Bo Ryan's comment about 1 and done.

[DukeAlumBS]

I saw on ESPN this morning Bo Ryan's comment about one and done. That his team stay and stay as a team instead of one and done.
He had a team that were seniors and juniors. I did a simple search and found that his team is not doing that well. IMO. A graduation rate of 36 percent of his men basketball players at 4 years not 6. I got this off the NCAA graduation rate of various teams.
I feel he was talking about other coaches. Not ours at Duke. He should hold his comments and key in on other things.
My feeling is coaches like this should look at the student first, not the player.
Have nice day.
Jimmy

[jv001]

Bo Ryan is a cry baby and was looking to lay the loss last night on everything but himself. Fouls and how the game was officiated was his cry to the media. I was listening to one of XM radio guys who happened to be a Wisconsin grad and he said that he thought Bo had changed over the years, but apparently he has not changed. He said he was the same way when he was a student there. Then to bring up the one and done thing was petty. Ryan should have been more concerned about how Coach K schooled him last night. GoDuke!

[OZ]

I saw on ESPN this morning Bo Ryan's comment about one and done. That his team stay and stay as a team instead of one and done.
He had a team that were seniors and juniors. I did a simple search and found that his team is not doing that well. IMO. A graduation rate of 36 percent of his men basketball players at 4 years not 6. I got this off the NCAA graduation rate of various teams.
I feel he was talking about other coaches. Not ours at Duke. He should hold his comments and key in on other things.
My feeling is coaches like this should look at the student first, not the player.
Have nice day.
Jimmy

While that may be true for Bo, it is not so for Wisconsin's athletic program. Some kid named Russell Wilson played at Wisconsin as a grad student having graduated from N.C. State.
Does ANYONE with a sound mind really think Bo would have turned down Jah, T Jones and Winslow? If so, and I am a OAD, I am not looking at Wisconsin. Bo might need to be reminded that two of our OADs were sitting on the bench while Duke took the game back.
Also, I don't think Coach K recruited Jah, Tyrus and Winslow thinking they were all three OAD. For that, he can only be held accountable for being a d@%n good coach.
Finally, Bo's unfortunate spewing is a great example of when the tongue has no reasonable filters. I understand his disappointment; however, he was not entitled to this championship. He had to win it - at that, he lost to a great team with an even better coach.
Bo... a word from a very smart man... "Next play."

[jay]

I don't follow Kentucky basketball, so I can't comment about how "team-oriented" Calipari is with his players, but anyone who has followed Duke basketball this year can plainly see that this year's Duke squad is just as much a "band of brothers" working together as one unit and having each other's backs as any team full of 4th year players.

What's really behind Bo's butt-hurtedness? Maybe it's the fact that K was able to get 8 guys to gel so amazingly well in only their first year together, when it's taken Bo 3 or 4 years to get that kind of mojo with his team.

Keep suckin' on them lemons, Bo. Yet another reason why K is GOAT.

[duke blue brewcrew]

I saw on ESPN this morning Bo Ryan's comment about one and done. That his team stay and stay as a team instead of one and done.
He had a team that were seniors and juniors. I did a simple search and found that his team is not doing that well. IMO. A graduation rate of 36 percent of his men basketball players at 4 years not 6. I got this off the NCAA graduation rate of various teams.
I feel he was talking about other coaches. Not ours at Duke. He should hold his comments and key in on other things.
My feeling is coaches like this should look at the student first, not the player.
Have nice day.
Jimmy

Coach Ryan IMHO seemed to have a bad case of sour grapes after the game. It's a shame he made the comments, and I'm sure after seeing them himself, there's a possibility that he regrets (at least on some level) what he said. I try to put myself in his shoes and understand his disappointment and frustration at that moment. That said, he seemed very Calipari-esque in his post game interview. Passed the buck, the Badgers played the game the right way, the refs let the game be played the wrong way. How awful for his team that the refs had to call a game like that at a time like this, blah-blah-blah. Very disappointing.

I'm personally shocked at the graduation rate of Wisconsin players - 36%?! I have done zero research on the issue, but if I had to guess the graduation rate of the Wisconsin program, I would be somewhere on the other side of the scale. For the purpose of my comments here, I can only assume the numbers are true. Maybe if they took their degrees more seriously at Wisconsin, they would have learned the meaning of the word ADJUSTMENT. They could have implemented that into their in-game strategy when Winsconsin discovered the game was "being called differently from what the Badgers were used to". Just my two cents.

[Mal]

I think the context of the comment about "rent-a-players" indicates that it was not specifically directed toward Duke, or one-and-done's, but rather 5th year transfers. Probably with an unspoken but understood swipe at Juco transfers, as well.

That said, when combined with the whining about the reffing of the game, with its subtext of "Duke gets all the calls" (coming from Wisconsin! Ha! That's rich), it did come off as though it were directed at our team. Ryan should have understood better how that comment would be taken. Overall, he came off as someone without the ability to handle what was understandably a very tough situation filled with disappointment, with any grace whatsoever. I didn't once hear him compliment our team or our players or K after the game. Perhaps he did at some point, but when the first words out of your mouth to the media after the game is griping about the physicality of the game (by a B1G coach, no less! Priceless.) and blaming the referees, no one's going to focus on anything else you say. He may as well have just screamed "Hey, you kids, get off my lawn!!!"

It's all a shame, because instead of everyone praising Wisconsin's players for a great season and in some cases great college careers today, all anyone can talk about is Bo Ryan's childish inability to comport himself appropriately.

[tux]

While that may be true for Bo, it is not so for Wisconsin's athletic program. Some kid named Russell Wilson played at Wisconsin as a grad student having graduated from N.C. State.
Does ANYONE with a sound mind really think Bo would have turned down Jah, T Jones and Winslow? If so, and I am a OAD, I am not looking at Wisconsin. Bo might need to be reminded that two of our OADs were sitting on the bench while Duke took the game back.
Also, I don't think Coach K recruited Jah, Tyrus and Winslow thinking they were all three OAD. For that, he can only be held accountable for being a d@%n good coach.
Finally, Bo's unfortunate spewing is a great example of when the tongue has no reasonable filters. I understand his disappointment; however, he was not entitled to this championship. He had to win it - at that, he lost to a great team with an even better coach.
Bo... a word from a very smart man... "Next play."

I think that's the important point. And I made that in another thread about UK. Every coach in the country would gladly accept any of these elite players. The only caveat would be academics and character/fit (i.e., I think K wants the best players but he doesn't just take anyone in the top ten). But I think the elite programs (and every other program) are primarily looking to recruit the most talented kids they can.

It's really about branding --- if you can't get the elite talent, you just claim that you run "a different kind of program" as a way to deflect your inability to land the top talent. I'm not saying that that's a great world to live in --- but on some level it makes sense with current NBA rules that there are going to be guys who need to leave. There are also going to be guys who *think* they'll be OAD who end up staying 2, 3, or even 4 years.

What K has decided (IMO) is that he's willing to adopt a model where he gets the occasional OADs (or marginal OADs) and tries to establish a lasting relationship with those kids despite their limited time as students. (E.g., he's mentioned trying to get to know the families more in the time before they arrive on campus.) If Okafor leaves for the NBA, he may still pursue his degree or be part of Duke going forward in some (and hopefully many) positive ways. So, while his time on campus as a teenager is short, the hope is that he can continue to benefit from Duke (and vice versa) going forward. That's not an untenable approach IMO.

[FerryFor50]

Bo Ryan is a hypocrite.

He got the benefit of several bad calls on Wisconsin's trip to the finals. The out of bounds call in the Mich St B1G championship game and the missed expired shot clock in the UK game come to mind. Did he whine about how bad officiating was then?

And let's put the "biggest calls" into perspective:

- On the Winslow "toe on the out of bounds" call, Nigel Hayes had a forearm in Winslow's back and was riding him out of bounds. No call.
- On the Winslow "knocked the ball out of bounds," Koenig mugged Winslow on the rebound attempt. No call.


As for fouls and how Wisconsin "doesn't foul," I think that was more a product of the B1G. On the season, Wisconsin averaged 12 fouls per game, including the NCAAs.


In the B1G, they averaged 11 fouls per game.
In the B1G conf tourny, they averaged 7 fouls per game.
In the NCAAs, they averaged 13 fouls per game.





Wisconsin's foul totals in the B1G tournament:
11 fouls vs MSU
7 vs Purdue
5 vs Michigan (!)

Wisconsin fouls in the NCAAs:
11 vs Coastal Carolina
13 vs Oregon
18 vs UNC (!)
21 vs Arizona (!)
14 vs Kentucky
15 vs Duke (Duke had 13. And keep in mind they were intentionally fouling at the end a few times)

What that tells me is that for a majority of the season, Wisconsin was the beneficiary of the whistle and enjoyed a 30-3 record going in to the tournament. It also showed that they didn't have to deal with officiating adversity, and as a result, had ZERO clue how to react to it. They were spoiled and it showed in their reaction after the game (both Bo Ryan and Bronson Koenig).



In regular season losses, these were their foul totals:


vs Duke: 17 (Duke had 18)
vs Rutgers: 14 (Rutgers had 18)
vs MD: 12 (MD had 14)

Bo would have had a much bigger gripe with the foul totals against UNC and Arizona (way more fouls in games they won and didn't need to intentionally foul), but since he won the games, he handled it with class. The Duke game was just the 3rd highest foul total for Wisconsin in the tournament.

As for rent-a-players, he definitely recruits guys who are looking to be one and done. Guys like Diamond Stone and Henry Ellenson come to mind.

[phaedrus]

I loved this Wisconsin team, and I've always respected Bo Ryan - that's why I was so disappointed by his unfounded, whiny comments. In the last two years alone, Wisconsin has offered both Diamond Stone and Kevon Looney, both likely one-and-done.

[tux]

Bo Ryan is a hypocrite.

He got the benefit of several bad calls on Wisconsin's trip to the finals. The out of bounds call in the Mich St B1G championship game and the missed expired shot clock in the UK game come to mind. Did he whine about how bad officiating was then?

And let's put the "biggest calls" into perspective:

- On the Winslow "toe on the out of bounds" call, Nigel Hayes had a forearm in Winslow's back and was riding him out of bounds. No call.
- On the Winslow "knocked the ball out of bounds," Koenig mugged Winslow on the rebound attempt. No call.


As for fouls and how Wisconsin "doesn't foul," I think that was more a product of the B1G. On the season, Wisconsin averaged 12 fouls per game, including the NCAAs.


In the B1G, they averaged 11 fouls per game.
In the B1G conf tourny, they averaged 7 fouls per game.
In the NCAAs, they averaged 13 fouls per game.





What that tells me is that for a majority of the season, Wisconsin was the beneficiary of the whistle and enjoyed a 30-3 record going in to the tournament. It also showed that they didn't have to deal with officiating adversity, and as a result, had ZERO clue how to react to it. They were spoiled and it showed in their reaction after the game (both Bo Ryan and Bronson Koenig).



In regular season losses, these were their foul totals:



Bo would have had a much bigger gripe with the foul totals against UNC and Arizona (way more fouls in games they won and didn't need to intentionally foul), but since he won the games, he handled it with class. The Duke game was just the 3rd highest foul total for Wisconsin in the tournament.

As for rent-a-players, he definitely recruits guys who are looking to be one and done. Guys like Diamond Stone and Henry Ellenson come to mind.


Thank you for this post!

I also thought Winslow was fouled on those plays (especially the tipped ball play). It's like everyone was so laser-like focused on Winslow's fingertips that they failed to look at the mugging just an arms length away...

Wisconsin decided to play Oakafor straight up and guard the 3-point line. Duke countered in the 2nd half by driving the ball and trying to draw fouls at the rim. It's an adjustment Duke has made in the closing weeks of the season and a big reason Cook's offense has been less explosive; he wasn't getting any of those super-clean (in rhythm) looks from 3.

If anything I thought the way the game was called was making it just as hard (if not harder) for Duke, as both Okafor and Winslow were dealing with foul trouble almost the whole night. Now, just like any game, I thought there were some weird no calls coupled with some head scratching actual calls the entire night. The big picture issue IMO is the lack of consistency in how the perimeter and paint are called. The NCAA needs to decide how the games should be called and the refs need to stick to the script. Then, the players and coaches can adjust accordingly; making these kids adjust from game to game and sometimes from half to half is making everyone cranky...

