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Philsfan
04-29-2015, 04:06 PM
Former Duke guard Rasheed Sulaimon denied that he had committed a sexual assault and said that his dismissal from the Blue Devils in January was for a separate matter...

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/12787744/rasheed-sulaimon-denies-assault-says-dismissal-was-separate-matter

dukelifer
04-29-2015, 04:14 PM
Former Duke guard Rasheed Sulaimon denied that he had committed a sexual assault and said that his dismissal from the Blue Devils in January was for a separate matter...

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/12787744/rasheed-sulaimon-denies-assault-says-dismissal-was-separate-matter
Very interesting for sure. Sounds like he is growing up.

theschwartz
04-29-2015, 04:23 PM
Former Duke guard Rasheed Sulaimon denied that he had committed a sexual assault and said that his dismissal from the Blue Devils in January was for a separate matter...

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/12787744/rasheed-sulaimon-denies-assault-says-dismissal-was-separate-matter

Great article. Happy to see him opening up about the allegations and his feelings being dismissed from the team, and that he's been able to move on mentally & emotionally. Having been let go unexpectedly from jobs that I loved, I can totally relate to the feeling of shock that he must have had walking of Coach K's office after hearing that release being read. At the time, it feels like your world is collapsing around you, but a little time gives you perspective and you realize that it is not in fact the end of the world.

Really hope he finishes his degree requirements this summer and finds success with another program next year. Looks like he has some good options in front of him. I saw Arizona St was one of the schools on the list. Would be interesting to see him end up on Hurley's team. Playing for Texas and Shaka Smart would be a great fit too. Surprised Iowa St wasn't one of the schools mentioned.

subzero02
04-29-2015, 04:43 PM
That article is a must read. It really sounds like he had issues buying into his role and the team concpet when he was relegated to being a bench player each of the last 2 seasons. I'd like to hear what K has to say about the situation but I don't expect that will happen until long after Sulaimon has left college ball behind. I can't imagine what it was like for him to watch the Wisconsin game.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
04-29-2015, 04:47 PM
Very, very interesting article.

Billy Dat
04-29-2015, 04:49 PM
That article is a must read. It really sounds like he had issues buying into his role and the team concpet when he was relegated to being a bench player each of the last 2 seasons. I'd like to hear what K has to say about the situation but I don't expect that will happen until long after Sulaimon has left college ball behind. I can't imagine what it was like for him to watch the Wisconsin game.

It IS a must read. Obviously, he is in the middle of serious character "re-branding" but it also rings sincere. He always seemed to wear his heart on his sleeve.

Interesting that he still lives with Amile and Sean Kelly - he's probably still friends with everyone on the squad - WHAT A CRAZY SEASON.

SoCalDukeFan
04-29-2015, 04:49 PM
he understands why he was dismissed from the team.

SoCa;l

David
04-29-2015, 04:57 PM
Agree with posters above that this article is a must-read.

Lots of interesting stuff in the article. E.g., Sheed lives in a off-campus apartment with Amile and Sean Kelly. How strange the last three months must have been for the three of them???

One question regarding this section of the article:


Sulaimon has not seen Krzyzewski since their brief meeting on Jan. 30 in which Duke's head coach read the identical statement that went out to the media.

"Rasheed has been unable to consistently live up to the standards required to be a member of our program," Krzyzewski said in the statement. "It is a privilege to represent Duke University and with that privilege comes the responsibility to conduct oneself in a certain manner. After Rasheed repeatedly struggled to meet the necessary obligations, it became apparent that it was time to dismiss him from the program."

Sulaimon said he was stunned when Krzyzewski read the release, and was in a state of shock as he exited the office.

Why did Coach K read the release to Sheed to let him know he had been dismissed from the team rather than having a discussion? Legal reasons?

RepoMan
04-29-2015, 04:59 PM
I have no doubt that Coach K did the right thing, and I have no doubt that Rasheed earned the punishment. But, you have to feel for the kid when you read about his tearful call to his father post-Championship. You learn a lot of lessons at that age -- too bad this one had such a sting. I hope he catches on with a solid program and has a great final season of college hoops.

BD80
04-29-2015, 05:00 PM
Agree with posters above that this article is a must-read.

Lots of interesting stuff in the article. E.g., Sheed lives in a off-campus apartment with Amile and Sean Kelly. How strange the last three months must have been for the three of them???

One question regarding this section of the article:



Why did Coach K read the release to Sheed to let him know he had been dismissed from the team rather than having a discussion? Legal reasons?

Yes

I would bet that Coach K and others on the staff had many discussions with Sheed about his attitude before the last meeting.

Ichabod Drain
04-29-2015, 05:01 PM
Agree with posters above that this article is a must-read.

Lots of interesting stuff in the article. E.g., Sheed lives in a off-campus apartment with Amile and Sean Kelly. How strange the last three months must have been for the three of them???

One question regarding this section of the article:



Why did Coach K read the release to Sheed to let him know he had been dismissed from the team rather than having a discussion? Legal reasons?

I would think he discussed it with Sheed and then read it to him just so he would know exactly what was going to be said. I would think it very odd if he just brought Sheed in, read a paragraph from a paper, then showed him the door.

Edouble
04-29-2015, 05:19 PM
I would think he discussed it with Sheed and then read it to him just so he would know exactly what was going to be said. I would think it very odd if he just brought Sheed in, read a paragraph from a paper, then showed him the door.

As Rasheed himself said, he was stunned and left in shock.

It is highly, highly possible that other things were said at the meeting that he does not remember, if indeed, he was in a (clinically defined) state of shock. The emotional trauma of being kicked off of the team is certainly a reasonable trigger to go into enough shock to affect one's memory. It's possible that Coach K reading the release, sealed the deal, so to speak, in Rasheed's memory, and this was the big take away for his brain.

moonpie23
04-29-2015, 05:43 PM
great article.......hard not to feel for sheed....




hope this is a good life lesson for him moving forward.....

scottdude8
04-29-2015, 05:52 PM
Agree with all the sentiments above: this was a well written, researched, and sourced article. While we in all likelihood will never know all the details about what occurred, it is good to finally hear Sheed's side of the story. I also hope that someday, somehow, we can also hear the accusers' side of the story directly from them, because after reading the article, while I feel more confident that Duke handled the situation correctly, I still don't know exactly what to think of Sheed and the allegations themselves.

Regardless, unless there's some sort of additional "bombshell" that comes out, I think this article may finally put this somewhat disturbing side-plot in an amazing season to rest. We are, after all, national champions!

PADukeMom
04-29-2015, 06:09 PM
The Mom part of me just wants to give him a hug. He was the first person I thought about after the championship. I will remain a Rasheed Sulaimon fan no matter where he plays next year. If it is Maryland I will have to grit my teeth & smile through it.

Best of luck Sheed.

KenTankerous
04-29-2015, 06:13 PM
Regardless, unless there's some sort of additional "bombshell" that comes out, I think this article may finally put this somewhat disturbing side-plot in an amazing season to rest. We are, after all, national champions!

Unless he comes back.

Coach K has never dismissed anyone before, right? So there really is no precedent that says he can't let him back in. Sheed sounds like he has learned the lessons he needed and grown in ways that he wasn't capable of on the team. So why not?

Tom B.
04-29-2015, 06:19 PM
Unless he comes back.

Coach K has never dismissed anyone before, right? So there really is no precedent that says he can't let him back in. Sheed sounds like he has learned the lessons he needed and grown in ways that he wasn't capable of on the team. So why not?


I think K's on record as saying that Rasheed is not coming back. I suppose K could change his mind, but I'd rate that as highly unlikely. While Rasheed does sound like he's maturing, it's all probably still too recent, and the emotions on both sides still too fresh and raw, for him to come back. If there's going to be a reconciliation between Rasheed and K, I think it will take more time. As far as I can tell, K is going ahead with recruiting and planning for next year under the assumption that Rasheed won't be on the team.

Edouble
04-29-2015, 06:22 PM
Unless he comes back.

Coach K has never dismissed anyone before, right? So there really is no precedent that says he can't let him back in. Sheed sounds like he has learned the lessons he needed and grown in ways that he wasn't capable of on the team. So why not?

Brandon Ingram.

wsb3
04-29-2015, 06:24 PM
The Mom part of me just wants to give him a hug. He was the first person I thought about after the championship. I will remain a Rasheed Sulaimon fan no matter where he plays next year. If it is Maryland I will have to grit my teeth & smile through it.

Best of luck Sheed.

He was one of the first people to come to my mind as well on April 6.

He could be whining right now about unfair treatment & he is being accountable.

I agree with you. I wish him well & if it is Maryland so be it. That is not even an issue for me. They are not nor were they ever our rival. Two of my absolute favorite Non Duke ACC players are Len Bias and Juan Dixon.

alteran
04-29-2015, 06:31 PM
Brandon Ingram.

I feel pretty sure that is in no way a factor.

bob blue devil
04-29-2015, 06:54 PM
i wish rasheed well in his future, which includes improving on himself. regardless how one characterizes the hearsay surrounding him, he is also the only player coach k has kicked off the team. forgive me if i read the article with a cynical eye - rasheed has an agenda and seems to have been well prepared for the interview.

Furniture
04-29-2015, 07:00 PM
He had the right to tell his side of the story. This is exactly the right time to say it. Well played Sheed!

Edouble
04-29-2015, 07:05 PM
I feel pretty sure that is in no way a factor.

He watched as freshman Justise Winslow earned the starting spot on the wing prior to the start of this past season, and he came off the bench every game before being dismissed the day after a loss at Notre Dame.

"My frustration only grew," Sulaimon said.

It certainly is. Unfortunately, Rasheed has made it a factor, by his past behavior.

1999ballboy
04-29-2015, 07:53 PM
I feel pretty sure that is in no way a factor.

I'm not so sure. The timing of these comments is interesting. Not only is it the first time he's commented on his dismissal, but it's the first time he's confirmed that he believes he should be a grad transfer. Even if, on Coach K's end, there was no way Sheed was coming back, I wouldn't be surprised there was a part of Sheed that was holding out hope.

The present tense of "I believe I should have been starting" was interesting as well. No way he should have started over Justise- I don't think many anticipated what a phenomenal talent he was. But with the right attitude, Rasheed could have played the Matt Jones role late in the season when Justise was moved to the 4 in favor of Amile. He's a more talented athlete, has a better shooting stroke, and is capable of being an equally good defender as Jones. Attitude was clearly the x-factor there.

weezie
04-29-2015, 08:19 PM
I have no doubt that Coach K did the right thing, and I have no doubt that Rasheed earned the punishment. But, you have to feel for the kid when you read about his tearful call to his father post-Championship. You learn a lot of lessons at that age -- too bad this one had such a sting. I hope he catches on with a solid program and has a great final season of college hoops.

Absolutely agree. I can barely imagine how painful that call was for Sheed and for his dad. Yes, there are plenty of lessons that all young people learn at that age. I'm looking forward with high hopes for all involved.

FerryFor50
04-29-2015, 08:23 PM
I'm not so sure. The timing of these comments is interesting. Not only is it the first time he's commented on his dismissal, but it's the first time he's confirmed that he believes he should be a grad transfer. Even if, on Coach K's end, there was no way Sheed was coming back, I wouldn't be surprised there was a part of Sheed that was holding out hope.

The present tense of "I believe I should have been starting" was interesting as well. No way he should have started over Justise- I don't think many anticipated what a phenomenal talent he was. But with the right attitude, Rasheed could have played the Matt Jones role late in the season when Justise was moved to the 4 in favor of Amile. He's a more talented athlete, has a better shooting stroke, and is capable of being an equally good defender as Jones. Attitude was clearly the x-factor there.

I disagree strongly.

Matt Jones was a superior defender and capable of defending multiple positions. Matt Jones is stronger than Sheed and a better rebounder, especially on the offensive glass. Sheed had trouble defending on the perimeter without using his hands and fouling. He was athletic, but out of control a lot of the time. I'd much rather see Matt Jones parked on the perimeter for catch and shoot 3s than watching Sheed drive into triple teams, wildly throw up a shot and wonder why he didn't get a foul call.

He also wasn't *that* much better as a shooter. Sheed shot 40% from 3. Matt shot 37.6%. Matt also shot better from 2 (45% to 42%).

Glad to see that he's seemingly learned from this and that he's harboring no ill will toward K. Maybe he realizes it was tough love. However, the tense you picked out is interesting, as if he *still* believed he should have been starting. It's unfortunate that Sheed could not accept the role of sixth man/top scorer with 2nd unit. Vinnie "Microwave" Johnson made a living off it in the NBA. A lot of players are far too focused on starting games rather than focusing on the minutes played and who FINISHES the game. Had he accepted his role, things would have been much better for him.

