Alternate Universes

[Bostondevil]

As long as we're playing what if and ranking championships and talking about which is the greatest Duke team - how about the alternate universe option.

I read this article http://www.reviewjournal.com/columns-blogs/ed-graney/20-years-one-regret-butler-s-near-miracle-against-duke and I have to admit, when he describes what the Butler team was planning to do, I'm kinda sorry we didn't get to see it.

But I wouldn't want to give up a Duke Championship.

I would, however, be willing to trade 2010 for 1986.

How about everybody else. If you had to trade one Duke Championship for another team, which ones would you trade? In my mind, I'm trading winning teams with teams that lost in the finals but I suppose a Final Four loss is OK. That puts 1989, 1990, and 2004 on the table. Wow. I just got impressed with Coach K all over again. 12 Final Fours, 9 Championship games.

[MarkD83]

I'll trade the

1993, 2005 and 2009 championships for

the 1986, 1994 and 1999 championships.

[EKU1969]

I'll trade the

1993, 2005 and 2009 championships for

the 1986, 1994 and 1999 championships.

THIS!

[Bostondevil]

I'll trade the

1993, 2005 and 2009 championships for

the 1986, 1994 and 1999 championships.

Yeah, me too.

But the original question was Duke Championships.

[Neals384]

I'm not trading 2010 for anything, sorry.

I wrote the following to the author of the piece you linked:

"Perhaps you're not aware that Hayward's last second shot was enabled by an illegal pick/flagrant foul on Kyle Singler. Singler had to celebrate the championship lying on his back. Please don't tell me no whistles are allowed in the last nn seconds of the game - nonsense! If the shot had gone in, Butler's win would be the biggest controversy since the USSR Olympic win."

[ricks68]

I'm not trading 2010 for anything, sorry.

I wrote the following to the author of the piece you linked:

"Perhaps you're not aware that Hayward's last second shot was enabled by an illegal pick/flagrant foul on Kyle Singler. Singler had to celebrate the championship lying on his back. Please don't tell me no whistles are allowed in the last nn seconds of the game - nonsense! If the shot had gone in, Butler's win would be the biggest controversy since the USSR Olympic win."

The foul was not flagrant nor illegal, and IIRC there was no controversy per the knowledgeable posters on these boards.

ricks

[duke79]

I guess I'm old but I might be willing to trade the 1993 championship for the 1978 final that we lost to Jack Givens and Kentucky. That was a very likeable team in the days before "Duke hate" existed (hell, most people in the country loved Duke that year) and before the OAD's, fake classes, and other more recent college BB shenanigans existed. Furthermore, that team came out of no where to make it to the finals. It was truly unbelievable that they even got as far as they did and, to have won it all, would have been a miracle. I'm not sure that more recent Duke grads realize how bad Duke BB was in the early to mid 70's. They were pretty much bottom of the barrel in the ACC year after year. Perhaps a little like Wake Forest is now. I can remember going to games at Cameron against other ACC teams knowing (or assuming) that Duke would lose. It was only a question of how bad the loss would be. I can also remember many of my dorm mates bitterly complaining after all of the losses how Duke had been screwed by bad calls from the refs (a la Bo Ryan!!). But, like the Duke/Wisconsin game, the unfortunate reality is that the other teams had better players than Duke and simple outplayed Duke most of the time.

[Kedsy]

I'm not trading 2010 for anything, sorry.

I agree. Frankly, I wouldn't trade any of the five championships for anything.

I also question the author's "best team" choice of Kentucky 1996:



All you need to know: Nine players off Rick Pitino’s championship team played in the NBA.


Well, the 2010 Duke team had seven players who played in the NBA. If that's "all [we] need to know," is he saying the presence of Chris Mills and Nazr Mohammed, neither of whom played even one second in the 1996 championship game, makes 1996 Kentucky better than 2010 Duke? Also, 1996 Kentucky beat 4-seed Syracuse by 9 points for the championship after beating good-but-not-great UMass by 7 points in the semifinal. Lots of Final Four teams have had more impressive runs than that. Frankly, I'm not even sure I'd put 1996 Kentucky on my list of 10 most impressive Final Four teams that I've been fortunate enough to witness, and that's not even including 2012 Kentucky (a team I think was probably better than 1996, but I missed that Final Four).

