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rifraf
04-15-2015, 02:33 PM
Five gay closeted college basketball coaches talk about the deep-seated homophobia and forced lifestyle contracts that are driving them to suicidal thoughts and out of their profession. Right now, no one is doing anything about it.

Pretty strong article here. (http://www.outsports.com/2015/4/15/8417315/gay-college-basketball-coaches-closet)

I know Coach K made comments before the Final 4 that he would not be making any comments on the political situation regarding the recent Indiana Bill that was passed. I think that's the right move in the context of the week leading up to the event. He's a coach, and his job and role is to get his team ready. I appreciated the joint statement from the four coaches and that that was appropriate.

Now that the tourney is behind us, I still don't expect K to come out and make a statement. However, K has always been more than a coach and is considered a great leader. I hope, and expect, that both he and our university administration would not force lifestyle contracts or tolerate a culture like the ones described in the article. I know it isn't Duke specific, but we're all college basketball fans and I thought this was important to share and would hopefully generate some good discussion.

weezie
04-15-2015, 05:19 PM
So much unnecessary pain and sadness. I feel terrible for all of them.

Tripping William
04-15-2015, 08:46 PM
So much unnecessary pain and sadness. I feel terrible for all of them.

^^^^ What weezie said.

WakeDevil
04-15-2015, 09:02 PM
Take it to the Brickyard or the ZZL.

AustinDevil
04-16-2015, 11:58 AM
Take it to the Brickyard or the ZZL.

Sorry, why?

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
04-16-2015, 12:09 PM
For whatever reason, sports is one of the places that homophobia and homophobic language is still utilized and embraced. Personally, I think it's embarrassing. I can't imagine being someone who lives and works in that sort of environment and has to keep their personal life so very secret.

Here's to hoping that sports evolves to catch up with the rest of society. In the meantime, there's an awful lot of pain and heartache being doled out on a regular basis.

flyingdutchdevil
04-16-2015, 01:20 PM
For whatever reason, sports is one of the places that homophobia and homophobic language is still utilized and embraced. Personally, I think it's embarrassing. I can't imagine being someone who lives and works in that sort of environment and has to keep their personal life so very secret.

Here's to hoping that sports evolves to catch up with the rest of society. In the meantime, there's an awful lot of pain and heartache being doled out on a regular basis.

This. It's embarrassing, and incredibly pathetic.

I believe that sports is the the most challenging and last frontier for homosexuality to openly penetrate in the United States.

And I don't believe that coaches will frequently speak up about it, simply because of the stigma between homosexuality and sports.

jjredickrules
04-16-2015, 03:01 PM
I just lost my comment after spending well over an hour crafting it to be relevant and non-offensive. :mad: I'll try again.

This article presents one side of the story, but reality is more balanced.

I will start by saying that Duke is the last place I expect to promote homophobia in any way. Any sentiment made public that could be remotely interpreted as anti-gay is met with hatred and, dare I say, bigotry. Campus during Amendment One was a circus of "Vote Against" propaganda and paraphernalia. In my four years there, I had trouble finding anyone who had negative views of homosexuality, and even more trouble finding people who were homophobic. The Chronicle occasionally published anti-gay articles or quotes, but those were always met with metaphorical torches and pitchforks. Some pro-gay movements were even attempted by students IN CAMERON. In any case, do you think Duke would do anything to ostracize Tim Cook? Sure, homophobes exist at Duke, but they are largely private about it. They are the exception, not the rule.

As for article: IMO, the fear of backlash is occasionally (<- key word) greater than any backlash that would actually come to fruition. The article has evidence of that. Just because people use certain words does not mean they will inevitably treat LGBT individuals negatively, as seen by the coming out story where everyone else profusely apologized. People make decisions based on their perception, which can often differ from reality. Someone could refrain from asking out their love interest for fear of rejection despite the inevitability of reciprocated feelings, but that does not mean the crush is at fault for the former's lack of confidence. For the love of K, do not take this as me calling all gay people irrationally fearful or that homophobia doesn't exist. It does and many fears are substantiated. What I am saying is that people do not take this into account, and therefore many blame society much more than society is due.