But there is zero chance he comes back. Zero.

1999ballboy
04-29-2015, 08:57 PM
I never thought there was a chance he comes back, but you don't think that a 21-year-old young man (who already seems somewhat delusional about the idea that he should have be starting) might have also been a tad deluded into thinking that there was a sliver of a chance that he could return to the team, pre-Ingram?

Now, Matt Jones is actually a great counterexample to Rasheed. He stuck it out after at times struggling to find his niche on the court through his freshman year, and was greatly rewarded for doing so. I was only giving a retrospective what-if. With a different attitude, I believe Sulaimon's ceiling was higher. If he had turned out how most of us hoped he would after his freshman year, I believe that given Justise's eventual switch to the 4, Rasheed could have started at wing over Matt Jones. That's not a knock on Jones- I'm not gonna sit here and argue that starting someone who helped us win a championship was a mistake- but rather a lamentable observation of how Rasheed's alleged attitude (which in my mind, can include the mental on-court defensive shortcomings you cited) was his downfall.

devilirium
04-29-2015, 09:03 PM
^Agree with 1999, I'd give Sheed the edge over Jones in terms of offensive versatility. Sheed could catch and shoot, dish a bit, and also put it on the floor and can jumpers. Matt was more catch and shoot. Both were very good on-ball defenders, though I'll admit that Matt was a better rebounder. Matt didn't quite have Sheed's first step or his handle. This is partly, why Sheed ran the point at times earlier in the year, and also why we were desperate to get Thornton next year. I love Matt Jones, but he is not the answer at point getting major minutes.

Regarding the article, it was especially candid and Sheed acquitted himself well. I hope that Coach K and Rasheed will mend fences one day. It would be a shame if the last part of their relationship consisted of K reading him the statement that he was going to read to the press.

I'm cheering for the comeback !

1999ballboy
04-29-2015, 09:11 PM
One other thing from Ferry's post that I found interesting was the mention of Sheed not accepting a "2nd unit leader" type of role. If I recall, there was a period in 2013-14 when he actually seemed (outwardly) to take to this role quite well. It's unfortunate that the media keeps on hammering home the idea that the wholes of his sophomore and junior years were total disappointments. I definitely recall some games from 2014 where he excelled in that very role, especially when K was doing the platoon substitutions early in the season. But I agree with Ferry that he didn't seem to take to it as well in 2015. Maybe coming off the bench 2 years in a row just hurt his pride too much. I hope this has been as humbling for him as it sounds.

devilirium
04-29-2015, 09:14 PM
'99, you're right about that. He actually was playing well over 30 minutes a game at the end of his sophomore year. People remember the beginning of the year when he wasn't in shape.

MCFinARL
04-29-2015, 09:19 PM
I think K's on record as saying that Rasheed is not coming back. I suppose K could change his mind, but I'd rate that as highly unlikely. While Rasheed does sound like he's maturing, it's all probably still too recent, and the emotions on both sides still too fresh and raw, for him to come back. If there's going to be a reconciliation between Rasheed and K, I think it will take more time. As far as I can tell, K is going ahead with recruiting and planning for next year under the assumption that Rasheed won't be on the team.


Brandon Ingram.


I feel pretty sure that is in no way a factor.

Not a factor from the perspective of the team, perhaps, but quite possibly a factor from the perspective of Sulaimon. At this point, he has nothing to gain (other than brownie points) from a year on the Duke bench behind a new set of players, and with Ingram and Thornton coming in, he would have to work his way up over them, Jones, Allen and Kennard to get on the court. [I'm assuming, all things considered, that even if Coach K were willing to take him back--which I think very unlikely--Sulaimon would start at the bottom of the ladder and have to earn his way up every step.] So if his hope is to reach the NBA, staying at Duke would probably not be the best option for him even if it were available. A fresh start with a new coach and no baggage, on a team with significant need for perimeter players, would be a better choice.

MaxAMillion
04-29-2015, 09:26 PM
I give Rasheed a lot of credit. One he admits that he should have handled things better and two he waited to respond (certainly not overshadowing what the team accomplished). He sounds like someone who is starting to mature and grow up. I have known plenty of people older than Rasheed who lacked maturity.

G man
04-29-2015, 11:19 PM
Can anyone possibly imagine what that must have felt like watching your teammates win a title? I think we all wish him the best. I hope he has some big accomplishments in his future. I would hate for this to define his basketball career. Best of luck Sheed I pray that you are successful.

gep
04-29-2015, 11:23 PM
Not only that... but to be roommates with Amile and Sean? And greet them upon their return from the game? I just hope that all of this this means that Rasheed has accepted his fate (and his role in it) and has moved on.

53n206
04-29-2015, 11:53 PM
So sorry. A good player. Quick, unafraid. Sometimes out of control on the court, and it seems on the bench and in the locker room. He gave us his all when on the court. I wish him success in the game and in life. Really happy for him he's getting his degree.

johnb
04-29-2015, 11:57 PM
The article was interesting and confirms what I'd assumed: that the dismissal had to do with overall attitude rather than the allegations.

It would have been delusional for me to think I could start for Duke. It's not delusional for Sheed to believe he should have started.

K does not strike me as someone who would schmooze with a player he's in the process of dismissing. As I recall, his conversation with Andre Dawkins was notably brief when he informed Andre he was taking a year off.

This seemed permanent from the beginning. If we were playing with Boston College talent, and Rasheed were begging to come back, I could imagine a different outcome. Playing with our talent makes it easier to not consider a highly skilled guy who's been a behavior problem.

Anyway, good luck to him... It must have been tough to go through all of this on a national stage, but I hope he ends up a happy guy.

btw, if he ends up in the NBA, do we get to count him as an alum who made it?

OZ
04-30-2015, 12:08 AM
I'm not so sure. The timing of these comments is interesting. Not only is it the first time he's commented on his dismissal, but it's the first time he's confirmed that he believes he should be a grad transfer. Even if, on Coach K's end, there was no way Sheed was coming back, I wouldn't be surprised there was a part of Sheed that was holding out hope.

Coach K had never dismissed a player before Sheed.
It is clear that whatever occurred did so over a period of time - most likely with on-going conversations - and it was serious enough for Coach K to make a painful decision (I suspect it was painful for Coach K as well).
I would bet my house, car and boat that Coach K left no doubt about Sheed's future on Duke's team.
I do not believe that Ingram's commitment had anything to do with Sheed's returning or transferring.
I have always liked him and I wish him well wherever he goes.

westwall
04-30-2015, 12:09 AM
The Mom part of me just wants to give him a hug. He was the first person I thought about after the championship. I will remain a Rasheed Sulaimon fan no matter where he plays next year. If it is Maryland I will have to grit my teeth & smile through it.

Best of luck Sheed.


I'm not a Mom, but can understand and share the sentiment.

Kfanarmy
04-30-2015, 12:22 AM
Good article. Glad to have his statement on the matter. My perception was that he must have been very disruptive in practice.
Good to know he got to keep his scholly...wonder if that is through graduation or just through the academic year. Wonder if perhaps holding his tongue til the season was over was a condition to keep the scholly. In any case, the whole thing seems to have been handled as gracefully as possible, at least by the admin, team (inc. Coach K), and Rasheed.
Good luck to him and I hope his relationship with Duke Basketball becomes Amicable.

Trey21
04-30-2015, 12:36 AM
Gotta give Sheed credit for handling this with maturity. It is just a damn shame he couldn't do the same on the basketball team. There was a spot for him on the 2014-2015 team, if he had swallowed his ego but it seems it wasn't meant to be. He seemed like a heart on the sleeve type of guy in terms of basketball, and the highs/lows that he had with the staff must have been too distracting for the team.

Going to Duke is tough. You aren't promised anything, but if you grind it out and do what is asked of you (Quinn Cook, Amile Jefferson, Matt Jones, etc.) you will have success and make life long memories. You truly have to accept your role and being part of something bigger than yourself, which can be hard for any 18-22 year old, let alone a highly ranked recruit coming out of high school.

Duke got better without him, and it just sucks (especially for him) that we had such a special run without him there. The fact that he is the first player dismissed from the program has make it sting that much more. Seems to be taking in in stride, and I hope that this is just a stumble in his basketball career. I'll be cheering for him.

OZ
04-30-2015, 12:48 AM
Going to Duke is tough



And it is also a privilege, whether as a student or as a student-athlete.

gam7
04-30-2015, 02:03 AM
Agree with all the sentiments above: this was a well written, researched, and sourced article. While we in all likelihood will never know all the details about what occurred, it is good to finally hear Sheed's side of the story. I also hope that someday, somehow, we can also hear the accusers' side of the story directly from them, because after reading the article, while I feel more confident that Duke handled the situation correctly, I still don't know exactly what to think of Sheed and the allegations themselves.



Rasheed's comments about the allegations were very strong. If he thought there was any room for interpretation in terms of whether it was/wasn't a sexual assault, he has to know there is a risk that the accuser calls him out publicly about it, which would be about the worst possible situation for him and his reputation at this point. Given that he made those comments presumably knowing that that risk exists, I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt here.

Des Esseintes
04-30-2015, 02:47 AM
Rasheed's comments about the allegations were very strong. If he thought there was any room for interpretation in terms of whether it was/wasn't a sexual assault, he has to know there is a risk that the accuser calls him out publicly about it, which would be about the worst possible situation for him and his reputation at this point. Given that he made those comments presumably knowing that that risk exists, I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt here.

Or his two (2) accusers have demonstrated sufficiently that they want no part of a public dispute over what happened, and Sulaimon feels licensed to say whatever he wants. I'm hardly suggesting that to be the actual case, but "Sheed says he didn't do anything, so he must be telling the truth" is a tad lacking on the logic front. How many people publicly cop to multiple sexual assaults for a college basketball article? I'm going with: few. The article tells us little one way or another about the assaults.

Furniture
04-30-2015, 03:45 AM
There were no charges so for all intensive purposes they did not exist and he therefore has the right to say what he is saying.

subzero02
04-30-2015, 04:10 AM
Or his two (2) accusers have demonstrated sufficiently that they want no part of a public dispute over what happened, and Sulaimon feels licensed to say whatever he wants. I'm hardly suggesting that to be the actual case, but "Sheed says he didn't do anything, so he must be telling the truth" is a tad lacking on the logic front. How many people publicly cop to multiple sexual assaults for a college basketball article? I'm going with: few. The article tells us little one way or another about the assaults.

As for as public statements are concerned, these are at best alleged assaults... And the allegations have not been made by the alleged victim(s).

gam7
04-30-2015, 04:33 AM
Or his two (2) accusers have demonstrated sufficiently that they want no part of a public dispute over what happened, and Sulaimon feels licensed to say whatever he wants. I'm hardly suggesting that to be the actual case, but "Sheed says he didn't do anything, so he must be telling the truth" is a tad lacking on the logic front. How many people publicly cop to multiple sexual assaults for a college basketball article? I'm going with: few. The article tells us little one way or another about the assaults.

Ah, the truth...

I did not say that he must be telling the truth. I have no idea whether he's telling the truth. It's also possible that he is telling what he believes to be the truth, but is not the "truth" under the law or in the view of society in general.

I said that I am giving him the benefit of the doubt. In other words, there is reasonable doubt in my mind that he committed a sexual assault, and I am inclined to believe that Rasheed believes he did not commit a sexual assault. I do think that his public statements are potentially risky from a PR and legal perspective (whether he believes he's telling the truth, lying or something in between), but based on the information that has come out about the situation, Rasheed's choosing to discuss it and the words he used, I am not ready to convict the kid.

By the way, your post talks about the multiple allegations throughout, but it sounds as though there is a question as to whether there is a second accuser at all. Do you think Rasheed is lying about that?

alteran
04-30-2015, 04:46 AM
He watched as freshman Justise Winslow earned the starting spot on the wing prior to the start of this past season, and he came off the bench every game before being dismissed the day after a loss at Notre Dame.

"My frustration only grew," Sulaimon said.

It certainly is. Unfortunately, Rasheed has made it a factor, by his past behavior.

I must have missed something. The original quote seemed to imply that a big reason K would not let Sheed back in was because he'd gotten Ingram. I was just saying I didn't think that'd be what stopped K from taking Sheed back.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
04-30-2015, 06:54 AM
Or his two (2) accusers have demonstrated sufficiently that they want no part of a public dispute over what happened, and Sulaimon feels licensed to say whatever he wants. I'm hardly suggesting that to be the actual case, but "Sheed says he didn't do anything, so he must be telling the truth" is a tad lacking on the logic front. How many people publicly cop to multiple sexual assaults for a college basketball article? I'm going with: few. The article tells us little one way or another about the assaults.

