Era of the One-And-Done

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I'm curious to know...

Prior to this (fabulous) championship run, there was lots of grumblings on this board regarding how one-and-dones don't "feel" like Duke players. Players like Austin, Kyrie, and Jabari all were fun to watch, but felt more like a frustrating tease than like ambassadors of Duke - fellow student you get to watch grow and mature and learn on and off the court.

There's all sorts of things you can say about that perspective, and most of it has been covered in GREAT detail in various threads over the years. I'm just wondering if this group "feels" like Duke players to those of you who have had conflicted feelings in the past.

Certainly, this was a pretty unique group of young kids. They gelled together and worked as a team as well as any group of older players that I can remember. Their journey from November to April was something amazing to watch. You never got the sense that they were looking ahead to personal glory. Obviously, hanging a banner in Cameron Indoor makes things different to a degree.

So, I am specifically addressing the posters that have voiced their negative opinions about one-and-dones in the past. Is this different? Because from the other side of the coin, I have enjoyed this particular roster as much as any in the last ten years or so. I'd have to go back to Nate James and Battier to find particular squads that I liked better, and that's just because they are the pinnacle of Duke players for me.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I'm curious to know...

Prior to this (fabulous) championship run, there was lots of grumblings on this board regarding how one-and-dones don't "feel" like Duke players. Players like Austin, Kyrie, and Jabari all were fun to watch, but felt more like a frustrating tease than like ambassadors of Duke - fellow student you get to watch grow and mature and learn on and off the court.

There's all sorts of things you can say about that perspective, and most of it has been covered in GREAT detail in various threads over the years. I'm just wondering if this group "feels" like Duke players to those of you who have had conflicted feelings in the past.

Certainly, this was a pretty unique group of young kids. They gelled together and worked as a team as well as any group of older players that I can remember. Their journey from November to April was something amazing to watch. You never got the sense that they were looking ahead to personal glory. Obviously, hanging a banner in Cameron Indoor makes things different to a degree.

So, I am specifically addressing the posters that have voiced their negative opinions about one-and-dones in the past. Is this different? Because from the other side of the coin, I have enjoyed this particular roster as much as any in the last ten years or so. I'd have to go back to Nate James and Battier to find particular squads that I liked better, and that's just because they are the pinnacle of Duke players for me.

This is an interesting thread. Thanks for posting and getting it started.

I feel that all players who come through Duke - whether they be OADs or four-year players - are Duke players. It doesn't make a difference. They enrolled, they went to class, and they represented Duke well.

However, it's the level of "emotional attachment" that differs across this group (also important to note that emotional attachment differs across players of the same group). I think it's pretty universal that the emotional attachment to four year players is higher (maybe significantly higher) than OADs, and this makes sense: we've invested a lot of time following Duke basketball and watching the games. Part of the what makes a fan a hardcore fan is knowing everything about that player. And I can tell you ten times more about Nolan Smith than I can about Kyrie Irving. Thus, with this year's group, I have a slight emotional attachment to them, but it's nowhere near the level of my emotional attachment to Quinn Cook. Cook is easily on my favorite players, and it's been a fun (albiet sometimes stressful) rollercoaster with him. But watching his evolution has really made me appreciate Quinn moreso than any of the OADs. If Grayson stays 3-4 years, I assume that he'll be my favorite player from this class.

The level of attachment across players in the same year is also different, but I think this is more person preference than anything else. I react more to Winslow than Okafor or Tyus, partially because he is the most exciting player to watch on this team and partially before my wife really likes him. I preferred JJ over Shelden, Nolan over Singler, and Henderson over Scheyer (even though Hendo only stayed for 3 years). Emotions are emotions.

So, to answer your question, I don't think the level of Duke-ness differs for OADs. But I will always cherish four year players more than OADs, simply because of the level of investment I've put into these players.

[BrazyATX]

Never hated on the OAD personally, but here's my take.

With this group, the championship run is the 90% of the difference, with the rest being how clutch each one was at any given time and the amazing season they had in terms of the wins, and the growth you could clearly see.

Kyrie is tough because he only played 11 games. Austin was tough because the team had an early exit and questions about chemistry after the season. Jabari is tough because of the short season as well, though of these three I'd say he is most likeable for me personally. With these three though you didn't get to see the clear growth that shows us as a fans a dedication to what Coach and the program are giving them.

The other difference is that there are three of them, not just one.

[ChillinDuke]

Great thread.

I will add two points to go along with the responses before me.

First, it's definitely about the emotion (as FDD said) and it's definitely about the championship (as Brazy said). What I mean by this is that if you're anything like me, the NCAAT gets increasingly emotional/stressful/intense as you advance. Really the entire season does. And certain games do as well. This team amplified the emotion I attach to players (a) by advancing to every possible game in the tourney, (b) playing with increasingly more on the line as the regular season progressed, and (c) playing (and winning) monster games/comebacks many, many times throughout the year. Only (b) is somewhat of a given from year to year - and even then it depends on the degree to which there is legit hope for accolades throughout the year (generally a "yes" at Duke). So, as a result of these, I became much more attached to this crop of freshmen than '11, '12, or '14.

