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View Full Version : ACCT Semis: Notre Dame 74, Duke 64 Post-Game Thread



JBDuke
03-13-2015, 11:50 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-13-2015, 11:52 PM
Ouch. Need forty minutes of ball instead of twenty-five.

NYBri
03-13-2015, 11:52 PM
Brey game plan: don't let Tyus Cook best us.

Awful game.

Learn from it. Next play.

Lulu
03-13-2015, 11:52 PM
props to whoever can find anything positive to say about this one. this thread will be closed soon no doubt...

CDu
03-13-2015, 11:52 PM
Well, we deserved to lose. And we did.

The question all this season has been the inconsistency of focus. Tonight it showed up again. Hopefully we magically flip on the lightswitch and keep it on for 6 games in a row.

jhmoss1812
03-13-2015, 11:53 PM
Tough loss guys. Not a good night for our teams.

Can we play a third place game?

Billy Dat
03-13-2015, 11:53 PM
Horrendous first half on both ends, especially on defense.

We had our chances to steal it, many opportunities to make plays in the final 4 minutes that could have turned the tide. Cook couldn't buy a bucket, the first time in a long time he didn't deliver a huge 3 in a big spot, and he got decent looks.

They let Jah get his, but his two FT misses that could have cut it to 2 were really big.

Someone please produce the stat that shows our ACC tournament performance doesn't correlate with our NCAA performance.

Not sure what to take away from this game, so I'll choose to move on.

WakeDevil
03-13-2015, 11:53 PM
Let Okafor ride the bus back to Durham. As for the other scholarship players....

This is just like the year Duke and UNC had a chance to meet in the national title game.

Why does anyone think this team could compete with Kentucky?

Duke79UNLV77
03-13-2015, 11:53 PM
The young guys thought if they beat ND by 30 last time and were up 27 at half last night, ND would just roll over and not compete tonight. At worst, Duke is the 2nd best team in the country and can win it all, but they need to learn that if they don't bring it for 40 minutes every night they can be home very, very early. Sadly, I think Quinn competed, but he just missed a lot of open looks tonight.

DUKIE V(A)
03-13-2015, 11:54 PM
Duke guards: Quinn, Tyus, Grayson, and Matt 7-32 combined.
That won't happen often.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-13-2015, 11:54 PM
Guards were non-existent. Need to get our heads right quick.

FerryFor50
03-13-2015, 11:55 PM
Overconfident in the first half, then shell shocked after the first 5 minutes.

15 point deficit at half should have been more.

Credit Duke for fighting back, but they couldn't get out of their own way tonight. Bad D. Bad O, other than Okafor. Winslow came around in the 2nd but it was too little, too late.

They fought and had a chance but kept making bad decisions on O and then the Irish hit another miracle clutch shot to ice it.

I think Duke fought back enough to stay in the 1 seed conversation. Glad the loss happened now and not in the NCAA first weekend though.

Watch ND barf in the gutter tomorrow against the Heels.

TruBlu
03-13-2015, 11:55 PM
We get one more days rest before the NCAA Tourney.:mad:

Channing
03-13-2015, 11:55 PM
I think nd / vt type squad just makes us uncomfortable. The spread floor and dribble drive offense is clearly a weakness. Fortunately (a) very few teams have the personnel nd does and (b) we can and have beat it.

We looked like we were playing in quicksand the first half; we will learn from it. Grayson struggled but i was glad to see justice bounce back so strongly.

Chicken Little
03-13-2015, 11:55 PM
Let Okafor ride the bus back to Durham. As for the other scholarship players....

This is just like the year Duke and UNC had a chance to meet in the national title game.

Why does anyone think this team could compete with Kentucky?

He can ride the bus after he puts up 1,000 free throws.

g-money
03-13-2015, 11:57 PM
Aargh, I was becoming so bullish about our chances in the (NCAA) tournament this year...and then we have a game like this one that gives me flashbacks to the early exits of the recent past. It feels like a profit warning on my favorite stock.

What will Duke's fortune be over the next few weeks? Well, I now suggest that we will lose in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th round - or else, we're going to the Final Four.

Acymetric
03-13-2015, 11:57 PM
I guess some credit has to go to the Notre Dame defense on some level? We weren't just missing open looks from three...pretty much all of them looked bad before they were released.

Channing
03-13-2015, 11:57 PM
Let Okafor ride the bus back to Durham. As for the other scholarship players....

This is just like the year Duke and UNC had a chance to meet in the national title game.

Why does anyone think this team could compete with Kentucky?

Why can't we compete with Kentucky? By heir offense is known to stagnate at times and they aren't a spread it out team this year. I actually think we match up well with them.

kshepinthehouse
03-13-2015, 11:57 PM
Horrendous first half on both ends, especially on defense.

We had our chances to steal it, many opportunities to make plays in the final 4 minutes that could have turned the tide. Cook couldn't buy a bucket, the first time in a long time he didn't deliver a huge 3 in a big spot, and he got decent looks.

They let Jah get his, but his two FT misses that could have cut it to 2 were really big.

Someone please produce the stat that shows our ACC tournament performance doesn't correlate with our NCAA performance.

Not sure what to take away from this game, so I'll choose to move on.

Didn't like the in your face so you can blow by me defense. We had problems executing that earlier in the year and did tonight. Although, they are so creative with the ball and they have so many good ball handlers I'm not sure what they should have done. Seems like nerves were what got us this game with the early turnovers.

BlueandWhite
03-13-2015, 11:57 PM
Let Okafor ride the bus back to Durham. As for the other scholarship players....

This is just like the year Duke and UNC had a chance to meet in the national title game.

Why does anyone think this team could compete with Kentucky?

And...why did anyone think that Duke could compete with UNLV in 1991?

Still my all-time favorite Duke game. Hands down.

fgb
03-13-2015, 11:58 PM
3-17 from he arc, 7-14 from the ft line. just failure of our own making.

KandG
03-13-2015, 11:58 PM
Super disappointing loss. Game was basically lost in the first half (and the opening minutes of the second, when the lead ballooned to 17 because Justise and Matt were sitting and Grayson proved not quite ready to handle the pressure).

Notre Dame's not the first team to focus more on the outside shooters than on Jah, but they had the best execution. Also, that defensive strategy is a lot more effective if we're not getting anything from Justise - his driving ability is really key for opening up seams in the defense when it's tilted toward Jah and the shooters. But he started horribly and woke up a little too late.

Glass half full then: the comeback was mildly encouraging and it isn't the worst thing in the world to avoid three games in three days capped off by another emotional game with UNC. Plus the bad taste of a game like this can get through to young players like nothing else.

Sad that Quinn doesn't get an ACC title, but unfortunately, he struggled as badly or worse than any other Duke player out there. We need more from him in his final NCAA tournament, and I expect we'll get it.

weezie
03-13-2015, 11:58 PM
"crickets"

Kjeffrey
03-13-2015, 11:59 PM
He can ride the bus after he puts up 1,000 free throws.

My nine year old said "I shoot better than 50% from the line."

jipops
03-13-2015, 11:59 PM
Why does anyone think this team could compete with Kentucky?

Because invalid hype machines are fun for the media.

These are risks of a freshman dominated team. Zero focus. And this looked like a very inexperienced team tonight.

The cheats a lock for tomorrow as ND lays an egg. It won't even be close.

fgb
03-14-2015, 12:00 AM
My nine year old said "I shoot better than 50% from the line."

i did too, when i was nine. and 40 years later, i still do.

Dukeford
03-14-2015, 12:00 AM
He can ride the bus after he puts up 1,000 free throws.

Surprised to see he's still releasing free throws off the palm of his hand at this point in the season, and his career.
Fingertips...fingertips, is nobody working with him?

Acymetric
03-14-2015, 12:00 AM
My nine year old said "I shoot better than 50% from the line."

Shooting under 60% from the line baffles me. It is one thing to not be a good free throw shooter, but I don't understand how someone as far along and advanced as Jah can be so bad.

Having said that, Jah's free throws are not what cost us the game, or at least not the only contributing factor.

Also don't get why people keep penciling *nc in as the auto-champion. See no reason why Notre Dame can't beat them other than negativity from frustrated Duke fans assuming ND won't play as well tomorrow as they did today.

uh_no
03-14-2015, 12:01 AM
1) inconsistent play over the course of the game finally bit us in the butt. the diffferences between the two halves was incredible
2) the second half was actually really good until it got to garbage time.
3) the sequence after we got it to 4 epitomized the game. missed FT's, floater for ND as the clock expired, turnover. all game we'd have good possessions and bad ones. IMO the biggest problem was when we got "stuck" around 10 points down....we'd get it to 9, then give up 3-4 easy ones before getting it back within 10. this went on for a good 10 minutes of game time, and then we ran out of time
4) i can't recall more than maybe 1 three point shot i really liked (matt's). Quinn took a lot of "bad" threes. his % off the dribble is far lower than his % off the pass. really unfortunate to see him revert to that kind of play after being a revelation all season.
5) not getting back on D....not sure I've ever seen a duke team seem so lacksidasical getting back on D. Nd would have a defensive rebound under the hoop and end up with a 4-1 break....jeez....did our guys check into a holiday inn express in the meantime? that's what it looked like. ND absolutely anihilated us in transition all night long. and that's not just okafor being potentailly gimpy, the guards were equally culpable...often totally failing to recover after the press
6) i was very impressed with our ability to get it as close as we did.
7) we say "we won't shoot this poorly" you hear it all the time...but in this season, it only takes one game. we gotta be able to get stops when the shots aren't falling and we didn't for much of the game tonight.
8) duke 5-0 in repeat games, 0-1 in repeat repeat games
9) we have way too many wins against top teams to fall off the top line IMO.
10) recoup. lets bring it next week.

hurleyfor3
03-14-2015, 12:01 AM
ND doesn't suck. This wasn't @Wake last year.

But I'd be more sanguine if we hadn't gotten buried in the first half and had taken better advantage of scoring opportunities in the second.

Coballs
03-14-2015, 12:01 AM
Our young team clearly overlooked a veteran and extremely well coached ND team tonight. By the time we woke up, the hole we had dug was too deep to overcome against ND who are talented and were able to keep scoring enough in order to maintain a lead. A very disappointing loss from both a season and program standpoint (no ACC regular season or tournament championship in 4 years) but it don't think that anyone should assume that we're less likely to make a deep run in the NCAA tournament based on this one game.

FerryFor50
03-14-2015, 12:01 AM
Surprised to see he's still releasing free throws off the palm of his hand at this point in the season, and his career.
Fingertips...fingertips, is nobody working with him?

This is one case where having smaller hands would help him.

jv001
03-14-2015, 12:02 AM
I think the tone of the game was set early with Justise's lack of hustle. That's on defense and offense. He didn't look like the same player that had so many double-doubles recently. Like someone said, lack of focus. What were the guys thinking? Was this the first time "I" got in the way of "Team"? I believe it was Seth Greenberg that said Duke's man to man couldn't stop the dribble drive and our zone was giving up the foul line jumper. This sorry lack of effort to begin the game probably cost Duke a #1 seed. But who knows what the idiot committee will do this time around. GoDuke!

mkirsh
03-14-2015, 12:02 AM
Justice is the x-factor for this team - when he plays poorly, like the first half tonight and the late Dec to early Jan stretch, this team struggles. When he plays well, as he has the last 10 or so games and the second half tonight, he brings a dimension that other teams can't stop. He needs to bring it every game and stay out of foul trouble for this team to reach its potential.

#1Duke
03-14-2015, 12:02 AM
Let Okafor ride the bus back to Durham. As for the other scholarship players....

This is just like the year Duke and UNC had a chance to meet in the national title game.

Why does anyone think this team could compete with Kentucky?

Why? Because he scored?? That was NDs game plan. Let Okafor get his and stop everyone else.

Okafor's defense and foul shouting were not good.

I'll give ND some props. They executed a good game plan.

We have some work left to do.

lotusland
03-14-2015, 12:03 AM
This is a pretty good team so I hope they put this loss behind them and advance to the Final Four for Quinn.

Lulu
03-14-2015, 12:03 AM
Sucks to root harder than your team plays. I have new found empathy for fans of other programs (and I always wondered why interest was so quickly lost by them year-after-year)...

Really wanted a shot a Kentucky, wouldn't dare to think that far ahead now; can't even imagine it really.

Kjeffrey
03-14-2015, 12:03 AM
Shooting under 60% from the line baffles me. It is one thing to not be a good free throw shooter, but I don't understand how someone as far along and advanced as Jah can be so bad.

Having said that, Jah's free throws are not what cost us the game, or at least not the only contributing factor.

It is far down the list of what cost us that game. However, it is most definitely a liability. I a agree with you -how does someone become such a dominant player but can't make FTs? Seems like more work at it would lead to an improvement.

jv001
03-14-2015, 12:04 AM
Why? Because he scored?? That was NDs game plan. Let Okafor get his and stop everyone else.

Okafor's defense and foul shouting were not good.

I'll give ND some props. They executed a good game plan.
We have some work left to do.

Mike Brey is a very good coach. He's had two great game plans for Duke this season. GoDuke!

MCFinARL
03-14-2015, 12:04 AM
The young guys thought if they beat ND by 30 last time and were up 27 at half last night, ND would just roll over and not compete tonight. At worst, Duke is the 2nd best team in the country and can win it all, but they need to learn that if they don't bring it for 40 minutes every night they can be home very, very early. Sadly, I think Quinn competed, but he just missed a lot of open looks tonight.

Yes, I think Quinn was trying hard most of the game--but between the fact that he has apparently been sick all week and the fact that he, as a senior who has never hung a banner, probably wanted this a little too hard, he just didn't have his best game tonight, especially on offense. A shame for him.


I guess some credit has to go to the Notre Dame defense on some level? We weren't just missing open looks from three...pretty much all of them looked bad before they were released.

Yes--they get credit for having a good plan--no double teams on Okafor, no killer pass outs for open threes. There were relatively few open threes to be had, and by the time we got some, the players were too cold/rattled to hit them. Ice-in-the-veins/killer instinct Tyus Cook never showed.

rsvman
03-14-2015, 12:05 AM
Inexplicable turning point moments:
1) they throw a bad pass to Grant way out on the perimeter, he bobbles the ball, Matt is grabbing it out of the air, and they call the foul on Matt. I replayed it in slow motion; the two players made no contact at all. That gives Grant two free throws rather than us a chance at a fast-break lay-up. Four point swing.
2) We're down four and Okafor gets the ball just off the blocks. He's backing the defender down for what seems like an almost inevitable bucket, when he's called for a carry? With about 2:20 left in the game they pull out that old chestnut? And about 20 seconds later one of the ND guards dribbles the ball OVER his HEAD and there's no call?

But we lost the game in the first half.

uh_no
03-14-2015, 12:05 AM
Why? Because he scored?? That was NDs game plan. Let Okafor get his and stop everyone else.

Okafor's defense and foul shouting were not good.

I'll give ND some props. They executed a good game plan.

We have some work left to do.

absolutely. the guards didn't adjust to that. and okafor simply isn't a facilitator to know how to get his teammates in the action. i don't think there was a single inside out pass to an open shooter (credit ND). but I think there is a bit of standing around when okafor gets the ball. that has to stop.

Billy Dat
03-14-2015, 12:05 AM
This game and the VT game show you can't depend on him. He is amazing, but his effort on defence sucks sometimes. His FT's suck all the time.

So 2 out of 33 games show you can't depend on him...games where he had 28 and 30 points? I get the disappointment over the free throw shooting and defense, but we need to keep some perspective. If anything, we should have been going to him every time down the court after Auguste fouled out.

FerryFor50
03-14-2015, 12:06 AM
It is far down the list of what cost us that game. However, it is most definitely a liability. I a agree with you -how does someone become such a dominant player but can't make FTs? Seems like more work at it would lead to an improvement.

Why does everyone assume he doesn't work on FTs?

Maybe he's just not very good at them and will never be because of his ginormous hands.

jv001
03-14-2015, 12:06 AM
Sucks to root harder than your team plays. I have new found empathy for fans of other programs (and I always wondered why interest was so quickly lost by them year-after-year)...

Really wanted a shot a Kentucky, wouldn't dare to think that far ahead now; can't even imagine it really.

You might just get your wish if we end up a 2 seed in their region. GoDuke!

Kjeffrey
03-14-2015, 12:06 AM
Why? Because he scored?? That was NDs game plan. Let Okafor get his and stop everyone else.

Okafor's defense and foul shouting were not good.

I'll give ND some props. They executed a good game plan.

