Intensity and career length

[MarkD83]

What struck me about the 30 for 30 "Why I hate..." program last night is what happened to Christian Laettner in his last game. In the first half of the 1992 Nat'l Championship which was his last game, he all of the sudden came out and lost his characteristic intensity. Bobby Hurley then chewed him out at half-time to get his head back in the game.

This may be bad karma to talk about right now so mods please close or delete this thread if necessary, but I do mention it as a cautionary tail. Duke teams are all very close-knit, which is the way Coach K wants things to be and it leads to lots of success. However, does this trait then cause a loss of focus and intensity in the players near the end of their careers. This is not "choking under pressure" but more of an over thinking of one's situation and a fear of losing the close-knit sense of team. Even Christian Laettner uncharacteristically went into this funk and their is no way one could ever think he ever "choked" at anything in his Duke career.

So, is this the cause of early losses last year, in 2012 and what happended vs Notre Dame in the ACC semis?

If so perhaps the advice to give the this year's team going into the NCAAs is what Coach K said to the 2010 team: "Be yourself" and the end of your Duke playing career is not the end of being part of the Duke family.

[Neals384]

What struck me about the 30 for 30 "Why I hate..." program last night is what happened to Christian Laettner in his last game. In the first half of the 1992 Nat'l Championship which was his last game, he all of the sudden came out and lost his characteristic intensity. Bobby Hurley then chewed him out at half-time to get his head back in the game.

This may be bad karma to talk about right now so mods please close or delete this thread if necessary, but I do mention it as a cautionary tail. Duke teams are all very close-knit, which is the way Coach K wants things to be and it leads to lots of success. However, does this trait then cause a loss of focus and intensity in the players near the end of their careers. This is not "choking under pressure" but more of an over thinking of one's situation and a fear of losing the close-knit sense of team. Even Christian Laettner uncharacteristically went into this funk and their is no way one could ever think he ever "choked" at anything in his Duke career.

So, is this the cause of early losses last year, in 2012 and what happended vs Notre Dame in the ACC semis?

If so perhaps the advice to give the this year's team going into the NCAAs is what Coach K said to the 2010 team: "Be yourself" and the end of your Duke playing career is not the end of being part of the Duke family.

This could be a huge factor, but I think more in the earlier rounds. In the championship, every senior/OAD knows it is their last game. How about a higher seed, trailing in an early round and facing a possible upset? At halftime, do they ponder, "h**y s**t, if we don't turn this around, this is my last game." Some might be motivated by the realization, but others may lose focus or simply try to do too much.

[flyingdutchdevil]

This could be a huge factor, but I think more in the earlier rounds. In the championship, every senior/OAD knows it is their last game. How about a higher seed, trailing in an early round and facing a possible upset? At halftime, do they ponder, "h**y s**t, if we don't turn this around, this is my last game." Some might be motivated by the realization, but others may lose focus or simply try to do too much.

I think you're right, but it's important to know that it is rarely the "last game" for a Duke player. Most go to play professionally, whether it's in the NBA, the D-League, or Europe. For the mid-majors, it is more often than not their last true competitive game. The players guaranteed/expected to leave this year - Quinn, Okafor, Winslow, and Tyus - all have futures playing basketball. So, it may be their last "college basketball game," but it's nowhere near their last competitive game.

[MarkD83]

I think you're right, but it's important to know that it is rarely the "last game" for a Duke player. Most go to play professionally, whether it's in the NBA, the D-League, or Europe. For the mid-majors, it is more often than not their last true competitive game. The players guaranteed/expected to leave this year - Quinn, Okafor, Winslow, and Tyus - all have futures playing basketball. So, it may be their last "college basketball game," but it's nowhere near their last competitive game.

I was referring to their last game as a Duke player, not their last game ever.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I was referring to their last game as a Duke player, not their last game ever.

I understand the distinction, but maybe they are interlinked. I'm sure these kids love Duke, but I think they love basketball even more. Duke is a 4-year (at most) journey; basketball is decades long (and may pros often continue with basketball after their playing careers).

There is a basketball light at the end of the Duke tunnel, a light which doesn't exist for most mid-major schools. For them, it may really be the last time ever.

[Neals384]

I understand the distinction, but maybe they are interlinked. I'm sure these kids love Duke, but I think they love basketball even more. Duke is a 4-year (at most) journey; basketball is decades long (and may pros often continue with basketball after their playing careers).

There is a basketball light at the end of the Duke tunnel, a light which doesn't exist for most mid-major schools. For them, it may really be the last time ever.

Well I think the OP was building on the sense of camaraderie and friendship with this group of players, not just the school, not just the coaches. Especially for Tyus and Jahlil, who have been teammates for a long time and may never be teammates again.

[Des Esseintes]

This theory sounds like a great explanation for why K has won just four national titles. If only he understood proper motivation, who knows? We might have found real success.

[dukelifer]

What struck me about the 30 for 30 "Why I hate..." program last night is what happened to Christian Laettner in his last game. In the first half of the 1992 Nat'l Championship which was his last game, he all of the sudden came out and lost his characteristic intensity. Bobby Hurley then chewed him out at half-time to get his head back in the game.

