PDA

View Full Version : Len Bias



Uncle Drew
09-21-2007, 06:59 PM
First off, much thanks to DBR for posting the Larry Bird You Tube clip. In the words of Charles Barkley, "that's one bad *** white boy". But every time I see clips of the Celtics durring their dominant 1980's form it always reminds me of one guy and pose the question, "what if"?

For those too young to have seen Coach K's first great Duke team featuring Johnny Dawkins, Mark Alarie, Jay Bilas etc. you were also too young to have seen one of, if not the greatest players in ACC history. David Thompson is always mentioned as perhaps the greatest ACC player ever, and the clips I've seen of him were truly dominant. Ralph Sampson had no equal at his position in college and his UVA team handed Duke it's worst ever defeat (43 points) in the 1983 ACC tournament. Carolina fans will always try and throw Michael Jordan into the mix, but even though he was voted player of the year he exploded AFTER he left UNC. Phil Ford was another great player for UNC but by no means as big a scorer as the previously mentioned players. And we Duke fans can always throw Christian Laettner into the debate, no ACC player EVER had the NCAA success he did and probably never will. But Laettner played with a great supporting cast, the cupboard is rarely bare at UNC when tallent is concerned, David Thompson had Burleson and others around him and even Sampson had some good outside guards to play with. One guy who finished his ACC career in 1986 had very little tallent around him yet was able to put up 40 points on Duke in Cameron Indoor Stadium, Len Bias. I saw that game in person and the only way Duke had to stop him was keep the ball out of his hands.

Len Bias died two days after being selected by the Boston Celtics with the second pick in the NBA draft from a cocaine overdose. The fallout from the tragedy eventually ended Lefty Driesell's tenure as coach of Maryland, and caused the program to fall onto hard times like it hadn't seen in years. A friend of mine who is a Maryland fan (yes we can be friends, we both hate UNC!) and I think Len Bias was the greatest ACC player of all time. The next best player on any of his teams was Chris Gatling, Bias had no one to help shoulder the load as all the other "greats" had. And we also think had he lived (and not died of an overdose at some future time) the Celtics would have been a dynasty well into the 1990's. A year or two after Bias died is when Lary Bird started having the back problems that ended his career, if Bias had been healthy Bird could have played fewer minutes in Celtic blowouts. McHale, Ainge and Dennis Johnson were still in their prime. And you still had Robert Parish and Bill Walton to contribute as their careers neared an end. In my opinion if Bias had not died, you could wipe away the Pistons back to back championships and most likely the first Bulls threepeat. Jordan fans consider that plasphemy, but Bias was every bit as athletic as Jordan if not more so. He only lacked Nike and the NBA over-hyping him like Michael had. Oh well we'll never know, and I hate terms like "the greatest" because players with different team mates and in different systems is hard to debate. But I truly believe one of the things that made MJ the icon he was is the fact he had no arch nemesis like Larry Bird had with Magic. His natural rival died before his time and it's anyones guess how the past twenty years would look for the NBA and ACC had Bias lived.

dkbaseball
09-21-2007, 07:44 PM
Yeah, Lenny was great, but he didn't have quite that much potential, IMO. An amazing body for hoops, great motor and athleticism, but he was a little rigid, a little bit straight up and down, which limited his offensive potential. I think he could have been a Dennis Rodman, with lots of offense (if he'd had anywhere near Rodman's interest in playing defense and rebounding), and that package would have made him an NBA great. But not quite on a level with MJ, Magic, Bird, and some other really creative players, again IMO.

I think he gives the Celtics a better crack at the Lakers in '87 and '88, rather than later on. By '89, the Celtic nucleus was getting some serious age on it. Bird had been in the league ten years, Parrish 13, Ainge 12, McHale 9 and DJ 15. Lenny was seen as the cornerstone of the next generation of Celtic teams.

Too bad we never got a chance to find out.

And of course, as an old-timer I can't give anybody but DT the nod for best ever in the ACC. Maybe he just stood out more against less athletic competition, but he was absolutely stunning to watch up close and personal.

Uncle Drew
09-21-2007, 09:18 PM
I've only seen clips of David Thompson in action, I was 4 when he finished at NCSU. And he was extremely fluid, athletic and revolutionized the college game probably like no one since. I love the story about him being able to set objects ON TOP of the back board. That kind of jumping ability comes along probably once in a life time.

It's hard to compare players from era to era. I know for a fact the average player in college or the NBA today is MUCH more athletic overall than they were in 1974. And yet they are probably less fundamentaly sound as they were back in the day. Everyone has their opinion and I do respect yours and anyone elses. But Bias was a beast, plain and simple. Every freakin' time he touched the ball at MD he was double or tripple teamed. That's why I think he would have exploded much the way Jordan did in the NBA. They didn't allow zone defenses until a few years ago. Jordan ate other teams up and I think Bias would have done the same. Especially playing along side Bird, McHale etc.

Here's a question, for debate. Do you buy into the coke use / overdose was a 1st and only time thing? I've always found that one hard to accept, though possible. I know for a fact Lawrence Taylor was doing coke long before he ever made the NFL. I don't know how much boost / advantage if any cocaine would give an athlete. But it's also an intresting what if that applies to Len Bias.

Indoor66
09-21-2007, 09:57 PM
But Bias was a beast, plain and simple. Every freakin' time he touched the ball at MD he was double or tripple teamed. That's why I think he would have exploded much the way Jordan did in the NBA.

All this applies to Thompson as well. Additionally, when Thompson played the Dunk was banned. He had to shoot all his shots. The Ally Oop was developed by Thompson and his passers, Towe and Stoddard.

captmojo
09-21-2007, 10:30 PM
The greatest play I ever saw Bias make was an in-bounds pass he made to himself, under his own basket. He tossed the ball off the back of a Carolina player and catching it before it hit the floor, he went up and slammed it through the nets. All this in front of a stunned Dean Dome bunch who went home very sad. Beautiful!:p

Uncle Drew
09-21-2007, 10:40 PM
The greatest play I ever saw Bias make was an in-bounds pass he made to himself, under his own basket. He tossed the ball off the back of a Carolina player and catching it before it hit the floor, he went up and slammed it through the nets. All this in front of a stunned Dean Dome bunch who went home very sad. Beautiful!:p

Yeah I remember that play VERY well. It was off Brad Daugherty's back, and that was UNC's first loss at the Dean Dome ever. One ironic thing about Bias and Thompson, they both ended up ruining their careers with cocaine. So since we're speculating here, how do you think Thompson would now be remembered in the NBA if he hadn't gotten hooked on the white powder?

TheTrain
09-22-2007, 12:49 AM
The next best player on any of his teams was Chris Gatling, Bias had no one to help shoulder the load as all the other "greats" had.

First of all, you are referring to Keith Gatlin (a longtime friend of mine) who was the starting PG. As for no other talent around him, that was true in 1986 when he had Gatlin, Speedy Jones, and Jeff Baxter as his primary supporting cast. But when he truly exploded in 1984 (his sophomore year), the Terps beat Duke for the ACC title with a team that included Adrian Branch among others. That was a deep deep Maryland team.

My father was the lead advertising sponsor for the Terps basketball program in those years and Bias was the best college player I have ever seen. Period. I was present for every home game of his career. As for the guy who called him rigid....quite frankly, you are nuts. His twisting moves to the hoop were a combination of power and grace that were a mixture of Barkley and Jordan. Blessed with a 44+ inch vertical leap, he had a turnaround jumper that was simply unstoppable...reminiscient of another Washington legend...Elvin Hayes.

While we are at it, the bouncing the ball off the back was Keith Gatlin...he bounced the ball off the back of Kenny Smith and laid it in at the end of the game. You are confusing it with the play in the 2nd half where he sunk a 20 footer and stole the inbounds pass out of the hands of Kenny Smith and did a 180 dunk. You can find the clip on YouTube.

Uncle Drew
09-22-2007, 01:10 AM
First of all, you are referring to Keith Gatlin (a longtime friend of mine) who was the starting PG. As for no other talent around him, that was true in 1986 when he had Gatlin, Speedy Jones, and Jeff Baxter as his primary supporting cast. But when he truly exploded in 1984 (his sophomore year), the Terps beat Duke for the ACC title with a team that included Adrian Branch among others. That was a deep deep Maryland team.

My father was the lead advertising sponsor for the Terps basketball program in those years and Bias was the best college player I have ever seen. Period. I was present for every home game of his career. As for the guy who called him rigid....quite frankly, you are nuts. His twisting moves to the hoop were a combination of power and grace that were a mixture of Barkley and Jordan. Blessed with a 44+ inch vertical leap, he had a turnaround jumper that was simply unstoppable...reminiscient of another Washington legend...Elvin Hayes.

While we are at it, the bouncing the ball off the back was Keith Gatlin...he bounced the ball off the back of Kenny Smith and laid it in at the end of the game. You are confusing it with the play in the 2nd half where he sunk a 20 footer and stole the inbounds pass out of the hands of Kenny Smith and did a 180 dunk. You can find the clip on YouTube.


Train,


You are 100% correct in the tallent Bias had around him when they beat Duke in the ACC championship game in 1984. I of course was refering to his senior year, and to remember any name from that far back for me is a miracle. But you're right again, it was Keith Gatlin. As far as the particular play I am recalling it was Bias's (and MD's) first game at the Dean Dome. It opened in 1986 (Duke lost the very first game there that year.) Brad Daugherty's senior year as well. I have seen replays of the game on ESPN classic, and there are 2 seperate plays by Bias. One was the bounce of Brads back and dunk, the commentators even question why Dean Smith had Brad not face the inbound passer. The other was a steal and then backwards dunk by bias to seal the win. If you have a link to the You Tube clip post it. Let the clip back up what we agree on, that Bias was an athletic, awesome basketball player.

4decadedukie
09-22-2007, 03:59 AM
I have an honest question that extends well beyond Len Bias. Let us stipulate that Bias was a superb athlete and a truly outstanding college player (which I believe he was). The term GREAT has been used numerous times in this thread, in referring to Bias. So, here is my question: Is character a necessary component of "greatness" or do competitiveness and athleticism alone suffice?

In a more-contemporary example, few would argue the Vick is an exceptional quarterback, but his alleged felonious activities certainly indicate a likely lack of integrity. Is Vick a "great" football player?

Finally, wasn't Shane Battier's leadership, ethics, off-court comportment, scholarship, outstanding decency, and so forth a fundamental reason many of us believe he was (and is) such a "great" Duke (and professional) star?

I am not trying to be a curmudgeon here; however, I increasingly believe that until fans demand character accompany athletic performance, the major and fundamental problems that plague collegiate and professional sports will only increase.

Bob Green
09-22-2007, 04:34 AM
The greatest basketball player in ACC history is David Thompson. Enough said! No argument or discussion.

Buckeye Devil
09-22-2007, 07:42 AM
I agree that Bias would have had a significant impact on the Celtics and they may have kept the Lakers from winning championships in the late 80's. I do not think that impact would have been enough to keep the Bulls from winning championships from 91-93. By that time, the Celtics were fairly old and could not have kept up with the younger Bulls.

The loss of Bias was the start of the demise of the Celtics as a powerhouse in the NBA, much to my regret as a lifelong Celtics fan. But I think that was an excuse that was long overused for their failures. The untimely death of Reggie Lewis was a huge hit also. But truthfully, I think any rational Celtics fan would admit that drafting has not been a strong point for the Celtics for a long time.