Lastly, the athletes who have come out recently have done so with astounding success. Any opinion in mainstream media not expressively in support of Jason Collins was ostracized. One commentator was called to be fired after ESPN explicitly asked him to give an opinion they knew would be just about the only one on the opposing side. In addition, Michael Sam skyrocketed to celebrity status after coming out. He appeared on "Dancing with the Stars" and won or was nominated for several awards despite having never played a down of a regular season NFL game. While perhaps team dynamics could cause issues, athletes who have made public anti-gay statements have been largely criticized. On that note, Kicker Chris Kluwe has been making great strides within the NFL, putting anyone accused of LGBT discrimination on the defensive.

The domino is falling. There will be resistance, but the process has been comparatively fast.

If I may add a slightly off topic comment (mods pls msg me if I need to take this part out): I judge people based on their actions, not words. Too often people are oversensitive to language (see: Ferry, Danny). If language is the worst thing someone faces, that's a win.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
04-16-2015, 03:09 PM
I just lost my comment after spending well over an hour crafting it to be relevant and non-offensive. :mad: I'll try again.

This article presents one side of the story, but reality is more balanced.

I will start by saying that Duke is the last place I expect to promote homophobia in any way. Any sentiment made public that could be remotely interpreted as anti-gay is met with hatred and, dare I say, bigotry. Campus during Amendment One was a circus of "Vote Against" propaganda and paraphernalia. In my four years there, I had trouble finding anyone who had negative views of homosexuality, and even more trouble finding people who were homophobic. The Chronicle occasionally published anti-gay articles or quotes, but those were always met with metaphorical torches and pitchforks. Some pro-gay movements were even attempted by students IN CAMERON. In any case, do you think Duke would do anything to ostracize Tim Cook? Sure, homophobes exist at Duke, but they are largely private about it. They are the exception, not the rule.

As for article: IMO, the fear of backlash is occasionally (<- key word) greater than any backlash that would actually come to fruition. The article has evidence of that. Just because people use certain words does not mean they will inevitably treat LGBT individuals negatively, as seen by the coming out story where everyone else profusely apologized. People make decisions based on their perception, which can often differ from reality. Someone could refrain from asking out their love interest for fear of rejection despite the inevitability of reciprocated feelings, but that does not mean the crush is at fault for the former's lack of confidence. For the love of K, do not take this as me calling all gay people irrationally fearful or that homophobia doesn't exist. It does and many fears are substantiated. What I am saying is that people do not take this into account, and therefore many blame society much more than society is due.

Lastly, the athletes who have come out recently have done so with astounding success. Any opinion in mainstream media not expressively in support of Jason Collins was ostracized. One commentator was called to be fired after ESPN explicitly asked him to give an opinion they knew would be just about the only one on the opposing side. In addition, Michael Sam skyrocketed to celebrity status after coming out. He appeared on "Dancing with the Stars" and won or was nominated for several awards despite having never played a down of a regular season NFL game. While perhaps team dynamics could cause issues, athletes who have made public anti-gay statements have been largely criticized. On that note, Kicker Chris Kluwe has been making great strides within the NFL, putting anyone accused of LGBT discrimination on the defensive.

The domino is falling. There will be resistance, but the process has been comparatively fast.

If I may add a slightly off topic comment (mods pls msg me if I need to take this part out): I judge people based on their actions, not words. Too often people are oversensitive to language (see: Ferry, Danny). If language is the worst thing someone faces, that's a win.

Not exclusively. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/01/gay-kentucky-basketball_n_6986156.html)

As far as language goes, as a straight, white male, I choose to believe when other groups of people tell me that certain language is offensive to them rather than just say "relax, it's just words." Then again, my mother-in-law was an English professor and I put great weight into the words that people choose to employ rather than waiting for those words to be actualized in actions.

Richard Berg
04-16-2015, 03:48 PM
Take it to the Brickyard or the ZZL.
Is this some kind of backhanded way of saying "not appropriate for Duke, keep it in the closet"? I'd love to hear your reasons why it's ok for some people to brag about conquests and set each other up on dates, but not others.

Kfanarmy
04-16-2015, 03:52 PM
This is a tough one. It is always difficult to discuss these social issues because most people don't want to put the other guy or gals shoes on and as noted Any opinion in mainstream media not expressively in support of the popular agenda is met with hatred.

so I'll just throw this grenade and walk away.

Unless life has changed drastically, coaches at every level, go into the locker room.
Most parents wouldn't welcome a heterosexual male HS volleyball coach into a 16 YO girls locker room. Would it be ok if the girls said having a male in there made them uncomfortable simply because he might be sexually attracted to them? or is the school obligated to hire female assistants to handle that space, if they can afford it.