[FerryFor50]

Thank you for this post!

I also thought Winslow was fouled on those plays (especially the tipped ball play). It's like everyone was so laser-like focused on Winslow's fingertips that they failed to look at the mugging just an arms length away...

Wisconsin decided to play Oakafor straight up and guard the 3-point line. Duke countered in the 2nd half by driving the ball and trying to draw fouls at the rim. It's an adjustment Duke has made in the closing weeks of the season and a big reason Cook's offense has been less explosive; he wasn't getting any of those super-clean (in rhythm) looks from 3.

If anything I thought the way the game was called was making it just as hard (if not harder) for Duke, as both Okafor and Winslow were dealing with foul trouble almost the whole night. Now, just like any game, I thought there were some weird no calls coupled with some head scratching actual calls the entire night. The big picture issue IMO is the lack of consistency in how the perimeter and paint are called. The NCAA needs to decide how the games should be called and the refs need to stick to the script. Then, the players and coaches can adjust accordingly; making these kids adjust from game to game and sometimes from half to half is making everyone cranky...

I usually think officiating is poor in most games. But I really harp on it after a win more than a loss. That's because the motive changes the narrative. If you whine about it after a loss, it is desperate. If it's after a win, it feels like there's more merit.

I think the officiating was bad for both sides. Anti-Duke fans will say it was skewed for Duke. Pro-Duke will say the opposite. I think it was pretty evenly bad, all things considered. Missed foul calls (No way on earth Kaminsky committed just 1 foul all night. I saw several moving screens they didn't call on him. And no way Jah wasn't fouled more than they called), incorrect calls (the block on Winslow that should have been a no-call or charge, the out of bounds x2, etc) and inconsistency. Fouls were 10-2 in favor of Wisconsin in the first half. Then the script flipped in the 2nd half. But the fact of the matter is Duke's two best players (Winslow and Okafor) were only able to log 54 of 80 minutes (67%) combined due to foul trouble, while Wisconsin's best players (Dekker and Kaminsky) were on the floor for 73 of 80 minutes (91%). Think that's not a decided advantage for Wisconsin?

I understand the game is hard to officiate. But they were still pretty bad at it.

[Zeb]

I think the context of the comment about "rent-a-players" indicates that it was not specifically directed toward Duke, or one-and-done's, but rather 5th year transfers. Probably with an unspoken but understood swipe at Juco transfers, as well.

Two reasons I believe Bo was really talking about OAD's and not transfers: 1) 5th year transfers were not a factor at all in this year's final four, so why would he be complaining about them? and 2) Why did he pause so long before going into the "rent-a-player" rant, alluding to the fact that he knew what he would say was controversial?

He added the 5th year transfer comment as a smokescreen to avoid looking too confrontational.

That said, I don't really care about this. I can't imagine how difficult it would be to be gracious minutes after your greatest career disappointment.

[FerryFor50]

Two reasons I believe Bo was really talking about OAD's and not transfers: 1) 5th year transfers were not a factor at all in this year's final four, so why would he be complaining about them? and 2) Why did he pause so long before going into the "rent-a-player" rant, alluding to the fact that he knew what he would say was controversial?

He added the 5th year transfer comment as a smokescreen to avoid looking too confrontational.

That said, I don't really care about this. I can't imagine how difficult it would be to be gracious minutes after your greatest career disappointment.

For as much flack as Calipari gets, he managed to handle a more disappointing loss with class.

[diablesseblu]

Duke's men's BB program has higher graduation rates than does Wisconsin.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/08/upshot/duke-is-also-a-winner-in-graduation-rates.html?emc=edit_tnt_20150407&nlid=17640090&tntemail0=y&abt=0002&abg=0

[MCFinARL]

Two reasons I believe Bo was really talking about OAD's and not transfers: 1) 5th year transfers were not a factor at all in this year's final four, so why would he be complaining about them? and 2) Why did he pause so long before going into the "rent-a-player" rant, alluding to the fact that he knew what he would say was controversial?

He added the 5th year transfer comment as a smokescreen to avoid looking too confrontational.

That said, I don't really care about this. I can't imagine how difficult it would be to be gracious minutes after your greatest career disappointment.

Agreed--although, somewhat amazingly, Calipari managed to do it. Maybe it is easier if you have already won championships, but this year was going to be the over the moon one for Kentucky.

[budwom]

Two reasons I believe Bo was really talking about OAD's and not transfers: 1) 5th year transfers were not a factor at all in this year's final four, so why would he be complaining about them? and 2) Why did he pause so long before going into the "rent-a-player" rant, alluding to the fact that he knew what he would say was controversial?

He added the 5th year transfer comment as a smokescreen to avoid looking too confrontational.

That said, I don't really care about this. I can't imagine how difficult it would be to be gracious minutes after your greatest career disappointment.

Precisely right. He's recruited likely one and dones like Diamond Stone, would gladly have taken Okafor et al....really a sad performance.

[Duvall]

Two reasons I believe Bo was really talking about OAD's and not transfers: 1) 5th year transfers were not a factor at all in this year's final four, so why would he be complaining about them? and 2) Why did he pause so long before going into the "rent-a-player" rant, alluding to the fact that he knew what he would say was controversial?

He added the 5th year transfer comment as a smokescreen to avoid looking too confrontational.

That said, I don't really care about this. I can't imagine how difficult it would be to be gracious minutes after your greatest career disappointment.

I mean, it can't be *that* difficult. Coaches manage it every year! Okay, so it probably stings less for someone like Krzyzewski that's already won, or the coach of a Cinderella that's just happy to be there, but still. Even the coaches that are jerks usually manage to make it through the postgame press conference without embarrassing themselves.

[NYBri]

It's all a shame, because instead of everyone praising Wisconsin's players for a great season and in some cases great college careers today, all anyone can talk about is Bo Ryan's childish inability to comport himself appropriately.

This is the real point. The real losers when it comes to Ryan's remarks, are his players. Irony knows nothing but irony.

[Mal]

He added the 5th year transfer comment as a smokescreen to avoid looking too confrontational.

Maybe so. I would give him the benefit of the doubt, but...


That said, I don't really care about this. I can't imagine how difficult it would be to be gracious minutes after your greatest career disappointment.

I disagree with this. If you're a gracious person, you'll be gracious. Bo Ryan has a history of acting this way in defeat. I'd be willing to bet that after the 1986 National Championship game, certainly his greatest career disappointment to that point and an analogous loss in his first title game, K wasn't primarily bemoaning the aggressive style of play Louisville took over the game with, or the fact that there was a two whistle discrepency in the Cardinals' favor (or that two of our starters fouled out, if memory serves).

[Matches]

I mean, it can't be *that* difficult. Coaches manage it every year! Okay, so it probably stings less for someone like Krzyzewski that's already won, or the coach of a Cinderella that's just happy to be there, but still. Even the coaches that are jerks usually manage to make it through the postgame press conference without embarrassing themselves.

I will pretty much give players a pass on this kind of thing, for all the reasons you say. Emotional night, tough loss, and then they're immediately herded into a press conference so some reporter can ask them how it feels to lose. I can't even.

The coach should be better than that. Contrast K's post-game presser after the Syracuse loss last year (with the non-call at the end) with how Ryan behaved last night.

(And yeah - he absolutely threw in the 5th-year thing to try to cover himself.)

[Henderson]

At some point someone is going to ask Bo Ryan what a "rent-a-player" is and to provide examples.

[Duke95]

Bo Ryan saying he doesn't do one-and-done players is like your average joe saying he doesn't do "supermodels".

Yeah, it ain't because of your choice, pal. They just don't want you.

[gumbomoop]

At some point someone is going to ask Bo Ryan what a "rent-a-player" is and to provide examples.

He was undoubtely referencing Andrew Gaze. I hope there's no "better" example of a short-term rental than this.

[cspan37421]

He was undoubtely referencing Andrew Gaze. I hope there's no "better" example of a short-term rental than this.

Wasn't he about 35 years old, former Australian pro? Or just looked that way (and shot it that way too).

[Google tells me he was almost 24 at the time. But I swear, I remember seeing a "touch of grey" in his hair then]

[DukeDevilDeb]

... links to the Bo Ryan post game presser and to Coach K's? Many, many thanks.

[Edouble]

... links to the Bo Ryan post game presser and to Coach K's? Many, many thanks.

http://www.goduke.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?id=3908192&db_oem_id=4200

[Owen Meany]

I'm pretty sure Ryan added the bit about 5th year transfers when he realized how bad his comment was after saying it. 5th year transfers are rare, and they are guys who actually graduated from their original university before moving on. I am also unaware of any that played an important part for any big time program this year. They are hardly a point of controversy. I believe he backed off because he knew it sounded whiny and ungracious, and because it might come back and bite him.


I'm sure Ryan's not thrilled to have his comment out there for other coached to use when he is trying to convince top 20 guys to come to Madison. So he'll probably try to distance himself from the comment. But its already out there and he has nobody but himself to blame.


As someone pointed out, he recruited Stone, Looney and Ellenson. That Ellenson kid was actually a legacy recruit (his dad played at Wisconsin) who lives in Wisconsin and is choosing schools at the height of Wiscy's and Ryan's popularity. Does anyone have any idea what team/coach he chose?:D

[DukeDevilDeb]

http://www.goduke.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?id=3908192&db_oem_id=4200

Thank you!

[GopherBlue]

The chart of 6yr graduation rates for Duke and Wisconsin shown in this NYTimes article is quite striking. Gee, what happened in 2001 to coincide with the rapid and sustained downward trend in Wisconsin's graduation rates? Oh yeah, that was the year Ryan arrived on campus. :p

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/08/upshot/duke-is-also-a-winner-in-graduation-rates.html?emc=edit_tnt_20150407&nlid=17640090&tntemail0=y&abt=0002&abg=0


And best quote of the night... following Ryan's post-game rant - ripping the refs and Duke's style of play, and giving his opponent no credit for the win. Greg Gumbel: "Bo Ryan, classy and gracious in defeat." Sometimes unintentional sarcasm is the best.

[Neals384]

I'm pretty sure Ryan added the bit about 5th year transfers when he realized how bad his comment was after saying it. 5th year transfers are rare, and they are guys who actually graduated from their original university before moving on. I am also unaware of any that played an important part for any big time program this year. They are hardly a point of controversy. I believe he backed off because he knew it sounded whiny and ungracious, and because it might come back and bite him.


I'm sure Ryan's not thrilled to have his comment out there for other coached to use when he is trying to convince top 20 guys to come to Madison. So he'll probably try to distance himself from the comment. But its already out there and he has nobody but himself to blame.


As someone pointed out, he recruited Stone, Looney and Ellenson. That Ellenson kid was actually a legacy recruit (his dad played at Wisconsin) who lives in Wisconsin and is choosing schools at the height of Wiscy's and Ryan's popularity. Does anyone have any idea what team/coach he chose?:D
Marquette! Wojo is out-recruiting Bo in his home state!

[Duvall]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aluT-VpxrM

That Bo, he's a charmer.

[miramar]

- On the Winslow "toe on the out of bounds" call, Nigel Hayes had a forearm in Winslow's back and was riding him out of bounds. No call.

Winslow wears basketball shoes that have a convex bottom, although I'm not sure if that's the right term. In other words, the front part of the shoe is probably a quarter inch or so off the floor.

So even if his foot was above the line looking down on the play, he might not have been out of bounds because the shoe was not necessarily touching the end line.

And as far as his rent-a-player comment, I have to say that's true. He doesn't have rent-a-players because no one and dones are interested. It's easy to be virtuous when you don't face temptation.

[Duke95]

Bo is about as good at "graduate-a-player" as he is at "rent-a-player".

[75Crazie]

Graduation rates, meh. UNCheat has proven how worthless those statistics can be.

[COYS]

I've heard Mike Francesa, Dan Patrick, and Andy Katz all explicitly say the refs didn't lose the game for Wiscy. Francesa went as far as to say it was a really poor showing by Ryan. I think he's getting some just criticism from a variety of sources.