This may be bad karma to talk about right now so mods please close or delete this thread if necessary, but I do mention it as a cautionary tail. Duke teams are all very close-knit, which is the way Coach K wants things to be and it leads to lots of success. However, does this trait then cause a loss of focus and intensity in the players near the end of their careers. This is not "choking under pressure" but more of an over thinking of one's situation and a fear of losing the close-knit sense of team. Even Christian Laettner uncharacteristically went into this funk and their is no way one could ever think he ever "choked" at anything in his Duke career.

So, is this the cause of early losses last year, in 2012 and what happended vs Notre Dame in the ACC semis?

If so perhaps the advice to give the this year's team going into the NCAAs is what Coach K said to the 2010 team: "Be yourself" and the end of your Duke playing career is not the end of being part of the Duke family.

In any tournament you can come up with all sorts of reasons for why they did or did not win. Players get sick- they are human. Players have off nights. They are human. Players can over think. They are human. Players can play out of the heads for one night - they are human. What makes basketball interesting is that the difference between the best player in the world and the 300th best player in the world is not as big as one might imagine. All players effectively possess the same basic skill set. A good player can have a spectacular night and a great player can miss every shot. Also games at this time of year are usually won or lost on the ability to execute in critical moments. Game pressure is real and some players handle it better than others - some wilt- some play their best ball. Laettner was a great example of a player who played well under game pressure- Josh McRoberts was an example of one that did not. But there is no denying that players can overthink the moment and it can affect performance- perhaps for a half- perhaps for a game. The key to winning a championship is to have players who can step up when a teammate is not having a great game. If you look back at Duke Championship runs - you will see this. Jay Williams struggled in the NC game and Dunleavy stepped up. The 2010 team had many different players step up during the run - including Freshman Andre Dawkins. Winning a championship is hard even with great teams. A lot of things have to happen and sometimes the other team executes down the stretch and that is the ball game- see 1999. We can only hope that this Duke team can go on a magical run of their own.

[captmojo]

Even Christian Laettner uncharacteristically went into this funk and their is no way one could ever think he ever "choked" at anything in his Duke career.



In retrospect, there is one "choking" incident he went through that I'm glad for. Missing those free throws at the end of the Pre-Season NIT Championship game against Arizona, early on in his career. After this disappointment he worked at technique, to the point of being the person that opponents did not want to foul at the end of games again. His free throw prowess was well known.

[royalblue]

I remember this being a late regular season game.

[captmojo]

I remember this being a late regular season game.

You are probably right. I might not know what underwear I was wearing yesterday if I didn't still hav'em on. ;)


But I know it was at MSG.

[Kedsy]

You are probably right. I might not know what underwear I was wearing yesterday if I didn't still hav'em on. ;)


But I know it was at MSG.

Actually, it was at the Meadowlands. I was at the game. The date was February 26, 1989 (I looked that part up).

[Kedsy]

Laettner was a great example of a player who played well under game pressure- Josh McRoberts was an example of one that did not.

It never ceases to amaze me how much Duke fans rag on Josh McRoberts (and Austin Rivers, and to a somewhat lesser extent, Jabari Parker).

Here are Josh McRoberts's stats for his two tournament games of 2007:

NC State (ACC tourney): 17 points (8 for 13 shooting), 6 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 steals;
VCU (NCAA tourney): 22 points (7 for 14 shooting), 12 rebounds, 4 assists (just 1 turnover), 5 (!) blocks.

His season stats for 2006-07 were: 13.0 ppg, 7.9 rpg, 3.5 apg, 2.5 bpg, 1.2 spg, meaning his post-season performances were significantly better than normal for him.

In 2006, JJ and Shelden took more than half our team's shots (literally: 1053 shots out of 2011), so McBob's scoring stats are a little down, but here are his tournament performances in 2006:

ACCT
-----
Miami: 10 points (3 of 8), 7 rebounds, 1 assist, 2 blocks;
Wake: 13 points (5 of 9), 8 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal, 1 block;
BC: 16 points (5 of 5), 5 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal;
Southern (not really a big game): 8 points (2 of 3), 4 rebounds, 4 blocks, 1 steal;
GW: 14 points (4 of 5), 13 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal; 2 blocks;
LSU: 9 points (4 of 10), 10 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal, 1 block.

His season stats for 2005-06 were: 8.7 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 1.5 apg, 1.3 bpg, 1.1 spg, so again his post-season results far exceeded his normal performances.

So, counter to what you've posited, by the stats it would seem Josh McRoberts stepped way up in the big games, rather than down. His team lost, and we've all heard the rumors that he wasn't well liked, but give the guy some credit.

[Des Esseintes]

It never ceases to amaze me how much Duke fans rag on Josh McRoberts (and Austin Rivers, and to a somewhat lesser extent, Jabari Parker).

Here are Josh McRoberts's stats for his two tournament games of 2007:

NC State (ACC tourney): 17 points (8 for 13 shooting), 6 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 steals;
VCU (NCAA tourney): 22 points (7 for 14 shooting), 12 rebounds, 4 assists (just 1 turnover), 5 (!) blocks.

