part.

In my opinion, police officer is declining in popularity as a potential profession for those who would make good police officers due to the lack of appreciation as well as the danger associated with said profession. The need for police officers remains high, so I think that this demand with a lack of supply of good candidates has led to those who are more likely, and more willing, even excited, some of those officers are to pull their weapon, and in some of the more notable cases, use their weapon to a lethal effect. That is a gross generalization that I'm just not sure on, but it is an educated guess from what I've seen. It's just an opinion that others may vehemently disagree with, and I'm sure in some cases have a lot of evidence to oppose that opinion, which is one I'm certainly not married to. So please don't blast me on that. Most police officers (the vast, vast majority) are good people who do their jobs with the best intentions at heart and they serve one of the most valuable services to our communities at large.

Glad Nolan is okay, and I hope that if poor decisions were made by the officers in question, that they face consequences aand learn from their actions so that they can better perform their jobs in the future.

[FerryFor50]

just to play devil's advocate, isn't it likely his 4% tinted likely would have prevented racial identification until after he was already pulled over? to avoid confusion, this wouldn't prevent me from agreeing with the possibility of racial bias here (i'm just going to stay away from that one).

What likely got him pulled over is driving a nice car *with* tinted windows in Durham. I'm guessing that assumptions were made, racial or not.

Also, there are a large number of black cops in Durham. We don't know if the cops who pulled him were white or not...

I blame bad police practice and class profiling over racial profiling at first glance.

[PackMan97]

I blame bad police practice and class profiling over racial profiling at first glance.

I blame the voting public for idiotic laws that have put cops in an impossible situation.

[Des Esseintes]

I blame the voting public for idiotic laws that have put cops in an impossible situation.
Can you expand upon the "idiotic laws" and "impossible situation" that require officers to draw their weapons on an unarmed motorist? And why hasn't this impossible situation resulted in guns getting drawn on me or any of the other white people I know during traffic stops?

But sure, you know who's to blame for cops pointing a gun in Nolan Smith's face? All of us except the cops who did it.

[Reisen]

Can you expand upon the "idiotic laws" and "impossible situation" that require officers to draw their weapons on an unarmed motorist? And why hasn't this impossible situation resulted in guns getting drawn on me or any of the other white people I know during traffic stops?

But sure, you know who's to blame for cops pointing a gun in Nolan Smith's face? All of us except the cops who did it.

---> Raises hand as a white male who has had a gun drawn on him during a traffic stop.

Not a fun experience, but I was driving extremely fast, at night, in an expensive car (I was in a hurry to get back for work the next morning). The cops thought I was running drugs, and sent a dog through the car.

[Reisen]

What likely got him pulled over is driving a nice car *with* tinted windows in Durham. I'm guessing that assumptions were made, racial or not.

Also, there are a large number of black cops in Durham. We don't know if the cops who pulled him were white or not...

I blame bad police practice and class profiling over racial profiling at first glance.

This. I'm an auto enthusiast, and a member of a number of European luxury car online communities (Ie. DBR for BMW, Audi, and Porsche). 4% tint is a recipe for getting pulled over every time a cop sees you, whether or not you roll down your windows, and regardless of your skin color. Enthusiast forums are chock full of people with similar stories, albeit most don't involve a weapon being drawn.

That said, if police are going to approach the vehicle with a weapon drawn, I'm in the camp of they should have a good reason to do so. I poked fun at the spokesman because he obviously had no information, and stumbled through the answers when he should have replied that the department takes this seriously, but there are numerous legitimate reasons for why an officer would draw a weapon when approaching a traffic stop, and that they would look into whether any of these reasons applied in this instance.

[Duvall]

This. I'm an auto enthusiast, and a member of a number of European luxury car online communities (Ie. DBR for BMW, Audi, and Porsche). 4% tint is a recipe for getting pulled over every time a cop sees you, whether or not you roll down your windows, and regardless of your skin color. Enthusiast forums are chock full of people with similar stories, albeit most don't involve a weapon being drawn.

Now that is a puzzler.

[slower]

In some ways the scariest part of this is to wonder what would have happened if he hadn't actually been Nolan Smith--a known and respected figure in the community--but an ordinary guy.

Well, for one thing, people probably wouldn't be talking about it here.

[CDu]

Full disclosure: I have a father-in-law, two brother-in-laws, and two cousin-in-laws that are police officers or work in the law enforcement community. So I may be accused of having some bias.

However, I think the general public is being somewhat unfair to police officers as a collective. Yes, there are some instances that have made the news where an officer was CLEARLY out of line. The case where a fantasy cop shot and killed someone and the case where the cop shot the suspect in the back as the suspect was running away are clear examples. But a lot of these examples are much more blurry in terms of right/wrong.

Being a police officer is a thankless job. You generally spend a good amount of your active time going into places you don't want to go and places where the residents (even the innocent ones) don't want you to go. In many cases, you are risking your life doing so. If you go in and successfully and correctly diffuse a situation, you get little-to-no credit from the public. But if you make a mistake and misread a situation, there is a very real chance that it becomes a national headline and you are a pariah. It's just a no-win situation.

Yes, there are some police officers that are bad cops. I would venture to say that it is not a small percentage. But there are many, many good officers as well. And furthermore, I suspect there are many, many good officers who get conditioned to expect the worst having been on the job for a long time. When you see enough similar situations that end badly, it's hard not to expect the next similar situation to be a bad one. And when your life is on the line, sometimes you don't do the politically correct or socially appropriate thing.

Now, I don't know where Smith was pulled over, or what he was doing when pulled over. I don't know what caused the gun to be drawn. We only have Smith's side of the story, which (while I hope is a complete and accurate portrayal of all events) may be leaving out a few details. And most certainly is absent any of the details leading up to said incident from the officer's side (as Smith would have no way of knowing). It's quite possible that the officer was way out of line. It's quite possible that the officer was reacting to events leading up to the stop and mistaking Smith for another individual. Or it is possible that Smith's reactions could have led to the gun being pulled. We just don't have any of that information.

But the bottom line is that it is a very hard, very dangerous, and incredibly thankless job. You can spend 99.9999999% of your time at work being a model officer, but one mistake can result in a public outcry against you.

[Des Esseintes]

Full disclosure: I have a father-in-law, two brother-in-laws, and two cousin-in-laws that are police officers or work in the law enforcement community. So I may be accused of having some bias.

However, I think the general public is being somewhat unfair to police officers as a collective. Yes, there are some instances that have made the news where an officer was CLEARLY out of line. The case where a fantasy cop shot and killed someone and the case where the cop shot the suspect in the back as the suspect was running away are clear examples. But a lot of these examples are much more blurry in terms of right/wrong.

Being a police officer is a thankless job. You generally spend a good amount of your active time going into places you don't want to go and places where the residents (even the innocent ones) don't want you to go. In many cases, you are risking your life doing so. If you go in and successfully and correctly diffuse a situation, you get little-to-no credit from the public. But if you make a mistake and misread a situation, there is a very real chance that it becomes a national headline and you are a pariah. It's just a no-win situation.

Yes, there are some police officers that are bad cops. I would venture to say that it is not a small percentage. But there are many, many good officers as well. And furthermore, I suspect there are many, many good officers who get conditioned to expect the worst having been on the job for a long time. When you see enough similar situations that end badly, it's hard not to expect the next similar situation to be a bad one. And when your life is on the line, sometimes you don't do the politically correct or socially appropriate thing.

Now, I don't know where Smith was pulled over, or what he was doing when pulled over. I don't know what caused the gun to be drawn. We only have Smith's side of the story, which (while I hope is a complete and accurate portrayal of all events) may be leaving out a few details. And most certainly is absent any of the details leading up to said incident from the officer's side (as Smith would have no way of knowing). It's quite possible that the officer was way out of line. It's quite possible that the officer was reacting to events leading up to the stop and mistaking Smith for another individual. Or it is possible that Smith's reactions could have led to the gun being pulled. We just don't have any of that information.

But the bottom line is that it is a very hard, very dangerous, and incredibly thankless job. You can spend 99.9999999% of your time at work being a model officer, but one mistake can result in a public outcry against you.
No doubt. So why is that incidents of cops falling juuuuust a wee bit short of "model officer" behavior tend to occur overwhelmingly in encounters with African-Americans?

[Lid]

4% tint is a recipe for getting pulled over every time a cop sees you, whether or not you roll down your windows, and regardless of your skin color. Enthusiast forums are chock full of people with similar stories, albeit most don't involve a weapon being drawn.

But if weapons aren't drawn, it's by definition not a "similar story." Getting pulled over while driving a nice car with tint is annoying, but not notable; having a gun pointed at you in that situation is.

I had a cop pull me once for something bogus, then ask me for parenting advice when he saw my child in the backseat. That was frustrating enough. I can't imagine having a gun pulled and then being asked for autographs. Grrr.

[CDu]

No doubt. So why is that incidents of cops falling juuuuust a wee bit short of "model officer" behavior tend to occur overwhelmingly in encounters with African-Americans?

I wouldn't make statements about the characteristics of things tending to happen one way or another based on a handful of incidents nationally. A white officer shooting a white person in, say, backwoods Alabama simply isn't going to draw national headlines as a white officer shooting a black person in a big city, for a variety of reasons.

Way too much unknown with regard to the data (where are more violent/dangerous crimes most often being committed, how often are officers being less than model officers and not making headlines, etc) to make meaningful statements about it.

[FerryFor50]

No doubt. So why is that incidents of cops falling juuuuust a wee bit short of "model officer" behavior tend to occur overwhelmingly in encounters with African-Americans?

Confirmation bias.

