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FerryFor50
04-21-2015, 12:30 PM
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/recruiting/basketball/mens/story/_/id/12734195/duke-blue-devils-land-derryck-thornton-play-pg-next-season

Verbal commit. Pending SAT scores/reclassification.

sagegrouse
04-21-2015, 12:34 PM
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/recruiting/basketball/mens/story/_/id/12734195/duke-blue-devils-land-derryck-thornton-play-pg-next-season

Verbal commit. Pending SAT scores/reclassification.

Welcome, indeed to Duke, Derryck Thornton. Go, Derryck -- go Duke!!

Sage
'You will be the unsung hero of many posts from the spelling constabulary'

dukebluesincebirth
04-21-2015, 12:36 PM
Great decision Derryck Welcome to the land of champions! Excited for next year! 😄😄

MCFinARL
04-21-2015, 12:36 PM
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/recruiting/basketball/mens/story/_/id/12734195/duke-blue-devils-land-derryck-thornton-play-pg-next-season

Verbal commit. Pending SAT scores/reclassification.

Awesome. Hope the academic part works out. Wonder if this--i.e., a good point guard--is the domino Duke needed for Brandon Ingram (I hope so).

dukelion
04-21-2015, 12:37 PM
Boom

Add Ingram and it's the #1 recuiting class by far.

Also, we're returning a solid core of players (especially on defense) so my expectations just went through the roof.

nmduke2001
04-21-2015, 12:41 PM
That escalated quickly! Welcome aboard.

Utley
04-21-2015, 12:43 PM
Such great news - hopefully two birds with one stone

Billy Dat
04-21-2015, 12:44 PM
The age of miracles
The age of sound
Well there's a (3rd K) Golden Age
Comin' round, comin' round, comin' round

Do not go gentle into that good night, Coach!

Adam Rowe ‏@BlueDevilLair
Strong work by @JonScheyer landing the commitment from Derryck Thornton.

Welcome, Derryck. Your game is sure to be appreciated, your persona/character is sure to be celebrated and your name is sure to be misspelled by the many academicians here on DBR!

MCFinARL
04-21-2015, 12:46 PM
The age of miracles
The age of sound
Well there's a (3rd K) Golden Age
Comin' round, comin' round, comin' round

Do not go gentle into that good night, Coach!

The K/Capel machine keeps on chugging!!!!!!!!!

Yes. Arguably keeping Capel on staff has been the most important development this recruiting season.

CDu
04-21-2015, 12:46 PM
Well that is a pleasant way to head into the Ingram in-home tonight!

The roster for next year just got a lot brighter!

A backcourt/wing rotation of Thornton, Allen, Kennard, and Jones with a frontcourt of Jefferson, Jeter, Obi, Plumlee and Vrankovic doesn't sound too bad. Nor does the possibility of adding another elite wing to the mix (fingers crossed!).

We'll look very different next year, but the coaches appear to be putting together quite the team even with the losses of four incredibly important players.

flyingdutchdevil
04-21-2015, 12:47 PM
This is a great get. I was in the camp who was a little suspect about the PG abilities of Kennard and Grayson.

Now, we have a true PG. I didn't know about him, so I used my wonderful Insider account to learn a little more. In conclusion, he is the opposite of Tyus Jones:

Strengths: really good scorer at the rim and in mid-range, can finish above the rim, really good athleticism and length for defense
Weaknesses: needs work beyond the arc, sometimes forgets to include teammates when on his scoring tears
Bottomline: tremendous upside

CameronBornAndBred
04-21-2015, 12:48 PM
'You will be the unsung hero of many posts from the spelling constabulary'
Derik, Derrick, Derick, Thorton, Thurston, Thonten....Ahhh..the possibilities are endless. Hell, someone will probably call him Greg for old time's sake.
Welcome to Duke. :)

(Hopefully the thread title is at least corrected soon.)

Billy Dat
04-21-2015, 12:51 PM
Yes. Arguably keeping Capel on staff has been the most important development this recruiting season.

MC - I edited my just earlier post with Airowe's tweet about Scheyer being the point man in the recruitment - wanted to give credit where it was due. Maybe Capel will close Ingram!!!!

FerryFor50
04-21-2015, 12:51 PM
Yes. Arguably keeping Capel on staff has been the most important development this recruiting season.

According to 247, Scheyer was the main recruiter on Thornton.

http://247sports.com/Player/Derryck-Thornton-21542

Olympic Fan
04-21-2015, 12:52 PM
Great news ... I think Duke HAD to get Thornton, Murray or Ennis to be a top 10-type team next year. I think Kennard/Matt Jones will be fine as part-time backup PGs, but I would have hated for that to be our only PG option.

Add Ingram Monday and the Devils are a legit national title contender -- again! -- going into next season. I'll take our roster (with Thornton and Ingram) over UNC's beteran -- but limited -- group or Virginia's haul. I like it a LOT better than what Kentucky has at the moment (although they will add something ... will it be enough?).

I'm sure Thornton's decision eliminates Murray as an option (he was an extreme longshot anyway).

I'd still like to add Ennis, just to add depth and a more mature option at the point, but this probably makes it less likely for a guy who wants to showcase his PG skills in his one final college season.

That's okay -- adding Ennis is now icing on the cake. Getting Thornton was the big thing.

Dev11
04-21-2015, 12:54 PM
Derik, Derrick, Derick, Thorton, Thurston, Thonten....Ahhh..the possibilities are endless. Hell, someone will probably call him Greg for old time's sake.
Welcome to Duke. :)

(Hopefully the thread title is at least corrected soon.)

As requested, with my own addendum.

devildeac
04-21-2015, 12:55 PM
Unbelievable. We already got the spelling wrong in the thread title:rolleyes:.

The spelling police are already on high alert for this ThorNton;). And Tyler was a whole heap easier to remember/spell than Derryck. :o


All that aside, this is fabulous news. One to go.

flyingdutchdevil
04-21-2015, 12:57 PM
Unbelievable. We already got the spelling wrong in the thread title:rolleyes:.

The spelling police are already on high alert for this ThorNton;). And Tyler was a whole heap easier to remember/spell than Derryck. :o


All that aside, this is fabulous news. One to go.

Yeah, not a good start. And Thornton is an easy one. 1) We had a Thornton for 4 of the 5 past years, 2) Thorton is not a popular name; Thornton is!

Derryck is a little more obscure in terms of spelling, so we should tread lightly on this spelling for the next few months.

OZ
04-21-2015, 12:58 PM
Well that is a pleasant way to head into the Ingram in-home tonight!


The timing could not have been better; and when it is Coach K, I don't believe in coincidences.

Duvall
04-21-2015, 12:58 PM
Unbelievable. We already got the spelling wrong in the thread title:rolleyes:.

The spelling police are already on high alert for this ThorNton;). And Tyler was a whole heap easier to remember/spell than Derryck. :o


We really need to have a zero tolerance policy this time. Spelling Derryck's name as "Thorton" should come with an automatic 24-hour ban from the boards. I am not a crackpot.

Mike Corey
04-21-2015, 12:59 PM
http://gifsec.com/wp-content/uploads/GIF/2014/03/Excited-GIF_1.gif

Huge get.

Keeping guys in natural positions, and away from unnatural ones, is a big win--allows us to remain more versatile, IMO, and much more dangerous.

The arc of the winter of K's career is remarkable.

I'd argue that the tipping point was Harrison Barnes' commitment to UNC. That lit a fire in Coach K in a very unique way, and in his players. Since then, Duke has gone 194-36 (84%!), with two national titles, and 9 All-Americans (Scheyer, Smith, Singler, Rivers, Curry, Plumlee, Parker, Cook, Okafor) and 9 NBA Draft picks (with three forthcoming).

gocanes0506
04-21-2015, 01:01 PM
Based on DT's comments, its sounds like the coaching staff wanted him over ennis. I doubt we bring in both.

CameronBornAndBred
04-21-2015, 01:02 PM
Based on DT's comments, its sounds like the coaching staff wanted him over ennis. I doubt we bring in both.
I agree. Also, with Thornton, there is the possibility that he will be around for more than one year.

(Although I like the idea of having a PG with college experience.)

Billy Dat
04-21-2015, 01:04 PM
I agree. Also, with Thornton, there is the possibility that he will be around for more than one year.

"Thornton is also close with 2016 Gladstone (N.J.) Gill St. Bernard’s guard Tyus Battle, who visited Duke over the weekend and is strongly considering the Blue Devils along with several other schools. Thornton and Battle have discussed playing together in college."

http://zagsblog.com/articles/derryck-thornton-to-duke/#more-133624

Ichabod Drain
04-21-2015, 01:07 PM
Evan Daniels just said a lot of credit goes to Scheyer who was the point man on Thornton. That is awesome to hear. Glad Coach Scheyer is making a big impact on recruiting early in his career.

CDu
04-21-2015, 01:07 PM
Huge get.

Keeping guys in natural positions, and away from unnatural ones, is a big win--allows us to remain more versatile, IMO, and much more dangerous.

The arc of the winter of K's career is remarkable.

I'd argue that the tipping point was Harrison Barnes' commitment to UNC. That lit a fire in Coach K in a very unique way, and in his players. Since then, Duke has gone 194-36 (84%!), with two national titles, and 9 All-Americans (Scheyer, Smith, Singler, Rivers, Curry, Plumlee, Parker, Cook, Okafor) and 9 NBA Draft picks (with three forthcoming).

Yeah, and it is not just the level of success, but HOW he has done it. He could very easily have rested on his laurels and just kept doing things the way he has always done them. His legacy as one of the greatest of all time was long since cemented. And after the 2010 title (won using the old approach), it could have been even easier for him to say "see, this works!" But instead, despite being in the latter years of his career, the old dog learned some fancy new tricks:
- Fully embraced the one-and-done era
- Embraced different concepts defensively (different approach to handling pick and rolls, going zone)

There is no way you can say that Duke is a "system" team now (not that you ever really should have, but still). Coach K has always adapted the offense to his players; now he is willing to adapt the defense as well, moreso than he ever has been before.

Really amazing. And if we're lucky enough to land Ingram, it appears that what looked like a potential down year may still be a top-10, elite team next year. The ball just keeps rolling.

Wander
04-21-2015, 01:08 PM
Much better than a 5th year grad transfer option - I'm not sure what the point of that would be. I'm in no way writing off next season, but I think the realistic idea is to have a really good team next year with an eye toward serious national title contention in 2017.

FerryFor50
04-21-2015, 01:11 PM
Unbelievable. We already got the spelling wrong in the thread title:rolleyes:.

The spelling police are already on high alert for this ThorNton;). And Tyler was a whole heap easier to remember/spell than Derryck. :o


All that aside, this is fabulous news. One to go.

Actually I double checked and it was right. Unless I made a typo. :)

Billy Dat
04-21-2015, 01:13 PM
I'd argue that the tipping point was Harrison Barnes' commitment to UNC. That lit a fire in Coach K in a very unique way, and in his players. Since then, Duke has gone 194-36 (84%!), with two national titles, and 9 All-Americans (Scheyer, Smith, Singler, Rivers, Curry, Plumlee, Parker, Cook, Okafor) and 9 NBA Draft picks (with three forthcoming).


Yeah, and it is not just the level of success, but HOW he has done it. He could very easily have rested on his laurels and just kept doing things the way he has always done them. His legacy as one of the greatest of all time was long since cemented. And after the 2010 title (won using the old approach), it could have been even easier for him to say "see, this works!" But instead, despite being in the latter years of his career, the old dog learned some fancy new tricks

Throw into this stew the rise of Kentucky and his coaching of Team USA. He got used to coaching the very best talent, saw what it took to get his hands on the very best talent, and hatched a plan to court one-and-dones in a way that he and the school would find reasonable. Amazing stuff. I know it's greedy to now want Ingram, but I can't help it. Feed the beast!!!

roywhite
04-21-2015, 01:16 PM
Yeah, and it is not just the level of success, but HOW he has done it. He could very easily have rested on his laurels and just kept doing things the way he has always done them. His legacy as one of the greatest of all time was long since cemented. And after the 2010 title (won using the old approach), it could have been even easier for him to say "see, this works!" But instead, despite being in the latter years of his career, the old dog learned some fancy new tricks:
- Fully embraced the one-and-done era
- Embraced different concepts defensively (different approach to handling pick and rolls, going zone)



Yes. Must say that I can't hear that term "rested on his laurels" now without thinking of Christian Laettner reclining on a hammock made of championship basketball nets. :D

Let's get another!

Duvall
04-21-2015, 01:17 PM
http://gifsec.com/wp-content/uploads/GIF/2014/03/Excited-GIF_1.gif

Huge get.

Keeping guys in natural positions, and away from unnatural ones, is a big win--allows us to remain more versatile, IMO, and much more dangerous.

The arc of the winter of K's career is remarkable.

I'd argue that the tipping point was Harrison Barnes' commitment to UNC. That lit a fire in Coach K in a very unique way, and in his players. Since then, Duke has gone 194-36 (84%!), with two national titles, and 9 All-Americans (Scheyer, Smith, Singler, Rivers, Curry, Plumlee, Parker, Cook, Okafor) and 9 NBA Draft picks (with three forthcoming).

Eh. The Barnes commitment came after Duke had already landed the most talented player in that HS class and assembled that year's national championship team. It *felt* like a low point to Duke fans, but the program had objectively been trending up for years.

Furniture
04-21-2015, 01:17 PM
Let's call him Derryck Stones then! Forget the ThorNton part.

Mike Corey
04-21-2015, 01:18 PM
Completely agreed, CDu.

The sustained success--Final Fours ranging from 1986 to 2015, and titles in the 1990s, 2000s, and 2010s--is as remarkable for the peaks as it is for the extraordinarily elevated valleys.

We are lucky, lucky, lucky fans.

Great get, Duke staff. And good luck tonight.

CameronBornAndBred
04-21-2015, 01:19 PM
Yes. Must say that I can't hear that term "rested on his laurels" now without thinking of Christian Laettner reclining on a hammock made of championship basketball nets. :D

Let's get another!
That time is obviously a LONG, LONG ways off....but!
Imagine if we WERE able to pull off a repeat next year. Two entirely different teams; that would be pretty amazing. (But we do have a coach that can do it.)

MCFinARL
04-21-2015, 01:19 PM
MC - I edited my just earlier post with Airowe's tweet about Scheyer being the point man in the recruitment - wanted to give credit where it was due. Maybe Capel will close Ingram!!!!


According to 247, Scheyer was the main recruiter on Thornton.

http://247sports.com/Player/Derryck-Thornton-21542

I stand corrected and am even more delighted to know that we have multiple excellent recruiters on the Duke staff.

CDu
04-21-2015, 01:19 PM
Yes. Must say that I can't hear that term "rested on his laurels" now without thinking of Christian Laettner reclining on a hammock made of championship basketball nets. :D

Let's get another!

I promise I wasn't thinking of that before I typed it. But as soon as I got to "laurels", that IMMEDIATELY came to my mind. :) One of my favorite (probably my favorite) of those NCAA Tourney commercials.

Oriole Way
04-21-2015, 01:20 PM
What an amazing time to be a Duke fan. We are all lucky and spoiled.

Great job by Coach K, Scheyer, and the rest of the staff. I feel confident this will help land Ingram. And we'll be a threat for another Final Four next season. Then Jayson Tatum and Harry Giles could be part of one of Coach K's best recruiting classes ever to set the stage for a dominant team in 2016-2017. Awesome.

Mike Corey
04-21-2015, 01:20 PM
Focus is rightly on Mr. Thornton right now. Huge, huge get for Duke!

MCFinARL
04-21-2015, 01:23 PM
Much better than a 5th year grad transfer option - I'm not sure what the point of that would be. I'm in no way writing off next season, but I think the realistic idea is to have a really good team next year with an eye toward serious national title contention in 2017.

Agree that this is better than a 5th year grad transfer option--but arguing hypothetically (now), I could have seen the point of that option without Thornton. In addition to making next year's team, presumably, somewhat more effective, it would have allowed Kennard and Allen to continue to play and develop in their natural roles, rather than taking on duties for which they were less suited. And it would not have interfered with recruiting a point for 2016, because Ennis would be gone then by definition.

So it could have been a sensible plan--but this is a better one.

BD80
04-21-2015, 01:23 PM
...

Derryck is a little more obscure in terms of spelling, so we should tread lightly on this spelling for the next few months.

Come on, its simple!

Its just like JJ's last name, just switch "d" for "r" and "r" for "d"


Right?


Welcome Derryck. Here are the keys to one marvelous machine. Just keep the pedal to the metal!

MarkD83
04-21-2015, 01:27 PM
Derik, Derrick, Derick, Thorton, Thurston, Thonten....Ahhh..the possibilities are endless. Hell, someone will probably call him Greg for old time's sake.
Welcome to Duke. :)

(Hopefully the thread title is at least corrected soon.)

Welcome to Duke Tyler Thor...sorry Derryck Thornton. :)

Troublemaker
04-21-2015, 01:27 PM
I'm sure some of you guys are already youtube-ing the heck out of our new point guard.

Be sure not to miss these two trickier-to-find videos of Derryck at USA Basketball camp where obviously he went up against other talented high-schoolers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVa1vGpqXH8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldiXj-m-mF0

There's a Tyus Jones cameo in one of them.

Welcome to Duke, Derryck Thornton!!!

CDu
04-21-2015, 01:28 PM
Agree that this is better than a 5th year grad transfer option--but arguing hypothetically (now), I could have seen the point of that option without Thornton. In addition to making next year's team, presumably, somewhat more effective, it would have allowed Kennard and Allen to continue to play and develop in their natural roles, rather than taking on duties for which they were less suited. And it would not have interfered with recruiting a point for 2016, because Ennis would be gone then by definition.

So it could have been a sensible plan--but this is a better one.

Agreed. I'd have had no problem with Duke bringing in Ennis for just one year. We're already heavily interested in Smith for PG for the 2016 class, so a one-year stopgap with a 5th-year senior certainly makes some sense.

I'm not heartbroken though that we're going with Thornton instead.

wsb3
04-21-2015, 01:28 PM
I just came in from yard work and I have been checking this board way too much..:)

I was giving myself a pep talk last night about worrying about the decisions of 18 year olds. We just won the NC. These self imposed pep talks rarely work.

Having said that this is welcome news indeed.

CDu
04-21-2015, 01:30 PM
I'm sure some of you guys are already youtube-ing the heck out of our new point guard.

Be sure not to miss these two trickier-to-find videos of Derryck at USA Basketball camp where obviously he went up against other talented high-schoolers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVa1vGpqXH8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldiXj-m-mF0

There's a Tyus Jones cameo in one of them.

Welcome to Duke, Derryck Thornton!!!

Just to reassure folks, those clips are from 2013. He has gotten bigger since then.

BD80
04-21-2015, 01:31 PM
Poor roy.

This news being personally delivered to Ingram by Coach K tonight is the biggest tragedy since ....

ol' roy's comment: "ah ..."

NSDukeFan
04-21-2015, 01:34 PM
We really need to have a zero tolerance policy this time. Spelling Derryck's name as "Thorton" should come with an automatic 24-hour ban from the boards. I am not a crackpot.

Not a fan of greybeard?

Oriole Way
04-21-2015, 01:35 PM
Poor roy.

This news being personally delivered to Ingram by Coach K tonight is the biggest tragedy since ....

ol' roy's comment: "ah ..."

Worse than a devastating earthquake and 82-50 combined.

DukeFanSince1990
04-21-2015, 01:48 PM
I shall call him........"DT".

MCFinARL
04-21-2015, 01:49 PM
Come on, its simple!

Its just like JJ's last name, just switch "d" for "r" and "r" for "d"


Right?


Welcome Derryck. Here are the keys to one marvelous machine. Just keep the pedal to the metal!

Yup. JJ Reddyck was one of my all time favorite Duke players!

Billy Dat
04-21-2015, 01:54 PM
Jonathan Givony ‏@DraftExpress 55m55 minutes ago
Derryck Thornton reclassified to 2015 and committed to Duke. Big news. Talented PG who hasn't seen much high-level coaching. Raw but gifted.

