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CharlestonDave
05-13-2015, 03:36 AM
I always thought that Coach K had a really good advantage in that he could offer a Duke education to potential recruits. With his shift to one and done players this no longer exists. While it is valuable to the likes of Plumlee, Jefferson, Cook, Matt Jones, it really has little or no effect to players like Okafor, Turner, Jones, Rivers, Parker, who will never take advantage of it which is a shame ( although if I was offered millions of dollars at age 19 it would be hard to turn it down ).

I think that it is an excellent recruiting tool for Coach Cutliffe who never or very infrequently loses a player early.

I also think it is very worthwhile for Johnny Dawkins and David Shaw at Stanford to offer a recruit a Stanford education and hopefully Chris Collins does the same at Northwestern. It is extremely rare that Stanford or Northwestern recruit one and done players.

Troublemaker
05-13-2015, 08:15 AM
I think the Duke education and the broader experience of being at Duke is still a major selling point to 1-and-done recruits as well. As Coach K will tell you, Duke basketball doesn't isolate its players in a basketball dorm. They live in regular dorms among their fellow students, and when they can get apartments, they live in apartments that are surrounded by fellow students. Being immersed in the Duke community, Duke players get a chance to meet and be-friend a lot of students who will go on to be very successful in their professions. And that is very valuable networking even for a future NBA player. And if Duke's 1-and-done players return during the summer to do schoolwork and work out, their network continues to grow every summer.

MCFinARL
05-13-2015, 09:02 AM
I think the Duke education and the broader experience of being at Duke is still a major selling point to 1-and-done recruits as well. As Coach K will tell you, Duke basketball doesn't isolate its players in a basketball dorm. They live in regular dorms among their fellow students, and when they can get apartments, they live in apartments that are surrounded by fellow students. Being immersed in the Duke community, Duke players get a chance to meet and be-friend a lot of students who will go on to be very successful in their professions. And that is very valuable networking even for a future NBA player. And if Duke's 1-and-done players return during the summer to do schoolwork and work out, their network continues to grow every summer.

I think this hits the nail on the head. What Duke seems to look for in potentially one-and-done players is people who want to have a real college experience to go with their basketball. And that experience, for all students, is often as much about the people you meet and the experiences you have beyond the classroom as about what happens in class. Also, most of these guys seem to come from families that value education and understand the role a degree can play in life after basketball; as you note, many continue their schoolwork over the summer.

Granted, finishing degrees will be a much longer process for those who leave after one year than it has been for people like Mike Dunleavy or Gerald Henderson who left after three, but the formal education they have received even in that one year is likely broadening and valuable on its own account, and who is to say some of these students may not come back to focus more fully on their degrees once their playing careers begin to wind down? It's my impression that Duke would be very amenable to this for any athlete who left in good standing.

For some one-and-dones, who really only want to play basketball but have to contend with NBA rules, this may not be attractive, of course. But for those kids, the chance to get a degree wouldn't be enticing either.

flyingdutchdevil
05-13-2015, 09:08 AM
I think the Duke education and the broader experience of being at Duke is still a major selling point to 1-and-done recruits as well. As Coach K will tell you, Duke basketball doesn't isolate its players in a basketball dorm. They live in regular dorms among their fellow students, and when they can get apartments, they live in apartments that are surrounded by fellow students. Being immersed in the Duke community, Duke players get a chance to meet and be-friend a lot of students who will go on to be very successful in their professions. And that is very valuable networking even for a future NBA player. And if Duke's 1-and-done players return during the summer to do schoolwork and work out, their network continues to grow every summer.

Whilst you are correct that Duke players are geographically in the same area as their fellow students, I would disagree that they are "immersed in the Duke community". As freshman, they are all in Bassett in these huge dorms in the corner rooms. They go to class, they may take part in a few activities, but they aren't involved like your average student. But you don't see them in the common rooms. You don't see them hanging out on the East campus quads.

As sophomores and above, I would argue that they are even more detached from the Duke community. Yes - they have Duke students who are friends. Yes - they still go to class. But let's not beat around the bush - they have their own inner circle of friends, life, and events that the vast majority of Duke students don't have access to.