[KandG]

I will pretty much give players a pass on this kind of thing, for all the reasons you say. Emotional night, tough loss, and then they're immediately herded into a press conference so some reporter can ask them how it feels to lose. I can't even.

The coach should be better than that. Contrast K's post-game presser after the Syracuse loss last year (with the non-call at the end) with how Ryan behaved last night.



This is my position exactly.

I will throw a bone to Bo Ryan on one point, though. His team really has defended extremely well without fouling all season. Part of that is they defend somewhat softly especially at the start of games and concede a lot of midrange looks, but their size means they do pretty well contesting at the rim and preventing 3 point looks.

The foul discrepancy between Duke and Wisconsin maybe shouldn't have been so lopsided in the first half, but I thought Wisconsin for much of the first half gave us lots of problems with their length and ability to exploit mismatches. I thought Jah and Justise were frankly a little overwhelmed at times, and Justise was rattled enough that his defense with two fouls was quite bad (something K alluded to in the post-game).

In the second half, I could see Bo thinking that his team was doing what they've done all year in staying in front of their men and not fouling, but credit to Duke for really forcing the action and for Tyus and Grayson to keep driving it at them. I didn't have an issue with most of the foul calls other than Jah's third and a foul Justise drew that could easily have been a charge since he led with his elbows.

Bo probably thought "what is my team supposed to do?" when the fouls piled up, but has his team really seen the kind of backcourt and wing penetrators that Duke had? They gave up a lot to Kentucky's guards, but the Harrisons/Booker/Ulis weren't really hunting fouls. Duke's penetrators were forcing the action much more purposefully.

As for the infamous Justise non-calls on the baseline and the tip out of bounds, it's a shame those weren't called, but Wisconsin benefited from a step on the baseline by one of their players in their conference tournament so they don't have much ground to stand on.

I actually wish the officials had ruled Wisconsin ball on the Justise tip out of bounds, because I felt we would have stopped the Badgers anyway (plus I just want to see the right call made), but I blame that on college officials being more timid than NBA officials when it comes to making a strong, potentially game-altering decision. They didn't rule a flagrant during the Wisconsin-KY game despite clear evidence on the replay, and they went the "inconclusive" route on the Justise tip. Hey refs, replay is there for a reason, and you should use it to help you.

All this said, Bo Ryan set a very poor example with his comments to Tracy Wolfson and in the post-game presser. I can cut him some slack because his team played a certain way all year and nearly succeeded with it one more time to win a championship, and he just couldn't get it done. But he should really try a little more humility and crediting of the opponent as an example to his players.

[Richard Berg]

"Rent" implies the player is being paid. Does Bo know something we don't?

[uh_no]

I've heard Mike Francesa, Dan Patrick, and Andy Katz all explicitly say the refs didn't lose the game for Wiscy. Francesa went as far as to say it was a really poor showing by Ryan. I think he's getting some just criticism from a variety of sources.

well if Mike said it, it probably means the refs DID lose the game for wiscy....but given the stars aligning and other pundits actually AGREEING with him, there might be something to it.

[tux]

well if Mike said it, it probably means the refs DID lose the game for wiscy....but given the stars aligning and other pundits actually AGREEING with him, there might be something to it.

In contrast to post-championship chatter in the past, I'm a bit relieved to see a lot of folks in the media not taking the bait... I think the refs have been a big enough story in general (not just Duke games), that folks may have strong opinions but they're not necessarily linked to Duke anymore. I see a lot more comments about bad calls both ways than I see people trying to take something away from what Duke accomplished. Except for Bo Ryan, of course. In fact, Bo probably made it less likely for non-Wisconsin fans to agree with him by going so far off script last night.

[DukeAlumBS]

Again a simple search of NCAA graduation rates is out there. I did not mean to finger him. The information is there. I have found that there is a difference between public vs private selection of their players and a difference in their graduation rates as well.
I have to say most public universities are great academically across the board. Wisconsin , Michigan and UNC all have great law schools, great business schools, great medical schools. Some differ in their selection process in bringing in athletes. This has been my thoughts.
We have one having academic problems now, Syracuse. I still am lost with the UNC issue and just gave up.
My thoughts and why is I found his comment really upset me because I felt he was talking about our team. Again, that irritated me.
Actually, gonna call it quits. Time for my Glenlivet 16. The Glenlivet to celebrate our win!
You all have a nice day

Jimmy

r

[Rich]

I just watched the whole press conference and he took a number of petty pot shots at the allowed physicality and lack of calls throughout the game. I've told people that, outside of Duke, I really like this Wisconsin team and would have rooted for them over just about anyone else. Their players seem like a bunch of tight knit, good guys. It's too bad their coach came off as such a jerk. It demeans everything they've done the past few years.

[AustinDevil]

Scanning this thread, I didn't see where this has been posted yet: "Duke's Coach K Calls Rent-A-Player Criticism 'Harsh'"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/07/coach-k-draft_n_7016956.html?utm_hp_ref=sports&ir=Sports

[brevity]

Look, I see how this subject is newsworthy, but at best this postgame attitude after losing a national championship is a distant second to 2003. (That year the losing coach used an expletive when asked about a potential job opening.)

[Kfanarmy]

I usually think officiating is poor in most games. But I really harp on it after a win more than a loss. That's because the motive changes the narrative. If you whine about it after a loss, it is desperate. If it's after a win, it feels like there's more merit.

I think the officiating was bad for both sides. Anti-Duke fans will say it was skewed for Duke. Pro-Duke will say the opposite. I think it was pretty evenly bad, all things considered. Missed foul calls (No way on earth Kaminsky committed just 1 foul all night. I saw several moving screens they didn't call on him. And no way Jah wasn't fouled more than they called), incorrect calls (the block on Winslow that should have been a no-call or charge, the out of bounds x2, etc) and inconsistency. Fouls were 10-2 in favor of Wisconsin in the first half. Then the script flipped in the 2nd half. But the fact of the matter is Duke's two best players (Winslow and Okafor) were only able to log 54 of 80 minutes (67%) combined due to foul trouble, while Wisconsin's best players (Dekker and Kaminsky) were on the floor for 73 of 80 minutes (91%). Think that's not a decided advantage for Wisconsin?

I understand the game is hard to officiate. But they were still pretty bad at it.

I think the script flipped in the second half because Coach K was whipping Duke guards into the lane to the rim which forced the Wiscy D to respond. Great adjustment.

[TNTDevil]

~snip~

Wisconsin decided to play Oakafor straight up and guard the 3-point line. Duke countered in the 2nd half by driving the ball and trying to draw fouls at the rim. It's an adjustment Duke has made in the closing weeks of the season and a big reason Cook's offense has been less explosive; he wasn't getting any of those super-clean (in rhythm) looks from 3.
~snipGood point's in Tux's entire post but, I wanted to zero-in on this point. I don't think we "countered" in the second half as I think we were driving the ball in the first half but, just not getting the fouls called to our benefit. Coach K made reference to this during his halftime "press availability" when he said (roughly): "...we can't get them to foul." A more...respectful...way of saying we're not getting the foul calls. And, he was right. To wit:

~snip~Fouls were 10-2 in favor of Wisconsin in the first half.


I usually think officiating is poor in most games. But I really harp on it after a win more than a loss. That's because the motive changes the narrative. If you whine about it after a loss, it is desperate. If it's after a win, it feels like there's more merit.

I think the officiating was bad for both sides. Anti-Duke fans will say it was skewed for Duke. Pro-Duke will say the opposite. I think it was pretty evenly bad, all things considered. Missed foul calls (No way on earth Kaminsky committed just 1 foul all night. I saw several moving screens they didn't call on him. And no way Jah wasn't fouled more than they called), incorrect calls (the block on Winslow that should have been a no-call or charge, the out of bounds x2, etc) and inconsistency. Fouls were 10-2 in favor of Wisconsin in the first half. Then the script flipped in the 2nd half. But the fact of the matter is Duke's two best players (Winslow and Okafor) were only able to log 54 of 80 minutes (67%) combined due to foul trouble, while Wisconsin's best players (Dekker and Kaminsky) were on the floor for 73 of 80 minutes (91%). Think that's not a decided advantage for Wisconsin?

I understand the game is hard to officiate. But they were still pretty bad at it.I had to revisit this post in it's entirety because it's pretty damn accurate. The officiating in the FF was just terrible. In all three games and, both ways. And I totally agree with the point that I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.ing about officiating after a win should afford some legitimacy to those who choose to make comments. I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.ing about the refs after a loss always comes across as "sour grapes" no matter how accurate the points made (and Bo Ryan should have recognized as much).

Moving screens have been a problem all year for college hoops. It seems that the "new" screen technique is to set the screen and, as soon as you've made contact with "Screenee", the Screener turns into the "Screenee" and drives them (and usually the man guarding the Screener) in the direction the Screener wants to go. This makes it the screen appear to be more of a lead-block than just a simple screen and, it practically never gets called. This is not to say that the other instances of classic moving screens aren't an issue, which they are but, this technique seems (to me at least) more egregious and, for whatever reason, totally ignored by officials. One of the things that Marshall does so well is set good, hard screens (probably because he's used to getting a foul called on him for just getting off the bench).

The biggest turn-around in the MSU game was, I believe, when during the under-16 TO Coach must have told our guys to simply bust through the screens and force the officials to call the foul on us which, for the most part, they didn't make that call.

[Kfanarmy]

I don't follow Kentucky basketball, so I can't comment about how "team-oriented" Calipari is with his players, but anyone who has followed Duke basketball this year can plainly see that this year's Duke squad is just as much a "band of brothers" working together as one unit and having each other's backs as any team full of 4th year players.

What's really behind Bo's butt-hurtedness? Maybe it's the fact that K was able to get 8 guys to gel so amazingly well in only their first year together, when it's taken Bo 3 or 4 years to get that kind of mojo with his team.

Keep suckin' on them lemons, Bo. Yet another reason why K is GOAT.

With you on that, but can you even imagine how good these guys could be in three more seasons together? Sprinkle some super stud underclassmen in...Just close your eyes and dream

[FerryFor50]

I just watched the whole press conference and he took a number of petty pot shots at the allowed physicality and lack of calls throughout the game. I've told people that, outside of Duke, I really like this Wisconsin team and would have rooted for them over just about anyone else. Their players seem like a bunch of tight knit, good guys. It's too bad their coach came off as such a jerk. It demeans everything they've done the past few years.

Most of his players, at least.

Bronson Koenig had a lot of whining after the game.

https://twitter.com/search?q=bronson%20koenig&src=tyah


Bronson Koenig on what turned the momentum after 9 point lead: "Pick which and-1 was called for them."

4992

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CB_rmwMVEAALpon.png

https://twitter.com/SBNationCBB/status/585445528483143680


http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2015/04/07/wisconsin-officiating-ncaa-championship-bo-ryan-bronson-koenig/25397385/

[FerryFor50]

Moving screens have been a problem all year for college hoops. It seems that the "new" screen technique is to set the screen and, as soon as you've made contact with "Screenee", the Screener turns into the "Screenee" and drives them (and usually the man guarding the Screener) in the direction the Screener wants to go. This makes it the screen appear to be more of a lead-block than just a simple screen and, it practically never gets called. This is not to say that the other instances of classic moving screens aren't an issue, which they are but, this technique seems (to me at least) more egregious and, for whatever reason, totally ignored by officials. One of the things that Marshall does so well is set good, hard screens (probably because he's used to getting a foul called on him for just getting off the bench).


Totally on board with the assessment of the moving screens. I'd also note that, in addition to the "turn into the guy you are setting a screen on as you make contact," you often see them turn several times. I even saw a few hip checks to ensure the guy running around the screen had some contact. Pay attention to how stationary *most* of the Duke screens were. Amile and Marshall especially. Jah, not as much, as he was rolling before he finished being set.

Two things I *really* hate to see with screen and roll offense:


When the guy trying to fight around/through a screen gets called for a foul when the screener initiated the contact
When a shooter is trying to get open off the ball pushes a defender (two arms most of the time) into a screen


Those almost never get called on the offense. Drives me batty.