We have some work left to do.

We all know Okafor is a gifted player. That is what makes his lack of effort on D and poor FT shooting that much harder to understand. He should have to work hard to improve on those things but it doesn't seem to matter. Because he is so dominant on offense those other shortcomings seem completely overlooked.

#1Duke
03-14-2015, 12:07 AM
It is far down the list of what cost us that game. However, it is most definitely a liability. I a agree with you -how does someone become such a dominant player but can't make FTs? Seems like more work at it would lead to an improvement.

The week in the paint defense in the first half cost us the game. ND drove at will. Who is supposed to be guarding the paint?

FerryFor50
03-14-2015, 12:08 AM
Inexplicable turning point moments:
1) they throw a bad pass to Grant way out on the perimeter, he bobbles the ball, Matt is grabbing it out of the air, and they call the foul on Matt. I replayed it in slow motion; the two players made no contact at all. That gives Grant two free throws rather than us a chance at a fast-break lay-up. Four point swing.
2) We're down four and Okafor gets the ball just off the blocks. He's backing the defender down for what seems like an almost inevitable bucket, when he's called for a carry? With about 2:20 left in the game they pull out that old chestnut? And about 20 seconds later one of the ND guards dribbles the ball OVER his HEAD and there's no call?

But we lost the game in the first half.

Carry was legit, but they never call that. Especially not on Marcus Paige.

The Jones foul was pretty lame.

MCFinARL
03-14-2015, 12:08 AM
Shooting under 60% from the line baffles me. It is one thing to not be a good free throw shooter, but I don't understand how someone as far along and advanced as Jah can be so bad.

Having said that, Jah's free throws are not what cost us the game, or at least not the only contributing factor.

Also don't get why people keep penciling *nc in as the auto-champion. See no reason why Notre Dame can't beat them other than negativity from frustrated Duke fans assuming ND won't play as well tomorrow as they did today.

True--but they were an important contributing factor since they cost us opportunities to cut further into the margin at crucial times.

jipops
03-14-2015, 12:08 AM
I agree with the sentiment that we lost this game in the first half. Officiating was awful. But we should have never let it become a factor.

Billy Dat
03-14-2015, 12:08 AM
absolutely. the guards didn't adjust to that. and okafor simply isn't a facilitator to know how to get his teammates in the action. i don't think there was a single inside out pass to an open shooter (credit ND). but I think there is a bit of standing around when okafor gets the ball. that has to stop.

I don't know, I think he's been an incredible facilitator all year, whizzing pinpoint laser-like passes to shooters. Maybe guys were watching him too much tonight. Plus, he was not being doubled so why should he pass? He was 13-18 from the field. I don't see how we kill Jah for this game, even with the missed FTs and bad D. Our guards kind of stunk tonight, Justise was awful in the first half, and we got little to nothing from the bench...but 28 and 9 Jah, with 7 of those 9 being offensive, is the guy we're dissecting? I don't see it.

fgb
03-14-2015, 12:11 AM
Mike Brey is a very good coach. He's had two great game plans for Duke this season. GoDuke!

twice he planned for us to miss more ft's than they would win by? what a badass coach.

#1Duke
03-14-2015, 12:12 AM
I agree with the sentiment that we lost this game in the first half. Officiating was awful. But we should have never let it become a factor.

Officiating was awful all the way around, not just against us. Okafor got away with some charges and ND had several very questionable calls against them down stretch.

The refs had nothing to do with this loss.

KandG
03-14-2015, 12:12 AM
I don't see how we kill Jah for this game, even with the missed FTs and bad D. Our guards kind of stunk tonight, Justise was awful in the first half, and we got little to nothing from the bench...but 28 and 9 Jah, with 7 of those 9 being offensive, is the guy we're dissecting? I don't see it.

Agree, the focus on Jah's shortcomings is bizarre. Thought the rest of the team let him down tonight until midway through the second half. Also, ND had an outstanding game plan and deserves more credit for their defense.

uh_no
03-14-2015, 12:12 AM
I don't know, I think he's been an incredible facilitator all year, whizzing pinpoint laser-like passes to shooters. Maybe guys were watching him too much tonight. I don't see how we kill Jah for this game, even with the missed FTs and bad D. Our guards kind of stunk tonight, Justise was awful in the first half, and we got little to nothing from the bench...but 28 and 9 Jah, with 7 of those 9 being offensive, is the guy we're dissecting? I don't see it.

yes. but teams have adjusted. he dribbles, and then when he gets double teamed he picks it up, and spends a few seconds holding the ball before passing it out...so the easy thing to do is to double him until he picks it up and then recover.

MCFinARL
03-14-2015, 12:12 AM
I don't know, I think he's been an incredible facilitator all year, whizzing pinpoint laser-like passes to shooters. Maybe guys were watching him too much tonight. I don't see how we kill Jah for this game, even with the missed FTs and bad D. Our guards kind of stunk tonight, Justise was awful in the first half, and we got little to nothing from the bench...but 28 and 9 Jah, with 7 of those 9 being offensive, is the guy we're dissecting? I don't see it.

I agree that Jah is often a good facilitator, and maybe guys were watching him too much, but give some credit to ND's game plan as well--by not doubling Jah they did not leave him any open targets to pass to. Usually tonight going for his own points was his best option.

TampaDuke
03-14-2015, 12:13 AM
Carry was legit, but they never call that. Especially not on Marcus Paige.

The Jones foul was pretty lame.

You could see the lame carry call, or something similar, coming a mile away. It was a makeup call for the offensive foul call that Matt sold 10 seconds earlier.

That said, the refs didn't cost us this game.

Dukeford
03-14-2015, 12:14 AM
Why does everyone assume he doesn't work on FTs?

Maybe he's just not very good at them and will never be because of his ginormous hands.

Connie Hawkins had ginormous hands, 78% career FT percentage.
Julius Erving had ginormous hands, also 78% career FT percentage.
They didn't shoot off the palm of their hand.

rsvman
03-14-2015, 12:15 AM
Carry was legit, but they never call that. Especially not on Marcus Paige.

The Jones foul was pretty lame.

Agree that the carry call was legit. Surprised at the call at that time in the game. And if you're going to call it on one end you have to call it on the other, too.

Maybe I'm the only one who saw the even more obvious carry by a ND player that happened almost immediately after they called the carry on Jah.

Duke 81 LA
03-14-2015, 12:15 AM
I think we are going to find out that Cook was ill or bothered by the ankle. He didn't drive at all and his shot was off balanced.
The dangers of eight players.
Wouldn't be surprised to learn that several players got sick too.
Our losses seem to have a certain similarity. Missed FTs, weak three point shooting and getting lit up by a spread offense. ND is not a team to which you want to be down 10.

Hate to blame the refs, but Jamie Luckie decided he wanted to be the show tonight. ND was in the nouns with 15 minutes to go. Ridiculous.
The poor effort in the first 15 minutes was disappointing. When Kmtook a timeout trailing 2-4 that spoke volumes.

Utley
03-14-2015, 12:15 AM
Tough game - we just couldn't find the A game against a senior laden team we'd face in the Elite Eight - one who has already seen us twice - and we still made it close. It's been an incredible season - the kids are human but all in all have been really special at rising to the occasion about us much as we could hope for.

I'd love to see this team make the final 4 - and as long as our draw is not unlucky I think we have a solid chance. Hopefully it doesn't cost us a 1 and really hope it doesn't make us Kentucky's 2. I am an Eagles fan and am still recovering from a really solid season were all the teams we were fighting against in the playoffs won out and it cost us. Feels like the end of the year has been that way with Wisconsin, Nova and Az. We'll know soon enough.

Rest up boys and stay hungry.

FerryFor50
03-14-2015, 12:15 AM
You could see the lame carry call, or something similar, coming a mile away. It was a makeup call for the offensive foul call that Matt sold 10 seconds earlier.

That said, the refs didn't cost us this game.

Agree. I don't know why people think "bad officiating" and "why we lost" always have to be related. You can have one without the other.

jacone21
03-14-2015, 12:15 AM
We all know Okafor is a gifted player. That is what makes his lack of effort on D and poor FT shooting that much harder to understand. He should have to work hard to improve on those things but it doesn't seem to matter. Because he is so dominant on offense those other shortcomings seem completely overlooked.

He'll probably be better at those things when he's 22. This time last year he was in 12th grade. It's not that hard to understand if you think about it.

SoCalDukeFan
03-14-2015, 12:15 AM
You could see the lame carry call, or something similar, coming a mile away. It was a makeup call for the offensive foul call that Matt sold 10 seconds earlier.

That said, the refs didn't cost us this game.

It was not a well called game but the refs did not cost us the game.

We lost because we came out flat, Winslow was off the first half, we shot poorly and were frequently out hustled. Hard to beat a good team with that going on.

SoCal

#1Duke
03-14-2015, 12:15 AM
twice he planned for us to miss more ft's than they would win by? what a badass coach.

No, he played to let Okafor score and stop everyone else. He told his players to drive and challenge Okafor in the paint knowing that he would not be aggressive because he does not want to foul out. He spread the floor. He did several things that were very smart against a team like us.

You can bet he wasn't planning/hoping we would miss x amount of foul shots.

CoachJ10
03-14-2015, 12:15 AM
Wisconsin was called for 5 fouls...the ENTIRE GAME earlier today. My Wisconsin friends say it is because they "practice not to foul".

Try that with ACC refs and Duke on your jersey.

freshmanjs
03-14-2015, 12:16 AM
Wouldn't be surprised to learn that several players got sick too.


and there it is...after every loss, the team must have been ill. lol (and yes, I know Quinn was sick this week).

Owen Meany
03-14-2015, 12:17 AM
This is one case where having smaller hands would help him.

I have heard this in the past with other big men. Try to hold a tennis ball in your hand and put a proper spin on it. But I don't understand how Okafor has such incredible touch on how shots during the flow of the game. I am afraid it will cost Duke dearly down the line, but I'm not sure that can be done at this point. But despite the fts Okafor kept Duke in the game when no one else seemed ready to go.

UrinalCake
03-14-2015, 12:17 AM
Our guys came out of the gate looking like they expected another easy game. No energy and no hustle. Then when ND started to pull away, we panicked and forced things, which played right into their hands. Mostly though, the problem is that all of their guards could take ours off the dribble at will and get a basket and one over and over and over again. Their guards aren't even that fast or athletic, other than Grant. When we played in Cameron we were able to stay in front of our guys and also guard the passing lanes; I don't know what changed.

I like that we kept fighting and got the deficit down to 4. We've shown all year that we're never really out of a game. Another turnover or two and get a three pointer to fall and we could have clawed our way back, but ultimately the deficit was just too much.

FerryFor50
03-14-2015, 12:18 AM
I have heard this in the past with other big men. Try to hold a tennis ball in your hand and put a proper spin on it. But I don't understand how Okafor has such incredible touch on how shots during the flow of the game. I am afraid it will cost Duke dearly down the line, but I'm not sure that can be done at this point. But despite the fts Okafor kept Duke in the game when no one else seemed ready to go.

His jumpers are not so great. His touch is mostly on flip shots and finger rolls.

NYBri
03-14-2015, 12:18 AM
It hurts, but this one is in the rear view mirror.

Starting next week we have six games to win. We just won 12 after some stinkers.

We can do this. We all love and respect these guys.

dyedwab
03-14-2015, 12:19 AM
Trying to find a reason in strategy and tactics for today's loss is a fool's errand. Yeah, Brey had a game plan to let Jah get his, and not let us have threes, but, that wouldn't have mattered if we had play with intensity, focus, and energy. For example, how many transition baskets did Notre Dame have where they were going 4 on 2 of 3 on 1? How many mindless, brain lock turnover did we commit? In the first half, did we ever get a 50/50 ball?

The silver lining is that we did manage to fight back in the 2nd half. This team is resilient. That's something

Bluegrassdevil1
03-14-2015, 12:19 AM
Everyone is missing the obvious connection surrounding Duke's defeats.

The program's last five losses:

Notre Dame
@ Notre Dame
Miami
@ N.C. State
Mercer

So long as the Devils avoid team names beginning with "M" or "N", all will be well. I think since the letters are directly paired, it will quite simple to request to the committee no match-ups with Maryland, Montana, Michigan St., Northern Iowa, etc., and then there will nothing to worry about.

However, it is important to note that most hypothetical brackets have Duke as a one seed against sixteen seed North Florida. So I guess the first 16 over 1 is finally going to happen this year.

subzero02
03-14-2015, 12:19 AM
No one got hurt, we get an extra day's rest, coach k should definitely have their attention now, we will beat unc in the final four.

FerryFor50
03-14-2015, 12:20 AM
Our guys came out of the gate looking like they expected another easy game. No energy and no hustle. Then when ND started to pull away, we panicked and forced things, which played right into their hands. Mostly though, the problem is that all of their guards could take ours off the dribble at will and get a basket and one over and over and over again. Their guards aren't even that fast or athletic, other than Grant. When we played in Cameron we were able to stay in front of our guys and also guard the passing lanes; I don't know what changed.

I like that we kept fighting and got the deficit down to 4. We've shown all year that we're never really out of a game. Another turnover or two and get a three pointer to fall and we could have clawed our way back, but ultimately the deficit was just too much.

Yep. A lucky bounce or missed miracle fadeaway by Connaughton and we may be talking about how we won a game we shouldn't have. Dem's the breaks..

gcashwell
03-14-2015, 12:20 AM
So 2 out of 33 games show you can't depend on him...games where he had 28 and 30 points? I get the disappointment over the free throw shooting and defense, but we need to keep some perspective. If anything, we should have been going to him every time down the court after Auguste fouled out.

Yes. Those were the only games that required his FT shooting. They were close in large part because of his refusal to play D. He was great on defense last night and took the night off tonight.

FerryFor50
03-14-2015, 12:21 AM
Everyone is missing the obvious connection surrounding Duke's defeats.

The program's last five losses:

Notre Dame
@ Notre Dame
Miami
N.C. State
Mercer

So long as the Devils avoid team names beginning with "M" or "N", all will be well. I think since the letters are directly paired, it will quite simple to request to the committee no match-ups with Maryland, Montana, Michigan St., Northern Iowa, etc., and then there will nothing to worry about.

However, it is important to note that most hypothetical brackets have Duke as a one seed against sixteen seed North Florida. So I guess the first 16 over 1 is finally going to happen this year.

The (Blue) Devil's in the details, I suppose. :)

CoachJ10
03-14-2015, 12:21 AM
I have heard this in the past with other big men. Try to hold a tennis ball in your hand and put a proper spin on it. But I don't understand how Okafor has such incredible touch on how shots during the flow of the game. I am afraid it will cost Duke dearly down the line, but I'm not sure that can be done at this point. But despite the fts Okafor kept Duke in the game when no one else seemed ready to go.

For 37 minutes we can run our offense thru Jah. The last 3 need to go thru Justise and Tyus.

gumbomoop
03-14-2015, 12:22 AM
Any team we play from here on out, if the game is close in last few minutes, they'd be stupid not to foul Jahlil if his defender can afford a foul or 2. He's highly unlikely to make 2 that late in a game.

FerryFor50
03-14-2015, 12:22 AM
Yes. Those were the only games that required his FT shooting. They were close in large part because of his refusal to play D. He was great on defense last night and took the night off tonight.

The entire team took the night off on D.

The Okafor criticism in this one is silly.

Billy Dat
03-14-2015, 12:22 AM
Giving credit where it is due, I thought Demetrius Jackson was brilliant. While I think Brey went slow down a little early, Jackson executed the plan pretty flawlessly, controlling the game while also scoring 15. I thought he was big time.

TampaDuke
03-14-2015, 12:23 AM
Honest question: did we play the same aggressive man defense with minimal switching against them in Cameron?

I agree with those lauding Brey's game plan. On defense, he was willing to let Okafor get his points to take the three away. On offense, they responded to our guard pressure by not even looking for threes in the first half and just driving around us.

I hate to question K, but I don't understand the stubbornness in wanting to play that defense against a team that can handle the ball (and playing back to back nights no less). A few days after coming up with a great defensive adjustment against UNC, we revert back to the same defense that cost us two prior games in similar fashion earlier this season. We were too scared of the getting beat by the three tonight, IMO.

FerryFor50
03-14-2015, 12:24 AM
It's a good thing the ACC tournament doesn't matter

Billy Dat
03-14-2015, 12:24 AM
Honest question: did we play the same aggressive man defense with minimal switching against them in Cameron?

