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Zeb
04-07-2015, 05:14 PM
So will Rasheed get a ring? Will Semi?

swood1000
04-07-2015, 05:44 PM
So will Rasheed get a ring? Will Semi?
Semi won't get one. Same thing happened to Seth Curry in 2010.

MCFinARL
04-07-2015, 05:47 PM
So will Rasheed get a ring? Will Semi?

I wouldn't think so. I don't think they are even allowed to give Sean Obi a ring (I remember they couldn't give Seth Curry one in 2010), and he is still on the team (albeit not playing).

freshmanjs
04-07-2015, 05:50 PM
Semi won't get one. Same thing happened to Seth Curry in 2010.

?? Seth Curry did not transfer out of Duke after first semester in 2009-10.

MCFinARL
04-07-2015, 05:51 PM
?? Seth Curry did not transfer out of Duke after first semester in 2009-10.

Yes, I think the poster may have been confusing Semi with Sean, who is in Seth Curry's position as a transfer who is not yet eligible to play.

Kedsy
04-07-2015, 05:51 PM
Semi won't get one. Same thing happened to Seth Curry in 2010.

Semi transferred out, that's why he won't get one (similar to Olek Czyz in 2010). Since you're talking about Seth Curry, I assume you mean Sean Obi won't get one, which is correct unless they've changed the rules since 2010.

Speaking of Seth and Sean, though, it's interesting that our last three championship teams have all had an incoming transfer (2001 had Dahntay Jones) practicing with the team (during a redshirt season), especially since Coach K has only taken in five transfers during his time here. One of the other incoming transfers (Rodney Hood) practiced with an Elite Eight team while he redshirted, meaning the only incoming transfer under Coach K who didn't have this effect was Roshown McLeod in 1996.

swood1000
04-07-2015, 06:48 PM
Semi transferred out, that's why he won't get one (similar to Olek Czyz in 2010). Since you're talking about Seth Curry, I assume you mean Sean Obi won't get one, which is correct unless they've changed the rules since 2010.

Speaking of Seth and Sean, though, it's interesting that our last three championship teams have all had an incoming transfer (2001 had Dahntay Jones) practicing with the team (during a redshirt season), especially since Coach K has only taken in five transfers during his time here. One of the other incoming transfers (Rodney Hood) practiced with an Elite Eight team while he redshirted, meaning the only incoming transfer under Coach K who didn't have this effect was Roshown McLeod in 1996.
Yes, I meant that Sean won't get one.

rifraf
04-08-2015, 09:05 AM
I remember reading that Seth Curry's parents were able to purchase a championship ring for him. K had no problem with him getting a ring, and even spoke out that it's ridiculous he can't have one. I believe the NCAA only restricts the University from providing it. Does that ring a bell with anyone?

Bluedog
04-08-2015, 09:31 AM
I remember reading that Seth Curry's parents were able to purchase a championship ring for him. K had no problem with him getting a ring, and even spoke out that it's ridiculous he can't have one. I believe the NCAA only restricts the University from providing it. Does that ring a bell with anyone?

I don't recall that. In fact, Coach K spoke out about the fact that Seth couldn't even BUY a ring at the time if he wanted to:
http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-22610.html

rifraf
04-08-2015, 09:34 AM
I don't recall that. In fact, Coach K spoke out about the fact that Seth couldn't even BUY a ring at the time if he wanted to:
http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-22610.html

Ah maybe I misremembered and got it completely backwards. Thanks

ikiru36
04-08-2015, 09:34 AM
I don't recall that. In fact, Coach K spoke out about the fact that Seth couldn't even BUY a ring at the time if he wanted to:
http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-22610.html
If not, perhaps Larry Fedora would buy one for each of them?

GTHCGTH!!!! Go Blue Devils!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

swood1000
04-08-2015, 10:09 AM
I don't recall that. In fact, Coach K spoke out about the fact that Seth couldn't even BUY a ring at the time if he wanted to:
http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-22610.html
On the other hand, anybody can walk into a jeweler with a picture and specifications and have a ring made.

swood1000
04-08-2015, 10:44 AM
On the other hand, anybody can walk into a jeweler with a picture and specifications and have a ring made.
The limitation must be that it can't be part of the original "batch," since the non-athletes can't get a ring from the original batch.