[TNTDevil]

One more thing...I forget if it was Ryan or one of the Wisconsin players in the post-game that said (paraphrased): "In all our practices, we always call a foul on the offensive player if he jumps into the defender to create contact (on the shot)." After I stopped laughing, I yelled at the electric teevee machine: "Oh really?!? Because that's almost never the way it's called during games. In fact, I've seen some really extreme contortions by shooters attempting to get the foul.

[rifraf]

I thought the same thing! "Hmm. That's an interesting way to practice Bo. We actually used to do something interesting. When the player held the ball and ran around with it, we didn't call anything. It was really frustrating when the refs in a game didn't do the same."

[Rich]

Most of his players, at least.

Bronson Koenig had a lot of whining after the game.

Perhaps, but some of that is because his coached tacitly blessed it by his own petty remarks. I think if the coach behaves professionally the kids will generally follow. Isn't that what teaching is all about?

[FerryFor50]

One more thing...I forget if it was Ryan or one of the Wisconsin players in the post-game that said (paraphrased): "In all our practices, we always call a foul on the offensive player if he jumps into the defender to create contact (on the shot)." After I stopped laughing, I yelled at the electric teevee machine: "Oh really?!? Because that's almost never the way it's called during games. In fact, I've seen some really extreme contortions by shooters attempting to get the foul.

What's also interesting is that Nigel Hayes DID EXACTLY THAT on one of Justise Winslow's fouls. Winslow was straight up. Hayes contorted into him. Foul on Winslow.

The other fouls on Winslow were:


Borderline blocking call on Winslow, who tried to sell contact after a Wisconsin player jumped in the air to deliver a pass. Later in the game, Winslow does a similar jump pass and a Wisconsin player tries to sell contact. That one was correctly called "no call."
Nigel Hayes posts Winslow up and hooks him. Full arm hook. Winslow fouls him after Hayes gets around him.
Final foul was at the end of the game where Winslow fouled on purpose to prevent a 3 with a foul to give


The fouls on Okafor were mostly legit. He charged on the first foul, with an exaggerated flop by Kaminsky. Then he did lower his hands on Kaminsky drives to commit fouls, but they were minor contact. Fouls to the letter of the law.

I didn't have a problem with the Okafor fouls, and honestly, he could have picked up a few biting on Kaminsky shot fakes/drives on the perimeter.

What I had a problem with was the fact that Jah (and other Duke players) would draw contact on drives and not get the call. Kaminsky lowered his arms on shots several times and made contact and no whistle, as well as the aforementioned moving screens. Only foul on Kaminsky all night was the Jah bear hug, which, if we're going with letter of law, could have been called a flagrant 1.

I also noticed that part of the Wisconsin defensive strategy is "arms up, chest high" but also "move under defenders in the air with arms up/chest high." That also wasn't getting called.

I do find it to be completely sanctimonious garbage to imply you are the only coach in the nation that practices not fouling. Roy Williams pulls this card on occasion, too.

[AustinDevil]

Most of his players, at least.

Bronson Koenig had a lot of whining after the game.

https://twitter.com/search?q=bronson%20koenig&src=tyah



4992

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CB_rmwMVEAALpon.png

https://twitter.com/SBNationCBB/status/585445528483143680


http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2015/04/07/wisconsin-officiating-ncaa-championship-bo-ryan-bronson-koenig/25397385/

I'll tell him why his chin is sore: because he used it to commit a stupid defensive foul!

[TNTDevil]

Totally on board with the assessment of the moving screens. I'd also note that, in addition to the "turn into the guy you are setting a screen on as you make contact," you often see them turn several times. I even saw a few hip checks to ensure the guy running around the screen had some contact. Pay attention to how stationary *most* of the Duke screens were. Amile and Marshall especially. Jah, not as much, as he was rolling before he finished being set.

Two things I *really* hate to see with screen and roll offense:


When the guy trying to fight around/through a screen gets called for a foul when the screener initiated the contact
When a shooter is trying to get open off the ball pushes a defender (two arms most of the time) into a screen


Those almost never get called on the offense. Drives me batty.Indeed! There were a couple of times in the MSU game when Quinn's man was literally orbiting the screener trying to get free of Quinn and, all the while the screener was moving back-and-forth (kinda like he was playing with a Hula-hoop) to stay in Quinn's way. The entire trio probably moved a meter further into the backcourt during this episode, which only ended when the official finally called a foul- on Quinn, of course.

[CDu]

I'll tell him why his chin is sore: because he used it to commit a stupid defensive foul!

Yup. He got beaten off the dribble. Jones stopped on a dime and rose straight up for the shot, and Koenig reacted slowly (kept moving toward the baseline). So when Jones went stright up, Koenig's chin crossed the path of Jones' shoulder (forearm?).

Don't want to get your chin hit by the shooter? Don't run your face in front of the shooter's shooting path. As a general rule, whenever your chin is leading the way defensively, that's a bad sign.

[FerryFor50]

Perhaps, but some of that is because his coached tacitly blessed it by his own petty remarks. I think if the coach behaves professionally the kids will generally follow. Isn't that what teaching is all about?

Oh, I don't disagree. And you can look at the body language of the players in ANY Wisconsin game after a foul call. They are genuinely SHOCKED they were whistled. Kaminsky and Dekker, especially. Only guys I don't see doing that are Hayes and Gasser.

Last night, they smacked Grayson in the face on a drive and were in disbelief they got whistled. I mean, how do you rationalize with *that*?

Some of it is coaching, but a lot of it is personality/maturity. Remember how bad Sulaimon's body language was? Cook used to be bad, too. He's toned it down a lot. And Amile sometimes does it.

[FerryFor50]

Yup. He got beaten off the dribble. Jones stopped on a dime and rose straight up for the shot, and Koenig reacted slowly (kept moving toward the baseline). So when Jones went stright up, Koenig's chin crossed the path of Jones' shoulder (forearm?).

Don't want to get your chin hit by the shooter? Don't run your face in front of the shooter's shooting path. As a general rule, whenever your chin is leading the way defensively, that's a bad sign.

I actually tweeted that same sentiment to him. :D

Also, in honor of Wheat... where was the foul call on Koenig when Tyus kicked out his leg on a shot and Koenig ran through it and knocked Tyus down?

And does anyone remember the play where Tyus got called for a foul after Dekker knocked Koenig down on a jumper? (to be fair, Tyus hit Koenig's arm, but I think Dekker knocking him down sold it)

[Ichabod Drain]

I'll tell him why his chin is sore: because he used it to commit a stupid defensive foul!

His chin actually ran into Tyus' Stones...

[MCFinARL]

With you on that, but can you even imagine how good these guys could be in three more seasons together? Sprinkle some super stud underclassmen in...Just close your eyes and dream

I think you got lost on your way to the "optimist" thread. ;)

[Rich]

Oh, I don't disagree. And you can look at the body language of the players in ANY Wisconsin game after a foul call. They are genuinely SHOCKED they were whistled. Kaminsky and Dekker, especially. Only guys I don't see doing that are Hayes and Gasser.

Last night, they smacked Grayson in the face on a drive and were in disbelief they got whistled. I mean, how do you rationalize with *that*?

Some of it is coaching, but a lot of it is personality/maturity. Remember how bad Sulaimon's body language was? Cook used to be bad, too. He's toned it down a lot. And Amile sometimes does it.

Justise does it too, but he just looks angry. :D

[BD80]

... "In all our practices, we always call a foul on the offensive player if he jumps into the defender to create contact (on the shot)." ...

So the Wisconsin coaches are to blame for incorrectly teaching their players?

[FerryFor50]

Justise does it too, but he just looks angry. :D


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msRaooooyds

[COYS]

Justise does it too, but he just looks angry. :D

Slightly off topic, here, but is possible that we need to add Justise to the Badass Dukie Club, of which Nate is the Chairman? Dude is tough as nails and has a stare that would terrify Chuck Norris.

[DukieInKansas]

I actually tweeted that same sentiment to him. :D

Also, in honor of Wheat... where was the foul call on Koenig when Tyus kicked out his leg on a shot and Koenig ran through it and knocked Tyus down?

And does anyone remember the play where Tyus got called for a foul after Dekker knocked Koenig down on a jumper? (to be fair, Tyus hit Koenig's arm, but I think Dekker knocking him down sold it)

I thought of Wheat on that one, too.

[Rich]

Slightly off topic, here, but is possible that we need to add Justise to the Badass Dukie Club, of which Nate is the Chairman? Dude is tough as nails and has a stare that would terrify Chuck Norris.

Absolutely, and that scar on his neck only adds to his badass aura.

[tfk53]

[QUOTE=FerryFor50;799496]


What I had a problem with was the fact that Jah (and other Duke players) would draw contact on drives and not get the call. Kaminsky lowered his arms on shots several times and made contact and no whistle, as well as the aforementioned moving screens. Only foul on Kaminsky all night was the Jah bear hug, which, if we're going with letter of law, could have been called a flagrant 1.



Glad to see this mentioned. This was in no way a "basketball play" - not a play on the ball - clearly an attempt to mug Jah and prevent a basket. That should have been a Flagrant 1. You do that play on someone on a fast break - it gets called properly.

[devildeac]

[QUOTE=FerryFor50;799496]


What I had a problem with was the fact that Jah (and other Duke players) would draw contact on drives and not get the call. Kaminsky lowered his arms on shots several times and made contact and no whistle, as well as the aforementioned moving screens. Only foul on Kaminsky all night was the Jah bear hug, which, if we're going with letter of law, could have been called a flagrant 1.



Glad to see this mentioned. This was in no way a "basketball play" - not a play on the ball - clearly an attempt to mug Jah and prevent a basket. That should have been a Flagrant 1. You do that play on someone on a fast break - it gets called properly.

I'm not sure about an F1. Perhaps an intentional foul would have been a more appropriate call as I don't think he made any real attempt on the ball/shot and simply grabbed Jah. Ultimately, it would have about the same effect, I think, with 2 shots and possession.

[bjornolf]

I'm not sure about an F1. Perhaps an intentional foul would have been a more appropriate call as I don't think he made any real attempt on the ball/shot and simply grabbed Jah. Ultimately, it would have about the same effect, I think, with 2 shots and possession.

We had a similar one in the MSU game where the guy grabbed the back of Okafor's shirt from behind and stretched it out about two feet. How is that a play on the ball?

[rsvman]

It was a failed attempt at the Hack-a-for strategy.

Loved it! Hack-a-for doesn't fail because Okafor learns to shoot free throws, it fails because no matter how hard a foul you use in an attempt to stop him, he makes the field goal anyway! Brilliant.

[CDu]

We had a similar one in the MSU game where the guy grabbed the back of Okafor's shirt from behind and stretched it out about two feet. How is that a play on the ball?

In the olden days that was a technical foul (if you got caught of course; didn't stop folks from trying to get away with it).

[Highlander]

I'm not sure about an F1. Perhaps an intentional foul would have been a more appropriate call as I don't think he made any real attempt on the ball/shot and simply grabbed Jah. Ultimately, it would have about the same effect, I think, with 2 shots and possession.

IIRC, there is no such thing as an "intentional foul" in College Basketball. It's either a F1 or an F2.

[CDu]

IIRC, there is no such thing as an "intentional foul" in College Basketball. It's either a F1 or an F2.

I believe you are correct.

[gurufrisbee]

Here are 5 simple questions to ask anyone wanting to whine about the officiating:
1) Which team shot a better percentage from the field, from 3 point range, and from the free throw line?
2) Which team had more steals, more blocks, and the same number of turnovers even though the other team led the nation during the season in having the fewest turnovers every game?
3) Which team was settling for jump shots and which was being aggressive and driving on defenders who were slower and incapable of staying with them without fouling?
4) If you take the two intentional fouls to extend the game at the end, what was the difference in fouls by teams for the game? (hint: ZERO)
5) Which team had their top scorer have to sit for big stretches in BOTH halves and maybe their second best player have to sit in the first half?
Now look at those answers and think about whether the truth is that the officiating was uneven or if the better team just WAS BETTER!

[-bdbd]

[QUOTE=FerryFor50;799496]


What I had a problem with was the fact that Jah (and other Duke players) would draw contact on drives and not get the call. Kaminsky lowered his arms on shots several times and made contact and no whistle, as well as the aforementioned moving screens. Only foul on Kaminsky all night was the Jah bear hug, which, if we're going with letter of law, could have been called a flagrant 1.