Can parents of a 16 YO heterosexual male say they are uncomfortable with a homosexual coach for the same reason? Or are they being bigotted just because it is same sex?

Should the player have to accept the presence of someone inclined to have a physical attraction to them while in varying states of dress, complete with all the power politics of coach-athlete? At what age is a person ready for the challenge of the adult who can't resist the most base of motivations? IDK maybe college, ostensibly adulthood, is the right age? Its a tough situation, that I wouldn't want to be in, coach or player, but outside the professional ranks, I'd generally rather the coach be uncomfortable than the player(s).

Duvall
04-16-2015, 03:55 PM
This is a tough one. It is always difficult to discuss these social issues because most people don't want to put the other guy or gals shoes on and as noted Any opinion in mainstream media not expressively in support of the popular agenda is met with hatred.

so I'll just throw this grenade and walk away.

Unless life has changed drastically, coaches at every level, go into the locker room.
Most parents wouldn't welcome a heterosexual male HS volleyball coach into a 16 YO girls locker room. Would it be ok if the girls said having a male in there made them uncomfortable simply because he might be sexually attracted to them? or is the school obligated to hire female assistants to handle that space, if they can afford it.

Can parents of a 16 YO heterosexual male say they are uncomfortable with a homosexual coach for the same reason? Or are they being bigotted just because it is same sex?

Should the player have to accept the presence of someone inclined to have a physical attraction to them while in varying states of dress, complete with all the power politics of coach-athlete? At what age is a person ready for the challenge of the adult who can't resist the most base of motivations? IDK maybe college, ostensibly adulthood, is the right age? Its a tough situation, that I wouldn't want to be in, coach or player, but outside the professional ranks, I'd generally rather the coach be uncomfortable than the player(s).

What even is this.

rifraf
04-16-2015, 03:55 PM
I would assume they could handle it in whatever way UCONN handles it with Geno Auriemma and his team.

duke09hms
04-16-2015, 03:56 PM
This is a tough one. It is always difficult to discuss these social issues because most people don't want to put the other guy or gals shoes on and as noted Any opinion in mainstream media not expressively in support of the popular agenda is met with hatred.

so I'll just throw this grenade and walk away.

Unless life has changed drastically, coaches at every level, go into the locker room.
Most parents wouldn't welcome a heterosexual male HS volleyball coach into a 16 YO girls locker room. Would it be ok if the girls said having a male in there made them uncomfortable simply because he might be sexually attracted to them? or is the school obligated to hire female assistants to handle that space, if they can afford it.

Can parents of a 16 YO heterosexual male say they are uncomfortable with a homosexual coach for the same reason? Or are they being bigotted just because it is same sex?

Should the player have to accept the presence of someone inclined to have a physical attraction to them while in varying states of dress, complete with all the power politics of coach-athlete? At what age is a person ready for the challenge of the adult who can't resist the most base of motivations? IDK maybe college, ostensibly adulthood, is the right age? Its a tough situation, that I wouldn't want to be in, coach or player, but outside the professional ranks, I'd generally rather the coach be uncomfortable than the player(s).

Oooh tricky tricky. But if that were the case, Geno shouldn't be coaching the UConn women, and men shouldn't be coaching young women. So I don't think that argument holds.

Richard Berg
04-16-2015, 03:58 PM
Since I was a kid, at least (which is already much longer than I care to admit), youth organizations like sports teams, church groups, Scouts, etc have all had some flavor of "3 person rule". That is, no 1-on-1 time between adults and children. Seems like a much simpler -- yet more prudent -- rule than trying to segregate every activity by gender, let alone by sexuality.

Billy Dat
04-16-2015, 04:07 PM
so I'll just throw this grenade and walk away.

I appreciate you articulating a valid and sensitive point.

The trick is, we know that there are a lot of gay athletes, both male and female, so the locker room dynamic is always going to be part of the conversation. You make good points about the power dynamic between coach and player vs teammates.

I assume that males who coach females, and vice versa (Becky Hammond of the Spurs!) avoid locker room audiences when players are not dressed. But, then again, reporters of both sexes are often around players in various states of undress...or maybe I've got that wrong and it's only pro males who deal with unisex locker room access when they are getting dressed.

This is making my head hurt.

The killer for college coaches is recruiting. Regardless of someone's homophobia, they will be reluctant to hire anyone that they think will put them at a disadvantage - whether that perception is true or not.