Henderson
04-08-2015, 10:48 AM
On the other hand, anybody can walk into a jeweler with a picture and specifications and have a ring made.


The limitation must be that it can't be part of the original "batch," since the non-athletes can't get a ring from the original batch.

Are you sure one could legally have an exact replica made? I'd think there would be intellectual property issues, just as with knock-off t-shirts, hats, etc.

swood1000
04-08-2015, 11:01 AM
Are you sure one could legally have an exact replica made? I'd think there would be intellectual property issues, just as with knock-off t-shirts, hats, etc.
No, but the issue with the knock-off t-shirts is that the income being generated should be going to the owner of the intellectual property, whereas here there is no income being generated. Also, the owner of the intellectual property is Duke University, who is not required to sue or threaten somebody. Also, if Duke declines to enforce its rights whenever anyone has such a ring made for his personal use, it could not be claimed that a student-athlete is getting a special benefit by this.

rifraf
04-08-2015, 11:03 AM
Might be a little tricky since it has the official final four logo on it right? Wouldn't the NCAA be required to provide consent?

swood1000
04-08-2015, 11:13 AM
Might be a little tricky since it has the official final four logo on it right? Wouldn't the NCAA be required to provide consent?
Good point. So the NCAA also might own some intellectual property here. But the NCAA probably has enough actual infringements of its intellectual property to contend with. It seems unlikely that they would take the time and expense to sue an indivicual who had a ring made for his personal use that included the NCAA logo. And if they did they could win an award in the amount of the loss that they suffered but the person would probably be able to keep the ring (perhaps someone with actual knowledge of trademark infringement could correct me).

rifraf
04-08-2015, 02:04 PM
But the NCAA probably has enough actual infringements of its intellectual property to contend with. It seems unlikely that they would take the time and expense to sue an indivicual who had a ring made for his personal use that included the NCAA logo.

I would have thought so, however I had an interesting conversation with Badger fans. Apparently Wisconsin started selling t-shirts with the words Nigel Hayes was saying to stenographers printed on it. The NCAA put a stop to it because the press conferences are copywritten by the NCAA.

hurleyfor3
04-08-2015, 02:07 PM
Are you sure one could legally have an exact replica made? I'd think there would be intellectual property issues, just as with knock-off t-shirts, hats, etc.

One day I came home to discover everything in my house had been stolen and replaced with an exact replica. -- Steven Wright

swood1000
04-08-2015, 02:15 PM
I would have thought so, however I had an interesting conversation with Badger fans. Apparently Wisconsin started selling t-shirts with the words Nigel Hayes was saying to stenographers printed on it. The NCAA put a stop to it because the press conferences are copywritten by the NCAA.
OK, but this is a reference to a "real" infringement of its intellectual property, since there is income involved in the selling of t-shirts and they want their cut. They probably have an incentive to make a fuss in every instance of this happening, just to let it be known that nobody gets away with it. But in the case of a ring created by a person for his personal use, what is their incentive?

rifraf
04-08-2015, 02:33 PM
OK, but this is a reference to a "real" infringement of its intellectual property, since there is income involved in the selling of t-shirts and they want their cut. They probably have an incentive to make a fuss in every instance of this happening, just to let it be known that nobody gets away with it. But in the case of a ring created by a person for his personal use, what is their incentive?

I would think the same thing. Income was made by the company selling the ring, just like income is made by the people selling the t-shirt.

I don't think the NCAA would get involved if I screenprinted a shirt myself with my own equipment, just as I can't see them getting made about someone casting their own ring...but once you go to a vendor who charges you to create it it's the same thing.

swood1000
04-08-2015, 09:06 PM
I would think the same thing. Income was made by the company selling the ring, just like income is made by the people selling the t-shirt.