Glad to see this mentioned. This was in no way a "basketball play" - not a play on the ball - clearly an attempt to mug Jah and prevent a basket. That should have been a Flagrant 1. You do that play on someone on a fast break - it gets called properly.

Also, Jah had a bad shooting night overall. I noted it to friends during the game that every time he moved across the lane for one of his "baby hook" or scoop shots he was getting severely bumped. EVERY time. I thought that was key to him missing several close-in (less than 5') shots, and probably led to several other pass-outs as he shied away a little once he started missing. Call those tighter and Kaminsky is ALSO sitting at the end of the first half (like Jah was) with foul trouble.

My suspicion about the Justise "finger tip" call was that it had more to do with the fact that the real-time call went in Duke's favor, and while he might have grazed it, the angles I saw were NOT conclusive (not even a clear change in the spin of the ball) - and the refs simply didn't feel it was clear enough to over-rule the real-time call. On the Winslow "foot on the line" non-call there's two thoughts: (1) The refs were more focused on/watching the mugging that was going on under the bucket and simply didn't see it - it WAS just a flash on the side of his foot - and, (2) As a paid ref for a couple of youth sports, I can say that there is a tendency to try to balance things out - so if a defensive player semi-fouls someone and the ball (or foot) goes out of bounds, the "compromise" call is, while not wanting to call the semi-foul, you can just give the resultant possession to the "semi-fouled" player (e.g. call the ball out of bounds off the defender who caused it, even though he might not have actually had the last ball touch). In the Duke game, it was pretty obvious that the WI player was riding Winslow out of bounds.

One of the axioms of basketball is that early calls are more important than late calls, b/c the can color the rest of the game. Witness early calls against Jah and Justise, which cost the a boatload on minutes. Also, some fouls are more important than others - if Duke had all of its 1H fouls called on Plum, Amile and Grayson, I really doubt that we'd have been nearly as frustrated/concerned as the fact that they were concentrating on some of our key guys - Jah, Justise and Cook.

[JetpackJesus]

[QUOTE=tfk53;799565]


My suspicion about the Justise "finger tip" call was that it had more to do with the fact that the real-time call went in Duke's favor, and while he might have grazed it, the angles I saw were NOT conclusive (not even a clear change in the spin of the ball) - and the refs simply didn't feel it was clear enough to over-rule the real-time call. On the Winslow "foot on the line" non-call there's two thoughts: (1) The refs were more focused on/watching the mugging that was going on under the bucket and simply didn't see it - it WAS just a flash on the side of his foot - and, (2) As a paid ref for a couple of youth sports, I can say that there is a tendency to try to balance things out - so if a defensive player semi-fouls someone and the ball (or foot) goes out of bounds, the "compromise" call is, while not wanting to call the semi-foul, you can just give the resultant possession to the "semi-fouled" player (e.g. call the ball out of bounds off the defender who caused it, even though he might not have actually had the last ball touch). In the Duke game, it was pretty obvious that the WI player was riding Winslow out of bounds.

Interestingly enough, the officials didn't actually see the conclusive angle everyone is pointing to today. (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/12640009/ncaa-official-refs-see-tv-broadcast-view-bounds-video-replay) I'm not losing much sleep over either missed OOB call because the refs totally missed the very obvious fouls that caused the ball/Winsolow's foot to go out in the first place.

I've also been surprised how many people have also called the Dekker foul on Tyus questionable (the one where he ran head first into his shot). I can't conceive of a world where that isn't a clear-cut foul.

[FerryFor50]

[QUOTE=tfk53;799565]

Also, Jah had a bad shooting night overall. I noted it to friends during the game that every time he moved across the lane for one of his "baby hook" or scoop shots he was getting severely bumped. EVERY time. I thought that was key to him missing several close-in (less than 5') shots, and probably led to several other pass-outs as he shied away a little once he started missing. Call those tighter and Kaminsky is ALSO sitting at the end of the first half (like Jah was) with foul trouble.

My suspicion about the Justise "finger tip" call was that it had more to do with the fact that the real-time call went in Duke's favor, and while he might have grazed it, the angles I saw were NOT conclusive (not even a clear change in the spin of the ball) - and the refs simply didn't feel it was clear enough to over-rule the real-time call. On the Winslow "foot on the line" non-call there's two thoughts: (1) The refs were more focused on/watching the mugging that was going on under the bucket and simply didn't see it - it WAS just a flash on the side of his foot - and, (2) As a paid ref for a couple of youth sports, I can say that there is a tendency to try to balance things out - so if a defensive player semi-fouls someone and the ball (or foot) goes out of bounds, the "compromise" call is, while not wanting to call the semi-foul, you can just give the resultant possession to the "semi-fouled" player (e.g. call the ball out of bounds off the defender who caused it, even though he might not have actually had the last ball touch). In the Duke game, it was pretty obvious that the WI player was riding Winslow out of bounds.

One of the axioms of basketball is that early calls are more important than late calls, b/c the can color the rest of the game. Witness early calls against Jah and Justise, which cost the a boatload on minutes. Also, some fouls are more important than others - if Duke had all of its 1H fouls called on Plum, Amile and Grayson, I really doubt that we'd have been nearly as frustrated/concerned as the fact that they were concentrating on some of our key guys - Jah, Justise and Cook.

I think 10-2 is 10-2, regardless of who the fouls are called on. But yes, it would have made a much better story for us if it was the role players rather than the key guys.

I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but the Jah bumps... that is Wisconsin defense. They keep arms up and the chest high.... and ride the player all the way to the basket. That's a foul every time in most cases.

Arms up, except on the Winslow "foot out of bounds" play... then it was "forearm in back":

4995

Hayes rode Winslow all the way, pushing him towards the baseline.

One interesting photo I found was one that apparently was caught with Winslow's finger on the ball:

4996

I think most people agree that he touched it last. But I still don't get why they are omitting the mugging that he took from 6'4" Bronson Koenig to knock it loose to begin with? (Rhetorical question. We all know why they aren't mentioning it.)

[gurufrisbee]

I'd love to hear someone ask Ryan why he offered a spot to Kevan Looney, who instead went to UCLA and already declared for the draft because everyone knew all along he was going to.

[_Gary]

It's really frustrating that ever since 2001 (thanks Billy boy), every Duke title comes with the obligatory "Duke gets all the calls" whining by either the opposing coach, the announcers, or the after-game commentators. It just really stinks that this is the national narrative, to the point that it's mentioned on national news (not sports news - regular news) casts. Unbelievable!

I don't give Bo any pass at all for his outrageously petty comments after the game. And to be honest, Tom came close to doing the same thing after the semi-final game. It's my belief that the media has successfully created a caricature of Duke and the officials to the point that it's just a default attitude for opposing coaches and players to complain after a Duke win. Sad that this has held on for almost 15 years now since Packer's infamous remarks.

[Duke95]

It doesn't bother me one bit. Look what happened yesterday. K adjusted to the game. Ryan kept complaining about the refs. We ended up winning.

Of course, Ryan didn't say a word about the refs when the shot clock call benefited his team.

[cspan37421]

[QUOTE=-bdbd;799618]

I think most people agree that he touched it last. But I still don't get why they are omitting the mugging that he took from 6'4" Bronson Koenig to knock it loose to begin with? (Rhetorical question. We all know why they aren't mentioning it.)

Sorry to mess with "our" narrative, but isn't it the case that a missed ordinary foul is not reviewable, whereas "who touched it last before it went out of bounds" is, within the last 2 min?

In any case, news reports I've seen say that the refs didn't have access to the most "damning" angle that viewers did ... thus nothing conclusive they saw to overrule.

My feeling is that if they want to talk about a missed call, you corral them and say "let's put all the calls and no-calls on the table, then. Got a few hours? Let's analyze the game thoroughly." My prediction is you'll get NO takers.

Look, they see bad calls that helped us; we see bad calls that hurt us. It will ever be that way.

[Les Grossman]

While watching the re-run of the game this evening, it dawned on me that Bo Ryan looks an awful lot like Mo Szyslak. With approximately the same people skills.

[DukieInKansas]

It's really frustrating that ever since 2001 (thanks Billy boy), every Duke title comes with the obligatory "Duke gets all the calls" whining by either the opposing coach, the announcers, or the after-game commentators. It just really stinks that this is the national narrative, to the point that it's mentioned on national news (not sports news - regular news) casts. Unbelievable!

I don't give Bo any pass at all for his outrageously petty comments after the game. And to be honest, Tom came close to doing the same thing after the semi-final game. It's my belief that the media has successfully created a caricature of Duke and the officials to the point that it's just a default attitude for opposing coaches and players to complain after a Duke win. Sad that this has held on for almost 15 years now since Packer's infamous remarks.

Sports talk radio in the Kansas City area wasn't buying the Duke gets all the calls for this game. They were calling out Bo for his comments.

[Danke Shane]

Also, if you missed today's First Take on ESPN, you can listen to the podcast version. Both Skip Bayless and S.A. Smith level Bo Ryan for his comments...

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/feature/index?page=firsttake

[MaxAMillion]

It's really frustrating that ever since 2001 (thanks Billy boy), every Duke title comes with the obligatory "Duke gets all the calls" whining by either the opposing coach, the announcers, or the after-game commentators. It just really stinks that this is the national narrative, to the point that it's mentioned on national news (not sports news - regular news) casts. Unbelievable!

I don't give Bo any pass at all for his outrageously petty comments after the game. And to be honest, Tom came close to doing the same thing after the semi-final game. It's my belief that the media has successfully created a caricature of Duke and the officials to the point that it's just a default attitude for opposing coaches and players to complain after a Duke win. Sad that this has held on for almost 15 years now since Packer's infamous remarks.

I heard plenty of people come out and say that Ryan was wrong for his post game comments. Look, people are sick of seeing Duke win all the time. You will always have Duke as the most hated team and plenty of people will try to claim conspiracy as a way of dealing with all of Duke's success. If it makes you feel better, very few people hate the Duke football team.

I will take being hated over being the mediocre program that no one cares about.

[neemizzle]

Also, if you missed today's First Take on ESPN, you can listen to the podcast version. Both Skip Bayless and S.A. Smith level Bo Ryan for his comments...

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/feature/index?page=firsttake

I watched it just now, and I know people have tough times siding with Bayless or Smith on a lot of topics, but I side with them here.

[05dukie]

While watching the re-run of the game this evening, it dawned on me that Bo Ryan looks an awful lot like Mo Szyslak. With approximately the same people skills.

I've always thought he looks like the Grinch, esp as played by Jim Carrey!
4998

[FerryFor50]

I've always thought he looks like the Grinch, esp as played by Jim Carrey!
4998

I've always thought he looked like Skeletor.

4999

[_Gary]

I heard plenty of people come out and say that Ryan was wrong for his post game comments.

Don't get me wrong. I realize that this time around a lot of people called out the "Duke gets all the calls" whining. And that's great. What I was trying to say though, was that this issue has been talked about and pushed for so long now that it seems as if a lot of people just default to it any time Duke whens a big game. That's all I was saying. And it (specifically the Winslow finger touch) was mentioned in a national news cast just last night, which I thought was absolutely ridiculous. It just perpetuates the myth over and over again, and that to me is very sad.

[Highlander]

There was a growing sentiment from talk radio yesterday defending Bo Ryan's 1 and done comment as a comment exclusively about 5th year transfers. One of the talking heads in Charlotte even went far enough to call grad school transfers an "epidemic." While I know this happens a fair bit in football due to redshirts, the only bball grad school transfer I could come up with was Greg Paulus, and he got a 5th year to play a different sport. It got me to wondering how many Grad School transfers are there in the NCAA each year. The only website I could find with data was on ESPN, and unfortunately it was just a laundry list. Haven't found any "official" numbers for how many grad student transfers there are annually, and fair disclaimer that my analysis of this data is fairly rudimentary.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/10702122/tracking-every-transfer-2014-offseason-college-basketball
http://www.scholarshipstats.com/basketball.htm

Crunching the #s a bit I found the following:
- Roughly 18,00 NCAA Men's Basketball athletes total in D1, D2 and D3 combined.
- Per the ESPN link there were 626 total transfers in 2014 NCAA. I don't think this is limited to just D1, but if so, adjust the # above to 5,485.
- 11 were noted as "will graduate," which I assume means they would be grad student transfers
- 13 additional are noted as either Redshirt Juniors or Seniors. They are most likely grad student transfers too.
- 174 additional are juniors who conceivably could graduate. They could be grad student transfers, or they could just be guys looking elsewhere for their senior seasons. Hard to say for sure.