I agree with those lauding Brey's game plan. On defense, he was willing to let Okafor get his points to take the three away. On offense, they responded to our guard pressure by not even looking for threes in the first half and just driving around us.

I hate to question K, but I don't understand the stubbornness in wanting to play that defense against a team that can handle the ball (and playing back to back nights no less). A few days after coming up with a great defensive adjustment against UNC, we revert back to the same defense that cost us two prior games in similar fashion earlier this season. We were too scared of the getting beat by the three tonight, IMO.

We played a lot of zone tonight, they carved it up like it wasn't even there. We also had to play a lot of man once they got the huge lead to try and force a higher possession game to give ourselves a fighting chance to come back. Getting into that huge hole was brutal, especially letting it swell to 17 in the second half.

uh_no
03-14-2015, 12:25 AM
It's a good thing the ACC tournament doesn't matter

whatever you say, roy :)

fgb
03-14-2015, 12:25 AM
You could see the lame carry call, or something similar, coming a mile away. It was a makeup call for the offensive foul call that Matt sold 10 seconds earlier.

That said, the refs didn't cost us this game.

the carry vs jah; the over-the-head dribble by jackson that the officials couldn't have missed, yet didn't call; the phantom foul against matt jones on the steal; the jackson push off against grayson that was somehow called a block...how did the refs not have a major role in the outcome? in spite of my rooting interest, it really didn't seem like the horrible calls were going both ways; they were in the bonus with 15 minutes to play. i admit we're a much better team than we showed tonight, and if we had come to play, the officiating would have been a moot point. but we didn't, and so it's not. good teams find a way to win on bad days. i think with better officiating, we would have.

#1Duke
03-14-2015, 12:26 AM
The entire team took the night off on D.

The Okafor criticism in this one is silly.

I don't know. Okafor gets a HUGE amount of hype….. a HUGE amount based on his offensive ability. I don't think it is wrong to point out his lack of defensive and foul shooting problems.

You have to take the kick in the butt along with the pat on the back.

There is no doubt he has plenty of time to hone his defensive and foul shooting skills. Meaning he is very young.

jv001
03-14-2015, 12:26 AM
twice he planned for us to miss more ft's than they would win by? what a badass coach.

You don't think Brey is a good coach? If not, I think you're in the minority. GoDuke!

FerryFor50
03-14-2015, 12:27 AM
We played a lot of zone tonight, they carved it up like it wasn't even there. We also had to play a lot of man once they got the huge lead to try and force a higher possession game to give ourselves a fighting chance to come back. Getting into that huge hole was brutal, especially letting it swell to 17 in the second half.

Yea but did we try the "leaving everyone back on offense" defense?

Oh, we did?

I got nothin.

CoachJ10
03-14-2015, 12:28 AM
Honest question: did we play the same aggressive man defense with minimal switching against them in Cameron?

I agree with those lauding Brey's game plan. On defense, he was willing to let Okafor get his points to take the three away. On offense, they responded to our guard pressure by not even looking for threes in the first half and just driving around us.

I hate to question K, but I don't understand the stubbornness in wanting to play that defense against a team that can handle the ball (and playing back to back nights no less). A few days after coming up with a great defensive adjustment against UNC, we revert back to the same defense that cost us two prior games in similar fashion earlier this season. We were too scared of the getting beat by the three tonight, IMO.

ND showed why they are not a team you want to zone. They carved us apart in the first half.

Utley
03-14-2015, 12:28 AM
Its my impression that its more that Okafor is just bad on defense as opposed to not trying. His instincts seem terrible - often looking in the wrong direction which leaves him reacting to late to the ball coming at him. I'm not arguing that he's bad - just the reason.

That being said, there are definitely some nights where we trying harder on defense than others. I thought we had reached a point where we would bring our effort ever time - especially with the ACC title there for the taking but we didn't do it.

g-money
03-14-2015, 12:28 AM
Why does everyone assume he doesn't work on FTs?

Maybe he's just not very good at them and will never be because of his ginormous hands.

My wife and I were talking about this during our self-conducted post-mortem after the game. Okafor hits a turnaround jump shot from 10' at a higher percentage than he hits FTs; therefore, perhaps he should try shooting a turnaround free throw.

fgb
03-14-2015, 12:29 AM
You don't think Brey is a good coach? If not, I think you're in the minority. GoDuke!

i think he's a very good coach. i just think the reason we lost two games against them was our free throw %, and i don't credit his game plan for that.

FerryFor50
03-14-2015, 12:30 AM
I don't know. Okafor gets a HUGE amount of hype….. a HUGE amount based on his offensive ability. I don't think it is wrong to point out his lack of defensive and foul shooting problems.

You have to take the kick in the butt along with the pat on the back.

There is no doubt he has plenty of time to hone his defensive and foul shooting skills. Meaning he is very young.

Yea but my point is... Who on Duke "brought it" tonight, outside of Winslow's 2nd half?

Okafor was the only one who was consistent the entire game. Is it his fault those guards kept carving up the perimeter D?

This is a team loss. Okafor was MOTM.

rsvman
03-14-2015, 12:30 AM
Maybe he could finger-roll the free throws?


Just a thought.

jv001
03-14-2015, 12:32 AM
We played a lot of zone tonight, they carved it up like it wasn't even there. We also had to play a lot of man once they got the huge lead to try and force a higher possession game to give ourselves a fighting chance to come back. Getting into that huge hole was brutal, especially letting it swell to 17 in the second half.

Duke let ND get confidence by playing so sluggish to begin the game. Our man to man was terrible and our zone was not much better. We did show some heart by cutting into their big lead late in the 2nd half. Now I'm back to worrying about our lack of defense heading into the NCAAT. GoDuke!

gofurman
03-14-2015, 12:32 AM
I think nd / vt type squad just makes us uncomfortable. The spread floor and dribble drive offense is clearly a weakness. Fortunately (a) very few teams have the personnel nd does and (b) we can and have beat it.

We looked like we were playing in quicksand the first half; we will learn from it. Grayson struggled but i was glad to see justice bounce back so strongly.

Thoughts- Please let me know your thoughts on my thoughts! Agree, disagree??

1). Shades of Lehigh. VCU. Spread and kick. Notre dame. VTech even - it's about MATCHUPS. We can't stay in front of 4 guards. VTech is best example. Horrible team as regards to total talent. Horrible matchup for Duke. Leads to OT game. We don't want a 4 guard or even 3 super fast guard team (Miami)

2). I thought the zone was our cure for that - inability to stay in front of too many quick guys. So Why did the first half zoning not stop the penetration????? (Credit to K for trying three or four defenses)

3). Lesson to the team -----Yes, end game situations count but so do the freakin first 8 minutes. Look how we put nc state in a hole and it was over. Same for us v NDame at Cameron. Same for nDame vs Miami. Win the first 8 minutes by double digits and the game pressure goes down and all of a sudden everything snowballs.

4). Per the number 3 - I give our guys credit for fighting back. Many teams (state last night) roll over when it starts like that. We did not. Our fault was not getting it goin until 20 minutes in. Get it going even 10 minutes in maybe we win

5). What change did we make that stopped their dribble penetration in the second half??? I saw man2man and the same defenses but ND was much less effective in the second half

6). Brey said in post game that they indeed did hack Okafor a little w two or three minutes left. I would. If there is no call you frustrate him. If there is a call he gets 1 of 2 at best. Dang man. Hit some ft

7). Good time to miss all our 3s. Now let's hit em in the NCAA

8) Big-credit to ND. Good game plan. Okafor will get more than his normal but threes will be very contested and the net effect of Okafor scoring an extra ten pts but the guards losing 25 pts is -15. Hope it's not a blueprint. Good thing is we will practice this next week having this blueprint so if we see it at least it's not the absolute first time

9). Guess we won every revenge game. (State, Notre dame in Cameron). But not double revenge. Lol

* please do let me know your thoughts on my thoughts. Appreciate it ,

gcashwell
03-14-2015, 12:32 AM
Trying to find a reason in strategy and tactics for today's loss is a fool's errand. Yeah, Brey had a game plan to let Jah get his, and not let us have threes, but, that wouldn't have mattered if we had play with intensity, focus, and energy. For example, how many transition baskets did Notre Dame have where they were going 4 on 2 of 3 on 1? How many mindless, brain lock turnover did we commit? In the first half, did we ever get a 50/50 ball?

The silver lining is that we did manage to fight back in the 2nd half. This team is resilient. That's something

You are exactly right. How many times do we see Quinn hit the side of the backboard. Hopefully tonight is the only time.

Billy Dat
03-14-2015, 12:33 AM
I don't know. Okafor gets a HUGE amount of hype….. a HUGE amount based on his offensive ability. I don't think it is wrong to point out his lack of defensive and foul shooting problems.

You have to take the kick in the butt along with the pat on the back.

There is no doubt he has plenty of time to hone his defensive and foul shooting skills. Meaning he is very young.

I made comments defending Jah based on the fact that the balance of post-game comments as to why we lost tonight were starting to focus on Jahlil, which I think is crazy considering he carried us on offense, had 7 offensive boards and so many other guys played bad, like our usually great backcourt that went a combined 6-25 from the field, 2-13 from 3, 7 assists and 6 turnovers (but they went 3-3 from the line and the opposing backcourt only scored 28 on 9/20 shooting. It just seems crazy, for this game, to focus on Jahlil's contribution.

freshmanjs
03-14-2015, 12:34 AM
i think he's a very good coach. i just think the reason we lost two games against them was our free throw %, and i don't credit his game plan for that.

how many free throws would you expect us to hit? we were 7-14. a good percentage would have been to make 10 or 11. 3-4 points does not explain the loss

FerryFor50
03-14-2015, 12:35 AM
how many free throws would you expect us to hit? we were 7-14. a good percentage would have been to make 10 or 11. 3-4 points does not explain the loss

To be fair, 2 FTs down 4 late would have been big.

But agree with the overall point - fuzzy math.

#1Duke
03-14-2015, 12:39 AM
Yea but my point is... Who on Duke "brought it" tonight, outside of Winslow's 2nd half?

Okafor was the only one who was consistent the entire game. Is it his fault those guards kept carving up the perimeter D?

This is a team loss. Okafor was MOTM.

Consistent at what? Yes, he scored. He scored what he scored partially because he was permitted to score like he did. He was….. that was NDs game plan.

Consistent at defense? I don't think so. Consistent from the foul line? Nope.

"WE" as fans often overlook areas that need work when a player puts up good scoring numbers. We tend to forget about the rest of his game. I know that's a common mindset.

I honestly think that is why "most" big men can't shoot foul shots, aren't good at defense, etc. because from a young age they are permitted to mail in that part of the game because " they really score".

Duke 81 LA
03-14-2015, 12:39 AM
As poor as the D was in the first half, we lost the game on offense.
26 points in the first half against a Notre Dame team that doesn't play very good D.
0 points after we closed to 68-64 with 3:10 to go. Very unlike Duke to go scoreless in the last three minutes of a close game.

Billy Dat
03-14-2015, 12:40 AM
2). I thought the zone was our cure for that - inability to stay in front of too many quick guys. So Why did the first half zoning not stop the penetration????? (Credit to K for trying three or four defenses)

3). Lesson to the team -----Yes, end game situations count but so do the freakin first 8 minutes. Look how we put nc state in a hole and it was over. Same for us v NDame at Cameron. Same for nDame vs Miami. Win the first 8 minutes by double digits and the game pressure goes down and all of a sudden everything snowballs.

4). Per the number 3 - I give our guys credit for fighting back. Many teams (state last night) roll over when it starts like that. We did not. Our fault was not getting it goin until 20 minutes in. Get it going even 10 minutes in maybe we win

5). What change did we make that stopped their dribble penetration in the second half??? I saw man2man and the same defenses but ND was much less effective in the second half


RE #2
When we went zone, they were hitting Colson in the paint and he was hitting jumpers and taking it strong to the hole. He got an uncharacteristic 17 and was part of the reason the first half was so brutal.

RE #3
We haven't let ourselves get in too many big holes like this. This was a kind of outlier.

RE #4
I agree, these kids don't quit

RE #5
It was mostly them, they started trying to use the full clock on most possessions for the whole second half trying to shorten the game. It worked just well enough.

fgb
03-14-2015, 12:40 AM
To be fair, 2 FTs down 4 late would have been big.

But agree with the overall point - fuzzy math.

we were down 4 when we missed our 6th and 7th. what's fuzzy about the math?

gofurman
03-14-2015, 12:40 AM
3-17 from he arc, 7-14 from the ft line. just failure of our own making.

On defense the failure was one of our own effort or ability..in addition to Notre dame quickness. As for the 3s (3-17) I give big credit to nd. That was Brey's plan, don't double Okafor and stay in the face of our shooters

**actually that's another question I have. When we closely guarded ND on the perimeter they blew past us to get layups - esp in the first half (ridiculously easily). So when ND face guards our guards on the perimeter closely why could we not accomplish the same?? IE, when guarded that closely why can Duke guards not blow past ND defenders?

freshmanjs
03-14-2015, 12:41 AM
what's fuzzy about the math?


twice he planned for us to miss more ft's than they would win by? what a badass coach.

pretty fuzzy...

Troublemaker
03-14-2015, 12:42 AM
Honest question: did we play the same aggressive man defense with minimal switching against them in Cameron?

I agree with those lauding Brey's game plan. On defense, he was willing to let Okafor get his points to take the three away. On offense, they responded to our guard pressure by not even looking for threes in the first half and just driving around us.

I hate to question K, but I don't understand the stubbornness in wanting to play that defense against a team that can handle the ball (and playing back to back nights no less). A few days after coming up with a great defensive adjustment against UNC, we revert back to the same defense that cost us two prior games in similar fashion earlier this season. We were too scared of the getting beat by the three tonight, IMO.

The gameplan was very similar to the Cameron one, actually.

And Duke's defense actually moved up in KenPom after this game. Because, despite only playing hard for 16 minutes, Duke held a great offense down pretty well.

This loss was on the offense. We had a sub-100 offensive efficiency against a bad defense. Too many lazy turnovers from lack of focus at the beginning of the game. And, of course, we also missed open shots, a layup or two, and the free throws.

CoachJ10
03-14-2015, 12:43 AM
On defense the failure was one of our own effort or ability..in addition to Notre dame quickness. As for the 3s (3-17) I give big credit to nd. That was Brey's plan, don't double Okafor and stay in the face of our shooters

**actually that's another question I have. When we closely guarded ND on the perimeter they blew past us to get layups - esp in the first half (ridiculously easily). So when ND face guards our guards on the perimeter closely why could we not accomplish the same?? IE, when guarded that closely why can Duke guards not blow past ND defenders?

Tyus and Grayson did try to drive in those situations. They either didn't get the same touch calls that ND did or missed relatively easy shots.

jv001
03-14-2015, 12:45 AM
we were down 4 when we missed our 6th and 7th. what's fuzzy about the math?

Jahlil is a terrible FT shooter. The stats don't lie. When their big man fouled out, Brey had his sub foul Jahlil. It worked and it is what it is. If Jahlil doesn't score and rebound like he did, then his missed Fts don't mean a thing. No one other than Okafor played even close to an average game tonight. Without the big guy, we lose by 30+ points. GoDuke!

Billy Dat
03-14-2015, 12:47 AM
We are 1-3 vs ND since they joined the ACC #newworldorder

gofurman
03-14-2015, 12:48 AM
how many free throws would you expect us to hit? we were 7-14. a good percentage would have been to make 10 or 11. 3-4 points does not explain the loss

3 or 4 pts can indeed explain the loss. It's not a game that take place in a vacuum. (Example - we miss a 3 they get the rebound and runout layup it's a 5 pt swing, not just a 3 pt miss. Everything is compounded). Put 4 more pts on the board with 5 minutes left and there is more game pressure on ND. Maybe we are tied. Duke doesn't have to heave desperation 3s? I firmly believe no game or play exists in a vacuum. Each play leads to the next and can snowball,,,

Thus how we can lose to a team that we crushed a few weeks ago. Because a few good Notre Dame plays snowballed early and duke's D stunk thus giving ND extra confidence to drive the lane and Colson started 'feeling it'. Each play is connected

freshmanjs
03-14-2015, 12:49 AM
3 or 4 pts can indeed explain the loss. It's not a game that take place in a vacuum. (Example - we miss a 3 they get the rebound and runout layup it's a 5 pt swing, not just a 3 pt miss. Everything is compounded). Put 4 more pts on the board with 5 minutes left and there is more game pressure on ND. Maybe we are tied. Duke doesn't have to heave desperation 3s? I firmly believe no game or play exists in a vacuum. Each play leads to the next and can snowball,,,

Thus how we can lose to a team that we crushed a few weeks ago. Because a few good Notre Dame plays snowballed early and duke's D stunk thus giving ND extra confidence to drive the lane and Colson started 'feeling it'. Each play is connected

your underlined point is obvious, but that's not related to what he said. he said we lost because we missed more free throws than the margin of victory. which is

a) not true and
b) implies an assumption that we should shoot 100%

elvis14
03-14-2015, 12:50 AM
On defense the failure was one of our own effort or ability..in addition to Notre dame quickness. As for the 3s (3-17) I give big credit to nd. That was Brey's plan, don't double Okafor and stay in the face of our shooters

**actually that's another question I have. When we closely guarded ND on the perimeter they blew past us to get layups - esp in the first half (ridiculously easily). So when ND face guards our guards on the perimeter closely why could we not accomplish the same?? IE, when guarded that closely why can Duke guards not blow past ND defenders?