[swood1000]

Just finished Thinking, Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman. He made an interesting observation:


Why Stereotypes are Seen as "Bad"
In sensitive social contexts, we do not want to draw possibly erroneous conclusions about the individual from the statistics of the group. We consider it morally desirable for base rates to be treated as statistical facts about the group rather than as presumptive facts about individuals. In other words, we reject causal base rates. The social norm against stereotyping, including the opposition to profiling, has been highly beneficial in creating a more civilized and more equal society. It is useful to remember, however, that neglecting valid stereotypes inevitably results in suboptimal judgments. Resistance to stereotyping is a laudable moral position, but the simplistic idea that the resistance is costless is wrong. The costs are worth paying to achieve a better society, but denying that the costs exist, while satisfying to the soul and politically correct, is not scientifically defensible.

[PackMan97]

Can you expand upon the "idiotic laws" and "impossible situation" that require officers to draw their weapons on an unarmed motorist? And why hasn't this impossible situation resulted in guns getting drawn on me or any of the other white people I know during traffic stops?

But sure, you know who's to blame for cops pointing a gun in Nolan Smith's face? All of us except the cops who did it.


We as citizens have created an impossible situation for the police. We have a host of traffic laws (of which most of us are guilty of breaking daily), so it's really "at will" for cops to pull folks over. If they want to pull you, they just need to wait long enough for you to make a mistake. However, in addition to traffic harassment we expect cops to also persecute our War on Drugs and use these traffic stops to identify and arrest armed drug dealers. It is not a good combination.

I'm not saying the cops in this case were right or wrong (because I know nothing). What I am saying is that through the policies we as a people have supported over the past 50 years has created a very poor working environment for cops. They are no longer there to "protect and serve" but to "arrest and detain". This is not the fault of the individual cops. It is our fault for going along with the agenda of the criminal justice system.

/rant on
End the wasteful War on Drugs
/rant off

[Duke3517]

Can you expand upon the "idiotic laws" and "impossible situation" that require officers to draw their weapons on an unarmed motorist? And why hasn't this impossible situation resulted in guns getting drawn on me or any of the other white people I know during traffic stops?

But sure, you know who's to blame for cops pointing a gun in Nolan Smith's face? All of us except the cops who did it.

The police drew their guns because Nolan was either doing something that startled the police for example possibly reaching in his glove compartment for his registration card or he leaned over in his driver seat. Doing a routine traffic stop is incredibly dangerous. When they see movement that startles them cops usually index their weapon or in some cases do draw. Not bad police work at all.

[Reisen]

But if weapons aren't drawn, it's by definition not a "similar story." Getting pulled over while driving a nice car with tint is annoying, but not notable; having a gun pointed at you in that situation is.

I had a cop pull me once for something bogus, then ask me for parenting advice when he saw my child in the backseat. That was frustrating enough. I can't imagine having a gun pulled and then being asked for autographs. Grrr.

Above, it was referenced that Smith may have been stopped for DWB, "Driving While Black". My point was that 4% tint, whether or not he rolled down his windows (or had them rolled down while driving) is an instant reason for a cop to pull you over. It's not just a technicality; the people I know who run tint that low (illegally) get pulled over every couple of months, and view the tickets as an annual cost of driving the car.

So it's not "DWB" any more than someone who gets stopped for no plates or driving at night without headlights is getting stopped for DWB.

Now, the drawn gun is a whole different story... I have no idea on the motivations there.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I somehow suspect this thread won't last very long, but I admire Nolan's maturity in the handling of the situation. Sounds like he did everything very carefully and I certainly don't blame him for drawing attention to the incident. I'm sure it's not an uncommon story.

[Des Esseintes]

I wouldn't make statements about the characteristics of things tending to happen one way or another based on a handful of incidents nationally. A white officer shooting a white person in, say, backwoods Alabama simply isn't going to draw national headlines as a white officer shooting a black person in a big city, for a variety of reasons.

Way too much unknown with regard to the data (where are more violent/dangerous crimes most often being committed, how often are officers being less than model officers and not making headlines, etc) to make meaningful statements about it.
The idea we lack sufficient data to make meaningful statements about this phenomenon is bizarre. Decades upon decades of social science research have provided mountains of data. If we want to go by a terribly simple rubric, a young black man is about 21 times more likely (http://edition.cnn.com/2014/12/02/politics/kristoff-oreilly-police-shooting-numbers-fact-check/) to be shot to death by cops than is a young white man. The problem is far larger, more pervasive, and more complex than that, obviously. But it is a problem, and more accurately it is a race- and class-based problem.

[bedeviled]

Aside from general feelings about policing society, our indignation here says more about our assumptions and stereotypes than it does about the Durham officers'. Unless others have sources other than the links above, we know next to nothing about this incident. Not only do we not know about the officers' particular concerns that night, we don't even know basic details of who, where, and when. Thus, our thoughts and feelings are the result of our own conjectures and biases rather than the facts of this situation.

As an example of a potential reason to draw the gun,
We do not know at what point in the officers' approach that Nolan rolled down his window or if this is what he considers to be "showed them I was harmless." Even if the window was fully down, Nolan could have left his hand fiddling down by the window button. In that case, the officers are warranted in being suspicious as they approach the vehicle - their life is literally in jeopardy with every traffic stop. They could have been yelling, "hands on the wheel!" - Nolan doesn't comment on what they were saying. I (an ordinary guy to everyone but my mom) have had police draw a gun on me once (as a pedestrian! and was taken into custody before questioning), and it was incredibly scary! So, I understand how jolting this situation can be, and I wouldn't be surprised if such a startle led Nolan to be slow in following their directions, escalating tension. At any rate, he does not mention that they asked him to step out of the vehicle or lay down with hands on his head. Thus, the officers DID approach and ask questions....likely before finding out who he is (it's possible that they could have recognized him....probably less likely is the possibility that he yelled back, "It's okay, I'm Nolan Smith!" :) )

Anyway, the example is just to point out that there are reasons why the incident could have happened in whatever way it happened. Yet, we know neither the reasons nor what actually happened. It is probably wisest to refrain from reacting based on our own views until we know more details (we don't really even have one side of the story yet!).


No doubt. So why is that incidents of cops falling juuuuust a wee bit short of "model officer" behavior tend to occur overwhelmingly in encounters with African-Americans?One answer, related to my above points is media coverage. The media knows we eat up their delicious goodies that play upon our personal tastes/fears/desires/outrages. This was a topic of debate at the time of the Brown shooting in Ferguson, Missouri as the resultant media coverage dwarfed the attention given to a similar incident in Utah at the same time.

The idea we lack sufficient data to make meaningful statements about this phenomenon is bizarreAh, another chance for a statistics vs eye test debate! Seriously, though, making definitive statements about singular events by referencing generalized statistics is folly. Referencing the phenomenon as a talking point is one thing, but assuming it is the primary descriptor of a specific new event is different.

The problem is far larger, more pervasive, and more complex than that, obviously. But it is a problem, and more accurately it is a race- and class-based problem.Indeed, it is an issue that has weight and deserves attention. Yet, to best address such issues, it is important to look at events with clear vision by putting aside our personal biases and assumptions. And, important to me, such an approach should help us avoid some of our reactionary rage.

[BigWayne]

This. I'm an auto enthusiast, and a member of a number of European luxury car online communities (Ie. DBR for BMW, Audi, and Porsche). 4% tint is a recipe for getting pulled over every time a cop sees you, whether or not you roll down your windows, and regardless of your skin color. Enthusiast forums are chock full of people with similar stories, albeit most don't involve a weapon being drawn.

That said, if police are going to approach the vehicle with a weapon drawn, I'm in the camp of they should have a good reason to do so. I poked fun at the spokesman because he obviously had no information, and stumbled through the answers when he should have replied that the department takes this seriously, but there are numerous legitimate reasons for why an officer would draw a weapon when approaching a traffic stop, and that they would look into whether any of these reasons applied in this instance.
Online search reports NC law requires tint levels of 35% or higher. 4% is substantially below that and would be a reason you get pulled.
Presumably the guns were drawn because they couldn't see inside the car when approaching from the rear.

[Duvall]

Online search reports NC law requires tint levels of 35% or higher. 4% is substantially below that and would be a reason you get pulled.
Presumably the guns were drawn because they couldn't see inside the car when approaching from the rear.

That would be, of course, a completely insane practice - weapons drawn and ready to fire for a violation that carries a $240 fine?

[Vincetaylor]

Same thing happened to me when I was an undergrad at Duke. I was driving a silver Volvo, with a friend in the passenger seat, and a friend in the back. The Durham PD pulled me over for no reason and instead of coming up to the window they had their guns drawn from a safe distance away. My friends and I put our hands out the window and the cops apologized for a case of mistaken identity. Said my car matched the description of a stolen vehicle. It shook me up temporarily, but I wasn't angry at the cops.

BTW, I'm white...

I feel bad for Nolan, but come on, this is nothing compared to the other stories involving cops and blacks that we see in the media today.

[Duke3517]

That would be, of course, a completely insane practice - weapons drawn and ready to fire for a violation that carries a $240 fine?

Not insane at all. There goal is to go home to their families everyday. They are ready for any possibility. Tint and baggy clothing are enemies to law enforcement. Like I said on a previous post he must of made a movement of some sort to startle police. It also could be possible that their was a bolo out for the make, model, and color for that car.

[lotusland]

Full disclosure: I have a father-in-law, two brother-in-laws, and two cousin-in-laws that are police officers or work in the law enforcement community. So I may be accused of having some bias.

However, I think the general public is being somewhat unfair to police officers as a collective. Yes, there are some instances that have made the news where an officer was CLEARLY out of line. The case where a fantasy cop shot and killed someone and the case where the cop shot the suspect in the back as the suspect was running away are clear examples. But a lot of these examples are much more blurry in terms of right/wrong.