We've come a long way, still a long way to go with all forms of prejudice.

Richard Berg
04-16-2015, 04:16 PM
The killer for college coaches is recruiting. Regardless of someone's homophobia, they will be reluctant to hire anyone that they think will put them at a disadvantage - whether that perception is true or not.
Nah, that's an easy one. I don't want homophobic players as the face of my university, regardless how high they can jump.

AustinDevil
04-16-2015, 04:47 PM
I will start by saying that Duke is the last place I expect to promote homophobia in any way. Any sentiment made public that could be remotely interpreted as anti-gay is met with hatred and, dare I say, bigotry. Campus during Amendment One was a circus of "Vote Against" propaganda and paraphernalia. In my four years there, I had trouble finding anyone who had negative views of homosexuality, and even more trouble finding people who were homophobic. The Chronicle occasionally published anti-gay articles or quotes, but those were always met with metaphorical torches and pitchforks. Some pro-gay movements were even attempted by students IN CAMERON. In any case, do you think Duke would do anything to ostracize Tim Cook? Sure, homophobes exist at Duke, but they are largely private about it. They are the exception, not the rule.

I appreciate the thought and effort you put into this post. You seem to focus on media reports to say athletes coming out are "supported," and they are -- but focusing on the actual sports, we simply will never know if Michael Sam would've been drafted higher or made a non-practice roster in the NFL, or whether a closeted Robbie Rogers would be in the mix for USMNT roster spots.

While we're all throwing grenades around this thread, the one thing about your post I really could disagree with is the idea that Duke University is so firmly on the LGBT-friendly side of the ledger that there's no conversation to be had about Duke sports and homophobia. It has not even been a decade since Gail Goestenkors left. I do not possess the facts to say unequivocally that she was forced away from Duke due to her coming out, but there sure were a lot of rumors around it. And I'm very glad that Joe Alleva, who is very much at the heart of those rumors, is gone as well.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
04-16-2015, 05:43 PM
I guess I'd better go ahead and lob my grenade before this thread gets locked. Even if it doesn't, I'm going to have a hard time maintaining civility on this subject as I have very strong feelings.

Fact is - gay men are perceived as "feminine" and "weak" and therefore poor athletes. Of course, this isn't the case - there is a percentage of gay men in very masculine professions, sports included. That is why it is so very important for athletes like Michael Sam to come out and be open. It shatters the general perception when you see a stud player who wins SEC Defensive Player of the year kissing his boyfriend after getting drafted. The "gay stereotype" is what has to be slowly destroyed. Gay teens who are being bullied growing up need to understand that they have just as much opportuity to become athletes as any other job; they will be hired/fired on the basis of their abilities.

This is why the language used on practice fields and in locker rooms is so very important. Sure, "it's just words," but they are words that are tossed around haphazardly to indicate weakness, poor performance, lack of masculinity until the people saying and hearing it feel it has lost all meaning. "It's just words" - except to the person who is standing next to you and is too embarassed or terrified to speak out and say how much they hurt.

Gay women, on the other hand, are perceived as strong and manly. Gay women have been open in sports for many decades with varying success. There's an entirely different can of worms to get into there, but at least the general stereotypes for gay women "fits" with sports. People don't bat an eye when learning that a WNBA player or tennis player is gay.

As far as the "showers" argument goes - it's absurd. There are already gay people in the locker rooms of your YMCA, team sport, church gym, etc. If you haven't proven to be completely irresistable to them as of yet, I believe that your purity is safe. If you are in fact such a catch that gay people can't resist but come onto you at every juncture, then congratulations, you probably have a whole host of other advantages in life that none of the rest of us can relate to.

I had not heard rumors that Coach G's sexuality may have played a role in her departure from Duke. If that's true, I'm wildly disappointed. In general, institutions of higher learning have been at the forefront of social progress, and I would like to hold Duke to a higher standard than most other schools.

With that, I will step away from this thread, because I know I won't likely respond nicely to those who want to discuss this further, and I imagine the moderators are already (and correctly) watching this thread closely for reasons to close it.

Go Duke!

jjredickrules
04-16-2015, 06:26 PM
I appreciate the thought and effort you put into this post. You seem to focus on media reports to say athletes coming out are "supported," and they are -- but focusing on the actual sports, we simply will never know if Michael Sam would've been drafted higher or made a non-practice roster in the NFL, or whether a closeted Robbie Rogers would be in the mix for USMNT roster spots.