Thanks for injecting a little sanity here. Look, it's a nice article and Sheed says what he's supposed to say. Apparently, he spent most of his Duke career not displaying that level of maturity. And yes, it's hard to imagine the complicated emotions he must have felt watching all his teammates cut down the nets in Indy.

But come on folks - using this one interview where he says what he's supposed to say as evidence that he's clearly innocent, has grown up (it's been what - three months), and ought to be offered his spot back on the Duke team is absurd. Duke has made it perfectly clear that they have moved on from the situation and have no interest in discussing it further. This means Rasheed could come out and say that he got booted from the team for missing too many free-throws in practice and he won't be contradicted.


i wish rasheed well in his future, which includes improving on himself. regardless how one characterizes the hearsay surrounding him, he is also the only player coach k has kicked off the team. forgive me if i read the article with a cynical eye - rasheed has an agenda and seems to have been well prepared for the interview.

This rather sums up my perspective on the entire thing. It's amazing to me how many posters on here seem to take the silence from the Duke staff and administration as some sort of tacit endorsement, when in fact it feels to me much more like "if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all."


The article was interesting and confirms what I'd assumed: that the dismissal had to do with overall attitude rather than the allegations.

It would have been delusional for me to think I could start for Duke. It's not delusional for Sheed to believe he should have started.

K does not strike me as someone who would schmooze with a player he's in the process of dismissing. As I recall, his conversation with Andre Dawkins was notably brief when he informed Andre he was taking a year off.

This seemed permanent from the beginning. If we were playing with Boston College talent, and Rasheed were begging to come back, I could imagine a different outcome. Playing with our talent makes it easier to not consider a highly skilled guy who's been a behavior problem.

Anyway, good luck to him... It must have been tough to go through all of this on a national stage, but I hope he ends up a happy guy.

I sincerely hope that our level of talent has Jack squat to do with how any of this has been handled, but you might be right.


There were no charges so for all intensive purposes they did not exist and he therefore has the right to say what he is saying.

You are half right - he has a right to say whatever he likes. And I suppose you are correct in the tautology that if there are no charges the charges don't exist (for all intents and/or purposes), but to suggest that if there are no charges there's no ramifications is simply untrue.



Apologies if I coming off as hard-hearted or mean-spirited here. At the end of the day, if Coach K felt that the best course of action was to dismiss Rasheed, I'm inclined to side with Coach. I'm not going to spend my off-season reading into Sulaimon quotes hoping to discern whether he's grown as man or "wishing him all the best" if he becomes a Terrapin. Independent of the allegations, he's made a pile of mistakes, and the allegations don't exactly give me more reasons to start looking for reasons to excuse him.

Sure, I wish him success - I also wish success to the person who takes my drivers license picture. And my neighbor down the street that I've never exchanged two words with.


btw, if he ends up in the NBA, do we get to count him as an alum who made it?

You are welcome to. I will not.

I will say, I am impressed that he stuck at school and seems to be working hard towards his diploma. I'm sure that was far from the easiest path.

Henderson
04-30-2015, 08:21 AM
Although the university is prohibited by FERPA from releasing the details of its investigation(s) into the assault "allegations", Rasheed himself is under no such limitations. Another provision of FERPA guarantees a student access to his/her records. He could get a copy of the investigatory file that presumably found no evidence to move forward and release that file (or relevant portions) if he wanted to make his case publicly. Indeed, it seems likely to me that any graduate program would want to see that file before granting him admission.

I'm not saying he should release that file (or part of it), let alone that he should feel obligated to do so. Only pointing out that he could if he wanted to.

[As a side note, if Sheed turned that file over to a graduate program as part of his application, that file in the hands of the school to which he applied would not be FERPA protected unless he actually enrolled there. Application materials submitted by a student who does not attend are not covered by FERPA, and if that school is a state institution, the file would likely be subject to that state's public records law.]

TKG
04-30-2015, 08:26 AM
Although the university is prohibited by FERPA from releasing the details of its investigation(s) into the assault "allegations", Rasheed himself is under no such limitations. Another provision of FERPA guarantees a student access to his/her records. He could get a copy of the investigatory file that presumably found no evidence to move forward and release that file (or relevant portions) if he wanted to make his case publicly. Indeed, it seems likely to me that any graduate program would want to see that file before granting him admission.

I'm not saying he should release that file (or part of it), let alone that he should feel obligated to do so. Only pointing out that he could if he wanted to.

[As a side note, if Sheed turned that file over to a graduate program as part of his application, that file in the hands of the school to which he applied would not be FERPA protected unless he actually enrolled there. Application materials submitted by a student who does not attend are not covered by FERPA, and if that school is a state institution, the file would likely be subject to that state's public records law.]


If he were to gain admisssion to the University of Maryland do those personal files become subject to FOIA claims, given that the University of Maryland is a public institution? Or does FERPA still apply?

Henderson
04-30-2015, 08:30 AM
If he were to gain admisssion to the University of Maryland do those personal files become subject to FOIA claims, given that the University of Maryland is a public institution? Or does FERPA still apply?

It depends on whether he ends up enrolling at Maryland. If he does, his application materials become FERPA protected (i.e. not subject to a public records request). If he submits those materials but doesn't enroll at Maryland, those materials are not FERPA protected and would be subject to Maryland's public records law.

Note that each state's public records law is different, and I don't know what Maryland's says. Maryland's "FOIA" may not give the public access to non-enrolled student application materials.

MCFinARL
04-30-2015, 08:41 AM
Although the university is prohibited by FERPA from releasing the details of its investigation(s) into the assault "allegations", Rasheed himself is under no such limitations. Another provision of FERPA guarantees a student access to his/her records. He could get a copy of the investigatory file that presumably found no evidence to move forward and release that file (or relevant portions) if he wanted to make his case publicly. Indeed, it seems likely to me that any graduate program would want to see that file before granting him admission.

I'm not saying he should release that file (or part of it), let alone that he should feel obligated to do so. Only pointing out that he could if he wanted to.

[As a side note, if Sheed turned that file over to a graduate program as part of his application, that file in the hands of the school to which he applied would not be FERPA protected unless he actually enrolled there. Application materials submitted by a student who does not attend are not covered by FERPA, and if that school is a state institution, the file would likely be subject to that state's public records law.]

But wouldn't the file have information about the alleged assault victim(s), whom the university would presumably have tried to speak with? If so, could Duke hand that file over to Sulaimon without violating FERPA? Or would Sulaimon have a right to the file with that information blacked out?

Bluedog
04-30-2015, 08:44 AM
By the way, your post talks about the multiple allegations throughout, but it sounds as though there is a question as to whether there is a second accuser at all. Do you think Rasheed is lying about that?

This wasn't directed towards me, but thought I'd give it a crack anyway. It's my impression that Rasheed was never informed of a second allegation, but that a story was shared by a second individual during a confidential off campus retreat covering topics of gender, race, etc. during one of their private group sessions. So, it's not that he's lying about it because he was never told about it -- but that doesn't mean that an allegation wasn't made behind closed doors unbeknownst to him (again, in private / confidence, with no actual charges or accusations being filed to the school or police). It's even possible that the Duke admin was unaware of it and the Chronicle just published third hand gossip.

nocilla
04-30-2015, 09:02 AM
But wouldn't the file have information about the alleged assault victim(s), whom the university would presumably have tried to speak with? If so, could Duke hand that file over to Sulaimon without violating FERPA? Or would Sulaimon have a right to the file with that information blacked out?

Maybe their isn't even a file at all. As far as I know, they don't have an accusation, much less an accuser. There was a rumor overheard at a retreat and the person wanted to remain anonyous. Maybe the person was identified and there was a thorough investigation. Or maybe they had no name and no charge. The truth is, we don't know and probably never will.

Henderson
04-30-2015, 09:12 AM
But wouldn't the file have information about the alleged assault victim(s), whom the university would presumably have tried to speak with? If so, could Duke hand that file over to Sulaimon without violating FERPA? Or would Sulaimon have a right to the file with that information blacked out?

It's the latter. Anytime a student record also contains the name(s) of other students (or former students), that record belongs to each student named. So Sulaimon would only be entitled to a redacted version. In FERPA land, it's called "de-identification".

For anyone who is interested (and who wouldn't be?), here are a couple FAQs on that topic from the US Dept. of Ed., which administers FERPA. Note that in some cases, redaction doesn't sufficiently protect the "other student", because his/her name may be discernable based on "other information" like news reports. In that case, the school can't turn over that record at all. But it can (and must) permit the requesting student (here, Sulaimon) access to as much as possible -- for example the conclusion that says, "no credible evidence to pursue."

What if the educational record contains information on more than one student?
This situation typically arises when disciplinary records are requested. When determining how FERPA applies, consider the basic rule that FERPA creates a privacy right in education records and other personally identifiable information. Unless an exception applies, only the parent or eligible student may authorize disclosure of the private information. Now, assume Student A invokes his right to review particular education records, but the documents also contain information about Student B. Here, Student A does not have the right to look at records containing information about Student B. Student A is entitled to look at or be informed about only the specific information about himself.

Can education records be released after redaction or "de-identification"?
Yes. If all personally identifiable information has been redacted, then education records may be released without consent. But redacting, or deleting, all "personally identifiable information" is more difficult than it appears. "Personally identifiable information" can mean more than a name or physical description. In some instances, a brief description of an event might qualify as "personally identifiable information." For example, in a smaller community, a brief description of an event might be all that is needed to connect a particular student with the event. Therefore, when considering whether to release redacted records, the school needs to consider "other information."

"Other information" means any information that is linked or linkable to a student. For example, such information might include media coverage in the "school community", publically available records, published directories, or law enforcement records. In other words, the school must consider the totality of the circumstances, or the cumulative effect of all available information. Before disclosing redacted or questionable information, ask: "Could a reasonable person in the school community identify the student with reasonable certainty?"

Knatty05
04-30-2015, 09:19 AM
In following this story and the posts, I get frustrated.

First, the 2 young ladies never came forward, no article talks about them coming forward. From what was reported, it seems their "friends" were the ones who spoke out about it. So I think people need to take this into consideration.

Next, I always beleived Coach K did the right thing, every step of the way. Without either young lady coming out about it there is no case. Friends can, and have, easily blown things out of proportion. My take is he had two encounters with young ladies and probably never called them the next day. From my younger days, that usually ticked the girls off and lead to some statements being made that were "stretching" the truth.

I hope Rasheed had grown up and is now displaying a more mature attitude. I know I am in the small group but I really would like to seem him prove himself to Coach K and get reinstated. I want him to finish hbis days at Duke. to have Grayson, Luke, Matt and Rasheed at the wings

PG Thornton
Wings Grayson, Luke, Matt & Rasheed
Forwards Ingram & Amile
Post Marshall and Obi

Then red shirt Robinson and Vrank (not sure of his full last name).

With the wings they would have, I can't imagine a team being able to keep up with them. Usually when a team goes to their bench the other team can relax and go to their bench. with those 4 continously running I am not sure any one could match them. This might be wishful thinking but I am going to continue to hope.

I think Rasheed could really make a name for himself, at the next level, by showing everyone he can come off the bench and be a main contributor. It would speak volumes about his character. And no I don't think Coach K would be closed to the idea.

Henderson
04-30-2015, 09:19 AM
Maybe their isn't even a file at all. As far as I know, they don't have an accusation, much less an accuser. There was a rumor overheard at a retreat and the person wanted to remain anonyous. Maybe the person was identified and there was a thorough investigation. Or maybe they had no name and no charge. The truth is, we don't know and probably never will.

There's a file. Federal law (Title IX) requires an investigation if the university becomes aware of a possible sexual assault, whether there has been a formal allegation or not. And that investigation must be documented. Here, the statements from Duke made it pretty clear that they followed that rule. So there was some investigation, even if it led nowhere.

94duke
04-30-2015, 09:22 AM
Or his two (2) accusers have demonstrated sufficiently that they want no part of a public dispute over what happened, and Sulaimon feels licensed to say whatever he wants. I'm hardly suggesting that to be the actual case, but "Sheed says he didn't do anything, so he must be telling the truth" is a tad lacking on the logic front. How many people publicly cop to multiple sexual assaults for a college basketball article? I'm going with: few. The article tells us little one way or another about the assaults.

Notice he says that there was only one accuser, not two. The Chronicle article didn't even get the number of accusers correct.


