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crdaul
04-13-2015, 04:13 PM
24/7 reporting he's likely to graduate early to take Tyus Jones spot....thoughts?

crdaul
04-13-2015, 04:15 PM
Make that Thornton....

SilkyJ
04-13-2015, 04:24 PM
24/7 reporting he's likely to graduate early to take Tyus Jones spot....thoughts?

Link?

My thoughts are that it would be wonderful, but I haven't seen a) that he's reclassifying nor b) that Tyus is 100% gone. (Given redshirt comments I also suppose its possible he comes regardless of whether Tyus leaves...my guess is he'd play a decent amount either way)

duke blue brewcrew
04-13-2015, 04:27 PM
From what I've been reading, his family isn't overly sold on the idea. However, if Thornton did do it, they would want him to red-shirt and learn for a year. While I absolutely see how that would help Thornton develop, it certainly doesn't help Duke's potential need for a PG for next year.

Bob Green
04-13-2015, 04:31 PM
Link?

I second the motion for the OP to provide a link. Is this premium site content?

duke blue brewcrew
04-13-2015, 04:40 PM
Link?

My thoughts are that it would be wonderful, but I haven't seen a) that he's reclassifying nor b) that Tyus is 100% gone. (Given redshirt comments I also suppose its possible he comes regardless of whether Tyus leaves...my guess is he'd play a decent amount either way)

http://duke.247sports.com/Bolt/Duke-Derryck-Thornton-36757355

roywhite
04-13-2015, 04:43 PM
From what I've been reading, his family isn't overly sold on the idea. However, if Thornton did do it, they would want him to red-shirt and learn for a year. While I absolutely see how that would help Thornton develop, it certainly doesn't help Duke's potential need for a PG for next year.

I've read some of the discussion on this approach of re-classifying, coming to Duke (or Louisville, also under consideration) and then redshirting a year under a HOF coach before competing. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense IMO. If he's serious about re-classifying and finishing up high school, that's a reasonable consideration; he turns 18 on 5/30; would miss his senior year in high school, plus McDonald's A-A, etc., which he mentioned was of some importance. But why leave high school early and then redshirt; yes, he would learn more redshirting at Duke than he would playing in high school, but he would REALLY learn more by coming to Duke and PLAYING as a freshman.

CDu
04-13-2015, 04:43 PM
From what I've been reading, his family isn't overly sold on the idea. However, if Thornton did do it, they would want him to red-shirt and learn for a year. While I absolutely see how that would help Thornton develop, it certainly doesn't help Duke's potential need for a PG for next year.

It might help with development, but there are two major negatives for the player with the commit-early-to-redshirt (not including missing out on your senior year of high school):
1. You lose a year of basketball games. Instead of playing AAU games and high school games and allstar games, you are just a practice player.
2. You lose a lot of transfer flexibility. If you find that your school of choice doesn't work for you, by redshirting you have cost yourself a year of eligibility if you transfer before graduating (see Alex Murphy).

That is a LOT to give up just for a year of prep.

mattman91
04-13-2015, 04:44 PM
http://duke.247sports.com/Bolt/Duke-Derryck-Thornton-36757355

Nothing new.

MCFinARL
04-13-2015, 04:56 PM
Nothing new.

Yes, the only new material here seems to be that the writer "expects" Thornton to come to Duke--but no supporting evidence for that expectation.

On the other hand, this entry does reveal that Thornton's father is apparently named, wonderfully, Big Tank. Might he be the successor we have been looking for to Chucky Okafor?

vick
04-13-2015, 05:02 PM
I've read some of the discussion on this approach of re-classifying, coming to Duke (or Louisville, also under consideration) and then redshirting a year under a HOF coach before competing. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense IMO. If he's serious about re-classifying and finishing up high school, that's a reasonable consideration; he turns 18 on 5/30; would miss his senior year in high school, plus McDonald's A-A, etc., which he mentioned was of some importance. But why leave high school early and then redshirt; yes, he would learn more redshirting at Duke than he would playing in high school, but he would REALLY learn more by coming to Duke and PLAYING as a freshman.

