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Skitzle
03-30-2015, 08:58 AM
This thread is inspired by one Mr. Quinn Cook. So happy he got his banner. So happy Duke is back in the final four.

If I'm not mistaken, here are the requirements for a banner

Win NC
Win ACC Tournament
Make Final Four

If this is correct? Who are the 4 year players in the K era that DON'T have a banner?

(Transfers and 1 and dones (Like Jabari and Rivers and Hood) Don't count).

Looking through the ACC tournament champions list and final fours.

It looks like the freshman classes of 1981, 1982, and 1995 are the ONLY players who don't have at least one banner for K.

Does that sound right?

Reilly
03-30-2015, 09:09 AM
Here's a quick way to check.

* = NCAA tourney berth
R = ACC regular season crown
T = Conference tourney crown
F = Final Four (NCAA regional crown)
N = National champion

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/duke/

DukieTiger
03-30-2015, 09:13 AM
This thread is inspired by one Mr. Quinn Cook. So happy he got his banner. So happy Duke is back in the final four.

If I'm not mistaken, here are the requirements for a banner

Win NC
Win ACC Tournament
Make Final Four

If this is correct? Who are the 4 year players in the K era that DON'T have a banner?

(Transfers and 1 and dones (Like Jabari and Rivers and Hood) Don't count).

Looking through the ACC tournament champions list and final fours.

It looks like the freshman classes of 1981, 1982, and 1995 are the ONLY players who don't have at least one banner for K.

Does that sound right?

I believe Duke hangs banners for ACC Regular Season championships too- which means 1995 (Wojo) has one from the '98 regular season.

While 1981 played under K, his first recruiting class (I believe) was 1982- so you could say he's only had one recruiting class without a banner.

johnb
03-30-2015, 09:25 AM
AP #1's?

Reilly
03-30-2015, 09:34 AM
With respect to ACC success only -- regular season and tourney crowns -- Duke had an amazing run in 1999, 2000, and 2001 were it won regular, tourney, regular, tourney, regular, tourney -- or, six straight ACC crowns.

With all the success that K has had over the years, there's no other run of even 3 in a row for ACC crowns (considering the regular season and tourney individually) -- showing how rough the ACC is and how nobody can stay on top for too long. Virginia just had three in a row with last year's regular and tourney and then followed by this year's regular.

SCMatt33
03-30-2015, 09:35 AM
I believe Duke hangs banners for ACC Regular Season championships too- which means 1995 (Wojo) has one from the '98 regular season.

While 1981 played under K, his first recruiting class (I believe) was 1982- so you could say he's only had one recruiting class without a banner.

They do, but I don't believe the practice of hanging regular season champ banners started until the mid-2000's or so, making Wojo's banner a retroactive one.

Ichabod Drain
03-30-2015, 09:36 AM
4931

NashvilleDevil
03-30-2015, 09:45 AM
4931

That had me rolling when I saw that on Twitter yesterday.

uh_no
03-30-2015, 09:47 AM
AP #1's?

Yep. THey're in the southwest corner.

OldPhiKap
03-30-2015, 09:50 AM
Yep. THey're in the southwest corner.

Aren't they just for final AP poll?

Newton_14
03-30-2015, 10:06 AM
With respect to ACC success only -- regular season and tourney crowns -- Duke had an amazing run in 1999, 2000, and 2001 were it won regular, tourney, regular, tourney, regular, tourney -- or, six straight ACC crowns.

With all the success that K has had over the years, there's no other run of even 3 in a row for ACC crowns (considering the regular season and tourney individually) -- showing how rough the ACC is and how nobody can stay on top for too long. Virginia just had three in a row with last year's regular and tourney and then followed by this year's regular.

It's even more impressive than that. Starting in 1997 and ending in 2006, Duke won either the ACC Reg Season, the ACC Tourney, or both for 10 straight seasons. Unreal accomplishment. They also had 3 Final Fours and 1 National Title during that stretch.

Reilly
03-30-2015, 10:16 AM
1997-2006 (10 seasons): 7 ACC regular, 7 ACC tourney, 3 Final Four, 1 National [18 t-shirt buying opportunities in 10 years]
2007-2015 (9 seasons): 1 ACC regular, 3 ACC tourney, 2 Final Four, 1 or 2 National [7-8 t-shirt buying opportunities in 9 years]

buddy
03-30-2015, 10:33 AM
ACC didn't recognize regular season champions then, but the Vic Bubas squads won four straight regular seasons ('63 - '66). In that stretch they won 3 tournaments and went to three Final Fours. So they had 5 straight championships from '63 - '65 (RTRTR). Of course, back then R got you #1 seed in ACCT and nothing else.

Skitzle
03-30-2015, 11:05 AM
Then Here is Your Answer.
4 Year Players who never won an ACC Tourney, NC or made a Final Four

1980-81 Freshman Class* (NOT K's Recruits)
Doug McNeely
Richard Ford* (Started out on JV Squad Called up later in career) Not sure if he counts as a recruit.

1981-82 Freshman Class
Dan Meagher
Todd Anderson
Jay Bryan

1995-96 Freshman Class* (This team won Regular Season Crown in 1997 & 98)
Ricky Price
Todd Singleton
Steve Wojciechowski
Trajan Langdon* (Redshirted got a Banner in 1999)
Roshown McLeod* (Transfer)

So No Asterisks the list is
Dan Meagher
Todd Anderson
Jay Bryan

1 Asterisk the list is
Doug McNeely
Ricky Price
Todd Singleton
Wojo

7 Players... Tops.

That is insane.


REALLY GLAD COOK IS NOT ON THE LIST.

Also WOJO had success with teams he coached, so he can be taken of too :)

SoCalDukeFan
03-30-2015, 11:14 AM
NC

SoCal

Leelee902
03-30-2015, 11:43 AM
Does anyone think it possible that Quinny could have his jersey in the rafters if they can somehow bring home a NC????

I know, I know there are all the "unofficial requirements" I have seen beleaguered on this page and elsewhere, but it may be hard to ever hang another jersey up there with the OAD era. It is hard to argue against how awesome a year Cook has had IMO. I know great players like Scheyer, Singler, Smith, even Plumlee stayed with Duke four years and brought home banners, but they had other seniors they could co-exist with to lead the team and they didn't have to lead four(!) freshman as half of their team to the promise land! And Amile is a captain (love you, Mile!), but everyone knows Cook is the heart of this team. He stands for everything college basketball should be about -- sticking around to mature on and off the court, taking pride in your program, then finally seizing the opportunity to lead as an upperclassman.

I think he would deserve it.

DukeUsul
03-30-2015, 11:46 AM
Does anyone think it possible that Quinny could have his jersey in the rafters if they can somehow bring home a NC????


Nope

SCMatt33
03-30-2015, 11:47 AM
Does anyone think it possible that Quinny could have his jersey in the rafters if they can somehow bring home a NC????

I know, I know there are all the "unofficial requirements" I have seen beleaguered on this page and elsewhere, but it may be hard to ever hang another jersey up there with the OAD era. It is hard to argue against how awesome a year Cook has had IMO. I know great players like Scheyer, Singler, Smith, even Plumlee stayed with Duke four years and brought home banners, but they had other seniors they could co-exist with to lead the team and they didn't have to lead four(!) freshman as half of their team to the promise land! And Amile is a captain (love you, Mile!), but everyone knows Cook is the heart of this team. He stands for everything college basketball should be about -- sticking around to mature on and off the court, taking pride in your program, then finally seizing the opportunity to lead as an upperclassman.

I think he would deserve it.

Honestly...no. This isn't a knock on him, but he can start by stepping behind Kyle, Nolan, and Jon. That's just from the last few years. You can go to any era (Bob Verga, Mark Alarie for example), and find great players without that honor. There's a ridiculously high bar to get your Jersey in the rafters in Cameron. This isn't the Dean Dome.

hurleyfor3
03-30-2015, 12:25 PM
4931

You'd think they'd slap the Jon Scheyer Face on the 2010 one.