Hard to argue with his best player performance, or his pick for best shot. And I have my own brief Kevin Costner story from the 1994 Final Four. But as far as his central premise goes, I'm perfectly content with the way the 2010 tournament played out, thank you very much.

[Kedsy]

I guess I'm old but I might be willing to trade the 1993 championship for the 1978 final that we lost to Jack Givens and Kentucky.

Well, of course you would -- the 1993 championship was won by UNC. I imagine almost all of us would trade that one for almost anything. (Duke lost in the second round in 1993.)

[duke79]

Well, of course you would -- the 1993 championship was won by UNC. I imagine almost all of us would trade that one for almost anything. (Duke lost in the second round in 1993.)

UGH..........sorry, I guess I meant the 1992 championship. With my advancing age, I've lost most of my memory. Obviously.

[acdevil]

I'd trade any of them to win the 1998 championship.

[MarkD83]

Yeah, me too.

But the original question was Duke Championships.

OK, here is a more realistic answer which of the 5 Duke National Championships I would trade. My first thought is that I like the breadth in time over which Duke has won their 5 National Championships, so I would not trade the 2015 National Championship since it is the most recent. The 2010 and 2001 National Championships also gives a nice time distribution.

So before I finalize my answer let me dicuss which championship I would want to add. I would want to add the 1986 National Championship to extend the breadth of time and to reward the recruiting class that got things started for Coach K. The 2001 National Championship made up for the 1999 National Runner-Up and the 1994 National Runner-up would have been great and given Grant Hill bragging rights, but it came right after the 1991 and 1992 National Championships. The 1990 National Runner-up was a progression to the 1991 and 1992 National Champions, so I don't want to trade for that one.

So a trade for a 1986 National Championship would come done to the 1991 National Championship or the 1992 National Championship. If I consider the 1991 National Champions I would not give up the national semifinal win against UNLV. If I consider the 1992 National Champions I would not give up the Elite 8 win against Ky.

I could stand the 1992 National Champions losing to Indiana as long as Indiana beat Michigan in the finals. I could not stand the 1991 National Champions losing to "Ole Roy". A loss to Kansas would be tolerable but not to "Ole Roy".

So as much as it pains me the trade would be a semifinal loss to Indiana in 1992 for a 1986 win against Louisville. That would give Duke 5 National Championships from 1986 to 2015.

(I still stand by initial trade however of 1993, 2005, 2009 for 1986, 1994 and 1999.)

[SCMatt33]

I always like to play this game in my head with the following ground rules:

1. You can swap any two years you want. Nothing is untouchable, and even bad teams can be elevated to a title.
2. The trade will be an even swap. If you want to elevate 2014 for 1991 for example, 1991 now lost in the 1st round.
3. History doesn't change. If you elevate a year in which Carolina won a title, they get swapped into the title year Duke vacates.

At the end of the day, I usually find myself standing pat. The only ones I come close to doing are trading '01 for either '99 or '06 (that one is only because I'm selfish and I was a freshman back then and would get to experience a title while a student). '99 would have been remembered as one of the best of all time, and Battier gets to keep his ring to boot.

[Reddevil]

I realize this is just a fun fantasy type game we are playing, but every time I think about making a change, I think about taking away the joy from a team that took the journey together to the top of the mountain. As painful as some of the losses were, I cannot justify inflicting it upon champions. "I could've missed the pain, but THEY would have missed the dance". The ones that just missed out would not take it from those who won, so I can't either. I just wish '78, '86, '94, and '99 had all won - and I'll throw in '02 as well - Boozer was mugged! Ultimately, if we took it away from any of the teams that won, we would be here wishing they had won. It is an exercise in frustration. I am thankful for the journey these kids have taken me through. All of them.

[brevity]

I could stand the 1992 National Champions losing to Indiana as long as Indiana beat Michigan in the finals.

I'm not so sure you would. This would give Bob Knight his 4th title (not so bad now that Coach K has 5) and Indiana its 6th title (which puts them ahead of Duke and UNC, and ties them with delusional UNC).

[MarkD83]

I'm not so sure you would. This would give Bob Knight his 4th title (not so bad now that Coach K has 5) and Indiana its 6th title (which puts them ahead of Duke and UNC, and ties them with delusional UNC).

Yes but imagine a Fab Five documentary being played every day on ESPN that ends in a National Championship with Jalen Rose referring to it on every NBA broadcast.