I don't follow recruiting all that closely, but is someone entering college when he's 18 really now considering "leaving early"? I didn't skip a grade or anything and I was a couple of months younger than he would be as a freshman, if I'm reading this correctly.

CDu
04-13-2015, 05:05 PM
I don't follow recruiting all that closely, but is someone entering college when he's 18 really now considering "leaving early"? I didn't skip a grade or anything and I was a couple of months younger than he would be as a freshman, if I'm reading this correctly.

It is early in the sense that he is eligible for one more year in high school. One more year of bball games; one more prom; etc. He wouldn't be leaving early in terms of being young for a college frosh, but he would still be leaving early.

Owen Meany
04-13-2015, 05:05 PM
I know the 247 is derided by many due to the Tony Parker recruitment and perhaps others. I do glance at it from time to time because I think its interesting to see what the "experts" are predicting, and to see if there is a trend. There is often info floating around out there that I'm sure recruiting guys hear, and I suspect they often feed off each other, or the same nugget of information (or are even swayed just by the fact that one of the big recruiting gurus makes a pick).

FWIW, 3 guys picked Thornton to Duke today, and 1 picked Giles to Duke.

Also, 3 guys have predicted Tatum to Duke in the last 3 days.

MCFinARL
04-13-2015, 05:17 PM
I don't follow recruiting all that closely, but is someone entering college when he's 18 really now considering "leaving early"? I didn't skip a grade or anything and I was a couple of months younger than he would be as a freshman, if I'm reading this correctly.

It would be considered "leaving early" because he has been, this year, a junior in high school, although that is clearly a bit arbitrary since he presumably is close enough to having the credits to graduate that he can consider reclassifying. Since he is at Findlay, it's also possible that he stayed back a grade when transferring in, either for academic reasons or, more likely, for basketball reasons (tried to research this but didn't find anything useful).

In any case, he will just turn 18 in May. Even leaving sports aside, a lot of kids these days, especially boys, start school late if they have late spring or summer birthdays. The idea seems to be that boys mature socially a little later than girls. My daughter, who has a June birthday and graduated from high school just as she turned 18, had many male classmates who were a year or more older.

Edit: I see CDu came up with a more straightforward answer.

vick
04-13-2015, 05:19 PM
It is early in the sense that he is eligible for one more year in high school. One more year of bball games; one more prom; etc. He wouldn't be leaving early in terms of being young for a college frosh, but he would still be leaving early.

I get it, and I know these guys are wired differently from people like me, but man, everyone talks (not wrongly) about how great college life is whenever we're talking early entry or something like that. You tell me I get to experience that for a year vs. high school boredom and mediocre competition and I get to learn from the best coach in the game who has a great track record of guiding people to my dream (I'm assuming he's thinking NBA given rankings) while I'm doing it? Doesn't seem like such a bad deal to me regardless of what you think of the development impact.

CDu
04-13-2015, 05:22 PM
I get it, and I know these guys are wired differently from people like me, but man, everyone talks (not wrongly) about how great college life is whenever we're talking early entry or something like that. You tell me I get to experience that for a year vs. high school boredom and mediocre competition and I get to learn from the best coach in the game who has a great track record of guiding people to my dream (I'm assuming he's thinking NBA given rankings) while I'm doing it? Doesn't seem like such a bad deal to me regardless of what you think of the development impact.

There are plusses and minuses: some of the plusses you have listed; some of the minuses I listed in a previous post (loss of a year's worth of games and loss of transfer flexibility).

duke blue brewcrew
04-13-2015, 05:23 PM
Just to be clear, I didn't post that link because I thought it was new information. I posted it because it wasn't included with the opening post, and it is the link being referenced. Nothing more. That said, I do see how Thornton's red-shirting could help his development, I didn't say I was in favor of it.


It might help with development, but there are two major negatives for the player with the commit-early-to-redshirt (not including missing out on your senior year of high school):
1. You lose a year of basketball games. Instead of playing AAU games and high school games and allstar games, you are just a practice player.
2. You lose a lot of transfer flexibility. If you find that your school of choice doesn't work for you, by redshirting you have cost yourself a year of eligibility if you transfer before graduating (see Alex Murphy).

That is a LOT to give up just for a year of prep.