While we're all throwing grenades around this thread, the one thing about your post I really could disagree with is the idea that Duke University is so firmly on the LGBT-friendly side of the ledger that there's no conversation to be had about Duke sports and homophobia. It has not even been a decade since Gail Goestenkors left. I do not possess the facts to say unequivocally that she was forced away from Duke due to her coming out, but there sure were a lot of rumors around it. And I'm very glad that Joe Alleva, who is very much at the heart of those rumors, is gone as well.

You're right. I failed to make a distinction, and you are correct to call me out.

I meant to point out that popular opinion at Duke frowns upon discrimination, and that any decisions made on account of someone's sexuality are usually kept secret. Duke has outwardly championed gay rights, including extending marriage benefits to same sex couples after A1 passed, adding gender realignment surgery to the health plan, adding coed housing, funding Common Ground, and moving the LGBT center to the main floor of the BC. If it came out that they hired or fired someone because of sexuality, there'd be quite a stir. Again, administrations may discriminate, but it would be to the detriment of their public image, which they don't want to be harmed.

I never meant to say that there was no discussion to have with sports. I agree that athletics is well behind wrt treatment of LGBT individuals. The article shows how sexuality is brought into consideration in a negative way. I can't argue with facts and personal experiences. I just want to make sure people don't overstate how bad things are. The glass is not completely empty.

Mountain's comments on stereotypes having an effect on gay athletes are good thoughts. I'll stay away though.

Just wanted to clarify my points. I am not making absolutist statements or calling anyone wrong, on this thread or otherwise.

My goal is to not have the thread closed on my account, so I'll bow out permanently here. Carry on.

Owen Meany
04-16-2015, 07:01 PM
This is a thread about discrimination and the fear of repercussions that a gay coach faces. In this same thread, a coach is identified as being gay. I have no idea if this is true or not, I do not care, and it has no effect on my feelings (which are very positive) for this coach.

Since I had never heard this before, I did a quick internet search to see if this "fact" came up. It did not. Perhaps it is an open secret, perhaps it is widely known, whatever. But I found no evidence that this is something the coach in question chooses to discuss publicly (or that it is even true). I realize I may have missed where this was discussed somewhere at sometime, but it was not revealed in a quick internet search.

Given that we are discussing the negative impact this can have on someone, even suggesting the coach lost their job due to their sexuality, it would seem very unwise to "out" this person here. If the person in question is, in fact, gay, I am sure they have given careful consideration to who they have revealed this to, how public they want to be, etc. Perhaps it would be wise to remove the references to this person in this thread. Otherwise, this thread will come up in future searches as evidence of the coach's sexuality. If the coach chooses to come out publicly, that should be their choice, not ours.

Wander
04-16-2015, 07:25 PM
I will start by saying that Duke is the last place I expect to promote homophobia in any way. Any sentiment made public that could be remotely interpreted as anti-gay is met with hatred and, dare I say, bigotry. Campus during Amendment One was a circus of "Vote Against" propaganda and paraphernalia. In my four years there, I had trouble finding anyone who had negative views of homosexuality, and even more trouble finding people who were homophobic. The Chronicle occasionally published anti-gay articles or quotes, but those were always met with metaphorical torches and pitchforks. Some pro-gay movements were even attempted by students IN CAMERON. In any case, do you think Duke would do anything to ostracize Tim Cook? Sure, homophobes exist at Duke, but they are largely private about it. They are the exception, not the rule.

The domino is falling. There will be resistance, but the process has been comparatively fast.


I appreciate your thoughts and believe you that your intentions are good. I'd respectfully suggest that your own experience at Duke is not generalizable to everyone, especially athletes. There's also a difference between promotion of homophobia and its mere existence. I'm sure Duke and most other universities would be embarrassed if footage of coaches calling people ugly names in practice went viral and would come out strongly against it. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen when the cameras are off (I'm not accusing any Duke teams specifically of that).




This is a tough one. It is always difficult to discuss these social issues because most people don't want to put the other guy or gals shoes on and as noted Any opinion in mainstream media not expressively in support of the popular agenda is met with hatred.

so I'll just throw this grenade and walk away.