Second, I want to highlight what Coach K has now pointed to a few times recently. The staff seems to be identifying and getting to know recruits much better earlier on in the process. As a result, things like Duke Blue Planet and, more generally, interviews or media reports have given me more time to connect with these players on the front-end than in past years. I don't think it's a coincidence that I connected more with Jabari than Austin Rivers, despite the same amount of NCAAT wins - two years later, the emotional connection was a bit stronger earlier.

- Chillin

[Billy Dat]

I think being an NBA fans helps strengthen the bond with the early entry players, especially the one and dones. I know there are a lot of DBR regulars who care not for the pro game. But, as a huge fan myself, I stay connected with our guys by watching them in the league for years and years. It's really fun, and there are so many of them that it always gives me a rooting interest, even when they face my team.

[MarkD83]

Several of the other posters identifed common themes to me.

1) The longer the player plays for Duke the more you see them develop as a player and a personality. This can be through out 4 years or throughout a longer season.
2) The more the player is invested in the team the more you can appreciate the development of the player.

So using Kyrie Irving as an example, he did not play enough games for me to see changes in his development as a player. However, I rewatched a few games from his one year at Duke after he was injuried and you could see he was actively involved in cheering on the team. Coach K called it "unpacking your bags".

The second example is seeing former Duke players in the stands at various times during the year and hearing that they are still in contact with Coach K and current players. I believe I saw Jabari in the stands at Cameron and heard that he talked to Jah about experiences at Duke.

These are things that don't occur if the player did not invest himself in the program regardless of the time he spent at Duke.

So my opinion on OADs has changed becasue I think that the talented underclassmen that come to Duke arrive on campus and "unpack their bags" for the time they are here. The longer they play in any given season or over multiple seasons the more we as fans can see the emotional investment in the team.

BTW, the contrast can be seen in Jah's comments "it sucks that this is too short" vs the 7 Ky players who had what sounded like a very unemotional press conference that was scripted from the start of the season. This indicated that the Ky players bought in to the team goal of going undefeated but were a bit indifferent whether it was for Ky.

[MCFinARL]

Great thread.

I will add two points to go along with the responses before me.

First, it's definitely about the emotion (as FDD said) and it's definitely about the championship (as Brazy said). What I mean by this is that if you're anything like me, the NCAAT gets increasingly emotional/stressful/intense as you advance. Really the entire season does. And certain games do as well. This team amplified the emotion I attach to players (a) by advancing to every possible game in the tourney, (b) playing with increasingly more on the line as the regular season progressed, and (c) playing (and winning) monster games/comebacks many, many times throughout the year. Only (b) is somewhat of a given from year to year - and even then it depends on the degree to which there is legit hope for accolades throughout the year (generally a "yes" at Duke). So, as a result of these, I became much more attached to this crop of freshmen than '11, '12, or '14.

Second, I want to highlight what Coach K has now pointed to a few times recently. The staff seems to be identifying and getting to know recruits much better earlier on in the process. As a result, things like Duke Blue Planet and, more generally, interviews or media reports have given me more time to connect with these players on the front-end than in past years. I don't think it's a coincidence that I connected more with Jabari than Austin Rivers, despite the same amount of NCAAT wins - two years later, the emotional connection was a bit stronger earlier.

- Chillin

I think this is a key point. Increasingly, these players are being marketed to fans (to put it cynically but, at least in part, accurately) earlier, more intensely, and in more naturalistic, "fun" settings (like the Blue Planet locker room videos) than they used to be. This year, the "package deal" aspect, which drew a lot of press coverage, made that even more true. So we do feel like we know them better than we normally would in just a year.

I think it also makes a difference that a) Tyus, Jahlil and Justise knew each other before and b) Quinn began working right away, with Amile's help, to jell everyone into a team. They had a chemistry as a team--all of them, including the freshmen--that was obvious on and off the court. The way the older players embraced the new guys, and the way they connected to each other, made it much easier for me (and I suspect others) to embrace them fully as "Duke guys."

It doesn't hurt, of course, that all take so many opportunities to sing the praises of Duke. I enjoyed watching Austin and Jabari play and, of course, for the 5 minutes he got to, Kyrie as well--and they are certainly part of the Duke family. But I feel more attached to these guys, and I think I will remember them more fondly in the future as well (although the championship likely has something to do with that :D).

[COYS]

Several of the other posters identifed common themes to me.

1) The longer the player plays for Duke the more you see them develop as a player and a personality. This can be through out 4 years or throughout a longer season.
2) The more the player is invested in the team the more you can appreciate the development of the player.

So using Kyrie Irving as an example, he did not play enough games for me to see changes in his development as a player. However, I rewatched a few games from his one year at Duke after he was injuried and you could see he was actively involved in cheering on the team. Coach K called it "unpacking your bags".

The second example is seeing former Duke players in the stands at various times during the year and hearing that they are still in contact with Coach K and current players. I believe I saw Jabari in the stands at Cameron and heard that he talked to Jah about experiences at Duke.

These are things that don't occur if the player did not invest himself in the program regardless of the time he spent at Duke.

So my opinion on OADs has changed becasue I think that the talented underclassmen that come to Duke arrive on campus and "unpack their bags" for the time they are here. The longer they play in any given season or over multiple seasons the more we as fans can see the emotional investment in the team.