NM Duke Fan
03-30-2015, 12:27 PM
This is a good read:

"Quinn has definitely sacrificed," Duke freshman Grayson Allen said. "You've never heard a word from him about who should be playing the point, or about Tyus, or about anything. He's been great. And it started on Day 1. When we'd play pickup in the summer, Quinn would say, 'Tyus, you play point.' And then he'd get on Tyus' team. He wanted Tyus to be the point guard and he wanted to play with Tyus, and that just speaks to his character..."

It has been obvious for some time just how much his team mates appreciate his character and leadership, just like Winslow putting the attention on Cook during his post game interview!

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/25128472/quinn-cook-finally-gets-his-banner

Skitzle
03-30-2015, 12:49 PM
Yeah that's the article that started it all! Fantastic. So happy for this kid.

jimsumner
03-30-2015, 01:06 PM
Then Here is Your Answer.
4 Year Players who never won an ACC Tourney, NC or made a Final Four

1980-81 Freshman Class* (NOT K's Recruits)
Doug McNeely
Richard Ford* (Started out on JV Squad Called up later in career) Not sure if he counts as a recruit.

1981-82 Freshman Class
Dan Meagher
Todd Anderson
Jay Bryan

1995-96 Freshman Class* (This team won Regular Season Crown in 1997 & 98)
Ricky Price
Todd Singleton
Steve Wojciechowski
Trajan Langdon* (Redshirted got a Banner in 1999)
Roshown McLeod* (Transfer)

So No Asterisks the list is
Dan Meagher
Todd Anderson
Jay Bryan

1 Asterisk the list is
Doug McNeely
Ricky Price
Todd Singleton
Wojo

7 Players... Tops.

That is insane.


REALLY GLAD COOK IS NOT ON THE LIST.

Also WOJO had success with teams he coached, so he can be taken of too :)

Doug McNeely was a K recruit. Foster did not have any commitments from that class when he left. K also brought in a walk-on named Gordon Whitted, a guard who only played as a freshman.

uh_no
03-30-2015, 01:18 PM
Nope

I think the members of the 2010 team put to rest any thought that tourney success really has much of a bearing on jersey retirement.

Kyle was a better player for four years, not just 1, and nolan had 1 excellent year, and one all american level year. If those two couldn't get in, then quinn, who by most accounts was average on the whole (a few really really good stretches, like maui (or was it carribean?) not withstanding) for three years followed by a really really good year, has no shot. Love what quinn has brought to the team for four years in energy, and especially this year in on court performance, but look at the names that are hanging up there

Laettner
Hill
Reddick
Battier

Is quinn among those? I don't think so. He may end up in the athletics "hall of fame."

Reilly
03-30-2015, 01:25 PM
Runs of dominance: 3+ ACC regular & tourney & ... championships in a row.

6: Duke (99R – 01T)
6: UNC (67R – 69T)

5: UNC (07R – 09R)
5: Duke (63R – 65R)
5: NCSU (54T – 56T)

4: NCSU (73R – 74T)

3: UVA (14R – 15R)
3: Duke (09T - 10T)
3: UNC (82R – 83R)
3: UNC (77R – 78R)

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/conferences/acc/

ACC has been playing for 62 seasons. In less than half (30/62) has a regular season first place team also won the ACC Tourney.

Olympic Fan
03-30-2015, 01:35 PM
Then Here is Your Answer.
4 Year Players who never won an ACC Tourney, NC or made a Final Four

1980-81 Freshman Class* (NOT K's Recruits)
Doug McNeely
Richard Ford* (Started out on JV Squad Called up later in career) Not sure if he counts as a recruit.

1981-82 Freshman Class
Dan Meagher
Todd Anderson
Jay Bryan

1995-96 Freshman Class* (This team won Regular Season Crown in 1997 & 98)
Ricky Price
Todd Singleton
Steve Wojciechowski
Trajan Langdon* (Redshirted got a Banner in 1999)
Roshown McLeod* (Transfer)

So No Asterisks the list is
Dan Meagher
Todd Anderson
Jay Bryan

1 Asterisk the list is
Doug McNeely
Ricky Price
Todd Singleton
Wojo

7 Players... Tops.

That is insane.


REALLY GLAD COOK IS NOT ON THE LIST.

Also WOJO had success with teams he coached, so he can be taken of too :)

As Jim Sumner pointed out, McNeely was a K recruit -- his first recruit at Duke and the only one he signed that first spring. So add him to the list of Meagher, Anderson and Bryan.

Todd Singleton was a walk-on, not a recruit.

And Price and Wojo played on two teams that won ACC regular season championships (1997 and 1998), so they got banners.

That means that the only four-year players under K without banners are the first four guys he recruited -- Doug McNeely, Dan Meagher, Todd Anderson and Jay Bryan.

vick
03-30-2015, 01:46 PM
I think the members of the 2010 team put to rest any thought that tourney success really has much of a bearing on jersey retirement.

Kyle was a better player for four years, not just 1, and nolan had 1 excellent year, and one all american level year. If those two couldn't get in, then quinn, who by most accounts was average on the whole (a few really really good stretches, like maui (or was it carribean?) not withstanding) for three years followed by a really really good year, has no shot. Love what quinn has brought to the team for four years in energy, and especially this year in on court performance, but look at the names that are hanging up there

Laettner
Hill
Reddick
Battier

Is quinn among those? I don't think so. He may end up in the athletics "hall of fame."

While agreeing with your larger point, I have to take issue with the description of Quinn as "average" for three years. I mean, he was third team all-ACC as a sophomore. You know who else was third-team all-ACC as a sophomore? Bobby Hurley (in a much smaller conference, though of course with less early-entry). Let's not let rightful celebration of Quinn's improvement as a senior cloud the fact he was a pretty good player for the two years before.

jimsumner
03-30-2015, 03:04 PM
As Jim Sumner pointed out, McNeely was a K recruit -- his first recruit at Duke and the only one he signed that first spring. So add him to the list of Meagher, Anderson and Bryan.

Todd Singleton was a walk-on, not a recruit.

And Price and Wojo played on two teams that won ACC regular season championships (1997 and 1998), so they got banners.

That means that the only four-year players under K without banners are the first four guys he recruited -- Doug McNeely, Dan Meagher, Todd Anderson and Jay Bryan.

As an addendum, every player that K inherited from Foster had contributed to a 1980 ACC Tournament title team. In fact, all of Foster's recruits who stayed four years also have banners. Note that Foster's first Duke class consisted of Kenny Young and Rick Gomez, neither of whom stuck around for four years but who would have been seniors in 1978.

Leelee902
03-30-2015, 03:06 PM
I hear what everyone is saying...

The stats and accolades don't add up to former players, but I'm standing by it alone though I may be. Here is why in detail.

People have pointed out Alarie, Verga, and some may have thought of Wojo, Langdon, Amaker or myriad others with lovely senior years that are not hung in the rafters --->>>>> NO NATTIES FOR DUKE!

There are others that hang in the rafters who had great accolades and tenures at Duke without a Natty even --->>> all before the 90s (5! as I'm counting Heyman here), Redick, S. Williams. That's a fair amount without any NCs to show for it.

Now the ones that did help bring home a Natty, were great in their own right, and are not in the rafters --->>> Smith, Scheyer, Singler, Boozer to name the ones that really spring to my mind. Boozer's role in 2001 was limited d/t injury, no POYs and in '02 no natty. Scheyer was part of an awesome GROUP of seniors who all stepped up huge that year in their roles to take that team to the top and they did not have any OADs, oh and two pretty awesome juniors to help lead, too. Smith and Singler had each other their senior years, but Singler had arguably his "worst" (laughable, I know) year at Duke, Smith fell short of NPOY (people's champ doesn't count), and there was no Natty at the end.