"This whole time I've been told about one allegation and I have no idea where the second allegation came from," Sulaimon said. "It's false. It's purely fiction [that there's even a second allegation]."
link again for easy reference (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/12787744/rasheed-sulaimon-denies-assault-says-dismissal-was-separate-matter)

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
04-30-2015, 09:23 AM
This thread is degenerating into speculation and FOIA requests. Enjoy.

Henderson
04-30-2015, 09:30 AM
This thread is degenerating into speculation and FOIA requests. Enjoy.

Although it's straying a bit, the point was that Sheed could access and release his investigation file to show his "exoneration" (too strong a term I know) if he wanted to. Sorry about all the boring detail.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
04-30-2015, 09:36 AM
Although it's straying a bit, the point was that Sheed could access and release his investigation file to show his "exoneration" (too strong a term I know) if he wanted to. Sorry about all the boring detail.

Oh, I understand the reasoning. I just find the idea of digging through detailed private records in order to know whether or not to exonerate him to be very distasteful.

DukeDevil
04-30-2015, 09:45 AM
Man, you have to feel for the guy. After his first year he had a pretty good shot at a 1st round pick, and turned it down to come back only to find his minutes and draft stock decline. Who knows how the conversation went, but you have to think that he got advice from the coaches that pushed him in the direction of returning, and this year he finds several freshman who take up most of the minutes he felt he should have had by nature of seniority. On top of that, they all get increasing hype to be able to leave as one and dones (well Justice and Tyus were up in the air at that point, but the whisperings were definitely out there) and now at the end of the year the three of them make the jump to the NBA that he may regret not taking in retrospect.

You may not agree with all the logic above (should he have been a starter, would he have been a first rounder) but you know that it's all played into his thoughts. Tough stuff.

Also, I say "feel for the guy" giving him the presumption of innocence for the allegations, and I reserve the right to change my attitude if more comes out on that.

Henderson
04-30-2015, 09:47 AM
Oh, I understand the reasoning. I just find the idea of digging through detailed private records in order to know whether or not to exonerate him to be very distasteful.

And I agree with you, which is why I made clear that I wasn't suggesting Rasheed should release the file. No one mentioned this until Sheed gave the ESPN interview. But he seems to have given the interview to help rehabilitate himself in the public eye. If he wanted to, he could go further.

If UNC's former players wanted to back Roy on The Scandal, they could have released their transcripts. They shouldn't have to, but if they wanted to make their point, they could have.

sagegrouse
04-30-2015, 09:54 AM
There's a file. Federal law (Title IX) requires an investigation if the university becomes aware of a possible sexual assault, whether there has been a formal allegation or not. And that investigation must be documented. Here, the statements from Duke made it pretty clear that they followed that rule. So there was some investigation, even if it led nowhere.

Probably already covered, but the Duke Athletic Department became aware of "allegations" and immediately passed them on to the Office of Student Conduct. In fact, the AD's office may have broken the speed of light in passing this hot potato.

Therefore, there is certainly a file at Duke and there was an investigation, which is required by the U.S. Department of Education.

tux
04-30-2015, 10:22 AM
Man, you have to feel for the guy. After his first year he had a pretty good shot at a 1st round pick, and turned it down to come back only to find his minutes and draft stock decline. Who knows how the conversation went, but you have to think that he got advice from the coaches that pushed him in the direction of returning, and this year he finds several freshman who take up most of the minutes he felt he should have had by nature of seniority. On top of that, they all get increasing hype to be able to leave as one and dones (well Justice and Tyus were up in the air at that point, but the whisperings were definitely out there) and now at the end of the year the three of them make the jump to the NBA that he may regret not taking in retrospect.

You may not agree with all the logic above (should he have been a starter, would he have been a first rounder) but you know that it's all played into his thoughts. Tough stuff.

Also, I say "feel for the guy" giving him the presumption of innocence for the allegations, and I reserve the right to change my attitude if more comes out on that.


If he's not a first rounder now, he probably wasn't two years ago either. Guys who never actually test the draft waters are much more likely to get overrated by the media after the season. "He would have been lottery" or "he would have been first round" are always very dubious claims. I know that's not the position you're taking, but I just see those kind of statements a lot --

By K's own admission, 2013-2014 was not his best year. I know K values honesty, but I for one thought it was odd the way he proclaimed Hood and Parker to be the alpha dogs even before the season began. Rasheed probably suffered the most by getting pushed down in the pecking order before the season even started. Obviously, he didn't handle it very well. He thought he had already earned something that K thought he hadn't yet. My guess is that K was trying to push Sheed. While I like the fact that K plays the "best" players and doesn't overrate seniority, I'm not sure what he accomplished by not letting things play out on there own --- no need IMO to say those things publicly...

roywhite
04-30-2015, 10:47 AM
Don't know the truth behind allegations of sexual assault, and I suspect we won't ever know. I've got to believe, based on what both Sheed and K have said, that the dismissal was likely for other reasons, that there was a history of discipline and warnings.

A record of 18-1 and a National Championship for the team after Sulaimon indicates to me that the dismissal became an overall positive for the development, chemistry, and performance of the team. It's also notable that this is the first such dismissal in Coach K's very long coaching career.

For Sheed, I'll be interested in his progress. He certainly has strong points to his game, including good shooting range, speed, and defensive ability. Can he improve his shot selection, and can he learn to finish his drives with more success? Seems to be a case of needing more maturity on the court (and preparation, conditioning, etc.) as well as working toward more personal maturity. I don't see him likely to be an NBA player, but that's just my opinion, and he certainly can improve.

He deserves credit for sticking with his school work, being positive about his former teammates, and being serious about his future.

wilson
04-30-2015, 10:53 AM
I suspect this will be a rather unpopular opinion here, but I have no interest in seeing Rasheed reinstated to the Duke team. The fact that Coach K saw fit to dismiss a player for the first time in his ~40-year career is, to me, drastic and extreme enough as to be highly telling. I don't know whether or not Rasheed engaged in any sexual misconduct, but to be honest, I already don't like the fact that his situation has cast a cloud upon the program. I don't actively wish ill upon Rasheed, but neither do I expect or intend to invest a great deal of interest in whatever his career's next step might be. As stated by the program leadership, Rasheed had myriad opportunities to straighten up, and he repeatedly failed to do so. If he lands on his feet in a good place and/or manages to make the leap to the next level, then that's great and I won't at all begrudge his success, but it also won't be any source of distress for me if he ends up fully fumbling away the great opportunity he had as a basketball player at Duke.

Edouble
04-30-2015, 11:29 AM
I suspect this will be a rather unpopular opinion here, but I have no interest in seeing Rasheed reinstated to the Duke team. The fact that Coach K saw fit to dismiss a player for the first time in his ~40-year career is, to me, drastic and extreme enough as to be highly telling. I don't know whether or not Rasheed engaged in any sexual misconduct, but to be honest, I already don't like the fact that his situation has cast a cloud upon the program. I don't actively wish ill upon Rasheed, but neither do I expect or intend to invest a great deal of interest in whatever his career's next step might be. As stated by the program leadership, Rasheed had myriad opportunities to straighten up, and he repeatedly failed to do so. If he lands on his feet in a good place and/or manages to make the leap to the next level, then that's great and I won't at all begrudge his success, but it also won't be any source of distress for me if he ends up fully fumbling away the great opportunity he had as a basketball player at Duke.

I am under the impression that this is the majority opinion. It is certainly mine.


Don't know the truth behind allegations of sexual assault, and I suspect we won't ever know. I've got to believe, based on what both Sheed and K have said, that the dismissal was likely for other reasons, that there was a history of discipline and warnings.

A record of 18-1 and a National Championship for the team after Sulaimon indicates to me that the dismissal became an overall positive for the development, chemistry, and performance of the team. It's also notable that this is the first such dismissal in Coach K's very long coaching career.

For Sheed, I'll be interested in his progress. He certainly has strong points to his game, including good shooting range, speed, and defensive ability. Can he improve his shot selection, and can he learn to finish his drives with more success? Seems to be a case of needing more maturity on the court (and preparation, conditioning, etc.) as well as working toward more personal maturity. I don't see him likely to be an NBA player, but that's just my opinion, and he certainly can improve.

He deserves credit for sticking with his school work, being positive about his former teammates, and being serious about his future.

I believe I have noted this in several threads. It seems like there was a strong correlation between Sheed being out the door, and this team becoming this incredibly close "band of brothers"/"eight is enough", tight, love-each-other group of guys. I'll note also that before the 18-1 stretch, we were 3-3 in the previous six games. As soon as Rasheed left, we went on a roll. Not only does the record reflect this, but the team itself began to get better and better on a game to game basis, minus the Notre Dame hiccup, over the next 19 games.

Why, oh why, would one want that guy back on the team?


Man, you have to feel for the guy. After his first year he had a pretty good shot at a 1st round pick, and turned it down to come back only to find his minutes and draft stock decline. Who knows how the conversation went, but you have to think that he got advice from the coaches that pushed him in the direction of returning, and this year he finds several freshman who take up most of the minutes he felt he should have had by nature of seniority. On top of that, they all get increasing hype to be able to leave as one and dones (well Justice and Tyus were up in the air at that point, but the whisperings were definitely out there) and now at the end of the year the three of them make the jump to the NBA that he may regret not taking in retrospect.

You may not agree with all the logic above (should he have been a starter, would he have been a first rounder) but you know that it's all played into his thoughts. Tough stuff.

Also, I say "feel for the guy" giving him the presumption of innocence for the allegations, and I reserve the right to change my attitude if more comes out on that.

If he'd listened to the coaching staff, I have no doubt he would be in a position to be drafted as a first round pick this June.

He has great talent, but would not listen to the staff on how to play, nor would he accept his role coming off the bench. He may not have started, but he was given every chance to earn minutes. I can imagine a scenario where if Rasheed had only trusted Coach K and the Duke staff, Rasheed is the one exploding off the bench in the title game instead of Grayson. Allen's heroics are a testament to listening to the staff, staying ready, being a team player... all that made him an instant Duke title game legend, and put him in the position of having to tell people that he is staying at Duke for his sophomore year!

For another example, look at Jon Scheyer's career arc. He started as a freshman, and then was a super sixth man as a sophomore. Coming off the bench, however, didn't affect his impact! He played starter's minutes. At the end of his career, Jon was a key player on a championship team and was in a position to try out for the Miami Heat. I trust that the staff would have looked out for Rasheed's and the team's best interests, if only he had trusted them, and if he had, he would be in a better position now for it.

The only player with NBA potential that did not make the NBA under Coach K, whom I can think of, was Ricky Price, who also has himself to blame. It's not like our basketball staff is trying to keep people out of the NBA. But if Rasheed couldn't accept competing for minutes at Duke, perhaps he is ill equipped for pro basketball.

wilson
04-30-2015, 11:36 AM
He has great talent, but would not listen to the staff on how to play, nor would he accept his role coming off the bench. He may not have started, but he was given every chance to earn minutes. I can imagine a scenario where if Rasheed had only trusted Coach K and the Duke staff, Rasheed is the one exploding off the bench in the title game instead of Grayson. Allen's heroics are a testament to listening to the staff, staying ready, being a team player... all that made him an instant Duke title game legend, and put him in the position of having to tell people that he is staying at Duke for his sophomore year!

For another example, look at Jon Scheyer's career arc. He started as a freshman, and then was a super sixth man as a sophomore. Coming off the bench, however, didn't affect his impact! He played starter's minutes. At the end of his career, Jon was a key player on a championship team and was in a position to try out for the Miami Heat. I trust that the staff would have looked out for Rasheed's and the team's best interests, if only he had trusted them, and if he had, he would be in a better position now for it. Yes, exactly. To that list, we can add Nate James, Carlos Boozer, Billy McCaffrey (and others), all of whom had to accept periods of coming off the bench for various reasons, before getting their chances to shine and contribute to legendary championship teams. One of the most consistent features of Coach K's philosophy has always been that any player's role on the team must be earned and is always subject to adjustment according to the team's overall needs. This has never been any secret; just ask Kris Humphries, who was shown the door before ever even arriving because he couldn't accept K's refusal to guarantee X minutes per game. Rasheed's failure to accept the same reality is his fault alone, and I'm having a hard time feeling particularly sorry for him.

Henderson
04-30-2015, 11:39 AM
But if Rasheed couldn't accept competing for minutes at Duke, perhaps he is ill equipped for pro basketball.

Perhaps. Or perhaps there's been some growth. He says so. But I don't know. He gets another year to show yes or no.