BTW, the contrast can be seen in Jah's comments "it sucks that this is too short" vs the 7 Ky players who had what sounded like a very unemotional press conference that was scripted from the start of the season. This indicated that the Ky players bought in to the team goal of going undefeated but were a bit indifferent whether it was for Ky.

I don't disagree with what you say, but in defense of the UK players, they announced all at the same time (much less time for individual displays of emotion) which was orchestrated by Calipari, most likely for his own self-aggrandizement. In addition, i never saw anything, body language or otherwise, from any of the UK guys except perhaps the Harrisons that indicated that they didn't want to be at UK. I'd say the opposite, really. Also, despite my dislike for Calipari, I found this UK team to be likable enough (except for the Harrisons again). I mean, not enough for me to want them to have beaten anyone but UnC, but still likeable :).

Finally, and perhaps the most pertinent point, I don't blame those guys for being less than happy appearing in front of the press. The unbeatable team had just lost on the biggest of stages in what has got to be the most disappointing moment in their young lives. It would have been more of indication that they were excited to escape college if they had been giddy and excited to leave for the NBA despite having just lost to Wisconsin. Instead, that loss still stings. A part of that is individual pride, but surely some of that comes from being disappointed they couldn't bring a title home to Lexington.

Anyway, I love the way K does things. I love our guys from the OAD's to the fifth year seniors like Andre. I wouldn't trade our program for UK's any day. Still, I don't doubt that most of the UK players are equally likely and committed to their school.

[InSpades]

I'm certainly not anti-OAD but there's definitely a special place in my heart for guys who stick around longer. It's hard to develop the same level of attachment in just 1 year... guys like Scheyer, Singler and Redick will always be more dear to my heart than guys like Irving, Parker and Okafor. That doesn't mean I don't consider them Duke guys...

It might not be fair... but my view on this class will always be a bit more favorable because they took us to a whole 'nother level. Correct me if I'm wrong but this is the 1st set OADs (or single OAD) who made a large positive impact on our NCAA run. Parker was great, but frankly we could have lost to Mercer w/out him. Austin didn't take us anywhere. Kyrie was great but we could have made the Sweet 16 without him (we did basically). We would have been lucky to make it the sweet 16 without Okafor and Winslow.

[2008grad]

Great topic, given this year is the first time Duke fans are able to really experience a group of OADs that have brought back a championship. For me, this championship was special for two major reasons: 1. I was thrilled to see Quinn win it his senior year. 2. I thought this was a masterful coaching. The flexibility coach K and his staff showed was remarkable---primarily on the defensive end--zone, man, full court pressure, back to zone, etc. The situationally specific coaching schemes were brilliant.

I'm thrilled for the whole team, no matter who goes and who stays. They deserve it and represented the name on the jersey well. They will always be duke players. Howevever, the 2010 championship differentiates itself from 2015 (in my opinion) on an interpersonal and emotional level. The personal aspect was there with a strong group of upperclassmen (Singler, Scheyer, Zoubek, Thomas, & Smith). I just felt more invested. 2001 was similar, given it was the senior year for Battier and James.

Taken together, I'd say my reaction to a OAD national championship team is "wow, what incredible coaching." My reaction to a more junior/senior laden championship is "look how much these guys have put in over the years--i'm so glad the hard work paid off!"----that isn't to say the OAD's don't work hard (because they obviously do--adjusting to college and learning a system in such a short amount of time is insane). I'm also not saying amazing coaching isn't needed to develop players over the years, because it is critical.

That is just the "feeling" I get. Personally, I prefer to get to know the players and watch them develop--but that isn't the way the system is set up right now.

[AAA1980]

I do think you grow an emotional attachment the longer they stay but what the freshmen did this year will never be forgotten or underappreciated.

I think the thing I like are the players who keep that relationship and rooting interest long after their days at Duke are over..

It's cool to see on twitter ex players giddy over Dukes run..I think most players are like that it's rare that a ex player distances himself from the team and school..Maybe a Brand or Deng is all I can come up with..

[PackMan97]

You've heard folks talk about "First World Problems" well dang if this isn't a "Blueblood problem". As a State fan, I have no idea what you guys are talking about in this thread ;)

[Atldukie79]

You've heard folks talk about "First World Problems" well dang if this isn't a "Blueblood problem". As a State fan, I have no idea what you guys are talking about in this thread ;)

Now that is both funny and great perspective!

[DukeandMdFan]

I think being an NBA fans helps strengthen the bond with the early entry players, especially the one and dones. I know there are a lot of DBR regulars who care not for the pro game. But, as a huge fan myself, I stay connected with our guys by watching them in the league for years and years. It's really fun, and there are so many of them that it always gives me a rooting interest, even when they face my team.

I used to think that a huge advantage of following college sports over professional sports was that trades and free-agency led to fans of pro sports suddenly rooting for people they used to hate.

Now, I think that a huge advantage to following the NBA is that the best players of the league stay with a team for several years - long enough to form an emotional attachment - compared to college where the best players are gone after one year.

[jimsumner]

I'm certainly not anti-OAD but there's definitely a special place in my heart for guys who stick around longer. It's hard to develop the same level of attachment in just 1 year... guys like Scheyer, Singler and Redick will always be more dear to my heart than guys like Irving, Parker and Okafor. That doesn't mean I don't consider them Duke guys...