Fran Fraschilla ‏@franfraschilla 36m36 minutes ago
Good get for Duke with Derryck Thornton reclassifying. Spent lot of time with him at @StephenCurry30 Camp. Will benefit from K's coaching.

Hmmm...I have seen the Findlay coach, Andy Johnson, on the sidelines at many USA Basketball events...maybe they don't think he coached him long enough? Whatevs
http://www.findlayprep.com/coaching-staff.html

The twittersphere is also buzzing that we are due to land a 4 star QB today...Krzyzewski, Cutcliffe, Danowski...a very tough triumvirate to best.

nocilla
04-21-2015, 01:59 PM
Just curious but, is Thornton the one that was considering re-classifying and then red-shirting? If so, is that still on the table?

Seems unlikely to me but is it actually still possible?

Oriole Way
04-21-2015, 02:08 PM
Just curious but, is Thornton the one that was considering re-classifying and then red-shirting? If so, is that still on the table?

Seems unlikely to me but is it actually still possible?

Yes, he was considering the redshirt. No, he will not redshirt. He will be suiting up for us next season.

moonpie23
04-21-2015, 02:10 PM
Awesome!!!!!!!!! can't wait to get it all confirmed....


GO DUKE!!

DukeFanSince1990
04-21-2015, 02:11 PM
I'm sure some of you guys are already youtube-ing the heck out of our new point guard.

Be sure not to miss these two trickier-to-find videos of Derryck at USA Basketball camp where obviously he went up against other talented high-schoolers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVa1vGpqXH8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldiXj-m-mF0

There's a Tyus Jones cameo in one of them.

Welcome to Duke, Derryck Thornton!!!

He kind of reminds me of Chris Paul, minus the crotch punching.

Olympic Fan
04-21-2015, 02:12 PM
Poor roy.

This news being personally delivered to Ingram by Coach K tonight is the biggest tragedy since ....

ol' roy's comment: "ah ..."

I don't know. Visiting Idiot's Central, their reaction to the news is that this guarantees that they get Dennis Smith next year. Most of those morons are celebrating because, like, you know, nobody ever won anything by playing two point guards together.;)

Bob Green
04-21-2015, 02:13 PM
Point guard is the most important position on the court! This is fantastic news.

MChambers
04-21-2015, 02:13 PM
Unbelievable. We already got the spelling wrong in the thread title:rolleyes:.

The spelling police are already on high alert for this ThorNton;). And Tyler was a whole heap easier to remember/spell than Derryck. :o


All that aside, this is fabulous news. One to go.

That the thread title should be we look forward to misspelling your name! But this is great news, even if it taxes our spelling muscles!

BigZ
04-21-2015, 02:14 PM
Does he have to play two years for Duke before going pro?

Leelee902
04-21-2015, 02:17 PM
247 sports now has duke as the #1 class with Thornton as the 9th ranked recruit overall in 2015 :cool:

http://247sports.com/Season/2015-Basketball/CompositeRecruitRankings?InstitutionGroup=HighScho ol

stillcrazie
04-21-2015, 02:17 PM
I don't know. Visiting Idiot's Central, their reaction to the news is that this guarantees that they get Dennis Smith next year. Most of those morons are celebrating because, like, you know, nobody ever won anything by playing two point guards together.;)

This does seem like it would affect DS, Jr's decision. Both of these guys will want to be starting PGs. Thoughts?

Duvall
04-21-2015, 02:18 PM
Does he have to play two years for Duke before going pro?

No. He will eligible for the NBA Draft after the 2015-2016 season.

Edouble
04-21-2015, 02:23 PM
"Once Tyus declared, Duke came after me hard," Thornton said.

THANK YOU Tyus for not dragging it out. I was so happy that everyone declared, particularly Winslow and Jones, so quickly after the National Championship. With Winslow and Jones set for the pros, our staff could go all in on Ingram and Thornton. I'm sure it couldn't have helped us with Turner last season when Jabari took so long to make up his mind/announce.

Duke3517
04-21-2015, 02:24 PM
http://gifsec.com/wp-content/uploads/GIF/2014/03/Excited-GIF_1.gif

Huge get.

Keeping guys in natural positions, and away from unnatural ones, is a big win--allows us to remain more versatile, IMO, and much more dangerous.

The arc of the winter of K's career is remarkable.

I'd argue that the tipping point was Harrison Barnes' commitment to UNC. That lit a fire in Coach K in a very unique way, and in his players. Since then, Duke has gone 194-36 (84%!), with two national titles, and 9 All-Americans (Scheyer, Smith, Singler, Rivers, Curry, Plumlee, Parker, Cook, Okafor) and 9 NBA Draft picks (with three forthcoming).

Congrats to Duke and Mr. Thornton. Is he a two year player or is he eligible for the draft after next season?

Troublemaker
04-21-2015, 02:26 PM
This does seem like it would affect DS, Jr's decision. Both of these guys will want to be starting PGs. Thoughts?

From the horse's mouth himself (Smith Jr's blog for USA Today): http://usatodayhss.com/2015/dennis-smith-jr-adidas-dennis-smith-jr-kentucky-dennis-smith-jr-duke-nc-state-kansas-ohio-state-gauntlet

A lot of people ask what I’ll look at with my decision and there are a lot of different schools that are recruiting me that have point guards or may be recruiting point guards with me and I’m a competitor so my mindset is to always want to play against the best. I think I could play with another point guard too; it would have to be two dynamic guards though.

Like, at Duke, they won the national title with Quinn and Tyus and they could score the ball and do a bunch of different things so, as long as it’s a situation like that, I know it would work. I don’t mind it.

I played a two point guard system when I played with Seventh (Woods) so I know all about it.

stillcrazie
04-21-2015, 02:32 PM
From the horse's mouth himself (Smith Jr's blog for USA Today): http://usatodayhss.com/2015/dennis-smith-jr-adidas-dennis-smith-jr-kentucky-dennis-smith-jr-duke-nc-state-kansas-ohio-state-gauntlet

A lot of people ask what I’ll look at with my decision and there are a lot of different schools that are recruiting me that have point guards or may be recruiting point guards with me and I’m a competitor so my mindset is to always want to play against the best. I think I could play with another point guard too; it would have to be two dynamic guards though.

Like, at Duke, they won the national title with Quinn and Tyus and they could score the ball and do a bunch of different things so, as long as it’s a situation like that, I know it would work. I don’t mind it.

I played a two point guard system when I played with Seventh (Woods) so I know all about it.

THANKS!!! I am super excited about this.

Duvall
04-21-2015, 02:32 PM
Congrats to Duke and Mr. Thornton. Is he a two year player or is he eligible for the draft after next season?

Thornton will turn 19 during the calendar year of the 2016 draft, and will be one year removed from high school, so he will be eligible for the 2016 NBA Draft.

Duke95
04-21-2015, 02:33 PM
This does seem like it would affect DS, Jr's decision. Both of these guys will want to be starting PGs. Thoughts?

UNC will still have a junior Joel Berry and a senior Nate Britt. So Smith would already face a packed back court at UNC.

Duvall
04-21-2015, 02:34 PM
UNC will still have a junior Joel Berry and a senior Nate Britt. So Smith would already face a packed back court at UNC.

Britt probably shouldn't be a factor in any decision by Smith.

Troublemaker
04-21-2015, 02:35 PM
Congrats to Duke and Mr. Thornton. Is he a two year player or is he eligible for the draft after next season?

He's eligible to be 1-and-done but will probably stay at least 2 seasons. I didn't used to think so, but I've done a deeper dive into him recently, including watching the high school nationals where he didn't perform well. After watching that, I completely understood where the redshirt stuff was coming from.

His speed and dribbling are terrific but he's not as polished in his decision-making as Tyus was, and I suspect he won't be efficient from the college 3-pt line next season. Long-term, he's probably a better NBA prospect than Tyus because of superior physical skills, but his freshman season will have growing pains, which we really didn't experience with Tyus.

Duke95
04-21-2015, 02:38 PM
Britt probably shouldn't be a factor in any decision by Smith.

Normally, no, but Roy has exhibited a penchant for playing upperclassmen.

Given Thornton's reputation, I think he and Smith would be a far better fit, but then again, I may just be looking through my dark blue lenses.

Troublemaker
04-21-2015, 02:49 PM
Derryck's stats this past season: http://www.maxpreps.com/athlete/derryck-thornton-jr/IEAs8kxSEeS00gAmVebEWg/gendersport/basketball-stats.htm

Notice he only had a 1.72 assist/turnover ratio, made fewer than 1 three-pointer a game (shooting 34%), and was 71% from the FT line (decent, but not a very good shooter yet)

If you click on "Var 14-15" (upper right hand corner of that link), you can retrieve his game logs for the past season

stillcrazie
04-21-2015, 02:54 PM
He's eligible to be 1-and-done but will probably stay at least 2 seasons. I didn't used to think so, but I've done a deeper dive into him recently, including watching the high school nationals where he didn't perform well. After watching that, I completely understood where the redshirt stuff was coming from.

His speed and dribbling are terrific but he's not as polished in his decision-making as Tyus was, and I suspect he won't be efficient from the college 3-pt line next season. Long-term, he's probably a better NBA prospect than Tyus because of superior physical skills, but his freshman season will have growing pains, which we really didn't experience with Tyus.

Good opportunity to say once again how remarkable Tyus Jones's maturity was as a freshman this past year. I trusted him with the ball in his hands from day one. His demeanor in interviews was astonishingly mature. He was like an old man in an 18 year old body. I wish him the best AND I look forward to watching Thornton develop next year and beyond.

Troublemaker
04-21-2015, 02:56 PM
Here are boxscores for Derryck's two games at high school nationals (which I mentioned upthread)

Findlay vs Blanche Ely: http://www.dicksnationaltournament.com/results/Blanche-Findlay.pdf

Findlay vs Montverde: http://www.dicksnationaltournament.com/results/Findlay-Montverde.pdf

Don't get me wrong. I LOVE that he's going to be at Duke next season, and I'm going to enjoy watching his speed and ball-handling wizardry.

But expect growing pains. This is going to be more like Jason Williams' freshman season (still very good, of course, but also often mistake-prone and inefficient) rather than Tyus Jones' freshman season.

gam7
04-21-2015, 03:05 PM
As a Duke basketball fan, I am very happy to hear about this. However, there is something I find a bit ... not sure how to put it ... not "unsavory," but maybe "unfortunate that this is now a 'thing' in recruiting." The "thing" I am referring to is college coaches trying to persuade players to reclassify. Yes, I get it - for a lot of these players, they have been held back somewhere in the past for the purpose of being more physically mature against their competition from a basketball perspective, and they have the high school credits they need to graduate already. But, in my mind, there is something about this that feels a little bit like persuading a kid to leave high school early. (I know his particular high school - Findlay Prep - is not a traditional school, but my point still remains, and could apply to Jamal Murray as well.)

I obviously don't know what Duke has been saying to him over the past few weeks, and I don't know what Thornton's side was saying to Duke/Louisville behind closed doors. But, the quotes I saw made it seem like the reclass idea was really pushed by schools and not really something Thornton's camp sought to do. Obviously, no one forced Thornton to do what he's doing, and maybe I am old and a "recruiting purist," if there is such a thing. Something just feels a bit wrong with this Brave New Recruiting World.

EDIT: "maybe I am old" - this is not correct. I definitely am old.

devildeac
04-21-2015, 03:11 PM
Actually I double checked and it was right. Unless I made a typo. :)

As I prepared my post, it was Thorton. As I proofed my post, it was Thornton. I believe one of the mods posted he corrected it and added the second sentence to the thread title. I shoulda grabbed a screen shot but I'm not that quick/smart/good:o.

DBFAN
04-21-2015, 03:14 PM
As a Duke basketball fan, I am very happy to hear about this. However, there is something I find a bit ... not sure how to put it ... not "unsavory," but maybe "unfortunate that this is now a 'thing' in recruiting." The "thing" I am referring to is college coaches trying to persuade players to reclassify. Yes, I get it - for a lot of these players, they have been held back somewhere in the past for the purpose of being more physically mature against their competition from a basketball perspective, and they have the high school credits they need to graduate already. But, in my mind, there is something about this that feels a little bit like persuading a kid to leave high school early. (I know his particular high school - Findlay Prep - is not a traditional school, but my point still remains, and could apply to Jamal Murray as well.)


I obviously don't know what Duke has been saying to him over the past few weeks, and I don't know what Thornton's side was saying to Duke/Louisville behind closed doors. But, the quotes I saw made it seem like the reclass idea was really pushed by schools and not really something Thornton's camp sought to do. Obviously, no one forced Thornton to do what he's doing, and maybe I am old and a "recruiting purist," if there is such a thing. Something just feels a bit wrong with this Brave New Recruiting World.

EDIT: "maybe I am old" - this is not correct. I definitely am old.
I know what you are saying, because it does come across a little selfish that a team persuaded a kid to leave school early so they wouldn't have a hole in their lineup. The argument I would make was that he is close to the same age as the kids that are a year ahead of him. Not sure if he got held back a year at some point or if his parents just waited a year later to start him in kindergarten, but the fact that he is eligible to graduate tells me they were already planning on this happening, and maybe they too wanted to get him into college early. Just an opinion tho

FerryFor50
04-21-2015, 03:17 PM
As I prepared my post, it was Thorton. As I proofed my post, it was Thornton. I believe one of the mods posted he corrected it and added the second sentence to the thread title. I shoulda grabbed a screen shot but I'm not that quick/smart/good:o.

Then it was definitely a typo, as I checked and double checked.

Might have gotten hung up on the weird spelling of Derryck. :-P

devildeac
04-21-2015, 03:23 PM
Then it was definitely a typo, as I checked and double checked.

Might have gotten hung up on the weird spelling of Derryck. :-P

That must have been it as there in no "n" in Derryck either:p.

subzero02
04-21-2015, 03:25 PM
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/recruiting/basketball/mens/story/_/id/12734195/duke-blue-devils-land-derryck-thornton-play-pg-next-season

Verbal commit. Pending SAT scores/reclassification.

Wooooooohoooooo!!!! Best news of the off season thus far.

Class of '94
04-21-2015, 03:25 PM
I don't know. Visiting Idiot's Central, their reaction to the news is that this guarantees that they get Dennis Smith next year. Most of those morons are celebrating because, like, you know, nobody ever won anything by playing two point guards together.;)

They are idiots over there considering that Carolina will have 2 PGs (unless Britt or Berry leaves early for the NBA) on the roster by the time Dennis Smith is eligible to play; whereas, Duke would only have 1 PG on the roster (assuming that DT isn't a one and a done). I welcome enlightenment about this from anyone; but I just don't see how Carolina would be in a better situation than Duke to land Dennis Smith.

InSpades
04-21-2015, 03:28 PM
I know what you are saying, because it does come across a little selfish that a team persuaded a kid to leave school early so they wouldn't have a hole in their lineup.

This is like Kate Upton persuading me to be her boyfriend.

I'm guessing Duke didn't exactly have to twist his arm here.

"Hey, you want to come start at PG for the defending national champs and get coached by the best living basketball coach in the world? We'll throw in a top rate education and a chance to be on national TV for virtually every game you ever play!"

Um... where do I sign up?

Yes, yes. I know there's no guarantee he's going to start next year. But the spot is certainly there for the taking.

OZZIE4DUKE
04-21-2015, 03:41 PM
Welcome Derryck! How many times next year will we hear "there's an assist from Derryck to Jeter? :cool: Many, I hope! Let's Go DUKE!

DavidBenAkiva
04-21-2015, 03:54 PM
Great get for Duke! I am temperring my epextations a little based on the posts on this board. On the other hand, the addition of a "pure" point guard helps everyone on the team. This is a great addition for the team.

Plumlee and Jefferson, in particular, are really going to benefit from having someone that can pass them the ball. Jefferson has had some success with the pick-and-roll. Tyus would often shoot or create his own shot off of ball screens. If Thornton can create good looks for the front court, that will open things up a little for the perimeter shooters.

Speaking of shooters, having a pure point guard also helps Matt Jones. He's a proven to be a decent-to-good set shooter. Having another ballhandler also helps Allen take on the role of attacking scoring guard.

If only we didn't have to wait 7 months to see this team play!

lotusland
04-21-2015, 03:54 PM
Based on DT's comments, its sounds like the coaching staff wanted him over ennis. I doubt we bring in both.

Since we're all in on OAD point guards now I wouldn't mind having a 4-yr reserve PG recruit sort of like we have with Vrankovic in the post. If Ainge would accept a scholly under those terms I think it would make a lot of sense to have another ball handler in case of injury

Besides if he develops a shooting touch and pouty face like pop he'll be the most hated player since JJ.

lotusland
04-21-2015, 03:58 PM
If only we didn't have to wait 7 months to see this team play!

No overseas games in August this year ?

Duvall
04-21-2015, 04:02 PM
Since we're all in on OAD point guards now I wouldn't mind having a 4-yr reserve PG recruit sort of like we have with Vrankovic in the post. If Ainge would accept a scholly under those terms I think it would make a lot of sense to have another ball handler in case of injury

Besides if he develops a shooting touch and pouty face like pop he'll be the most hated player since JJ.

If Danny Ainge's kid became a rotation player at Duke he might become the most hated player of all time.

Duvall
04-21-2015, 04:03 PM
They are idiots over there considering that Carolina will have 2 PGs (unless Britt or Berry leaves early for the NBA) on the roster by the time Dennis Smith is eligible to play; whereas, Duke would only have 1 PG on the roster (assuming that DT isn't a one and a done). I welcome enlightenment about this from anyone; but I just don't see how Carolina would be in a better situation than Duke to land Dennis Smith.

To be fair, one of those point guards is Nate Britt, who isn't getting Dennis Smith's way.

MarkD83
04-21-2015, 04:23 PM
Good opportunity to say once again how remarkable Tyus Jones's maturity was as a freshman this past year. I trusted him with the ball in his hands from day one. His demeanor in interviews was astonishingly mature. He was like an old man in an 18 year old body. I wish him the best AND I look forward to watching Thornton develop next year and beyond.

I believe I read in a different thread that Tyus and Jah (among others) were hosting DT when he visited recently. That clearly means they are still engaged in the program and want to be part of Duke success going forward.

weezie
04-21-2015, 04:24 PM
Welcome Derryck! How many times next year will we hear "there's an assist from Derryck to Jeter? :cool: Many, I hope! Let's Go DUKE!

Maybe K will again invite the original Derek Jeter back to Cameron for another game. Imagine the Crazie meltdown!

Ichabod Drain
04-21-2015, 04:24 PM
To be fair, one of those point guards is Nate Britt, who isn't getting Dennis Smith's way.

Never underestimate the power or Roy and his upperclassmen.

BD80
04-21-2015, 04:38 PM
UNC will still have a junior Joel Berry and a senior Nate Britt. So Smith would already face a packed back court at UNC.

One or both might end up in the tread of the tires of ol' roy's bus by then.

DBFAN
04-21-2015, 04:46 PM
So since I'm left handed I tend to notice these things. We all know Kennard is a southpaw but from Vid I've seen Thornton appears to be as well. Man if Winslow was staying that would have been a nightmare for other teams to guard. Do we have any other left handed players.. I can't remember if Matt Jones is.. I may just be thinking of him because he has a unique shot..😎

rsvman
04-21-2015, 04:54 PM
Matt Jones is right-handed.


This is a great get for Coach K, Coach Scheyer, the team, and the university. Welcome, Mr. Thornton! We are very happy to have you.

DBFAN
04-21-2015, 04:57 PM
Ok thanks. Like I said was thinking about his shot and thought maybe for a sec he was.

NSDukeFan
04-21-2015, 05:04 PM
So since I'm left handed I tend to notice these things. We all know Kennard is a southpaw but from Vid I've seen Thornton appears to be as well. Man if Winslow was staying that would have been a nightmare for other teams to guard. Do we have any other left handed players.. I can't remember if Matt Jones is.. I may just be thinking of him because he has a unique shot..😎

I 'm not sure if I should be excited that coach K has finally shown that he can recruit left handed point guards, or if I should be disappointed that the staff has not been able to successfully recruit any right handed guards in over a year.

arnie
04-21-2015, 05:09 PM
To be fair, one of those point guards is Nate Britt, who isn't getting Dennis Smith's way.