Now let's throw in those with retired jerseys and NC banners hanging. Laettner, Hurley, Hill, Mullins, Battier, and J. Williams. They all had dynamite upperclassmen with them when they won the NC and during their last year at Duke to help shoulder the load of expectation, and they earned their banners with players that eventually had their jerseys retired, too. Oh, and they were all before the OAD era began.

If anyone deserves it ahead of Cook I would say Singler with the MOP award during the 2010 Final Four and they awesome four years he had, but if we were to win it this year I truly think he would be right there. I know this is not likely to happen given the history of the retired jerseys and all, but look at all the crazy, unique circumstances combined this year:
-being the lone senior (particularly considering the group he came in with as a Frosh)
-giving up the coveted starting PG position for an entirely new position at SG (kid played PG his whole life and his wiki page BTW still says he's the starting PG at duke)
-having been considered an emotional roller coaster of a player before this year and people thinking he wouldn't even start, let alone make an All-America team
-all above while experiencing the first EVER dismissal of a Duke player -- this while mid-season before a huge game with UVA on the road that they won!
-all above with the later sexual assault national headlines that sprung from our own campus paper
-captaining, leading the first Duke team with obvious OAD talent to a Natty (MP2 didn't live up to the hype with Scheyer, Smith and Singler couldn't do it with Irving even though I know he was hurt, Thornton and Hairston couldn't do it with Parker, MP1 def couldn't with Rivers, Redick and Williams couldn't with Deng, even Langdon couldn't with Maggette). This is a new era of college basketball. Not only could the other players above not do it with only ONE OAD, but Cook has done it with THREE! The fact that there are three such talented players certainly helps, but they are still freshman and egos, lack of experience could have easily got in the way.
-possibly (hopefully!) leaving Duke with the best A:TO in the program's history
-if he continues to shut down the other team's best guard the rest of the tourney
-having everyone in the program say you are the main reason they are in this position (c'mon it's him and K this year)
-and if and only if they brought home Duke's fifth national championship with all these circumstances ...

Tell me another Duke player who is as deserving in this extremely unique way to have their jersey honored in our hallowed rafters? I'm so posting this list to K if we win out.

ps- I hope this at least makes whoever thought (only one person actually said it ;) ) I so hastily name a retired jersey as those in the Dean Dome realize I have actual reasons for this line of thinking.

jimsumner
03-30-2015, 03:28 PM
I love Quinn Cook and his very significant contributions to this great season. But c'mon. Are we seriously suggesting retiring the jersey of a player who never made first-team All-ACC? In a universe in which Jack Marin, Bob Verga, Mike Lewis, Randy Denton, Jim Spanarkel, Gene Banks, Mark Alarie, Trajan Langdon, Chris Carrawell, Mike Dunleavy, Chris Duhon, Jon Scheyer, Kyle Singler, Nolan Smith and Mason Plumlee's jerseys are very much unretired?

Leelee902
03-30-2015, 03:31 PM
I just did

DukeandMdFan
03-30-2015, 03:51 PM
It's even more impressive than that. Starting in 1997 and ending in 2006, Duke won either the ACC Reg Season, the ACC Tourney, or both for 10 straight seasons. Unreal accomplishment. They also had 3 Final Fours and 1 National Title during that stretch.

And that streak doesn't overlap the 7 FFs in 9 years run streak which I think is even more impressive.

Henderson
03-30-2015, 03:52 PM
I love Quinn Cook and his very significant contributions to this great season. But c'mon. Are we seriously suggesting retiring the jersey of a player who never made first-team All-ACC? In a universe in which Jack Marin, Bob Verga, Mike Lewis, Randy Denton, Jim Spanarkel, Gene Banks, Mark Alarie, Trajan Langdon, Chris Carrawell, Mike Dunleavy, Chris Duhon, Jon Scheyer, Kyle Singler, Nolan Smith and Mason Plumlee's jerseys are very much unretired?

Well, the number is available without stepping on a former star. But like revenge, a jersey retirement is best served cold except in some outlying situation. Give it a few years, then folks can make a measured judgment. We always have to remember that a basketball program is longer than life, and there are only so many numbers. And you don't want to water down the significance of the gesture by focusing too closely on the new shiny penny.

Not that Quinn is just a new shiny penny, blah blah qualification blah blah.

jimsumner
03-30-2015, 03:55 PM
I just did

Your emoticon doesn't suggest "seriously." :)

But seriously, based on the jersey retirement standards explained to me by Joe Alleva and later Kevin White, Quinn Cook has zero chance of having his jersey retired.

And that's as it should be. At the program with Duke's historic successes, the bar has to be very high. Very, very high.

But if you want to try to explain why Cook deserves this more than Bob Verga--three-time first team All-ACC, consensus first-team All-America, 22.0 career ppg average (third in school history)--then knock yourself out.

Or if NCAA titles trump all, why Cook over Scheyer, Singler and Smith, all of whom had comparable or superior seasons in Duke's most recent NCAA title run and had better four-year careers than Cook.

OldPhiKap
03-30-2015, 05:17 PM
Quinn led his team to a Final Four, and perhaps beyond. He has been the epitome of a kid who puts program and team first, over personal accolades. Other than Nolan Smith, it is hard for me to think of a player who has had such a large growth arc as Quinn has from freshman year to senior leader.

As Jim mentioned, the criteria for retirement is pretty set and pretty high. National Player of the Year being one measure. (Not even all defensive NPOY's though -- Tommy Amaker and Billy King come to mind as players winning national accolades yet whose numbers were not retired). And as Jim also pointed, out, even being a consensus first-team all-American is not always enough. The standard is brutally high, as it should be.

Leelee, I love your enthusiasm for Cook and I am a huge fan of his too. He has had a fantastic senior campaign and placed himself solidly in Duke lore. At the end of the day, though, the largest banners hanging in Cameron are not for individual players -- they are for National Championship teams. Quinn has a chance to place one up there, as the captain of that team. My guess is that there is nothing that would mean more to Quinn than that.

Let's Go Duke. We can worry about these things next week.

jv001
03-30-2015, 07:31 PM
I just did

Your eye test doesn't see the same things my eye test saw with the list of players Jim named. Most all of those players had very distinguished careers at Duke. Taking nothing away from Quinn's great senior season, I just don't think Quinn has been as consistent as those players. But you are surely welcome to your opinion. By the way what's your Grandpa,s name that played Duke football. I probably remember him as well. GoDuke!

Leelee902
03-30-2015, 07:45 PM
I know he won't go up there, but I think he should. I agree that it takes extraordinary accomplishments to have your jersey hung and if Duke bball is about what those little signs say outside of CIS (loyalty, determination, leadership, etc), then given how this year has played out I think he would earn it with a NC. But you gotta have the numbers and national praise, so that is that. I do think it's criminal that Bob Verga isn't up there with all his accolades, but that's gotta mean a national championship means something. I never saw him play, but my grandma says, "boy, he was something".
If nothing else, I hadn't seen this debate around here in a while so why not.

Also, my grandpa was "Bunny" Blaney and teamed up with Sonny Jurgensen back in the 50s :)
Man, I wish he had been around to see the resurrection of our football program!

Newton_14
03-30-2015, 07:57 PM
I know he won't go up there, but I think he should. I agree that it takes extraordinary accomplishments to have your jersey hung and if Duke bball is about what those little signs say outside of CIS (loyalty, determination, leadership, etc), then given how this year has played out I think he would earn it with a NC. But you gotta have the numbers and national praise, so that is that. I do think it's criminal that Bob Verga isn't up there with all his accolades, but that's gotta mean a national championship means something. I never saw him play, but my grandma says, "boy, he was something".
If nothing else, I hadn't seen this debate around here in a while so why not.