It might not be fair... but my view on this class will always be a bit more favorable because they took us to a whole 'nother level. Correct me if I'm wrong but this is the 1st set OADs (or single OAD) who made a large positive impact on our NCAA run. Parker was great, but frankly we could have lost to Mercer w/out him. Austin didn't take us anywhere. Kyrie was great but we could have made the Sweet 16 without him (we did basically). We would have been lucky to make it the sweet 16 without Okafor and Winslow.

Corey Maggette and Luol Deng made large, positive impacts on deep NCAA runs.

[InSpades]

Corey Maggette and Luol Deng made large, positive impacts on deep NCAA runs.

That is true. Neither of them were the stars of their team though. I still have a ton of respect for Deng. He was a great complement to the stars on his team. I guess it's also different because we will have our first class of multiple OADs (assuming things go as predicted).

[cato]

I'm certainly not anti-OAD but there's definitely a special place in my heart for guys who stick around longer. It's hard to develop the same level of attachment in just 1 year... guys like Scheyer, Singler and Redick will always be more dear to my heart than guys like Irving, Parker and Okafor. That doesn't mean I don't consider them Duke guys...

It might not be fair... but my view on this class will always be a bit more favorable because they took us to a whole 'nother level. Correct me if I'm wrong but this is the 1st set OADs (or single OAD) who made a large positive impact on our NCAA run. Parker was great, but frankly we could have lost to Mercer w/out him. Austin didn't take us anywhere. Kyrie was great but we could have made the Sweet 16 without him (we did basically). We would have been lucky to make it the sweet 16 without Okafor and Winslow.

Luol Deng was instrumental to a deep run, although no national championship. Maggette was an important player in '99, although not a starter. And again, no national championship.

This year wqs obviously special. I have to say, a big part of it for me was Quinn Cook and Amile Jefferson. They got me to buy in early, and then I slowly developed an appreciation for the rest of the squad. By February, they did not seem like Frosh anymore.

[COYS]

This year wqs obviously special. I have to say, a big part of it for me was Quinn Cook and Amile Jefferson. They got me to buy in early, and then I slowly developed an appreciation for the rest of the squad. By February, they did not seem like Frosh anymore.

There is no doubting the special attachment I have to the veteran players. I felt like 2010 was Coach K's "Redeem Team" squad. Since the Final Four in '04, Duke had lost in the Sweet 16 three times, the first round once, and the second round once. Granted, this period also included a handful of ACC Titles and, well, no one should really complain too much about making the Sweet 16 . . . but compared to other eras of Duke basketball under K, this was a long, long drought between Final Fours. Still worse, UNC won two titles during this period and had just grabbed Harrison Barnes, a guy we thought to be a strong Duke lean and someone who was going to elevate the talent pool back to contender status.

Instead, our "alarmingly unathletic" seniors Lance, Brian and Jon combined with the always steady and talented Kyle and Nolan (who took a meteoric leap from sophomore year to junior year) to win the title. To see those guys hoist the trophy was special. Otherwise, the enduring NCAA Tournament image of that squad would probably have been Jon's bloodied face after the first round loss to VCU.

In many ways, this was Quinn's "Redeem Team," too. He had a first round loss, an Elite Eight run in which his play was uneven, and then another first round loss (although he played really well against Mercer) on his resume. That NCAAT record isn't bad by most standards, but definitely is below average for a Duke player. Then, Coach K went out and recruited Tyus Jones to take over point guard duties. However, as K himself has said repeatedly, Quinn grew up this year. He did everything he could to make sure everything he did fit into what the team had become. The most impressive thing he did, in my opinion, was elevate the quality of defense he was capable of playing. By the end of the year, he had become a very good defender and was a big reason why Duke's defense went from pretty good but streaky to consistently elite over the last few weeks of the season.

Amile is only a junior, but he also gets some major points. I fully believe he is capable of being a consistent double digit scorer in the post with his crafty moves and finishing ability. However, his offense just didn't fit into the starting lineup and Justise's versatility caused him to see his role reduced. Still, he stuck it out and came up absolutely huge in the championship game on the defensive end. I think we'll get to see him score a lot more next year, but his team-first sacrifices certainly played a massive role in the 2015 tournament run.

I say all this not to minimize my attachment to all the Duke OAD players and especially this trio (if indeed all three become OADs), but at the end of the day, I still feel that rooting for a player for multiple years is rewarding in a completely different way . . . at least from a fan's perspective.

[dukelifer]

That is true. Neither of them were the stars of their team though. I still have a ton of respect for Deng. He was a great complement to the stars on his team. I guess it's also different because we will have our first class of multiple OADs (assuming things go as predicted).

Luol was pretty much a star. Second on team in scoring - slightly below JJ- and rebounding- below Shelden. That is really good.

[COYS]

Luol was pretty much a star. Second on team in scoring - slightly below JJ- and rebounding- below Shelden. That is really good.

Looking at where Luol ranked on the all time freshman scoring and rebound lists really revealed just how good he was . . . and he was a really good defender, too. He might have only been a freshman, but he was probably the best player on the team . . . and definitely the most well-rounded. What was even better is that he could do everything he did without the ball in his hands.