[brevity]

I could stand the 1992 National Champions losing to Indiana as long as Indiana beat Michigan in the finals.


I'm not so sure you would. This would give Bob Knight his 4th title (not so bad now that Coach K has 5) and Indiana its 6th title (which puts them ahead of Duke and UNC, and ties them with delusional UNC).


Yes but imagine a Fab Five documentary being played every day on ESPN that ends in a National Championship with Jalen Rose referring to it on every NBA broadcast.

Wow, totally not my point. I'm only saying that sacrificing the 1992 championship that particular way gives Indiana more titles than Duke now. I am silent on the subject of Michigan.

[MarkD83]

Wow, totally not my point. I'm only saying that sacrificing the 1992 championship that particular way gives Indiana more titles than Duke now. I am silent on the subject of Michigan.

Got it. I am a bit indifferent that Indiana would have more championships. I usually don't hear IU fans or players make annoying comments about how many championships they have. Of course in the safe zone that is DBR we can brag about 5 National Championships.

[SCMatt33]

Got it. I am a bit indifferent that Indiana would have more championships. I usually don't hear IU fans or players make annoying comments about how many championships they have. Of course in the safe zone that is DBR we can brag about 5 National Championships.

It's kind of weird for IU in that they have 5 championships, but the rest of their history (wins, FF's, Tourney appearances, etc)doesn't come close to stacking up with other programs. Combined with the fact that in the last 20 years, they've basically been a second tier Big Ten team (1 FF and 3 S16's in that time), it's hard to brag too much if you're an IU fan. Plus from my experiences at the last two Final Fours there, Indiana seems to genuinely have nice people.

[DukeandMdFan]

As long as we're playing what if and ranking championships and talking about which is the greatest Duke team - how about the alternate universe option.

I read this article http://www.reviewjournal.com/columns-blogs/ed-graney/20-years-one-regret-butler-s-near-miracle-against-duke and I have to admit, when he describes what the Butler team was planning to do, I'm kinda sorry we didn't get to see it.

But I wouldn't want to give up a Duke Championship.

I would, however, be willing to trade 2010 for 1986.

How about everybody else. If you had to trade one Duke Championship for another team, which ones would you trade? In my mind, I'm trading winning teams with teams that lost in the finals but I suppose a Final Four loss is OK. That puts 1989, 1990, and 2004 on the table. Wow. I just got impressed with Coach K all over again. 12 Final Fours, 9 Championship games.

I would also trade 2010 for 1986.

In a couple years, I would probably be willing to trade 2015 for 1978.

Speaking of 1978, could it be that some powers-that-be already swapped 1978 and 1995? (If so, I'm glad they did.)

[Bostondevil]

I guess I'm old but I might be willing to trade the 1993 championship for the 1978 final that we lost to Jack Givens and Kentucky. That was a very likeable team in the days before "Duke hate" existed (hell, most people in the country loved Duke that year) and before the OAD's, fake classes, and other more recent college BB shenanigans existed. Furthermore, that team came out of no where to make it to the finals. It was truly unbelievable that they even got as far as they did and, to have won it all, would have been a miracle. I'm not sure that more recent Duke grads realize how bad Duke BB was in the early to mid 70's. They were pretty much bottom of the barrel in the ACC year after year. Perhaps a little like Wake Forest is now. I can remember going to games at Cameron against other ACC teams knowing (or assuming) that Duke would lose. It was only a question of how bad the loss would be. I can also remember many of my dorm mates bitterly complaining after all of the losses how Duke had been screwed by bad calls from the refs (a la Bo Ryan!!). But, like the Duke/Wisconsin game, the unfortunate reality is that the other teams had better players than Duke and simple outplayed Duke most of the time.

I'm old too and I grew up in Durham. Whenever any young whippersnapper gives me grief about hating Duke, I ask them if they remember Willie Hodge. Then I tell them he was my first favorite Duke player and when they are ready to discuss his career with me, I'd be happy to hear their opinions of Duke Basketball.

[Bostondevil]

I would also trade 2010 for 1986.

In a couple years, I would probably be willing to trade 2015 for 1978.

Speaking of 1978, could it be that some powers-that-be already swapped 1978 and 1995? (If so, I'm glad they did.)