Also, my grandpa was "Bunny" Blaney and teamed up with Sonny Jurgensen back in the 50s :)
Man, I wish he had been around to see the resurrection of our football program!

You honestly and sincerely feel that Quinn Cook should have his number retired? (And I hate arguments like this as it forces people to point out shortcomings of Duke Players we all love) because if you do then, well, lets just put them all up there and give every player a ribbon for participating. Might as well add Jahlil's, Tyus Jones, and Winslow up there too.

Or we could just be like Unc and just put every player who had a decent career in the rafters.

I love Quinn. He has been great and he is a large part of why this team made the Final Four, but he is not even in the discussion of jersey retirement and he would be the first person to argue that.

It's fine to have a favorite player, but at some point rationality has to kick in where it's recognized that not every good player should have his jersey retired. It's a special honor reserved for the Elite of the Elite, not the Elite themselves.

killerleft
03-30-2015, 08:54 PM
There is a possible added benefit to Quinn getting his Banner for reaching this Final Four. Now that the monkey is off his back, I wouldn't be surprised if Mr. Cook reverted to the loose-and-confident-scorer Quinn we remember from earlier in the year.

He has played a little tight on offense lately, in my opinion. Here's hoping that he plays like he's using house money. I'm thinking he will. After all, he's put in the excellent work all year to make sure we got here. Time to reap some real rewards!

Go Quinn, and Go Duke!!

Leelee902
03-30-2015, 09:49 PM
Call me crazie, just spell it right. Also, Q. Cook so owes me a drink ... I've never been to shooters and it'd be the only way I'd go! :cool:
Now bring it all home from Indy, boys!

turnandburn55
03-30-2015, 10:10 PM
Jersey retired is an individual honor. You have to be "national" something.

Quinn isn't the National Player of the Year, National Defensive Player of the Year, or ACC Player of the Year.

He isn't first-team all-America or even first-team all-ACC.

I love him. I really do, and I think he has shown himself to be an outstanding player, and more importantly, leader, for Duke.

Reilly
03-30-2015, 10:41 PM
... It's fine to have a favorite player, but at some point rationality has to kick in ...

It's going to be really cool when they retire Patrick Davidson's as an homage to DBR ...

Newton_14
03-30-2015, 10:50 PM
It's going to be really cool when they retire Patrick Davidson's as an homage to DBR ...

Now that is something we all can get behind!!

brevity
03-30-2015, 10:59 PM
It's going to be really cool when they retire Patrick Davidson's as an homage to DBR ...

Now that could be tricky. To properly honor Patrick Davidson (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?8690), we would have to retire the number 41. Not the jersey, the number. No one would ever be able to use the number 41 again, for any reason.

msdukie
03-30-2015, 11:35 PM
In case you haven't memorized where all of the banners are in Cameron, you may not be aware that there are now ONE HUNDRED banners hanging in the rafters.

You get bonus points if you can a) identify the banner that is a falsehood and should not be hanging and
b) identify the banner that is missing and never has been hung.

I know one of you knows the answer.

And if any of you have an in with the athletic department, it would be nice if we could get this fixed.

uh_no
03-30-2015, 11:43 PM
In case you haven't memorized where all of the banners are in Cameron, you may not be aware that there are now ONE HUNDRED banners hanging in the rafters.

You get bonus points if you can a) identify the banner that is a falsehood and should not be hanging and
b) identify the banner that is missing and never has been hung.

I know one of you knows the answer.

And if any of you have an in with the athletic department, it would be nice if we could get this fixed.

a) according to many here, every "ACC regular season champions" banner
b) according to many here, the retired jersey of someone from the 2010 title team

:)

no?

msdukie
03-30-2015, 11:51 PM
a) according to many here, every "ACC regular season champions" banner
b) according to many here, the retired jersey of someone from the 2010 title team

:)

no?

No ;)

I'm referring to one that is a falsehood and one that is missing that shouldn't be.

cspan37421
03-31-2015, 12:00 AM
In case you haven't memorized where all of the banners are in Cameron, you may not be aware that there are now ONE HUNDRED banners hanging in the rafters.

You get bonus points if you can a) identify the banner that is a falsehood and should not be hanging and
b) identify the banner that is missing and never has been hung.

I know one of you knows the answer.

And if any of you have an in with the athletic department, it would be nice if we could get this fixed.

Haven't made an inventory so this is a guess:

b) is the 1999 FF banner missing, never hung? (because someone(s) never graduated ?)

No idea on a)

msdukie
03-31-2015, 12:04 AM
Haven't made an inventory so this is a guess:

b) is the 1999 FF banner missing, never hung? (because someone(s) never graduated ?)

No idea on a)

Nope that's up. Only banner that was delayed due to graduation issues was the 1990 Final Four banner which was raised in the summer of 1999.

sagegrouse
03-31-2015, 12:08 AM
Honestly...no. This isn't a knock on him, but he can start by stepping behind Kyle, Nolan, and Jon. That's just from the last few years. You can go to any era (Bob Verga, Mark Alarie for example), and find great players without that honor. There's a ridiculously high bar to get your Jersey in the rafters in Cameron. This isn't the Dean Dome.

+1, plus Dunleavy and Boozer (if he ever gets his degree) and Brand (ditto) and Carrawell.

gofurman
03-31-2015, 12:17 AM
Quick question. I know they hang a final four banner regardless. Do they hang 'national runner-up' banner if we were to win Saturday and lose Monday in place of the Ff banner? Or just the ff banner ...unless we win the title?? In other words, does winning Saturday change the banner? Or do have to win it all to change the ff banner?

Edouble
03-31-2015, 12:33 AM
Quick question. I know they hang a final four banner regardless. Do they hang 'national runner-up' banner if we were to win Saturday and lose Monday in place of the Ff banner? Or just the ff banner ...unless we win the title?? In other words, does winning Saturday change the banner? Or do have to win it all to change the ff banner?

Just Final Fours and NCs, hence no difference between what was hung in '99 (loss on Monday night) and what was hung in '04 (loss on Saturday night).

CDu
03-31-2015, 12:34 AM
Quick question. I know they hang a final four banner regardless. Do they hang 'national runner-up' banner if we were to win Saturday and lose Monday in place of the Ff banner? Or just the ff banner ...unless we win the title?? In other words, does winning Saturday change the banner? Or do have to win it all to change the ff banner?

I would think it changes the banner. But I haven't looked closely enough (or recently enough) at the banners for 1999, 1990, 1986 to know for sure.

turnandburn55
03-31-2015, 01:24 AM
There is no national runner up banner

hurleyfor3
03-31-2015, 01:32 AM
Now that could be tricky. To properly honor Patrick Davidson (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?8690), we would have to retire the number 41. Not the jersey, the number. No one would ever be able to use the number 41 again, for any reason.

Wouldn't be the first time. (http://www.theonion.com/articles/mathematics-to-retire-favres-number,6084/)

MarkD83
03-31-2015, 04:36 AM
In case you haven't memorized where all of the banners are in Cameron, you may not be aware that there are now ONE HUNDRED banners hanging in the rafters.

You get bonus points if you can a) identify the banner that is a falsehood and should not be hanging and
b) identify the banner that is missing and never has been hung.

I know one of you knows the answer.

And if any of you have an in with the athletic department, it would be nice if we could get this fixed.

a) Did someone steal the Helms Banner from UNC and hang it in Cameron?

OldPhiKap
03-31-2015, 07:22 AM
Now that could be tricky. To properly honor Patrick Davidson (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?8690), we would have to retire the number 41. Not the jersey, the number. No one would ever be able to use the number 41 again, for any reason.

Well, they have gone ahead and declared that 41 is no longer a prime number because it is divisible by "Patrick Davidson" -- a figure which is simultaneously somewhat irrational and imaginary.