At my time at Duke, I used to see Duhon and Deng a lot my freshman year. Redick would appear from time to time but very much keep to himself, and the remainder of the 2003-2007 teams wouldn't appear. It's what makes Nolan Smith so refreshing; Coach K said he never had a player so immersed in the Duke community as Nolan Smith. And that's wonderful to hear.

Duke95
05-13-2015, 09:30 AM
Grant Hill would play hoops in Card with the students as well.
Hardly ever saw Laettner or Hurley though.

I don't know where the players live now, but in my time most lived on Central, I believe, at least after their freshman year.

lotusland
05-13-2015, 12:03 PM
I think a Duke education should still be a great recruiting tool for many but those obvious OAD types may not see the same benefit (and may not need it) but time will tell. One thought I had about Tyus decision to stay another year was that Duke PGs with a degree have a pretty good track record of having a nice carreer in basketball after their playing days are over whether it ends after college, NBA or foreign professional leagues - Dawkins, Amaker, Snyder, Hurley, Capel, Collins, Wojo, JWill, Duhon, Paulus, Scheyer and Thornton. William Avery is the only PG that comes to mind off-hand that who's post basketball career is unknown to me and I assume he didn't graduate. I expect Quinn will also end up coaching or announcing after his playing days end. Kyrie probably won't need a backup plan and his personality will probably allow him a nice career after he retires anyway, if he wants it,but Tyus' pro-career is a little less certain. Purely from a draft standpoint there was no reason to stay but another year toward graduation could have been huge if he isn't able to overcome his size and speed limitations the league.

I'm sure some of the cumalative success is likely due to the fact that Duke players are generally a cut above the average player in terms of their ability to succeed outside of basketball but some of it is also bound to be self-fullfilling in that potential employers expect more from Duke grads due to past success.

CDu
05-13-2015, 12:26 PM
Whilst you are correct that Duke players are geographically in the same area as their fellow students, I would disagree that they are "immersed in the Duke community". As freshman, they are all in Bassett in these huge dorms in the corner rooms. They go to class, they may take part in a few activities, but they aren't involved like your average student. But you don't see them in the common rooms. You don't see them hanging out on the East campus quads.

As sophomores and above, I would argue that they are even more detached from the Duke community. Yes - they have Duke students who are friends. Yes - they still go to class. But let's not beat around the bush - they have their own inner circle of friends, life, and events that the vast majority of Duke students don't have access to.

At my time at Duke, I used to see Duhon and Deng a lot my freshman year. Redick would appear from time to time but very much keep to himself, and the remainder of the 2003-2007 teams wouldn't appear. It's what makes Nolan Smith so refreshing; Coach K said he never had a player so immersed in the Duke community as Nolan Smith. And that's wonderful to hear.

Yeah, I'll second this. As freshmen, they technically live in a dorm that includes other "normal" freshmen. And they certainly have the opportunity to hang out with the rest of their class. But in practice, that doesn't really happen. They tend to hang out with each other and with the older members of the team. Since so much of their time is spent in practice, in team meetings, going to class, working in study sessions with their tutors, and travelling for games, they really don't spend much time with the rest of the freshman class.

And as sophomores, they either live in a section of the Central campus apartments which are comprised almost entirely of other athletes, or they live in off-campus apartments (which include a very small swath of the student population as well as many non-students). And they generally hang out with each other, not with the general student population.

There are exceptions to the rule. Horvath was often seen around campus hanging out. Battier wasn't a hermit, especially during the summers. But in general, the revenue-sport athletes tend to stick together and don't tend to hang out with the rest of the student body.

Jarhead
05-13-2015, 01:30 PM
Yeah, I'll second this. As freshmen, they technically live in a dorm that includes other "normal" freshmen. And they certainly have the opportunity to hang out with the rest of their class. But in practice, that doesn't really happen. They tend to hang out with each other and with the older members of the team. Since so much of their time is spent in practice, in team meetings, going to class, working in study sessions with their tutors, and travelling for games, they really don't spend much time with the rest of the freshman class.

And as sophomores, they either live in a section of the Central campus apartments which are comprised almost entirely of other athletes, or they live in off-campus apartments (which include a very small swath of the student population as well as many non-students). And they generally hang out with each other, not with the general student population.