Granted, during the good years they did not always have very high picks. But the biggest impact player they drafted in recent years in my thinking was Chauncey Billups, but his impact has been with Detroit as the Celtics unloaded him.

At least they realize that they stink at drafting and with the moves this season have given themselves the best chance they have had in a long time to win-even if it only lasts for a few years.

gw67
09-22-2007, 08:25 AM
In addition to Gatlin, I recall that Ben Coleman was the center on one or two of those teams and I believe that he played in the pros for a while. Other players, Adkins, Veal, Lewis (?) were ACC quality players but were not special.

Bias was a terrific player, particularly during his junior and senior seasons. Bilas has often stated that he was the best he played against. The part of his game that I really liked was his form and feathery touch on the 12-15 foot jumpers. Defensive players could be right in his face and he would elevate and hit the jumper. He also shot well from the free throw line and was a good rebounder. I don't recall him being either a good defensive player or shot blocker which was surprising given his great leaping ability.

gw67

jimsumner
09-22-2007, 09:50 AM
Bob's right about DT. But Bias would be in the discussion for top 5. Keep in mind that he was ACC POY in 1985 and 1986, beating out a distinguished group that included Johnny Dawkins, Mark Price, and Brad Daugherty.

In 1986 Bias put on what may well be the best performance ever by a visiting player in Cameron. 43 points and this was against a GREAT Duke team. K felt that Bias alone couldn't beat Duke and he told Alarie before the game that he was on his own. Now Alarie was a splendid defender; he would hold Danny Manning to 4 points in the Final Four later that season. But he was helpless against Bias and that says something.

There is no doubt in my mind that Len Bias was a great college basketball player and likely would have been a great NBA player. The character concerns are valid but I think that's a different discussion, unless one has evidence that they (if they existed) adversely affected his performance on the court. And that's a pretty hard case to make.

Carlos
09-22-2007, 09:58 AM
Bias had decent talent around the first two years he was at Maryland but the supporting cast dropped off in his last two seasons. The 1983 team had Herman Veal (Duke fans should remember him), Ben Coleman, Adrian Branch, and Jeff Adkins. Coleman and Branch in particular were both very good players. All 4 of those guys were back in 1984 when Keith Gatlin joined the team.

The next year saw the departure of Veal and Coleman so the team was built around Bias, Gatlin, Branch, and Adkins. In his senior year Branch was gone so it was Bias, Gatlin, Adkins, and Jeff Baxter whose role expanded.

My favorite memory of Bias was during that game in the Dean Dome he went up to block a shot somewhere around halfway up the lane. As he was going up the courtside mics picked him up yelling "Gimme dat." Bias didn't just block the shot he literally caught it with one hand and pulled it out of mid-air.

It was one of the most remarkable blocks I've ever seen.

Olympic Fan
09-22-2007, 11:00 AM
A friend of mine who is a Maryland fan (yes we can be friends, we both hate UNC!) and I think Len Bias was the greatest ACC player of all time. The next best player on any of his teams was Chris Gatling, Bias had no one to help shoulder the load as all the other "greats" had.

You and your Maryland friend should learn a little history before you start pontificating about Bias being the greatest ever.

In the first place, your statement that "the next best player on any of his teams was Chris Gatling" is so wrong-headed that I don't know where to start correcting it.

(1) Bias never played with a player named Chris Gatling. Maryland never had a player named Chris Gatling. There was a player of that name who played at Old Dominion from 1988-91. Could you mean Keith Gatlin, who was an excellent play-making guard in the Bias era (who long long held the ACC Tournament assist record)?

(2) As a freshman in 1983, Bias played on a team that was loaded with talent. He was the fourth or fifth best player that year on a team that included Ben Coleman, Herman Veal, Adrian Branch, Jeff Adkins, Jeff Baxter and Steve Rivers. (Coleman and Branch were second-team All-ACC; Bias finished third behind Mark Price and Johnny Dawkins in the ROY vote).

(3) As a sophomore, Maryland won the ACC and Coleman was the team's only All-ACC player. Bias had a great tournament and won the Case award as the MVP. But he had plenty of support, including Veal, Branch, Gatlin, Adkins.

(4) As a junior, Bias blossomed into the ACC POY, but surprisingly, Maryland was a very underachieving team, despite the presence of Branch (second-team All-ACC), Gatlin, Baxter and very talented young shot-blocker named Derrick Lewis.

(5) As a senior, Bias was again ACC POY and Maryland was again very mediocre. Branch was gone, but Gatlin and Derrick Lewis were back, along with a young big man named Tony Massenburg who would play more than a decade in the NBA.

So Bias actually played with some talented guys. Lefty's teams ALWAYS had talent. If you don't remember the likes of Adrian Branch(4 years in the NBA), Ben Coleman (seven years in the NBA), Keith Gatlin, Derrick Lewis (first-team All-ACC in 1987) and Tony Massenburg (13 seasons in the NBA), I'd suggest that you are not qualified to make statements like "Len Bias was the greatest player of all time."

Just do a quick comparison between Bias and Thompson:

As a sophomore (the first year Thompson could play), Thompson was ACC player of the year and a consensus first-team All-America. Bias didn't even make second-team All-ACC. He averaged a solid 15.3 ppg and 4.5 rebounds -- Thompson averaged 24.7 points and 8.1 rebounds.

As a junior, both players were ACC POY. Bias made three major second-team All-America teams -- no first teams. Thompson made every first-team All-America and beat out Bill Walton as national player of the year by the AP and Helms Foundation. Bias upped his averages to 18.9 points a game and 6.8 rebounds. Thompson averaged 26.0 points and 7.9 reb. a game.

As a senior, Bias had a great season. He was ACC POY and a concensus first-team All-America. But he didn't win a single recognized NPOY award. Thompson won his third ACC POY, consensus first-team All-American for the third time. He also swept every national player of the year award.

In his best season, Bias averaged 23.2 points and 7.0 rebounds. As a senior, Thompson averaged 29.9 points (he was over 30 all year until he suffered an injury in the ACC Tournament) and 8.1 rebounds.

Thompson was a career 55.3 percent shooter ... Bias was a career 53.6. We don't have assist, turnover, blocked shot and steal totals for Thompson, but he was almost certainly superior to Bias in all of those categories (Bias, as a senior, had 33 assists in 32 games -- he was basically a black hole; he had just 14 blocks, so he wasn't a shotblocker; he had just 27 steals)

My point is that Bias wasn't quite as good in his best season as David was in his worst -- and Thompson had three legitimately great seasons to one for Bias.

The argument that Len Bias was the greatest player in ACC history is a lot like the argument that Michael Jordan was the greatest ... its based on fuzzy memories of a spectaular player. In Jordan's case, those memories were tainted by his NBA excellence -- he IS the greatest pro player the ACC has produced. In Bias' case, the memories are tainted by the tragedy of his untimely death. He might have become a great NBA player.

Bias was a great player. He just wasn't the greatest.

dukeENG2003
09-22-2007, 11:49 AM
Len Bias was a great player, but I don't see him as having revolutionized the game as Thompson did. Maybe its just the Duke blue glasses I see everything through, and my young age, but I'd have to put Laettner ahead of Bias as well. 48.5% career from 3pt range is still absolutely mind blowing, and to hold the record for NCAA tournament points scored shows consistent greatness when it counted the most.

He had a better supporting cast than either of Thompson or Bias, but short of missing a couple free throws against UNC his freshman year, and "tripping" on Timberlake against Kentucky, I can't remember a single thing he ever did wrong.

In addition, one poster mentioned the "character" portion of greatness, and his revitalization efforts in Durham go a long way with me as well.

dkbaseball
09-22-2007, 11:59 AM
As for the guy who called him rigid....quite frankly, you are nuts.

Could be. I didn't see him play that much. But as I recall him in my mind's eye, he had his limitations. I don't see him handling the ball, I don't see him passing it, and I don't really see him creating his own shot. (He could twist; it was the bending down parts of the game that challenged him. Some athletes just seem to have the need to stay in that regal, upright posture at all times.) But if you set up your offense to get him shots, and get him out on the break, you have a devastating offensive weapon. Though he had the physicality -- and more -- of a Rodman, apparently he wasn't too interested in playing defense.

Don't get me wrong -- he was an awesome talent. If you wanted to argue that he was one of the dozen or so best college players of all time, I wouldn't necessarily dispute it.

As to the character issue: I don't think we need to factor it in when it comes to drug use, because it factors itself in. It's the reason Thompson is not recalled as one of the all-time NBA greats. It's the reason Bias didn't have an NBA career.

Indoor66
09-22-2007, 01:17 PM
He had a better supporting cast than either of Thompson or Bias, but short of missing a couple free throws against UNC his freshman year, and "tripping" on Timberlake against Kentucky, I can't remember a single thing he ever did wrong.

I think the missed free throws were against Arizona.

jimsumner
09-22-2007, 02:08 PM
"but short of missing a couple free throws against UNC his freshman year, and "tripping" on Timberlake against Kentucky, I can't remember a single thing he ever did wrong."

You must have been napping in the first-half of the IU game in the '92 FF. :)

Laettner figures in the discussion for #2 behind DT, along with Sampson, Bias, Duncan, Ford, Jordan, and a number of other players but he wasn't infallible.

Speaking of Thompson. He was unanimous first-team All-ACC three times. Add that to the list of superlatives. One other player shares that distinction. While we're all sitting here, listening to the radio (ssshh, don't jinx it), watching TV and posting on DBR, can anyone tell me the name of the other player named unanimous first-team All-ACC three times?

Carlos
09-22-2007, 02:34 PM
Hey, man, can't you at least give us a hint to your trivia question.

jimsumner
09-22-2007, 02:56 PM
Carlos, buddy, where's the fun in hints?

Okay, I'll throw you one. The player is not one of those I mentioned as a candidate for second-place behind DT.

dkbaseball
09-22-2007, 02:58 PM
Art Heyman.

I regret to inform evryone that Tyler H. has a chance to become the third next year.

jimsumner
09-22-2007, 03:13 PM
Yep, Art Heyman. The stunner is that one voter did not vote Ralph Sampson first-team All-ACC in 1981, a season when he not only was ACC POY but was consensus national POY.

Speaking of TH. If he decides to hang around long enough, he should become the first player to be named first-team All-ACC four times. The other guys who were first-team All-ACC as freshman--Skip Wise, Kenny Anderson, Joe Smith, Antawn Jamison, Stephon Marbury--all bailed early for the pros.

Uncle Drew
09-22-2007, 04:46 PM
4decadedukie,
In a more-contemporary example, few would argue the Vick is an exceptional quarterback, but his alleged felonious activities certainly indicate a likely lack of integrity. Is Vick a "great" football player?
Integrity is HUGE in life to many people, icluding myself. However drug use and abuse affects every social status and every school has had players tied to the use of drugs. Laettner got busted for pot and JJ came under scrutiny for the same drug after his freshman season. JJ got a DWI, but few of us Duke fans think much less of him for his arrest. As for Mike Vick I would argue he is a LOUSY QB. He's a great athlete, but since the invention of the forward pass a QB's 1st job is to do just that.....pass. His acuracy as a passer has never been his strong suit.

Olympic Fan,
(1) Bias never played with a player named Chris Gatling. Maryland never had a player named Chris Gatling. There was a player of that name who played at Old Dominion from 1988-91. Could you mean Keith Gatlin, who was an excellent play-making guard in the Bias era (who long long held the ACC Tournament assist record)?