Yes ND gets some credit for playing defense on some of our missed 3's but we had plenty of open looks that didn't go down.

As for our guards not driving past the ND players....I don't get it either. Outside of Jahlil's work in the post and Justise's points on the break late in the game we just didn't seem to have anything that worked on offense.

Basically, it was just a frustrating game and I'm really sad that we don't get to play for the ACC championship tomorrow.

TampaDuke
03-14-2015, 12:50 AM
ND showed why they are not a team you want to zone. They carved us apart in the first half.

I guess I need to watch the recording. It seemed like we didn't try the zone until we were already down big. I could be mistaken though.

jipops
03-14-2015, 12:52 AM
Trying to find a reason in strategy and tactics for today's loss is a fool's errand. Yeah, Brey had a game plan to let Jah get his, and not let us have threes, but, that wouldn't have mattered if we had play with intensity, focus, and energy. For example, how many transition baskets did Notre Dame have where they were going 4 on 2 of 3 on 1? How many mindless, brain lock turnover did we commit? In the first half, did we ever get a 50/50 ball?



I totally agree with this. Coaching strategy is so over-valued in these games. Just like State was asleep Thursday our guys had no focus out the gate tonight. Brey had a nice game plan but once again giving up transition buckets, putting up quick shots, poor decisions with the ball in the lane...this all looked like a young, immature team. Everyone seems to forget that this team relies very heavily on an inexperienced core. It's not about coaching, it's about players making plays and gaining focus when knocked back. Unfortunately tonight was a team that was too immature to focus on defense once again, especially when outside shots aren't falling. So the game was lost in the first half.

fgb
03-14-2015, 12:54 AM
your underlined point is obvious, but that's not related to what he said. he said we lost because we missed more free throws than the margin of victory. which is

a) not true and
b) implies an assumption that we should shoot 100%

you're right, i was was wrong the final margin.

FerryFor50
03-14-2015, 12:55 AM
I guess I need to watch the recording.

Why would you do that to yourself?

azzefkram
03-14-2015, 12:59 AM
A disappointing loss but I am happy to see that they didn't give up and made a game of it in the end. I would have liked to see a ACC tournament title for our senior captain, Quinn. On to the NCAA's.

fgb
03-14-2015, 01:01 AM
in regards to game plan, i'd like to point out that we forced nd to go to bonzie colson as their primary scorer in the first half. if you had told me before the game that that was our game plan, i'd have been pretty happy with it.

on the same note, if the teams that we face moving forward decide to force us to go inside and make jah our primary scorer, as the irish did tonight, i'll be pretty happy with that, as well.

gwlaw99
03-14-2015, 01:04 AM
Glad we got the over confidence out of our system now and not in the NCAA.

subzero02
03-14-2015, 01:07 AM
Its my impression that its more that Okafor is just bad on defense as opposed to not trying. His instincts seem terrible - often looking in the wrong direction which leaves him reacting to late to the ball coming at him. I'm not arguing that he's bad - just the reason.

That being said, there are definitely some nights where we trying harder on defense than others. I thought we had reached a point where we would bring our effort ever time - especially with the ACC title there for the taking but we didn't do it.

His defensive instincts are terrible. The foul on the 3 pointer and the foul on Grant's made layup in the first come to mind but there were many other examples. He is very slow to react to dribble penetration

brickey
03-14-2015, 01:08 AM
I'd love to see this team make the final 4 - and as long as our draw is not unlucky I think we have a solid chance.

I think we'll make the Final if our draw is un-luckie.

Acymetric
03-14-2015, 01:13 AM
I think we'll make the Final if our draw is un-luckie.

Ba-dum

Owen Meany
03-14-2015, 01:15 AM
Duke obviously came out flat, as shown by Coach K's timeout at 4-2 to voice his displeasure. I hoped that would get the team going, but it didn't. Alot has been said, rightfully, about Quin being the MVP and leader of this group. After being sick for a couple of days, its understandable if he was drained tonight. Perhaps the younger guys lost their intensity without Cook to push them. They dug a hole and were unable to get out of it. They actually outscored Notre Dame if you remove the first 8 minuted or so. Thankfully, Okafor was able to keep Duke in the game offensively when no one else could score. He was clearly tired, and he has come up slightly gimpy on a play in each of the last 2 games, so I believe he isn't fully recovered from his ankle sprain yet. I thought he stepped up really well, considering he seems like a pretty laid back kid who is only one year out of high school.

As far as Okafor's defense, he isn't a great defender. But he's young. And Duke's defense often puts him in difficult positions. The key to beating Duke has always been penetrating, because if you do Duke will let you score (unlike other teams who will foul to stop a layup). Gary Williams understood this well, and the Miami coach and player said so directly after winning in Cameron. That's why even an all-time great defender like Sheldon Williams would give up monster games to Sean May (there were others also). Coach K did not want Williams to get fouls so he backed off at times, even though he was a very aggressive, successful shot blocker. Mason Plumlee was an All American senior and he gave up many layups every game. So I believe this is by design. Duke's defense is supposed to disrupt the opposing guards, but when broken it does give up inside points. How many times has it been stated on this forum that Duke was unlucky because some player had a career game against Duke? I think its too often to be bad luck. So while Okafor is not a good defender, and he gives up points to his own man also, it looks worse when the guards are beating their men due to overplay. If he tried to stop these drivers I suspect he would end up on the bench in foul trouble.

Regarding free throws - the kid is remarkably polished. I would be surprised if he hasn't tried hard to improve his free throw shooting. I believe Rick Barry suggested big guys shoot ft's granny style so they could get correct spin despite their hands. But no one wanted to follow him because it looked ridiculous. It is what it is. And confidence plays a huge part also. Perhaps he can go on one of the mini-streaks like Mason went on.

CoSprings
03-14-2015, 01:18 AM
We played with no passion, no energy and very little heart for 25 minutes. So, yes we deserved to get beat. AND, that was a horribly officiated game. Jamie Luckie swallowed his whistle on our end on numerous 'and 1' plays, missed the carry by ND, called the carry on Okafor, called the hold on Quinn...It was very apparent he had an axe to grind. Or, he really is one of the worst officials in college basketball.

That was a really bad loss. Just really disappointed that here we are again in March and Duke continues to have entire games where they aren't all in. Lehigh, Mercer and now this game. Yes ND can play, but they didn't win the game, we LOST the game. We lost the game in the first 5 minutes because we didn't come to play. It's a pattern.

I assume K has their full attention, but all the confidence I had in this group took a huge hit not because we lost, but because of how we approached the game. We thought we could just show up.

DukeinDC
03-14-2015, 01:22 AM
Is it possible that In the game where he has a season high in scoring actually lends more credence to the Okafor Ewing theory that has been out there?

dukefan5656
03-14-2015, 01:23 AM
I enjoy the ufc and Dana White has preached one of the most relevant pieces of sports wisdom I have ever heard. "Don't leave the outcome in the hands of the refs." Look, we belly ache over calls and ticky tack moments, but at the end of the day we didn't play well. We get bad calls every game, no more tonight than normal. I see this as a good loss. We got our butts kicked and it will be fresh in everyone's mind come tourney time. We are a helluva team; talented as daggum heck... Now our heads will be right. Here's to knock outs, no decisions.

mr. synellinden
03-14-2015, 01:39 AM
Inexplicable turning point moments:
1) they throw a bad pass to Grant way out on the perimeter, he bobbles the ball, Matt is grabbing it out of the air, and they call the foul on Matt. I replayed it in slow motion; the two players made no contact at all. That gives Grant two free throws rather than us a chance at a fast-break lay-up. Four point swing.
2) We're down four and Okafor gets the ball just off the blocks. He's backing the defender down for what seems like an almost inevitable bucket, when he's called for a carry? With about 2:20 left in the game they pull out that old chestnut? And about 20 seconds later one of the ND guards dribbles the ball OVER his HEAD and there's no call?

But we lost the game in the first half.

We played poor enough to lose, but I completely agree, these were huge swings in the game. Overall, I thought the riffing was atrocious both ways. Several just ridiculous calls. And they shot their FTs great and we didn't.

gumbomoop
03-14-2015, 01:43 AM
I totally agree with this. Coaching strategy is so over-valued in these games. Just like State was asleep Thursday our guys had no focus out the gate tonight.... It's not about coaching, it's about players making plays and gaining focus when knocked back. Unfortunately tonight was a team that was too immature to focus on defense once again, especially when outside shots aren't falling. So the game was lost in the first half.

I agree with jipops and dyedwab re our disappointing lack of focus and energy. But I don't think Krzyzewski gets a total pass for our first half doldrums.

What about the following strategy, in the long-shot possibility that we play ND in NCAAT. Or, for that matter, any team against which we might be advised to play some zone.

What about some 3-2 zone with Amile up top? Amile up top, Tyus and Quinn on wings, Justise (Matt/Grayson) and Jahlil (Marshall) inside. Amile is long, and if active might both intimidate shooters as well as make it difficult for opposing guard to feed a teammate at FT-line.

Amile has ceased contributing much on O, but he can still be a disrupter on D. Duke cannot afford to play passive D, as tonight showed. Amile can actually be a weapon on D, pressing and/or up top in zone. At the very least, against some teams K has got to inject some intermittent disruption-D into the gameplan.

A related point re FT-shooting. Because Amile just doesn't figure much into our O-schemes, his FT-shooting isn't as big a problem as it might have become (and, unfortunately, still might be in some future game). Partly this is because even in the rare instances that he touches the ball down low on O, he generally does not look to score. Very disappointing, but one unanticipated positive (?) about his regression on O is that his weakness there doesn't consistently hurt us. Since he rarely even tries to score, he's rarely fouled. Our predictable FT-problem now is almost solely, if ominously, down to Jahlil, as Amile doesn't shoot many and Justise has improved enough to make some.

Dukehky
03-14-2015, 01:47 AM
K said they were ready to go to war in the NCAA tournament.

Good enough for me, let's go stomp a mud hole in Charlotte.

subzero02
03-14-2015, 01:50 AM
K said they were ready to go to war in the NCAA tournament.

Good enough for me, let's go stomp a mud hole in Charlotte.

Only a solid first weekend in the NCAA tourney will help get rid of this terrible after taste.

InSpades
03-14-2015, 01:59 AM
You can't let a team get 15 points ahead of you and expect to make a comeback... I applaud Coach for calling a timeout in under 2 minutes but nothing changed. Our defense in the 1st half was a joke. We could have put 5 guys in the lane and they would have scored less points. I don't get the zone defense but not collapse on them when they get it at the free throw line. If the pass gets in there you have to collapse... They had a 10 point lead and hadn't made a shot outside of 5 feet! We knew they would kill us off the dribble and the screens and we didn't seem ready for it at all.

I don't know how people criticize Jah. Yes, his defense is bad but he was the entire offense. Yes, his FT shooting is bad and it's a mystery as to why but I'm sure he's worked on it. He just isn't good at it. It will bite us at some point but he's our best offensive player by a large margin. We have to utilize him. If anything we didn't utilize him enough. He was 13 of 18 w/ a bunch of offensive boards.

I think K sat Jah and Justice too much in the 1st half. Grayson wasn't ready... Matt wasn't doing very much either. We needed those guys in the game to prevent the lead from growing too large.

Bottom line though... our defense isn't good enough to let our guards play so poorly at the offensive end and still beat a good team.

The game was just very frustrating... hopefully they can turn things around again for the NCAAs. Can't hang our heads. ND is a good team and obviously not a great matchup for us. Next game. Hope we get a #1 seed.

mo.st.dukie
03-14-2015, 02:15 AM
Is it possible that In the game where he has a season high in scoring actually lends more credence to the Okafor Ewing theory that has been out there?

Nope, because Quinn Cook had 7 points on 2-12 shooting and all the other Duke players weren't that great offensively either. It had nothing to do with Duke giving the ball to Okafor too much but did have everything to do with the total team effort just not being there tonight. Nobody can do it alone.

Lulu
03-14-2015, 02:20 AM
I've already expressed my dismay in our players...

but if we're allowed to criticize and single out officials then I say put Jamie Luckie's job on the chopping block. He ruined this game on both ends of the court with inconsistency, bad calls, and phantom calls. I'll be giving special note anytime I see him on the court, whatever teams are playing, from this point forward.

I might not be Jay Bilas but I like to think I'm pretty unbiased when it comes to calls, usually recognizing (with a laugh or relief) as many that go our way as that of the other team. The officiating tonight was really awful, and it was still true even once I had given up all hope.

CajunDevil
03-14-2015, 05:33 AM
Frustrating loss but one we can certainly learn from. Good comeback that put us in striking distance despite off nights by our guards. Next play.

neemizzle
03-14-2015, 05:34 AM
I guess this is the question then:

Would getting past the first weekend get the taste out of our mouths? It was said a couple of posts earlier and it struck me as interesting. I'm sure for these guys, getting past that FIRST game against a 16/15(if they mistakenly place us as a 2) would get the taste out of our players mouths.

This team to me NEEDS Quinn to succeed. I say that because tonight he really struggled. The whole team struggled, with the exception of Okafor (even though my 7-9 year old team I coach can shoot better than him at the free throw line), but I noticed Quinn really struggled. And we talk all over the place about the "Okafor Theory" of how we play better when he's off the floor. Quinn is the most important piece of our puzzle. Without him, we won't win anything. Forget the Okafor Theory. If we play better with the ACC Player of the Year off of the court, then this is an alternative universe.

With that in mind, it's a reverse thing with Cook. We need him on the court. I've watched them play so much over my life, seeing countless players come through there. But man if Quinn has the guts and heart to fight through just about anything.

What I will say though, is when Quinn is struggling, the team struggles. That's a pattern that we can't follow. I mean Quinn has seen his fair share of struggles, no? Losing to Lehigh in 2012, Louisville in 2013 in a game we had until Ware broke his leg and the Cards couldn't miss, and then last year with Mercer. I feel for the guy. I read that he's one of the only guys for Duke to never win an ACC title. That's big man, I don't care what anyone says.

I for one want Quinn to succeed. And tonight, we didn't.

Not blaming Quinn, it's obviously not his fault, everyone had their fair share of mistakes tonight. But for us to succeed, he needs to succeed.

Got a pretty good chance next week, at least I believe so!

I trust Quinn when the ball is in his hands.

CharlestonDave
03-14-2015, 05:45 AM
Overconfident in the first half, then shell shocked after the first 5 minutes.

15 point deficit at half should have been more.

Credit Duke for fighting back, but they couldn't get out of their own way tonight. Bad D. Bad O, other than Okafor. Winslow came around in the 2nd but it was too little, too late.

They fought and had a chance but kept making bad decisions on O and then the Irish hit another miracle clutch shot to ice it.

I think Duke fought back enough to stay in the 1 seed conversation. Glad the loss happened now and not in the NCAA first weekend though.

Watch ND barf in the gutter tomorrow against the Heels.

Who Cares what ND does tonight ? They beat us, we did not deserve to win, hopefully no one got hurt, let's move on .Va also lost.

CharlestonDave
03-14-2015, 05:50 AM
We played with no passion, no energy and very little heart for 25 minutes. So, yes we deserved to get beat. AND, that was a horribly officiated game. Jamie Luckie swallowed his whistle on our end on numerous 'and 1' plays, missed the carry by ND, called the carry on Okafor, called the hold on Quinn...It was very apparent he had an axe to grind. Or, he really is one of the worst officials in college basketball.

That was a really bad loss. Just really disappointed that here we are again in March and Duke continues to have entire games where they aren't all in. Lehigh, Mercer and now this game. Yes ND can play, but they didn't win the game, we LOST the game. We lost the game in the first 5 minutes because we didn't come to play. It's a pattern.