Point #2 carries a lot of weight in the decision making process in my opinion. #1 far less so. AAU ball is far from fundamentally sound basketball, and from all I've read about it would suggest that there is very little emphasis placed on the defensive side of the ball. Also, it takes some wear and tear off of the body. There are no guarantees of avoiding injury, but the odds are more in Thornton's favor by red-shirting. It would allow him to get acclimated to the Duke system, campus and academics. The drawback of reclassifying in my eyes is missing out on his senior year and cool things like the McDonald's AA game among others.

CDu
04-13-2015, 05:30 PM
Just to be clear, I didn't post that link because I thought it was new information. I posted it because it wasn't included with the opening post, and it is the link being referenced. Nothing more. That said, I do see how Thornton's red-shirting could help his development, I didn't say I was in favor of it.



Point #2 carries a lot of weight in the decision making process in my opinion. #1 far less so. AAU ball is far from fundamentally sound basketball, and from all I've read about it would suggest that there is very little emphasis placed on the defensive side of the ball. Also, it takes some wear and tear off of the body. There are no guarantees of avoiding injury, but the odds are more in Thornton's favor by red-shirting. It would allow him to get acclimated to the Duke system, campus and academics. The drawback of reclassifying in my eyes is missing out on his senior year and cool things like the McDonald's AA game among others.

While I agree that is how it should be viewed, I would actually argue the typical kid would view #1 as more of a downside. These kids are competitors, and the games are their best outlet for that competition. And redshirting after committing early means giving up a year's worth of games. That is asking A LOT of a high school kid. Conversely, I doubt the average high schooler thinks he will wind up needing a transfer. So while that should be a big consideration, it probably weighs less of their minds.

But make no mistake: giving away a year's worth of games (and games in which you will be a superstar) that you will never get back is a HUGE downside.

Kedsy
04-13-2015, 08:07 PM
Conversely, I doubt the average high schooler thinks he will wind up needing a transfer. So while that should be a big consideration, it probably weighs less of their minds.

Especially for a kid like Thornton, who probably isn't expecting to be in college for the full four years.

ACCBBallFan
04-13-2015, 08:13 PM
Probably better to have 3 years of HS and 2 years of college than 4 HS and 1 college.

As I recall some guys actually regress a year to go to a basketball factory and then reclassifying actually puts them in the class they would have been in.

What I don't understand is the potential red-shirt. It's not like he would be at risk of being out of eligibility 3-4 years from then when a guy with his skill rarely plays 4 years in college

arnie
04-13-2015, 08:22 PM
Especially for a kid like Thornton, who probably isn't expecting to be in college for the full four years.
All the talk about redshirting a potential starter will likely change when practice starts. Obviously the decision to redshirt isn't made until the season is well underway. I gotta believe if he's comes to Duke, looks good in practice, he will play 2015-2016 season.

sagegrouse
04-13-2015, 09:07 PM
All the talk about redshirting a potential starter will likely change when practice starts. Obviously the decision to redshirt isn't made until the season is well underway. I gotta believe if he's comes to Duke, looks good in practice, he will play 2015-2016 season.

And, of course, "redshirt" year is an after-the-fact assessment. The kid either plays or not. If he doesn't play, he does not use up a year of eligibility.

bluedevil007
04-13-2015, 09:20 PM
Is it possible that he could come and redshirt and then enter the NBA draft? Not saying that's his angle or even on his radar but is that permissible?

Dukehky
04-13-2015, 09:43 PM
Is it possible that he could come and redshirt and then enter the NBA draft? Not saying that's his angle or even on his radar but is that permissible?

Yes (Enes Kanter, not a red-shirt, but he didn't play at all that year). It would not happen again though if a player/family/coaching staff all mutually agreed that redshirting him was worth it.

JetpackJesus
04-13-2015, 09:53 PM
I was reading about this earlier today. I didn't see the redshirt option mentioned in the articles I read, and I never even considered they might want him to reclassify and redshirt. I just assumed Louisville and Duke were asking Thornton to reclassify because both schools need or are likely to need a PG next season.