And Roy could choose not to give Britt a scholarship the year Smith comes in. Ole Roy will make room for Smith if needed.

BD80
04-21-2015, 05:09 PM
I 'm not sure if I should be excited that coach K has finally shown that he can recruit left handed point guards, or if I should be disappointed that the staff has not been able to successfully recruit any right handed guards in over a year.

Derryck was a righty, the staff has asked him to reclassify as a lefty.

gumbomoop
04-21-2015, 05:12 PM
We all know Kennard is a southpaw....

He's fully amphibious.


Luke is ambidextrous. He was the offensive football player of the year [Jr year, 2013] in his division as a right-handed QB.

Luke does shoot his 3-bombs, jumpers, FTs with left hand, but going to the basket he uses both hands equally well.

DBFAN
04-21-2015, 05:18 PM
He's fully amphibious.



Luke does shoot his 3-bombs, jumpers, FTs with left hand, but going to the basket he uses both hands equally well.

My bad I just assumed from the videos of him shooting that he was left handed

trinity92
04-21-2015, 05:52 PM
My bad I just assumed from the videos of him shooting that he was left handed

I assumed the same thing. Watched some footage of him from last year and he was very predictable in driving to the rim going left, but pulling up for a jumper when he went right. The more recent videos show that he can, in fact, go to the right and get to the rim and use his right hand, but I think it's a more recent development in his game. Usual caveat applies that I've not watched a TON of tape on DT.

Also, from reading this entire thread to date, I have to caution my fellow fans against getting ahead of ourselves. Of course we're excited about this commitment, especially since it seems to heighten our chances at getting Ingram. HOWEVER (and I'm sorry for calling out any poster) please let's not say anything about possible back to back championships anywhere in this, or any other recruiting thread. It just smacks of Kentucky fans who seem to talk about going undefeated every single year once they lock up the #1 recruiting class. It's part of what makes that fan base so despicable. If we are lucky enough to start having that kind of recruiting success, let's act like we've been there before and not act as if a top recruiting class guarantees us anything but that.

Having said that, I am pretty close to GGLC over this news and looking forward to what K can do with these horses.

Go Duke!

-jk
04-21-2015, 08:00 PM
As a Duke basketball fan, I am very happy to hear about this. However, there is something I find a bit ... not sure how to put it ... not "unsavory," but maybe "unfortunate that this is now a 'thing' in recruiting." The "thing" I am referring to is college coaches trying to persuade players to reclassify. Yes, I get it - for a lot of these players, they have been held back somewhere in the past for the purpose of being more physically mature against their competition from a basketball perspective, and they have the high school credits they need to graduate already. But, in my mind, there is something about this that feels a little bit like persuading a kid to leave high school early. (I know his particular high school - Findlay Prep - is not a traditional school, but my point still remains, and could apply to Jamal Murray as well.)

I obviously don't know what Duke has been saying to him over the past few weeks, and I don't know what Thornton's side was saying to Duke/Louisville behind closed doors. But, the quotes I saw made it seem like the reclass idea was really pushed by schools and not really something Thornton's camp sought to do. Obviously, no one forced Thornton to do what he's doing, and maybe I am old and a "recruiting purist," if there is such a thing. Something just feels a bit wrong with this Brave New Recruiting World.

EDIT: "maybe I am old" - this is not correct. I definitely am old.

IIRC, G-man was 20 when he graduated from Duke; Hansbrough was 20 his freshman year at unc. It's the game du jour, and both sides play. Parents maximize their kids' opportunities; coaches cover their positions. Do you really think Thornton and his parents aren't happy for him to be a key figure at Duke next year? They played the reclassify game, and won a jackpot. Duke did, too. Win-win!

-jk

OldPhiKap
04-21-2015, 08:17 PM
Welcome DT!

TruBlu
04-21-2015, 08:48 PM
Awesome. Hope the academic part works out. Wonder if this--i.e., a good point guard--is the domino Duke needed for Brandon Ingram (I hope so).

Derryck and the Dominoes.

If this was intentional, way to go. If this was not intentional, still way to go.

Welcome to Duke, Derryck!

SoCalDukeFan
04-21-2015, 09:35 PM
I am very very pleased that Derrick Thornton will be a Blue Devil next year but wonder just how one just decides to leave high school a year early.

Are there not classes that he will miss such as 12th grade English that are probably required at Duke and most other colleges? Has he taken all required courses? Has he taken the SATs? Can anyone do this - Hey high school is dumb I'll just go from 11th grade to college?

I know others have done it and just wonder about the process.

Thanks
SoCal

Newton_14
04-21-2015, 09:46 PM
I am very very pleased that Derrick Thornton will be a Blue Devil next year but wonder just how one just decides to leave high school a year early.

Are there not classes that he will miss such as 12th grade English that are probably required at Duke and most other colleges? Has he taken all required courses? Has he taken the SATs? Can anyone do this - Hey high school is dumb I'll just go from 11th grade to college?

I know others have done it and just wonder about the process.

Thanks
SoCal
This is his 4th year in High School, which is becoming more and more common. He likely only needs 1 or 2 credits. So he really isn't skipping anything class wise.

gam7
04-21-2015, 10:45 PM
IIRC, G-man was 20 when he graduated from Duke; Hansbrough was 20 his freshman year at unc. It's the game du jour, and both sides play. Parents maximize their kids' opportunities; coaches cover their positions. Do you really think Thornton and his parents aren't happy for him to be a key figure at Duke next year? They played the reclassify game, and won a jackpot. Duke did, too. Win-win!

-jk

First, I will reiterate that I am thrilled about this as a Duke fan. I really am. And, I know both sides play - the mere fact that he is at Findlay is some evidence of that. My issue is that based on the quotes I saw from the Thornton camp, he wasn't really looking to do this, and was only lukewarm about the idea. If I recall, there was even talk of possibly reclassifying, but then preferring to redshirt. (As an aside, if true, this sounds to me like a family that thinks his game may not be quite ready for the college level, which is a bit of a concern.) But setting that aside, Louisville, and then later, Duke, actively tried to persuade him to make the jump, presumably not to redshirt for a year. And thankfully, Duke succeeded.

I guess what bothers me is that for all practical purposes, you are asking a kid to (a) forego his senior year of high school and all that goes with it (which, for a kid who loves high school, is no small ask) to come to Duke early; or (b) not come to Duke at all - I don't think a kid could realistically show up at Duke a year later after having turned them down in a time of need. Duke forced a decision, and it worked out here. Do I really blame Duke? No. They are playing by the same rules imposed on all of college basketball. But, persuading/negotiation over reclassification of high school students feels to me like asking a kid to leave high school early and therefore bothers me.

I know kids make life sacrifices all the time for sports - promising young Americans move abroad to play soccer for professional clubs; young ballet dancers join dance troupes and get educated in non-traditional ways, etc. This one just felt like the Thorntons weren't totally sold on reclassification, but when faced with a difficult decision of Duke now or never, they decided to make that jump.

I'd be curious to hear what you think of the following hypothetical: East Cupcake State University approaches a player verbally committed to ECSU, telling him that (x) ECSU would strongly prefer for him to stay in high school for an extra year and (y) it is in ECSU's and that kid's interest to do so (and, oh by the way, there is another highly rated recruit who is likely to come to ECSU that following year if he does in fact defer his matriculation). Granted, there are a ton of reasons why this would never happen, but would it make you feel uncomfortable for ECSU to try to persuade a kid to do that?

jipops
04-21-2015, 10:54 PM
I assumed the same thing. Watched some footage of him from last year and he was very predictable in driving to the rim going left, but pulling up for a jumper when he went right. The more recent videos show that he can, in fact, go to the right and get to the rim and use his right hand, but I think it's a more recent development in his game. Usual caveat applies that I've not watched a TON of tape on DT.

Also, from reading this entire thread to date, I have to caution my fellow fans against getting ahead of ourselves. Of course we're excited about this commitment, especially since it seems to heighten our chances at getting Ingram. HOWEVER (and I'm sorry for calling out any poster) please let's not say anything about possible back to back championships anywhere in this, or any other recruiting thread. It just smacks of Kentucky fans who seem to talk about going undefeated every single year once they lock up the #1 recruiting class. It's part of what makes that fan base so despicable. If we are lucky enough to start having that kind of recruiting success, let's act like we've been there before and not act as if a top recruiting class guarantees us anything but that.

Having said that, I am pretty close to GGLC over this news and looking forward to what K can do with these horses.

Go Duke!

I totally agree with your words of caution. This past season was truly special and everything just clicked at the perfect time. We can't just expect to bring in more talented newcomers and replicate everything. Every group is different and K more than anyone seems to understand this.

We'll be very talented, young, and flawed. There will be hi's as surely as there will be low's. And I think we'll be a blast to watch.

jipops
04-21-2015, 10:59 PM
IIRC, G-man was 20 when he graduated from Duke; Hansbrough was 20 his freshman year at unc. It's the game du jour, and both sides play. Parents maximize their kids' opportunities; coaches cover their positions. Do you really think Thornton and his parents aren't happy for him to be a key figure at Duke next year? They played the reclassify game, and won a jackpot. Duke did, too. Win-win!

-jk

Brad Daughtery was 16 when starting his freshman year at unc.

nyesq83
04-21-2015, 10:59 PM
Welcome to Duke, Derryck.

Let the fun continue!

With his signing, I have a feeling the haters may begin to rise again.

El_Diablo
04-21-2015, 11:33 PM
I guess what bothers me is that for all practical purposes, you are asking a kid to (a) forego his senior year of high school and all that goes with it (which, for a kid who loves high school, is no small ask) to come to Duke early; or (b) not come to Duke at all - I don't think a kid could realistically show up at Duke a year later after having turned them down in a time of need. Duke forced a decision, and it worked out here. Do I really blame Duke? No. They are playing by the same rules imposed on all of college basketball. But, persuading/negotiation over reclassification of high school students feels to me like asking a kid to leave high school early and therefore bothers me.

He is at a basketball factory and initially reclassified from 2015 to 2016 for basketball purposes...the only reason he has a fifth year of high school eligibility to forego in the first place. Reclassifying back to 2015 seems to be a no-brainer if the right opportunity came along. Sure, he misses out on prom and...um...(feel free to name something else "that goes with it" that he is actually missing out on that he can't have in college, because I cannot think of anything). But he gets the opportunity to become a high-profile starting point guard for the defending national champions and play every game on national TV for the greatest coach in the sport at a top-ten academic school that can contend for a title again. Thornton specifically said he had been considering reclassifying to 2015 for months, so he clearly was already was already receptive to foregoing another year in high school. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt in trusting that he made the right choice for himself and refuse to believe the IC spin that Coach K coerced him in any sense.

ncexnyc
04-21-2015, 11:46 PM
So where was all the talk about D.T. redshirting his first year coming from?

Also today's announcement is casting a very dark shadow over the folks at IC. Some are finally understanding the ramifications the investigations have had on recruiting. Others are connecting the dots and believe Duke having a real PG will convince Ingram to become a Blue Devil.

I'm more in the camp of "It ain't over till the fat lady sings" and I won't believe anything I see until I turn on DBR next week and see the, "Welcome to Duke, Brandon Ingram" thread.

InSpades
04-22-2015, 12:34 AM
First, I will reiterate that I am thrilled about this as a Duke fan. I really am. And, I know both sides play - the mere fact that he is at Findlay is some evidence of that. My issue is that based on the quotes I saw from the Thornton camp, he wasn't really looking to do this, and was only lukewarm about the idea. If I recall, there was even talk of possibly reclassifying, but then preferring to redshirt. (As an aside, if true, this sounds to me like a family that thinks his game may not be quite ready for the college level, which is a bit of a concern.) But setting that aside, Louisville, and then later, Duke, actively tried to persuade him to make the jump, presumably not to redshirt for a year. And thankfully, Duke succeeded.

I guess what bothers me is that for all practical purposes, you are asking a kid to (a) forego his senior year of high school and all that goes with it (which, for a kid who loves high school, is no small ask) to come to Duke early; or (b) not come to Duke at all - I don't think a kid could realistically show up at Duke a year later after having turned them down in a time of need. Duke forced a decision, and it worked out here. Do I really blame Duke? No. They are playing by the same rules imposed on all of college basketball. But, persuading/negotiation over reclassification of high school students feels to me like asking a kid to leave high school early and therefore bothers me.

I know kids make life sacrifices all the time for sports - promising young Americans move abroad to play soccer for professional clubs; young ballet dancers join dance troupes and get educated in non-traditional ways, etc. This one just felt like the Thorntons weren't totally sold on reclassification, but when faced with a difficult decision of Duke now or never, they decided to make that jump.

I'd be curious to hear what you think of the following hypothetical: East Cupcake State University approaches a player verbally committed to ECSU, telling him that (x) ECSU would strongly prefer for him to stay in high school for an extra year and (y) it is in ECSU's and that kid's interest to do so (and, oh by the way, there is another highly rated recruit who is likely to come to ECSU that following year if he does in fact defer his matriculation). Granted, there are a ton of reasons why this would never happen, but would it make you feel uncomfortable for ECSU to try to persuade a kid to do that?

No offense but... there is a *TON* of speculation in your post. I could care less what people in "the Thornton camp" said to anyone. All I care about is what Derryck Thornton thought. Do you really think K went to him and said "come to Duke now or don't come at all"? I mean, realistically that might be true. It could be the case that next year Duke has a better PG recruit and isn't as interested in Thornton but that's not Duke's fault. It's not like he had to choose between coming to Duke this year and never playing D1 college ball. For all we know the "persuasion" that was done was K told him that he'd love to have him next year and he'd have a very good chance to start. To speculate that something unseemly happened is just wrong IMO. If Thornton really wanted to play out another year of HS ball then he could have done that and likely would have many schools banging down his door (possibly including Duke). Instead he chose to come to Duke a year early. Great for him.

gam7
04-22-2015, 12:55 AM
Just want you all to know that I've thought it through and I've come to terms with the reclassification issue in recruiting.

But I have to respond to this.


He is at a basketball factory and initially reclassified from 2015 to 2016 for basketball purposes...the only reason he has a fifth year of high school eligibility to forego in the first place. Reclassifying back to 2015 seems to be a no-brainer if the right opportunity came along.

Not sure when he reclassified from 2015 to 2016, but I totally agree that Thornton's "high school" makes me not as concerned about his case in particular (though his family's quotes did not strike me as someone really looking to pursue that option). It doesn't take a huge stretch though to come up with a hypothetical that might be a harder call. Instead of Thornton and Findlay, insert the name "Luke Kennard" and "Franklin High School."


Sure, he misses out on prom and...um...(feel free to name something else "that goes with it" that he is actually missing out on that he can't have in college, because I cannot think of anything).

Really? Nothing else redeeming about senior year of high school? How about spending one last year with (probably) the first universe of friends he's ever known? That's a start.


But he gets the opportunity to become a high-profile starting point guard for the defending national champions and play every game on national TV for the greatest coach in the sport at a top-ten academic school that can contend for a title again.

Obviously, playing for Duke is an incredible opportunity. But, he gets this opportunity (or a similar one at another extremely high profile school with a hall of fame coach) whether he starts college this year or next year.


Thornton specifically said he had been considering reclassifying to 2015 for months, so he clearly was already was already receptive to foregoing another year in high school.

It was widely reported that Louisville had been trying to convince him to reclassify because they were going to have an opening this season. Unless you have seen something I haven't, this is why he was considering it months ago.


I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt in trusting that he made the right choice for himself and refuse to believe the IC spin that Coach K coerced him in any sense.

Well, I said nothing about coercion and don't read IC, but my guess is that refusing to believe its spin is probably a good policy.

Now, let's get Ingram. Duke Basketball never stops.

gam7
04-22-2015, 01:15 AM
No offense but... there is a *TON* of speculation in your post. I could care less what people in "the Thornton camp" said to anyone. All I care about is what Derryck Thornton thought.


No offense taken at all. I don't have any insight into what Derryck Thornton thought other than what he and his family have been quoted as saying.



Do you really think K went to him and said "come to Duke now or don't come at all"?

Definitely not. If I may speculate a bit more in response to this: I suspect K said something along the lines of "it's your decision, but you could really help us now if you were to come to Duke now, and it would benefit both of us." I was saying that if he were to say "no, I'll wait a year," I think it would be a bit tough as a practical matter to then come to Duke the following year. Maybe not, but possibly.


I could be the case that next year Duke has a better PG recruit and isn't as interested in Thornton but that's not Duke's fault. It's not like he had to choose between coming to Duke this year and never playing D1 college ball. For all we know the "persuasion" that was done was K told him that he'd love to have him next year and he'd have a very good chance to start. To speculate that something unseemly happened is just wrong IMO.

This is absolutely right. He had other options for sure. He did not have to come to Duke early and would have had other amazing options. Basically, it's first world problems for him. I definitely do not think Coach K did anything unseemly. I think El Diablo suggested I said Coach K coerced him. If I wrote anything suggesting that something unethical happened, that was not my intent and is not my belief.

-bdbd
04-22-2015, 02:00 AM
No offense taken at all. I don't have any insight into what Derryck Thornton thought other than what he and his family have been quoted as saying.




Definitely not. If I may speculate a bit more in response to this: I suspect K said something along the lines of "it's your decision, but you could really help us now if you were to come to Duke now, and it would benefit both of us." I was saying that if he were to say "no, I'll wait a year," I think it would be a bit tough as a practical matter to then come to Duke the following year. Maybe not, but possibly.



This is absolutely right. He had other options for sure. He did not have to come to Duke early and would have had other amazing options. Basically, it's first world problems for him. I definitely do not think Coach K did anything unseemly. I think El Diablo suggested I said Coach K coerced him. If I wrote anything suggesting that something unethical happened, that was not my intent and is not my belief.

--------------

Just to add a few factoids to this discussion, in one of his comments today, young Mr. Thornton said that the Duke coaches told him Monday that they "could have gone the post-grad transfer route," but that he (Thornton) was their first preference (for next season at PG). So if you believe what he and, apparently, the Duke coaches are saying, then Duke's back-up plan was to bring in Ennis or someone similar, to hold down the fort for one year until Thornton arrived.

Also, following recruiting some, it has beed rumored for a while that Duke was a solid leader for Thornton. And it seemed that, although we were recruiting another top-flight PG as well in 2016, Duke had settled on Derryck as their first choice. So, if you put both of the above factoids together, I really don't think that Duke would have been planning to go anywhere but back to DT IF he had said that he wanted to stay with the 2016 class.

Since DT had been talking in the public forum about possibly reclassifying to 2015 IF the right opportunity presented itself, it seems to me pretty obvious that he and his family/supporters were also "playing the reclassify game." In fact, if you do believe that he was a strong Duke lean anyway, then had Tyus stayed another year, DT certainly would have stayed with the 2016 class, waiting until he was assured of being THE MAN at point for Duke a starting with the 2016-17 season. It seems pretty clear that all sides were looking out for their best interests. Nicely, those interests aligned well for DT and Duke...

JPtheGame
04-22-2015, 02:19 AM
The immediate question is what does this do for Ingram?
The next (and potentially more impactful) question is, what does this do to the proposed Tatum/Giles/Smith jr package deal?
Im certain that all contingencies have been considered by the Duke staff and I know Duke has an excellent history of playing two pgs, but its still a thought.

lotusland
04-22-2015, 06:50 AM
Thornton reclassifying this year seems similar to Dawkins in 2009 when Duke needed a guard after G declared and EWill transfered. Why all the angst this time?

MarkD83
04-22-2015, 07:20 AM
Thornton reclassifying this year seems similar to Dawkins in 2009 when Duke needed a guard after G declared and EWill transfered. Why all the angst this time?

All Duke needs is a transfer to join the program and this will be similar to the 2009-10 season. Hummmm....I kinda like that thought.

OldPhiKap
04-22-2015, 07:28 AM
Thornton reclassifying this year seems similar to Dawkins in 2009 when Duke needed a guard after G declared and EWill transfered. Why all the angst this time?

Without angst, the Internet dies.