DukeUsul
03-31-2015, 10:43 AM
I see a lot of people criticizing UNC for retiring so many jerseys. I think many of you fail to realize that UNC has only retired 8 jerseys (while Duke has retired 13). The vast majority of the jerseys in the dome's rafters are for "honored" players, guys like we're talking about above who have done great things but not quite making the very high standards of retirement. I hate defending them, but there's quite a bit of reasonableness to their approach. We in fact do something similar, but the guys who get honored don't go in the rafters, but in the hall of fame.

Sir Stealth
03-31-2015, 11:03 AM
I see a lot of people criticizing UNC for retiring so many jerseys. I think many of you fail to realize that UNC has only retired 8 jerseys (while Duke has retired 13). The vast majority of the jerseys in the dome's rafters are for "honored" players, guys like we're talking about above who have done great things but not quite making the very high standards of retirement. I hate defending them, but there's quite a bit of reasonableness to their approach. We in fact do something similar, but the guys who get honored don't go in the rafters, but in the hall of fame.

While this may technically be true, 1) 99% of observers think of any jersey hanging in a stadium as "retired," because that is nearly always how it's done and 2) UNC loves to point up to the high volume of jerseys hanging in their rafters as an indication of their program's greatness. They can call them what they want, but hanging jerseys for the likes of Brendan Haywood, Wayne Ellington, and Harrison Barnes is a joke and absolutely cheapens the meaning of what's up there, including the value of the "retired jerseys." Just as hanging fake national championship banners also cheapens real accomplishments, just as hanging jerseys and ill-gotten banners achieved through decades of cheating...could kind of go on and on with them.

It mystifies me when people try to say that making UNC take down banners as punishment won't serve any purpose or do any good. They look at the volume of crap they put up there as the defining image of their program, and have shown that they will cut any corner, whether it's the lame "honored" criteria or cheating to win, to justify putting more up.

If you're looking for the main reason why many Duke fans are so protective of having very high criteria for hanging a jersey up, even when a player has meant a ton to the program and led his team to great accomplishments, this is probably it. Have some standards for goodness sake. Bob Verga should still probably be up there though.

Kfanarmy
03-31-2015, 11:15 AM
Does anyone think it possible that Quinny could have his jersey in the rafters if they can somehow bring home a NC????

I know, I know there are all the "unofficial requirements" I have seen beleaguered on this page and elsewhere, but it may be hard to ever hang another jersey up there with the OAD era. It is hard to argue against how awesome a year Cook has had IMO. I know great players like Scheyer, Singler, Smith, even Plumlee stayed with Duke four years and brought home banners, but they had other seniors they could co-exist with to lead the team and they didn't have to lead four(!) freshman as half of their team to the promise land! And Amile is a captain (love you, Mile!), but everyone knows Cook is the heart of this team. He stands for everything college basketball should be about -- sticking around to mature on and off the court, taking pride in your program, then finally seizing the opportunity to lead as an upperclassman.

I think he would deserve it.

Who is Quinny?

wilson
03-31-2015, 11:39 AM
...a) identify the banner that is a falsehood and should not be hanging and
b) identify the banner that is missing and never has been hung.I'm still dying to know the answer here.

Henderson
03-31-2015, 11:47 AM
I'm still dying to know the answer here.

Me too. I have the Final Jeopardy music in my head, and that's not good.

acdevil
03-31-2015, 12:47 PM
c'mon MS - time to spill the beans.

AIRFORCEDUKIE
03-31-2015, 02:35 PM
Bump, need an answer for the sake of not thinking about it for the rest of my life.

Henderson
03-31-2015, 07:43 PM
I'll guess the first is the "Division 1 Most Career Victories" banner, but I hope I'm wrong so we don't have to go there.

Atldukie79
03-31-2015, 09:50 PM
Then Here is Your Answer.
4 Year Players who never won an ACC Tourney, NC or made a Final Four

1980-81 Freshman Class* (NOT K's Recruits)
Doug McNeely
Richard Ford* (Started out on JV Squad Called up later in career) Not sure if he counts as a recruit.

1981-82 Freshman Class
Dan Meagher
Todd Anderson
Jay Bryan

1995-96 Freshman Class* (This team won Regular Season Crown in 1997 & 98)
Ricky Price
Todd Singleton
Steve Wojciechowski
Trajan Langdon* (Redshirted got a Banner in 1999)
Roshown McLeod* (Transfer)

So No Asterisks the list is
Dan Meagher
Todd Anderson
Jay Bryan

1 Asterisk the list is
Doug McNeely
Ricky Price
Todd Singleton
Wojo

7 Players... Tops.

That is insane.


REALLY GLAD COOK IS NOT ON THE LIST.

Also WOJO had success with teams he coached, so he can be taken of too :)

I appreciate the research to present this list. One correction (without actually doing my own research)...but I believe the Price/Wojo group was 1994-1995 freshman class, not 1995-1996. The 96 class would have been around for 99.

msdukie
03-31-2015, 10:51 PM
Since no one has gotten the answer:

(or considered that there are banners of both genders in Cameron....)

1) 2003 Women's USA Final National Ranking #1 - yeah, that hangs. No, it isn't true. To get the final USAT ranking you have to win the national title. Duke was #1 in the poll after the ACC T, that is the same time the final AP poll comes out, not the final coaches poll, in fact, here is the actual final poll, confirming Duke was #1 in the next to last poll:

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/college/womensbasketball/2002-03-final-usatpoll.htm

2) Conversely, Duke was #1 in the Final Women's AP Poll in 2007 (as it was in 2004, which hangs), the 2007 banner has never been put up, but here the is poll:

http://espn.go.com/womens-college-basketball/rankings/_/year/2007

I also don't understand why the women's banners say "women's" but the men's banners don't say men's. I assume it was originally because all of the men's banners predated the women's team's success, but every banner in Cameron has been replaced either in 2005 or later. (There are errors in numerous banners by the way, many of which have been fixed over time, for example many of the Final Four banners used to have the wrong NCAA logo, several ACC Championship banners had the wrong seals etc., the only "errors" I can think of now is that the 2004 Women's AP #1 banner is missing the word "Women's" (old and new versions had the same mistake) and the '2013 Women's ACC Champions Regular Season Tournament' banner has the colors inverted on the ACC seal; I think all of the men's banners are correct now).

CDu
04-01-2015, 12:42 AM
Since no one has gotten the answer:

(or considered that there are banners of both genders in Cameron....)

1) 2003 Women's USA Final National Ranking #1 - yeah, that hangs. No, it isn't true. To get the final USAT ranking you have to win the national title. Duke was #1 in the poll after the ACC T, that is the same time the final AP poll comes out, not the final coaches poll, in fact, here is the actual final poll, confirming Duke was #1 in the next to last poll:

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/college/womensbasketball/2002-03-final-usatpoll.htm

2) Conversely, Duke was #1 in the Final Women's AP Poll in 2007 (as it was in 2004, which hangs), the 2007 banner has never been put up, but here the is poll:

http://espn.go.com/womens-college-basketball/rankings/_/year/2007

I also don't understand why the women's banners say "women's" but the men's banners don't say men's. I assume it was originally because all of the men's banners predated the women's team's success, but every banner in Cameron has been replaced either in 2005 or later. (There are errors in numerous banners by the way, many of which have been fixed over time, for example many of the Final Four banners used to have the wrong NCAA logo, several ACC Championship banners had the wrong seals etc., the only "errors" I can think of now is that the 2004 Women's AP #1 banner is missing the word "Women's" (old and new versions had the same mistake) and the '2013 Women's ACC Champions Regular Season Tournament' banner has the colors inverted on the ACC seal; I think all of the men's banners are correct now).

Wouldn't the final #1 banner thing also apply to the men's teams? I seem to recall a few of those banners from non-title years too.

msdukie
04-01-2015, 12:53 AM
Wouldn't the final #1 banner thing also apply to the men's teams? I seem to recall a few of those banners from non-title years too.