There are exceptions to the rule. Horvath was often seen around campus hanging out. Battier wasn't a hermit, especially during the summers. But in general, the revenue-sport athletes tend to stick together and don't tend to hang out with the rest of the student body. Couldn't the same thing be said about fraternity members.

flyingdutchdevil
05-13-2015, 02:05 PM
Couldn't the same thing be said about fraternity members.

Not at Duke, where 25% of the male student body is part of fraternities. Furthermore, fraternities aren't that much of a time commitment outside of pledging. And fraternity members certainly aren't celebrities on campus. And I'd argue that fraternity members have a ton more in common with the rest of the Duke student body than basketball players.

Duke basketball players are unique to the Duke student body. This is nothing new nor is it surprising.

sagegrouse
05-13-2015, 02:07 PM
There are exceptions to the rule. Horvath was often seen around campus hanging out. Battier wasn't a hermit, especially during the summers. But in general, the revenue-sport athletes tend to stick together and don't tend to hang out with the rest of the student body.

Wasn't Horvath a double-major in physics and English? Where exactly would he have found athletes to hang out with?

Native
05-13-2015, 05:49 PM
And as sophomores, they either live in a section of the Central campus apartments which are comprised almost entirely of other athletes, or they live in off-campus apartments (which include a very small swath of the student population as well as many non-students)

Actually, most sophomore players lived on West Campus in the new Keohane dorms during the time I've been at Duke. Your point still stands, but they aren't as isolated geographically from other students as you might think. Also, since the implementation of the new housing model, Central Campus is far more dense with many, many fraternity and sorority sections being located there. As far as I'm aware, sophomore players still live on campus and only move off-campus as juniors and seniors.

Dr. Rosenrosen
05-13-2015, 06:49 PM
Grant Hill would play hoops in Card with the students as well.
Hardly ever saw Laettner or Hurley though.

I don't know where the players live now, but in my time most lived on Central, I believe, at least after their freshman year.
I payed against Hurley in Card when I was a soph. Got my arse handed to me.

wolfpack
05-13-2015, 08:18 PM
I think education is still a major recruiting point for Duke even to the 1 and done type players. Henderson just came back and finished his degree so you can still pitch that to the players. Go pro after 1 year but you can come back and get a world class education after.

kmspeaks
05-14-2015, 06:20 PM
Yeah, I'll second this. As freshmen, they technically live in a dorm that includes other "normal" freshmen. And they certainly have the opportunity to hang out with the rest of their class. But in practice, that doesn't really happen. They tend to hang out with each other and with the older members of the team. Since so much of their time is spent in practice, in team meetings, going to class, working in study sessions with their tutors, and travelling for games, they really don't spend much time with the rest of the freshman class.

And as sophomores, they either live in a section of the Central campus apartments which are comprised almost entirely of other athletes, or they live in off-campus apartments (which include a very small swath of the student population as well as many non-students). And they generally hang out with each other, not with the general student population.

There are exceptions to the rule. Horvath was often seen around campus hanging out. Battier wasn't a hermit, especially during the summers. But in general, the revenue-sport athletes tend to stick together and don't tend to hang out with the rest of the student body.

I don't think this is unique to Duke Basketball or to big time DI sports. I played DII softball at 2 tiny schools and the overwhelming majority of my time was spent with my teammates or other athletes. Right, wrong, or indifferent, people with similar interests tend to find each other and collegiate athletes at any level have a lot in common. As to whether or not a Duke education is still a selling point, didn't K say earlier this year that part of what drew this freshmen class to Duke was that they would be surrounded by excellence off the court as well as on it? In class, in the dorms, everywhere on campus there are people who are great at something and being in an environment with high achievers was something the guys gravitated to.

Im4howdy
05-14-2015, 07:36 PM
There's still a central campus????

I thought they tore it down 10 years ago (guess I need to get back to Duke...)

Duvall
05-14-2015, 07:39 PM
I mean, being able to attend Duke and get an education while remaining isolated from the student body is probably also a selling point.

duke79
05-15-2015, 12:53 PM
I always thought that Coach K had a really good advantage in that he could offer a Duke education to potential recruits. With his shift to one and done players this no longer exists. While it is valuable to the likes of Plumlee, Jefferson, Cook, Matt Jones, it really has little or no effect to players like Okafor, Turner, Jones, Rivers, Parker, who will never take advantage of it which is a shame ( although if I was offered millions of dollars at age 19 it would be hard to turn it down ).