But yeah. DT is in his fourth year of high school as I understand, and was planning to take a fifth year (essentially redshirt in high school).

moonpie23
04-22-2015, 08:08 AM
Without angst, the Internet dies.

.

well, and cats...

NM Duke Fan
04-22-2015, 08:29 AM
This is his 4th year in High School, which is becoming more and more common. He likely only needs 1 or 2 credits. So he really isn't skipping anything class wise.

Even way back in 1976 I only had to take 2 classes my senior year to graduate, so I worked at a military base several hours a day each PM. I wish that I had had the opportunity to reclassify way back then and just get on with my college and other training. As it was, I still was only 17 when I started college. Missing the prom and such is very over-rated for a lot of kids who have more urgent ambitions. Good for him, and I think it is a wise decision, taking into account what now awaits him at Duke!

flyingdutchdevil
04-22-2015, 10:34 AM
This is my favorite play that I've seen regarding Thornton: http://247sports.com/Bolt/Derryck-Thornton-breaks-Ben-Simmons-ankles-with-crossover-36589135

This is against Ben Simmons, by far and away the best recruit in the 2015 class.

Derryk misses the shot, but everything else is beautiful. That is a man's move, not a move an 18-year old makes. Thornton has the best combination of speed, size, athleticism, and agility that we've seen from a Duke PG since Kyrie. But Thornton is nowhere near the polished product that Kyrie was coming in.

I'm sure Thornton's talent will get fans excited, but I'm also looking forward to seeing him develop as a player.

El_Diablo
04-22-2015, 10:39 AM
Really? Nothing else redeeming about senior year of high school? How about spending one last year with (probably) the first universe of friends he's ever known? That's a start.

Well, I didn't say there was nothing else redeeming about senior year of high school. I was quite fond of mine. But I was even more fond of the years that followed. More to the point, I was saying he would not really be missing out on things that he couldn't do in college, and I stand by that. Okay, maybe he will get homesick. And yes, the friends will be different, but he will make new friends. And he can always text and skype and visit his old friends. If it makes you feel any better about the situation, he is definitely NOT leaving the first universe of friends he's ever known; he transferred high schools (moving from California to Nevada) to attend Findlay Prep, so he already said goodbye to his first universe of friends years ago.


Well, I said nothing about coercion and don't read IC, but my guess is that refusing to believe its spin is probably a good policy.

No, you didn't explicitly say that Coach K coerced him, but if he did in fact present the choice to Derryck as "come to Duke early" or "not come to Duke at all" then that would be putting pressure on him with a threat or implied threat of losing his scholarship offer altogether (i.e., the definition of coercion). Again, I refuse to believe that Coach K would do that to him in order to make him reclassify when he wasn't otherwise willing to do so, especially when there is absolutely no evidence of it. I don't even know how such a threat would be effective in this type of situation (where the player is so good that can essentially select any school in the country to play for). Maybe I read too much into your post, though, and that is not what you meant.


Now, let's get Ingram.

I am 100% on board with you there! :cool:

English
04-22-2015, 10:43 AM
I'd be curious to hear what you think of the following hypothetical: East Cupcake State University approaches a player verbally committed to ECSU, telling him that (x) ECSU would strongly prefer for him to stay in high school for an extra year and (y) it is in ECSU's and that kid's interest to do so (and, oh by the way, there is another highly rated recruit who is likely to come to ECSU that following year if he does in fact defer his matriculation). Granted, there are a ton of reasons why this would never happen, but would it make you feel uncomfortable for ECSU to try to persuade a kid to do that?

This happens all the time, particularly in college football recruiting but also in hoops--it's called a post-grad year after completing high school. It typically allows rising college sports talent an additional year to mature and develop. I'll leave you to your own opinions on the matter, but mine are that, if it helps the player and his best interests, I see nothing inherently damning about the practice.

roywhite
04-22-2015, 10:44 AM
This is my favorite play that I've seen regarding Thornton: http://247sports.com/Bolt/Derryck-Thornton-breaks-Ben-Simmons-ankles-with-crossover-36589135

This is against Ben Simmons, by far and away the best recruit in the 2015 class.

Derryk misses the shot, but everything else is beautiful. That is a man's move, not a move an 18-year old makes. Thornton has the best combination of speed, size, athleticism, and agility that we've seen from a Duke PG since Kyrie. But Thornton is nowhere near the polished product that Kyrie was coming in.

I'm sure Thornton's talent will get fans excited, but I'm also looking forward to seeing him develop as a player.

Thanks for posting the link, and I agree with your assessment. Thornton also looks like he could be an excellent defender.

Thornton has awfully big shoes to fill with the departure of Tyus Jones. Tyus was such a smart player, mature beyond his years. And his ability in the clutch was other-worldly.

I'm sure Thornton will be a very good player, but we need to be patient as he develops and as this hugely new mix of players develops next season.

Henderson
04-22-2015, 10:56 AM
I was saying he would not really be missing out on things that he couldn't do in college, and I stand by that.


So right. If a guy is looking for an authentic school experience (and all that entails), he's better off as a freshman in college than a fifth year student at Findlay Prep.

Findlay Prep is about 5 miles from my house, and let me assure you: It's not the idyllic high school people hold in their memories. Forget Happy Days, Dobie Gillis, Leave it to Beaver, and your high school courting of Mary Lou's prom potential. Findlay is not Franklin High School in Ohio. It's just a place to play ball and get NCAA eligible. The NCAA restricted recruiting there because of the lack of separation between academics and athletics. It was established just a few years ago by a local car dealer with a passion for basketball. And it's not even Thornton's home; his family lives in California where he grew up. I'm sure he's made some friends at Findlay, but folks should check out the Findlay website before mourning the loss of Thornton's HS paradise. www.findlayprep.com

NM Duke Fan
04-22-2015, 11:22 AM
If a guy is looking for an authentic school experience (and all that entails), he's better off as a freshman in college than a fifth year student at Findlay Prep.



Excellent post! It sounds like a different type of "prep school" altogether!

CameronBornAndBred
04-22-2015, 11:29 AM
More on Findlay. (From a 2011 article)

The players on the Findlay Prep basketball team are the school's only students and they take classes at Henderson International School, a preschool through 12th grade, fully-accredited private school across the street from the players' home.
The Findlay players live in a five-bedroom, four-bathroom house, purchased for $425,000 by the Findlay Prep founder, Cliff Findlay.

http://www.masslive.com/hoophallclassic/index.ssf/2011/01/findlay_prep.html

Troublemaker
04-22-2015, 11:47 AM
Jayson Tatum comments on Derryck Thornton: http://zagsblog.com/articles/jayson-tatum-talks-in-home-visits-with-uk-unc-and-st-louis/

As for Duke, Tatum was impressed with the addition Tuesday of Findlay Prep point guard Derryck Thornton, who reclassed to 2015 and committed to the national champs.

“Derryck is a great player,” Tatum said. “He will help out Duke a lot. He’s a great point guard, he’s a great passer, he’s a great defender. He’s a great basketball player.”

johnb
04-22-2015, 12:08 PM
Derryck is a 5 star recruit who qualifies academically for Duke. Does any Duke fan really think that K & Co showed up at the kid's house and threatened him with a "take this offer or it will evaporate like the dew of a Carolina morning." IC can say such things, but they are about to drown in their own backwash.

We don't have any trouble whatsoever with Derryck reclassifying to further his basketball career at Duke, though there might be just a few of us who think our freshmen shouldn't do the same thing by going early to the NBA.

By the way, I'm one of them. Duke>>Findlay Prep. And he has the ball handed to him. And he's good enough to take the ball and run with it. I'm thrilled. My hunch is that Findlay will have trouble finding a strong replacement for him, but I don't care all that much. And my hunch is that the Knicks are thinking the same thing about potentially getting Jah to join them.

Troublemaker
04-22-2015, 12:21 PM
Hey, Derryck has made Chad Ford's Top 100 for the 2016 draft (ESPN Insider): http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/results/top100/_/year/2016

Some rankings of interest:

#5 Brandon Ingram
#17 Grayson Allen
#23 Derryck Thornton
#36 Chase Jeter

(I wouldn't take these way-too-early rankings seriously, btw. Kinda like Lunardi's bracketology for the 2016 tournament is available.)

flyingdutchdevil
04-22-2015, 12:24 PM
Hey, Derryck has made Chad Ford's Top 100 for the 2016 draft (ESPN Insider): http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/results/top100/_/year/2016

Some rankings of interest:

#5 Brandon Ingram
#17 Grayson Allen
#23 Derryck Thornton
#36 Chase Jeter

Ingram at the 5 really surprises me. I think Ingram will be a great talent, and I would love to see him in a Duke uniform, but the dude is so physically raw. He is basically the opposite of Justise Winslow in terms of "NBA ready". I know the NBA drafts on potential, but Ingram will need a lot of time to put meat on those bones (it took Amile a solid 2 years, and he came into Duke with a lot more muscle than Ingram).

MCFinARL
04-22-2015, 12:28 PM
Hey, Derryck has made Chad Ford's Top 100 for the 2016 draft (ESPN Insider): http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/results/top100/_/year/2016

Some rankings of interest:

#5 Brandon Ingram
#17 Grayson Allen
#23 Derryck Thornton
#36 Chase Jeter

(I wouldn't take these way-too-early rankings seriously, btw. Kinda like Lunardi's bracketology for the 2016 tournament is available.)

Nooooooo!!!!! Too many Duke players too high, need somebody to stay at least 3 years. What will become of Duke i 2016-17?

So how'm I doing at not taking the rankings too seriously? ;)

Duvall
04-22-2015, 12:29 PM
Hey, Derryck has made Chad Ford's Top 100 for the 2016 draft (ESPN Insider): http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/results/top100/_/year/2016

Some rankings of interest:

#5 Brandon Ingram
#17 Grayson Allen
#23 Derryck Thornton
#36 Chase Jeter

(I wouldn't take these way-too-early rankings seriously, btw. Kinda like Lunardi's bracketology for the 2016 tournament is available.)

Plus, it's Chad Ford. Even his rankings that *aren't* early shouldn't be taken too seriously.

Troublemaker
04-22-2015, 12:34 PM
Nooooooo!!!!! Too many Duke players too high, need somebody to stay at least 3 years. What will become of Duke i 2016-17?

So how'm I doing at not taking the rankings too seriously? ;)

You know how Coach K rolls. He's just going to get some stud 2017 high schoolers to re-classify to 2016. No worries :-)


Plus, it's Chad Ford. Even his rankings that *aren't* early shouldn't be taken too seriously.

Yes, apparently some of his way-in-the-past rankings might have some shenanigans to them: http://deadspin.com/espns-chad-ford-has-been-retroactively-editing-draft-bo-1681631642

roywhite
04-22-2015, 12:37 PM
Ingram at the 5 really surprises me. I think Ingram will be a great talent, and I would love to see him in a Duke uniform, but the dude is so physically raw. He is basically the opposite of Justise Winslow in terms of "NBA ready". I know the NBA drafts on potential, but Ingram will need a lot of time to put meat on those bones (it took Amile a solid 2 years, and he came into Duke with a lot more muscle than Ingram).

Skinniest big time player I've seen since John Henson came into the league.

BD80
04-22-2015, 12:37 PM
Hey, Derryck has made Chad Ford's Top 100 for the 2016 draft (ESPN Insider): http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/results/top100/_/year/2016

Some rankings of interest:

#5 Brandon Ingram
#17 Grayson Allen
#23 Derryck Thornton
#36 Chase Jeter

(I wouldn't take these way-too-early rankings seriously, btw. Kinda like Lunardi's bracketology for the 2016 tournament is available.)

Sigh. Time to start draft vigil threads ...

It's over

CDu
04-22-2015, 12:42 PM
Skinniest big time player I've seen since John Henson came into the league.

And he might be even skinnier. The dude is a toothpick. I was watching the McDonald's game, and if there was anyone who shouldn't go with the old school (shorter, tighter) shorts, it's Ingram. Rail thin, to say the least.

All that said, he's a terrific talent. I just hope he doesn't snap in half!

tux
04-22-2015, 12:51 PM
Sigh. Time to start draft vigil threads ...

It's over

The further out the projection, the more freshmen in the top 10. It almost tracks the HS recruiting rankings for that class... i.e., it doesn't take an expert to project the 2016 NBA draft, just someone who can read and type.

English
04-22-2015, 12:52 PM
And he might be even skinnier. The dude is a toothpick. I was watching the McDonald's game, and if there was anyone who shouldn't go with the old school (shorter, tighter) shorts, it's Ingram. Rail thin, to say the least.

All that said, he's a terrific talent. I just hope he doesn't snap in half!

I've seen some comps to Tayshaun Prince, and those are pretty apt. Henson, despite the ludicrous talk of him playing the 3 at UNC, never really had the game to make any type of impact as a wing. Prince's game is much more suited as a comp, and their body types are incredibly similar--long, rail thin wings with outside games. Prince never really added much mass to his frame, and he made a quality career in the League. Although, admittedly, I'd guess he could beat BI in an arm-wrestling contest.

Edit: To keep this within the same universe as the thread title, count me in the camp of those who are incredibly excited to land DT in the class. Despite my best efforts, I'm sure to enter the season with unreasonable expectations--but, I'll rein them in and enjoy the development. A few more of those ankle-breaking crossovers and dimes to Grayson, and the team will certainly entertain.

tux
04-22-2015, 12:53 PM
And he might be even skinnier. The dude is a toothpick. I was watching the McDonald's game, and if there was anyone who shouldn't go with the old school (shorter, tighter) shorts, it's Ingram. Rail thin, to say the least.

All that said, he's a terrific talent. I just hope he doesn't snap in half!

That's the main reason I don't really see Ingram as OAD. I mean the gold standard for skinny guys has to be Durant, but I think Ingram is even thinner than Durant was at 18...

English
04-22-2015, 01:03 PM
That's the main reason I don't really see Ingram as OAD. I mean the gold standard for skinny guys has to be Durant, but I think Ingram is even thinner than Durant was at 18...

Although it's probably because those in the media lack originality, but I've seen a nickname that Durant previously rejected now applied to BI: The Slim Reaper.

Durant is 6'11 and an otherwordly scorer, so it's really tough to compare anyone to him. I tend to agree with you, though, that it would be really impressive to see Ingram overcome the massive weight/muscle deficiency to be OAD--it would suggest that his talents were on a level that overshadowed his underdeveloped strength and clear need for a training regimen. Or, that NBA scouts are fools singularly focused on potential over substance.

timmy c
04-22-2015, 01:03 PM
That's the main reason I don't really see Ingram as OAD. I mean the gold standard for skinny guys has to be Durant, but I think Ingram is even thinner than Durant was at 18...

hmmmm... maybe a durant high school photo might help. :confused:
5044

OldPhiKap
04-22-2015, 01:05 PM
So how'm I doing at not taking the rankings too seriously? ;)

Kenpom hasn't weighed in yet.

ChillinDuke
04-22-2015, 01:06 PM
hmmmm... maybe a durant high school photo might help. :confused:
5044

We can probably use the padding on the wall to KD's left to evaluate how thin he is versus Ingram.

- Chillin

flyingdutchdevil
04-22-2015, 01:13 PM
Kenpom hasn't weighed in yet.

Metaphor or reference to Ingram's weight? ;)

tbyers11
04-22-2015, 01:13 PM
hmmmm... maybe a durant high school photo might help. :confused:
5044

Those cinder block don't look regulation :)

Good thing we're trying to determine weight and not height or reach

Listen to Quants
04-22-2015, 02:19 PM
Skinniest big time player I've seen since John Henson came into the league.


And he might be even skinnier. The dude is a toothpick. I was watching the McDonald's game, and if there was anyone who shouldn't go with the old school (shorter, tighter) shorts, it's Ingram. Rail thin, to say the least.

All that said, he's a terrific talent. I just hope he doesn't snap in half!


That's the main reason I don't really see Ingram as OAD. I mean the gold standard for skinny guys has to be Durant, but I think Ingram is even thinner than Durant was at 18...

Henson was listed at 185 lbs here: http://www.tarheeltimes.com/rosterbasketball-2009.aspx

Ingram, a couple inches shorter, listed at 196 lbs in the DraftExpress NikeHoopsSummit http://www.draftexpress.com/article/2015-Nike-Hoop-Summit-USA-Junior-National-Select-Team-Measurements-4890

I remember Henson as shockingly thin. Ingram is merely thin :) And still putting on weight, I hope, before he weighs in for the Duke Roster entry.

Duke95
04-22-2015, 02:29 PM
We can probably use the padding on the wall to KD's left to evaluate how thin he is versus Ingram.

- Chillin

Ingram is actually in that photo too, but he turned sideways so you can't see him.

Edouble
04-22-2015, 02:31 PM
Thornton has awfully big shoes to fill with the departure of Tyus Jones.

IMHO, this is kind of the antithesis of Duke basketball under Coach K.

Every player runs his own race, and ultimately attempts to develop into the best version of himself. We don't have system that our players adapt to, we have system that adapts to the strength of our players... and every team is an autonomous organism, particularly in a case like we have now: the 2014-15 and the 2015-16 Blue Devils will look pretty different.

Derryck Thornton doesn't have to fill Tyus Jones's shoes any more than he has to fill Bobby Hurley's shoes. This is a totally different team.

Who knows, maybe by the end of the year we'll see that Derryck Thornton is the best kind of point guard for this year's team, maybe even a better fit than Tyus would have been!

NM Duke Fan
04-22-2015, 02:58 PM
IMHO, this is kind of the antithesis of Duke basketball under Coach K.

Every player runs his own race, and ultimately attempts to develop into the best version of himself. We don't have system that our players adapt to, we have system that adapts to the strength of our players... and every team is an autonomous organism, particularly in a case like we have now: the 2014-15 and the 2015-16 Blue Devils will look pretty different.

Derryck Thornton doesn't have to fill Tyus Jones's shoes any more than he has to fill Bobby Hurley's shoes. This is a totally different team.

Who knows, maybe by the end of the year we'll see that Derryck Thornton is the best kind of point guard for this year's team, maybe even a better fit than Tyus would have been!

I totally agree. If anything, Coach K just seems to get even better at knowing that "A Season is a Lifetime." Each team has its own unique strengths, as does each incoming player. I am really looking forward to how this next unit will gel, and especially how the coaches will adapt the offense and defense to the talents on hand. Including evolving over the year as their capacities expand!

JohnJ
04-22-2015, 03:08 PM
IMHO, this is kind of the antithesis of Duke basketball under Coach K.

Every player runs his own race, and ultimately attempts to develop into the best version of himself. We don't have system that our players adapt to, we have system that adapts to the strength of our players... and every team is an autonomous organism, particularly in a case like we have now: the 2014-15 and the 2015-16 Blue Devils will look pretty different.

Derryck Thornton doesn't have to fill Tyus Jones's shoes any more than he has to fill Bobby Hurley's shoes. This is a totally different team.

Who knows, maybe by the end of the year we'll see that Derryck Thornton is the best kind of point guard for this year's team, maybe even a better fit than Tyus would have been!

You are correct from a team coaching perspective. However, from a fan perspective I think we will all be comparing DT to Tyus. I know I will be. Tyus was such an incredible freshman PG that I won't be able to not compare our next freshman PG to him.

sagegrouse
04-22-2015, 03:17 PM
IMHO, this is kind of the antithesis of Duke basketball under Coach K.

Every player runs his own race, and ultimately attempts to develop into the best version of himself. We don't have system that our players adapt to, we have system that adapts to the strength of our players... and every team is an autonomous organism, particularly in a case like we have now: the 2014-15 and the 2015-16 Blue Devils will look pretty different.

Derryck Thornton doesn't have to fill Tyus Jones's shoes any more than he has to fill Bobby Hurley's shoes. This is a totally different team.

Who knows, maybe by the end of the year we'll see that Derryck Thornton is the best kind of point guard for this year's team, maybe even a better fit than Tyus would have been!

if Derryck is a good, college-level point guard next year, then we should be really pleased. No one should have to come in and feel that he must be the equal of Tyus Jones. IMHO (where the 'H' is silent), Tyus was better as a freshman than Bobby Hurley was and about the same as Bobby as a sophomore. Holy cow!!