I don't think the NCAA would get involved if I screenprinted a shirt myself with my own equipment, just as I can't see them getting made about someone casting their own ring...but once you go to a vendor who charges you to create it it's the same thing.
No, it has to come down to the amount of money that's involved. In the case of a large number of T-shirts the licensing fee might be significant. And in any event the NCAA knows that even if one vendor doesn't involve a huge number of T-shirts, if a lot of people are doing the same thing (which would be likely if the NCAA didn't pursue these cases), there are some significant lost fees involved in total. So if they go after the T-shirts they will spend less on lawyer's fees than they recoup by enforcing their trademark.

But in the case of one person with one ring not only is the lost licensing fee too small to warrant sending the lawyers after, but there is no risk that a great many individuals will be doing the same thing. On the other hand, if a jeweler decided to mass-produce such rings it would be an entirely different matter. In that case the lost revenue to the NCAA might be significant.

And in any event the jeweler could contact the NCAA and say "I'm making a custom ring that includes the NCAA logo. What's the charge?"

Henderson
04-08-2015, 09:25 PM
OK, but this is a reference to a "real" infringement of its intellectual property, since there is income involved in the selling of t-shirts and they want their cut. They probably have an incentive to make a fuss in every instance of this happening, just to let it be known that nobody gets away with it. But in the case of a ring created by a person for his personal use, what is their incentive?

You answered your own question. They go after small infringers in part to make clear to larger infringers that they have a bright line. None Shall Pass. They don't care how much you're making off your product (and a jeweller does get paid for creating the ring). For them, it's SOP, and they have teams of people watching. Teams. Literally full-time employees watching for any infringement, ready to send a nasty-gram.

More technically, they see themselves as up against the doctrine of abandonment, whereby a failure to assert copyright or trademark eventually waives the holder's rights. These folks are serious, and to them every camel's nose is sneaking under the tent, potentially destroying

Neals384
04-08-2015, 09:51 PM
If Dean can leave $$$ to his players in his will, maybe K can leave rings to Curry and Obi in his will.

juise
04-08-2015, 09:58 PM
If Dean can leave $$$ to his players in his will, maybe K can leave rings to Curry and Obi in his will.

Don't forget Dahntay! Or do you think he's out of the will for the dunk at UVA? ;)

swood1000
04-09-2015, 08:42 AM
You answered your own question. They go after small infringers in part to make clear to larger infringers that they have a bright line. None Shall Pass. They don't care how much you're making off your product (and a jeweller does get paid for creating the ring). For them, it's SOP, and they have teams of people watching. Teams. Literally full-time employees watching for any infringement, ready to send a nasty-gram.

More technically, they see themselves as up against the doctrine of abandonment, whereby a failure to assert copyright or trademark eventually waives the holder's rights. These folks are serious, and to them every camel's nose is sneaking under the tent, potentially destroying
It's possible. Maybe it would be better for the jeweler just to pay whatever small licensing fee the NCAA might charge for one ring. On the other hand, a ring does not advertise its contents to the world the same way that a T-shirt does. Also, the student-athlete who was forced to buy his own championship ring is already a sympathetic figure with the general public, and the NCAA, whose harsh ruling put him in this situation, might not want to risk being seen as double the villain. Such an action would not be profitable for them under any view of the matter.

MCFinARL
04-09-2015, 10:46 AM
It's possible. Maybe it would be better for the jeweler just to pay whatever small licensing fee the NCAA might charge for one ring. On the other hand, a ring does not advertise its contents to the world the same way that a T-shirt does. Also, the student-athlete who was forced to buy his own championship ring is already a sympathetic figure with the general public, and the NCAA, whose harsh ruling put him in this situation, might not want to risk being seen as double the villain. Such an action would not be profitable for them under any view of the matter.

At least they apparently thought it was okay for Sean Obi to get a hat. http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=210009799&DB_OEM_ID=4200

(Sorry I couldn't figure out how to paste the photo in directly.)

rocketeli
04-09-2015, 11:07 AM
The ENTIRE design of the ring would be copyrighted of course, not just the words NCAA or whatever. And as of course as other posters have pointed out, if you let others use your trademark, you lose it, and all the revenue it generates, so they do defend it to the death.