According to the NCAA, roughly 1 in 5 NCAA men's basketball athletes will transfer before the end of their Sophomore year.

So I guess my conclusion is that if Bo Ryan was really only talking about grad school transfers and not one and done's, he picked an odd soapbox considering ~2-4% of all transfers are grad student/5th year guys, and (AFAIK) there were zero of these guys on any team in the Final Four. However, Wisconsin played two teams stocked full of one and done talent. I think he started to make a point about one and dones, and then threw the 5th year thing in to deflect a bit.

[CDu]

There was a growing sentiment from talk radio yesterday defending Bo Ryan's 1 and done comment as a comment exclusively about 5th year transfers. One of the talking heads in Charlotte even went far enough to call grad school transfers an "epidemic." While I know this happens a fair bit in football due to redshirts, the only bball grad school transfer I could come up with was Greg Paulus, and he got a 5th year to play a different sport. It got me to wondering how many Grad School transfers are there in the NCAA each year. The only website I could find with data was on ESPN, and unfortunately it was just a laundry list. Haven't found any "official" numbers for how many grad student transfers there are annually, and fair disclaimer that my analysis of this data is fairly rudimentary.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/10702122/tracking-every-transfer-2014-offseason-college-basketball
http://www.scholarshipstats.com/basketball.htm

Crunching the #s a bit I found the following:
- Roughly 18,00 NCAA Men's Basketball athletes total in D1, D2 and D3 combined.
- Per the ESPN link there were 626 total transfers in 2014 NCAA. I don't think this is limited to just D1, but if so, adjust the # above to 5,485.
- 11 were noted as "will graduate," which I assume means they would be grad student transfers
- 13 additional are noted as either Redshirt Juniors or Seniors. They are most likely grad student transfers too.
- 174 additional are juniors who conceivably could graduate. They could be grad student transfers, or they could just be guys looking elsewhere for their senior seasons. Hard to say for sure.

According to the NCAA, roughly 1 in 5 NCAA men's basketball athletes will transfer before the end of their Sophomore year.

So I guess my conclusion is that if Bo Ryan was really only talking about grad school transfers and not one and done's, he picked an odd soapbox considering ~2-4% of all transfers are grad student/5th year guys, and (AFAIK) there were zero of these guys on any team in the Final Four. However, Wisconsin played two teams stocked full of one and done talent. I think he started to make a point about one and dones, and then threw the 5th year thing in to deflect a bit.

I am pretty sure most people saw through the "grad transfer" argument. It seems pretty clear (given that Wisconsin had just played back to back teams relying heavily on one-and-done talent) that he was initially talking about one-and-dones. Otherwise, his comments make absolutely no sense, as hardly any of the elite teams have relied on grad transfers in making their deep tournament runs, and certainly none of the Final Four teams did so.

It's also absurd of him to whine about it since he has most certainly recruited one-and-done talent. He just hasn't succeeded in landed said one-and-done talent.

I think it's best to just accept his comments for what they appear to be: the lashing-out of a sore loser in the aftermath of a tough loss.

[gus]

I am pretty sure most people saw through the "grad transfer" argument. It seems pretty clear (given that Wisconsin had just played back to back teams relying heavily on one-and-done talent) that he was initially talking about one-and-dones. Otherwise, his comments make absolutely no sense, as hardly any of the elite teams have relied on grad transfers in making their deep tournament runs, and certainly none of the Final Four teams did so.

It's also absurd of him to whine about it since he has most certainly recruited one-and-done talent. He just hasn't succeeded in landed said one-and-done talent.

I think it's best to just accept his comments for what they appear to be: the lashing-out of a sore loser in the aftermath of a tough loss.

My question is... what is actually wrong with grad school transfers? A grad school transfer would be a player who has attained an undergraduate degree* with a year of eligibility remaining and is pursuing a masters at another institution. How is that a bad thing?


* maybe that's why Ryan thinks it's a bad thing: we fear the unfamiliar

[NancyCarol]

I'll get over it, but I won't forget it. Talking to some friends from Iowa apparently this is not the only time Bo has been verbally bitter. No one's perfect. He's a good coach, had a good team too bad the last look most folks will have of him is watching him eat a bunch of sour grapes all over national television.

[English]

My question is... what is actually wrong with grad school transfers? A grad school transfer would be a player who has attained an undergraduate degree* with a year of eligibility remaining and is pursuing a masters at another institution. How is that a bad thing?


* maybe that's why Ryan thinks it's a bad thing: we fear the unfamiliar

The grad student transfer rule, by design, is actually supposed to be even less of a tool for athletes/coaches to utilize for a rent-a-player, but instead to be used for a student-athlete to find exactly the grad program he/she desires. The rule allows a grad transfer immediate eligibility only if the institution at which he/she is currently enrolled does NOT have a specific grad program that the student-athlete wants to take. So, for example, if Tarik Black wants to complete his eligibility in basketball while taking a grad program in thermonuclear physics, but Memphis offers that grad program, he cannot transfer to Kansas for his fifth year while completing said same physics advanced degree. He'd have to find something Memphis doesn't offer that KU does.

Caveat: most/all of these fifth-year transfers miraculously want to complete grad courses of study that their current schools do not offer. Funny how that works.

[CDu]

My question is... what is actually wrong with grad school transfers? A grad school transfer would be a player who has attained an undergraduate degree* with a year of eligibility remaining and is pursuing a masters at another institution. How is that a bad thing?


* maybe that's why Ryan thinks it's a bad thing: we fear the unfamiliar

As others have said, I don't think the grad-transfer thing was what he was really talking about. I think that was just his after-the-fact cover for the thinly-veiled slap at the one-and-done.

However, the issue with the grad transfer is that I suspect many of these guys aren't really interested in graduate studies but rather are interested in playing another year of basketball somewhere else. Which, in that light, is very similar to a lot of the one-and-dones.


The grad student transfer rule, by design, is actually supposed to be even less of a tool for athletes/coaches to utilize for a rent-a-player, but instead to be used for a student-athlete to find exactly the grad program he/she desires. The rule allows a grad transfer immediate eligibility only if the institution at which he/she is currently enrolled does NOT have a specific grad program that the student-athlete wants to take. So, for example, if Tarik Black wants to complete his eligibility in basketball while taking a grad program in thermonuclear physics, but Memphis offers that grad program, he cannot transfer to Kansas for his fifth year while completing said same physics advanced degree. He'd have to find something Memphis doesn't offer that KU does.

Caveat: most/all of these fifth-year transfers miraculously want to complete grad courses of study that their current schools do not offer. Funny how that works.

Right. The rules are designed in such a way as to attempt to suggest that the transfer is not a basketball-related move. But in reality, I'm basically 100% sure that none (or at least VERY few) of the major college grad transfers are doing so because of the grad program they attend at their future school. I suspect that it becomes a matter of "I want to go to School X - what program do they have that I could enroll in for a year that I can't do at my school?"

That, of course, creates some shadiness academically, as it is at odds with the idea of graduate education. See the UNC cases, where a player enrolled in a program and then never showed for classes. Obviously UNC is a special case here, but I'm sure there are plenty of programs that consider this to be shenanigans.

[Troublemaker]

Coach K responds: http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/12645771/duke-blue-devils-coach-mike-krzyzewski-fires-back-wisconsin-badgers-coach-bo-ryan-rent-player-dig

"I know as a coach, you're the first guy up there when you lose -- I've lost national championship games, I've been the loser," Krzyzewski said on ESPN Radio's The Herd with Colin Cowherd. "It's never easy. You can take one line out or a couple lines out without context. The line 'rent-a-player' is not a good line because -- use 'one-and-done' - 'rent' could mean you're doing something illegal. There is a better choice of words for that. If you say, you don't do the one-and-done in your program, that's your right. But understand that everybody does it differently."

[rifraf]

The grad student transfer rule, by design, is actually supposed to be even less of a tool for athletes/coaches to utilize for a rent-a-player, but instead to be used for a student-athlete to find exactly the grad program he/she desires. The rule allows a grad transfer immediate eligibility only if the institution at which he/she is currently enrolled does NOT have a specific grad program that the student-athlete wants to take. So, for example, if Tarik Black wants to complete his eligibility in basketball while taking a grad program in thermonuclear physics, but Memphis offers that grad program, he cannot transfer to Kansas for his fifth year while completing said same physics advanced degree. He'd have to find something Memphis doesn't offer that KU does.

Caveat: most/all of these fifth-year transfers miraculously want to complete grad courses of study that their current schools do not offer. Funny how that works.

You know, if it's about the student and the education, why not grant a 5th year of eligibility to the same school if they want to stay for grad school?

[Troublemaker]

Another Coach K response (better one) this time with Charlie Rose: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/duke-coach-k-mike-krzyzewski-duke-doesnt-rent-a-player-wisconsin-bo-ryan-comment/

"Duke doesn't rent a player," Krzyzewski said Tuesday on "CBS This Morning. "We have one of the great schools in the world, and when we recruit a young man, we recruit a young man because of three things: One, he has the academic potential to do well at Duke; two, he has the talent to do well; and three, he has great character. All the guys on my team fit that description 100 percent."

"In today's world you have to adapt to what's happening. Throughout college, there are many kids who don't go even the whole four years because of opportunities, business opportunities that are available, and they're not just athletes. And so if the opportunity arises for a youngster to leave early from school, whether he's an athlete or she's an athlete or not, it's their opportunity to pursue it," Krzyzewski said. "So I think we're living in the dark ages when we say that it should only be done one way."

[TNTDevil]

With all due respect, Bo has always reminded me of a chicken-
5004
5003

[tbyers11]

Another Coach K response (better one) this time with Charlie Rose: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/duke-coach-k-mike-krzyzewski-duke-doesnt-rent-a-player-wisconsin-bo-ryan-comment/

"Duke doesn't rent a player," Krzyzewski said Tuesday on "CBS This Morning. "We have one of the great schools in the world, and when we recruit a young man, we recruit a young man because of three things: One, he has the academic potential to do well at Duke; two, he has the talent to do well; and three, he has great character. All the guys on my team fit that description 100 percent."

"In today's world you have to adapt to what's happening. Throughout college, there are many kids who don't go even the whole four years because of opportunities, business opportunities that are available, and they're not just athletes. And so if the opportunity arises for a youngster to leave early from school, whether he's an athlete or she's an athlete or not, it's their opportunity to pursue it," Krzyzewski said. "So I think we're living in the dark ages when we say that it should only be done one way."

Can't spork you right now, but thanks for this link. Despite my near-obsessive combing of the interwebs since we won, I hadn't seen this one.

[phaedrus]

Saw Miles Plumlee getting lunch in downtown Milwaukee today and no one booed him, so safe to say the hard feelings have subsided.

[Mal]

Saw Miles Plumlee getting lunch in downtown Milwaukee today and no one booed him, so safe to say the hard feelings have subsided.

Not on the interwebs, they haven't. The carping about biased referees, K working his dark magic of intimidation/persuasion, CBS/NCAA conspiracies, and much much more continues apace nearly 48 hours after the event. Apparently, the missed fingertip out of bounds call is the greatest travesty in the history of Sport. Also, I was not aware while watching the game, but evidently Grayson flails his arms wildly and throws 'bows into his defenders' faces every time he goes up for a shot. And, did you know that it was patently obvious to anyone who's not a complete moron, even as they watched it at full speed, that Justice's finger bent halfway back on that play? Or that he and Allen put their heads down and rammed at least two Badgers on every drive? Given all of this, you'll no doubt not be surprised that, while the refs reviewed that tipped ball play on Jim Nantz's monitor, supported by the entire CBS Sports production team, they decided that it was too risky to let Wisconsin have a chance to get back in the game, because they would be jeopardizing their chances of getting selected to officiate USA Basketball games in doing so.