His season stats for 2006-07 were: 13.0 ppg, 7.9 rpg, 3.5 apg, 2.5 bpg, 1.2 spg, meaning his post-season performances were significantly better than normal for him.

In 2006, JJ and Shelden took more than half our team's shots (literally: 1053 shots out of 2011), so McBob's scoring stats are a little down, but here are his tournament performances in 2006:

ACCT
-----
Miami: 10 points (3 of 8), 7 rebounds, 1 assist, 2 blocks;
Wake: 13 points (5 of 9), 8 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal, 1 block;
BC: 16 points (5 of 5), 5 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal;
Southern (not really a big game): 8 points (2 of 3), 4 rebounds, 4 blocks, 1 steal;
GW: 14 points (4 of 5), 13 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal; 2 blocks;
LSU: 9 points (4 of 10), 10 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal, 1 block.

His season stats for 2005-06 were: 8.7 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 1.5 apg, 1.3 bpg, 1.1 spg, so again his post-season results far exceeded his normal performances.

So, counter to what you've posited, by the stats it would seem Josh McRoberts stepped way up in the big games, rather than down. His team lost, and we've all heard the rumors that he wasn't well liked, but give the guy some credit.
It would be just like McRoberts to put up great numbers to make it *seem* as though he was helping his team and play hard. But Real Duke Fans know he was a sleeper agent, sent to destroy from within. They can read his soul through a TV screen and thus determine his non-gamerishness. Someday, a genius in law enforcement will gather together the very finest Real Duke Fans to identify cold case murderers among the general population.

[rasputin]

Actually, it was at the Meadowlands. I was at the game. The date was February 26, 1989 (I looked that part up).

I thought I remembered that as being Meadowlands. The other thing I remember about that day was that Richard Nixon was in the stands and he offered Christian Laettner some encouragement after the game.

[dukelifer]

It never ceases to amaze me how much Duke fans rag on Josh McRoberts (and Austin Rivers, and to a somewhat lesser extent, Jabari Parker).

Here are Josh McRoberts's stats for his two tournament games of 2007:

NC State (ACC tourney): 17 points (8 for 13 shooting), 6 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 steals;
VCU (NCAA tourney): 22 points (7 for 14 shooting), 12 rebounds, 4 assists (just 1 turnover), 5 (!) blocks.

His season stats for 2006-07 were: 13.0 ppg, 7.9 rpg, 3.5 apg, 2.5 bpg, 1.2 spg, meaning his post-season performances were significantly better than normal for him.

In 2006, JJ and Shelden took more than half our team's shots (literally: 1053 shots out of 2011), so McBob's scoring stats are a little down, but here are his tournament performances in 2006:

ACCT
-----
Miami: 10 points (3 of 8), 7 rebounds, 1 assist, 2 blocks;
Wake: 13 points (5 of 9), 8 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal, 1 block;
BC: 16 points (5 of 5), 5 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal;
Southern (not really a big game): 8 points (2 of 3), 4 rebounds, 4 blocks, 1 steal;
GW: 14 points (4 of 5), 13 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal; 2 blocks;
LSU: 9 points (4 of 10), 10 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal, 1 block.

His season stats for 2005-06 were: 8.7 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 1.5 apg, 1.3 bpg, 1.1 spg, so again his post-season results far exceeded his normal performances.

So, counter to what you've posited, by the stats it would seem Josh McRoberts stepped way up in the big games, rather than down. His team lost, and we've all heard the rumors that he wasn't well liked, but give the guy some credit.

Well I was not diminishing McRoberts but simply how he performed in critical end of game moments. I don't have the games at my ready but there were a number of games where he did not make the last shot or free throw. Laettner was exceptional- Josh not so much. Not sure why he came to mind. But I was not commenting on his body or work. If anything I have been a McRoberts defender over the years.

[Neals384]

What makes basketball interesting is that the difference between the best player in the world and the 300th best player in the world is not as big as one might imagine. All players effectively possess the same basic skill set.

Really? Consider big men Jahlil, MP3 and Kaminsky. Their skillsets are noway, nohow the same, or even similar. That's what makes the game interesting!

[dukelifer]

Really? Consider big men Jahlil, MP3 and Kaminsky. Their skillsets are noway, nohow the same, or even similar. That's what makes the game interesting!

Perhaps I overstated this but I was trying to point out that bball players all dribble, shoot, pass and rebound - the basic skill sets. The players in the top 300 may be better at one or more of these- but they all need to use these skills. Unlike football- where a D- End and Quarterback do very different things. I was trying to make the point that if you look at the a list like this

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/slam_500_greatest.html

Is there that big a difference between Michael Jordan and Glen Rice? So perhaps I should have said the difference is not that great for a given position on the floor. BTW- I would love for MP3 to be in the best players in the world. Not sure he is there yet.

[captmojo]

I knew I could be corrected here. Thanks y'all!

Feel sorry to have to lose that game. But glad it happened the way it did.