(2) As a freshman in 1983, Bias played on a team that was loaded with talent. He was the fourth or fifth best player that year on a team that included Ben Coleman, Herman Veal, Adrian Branch, Jeff Adkins, Jeff Baxter and Steve Rivers. (Coleman and Branch were second-team All-ACC; Bias finished third behind Mark Price and Johnny Dawkins in the ROY vote).

(3) As a sophomore, Maryland won the ACC and Coleman was the team's only All-ACC player. Bias had a great tournament and won the Case award as the MVP. But he had plenty of support, including Veal, Branch, Gatlin, Adkins.

All true, but if you had continued to read on in another post on this subject as well as one from The Train, we had already agreed on these points. Your comments come off a little holier than thou, but whatever. I agree with what you said and they are valid points.
ColemanSo Bias actually played with some talented guys. Lefty's teams ALWAYS had talent. If you don't remember the likes of Adrian Branch(4 years in the NBA), Ben (seven years in the NBA), Keith Gatlin, Derrick Lewis (first-team All-ACC in 1987) and Tony Massenburg (13 seasons in the NBA), I'd suggest that you are not qualified to make statements like "Len Bias was the greatest player of all time."
I'd suggest than no opinion other than your own matters and the fact you remember when JFK was shot makes you think anyones opinion who doesn't meaningless. I've been watching ACC basketball my entire life, and I've seen enough footage of past athletes before my time to make fair judgements. Truth be told as stated in the first post I hate terms like "greatest" in regard to any athlete in any sport in any era. Had Michael Jordan been with the tallent the Clippers had durring the 1990's he'd have zero titles and no talk of greatest. Muhammad Ali may have been best boxer ever in some peoples minds, but to become a 3 time champion he also had to lose the title twice. Tiger Woods uses equipment Palmer, Nicholas and Bobby Jones never had access to. Pete Samprass never played Bijorn Borg, Conners etc. Barry Sanders didn't have the line to run behind Emmitt Smith did, or the supporting cast at QB and wide reciever.
Finally your argument Thompson was the greatest ever is speculative despite all the stats you'd like to use. The biased sports writters voted Jordan the best ACC basketball player ever (because they could use his NBA career into accounting) and Laettner 2nd. I honestly believe IN MY OPINION if Bias had lived his ACC career would be looked at MUCH differently than it is now and that he would have had an awesome NBA career. The stigma of losing his life to drugs has tainted his perception, JUST LIKE it has tainted MANY peoples perception of David Thompson.

jimsumner
09-22-2007, 06:09 PM
Latta,

You're correct that all of these superlatives are subjective. But I think we would agree that some opinions are more informed than other opinions. And I do spend some time hanging out with the informed-opinion-crowd. And I can state with absolute certainty that the belief that David Thompson was the best player in ACC history is an opinion held by a very strong majority.

He really was that good.

Uncle Drew
09-22-2007, 07:37 PM
Latta,

You're correct that all of these superlatives are subjective. But I think we would agree that some opinions are more informed than other opinions. And I do spend some time hanging out with the informed-opinion-crowd. And I can state with absolute certainty that the belief that David Thompson was the best player in ACC history is an opinion held by a very strong majority.

He really was that good.

Jim, you may be and probably are correct. But you didn't come off like a pompus jackI'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. in how you said it and you actually read all the posts before you said anything. And I will be the first to say David Thompson revolutionized the game like no player except maybe Lew Alcindor. On a side note, I think DT's athletic ability caused the future generations to focus so much on athletic ability, fundamentals became secondary. And any team with a 7'?" center in the 1970's was already at a huge advantage with or without DT.

jimsumner
09-22-2007, 08:00 PM
Ironically, the dunk wasn't even legal when DT played. He did dunk once, as a senior, in a late-season blow-out and gladly took the T. DT's athleticsm was jaw-dropping. He could have been an Olympic track athlete and that's not hyperbole. He showed up for the track team as a freshman and started breaking school records right and left.

But it just wasn't hops. He was tremendously skilled, smart and super competitive. Best of all, he had that rare ability to blend with his teammates but still take over when the situation dictated.

I wonder if MJ didn't have more to do with the deification of the dunk. I suspect it was more gradual. We could add Connie Hawkins, Julius Erving and others to this list.

One more thing about Thompson. He was the first home-grown African American star in the Big Four and suburbs. Charlie Scott, Charlie Davis, Mike Maloy, even Maryland's Len Elmore were all from NYC and there was some coolness towards them. But Thompson was one of us. He was articulate but soft-spoken and self-effacing. He transcended rivalries. Duke fans, Wake Forest fans, even Carolina fans loved the guy.

He was pretty darn good in the pros too, at least before the dark side took over. It got real ugly for awhile. But he pulled himself back up and he deserves credit for that too.

Uncle Drew
09-22-2007, 08:29 PM
Ironically, the dunk wasn't even legal when DT played. He did dunk once, as a senior, in a late-season blow-out and gladly took the T. DT's athleticsm was jaw-dropping. He could have been an Olympic track athlete and that's not hyperbole. He showed up for the track team as a freshman and started breaking school records right and left.

But it just wasn't hops. He was tremendously skilled, smart and super competitive. Best of all, he had that rare ability to blend with his teammates but still take over when the situation dictated.

I wonder if MJ didn't have more to do with the deification of the dunk. I suspect it was more gradual. We could add Connie Hawkins, Julius Erving and others to this list.

One more thing about Thompson. He was the first home-grown African American star in the Big Four and suburbs. Charlie Scott, Charlie Davis, Mike Maloy, even Maryland's Len Elmore were all from NYC and there was some coolness towards them. But Thompson was one of us. He was articulate but soft-spoken and self-effacing. He transcended rivalries. Duke fans, Wake Forest fans, even Carolina fans loved the guy.

He was pretty darn good in the pros too, at least before the dark side took over. It got real ugly for awhile. But he pulled himself back up and he deserves credit for that too.


Jim, correct me if this is an old wives tale or I have my players mixed up. But I seem to recall a story that when DT told Dean Smith he wasn't going to UNC and going to NCSU in the Thompsons living room that Dean Smith actually cried? If I'm not mistaken DT was the first "homegrown" recruit he ever lost out on.

And some old timer can correct me on this one if I'm wrong, but didn't Duke get put on some kind of probation because a Duke fan / booster gave DT a sports jacket or was that some other player or a wives tale in itself?

dkbaseball
09-22-2007, 09:24 PM
On a side note, I think DT's athletic ability caused the future generations to focus so much on athletic ability, fundamentals became secondary.

I feel pretty safe in saying that John Wooden was mostly responsible for elevating the esteem for athleticism in the coaching profession. He always said that the first thing he looked for in a recruit was quickness, and the second was jumping ability. The benefits were probably never more dramatically illustrated than in the '64 final against Duke, when his small, quick team just smothered our much bigger one on defense. Ironic that the era of athleticism Wooden ushered in has been accompanied by a decline in fundamentals, as he never tires of noting at the McDonald's all-star game. He was such a stickler for fundamentals that he began every season by showing the players how to put on their socks.

Yes, Duke got put on probation for recruiting violations with Thompson, but I don't remember the particulars. All the harder to stomach given what a sorry job of recruiting we did. They gave Thompson to a black football player to show around, not knowing the kid was deeply disenchanted with Duke. I can remember seeing Thompson sitting in the Phi Kap c-room by himself watching TV, as his host had gone off and left him to amuse himself. Had no idea I was looking at the greatest player ever to play in the league.

jimsumner
09-22-2007, 09:34 PM
A local Duke alum gave DT a sportscoat for his interview with Duke admissions. Thompson came from a large, desperately poor family. No one from the Duke staff had an inkling of any of this and there's no reason to believe that there was any expectation of quid pro quo. Still, the NCAA viewed this as an illegal benefit and hit Duke with a one-year probation in 1973. That team went 12-14, so there was no practical effect but is still the only such blemish in the school's athletic history.

Smith did miss on Burleson the year before. I don't know about the Smith story re the crying.

BTW, how many people know that Bill Walton visited Duke, along with a high-school buddy Greg Lee? Lee actually was the more highly-touted of the two. I'm not sure Duke ever had much of a chance with either but it's still interesting to speculate. Duke was in Tom McMillen's final four, Durham's John Lucas spurned Duke and the rest of the Big Four and Mitch Kupchak was another close-but-no-cigar. Whatever else you say about Bucky Waters, he did aim high.

jimsumner
09-22-2007, 09:35 PM
RE: Dean Smith and local folks. He very much wanted Randy Denton.

captmojo
09-22-2007, 09:44 PM
I firmly believe if State had not been on probation in '73, they would have been beck to back national champs. Same team. Equally unstoppable David Thompson.

Uncle Drew
09-22-2007, 09:56 PM
A local Duke alum gave DT a sportscoat for his interview with Duke admissions. Thompson came from a large, desperately poor family. No one from the Duke staff had an inkling of any of this and there's no reason to believe that there was any expectation of quid pro quo. Still, the NCAA viewed this as an illegal benefit and hit Duke with a one-year probation in 1973. That team went 12-14, so there was no practical effect but is still the only such blemish in the school's athletic history.

Smith did miss on Burleson the year before. I don't know about the Smith story re the crying.

BTW, how many people know that Bill Walton visited Duke, along with a high-school buddy Greg Lee? Lee actually was the more highly-touted of the two. I'm not sure Duke ever had much of a chance with either but it's still interesting to speculate. Duke was in Tom McMillen's final four, Durham's John Lucas spurned Duke and the rest of the Big Four and Mitch Kupchak was another close-but-no-cigar. Whatever else you say about Bucky Waters, he did aim high.


Yeah interesting to speculate, what could have been with Bill Walton and others. Kobe Bryant has said if he had gone to college it would have been Duke. Add him to that 99 squad that lost to UCONN in the championship game and talk about possibilities. And I agree with another poster, had NCSU not been on probation they would have repeated as champs. Then again if Thompson were allowed to play as a freshman they might have had 3 titles. Who knows how good UNC could have been if they had gotten Shavlik Randolph!

Julio
09-23-2007, 12:04 AM
..would it be Ralph Sampson?

TheTrain
09-23-2007, 12:14 AM
As for the poster who was making the claim that Maryland had better supporting talent around Bias than State around Thompson....you have no idea what you are talking about...sorry but you just don't

State with Monty Towe, Tommy Burleson, Phil Spence, Tim Stoddard and Mo Rivers was better than anything Maryland had from 1983-1986...that's not to say Maryland was talentless, but on the college level State had far more firepower

Veal, while a defensive stopper, had limited offensive skills...in fact, Mark Fothergill was brought in to provide offense in lieu of Veal when the Terps were trailing
Massenburg did not even blossom until his junior year
Derrick Lewis similarly became much more of a force in the latter part of his career as he had Eric Boateng/Casey Sanders-esque offensive skills early on

Look it is fair game to say Thompson was the best ever...and I am well aware that most feel that way....he transformed the college game and he led a team to a national title...that said, given the offensive prowess of players like Towe, Burleson, Rivers and Spence around him, he was less susceptable to double and triple teams than Bias. Bias would routinely throw up 20+ with 2-3 guys in his face. The opposition knew that Jeff Baxter and Speedy Jones were not going to score enough to beat you.

JasonEvans
09-23-2007, 07:22 AM
BTW, how many people know that Bill Walton visited Duke, along with a high-school buddy Greg Lee? Lee actually was the more highly-touted of the two. I'm not sure Duke ever had much of a chance with either but it's still interesting to speculate. Duke was in Tom McMillen's final four, Durham's John Lucas spurned Duke and the rest of the Big Four and Mitch Kupchak was another close-but-no-cigar. Whatever else you say about Bucky Waters, he did aim high.