I assume K has their full attention, but all the confidence I had in this group took a huge hit not because we lost, but because of how we approached the game. We thought we could just show up.

Sorry, I was also disappointed in the loss but to say that ND did not win the game and that we lost the game is just sour grapes. ND WON the game because they were just better , period .

Duke3517
03-14-2015, 07:05 AM
For as good as they are offensively it is almost the opposite on the defensive side. Teams with great quick penetrating guards will always give Duke problems.

Okafor on the defensive side looked lost at times too. Though it won't happen because he is to valuable offensively but sometimes I wonder if playing Plumlee more would help deter some of Duke's defensive woes.

arnie
03-14-2015, 07:25 AM
Officiating was awful all the way around, not just against us. Okafor got away with some charges and ND had several very questionable calls against them down stretch.

The refs had nothing to do with this loss.

Bilas agrees that officiating was bad: except his take is Duke gets all the calls. Must be in the ESPN announcer handbook.

Saratoga2
03-14-2015, 07:31 AM
Before I go back and read the thread, I will include my own thoughts from last night.

We had played each other twice before, so there shouldn't have been unfamiliarity. I also don't thinnk the argument that we have a lot of freshmen holds water at this time of year, particularly since one of their players who did the most damage in the first half was a freshman.

Mike Brey's game plan seemed as follows:

Offense:
Use his quiick guards to penetrate our mtm defense and challange Okafor by going straight at him and possibly get him in foul trouble. Stick with going to the basket and only use the three ball where players were wide open. If we zoned, put a player in the middle of the zone to catch, drive or distribute. It worked and our guards and also Justise and Matt in particular seemed to be unable to stop the penetration.

Defensse:
Let one man cover Okafor but face guard Quinn and play man to man on the remainer. No uncontested threes and limit penetration.


Clearly their offensive scheme worked against us in spades. Their penetration was almost at will and they put Okafor in the position of collecting two fouls early in the game. MP3 seemed slow and left his man to double the penetrator with the result of an easy backdoor play. While Okafor wwas not a demon on defense, what was he to do? Yhose on the board thinking he could stop direct drives into his chest are not being fair to him.

Their defensive scheme also worked against us. Okafor was able to get his poiints, although I think he started his moves too far from the basket he still was effective. The problem was there was little else going on. Justise was among the missing for the first half. He tried to bull his way to the basket or some one on one dribbling with lazy passes.. Quinn had little room to operate and Tyus also was guarded closely. Any drives inside required us to make circus shots and we had great trouble hitting from outside. I only remember 3 three points shots going in all night (Quinn, Tyus and Matt), otherwise they were clunkers.

When we finally woke up into the first 5 minutess of the second half, we were in a huge hole and to our credit, pulled back to within 4 by playing better defense and having Justise play much better on offense. Yhe problem we had is that we had used up so many fouls that we could not get enough stops without putting them on the line and also they started to hit some threes. A series oof bad plays toward the end (Tyus not catchiing a pass to him, Okafor missing free throws and fouling a three point shooter and Justise dribbling the ball in front of him and getting it stolen) killed any chance of making it all the way back.

ND outplayed us and we just seemed unready to handle what Brey had prepared for us. Doesn't bode well going forward as other teams will have the combination of quick guards to throw against us. Villanova for instance is just one of several. Okafor did what he could but in tournament play you have to be in there contesting on every play and Duke was not for the first half and some of the second.

wavedukefan70s
03-14-2015, 07:32 AM
With Quinn being sick through out the week.i wonder how many other guys got it aswell.no excuse you play win or lose with what you have.we looked out of sinc at times just a tad off on o.as bad as we looked we still could have won this game.against a top ten oponet.as well as one of our best former assistants i believe.
We rest up ,sinc up ,man up,see what the ncaa deals us.then kick some butt in the tourney.

MartyClark
03-14-2015, 08:06 AM
Who Cares what ND does tonight ? They beat us, we did not deserve to win, hopefully no one got hurt, let's move on .Va also lost.

I do care what Notre Dame does tonight. I really want them to beat UNC.

jv001
03-14-2015, 08:18 AM
With Quinn being sick through out the week.i wonder how many other guys got it aswell.no excuse you play win or lose with what you have.we looked out of sinc at times just a tad off on o.as bad as we looked we still could have won this game.against a top ten oponet.as well as one of our best former assistants i believe.
We rest up ,sinc up ,man up,see what the ncaa deals us.then kick some butt in the tourney.

I don't know if the players were sick(probably not) but I sure was after the game. Feel a little better this am but still pretty upset that these talented players would come out that flat. I hope the Captains get their attention because it's one and done from here on out. If Quinn doesn't want to be one of the few players under Coach K that didn't win a championship, he better get back on track as player and captain. GoDuke!

Billy Dat
03-14-2015, 08:28 AM
It's always interesting to read/listen-to K's post game presser:
http://raycomsports.com/sports_labs_docs/m-baskbl/2015_mbb_quotes12.pdf

-The last 16 minutes, we were fine, the first 24 we were not mentally there "it was like a different team"
-We had chances to win but missed wide open shots we usually make, probably putting too much pressure on making each one (cited Quinn)
-Shuts down any line of questioning related to last year's early NCAA exit, each team is different, he loved last year's team and loves this year's team

TampaDuke
03-14-2015, 08:32 AM
the carry vs jah; the over-the-head dribble by jackson that the officials couldn't have missed, yet didn't call; the phantom foul against matt jones on the steal; the jackson push off against grayson that was somehow called a block...how did the refs not have a major role in the outcome? in spite of my rooting interest, it really didn't seem like the horrible calls were going both ways; they were in the bonus with 15 minutes to play. i admit we're a much better team than we showed tonight, and if we had come to play, the officiating would have been a moot point. but we didn't, and so it's not. good teams find a way to win on bad days. i think with better officiating, we would have.

I'm not saying the refs weren't making bad calls, but that happens in varying degrees every game. ND would no doubt point out some questionable ones that went against them, with the two offensive ones Matt drew that almost allowed us to get back in the game as an example.

TampaDuke
03-14-2015, 08:39 AM
What concerns me more than anything about last night's game was seeing that "deer in the headlights" look (followed inevitably by a player or two trying to win the game by himself) from the team in a tourney environment. Too reminiscent of the last few NCAA early exits. Hopefully, getting back in the game at the end will help with confidence going forward.

TKG
03-14-2015, 08:39 AM
Bilas made an interesting comment last night during the first while ND was just slicing and dicing our D. He said, Duke looks very young. This concerns me about a Lehigh/Mercer repeat for this team. During the Tournament our opponents will come to play and in the early rounds we will be playing teams that are not filled with McDonalds AAs or potential OADs. They will be teams of lesser talent but older players who have played together longer.

Our boys need to bring it every game. There are no nights off as I hope they learned from ND. Our talent is undeniable. It's between the ears where they need to be more consistent.

WakeDevil
03-14-2015, 08:49 AM
If you don't care how ND does tonight, then you need to engage in deep introspection.

I would not pull for UNC-Cheat against anyone in the ACC, not even the aliens from upstate New York.

The last time I was this mad at a loss was the last regular season game of 1974, when I through a chair against a wall and it stuck in the drywall.

ncexnyc
03-14-2015, 08:51 AM
The Dramatics used to sing, "Whatcha see, is whatcha get." Unfortunately some people on here don't understand that.

Jah is never going to race down the defensive end like a maniac ala MP3, but he is going to show us some awesome offensive moves that many current pros don't have. Will he get better as a defensive player? Of course he will, but it's not happening today or within the next few weeks. The same can be said for his free throw shooting. Let's remember it took MP2 several years before he got his act together from the charity stripe.

I read way up thread that Grayson showed he just wasn't ready for primetime. Really? The kid caught some bad breaks with some foul calls and things quickly snowballed from there for him. It happens to every player during their career. I promise you this kid will bounce back in a big way our next game.

Justise and crew sleeping walking through the entire first half was very disappointing, but they showed heart at the end.

Will they learn from last night? I believe if you've been paying attention to this team, the answer is a resounding yes!.

Run and Gun
03-14-2015, 09:28 AM
Credit Brey with this win as much as you would the players. He devised a masterful game plan that might possibly used in the days ahead. The wrap sheet is already out - stop the guards (threes) you beat Duke, plain and simple. I hope K can utilize Greyson a little more - this kid can flat out play if given the green. I hope he's not given a short leash.

NYBri
03-14-2015, 09:35 AM
Jah is a very naturally gifted offensive player who has spent a long time honing those skills. You don't need great competition to do it necessarily.

D is a different skill set that needs:

1. Instinct
2. Desire
3. Challenging compitition

I believe he has 2., lacks 1. and, until this year, I would suspect he hasn't run up against too many teams and/or players that have given him much of 3.

If he was simply looking to make himself a complete player, not just an offensively gifted one,before he went to the NBA, he should spend another year in college.

However, the world doesn't work that way and he'll have to learn that skill on the job with, in all likelyhood, a pretty lousy NBA team that will lose a lot of games 110 - 89.

I love Jah and it's pure joy to watch him with the ball in his hands, but painful to watch him back off when folks drive the lane.

That said, his defensive game was certainly not the only reason we lost last night, but in-the-paint defense was certainly a contributing factor.

I love this team. Let's win 6.

sagegrouse
03-14-2015, 09:43 AM
My notes on the game:


No moxie until it was too late.

No shooting -- 3-17 from three-point range.

Really dumb TO's.

Return to earth of the two all-world subs against State, Grayson and Marshall (aren't these last names?).

75Crazie
03-14-2015, 09:43 AM
I'm not saying the refs weren't making bad calls, but that happens in varying degrees every game. ND would no doubt point out some questionable ones that went against them, with the two offensive ones Matt drew that almost allowed us to get back in the game as an example.
The two Matt Jones phantom calls, sandwiched around a horrible non-call while Duke was on offense, put a lie to anybody who tries to blame this loss on officiating. The officiating was bad, yes ... but not biased. Blaming the refs is a loser's game and I would like to think that we are better than that here.

dukelifer
03-14-2015, 09:43 AM
It's always interesting to read/listen-to K's post game presser:
http://raycomsports.com/sports_labs_docs/m-baskbl/2015_mbb_quotes12.pdf

-The last 16 minutes, we were fine, the first 24 we were not mentally there "it was like a different team"
-We had chances to win but missed wide open shots we usually make, probably putting too much pressure on making each one (cited Quinn)
-Shuts down any line of questioning related to last year's early NCAA exit, each team is different, he loved last year's team and loves this year's team

Every team is different but the previous year's loss does add to the pressure -particularly a program like Duke. It will be in their minds. Yesterday's game was a clunker- it happens. But no matter how good the year- stuff can happen in a game and you can never right the ship and then it is over. This is why winning a championship every year is hard. Makes you really appreciate how hard it was to win that string of ACC championships. Anything can happen.

Utley
03-14-2015, 09:49 AM
This Board is great insight into human psychology. After the UNC and State wins - bring on KY. Lose to ND - watch out for the next Mercer and Lehigh.

It's obviously impossible to know what will happen, but I do take comfort that this was the #11 team in the country last night who is also a tough match up for us - the kinf of team we would see in an Elite 8 game. I believe this team - and the coaching - are at a different level than our first round efforts and that this team has won the benefit of the doubt.

Let's Go Duke!

PS - Kudos to Billy Dat for the optimism in the in game thread - gave me a shot im the arm anyway

CharlestonDave
03-14-2015, 10:06 AM
If you don't care how ND does tonight, then you need to engage in deep introspection.

I would not pull for UNC-Cheat against anyone in the ACC, not even the aliens from upstate New York.

The last time I was this mad at a loss was the last regular season game of 1974, when I through a chair against a wall and it stuck in the drywall.

That is sheer nonsense. To engage in ," deep introspection", over a basketball game is lunacy. There are many things in life that would force me to engage in ," deep introspection", but a basketball game is certainly not one of them.

I am not pulling for anyone; won't even watch the game.

I can't imagine where your head would be if there was a Kentucky-UNC Final game !!!

Kedsy
03-14-2015, 10:06 AM
Before the game I had a thought, but didn't post it for fear of being negative. The rationale behind my rematch hypothesis suggested that Duke might underestimate Notre Dame, a team we'd beaten by 30 last time out; might be unprepared for the intensity the Irish would bring to a tournament game; might get knocked back. If that came to pass, whether we won or not would depend on how deep a hole we dug for ourselves. And as it turned out, just a little too deep.

I'll have to give it some more thought, but moving forward I might be more afraid of a 7-, 8-, 9-, or 10-seed in the second round or a 4-, 5-, 6-seed in the Sweet 16 than I am of Kentucky in the Elite Eight or Final Four. No chance of underestimating Kentucky.

NancyCarol
03-14-2015, 10:11 AM
The good news is we'll be rested for the big dance.
Maybe everyone had the flu. Sigh.

weezie
03-14-2015, 10:19 AM
...I'll have to give it some more thought, but moving forward I might be more afraid of a 7-, 8-, 9-, or 10-seed in the second round or a 4-, 5-, 6-seed in the Sweet 16 than I am of Kentucky in the Elite Eight or Final Four...

Cold sweat: terps #3 east or south

nyesq83
03-14-2015, 10:31 AM
After the State game, K said Quinn had been sick and they needed to keep him hydrated. I think Quinn was a bit drained last night.

Forgive me if I repeat but I couldn't read the whole thread.

I agree with the assessment that this team's freshmen made the youthful mistake of coming out slow in the first half.
I feared the youngsters might think ND would be a cakewalk after Plumlee's dunk fest.
It finally came to pass that Okafor's missed freebies really contributed to the loss - but as a team it was all about lackluster shooting and lack of timely rebounding.

Here's hoping the team learned that it takes better initial effort in elimination games.

Both UVA and Duke had been coming back in the second half in many games late in the season, and both fell short yesterday to teams that took advantage of their shortened benches.

I missed the first half and listened to the Bobcast for the second, so I had no visuals.
Refs seemed whistle happy last night after the crash fest vs. State. Maybe we fouled a lot because our guys were lethargic. I am not sure.

Our guys need to quickly learn, adapt, survive and advance. I think they can do it. They have the talent AND the band of brothers chemistry, something sorely lacking in recent teams. Go Duke!

CDu
03-14-2015, 10:33 AM
Before the game I had a thought, but didn't post it for fear of being negative. The rationale behind my rematch hypothesis suggested that Duke might underestimate Notre Dame, a team we'd beaten by 30 last time out; might be unprepared for the intensity the Irish would bring to a tournament game; might get knocked back. If that came to pass, whether we won or not would depend on how deep a hole we dug for ourselves. And as it turned out, just a little too deep.

I'll have to give it some more thought, but moving forward I might be more afraid of a 7-, 8-, 9-, or 10-seed in the second round or a 4-, 5-, 6-seed in the Sweet 16 than I am of Kentucky in the Elite Eight or Final Four. No chance of underestimating Kentucky.

Yup. This team has had a focus problem all season. Early in the season, we stayed just focused enough to win games comfortably. Then, the NC State game and Miami games happened, where we weren't focused and got pantsed. Then, we had another hiccup against Notre Dame. And so on. But the recurring them is that, against teams we think we should beat comfortably (i.e., don't give enough respect coming in), we run the risk of losing. It happened against Wake the first time. It happened against VT. It happened last night.

Honestly, I have no idea what to think about our tourney chances. On the one hand, we could absolutely win against any team in the field (including Kentucky). We have that much talent. But we could also absolutely lose in the first weekend. We have that much trouble staying focused against supposedly inferior competition.

My suspicion/fear is that, because of our inconsistency in focus, we will lose in either the Round of 32 or the Sweet 16. Not because that is our talent level, but because that is our focus level. But I certainly hope a healthy and hungry Cook will get these guys back on track, and keep them there.

lotusland
03-14-2015, 10:38 AM
I do care what Notre Dame does tonight. I really want them to beat UNC.

Right. I want banners to come down in the Nose Dome not go up.

kcarson
03-14-2015, 10:41 AM
I think David Aldridge was right when he said some Duke fans become insufferable this time of year. We lost to a solid Notre Dame team on a neutral court AND almost came back to win the game when we played HORRIBLY for 24 minutes. Don't get me wrong, I've been there too. I began questioning this team's fight minutes into the second half (despite them showing it time and time again) and then they make a run to get right back into the game. That's impressive. It sucks to lose, but I'm pretty satisfied knowing that this team doesn't give up and even in our worst game since Miami/NC State we had a chance to win down the stretch with a couple of breaks our way. This team is a joy to watch. That remains true even if we lose to North Florida or Lafayette next weekend. But I also think there's no reason to believe this team is as susceptible to an early-round exit like squads of previous years.

tbyers11
03-14-2015, 10:53 AM
Bilas agrees that officiating was bad: except his take is Duke gets all the calls. Must be in the ESPN announcer handbook.