If we get good PG play and good defense from Derryck, hooray! Grayson and Luke should provide perimeter offense, and we'll get help on both ends from the other returning players plus Jeter and Sean Obi.

The strong point at the beginning of next season should be the defense -- Amile, Marshall and Matt Jones are strong and Grayson is no slouch. We'll see about Sean's defense, although I have little question about his rebounding. Getting good ball pressure from Derryck will be important.

jv001
04-22-2015, 03:21 PM
if Derryck is a good, college-level point guard next year, then we should be really pleased. No one should have to come in and feel that he must be the equal of Tyus Jones. IMHO (where the 'H' is silent), Tyus was better as a freshman than Bobby Hurley was and about the same as Bobby as a sophomore. Holy cow!!

If we get good PG play and good defense from Derryck, hooray! Grayson and Luke should provide perimeter offense, and we'll get help on both ends from the other returning players plus Jeter and Sean Obi.

The strong point at the beginning of next season should be the defense -- Amile, Marshall and Matt Jones are strong and Grayson is no slouch. We'll see about Sean's defense, although I have little question about his rebounding. Getting good ball pressure from Derryck will be important.

Sage, is it too early for me to begin worrying about Derryck getting into foul trouble? :cool: GoDuke!

sagegrouse
04-22-2015, 03:26 PM
Sage, is it too early for me to begin worrying about Derryck getting into foul trouble? :cool: GoDuke!

Absolutely not. You may want to get some worry beads and practice over the summer.

jv001
04-22-2015, 03:29 PM
Absolutely not. You may want to get some worry beads and practice over the summer.

I believe those worry beads will get in the way of my golf swing. Oh wait a minute, you're not talking about my golf practice but my worrying practice. I just might try that. :cool: GoDuke!

DukeandMdFan
04-22-2015, 03:51 PM
No, you didn't explicitly say that Coach K coerced him, but if he did in fact present the choice to Derryck as "come to Duke early" or "not come to Duke at all" then that would be putting pressure on him with a threat or implied threat of losing his scholarship offer altogether (i.e., the definition of coercion). Again, I refuse to believe that Coach K would do that to him in order to make him reclassify when he wasn't otherwise willing to do so, especially when there is absolutely no evidence of it. I don't even know how such a threat would be effective in this type of situation (where the player is so good that can essentially select any school in the country to play for). Maybe I read too much into your post, though, and that is not what you meant.


He is at a basketball factory and initially reclassified from 2015 to 2016 for basketball purposes...I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt in trusting that he made the right choice for himself and refuse to believe the IC spin that Coach K coerced him in any sense.




No offense but... there is a *TON* of speculation in your post. I could care less what people in "the Thornton camp" said to anyone. All I care about is what Derryck Thornton thought. Do you really think K went to him and said "come to Duke now or don't come at all"? I mean, realistically that might be true. It could be the case that next year Duke has a better PG recruit and isn't as interested in Thornton but that's not Duke's fault. It's not like he had to choose between coming to Duke this year and never playing D1 college ball. For all we know the "persuasion" that was done was K told him that he'd love to have him next year and he'd have a very good chance to start. To speculate that something unseemly happened is just wrong IMO. If Thornton really wanted to play out another year of HS ball then he could have done that and likely would have many schools banging down his door (possibly including Duke). Instead he chose to come to Duke a year early. Great for him.


I agree that Thornton would have other opportunities if he didn't reclassify and commit to Duke.

"Coercion" isn't the right word. I believe the coaches visited him in person to "persuade" him to do something that he otherwise might not have done. If "persuasion" wasn't necessary, all Coach K would have to do is pick up the phone and say, "Hey Derryck, as you know Tyus Jones is leaving for the NBA and we do not have anyone penciled in to be the point guard. If you decide to reclassify, I wanted to let you know that Duke will provide you with a scholarship and a chance to compete for the starting point guard."

Derryck could reply, "Thanks Coach - I will reclassify and commit to Duke. And, congratulations on your fifth national championship. How should I make the announcement?"

But, I don't think it happened that way. Besides reinforcing all of the opportunities that are available from Duke and Coach K, I think Coach K said something like, "We need a point guard next year and we think you would help us the most. I would rather have you be the PG than a fifth-year senior." I think it is plausible that he added, "We will continue to recruit one point guard for next season. and ...

...Duke will not stop recruiting a PG while you make up your mind"

...other potential PGs would love to come to Duke."

...we may withdraw your offer for next season (2015-16) once a point guard commits"

....depending on what PG commits, we may or may not need a point guard the following season. It just depends on who commits first."

...this may be your best opportunity to be starting pg at Duke."

Of course, this is pure speculation, but recruiting is an "ugly" business. Coaches have to target more players than they have available scholarships because they can't land everyone and, inevitably, some HS players who have been heavilty recruited are then told that the offer is no longer available.

FerryFor50
04-22-2015, 04:06 PM
I agree that Thornton would have other opportunities if he didn't reclassify and commit to Duke.

"Coercion" isn't the right word. I believe the coaches visited him in person to "persuade" him to do something that he otherwise might not have done. If "persuasion" wasn't necessary, all Coach K would have to do is pick up the phone and say, "Hey Derryck, as you know Tyus Jones is leaving for the NBA and we do not have anyone penciled in to be the point guard. If you decide to reclassify, I wanted to let you know that Duke will provide you with a scholarship and a chance to compete for the starting point guard."

Derryck could reply, "Thanks Coach - I will reclassify and commit to Duke. And, congratulations on your fifth national championship. How should I make the announcement?"

But, I don't think it happened that way. Besides reinforcing all of the opportunities that are available from Duke and Coach K, I think Coach K said something like, "We need a point guard next year and we think you would help us the most. I would rather have you be the PG than a fifth-year senior." I think it is plausible that he added, "We will continue to recruit one point guard for next season. and ...

...Duke will not stop recruiting a PG while you make up your mind"

...other potential PGs would love to come to Duke."

...we may withdraw your offer for next season (2015-16) once a point guard commits"

....depending on what PG commits, we may or may not need a point guard the following season. It just depends on who commits first."

...this may be your best opportunity to be starting pg at Duke."

Of course, this is pure speculation, but recruiting is an "ugly" business. Coaches have to target more players than they have available scholarships because they can't land everyone and, inevitably, some HS players who have been heavilty recruited are then told that the offer is no longer available.

It's also a two way street.

People like to say the coaches are the ones driving this process, but the athletes are just as responsible. Some of them love the attention and drawing the process out as long as possible (Tony Parker, Harrison Barnes). Some just want to get it over with and truly are agonizing over what school to pick.

Coaches have to look out for their programs and recruits have to look out for themselves.

I just don't like it when guys get forced out, like Cal seemingly did at Kentucky with Harrow and Wiltjer and Crean did at Indiana with oversigning (http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/83643/since-when-is-oversigning-ok).

ArtVandelay
04-22-2015, 04:22 PM
Maybe I missed this, but does anyone have links to scouting reports on Thornton? The sense I get from prior posts and boxscores linked is that he is not quite the same finished product that Tyus was from day one. While his athleticism is more elite, he may be a bit more inconsistent, more prone to turnovers, and his jump shooting and FT shooting are not as good. Is that fair? I am just wondering what we have here -- is he more of a creator and distributor, does he hunt his own shot, does he like to break defenders down off the dribble (which seems to be case), what is his defensive reputation, etc.? Obviously thrilled that we have a high-end PG recruit, but would like more information before I rush to judgment.

I remain skeptical that we have enough offense on the returning team to truly be considered a Final Four contender (Ingram would help), but I am now less worried than I was that next year will be a big-time down year. Maybe I am a negative nancy, but I was having fears about whether we would even be an NCAA tournament caliber team next year.

Skitzle
04-22-2015, 04:32 PM
1) It's too early to ask
2) I'm asking anyway
3) You can never REALLY know
4) Still there are some rumors.

Which of these guys are projected as One and Done

Player (My understanding)
Ingram (Very likely OAD)
Jeter (Probable OAD. Has Potential, not a lock)
Thornton (Probable OAD. Has Potential, not a lock
Kennard (Grayson Allen OAD From 8th Man to First Round Draft Pick :D)


Anyone know anything different?

tbyers11
04-22-2015, 04:42 PM
1) It's too early to ask
2) I'm asking anyway
3) You can never REALLY know
4) Still there are some rumors.

Which of these guys are projected as One and Done

Player (My understanding)
Ingram (Very likely OAD)
Jeter (Probable OAD. Has Potential, not a lock)
Thornton (Probable OAD. Has Potential, not a lock
Kennard (Grayson Allen OAD From 8th Man to First Round Draft Pick :D)


Anyone know anything different?

My thoughts:
Ingram 85% (potential, potential, potential)
Jeter 30% (skinny, young, and seems to be a tweener (PF in college but maybe SF in pros)
Thornton 50% (good athletic potential for PG)
Kennard 10% (hyper athletic potential not there, no matter how good he is)

So pretty much in agreement except I think Jeter is a bit more likely to stick around than you do. Last year in the summer I probably would have said Okafor (98%) Winslow (50%) Tyus (20%) and Grayson (0%)

CDu
04-22-2015, 05:26 PM
1) It's too early to ask
2) I'm asking anyway
3) You can never REALLY know
4) Still there are some rumors.

Which of these guys are projected as One and Done

Player (My understanding)
Ingram (Very likely OAD)
Jeter (Probable OAD. Has Potential, not a lock)
Thornton (Probable OAD. Has Potential, not a lock
Kennard (Grayson Allen OAD From 8th Man to First Round Draft Pick :D)


Anyone know anything different?

If I had to guess, I would say the order of likelihood of one-and-donedness would be Ingram, Thornton, Jeter, Kennard. And I would put the over-under of one-and-dones for us next year at 2.

As for Allen, I am not sure I see a jump to the NBA next year as a soph. The issue is that he is a tweener: he is on the small side for an NBA SG, and doesn't have the game (yet) of a PG. Unless he has an absolutely monster year, I think he comes back.

miramar
04-22-2015, 05:55 PM
I'd argue that the tipping point was Harrison Barnes' commitment to UNC. That lit a fire in Coach K in a very unique way, and in his players. Since then, Duke has gone 194-36 (84%!), with two national titles, and 9 All-Americans (Scheyer, Smith, Singler, Rivers, Curry, Plumlee, Parker, Cook, Okafor) and 9 NBA Draft picks (with three forthcoming).

A lot of so-called experts thought that the Barnes debacle was proof positive that Coach K could not recruit with ol' Roy, which meant that Duke basketball was in an irreversible decline.

If anything, the November 13, 2009 was the end of Coach K coming up as the runner up for a number of players (Greg Echenique and Greg Monroe also come to mind, although I'm sure there were others).

Since then Duke has won two national championships and probably would have won in 2011 if Kyrie had played the whole season, while UNC seems to have gotten into a nasty habit of accumulating double digit losses year after year.

And irony of ironies, now people are noticing that ol' Roy can't recruit with Coack K. Oh, well, at least he's trying:


"Before Duke successfully recruited Jahlil Okafor, it did the same with Jabari Parker and, before him, Austin Rivers and Kyrie Irving – all players who arrived among the best prospects in their class, and three of whom left school after one year for the NBA.

A couple states away, Kentucky has had its pick in recent years of the best of the best high school players in the country, and last season Kansas – the program North Carolina coach Roy Williams used to lead – successfully wooed Andrew Wiggins, who went No. 1 in the NBA draft.

Williams and UNC, meanwhile, have mostly been left to watch the most prized high school recruits go elsewhere. It hasn’t been for lack of trying, Williams said Friday, the day before his team’s rematch against Duke in the regular-season finale for both teams."

Read more here: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/college/mens-basketball/article12871157.html#storylink=cpy

Olympic Fan
04-22-2015, 06:10 PM
Just to clarify one thing in this thread -- Grayson Allen is not going to be a OAD.

He may be a TAD, but he's already announced he's coming back next season.

As for the other guys ... I hope they play well enough to make themselves OAD -- as Justise and Tyus did this past season.

sagegrouse
04-22-2015, 06:10 PM
"Before Duke successfully recruited Jahlil Okafor, it did the same with Jabari Parker and, before him, Austin Rivers and Kyrie Irving – all players who arrived among the best prospects in their class, and three of whom left school after one year for the NBA.

I'm glad that one of Jabari, Jahlil, Austin and Kyrie stayed for a second year; I am trying to think which one it was.

conmanlhughes
04-22-2015, 06:16 PM
Maybe I missed this, but does anyone have links to scouting reports on Thornton? The sense I get from prior posts and boxscores linked is that he is not quite the same finished product that Tyus was from day one. While his athleticism is more elite, he may be a bit more inconsistent, more prone to turnovers, and his jump shooting and FT shooting are not as good. Is that fair? I am just wondering what we have here -- is he more of a creator and distributor, does he hunt his own shot, does he like to break defenders down off the dribble (which seems to be case), what is his defensive reputation, etc.? Obviously thrilled that we have a high-end PG recruit, but would like more information before I rush to judgment.

I remain skeptical that we have enough offense on the returning team to truly be considered a Final Four contender (Ingram would help), but I am now less worried than I was that next year will be a big-time down year. Maybe I am a negative nancy, but I was having fears about whether we would even be an NCAA tournament caliber team next year.

I do not know how reliable his HS stats are. When you play with a ballhog as big ad Alonzo Trier, I feel whatever his AAU numbers would be the best indicator.

kAzE
04-22-2015, 06:38 PM
Well, after my introduction to Derryck Thornton via YouTube, I have say that I'm extremely pleased with his skill set. I always try to keep in mind the caveat that everything on YouTube is a highlight reel, so my expectations are always tempered, but Thornton looks like the real deal. Here's my scouting report:

Positives:

- Athletically, he's ready to play high major college ball. He looks very quick and very bouncy. You don't see a lot of guys standing 6'1" who can do full extension windmill dunks. I'm very excited to see this kid in the open court, he should be an absolute beast on the fast break, finding streaking teammates, or finishing above the rim himself.

- His handles are EXCELLENT, possibly even better than Tyus' coming into last year. Now, don't get me wrong, he's very unlikely to be on Tyus' level of feel for the game, ability to make shots, and veteran poise, but just in terms of having the ball on a string, I don't think we've had a guy this good since Kyrie Irving. This guy has spectacular ability with the ball, and looks like one of those rare guards who can break down a defender using his handles and quick first step.

- His creative instinct and ability to change speeds is impressive. He should have little trouble getting wherever he needs to go with the ball in his hands. If Coach K uses him like I'm assuming that he will, this guy is going to get in the paint a lot, meaning lots of free throws, and lots of kick outs for open shooters.

- Defensively, I think Derryck has a higher ceiling than Tyus Jones. He's got long arms and is just physically quicker and and more explosive.

Negatives:

- It's hard to draw negatives from highlight tapes, but decision making may be something he struggles with early on. Tyus has the insane ability to just know when to set up his teammates and when to take over a game with his scoring. Derryck has good passing instincts and good vision, but is known to go through stretches where he forgets to keeps his teammates involved.

- His jump shot looks fine mechanically, but people are concerned a bit on his range. He may have some trouble adjusting to the distance of the college 3 point line. However, this was also a knock on both Tyus and Justise coming into last year, and that ended up being totally untrue.

- As with most freshman, he's going to need to get stronger. Not everyone can be full grown men like Jabari, Jahlil, and Justise from day 1. He'll get in the paint, but the ability to finish through contact will be something gained through time spent in the weight room.

Overall:

I'm psyched. He looks great. Everything I'd want in a point guard at this level. I see him as some sort of a hybrid between Kyrie Irving and Tyus Jones, as insane as that sounds. If he's 75% as good as those guys, we're in fantastic shape. He's got Kyrie-eqsue handles but with Tyus' ability to set up teammates. He's very unlikely to be as good a shooter or scorer as Kyrie, or as good of a pure point guard as Tyus, but he looks like he could be somewhere in the middle for those traits, and we're extremely lucky to have gained his services for at least next year. A+ recruiting job, Scheyer.

But seriously, how hard can it be to spell Derryck Thornton? At least it makes phonetic sense. How many people do you think misspell Dwyane Wade's first name everyday?

lotusland
04-22-2015, 06:56 PM
If I had to guess, I would say the order of likelihood of one-and-donedness would be Ingram, Thornton, Jeter, Kennard. And I would put the over-under of one-and-dones for us next year at 2.

As for Allen, I am not sure I see a jump to the NBA next year as a soph. The issue is that he is a tweener: he is on the small side for an NBA SG, and doesn't have the game (yet) of a PG. Unless he has an absolutely monster year, I think he comes back.

To the OP's question I have no idea because I consistently underestimate recruits and did not expect either Tyus or Winslow to be OAD. The Jeter chatter doesn't sound OAD to me but I didn't think Winslow would either. I thought he was supposed to be a defensive specialist with a questionable shot. I'm expecting Jeter to be a skinny stretch 4 who has a decent but not great shot. That doesn't sound like OAD to me but he may be way more than I'm expecting. Thornton was considering another year in HS or a possible red-shirt year until this week so will he really be ready? I'm imagining a William Avery type player.

Isn't Grayson comparabe in size to JJ? He's way more athletic but not nearly the shooter so I don't see where he couldn't play shooting guard with his leaping ability and reach. I haven't seen anything from him that indicates he could play PG well in college much less the NBA.

CDu
04-22-2015, 07:21 PM
To the OP's question I have no idea because I consistently underestimate recruits and did not expect either Tyus or Winslow to be OAD. The Jeter chatter doesn't sound OAD to me but I didn't think Winslow would either. I thought he was supposed to be a defensive specialist with a questionable shot. I'm expecting Jeter to be a skinny stretch 4 who has a decent but not great shot. That doesn't sound like OAD to me but he may be way more than I'm expecting. Thornton was considering another year in HS or a possible red-shirt year until this week so will he really be ready? I'm imagining a William Avery type player.

Isn't Grayson comparabe in size to JJ? He's way more athletic but not nearly the shooter so I don't see where he couldn't play shooting guard with his leaping ability and reach. I haven't seen anything from him that indicates he could play PG well in college much less the NBA.

Allen is listed at 6'4", but I suspect that is generous. Redick is 6'4" or 6'5". And note that Redick is on the smaller side for an NBA SG.

I fear that Allen faces a similar problem as DeMarcus Nelson did: NBA athleticism but too short to play his position. Nelson was forced to try to learn PG.

If you are 6'4" or smaller as a SG, you need to be superlative at at least one skill to be a high draft pick. Redick is an elite NBA shooter, yet he couldn't realistically go pro early. Allen has NBA athleticism, but I am not sure he is so gifted athletically that it will offset the size issues. And I haven't seen enough yet to say he has superlative skills elsewhere. And that will, I suspect, keep him well outside of the lottery. Unless of course he absolutely blows up next year and dominates, which I don't think is likely (I think he will be good but not great next year).

I am not saying he can't or won't play in the NBA. I am just saying his current combo of measurables and skill aren't typically coveted in the NBA draft such that he would be suited to go early.

TruBlu
04-22-2015, 07:59 PM
Allen is listed at 6'4", but I suspect that is generous. Redick is 6'4" or 6'5". And note that Redick is on the smaller side for an NBA SG.

I fear that Allen faces a similar problem as DeMarcus Nelson did: NBA athleticism but too short to play his position. Nelson was forced to try to learn PG.

If you are 6'4" or smaller as a SG, you need to be superlative at at least one skill to be a high draft pick. Redick is an elite NBA shooter, yet he couldn't realistically go pro early. Allen has NBA athleticism, but I am not sure he is so gifted athletically that it will offset the size issues. And I haven't seen enough yet to say he has superlative skills elsewhere. And that will, I suspect, keep him well outside of the lottery. Unless of course he absolutely blows up next year and dominates, which I don't think is likely (I think he will be good but not great next year).

I am not saying he can't or won't play in the NBA. I am just saying his current combo of measurables and skill aren't typically coveted in the NBA draft such that he would be suited to go early.

Hopefully, Allen will have 3 more years to grow a few inches before the NBA, and accumulate several All-ACC, All-America, and Ncaa Championship MOPs.:D

NM Duke Fan
04-22-2015, 08:11 PM
Allen is listed at 6'4", but I suspect that is generous. Redick is 6'4" or 6'5". And note that Redick is on the smaller side for an NBA SG.