That 2004 team is obviously below the 1999 team in terms of recent juggernauts that just fell short of the championship. However, that was a loaded team and Luol was quite possibly the best player on it.

[PackMan97]

All joking from my previous post aside, If I had to guess, I'd say ones attachment to OAD players greatly depends on the upperclassmen on a team.

For example, having Okafor and Winslow help win a title for Quinn Cook is something that Duke fans will always remember. Or the fact that the team had to deal with and overcome the loss and associated scandal of Suliman. It is something that makes their year with Duke more memorable and remarkable. This makes this season more than "just a championship year"...because well, you guys are used to that. The only thing missing from their resume is beating the great UK team...but something tells me y'all don't mind too much.

I think it also greatly helps that Duke never has an entire team defect like KY has had twice in recent years. Duke loses Cook and two (maybe three) of the Freshman? Losing 3-4 players each year is about right. You guys have never had to face the OAD era with an entirely new team because of it.

I've always though OADs were great if they can get you over the hump of winning a championship while not setting your program back for years due to lack of continuity. So far K has done a masterful job with handling OADs.

[DukeandMdFan]

I think it also greatly helps that Duke never has an entire team defect like KY has had twice in recent years. Duke loses Cook and two (maybe three) of the Freshman? Losing 3-4 players each year is about right. You guys have never had to face the OAD era with an entirely new team because of it.


I'm not sure how much of never having an entire team defect was/will be by design. The 2015 formula of three OADs supplemented by veterans with great leadership led to a championship. There used to be speculation that maybe one OAD per Duke recruiting class might provide the right mix - unlike Kentucky's formula of what seemed like the entire team turning over. Now, it would seem that recruiting multiple OADs in a single class is the way to go for Duke. (Not that there is anything wrong with that...but if it is ok for Duke then it is ok for Kentucky and everybody else as well.)

I suppose one could argue that Coach K held Grayson back at the beginning of the year so that he wouldn't be a OAD as well, but I don't think that was the case.

[gurufrisbee]

I've absolutely been someone who often talked about how one-and-done guys have not felt like Duke guys as much to me. And yes, this group does bring some interesting questions to those thoughts and beliefs. Here are my initial reactions and thoughts on this:

1) It's definitely about the length of time there. Early entry guys, to me, are not really any different than guys who transfer out - or even ones who transfer in. The more time you are at Duke, the more you feel like a Duke player. Elliot Williams doesn't feel much like a Duke guy to me. Even Billy McCaffrey - who helped us win a title - doesn't have the same place for me as someone who stayed for longer.

2) Does team success matter? I really don't think so. I think RIGHT NOW the euphoria of being the champs makes it a lot easier to not be upset about them leaving early and makes the thoughts right now still be a lot more about what they just accomplished. But down the road I don't believe it will make a big difference. Andre Sweet is about as meaningless of a Duke player as I can imagine, to me.

3) The personality of the individual and the team also definitely matter. This team was super easy to love. Their spirit and accomplishments and the big games and big performances. I think back to when Austin Rivers hit his big shot to beat Carolina. It was remarkable and great - but it never really made him all that likeable or overcame a lot of what made him not as likeable that season. Tyus Jones would always be far more loved, even if we had lost to Robert Morris and he left for the NBA. He's just more likeable and so is this team. I've coached a lot of teams and some years we went undefeated and some years we lost every game but I've loved every team - but some were just a lot easier to like along the way. I think it usually connects with how much they are committed to each other and bonded as a 'family', but I don't know for sure. It's not saying anything bad about some people or some teams - that's just how things are different.

Right now I would say it is easier to feel great love for Jah (and Justise and Tyus if they go). But I do believe absolutely in five years from now I will have a bigger place in my Duke loving heart for Quinn, Amile, Marshall, Matt, and Grayson. Will I have the same feeling of Jah (etc) being a Duke guy as Jabari or Kyrie or Austin? He'll probably be ahead of those guys. I don't know.

[wavedukefan70s]

To be honest .I felt this was more of a team and it felt like more of a team.several teams we have had in the last decade or so haven't had that team feeling to me as a fan.although I root the same regardless.when some of our teams lost in the NCAA. Some guys were hurting .
I'd shed a tear or two with them as they walked of the court dreams shattered. I bought into those as a fan .some I just couldn't get invested like that.

[Kedsy]

Does team success matter? I really don't think so.

I disagree, and think it does matter to most fans. The amount of sniping against Austin Rivers and Jabari Parker and Josh McRoberts on this Board has been appalling. And we all know what they have in common. When Austin and Jabari left after one season, they didn't get such gushing "Thanks" threads like Jahlil has (and like Justise and Tyus surely will get if/when they declare). Frankly, for most fans I believe there's not much else to this phenomenon than, not just team success, but NCAA tournament success.

[ICP]

I disagree, and think it does matter to most fans. The amount of sniping against Austin Rivers and Jabari Parker and Josh McRoberts on this Board has been appalling. And we all know what they have in common. When Austin and Jabari left after one season, they didn't get such gushing "Thanks" threads like Jahlil has (and like Justise and Tyus surely will get if/when they declare). Frankly, for most fans I believe there's not much else to this phenomenon than, not just team success, but NCAA tournament success.