The Final #1 AP Poll is the poll after the ACC Tournament. A number of men's teams did get the Final #1 AP ranking (and banner) without the title. The USA Today poll doesn't work that way. The final coaches' (USA Today) poll is taken right after the title game and the coaches poll then awards the crystal ball trophy.

neemizzle
04-01-2015, 04:57 AM
While I'd love to put Quinn's number in the rafters, I feel like Nolan Smith would deserve it much more. That's not a knock on Quinn at all, it's just that Nolan sticks in my mind. Now on the other hand, come Monday night and we're the National Champions, that's something special. Someone here said it earlier in the thread that a Title banner for 2015 will be enough for him. Truthfully, I agree with this statement 100%. That makes more sense then Duke retiring the jersey.

What I will say though, as it was also said in the thread earlier, is I agree wholeheartedly that there aren't many players with a growth spectrum such as Cook. I remember watching one of his high school games one night because ESPN said there's recruits in it, and low and behold there he was. I also remember his freshman season with Kyrie Irving (and Nolan) and his 3rd team all ACC season during his Sophomore year (with Austin Rivers), and then last season (with Rodney Hood and Jabari Parker). Then comes his senior year, and he's likely to be overshadowed again by these freshmen, but honestly, he's grown so much and you can tell he's the leader. Heck even the players are vocal about how vital he is to them.

So during his career, he's been overshadowed by Kyrie, Austin, Jabari/Rodney, and now our freshmen.

So at the discussion of retiring his jersey, I say this: if these freshmen (or upperclassmen in Rodney's case) wouldn't have came, would that have given Quinn a better chance to shine? Just a question.

I follow the guy on Instagram and the work he put in during the offseason was ridiculous. He worked in the gym on his game all summer, everyday. He wasn't playing around.

I would agree that no, his jersey doesn't need to be in the rafters, but at the same time he deserves any kind of awards he gets. He was wrongly not placed on First Team All-ACC, which I found to be a crime, and he's an honorable MENTION for All American? That's a joke. He made shot after shot and played out of his mind this season.

Hingeknocker
04-01-2015, 09:33 AM
While I'd love to put Quinn's number in the rafters, I feel like Nolan Smith would deserve it much more. That's not a knock on Quinn at all, it's just that Nolan sticks in my mind. Now on the other hand, come Monday night and we're the National Champions, that's something special. Someone here said it earlier in the thread that a Title banner for 2015 will be enough for him. Truthfully, I agree with this statement 100%. That makes more sense then Duke retiring the jersey.

What I will say though, as it was also said in the thread earlier, is I agree wholeheartedly that there aren't many players with a growth spectrum such as Cook. I remember watching one of his high school games one night because ESPN said there's recruits in it, and low and behold there he was. I also remember his freshman season with Kyrie Irving (and Nolan) and his 3rd team all ACC season during his Sophomore year (with Austin Rivers), and then last season (with Rodney Hood and Jabari Parker). Then comes his senior year, and he's likely to be overshadowed again by these freshmen, but honestly, he's grown so much and you can tell he's the leader. Heck even the players are vocal about how vital he is to them.

So during his career, he's been overshadowed by Kyrie, Austin, Jabari/Rodney, and now our freshmen.

So at the discussion of retiring his jersey, I say this: if these freshmen (or upperclassmen in Rodney's case) wouldn't have came, would that have given Quinn a better chance to shine? Just a question.

I follow the guy on Instagram and the work he put in during the offseason was ridiculous. He worked in the gym on his game all summer, everyday. He wasn't playing around.

I would agree that no, his jersey doesn't need to be in the rafters, but at the same time he deserves any kind of awards he gets. He was wrongly not placed on First Team All-ACC, which I found to be a crime, and he's an honorable MENTION for All American? That's a joke. He made shot after shot and played out of his mind this season.

Lots of great points here, but Quinn's freshman year was the 2012 (Austin Rivers) season. You left out his sophomore year - the 2013 team led by Mason Plumlee, Ryan Kelly, Seth Curry, etc. - which made the Elite 8. 2013 was a fun season, hopefully it's not forgotten so easily!

gus
04-01-2015, 09:44 AM
I appreciate the research to present this list. One correction (without actually doing my own research)...but I believe the Price/Wojo group was 1994-1995 freshman class, not 1995-1996. The 96 class would have been around for 99.

That's correct, but it's understandable if people choose to forget that: Price and Wojo were freshmen in the '95 season, along with Todd Singleton and Trajan.

Dev11
04-01-2015, 09:53 AM
Perhaps it's just me, but I never figured out why we hang AP #1 ranking banners. I suppose it represents a sort of "national championship," but that championship is decided by a group of reporters, not basketball players. Further, it seems to highlight years when we underperformed in the tournament, and there are quite a few of those banners up there. Being a name brand program, Duke gets the benefit of the doubt in poll rankings.

ACC championships NCAA championships, these are things we've won that we knew exactly the criteria for ahead of the season. Does Coach K tell the players to be mindful of the rankings and try to get the top spot? Do any Duke fans bother to memorize which seasons we finished #1? I know folks who are proud to remember all the NCAA and ACC titles and retired jerseys along with their associated national honors that led to retirement, but I don't think anybody bothers to remember the #1 rankings.

At least we don't leave them up next to the actual NCAA championship banners like UNC does with the Helms banner, which was won under similar methods (a separate entity votes at some point on who the champions were, rather than deciding it with a record in games played).

Henderson
04-01-2015, 11:25 AM
Perhaps it's just me, but I never figured out why we hang AP #1 ranking banners. I suppose it represents a sort of "national championship," but that championship is decided by a group of reporters, not basketball players. Further, it seems to highlight years when we underperformed in the tournament, and there are quite a few of those banners up there. Being a name brand program, Duke gets the benefit of the doubt in poll rankings.

ACC championships NCAA championships, these are things we've won that we knew exactly the criteria for ahead of the season. Does Coach K tell the players to be mindful of the rankings and try to get the top spot? Do any Duke fans bother to memorize which seasons we finished #1? I know folks who are proud to remember all the NCAA and ACC titles and retired jerseys along with their associated national honors that led to retirement, but I don't think anybody bothers to remember the #1 rankings.

At least we don't leave them up next to the actual NCAA championship banners like UNC does with the Helms banner, which was won under similar methods (a separate entity votes at some point on who the champions were, rather than deciding it with a record in games played).

It's not just you. There does seem to be a banner mania. Touting success is how people move upward (or keep their jobs) whether with resumes or basketball arenas. So people do it. But after a while, observers have the same reaction they have to other resume-boosters: Self-promotion fatigue. Remember when people put their "Who's Who" references on their resumes? I guess now people put their "line monitor" or "tent number" out there. If that's all you have, I guess it's good to have something. It's easier with resumes, where the lesser "accomplishments" of youth give way to greater accomplishments. Not so easy with banners.

After a while, the impact is diluted. If that goes far enough, it becomes sort of embarassing. And in the worst cases, it takes away from the legitimate significance of more meaningful accolades.

You shouldn't retire the number of every player who was great, especially if you have many. And you shouldn't hang a banner for every accomplishment, especially if you have many. But at the time, it may be the best you've got to tout. The problem is later when the accomplishment seems sort of secondary in the grand scheme. And by then it's too late, because banners are tough to take down once they're up there.

turnandburn55
04-01-2015, 11:31 AM
Perhaps it's just me, but I never figured out why we hang AP #1 ranking banners.

I remember wondering this in 1999 when we hung the AP #1 banner after we'd lost to UConn. Felt like we were trying to sneak in a national championship through the back door... I didn't get it then and I don't now either...

neemizzle
04-01-2015, 12:15 PM
Lots of great points here, but Quinn's freshman year was the 2012 (Austin Rivers) season. You left out his sophomore year - the 2013 team led by Mason Plumlee, Ryan Kelly, Seth Curry, etc. - which made the Elite 8. 2013 was a fun season, hopefully it's not forgotten so easily!