Unless life has changed drastically, coaches at every level, go into the locker room.
Most parents wouldn't welcome a heterosexual male HS volleyball coach into a 16 YO girls locker room. Would it be ok if the girls said having a male in there made them uncomfortable simply because he might be sexually attracted to them? or is the school obligated to hire female assistants to handle that space, if they can afford it.

Can parents of a 16 YO heterosexual male say they are uncomfortable with a homosexual coach for the same reason? Or are they being bigotted just because it is same sex?

Should the player have to accept the presence of someone inclined to have a physical attraction to them while in varying states of dress, complete with all the power politics of coach-athlete? At what age is a person ready for the challenge of the adult who can't resist the most base of motivations? IDK maybe college, ostensibly adulthood, is the right age? Its a tough situation, that I wouldn't want to be in, coach or player, but outside the professional ranks, I'd generally rather the coach be uncomfortable than the player(s).


It is not a tough one. Here's why - a majority of female college athletes are coached by males. I haven't seen a single person bring that up as a sexual attraction issue on DBR, ever. So why is it coming up here? It just comes off as a weak excuse.

WakeDevil
04-16-2015, 08:24 PM
Sorry, why?

The last time this was brought up was in relation to Grant Hill's "courageous and heroic" stance on homosexuality. It was none of the kind. And it brought down the wrath of the overlords on me.

I can figure out the agenda of most of the contemporary liberals on this board. (Not to be confused with classical liberals.) It is to ram down the throats of the dissenters the homosexual agenda. So we have the sad and sorry spectacle of people who say they'd rather not serve pizzas at homosexual weddings being hounded and issued death threats. It has come to that with the "diversity" crowd. That is the proper answer to the question, "What does my being gay and married have to do with you?"

The problem with any discussion of this subject is that the "tolerant" side almost inevitably resorts to name calling. Thus, anyone who is the least bit uncomfortable with the idea of homosexuality is branded as being in league with those who want to kill homosexuals. That is what you are doing whether you are willing to admit it.

I am not particularly interested in whether a coach is a homosexual, but I have learned that the activists are very interested in having some of us participate in their lifestyle. Leave me alone. That is something the secular left and the religious right have always had trouble doing.

I am here to read about Duke and college basketball. Take your smug and condescending opinions to an off-topic board. In your own way, you are as bad as the folks at Liberty University.

I'll be waiting for the inevitable PM.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
04-16-2015, 08:38 PM
Well, that didn't take as long as I figured. Good night, everyone.

AustinDevil
04-16-2015, 08:41 PM
This is a thread about discrimination and the fear of repercussions that a gay coach faces. In this same thread, a coach is identified as being gay. I have no idea if this is true or not, I do not care, and it has no effect on my feelings (which are very positive) for this coach.

Since I had never heard this before, I did a quick internet search to see if this "fact" came up. It did not. Perhaps it is an open secret, perhaps it is widely known, whatever. But I found no evidence that this is something the coach in question chooses to discuss publicly (or that it is even true). I realize I may have missed where this was discussed somewhere at sometime, but it was not revealed in a quick internet search.

Given that we are discussing the negative impact this can have on someone, even suggesting the coach lost their job due to their sexuality, it would seem very unwise to "out" this person here. If the person in question is, in fact, gay, I am sure they have given careful consideration to who they have revealed this to, how public they want to be, etc. Perhaps it would be wise to remove the references to this person in this thread. Otherwise, this thread will come up in future searches as evidence of the coach's sexuality. If the coach chooses to come out publicly, that should be their choice, not ours.

Done, and you are absolutely correct. I was combining public facts with things that are widely known in certain communities of which I am a member, and I stupidly assumed that everything I knew from the latter set with things that are known in the former.

Richard Berg
04-16-2015, 08:44 PM
This thread is about college basketball, WakeDevil. Far more so than, say, reading the tea leaves about the state of mind of random high school kids I've never heard of.

BTW, your rant still did not answer my question. What moral principle compels gay topics to stay in the closet (or the "brickyard", or whatever euphemism you prefer) while colleagues are free to discuss their romantic adventures in public?

As for the vehemence some people bring to the subject, I'm with Barry Goldwater: moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.

(And please, spare us the false-equivalence persecution complex. Last I checked, wedding planners don't have a suicide rate 4X the national average, and nobody is dragging them behind trucks.)

pfrduke
04-16-2015, 08:44 PM
Ok, we're done here. This has veered (predictably enough, I suppose) into PPB territory. It's an important conversation to have, but it's not going to happen on this forum.