Troublemaker
04-30-2015, 11:41 AM
By K's own admission, 2013-2014 was not his best year. I know K values honesty, but I for one thought it was odd the way he proclaimed Hood and Parker to be the alpha dogs even before the season began. Rasheed probably suffered the most by getting pushed down in the pecking order before the season even started. Obviously, he didn't handle it very well. He thought he had already earned something that K thought he hadn't yet. My guess is that K was trying to push Sheed. While I like the fact that K plays the "best" players and doesn't overrate seniority, I'm not sure what he accomplished by not letting things play out on there own --- no need IMO to say those things publicly...

Coach K declared Hood and Parker the alpha dogs after October practices had started and after all the offseason conditioning, drills and pickup. (And WRT Hood, Rodney had practiced with the team during his transfer sit-out year, so Coach had a really good idea of where he stood). I don't think calling Rodney and Jabari the two best players at that point in time was unreasonable.

Also, for comparison, in the end-of-season press conference a few days after the Mercer loss, Coach K basically announced that he was going to build next season's team around Okafor. This was in late March! Before all the offseason stuff and way before practice would start. Coach followed through, made Jah the centerpiece, and that team turned out okay. Players need to be able to handle their role shifting from year to year.

flyingdutchdevil
04-30-2015, 11:47 AM
Coach K declared Hood and Parker the alpha dogs after October practices had started and after all the offseason conditioning, drills and pickup. (And WRT Hood, Rodney had practiced with the team during his transfer sit-out year, so Coach had a really good idea of where he stood). I don't think calling Rodney and Jabari the two best players at that point in time was unreasonable.

Also, for comparison, in the end-of-season press conference a few days after the Mercer loss, Coach K basically announced that he was going to build next season's team around Okafor. This was in late March! Before all the offseason stuff and way before practice would start. Coach followed through, made Jah the centerpiece, and that team turned out okay. Players need to be able to handle their role shifting from year to year.

I have to agree with tux on this. I personally thought calling Hood and Parker the alphas was odd, and I have no doubt that this led to some of the friction with Sulaimon.

And this is a tactic that Coach K has used in the past. There is nothing wrong with it. The only issue (if you can call it that) is that Sulaimon took offense to it. It's important to remember that Sulaimon not only started his freshman year, but he was the ONLY player that could beat his name off the dribble and has been as the best returning starter his sophomore year. Should Sulaimon have been handed the reins to the program? Of course not. But I believe he assumed that he should have, given his performance during his freshman year.

Troublemaker
04-30-2015, 11:53 AM
Not a factor from the perspective of the team, perhaps, but quite possibly a factor from the perspective of Sulaimon. At this point, he has nothing to gain (other than brownie points) from a year on the Duke bench behind a new set of players, and with Ingram and Thornton coming in, he would have to work his way up over them, Jones, Allen and Kennard to get on the court. [I'm assuming, all things considered, that even if Coach K were willing to take him back--which I think very unlikely--Sulaimon would start at the bottom of the ladder and have to earn his way up every step.] So if his hope is to reach the NBA, staying at Duke would probably not be the best option for him even if it were available. A fresh start with a new coach and no baggage, on a team with significant need for perimeter players, would be a better choice.

I agree. Even if Rasheed had never been dismissed, it may have made sense for him basketball-wise to do the grad transfer thing anyway. At the time of dismissal, it looked like Matt had surpassed him in the rotation, having played more minutes than Sheed in the SJU and ND games. (Note to Chronicle writers: THIS was the key timing issue. NOT because some intern in the basketball office happened to have quit his job a few days earlier, bringing down the Duke basketball empire and checkmating Coach K into ceasing his coverup of sexual assault and dismissing Sulaimon.)

With Matt ahead of him and Grayson and Luke breathing down his neck (and who knows, had he stayed on, maybe Grayson would've surpassed Sheed as well), it makes sense for Sheed to go elsewhere for playing time even without the dismissal.

Troublemaker
04-30-2015, 12:07 PM
I have to agree with tux on this. I personally thought calling Hood and Parker the alphas was odd, and I have no doubt that this led to some of the friction with Sulaimon.

And this is a tactic that Coach K has used in the past. There is nothing wrong with it. The only issue (if you can call it that) is that Sulaimon took offense to it. It's important to remember that Sulaimon not only started his freshman year, but he was the ONLY player that could beat his name off the dribble and has been as the best returning starter his sophomore year. Should Sulaimon have been handed the reins to the program? Of course not. But I believe he assumed that he should have, given his performance during his freshman year.

I think we agree more than disagree. I'm not sure about the oddness of the announcement, but I agree that there was nothing wrong with it. Basketball teams have to be built around the best players, and if the coach can determine who the best players are early, that's a good thing for the development of that team. IMO, once it's determined, no need to beat around the bush to protect feelings. In any case, maybe Sheed should've stepped up his play to deserve mention in the conversation with Hood and Parker as the best players (if it was within his ability to do so).

Edouble
04-30-2015, 12:19 PM
I think we agree more than disagree. I'm not sure about the oddness of the announcement, but I agree that there was nothing wrong with it. Basketball teams have to be built around the best players, and if the coach can determine who the best players are early, that's a good thing for the development of that team. IMO, once it's determined, no need to beat around the bush to protect feelings. In any case, maybe Sheed should've stepped up his play to deserve mention in the conversation with Hood and Parker as the best players (if it was within his ability to do so).

Yeah... two players being declared alpha dogs and taking up two of five starting spots, and 60 (give or take) of 200 available game minutes is nothing to sulk about, if that is indeed what happened. Plenty more to go around.

Whether Coach K says it out loud, or just thinks it, we are gonna have our stars/best players. This isn't communism!

subzero02
04-30-2015, 12:26 PM
I hope the returning players this coming year will handle potentially coming off the bench better than Rasheed did. Competition for minutes is going to be intense, hopefully team chemistry won't be an issue.

bluenorth
04-30-2015, 12:30 PM
Was there ever any indication as to how Sulaimon's dismissal was really received by the remaining players? I mean beyond the statements given to the media. It may have helped to define what was acceptable and what was not, a kind of 'line in the sand'. Did that come through from anyone?

There's no arguing with the end results of a fantastic season, so perhaps this was as important a change for Coach K as deciding to play zone D.

Edouble
04-30-2015, 12:33 PM
Was there ever any indication as to how Sulaimon's dismissal was really received by the remaining players? I mean beyond the statements given to the media. It may have helped to define what was acceptable and what was not, a kind of 'line in the sand'. Did that come through from anyone?

There's no arguing with the end results of a fantastic season, so perhaps this was as important a change for Coach K as deciding to play zone D.

Rasheed being used as an example? No, I didn't get that at all.

Tom B.
04-30-2015, 12:37 PM
Coach K declared Hood and Parker the alpha dogs after October practices had started and after all the offseason conditioning, drills and pickup. (And WRT Hood, Rodney had practiced with the team during his transfer sit-out year, so Coach had a really good idea of where he stood). I don't think calling Rodney and Jabari the two best players at that point in time was unreasonable.




Also recall that Rasheed showed up at the beginning of his sophomore year out of shape. It's not a reach to conclude that his conditioning (or lack of) affected his performance in drills and practice. If he thought that he could show up out of shape and be named an alpha dog just because he'd had a good season the previous year, he was the one being unreasonable, not K. Anyone who follows the program knows that K doesn't work that way.

tux
04-30-2015, 12:46 PM
Also recall that Rasheed showed up at the beginning of his sophomore year out of shape. It's not a reach to conclude that his conditioning (or lack of) affected his performance in drills and practice. If he thought that he could show up out of shape and be named an alpha dog just because he'd had a good season the previous year, he was the one being unreasonable, not K. Anyone who follows the program knows that K doesn't work that way.

Great point re: Sheed not showing up ready to play.

wilson
04-30-2015, 12:52 PM
I hope the returning players this coming year will handle potentially coming off the bench better than Rasheed did. Competition for minutes is going to be intense, hopefully team chemistry won't be an issue.Given the degree to which the '14-'15 team repeatedly talked about team togetherness and unselfishness, I don't anticipate this being a problem. Even though there will be a lot of roster turnover, I think there's enough carryover that the returnees will be able to set the tone that the team will maximize its potential only if everyone on the roster is fully bought into the game plan and their roles within it.

Troublemaker
04-30-2015, 12:54 PM
btw, if he ends up in the NBA, do we get to count him as an alum who made it?



You are welcome to. I will not.

I will say, I am impressed that he stuck at school and seems to be working hard towards his diploma. I'm sure that was far from the easiest path.

This question made wonder how the NBA would list him, so I looked at Tarik Black as an example. Black, of course, played 3 years at Memphis and did a post-grad year at Kansas.

Both NBA.com and ESPN.com list Black's college as being Kansas.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/tarik_black/
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/2528393/tarik-black

So, if Sulaimon makes the NBA after a season with the Terps, his college would be listed as Maryland, not Duke.

killerleft
04-30-2015, 12:55 PM
I am under the impression that this is the majority opinion. It is certainly mine.



I believe I have noted this in several threads. It seems like there was a strong correlation between Sheed being out the door, and this team becoming this incredibly close "band of brothers"/"eight is enough", tight, love-each-other group of guys. I'll note also that before the 18-1 stretch, we were 3-3 in the previous six games. As soon as Rasheed left, we went on a roll. Not only does the record reflect this, but the team itself began to get better and better on a game to game basis, minus the Notre Dame hiccup, over the next 19 games.

Why, oh why, would one want that guy back on the team?



If he'd listened to the coaching staff, I have no doubt he would be in a position to be drafted as a first round pick this June.

He has great talent, but would not listen to the staff on how to play, nor would he accept his role coming off the bench. He may not have started, but he was given every chance to earn minutes. I can imagine a scenario where if Rasheed had only trusted Coach K and the Duke staff, Rasheed is the one exploding off the bench in the title game instead of Grayson. Allen's heroics are a testament to listening to the staff, staying ready, being a team player... all that made him an instant Duke title game legend, and put him in the position of having to tell people that he is staying at Duke for his sophomore year!

For another example, look at Jon Scheyer's career arc. He started as a freshman, and then was a super sixth man as a sophomore. Coming off the bench, however, didn't affect his impact! He played starter's minutes. At the end of his career, Jon was a key player on a championship team and was in a position to try out for the Miami Heat. I trust that the staff would have looked out for Rasheed's and the team's best interests, if only he had trusted them, and if he had, he would be in a better position now for it.

The only player with NBA potential that did not make the NBA under Coach K, whom I can think of, was Ricky Price, who also has himself to blame. It's not like our basketball staff is trying to keep people out of the NBA. But if Rasheed couldn't accept competing for minutes at Duke, perhaps he is ill equipped for pro basketball.

Except for final editing, this post seems to be spot on as to how I feel about Rasheed. Why, indeed, would we want him back in a Duke uniform? He was a favorite player for me, and I loved watching him play. If he has truly seen the light, if he has acknowledged to himself the error of his ways, then I would absolutely love to see Rasheed have great success at another school. But not at Duke, please.

My feelings concerning Rasheed have absolutely nothing to do with the Chronicle article regarding supposed sexual assault(s). As far as I'm concerned, that junk should never have been published. Nobody can forget it, but I can choose to ignore it. That no one has come forward since his dismissal may lend creedence to his denial of any wrongdoing. He's certainly not 'protected' by the 'holy' basketball program now. Also, it would seem foolish for him to deny that he assaulted someone when that could only stir up a hornet's nest of feelings from the supposed victim(s) if the rumors were true.

sagegrouse
04-30-2015, 12:59 PM
Coach K declared Hood and Parker the alpha dogs after October practices had started and after all the offseason conditioning, drills and pickup. (And WRT Hood, Rodney had practiced with the team during his transfer sit-out year, so Coach had a really good idea of where he stood). I don't think calling Rodney and Jabari the two best players at that point in time was unreasonable.

Also, for comparison, in the end-of-season press conference a few days after the Mercer loss, Coach K basically announced that he was going to build next season's team around Okafor. This was in late March! Before all the offseason stuff and way before practice would start. Coach followed through, made Jah the centerpiece, and that team turned out okay. Players need to be able to handle their role shifting from year to year.


I have to agree with tux on this. I personally thought calling Hood and Parker the alphas was odd, and I have no doubt that this led to some of the friction with Sulaimon.

And this is a tactic that Coach K has used in the past. There is nothing wrong with it. The only issue (if you can call it that) is that Sulaimon took offense to it. It's important to remember that Sulaimon not only started his freshman year, but he was the ONLY player that could beat his name off the dribble and has been as the best returning starter his sophomore year. Should Sulaimon have been handed the reins to the program? Of course not. But I believe he assumed that he should have, given his performance during his freshman year.