I did not know Duke was really in it for Tom McMillen. The story of his recruitment is one of the stranger ones of the pre-internet-recruiting-hype days. In fact, I used "the google" on "the internets" to find this retelling (http://www.tarheeldaily.com/article.html?aid=1363) of it. Enjoy.

--Jason "I feel like I have heard that Lefty himself wrote the fake letter from the fake UNC alum, knowing that McMillen's parents were waay too honest to accept such an offer" Evans

greybeard
09-24-2007, 12:24 PM
My opinion, the greatest college player of the modern era was the guy his coach simply refers to until this day as "Lewis." There is no next.

Thompson had an absolutely loaded cast around him that allowed him to focus on doing one thing, scoring the ball. There were other options to take the heat.

What made State the best, if they were during his era (Sorry, Maryland was), was their ability to make key stops. There we are talking th big guy back, Monte going crazy on the ball, but the real nasties that made those stops were number 10 (sorry I don't remember his name but he could stop a train) and Stoddwhatever.

I do not think Thompson made guys who played with him better, except by drawing so much attention. The character of that team was in the two guards, who were undervalued (not Monte so much, but the other guy, Rivers I think his name was) and the power foreward and then the first foreward off the bench.

Len was great but he too helped no one he played with play better. He was not the best that Maryland has put out, not by a long shot, imo. The two guys who played the game terrifically, entertained everyone, and made everyone better were the overlapping guards, JL, of course, and my personal favorite, Brad Davis. I loved, I mean loved, the way that kid played the game. I especially loved the way he ran the break, often making quarter length of the floor passes by scooping it off the dribble and shuffling it underhand in either direction to a guy out in front.

Elmor has to be the best that they ever had, or Mac, but that guy who made the Olympic team, the small foreward, he was a much better college player than Len too.

I know you guys are gonna laugh, but I actually think that the best all around player, impact player, that Maryland had since the late 60s was Jim O'Brien. If the pro game had a shorter season, he would have been a great pro too. He was Larry Bird before there was one (whatever that means), only he was too thin. The guy was, in my opinion, a brilliant, creative, and extremely effective player who could beat you in many, many ways and chose well among them as circumstances dictated. He truly played with complete dreck most of his time at Maryland until he was joined by that black guard named White who was not as good as everyone said, imo.

Yeap, my nomination for Maryland's very best player is a guy who was best known as Bozo.
Some might say that is fitting.

grey "I can't help it it is just the way my mind works" beard ;)

JasonEvans
09-24-2007, 12:41 PM
My opinion, the greatest college player of the modern era was the guy his coach simply refers to until this day as "Lewis." There is no next.


You mean he doesn't call him Ferdinand?

I think measuring stars from different eras is impossible. The shot clock, the 3-pointer, early entry, and other developments over the years have changed the game so much it is almost impossible to say who was the greatest.

That said, your nomination is a very strong one. Though it is worth pointing out that he was utterly dominated in The Game of the Century.

--Jason "as an aside, the guy we are talking about here is one of the best Celebrity Jeopardy players around" Evans

Carlos
09-24-2007, 12:51 PM
I did not know Duke was really in it for Tom McMillen. The story of his recruitment is one of the stranger ones of the pre-internet-recruiting-hype days. In fact, I used "the google" on "the internets" to find this retelling (http://www.tarheeldaily.com/article.html?aid=1363) of it. Enjoy.

--Jason "I feel like I have heard that Lefty himself wrote the fake letter from the fake UNC alum, knowing that McMillen's parents were waay too honest to accept such an offer" Evans

Heck, Jason, that one comes in a distant second place for the stories of McMillen's recruitment.

The much better one is that the Tar Heel radio announcer at that time was Bill Currie, also known as "the mouth of the south." But Currie also had another pseudonym; Dick Hertz. It seems that Currie, in addition to his work for the Heels also did a little writing on the side and had published several pornographic novels. Lefty got one of the novels and mailed it off to Mrs. McMillen with a note inside asking her if she really wanted her son to spend 4 years associating with someone like that.

greybeard
09-24-2007, 01:13 PM
You mean he doesn't call him Ferdinand?

I think measuring stars from different eras is impossible. The shot clock, the 3-pointer, early entry, and other developments over the years have changed the game so much it is almost impossible to say who was the greatest.

That said, your nomination is a very strong one. Though it is worth pointing out that he was utterly dominated in The Game of the Century.

--Jason "as an aside, the guy we are talking about here is one of the best Celebrity Jeopardy players around" Evans

Playing with one eye, at a place where depth perception was an issue to begin with. But, hey, the other guy was not exactly swiss chEese either.

grey "was that the beginning of pre-game hype as we know it or what" beard

JasonEvans
09-24-2007, 01:28 PM
The other guy was not exactly swiss chEese either.

Best
Typo
Ever!!!

-Jason

jimsumner
09-24-2007, 01:32 PM
Hey Jason,

Wanna tell us how that Game of the Century rematch turned out?

Brad Davis and Jim O'Brien were nice players and all but neither was in the same universe as Bias. Speaking of short-list top Terps add Albert King to the list. And if we're going for just favorite players, Buck Williams can play on my team any day.

For the record, the key players on the '74 State team were

Tommy Burleson
DT
Tim Stoddard
Moe Rivers
Monte Towe
Phil Spence

And yes, I think David Thompson made his teammates better.

77devil
09-24-2007, 01:36 PM
I know you guys are gonna laugh, but I actually think that the best all around player, impact player, that Maryland had since the late 60s was Jim O'Brien.

You are right. I am rolling on the floor. The biggest impact I ever saw from Bozo was when he ran into a scorer's table.

greybeard
09-24-2007, 02:36 PM
You are right. I am rolling on the floor. The biggest impact I ever saw from Bozo was when he ran into a scorer's table.

Played for the Nets, you know, and was damned good. Was their star until a guy named Rick, and then a kid with a big fro, turned up.

Like I said, Maryland had nothing then, but Jim, and nobody in the league could come close to stopping him. Of course, there was little reason to try. But, if I remember right, the Lefthander did manage to eek out a few wins, which was way more than they should have had.

I have heard that Macman was sufficiently impressed with Jim and what he could do that he actually was willing to be "coached" by Lefty. Come on, you don't believe all that stuff about Lefty sweet-talkin kid's Mamas. You ever hear the guy talk? Nope, Bozo actually is responsible for almost making Maryland the UCLA of the West. (only kiddin here folks).

grey "you fast guys who can jump, always remember that when guarding someone like Bozo you can only go as fast as HE choses and if you TRY to out quick or jump him when HE choses you are Likely to LOOSE, which if you ever really watched the man they called Bozo would be old NEWS" beard; or

grey "oh how I long for the day when the great game was a sport in which athleticism was only a part and in which true sportsmen ruled" beard

TheTrain
09-24-2007, 02:39 PM
Anyone arguing that Jim O'Brien was in the same league with Bias needs to find a different sport to analyze...seriously...that simply does not pass the proverbial giggle test you learn in law school......almost the Duke equivalent of arguing whether Chris Carrawell (a good player) was better than Christian Laettner (an all-time great).

TheTrain
09-24-2007, 02:43 PM
Jim O'Brien played in 11 games for the Nets and then 47 games for the Memphis Sounds before leaving the pro ranks....far from a star

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/obrieji02.html

TheTrain
09-24-2007, 03:06 PM
In fact, Bob Ryan of the Boston Globe wrote a great story in 2003 on this. Coach K had an interesting take

http://www.boston.com/sports/articles/2003/11/18/what_might_have_been/

greybeard
09-24-2007, 03:16 PM
Jim O'Brien played in 11 games for the Nets and then 47 games for the Memphis Sounds before leaving the pro ranks....far from a star

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/obrieji02.html

Look, far from me to talk about the dead, but, hey, when I'm besmirched. You ever seen Len put the ball on the ground and bounce it more than twice. I mean ever, as in E*V*E*R. You ever see him give it up and get it back in a better position. You ever see him give it up to one of the littles (not size wise) on his team for something easy. You ever see him get what they call an assist?

How many astounding athletes out of the ACC bombed as number 1s, even number 1 number 1s. The old Bullets did great with that guy from Wake. How did Forte do. What about Washburn. What about the big from Maryland who is kicking around the league, the real athlete.

Len was, as one poster properly put it, completely wooden in his game. Sorry, one can be wooden and still have the ability to do a 360, or have a feathery touch on a jump shot.

Len was also extremely, as in very, very, very, PREDICTABLE in his movements. It didn't matter in college because he'd just jump over people. And, he did have those wide shoulders that he did use on a turnaround to create separation before elevating.

But, ole Len was NOT A SMALL FOREWARD. No way. And, as a Big forward he was SMALL and like I said, amazingly predictable. He might just have found people waiting up there when he elevated and have had as stellar a pro career as King Albert. Sadly, we'll never know. But, as the answer to Larry, they already had him in Len's high school buddy. Now, there was a guy who could really, really, really play the game.

Personally, I really liked watchin Lenny; thought Gatlin never, ever lived up to the hype; thought Adrian showed elements of brilliance before Len, when he was the Maryland go to guy playin in the middle in a take off on Dean's old system without so much stall in it.

So, Jim did not have the body for the pros. He did have the game, imo.

throatybeard
09-24-2007, 03:19 PM
I think measuring stars from different eras is impossible. The shot clock, the 3-pointer, early entry, and other developments over the years have changed the game so much it is almost impossible to say who was the greatest.


None of you know what you're talking about. Secretariat was way better than Mike Tyson.

TheTrain
09-24-2007, 03:28 PM
The two definitive quotes on the matter:

"This is my 24th year at Duke," says coach Mike Krzyzewski, "and in that time there have been two opposing players who have really stood out: Michael Jordan and Len Bias. Len was an amazing athlete with great competitiveness. My feeling is that he would have been one of the top players in the NBA. He created things. People associate the term `playmaking' with point guards. But I consider a playmaker as someone who can do things others can't, the way Jordan did. Bias was like that. He could invent ways to score, and there was nothing you could do about it. No matter how you defended him, he could make a play."

Red Auerbach admits he only had eyes for Bias. "Oh, yeah, I definitely wanted him," Auerbach says. "Absolutely. Because he was a ballplayer. He could handle the ball, he could shoot it, and he was just what we needed."


http://www.boston.com/sports/articles/2003/11/18/what_might_have_been/

greybeard
09-24-2007, 04:12 PM
The two definitive quotes on the matter:

"This is my 24th year at Duke," says coach Mike Krzyzewski, "and in that time there have been two opposing players who have really stood out: Michael Jordan and Len Bias. Len was an amazing athlete with great competitiveness. My feeling is that he would have been one of the top players in the NBA. He created things. People associate the term `playmaking' with point guards. But I consider a playmaker as someone who can do things others can't, the way Jordan did. Bias was like that. He could invent ways to score, and there was nothing you could do about it. No matter how you defended him, he could make a play."

Red Auerbach admits he only had eyes for Bias. "Oh, yeah, I definitely wanted him," Auerbach says. "Absolutely. Because he was a ballplayer. He could handle the ball, he could shoot it, and he was just what we needed."


http://www.boston.com/sports/articles/2003/11/18/what_might_have_been/

Coach K's comment, I'd need to know the context. Without the context, it is impossible to respond. I will say, however, that that is one ridiculously short, and I mean ridiculously very literally, list, unless the context explains it.