Exactly, I fully agree with this, it expresses my feelings exactly. And Coach K himself hinted at this at the celebration in Cameron when he talked about how these three guys really accomplished something and earned our lasting gratitude. If you win a championship for us, I would likely keep you in my heart and memory much more than if you're here for longer without any notable performances, and definitely much more than if you only stay a year and leave without having won anything.

[johnb]

Jordan Stieth left Texas early, and his Longhorn golf team is #3. Should he have left early and be crushing the Masters? Or trying to help his team win an NC?

Our guys should do what they want. isn't that one of the lessons at Duke: find your passion and try to rise to the top?

by the way, I don't believe we've ever recruited a Oad (aside from maybe Jah). if they'd not played themselves into the lottery, they don't go pro, which is why I'll be mildly surprised if Tyus leaves. But if he does, I'll wish him well (though I still won't watch much nba).

[mo.st.dukie]

We get the best of both worlds. We still have guys in the program that we get to see develop over 4 years and we also get to see elite talent that leaves early.

For me, emotional attachment doesn't really have to do with how long a player stays. I had just as much emotional attachment to this year's team as I did 2010. And when I hear Coach K talk about this team I get a real sense of just how special they were and how close they were.

In the immediate aftermath of the tournament loss last year I was off the OAD bandwagon. I thought that it wasn't a great way to win big while relying on freshmen. But after seeing Florida lose last year and seeing Uconn and UK play in the title it kind of readjusted my thoughts on it. And now seeing Duke beat Wisconsin for a title it reaffirms my thoughts. No matter whether you build a team full of upperclassmen or build a team full of freshmen it's always going to require the same stuff to get to the Final Four and win a title. And it's always a one year shot, just one chance where everything has to fall in place and be just right.

I think it is really cool that Duke has recently won a title led by juniors and seniors and also won a title where freshmen scored 60 points in the title game. I like getting one and dones and I like getting guys who develop over four years. Both can be enjoyable to watch as a fan and both can have that emotional attachment for a fan just all in different ways. Neither is better or worse and neither is the right way or wrong way to do it, it's just different.

[mo.st.dukie]

I disagree, and think it does matter to most fans. The amount of sniping against Austin Rivers and Jabari Parker and Josh McRoberts on this Board has been appalling. And we all know what they have in common. When Austin and Jabari left after one season, they didn't get such gushing "Thanks" threads like Jahlil has (and like Justise and Tyus surely will get if/when they declare). Frankly, for most fans I believe there's not much else to this phenomenon than, not just team success, but NCAA tournament success.

Yes, and typically when people talk about emotional attachment to seniors it's usually seniors who were great players or were on great teams. People don't usually talk about an emotional attachment to Greg Paulus or Dave McClure. Not going to see many posts gushing about how great it was to watch Josh Hairston for 4 years or to see Tyler Thornton develop into a rock solid leader. it's usually about Jon Scheyer or J.J. Redick or Shane Battier or Nolan Smith or Trajan Langdon or Chris Duhon, etc. So we have one and dones that fans are like "well, he was here" and we have seniors that fans have that same sentiment towards.

[SoCalDukeFan]

It is only natural to feel more connection for players you saw play and develop for 3 or 4 years rather than 1. It is only more natural to care more about players who you saw win 6 NCAA tournament games and a NC rather than those who do not.

I have no problem with anyone who makes the decision that he thinks is best for him to leave Duke and pursue his NBA dream or leave because the money is so compelling.

My problem with OADs at Duke was actually more with Coach K's program than with the OADs themselves. I saw a program where the old guys taught the young guys. A program with a defense that was tough to master in a year. A program that over time built a strong team bond. It seemed to me that with Rivers the team chemistry was just not right. I felt with Parker the staff made major changes in roles of other more veteran players who were slow to accept them. (I do think everything would have fine with Irving if he had not been injured.) So I felt that I would rather not see the OADs if it meant they would force changes in roles and hurt the team chemistry. This year Quinn accepted his new role from the start. The team was mostly together and then got together after the ND game. So I think K adjusted his approach to the OADs.

I would love to see all of the players stay 4 years but know that is not going to happen. In my opinion this was one of K's best coaching seasons. I look forward to more and understand than OADs will probably be a big part of them.

SoCal

[gurufrisbee]

I disagree, and think it does matter to most fans. The amount of sniping against Austin Rivers and Jabari Parker and Josh McRoberts on this Board has been appalling. And we all know what they have in common. When Austin and Jabari left after one season, they didn't get such gushing "Thanks" threads like Jahlil has (and like Justise and Tyus surely will get if/when they declare). Frankly, for most fans I believe there's not much else to this phenomenon than, not just team success, but NCAA tournament success.

You probably are right for most people. I wasn't trying to answer for anyone else - just for me.


It is only natural to feel more connection for players you saw play and develop for 3 or 4 years rather than 1.


I think this line is probably the most accurate and significant for me. Wish I had said it as clearly and concisely as this.

[wavedukefan70s]

I guess the 93 94 team stands out to me as one i admired or rooted for hardest .bill Clinton really ruined my enjoyment of that game.seat movement.secret service regulated bathroom breaks.i hated all things Arkansas for a while.i wanted Lang and hill to get 1 more ring for duke.