Being a police officer is a thankless job. You generally spend a good amount of your active time going into places you don't want to go and places where the residents (even the innocent ones) don't want you to go. In many cases, you are risking your life doing so. If you go in and successfully and correctly diffuse a situation, you get little-to-no credit from the public. But if you make a mistake and misread a situation, there is a very real chance that it becomes a national headline and you are a pariah. It's just a no-win situation.

Yes, there are some police officers that are bad cops. I would venture to say that it is not a small percentage. But there are many, many good officers as well. And furthermore, I suspect there are many, many good officers who get conditioned to expect the worst having been on the job for a long time. When you see enough similar situations that end badly, it's hard not to expect the next similar situation to be a bad one. And when your life is on the line, sometimes you don't do the politically correct or socially appropriate thing.

Now, I don't know where Smith was pulled over, or what he was doing when pulled over. I don't know what caused the gun to be drawn. We only have Smith's side of the story, which (while I hope is a complete and accurate portrayal of all events) may be leaving out a few details. And most certainly is absent any of the details leading up to said incident from the officer's side (as Smith would have no way of knowing). It's quite possible that the officer was way out of line. It's quite possible that the officer was reacting to events leading up to the stop and mistaking Smith for another individual. Or it is possible that Smith's reactions could have led to the gun being pulled. We just don't have any of that information.

But the bottom line is that it is a very hard, very dangerous, and incredibly thankless job. You can spend 99.9999999% of your time at work being a model officer, but one mistake can result in a public outcry against you.

Or skip one precaution and wake up dead. I thought tinted windows are illegal for that very reason - the police can't see you as they approach your vehicle and, I believe, some cops were shot through tinted glass raing the concern. Assuming they couldn't see Nolan, would it be better use the megaphone from the car to ask him to exit the vehicle and face them? Also, with tinted windows, would they even know his race?

[Duvall]

Not insane at all. There goal is to go home to their families everyday.

And I thought their goal was to protect the public, of which Smith was at least technically part. Common mistake I guess.


They are ready for any possibility. Tint and baggy clothing are enemies to law enforcement. Like I said on a previous post he must of made a movement of some sort to startle police. It also could be possible that their was a bolo out for the make, model, and color for that car.

Baggy clothing?

[CDu]

The idea we lack sufficient data to make meaningful statements about this phenomenon is bizarre. Decades upon decades of social science research have provided mountains of data. If we want to go by a terribly simple rubric, a young black man is about 21 times more likely (http://edition.cnn.com/2014/12/02/politics/kristoff-oreilly-police-shooting-numbers-fact-check/) to be shot to death by cops than is a young white man. The problem is far larger, more pervasive, and more complex than that, obviously. But it is a problem, and more accurately it is a race- and class-based problem.

I find it interesting that the article you cited specifically says we don't don't have nearly sufficient or accurate enough data to find meaningful trends on this. Probably should have cited the Kristof article instead of the one you did. I stand by my statement: there are a lot of factors at play that aren't captured by the data. And the data we do have aren't very good.

[lotusland]

That would be, of course, a completely insane practice - weapons drawn and ready to fire for a violation that carries a $240 fine?

I wasn't there but, if they can't see him, they have no idea if he is pointing a gun at them through the glass. How much of a chance are you willing to take for a $30K/year job?

[Des Esseintes]

I find it interesting that the article you cited specifically says we don't don't have nearly sufficient or accurate enough data to find meaningful trends on this. Probably should have cited the Kristof article instead of the one you did. I stand by my statement: there are a lot of factors at play that aren't captured by the data. And the data we do have aren't very good.

Here's another way of saying that: we have no idea how many American citizens are killed by the police each year. Which, hooray. Not at all a sign that police lack effective oversight or anything. The data we do have supports a 21x greater likelihood of a black youth getting shot than a white youth. Would I like to have more comprehensive data? Of course! Does the data we actually possess point to a persistent racial bias in policing? It does.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

The police drew their guns because Nolan was either doing something that startled the police for example possibly reaching in his glove compartment for his registration card or he leaned over in his driver seat. Doing a routine traffic stop is incredibly dangerous. When they see movement that startles them cops usually index their weapon or in some cases do draw. Not bad police work at all.

I'd love to see what you are reading that explains this. I somehow missed this source.

Also, BTW, each and every time I have ever been pulled over, I have managed to get my license and registration from my glove box without having weapons drawn on me. I must just be fortunate, I suppose.

[Duke3517]

And I thought their goal was to protect the public, of which Smith was at least technically part. Common mistake I guess.



Baggy clothing?

Used to be. With the amount of support the police in general are getting protecting the public is the least of their concerns. Now they don't want to go to jail for any small mistake they make. Look at Baltimore for instance. I don't blame them one bit.

Baggy clothing, just a general in what police are always going to be vigilant towards because of all the possibilities that the subject could be hiding a weapon.

[Duvall]

But the bottom line is that it is a very hard, very dangerous, and incredibly thankless job. You can spend 99.9999999% of your time at work being a model officer, but one mistake can result in a public outcry against you.

Very dangerous and incredibly thankless are pretty extreme stretches, given that there are much more dangerous jobs (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/01/28/charted-the-20-deadliest-jobs-in-america/) that don't receive the kind of veneration, deference and ritualistic gratitude demanding by America's police officers. I mean, nobody holds a parade for roofers.

But anyway, the public outcry kind of comes with the consequences of those mistakes. The captain of the Exxon Valdez made one mistake, and bam, public outcry. Not sure why cops should get off more lightly.

[Duvall]

Used to be. With the amount of support the police in general are getting protecting the public is the least of their concerns.

Then what are we paying them for?

[CDu]

Here's another way of saying that: we have no idea how many American citizens are killed by the police each year. Which, hooray. Not at all a sign that police lack effective oversight or anything. The data we do have supports a 21x greater likelihood of a black youth getting shot than a white youth. Would I like to have more comprehensive data? Of course! Does the data we actually possess point to a persistent racial bias in policing? It does.

And even those data you present are limited, even if they are accurate (and again, the experts say that even those data may suffer from a lack of accuracy). For example, how much more likely is a young black man to be in a gang than a young white man? How much more likely is a young black man to be living in a neighborhood with a high rate of violent/dangerous crime? These things are not going to be captured in those analyses, even if the data are accurate.

Simply taking a count of such deaths, even if it is accurate (and experts say the count is likely not accurate), and dividing it by population is a wildly inappropriate oversimplification ignoring some very important risk factors.

[Duke3517]

I'd love to see what you are reading that explains this. I somehow missed this source.

Also, BTW, each and every time I have ever been pulled over, I have managed to get my license and registration from my glove box without having weapons drawn on me. I must just be fortunate, I suppose.

They are watching to see what you are doing. I did say most are indexing their weapon.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Used to be. With the amount of support the police in general are getting protecting the public is the least of their concerns. Now they don't want to go to jail for any small mistake they make. Look at Baltimore for instance. I don't blame them one bit.

Baggy clothing, just a general in what police are always going to be vigilant towards because of all the possibilities that the subject could be hiding a weapon.

Which is more likely:

There's been an uptick in racially-biased police violence that happens to coincide with a dramatic increase of the number of camera-ready people in the general population

or

The dramatic increase of the number of camera-ready people in the general population is exposing the already existing racially-biased police violence

[lotusland]

Here's another way of saying that: we have no idea how many American citizens are killed by the police each year. Which, hooray. Not at all a sign that police lack effective oversight or anything. The data we do have supports a 21x greater likelihood of a black youth getting shot than a white youth. Would I like to have more comprehensive data? Of course! Does the data we actually possess point to a persistent racial bias in policing? It does.

I don't know if your figures are right but, regardless, there are a lot of socio-economic factors involved for which the police cannot be held responsible. For instance, the unemployment rate for African Americans in Baltimore is 22% and there were 250 unsolved murders in the city over the past 2-years. That is a lot of killers on the street for cops to encounter.

Let's remember that a disproportionate amount of those crimes are commited against African Americans. So transparency is necessary but, to the extent that cops are less effective doing there jobs, it will effect minorties disproportionately.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

They are watching to see what you are doing. I did say most are indexing their weapon.

But, you just said that Nolan was doing exactly what I was doing. Still wondering what the difference might be... Also, still waiting for your reference on how you know what Nolan was doing that made the cops nervous. Haven't seen it in any reliable source.

[lotusland]

Which is more likely:

There's been an uptick in racially-biased police violence that happens to coincide with a dramatic increase of the number of camera-ready people in the general population

or

The dramatic increase of the number of camera-ready people in the general population is exposing the already existing racially-biased police violence

Bias is a factor for sure. We live in a segregated society and there is element of human nature to it. I doubt we have enough data to say for sure that a white guy who has tinted windows, or runs from a cop at a traffic stop, or refuses to turn around and put his hands behind his back when under arrest, is less likely to get shot or roughed up than a minority in the same situation. I would expect some variation but nowhere near 21%.

[CDu]

And I thought their goal was to protect the public, of which Smith was at least technically part. Common mistake I guess?

Wanna know what makes it hard to protect the peace? Being shot dead because you couldn't see that the other party had drawn a gun.

Would it be great if cops never had to draw their weapons? Absolutely. But it is a lot easier to say that while sitting in front of a computer when your life isn't on the line. I for one am glad I am fortunate enough to not have to put my life on the line.

You mention the absurdity of pulling a gun over something that warrants only a nominal fine. The fine is not the point. The law is in place because that degree of tint puts the officers at too much risk, and because enough instances have occurred were officers were hurt/killed because they couldn't see the other party was drawing on them.

It is funny: we don't give military men/women grief if they accidentally kill a civilian in war. And appropriately so - it is a tough job when your life is on the line. Yet police officers are quite often in similarly stressful, similarly dangerous situations (they are absolutely viewed as the enemy in many places), and the public is much more militant in their complaints if a similar thing happens with a police officer.