What we need is a more creative solution--if someone thinks others sould have rings, how about someone designs a new ring, (you can't copyright the idea of rings, or a blue stone etc.) which also references the basic style and mentions "Duke' or "champions" or similar (if DU basketball office does this I can't think there would be any problem with permission to use the trademarks) and have a limited edition made for people like Sean to have. (or hey, maybe if you give enough to the Iron Dukes or whatever you get a "special ring" too)

Henderson
04-09-2015, 11:36 AM
At least they apparently thought it was okay for Sean Obi to get a hat. http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=210009799&DB_OEM_ID=4200

(Sorry I couldn't figure out how to paste the photo in directly.)

The NCAA can give student athletes hats.


The ENTIRE design of the ring would be copyrighted of course, not just the words NCAA or whatever. And as of course as other posters have pointed out, if you let others use your trademark, you lose it, and all the revenue it generates, so they do defend it to the death.

What we need is a more creative solution--if someone thinks others sould have rings, how about someone designs a new ring, (you can't copyright the idea of rings, or a blue stone etc.) which also references the basic style and mentions "Duke' or "champions" or similar (if DU basketball office does this I can't think there would be any problem with permission to use the trademarks) and have a limited edition made for people like Sean to have. (or hey, maybe if you give enough to the Iron Dukes or whatever you get a "special ring" too)

Someone upstream mentioned a license request to the NCAA (or whoever owns the intellectual property in the ring). That sort of thing is generally well-received by the owner of the IP, because if they grant a license they are still protecting their marks. I've seen that many times: Small business guy wants to open a hot dog cart in Norman called "Sooner Dogs" using the OU logo. He sends a letter to whoever is in charge of guarding OU's marks and asks for a license to do so. OU sends him a letter saying he can have a one-year renewable license for free for one cart only. Everybody's happy.

Show producers do this all the time too. Local HS choral ensemble wants to sing "Billy Jean" at an event. That song is copyrighted and can't be performed for pay without the permission of the copyright holder. So the high school sends a letter to the copyright holder (they're easy to find) asking permission. The copyright holder almost always says yes to such requests and almost never asks for a fee. Again, everybody happy.

So in this case, jeweler asks for a one-time license to produce a single replica ring. See what the NCAA says. If they say no or want to charge too much, sorry, but you can't do the ring without opening yourself to legal trouble.

There's also the principle of "It's better to ask forgiveness than permission." But I've seen how aggressively these people police their IP, and it surprises hundreds of little producers of things every year. I've personally watched reps of a BCS school walk through a tailgate area with the police confiscating unlicensed gear. So I wouldn't try that when it comes to sports marketing. They'll get you, and they won't be gentle about it.

Henderson
04-09-2015, 11:52 AM
Here's another funny sports marketing war story, with circumstances changed to protect identities. It just illustrates how far sports people go to protect their trademarks and other intellectual property.

Major University had an eagle mascot, and they owned the trademark for that image, which was designed for them by a major shoe company.

High school in rural Arkansas, also nicknamed The Eagles, puts down a new gym floor with an eagle logo based closely on that of Major University. The Women's Auxiliary produces 100 T-shirts with that logo to sell so the kids can travel to a state tourney. It's a nice graphic, and they can't afford to pay a designer to come up with something original. Happens all the time.

Major University gets wind of this (the IP police are out there and motivated) and sends a cease-and-desist letter to little high school demanding that they rip up their new gym floor and burn the shirts unless they request and receive a license from Major University. Local Arkansas town is freaked out and says, "Please, sir, may we have a license?" Major University says, "OK, for free, but don't do it again without asking."

The story is replicated over and over every year, and the reaction of the alleged infringer is always, "Geez, we're so tiny, I didn't think they'd care." Well, they do.

swood1000
04-09-2015, 12:18 PM
The ENTIRE design of the ring would be copyrighted of course, not just the words NCAA or whatever. And as of course as other posters have pointed out, if you let others use your trademark, you lose it, and all the revenue it generates, so they do defend it to the death.