[NYBri]

Dealing with OAD is a work in progress...for the players, coaches and fans.

Players: young men trying to turn their passion and skills into a marketable asset in the crazy, media driven world of professional sports.

Coaches: trying to find a way to integrate these players into a system that was initially set up to develop teams and programs based on four years of service.

Fans: having to work through their desire for personal connection with players over a period of years and alter that time frame to a period of months.

As others have pointed out, there is more than one way to adjust to OAD...and K has found a good process. At least this past year is a good example. Question now is, will players see K's way as one that supports their goals? I think they will since they see success. NC AND first round picks.

We still have our work cut out for us as fans. Change is hard, but the world stands still for no one. Personally, I will remember this season for the rest of my life as one of the greats. The fact that it was accomplished with OADs doesn't really matter. We have enough stories that will continue into next year to give us fan continuity, and enough change that the next team will have its own identity.

We are now going to spend the off season discussing what might be with this new team, as opposed to discussing the chances of our old team repeating.

[SupaDave]

And to think, this board was in meltdown after losing Harrison Barnes...

Has K lost it?

Will we EVER get another big name recruit?

We're done!

USA basketball has ruined us!

And now?

"Gosh, getting all this top talent is killing me, wish they could stay longer and bring us 600 championships!"

[Dev11]

Relax, people. At the end of the day, it's all just rooting for laundry.

[MCFinARL]

I'm not sure how much of never having an entire team defect was/will be by design. The 2015 formula of three OADs supplemented by veterans with great leadership led to a championship. There used to be speculation that maybe one OAD per Duke recruiting class might provide the right mix - unlike Kentucky's formula of what seemed like the entire team turning over. Now, it would seem that recruiting multiple OADs in a single class is the way to go for Duke. (Not that there is anything wrong with that...but if it is ok for Duke then it is ok for Kentucky and everybody else as well.)

I suppose one could argue that Coach K held Grayson back at the beginning of the year so that he wouldn't be a OAD as well, but I don't think that was the case.

I'm not sure what anyone could base this argument on, especially if they had watched Grayson's play all season. He had several moments early on where he made mistakes or bad decisions shortly after entering games, as a typical freshman might, so I think it is reasonable to assume it was his own need to adjust to playing the game on this level, as well as the availability of players who could, in Coach K's estimation, do a better job with those minutes, that "held him back," not Coach K. I realize I am actually agreeing with you--but I'm just suggesting that the idea that Coach K would adjust player rotations this year to increase the chances he would still have a player next year seems too far fetched even to propose as a hypothetical.

Edit: want to make clear that, of course, and my eternal gratitude as a fan, Grayson did make those adjustments and brought them to the court when we really needed them. I was not trying to argue that he was not a good player, only that he likely wasn't ready earlier in the season to make the plays he did down the stretch.


Jordan Stieth left Texas early, and his Longhorn golf team is #3. Should he have left early and be crushing the Masters? Or trying to help his team win an NC?

Our guys should do what they want. isn't that one of the lessons at Duke: find your passion and try to rise to the top?

by the way, I don't believe we've ever recruited a Oad (aside from maybe Jah). if they'd not played themselves into the lottery, they don't go pro, which is why I'll be mildly surprised if Tyus leaves. But if he does, I'll wish him well (though I still won't watch much nba).

Maybe you are missing the point of this thread. We aren't talking about what the players should or should not do; no one is suggesting that they owe it to fans to stay in college if their best choice is to go professional. We are only talking about how those decisions make us, as fans, feel about those players.

If I were a devoted fan of the Texas golf team, I surely wouldn't argue that Jordan Spieth should have stayed in school. But I might feel less emotional attachment to Spieth as a Texas player than to someone who represented Texas for four years.

As for never recruiting a one and done aside from Jah, Jabari Parker says hello.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

You probably are right for most people. I wasn't trying to answer for anyone else - just for me.



I think this line is probably the most accurate and significant for me. Wish I had said it as clearly and concisely as this.

I appreciate that - it was the intention of this thread to pick the thoughts of folks like you. I wouldn't dare try and reach consensus on this issues. I was just extremely curious to see whether those who felt less connection with the OAD players felt any differently about this particular team and these particular players.

I guess the answer from you is "a little bit."

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

So, all three expected OADs are fulfilling their destiny. Will be interesting to revisit this top in a year or so to see how time colors folks' impression of our guys.

[CDu]

Luol was pretty much a star. Second on team in scoring - slightly below JJ- and rebounding- below Shelden. That is really good.

Yeah I am really struggling to see how Deng wouldn't be one of the 2004 team's biggest stars. Remember: that was the sophomore versions of Redick and Williams. Deng was the best player on that team in 2004 and absolutely was in a starring role.

[Devilwin]

I am still on Cloud Nine, enjoying this NCAA Title. I cannot bring myself to say anything detrimental about our one and dones, they accomplished what all kids that come to college to play sports aspire to.
That being said, I miss the old days when the word "commitment" means to see something through to the end. Hopefully, we can fill some of the holes for next season, and have another great year.