Normally I don't have a problem with Bilas as an announcer. I don't think he has an anti-Duke bias in the slightest. However, last night he seemed to go on a 30 second diatribe on every questionable call that favored Duke and ignored or barely even discussed the questionable calls that favored ND. Some of this had to do with what replays ESPN chose to show but I found it off-putting last night. There was no discussion of the Matt Jones "foul" near half-court and Jay stopped himself mid-sentence when he started to dispute a foul called against Quinn on a Demetrius Jackson drive where the replay showed that Jackson lost his balance on his spin move into the lane and was untouched.

That being said the refs did not cost Duke the game in the slightest. Our total lack of defense and lack of intelligent offensive play in the first 15 minutes dug us too big of hole against a very good ND team. We had no margin for error in the 2nd half and needed to play a nearly perfect game to make the comeback. We got close but you could see how much pressure there was on every possession to make the big play.

Another point that I don't think has gotten enough recognition. Notre Dame is a REALLY, REALLY good team. They are 28-5 and if they win tonight they should be a 3 seed. We played like crap most of the first half but ND also executed their game plan on both ends to perfection.
I think the team and many people, including myself, didn't give ND enough respect because 1) we demolished them at Cameron and their defense has been pretty bad all year. I feel that against most teams we still probably could have come back to win after our poor first half because we probably wouldn't have been down 15 at half. However, the worrisome thing is that most of the teams that we will be playing after Friday's game and definitely from the Sweet 16 onward will be of ND quality. We have to bring focus from the tip every game from here on out.

fuse
03-14-2015, 11:15 AM
Disappointed for Quinn.

I'm optimistic that a week of rest and the loss provides focus for a 6 game win streak.

Go Duke!

Channing
03-14-2015, 11:49 AM
Everyone played poorly, at least in stretches. Tyus had trouble getting gong and was a bit more careless than usual (especially that Tokoto-esque miscue near the end when he took his eye off the ball). Quinn had some mental lapsesans winslow disappeared for half the game.

But, can we take a second to appreciate how awesome it is to have a player (freshman no less) whom people just concede is impossible to guard 1 on 1; who, when guarded one on one, converts 75+ percent of the time? That is incredible!!!

Emerrick
03-14-2015, 12:02 PM
Well... That was certainly disappointing.

I hate the phrase, but I'll say it - "Better to lose now, than later.."

The question of the entire year is "Do we have "it", whatever "it" is"? I even started using the phrase at work. I think we'll be well prepared for the first game. There is no chance of a first round exit. It's the later games that scare me. Hopefully, we'll have "it" and carry "it" into April. Whatever happens, this has been a fun year of basketball and, whatever happens, I'm going to miss "it" when "it" ends. Let's bring home a national championship. This team can win '"it".

Lastly, I never thought I'd ever, ever say this, but I'm gonna miss Quinn. I love watching kids mature and he has matured like no other I've seen in many years. Hopefully, he can carry his success this year forward.

Go Duke!

davekay1971
03-14-2015, 12:11 PM
Good and bad.

Good
1) We played our worst half of the season and still had a chance to beat a legitimate top 15 team in the end, and it wasn't because Notre Dame stopped playing or, frankly, that we played incredibly well in the second half. Notre Dame played well all game - they didn't "let us back in", we fought our way back in, even though we never played our best basketball at any point last night.
2) Okafor re-emerged as the guy who can be the focal point of our offense. The kid was sensational. The announcers kept on blathering about how Notre Dame's decision to play him one-on-one was a great success. No it wasn't. Okafor tore them up and single-handedly kept Duke in the game.

Bad
1) Our defense was awful in the first half, was okay in the second half, but not nearly good enough. We have been a much better defensive team at times this year. Unfortunately this team still seems to let a struggling offense effect the defense. To be great, they will have to play at least one game in their next six where the offense is struggling but the defense keeps them in it.
2) One of those nights where all of our shooters were off on the same night. Probably won't happen again, but it can, and that's where we need the point above to kick in.
3) Jahlil's free throws. Oy vey. When he was fouled with under 2 left in the game and Duke down by 4, that was it. The way he rushed to try to rebound the second free throw, you know he was as certain as Mike Brey and me were that his free throw wasn't going in. They need to sacrifice a chicken, or a ram (I know where to get one), or pray to Jobu, or something.

This team is going to be a 1 or 2 seed. I hope that this game was a wake-up that they have to bring the intensity every night, from the opening tip. This is a complete Duke team, with great players and great role players. But it's young, and young teams tend to "pull a NC State" at times, which is what we did for the opening twenty minutes last night.

Maybe we'll see Jahlil at the free throw line, Duke down 1, three seconds left in the NC game, and we'll read his lips as he says, "I'm p****d off now, Jobu. Look, I go to you. I stick up for you. You no help me now. I say '**** you Jobu', I do it myself." Both free throws are good. Duke wins.

superdave
03-14-2015, 12:21 PM
Good and bad.

Good
1) We played our worst half of the season and still had a chance to beat a legitimate top 15 team in the end, and it wasn't because Notre Dame stopped playing or, frankly, that we played incredibly well in the second half. Notre Dame played well all game - they didn't "let us back in", we fought our way back in, even though we never played our best basketball at any point last night.
2) Okafor re-emerged as the guy who can be the focal point of our offense. The kid was sensational. The announcers kept on blathering about how Notre Dame's decision to play him one-on-one was a great success. No it wasn't. Okafor tore them up and single-handedly kept Duke in the game.

Bad
1) Our defense was awful in the first half, was okay in the second half, but not nearly good enough. We have been a much better defensive team at times this year. Unfortunately this team still seems to let a struggling offense effect the defense. To be great, they will have to play at least one game in their next six where the offense is struggling but the defense keeps them in it.
2) One of those nights where all of our shooters were off on the same night. Probably won't happen again, but it can, and that's where we need the point above to kick in.
3) Jahlil's free throws. Oy vey. When he was fouled with under 2 left in the game and Duke down by 4, that was it. The way he rushed to try to rebound the second free throw, you know he was as certain as Mike Brey and me were that his free throw wasn't going in. They need to sacrifice a chicken, or a ram (I know where to get one), or pray to Jobu, or something.

This team is going to be a 1 or 2 seed. I hope that this game was a wake-up that they have to bring the intensity every night, from the opening tip. This is a complete Duke team, with great players and great role players. But it's young, and young teams tend to "pull a NC State" at times, which is what we did for the opening twenty minutes last night.

Maybe we'll see Jahlil at the free throw line, Duke down 1, three seconds left in the NC game, and we'll read his lips as he says, "I'm p****d off now, Jobu. Look, I go to you. I stick up for you. You no help me now. I say '**** you Jobu', I do it myself." Both free throws are good. Duke wins.

I posted a couple of months ago that if Jah wanted to be national player of the year he would eat, sleep and pee free throws. He obviously came up short last night. He also won't be winning the Wooden award. But a national championship is in play. I hope he loses sleep over his late missed free throws last night. I hope that haunts him and drives him to not let that happen again. How bad does he want it? I would love to see more fire from him.

dyedwab
03-14-2015, 12:21 PM
I want to expand the point re this being about focus, energy, and intensity rather than tactics and strategy. This team has obvious and enormous strengths. It also have well-chewed over weaknesses that teams with certain characteristics can exploit. The thing about this team is that is perhaps the most tactically and strategically flexible team I've ever seen under K. And its not just on the defensive end. Last night was an example. Once we got our heads in the game, we saw that ND was basically gonna let Okafor do whatever he wanted - so that's how we played offense. In other games, Okafor was doubled, so he passed to open shooter. Still others had Okafor occupying defenders in the lane so Quinn, Tyus, and Justise had driving lanes.

My point? We have been able to respond to whatever the other team decides to do in almost every game this season. Even last night. We dug too big a hole, but its not like ND's game plan changed after we removed our collective heads from our collective posteriors. But the key to doing that is the have the focus, intensity, and energy to be able to realize what's going on, and exploit it. That requires not underestimating our opponents, and not letting them hang around by making sloppy plays (side note: I wish basketball had a statistic like tennis does "unforced errors": We committed oodles of those in the first half).

Which leads me to this - Coach K may be shutting down comparisons to Lehigh/Mercer but I'd be stunned if Quinn Cook isn't letting his younger teammates how unwilling he is to go through that again.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-14-2015, 12:27 PM
That is sheer nonsense. To engage in ," deep introspection", over a basketball game is lunacy. There are many things in life that would force me to engage in ," deep introspection", but a basketball game is certainly not one of them.

I am not pulling for anyone; won't even watch the game.

I can't imagine where your head would be if there was a Kentucky-UNC Final game !!!

I'm with you. In fact, I'm somewhat relieved to get a "night off." This time of year takes it out of me.

wsb3
03-14-2015, 12:40 PM
Duke had not lost since January. Pretty amazing run & when it was 4-3 in the conference I did not see it coming. I hoped but no way did I see us winning every conference game after that. We get spoiled by the greatness of Duke and Coach K. And please note I said, We.

Listened to Coach K press conference & he was asked about Cook being sick. He of course deflected it by not offering excuses. Still with our tender ankles and if Cook or others are under the weather this may turn out to be a blessing in disguise. Yes, especially for Cook I wanted to see the ACC Banner go up but next week begins what matters most. And I hope each player is at 100%.

Love Duke Basketball win or lose.

NSDukeFan
03-14-2015, 12:58 PM
It's always interesting to read/listen-to K's post game presser:
http://raycomsports.com/sports_labs_docs/m-baskbl/2015_mbb_quotes12.pdf

-The last 16 minutes, we were fine, the first 24 we were not mentally there "it was like a different team"
-We had chances to win but missed wide open shots we usually make, probably putting too much pressure on making each one (cited Quinn)
-Shuts down any line of questioning related to last year's early NCAA exit, each team is different, he loved last year's team and loves this year's team
That was interesting, as usual. My favorite part was when he discussed last year's team and the question was how the team didn't live up to expectations. Coach said they met his expectations and won 26 games and that he really liked the team. I agree. I really liked last year's team and enjoyed those 26 wins. I don't believe a ream's success should be judged solely on their last loss.

Well, maybe, and the Knicks have shown the ability to make dumb moves, so anything is possible. Jahlil's footwork and moves around the basket are God-given. To say that Towns or anyone can "develop" those skills seems like a stretch. Moreover, a player with Jah's strength, coordination and reflexes can learn defense, which he was not required to play before his freshman year.

You may be right , though, and we see a repeat of the "Dan Marino over-scouting phenomenon," where a player is examined under the microscope for flaws to the extent that his dominant virtues get overlooked.

Kindly, Sage
'Not everyone remembers the 1983 NFL draft, the "year of the quarterbacks," when Marino was the sixth QB chosen due to imagined flaws in his passing game and then went on to set beaucoup records in the NFL'
I believe a GM who passes on Jahlil won't be thought of very well as an NBA GM. His offensive skill is outstanding and he has shown glimpses of being a capable defender. I expect his great offensive footwork could translate to decent defensive footwork with time and effort.

KandG
03-14-2015, 01:08 PM
Interesting footnote to the end of the winning streak...everybody's been talking about Brey's brilliant plan to stop the guards and single cover Okafor. But the fact is that Cook & Jones have been on the scouting reports of every team for most if not all the season.

The team is a team with multiple disparate skills that have blended together well all season, but I know personally before every game all season, I've been thinking: "Justise Winslow, Justise Winslow, Justise Winslow..."

I've always felt the ability of the wings to get going, whether it's Justise, Matt or more recently Grayson, really opens up the offense for everyone else. Winslow's first half yesterday -- 0 for 2 FGs, 3 turnovers -- stood out for how awful it was, especially when you consider his first half numbers for the 12 game winning streak. He's averaged just under NINE points in the first half during the winning streak.

For Winslow, that includes 10 first half points vs Georgia Tech, 11 vs Virginia, 17 vs Clemson, 15 vs Syracuse, and most recently 11 first half points vs NC State. His only (relatively) quiet first half in that streak was a two point first half vs Florida State.

It's no coincidence that the comeback vs ND in the second half coincided with Justise being aggressive, not only in transition, but in running the pick and roll with Okafor. There are a number of things to tweak before the tournament starts next week, but Justise keeping his focus and aggression high from the start of the game is going to have to be a given from now on.

jv001
03-14-2015, 01:24 PM
Interesting footnote to the end of the winning streak...everybody's been talking about Brey's brilliant plan to stop the guards and single cover Okafor. But the fact is that Cook & Jones have been on the scouting reports of every team for most if not all the season.

The team is a team with multiple disparate skills that have blended together well all season, but I know personally before every game all season, I've been thinking: "Justise Winslow, Justise Winslow, Justise Winslow..."

I've always felt the ability of the wings to get going, whether it's Justise, Matt or more recently Grayson, really opens up the offense for everyone else. Winslow's first half yesterday -- 0 for 2 FGs, 3 turnovers -- stood out for how awful it was, especially when you consider his first half numbers for the 12 game winning streak. He's averaged just under NINE points in the first half during the winning streak.

For Winslow, that includes 10 first half points vs Georgia Tech, 11 vs Virginia, 17 vs Clemson, 15 vs Syracuse, and most recently 11 first half points vs NC State. His only (relatively) quiet first half in that streak was a two point first half vs Florida State.

It's no coincidence that the comeback vs ND in the second half coincided with Justise being aggressive, not only in transition, but in running the pick and roll with Okafor. There are a number of things to tweak before the tournament starts next week, but Justise keeping his focus and aggression high from the start of the game is going to have to be a given from now on.

Like I said last night or early this am, Justise is our most important player and he had a terrible start in last night's game. So bad, that Coach K didn't start him in the 2nd half. We need him to play all the time like he did in the 2nd half. GoDuke!

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-14-2015, 01:34 PM
Interesting footnote to the end of the winning streak...everybody's been talking about Brey's brilliant plan to stop the guards and single cover Okafor. But the fact is that Cook & Jones have been on the scouting reports of every team for most if not all the season.

The team is a team with multiple disparate skills that have blended together well all season, but I know personally before every game all season, I've been thinking: "Justise Winslow, Justise Winslow, Justise Winslow..."

I've always felt the ability of the wings to get going, whether it's Justise, Matt or more recently Grayson, really opens up the offense for everyone else. Winslow's first half yesterday -- 0 for 2 FGs, 3 turnovers -- stood out for how awful it was, especially when you consider his first half numbers for the 12 game winning streak. He's averaged just under NINE points in the first half during the winning streak.

For Winslow, that includes 10 first half points vs Georgia Tech, 11 vs Virginia, 17 vs Clemson, 15 vs Syracuse, and most recently 11 first half points vs NC State. His only (relatively) quiet first half in that streak was a two point first half vs Florida State.

It's no coincidence that the comeback vs ND in the second half coincided with Justise being aggressive, not only in transition, but in running the pick and roll with Okafor. There are a number of things to tweak before the tournament starts next week, but Justise keeping his focus and aggression high from the start of the game is going to have to be a given from now on.

My Tar Heel Neighbor was consistently driven insane during both Duke/UNC tilts by Roy's insistence on double-teaming Jahlil. His reasoning was "he passes so danged well, and it's not like two guys can stop him much better than one or three."

CR9
03-14-2015, 01:40 PM
This Board is great insight into human psychology. After the UNC and State wins - bring on KY. Lose to ND - watch out for the next Mercer and Lehigh.

It's obviously impossible to know what will happen, but I do take comfort that this was the #11 team in the country last night who is also a tough match up for us - the kinf of team we would see in an Elite 8 game. I believe this team - and the coaching - are at a different level than our first round efforts and that this team has won the benefit of the doubt.

Let's Go Duke!

PS - Kudos to Billy Dat for the optimism in the in game thread - gave me a shot im the arm anyway

Comes with the territory of being a jump shooting team.

I was pretty pissed with the lethargy and actually stopped watching because I wasn't overly bothered about losing early (I was mad, however, that I called and yelled at Dish to get my TV working in time for the game only to see that) but the way they lost irks me greatly. They looked like they didn't want to be there, especially Justise and Tyus, I thought. Q was incredibly poor as he usually is in the ACCT*, which is the most disappointing part. Would've liked to see them win it cause it's been a while but hopefully this is used to motivate the squad. But somehow I doubt it.