Yeah... two players being declared alpha dogs and taking up two of five starting spots, and 60 (give or take) of 200 available game minutes is nothing to sulk about, if that is indeed what happened. Plenty more to go around.

Whether Coach K says it out loud, or just thinks it, we are gonna have our stars/best players. This isn't communism!


If I recall correctly, Rasheed was totally in the doghouse when the season started: "Out of shape," declared K.

Henderson
04-30-2015, 01:09 PM
If I recall correctly, Rasheed was totally in the doghouse when the season started: "Out of shape," declared K.

:eek::eek::eek::eek:

Lar77
04-30-2015, 01:33 PM
Reading the article, then seeing the commentary here, my mind is still spinning about this.

First, Rasheed should be congratulated for sticking it out and pursuing his degree. It could not have been easy for him (it isn't for a typical student).

Second, I am still confused about chemistry issues here. Rasheed's roommate is Amile, who I see as one of the consummate team players on this year's squad. He seemed to get along with the other players on the team. But whatever happened must have been serious, given the obvious improvement in team performance after his dismissal.

Third, thinking about that, our 3 captains next year have all learned to be role players and to contribute more as a result. The message to a young team is strong.

Fourth, wherever Rasheed winds up after graduation, I hope he finds success. I don't have an objection to him being at Duke. I enjoyed his play when he was here, But that is a matter completely in others' hands so I can't worry about it.

A great interview and article about a man who has learned something about himself for his betterment. Isn't that what college is about?

jimsumner
04-30-2015, 01:43 PM
This question made wonder how the NBA would list him, so I looked at Tarik Black as an example. Black, of course, played 3 years at Memphis and did a post-grad year at Kansas.

Both NBA.com and ESPN.com list Black's college as being Kansas.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/tarik_black/
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/2528393/tarik-black

So, if Sulaimon makes the NBA after a season with the Terps, his college would be listed as Maryland, not Duke.

FWIW, Duke does not claim Elliott Williams as one of its NBA players.

Now, EW played one season at Duke, while Sulaimon played 2.5. Duke does claim Crawford Palmer (three years) as one of its Olympians.

And of course, Williams and Palmer voluntarily left the program in good standing. So, I'm not sure if there's a precedent here.

bob blue devil
04-30-2015, 02:01 PM
FWIW, Duke does not claim Elliott Williams as one of its NBA players.

Now, EW played one season at Duke, while Sulaimon played 2.5. Duke does claim Crawford Palmer (three years) as one of its Olympians.

And of course, Williams and Palmer voluntarily left the program in good standing. So, I'm not sure if there's a precedent here.

Interesting. There's also a matter of getting one's degree. As noted above, Tariq Black is a Memphis alum, then went to Kansas for a year of grad school (not sure if he got a degree), yet his "college" is considered to be Kansas. Seems a bit off to me, but I get that from the perspective of a sports fan, it may be the appropriate classification. He could've stayed at Memphis to play his grad year.

MChambers
04-30-2015, 02:28 PM
Interesting. There's also a matter of getting one's degree. As noted above, Tariq Black is a Memphis alum, then went to Kansas for a year of grad school (not sure if he got a degree), yet his "college" is considered to be Kansas. Seems a bit off to me, but I get that from the perspective of a sports fan, it may be the appropriate classification. He could've stayed at Memphis to play his grad year.
I think you've just noticed the general disconnect between college academics and athletics!

The Gordog
04-30-2015, 03:39 PM
Thanks for injecting a little sanity here. Look, it's a nice article and Sheed says what he's supposed to say. Apparently, he spent most of his Duke career not displaying that level of maturity. And yes, it's hard to imagine the complicated emotions he must have felt watching all his teammates cut down the nets in Indy.

But come on folks - using this one interview where he says what he's supposed to say as evidence that he's clearly innocent, has grown up (it's been what - three months), and ought to be offered his spot back on the Duke team is absurd. Duke has made it perfectly clear that they have moved on from the situation and have no interest in discussing it further. This means Rasheed could come out and say that he got booted from the team for missing too many free-throws in practice and he won't be contradicted.

This rather sums up my perspective on the entire thing. It's amazing to me how many posters on here seem to take the silence from the Duke staff and administration as some sort of tacit endorsement, when in fact it feels to me much more like "if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all."


Of course the University or its representatives (Coach K) can NOT say something nice. The media has branded Rasheed an alleged rapist. To say anything nice would be seen in the minds of the consumers of the popular media as siding with, or at best excusing the actions of, a sexual predator.

For my part, he is presumed innocent as there is no evidence whatsoever against him, and no actual allegation, just hersay of an allegation. I always liked him and will continue to root for him on and off the court.

MCFinARL
04-30-2015, 04:42 PM
Interesting. There's also a matter of getting one's degree. As noted above, Tariq Black is a Memphis alum, then went to Kansas for a year of grad school (not sure if he got a degree), yet his "college" is considered to be Kansas. Seems a bit off to me, but I get that from the perspective of a sports fan, it may be the appropriate classification. He could've stayed at Memphis to play his grad year.

Yes, the NBA draft probably focuses on where players were playing immediately before entering the draft--from that perspective whether or not the player has a degree, and what school it is from, are not so important.

Troublemaker
04-30-2015, 05:33 PM
Also, for comparison, in the end-of-season press conference a few days after the Mercer loss, Coach K basically announced that he was going to build next season's team around Okafor. This was in late March! Before all the offseason stuff and way before practice would start. Coach followed through, made Jah the centerpiece, and that team turned out okay. Players need to be able to handle their role shifting from year to year.

I was quickly scanning through the presser mentioned above to find the part where Coach K states that he would build around Okafor, and I came across the following clip instead where a reporter directly asked Coach about naming Jabari and Rodney as the best players on that team and if it caused any problems:

http://www.goduke.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?&db_oem_id=4200&id=3231018&start=1868

Check out Coach K's answer to that question. It's kind of eerily prophetic.

wilson
04-30-2015, 05:48 PM
I was quickly scanning through the presser mentioned above to find the part where Coach K states that he would build around Okafor, and I came across the following clip instead where a reporter directly asked Coach about naming Jabari and Rodney as the best players on that team and if it caused any problems:

http://www.goduke.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?&db_oem_id=4200&id=3231018&start=1868

Check out Coach K's answer to that question. It's kind of eerily prophetic.This is the whole conference. Any idea about when in the video it appears?

Troublemaker
04-30-2015, 05:51 PM
This is the whole conference. Any idea about when in the video it appears?

Sorry, that link should've taken you straight there. Maybe I messed up. It starts at the 31:00 minute mark.

Dukeford
04-30-2015, 06:41 PM
That's a nice story. I enjoyed watching him play and felt bad for him when the dismissal happened. But I was always a little surprised by his on court temper. It seemed like somewhere about mid-way through his soph season, he became much more vocally aggressive with the referees. As a matter of fact, I was fully expecting him to get a technical in the last couple of minutes of the Mercer game. And that same level of complaining to refs seemed to carry over into this year. That may have been a product of his frustrations.

Something else I've always wondered about....did he throw the ball at the back of a UNC player in his freshman year? I can't recall if it was home or away, but during one of the UNC games, a UNC player scored on a drive to the basket, and Sheed ended up on the floor underneath the basket. Right after the score, the game was going to TV timeout. Sheed was still on the floor but sitting upright with the ball in his hands. Right before the camera broke away to commercial, I could swear Sheed fired the ball at the back of the UNC player that had just scored as he turned and ran back toward the other end of the court. I don't know if Sheed felt like he had been fouled, or maybe the UNC player was mouthing off to him, but when the game returned from commercial break, nothing was mentioned about it. I've just always wondered if I really saw that. Does anybody else remember that?

SoCalDukeFan
04-30-2015, 06:43 PM
I hope the returning players this coming year will handle potentially coming off the bench better than Rasheed did. Competition for minutes is going to be intense, hopefully team chemistry won't be an issue.

I agree that competition for minutes will be intense. However I also think that Coach K and staff will determine the roles for each player that have the best chance of winning and that the staff will make sure that each player understands his role. There will also be pressure on the captains to keep the team "together." I don't expect anyone to get dismissed but if the coaches think a player's attitude is hurting the team, I expect that guy to spend a lot of time on the bench.

SoCal

Edouble
04-30-2015, 08:38 PM
Second, I am still confused about chemistry issues here. Rasheed's roommate is Amile, who I see as one of the consummate team players on this year's squad. He seemed to get along with the other players on the team. But whatever happened must have been serious, given the obvious improvement in team performance after his dismissal.

I'll take it a step further. All three coaches on staff: Jon, Capel, and Nate, were players who were starters, only to later become bench players. Think about that.

If those guys couldn't get the message across, I guess Rasheed was just never gonna get it.

Atldukie79
04-30-2015, 09:29 PM
It seems that the prevalence of the one and done at Duke (and others) has created a unique demand for junior and senior leadership from role players. Clearly in the "olden days" of 4 year players, the senior alpha dogs were also captains and/or team leaders. Not everyone is cut out to progress through the system and accept being out shined on the court by the new, younger stars while displaying maturity and real leadership. Cook did that (he was not entirely overshadowed, though) and I believe Amile, Plumlee and Matt can do it. But it is not an a role easily filled. Apparently Suli could neither accept being overshadowed nor could he display team first traits that are necessary for leadership roles.

MCFinARL
05-01-2015, 08:41 AM
Given the degree to which the '14-'15 team repeatedly talked about team togetherness and unselfishness, I don't anticipate this being a problem. Even though there will be a lot of roster turnover, I think there's enough carryover that the returnees will be able to set the tone that the team will maximize its potential only if everyone on the roster is fully bought into the game plan and their roles within it.




It seems that the prevalence of the one and done at Duke (and others) has created a unique demand for junior and senior leadership from role players. Clearly in the "olden days" of 4 year players, the senior alpha dogs were also captains and/or team leaders. Not everyone is cut out to progress through the system and accept being out shined on the court by the new, younger stars while displaying maturity and real leadership. Cook did that (he was not entirely overshadowed, though) and I believe Amile, Plumlee and Matt can do it. But it is not an a role easily filled. Apparently Suli could neither accept being overshadowed nor could he display team first traits that are necessary for leadership roles.

Atldukie makes a good point about the delicate balance of upperclass leadership and one-and-done talent. In this era, it will be more important than ever to continue to look for players with solid character and realistic expectations about their future prospects to be the "program players" who complement the short-termers, as well as potential one-and-dones who understand the value of team play.

I hope Wilson is right that, having hit this balance on the nose this season, Duke can take that quality into next season with leadership from Amile, Marshall and Matt. But I don't think we can count on it, even with with roster carryover.

Team chemistry is an elusive quality, and this year's team had it to a magical degree--three of our incoming freshman had played together on US teams and already knew each other well. Several of the returning players were exceptionally mature about mentoring the frosh and filling the roles the coaches saw for them, and Quinn turned into, according to Coach K, the best captain ever (or words to that effect--I'm paraphrasing here). That's not a combination likely to be duplicated anytime soon.

Even Tyler Thornton, the consummate work-hard, fill your role with enthusiasm player, couldn't translate that willingness and leadership by example into great on-court chemistry on the 2014 team (not to downplay the fact that that team, despite a poor NCAA performance, was overall very successful, it never seemed to function as smoothly as a whole team as this year's team did once it got clicking).

Duke has the pieces for a very good season next year, and I look forward to seeing what they can do. But I think if we assume they will jell as spectacularly as this team did, we may be creating unfair expectations for the team and setting ourselves up for disappointment.

roywhite
05-01-2015, 09:24 AM
Team chemistry is an elusive quality, and this year's team had it to a magical degree--three of our incoming freshman had played together on US teams and already knew each other well. Several of the returning players were exceptionally mature about mentoring the frosh and filling the roles the coaches saw for them, and Quinn turned into, according to Coach K, the best captain ever (or words to that effect--I'm paraphrasing here). That's not a combination likely to be duplicated anytime soon.

Even Tyler Thornton, the consummate work-hard, fill your role with enthusiasm player, couldn't translate that willingness and leadership by example into great on-court chemistry on the 2014 team (not to downplay the fact that that team, despite a poor NCAA performance, was overall very successful, it never seemed to function as smoothly as a whole team as this year's team did once it got clicking).

Duke has the pieces for a very good season next year, and I look forward to seeing what they can do. But I think if we assume they will jell as spectacularly as this team did, we may be creating unfair expectations for the team and setting ourselves up for disappointment.