Oh, internet. Never change. We love you.

[MartyClark]

I officially forgive Bo. I'm sure this matters to him so, if you know him, tell him that he and I are okay.

I think the disappointment of losing a close game probably overcame his ability to be gracious. I am always impressed with Coach K's ability, win or lose, regardless of the circumstances, to say something that is respectful about the opponent or the game.

[Highlander]

I am pretty sure most people saw through the "grad transfer" argument. It seems pretty clear (given that Wisconsin had just played back to back teams relying heavily on one-and-done talent) that he was initially talking about one-and-dones. Otherwise, his comments make absolutely no sense, as hardly any of the elite teams have relied on grad transfers in making their deep tournament runs, and certainly none of the Final Four teams did so.

It's also absurd of him to whine about it since he has most certainly recruited one-and-done talent. He just hasn't succeeded in landed said one-and-done talent.

I think it's best to just accept his comments for what they appear to be: the lashing-out of a sore loser in the aftermath of a tough loss.

I agree that is how most people took it, and I agree if he meant it that way it is hypocritical. I do think that the contrarians have a point, however. Ryan didn't actually say anything about one and done players, and it is possible we're reading the narrative into his comments that we would rather believe. Ultimately we have to take him on what he said, not what we think he meant.

That being said, I wanted to show that there's no real factual or contextual basis for what he's talking about in MBB, so I agree Bo's point as stated is pretty nonsensical either way you take it.

[Mal]

I think the disappointment of losing a close game probably overcame his ability to be gracious.

He's 67 years old (I think). If he hasn't learned how to act appropriately in defeat at this point, no matter the game or stage, I'm left with the impression that his ability to be gracious in defeat is rather weak and easily overwhelmed. His documented history of acting this way would seem to support that impression. I'm of the mind that this isn't the biggest deal in the world, and he's not Bobby Knight or anything, but I'm not willing to just overlook this as a "heat of the moment" indiscretion that he probably felt badly about the second it left his mouth. I haven't seen an apology, and I still haven't seen a compliment from him toward our team. He's had two days to clarify his words and has not taken the opportunity, so far as I can tell.

I would forgive him, too, but I don't really think there's anything to forgive. He hasn't done me any harm. His character as revealed just makes me think less of him than I might have otherwise.

[Duvall]

I officially forgive Bo. I'm sure this matters to him so, if you know him, tell him that he and I are okay.

I think the disappointment of losing a close game probably overcame his ability to be gracious. I am always impressed with Coach K's ability, win or lose, regardless of the circumstances, to say something that is respectful about the opponent or the game.

But again, it's not just Mike Krzyzewski. The NCAA Tournament is a postseason competition with 67 losers and only one winner each year, and yet you just don't see any of those dozens of losers acting out like this. If it were hard to be gracious, why would most coaches be able to manage it with regularity?

[kshoeduke]

I'm not sure of anybody mentioned this fact. Wisconsin did offer a scholarship to Cliff Alexander, who is clearly a one and done player. That makes Bo Ryan a hypocrite.

[CDu]

I agree that is how most people took it, and I agree if he meant it that way it is hypocritical. I do think that the contrarians have a point, however. Ryan didn't actually say anything about one and done players, and it is possible we're reading the narrative into his comments that we would rather believe. Ultimately we have to take him on what he said, not what we think he meant.

That being said, I wanted to show that there's no real factual or contextual basis for what he's talking about in MBB, so I agree Bo's point as stated is pretty nonsensical either way you take it.

Right: he is either being hypocritical or he is simply making absolutely no sense. Either way, it's just his bitterness coming out.

[EKU1969]

You can take "rent a player" in any number of ways. If you want to believe the Grad Student argument, you are welcome to do so, my take on this was Okafor, Winslow, and T Jones being OAD's. Coach Ryan is pushing an issue he has a hand in on. Prove Duke or even Kentucky paid any player to play or appoligize for your inane comments!

[OldPhiKap]

I wonder how many talking heads actually watched the press conference.

Bo was clearly talking about bringing kids through the program as opposed to fifth-year grad kids who can transfer and play immediately for a year. His comment was not directed at Duke, or Kentucky, or one-and-dones.

The griping about fouls, however, was classless. But that is a separate issue.

[Henderson]

I wonder how many talking heads actually watched the press conference.
Bo was clearly talking about bringing kids through the program as opposed to fifth-year grad kids who can transfer and play immediately for a year. His comment was not directed at Duke, or Kentucky, or one-and-dones.


He did reference 5th year players specifically as an example, but in this context, where his team didn't face any such players, had just lost to a team with one-and-dones, and was talking about the game he'd just played, why do you think he was "clearly" not referring to freshman NBA talent on the opposing team he'd just played?

I watched the presser, and I could buy "plausible deniability." But that's as far as I'd go.

Notice he also didn't clearly call out the refs (pointedly so), but called out the refs.

[Duke95]

I wonder how many talking heads actually watched the press conference.

Bo was clearly talking about bringing kids through the program as opposed to fifth-year grad kids who can transfer and play immediately for a year. His comment was not directed at Duke, or Kentucky, or one-and-dones.

The griping about fouls, however, was classless. But that is a separate issue.

I don't agree. Why bring up 5th year kids? To whom was he referring? Not Duke. Kentucky? Who else?

He was referring to OAD, realized that what he was saying was hypocritical, then added the 5th year comment as a cover.

Bo Ryan was angry that he lost his chance to win a title and wanted to throw wild punches. He wanted to blame somebody, anybody other than himself or his team. I get that.
When he gets finished blaming us, I do hope he has the decency to return the shoe that Coach K left in his rear.

[Atlanta Duke]

No direct questions about the Bo Ryan shot on "rent a player" in today's April 8 K presser, but he is asked around the 15:45 mark about any change in philosophy in "embracing freshmen."

K says that Duke has always sought the best players, once Duke could (and in the case of Johnny Dawkins when it couldn't), who fit the profile to help the team.

K also gets off this line

"I have always embraced freshmen. I embraced Tommy Amaker the most. He saved my job."

http://www.goduke.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&db_oem_id=4200

[OldPhiKap]

He did reference 5th year players specifically as an example, but in this context, where his team didn't face any such players, had just lost to a team with one-and-dones, and was talking about the game he'd just played, why do you think he was "clearly" not referring to freshman NBA talent on the opposing team he'd just played?

I watched the presser, and I could buy "plausible deniability." But that's as far as I'd go.

Notice he also didn't clearly call out the refs (pointedly so), but called out the refs.


I don't agree. Why bring up 5th year kids? To whom was he referring? Not Duke. Kentucky? Who else?

He was referring to OAD, realized that what he was saying was hypocritical, then added the 5th year comment as a cover.

Bo Ryan was angry that he lost his chance to win a title and wanted to throw wild punches. He wanted to blame somebody, anybody other than himself or his team. I get that.
When he gets finished blaming us, I do hope he has the decency to return the shoe that Coach K left in his rear.

Pretty sure he was talking about the fact that his kids came through the program, didn't transfer in as a hired gun for a year.

[BD80]

Bo said: "we don't do rent a player"

He meant: "We haven't been able yet to recruit anyone that talented"

[Newton_14]

Guys, come on. He was speaking directly to One and Done, and he quickly caught himself and threw in the 5th year Sr thing. Don't just read his comments. Listen to the presser. It is plain as day.

Never in all my years of watching sports have I seen this level of poor sportsmanship. Looking at his comments and not one single compliment for K or the Duke team in 48 hours, I am actually kind of shocked he actually shook hands with K after the game.

Even worse, he went into that lockeroom full of 18-22 year olds and apparently used similar inflammatory commentary which led to the kids embracing the poor sportsmanship. In my opinion that is horrible leadership, and it gives the young players in that room the mindset that when you lose a game it is ok to not congratulate the other team and it is ok to make excuses and blame the refs, instead of looking in the mirror.

The refs did not cause Dekker to miss all of his outside shots and airball two of his 3 pointers. The refs did not cause Wisc to settle for contested jumpshots, going away from their normal offense. The refs did not stop Ryan from calling timeouts to give his exhausted players much needed rest, and make in game adjustments. The refs did not make any of the shots down the stretch for Grayson or Tyus. The refs did not cause Hayes to inexplicably foul Tyus in a one possession game with 47 seconds left. The refs did not cause Wisc to totally mismanage the last 2 minutes of the game, especially the last minute of the game. They had the ball down 5 with 40+ seconds left to go in the game. They did not rush the ball up the court to set up a quick hitting 3 pointer, nor did they rush the ball up the court and drive it right at the hoop forcing Duke to concede the 2 points or risk fouling. They wasted well over 25-30 seconds of the final minute of the game, dribbling up the court and on the perimeter and passing it around from player to player on the perimeter. I could not believe they fouled Tyus, down only 3 with 47 seconds left and after that I could not believe they did not drive hard to the hoop or set up a quick hitting 3. They made the final 47 seconds very easy for Duke to protect the lead. It was inexplicable. Their coach failed them at the most critical point of their careers. Then he filled their minds after the game with very inmature and boorish thoughts.

We will never know, but I am convinced that had the refs overturned the call and give them the ball instead of Duke, when they were already down 5 points, they would not have scored and the Tyus 3 would have still put them 8 points down. They were lost on offense at that point.

I became a fan of this Wisc team last year in the Final Four and I pulled for them in every tourney game even though I knew they were good enough to take us out. They were fun to watch. I will never again pull for them in any game against any opponent as long as Bo Ryan is their coach.

To top it off and show his real hypocrisy, we learned this week that he only graduates 36% of his players on the whole and he graduates 0% of his African-American kids. He should be fired based on those facts alone. It's despicable. I hope they lose every game and never get another good recruit with Ryan at the helm.

[roywhite]

Nice rant by Newton_14. Just one thing to add:

After watching the replay several times, Wisconsin NEVER adjusted to Tyus Jones coming off the high ball screen, and that was absolutely crucial to the outcome of the game. Tyus got clean drives or clear passing lanes or open jump shots. It really resembled our confusion with how to defend Rodriquez from Miami in January, but this was a very experienced Wisconsin team playing in the national finals.

Maybe Bo should have addressed that during the timeouts instead of mugging for the refs.

[g-money]

Guys, come on. He was speaking directly to One and Done, and he quickly caught himself and threw in the 5th year Sr thing. Don't just read his comments. Listen to the presser. It is plain as day.

Never in all my years of watching sports have I seen this level of poor sportsmanship. Looking at his comments and not one single compliment for K or the Duke team in 48 hours, I am actually kind of shocked he actually shook hands with K after the game.

Even worse, he went into that lockeroom full of 18-22 year olds and apparently used similar inflammatory commentary which led to the kids embracing the poor sportsmanship. In my opinion that is horrible leadership, and it gives the young players in that room the mindset that when you lose a game it is ok to not congratulate the other team and it is ok to make excuses and blame the refs, instead of looking in the mirror.

The refs did not cause Dekker to miss all of his outside shots and airball two of his 3 pointers. The refs did not cause Wisc to settle for contested jumpshots, going away from their normal offense. The refs did not stop Ryan from calling timeouts to give his exhausted players much needed rest, and make in game adjustments. The refs did not make any of the shots down the stretch for Grayson or Tyus. The refs did not cause Hayes to inexplicably foul Tyus in a one possession game with 47 seconds left. The refs did not cause Wisc to totally mismanage the last 2 minutes of the game, especially the last minute of the game. They had the ball down 5 with 40+ seconds left to go in the game. They did not rush the ball up the court to set up a quick hitting 3 pointer, nor did they rush the ball up the court and drive it right at the hoop forcing Duke to concede the 2 points or risk fouling. They wasted well over 25-30 seconds of the final minute of the game, dribbling up the court and on the perimeter and passing it around from player to player on the perimeter. I could not believe they fouled Tyus, down only 3 with 47 seconds left and after that I could not believe they did not drive hard to the hoop or set up a quick hitting 3. They made the final 47 seconds very easy for Duke to protect the lead. It was inexplicable. Their coach failed them at the most critical point of their careers. Then he filled their minds after the game with very inmature and boorish thoughts.