*Q's ACCT #'s (Not count Frosh year or Clemson last season [12 mins]):

MPG: 30
PPG: 10 - 17 of 40/42% - 8 of 20/40% from 3
APG: 2.6
RPG: 3.2

And the PPG number is carried by the 2 games against NCSU (29 points in 2 games). In the games Duke has lost:

MPG: 34
PPG: 7 - 8 of 28/28% - 3 of 14/21% from 3
APG: 3.3
RPG: 3.6

Just not good enough, for me.

#1Duke
03-14-2015, 01:47 PM
Like I said last night or early this am, Justise is our most important player and he had a terrible start in last night's game. So bad, that Coach K didn't start him in the 2nd half. We need him to play all the time like he did in the 2nd half. GoDuke!

Could not agree more with that statement!!

NashvilleDevil
03-14-2015, 01:50 PM
Comes with the territory of being a jump shooting team.

I was pretty pissed with the lethargy and actually stopped watching because I wasn't overly bothered about losing early (I was mad, however, that I called and yelled at Dish to get my TV working in time for the game only to see that) but the way they lost irks me greatly. They looked like they didn't want to be there, especially Justise and Tyus, I thought. Q was incredibly poor as he usually is in the ACCT*, which is the most disappointing part. Would've liked to see them win it cause it's been a while but hopefully this is used to motivate the squad. But somehow I doubt it.

*Q's ACCT #'s (Not count Frosh year or Clemson last season [12 mins]):

MPG: 30
PPG: 10 - 17 of 40/42% - 8 of 20/40% from 3
APG: 2.6
RPG: 3.2

And the PPG number is carried by the 2 games against NCSU (29 points in 2 games). In the games Duke has lost:

MPG: 34
PPG: 7 - 8 of 28/28% - 3 of 14/21% from 3
APG: 3.3
RPG: 3.6

Just not good enough, for me.

If it's not good enough for you imagine how the guys playing and coaching feel? Your bashing of Quinn is going a little to far in my opinion.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-14-2015, 01:52 PM
Comes with the territory of being a jump shooting team.

I was pretty pissed with the lethargy and actually stopped watching because I wasn't overly bothered about losing early (I was mad, however, that I called and yelled at Dish to get my TV working in time for the game only to see that) but the way they lost irks me greatly. They looked like they didn't want to be there, especially Justise and Tyus, I thought. Q was incredibly poor as he usually is in the ACCT*, which is the most disappointing part. Would've liked to see them win it cause it's been a while but hopefully this is used to motivate the squad. But somehow I doubt it.

*Q's ACCT #'s (Not count Frosh year or Clemson last season [12 mins]):

MPG: 30
PPG: 10 - 17 of 40/42% - 8 of 20/40% from 3
APG: 2.6
RPG: 3.2

And the PPG number is carried by the 2 games against NCSU (29 points in 2 games). In the games Duke has lost:

MPG: 34
PPG: 7 - 8 of 28/28% - 3 of 14/21% from 3
APG: 3.3
RPG: 3.6

Just not good enough, for me.

I would argue that it comes with today's "what did you do for me 24 hours ago" mentality and has nothing to do with our shooting. Turn on sports talk radio - after a win everyone talks playoffs. After a loss, the coach is a bum and needs to go. For some reason, the "long view" mentality seems to be in short supply.

Also, I don't disagree with the fact that our team looked uninspired yesterday from the get-go, but how the heck do you explain breaking down Quinn's numbers while not including his freshman year or a game against Clemson last year? Seems extremely arbitrary to me.

davekay1971
03-14-2015, 02:21 PM
Comes with the territory of being a jump shooting team.

I was pretty pissed with the lethargy and actually stopped watching because I wasn't overly bothered about losing early (I was mad, however, that I called and yelled at Dish to get my TV working in time for the game only to see that) but the way they lost irks me greatly. They looked like they didn't want to be there, especially Justise and Tyus, I thought. Q was incredibly poor as he usually is in the ACCT*, which is the most disappointing part. Would've liked to see them win it cause it's been a while but hopefully this is used to motivate the squad. But somehow I doubt it.

*Q's ACCT #'s (Not count Frosh year or Clemson last season [12 mins]):

MPG: 30
PPG: 10 - 17 of 40/42% - 8 of 20/40% from 3
APG: 2.6
RPG: 3.2

And the PPG number is carried by the 2 games against NCSU (29 points in 2 games). In the games Duke has lost:

MPG: 34
PPG: 7 - 8 of 28/28% - 3 of 14/21% from 3
APG: 3.3
RPG: 3.6

Just not good enough, for me.


This Duke team is a jump-shooting team? Funny, because, while they can hit the 3, we have a terrific post man who is basically tied for our scoring lead, a slasher among out top scorers in Justise, and a PG who's a good three point shooter but gets most of his production on drives. This team, like many, can fall too deeply in love with the 3 (there was at least one 3 attempt hoisted up yesterday, too quickly and out of synch, that killed momentum). But it's absolutely not a jump shooting team. You're going off the stereotype of Duke teams of the past, and applying it incorrectly to the 2014-2015 team.

I'll deal with your statistical analysis by noting that, if you intentionally cull out the data points that don't fit your theory, the data you have left will tend to fit your theory. But it'll be worthless. (If we eliminate all the patients who had a heart attack on this new drug, we find that no patients had a heart attack while taking this drug!)

It breaks my heart for you that the team didn't play well enough for you after you had to go through all the trouble of calling Direct TV. Also, duly noted that Quinn's performance was "not good enough, for [you]", and that their performance as a whole "irks [you] greatly". Go back and reread your post...I assume you didn't mean to come across sounding as petulant as you did.

jipops
03-14-2015, 02:29 PM
Good and bad.

Good
1) We played our worst half of the season and still had a chance to beat a legitimate top 15 team in the end, and it wasn't because Notre Dame stopped playing or, frankly, that we played incredibly well in the second half. Notre Dame played well all game - they didn't "let us back in", we fought our way back in, even though we never played our best basketball at any point last night.
2) Okafor re-emerged as the guy who can be the focal point of our offense. The kid was sensational. The announcers kept on blathering about how Notre Dame's decision to play him one-on-one was a great success. No it wasn't. Okafor tore them up and single-handedly kept Duke in the game.

Bad
1) Our defense was awful in the first half, was okay in the second half, but not nearly good enough. We have been a much better defensive team at times this year. Unfortunately this team still seems to let a struggling offense effect the defense. To be great, they will have to play at least one game in their next six where the offense is struggling but the defense keeps them in it.
2) One of those nights where all of our shooters were off on the same night. Probably won't happen again, but it can, and that's where we need the point above to kick in.
3) Jahlil's free throws. Oy vey. When he was fouled with under 2 left in the game and Duke down by 4, that was it. The way he rushed to try to rebound the second free throw, you know he was as certain as Mike Brey and me were that his free throw wasn't going in. They need to sacrifice a chicken, or a ram (I know where to get one), or pray to Jobu, or something.

This team is going to be a 1 or 2 seed. I hope that this game was a wake-up that they have to bring the intensity every night, from the opening tip. This is a complete Duke team, with great players and great role players. But it's young, and young teams tend to "pull a NC State" at times, which is what we did for the opening twenty minutes last night.

Maybe we'll see Jahlil at the free throw line, Duke down 1, three seconds left in the NC game, and we'll read his lips as he says, "I'm p****d off now, Jobu. Look, I go to you. I stick up for you. You no help me now. I say '**** you Jobu', I do it myself." Both free throws are good. Duke wins.

And I believe this to be a by-product of a core dominated by inexperienced players. Last year was a similar problem where we had an inexperienced core of players who had not played together. It's just going to happen as a result of human nature and guys who have not played together for multiple seasons. I believe we showed marked progress over the last few weeks in defense even though there were still some holes. But we're just going to be a little more susceptible to losing focus on the defensive end than a lot of other teams. That's just how the makeup of this team is.

And yea, Jahlil needs to pull a Pedro Cerrano.

jipops
03-14-2015, 02:34 PM
Comes with the territory of being a jump shooting team.


As we were beaten by a non-jump shooting team? Are there other teams that don't take jump shots? Have jump shots become an irregular part of the game?

bluenorth
03-14-2015, 02:46 PM
Sure it was a disappointing game and result, but there's got to be a silver lining. The players look tired and banged up, so this will give them an extra day's rest. It also should give the freshmen a chance to digest just what the difference is between the regular season and tournament time. I'm positive that Coach K will deliver that message loud and clear to them. No early exit this year!

The comments about the Knicks and their views on Okafor were interesting. His weak defence has been noted, but maybe Coach has told him to stay out of foul trouble. He can still do himself some good at the NBA combine and workouts by dominating at both ends of the floor. The measurements will be key too. For example, what is his true height, vertical jump, and wingspan? I'm assuming that he'll declare and move to the pros, but wishing he'd stay for another year.

uh_no
03-14-2015, 02:47 PM
Sure it was a disappointing game and result, but there's got to be a silver lining. The players look tired and banged up, so this will give them an extra day's rest. It also should give the freshmen a chance to digest just what the difference is between the regular season and tournament time. I'm positive that Coach K will deliver that message loud and clear to them. No early exit this year!

The comments about the Knicks and their views on Okafor were interesting. His weak defence has been noted, but maybe Coach has told him to stay out of foul trouble. He can still do himself some good at the NBA combine and workouts by dominating at both ends of the floor. The measurements will be key too. For example, what is his true height, vertical jump, and wingspan? I'm assuming that he'll declare and move to the pros, but wishing he'd stay for another year.

sounds like a perfect fit.

BobbyFan
03-14-2015, 05:20 PM
Normally I don't have a problem with Bilas as an announcer. I don't think he has an anti-Duke bias in the slightest. However, last night he seemed to go on a 30 second diatribe on every questionable call that favored Duke and ignored or barely even discussed the questionable calls that favored ND. Some of this had to do with what replays ESPN chose to show but I found it off-putting last night. There was no discussion of the Matt Jones "foul" near half-court and Jay stopped himself mid-sentence when he started to dispute a foul called against Quinn on a Demetrius Jackson drive where the replay showed that Jackson lost his balance on his spin move into the lane and was untouched.

Bilas was near unlistenable. Refs will miss calls in every game, and sometimes, like last night, miss many. And they should be graded and evaluated. But to me, discussing refs never adds to my enjoyment as a sports fan. I want to watch and concentrate on the action. Bilas, however, can make it a dominating theme of the telecast by harping incessantly on every missed call. It's unfortunate because it takes away from his analysis of the actual game.

kexman
03-14-2015, 05:30 PM
I had two thoughts about the game beside what has been said...

1) Lack of energy: Around the time we cut the lead to around 8 points and had potentially a little momentum going and Cook made a little dive on defense to deflect the ball out of bounds. I expected some energy/enthusiasm from the rest of the team. Not a single player ran to help him up... Your captain dives to deflect the ball and you are on a little run to try and get some momentum and no one seemed to care...

2) I will defer to the genius of Mike Brey and single teaming Okafor. However, Okafor shot 72% in the game. He shoots 67% for the season. We would need to shoot 45% from 3 to equal that. It seems to me the thing it did was frustrate our guards and they still took the number of shots they normally do in a game. I think the fault was Okafor probably should have shot 40 times in the game. If they really were going to single team Okafor the offense should have been pass to Okafor and get out of his way. First guard to take a contested shot takes a seat next to Coach K. He shot 72%...he needed more shots.

CR9
03-14-2015, 05:44 PM
I would argue that it comes with today's "what did you do for me 24 hours ago" mentality and has nothing to do with our shooting. Turn on sports talk radio - after a win everyone talks playoffs. After a loss, the coach is a bum and needs to go. For some reason, the "long view" mentality seems to be in short supply.

Also, I don't disagree with the fact that our team looked uninspired yesterday from the get-go, but how the heck do you explain breaking down Quinn's numbers while not including his freshman year or a game against Clemson last year? Seems extremely arbitrary to me.

In his freshman year, he played 3 minutes and 9 minutes in the two games and only 12 against Clemson. I only did games he played a big part in as it seemed like the greater minutes was a greater sample size and comparison. And it was more a comparison of the high variance with jump shooting teams and the fickleness of fans/media.

rsvman
03-14-2015, 06:04 PM
I had two thoughts about the game beside what has been said...

1) Lack of energy: Around the time we cut the lead to around 8 points and had potentially a little momentum going and Cook made a little dive on defense to deflect the ball out of bounds. I expected some energy/enthusiasm from the rest of the team. Not a single player ran to help him up... Your captain dives to deflect the ball and you are on a little run to try and get some momentum and no one seemed to care...

2) I will defer to the genius of Mike Brey and single teaming Okafor. However, Okafor shot 72% in the game. He shoots 67% for the season. We would need to shoot 45% from 3 to equal that. It seems to me the thing it did was frustrate our guards and they still took the number of shots they normally do in a game. I think the fault was Okafor probably should have shot 40 times in the game. If they really were going to single team Okafor the offense should have been pass to Okafor and get out of his way. First guard to take a contested shot takes a seat next to Coach K. He shot 72%...he needed more shots.

Maybe, but you can't win trading twos for threes. Okafor gets a lay-up, and then ND gets an "and-1."

Can't win for losing, as they say.

duke96
03-14-2015, 06:14 PM
If this team had an egg like that to lay, I'm very glad we got it out of our system before the NCAA tournament!

CR9
03-14-2015, 06:44 PM
If it's not good enough for you imagine how the guys playing and coaching feel? Your bashing of Quinn is going a little to far in my opinion.


This Duke team is a jump-shooting team? Funny, because, while they can hit the 3, we have a terrific post man who is basically tied for our scoring lead, a slasher among out top scorers in Justise, and a PG who's a good three point shooter but gets most of his production on drives. This team, like many, can fall too deeply in love with the 3 (there was at least one 3 attempt hoisted up yesterday, too quickly and out of synch, that killed momentum). But it's absolutely not a jump shooting team. You're going off the stereotype of Duke teams of the past, and applying it incorrectly to the 2014-2015 team.

I'll deal with your statistical analysis by noting that, if you intentionally cull out the data points that don't fit your theory, the data you have left will tend to fit your theory. But it'll be worthless. (If we eliminate all the patients who had a heart attack on this new drug, we find that no patients had a heart attack while taking this drug!)

It breaks my heart for you that the team didn't play well enough for you after you had to go through all the trouble of calling Direct TV. Also, duly noted that Quinn's performance was "not good enough, for [you]", and that their performance as a whole "irks [you] greatly". Go back and reread your post...I assume you didn't mean to come across sounding as petulant as you did.
When I said 'not good enough, for me' it wasn't meant as 'Q is horrendous and should have his scholarship pulled because I don't think he's good enough'. It was the conclusion I came to after looking at his other games in the ACCT and considering just how involved he was in every game. I'm sure many will tell you his ACCT performances, at least statistically, have taken a drop off in the last 3 seasons by looking at those figures. That's merely all I did.

When I say 'jump shooting' I basically mean '3 point shooting' because, like you said, they fall in love with the 3. This Duke team takes 20 3's a game. Last years side took 23. The 2013 side took 19. The 2012 side 22. Which breaks down as:

2015 - 20 three's = 35% of shots
2014 - 23 - 40%
2013 - 19 - 33%
2012 - 22 - 39%
2011 - 21 - 35%

Those numbers seem relatively consistent to me but those teams were 'jump shooting' teams, were they not. It's just the offense that's run. It's perimeter based. It seems to me at least.

rsvman
03-14-2015, 07:00 PM
CR9, Coach K was an early adopter and has been a pretty consistent advocate of the 3-point shot ever since its inception. I don't think that's a secret at this point.

He's a true believer. You can do the math; to make the 2-point shot of equal value, you'd have to shoot half-again better. In other words, 40% shooting from 3-point land equates to 60% shooting from inside the arc. Coach K likely believes that, in general, it's easier to shoot 40% from 3 than it is to shoot 60% from two. Likewise, he has geared his defense over the years largely at neutralizing the opponent's 3-point shooting potential.