Maybe the solution here is for Duke to grant permission to all single-ring requests and refuse or charge for the others. Then contact the NCAA and pay their small licensing fee, if they want one.

Merlindevildog91
04-09-2015, 01:19 PM
Here's another funny sports marketing war story, with circumstances changed to protect identities. It just illustrates how far sports people go to protect their trademarks and other intellectual property.

Major University had an eagle mascot, and they owned the trademark for that image, which was designed for them by a major shoe company.

High school in rural Arkansas, also nicknamed The Eagles, puts down a new gym floor with an eagle logo based closely on that of Major University. The Women's Auxiliary produces 100 T-shirts with that logo to sell so the kids can travel to a state tourney. It's a nice graphic, and they can't afford to pay a designer to come up with something original. Happens all the time.

Major University gets wind of this (the IP police are out there and motivated) and sends a cease-and-desist letter to little high school demanding that they rip up their new gym floor and burn the shirts unless they request and receive a license from Major University. Local Arkansas town is freaked out and says, "Please, sir, may we have a license?" Major University says, "OK, for free, but don't do it again without asking."

The story is replicated over and over every year, and the reaction of the alleged infringer is always, "Geez, we're so tiny, I didn't think they'd care." Well, they do.

When I was in high school, the mascot, a Patriot, looked like the statue of a minuteman. After deciding that sports was way more important than silly little things like education or character, the powers that be changed the mascot and added red to the original color scheme of royal blue and white. I won't say whose mascot they ripped off, but Tom Brady has it on his helmet every week during the NFL season. Always wondered if the infringee knew and would care if they did, but wasn't motivated enough to find out.

swood1000
04-09-2015, 04:02 PM
When I was in high school, the mascot, a Patriot, looked like the statue of a minuteman. After deciding that sports was way more important than silly little things like education or character, the powers that be changed the mascot and added red to the original color scheme of royal blue and white. I won't say whose mascot they ripped off, but Tom Brady has it on his helmet every week during the NFL season. Always wondered if the infringee knew and would care if they did, but wasn't motivated enough to find out.
Then again these are not all slam-dunk situations. The question is whether the logo looked enough like the other one to create confusion in the mind of the general public. Would the general public think that this was the logo of the NFL team and the high school team had some sort of connection with them? I handled a case in this area in one of my previous lives. My brother-in-law had the initials MM and he wanted a logo with lower-case mm that bore a resemblance to the m&m's candy logo. The question was whether he might run into trouble down the road from the Mars Company. (A subsidiary and equally important question was whether he was willing to pay me to research the question. That was decided on the side of family and he ended up getting a little free legal research.) I came away with the conclusion that how close is too close and what constitutes confusion has no easy answer. Each case is so specific that it's hard to generalize. (If you ever have a case in this area go to somebody who specializes in this.) He realized that the side with the deep pockets can outlast the other side if they want to and he decided that he didn't like this particular logo enough to put up with the uncertainty.

Merlindevildog91
04-09-2015, 04:17 PM
Then again these are not all slam-dunk situations. The question is whether the logo looked enough like the other one to create confusion in the mind of the general public. Would the general public think that this was the logo of the NFL team and the high school team had some sort of connection with them? I handled a case in this area in one of my previous lives. My brother-in-law had the initials MM and he wanted a logo with lower-case mm that bore a resemblance to the m&m's candy logo. The question was whether he might run into trouble down the road from the Mars Company. (A subsidiary and equally important question was whether he was willing to pay me to research the question. That was decided on the side of family and he ended up getting a little free legal research.) I came away with the conclusion that how close is too close and what constitutes confusion has no easy answer. Each case is so specific that it's hard to generalize. (If you ever have a case in this area go to somebody who specializes in this.) He realized that the side with the deep pockets can outlast the other side if they want to and he decided that he didn't like this particular logo enough to put up with the uncertainty.