I fear that Allen faces a similar problem as DeMarcus Nelson did: NBA athleticism but too short to play his position. Nelson was forced to try to learn PG.

If you are 6'4" or smaller as a SG, you need to be superlative at at least one skill to be a high draft pick. Redick is an elite NBA shooter, yet he couldn't realistically go pro early. Allen has NBA athleticism, but I am not sure he is so gifted athletically that it will offset the size issues. And I haven't seen enough yet to say he has superlative skills elsewhere. And that will, I suspect, keep him well outside of the lottery. Unless of course he absolutely blows up next year and dominates, which I don't think is likely (I think he will be good but not great next year).

I am not saying he can't or won't play in the NBA. I am just saying his current combo of measurables and skill aren't typically coveted in the NBA draft such that he would be suited to go early.

All of this is relevant to his NBA hopes. A few of us, however, did not stop growing until about 20, so you never know! Once in awhile a player goes through a growth spurt out of the blue in the summer between the first and second years.

In any case, he can keep working on developing a fuller range of polished skills and find his best possible future.

Saratoga2
04-22-2015, 08:17 PM
Great get for Duke! I am temperring my epextations a little based on the posts on this board. On the other hand, the addition of a "pure" point guard helps everyone on the team. This is a great addition for the team.

Plumlee and Jefferson, in particular, are really going to benefit from having someone that can pass them the ball. Jefferson has had some success with the pick-and-roll. Tyus would often shoot or create his own shot off of ball screens. If Thornton can create good looks for the front court, that will open things up a little for the perimeter shooters.

Speaking of shooters, having a pure point guard also helps Matt Jones. He's a proven to be a decent-to-good set shooter. Having another ballhandler also helps Allen take on the role of attacking scoring guard.

If only we didn't have to wait 7 months to see this team play!

Even if Derryck has more of a learning curve than Tyus, which is not a given, I trust that coach K sees a lot in this kid and that is good enough for me. The key point to me is that now has three back court players and all of them are very good. Thornton adds PG skills and protection against foul trouble, injury and the like. Look forward to watching him play for Duke.

CDu
04-22-2015, 08:24 PM
All of this is relevant to his NBA hopes. A few of us, however, did not stop growing until about 20, so you never know! Once in awhile a player goes through a growth spurt out of the blue in the summer between the first and second years.

In any case, he can keep working on developing a fuller range of polished skills and find his best possible future.

Oh absolutely! I don't mean to suggest Allen has no hope of being a lottery pick or NBA player someday. I just personally don't think he will get there next year. But in two years or three? Certainly a possibility.

Allen is I think a great program wing player: big and athletic enough to be a valuable contributor at the college level, but not big enough or skilled enough (yet) to be a big early-entry threat. He is the kind of guy who coild be a force by his junior year if his skills continue to improve, and I think there is a very good chance he is at Duke for that junior year.

FireOgilvie
04-22-2015, 08:27 PM
I'm glad that one of Jabari, Jahlil, Austin and Kyrie stayed for a second year; I am trying to think which one it was.

He was quoting an old article that was written before Okafor left.


Allen is listed at 6'4", but I suspect that is generous. Redick is 6'4" or 6'5". And note that Redick is on the smaller side for an NBA SG.

I fear that Allen faces a similar problem as DeMarcus Nelson did: NBA athleticism but too short to play his position. Nelson was forced to try to learn PG.

If you are 6'4" or smaller as a SG, you need to be superlative at at least one skill to be a high draft pick. Redick is an elite NBA shooter, yet he couldn't realistically go pro early. Allen has NBA athleticism, but I am not sure he is so gifted athletically that it will offset the size issues. And I haven't seen enough yet to say he has superlative skills elsewhere. And that will, I suspect, keep him well outside of the lottery. Unless of course he absolutely blows up next year and dominates, which I don't think is likely (I think he will be good but not great next year).

I am not saying he can't or won't play in the NBA. I am just saying his current combo of measurables and skill aren't typically coveted in the NBA draft such that he would be suited to go early.

According to DraftExpress, Grayson was measured in 2013 to be 6'4.5" in shoes with a 6'6.5" wingspan. He's the same height as JJ, but with a longer wingspan by 3 inches. Demarcus Nelson was 6'2" in shoes, but had a ridiculous 6'10" wingspan.

RepoMan
04-22-2015, 08:29 PM
The level at which Coach K and his team are recruiting is unprecedented for us, and that is saying something. Honestly, I thought it would be impossible to ever return to the overall heights of 88 - 92, but, in a different way, we are there. I hope everyone stops to smell the roses. It can't last forever . . . Can it?

subzero02
04-22-2015, 08:34 PM
Allen is listed at 6'4", but I suspect that is generous. Redick is 6'4" or 6'5". And note that Redick is on the smaller side for an NBA SG.

I fear that Allen faces a similar problem as DeMarcus Nelson did: NBA athleticism but too short to play his position. Nelson was forced to try to learn PG.

If you are 6'4" or smaller as a SG, you need to be superlative at at least one skill to be a high draft pick. Redick is an elite NBA shooter, yet he couldn't realistically go pro early. Allen has NBA athleticism, but I am not sure he is so gifted athletically that it will offset the size issues. And I haven't seen enough yet to say he has superlative skills elsewhere. And that will, I suspect, keep him well outside of the lottery. Unless of course he absolutely blows up next year and dominates, which I don't think is likely (I think he will be good but not great next year).

I am not saying he can't or won't play in the NBA. I am just saying his current combo of measurables and skill aren't typically coveted in the NBA draft such that he would be suited to go early.

According to draft express JJ is 6'4" without shoes and 6'4.75" with shoes. In order to succeed at 2 guard in the NBA, Allen is going to need to improve his 3 point shot, handle and passing ability. For a freshman he was a very good on the ball defender and should continue to be an elite player at driving the ball to the hoop and finishing. I think Grayson will play play 2 guard in the NBA because he seems to have the passion, work ethic and confidence needed to continue to improve upon his strengths and weaknesses... In addition to his obvious physical gifts, Grayson possesses intangible gifts that will help him to overcome a lack of size.

jv001
04-22-2015, 09:22 PM
He was quoting an old article that was written before Okafor left.



According to DraftExpress, Grayson was measured in 2013 to be 6'4.5" in shoes with a 6'6.5" wingspan. He's the same height as JJ, but with a longer wingspan by 3 inches. Demarcus Nelson was 6'2" in shoes, but had a ridiculous 6'10" wingspan.

But DeMarc was not in the same hemisphere when it came to shooting the basketball like JJ. I'll be happy if Grayson is half the shooter that JJ was. Well maybe 3/4 the shooter that JJ was. GoDuke!

NM Duke Fan
04-22-2015, 09:37 PM
Oh absolutely! I don't mean to suggest Allen has no hope of being a lottery pick or NBA player someday. I just personally don't think he will get there next year. But in two years or three? Certainly a possibility.

Allen is I think a great program wing player: big and athletic enough to be a valuable contributor at the college level, but not big enough or skilled enough (yet) to be a big early-entry threat. He is the kind of guy who coild be a force by his junior year if his skills continue to improve, and I think there is a very good chance he is at Duke for that junior year.

We totally agree. I believe being in the program through his Junior year is the most probable future, and very likely the best path for him on other levels as well. He has so many intangibles and I look forward to seeing him develop into a really well-rounded player who can do a variety of things even on the next level. He has plenty of time to become a better outside shooter, etc.

I do hope he grows another inch or so, not likely but not impossible!

Utley
04-22-2015, 10:17 PM
He was quoting an old article that was written before Okafor left.



According to DraftExpress, Grayson was measured in 2013 to be 6'4.5" in shoes with a 6'6.5" wingspan. He's the same height as JJ, but with a longer wingspan by 3 inches. Demarcus Nelson was 6'2" in shoes, but had a ridiculous 6'10" wingspan.

I am 6'3" (if I don't slouch - which isn't very often) and was standing near Grayson at the after party and I bet I had an inch on him. I'm going with6'2" - hopefully still growing.

Newton_14
04-22-2015, 11:18 PM
Oh absolutely! I don't mean to suggest Allen has no hope of being a lottery pick or NBA player someday. I just personally don't think he will get there next year. But in two years or three? Certainly a possibility.

Allen is I think a great program wing player: big and athletic enough to be a valuable contributor at the college level, but not big enough or skilled enough (yet) to be a big early-entry threat. He is the kind of guy who coild be a force by his junior year if his skills continue to improve, and I think there is a very good chance he is at Duke for that junior year. He said after the game that his intent was to play all 4 years at Duke and it would take something really special to change that. Heck, maybe #3 is the next number to hang in Cameron! As a side note, I do feel he is big enough to play 2 Guard in the NBA, especially with his hops.


He was quoting an old article that was written before Okafor left.



According to DraftExpress, Grayson was measured in 2013 to be 6'4.5" in shoes with a 6'6.5" wingspan. He's the same height as JJ, but with a longer wingspan by 3 inches. Demarcus Nelson was 6'2" in shoes, but had a ridiculous 6'10" wingspan. Grayson also has very big hands ala Jahlil, which is a huge help as well. I still can't get over the move he made on Dekker when he took him to the hole. He made it look easy but it was anything but. Going up with 1 hand to stretch the ball out as far as humanly possible from the defender, while using the off arm as a shield, then bringing it back to two hands just before finishing. Just sick. For me, that play is in the Top 5 of Duke Plays for the entire season.

bounce840
04-22-2015, 11:21 PM
Well a lot of players look small when you look up close at them Monta Ellis is six three he's been a good player in the NBA. When me and me friend went to Duke last fall and saw the players Jones was small smaller than me and when I saw Allen he had a paper in his hand I am about six four he looked about the same height as me but like Draft Express said he's six four and a half anyone read about Chad Ford's NBA Draft board he has him as a lottery pick next year.

neemizzle
04-22-2015, 11:48 PM
He said after the game that his intent was to play all 4 years at Duke and it would take something really special to change that. Heck, maybe #3 is the next number to hang in Cameron! As a side note, I do feel he is big enough to play 2 Guard in the NBA, especially with his hops.

Grayson also has very big hands ala Jahlil, which is a huge help as well. I still can't get over the move he made on Dekker when he took him to the hole. He made it look easy but it was anything but. Going up with 1 hand to stretch the ball out as far as humanly possible from the defender, while using the off arm as a shield, then bringing it back to two hands just before finishing. Just sick. For me, that play is in the Top 5 of Duke Plays for the entire season.

I agree with everything, but ESPECIALLY the bold. That move he made, along with that 8 point burst saved that game. Regardless of Tyus Stones, regardless of the Jah and-one on Frank, I stand by Grayson's burst. I'd put it up there with importance with the comeback against UNC (Tyus Takeover) and the UVA comeback. Maybe a little more important because this was the National Title game, and we were down what, 9??

I said it from day one, Okafor/Jones/Winslow were important Freshman, and they obviously helped us win the title. But Grayson would be the most important after the first season, because he committed before any of those 3, and was very pumped to wear a Duke uniform. He's also the most important because we've seen flashes of his stuff. He's gotta be that way for an entire season. Can he? I feel confident in it.

I like what I see from Thornton though. I think there will be growing pains at first, and we've got that game against UK in that Champions Classic in November, so that'll be an initial challenge.

English
04-23-2015, 10:40 AM
Well a lot of players look small when you look up close at them Monta Ellis is six three he's been a good player in the NBA. When me and me friend went to Duke last fall and saw the players Jones was small smaller than me and when I saw Allen he had a paper in his hand I am about six four he looked about the same height as me but like Draft Express said he's six four and a half anyone read about Chad Ford's NBA Draft board he has him as a lottery pick next year.

Chad Ford was also on record after the Natty Champs game, the same day that Grayson publicly said he was returning to Duke for his soph year (which I thought at the time seemed a comically unnecessary statement), saying that he'd spoken with his usually high number of NBA scouts and front office sources who confirmed that Grayson would've been a likely first round pick in this year's draft and possibly a higher pick than Devin Booker (in the mid- to high-teens). For anyone suggesting that Grayson couldn't develop into a lottery pick, especially in a down draft like next year's, I recommend you reconsider the way NBA teams evaluate talent for the purposes of the draft. Now, certainly, a poor showing in pre-draft workouts could've changed things, but we know Grayson has shown the ability to shoot and his athleticism is unquestioned.

bounce840
04-23-2015, 11:07 AM
Chad Ford was also on record after the Natty Champs game, the same day that Grayson publicly said he was returning to Duke for his soph year (which I thought at the time seemed a comically unnecessary statement), saying that he'd spoken with his usually high number of NBA scouts and front office sources who confirmed that Grayson would've been a likely first round pick in this year's draft and possibly a higher pick than Devin Booker (in the mid- to high-teens). For anyone suggesting that Grayson couldn't develop into a lottery pick, especially in a down draft like next year's, I recommend you reconsider the way NBA teams evaluate talent for the purposes of the draft. Now, certainly, a poor showing in pre-draft workouts could've changed things, but we know Grayson has shown the ability to shoot and his athleticism is unquestioned.. Which is why he's tall enough to play shooting guard he still needs to be able to play point guard and pick up those skills but in Insider yesterday Ford was talking about Allen versus Booker with scouts and scouts said they really prefer Allen

Troublemaker
04-23-2015, 12:02 PM
He said after the game that his intent was to play all 4 years at Duke and it would take something really special to change that. Heck, maybe #3 is the next number to hang in Cameron!

I'll say this. If I'm Grayson, I do not leave Duke as long as the possibility still exists that I can become the first human being in history to win 4 NCAA championships as a basketball player. (Thanks to freshman ineligibility back in the day). If he shares this opinion, hopefully next season's team makes it easy for Grayson to return then.

Duvall
04-23-2015, 12:14 PM
I'll say this. If I'm Grayson, I do not leave Duke as long as the possibility still exists that I can become the first human being in history to win 4 NCAA championships as a basketball player. (Thanks to freshman ineligibility back in the day). If he shares this opinion, hopefully next season's team makes it easy for Grayson to return then.

So we not only have to root for Duke to win next year's title, but for the UConn women to lose as well? Well, I was planning on doing that anyway.

bounce840
04-23-2015, 12:46 PM
Hey guys is he a one and done player remember Tyus Stones wasn't thought of a one and done I think Thorton reminds me some of Jeff Teague and the dribbling reminds me of Irving but I don't think he's that great of a shooter as Irving scouting reports please!!

Kedsy
04-23-2015, 01:40 PM
Hey guys is he a one and done player remember Tyus Stones wasn't thought of a one and done I think Thorton reminds me some of Jeff Teague and the dribbling reminds me of Irving but I don't think he's that great of a shooter as Irving scouting reports please!!

First of all, as a representative of the grammar police -- punctuation please. Your posts are really hard to read.

Second, the posters above were talking about Grayson Allen, not Derryck Thornton, being a three or four year player.

Finally, come on, ThorNton, not "Thorton." Is it really that hard to spell players' names?

yancem
04-23-2015, 02:08 PM
. Which is why he's tall enough to play shooting guard he still needs to be able to play point guard and pick up those skills but in Insider yesterday Ford was talking about Allen versus Booker with scouts and scouts said they really prefer Allen

Which makes sense when you really think about it. Booker showed that he is a good shooter but he doesn't have near the athleticism of Allen. In the F4, Allen really got to show that he can be an offensive force and can score in a variety of ways. He also showed that he can defend at a high level. I'm not sure Booker showed he was much more than a shooter.

bounce840
04-23-2015, 02:14 PM
First of all, as a representative of the grammar police -- punctuation please. Your posts are really hard to read.

Second, the posters above were talking about Grayson Allen, not Derryck Thornton, being a three or four year player.

Finally, come on, ThorNton, not "Thorton." Is it really that hard to spell players' names? My posts may be hard to read but I don't really come on here and expect to be tutored. I have enough brain cramps from school. Yeah, well I was talking about either one. Is Allen a two and done and is Thornton a one and done?? I believe the whole board was just underrating Allen's ability that's all.

bounce840
04-23-2015, 02:15 PM
Which makes sense when you really think about it. Booker showed that he is a good shooter but he doesn't have near the athleticism of Allen. In the F4, Allen really got to show that he can be an offensive force and can score in a variety of ways. He also showed that he can defend at a high level. I'm not sure Booker showed he was much more than a shooter. Yeah Allen is underated glad we got Thornton though he's a good find so you guys think he's a one and done??

Duke3517
04-23-2015, 02:33 PM
Yeah Allen is underated glad we got Thornton though he's a good find so you guys think he's a one and done??

That depends on if his game is ready for the next level. But most people who commit early aren't ready.

bounce840
04-23-2015, 02:35 PM
That depends on if his game is ready for the next level. But most people who commit early aren't ready.

So you mean we might actually have a guard who stays two years how does this affect Dennis Smith??

English
04-23-2015, 02:36 PM
Which makes sense when you really think about it. Booker showed that he is a good shooter but he doesn't have near the athleticism of Allen. In the F4, Allen really got to show that he can be an offensive force and can score in a variety of ways. He also showed that he can defend at a high level. I'm not sure Booker showed he was much more than a shooter.

Nothing you mention here contradicts my own personal opinion, which is admittedly very Duke-centric. However, after spending much of the latter two-thirds of the season listening to the talking heads posit that Booker could potentially be the best player (not the highest rated NBA draft prospect, mind you, but player) on UK's team, it's laughable that after one exceptional, highly visible game, Duke's own Grayson Allen (he who resided firmly in the 8th spot of an 8-man rotation) might be the more appealing 2-guard prospect. Fun to follow NBA scouting juxtaposed with what's valued/valuable in college hoops. I'm giddy thinking about the backcourt athleticism we could trot out each night next season.

I've also given some thought to the comps for Derryck lately--I've heard some hodge podge of hybrid strengths and weaknesses of Kyrie, Tyus, and JWill (all very compelling). I'd like to introduce another, although I anticipate some push-back or refining: Sean Dockery. I recall Dockery had some of the best handles I had seen at Duke in recent memory (obviously before Kyrie arrived for his brief affair with Duke hoops), and he also came with some limitations shooting and in decision-making. Dockery's career didn't end up where we might've hoped, but he was a contributor and the comp certainly tempers expectations from the Kyrie-Tyus-JWill camp. Perhaps a rich man's Dockery, or a further lumping of Dockery's skillset with the three aforementioned extraordinary lead guards.

bounce840
04-23-2015, 02:39 PM
Nothing you mention here contradicts my own personal opinion, which is admittedly very Duke-centric. However, after spending much of the latter two-thirds of the season listening to the talking heads posit that Booker could potentially be the best player (not the highest rated NBA draft prospect, mind you, but player) on UK's team, it's laughable that after one exceptional, highly visible game, Duke's own Grayson Allen (he who resided firmly in the 8th spot of an 8-man rotation) might be the more appealing 2-guard prospect. Fun to follow NBA scouting juxtaposed with what's valued/valuable in college hoops. I'm giddy thinking about the backcourt athleticism we could trot out each night next season.

I've also given some thought to the comps for Derryck lately--I've heard some hodge podge of hybrid strengths and weaknesses of Kyrie, Tyus, and JWill (all very compelling). I'd like to introduce another, although I anticipate some push-back or refining: Sean Dockery. I recall Dockery had some of the best handles I had seen at Duke in recent memory (obviously before Kyrie arrived for his brief affair with Duke hoops), and he also came with some limitations shooting and in decision-making. Dockery's career didn't end up where we might've hoped, but he was a contributor and the comp certainly tempers expectations from the Kyrie-Tyus-JWill camp. Perhaps a rich man's Dockery, or a further lumping of Dockery's skillset with the three aforementioned extraordinary lead guards. I want all the guys to go pro if they are ready eh I don't see him at Irving's level maybe but I see him as better than Dockery it's hard to be as good as Irving. Irving is a beast.

flyingdutchdevil
04-23-2015, 02:48 PM
I want all the guys to go pro if they are ready eh I don't see him at Irving's level maybe but I see him as better than Dockery it's hard to be as good as Irving. Irving is a beast.