I am not by any means absolving all officers of all incidents. Some of the events are completely deplorable. But I do find it inappropriate for those of us who have no idea what they go through to be casting stones.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Bias is a factor for sure. We live in a segregated society and there is element of human nature to it. I doubt we have enough data to say for sure that a white guy who has tinted windows, or runs from a cop at a traffic stop, or refuses to turn around and put his hands behind his back when under arrest, is less likely to get shot or roughed up than a minority in the same situation. I would expect some variation but nowhere near 21%.

And even 21% would be nowhere near the twenty-one TIMES cited above. So, would you acknowledge that if the correct data is anywhere near the 21X from above, that it is abhorrent and inexcusable?

[Des Esseintes]

I don't know if your figures are right but, regardless, there are a lot of socio-economic factors involved for which the police cannot be held responsible. For instance, the unemployment rate for African Americans in Baltimore is 22% and there were 250 unsolved murders in the city over the past 2-years. That is a lot of killers on the street for cops to encounter.

Let's remember that a disproportionate amount of those crimes are commited against African Americans. So transparency is necessary but, to the extent that cops are less effective doing there jobs, it will effect minorties disproportionately.

So many socio-economic factors to consider, certainly. Such as in the case of Levar Jones and Officer Sean Groubert (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/25/sean-groubert-fired-arrested_n_5879694.html), who was merely trying to combat a disturbing uptick in Columbia, SC seatbelt violations. As a minority, Levar would have been disproportionately affected had he gotten into an accident without his seatbelt on. Luckily, the brave officer was there to protect everyone.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBUUO_VFYMs

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Wanna know what makes it hard to protect the peace? Being shot dead because you couldn't see that the other party had drawn a gun.

Would it be great if cops never had to draw their weapons? Absolutely. But it is a lot easier to say that while sitting in front of a computer when your life isn't on the line. I for one am glad I am fortunate enough to not have to put my life on the line.

You mention the absurdity of pulling a gun over something that warrants only a nominal fine. The fine is not the point. The law is in place because that degree of tint puts the officers at too much risk, and because enough instances have occurred were officers were hurt/killed because they couldn't see the other party was drawing on them.

It is funny: we don't give military men/women grief if they accidentally kill a civilian in war. And appropriately so - it is a tough job when your life is on the line. Yet officers are quite often in similarly stressful, similarly dangerous situations (they are absolutely viewed as the enemy in many places), and the public is much more militant in their complaints if a similar thing happens to an officer.

I am not by any means absolving all officers of all incidents. Some of the events are completely deplorable. But I do find it inappropriate for those of us who have no idea what they go through to be casting stones.

So... only those who have been a cop have the authority to speak on what is and isn't appropriate behavior? Not sure that makes a lick of sense.

Yes, cops have very hard jobs. Yes, many are good people who love their mamas and have no racial biases. But, there is a also a significant number of cops that act far beyond the realm of appropriateness and it sometimes gets caught on tape.

Sucks all the way around.

I'm bowing out of this thread before I get drawn and quartered. Or, before it gets shut down.

Cheers! Have fun! Go Duke.

[Duvall]

It is funny: we don't give military men/women grief if they accidentally kill a civilian in war. And appropriately so - it is a tough job when your life is on the line. Yet police officers are quite often in similarly stressful, similarly dangerous situations (they are absolutely viewed as the enemy in many places), and the public is much more militant in their complaints if a similar thing happens with a police officer.

I assume you have statistics to support the claim that police work is "similarly dangerous" to being a soldier in a war zone. I suspect that's not accurate. But in any case, the military has an extensive regime for evaluating the legality of the actions of soldiers and sailors, while the police are nominally subject to civilian authority. So the public *has* to be more militant, because they are supposed to be judging those actions.


I am not by any means absolving all officers of all incidents. Some of the events are completely deplorable. But I do find it inappropriate for those of us who have no idea what they go through to be casting stones.

I hope you don't mean that. The public has given police officers an astonishing degree of power, a monopoly on the use of force, in hopes of promoting safety. With that comes the obligation of being judged by the public that granted them that power. Otherwise, what kind of society do we have here?

[Duke3517]

But, you just said that Nolan was doing exactly what I was doing. Still wondering what the difference might be... Also, still waiting for your reference on how you know what Nolan was doing that made the cops nervous. Haven't seen it in any reliable source.

I could've re-worded my post better, I meant to give you possibilities. I have no "definitive proof". Heck, he could of just drawn because he is black with tinted windows though I severely hope not.

Your post about police and race is completely overblown. This is not the 1950's. I know most are out there to be good police officers and serve/protect the community the best that they can. Most officers would not do what the officer did in South Carolina. I think the biggest problem is their is a disconnect between what the public thinks a police officer can do compared to what a police officer can actually do.

[CameronBornAndBred]

But sure, you know who's to blame for cops pointing a gun in Nolan Smith's face? All of us except the cops who did it.
Playing devil's advocate here, but where did you read that the cops pointed the guns at Nolan's face or any other part of his person? Having guns drawn (out of their holster) and pointing them are two different things.
They may have had him sighted, but Nolan nor anyone else has said that's the case. Still doesn't make it less right, but it is potentially less incendiary.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I could of re-worded my post better, I meant to give you possibilities. I have no "definitive proof". Heck, he could of just drawn because he is black with tinted windows though I severely hope not.

Your post about police and race is completely overblown. This is not the 1950's. I know most are out there to be good police officers and serve/protect the community the best that they can. Most officers would not do what the officer did in South Carolina. I think the biggest problem is their is a disconnect between what the public thinks a police officer can do compared to what a police officer can actually do.

Which was overblown? When I said there are both good cops and bad cops?

If the Charleston incident is your bar for what most cops ought not do, I'm extraordinarily thankful that most cops would not do what he did - i.e. shooting a suspect on foot in the back multiple times and then delaying any assistance.

[swood1000]

I never realized that police saw a connection between criminal activity and tinted windows, but I'm just surprised that the Durham police find the connection so strong that they will approach such a car with guns drawn. It looks like from Nolan's report that the guns were out before they saw the race of the person inside.

In India, tinted car glass appears to be illegal.

With the rising crime, tinted glass takes the blame of being conducive to illegal activities. http://motorbash.com/effective-today-tinted-film-on-your-car-window-is-illegal/


In Tijuana they've decided to target cars with tinted windows because they think they are associated with criminals. http://legacy.utsandiego.com/news/mexico/tijuana/20050926-9999-1m26tint.html

I guess I would avoid tinted windows along with anything else that, while legal, can be counted on to bring trouble. Nolan does not give up his constitutional rights just because he wants to drive a gangsta car (if that was his thinking), but possibly the impression his car made was in the desired direction, just a little beyond what he expected.

North Carolina has strict window tinting laws (http://nccriminallaw.sog.unc.edu/window-tinting-requirements/).

[gus]

I find it interesting that the article you cited specifically says we don't don't have nearly sufficient or accurate enough data to find meaningful trends on this. Probably should have cited the Kristof article instead of the one you did. I stand by my statement: there are a lot of factors at play that aren't captured by the data. And the data we do have aren't very good.

You're right -- there isn't enough data, mainly because police often do not report, or under report police violence. The "21x" statistic is problematic, as propublicapa (http://www.propublica.org/article/deadly-force-in-black-and-white) readily admits. The small sample size suggests that "at a 95 percent confidence interval indicates that black teenagers are at between 10 and 40 times greater risk of being killed by a police officer". So 21 times might be way too low. we don't know.

But you are wrong to state that there isn't enough data to identify a trend. The trend is crystal clear and irrefutable. Police kill blacks at a higher rate than whites in this country.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/blacks-are-killed-at-a-higher-rate-in-south-carolina-and-the-u-s/

Why it happens, I have no interest in debating here, but this is fact. This is not conjecture, nor confirmation bias. Fact.

[CDu]

And I thought their goal was to protect the public, of which Smith was at least technically part. Common mistake I guess.



Baggy clothing?


So... only those who have been a cop have the authority to speak on what is and isn't appropriate behavior? Not sure that makes a lick of sense.

Yes, cops have very hard jobs. Yes, many are good people who love their mamas and have no racial biases. But, there is a also a significant number of cops that act far beyond the realm of appropriateness and it sometimes gets caught on tape.

Sucks all the way around.

I'm bowing out of this thread before I get drawn and quartered. Or, before it gets shut down.

Cheers! Have fun! Go Duke.

I didn't say one can't complain about injustice. I am quite commonly on the left side of social debates. Like I said, there have been some truly awful events recently that are not excusable. But I think people are all too quick to fire away at perceived injustices and/or inappropriate behavior with little to no information. And I think that is inappropriate.

I don't know what events led to cops drawing weapons on Smith. Nor do any of you. Yet some are quite willing to bash them, even though it is quite possible that, based on historical precedent, their actions were understandable.

It could very well be that the cops were out of line. I don't know. It could also be that the cops did not feel safe approaching the car because they could not see the driver and/or passenger, and in similar circumstances there has been a threat of injury/death to the officers. If so, drawing their weapons at the ready on approach may well be appropriate. They didn't shoot first and ask questions later. They may have simply been making sure they were safe and prepared until they could get a better handle on the situation. Once they were sure that no threat was present, they holstered their weapons.

It may seem harsh, but I don't know that it is unreasonable to have weapon drawn in that situation. A flustered citizen is better than an injured/dead cop. If all is exactly as Smith said, it was surely inconvenient/scary for him. But maybe next time he won't have tint so dark that the officers feel unsafe approaching.

[CDu]

I assume you have statistics to support the claim that police work is "similarly dangerous" to being a soldier in a war zone. I suspect that's not accurate. But in any case, the military has an extensive regime for evaluating the legality of the actions of soldiers and sailors, while the police are nominally subject to civilian authority. So the public *has* to be more militant, because they are supposed to be judging those actions.