I realize in this discussion that '10 for '86 is the only trade I'd be willing to make - thanks for joining me! I wouldn't give up either the '91 or '92 Championships even for '86. I graduated in '85 and went to graduate school at SMU in Dallas. I was at the '86 Final Four. Those were my guys as I knew several members of the '86 team, so, it's mostly for selfish reasons that I'd make that trade. Mostly. There's also this - having the first in '86 would mean nearly 30 years between the first and the most recent. Which is just one more amazing thing to say about Coach. He'll just have to hang around and win a 6th (or 7th or 8th) in 2021.

And another reason I'd give up 2010 is because - Butler. That would have made a great story and an incredible Tourney memory. Big downside though, the Hayward shot would probably have replaced the Laettner shot as the most iconic Tourney moment of all time. I'd rather the Laettner shot be replaced by either another Dukie or by somebody hitting an amazing buzzer beater to take out UNC. The Laettner shot will probably be replaced someday. I'll be sad when it does, but Kentucky fans will probably be grateful.

(I'm glad we don't see the ball going through Buckner's legs so much anymore.)

[hurleyfor3]

I was on campus for the first two titles and in the building for the last two.

So I'd trade 2001 for a year in which I would have been able to experience the championship more directly -- '90, '93 or any year since and including '04.

[Bostondevil]

Somebody asked but I can never find the reputation comments again after I look at them, so, don't remember who but I think it might have been one of the mods, -jk maybe?

Anyway - somebody did ask this.

I'm Parkwood Elementary/Lowes Grove Junior High/Jordan High. I was captain of the cheerleading squad for my senior year, '80-'81, when the Jordan Falcons (starting 5 - David Shaffer, Scott Pearce, Cliff Morris, Dallas Simmons, and Andre Webb) won the North Carolina State 3A Basketball Championship over R.S. Central - the team that had beaten Jordan in the semi finals the year before. The Falcons came from 7 points down in the 4th quarter to win. I maintain that the cheerleaders had a little something to do with that. Since Duke did not win in Dallas in '86, the '81 North Carolina State 3A Basketball Championship will forever remain the top sporting event memory of my life. Get That Falcon Beat!!

Up until 1980, the state championships were always held at Durham High School's gym. In 1981 they moved to the Greensboro Coliseum.

[Kfanarmy]

The foul was not flagrant nor illegal, and IIRC there was no controversy per the knowledgeable posters on these boards.

ricks

Say what?

[DukeandMdFan]

I realize in this discussion that '10 for '86 is the only trade I'd be willing to make - thanks for joining me! I wouldn't give up either the '91 or '92 Championships even for '86. I graduated in '85 and went to graduate school at SMU in Dallas. I was at the '86 Final Four. Those were my guys as I knew several members of the '86 team, so, it's mostly for selfish reasons that I'd make that trade. Mostly. There's also this - having the first in '86 would mean nearly 30 years between the first and the most recent. Which is just one more amazing thing to say about Coach. He'll just have to hang around and win a 6th (or 7th or 8th) in 2021.

And another reason I'd give up 2010 is because - Butler. That would have made a great story and an incredible Tourney memory. Big downside though, the Hayward shot would probably have replaced the Laettner shot as the most iconic Tourney moment of all time. I'd rather the Laettner shot be replaced by either another Dukie or by somebody hitting an amazing buzzer beater to take out UNC. The Laettner shot will probably be replaced someday. I'll be sad when it does, but Kentucky fans will probably be grateful.

(I'm glad we don't see the ball going through Buckner's legs so much anymore.)

I'm a Yankees fan and am happy to not see Buckner's error anymore - he certainly didn't deserve the infamy. For a brief moment, I thought ND's Grant's shot against Kentucky would replace Laettner's shot, but it didn't fall. It is surprising that Lorenzo Charles's shot isn't shown nearly as much as Laettner's.

I wasn't at any of the '86 tournament - just thought the team was very likeable. I did go to the '92 Final Four and witnessed both of Laettner's buzzer beaters, Phil Henderson's dunk over Alonzo Mourning, and Billy King shutting down Mark Macon.

I thought about trading the '91 championship for '88 or '89 since Billy McCaffrey would have really been the only one who would have been left without a championship. But, the back-to-back is what made those teams so special.

I also thought that trading the 2010 season for the 1986 wouldn't be bad for the 2010 team. 1986 was a great season.