You really need to learn to use punctuation. I have a difficult time understanding your posts.

CDu
04-23-2015, 03:04 PM
Nothing you mention here contradicts my own personal opinion, which is admittedly very Duke-centric. However, after spending much of the latter two-thirds of the season listening to the talking heads posit that Booker could potentially be the best player (not the highest rated NBA draft prospect, mind you, but player) on UK's team, it's laughable that after one exceptional, highly visible game, Duke's own Grayson Allen (he who resided firmly in the 8th spot of an 8-man rotation) might be the more appealing 2-guard prospect. Fun to follow NBA scouting juxtaposed with what's valued/valuable in college hoops. I'm giddy thinking about the backcourt athleticism we could trot out each night next season.

Yeah, I stand by my belief that, if he had gone pro, Allen's stock might have taken a hit once he got into pre-draft workouts. We're talking about a kid who basically had just a handful of good games last year and was otherwise completely un-noteworthy. So the discussion that he would definitely go in the first round this year had he come out seems... knee-jerk to me. But, I've been wrong before on a kid's draft stock, and Allen could certainly surprise me next year. I'm hopeful he does surprise me because that likely means we're in for a big year. But I don't think he can just be good next year and become a first-round pick. Sort of like how James Michael McAdoo went from being a lottery pick as a frosh to being undrafted as a junior; next year we'll see any of the warts in his game as he is asked to play a more prominent role, whereas this year we didn't have that pressure/responsibility or focus from opponents. Right now, he's all upside. Next year, he won't be all upside.

Having said all that, the Booker situation is interesting to me. I'm not sure I agree with Booker's draft stock either. He really didn't show too much at UK other than the ability to hit 3-pointers and finish layups on the break. Those are certainly valued skills in the NBA, but are they really enough to warrant a high draft pick? Like Allen, I feel like his secondary/tertiary role on a really good team is doing him favors in terms of draft stock right now.


I've also given some thought to the comps for Derryck lately--I've heard some hodge podge of hybrid strengths and weaknesses of Kyrie, Tyus, and JWill (all very compelling). I'd like to introduce another, although I anticipate some push-back or refining: Sean Dockery. I recall Dockery had some of the best handles I had seen at Duke in recent memory (obviously before Kyrie arrived for his brief affair with Duke hoops), and he also came with some limitations shooting and in decision-making. Dockery's career didn't end up where we might've hoped, but he was a contributor and the comp certainly tempers expectations from the Kyrie-Tyus-JWill camp. Perhaps a rich man's Dockery, or a further lumping of Dockery's skillset with the three aforementioned extraordinary lead guards.

Dockery is an interesting example that I hadn't considered. There are certainly some parallels (the athleticism, the score-first mentality, the prolific high school career). I hope that he's more PG-ready than Dockery was. Though it is worth noting that I recall Dockery playing really well in pre-draft camps (not enough to get drafted, but he at least got noticed), so it is certainly possible that some of the problem in his development was just a bad fit. Either way, hopefully Thornton is closer to the Irving comp than the Dockery comp. I certainly don't expect him to be as good as Irving, but I do hope he is more ready than Dockery was.

Monmouth77
04-23-2015, 03:30 PM
Yeah, I stand by my belief that, if he had gone pro, Allen's stock might have taken a hit once he got into pre-draft workouts. We're talking about a kid who basically had just a handful of good games last year and was otherwise completely un-noteworthy. So the discussion that he would definitely go in the first round this year had he come out seems... knee-jerk to me. But, I've been wrong before on a kid's draft stock, and Allen could certainly surprise me next year. I'm hopeful he does surprise me because that likely means we're in for a big year. But I don't think he can just be good next year and become a first-round pick. Sort of like how James Michael McAdoo went from being a lottery pick as a frosh to being undrafted as a junior; next year we'll see any of the warts in his game as he is asked to play a more prominent role, whereas this year we didn't have that pressure/responsibility or focus from opponents. Right now, he's all upside. Next year, he won't be all upside.

Having said all that, the Booker situation is interesting to me. I'm not sure I agree with Booker's draft stock either. He really didn't show too much at UK other than the ability to hit 3-pointers and finish layups on the break. Those are certainly valued skills in the NBA, but are they really enough to warrant a high draft pick? Like Allen, I feel like his secondary/tertiary role on a really good team is doing him favors in terms of draft stock right now.





Dockery is an interesting example that I hadn't considered. There are certainly some parallels (the athleticism, the score-first mentality, the prolific high school career). I hope that he's more PG-ready than Dockery was. Though it is worth noting that I recall Dockery playing really well in pre-draft camps (not enough to get drafted, but he at least got noticed), so it is certainly possible that some of the problem in his development was just a bad fit. Either way, hopefully Thornton is closer to the Irving comp than the Dockery comp. I certainly don't expect him to be as good as Irving, but I do hope he is more ready than Dockery was.


I am not sure if this is what you may have meant, at least in part, about "fit," but I feel like Dockery was limited in a sense by the surrounding personnel and depth charts on his Duke teams. He was more or less blocked by Chris Duhon for his first two years (appropriately so) and by the time he had a real chance to earn a lead role, the team's composition on the whole lent itself more to a deliberate half court style structured around getting open shots for Redick. He was a nice defender with quick hands and was part of our really good halfcourt defense in 2005. But he did not quite develop into the kind of slasher and finisher that I think the '05 and '06 teams probably could have used. I may be wrong, but I don't remember him as a great leaper, which may be something that distinguishes Thornton and makes him a little more like J-Will. Dockery (like Irving) was more of a below the rim kind of guy. Would have been interesting to see him on a more up-tempo version of Duke, where his speed and ballhandling skills may have played better. I feel like he could have been great on a team like '13 Louisville where he would have fit in with Siva and Russ Smith.

CDu
04-23-2015, 04:17 PM
I am not sure if this is what you may have meant, at least in part, about "fit," but I feel like Dockery was limited in a sense by the surrounding personnel and depth charts on his Duke teams. He was more or less blocked by Chris Duhon for his first two years (appropriately so) and by the time he had a real chance to earn a lead role, the team's composition on the whole lent itself more to a deliberate half court style structured around getting open shots for Redick. He was a nice defender with quick hands and was part of our really good halfcourt defense in 2005. But he did not quite develop into the kind of slasher and finisher that I think the '05 and '06 teams probably could have used. I may be wrong, but I don't remember him as a great leaper, which may be something that distinguishes Thornton and makes him a little more like J-Will. Dockery (like Irving) was more of a below the rim kind of guy. Would have been interesting to see him on a more up-tempo version of Duke, where his speed and ballhandling skills may have played better. I feel like he could have been great on a team like '13 Louisville where he would have fit in with Siva and Russ Smith.

Yeah, that's more or less what I meant (at least the second part with regard to being more a half-court-focused team). But essentially, the offenses were always designed around other guys' strengths. The first two years, as you note, Dockery was stuck behind Chris Duhon. By his junior year, the established stars were Redick, Williams, and Ewing. And by that point, the team had focused on a more deliberate style to maximize the skills of Redick and Williams. Same thing his senior year, where he also gave up PG duties to Greg Paulus (he largely did the same as a junior to Daniel Ewing).

So yeah, basically Dockery was a lead guard all through high school, and he excelled at it. He averaged 28 points per game as an inner-city Chicago kid, which is no small accomplishment. The kid could ball. It's just that his game never quite meshed with what Coach K wanted out of the offense. Had he been allowed to play his game, he'd have probably put up much better stats than he did. Though in that scenario, the team probably wouldn't have been as good.

bounce840
04-23-2015, 04:46 PM
You really need to learn to use punctuation. I have a difficult time understanding your posts.
Yeah well put it this way don't know which guys are going next year. Hope he has a great year and if he wants too go pro next year and is ready then he will probably go. By the ways Jones faced similar concerns this year about strength.

-jk
04-23-2015, 05:18 PM
My posts may be hard to read but I don't really come on here and expect to be tutored. I have enough brain cramps from school. Yeah, well I was talking about either one. Is Allen a two and done and is Thornton a one and done?? I believe the whole board was just underrating Allen's ability that's all.

You'll find this covered in the Posting Guidelines (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?21833-Decorum-amp-Posting-Guidelines-%28Please-read-before-posting!%29) sticky at the top:

"Some things that aren't infractions but are really, really irritating to the community are inattention to spelling (particularly player names), poor grammar, improper capitalization and punctuation, and texting/IM style shorthand (acronyms are fine, but if u r lazy, you'll annoy others)..."

Regards,

-jk

jimsumner
04-23-2015, 06:08 PM
You'll find this covered in the Posting Guidelines (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?21833-Decorum-amp-Posting-Guidelines-%28Please-read-before-posting!%29) sticky at the top:

"Some things that aren't infractions but are really, really irritating to the community are inattention to spelling (particularly player names), poor grammar, improper capitalization and punctuation, and texting/IM style shorthand (acronyms are fine, but if u r lazy, you'll annoy others)..."

Regards,

-jk

My feeling is that a poster who cannot take the time to make their posts comprehensible probably hasn't earned the time it takes to read them.

We're not talking Manhattan Project here. Just basic, middle-school stuff.

In my experience placing periods at the end of sentences doesn't generally result in brain cramps.

Back to your regular programming.

bounce840
04-23-2015, 08:00 PM
My feeling is that a poster who cannot take the time to make their posts comprehensible probably hasn't earned the time it takes to read them.

We're not talking Manhattan Project here. Just basic, middle-school stuff.

In my experience placing periods at the end of sentences doesn't generally result in brain cramps.

Back to your regular programming.

Yeah well I don't have time to worry all day about Duke basketball and how to spell someone's name. I have enough stress in my daily life to worry about the correct spelling. This is an escape from a life of drudgery. I just try to come on here and escape that's all I respect everyone on here and just yesterday. Hopefully Thornton is great and he helps lead us to a sixth championship.

bounce840
04-23-2015, 08:05 PM
Sorry everybody its been a trying few months for me is all had a family member in the hospital.

lotusland
04-23-2015, 08:57 PM
Sorry everybody its been a trying few months for me is all had a family member in the hospital.

For what it's worth I think all the griping from the spelling and grammar police is silly. I wouldn't worry about someone gets "offended". It's their choice and not my problem. I use my phone to check DBR most of the time. We all have the option to scroll past posts that aren't pleasing enough to us.

bounce840
04-23-2015, 09:08 PM
For what it's worth I think all the griping from the spelling and grammar police is silly. I wouldn't worry about someone gets "offended". It's their choice and not my problem. I use my phone to check DBR most of the time. We all have the option to scroll past posts that aren't pleasing enough to us.

I do too I mean I am sorry about messing up with grammar I was once in the spelling bee. Can someone please give me a scouting report on Thornton?? Lotus land have you ever seen him play??

lotusland
04-23-2015, 09:50 PM
I do too I mean I am sorry about messing up with grammar I was once in the spelling bee. Can someone please give me a scouting report on Thornton?? Lotus land have you ever seen him play??

Nope.

gumbomoop
04-24-2015, 12:14 AM
Can someone please give me a scouting report on Thornton??

Several people have done so, in this very thread. Check out useful comments in posts # 11, 70, 123, and especially 168.

Edouble
04-24-2015, 03:14 AM
Sorry everybody its been a trying few months for me is all had a family member in the hospital.

My grandfather went into hospice, and died a few days later. I had to go to Tampa for a memorial service during the ACC tournament. I was able to use correct syntax and grammar during this time.

Sorry, but first it was school, now it's family issues.

People are just going to start ignoring your posts if you don't shape up a bit. That's the culture of the EK Forum.

yancem
04-24-2015, 01:08 PM
I've also given some thought to the comps for Derryck lately--I've heard some hodge podge of hybrid strengths and weaknesses of Kyrie, Tyus, and JWill (all very compelling). I'd like to introduce another, although I anticipate some push-back or refining: Sean Dockery. I recall Dockery had some of the best handles I had seen at Duke in recent memory (obviously before Kyrie arrived for his brief affair with Duke hoops), and he also came with some limitations shooting and in decision-making. Dockery's career didn't end up where we might've hoped, but he was a contributor and the comp certainly tempers expectations from the Kyrie-Tyus-JWill camp. Perhaps a rich man's Dockery, or a further lumping of Dockery's skillset with the three aforementioned extraordinary lead guards.

Sean Dockery, for me at least, is one of the biggest mysteries of Duke basketball. Now before I say why, I want to make it clear that he is one of my all time favorite Duke players. I'm not sure that there has been anyone that seemed as proud to wear the Duke jersey or represented the school any better. He was the consummate teammate. That being said, I can not fathom why he didn't have a bigger career at Duke. His high school stats were insane and it wasn't like Semi who put up big numbers against inferior competition, he played in Chicago! I wish I couldn't find his career stats (google failed me) but if I remember correctly he had something like 2k points, 1k assists and 500 rebounds and a bunch of steals. Those are some crazy high school stats. I'm not sure if he was just an early bloomer and plateaued or was never put in a position to fully utilize his strengths but I always thought that he could have done more on the court. Regardless of why he didn't match expectations, he stuck around Duke, supported his team and earned his degree. Could he have improved his chances at making it in the nba somewhere else? I have no idea but I'm proud that he wore the jersey of the team I root for.

I do think that Dockery is a decent comp for Thornton (although Thornton has much more hops). If Thornton ends up being half the teammate that Dockery was than Duke is lucky to have him. If he can live up the expectations that I had for Dockery, we could be up for a fun season next year.

Edouble
04-24-2015, 02:23 PM
Sean Dockery, for me at least, is one of the biggest mysteries of Duke basketball. Now before I say why, I want to make it clear that he is one of my all time favorite Duke players. I'm not sure that there has been anyone that seemed as proud to wear the Duke jersey or represented the school any better. He was the consummate teammate. That being said, I can not fathom why he didn't have a bigger career at Duke. His high school stats were insane and it wasn't like Semi who put up big numbers against inferior competition, he played in Chicago! I wish I couldn't find his career stats (google failed me) but if I remember correctly he had something like 2k points, 1k assists and 500 rebounds and a bunch of steals. Those are some crazy high school stats. I'm not sure if he was just an early bloomer and plateaued or was never put in a position to fully utilize his strengths but I always thought that he could have done more on the court. Regardless of why he didn't match expectations, he stuck around Duke, supported his team and earned his degree. Could he have improved his chances at making it in the nba somewhere else? I have no idea but I'm proud that he wore the jersey of the team I root for.

I do think that Dockery is a decent comp for Thornton (although Thornton has much more hops). If Thornton ends up being half the teammate that Dockery was than Duke is lucky to have him. If he can live up the expectations that I had for Dockery, we could be up for a fun season next year.

I'll sign on to all this, although it is a bit off topic. I'll add that I know that Coach K had to really go to bat with the admissions office to get Dockery through, so it was surprising that he didn't contribute more on the court.

JNort
04-24-2015, 03:25 PM
Sorry everybody its been a trying few months for me is all had a family member in the hospital.

Don't worry about it. The one fault I have ever found with this site is that many posters think and truly believe they are holier than thou. I once got negative rep on here because my phone autocorrected my word to a different one and I never noticed.

JNort
04-24-2015, 03:28 PM
Sean Dockery, for me at least, is one of the biggest mysteries of Duke basketball. Now before I say why, I want to make it clear that he is one of my all time favorite Duke players. I'm not sure that there has been anyone that seemed as proud to wear the Duke jersey or represented the school any better. He was the consummate teammate. That being said, I can not fathom why he didn't have a bigger career at Duke. His high school stats were insane and it wasn't like Semi who put up big numbers against inferior competition, he played in Chicago! I wish I couldn't find his career stats (google failed me) but if I remember correctly he had something like 2k points, 1k assists and 500 rebounds and a bunch of steals. Those are some crazy high school stats. I'm not sure if he was just an early bloomer and plateaued or was never put in a position to fully utilize his strengths but I always thought that he could have done more on the court. Regardless of why he didn't match expectations, he stuck around Duke, supported his team and earned his degree. Could he have improved his chances at making it in the nba somewhere else? I have no idea but I'm proud that he wore the jersey of the team I root for.

I do think that Dockery is a decent comp for Thornton (although Thornton has much more hops). If Thornton ends up being half the teammate that Dockery was than Duke is lucky to have him. If he can live up the expectations that I had for Dockery, we could be up for a fun season next year.

I keep hearing about his (Thornton) athleticism but in every highlight video I've seen he doesn't appear to be a great leaper. Better than most high school kids but nothing to generate any buzz

Edouble
04-24-2015, 04:30 PM
Don't worry about it. The one fault I have ever found with this site is that many posters think and truly believe they are holier than thou. I once got negative rep on here because my phone autocorrected my word to a different one and I never noticed.

This is sort of why I was attracted to the board in the first place. Not the holier-than-thou types, but the emphasis on grammar, spelling player's names correctly (I have a name that gets misspelled all the damn time), syntax, punctuation, etc. There is no tolerance here for the things that go on over the rest of the internet.

I tried to spork you to make up for the flames, not that I was the one that gave them to you (I hope), but I have to spread some around first. :(

Edouble
04-24-2015, 04:31 PM
I keep hearing about his (Thornton) athleticism but in every highlight video I've seen he doesn't appear to be a great leaper. Better than most high school kids but nothing to generate any buzz

I believe it was mentioned upthread that you need to be sure to watch the most recent videos, as he has developed by leaps and bounds (pun intended) over just the last season. I haven't watched any videos yet. Maybe someone that thinks DT is a great athlete can post the evidence?

Henderson
04-24-2015, 04:42 PM
I keep hearing about his (Thornton) athleticism but in every highlight video I've seen he doesn't appear to be a great leaper. Better than most high school kids but nothing to generate any buzz

What was the highest you saw Tyus or Quinn leap to make a play this year? Make up a highlight video and then come back and explain how Thornton is incapable of that.

Edouble
04-24-2015, 04:49 PM
What was the highest you saw Tyus or Quinn leap to make a play this year? Make up a highlight video and then come back and explain how Thornton is incapable of that.

I think you're missing his point. He's not saying that Thornton is not capable because he's not athletic enough... he's just saying that he keeps hearing about Thornton's high level athleticism, but hasn't seen video proof anywhere.

I trust that you feel that neither Quinn nor Tyus are way above average in the athleticism department. I believe the poster would say that Thornton has been advertised at a higher level of athleticism than either of those players, but not to qualify Thornton as better or worse for it. In fact, I don't think there was a direct comparison to any past players, I think he was just asking "Just how athletic is Derryck Thornton", from my understanding.

CDu
04-24-2015, 04:54 PM
Sean Dockery, for me at least, is one of the biggest mysteries of Duke basketball. Now before I say why, I want to make it clear that he is one of my all time favorite Duke players. I'm not sure that there has been anyone that seemed as proud to wear the Duke jersey or represented the school any better. He was the consummate teammate. That being said, I can not fathom why he didn't have a bigger career at Duke. His high school stats were insane and it wasn't like Semi who put up big numbers against inferior competition, he played in Chicago! I wish I couldn't find his career stats (google failed me) but if I remember correctly he had something like 2k points, 1k assists and 500 rebounds and a bunch of steals. Those are some crazy high school stats. I'm not sure if he was just an early bloomer and plateaued or was never put in a position to fully utilize his strengths but I always thought that he could have done more on the court. Regardless of why he didn't match expectations, he stuck around Duke, supported his team and earned his degree. Could he have improved his chances at making it in the nba somewhere else? I have no idea but I'm proud that he wore the jersey of the team I root for.

I do think that Dockery is a decent comp for Thornton (although Thornton has much more hops). If Thornton ends up being half the teammate that Dockery was than Duke is lucky to have him. If he can live up the expectations that I had for Dockery, we could be up for a fun season next year.

Yeah, Dockery averaged like 28 points, 7 assists, 4 rebounds and 4 steals per game as a senior playing in Chicago. He was an absolute baller in high school. I think the issue was that he was a true lead guard who excelled best in a freelance, iso-style game. But when he came to Duke, he wasn't given that freedom. As a frosh, he was a little-used backup to Chris Duhon. As a soph, he played a little bit more but still fairly sparingly. And when he was in, he was asked to defer to guys like Redick, Ewing, and Dahntay Jones/Luol Deng. By the time he was a junior, Redick, Shelden Williams, and Ewing were the stars, and we ran a very deliberate offense focused on maximizing those guys' opportunities. And then, by his senior year, we had the introduction of Paulus and McRoberts to the mix.