I hope you don't mean that. The public has given police officers an astonishing degree of power, a monopoly on the use of force, in hopes of promoting safety. With that comes the obligation of being judged by the public that granted them that power. Otherwise, what kind of society do we have here?

You feel free to go into an inner-city neighborhood filled with gangs wearing a police uniform and driving a squad car. I bet your tune wouldn't be so sanctimonious.

Are there cases of police abusing power? Absolutely. No disagreement. But I think you have very weak ground in chastising an officer despite so vastly little information in this case.

[Duvall]

You feel free to go into an inner-city neighborhood filled with gangs wearing a police uniform and driving a squad car. I bet your tune wouldn't be so sanctimonious.

Probably not, as I would be worried about being arrested for stealing a squad car.


Are there cases of police abusing power? Absolutely. No disagreement. But I think you have very weak ground in chastising an officer despite so vastly little information in this case.

Do you not agree that brandishing deadly weapons over a minor motor vehicle violation raises questions about these officers' judgment? (Questions that may have answers, but then we haven't *heard* any answers, have we?)

[Des Esseintes]

You feel free to go into an inner-city neighborhood filled with gangs wearing a police uniform and driving a squad car. I bet your tune wouldn't be so sanctimonious.

Are there cases of police abusing power? Absolutely. No disagreement. But I think you have very weak ground in chastising an officer despite so vastly little information in this case.

OR: feel free to grow up grow up black and poor (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/18/opinion/sunday/young-black-and-frisked-by-the-nypd.html) in, say, Harlem where crime has fallen steadily for 25 years at this point and yet face daily harassment (http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20130206/east-harlem/east-harlems-23rd-precinct-leads-manhattan-stop-and-frisks) from oversight-free cops whose entire purpose in life is to find minor offenses to book you on. That wasn't your teenage experience, I'll bet, and it wasn't mine. But hey, people think that Harlem is "filled with gangs," so the residents there don't deserve civil liberties (http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/10/how-a-17-year-old-changed-the-politics-of-stop-and-frisk/263468/), amiright?

(Stop & Frisk was finally discontinued with the mayoral changeover in 2013, but the alteration has been...cosmetic.)

[CDu]

Probably not, as I would be worried about being arrested for stealing a squad car.



Do you not agree that brandishing deadly weapons over a minor motor vehicle violation raises questions about these officers' judgment? (Questions that may have answers, but then we haven't *heard* any answers, have we?)

It can certainly raise questions, for which there may or may not be reasonable answers. Though I might add that one might quibble with your defining it as a minor violation. I suspect this is a case where the penalty doesn't sufficiently match the threat the action poses.

Would you or would you not agree that some of the posts in this thread go well beyond the level of just asking questions about their judgment?

[CDu]

OR: feel free to grow up grow up black and poor (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/18/opinion/sunday/young-black-and-frisked-by-the-nypd.html) in, say, Harlem where crime has fallen steadily for 25 years at this point and yet face daily harassment (http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20130206/east-harlem/east-harlems-23rd-precinct-leads-manhattan-stop-and-frisks) from oversight-free cops whose entire purpose in life is to find minor offenses to book you on. That wasn't your teenage experience, I'll bet, and it wasn't mine. But hey, people think that Harlem is "filled with gangs," so the residents there don't deserve civil liberties (http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/10/how-a-17-year-old-changed-the-politics-of-stop-and-frisk/263468/), amiright?

(Stop & Frisk was finally discontinued with the mayoral changeover in 2013, but the alteration has been...cosmetic.)

Ah, more incomplete information! Yay, now THIS presentation of anecdotal evidence is helpful and will surely further discussion!!!

Do you disagree that violent/dangerous crime still exists? Do you honestly believe that, because Harlem may or may not still be a dangerous place, that there are not extremely dangerous places for the police to go? Do you disagree that police officers are asked to regularly go into places with violent crime?

Nobody is saying that abuse of power is nonexistent. Nobody is saying that we don't have a long history of racial injustice. All I am saying is that I do think folks are too quick to condemn folks for a thankless job based on half-stories and limited information. And I think that this is an example of that.

[gus]

meh. nevermind

[Duvall]

Ah, more incomplete information! Yay, now THIS presentation of anecdotal evidence is helpful and will surely further discussion!!!

Do you disagree that violent/dangerous crime still exists? Do you honestly believe that, because Harlem may or may not still be a dangerous place, that there are not extremely dangerous places for the police to go? Do you disagree that police officers are asked to regularly go into places with violent crime?

Nobody is saying that abuse of power is nonexistent. Nobody is saying that we don't have a long history of racial injustice. All I am saying is that I do think folks are too quick to condemn folks for a thankless job based on half-stories and limited information. And I think that this is an example of that.

So the response to anecdotal evidence is...hypotheticals and a repeated insistence that one of the most thanked jobs in the world is thankless?

I don't say that to make a cheap debating point. One of the concerns I have about American police culture is the sense that it is developing a strangely paranoid strain, based on comments like that, in which members of one of the country's most respected professions (http://www.harrisinteractive.com/NewsRoom/HarrisPolls/tabid/447/mid/1508/articleId/1490/ctl/ReadCustom%20Default/Default.aspx) insist that they have a thankless job. That kind of isolating attitude just isn't healthy.

[CDu]

So the response to anecdotal evidence is...hypotheticals and a repeated insistence that one of the most thanked jobs in the world is thankless?

I don't say that to make a cheap debating point. One of the concerns I have about American police culture is the sense that it is developing a strangely paranoid strain, based on comments like that, in which members of one of the country's most respected professions (http://www.harrisinteractive.com/NewsRoom/HarrisPolls/tabid/447/mid/1508/articleId/1490/ctl/ReadCustom%20Default/Default.aspx) insist that they have a thankless job. That kind of isolating attitude just isn't healthy.

Do you disagree with what I said in the post you quoted? Do you disagree with my statement that some of the posts go beyond simply questioning judgment?

Also, I suspect (though do not have the data so I admit that this is speculation) that (a) those polls may not accurately represent the demographic in which cops are asked to spend most of their time, and (b) aren't likely to capture the animosity they face regularly on the job. These polls are not designed to capture that, and they tend to be subject to selection bias (by no fault of the researcher; just a common problem in social research).

Now, a lot of that animosity/distrust is the result of decades (centuries) of racism-influenced abuse of power. But what we have is a situation where the highest rate of violent/dangerous crime is in areas that are socioeconomically depressed, which also happen to be areas much more predominantly African-American and/or Hispanic. But these communities, despite needing police help more than most, are the most inclined to have a distrist/hate of the police. It is this incongruity of need/respect that makes the job so tough.

It is a complicated problem. And I wholeheartedly agree that there are still instances of maleficence occurring among the police force. And those should not be tolerated. But I think the public may be going overboard in some of these cases in condemnation without sufficient information ir understanding. And I think this thread is an example of it.

[J.Blink]

The idea we lack sufficient data to make meaningful statements about this phenomenon is bizarre. Decades upon decades of social science research have provided mountains of data. If we want to go by a terribly simple rubric, a young black man is about 21 times more likely (http://edition.cnn.com/2014/12/02/politics/kristoff-oreilly-police-shooting-numbers-fact-check/) to be shot to death by cops than is a young white man. The problem is far larger, more pervasive, and more complex than that, obviously. But it is a problem, and more accurately it is a race- and class-based problem.

I do not know the answer to this question, but how much more likely is a young black male to be shot to death by somebody who is not a police officer, in comparison to a young while male? Something's obviously rotten in Denmark, but I'm more hesitant to blame the police as a first impulse.

I also wanted to add that, as a Durham resident, there are indeed a large number of black police officers in the DPD (I googled but was unable to find any statistics) and the chief is Latino. As Duke students love to joke about (along with those from the others parts of the Triangle), Durham is a high crime area. My interactions with the DPD have been as a crime victim several times, several license check stops, and getting pulled over for a traffic violation. I have had no bad experiences (well, other than getting a ticket!). I'm glad I have not had a gun pulled on me... I'm sure that would be terrifying.

[Duvall]

Do you disagree with what I said in the post you quoted? Do you disagree with my statement that some of the posts go beyond simply questioning judgment?


I do disagree with the implication in your post that anecdotal evidence/documented human experience is of little to no value here. Sometimes that's all we have to work with in understanding the world.

[J.Blink]

Do you not agree that brandishing deadly weapons over a minor motor vehicle violation raises questions about these officers' judgment? (Questions that may have answers, but then we haven't *heard* any answers, have we?)

I've actually thought about this one a lot. In my twenties, I might have had a little bit of a lead foot, and might have been pulled over a "few" times.

Police officers see people at their worst. They are called into homes where husbands are beating wives (or vice versa); they are called into homes when people have had their life's possessions stolen and are crying and raging; they are called to investigate murders, rape, and molestation. And yes, they are told to enforce traffic laws.

Police do not know who is driving in the car. With America's gun laws, anybody could be packing. Armed police are the price we pay for an armed populace. Anybody could be having a bad day, be insane, or be smuggling drugs. They don't know. They do know that tinted windows are associated with drug dealing, and at certain levels are illegal.

So, back to my line of thinking as I've gotten pulled over. I like to think about it from the other person's perspective. Police officers don't know that I'm a good guy who just likes to go a little fast. They don't know if I'm going to scream, or threaten, or cry, or pull a gun. I hope they're going to be nice, so I'm going to meet them halfway. I always pulled off the road immediately, turned on the interior car light (if it was dark), rolled down my window, and kept my hands on the steering wheel. When the officer came, I told them I was going to open the glove compartment before I opened it. I never had a single interaction that was negative (other than the fact, of course, that I got caught and was being punished).

Why not do all those things? None of those actions did me any harm, and hopefully they helped make an inherently tense situation a little less tense.