Great points.

But, then again, who better to put this puzzle together than Coach Mike Krzyzewski and his staff?

MCFinARL
05-01-2015, 10:11 AM
Great points.

But, then again, who better to put this puzzle together than Coach Mike Krzyzewski and his staff?

Amen to that!

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
05-01-2015, 10:13 AM
I'll take it a step further. All three coaches on staff: Jon, Capel, and Nate, were players who were starters, only to later become bench players. Think about that.

If those guys couldn't get the message across, I guess Rasheed was just never gonna get it.

As someone who honest-to-goodness still has dreams that he plays for Coach K in a Duke uniform, and as someone whose heart broke when after shooting up to six feet tall in the fifth grade, I maxed out my height, and as someone who can't remember wanting anything more than a basketball scholarship to Duke - I'm afraid my sympathy for Sheed is extremely small. He was afforded an amazing opportunity, and by all accounts repeatedly failed to lived up to the standards expected of the program. I honestly can't fathom working so hard and earning such a position only to squander it.

It's heartwarming to hear that he's still close with the team and attending classes, but my brain can't comprehend wasting a shot like that. Clearly the team wasn't in any way hindered by his dismissal. Is it harder for Sheed to watch the team cut the nets without him? Or would it have been harder for him to see the team come agonizingly close to winning but come short and he was to wonder if he could have made the difference?

At the end of the day, it's difficult for me personally to drum up sympathy for someone who had the chance that I yearned for for so very long and - one way or another - blew it.

moonpie23
05-01-2015, 02:08 PM
people make mistakes.....sometimes, HUGE mistakes.....sometimes, LIFE ALTERING mistakes (for better or worse).......

I commend sheed for sticking it out in school when it would have been easier to just pack it in......


i'm hoping for sheed that this is a life altering swing for the better.

sagegrouse
05-01-2015, 02:13 PM
FWIW, Duke does not claim Elliott Williams as one of its NBA players.

Now, EW played one season at Duke, while Sulaimon played 2.5. Duke does claim Crawford Palmer (three years) as one of its Olympians.

And of course, Williams and Palmer voluntarily left the program in good standing. So, I'm not sure if there's a precedent here.

Crawford Palmer, a very good student, graduated in three years and then enrolled at the Tuck School of Business at Dartmouth. He played one year for Dartmouth, and IIRC was second-team All-Ivy. This is a very different case from Elliott Williams, who transferred (presumably in good academic standing) after his freshman year.

porkpa
05-01-2015, 08:19 PM
I often wonder If Sheed had not been dismissed from the team, whether we would have won it all.
Would Grayson Allen have got the playing time that he did if Sheed were on the team? I very much doubt it?
On thing is certain. At least in my mind it is. If we didn't have Grayson Allen playing, we would not have defeated Wisconsin.

jimsumner
05-01-2015, 09:43 PM
Crawford Palmer, a very good student, graduated in three years and then enrolled at the Tuck School of Business at Dartmouth. He played one year for Dartmouth, and IIRC was second-team All-Ivy. This is a very different case from Elliott Williams, who transferred (presumably in good academic standing) after his freshman year.

Thanks for the clarification. The point under discussion was whether schools claimed/received credit for players who started at one school and finished at another. Seemed like similar if not identical examples.

For those not familiar with Palmer, it should be noted that he had to sit out a year at Dartmouth before finishing his college career there. The current grad-school transfer rule was just a twinkle in the NCAA's eye in the early 1990s. Crawford's older brother Walter had played at Dartmouth before a brief NBA career, so the Palmer family had a comfort level with Dartmouth.

Palmer had been a starter early in the 1990-'91 season but lost his starting spot after a lackluster performance in a lop-sided loss at UVA. With Cherokee Parks on the horizon, he saw the hand-writing on the wall.

Palmer ended up playing professionally in France, married a French woman, became a naturalized French citizen and represented France in the Olympics.

A cool story.

swood1000
05-04-2015, 04:13 PM
It's heartwarming to hear that he's still close with the team and attending classes, but my brain can't comprehend wasting a shot like that.
Tends to remind us of our own folly at that age. Looking back I can't believe some of the risks I took on the assumption that nothing would happen to me. Coach K must have sat him down and explained to him in blunt terms what the risks of his behavior were but his self-image must have been such that he couldn't imagine anything worse than a suspension. Strange, though, given what happened to Andre Dawkins.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
05-04-2015, 04:31 PM
Tends to remind us of our own folly at that age. Looking back I can't believe some of the risks I took on the assumption that nothing would happen to me. Coach K must have sat him down and explained to him in blunt terms what the risks of his behavior were but his self-image must have been such that he couldn't imagine anything worse than a suspension. Strange, though, given what happened to Andre Dawkins.

Dawkins was a completely different situation. The young man endured a tragedy that lost him a family member, and shouldered some responsibility for them being on the road to begin with. This is something that the most stalwart 18 year old (or sixty year old) would likely struggle with. K encouraged him to take the time needed to get his head straight, and Andre returned for a successful senior season.

Apples and oranges.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
05-04-2015, 04:34 PM
Tends to remind us of our own folly at that age. Looking back I can't believe some of the risks I took on the assumption that nothing would happen to me. Coach K must have sat him down and explained to him in blunt terms what the risks of his behavior were but his self-image must have been such that he couldn't imagine anything worse than a suspension. Strange, though, given what happened to Andre Dawkins.

I'm sorry, I just realized I might have misread your post. If you are suggesting that Sheed ought to have had better perspective on things given that he was on the team with Andre during his difficulties, I agree.

swood1000
05-04-2015, 05:22 PM
I'm sorry, I just realized I might have misread your post. If you are suggesting that Sheed ought to have had better perspective on things given that he was on the team with Andre during his difficulties, I agree.
Yes. One would have thought that Andre's case would provide a reality counterweight to any immature fantasies about one's indispensability. But maybe he thought that he and Andre were not similarly situated.

dbcooper
05-04-2015, 07:40 PM
If I recall correctly, Rasheed was totally in the doghouse when the season started: "Out of shape," declared K.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EChnZTJicw

Sorry, I couldn't resist!;););)

DB

DukieInKansas
05-04-2015, 07:51 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EChnZTJicw

Sorry, I couldn't resist!;););)

DB

That's funny! Thanks for sharing.

wsb3
05-04-2015, 07:52 PM
I often wonder If Sheed had not been dismissed from the team, whether we would have won it all.
Would Grayson Allen have got the playing time that he did if Sheed were on the team? I very much doubt it?
On thing is certain. At least in my mind it is. If we didn't have Grayson Allen playing, we would not have defeated Wisconsin.

I told my wife after the game if Sheed is not dismissed we never win because Grayson is not in the rotation. And I think we can all agree that without Grayson we don't win.

wsb3
05-05-2015, 08:11 AM
http://duke.247sports.com/Bolt/Arizona-State-strong-with-Rasheed-Sulaimon-37120920

CDu
05-05-2015, 09:52 AM
http://duke.247sports.com/Bolt/Arizona-State-strong-with-Rasheed-Sulaimon-37120920

I wouldn't mind if Sulaimon went to Arizona State. It would help get Hurley's career there off the ground. Though I'm not sure I'd take much from the 247 site, since they also say Sulaimon won't start taking visits until after the school year.

Tom B.
05-05-2015, 01:34 PM
Dawkins was a completely different situation. The young man endured a tragedy that lost him a family member, and shouldered some responsibility for them being on the road to begin with. This is something that the most stalwart 18 year old (or sixty year old) would likely struggle with. K encouraged him to take the time needed to get his head straight, and Andre returned for a successful senior season.

Apples and oranges.


Agree. From all the reports we've heard, Rasheed's issues were issues of attitude and preparation. Andre, on the other hand, was suffering from a serious medical condition that required proper treatment.

(Yes, I realize that sometimes the line between the two can get blurry, and the former issues may sometimes manifest as symptoms of depression. But in the absence of further information, I think the distinction holds in this case.)

LastRowFan
05-05-2015, 05:15 PM
Art Chansky:

http://chapelboro.com/columns/sports-notebook/arts-angle-sulaimon-from-duke-to-unc/

I had to double check to see if it was dated April 1st.

Tom B.
05-05-2015, 05:18 PM
I had to double check to see if it was dated April 1st.


It's Chansky. So, pretty much the same reliability.

pfrduke
05-05-2015, 06:30 PM
It's Chansky. So, pretty much the same reliability.

Oh, Art:


The Tar Heels lost their new shooting small forward to Duke when Brandon Ingram signed with the Blue Devils.

Funny, I'm not aware that Ingram was ever belonged to the Tar Heels such that he was "their" small forward.

ETA: I hadn't finished reading yet - this is my favorite part:


Coach K would feel less guilty about stealing Ingram

Come on. COME ON. Who in their right mind thinks that Coach K would feel guilty about "stealing" Ingram? Clearly not Art Chansky, because he's not in his right mind. That's one of the stupidest things I've ever read. Coach K would not object to Sheed going to UNC to assuage guilt arising from signing a recruit that UNC wanted. AMAZING.

ETA #2: Any other writer and I would think this was pure satire. But Chansky's enough of a UNC homer that I think he honestly believes most of this.

theschwartz
05-05-2015, 07:02 PM
Oh, Art:



Funny, I'm not aware that Ingram was ever belonged to the Tar Heels such that he was "their" small forward.

ETA: I hadn't finished reading yet - this is my favorite part:



Come on. COME ON. Who in their right mind thinks that Coach K would feel guilty about "stealing" Ingram? Clearly not Art Chansky, because he's not in his right mind. That's one of the stupidest things I've ever read. Coach K would not object to Sheed going to UNC to assuage guilt arising from signing a recruit that UNC wanted. AMAZING.

ETA #2: Any other writer and I would think this was pure satire. But Chansky's enough of a UNC homer that I think he honestly believes most of this.

I'm not overly familiar with Mr. Chansky's work or his historical allegiances. Is this satire?

MCFinARL
05-05-2015, 07:07 PM
I'm not overly familiar with Mr. Chansky's work or his historical allegiances. Is this satire?

Whether or not it is satire, it is open about the fact that it not based on any evidence whatsoever of interest or contact between Sulaimon and UNC--so I think it counts as fantasy.

devildeac
05-05-2015, 07:14 PM
Oh, Art:



Funny, I'm not aware that Ingram was ever belonged to the Tar Heels such that he was "their" small forward.

ETA: I hadn't finished reading yet - this is my favorite part:



Come on. COME ON. Who in their right mind thinks that Coach K would feel guilty about "stealing" Ingram? Clearly not Art Chansky, because he's not in his right mind. That's one of the stupidest things I've ever read. Coach K would not object to Sheed going to UNC to assuage guilt arising from signing a recruit that UNC wanted. AMAZING.

ETA #2: Any other writer and I would think this was pure satire. But Chansky's enough of a UNC homer that I think he honestly believes most of this.

But, no matter how much drivel he publishes or fecal material he slings, Duke fans everywhere can take great comfort in the fact that whenever Art signs onto his work station, thanks to a former poster here who is an IT wizard and an extremely quick and clever thinker, he is always quoting a certain short, numerical and lettered sequence that is forever recorded in the annals of DBR history in that wonderful document known as the Handy Pocket Reference.

Des Esseintes
05-05-2015, 07:15 PM
Oh, Art:



Funny, I'm not aware that Ingram was ever belonged to the Tar Heels such that he was "their" small forward.

ETA: I hadn't finished reading yet - this is my favorite part:



Come on. COME ON. Who in their right mind thinks that Coach K would feel guilty about "stealing" Ingram? Clearly not Art Chansky, because he's not in his right mind. That's one of the stupidest things I've ever read. Coach K would not object to Sheed going to UNC to assuage guilt arising from signing a recruit that UNC wanted. AMAZING.

ETA #2: Any other writer and I would think this was pure satire. But Chansky's enough of a UNC homer that I think he honestly believes most of this.

I'll be honest. I don't live in the Triangle, and I haven't seen him mentioned on the board in quite a while. I just assumed he was dead.

Indoor66
05-06-2015, 08:32 AM
I'm not overly familiar with Mr. Chansky's work or his historical allegiances. Is this satire?

Chansky was, originally, a sports writer for the Durham Herald-Sun - I think for the Morning Herald. He was a Carolina hack then. Then he and Dennis Wuycik (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Wuycik) started up "The Poop Sheet." That rag was newsletter about Carolina recruiting and sports. It later became a "newspaper" tabloid on the same subject and is, I think, still sold at newsstands (if such things still exist).