So basically, Dockery never got to be the lead guard at Duke. Probably because, as a lead guard, he was capable of prolific stats, including prolific turnover stats. In other words, he wasn't going to be as efficient as we needed our PG to be given that we had Redick and Williams as go-to guys. And unfortunately, I don't think he ever quite figured out how to mesh his skill set within the offensive gameplan Duke wanted to run at the time.

That said, when he went to the pre-draft camps in 2006, he was one of the best PGs there. Granted, those camps tended to be next-tier guys and not the best of the best. But he clearly showed he had more skills than were exhibited at Duke. Now, I must say this is just a theory, and I don't have any more facts to support this other than those stated above. But it seems reasonable to me.

Sometimes, guys skill sets just don't quite mesh with the team around them. A similar thing happened to McRoberts (to a lesser degree), where he got stuck playing a back-to-the-basket half-court game because we didn't have the horses to run an up-tempo offense and we didn't have anyone else in the post. So he didn't produce quite as much as many had hoped because he was asked to do things he wasn't best suited to do. He still did very well, but not as well as could have been.

If Dockery had been a senior, lead guard for Duke in 2007, maybe he has a terrific year for us. If McRoberts had gotten to play alongside Kyle Singler or Mason Plumlee or Jahlil Okafor, maybe he has a spectacular career.

Henderson
04-24-2015, 05:00 PM
I think you're missing his point. He's not saying that Thornton is not capable because he's not athletic enough... he's just saying that he keeps hearing about Thornton's high level athleticism, but hasn't seen video proof anywhere.

I trust that you feel that neither Quinn nor Tyus are way above average in the athleticism department. I believe the poster would say that Thornton has been advertised at a higher level of athleticism than either of those players, but not to qualify Thornton as better or worse for it. In fact, I don't think there was a direct comparison to any past players, I think he was just asking "Just how athletic is Derryck Thornton", from my understanding.

Nah, I got the point and was just too harsh. My apologies. What I meant to say was that Thornton's athleticism videos are out there, but you don't need scary athleticism or leaping ability to play point guard. Witness Tyus and Quinn.

Sorry JNort. Owe you a beer.

roywhite
04-24-2015, 05:19 PM
Nah, I got the point and was just too harsh. My apologies. What I meant to say was that Thornton's athleticism videos are out there, but you don't need scary athleticism or leaping ability to play point guard. Witness Tyus and Quinn.

Sorry JNort. Owe you a beer.

The athleticism I've seen so far from Thornton, and hope to see as he develops, involves quickness and lateral movement. That, along with good length, seem to give him important tools to be an excellent defender, and further strength training should help also.

Jump out of the gym type athleticism? No, probably not a Westbrook or (a healthy) Derrick Rose.

tylervinyard
04-24-2015, 05:41 PM
Seems pretty athletic to me https://youtu.be/5OfsyquwXZQ

dukelifer
04-24-2015, 06:55 PM
Seems pretty athletic to me https://youtu.be/5OfsyquwXZQ

Kid is effectively bolted to to floor. Too bad- hopefully Coach K can boost his athleticism as he did for Grayson who was similarly statue like in high school.

MarkD83
04-24-2015, 07:03 PM
Seems pretty athletic to me https://youtu.be/5OfsyquwXZQ

Oh no...he is wearing number 5. I hope he changes numbers otherwise he will be hit with multiple Ts before he even plays his first game.

Henderson
04-24-2015, 07:05 PM
Kid is effectively bolted to to floor. Too bad- hopefully Coach K can boost his athleticism as he did for Grayson who was similarly statue like in high school.

:cool:

I gotta get me some new bolts.

JNort
04-24-2015, 07:56 PM
Nah, I got the point and was just too harsh. My apologies. What I meant to say was that Thornton's athleticism videos are out there, but you don't need scary athleticism or leaping ability to play point guard. Witness Tyus and Quinn.

Sorry JNort. Owe you a beer.

I wasn't trying to say anything about his ability to play point. Just that most seem to say his strengths are attacking on offense and his athleticism and i just don't think he is an elite athlete ala Justice and Grayson. Haven't even seen him catch an oop yet in the 3 videos I've seen. I like him though, if he can become a respectable shooter from behind the arc then watch out!

Maybe it has somthing to do with his size, guess I'm not accounting for it. Kyrie and Austin both had better ups in their videos when they came out but I think they might have just been bigger making it easier to throw it down

subzero02
04-24-2015, 08:09 PM
He reminds me of a slightly less athletic Jwill... He seems to have a solid build.

jimsumner
04-25-2015, 03:53 PM
I wasn't trying to say anything about his ability to play point. Just that most seem to say his strengths are attacking on offense and his athleticism and i just don't think he is an elite athlete ala Justice and Grayson. Haven't even seen him catch an oop yet in the 3 videos I've seen. I like him though, if he can become a respectable shooter from behind the arc then watch out!

Maybe it has somthing to do with his size, guess I'm not accounting for it. Kyrie and Austin both had better ups in their videos when they came out but I think they might have just been bigger making it easier to throw it down

How many "oops" did we see from Amaker, Hurley, Duhon, Scheyer or T. Jones?

On a check-list of things one wants from a point guard, I suspect being on the receiving end of a lob for a dunk would not be near the top.

plimnko
04-25-2015, 06:08 PM
The athleticism I've seen so far from Thornton, and hope to see as he develops, involves quickness and lateral movement. That, along with good length, seem to give him important tools to be an excellent defender, and further strength training should help also.

Jump out of the gym type athleticism? No, probably not a Westbrook or (a healthy) Derrick Rose.



i wish i was that unathletic!! i watched vrankovic's tape too. i like this kid. am i too far off comparing him to mitch mcgary??

subzero02
04-25-2015, 06:19 PM
i wish i was that unathletic!! i watched vrankovic's tape too. i like this kid. am i too far off comparing him to mitch mcgary??

Only if you consider comparing Chris Collins to Michael Jordan being far off...

Kedsy
04-25-2015, 10:08 PM
i wish i was that unathletic!! i watched vrankovic's tape too. i like this kid. am i too far off comparing him to mitch mcgary??

Yes.

JNort
04-25-2015, 10:14 PM
How many "oops" did we see from Amaker, Hurley, Duhon, Scheyer or T. Jones?

On a check-list of things one wants from a point guard, I suspect being on the receiving end of a lob for a dunk would not be near the top.

None... which is my point. Not sure what you are saying. You post just kinda agreed with me

I think Roy is one of the only posters who got what I was saying and answered my question at the same time. I just now saw his comment and I totally agree

jimsumner
04-26-2015, 12:17 AM
None... which is my point. Not sure what you are saying. You post just kinda agreed with me

I think Roy is one of the only posters who got what I was saying and answered my question at the same time. I just now saw his comment and I totally agree

What part of this am I misunderstanding? "I just don't think he is an elite athlete ala Justice [sic] and Grayson. Haven't even seen him catch an oop yet in the 3 videos I've seen."

Why would you want to see him "catch an oop?" Why mention it as an implied flaw if you don't think it's important?

Was Tommy Amaker not an elite athlete? Duke didn't start tracking dunks until 1986 but in 1986 and 1987 Amaker had zero dunks. Bobby Hurley was as quick as a cat and he had never had a dunk. I don't care if my point guard can catch an oop. I'd much rather he be able to throw one. And I'm sure not going to compare a 6-1 point guard's ability to dunk to that of a 6-6 combo forward. Apples and oranges.

mo.st.dukie
04-26-2015, 12:28 AM
I wasn't trying to say anything about his ability to play point. Just that most seem to say his strengths are attacking on offense and his athleticism and i just don't think he is an elite athlete ala Justice and Grayson. Haven't even seen him catch an oop yet in the 3 videos I've seen. I like him though, if he can become a respectable shooter from behind the arc then watch out!

Maybe it has somthing to do with his size, guess I'm not accounting for it. Kyrie and Austin both had better ups in their videos when they came out but I think they might have just been bigger making it easier to throw it down

That's your judge of athleticism? Whether he his throwing down oops in a highlight video? Ok, but there's more to athleticism than just the ability to jump high enough to throw down alley oops. His speed, quickness, and agility are at a high level. Changing of direction and changing of speed effortlessly and fluidly is also a good indicator of athleticism and Thornton seems to have that ability. Also range of motion and flexibility are good indicators of athleticism. From what I've seen Thornton is a pretty athletic point guard.

And actually that was the criticism of Kyrie Irving both coming out of high school and when he was entering the draft, that he didn't throw down enough dunks and was not athletic enough like Derrick Rose or John Wall. That was one of the reasons why a lot of people, a lot of Cavs fans, didn't think he was #1 pick worthy and that Derrick Williams or Kemba Walker would be better choices. Kyrie still doesn't dunk much but nobody questions his athleticism, his quickness and agility are elite.

Andre Dawkins could throw down some nasty dunks, go look at his high school highlight tapes. But other than the ability to jump high Andre wasn't a great athlete even on the college level. To me, Rasheed was a much better athlete than Andre even though Andre had better leaping ability.

ricks68
04-26-2015, 12:49 AM
None... which is my point. Not sure what you are saying. You post just kinda agreed with me

I think Roy is one of the only posters who got what I was saying and answered my question at the same time. I just now saw his comment and I totally agree


I agree with RW, also. Thornton appeared very quick and fast to me on the videos---very fast. He seems to be able to go laterally very quickly, then, when he has the defender off balance, he explodes toward the basket in the opposite direction.

ricks

subzero02
04-26-2015, 12:54 AM
How many "oops" did we see from Amaker, Hurley, Duhon, Scheyer or T. Jones?

On a check-list of things one wants from a point guard, I suspect being on the receiving end of a lob for a dunk would not be near the top.

I recall at least 1 alley-oop thrown down by Duhon... It might've been in an open practice or exhibition game though.

Son of Jarhead
04-26-2015, 01:43 AM
Seems pretty athletic to me https://youtu.be/5OfsyquwXZQ

Is that Chase Jeter whose chest he takes it right into for the score just after the one minute mark?

I like Thornton's game. Not afraid to attack the basket, even against the big guys, and finish through contact. Good handle. Has that all important floater. Nice step back move. Quick change of direction. Nice mid-range game. I like the hesitation move, too. From the stats, he needs more consistency on his jump shot, but I like what I see so far. Looking forward to watching him grow and improve while wearing the Duke Blue & White.

dukelifer
04-26-2015, 07:49 AM
i wish i was that unathletic!! i watched vrankovic's tape too. i like this kid. am i too far off comparing him to mitch mcgary??

In the videos in which he never misses or makes a mistake- he can be compared to the best centers on the planet. He is solid and should get much better in time. Mcgary was much more developed as a player coming out of high school- I think ranked in the top 5 - but they do resemble each other in the face.

Chillduck
04-26-2015, 08:47 AM
Oh no...he is wearing number 5. I hope he changes numbers otherwise he will be hit with multiple Ts before he even plays his first game.

We had another pretty good #5 this year who was the Final Four MOP! I kinda like whoever is wearing #5 right now!

Kedsy
04-26-2015, 09:13 AM
That was one of the reasons why a lot of people, a lot of Cavs fans, didn't think he was #1 pick worthy and that Derrick Williams or Kemba Walker would be better choices.

Kemba Walker? I wasn't in Cleveland but I don't remember anybody touting Kemba for #1 in the 2011 draft. Or even top 5.

Henderson
04-26-2015, 09:29 AM
Is that Chase Jeter whose chest he takes it right into for the score just after the one minute mark?


Good catch. That looks like the January matchup between Findlay Prep (Thornton) and Bishop Gorman (Jeter).

At least 40% of incoming Duke freshmen this next season will be from Las Vegas high schools.

And if you haven't been following another Vegas Duke offeree, Troy Brown, you might want to begin. 2017 class.

Troublemaker
04-26-2015, 10:16 AM
Another Derryck mixtape was dropped yesterday and I think it's now his best one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUeGlAwPEzg

Truth be told, I think this guy just cut together clips from previous mixtapes (maybe Kaze can confirm, since he was assigned Lead Scout on Derryck mixtapes), but this guy took all of the best parts from the other mixtapes. Watching this new compilation, you can really get a sense of what Derryck would look like if he puts it all together to reach his potential. He's an elite talent with crazy speed and ball-handling.

mo.st.dukie
04-26-2015, 11:45 AM
Kemba Walker? I wasn't in Cleveland but I don't remember anybody touting Kemba for #1 in the 2011 draft. Or even top 5.

Yep. Remember, he was coming off that huge championship run. A lot of people at that time thought he was better option than Kyrie.

FireOgilvie
04-26-2015, 11:48 AM
I wasn't trying to say anything about his ability to play point. Just that most seem to say his strengths are attacking on offense and his athleticism and i just don't think he is an elite athlete ala Justice and Grayson. Haven't even seen him catch an oop yet in the 3 videos I've seen. I like him though, if he can become a respectable shooter from behind the arc then watch out!

Maybe it has somthing to do with his size, guess I'm not accounting for it. Kyrie and Austin both had better ups in their videos when they came out but I think they might have just been bigger making it easier to throw it down

Here you go: https://youtu.be/zUeGlAwPEzg?t=1m

jimsumner
04-26-2015, 12:53 PM
For the record, Kyrie Irving had exactly zero dunks in his 303 minutes at Duke. Austin Rivers had four dunks in his 1,129 minutes at Duke. One every 8.5 games. Chris Duhon had 22 in 144 games, one every seven games.

Jason Williams and Johnny Dawkins are the only Duke players of comparable height to Thornton who dunked all that much and both spent a good portion of their college careers playing off the ball.

Amaker, Hurley, Avery (2 career dunks at Duke), Scheyer, Ty. Jones. Non-dunkers as a general rule.

So, being able to dunk just doesn't seem to be a priority for the point-guard position, a position at which Duke has had some success.

Jumping high is part of being an elite athlete, but so are quickness, speed, hand-eye co-ordination, balance, strength and vision, among other variables. Carmen Wallace and Tony Moore were spectacular leapers but I don't think anyone regarded either of them as elite athletes.

Remember Casey Sanders? As mobile a 6-11 player as Duke has ever had and he could jump out of the proverbial gym. In high school, he routinely had point-rebound-block-triple doubles. If we had just looked at those aspects of his game on high-school tape, we might have viewed him as an elite athlete.

Until we saw him play in college and noted his poor co-ordination, balance and strength.

So, there's a lot more to it than slammin' down 'oops.

At the risk of being the board scold, I'm a little reluctant to place too much weight on highlight reels, because, they are, well highlights. I love looking at them but try not to take too much from them. I don't think we'll see a lot of youtube videos of guys dribbling off their feet out of bounds or air-mailing a pass into the second row.

Watching Vrankovic videos and equating him to McGary might be an example of over-exuberance in this area.

Let me give you an example. Marty Pocius made 19 3-pointers at Duke, had 19 steals, one block and seven dunks. Had I access to all the game tapes and the necessary technical expertise, I could make a video that would highlight these positive plays and make Pocius look like the second coming of Jerry West.

But I wouldn't show any of the 57 3-pointers he missed, the 43 turnovers or the matador defense.

Because that's the nature of the beast.

Troublemaker
04-26-2015, 01:26 PM
At the risk of being the board scold, I'm a little reluctant to place too much weight on highlight reels, because, they are, well highlights. I love looking at them but try not to take too much from them. I don't think we'll see a lot of youtube videos of guys dribbling off their feet out of bounds or air-mailing a pass into the second row.

Watching Vrankovic videos and equating him to McGary might be an example of over-exuberance in this area.

Let me give you an example. Marty Pocius made 19 3-pointers at Duke, had 19 steals, one block and seven dunks. Had I access to all the game tapes and the necessary technical expertise, I could make a video that would highlight these positive plays and make Pocius look like the second coming of Jerry West.

But I wouldn't show any of the 57 3-pointers he missed, the 43 turnovers or the matador defense.

Because that's the nature of the beast.

That's sound advice, Mr. Sumner. Highlight reels are fun to watch (and many of them have really good accompanying music/beats, imo) and they probably are valuable at giving the viewer a quick sense of the player's style of play, his preferences and strengths. But, for sure, it is tough for mixtapes to reveal weaknesses, except perhaps for lack of athleticism or strength sometimes. It's best to combine mixtape-watching with scouting reports and stats and watching a live game, if possible. And even then, if you do all those four things, you can still be surprised by the player that shows up in the fall after several months of working with trainers and coaches from a high-level college basketball program.

yancem
04-26-2015, 04:34 PM
For the record, Kyrie Irving had exactly zero dunks in his 303 minutes at Duke. Austin Rivers had four dunks in his 1,129 minutes at Duke. One every 8.5 games. Chris Duhon had 22 in 144 games, one every seven games.

Jason Williams and Johnny Dawkins are the only Duke players of comparable height to Thornton who dunked all that much and both spent a good portion of their college careers playing off the ball.

Amaker, Hurley, Avery (2 career dunks at Duke), Scheyer, Ty. Jones. Non-dunkers as a general rule.

So, being able to dunk just doesn't seem to be a priority for the point-guard position, a position at which Duke has had some success.

Jumping high is part of being an elite athlete, but so are quickness, speed, hand-eye co-ordination, balance, strength and vision, among other variables. Carmen Wallace and Tony Moore were spectacular leapers but I don't think anyone regarded either of them as elite athletes.

Remember Casey Sanders? As mobile a 6-11 player as Duke has ever had and he could jump out of the proverbial gym. In high school, he routinely had point-rebound-block-triple doubles. If we had just looked at those aspects of his game on high-school tape, we might have viewed him as an elite athlete.

Until we saw him play in college and noted his poor co-ordination, balance and strength.

So, there's a lot more to it than slammin' down 'oops.

At the risk of being the board scold, I'm a little reluctant to place too much weight on highlight reels, because, they are, well highlights. I love looking at them but try not to take too much from them. I don't think we'll see a lot of youtube videos of guys dribbling off their feet out of bounds or air-mailing a pass into the second row.

Watching Vrankovic videos and equating him to McGary might be an example of over-exuberance in this area.

Let me give you an example. Marty Pocius made 19 3-pointers at Duke, had 19 steals, one block and seven dunks. Had I access to all the game tapes and the necessary technical expertise, I could make a video that would highlight these positive plays and make Pocius look like the second coming of Jerry West.

But I wouldn't show any of the 57 3-pointers he missed, the 43 turnovers or the matador defense.

Because that's the nature of the beast.

IDK, I remember Sanders being pretty darn athletic. His problem was that he has small hands and really struggled to catch/hold onto the ball. He was very fluid and fast up and down the court during the time Boozer was out in 2001.

Kedsy
04-26-2015, 05:03 PM
Yep. Remember, he was coming off that huge championship run. A lot of people at that time thought he was better option than Kyrie.

OK, if you say so. Obviously none of those people were NBA GMs, NBA scouts, or experts, because Kemba went 9th in that draft, and the mocks beforehand (http://www.nba.com/hornets/11_mock_drafts.html) all had Kyrie 1st and most of them had Kemba 9th or worse (and pretty much all of them had Kemba 7th or worse -- of the 19 mocks reported in the above link, the only mock that had Kemba better than 7th was from a Bobcats' intern, who may or may not still have a job).

subzero02
04-26-2015, 05:45 PM
Kemba Walker? I wasn't in Cleveland but I don't remember anybody touting Kemba for #1 in the 2011 draft. Or even top 5.

Ms. Hawaii, who was stalking Kyrie, made a video in which she said Kemba Walker should be drafted ahead of him. Amongst NBA analysts and individuals without a screw loose, Kyrie was considered to be the better prospect.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rfy4hGbY0Gk

jimsumner
04-26-2015, 06:27 PM
IDK, I remember Sanders being pretty darn athletic. His problem was that he has small hands and really struggled to catch/hold onto the ball. He was very fluid and fast up and down the court during the time Boozer was out in 2001.

But that's my point. Being able to catch/hold on to the ball is part of being a good basketball athlete.

IMO.