My mistakes. I knew I was messing that up somehow. Thanks for the correction!

vick
04-01-2015, 12:56 PM
It's not just you. There does seem to be a banner mania. Touting success is how people move upward (or keep their jobs) whether with resumes or basketball arenas. So people do it. But after a while, observers have the same reaction they have to other resume-boosters: Self-promotion fatigue. Remember when people put their "Who's Who" references on their resumes? I guess now people put their "line monitor" or "tent number" out there. If that's all you have, I guess it's good to have something. It's easier with resumes, where the lesser "accomplishments" of youth give way to greater accomplishments. Not so easy with banners.

After a while, the impact is diluted. If that goes far enough, it becomes sort of embarassing. And in the worst cases, it takes away from the legitimate significance of more meaningful accolades.

You shouldn't retire the number of every player who was great, especially if you have many. And you shouldn't hang a banner for every accomplishment, especially if you have many. But at the time, it may be the best you've got to tout. The problem is later when the accomplishment seems sort of secondary in the grand scheme. And by then it's too late, because banners are tough to take down once they're up there.

I'm not sure this really applies to being the #1 ranked team in the country at the end of the regular season, though, since that's fairly obviously a more difficult task than winning the ACC tournament.

Olympic Fan
04-01-2015, 01:03 PM
I have no problem with the AP #1 banners. They do celebrate a major accomplishment for a team.

I would have a problem -- a big problem -- if they were hung in the end zone with our National Championship banners and constructed to look like our championship banners. To me, THAT would be like trying to sneak in a phony national title.

It's like the ridiculous Helms banner in Chapel Hill. I could see hanging a banner for that honor, but not creating a banner that looks as if it were another real national championship banner -- and hanging it side-by-side with their real national title banners.

Duke's No. 1 AP Poll banners are hung off to the side. Nobody could confuse them with our national championship banners. They are what they are ... and that's fine.

Henderson
04-01-2015, 01:06 PM
I'm not sure this really applies to being the #1 ranked team in the country at the end of the regular season, though, since that's fairly obviously a more difficult task than winning the ACC tournament.

The same could be said of a #3 ranking at the end of the season. Banner worthy?

I'm not calling out any particular banner at anyone's school, but just suggesting that we need to take a long view. Some banners represent more meaningful accomplishments than others. And a school needs to decide what's banner-worthy. Otherwise you have lots of banners, and they are all of the same size without being all of the same significance.

Indoor66
04-01-2015, 01:08 PM
I have no problem with the AP #1 banners. They do celebrate a major accomplishment for a team.

I would have a problem -- a big problem -- if they were hung in the end zone with our National Championship banners and constructed to look like our championship banners. To me, THAT would be like trying to sneak in a phony national title.

It's like the ridiculous Helms banner in Chapel Hill. I could see hanging a banner for that honor, but not creating a banner that looks as if it were another real national championship banner -- and hanging it side-by-side with their real national title banners.

Duke's No. 1 AP Poll banners are hung off to the side. Nobody could confuse them with our nautional championship banners. They are what they are ... and that's fine.

I agree with your points. In addition, I see the banners as an additional recruiting tool. Kids are often impressed by such things.

Henderson
04-01-2015, 01:11 PM
I have no problem with the AP #1 banners. They do celebrate a major accomplishment for a team.

I would have a problem -- a big problem -- if they were hung in the end zone with our National Championship banners and constructed to look like our championship banners. To me, THAT would be like trying to sneak in a phony national title.

It's like the ridiculous Helms banner in Chapel Hill. I could see hanging a banner for that honor, but not creating a banner that looks as if it were another real national championship banner -- and hanging it side-by-side with their real national title banners.

Duke's No. 1 AP Poll banners are hung off to the side. Nobody could confuse them with our national championship banners. They are what they are ... and that's fine.

How do you distinguish between a banner that champions Duke's final poll position and the Helms banner at UNC-CH? I guess there's the fact that UNC-CH claims it as a "national championship." Maybe that's enough to sustain the distinction. Do people really think that the positioning of the banners somehow saves the day?

jimsumner
04-01-2015, 01:58 PM
How do you distinguish between a banner that champions Duke's final poll position and the Helms banner at UNC-CH? I guess there's the fact that UNC-CH claims it as a "national championship." Maybe that's enough to sustain the distinction. Do people really think that the positioning of the banners somehow saves the day?

Duke's number one AP banners actually reflect the opinions of the AP voters in the final AP poll of the season.

The Helms trophies were the opinion of one person years after the fact.

Duvall
04-01-2015, 03:03 PM
Perhaps it's just me, but I never figured out why we hang AP #1 ranking banners. I suppose it represents a sort of "national championship," but that championship is decided by a group of reporters, not basketball players. Further, it seems to highlight years when we underperformed in the tournament, and there are quite a few of those banners up there. Being a name brand program, Duke gets the benefit of the doubt in poll rankings.

My guess is that this is a by-product of 1986, when Duke wanted to do something for the team that had established itself as the best in the country but narrowly missed winning the title, at a time when Duke had not won a team national championship in any sport.

Henderson
04-01-2015, 03:08 PM
Duke's number one AP banners actually reflect the opinions of the AP voters in the final AP poll of the season.

The Helms trophies were the opinion of one person years after the fact.

Well that's better. It was a group rather than a corporation. Totally different things.

lotusland
04-01-2015, 05:33 PM
Wonder if Duke would raise an NIT Championship Banner should they ever win one. Maybe somewhere low profile in Cameron like say the men's room?:)

turnandburn55
04-01-2015, 06:17 PM
See if you can remember who the #1 was at the end of the season the last 10 years or so? I had a hard time...

2014- Florida
2013- Gonzaga
2012- Kentucky
2011- Ohio State
2010- Kansas
2009- Louisville
2008- Cheaters
2007- Ohio State
2006- Duke
2005- Illinois
2004- Stanford
2003- Kentucky

Some of these (2010 Kansas) were legitimately good teams who were dominant all season and then choked in the tourney. But seems like a few of these were years in which there had been a lot of movement throughout the season and just happened to be on top the week the final AP poll was released, with the outcome of "best team" very much in doubt.

-jk
04-01-2015, 06:23 PM
My guess is that this is a by-product of 1986, when Duke wanted to do something for the team that had established itself as the best in the country but narrowly missed winning the title, at a time when Duke had not won a team national championship in any sport.

I think we may have had a soccer championship by then. Barely.

-jk

Olympic Fan
04-01-2015, 06:24 PM
How do you distinguish between a banner that champions Duke's final poll position and the Helms banner at UNC-CH? I guess there's the fact that UNC-CH claims it as a "national championship." Maybe that's enough to sustain the distinction. Do people really think that the positioning of the banners somehow saves the day?

That's EXACTLY the distinction I make.

Duke doesn't try to fool anybody with their No. 1 banners -- they represent exactly what they say they are.

UNC has turned its Helms Banner into a faux national championship banner -- in the same size, style and format -- and same place as their five NCAA championship banners.

The fact that the Helms "championship" was awarded in 1942 -- not by a panel or basketball experts or even by one expert, but by an executive of the baking company, acting alone -- just emphasizes how phony the banner is.

PS If Duke does ever win an NIT championship, I would not mind seeing a banner go up -- provided its not in a position to be confused with the national championship banners.

I will note that Duke has never hung a fourth-place NIT banner (which Duke "won" in 1971) ... as opposed to our neighbors who once hung a 3rd place NIT banner from 1973.

Duvall
04-01-2015, 06:28 PM
I think we may have had a soccer championship by then. Barely.