Chansky then went to work for WCHL in chapel dump. He always was and probably always will be a hack for uncheat.

luvdahops
05-06-2015, 10:34 AM
Chansky was, originally, a sports writer for the Durham Herald-Sun - I think for the Morning Herald. He was a Carolina hack then. Then he and Dennis Wuycik (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Wuycik) started up "The Poop Sheet." That rag was newsletter about Carolina recruiting and sports. It later became a "newspaper" tabloid on the same subject and is, I think, still sold at newsstands (if such things still exist).

Chansky then went to work for WCHL in chapel dump. He always was and probably always will be a hack for uncheat.

I don't recall the "The Poop Sheet" being solely about Carolina sports and recruiting. I'm T '85 and first came across TPS in the late 70s. By that time, it was covering all conference schools, with a heavy emphasis on recruiting but also in-season commentary on teams (and conference only stats in hoops). It ultimately morphed into the "ACC Sports Journal", which is still around these days. When I was a regular reader in the 80s and 90s, the school-specific sections were done by unnamed journalists with strong ties and access (I believe Al Featherston and Bill Brill were among those that wrote on Duke). Wuycik and Dave Glenn were the editors and, other than the great Brick Oettinger on recruiting, no one else was ever directly credited (IIRC). Wuycik and Glenn are both UNC guys, but neither has ever struck me as a Carolina homer like Chansky. For example, the ACC Sports Journal was way ahead of most in focusing on the unrest/player revolt in the hoops program under Doherty.

Tom B.
05-06-2015, 11:31 AM
I don't recall the "The Poop Sheet" being solely about Carolina sports and recruiting. I'm T '85 and first came across TPS in the late 70s. By that time, it was covering all conference schools, with a heavy emphasis on recruiting but also in-season commentary on teams (and conference only stats in hoops). It ultimately morphed into the "ACC Sports Journal", which is still around these days. When I was a regular reader in the 80s and 90s, the school-specific sections were done by unnamed journalists with strong ties and access (I believe Al Featherston and Bill Brill were among those that wrote on Duke). Wuycik and Dave Glenn were the editors and, other than the great Brick Oettinger on recruiting, no one else was ever directly credited (IIRC). Wuycik and Glenn are both UNC guys, but neither has ever struck me as a Carolina homer like Chansky. For example, the ACC Sports Journal was way ahead of most in focusing on the unrest/player revolt in the hoops program under Doherty.




That squares with my recollection. When I was an undergrad at Duke in the early 1990s, The Poop Sheet/ACC Sports Journal was one of my go-to resources for well-written and well-sourced info on what was going on around the conference.

I participated in an ACC basketball fantasy league with some friends as an undergrad. We used only ACC players and their in-conference stats, so The Poop Sheet was a great resource for us because it was one of the few publications that separately broke out the players' in-conference stats.

(Aside: My senior year, one guy in our fantasy league had the draft to end all drafts. Travis Best from Georgia Tech and Junior Burrough from Virginia in the first and second rounds. Rasheed Wallace of UNC, who was just a freshman then, in (I think) the fourth. Another freshman in the fifth -- Joe Smith of Maryland. In the eighth and final round, he took yet another freshman -- Makhtar Ndiaye of Wake Forest. Of course, good ol' Makhtar never played a game for Wake, so my friend dropped him and picked up one more freshman from the remaining (small) pool of available players. A fellow named Tim Duncan.)

MCFinARL
05-06-2015, 11:40 AM
That squares with my recollection. When I was an undergrad at Duke in the early 1990s, The Poop Sheet/ACC Sports Journal was one of my go-to resources for well-written and well-sourced info on what was going on around the conference.

I participated in an ACC basketball fantasy league with some friends as an undergrad. We used only ACC players and their in-conference stats, so The Poop Sheet was a great resource for us because it was one of the few publications that separately broke out the players' in-conference stats.

(Aside: My senior year, one guy in our fantasy league had the draft to end all drafts. Travis Best from Georgia Tech and Junior Burrough from Virginia in the first and second rounds. Rasheed Wallace of UNC, who was just a freshman then, in (I think) the fourth. Another freshman in the fifth -- Joe Smith of Maryland. In the eighth and final round, he took yet another freshman -- Makhtar Ndiaye of Wake Forest. Of course, good ol' Makhtar never played a game for Wake, so my friend dropped him and picked up one more freshman from the remaining (small) pool of available players. A fellow named Tim Duncan.)

Yikes! Duncan was the last minute substitute for an 8th rounder?

Olympic Fan
05-06-2015, 11:48 AM
Chansky was, originally, a sports writer for the Durham Herald-Sun - I think for the Morning Herald. He was a Carolina hack then. Then he and Dennis Wuycik (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Wuycik) started up "The Poop Sheet." That rag was newsletter about Carolina recruiting and sports. It later became a "newspaper" tabloid on the same subject and is, I think, still sold at newsstands (if such things still exist).

Chansky then went to work for WCHL in chapel dump. He always was and probably always will be a hack for uncheat.

I agree that the Poop Sheet was NOT a UNC newsletter, it was purportedly about the ACC as a whole -- although with Chansky -- who was Eddie Fogler's roommate when he attended UNC -- and Wuycik, a former UNC player, running the show, it never found any "poop" about UNC ... but was always quick to find snark about State and Duke. I once watched Norm Sloan go off on Chansky after a game in Reynolds.

Art is also famous as the sports editor who write an article before a Duke UNC game (I think it was the 1989 game in Cameron) claiming that UNC had no chance to beat Duke that day. John Feinstein later revealed that the column was written at the behest of Dean Smith, who then used the article as a motivational tool to fire up his team.

Believe me, it was no fun for Duke people with such a blatant UNC homer running the sports department of the Durham paper.

Tom B.
05-06-2015, 11:54 AM
Yikes! Duncan was the last minute substitute for an 8th rounder?

Yep. Hard as it may be to believe now, Duncan was pretty much an unknown at the time (fall of 1993, before his freshman season at Wake). He was just this lanky kid from the Virgin Islands whom nobody had ever heard of.

geraldsneighbor
05-11-2015, 10:24 AM
Per Adam Zagoria... Wonder if this means Maryland is not Duke's B1G/ACC opponent or if Duke simply didn't care to block Sheed for choosing the Twerps.

CDu
05-11-2015, 10:30 AM
Per Adam Zagoria... Wonder if this means Maryland is not Duke's B1G/ACC opponent or if Duke simply didn't care to block Sheed for choosing the Twerps.

When you dismiss a player from the program, I think you waive the right to block him from going to another school.

If Sulaimon goes to Maryland, that has to put them comfortably in the top-5 in the nation next year. With Diamond Stone, Melo Trimble, Robert Carter Jr, and Sulaimon (and some solid role players around them), that would be a dynamite group.

Ichabod Drain
05-11-2015, 10:31 AM
Per Adam Zagoria... Wonder if this means Maryland is not Duke's B1G/ACC opponent or if Duke simply didn't care to block Sheed for choosing the Twerps.

This may have been covered earlier in the thread but can Duke block him from going somewhere? He was dismissed from the team, he's not transferring because he decided to leave.

ETA: CDu just answered.

Bluedog
05-11-2015, 10:31 AM
Per Adam Zagoria... Wonder if this means Maryland is not Duke's B1G/ACC opponent or if Duke simply didn't care to block Sheed for choosing the Twerps.

Coach K is not typically one to block any schools for transfers. See Silent G to 'Cuse. He's not like Bo Ryan (http://www.foxsports.com/collegebasketball/story/wisconsin-badgers-bo-ryan-defends-decision-blocking-jarrod-uthoff-transfer-041912). ;) (Having said that, not sure if it's different for somebody who is expecting to graduate already and was dismissed from the team -- different situation than a transfer in the middle of an undergraduate career).

Edit: Cross-posted with the above two posts.

CDu
05-11-2015, 10:32 AM
Yep. Hard as it may be to believe now, Duncan was pretty much an unknown at the time (fall of 1993, before his freshman season at Wake). He was just this lanky kid from the Virgin Islands whom nobody had ever heard of.

And even after his first season, it wasn't like Duncan was a sure-fire NBA star. He averaged under 10 ppg as a freshman, which is impressive given that the pace of play was higher back then.

Duncan really took off as a sophomore and then just got better and better from there.

luvdahops
05-11-2015, 10:34 AM
Per Adam Zagoria... Wonder if this means Maryland is not Duke's B1G/ACC opponent or if Duke simply didn't care to block Sheed for choosing the Twerps.

I have a HS friend who is pretty plugged in to Maryland sports. He told me a week ago that Sheed to the Terps was 99% done. Turgeon apparently recruited him hard while at Texas A&M, and built a good relationship in the process. While he would likely be their 3rd or 4th option on offense, this does offer Sheed a good chance at starting for a team expected to be a national title contender. As we've all heard, he seems to have been very disappointed to miss out on the title run (though genuinely happy for his former teammates).

flyingdutchdevil
05-11-2015, 10:35 AM
When you dismiss a player from the program, I think you waive the right to block him from going to another school.

If Sulaimon goes to Maryland, that has to put them comfortably in the top-5 in the nation next year. With Diamond Stone, Melo Trimble, Robert Carter Jr, and Sulaimon (and some solid role players around them), that would be a dynamite group.

You're forgetting Jake Layman, who led the team in rebounding and will be a senior next year.

With Sulaimon, they have arguably the best starting 5 in the country.

CDu
05-11-2015, 10:40 AM
You're forgetting Jake Layman, who led the team in rebounding and will be a senior next year.

With Sulaimon, they have arguably the best starting 5 in the country.

Nah, I was lumping Layman in as a role player. Though I admit his FG% was better than I thought (47%). I don't think his rebounding (5.8 rpg last year) will be a relevant stat with the addition of big boys Stone and Carter Jr, and I think the addition of Sulaimon and Stone and Carter will make his scoring go down too.

But I agree, their starting 5 should be the best in the nation.

aimo
05-11-2015, 10:55 AM
Yep. Hard as it may be to believe now, Duncan was pretty much an unknown at the time (fall of 1993, before his freshman season at Wake). He was just this lanky kid from the Virgin Islands whom nobody had ever heard of.

The only reason Wake got him was b/c then-player Chris King played summer ball in the Virgin Islands and came back and told Dave Odom about him.

KenTankerous
05-11-2015, 11:12 AM
So bringing it back to basketball and DBR and all - Is Sheed a Dukie for life? He got dismissed from the team but not from school. He's finishing his degree but using the last of his eligibility elsewhere, like Greg Paulus, no? This community is strong and supports it's kids long after they leave Durham. How does this one play out?

Is he a Blue Devil forever?

Bluedog
05-11-2015, 11:16 AM
So bringing it back to basketball and DBR and all - Is Sheed a Dukie for life? He got dismissed from the team but not from school. He's finishing his degree but using the last of his eligibility elsewhere, like Greg Paulus, no? This community is strong and supports it's kids long after they leave Durham. How does this one play out?

Is he a Blue Devil forever?

I think getting dismissed paints him in a MUCH different light than a Greg Paulus (who didn't even play basketball anywhere except Duke). I'll still hope the best for Sheed personally, but I will not be cheering for him like I do for other 4 year players. And particularly won't be cheering for Maryland!

Tom B.
05-11-2015, 11:31 AM
So bringing it back to basketball and DBR and all - Is Sheed a Dukie for life? He got dismissed from the team but not from school. He's finishing his degree but using the last of his eligibility elsewhere, like Greg Paulus, no? This community is strong and supports it's kids long after they leave Durham. How does this one play out?

Is he a Blue Devil forever?

He's not really like Paulus. Paulus completed his basketball eligibility at Duke, then went somewhere else to play a different sport.

To be honest, I'm not sure how I feel about Rasheed. I certainly don't wish him ill, and I hope he finds happiness in whatever he does next. But I don't think I'll include him in the same group as all the other guys who played basketball only at Duke. He's more like the guys who've transferred from Duke to play elsewhere. They leave, you say, "Best wishes and good luck," and you might notice and maybe even smile a bit when they do well (e.g., I thought it was nice when Mike Chappell got to play on a national championship team at Michigan State) -- but that's about it.

NSDukeFan
05-11-2015, 12:02 PM
And even after his first season, it wasn't like Duncan was a sure-fire NBA star. He averaged under 10 ppg as a freshman, which is impressive given that the pace of play was higher back then.

Duncan really took off as a sophomore and then just got better and better from there.

He was no Joe Smith (who had a very solid NBA career, just not one of the top 10 basketball players of all-time careers).