Please don't take this as excusing any genuine police misconduct (and I don't know enough about what happened with Nolan), but no, I do not think it is necessarily unreasonable for an officer to approach an illegally tinted car with a drawn weapon.

[duke96]

At the age of 16, a month after receiving my license, in North Carolina I was lost and trying to figure out where I was, and so I was driving along the highway at a rate below the speed limit with my high beams on accidentally. A police officer saw me driving this way, followed me for a bit (I did not notice), and then put on his flashing lights to pull me over. Never having been pulled over before, I was not sure if I should wait for an exit ramp or pull over onto the shoulder. After I drove on for too long without pulling over to the shoulder (which I should have done), the officer pulled up next to me and ordered me to pull over immediately using his loudspeaker.

When I pulled over, he parked behind me and told me to hold up my hands while he approached the car, shouting at me the whole time. I have no idea if his gun was unholstered when he approached, but it very well may have been. After frisking me, he shouted at me why did you take so long to pull over? How do I know you aren't loading your gun or swallowing your drugs while you are driving along? It was obvious to me that he was so worked up because the whole situation scared him, and even my relatively small transgression escalated the situation into an incident where he was potentially fearful for his life. I can tell you that everybody's heart was pounding like crazy -- mine and his.

I'll never forget that, in part because I came to appreciate (i) how easily you can get yourself in trouble with police if a certain situation presents itself and you don't handle it just right and (ii) the fact that police are, understandably, scared for their own safety - especially if you give them reason to be. I am grateful that when that police officer pulled up next to me he was able to see that I was a scared little kid, and presumably moderated the threat level in his own mind. I suspect the situation could have become much worse if I had my windows tinted 10x the legal amount so that he could not see into the car and was left to wonder who or how many people or what was inside.

No conclusions offered here, other than I can empathize with both sides in a situation like this. But I will say that I would certainly never allow my own kids to tint their windows to that level. Looking cool is not worth unnecessarily inviting trouble.

[CDu]

I do not know the answer to this question, but how much more likely is a young black male to be shot to death by somebody who is not a police officer, in comparison to a young while male? Something's obviously rotten in Denmark, but I'm more hesitant to blame the police as a first impulse.

And this is exactly what I meant when I said we don't have nearly complete info. If for example, a young black male is 20 times more likely to be shot and killed period compared to a young white male then the 21 times more likely to be shot and killed by a cop estimate is in line with expectations (as morbid as that is to say). Now, I certainly don't know what the overall relative risk of shooting death is for a young black male. But that is critical missing information to know before trying to assess if cops are doing their jobs inappropriately based on death statistics.

[CDu]

I do disagree with the implication in your post that anecdotal evidence/documented human experience is of little to no value here. Sometimes that's all we have to work with in understanding the world.

Thanks for not answering my question.

And I choose to give humans the benefit of the doubt rather than assuming the worst based on wildly incomplete information. And in this case, the very anecdotal information about a very specific past experience being used as a generalized condemnation of current events is, in my opinion, inappropriate.

[Duvall]

Thanks for not answering my question.

You're welcome?


And I choose to give humans the benefit of the doubt rather than assuming the worst based on wildly incomplete information.

That seems like a remarkably reckless attitude to take with anyone entrusted with using deadly force. It is not only fair to aggressively interrogate the actions of our police officers, it is necessary.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Thanks for not answering my question.

And I choose to give humans the benefit of the doubt rather than assuming the worst based on wildly incomplete information.

Some of us are giving Nolan the benefit of the doubt. Others are giving the cops the benefit of the doubt.

I choose Nolan due to his actions over his four years at Duke; nothing in that time suggests that he is the sort of citizen to antagonize police officers. Also, police aggression has been quite public as of late.

I certainly could be wrong, but in the absence of other information, I am comfortable with my position.

[duke09hms]

You're right -- there isn't enough data, mainly because police often do not report, or under report police violence. The "21x" statistic is problematic, as propublicapa (http://www.propublica.org/article/deadly-force-in-black-and-white) readily admits. The small sample size suggests that "at a 95 percent confidence interval indicates that black teenagers are at between 10 and 40 times greater risk of being killed by a police officer". So 21 times might be way too low. we don't know.

But you are wrong to state that there isn't enough data to identify a trend. The trend is crystal clear and irrefutable. Police kill blacks at a higher rate than whites in this country.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/blacks-are-killed-at-a-higher-rate-in-south-carolina-and-the-u-s/

Why it happens, I have no interest in debating here, but this is fact. This is not conjecture, nor confirmation bias. Fact.

Yes this is a fact, but it is not a particularly useful one. Without the proper context, it's like saying "UVA has the worst offense in the country because they only average ~50ppg" when really it's top-25 when pace-adjusted.

[CDu]

You're welcome?



That seems like a remarkably reckless attitude to take with anyone entrusted with using deadly force. It is not only fair to aggressively interrogate the actions of our police officers, it is necessary.

Question? Absolutely. As I said above, that is fine and absolutely appropriate. Aggressively? Not so sure I agree with this. But this thread is not evidence of raising questions (aggressive or otherwise). Despite your insistence on not admitting that. There is nothing reckless about my opinions in this thread. They are quite measured. I certainly preach accountability. But I don't preach immediate condemnation and assumption of impropriety. That leap is, in my opinion, much more reckless than giving people the benefit of the doubt until as much information as necessary to reasonably prove otherwise.

[DukeDevilDeb]

just to play devil's advocate, isn't it likely his 4% tinted likely would have prevented racial identification until after he was already pulled over? to avoid confusion, this wouldn't prevent me from agreeing with the possibility of racial bias here (i'm just going to stay away from that one).

This is what I hate about tinted windows (and because they prevent me from seeing through the car in front of me to judge traffic). I guess I understand why "celebrities" have them, but I think they cause more danger than we can imagine. Now, don't get me wrong... I suspect they didn't really stop Nolan to be sure his windows weren't TOO tinted. But I would actually like to see them go away. They would not have stopped Nolan's car, and therefore he wouldn't have been faced with guns (which is so far beyond belief, I'm not even going there!).

Nolan, be safe... and think about getting around without the tinting.

[gus]

Yes this is a fact, but it is not a particularly useful one. Without the proper context, it's like saying "UVA has the worst offense in the country because they only average ~50ppg" when really it's top-25 when pace-adjusted.

It's really nothing like that. At all.

[Duvall]

Question? Absolutely. As I said above, that is fine and absolutely appropriate. Aggressively? Not so sure I agree with this. But this thread is not evidence of raising questions (aggressive or otherwise). Despite your insistence on not admitting that. There is nothing reckless about my opinions in this thread. They are quite measured.

I disagree. I think we'd be hard pressed to find a more reckless opinion in this thread than "[b]ut I do find it inappropriate for those of us who have no idea what they go through to be casting stones" (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?36063-Durham-PD-pulls-gun-on-Nolan-Smith-during-traffic-stop/page2&p=811320#post811320) when in fact there is nothing more appropriate than asking searching questions of the actions of law enforcement. I prefer to think that was just an unfortunate flourish, though.


I certainly preach accountability. But I don't preach immediate condemnation and assumption of impropriety. That leap is, in my opinion, much more reckless than giving people the benefit of the doubt until as much information as necessary to reasonably prove otherwise.

There is no accountability without the public standing up to, well, cast stones. That's the problem. The public has to demand answers, because there otherwise would be no answers at all.

[CDu]

I disagree. I think we'd be hard pressed to find a more reckless opinion in this thread than "[b]ut I do find it inappropriate for those of us who have no idea what they go through to be casting stones" (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?36063-Durham-PD-pulls-gun-on-Nolan-Smith-during-traffic-stop/page2&p=811320#post811320) when in fact there is nothing more appropriate than asking searching questions of the actions of law enforcement. I prefer to think that was just an unfortunate flourish, though.

There is no accountability without the public standing up to, well, cast stones. That's the problem. The public has to demand answers, because there otherwise would be no answers at all.

Again, I strongly disagree with the viewpoint that this thread is mostly just asking questions. Instead, most of this thread is expressing outrage at a perceived injustice allegedly committed by cops. If this thread were merely asking questions, I wouldn't have brought up casting stones. I am merely asking for openmindedness to the possibility that this is more complicated than we realize, yet many in this thread have seemingly decided that the cops were clearly in the wrong - not simply asking questions about whether or not they were in the wrong.

[lotusland]

And even 21% would be nowhere near the twenty-one TIMES cited above. So, would you acknowledge that if the correct data is anywhere near the 21X from above, that it is abhorrent and inexcusable?

I agree totally that it is abhorrent but I'm not sure if it is inexcusable or who should be excused or not excused. Most of us agree about generalities used to when describing socio-economic disadvantages faced by minorities but it's considered bias to point out the obvious fact that those disadvantages cause negative outcomes. Growing up in poverty and surrounded by crime does result in students who come to school less ready to learn and those students do arrive at the job market less qualified for employment in the current economy. Likewise minorities and Whites living in poverty are more likely to be victims of crime and are more likely to commit crimes. If the result of poverty and the alternative were the same there would be no problem. There are no magic minorities who suffer all the known disadvantages to no effect. Solutions require honest dialogue and but we're not doing that (collecively not you and I).

[lotusland]

This is what I hate about tinted windows (and because they prevent me from seeing through the car in front of me to judge traffic). I guess I understand why "celebrities" have them, but I think they cause more danger than we can imagine. Now, don't get me wrong... I suspect they didn't really stop Nolan to be sure his windows weren't TOO tinted. But I would actually like to see them go away. They would not have stopped Nolan's car, and therefore he wouldn't have been faced with guns (which is so far beyond belief, I'm not even going there!).

Nolan, be safe... and think about getting around without the tinting.

And if, in fact, the officers could not see into Nolan's vehicle they did not know his race. That is one thing that has to be known before you can even speculate that race is a factor in what happened to Nolan.