[Kfanarmy]

Great topic, given this year is the first time Duke fans are able to really experience a group of OADs that have brought back a championship. For me, this championship was special for two major reasons: 1. I was thrilled to see Quinn win it his senior year. 2. I thought this was a masterful coaching. The flexibility coach K and his staff showed was remarkable---primarily on the defensive end--zone, man, full court pressure, back to zone, etc. The situationally specific coaching schemes were brilliant.

I'm thrilled for the whole team, no matter who goes and who stays. They deserve it and represented the name on the jersey well. They will always be duke players. Howevever, the 2010 championship differentiates itself from 2015 (in my opinion) on an interpersonal and emotional level. The personal aspect was there with a strong group of upperclassmen (Singler, Scheyer, Zoubek, Thomas, & Smith). I just felt more invested. 2001 was similar, given it was the senior year for Battier and James.



The raw joy of success and pain of failure that I get watching half a handful of seniors over their careers; of watching a team morph from a collection of skilled players into a "fist" through four years of work, cannot be replicated in a year. The bond just isn't there. So while I was certainly happy for the trio to get the championship, I was most thrilled for Quinn Cook, who culminates four years of ups and downs on the highest of highs. Officiating has changed the game, enabling physical talent, and therefore the OADs, to succeed where in days past, I think the teamwork exhibited by UVA probably overcomes the individual talents on the Duke Squad.

The bond between the individual player, the school, and the fan, just doesn't have the opportunity to strengthen as it might over four years. Fortunately the college fan is usually attached to the school in some way, else fans would have the same affinity with a OAD as NBA fans do with a journeyman player who gets hired on for a year to play for their favorite team.

I'd prefer OADs just be allowed to go to the NBA.

But given the current rules, I'm glad these three played at Duke. They came a long way in a year and as the season moved into final four weekend I found myself marvelling at just how good the team could have been in their mythical senior season.

[Henderson]

The raw joy of success and pain of failure that I get watching half a handful of seniors over their careers; of watching a team morph from a collection of skilled players into a "fist" through four years of work, cannot be replicated in a year. The bond just isn't there. So while I was certainly happy for the trio to get the championship, I was most thrilled for Quinn Cook, who culminates four years of ups and downs on the highest of highs. Officiating has changed the game, enabling physical talent, and therefore the OADs, to succeed where in days past, I think the teamwork exhibited by UVA probably overcomes the individual talents on the Duke Squad.

The bond between the individual player, the school, and the fan, just doesn't have the opportunity to strengthen as it might over four years. Fortunately the college fan is usually attached to the school in some way, else fans would have the same affinity with a OAD as NBA fans do with a journeyman player who gets hired on for a year to play for their favorite team.

I'd prefer OADs just be allowed to go to the NBA.

But given the current rules, I'm glad these three played at Duke. They came a long way in a year and as the season moved into final four weekend I found myself marvelling at just how good the team could have been in their mythical senior season.

Allowing players to enter the NBA after HS doesn't address OAD, because it doesn't prevent players from leaving after their freshman year of college. Not unless coupled with a baseball-like rule that denies eligibility for a certain number of years to players who don't go pro from HS.

As fun as it is to play Farmville with the NBA/NCAA eligibility questions, I don't see it much more than a fantasy game, given that the NCAA has no commissioner and the league and its union are arguing over a much more narrow set of options.

[BobBender]

I can't warm up to the OAD culture. It's just my personal issue and preference. "Rent a pro", stick a college name on the front of the jersey, and have fun for one season. But as much as I don't care for it, I 'm more turned off by the massive amount of transferring that goes on these days. There are 200 minutes to split up among up to 13 scholarship players. So a scholarship doesn't assure playing time, just an opportunity to compete for minutes. Maybe scholarships could be scaled back since the math doesn't compute. If there were 10 'ships, wouldn't it mean there would be less transfer traffic?

[Lar77]

Allowing players to enter the NBA after HS doesn't address OAD, because it doesn't prevent players from leaving after their freshman year of college. Not unless coupled with a baseball-like rule that denies eligibility for a certain number of years to players who don't go pro from HS.

As fun as it is to play Farmville with the NBA/NCAA eligibility questions, I don't see it much more than a fantasy game, given that the NCAA has no commissioner and the league and its union are arguing over a much more narrow set of options.

You hit on one of the biggest hurdles confronting any solution: No NCAA commissioner. Without an appropriate negotiating party, no solution will ever be able to be crafted through all the social, economic, and political nuances. Someone like Jay Bilas might have the skills, love of the game, and desire to help the players necessary to craft a good solution.

That aside, a fantasy solution could be replacing the first Larry Bird rule with a modification. [the first Larry Bird rule was a response to Red Auerbach drafting Bird prior to his last year at Indiana State, then signing him before the next draft]. Let the NBA draft players and retain their signing rights by paying them a reduced amount (say 1/4 of their draft position amount) through a trust. The trust would pay for their living expenses while in college plus provide premiums for disability loss insurance). The players can develop their strength, skills, maturity and brand and receive an appropriate education while staying in college. Each year, the team can retain rights by paying into the trust (or release its rights) or the player can come out and sign for the balance of the first contract. Easy to point out the weaknesses and objections to this approach, but that is why you need someone to turn it into a workable solution.