I think that it is an excellent recruiting tool for Coach Cutliffe who never or very infrequently loses a player early.

I also think it is very worthwhile for Johnny Dawkins and David Shaw at Stanford to offer a recruit a Stanford education and hopefully Chris Collins does the same at Northwestern. It is extremely rare that Stanford or Northwestern recruit one and done players.
I believe we have had similar discussions on this Board before, but I think you're right about the advantage that Coach K has in recruiting basketball players to Duke. However, IMO, the advantage goes beyond just being able to offer them a "Duke education." Certainly, Duke can offer kids (and their parents) great academics but it can also offer a beautiful campus, great weather, a national and international reputation (thanks at least, in part, to the basketball success over the past three decades - or longer), a storied building in which to play games, arguably the best basketball league in the country, unwavering support of students, extensive media coverage, etc. No doubt all of these factors are a huge advantage for Coach K, when recruiting certain kids to Duke. I'm sure that there are certain kids that cannot be recruited to Duke, for academic or other reasons (although I bet Coach K get huge leeway from the admissions office on who they will accept for him).

There is no question Duke has been extremely lucky to have had Coach K as their basketball coach over the past 35 years or so, but I also think Coach K was very lucky to have come to Duke back in the early 80's. I often wonder if, back in the early 80's, he had gone to coach at another school (a St. John's, or Seton Hall, or Iowa State, etc) whether he would have had the same success he has had at Duke. I'm guessing no.

Edouble
05-15-2015, 01:48 PM
Whilst you are correct that Duke players are geographically in the same area as their fellow students, I would disagree that they are "immersed in the Duke community". As freshman, they are all in Bassett in these huge dorms in the corner rooms. They go to class, they may take part in a few activities, but they aren't involved like your average student. But you don't see them in the common rooms. You don't see them hanging out on the East campus quads.

As sophomores and above, I would argue that they are even more detached from the Duke community. Yes - they have Duke students who are friends. Yes - they still go to class. But let's not beat around the bush - they have their own inner circle of friends, life, and events that the vast majority of Duke students don't have access to.

At my time at Duke, I used to see Duhon and Deng a lot my freshman year. Redick would appear from time to time but very much keep to himself, and the remainder of the 2003-2007 teams wouldn't appear. It's what makes Nolan Smith so refreshing; Coach K said he never had a player so immersed in the Duke community as Nolan Smith. And that's wonderful to hear.

Maybe it depends on the class. Nate James and Mike Chappell were always in the Bassett commons room. I think it was Mike that played a lot of ping pong. I watched a few basketball games on the commons room TV with those guys and other Bassett peeps.

Taymon Domzalski used to play drinking games, substituting lemonade for beer.

I played basketball with Ricky Price in Card.

CDu
05-15-2015, 06:28 PM
I don't think this is unique to Duke Basketball or to big time DI sports. I played DII softball at 2 tiny schools and the overwhelming majority of my time was spent with my teammates or other athletes. Right, wrong, or indifferent, people with similar interests tend to find each other and collegiate athletes at any level have a lot in common. As to whether or not a Duke education is still a selling point, didn't K say earlier this year that part of what drew this freshmen class to Duke was that they would be surrounded by excellence off the court as well as on it? In class, in the dorms, everywhere on campus there are people who are great at something and being in an environment with high achievers was something the guys gravitated to.

Oh I completely agree with you and wasn't trying to say it is a bad thing. Just that the selling point of immersing oneself into the Duke community probably isn't much of a factor, that's all.

brevity
05-15-2015, 07:33 PM
I mean, being able to attend Duke and get an education while remaining isolated from the student body is probably also a selling point.

Who hurt you? I mean, besides the Atlanta Braves?

juise
05-17-2015, 10:26 AM
There's still a central campus????

I thought they tore it down 10 years ago (guess I need to get back to Duke...)

I also haven't been on campus in several years, but I think that you're referencing the (infamous) Trent Hall dorm. Trent was closed as housing, but the plethora of Central Campus appartments remain. It was my class that "got the shaft" (http://www.dukechronicle.com/articles/2003/01/31/residents-mourn-celebrate-word-trent-closing#.VVii4H5HaK0) during the housing transition when WEL was brought online.