-jk

The soccer championship didn't come until December 1986. I don't know when the AP #1 banner was hung, though - I assume it was the summer of 1986, though it could have been later.

cspan37421
04-01-2015, 06:34 PM
I think we may have had a soccer championship by then. Barely.

-jk

Not quite. I was at Duke from '85-'89 and the 37-3 team came first, my freshman year (3/31/86). The NCAA soccer title came 12/13/86, my soph year.

And there was a strong undercurrent of honoring the basketball team's then-record 37-win season beyond the ACC title and regional championship. In fact, the yearbook had a fold-out spread captioned "the winningest team in college basketball history" or something like that. While technically true, "winningest team" always felt like an odd-duck honorific. But that and the more-contemporary Chronicle coverage reflected, IMO, as much wound-licking as genuine pride in their accomplishment.

Indoor66
04-01-2015, 06:44 PM
I think we may have had a soccer championship by then. Barely.

-jk

No, we had not per Go Duke:

"The national championship game was scheduled 10:30pm EST on December 13 in the Tacoma Dome in Tacoma, Washington. Before a crowd of 4,652, the tenth-ranked Blue Devils faced the 12th-ranked Akron Zips, marking the first time either team had played on Superturf. “At times it looked like a ping-pong match, the ball went so fast,” Rennie said afterward. “A lot of times the turf affected the play.” (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=285808)

-jk
04-01-2015, 08:25 PM
Not quite. I was at Duke from '85-'89 and the 37-3 team came first, my freshman year (3/31/86). The NCAA soccer title came 12/13/86, my soph year.

And there was a strong undercurrent of honoring the basketball team's then-record 37-win season beyond the ACC title and regional championship. In fact, the yearbook had a fold-out spread captioned "the winningest team in college basketball history" or something like that. While technically true, "winningest team" always felt like an odd-duck honorific. But that and the more-contemporary Chronicle coverage reflected, IMO, as much wound-licking as genuine pride in their accomplishment.

Damn! The older I get, the more the years run together...

-jk

killerleft
04-01-2015, 08:45 PM
I agree with your points. In addition, I see the banners as an additional recruiting tool. Kids are often impressed by such things.

I am impressed by them as well! They sure beat those weird baffles that used to hang up there.:)

Indoor66
04-01-2015, 08:58 PM
I am impressed by them as well! They sure beat those weird baffles that used to hang up there.:)

Yeah. The baffles were designed to suppress sound! Now some Dumps pipe in sound.

-jk
04-01-2015, 09:07 PM
I am impressed by them as well! They sure beat those weird baffles that used to hang up there.:)

What? Can't hear you!?!

-jk

Reilly
04-01-2015, 09:11 PM
It could be seen as a little odd that we have all the banners and whatnot in Cameron now that we have a Duke basketball museum right next door.

What if we took the banners and jerseys down -- all of them. Let the museum serve the museum function, and let Cameron be Cameron -- a wild, raucous basketball arena. Just a thought.

I think Miss Manners used to say you don't put family photos in the public/entertaining rooms like the living room -- you keep those in the bedrooms and more personal upper parts of the house, and keep the living room just for entertaining and hosting visitors.

Let the museum be the museum, and let Cameron just be a place for teams to come play hoops in and lose.

-jk
04-01-2015, 09:17 PM
It could be seen as a little odd that we have all the banners and whatnot in Cameron now that we have a Duke basketball museum right next door.

What if we took the banners and jerseys down -- all of them. Let the museum serve the museum function, and let Cameron be Cameron -- a wild, raucous basketball arena. Just a thought.

I think Miss Manners used to say you don't put family photos in the public/entertaining rooms like the living room -- you keep those in the bedrooms and more personal upper parts of the house, and keep the living room just for entertaining and hosting visitors.

Let the museum be the museum, and let Cameron just be a place for teams to come play hoops in and lose.

Interesting. But Cameron is more than the living room. It's a cathedral (as one u-grad's thesis posited, quite reasonably).

It's a place to celebrate Duke-dom. Let it be! (as the Beatles suggested)

Anyway, why shouldn't the Duke basketball teams honor their past in their hoops cathedral?

-jk

Duvall
04-01-2015, 09:21 PM
It could be seen as a little odd that we have all the banners and whatnot in Cameron now that we have a Duke basketball museum right next door.

What if we took the banners and jerseys down -- all of them. Let the museum serve the museum function, and let Cameron be Cameron -- a wild, raucous basketball arena. Just a thought.

I think Miss Manners used to say you don't put family photos in the public/entertaining rooms like the living room -- you keep those in the bedrooms and more personal upper parts of the house, and keep the living room just for entertaining and hosting visitors.

Let the museum be the museum, and let Cameron just be a place for teams to come play hoops in and lose.

That ceiling is 75 years old! We don't want anyone to actually see it.

cspan37421
04-01-2015, 09:31 PM
It could be seen as a little odd that we have all the banners and whatnot in Cameron now that we have a Duke basketball museum right next door.

What if we took the banners and jerseys down -- all of them. Let the museum serve the museum function, and let Cameron be Cameron -- a wild, raucous basketball arena. Just a thought.

I think Miss Manners used to say you don't put family photos in the public/entertaining rooms like the living room -- you keep those in the bedrooms and more personal upper parts of the house, and keep the living room just for entertaining and hosting visitors.

Let the museum be the museum, and let Cameron just be a place for teams to come play hoops in and lose.

One reason to keep them in Cameron is that they're highlighted on television broadcasts of Duke basketball games (during time-outs, pre-game, etc). Recruits see them.

Reilly
04-01-2015, 09:37 PM
Cathedrals serve a teaching function with their art.

So take down the banners -- those are more akin to felt wall-hangings with a wooden rod at the top and bottom hung in some circa 1977 round church -- and instead install statuary and carvings to tell the story of Duke basketball: have a flying buttress K nose, a rose motif engraved in one ceiling corner for Tinkerbell, a relief of cowering ACC fans huddling together and looking up at a powerful cloud (Patrick Davidson), "Here's to never forgetting tonight" and "Just be you" carved in the walls, a fuel tank on "E" for Lefty, some sort of thing that is the opposite of Bernini's columns -- where instead of them all lining up and certain ones disappearing behind others, they all seems to jump up and down pogo-stick-style like the Crazies ....

-jk
04-01-2015, 09:43 PM
Cathedrals serve a teaching function with their art.

So take down the banners -- those are more akin to felt wall-hangings with a wooden rod at the top and bottom hung in some circa 1977 round church -- and instead install statuary and carvings to tell the story of Duke basketball: have a flying buttress K nose, a rose motif engraved in one ceiling corner for Tinkerbell, a relief of cowering ACC fans huddling together and looking up at a powerful cloud (Patrick Davidson), "Here's to never forgetting tonight" and "Just be you" carved in the walls, a fuel tank on "E" for Lefty, some sort of thing that is the opposite of Bernini's columns -- where instead of them all lining up and certain ones disappearing behind others, they all seems to jump up and down pogo-stick-style like the Crazies ....

Um... Yeah. OK. (Not sure where to go. Mickie? AD?)

-jk

msdukie
04-01-2015, 11:42 PM
My guess is that this is a by-product of 1986, when Duke wanted to do something for the team that had established itself as the best in the country but narrowly missed winning the title, at a time when Duke had not won a team national championship in any sport.

From everything I've read in the past, though no one has ever come out and said it, that is my understanding as well. It just blossomed from there. Also, if you go back to the late 1980s, you will see that we did hang an Big Apple Preseason NIT championship banner for 1985-6 (including the apple with a bite missing); it was down a few years later.

Edouble
04-02-2015, 02:43 AM
My guess is that this is a by-product of 1986, when Duke wanted to do something for the team that had established itself as the best in the country but narrowly missed winning the title, at a time when Duke had not won a team national championship in any sport.

Well, they did get to hang their Final Four banner!