We will never know, but I am convinced that had the refs overturned the call and give them the ball instead of Duke, when they were already down 5 points, they would not have scored and the Tyus 3 would have still put them 8 points down. They were lost on offense at that point.

I became a fan of this Wisc team last year in the Final Four and I pulled for them in every tourney game even though I knew they were good enough to take us out. They were fun to watch. I will never again pull for them in any game against any opponent as long as Bo Ryan is their coach.

To top it off and show his real hypocrisy, we learned this week that he only graduates 36% of his players on the whole and he graduates 0% of his African-American kids. He should be fired based on those facts alone. It's despicable. I hope they lose every game and never get another good recruit with Ryan at the helm.

Amen!!

(I thought about cutting down my quote of your post a bit, but then decided it was too perfect an argument to modify in any way, shape or form. :))

Btw, WE ARE THE CHAMPIONS, MY FRIENDS. How awesome is that? Just when it looked like the game was lost, our 8th man "rent-a-player" blew Bo's boys right out of the water.

[jimsumner]

I'm not sure of anybody mentioned this fact. Wisconsin did offer a scholarship to Cliff Alexander, who is clearly a one and done player. That makes Bo Ryan a hypocrite.

He also was a major player for Kevon Looney.

[English]

He also was a major player for Kevon Looney.

And, as already mentioned, he heavily recruited Henry Ellenson and Diamond Stone in the current class. He was literally recruiting OADs during the season in which these seniors were rising through his program rather than being rent-a-players. The fifth-year grad deflection makes absolutely no sense to me, either--the weirdest throwaway line I've seen in recent memory.

[OldPhiKap]

And, as already mentioned, he heavily recruited Henry Ellenson and Diamond Stone in the current class. He was literally recruiting OADs during the season in which these seniors were rising through his program rather than being rent-a-players. The fifth-year grad deflection makes absolutely no sense to me, either--the weirdest throwaway line I've seen in recent memory.

I am obviously in the minority, but I think this is exactly what we was talking about and not OAD after actually watching the press conference. He made the statement in the context that his kids all came through the program -- not that some might leave early.

Anyway, I hate that Bo's comments have taken a lot of the post-game focus. We won, he's sucking sour grapes. Next play. New banner!

[Duke95]

All this talk as to whether Bo meant OAD or taking a 5th year player...

What's the difference? None. He's talking about bringing players into the program that stay for one year. He says he doesn't do that (because he tried and failed - Sisyphus doesn't put boulders on top of hills either. He's just doesn't do that.)

If you're going to use that line, at least graduate your players, Bo. Leave them with something other than those pleasant memories of watching you fail to adjust to in-game situations.

[English]

You know, if it's about the student and the education, why not grant a 5th year of eligibility to the same school if they want to stay for grad school?

One (off-topic) point of clarification: the fifth-year grad transfer year is NOT a fifth year of athletic eligibility granted to the player because he/she wants to complete a grad program at another school. This is his/her fourth year of eligibility (typically because of a previous athletic or medical redshirt year, making it a fifth year of college) that the player chooses to spend at another school. He/she has graduated with the requisite number of credits to obtain an undergraduate degree, so the NCAA allows the student to transfer and be immediately eligible to compete should the student wish to take a grad course of study not offered at their initial institution.

By all means, that same student-athlete could complete that fifth year (of college, not of eligibility) at his/her original school (see: Dawkins, Andre; Plumlee, Marshall).

I realize that your point is that this system is not actually about the student and his/her education, and you'll get no quibble from me about the application (in most cases) of this rule. The spirit of the rule seems to support the right of a student-athlete to find exactly the grad program that he/she wants without sacrificing the opportunity to complete four years of athletic eligibility should his/her original school not offer the grad program.

Now back to your originally scheduled program, already in progress.

[SoCalDukeFan]

I am obviously in the minority, but I think this is exactly what we was talking about and not OAD after actually watching the press conference. He made the statement in the context that his kids all came through the program -- not that some might leave early.

Anyway, I hate that Bo's comments have taken a lot of the post-game focus. We won, he's sucking sour grapes. Next play. New banner!

and Russell Wilson who graduated from NC State and then played one year at U. of Wisconsin where he led the Badgers to a Big 10 Championship.

SoCal

[rifraf]

One (off-topic) point of clarification: the fifth-year grad transfer year is NOT a fifth year of athletic eligibility granted to the player because he/she wants to complete a grad program at another school. This is his/her fourth year of eligibility (typically because of a previous athletic or medical redshirt year, making it a fifth year of college) that the player chooses to spend at another school. He/she has graduated with the requisite number of credits to obtain an undergraduate degree, so the NCAA allows the student to transfer and be immediately eligible to compete should the student wish to take a grad course of study not offered at their initial institution.

By all means, that same student-athlete could complete that fifth year (of college, not of eligibility) at his/her original school (see: Dawkins, Andre; Plumlee, Marshall).


Ah, this clarifies things immensely, thank you.

[Richard Berg]

How many 5th-year grad transfers actually receive a graduate degree? I'm betting <20%.

[gus]

How many 5th-year grad transfers actually receive a graduate degree? I'm betting <20%.

Googling to try to figure this out (I bet more than 20%), I found this article:
http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/story/2012-05-15/grad-transfer-rule-should-be-celebrated-not-blasted-by-coaches-such-as-tom-izzo-

Ryan has been complaining about graduate transfers for years. Maybe he really wasn't complaining about OAD, and was just falling back on his old material.

[toooskies]

The thing I haven't seen mentioned:

The national championship is always, always a slugfest. The refs never call the game tightly. Bo explicitly said it was a shame the game had to be played that way-- but I have to say, this is the game that most resembled basketball that I've seen in a championship game since... at least before 2010. He's awfully lucky to not have had to face a Brad Stevens Butler team. It's as if he didn't prepare his team to play for the championship.

Second: the refs have given Tyus Jones the calls he got in the championship game, every single game of the year. He has a talent for drawing contact the same way James Harden does. If you haven't scouted him and noticed that (even though you played him in the regular season in your stadium and got more FT attempts there!), then you didn't prepare your players well for the opponent.

And, I agree with the above posters who said that Wisconsin played an awful last minute of basketball. Sure, your offense depends on passing, finding the best shot it can in the whole 35-second clock. Guess what? You need to be able to get a quick shot off when you're down more than a possession in the last minute. Against an all-guard or 1 big + 4 guard line-up, you need to run a post-up play because passing/cutting won't get anybody very open. Your NPOY needs to take the ball and score it. But you weren't prepared to do that.

Then there's the charge/block calls, which anyone who has watched college basketball this year would tell you is called incorrectly at least 50% of the time.

So, overall, Bo's team wasn't ready for the game situation, the team they were playing, college basketball refereeing in general, or the particular end-of-game scenario they found themselves in. If the team is properly prepared for any of these, Wisconsin may win (or at least has an argument that the specific missed calls were the difference in winning and losing).

And yet, all the articles I've seen which claim Coach K outcoached Bo claim that he somehow convinced the best refs in the country, in front of a largely pro-Wisconsin crowd, to suddenly give Duke all the calls. He would have to be the most persuasive person no the planet. When in fact, his out-coaching was finding out Amile could guard Kaminsky better that Jah; giving Grayson an opportunity to succeed on the biggest stage; keeping the team together even when down 9; keeping Jah mentally in the game to make a few key baskets down the stretch, despite his worst game of the year; shutting down Dekker defensively; or winning a game where only freshmen score all the second half points!

I also have little respect for the Wisconsin player who clocked Grayson Allen in the head on a drive and was astounded that the refs called a foul. (It was either Koenig or Dukan.) Forget after the game, he was whining before the final buzzer went off.

[COYS]

Googling to try to figure this out (I bet more than 20%), I found this article:
http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/story/2012-05-15/grad-transfer-rule-should-be-celebrated-not-blasted-by-coaches-such-as-tom-izzo-

Ryan has been complaining about graduate transfers for years. Maybe he really wasn't complaining about OAD, and was just falling back on his old material.

Am I mistaken, or was it Bo Ryan who also was preventing one of his players from transferring a few years back? Or maybe he did something even more annoying like give the kid a list of schools he would "allow" him to transfer to. I remember thinking at the time that it was an insight into how that coach really ran his program and viewed his players . . . as if the players "owed" him something regardless of what the player and his family felt was best for him. I also remember contrasting that with the good will that Coach K has always conveyed when a player transfers or requests a release from an LOI. But I can't remember if that happened at Wisconsin. I want to say it was a B1G school, though.

[Henderson]

I am obviously in the minority, but I think this is exactly what we was talking about and not OAD after actually watching the press conference. He made the statement in the context that his kids all came through the program -- not that some might leave early.

I don't share that view, but it's a reasonable one. The bigger point is your next one:


Anyway, I hate that Bo's comments have taken a lot of the post-game focus. We won, he's sucking sour grapes. Next play. New banner!

And with that, I wholeheartedly agree.

[Clay Feet POF]

Am I mistaken, or was it Bo Ryan who also was preventing one of his players from transferring a few years back? Or maybe he did something even more annoying like give the kid a list of schools he would "allow" him to transfer to. I remember thinking at the time that it was an insight into how that coach really ran his program and viewed his players . . . as if the players "owed" him something regardless of what the player and his family felt was best for him. I also remember contrasting that with the good will that Coach K has always conveyed when a player transfers or requests a release from an LOI. But I can't remember if that happened at Wisconsin. I want to say it was a B1G school, though.


Your Right it was Bo and he got a little more egg on this face when it try to explain it on the Mike & Mike show1

[AustinDevil]

He's talking about bringing players into the program that stay for one year. He says he doesn't do that (because he tried and failed - Sisyphus doesn't put boulders on top of hills either. He's just doesn't do that.)

I am shamelessly stealing the Sisyphus reference the next time I have a context in which to use it. Thanks!

[COYS]

Your Right it was Bo and he got a little more egg on this face when it try to explain it on the Mike & Mike show1

Here's an article outlining the incident -- http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/7829399/jarrod-uthoff-wisconsin-badgers-odds-potential-transfer

To me, it really doesn't make Bo Ryan look good at all, especially when viewed in combination with his, at best, unprofessional post-game presser. I can (sort of) understand why a player might be barred from transferring in conference (though even then I think a school should be honorable enough to let the athlete do whatever the athlete thinks is best for himself . . . he's not getting paid). But to bar local rival schools like Marquette or all ACC schools because of the B1G/ACC challenge and UF because of a home and home seems really petty.

[Henderson]

Here's an article outlining the incident -- http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/7829399/jarrod-uthoff-wisconsin-badgers-odds-potential-transfer

To me, it really doesn't make Bo Ryan look good at all, especially when viewed in combination with his, at best, unprofessional post-game presser. I can (sort of) understand why a player might be barred from transferring in conference (though even then I think a school should be honorable enough to let the athlete do whatever the athlete thinks is best for himself . . . he's not getting paid). But to bar local rival schools like Marquette or all ACC schools because of the B1G/ACC challenge and UF because of a home and home seems really petty.

Taken to its logical conclusion, shouldn't Bo's position be that the guy shouldn't transfer to any D1 team they might face in the NCAA tourney? That's 351 or so teams. Can't let him divulge secrets to any potential adversaries.

Come on, coaches. Lighten up. These kids have it hard enough as it is. And if one of your principles is to help develop young men, help them find their way in the world, even if it's not benefiting you. Or is it all about you instead?

[BD80]

DeCourcy gets it wrong:

http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/story/2015-04-13/bo-ryan-national-championship-game-comments-postgame-duke-mike-krzyzewski-media-reaction-mike-decourcy

Cites the printed transcript, which would suggest the "rent-a-player" comment was leading to the 5th year transfer comment, rather than recognizing the pause and change in tone, which indicated the 5th year transfer was an afterthought to cover his tracks.

[gurufrisbee]

Anyone whining with a comment about "rent-a-player" had better take every player they get and hold their hands until graduation.

The fact that Ryan offered a guaranteed one and done like Kevan Looney makes him a huge hypocrite.

The fact that Dekker is leaving early makes him a huge hypocrite.

He was a very impressive guy until he started whining and running his mouth full of sour grapes when he was outcoached and his team was outplayed.