[Des Esseintes]

And this is exactly what I meant when I said we don't have nearly complete info. If for example, a young black male is 20 times more likely to be shot and killed period compared to a young white male then the 21 times more likely to be shot and killed by a cop estimate is in line with expectations (as morbid as that is to say). Now, I certainly don't know what the overall relative risk of shooting death is for a young black male. But that is critical missing information to know before trying to assess if cops are doing their jobs inappropriately based on death statistics.

Except we do have (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States#Homicide) these stats.


According to the US Department of Justice, blacks accounted for 52.5% of homicide offenders from 1980 to 2008, with whites 45.3% and "Other" 2.2%. The offending rate for blacks was almost 8 times higher than whites, and the victim rate 6 times higher. Most homicides were intraracial, with 84% of white victims killed by whites, and 93% of black victims killed by blacks.

So, 8x more likely to commit a homicide; 21x more likely to get shot to death by a cop. A higher homicide rate does not come close to explaining the difference in police lethal violence.

[CDu]

Except we do have (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States#Homicide) these stats.



So, 8x more likely to commit a homicide; 21x more likely to get shot to death by a cop. A higher homicide rate does not come close to explaining the difference in police lethal violence.

Not so fast, my friend. You arecomparing apples and oranges (or at least Granny Smiths to Red Deliciouses). That 8x number is for all people, which includes the very young and very old. I would expect the homicide rates committed by children to be similar and low in all races. I would expect homicides to be a bit more common but still rare and also not wildly disparate in the elderly. So these age groups are likely dragging down the disparity. I would expect the difference in the 15-40 age range to be much higher, as that is the age when most violent crimes occur.

Also, remember sample size issues. I suspect that police homicides are relatively rare. Especially if you narrow it down to homicides committed on 15-19 year olds (which is where the 21x number comes from). Thus, those are subject to a wide confidence interval. It would not surprise me to see that confidence interval span a very large range and include the overall discrepancy in 15-19 year olds (whatever that difference actually is).

[MartyClark]

Except we do have (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States#Homicide) these stats.



So, 8x more likely to commit a homicide; 21x more likely to get shot to death by a cop. A higher homicide rate does not come close to explaining the difference in police lethal violence.

This is an important discussion. I won't weight in on the merits. I find the main page title about Nolan Smith meeting Smith & Wesson a poor attempt at humor.

[duke09hms]

It's really nothing like that. At all.

Suffice it to say looking at statistics without context is meaningless and often only serves to elicit superficial reactions from those that don't know better.

[lotusland]

An other important unknown is whether or not the officers are African American. Without knowing that and whether or not the officers could identify Nolan's race through the tinted glass we can't even confirm if race could even be a viable factor.

[Bluedog]

An other important unknown is whether or not the officers are African American. Without knowing that and whether or not the officers could identify Nolan's race through the tinted glass we can't even confirm if race could even be a viable factor.

African American police officers can still be biased against African Americans, can they not? Don't understand why that would completely get rid of the possibility of racial profiling. (But I agree with your general point that people are jumping to conclusions).

I'm surprised this discussion is being allowed here honestly... Very ppb-like...

[Furniture]

The police drew their guns because Nolan was either doing something that startled the police for example possibly reaching in his glove compartment for his registration card or he leaned over in his driver seat. Doing a routine traffic stop is incredibly dangerous. When they see movement that startles them cops usually index their weapon or in some cases do draw. Not bad police work at all.

Two scenarios.
One is that a white man is stopped and he reaches for his glove compartment. Do the police draw their guns?
Same scenario but the driver is black. Do the police draw their guns?

99% of people probably have their car documents in their glove compartment. I do... I am white. I am not dangerous...apparently.

Wise up people it's the world we live in. Labeling, profiling and racism exist.

[bedeviled]

Except we do have (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States#Homicide) these stats.
So, 8x more likely to commit a homicide; 21x more likely to get shot to death by a cop. A higher homicide rate does not come close to explaining the difference in police lethal violence.I wouldn't rest my conclusion on ProPublica's 21x likelihood stat. It looks like everyone agrees that it is flawed. The New York Daily News (http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/john-lott-dangerous-distortions-cops-shooting-black-men-article-1.2030545) reports that only 1.2% of police forces in the US supplied the data for that stat (and that those police forces are from predominantly urban areas). ProPublica (https://www.propublica.org/article/answering-the-critics-of-our-deadly-force-story) even updated their story to say that the criminology professor who vetted the reporters methodology withdrew his support from the article. According to St. Louis Public Radio (http://news.stlpublicradio.org/post/how-many-police-kill-black-men-without-database-we-cant-know) the professor adamantly disagreed with the calculations:
Klinger doesn’t mince words: "The ProPublica thing needs to be shut down. They cherry picked the three years that had the worst disparity instead of being honest about the whole picture. The ProPublica analysis is absolute garbage because it is based on the FBI’s supplemental homicide reports. I told them, don't do it because the stats are horse[wanker]."
When ProPublica went ahead with the report and then quoted Klinger, the criminologist demanded that the news organization remove his name from the story, but it refused.

Another criminology professor referenced in the St. Louis Public Radio article performed his own calculations with the database that ProPublic used (a few of his older blog posts are here (http://www.copinthehood.com/2014/10/black-teens-are-not-21-times-more.html), here (http://www.copinthehood.com/2014/12/police-killing-whites-and-blacks.html), and here (http://www.copinthehood.com/2014/10/racial-disparity-in-police-involved.html). His calculation was a greater likelihood of 5.5x (He also calculated the stat for men of all ages rather than teens. That likelihood was 4 to 1). Finally, he performed the calculation after separating out men of Hispanic ethnicity from the black/white data. That likelihood was calculated as young black males being 9 times more likely to be shot and killed by police than young white males.

He subsequently found a new source (http://www.copinthehood.com/2015/04/killed-by-police-1.html) (a Killed By Police Facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/KilledByPolice?_fb_noscript=1)) which has data for 50% more incidences than the dataset used for the ProPublica report. His new calculation was that black men (all ages) are 3.5x more likely than white men to be killed by police (Hispanic men were separated out).
That 3-part post goes into further detail and complexities. A couple disturbing things he posits that jumped out at me:
- the homicide rate for black men killed by a police officer in the US is 1.3 (out of 100,000). The total homicide rate for Canada is 1.6
- the odds that a given police officer will shoot and kill someone this year is 1 in 1,000

A political fact-checking website, Politifact.com (http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/aug/21/michael-medved/talk-show-host-police-kill-more-whites-blacks/), looked at data from CDC and Bureau of Justice databases along with a public health study of data from 1988 to 1997. They concluded that the death rate for black males from police confrontations is about 3x higher than that for white males.

Alas, I think I probably trust the FiveThirtyEight (http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/blacks-are-killed-at-a-higher-rate-in-south-carolina-and-the-u-s/) information (which does include the Killed by Police database) posted upthread more than any of these others, but probably just because of name recognition (and basketball).

Ideally, there would be a mandatory, systematic database that correctly catalogues all police incidents....and, apparently, that is being heavily pushed for. Until then, I suppose the next most ideal thing would be to run our own calculations. For anyone interested, this might be the most complete recent database: Google Docs spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aul9Ys3cd80fdHNuRG5VeWpfbnU4eVdIWTU3Q0xwS EE#gid=0) linked from the comments section of one of the above blogs.

ETA: Mother Jones (http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/08/police-shootings-ferguson-race-data) has an article also using CDC and Bureau of Justice stats with the likelihood listed as about 4x greater.

[OneK]

I hate that this happened to Nolan as I have been at the end of an officer's barrel and can attest that it is an utterly helpless and terrifying feeling. I was pulled over with a friend after the local PD received information regarding armed men in a vehicle matching our description. As upset as I was at the time I came to understand the officers response when all the facts were laid bare. The incident was cleared up after we were determined to be unarmed and no threat and I promptly proceeded home and changed out of my pants I crapped in. Not a fun experience. That being said, let us not rush to play the race card or exonerate or convict either party without pertinent information. We know the vehicle was tinted and the officers had no idea who or what was in the vehicle. With the recent well documented uptick in violence against police can you really blame them for erring on the side of caution. Caution to me means having your gun drawn. Was the weapon merely drawn or pointed in the occupants face. I would consider this excessive but the distinction was not made and there IS a difference. So before we pile on the police, or interject race or our own biases (we all love Nolan),step back and realize the impossible task we ask of these men and women day in and day out in a city, Durham, that has notoriously high crime rates. I just think there were many variables at play in this case (time, location, crimes in progress, etc.) that remain unknown and should be taken into consideration before people make the easy play and scream racism.

It seems to me that this topic has spiraled into a debate over race and police, when the subject matter was a unique and individual situation regarding a former player.

[Duke3517]

Two scenarios.
One is that a white man is stopped and he reaches for his glove compartment. Do the police draw their guns?
Same scenario but the driver is black. Do the police draw their guns?

99% of people probably have their car documents in their glove compartment. I do... I am white. I am not dangerous...apparently.

Wise up people it's the world we live in. Labeling, profiling and racism exist.

Look I'm not a race baiter, I said on previous post it is overblown now a days. I'm not saying it does not exist but I really believe you are yelling, screaming, protesting, or rioting against just a minimum.

Look you do realize cops will win this battle in the end. They don't feel as if they are getting support from the upper echelon so they are not putting themselves in harms way to be caught in any criminal matter. This will cause crimes to skyrocket. You are already seeing it in Baltimore City and I don't blame them one bit.

[OneK]

Can you expand upon the "idiotic laws" and "impossible situation" that require officers to draw their weapons on an unarmed motorist? And why hasn't this impossible situation resulted in guns getting drawn on me or any of the other white people I know during traffic stops?