As for Red, they drafted the guy. I do not know if Red was actually running things then or not, but they drafted him. In my opinion, the outside guy on that team for the future was Lewis, not Len. There were any number of young forewards in the league at that time that I see, saw, as being way more complete than Len.

I am not sure that Red was ever known as a particularly great drafter. He made the trade for Russell, which for all we know had more to do with less than nobel motivations by the powers in St. Louis then Red's accumin, which was pretty darn good. Red was famous for trading for established players--the chief, McHale, Nauls, the other crew cut forward (southerner), white (I think that that was a trade), Tiny, etc. The only other great pick was Larry, which even I could have made.

Nope. I watched the guy play. He was dazzling, but he could not uplift a team, and showed me less feel for the game than many, many other players.

This ain't Roman times, "the good that men do" is not interred with their bones. Sometimes, people speak well of them. I loved watchin the guy; I do not think he was anywhere near the best of the best. If K thought that this guy was even half the player that Worthy was, we were not watchin the same players. Now, if he said what he said in the context of saying something about how much we all lost, which is what I suspect, good for K.

TheTrain
09-24-2007, 04:24 PM
Red Auerbach was not a good drafter??? Maybe insofar as the Celtics for many years had 1st round picks at the bottom of the 1st round

First of all...McHale was the 3rd pick in the 1980 draft by the Celtics...Boston acquired the pick from Golden State in the Robert Parrish deal

He drafted Larry Bird, Dave Cowens, JoJo White, Paul Westphal, Danny Ainge, Cedric Maxwell among others during his tenure as GM

As for K's comment, simply read the article that I linked.....there is no taking it out of context because I can provide you with a different article written three years later where he told the AP the same thing...the best two opponents that he has coached against were Michael Jordan and Len Bias.

You are entitled to your opinion, but quite candidly it is not shared by most that follow the game

jimsumner
09-24-2007, 04:31 PM
Well. The range on Bias is he was either better than David Thompson or not as good as Jim O'Brien. Hmm. You've probably figured out that I'm a lot closer to the first opinion than the second.

Let's don't diss Lefty. He has an many Duke degrees as I do.

Red? He snookered the Hawks on Russell. He snookered the league on Larry Bird. Joe Barry Carroll for Robert Parish was a great trade and Bailey Howell brought them some titles. But he did draft Sam Jones, K.C. Jones, Kevin McHale (3rd pick in '80), John Havlicek, Dave Cowens, Jo Jo White, Paul Westphal, Cedric Maxwell, and Reggie Lewis among others, so his track record is pretty good. I'm pretty sure that if he had left Bias on the board at #2, he wouldn't have lasted too much longer.

Red did make one laughably inept pick. In 1963 he used the 8th pick on Colorado State's Bill Green, a rugged forward. Afterwards, they made an interesting discovery. Green was terrified of flying. Would not get on an airplane. A not uncommon phobia but pretty much a career killer for an NBA player.

throatybeard
09-24-2007, 05:08 PM
Yep, Art Heyman. The stunner is that one voter did not vote Ralph Sampson first-team All-ACC in 1981, a season when he not only was ACC POY but was consensus national POY.

Speaking of TH. If he decides to hang around long enough, he should become the first player to be named first-team All-ACC four times. The other guys who were first-team All-ACC as freshman--Skip Wise, Kenny Anderson, Joe Smith, Antawn Jamison, Stephon Marbury--all bailed early for the pros.

Jascha Silberstein, the cellist, once quipped "every time somebody dies, they call him the last of the Romantics."

Every time someone really good stays in school four years, they call him the last of the great 4-year players. It's been going on at least since Grant Hill.

greybeard
09-24-2007, 05:14 PM
Well. The range on Bias is he was either better than David Thompson or not as good as Jim O'Brien. Hmm. You've probably figured out that I'm a lot closer to the first opinion than the second.

Let's don't diss Lefty. He has an many Duke degrees as I do.

Red? He snookered the Hawks on Russell. He snookered the league on Larry Bird. Joe Barry Carroll for Robert Parish was a great trade and Bailey Howell brought them some titles. But he did draft Sam Jones, K.C. Jones, Kevin McHale (3rd pick in '80), John Havlicek, Dave Cowens, Jo Jo White, Paul Westphal, Cedric Maxwell, and Reggie Lewis among others, so his track record is pretty good. I'm pretty sure that if he had left Bias on the board at #2, he wouldn't have lasted too much longer.

Red did make one laughably inept pick. In 1963 he used the 8th pick on Colorado State's Bill Green, a rugged forward. Afterwards, they made an interesting discovery. Green was terrified of flying. Would not get on an airplane. A not uncommon phobia but pretty much a career killer for an NBA player.

Okay, maybe Red could draft players.

As for Red's assessment that Len could handle the ball, the best I can say is that Len had great hands and a feathery touch; to me, as I said, he was not particularly deft at the dribble, pass, or moving the ball around except while dunking. IMO, you have to be great at that to be a great small foreward in the pros.

As for K, I read the article. As I suspected, K was being asked to comment 20 years after the fact about Len. So were the others. Not difficult to be generous in that context.

For my money, which there regrettably ain't a lot of, in addition to the aforementioned James Worthy, and just talking Carolina here, I take Cunningham, BJones, Antoine, Sheed, the Nets guy, and the Dallas guy (did I tell you I don't remember too good anymore) over Len.

Davis played what, nine years in the league, and had Dallas playin for real at the end of his run. Davis ran the break better than any white guy I ever saw, cousey included. He captured my imagination, which to me is what I value most in watching sports. So did O'Brien.

There have been a number of Dukies during the K era who have done that too. Put JWill and Hill out there by their ownselves. The rest are too many to mention. But I will mention one.

That 6'3" center from the early years. Made terrific receptions in terrific spots with the timing of the gods, and just plain killed people afterwards, no matter their size or pedigrees. Scored the ball in uncanny ways and passed it beautifully. Just danced, in a bulldog body, around and under and then, when he glued them to the ground, over em too.

Compare Lenny. He too made terrific catches in terrific places with impeccable timing. He finished too, maybe a few times with going under the rim, but usually just elevating. Maybe he had more in him, but he didn't show me half the stuff that the 6'3" Dukie did, and never anything with the pass.

At least, that is how I remember it. Maybe it's because the team his Jr and Sr years was such a disappointment to those of us in DC, for whom Maryland back then was the only show in town.

BTW, JS, no way I besmeerch the Lefthander, even if he had had one less Duke degree than you. I think you will agree that Lefty was cut of a different cloth than others, in the same fashion as Al McGuire.

Both men breathed free, and treated their players like men, men who had the world by the short ones because they played a game that people would pay to watch.

To them it was quite a racket. If history has taught us anything, both had it exactly right.

jimsumner
09-24-2007, 05:18 PM
Okay, the Silberstein reference is worth some kudos. But nobody is saying Tyler is the last of the great four-year players. Just that none of the other players who made first-team All-ACC as freshmen stayed around long enough the accomplish that feat four times. It was a factual statement not an opinion.

jimsumner
09-24-2007, 05:21 PM
" Davis ran the break better than any white guy I ever saw, cousey included. "


This just keeps getting weirder and weirder. BTW, check out Steve Nash when you get a chance.

TheTrain
09-24-2007, 05:34 PM
I don't even think the most ardent (or drunk) Maryland fan (and believe me, I know more than my fair share) would state that Brad Davis ran the fast break better than Bob Cousy......I mean that is just laughable

throatybeard
09-24-2007, 05:37 PM
Okay, the Silberstein reference is worth some kudos. But nobody is saying Tyler is the last of the great four-year players. Just that none of the other players who made first-team All-ACC as freshmen stayed around long enough the accomplish that feat four times. It was a factual statement not an opinion.

That was just a general observation. I wasn't saying you said TH was great. But wait for the TV announcers in 2009.

throatybeard
09-24-2007, 05:38 PM
" Davis ran the break better than any white guy I ever saw, cousey included. "


This just keeps getting weirder and weirder. BTW, check out Steve Nash when you get a chance.

Don't you see, Jim, running the break obviously has to do with race. :eek:

greybeard
09-24-2007, 06:43 PM
I don't even think the most ardent (or drunk) Maryland fan (and believe me, I know more than my fair share) would state that Brad Davis ran the fast break better than Bob Cousy......I mean that is just laughable

Cousey was of oh so different an era, and his signature passes would be laughable today. Brad Davis scooping the ball one handed off the dribble and then launching it underhand has never been replicated. It would still be as awesome today as it was then, and I loved it.

They played the kid at the point as a soph when they had Lucas, or am I remembering wrong. A sophomore (or was he a freshman) takin the ball out of John freakin Lucas's hand and you are saying he was not primo special? And, if he wasn't primo special specifically at running the break, then how was he primo special, in your opinion Mr. Train? Laugh your way out of that one.

Me. I loved Cousey. Grew up watching him. But, hey, when you have Bill Russell blocking shots and rebounding, Sam and Hondo running, with Baily (or Nellie or Heinsohn or Nauls) on the secondary break, how tough do you think it was to distribute? And, did they really fall off when KC took over, or Siegfried for that matter.

Anyway, take Magic out of the mix (without peer), I liked watching this kid Davis run the break as much as anybody. Yeah, I know that Kidd is terrfic, but I liked watching Brad even more. That pass of his just knocked me out.

Anyway, we're just talkin ball in what in my neighborhood is still the freakin summer. You have guys talkin about how great a guy who never actually played a single game in the pros would have been. Sue me, I'm in the bag for Davis' underhand scoop pass, and I'm stickin too it.

Laugh all you want, big fella, but tell me a single other style of "pass" (Magic aside, now) that was any more effective and entertaining. That's what I thought, da Train was not really laughing, just whistlin in the wind. ;)

dkbaseball
09-24-2007, 06:54 PM
I'm going to agree with Greybeard that I've never seen a better passer than Davis. I can recall being particularly amazed when he came to Maryland, because, IIRC, he played center in high school. He wasn't supposed to start as a freshman -- they had Lucas and Howard as entrenched starting guards -- but he just couldn't be kept off the floor. Nobody was picking that Maryland team to win the ACC in Thompson's senior season. One of the more fun teams to watch the league has ever seen.

jimsumner
09-24-2007, 07:03 PM
Okay, I'm not laughing at anybody. Brad Davis was a pretty good college point guard. He did make second-team All-ACC twice and had a nice NBA career. But better than Cousy? That's just off the charts. The best season BD ever had in the NBA, he averaged 7.2 apg and that's darn good. But Cousy averaged better than that for his entire 13-year career, with a peak of 9.5 and that's one of the reasons Cousy is a Hall-of-Famer. Sure he had good teammates but I'm pretty sure he helped make them better.

Brad Davis never made first-team All-ACC. He never made a major All-America team. He never played in an NBA All-Star game. If we were anywhere near as good as you remember, don't you think somebody else would have noticed?

greybeard
09-24-2007, 07:13 PM
Okay, I'm not laughing at anybody. Brad Davis was a pretty good college point guard. He did make second-team All-ACC twice and had a nice NBA career. But better than Cousy? That's just off the charts. The best season BD ever had in the NBA, he averaged 7.2 apg and that's darn good. But Cousy averaged better than that for his entire 13-year career, with a peak of 9.5 and that's one of the reasons Cousy is a Hall-of-Famer. Sure he had good teammates but I'm pretty sure he helped make them better.

Brad Davis never made first-team All-ACC. He never made a major All-America team. He never played in an NBA All-Star game. If we were anywhere near as good as you remember, don't you think somebody else would have noticed?