CDu
04-13-2015, 11:17 PM
And, of course, "redshirt" year is an after-the-fact assessment. The kid either plays or not. If he doesn't play, he does not use up a year of eligibility.

Technically yes. But in practice the decision to redshirt is almost certainly made before the games start. Otherwise, a guy like Murphy might get some garbage minutes in an early-season blowout and lose the opportunity to redshirt.

Now, plans can always change, and an intended redshirt candidate may be forced into action. But it isn't like they just play the season and then retroactively decide to redshirt. The rules necessitate some preseason planning.

CDu
04-13-2015, 11:19 PM
I was reading about this earlier today. I didn't see the redshirt option mentioned in the articles I read, and I never even considered they might want him to reclassify and redshirt. I just assumed Louisville and Duke were asking Thornton to reclassify because both schools need or are likely to need a PG next season.

You are correct. Not only does redshirting make, at best, questionable sense for a top-tier recruit, it makes next to no sense in terms of Duke's and Louisville's needs.

bluedev_92
04-14-2015, 08:57 AM
I don't follow recruiting all that closely, but is someone entering college when he's 18 really now considering "leaving early"? I didn't skip a grade or anything and I was a couple of months younger than he would be as a freshman, if I'm reading this correctly.

I live in Northern Delaware (right at the border with Southeastern Pennsylvania). Our high level sports teams often play teams from Pennsylvania. While coaching in a high level girls basketball tournament recently, it was brought to my attention that its becoming more & more common in PA to "yellow shirt" children - hold them back a year so that they can compete on school teams against younger competition. While I knew this was going on to some extent - didn't know they had a name for it! This doesn't work on many travel teams (soccer is strictly age based & I think AAU basketball has new reforms moving in that direction, but with larger age bracket (24 month) windows)
Anyway, it leads to many kids being older than the "normal" high school graduation age that we may be used to...

BigWayne
04-14-2015, 10:49 AM
Is it possible that he could come and redshirt and then enter the NBA draft? Not saying that's his angle or even on his radar but is that permissible?

It's technically possible as the NBA just requires you be 19 and one year past HS graduation. However, getting drafted after not having played for a year would likely lead to being drafted pretty low compared to the normal case.

DC Chak
04-14-2015, 04:44 PM
Especially for a kid like Thornton, who probably isn't expecting to be in college for the full four years.

It's not clear to me that, at Findlay Prep, he's been in high school either.

http://www.pahoops.org/findley%20prep%20school.htm

Maybe things have changed since 2010. Certainly, they've sent several kids to top colleges and the NBA.

http://www.findlayprep.com/findlay-alumni.html

On the namesake, Cliff Findlay. The Las Vegas Sun says that the Findlay Prep players take the same classes as the Henderson International School kids.

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2009/feb/12/findlay/

SilkyJ
04-14-2015, 05:19 PM
It's not clear to me that, at Findlay Prep, he's been in high school either.

http://www.pahoops.org/findley%20prep%20school.htm

Maybe things have changed since 2010. Certainly, they've sent several kids to top colleges and the NBA.

http://www.findlayprep.com/findlay-alumni.html

On the namesake, Cliff Findlay. The Las Vegas Sun says that the Findlay Prep players take the same classes as the Henderson International School kids.

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2009/feb/12/findlay/

Interesting setup--didn't realize it was a bball only dedicated school that "shared academic services," if you will, with Henderson Int'l. If I didn't know better by its reputation (and its many NCAA alums), it would sound extremely shady. This is the money quote from your last link as it relates to "being in high school"


Henderson is a private institution whose annual tuition is about $16,000. Findlay started his 10-player prep team three years ago.

The Pilots attend the same classes as Henderson’s students and are held to the same rigid academic standards. Any missed class or assignment, or other slip-up, earns players a one-game suspension.

While I can appreciate the skepticism in your opening sentence, my guess is that with all the alums they've sent to various NCAA schools (several of which we've recruited) and the fact that we are currently recruiting another kid there now, that the school has been appropriately vetted by not only the NCAA but by us as well. Kids obviously have to be able to perform in the classroom at Duke, and so knowing where they come from academically at the HS level is key.

Here's another link from the Henderson Intl website: http://www.hendersonschool.com/academics/findlay-prep