These approaches have led to a lot of criticism on this board, to be sure. On the other hand, they have also led to a boatload of victories. I think it's interesting how little objection is raised about the strategy when it leads to victory and how vociferously it is shot down when it leads to defeat. The good news is that it has led to victory WAY more often than it has led to defeat. I can live with that, and I guess we're all going to have to, because I don't see Coach K changing his stripes between now and next week. :)

sagegrouse
03-14-2015, 07:12 PM
When I said 'not good enough, for me' it wasn't meant as 'Q is horrendous and should have his scholarship pulled because I don't think he's good enough'. It was the conclusion I came to after looking at his other games in the ACCT and considering just how involved he was in every game. I'm sure many will tell you his ACCT performances, at least statistically, have taken a drop off in the last 3 seasons by looking at those figures. That's merely all I did.
.

Anyway, CR9, Duke players and coaches are gonna get defended on this Board, because it's a Duke fan Board and read by lots of non-Duke folks. Your wording was, at best, "dismissive" of a player who is this year's MVP and the admired captain of the team. Furthermore, if you reason backwards from losses, you are likely making big stat mistakes from the git-go.

mgtr
03-14-2015, 07:21 PM
CR9 - I guess that your major problem is that you had DISH instead of Directv. I did not have to call Directv, and on that system Duke won. Who can ask for more?;)

azzefkram
03-14-2015, 07:47 PM
When I said 'not good enough, for me' it wasn't meant as 'Q is horrendous and should have his scholarship pulled because I don't think he's good enough'. It was the conclusion I came to after looking at his other games in the ACCT and considering just how involved he was in every game. I'm sure many will tell you his ACCT performances, at least statistically, have taken a drop off in the last 3 seasons by looking at those figures. That's merely all I did.

When I say 'jump shooting' I basically mean '3 point shooting' because, like you said, they fall in love with the 3. This Duke team takes 20 3's a game. Last years side took 23. The 2013 side took 19. The 2012 side 22. Which breaks down as:

2015 - 20 three's = 35% of shots
2014 - 23 - 40%
2013 - 19 - 33%
2012 - 22 - 39%
2011 - 21 - 35%

Those numbers seem relatively consistent to me but those teams were 'jump shooting' teams, were they not. It's just the offense that's run. It's perimeter based. It seems to me at least.

35% is 164th out of 351 DI teams. Duke isn't particularly egregious with the 3pt shot. Duke takes about 27% of 2pt J's. That ranks about 248th. We take about 39% of our shots at the rim, good for 97th in DI. That means there are about 250 teams in DI that shoot more jump shots than us. Teams like Gonzaga, VA and Kansas just to name a few. This year's team is not a jump shooting team. Last year's team was different story. Jabari and Rodney loved their 2pt J's.

Quinn shoots 2pt J's at the second lowest rate of the entire teams (20%) and makes them at the highest % (40) of any perimeter player. In our 4 losses, Quinn had an ORtg of 135, 137, 128 and 66. At Wisc, UVA and UNC, Quinn had an ORtg of 140, 138 and 142. In our loss to Mercer last year Quinn had a 175.

Quinn had a bad game last night along with everyone else, coaches included. It happens. Quinn has had an outstanding senior campaign. I feel bad if you can't see that because it is one of the many bright spots of this year's team.

NSDukeFan
03-14-2015, 08:12 PM
I think Duke should get away from always being a jump shooting team and either go to the MP3 dunk shooting team or the set shot shooting team. Maybe Jahlil may want to try the Rick Barry underhand free throws, though.

CR9
03-14-2015, 08:35 PM
35% is 164th out of 351 DI teams. Duke isn't particularly egregious with the 3pt shot. Duke takes about 27% of 2pt J's. That ranks about 248th. We take about 39% of our shots at the rim, good for 97th in DI. That means there are about 250 teams in DI that shoot more jump shots than us. Teams like Gonzaga, VA and Kansas just to name a few. This year's team is not a jump shooting team. Last year's team was different story. Jabari and Rodney loved their 2pt J's.

Quinn shoots 2pt J's at the second lowest rate of the entire teams (20%) and makes them at the highest % (40) of any perimeter player. In our 4 losses, Quinn had an ORtg of 135, 137, 128 and 66. At Wisc, UVA and UNC, Quinn had an ORtg of 140, 138 and 142. In our loss to Mercer last year Quinn had a 175.

Quinn had a bad game last night along with everyone else, coaches included. It happens. Quinn has had an outstanding senior campaign. I feel bad if you can't see that because it is one of the many bright spots of this year's team.

Q's obviously having a fabulous year and I've never said otherwise.

At this point, I'm just gonna agree to disagree with most of you. It seems to me that this side are just as eager to trigger a 3 as his last handful of teams. And I'm not meaning these things as disparaging remarks. It works. Has for years and will likely continue to work. I just don't think my claim is as outlandish as it seems on here.

Wheat/"/"/"
03-14-2015, 08:45 PM
....I will defer to the genius of Mike Brey and single teaming Okafor. However, Okafor shot 72% in the game. He shoots 67% for the season. We would need to shoot 45% from 3 to equal that. It seems to me the thing it did was frustrate our guards and they still took the number of shots they normally do in a game. I think the fault was Okafor probably should have shot 40 times in the game. If they really were going to single team Okafor the offense should have been pass to Okafor and get out of his way. First guard to take a contested shot takes a seat next to Coach K. He shot 72%...he needed more shots.

I've thought all season long that the path to beat Duke had to start with neutralizing Cook. I think he's played great all season.

That happened last night.

By single teaming Okafor, and luring Duke into a half court game, ND took away Dukes flow and shooting rhythm. Duke likes to stop and pop shoot threes. The shooters, especially Cook, like the spot up kick out threes off dribble penetration...they didn't get those usual clean looks. ND did a nice job stoping penetration.
When it wasn't Okafor isolating, Duke was taking shots off the bounce, out of sync...and when they did get the preferred looks, ND was there to contest them because they didn't sag on Okafor.

That was the main issue to me other than ND playing really well. But it also just wasn't Dukes night. Those games happen.

jv001
03-14-2015, 09:00 PM
I've thought all season long that the path to beat Duke had to start with neutralizing Cook. I think he's played great all season.

That happened last night.

By single teaming Okafor, and luring Duke into a half court game, ND took away Dukes flow and shooting rhythm. Duke likes to stop and pop shoot threes. The shooters, especially Cook, like the spot up kick out threes off dribble penetration...they didn't get those usual clean looks. ND did a nice job stoping penetration. When it wasn't Okafor isolating, Duke was taking shots off the bounce, out of sync...and when they did get the preferred looks, ND was there to contest them because they didn't sag on Okafor.

That was the main issue to me other than ND playing really well. But it also just wasn't Dukes night. Those games happen.

In the first 24 minutes we didn't have the drive and kick out threes. We were missing our best dribble drive finisher in Justise. He just didn't come out fired up and focused as he had for about a month. I don't have any idea why he played that way for most of those 24 minutes. It wasn't an injury because he played great for the last 16 minutes. He and Jahlil carried us for the most part. It was just one of those games. GoDuke!

dyedwab
03-14-2015, 09:08 PM
Q's obviously having a fabulous year and I've never said otherwise.

At this point, I'm just gonna agree to disagree with most of you. It seems to me that this side are just as eager to trigger a 3 as his last handful of teams. And I'm not meaning these things as disparaging remarks. It works. Has for years and will likely continue to work. I just don't think my claim is as outlandish as it seems on here.

GAAAAHHH! Posts like this are so frustrating. Basically, someone just pulled out the data that indicated that Duke is about a middle of the pack 3pt shooting/jump shooting team. And that we aren't as likely to shoot a 3 this year as we were last year. And the response is a "seems to me" that that's not true. There's no "seems to me" here. We have objective data - we shoot fewer threes than last year, and are a middle of the pack NCAA team on that metric. It may be counter intuitive, but its true.

Again, we didn't lose last night because "we live by the 3 , and die by the 3". Among the causes of our loss was our below average percentage in shooting 3s, but more importantly, our sloppy play on both ends for 24 minutes, which included some inexplicable missed shots from 3

lotusland
03-14-2015, 09:44 PM
Not sure who that team was that played the first half in Duke uniforms but I hope we don't see them again this year

Marc81
03-14-2015, 10:38 PM
The wife and I would have been there last night but couldn't find any tickets that weren't crazy unreasonably priced. Don't know if it was because unc and Duke played the same night but tickets were really scarce outside the venue which drove up the price so we just decided to go home and watch the game because we live so close. We were both really disappointed! After the game though I thanked the good Lord I didn't spend hundreds of dollars to see that one.

I don't think I have seen anyone else mention it but this definitely wasn't one of Tyus best games either. He had quite a few turnovers and couldn't make many shots or even some of the layups he often makes.

It's very discouraging to see Duke lose but I believe this team will come together strong at the end.

At countdown to craziness this year we saw several Duke players getting out of their cars and heading in before the scrimmage. One of the players was nice enough to take pictures with us and it was none other that Quinn Cook. I told him it was going to be a big years for them and I still believe it! Go Duke!

CR9
03-14-2015, 11:23 PM
GAAAAHHH! Posts like this are so frustrating. Basically, someone just pulled out the data that indicated that Duke is about a middle of the pack 3pt shooting/jump shooting team. And that we aren't as likely to shoot a 3 this year as we were last year. And the response is a "seems to me" that that's not true. There's no "seems to me" here. We have objective data - we shoot fewer threes than last year, and are a middle of the pack NCAA team on that metric. It may be counter intuitive, but its true.

Again, we didn't lose last night because "we live by the 3 , and die by the 3". Among the causes of our loss was our below average percentage in shooting 3s, but more importantly, our sloppy play on both ends for 24 minutes, which included some inexplicable missed shots from 3

But my comparison wasn't just this year and last year. Duke is a 'middle of the pack' 3pt shooting team every year according to the same metric but every team bar this one is a 'jump shooting team'. 'Seems to me' that there is very little difference between 19/20/21/22/23 3's taken a game other than the team that takes 20 is the best side of the lot and therefore isn't considered a 'jump shooting team' for that reason.

Kedsy
03-15-2015, 12:57 AM
But my comparison wasn't just this year and last year. Duke is a 'middle of the pack' 3pt shooting team every year according to the same metric but every team bar this one is a 'jump shooting team'. 'Seems to me' that there is very little difference between 19/20/21/22/23 3's taken a game other than the team that takes 20 is the best side of the lot and therefore isn't considered a 'jump shooting team' for that reason.

Here's a different metric that perhaps illustrates what I think the others are saying: "3-point field goal point percentage," which measures what percentage of a team's overall points come from three-pointers (which presumably is a good measure of how much a team "lives" or "dies" by the three).

This season, Duke gets 28.2% of its points from three-pointers, which ranks 176th in the nation. Last season, Duke got 34.5% of its points from three-pointers, which ranked 22nd in the nation. That's a huge difference.

Looking at this metric over the past 15 seasons (plus this season):



Year 3pFGpt% rank
---- -------- ----
2015 28.2 176
2014 34.5 22
2013 29.2 115
2012 31.3 86
2011 29.2 112
2010 29.3 106
2009 27.9 150
2008 32.7 74
2007 25.6 229
2006 28.1 150
2005 33.7 38
2004 26.7 166
2003 27.3 151
2002 29.0 96
2001 34.5 12
2000 28.5 103


As you can see, this year's national rank is the 2nd lowest rank in the past 16 seasons (including this one). It's not the same as every other year. (For that matter, nor is every Duke team the same -- clearly some of our teams have relied more heavily on the three than others.) It's certainly nowhere close to the same as last year.

KandG
03-15-2015, 01:02 AM
I don't think I have seen anyone else mention it but this definitely wasn't one of Tyus best games either. He had quite a few turnovers and couldn't make many shots or even some of the layups he often makes.



There's definitely been some statistical slippage in Tyus' game over the last 7 or so games, which has been masked by the winning streak and the two exceptional games vs UNC. Taking into account small sample sizes and all that, some numbers of note:

First 26 games, Tyus was a 40% 3 point shooter, averaged 4.5 FTs per game. Last 7 games, he's a 32% 3 point shooter and his FTs are down to less than 3 per game. If you take away the last UNC game, he's only had 7 FTs in 6 games and is shooting under 30% from 3.

Also, his turnover average has nearly doubled over the last 9 games, going from 1.6 to 3.1 per game.

Tyus' issues are, in the big picture, relatively manageable and attributable to being a freshman, and the coaching staff will help him tighten up his play in preparation for the tournament. Also, it's hard to complain much when the 7 to 9 games in question had only one loss, several Duke blowouts, and 2 exceptional games vs a big rival.

Pretty clear though that when Duke has been at their best vs elite competition, all the guards have played and shot well, especially Tyus, so it would be good to see him get to that level in every game we play the rest of the season, however many more games that is.

Neals384
03-15-2015, 01:33 AM
OK, before you all jump on me, this is "tongue-in-cheek".

This year Coach 1K proved an old dog can learn new tricks by using zone frequently, some say with encouragement or mentoring by JB. Now, perhaps he is stealing an idea from Ol' Roy, who let his team tank in the ACCT in 2005 and 2009 so they'd be fully rested for a title run.;)

CharlestonDave
03-15-2015, 03:31 AM
There's definitely been some statistical slippage in Tyus' game over the last 7 or so games, which has been masked by the winning streak and the two exceptional games vs UNC. Taking into account small sample sizes and all that, some numbers of note:

First 26 games, Tyus was a 40% 3 point shooter, averaged 4.5 FTs per game. Last 7 games, he's a 32% 3 point shooter and his FTs are down to less than 3 per game. If you take away the last UNC game, he's only had 7 FTs in 6 games and is shooting under 30% from 3.

Also, his turnover average has nearly doubled over the last 9 games, going from 1.6 to 3.1 per game.

Tyus' issues are, in the big picture, relatively manageable and attributable to being a freshman, and the coaching staff will help him tighten up his play in preparation for the tournament. Also, it's hard to complain much when the 7 to 9 games in question had only one loss, several Duke blowouts, and 2 exceptional games vs a big rival.

Pretty clear though that when Duke has been at their best vs elite competition, all the guards have played and shot well, especially Tyus, so it would be good to see him get to that level in every game we play the rest of the season, however many more games that is.

By March Tyus is no longer a freshman, so that is not an excuse anymore.

CDu
03-15-2015, 09:46 AM
To say we are a "live by the 3, die by the 3" team after a game in which our post player had more FG attempts than the entire team's total of 3pt attempts is silly.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-15-2015, 11:15 AM
Comes with the territory of being a jump shooting team.

I was pretty pissed with the lethargy and actually stopped watching because I wasn't overly bothered about losing early (I was mad, however, that I called and yelled at Dish to get my TV working in time for the game only to see that) but the way they lost irks me greatly. They looked like they didn't want to be there, especially Justise and Tyus, I thought. Q was incredibly poor as he usually is in the ACCT*, which is the most disappointing part. Would've liked to see them win it cause it's been a while but hopefully this is used to motivate the squad. But somehow I doubt it.

*Q's ACCT #'s (Not count Frosh year or Clemson last season [12 mins]):

MPG: 30
PPG: 10 - 17 of 40/42% - 8 of 20/40% from 3
APG: 2.6
RPG: 3.2

And the PPG number is carried by the 2 games against NCSU (29 points in 2 games). In the games Duke has lost:

MPG: 34
PPG: 7 - 8 of 28/28% - 3 of 14/21% from 3
APG: 3.3
RPG: 3.6

Just not good enough, for me.

Look at Jahlil's FT shooting:
1/3 v BC: 14/17
1/11 v NCSU: 7/11

That's 75%! How can we disparage his FTs?

KandG
03-15-2015, 01:05 PM
Very glad Featherston in his latest column called out that obnoxious "Blue Devil Fan's Dilemma" thread asking who we'd rather face in the ACC Tournament Finals. Presumably after being humbled this weekend, that sense of entitlement is no longer with the team or the fans once the tournament starts.

freshmanjs
03-15-2015, 01:19 PM
Very glad Featherston in his latest column called out that obnoxious "Blue Devil Fan's Dilemma" thread asking who we'd rather face in the ACC Tournament Finals. Presumably after being humbled this weekend, that sense of entitlement is no longer with the team or the fans once the tournament starts.

wait, so no discussion of who we would or wouldn't want to face in our region after the first round is allowed tonight? sorry, but that's absurd.

KandG
03-15-2015, 02:18 PM
wait, so no discussion of who we would or wouldn't want to face in our region after the first round is allowed tonight? sorry, but that's absurd.

Never said anything about not being able to speculate on opponents. Trust me, I understand, plus the old "do you ever root for UNC or not" theme is always fun to dredge up as it was in that situation.

But the tone of that particular thread felt very much like the attitude of the team on Friday night -- assuming a Duke win -- and Featherston highlighted the hubris well.