Jimsummer, you seem to be a cool guy and you certainly know your basketball. How many different ways can I say it, I'm in the bag for Brad Davis, he captured my imagination, especially with that underhanded pass of his.

I did not say that he was better than Cousey. I said that he ran the break better. In context, you can not have missed that what I was really saying is that I found Brad much more entertaining/effective while running the break than Cousey, which is pretty freakin entertaining/effective because I thought that Cousey was pretty freakin entertaining/effective, just like the rest of the basketball world.

Now, my guy just didn't last nine years in the league, people liked watching him, and his team was effective. It was his team, wasn't it? And, he did it despite that ridiculous shot of his. When he was at Maryland, you didn't love his game? Did you watch him play? If you watched him play, and didn't drool over the way he passed the ball, and got to the basket with it, then what can I say. I DID. That's what Ihave been saying, I DID.

You look to others to validate what you have to say regarding insights into the great game. If that works for you, fine. It really is a fine way to go. Got nothin at all against it.

But, like the Great Russian put it, "Two plus two equals four even without me. I much prefer two plus two equals five." See the Notes. If you have to ask which notes, someone else tell him, I'm done with this guy for now.

jimsumner
09-24-2007, 07:35 PM
Yes, I saw Brad Davis play.

The people who are validating my opinion is every single person who voted for an All-ACC team, an All-America team, and an NBA-All-Star and NBA All-League team in the appropriate time period. This would be people who watch and write about basketball for a living, people who saw Davis and his peers in person many, many times. And in the aggregate not one of these groups of people supports your view of Brad Davis. Dismiss them if you will but it's a body of opinion that carries considerable weight.

BTW, if you really think I can't make up my own mind in matters of these sorts, you don't know me very well. If anything, I err on the side of over-opinionated.

Yes, I get that you have--pardon me, Alan Greenspan--an irrational exuberance for Davis but it's simply not a view that can be supported by any objective data and no amount of pleading on your part is likely to change many minds.

We all enjoy talking about this sort of thing and it's fun, especially in the off-season. I'm sure you understand that your opinion is pretty far from the mainstream.


BTW, it's Cousy.

greybeard
09-24-2007, 07:56 PM
Yes, I saw Brad Davis play.

The people who are validating my opinion is every single person who voted for an All-ACC team, an All-America team, and an NBA-All-Star and NBA All-League team in the appropriate time period. This would be people who watch and write about basketball for a living, people who saw Davis and his peers in person many, many times. And in the aggregate not one of these groups of people supports your view of Brad Davis. Dismiss them if you will but it's a body of opinion that carries considerable weight.

BTW, if you really think I can't make up my own mind in matters of these sorts, you don't know me very well. If anything, I err on the side of over-opinionated.

Yes, I get that you have--pardon me, Alan Greenspan--an irrational exuberance for Davis but it's simply not a view that can be supported by any objective data and no amount of pleading on your part is likely to change many minds.

We all enjoy talking about this sort of thing and it's fun, especially in the off-season. I'm sure you understand that your opinion is pretty far from the mainstream.


BTW, it's Cousy.

So far, you haven't mentioned a single other guy who delivered the ball via a pass in anything approaching a unique style that was even remotely as effective as Davis' scoop pass.

Nor, despite your obvious penchant for All whatever teams, have you mentioned another guard who oh so couldn't shoot the ball who made it in the league for nine years by running the break.

So, all the support you have garnered for your view amounts to zero, zippo. You continually change the issue,l and pretend that making some all everything team or not proves that the masses, and "experts", agree with you about Davis.

BTW, good old Bobby from Boston is no expert about anything. He is a gabber, a talking head, who loves, adores his own voice, and the fact that he worked for peanuts writing about sports and some guy from Cornell and then my boy T made a media star out of him. I'd put my knowledge and appreciation of the game up against such experts anyday of the week, especially old Bobby boy, who, just so we are clear, has expressed no view about my take on Davis, correct?

So, how many All ACC guys, All Americas don't do squadoosh in the pros? I guess we can discount those votes as an indication of whether someone has a talent that actually counts for something, other than he went to a big time school with a big time pr machine, who guys like you are oh so taken with.

Now, Ryan plus nothing ain't exactly nothing, but it does not constitute the weight of evidence that you would make it. Ryan, he's your basketball expert? Please.

I am still waiting for your assessment of why Davis made the impact he did when he arrived at Maryland (he did push Lucas to the wing rather than the other way around), and then in the pros if it wasn't for how he ran the break. If you have more than a one word answer to that, I'm all ears.

Spelling, really, after all that, you are talkin freakin spellin? Please tell me you got more to bring than Ryan, some irrelevant votes for all everything teams that do not begin to address my point about Davis' performance on the break, and a freakin spelling test. School's out, Jimmy, you do know that don't you. Come on, cut all the ad hominims, kiddo, it's just talkin ball, right? :)

jimsumner
09-24-2007, 08:41 PM
If suggesting that correctly spelling Bob Cousy's name is an ad hominem attack, then I suppose I'm guilty.

We started from Brad Davis runs the fast break better than anyone in the history of basketball to didn't he have a distinct way of passing?

Lucas, Davis, and Howard? Simple. Lefty wanted to play a three-guard lineup and Lucas was better suited to play the 3 than the other two. So he moved to the 3. Davis no more ran Lucas out of the point guard spot than Sean Dockery ran J.J. Redick into the frontcourt.

Bobby from Boston? Ryan? I'm sorry but I have no earthly idea what you're talking about. Or who you're talking about.

We all know what they say about opinions. My opinion is that you are entitled to yours but it doesn't come close to reflecting reality. My opinion is that my opinion is supported by both objective evidence and the overwhelming consensus of a large body of folks who in fact most likely do know more about basketball than you. Sorry but that's my opinion.

BTW, Brad Davis played 15 seasons in the NBA. He made 51.0% of his field goal attempts and 82.8% of his foul shots over the course of that career. But don't let my penchant for facts and validation from outside agents override your opinion that he played nine seasons and couldn't shoot.

throatybeard
09-24-2007, 08:51 PM
And Greybeard hijacks another thread. Yippee.

dkbaseball
09-24-2007, 09:09 PM
Lucas, Davis, and Howard? Simple. Lefty wanted to play a three-guard lineup and Lucas was better suited to play the 3 than the other two. So he moved to the 3. Davis no more ran Lucas out of the point guard spot than Sean Dockery ran J.J. Redick into the frontcourt.


I wouldn't say that Davis ran Lucas out of the point guard spot, since Lucas is probably about as good a point guard as has played in the league. But my recollection is that it was a situation where Davis forced his way into the lineup with great play, not that Lefty cooked up a new scheme. Lefty had three quite competent big men in Tom Roy, Owen Brown and Steve Shepherd, and the starting lineup was set before practice ever started, with Davis coming off the bench. It's possible Shepherd was hurt for a while, which gave Davis an opportunity. But I was working with a lot of Terp fans at the time, and I can recall that Davis' play was regarded as an absolute revelation from day one.

My extravagant praise for Davis extends only to his passing. I don't rank him among the immortals, but he was one of my personal favorites.

BTW, watching that Maryland team play John Wooden's last UCLA team ranks as my greatest thrill watching sports. Sacrilege perhaps, on a Duke board, but Wooden's work was transcendent.

greybeard
09-24-2007, 09:53 PM
And Greybeard hijacks another thread. Yippee.

Should you wish to be accurate, you will see that my original post and several thereafter were directly on the point raised, which was whether Len Bias was all that even in Maryland basketball history, much less the ACC, much less a potential difference maker on an aged and soon to be birdless pro team.

Since then, I have been responding to sir James' ad hominim attacks, calling be drunk or stupid or odd. If I am wrong about this, please point out how.

Assuming that such attacks are appropriate, you can clarify that too, then surely it is appropriate that I respond. Even when I clarified that I was simply expressing my personal opinion, and praised sir James for his basketball IQ and personal style, the attacks continued.

I hijacked what and how? As a moderator on the board, surely you can answer. I look forward to your on-the-board clarification as to where you think I did wrong here. With all due respect, I am at a loss.

TheTrain
09-24-2007, 11:46 PM
Mr. Sumner's recollection is indeed correct. That said, Owen Brown's last season at Maryland was 1974-75. Larry Gibson, Larry Boston and Steve Sheppard were the big men in 1976 with Tom Roy coming off the bench. Gibson was hurt for a while in 1976.

I can't imagine what comparison will come next. Comical

greybeard
09-25-2007, 12:01 AM
Mr. Sumner's recollection is indeed correct. That said, Owen Brown's last season at Maryland was 1974-75. Larry Gibson, Larry Boston and Steve Sheppard were the big men in 1976 with Tom Roy coming off the bench. Gibson was hurt for a while in 1976.

I can't imagine what comparison will come next. Comical

Tom Roy was at least as good an offensive center as Duke has had in the last 5 years--that is, Shelden and McRob. The guy had moves inside, which neither Shelden nor McRob could even imagine. Of course, Roy also was a complete flake and I have to believe liked his agricultural and chemical products as much as the far more famed center of his era.

Yeah, I know, comical. So what are you choo choo, some kind of expert? :eek:

dkbaseball
09-25-2007, 12:36 AM
Mr. Sumner's recollection is indeed correct. That said, Owen Brown's last season at Maryland was 1974-75. Larry Gibson, Larry Boston and Steve Sheppard were the big men in 1976 with Tom Roy coming off the bench. Gibson was hurt for a while in 1976.

Unless Tom Roy redshirted, he graduated in 1975, because he started school there in '71.

TheTrain
09-25-2007, 12:44 AM
I had to double check it DKBaseball, but you are indeed correct, Roy graduated in 1975. Interestingly enough, Roy never started a game for Maryland...not once.

http://www.sportsstats.com/ACC/individual.stats/player_stats/player1694.txt

The one thing I always remember about Roy was that he was Maryland's version of Dan Meagher...an absolute hatchet man....one mean hombre

dkbaseball
09-25-2007, 12:58 AM
I had to double check it DKBaseball, but you are indeed correct, Roy graduated in 1975. Interestingly enough, Roy never started a game for Maryland...not once.

http://www.sportsstats.com/ACC/individual.stats/player_stats/player1694.txt

The one thing I always remember about Roy was that he was Maryland's version of Dan Meagher...an absolute hatchet man....one mean hombre

Boy, I wonder if that site is correct. I thought he started most of the time in both '74 and '75. Jim, anybody? My memory has gone way south if Tom Roy never started.

gw67
09-25-2007, 07:21 AM
I haven't visted the site for a few days and I'm amazed that the Bias thread is alive with many side discussions of players from Lefty's early years. My future wife got her undergraduate and graduate degrees from Maryland in the early 70's and we went to a bunch of games in the 72-76 period. My recollections are as follows:


Jim O'Brien was a nice player from Northern Virginia who, IMO, never reached his potential. He started in the frontcourt with McMillan and Elmore.
Brad Davis was an outstanding point guard who was part of a terrific ACC guard class (Ford and Wise). As I recall, most thought that Wise was the best of the three as a freshman. Davis played in the backcourt with Lucas and Howard as a freshman and was an exceptional passer.
Tom Roy was highly recruited from New York (?). He came off the bench as a soph, was a part-time starter as a junior (shared position with Owen Brown) on frontline with McMillan and Elmore, and started as a senior. He was a good rebounder who had some nice offensive moves.