The old high school logo looks PRECISELY like the New England one. It's not close to the New England area, so maybe the distance is advantageous.

Since my eyes glazed over at the very mention of trademark and copyright in law school, it's not overly likely I would bother to look into this unless someone decided to make it well worth my while.

Back to the matter at hand; I do think it's lousy that Sean has to pay his own freight to be on the bench and that he, like Seth Curry, doesn't get a ring. Way to go, NCAA!

swood1000
04-09-2015, 04:46 PM
Back to the matter at hand; I do think it's lousy that Sean has to pay his own freight to be on the bench and that he, like Seth Curry, doesn't get a ring. Way to go, NCAA!
I think the conclusion I've come to is that he can have a ring but he has to pay for it himself, have it custom-built, and jump through the right hoops. He has the right do do anything that the man on the street has a right to do. He just needs to make sure that nothing about it constitutes a benefit from Duke that regular students don't have access to. Since his family was apparently willing and able to foot his travel bill this season so he could accompany the team on road trips, maybe they'll buy him a ring too. Unfortunately, what might cost $415 per ring when bought in bulk will cost quite a bit more when a single one is custom-built. Of course if Duke in the past has pursued people who created individual rings for themselves then their failure to do the same in Sean's case would likely be seen as a benefit to him.

Henderson
04-09-2015, 08:22 PM
Then again these are not all slam-dunk situations. The question is whether the logo looked enough like the other one to create confusion in the mind of the general public. Would the general public think that this was the logo of the NFL team and the high school team had some sort of connection with them? I handled a case in this area in one of my previous lives. My brother-in-law had the initials MM and he wanted a logo with lower-case mm that bore a resemblance to the m&m's candy logo. The question was whether he might run into trouble down the road from the Mars Company. (A subsidiary and equally important question was whether he was willing to pay me to research the question. That was decided on the side of family and he ended up getting a little free legal research.) I came away with the conclusion that how close is too close and what constitutes confusion has no easy answer. Each case is so specific that it's hard to generalize. (If you ever have a case in this area go to somebody who specializes in this.) He realized that the side with the deep pockets can outlast the other side if they want to and he decided that he didn't like this particular logo enough to put up with the uncertainty.

You nailed it. When the big boys come knocking, they're perfectly willing to grind your family's life savings into dust. All over a t-shirt or ring. It's a matter of principle, don't you see.... They'll spend $100k to keep you from making $100 on some t-shirts. You won't spend $100k to make $100 on some t-shirts.

They know that. So did your brother-in-law.

msdukie
04-10-2015, 12:23 AM
I remember seeing a special in 2002 on TV where they were interviewing Dahntay's mother in 2002 and she pulled his 2001 NC ring out of a cabinet and showed it off. So, I don't know if the transfer ring rule changed at all between 2001 and 2010.

SCMatt33
04-10-2015, 10:25 AM
I remember seeing a special in 2002 on TV where they were interviewing Dahntay's mother in 2002 and she pulled his 2001 NC ring out of a cabinet and showed it off. So, I don't know if the transfer ring rule changed at all between 2001 and 2010.

For those wondering, here is the exact rule out the NCAA DI Manual with emphasis added:


Awards for Winning Conference and National Championships.
Awards for winning an individual or team conference or national championship may be presented each year, limited in value and number as specified in Figure 16 2. Awards for winning a conference or national championship in a team sport may be provided only to student-athletes who were eligible to participate in the championship event. The total value of any single award received for a national championship may not exceed $415. The total value of any single award received for a conference championship may not exceed $325, and each permissible awarding agency is subject to a separate $325 limit per award. Each permissible awarding agency may provide only a single award for each championship to each student-athlete. Separate awards may be presented to both the regular-season conference champion and the postseason conference champion (with a separate $325 limitation), but if the same institution wins both the regular-season and postseason conference championship, the combined value of both awards shall not exceed $325. [R] (Revised: 4/25/02 effective 8/1/02)

So it is by rule that Obi cannot receive a ring, and the rule was revised in 2002, so Dahntay would not have fallen under the same rule, but Seth did.