But sure, you know who's to blame for cops pointing a gun in Nolan Smith's face? All of us except the cops who did it.

In my other post I explained a situation where this DID happen to me ( I am white). It seems to me you've added your own narrative "pointing a gun in Nolan Smith's face" when that is not what was reported. I'm not saying that did not occur but to make that leap when the officers could have had their weapons drawn seems reckless. I'm not sure what purpose that serves. If you read my post it basically states we don't really know exactly what happened and shouldn't rush to judgment regarding either party involved. Many departments train officers to have their hands resting on their service weapons when approaching a vehicle. Would you consider this aggressive/unnecessary as well? I'm curious as to what your actions would be if you pulled over a vehicle in which you could not see the occupants or contents and the window suddenly rolled down. I believe this is what the poster was referring to when he mentioned "impossible situations" AKA damned if you do, damned if you don't. The debate on policing practices with minority races is a noble debate but I'm responding to your comments made in this particular incident. Can you at the least acknowledge that your narrative draws some questionable conclusions?

[JMarley50]

As soon as I read this I remembered this tweet from last week. It seems to me he was already aware of the risk he was taking. Why act so shocked when it actually happens? He was pretty much just waiting on it to happen. I'm not saying guns drawn was the correct reaction on the officers' behalf, but there is a reason tint laws are in place. Officers are very vulnerable when approaching a vehicle, especially one they cannot see into.

Nolan Smith ‏@NdotSmitty (https://twitter.com/NdotSmitty) May 22 (https://twitter.com/NdotSmitty/status/601754902067486720)
Road Trip... Hope them boys don't stop me. Windows down the whole ride! #PresidentialTintProblems (https://twitter.com/hashtag/PresidentialTintProblems?src=hash)

[subzero02]

The police drew their guns because Nolan was either doing something that startled the police for example possibly reaching in his glove compartment for his registration card or he leaned over in his driver seat. Doing a routine traffic stop is incredibly dangerous. When they see movement that startles them cops usually index their weapon or in some cases do draw. Not bad police work at all.

You have no way of knowing if the cops drew their guns in reaction to something Nolan did. I look forward to the release of more information regarding this incident... Hopefully Nolan will elaborate at some point.

[Duke3517]

You have no way of knowing if the cops drew their guns in reaction to something Nolan did. I look forward to the release of more information regarding this incident... Hopefully Nolan will elaborate at some point.

If you read further post I clarified and meant to say possibilities. I should of re worded what I wrote.

[neemizzle]

As soon as I read this I remembered this tweet from last week. It seems to me he was already aware of the risk he was taking. Why act so shocked when it actually happens? He was pretty much just waiting on it to happen. I'm not saying guns drawn was the correct reaction on the officers' behalf, but there is a reason tint laws are in place. Officers are very vulnerable when approaching a vehicle, especially one they cannot see into.

Nolan Smith ‏@NdotSmitty (https://twitter.com/NdotSmitty) May 22 (https://twitter.com/NdotSmitty/status/601754902067486720)
Road Trip... Hope them boys don't stop me. Windows down the whole ride! #PresidentialTintProblems (https://twitter.com/hashtag/PresidentialTintProblems?src=hash)

The risk he was taking is actually greater than people put out there. I live in the Durham area, as I'm sure many of you have or do still now. Officers in this area are very strict on the tint. I've even seen my family be pulled over, and the tint is considered legal, and the cop still makes them take the tint off. The ticket prices are pretty hefty too if I remember correctly.

Did they have a reason to pull their guns on him? No. But if the tint was as dark as it could be (and trust me, the tint around here, it surprises me people get away with what they get away with) then that may be a good reason to be pulled over. The problem I think we can agree on is that did he deserve to be pulled over? If it was for the tint being illegal (and if in fact it is) then yes he did. But did he deserve the treatment he got if that's the way it played out? Absolutely NOT. We can agree on that. Most of these situations that have happened in history could have been much different if it were just handled smarter, or a decision was or wasn't made to say something, do something they (the officer or accused) will regret.

If you choose to get tint THAT dark, you take that risk to get pulled over. Plain and simple. That's with anyone. My stepdad for instance pushes the boundary on this, as I've rode with him at night before. Its insane (and unsafe) to have tint that dark. You can't even see out of your windows at night. It's crazy.

I digress though, the officers if they pulled their guns out for a simple matter as tint, then they are most definitely at fault.

[Reisen]

Did they have a reason to pull their guns on him? No. But did he deserve the treatment he got if that's the way it played out? Absolutely NOT. We can agree on that.

I digress though, the officers if they pulled their guns out for a simple matter as tint, then they are most definitely at fault.

This is ignoring a number of legitimate reasons the officers could have had to draw their weapons. The most basic one would be the vehicle matching a report of one used in a recent crime or a stolen vehicle.

I'm sure this has been said multiple times in this thread, but one of the most dangerous things a police officer does is pull over a vehicle. Illegal tint amplifies that danger.

[DukeWarhead]

I don't get what's so shocking about an officer having a weapon drawn during at traffic stop. Yes, I've been stopped before and yes, he approached my car with his weapon out of its holster and I'm as white as it gets. Once I answered his questions he holstered his weapon and carried on with giving me a ticket. Didn't seem terribly aggressive too me. Dude has a dangerous job. Police officers are shot in the line of duty all the time, often involving traffic stops.

[Kfanarmy]

---> Raises hand as a white male who has had a gun drawn on him during a traffic stop.

Not a fun experience, but I was driving extremely fast, at night, in an expensive car (I was in a hurry to get back for work the next morning). The cops thought I was running drugs, and sent a dog through the car.

Did you post on twitter, go to the local Newspaper, write an article?

[DukeWarhead]

Did you post on twitter, go to the local Newspaper, write an article?

Good point. And did you SMH???

[SMH at all the SMH over something that happens to many Americans every day that aren't lucky enough to get off with smile and warning]

[PackMan97]

Funny thing about window tint, it only applies to passenger cars. SUVs and Trucks can run tint as dark as they want on the back and rear windows. Yup. If you want to drive a Escalade and completely black out the back window and the rear passenger windows, it's legal.

NC laws are so stupid. Anyone know what type of car Nolan was driving?

[swood1000]

As soon as I read this I remembered this tweet from last week. It seems to me he was already aware of the risk he was taking. Why act so shocked when it actually happens? He was pretty much just waiting on it to happen. I'm not saying guns drawn was the correct reaction on the officers' behalf, but there is a reason tint laws are in place. Officers are very vulnerable when approaching a vehicle, especially one they cannot see into.

Nolan Smith ‏@NdotSmitty (https://twitter.com/NdotSmitty) May 22 (https://twitter.com/NdotSmitty/status/601754902067486720)
Road Trip... Hope them boys don't stop me. Windows down the whole ride! #PresidentialTintProblems (https://twitter.com/hashtag/PresidentialTintProblems?src=hash)
It looks like the guns were out before they knew who was inside, which would make it a tint issue.
5148

[gwlaw99]

The police drew their guns because Nolan was either doing something that startled the police for example possibly reaching in his glove compartment for his registration card or he leaned over in his driver seat. Doing a routine traffic stop is incredibly dangerous. When they see movement that startles them cops usually index their weapon or in some cases do draw. Not bad police work at all.

According to police is was because he did not stop for several blocks and suns were drawn because they could not see in the car to tell what was happening inside it.

[subzero02]

According to police is was because he did not stop for several blocks and suns were drawn because they could not see in the car to tell what was happening inside it.

Where and when did you read or hear this.

[killerleft]

According to police is was because he did not stop for several blocks and suns were drawn because they could not see in the car to tell what was happening inside it.

If this is true, then I expect that Nolan drove to a spot where he was more comfortable stopping for any of several reasons (understandable), and the cops were drawing their weapons because of this in addition to the tinting issue (also understandable).

I have dark tinting on my 2002 Toyota Solara. The teenager who drove it before me had it put on. The taillights were also tinted. When I bought the car and had it inspected, the guys made me take the tinting off of the taillights, but not the windows. The front windows have tint, but not too dark. I like the tint, but would not be surprised if one day I am stopped and the police make me take the tinting off. I wouldn't appreciated it if there were guns drawn, but it's my fault if they do. I'm pretty sure my tinting is darker than allowed.

[DukieInKansas]

Where and when did you read or hear this.

Here is a link: http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/duke/article22554801.html

I believe someone upstream asked what he drove - it's a Tahoe.

[FerryFor50]

Funny thing about window tint, it only applies to passenger cars. SUVs and Trucks can run tint as dark as they want on the back and rear windows. Yup. If you want to drive a Escalade and completely black out the back window and the rear passenger windows, it's legal.

NC laws are so stupid. Anyone know what type of car Nolan was driving?

Chevy Tahoe.

Looks like an SUV to me...

5149

[sagegrouse]

Here is a link: http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/duke/article22554801.html

I believe someone upstream asked what he drove - it's a Tahoe.

Does that make tinting of rear windows legal in NC? Were the front windows untinted? Most SUV's seem to have tinted rear windows, just like my Trail Blazer, which I bought new and AFAIK didn't ask for.

[CDu]

Does that make tinting of rear windows legal in NC? Were the front windows untinted? Most SUV's seem to have tinted rear windows, just like my Trail Blazer, which I bought new and AFAIK didn't ask for.

I think that having some tinting on the windows is legal. It is the degree of tint that is the issue. Smith's vehicle had an extreme amount of tinting, which was what was illegal, and what made the situation threatening for the police officers (because you can't see into the car).

[Kfanarmy]

That seems like a remarkably reckless attitude to take with anyone entrusted with using deadly force. It is not only fair to aggressively interrogate the actions of our police officers, it is necessary.

No. It is debilitating.

[-jk]

I think this one has left the original discussion behind and gone full policy.

-jk