Other than those personal recollections from a long time ago, I pretty much agree with jimsumner, Olympic and other posters whose memory is probably better than mine.

gw67

jimsumner
09-25-2007, 09:05 AM
The 1975 Maryland team was one of the more interesting teams around for several reasons. It had six players average double figures in points; John Lucas, 19.5; Owen Brown 14.9; Steve Sheppard 14.3; Mo Howard 13.4; Brad Davis 12.6; and Tom Roy 11.0. Chris Patton averaged 4.7. UNC duplicated that feat in 1989. They are the only ACC teams to ever have six guys score in double figures.

Roy averaged 11.1 rpg, second in the league to Tree Rollins. Roy and Brown were seniors. Brown and Patton both died of Marfan's Syndrom, the same genetic disorder that later killed volleyball star Flo Hyman.

This team was the first ACC team to benefit from new NCAA rules permitting two teams from a conference to advance to the NCAA Tournament. Maryland finished first in the ACC Regular season but lost in the ACC Tournament semifinals to NC State. State then lost in the title game to UNC. So the Heels got the automatic bid, Maryland got the at-large bid, while Thompson and company turned down an NIT bid and stayed home. State, btw, changed their mind about the NIT bid the next day, only to be informed that all the slots were filled.

Maryland made it to the Midwest Regional Final, where they lost to a very good Louisville team --Junior Bridgeman, Allan Murphy--96-82 in the finals. This was the 4th and last time Lefty made it to a regional final, only to lose. He never did make a Final Four.

Skip Wise? A cautionary tale a decade before Bias and Washburn. Star of a freshman class that included Phil Ford, Kenny Carr, Brad Davis, Rod Griffin, and Marc Iavaroni. In case you're wondering, Duke's freshman that year were Kenny Young, Rick Gomez, and walk-on Bruce Bell. Ouch.

Anyway. Wise was first-team All-ACC as a freshman; Kenny Anderson was the next ACC Player to do that, and that was in 1990. A stunning talent from Baltimore, Wise was quick, strong, skilled, street tough. 18.5 ppg. Left Clemson to play with the hometown Baltimore Claws of the ABA. Who? Exactly. The Claws folded without ever playing a game. Left adrift, Wise became ensnared with drugs, served some time in prison, and disappeared from the basketball world. I have no idea where he is now.

Speaking of the Terps in that era. Another trivia question. What Maryland player was the first ACC Player to declare early for the NBA draft?

dkbaseball
09-25-2007, 09:14 AM
Speaking of the Terps in that era. Another trivia question. What Maryland player was the first ACC Player to declare early for the NBA draft?

If it's not Buck Williams I think it's somebody pretty obscure. I'll take Buck.

jimsumner
09-25-2007, 09:17 AM
Buck-no

Pretty obscure-yes

dkbaseball
09-25-2007, 09:27 AM
Larry Boston?

Johnboy
09-25-2007, 09:30 AM
Buck-no

Pretty obscure-yes

. . . it's not Moses Malone, either. He signed a letter of intent to Maryland but went right to the league out of high school.

jimsumner
09-25-2007, 09:30 AM
Nope, not Larry Boston. But we are making strides the obscurity area. :)

Hint. Remember Robert McAdoo bailed after the '72 season, so this precedes McAdoo.

Olympic Fan
09-25-2007, 09:50 AM
Actually, the first player from an ACC school to jump to the NBA was not that obscure and didn't play at Maryland.

That was Bones McKinney, who passed up his last year of eligibility at UNC after leading the Tar Heels to the 1946 NCAA title game.

I guess technically you can claim he was not an ACC player, since he jumped before the league was formed. But he did jump and he did play at an ACC school.

Indoor66
09-25-2007, 09:53 AM
Actually, the first player from an ACC school to jump to the NBA was not that obscure and didn't play at Maryland.

That was Bones McKinney, who passed up his last year of eligibility at UNC after leading the Tar Heels to the 1946 NCAA title game.

I guess technically you can claim he was not an ACC player, since he jumped before the league was formed. But he did jump and he did play at an ACC school.

And he was one of the great characters in the history of the ACC and Basketball. Long Live The Seat Belt!

dkbaseball
09-25-2007, 09:54 AM
Well, somebody named Barry Yates from the Terps was drafted in 1971. I'm flying strictly on research at this point, with no memory engagement. The pre-O'brien Terps are pretty much a black hole to me, with the exception of Gary Williams and Ton McMillan's brother.

jimsumner
09-25-2007, 09:55 AM
Okay. The first ACC player to jump to the NBA after Spencer Haywood won his landmark lawsuit against the NBA.

BTW, McKinney jumped to the Basketball Association of America not the NBA. The NBA didn't exist in 1946.

greybeard
09-25-2007, 10:01 AM
If suggesting that correctly spelling Bob Cousy's name is an ad hominem attack, then I suppose I'm guilty.

We started from Brad Davis runs the fast break better than anyone in the history of basketball to didn't he have a distinct way of passing?

Lucas, Davis, and Howard? Simple. Lefty wanted to play a three-guard lineup and Lucas was better suited to play the 3 than the other two. So he moved to the 3. Davis no more ran Lucas out of the point guard spot than Sean Dockery ran J.J. Redick into the frontcourt.

Bobby from Boston? Ryan? I'm sorry but I have no earthly idea what you're talking about. Or who you're talking about.

We all know what they say about opinions. My opinion is that you are entitled to yours but it doesn't come close to reflecting reality. My opinion is that my opinion is supported by both objective evidence and the overwhelming consensus of a large body of folks who in fact most likely do know more about basketball than you. Sorry but that's my opinion.

BTW, Brad Davis played 15 seasons in the NBA. He made 51.0% of his field goal attempts and 82.8% of his foul shots over the course of that career. But don't let my penchant for facts and validation from outside agents override your opinion that he played nine seasons and couldn't shoot.

Davis played 15 seasons but I overrate him? Say what? He shot 51 percent of his field goals but averaged 7-plus a game in his highest scoring season. You run the break and get easy ones, and take shots only when absolutely in your rhythm and even you will shoot for percentage.

So, aside from pointing out my miss on Nash, what evidence do you have that supports your view? Nada.

Oh, I forgot, you have the trainman, who, excuse me for lumping you two together but you were both beating on me, relied on Bob Ryan of the Boston Globe as his supporting authority. My bad, I was just trying to help you out I suppose, given your insistence that you have something behind you besides you and a choo choo.

Look, Jimbob, you're picking nits when you say that Lucas was moved off the point because he was a better fit for forward. The guy who ran their break was Brad. Whereever Lucas played on offense or defense, if they wanted the ball in his hands on the break it would have been there.

Davis was 6' 2", strong, explosive and forcefull on the dribble, and had incredible hops. Had they wanted him to play the wing, no problemo. Lucas did not play "forward", btw; he played guard in a three guard offense. Brad played the point because he was an exceptional passer and penetrator, who finished at the basket off an upcourt charge better than John or Moe. He also brought something to Maryland that Lefty and everyone else liked, SHOWTIME, what with that underhand scoop pass.

So, claiming that the weight of authority is on your side does not make it so. BTW, the guys who made all ACC at the point ahead of Brad. How'd they do in the pros?

And, my boy Bozo did average 16.6 points a game his senior year sharing the ball with Lucas, McMillan, and Elmore. If he didn't make first team All ACC, blame it on those three and an absolutely loaded league at the time. The guy could really ball.

jimsumner
09-25-2007, 10:02 AM
I realize I answered the McKinney point without confirming that the correct answer is Barry Yates. He was a 6'7" forward who averaged 13 ppg as a sophomore in 1971. He was in the same class as O'Brien, with Len Elmore and Tom McMillen coming up from the freshman team. So Yates figured he would get buried on the bench so he'd better take his chances as he found them.

He had a cup of coffee with the Sixers but was cut early in the season and couldn't stick with anyone else, even ABA teams. Another of his classmates, Howard White started as a sophomore but ended his career on the bench as Lefty upgraded the talent base.

dkbaseball
09-25-2007, 10:16 AM
He had a cup of coffee with the Sixers but was cut early in the season and couldn't stick with anyone else, even ABA teams. Another of his classmates, Howard White started as a sophomore but ended his career on the bench as Lefty upgraded the talent base.

I maintain that what became known as Cameron craziness began when Howard White, "H" on his jersey, was showered with hot dogs in Cameron in 1973.

jimsumner
09-25-2007, 10:52 AM
And the Crazies sure loved Lefty.

BTW, were you around for either of the Brian Magid games?

chris13
09-25-2007, 11:08 AM
You know, the ACC might have been stacked in 1973, but it was also stacked in 1986. Here are some of the players Len Bias had to beat out, not only to make first team all-ACC, but to win the Player of the Year honor:

Duke: Johnny Dawkins (lottery pick, good pro with shortened career due to knee injuries....all time leading scorer in Duke history until JJ Redick broke this record), Mark Alarie (NBA player)
UNC: Brad Daugherty (lottery pick...at least one NBA all-star game...career also curtailed due to bad back), Kenny Smith (lottery pick in 1987...good NBA career...won a couple of rings as a supporting player)
NC State: Chris Washburn (arguably the most physically gifted player in the ACC in 1986...million dollar body, ten cent head)
GaTech: Mark Price (NBA All-Star), John Salley (key element of Detriot NBA title teams)
Clemson: Horace Grant (key element of Chicago Bulls NBA title teams)
Wake: Muggsy Bogues (over decade long NBA career).
UVA: Olden Polynice

I'll take the words of Coach K, Red Auerbach, and more importantly, ACC players who played in the NBA like Johnny Dawkins and Brad Daugherty as pretty good indicator that Bias had the talent to be a terrific NBA player.

TheTrain
09-25-2007, 11:11 AM
Not relying on Bob Ryan...merely pointing out quotes given to him in support of his article

And for the record, you are entitled to your opinion...you're just on an island with it. Heck feel free to argue that George Burgin was a better player than Grant Hill for all I care

OldPhiKap
09-25-2007, 11:34 AM
"You know, the ACC might have been stacked in 1973, but it was also stacked in 1986."

There was a small bar in the basement of Gilbert-Adams in '86, and I remember watching on TV there as Bias single-handedly beat UNC coming down the stretch that year. Also, IIRC, he dropped over 40 points on us in Cameron when we had the best defense in the country. Also, IIRC, he got a standing ovation from the Crazies when he fouled out of that game (okay, we had to stand the whole game anyway as students but the whole crowd was on its feet).

Abso-freakin-lutely incredible athlete. Terrible tragedy.

Carlos
09-25-2007, 12:39 PM
jim - Skip Wise's drug problems actually began before he got to the Claws. There's a section on him from the tremendous basketball book "Loose Balls" a tale about the wild days in the ABA.

There are so many great ABA stories and just as many sad ones. The Claws were originally going to be called The Baltimore Hustlers but the league didn't like the name... go figure.

At one point, Baltimore was supposed to trade former Gamecock star Tom Owens to the Kentucky Colonels for Dan Issel. The problem was that they were also supposed to send along $500K. They had Owens and sent him, but they didn't have the money. So Kentucky sells Issel but they also keep Owens. Tough break for Baltimore although they did get a player from Denver.

In the end, the Claws were disbanded and the players - who had not been paid - were allowed to take office supplies and furniture as compensation.

As for Wise, the book recounts how he was seen shivering sitting on the bench in practice one day when he didn't get his fix. Wise ended up in Golden State after the Claws dissolved but he didn't last long there. The story goes that the coach found him shooting up in the locker room one day before practice and he was immediately sent off.

MChambers
09-25-2007, 01:42 PM
Art Heyman?

greybeard
09-25-2007, 01:44 PM
You know, the ACC might have been stacked in 1973, but it was also stacked in 1986. Here are some of the players Len Bias had to beat out, not only to make first team all-ACC, but to win the Player of the Year honor:

Duke: Johnny Dawkins (lottery pick, good pro with shortened career due to knee injuries....all time leading scorer in Duke history until JJ Redick broke this record), Mark Alarie (NBA player)
UNC: Brad Daugherty (lottery pick...at least one NBA all-star game...career also curtailed due to bad back), Kenny Smith (lottery pick in 1987...good NBA career...won a couple of rings as a supporting player)
NC State: Chris Washburn (arguably the most physically gifted player in the ACC in 1986...million dollar body, ten cent head)
GaTech: Mark Price (NBA All-Star), John Salley (key element of Detriot NBA title teams)
Clemson: Horace Grant (key element of Chicago Bulls NBA title teams)
Wake: Muggsy Bogues (over decade long NBA career).
UVA: Olden Polynice

I'll take the words of Coach K, Red Auerbach, and more importantly, ACC players who played in the NBA like Johnny Dawkins and Brad Daugherty as pretty good indicator that Bias had the talent to be a terrific NBA player.

I yield.

That said, K, as much as he loved Len, what does he say if you asked him, "knowing everything you knew when they graduated, do you take Len over Dman?" Interesting.

Ditto if you asked El Deno about Brad. Deno probably would have answered the same with regard to Kenny, only he would have had his fingers crossed behind his back (Kenny is my favorite NC guard ever, and I'd love to see him coaching the Hawks). Now, Jimmy, that's another matter. Have to feel that he would have found religion and discovered that Mr. M really wasn't college material.

You guys are good; very tight, well reasoned, structured and supported. Your arguments are the stronger, and, in what has become a contest, I disavow all attempts to convince anyone otherwise. Let's say I just got in over my head.

That said, as for me, I'm dancin with the views I came with.

grey "I came into this world a man and ain't goin out a mouse" beard

PS My view of sports reporters: sports reporters back in the day were just that, reporters. The really good ones could not only give you the facts, but bring you into the play, the energy of it, the drama of it, etc. That was what they were paid for.

Yeah, there were some who had opinions and expressed them. But, those opinions were just that. The opinion of a reporter. Why I or anyone "should" defer to such judgments was and remains beyond me, particularly in the present day context.

Now that no one needs no stinkin writer or media person to recreate anything about anything, you can see it all for yourself, it seems that evey journalist, and certainly every talking head, fashions him or herself as an expert whose opinions count for everything, more often than not on things having nothing to do with the sport they purport to be discussing. Gossip mongerers. Most of the commentary is trash. Yodelling, as my man would put it. Sometimes, someone like Jay will come out with something that makes me go, "Wow." Othertimes, it's, "Say what?"

And, sorry if I do not follow when the members of the "herd" all move in the same direction. As when Dumars canned my boy Larry, or people here were hatin on Paulus, or when everyone was burrying T.O. when the Eagles decided to can him after the Super bowl because they knew that they did not have another run and wanted him to be the fall guy and waved a red flag in front of him (they managed to do what Upshur never could; unite the players who kicked the stuffing out of the owners in the next contract negotiations). Many, many other instances as well (you think).

So, anyway, if I wanted to try to be a pro, I would. I haven't, and have never claimed to be. I like where I stand much better than those guys. Thanks for providing a field where a guy can get a game.

jimsumner
09-25-2007, 03:06 PM
Carlos,

Have you ever read Tates Locke's book Caught in the Net? I feel like to take a shower with especially strong soap whenever I take it off the bookshelf.

Carlos
09-25-2007, 05:20 PM
Now there's a recommendation that will send me directly to the bookstore tonight.

jimsumner
09-25-2007, 05:50 PM
Tates Locke to booster- "We have to have this kid. Do whatever you have to do but I don't want to know the details. Whatever you have to do.

A few pages later. "Well, I didn't know they were going to do that. So why blame me? I didn't know. It's not my fault.

A few pages later. Locke to booster. "We have to have this kid" And the whole cycle repeats.

And this is the book that Locke wrote. I guess he thought he was getting redemption for his sins but he just comes off as a self-deluding lowlife.

dkbaseball
09-25-2007, 06:09 PM
And the Crazies sure loved Lefty.
BTW, were you around for either of the Brian Magid games?

Nope, absent from Cameron between '73 and '90. Yes, nobody set the early Crazies off quite like Lefty. There was the unfortunate "UCLA of the East" quote, and the full page ad in the Washington Post trolling for local players. But mostly, that was a period that liked to think of itself as valuing authenticity, and Lefty was, as Len Elmore once put it (affectionately, I think), "the flim-flam man." The quintessential used car salesman.

jimsumner
09-25-2007, 06:44 PM
Lefty peaked early at Maryland, he never did make a FF, and it sure ended badly for him at College Park. But his best teams at Maryland were mighty good and as entertaining as any I've seen. And Lefty really does believe pretty much everything he says.

But forget Maryland for a moment. What he did at Davidson was simply extraordinary. And he did it by recruiting generally excellent students. Davidson wasn't in the look-the-other-way-business and Lefty outrecruited the big boys for guys like Fred Hetzel, Dick Snyder, Mike Maloy, Doug Cook, and Brian Adrian. And it's not like he was peddling snake-oil here. Nationally competitive teams, a tough schedule, and about as good an undergraduate education as one could find. As much of a caricature as he may have been in College Park, I think he deserves a lot of credit for what he did at Davidson.

Indoor66
09-25-2007, 07:55 PM
Lefty peaked early at Maryland, he never did make a FF, and it sure ended badly for him at College Park. But his best teams at Maryland were mighty good and as entertaining as any I've seen. And Lefty really does believe pretty much everything he says.

But forget Maryland for a moment. What he did at Davidson was simply extraordinary. And he did it by recruiting generally excellent students. Davidson wasn't in the look-the-other-way-business and Lefty outrecruited the big boys for guys like Fred Hetzel, Dick Snyder, Mike Maloy, Doug Cook, and Brian Adrian. And it's not like he was peddling snake-oil here. Nationally competitive teams, a tough schedule, and about as good an undergraduate education as one could find. As much of a caricature as he may have been in College Park, I think he deserves a lot of credit for what he did at Davidson.

I agree. Hetzel was the key to that whole run. Remember that Hetzel got to Davidson via the Bill Bradley to Duke situation and scolly limits. Then Bradley showed up at Princeton, not Duke.

TheTrain
09-25-2007, 08:53 PM
Lefty is a long-time friend of my family and a proud Duke alum. He is as nice a guy as there is. He actually wanted to write a letter of recommendation for me in 1985, but my dad talked him out of it because he was not sure how the admissions office would take to a letter from a rival coach (even though he was an alum). He even offered to let my folks use his van to move me to Duke. He is one of the nicest people that you will ever meet. And don't let that accent fool you, behind that "country bumpkin" facade was a smart man.

dkbaseball
09-25-2007, 09:10 PM
No question Lefty's effort at Davidson was one of the best coaching jobs in the history of the game. While I never quite agreed when he'd say "Ahh can coach," he could sure enough recruit with anybody. And like any great salesman, no doubt he had thoroughly sold himself on the product he was marketing.

I don't think of him fondly, based on a simple little episode of mistreating the peons. Back in '75 I was a volunteer assistant with the Maryland baseball team. One day in February when the weather was crappy the pitchers and catchers went into Cole Field House to use the floor after basketball practice. Lefty was off to the side of the floor talking to someone, Lucas was on the floor horsing around with a team manager. We stood there waiting for about 20 minutes, Lefty clearly aware of our presence and our intention, Lucas absorbed in what he was doing. The head baseball coach wasn't there, so no one had the stones to ask Lefty for the floor. Finally, Lucas looked over and said, "Oh, do you guys want to use the floor. I'm sorry." I've since always thought of Luke as a good guy, and Lefty as a horse's ptoot.

Since we're on a Terp thread, let me relate something I saw Lucas do that I've never seen on a basketball floor, before or since. I'll preface it by recalling that Lucas was one of the best tennis players in the ACC, a wizard at the net with great reflexes. It was an intersquad scrimmage in Nov., '73, at Mt. Vernon High School. Lucas was guarding the inbounds passer at the baseline, his hands raised overhead in the customary manner for the situation. The inbounder throws an overhead pass, and Lucas, I guess about two or three feet away max, catches it. I just couldn't believe it. Anybody else ever seen that?

Just read Train's post. It probably deserves more weight in assessing Lefty's personality than my single encounter.

greybeard
09-25-2007, 11:05 PM
Didn't Hetzel's kid brother play for Lefty at Maryland. I think it was the younger Hetzel, who I ran into on a court somewhere; he was holding court with Lefty stories. Told how there was a timeout with Maryland down one with the ball in the final seconds. Said all Lefty could say in the huddle was, "Well, what's it gonna be, hamburger or steak. Never even hinted at a play."

Lefty enjoyed the game, and treated his players like real people and men. Life and basketball were to be enjoyed. He coached, from what I understand, a basic game. His bigs could box out a gorilla, and went and got the dang thing. His guys played with daring on offense. He did not micro-manage things on the court. The game was for the players to play.

I enjoyed washing and rooting for him as a coach as much as anyone I have ever followed. Was sorry as hell when things started to slip, and Lenny died. In a way, it was time for the Lefthander to go even independent of that.

Lefty did for Dean and Sloan what they never could do for themselves. Put some pizazz around them. Without him, what did you have: a guy in a ridiculously plaid jacket coaches a bunch of yahoos and Mr. Perfect dressed in a sky blue jacket and a shirt that never fit. Lefty stompin that foot, and punchin the air made that league, savin it from the losss of McGuire at UNC, which, Dean's victories or not, would have been a profound loss. Jimmy V also helped immensely.

But, to me the Lefthander personified the game as a game and a show, that captured America's imagination. Train's insights, as another poster put out there, are priceless. I envy him his history.

TheTrain
09-25-2007, 11:27 PM
Back in 1985, I cut a radio advertisement with Lefty for RCA dealers in the Baltimore / Washington area. The producer wanted to do it in a studio but Lefty insisted that my dad bring me down to College Park and that we cut the ad in his office. Now I had met Lefty many times before, but never on his turf. That said, when I came over to tape the ad, we spent the better part of an hour talking hoops one on one...the history of the ACC, the great games, the rivalries, etc. Then he took me on a personal tour of Cole and let me watch a closed practice. When you are a 17 y.o. kid who was obsessed with ACC hoops, there is no greater thrill imaginable.....I am sure that he knew that.

After he left Maryland and landed at James Madison, he called my father at home to see if he would have any interest in moving to Harrisonburg to help his staff. Although my father had played and had quit Maryland's freshman team after getting his shot stuffed on multiple occasions by Al Bunge in the 50s, he didn't know the first thing about coaching. Lefty figured though that (in his opinion) that my father was the best sales person he had ever come across and figured he could help him entice kids to go to JMU. My father was flattered and chuckled, but Lefty was serious. That said, my dad told him that he was happy with his life in Baltimore and that it was not in the cards.

I haven't spoken to the Old Lefthander in several years, but the fond memories remain embossed on my brain. Simply put, a kind and decent man.

jimsumner
09-25-2007, 11:29 PM
Will Hetzel.

Once beat Duke on a 50-foot shot at the buzzer.