MBB: Duke 84, UNC 77 Post Game Thread

[pfrduke]

Bring out the broom.

[duketaylor]

Gthc, gth!!!

[FerryFor50]

Nothing could be finer.... than to smack those Holes from Carolina.

Rough, physical game. Didn't pay off for UNC.

Winslow needs to learn to play nice. He lets his frustration show through some cheap fouls. I still hate how they called it a flagrant, but I guess by letter of law...

Tyus Jones, though. Wow.

[bbosbbos]

9f9f9f

[Duke95]

Such a great win. Team fought through adversity and won in the toughest place for us to play.

[dukebluelemur]

Tyus ******* Jones.

I can't remember a potential one year player I've gotten this attached to.

[pfrduke]

The guards, man. Quinn and Tyus were excellent all game, and made the difference.

[arnie]

Gthc, gth!!!

We were 4-3 in ACC and heading to UVA. Now 15-3. Unbelievable.

[pfrduke]

We were 4-3 in ACC and heading to UVA. Now 15-3. Unbelievable.

Only Kentucky and Villanova have longer winning streaks.

[gurufrisbee]

YES!!

[Troublemaker]

This game was played at a much higher level than the first one.

Very proud of this team to respond and win again.

Sweep!

[CDu]

Only Kentucky and Villanova have longer winning streaks.

And neither has faced nearly the competition we have over that stretch.

[Merlindevildog91]

Woo to the hoo. 9F.

Hard to believe a team with as short a bench as we have can play the press and run a little.

[Utley]

Tyus Stones - wow. Hope we don't need a Tyus tailbone vigil.

I think we won this one when we took the lead with the three fresh on the bench. Also a nice job by a Duke responding to the two times Caroline tried to run away in the first ten minutes of the second half.

[dukelifer]

We were 4-3 in ACC and heading to UVA. Now 15-3. Unbelievable.

This team has gotten better and better. They have learned how to win. Jones and Cook are so good. Duke won this without everything working. Great adjustments by K to put in the press. An impressive run of wins for the good guys

[Troublemaker]

Tyus Stones - wow. Hope we don't need a Tyus tailbone vigil.

I think we won this one when we took the lead with the three fresh on the bench. Also a nice job by a Duke responding to the two times Caroline tried to run away in the first ten minutes of the second half.

Duke '16 > UNC '15. (Well, not quite. Quinn was on the floor).

[gumbomoop]

I'd think this sews up a 1-seed in NCAAT. I doubt even a loss on Thursday would drop us to a 2, with our impressive road wins.

[Dukehky]

I'd think this sews up a 1-seed in NCAAT. I doubt even a loss on Thursday would drop us to a 2, with our impressive road wins.

Let's not test it.

Tyus Jones is a baaaaaaaaadddddddd motha ************************************************** ********************

[grossbus]

Tyus is a carolina killer the way Seth was.

[Indoor66]

Order Has Been Maintained!

[tfk53]

Bilas giving praise to Amile for his work on full court press, slowing the heels down and forcing them into half court offense.
Tremendous hustle on his part - including when he got back to get a foul on the floor prior to a layup.
This team does not give up.

[FerryFor50]

Also, some interesting Bizzaro stats.

- UNC shoots 100% from the FT line and 50% from 3
- Duke shot 80% from the line (!)
- Duke out-rebounded UNC 31-30 (and 12-9 on the offensive glass)

4852

[duketaylor]

Just an amazing win and a very impressive regular season road schedule for victories. Now it's time to win in the post-season. I love our chances. Next!!

[Les Grossman]

I'm walking on air all week.
what a great team this is!!

[MartyClark]

Only Kentucky and Villanova have longer winning streaks.

Tyus Jones is remarkably composed. What a great player!

Okafor looked a bit sleepy in the first half.

A great win, 10 out of the last 13. We can take a few days off before stewing about the ACC tournamlent.

[Dukehky]

Biggest stretch of the game was when we were down 7 after the Winslow flagrant, then he rattles off 5 straight (shoulda been 6, he got fouled).

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Soft play continues to plague the Heels. They don't play strong through contact, they play timid when the game gets tight, they reach and foul to avoid contact instead of bodying up, and they make mental mistakes in key moments. Been that way in big games all season.

UNC is not making basketball plays, they are making the same mistakes, over and over. It's got to be driving Roy nuts.

Duke did just the opposite, they were strong on the ball all game, stayed in the attack mode and played with confidence...and deserved the win.

On to the tournies....

[pfrduke]

Tyus Jones is remarkably composed. What a great player!

Okafor looked a bit sleepy in the first half.

A great win, 10 out of the last 13. We can take a few days off before stewing about the ACC tournamlent.

And 14 out of the last 15 games this season. Best close to the regular season in a long time.

[FerryFor50]

Biggest stretch of the game was when we were down 7 after the Winslow flagrant, then he rattles off 5 straight (shoulda been 6, he got fouled).

Yea, he responded really well after making some boneheaded plays. Too bad he had 3 fouls at that point. Then he picked up 4 and 5 on some ticky tack stuff.

Meanwhile, Tyus Jones is still picking out Dean Dome wood splinters from his rear end and getting Brice Johnson's body imprint removed from his front side.

[SCMatt33]

Well that was more impressive to me than the first game. Holding Carolina under 80 when the shot not only 3's, but midrange 2's ridiculously well is a remarkable achievement. You can say what you will about the defense, but they can step it up when it really counts.

That was also one of the better coached games I've seen this year. Coach K did a great job with his time outs, by using them in conjunction with the under 12 and under 8 media time outs to effectively create double timeouts and really give the guys legit rest between game segments. By the time the under 4 came around it was Carolina having to use them anyway so it wasn't needed.

[El_Diablo]

Setting up nicely for UNC to be the 7-seed for 2-seed Kansas.

[CDu]

We played an awful first half, but man did the cream rise to the top in the second half. 53 points!

This was a heart win. Winslow was off and in foul trouble all game. Okafor was struggling. Tyus Jones played much of the second half with a bruised butt. Didn't matter. When we needed guys to step up, they did.

Amile Jefferson and Matt Jones teamed up with a big offensive rebound and a 3.

Okafor finally stepped up with some really impressive finishes.

Cook bombed away from 3.

And Tyus Jones... WOW!!! What a performance by him. There just aren't enough superlatives to do him justice. He was otherwordly. Just in total control at all times. He put the team on his back down the stretch and just wouldn't let us lose.

I am just absolutely loving the backcourt of Cook and Jones. They are such a fabulous tandem.

I am too happy to write coherently anymore. GO DUKE!!!

[weezie]

Biggest stretch of the game was when we were down 7 after the Winslow flagrant, then he rattles off 5 straight (shoulda been 6, he got fouled).

Also the trap and clock was huge. Really rocked roys guys.

Tale of two halves....

[Dukehky]

We played an awful first half, but man did the cream rise to the top in the second half. 53 points!

This was a heart win. Winslow was off and in foul trouble all game. Okafor was struggling. Tyus Jones played much of the second half with a bruised butt. Didn't matter. When we needed guys to step up, they did.

Amile Jefferson and Matt Jones teamed up with a big offensive rebound and a 3.

Okafor finally stepped up with some really impressive finishes.

Cook bombed away from 3.

And Tyus Jones... WOW!!! What a performance by him. There just aren't enough superlatives to do him justice. He was otherwordly. Just in total control at all times. He put the team on his back down the stretch and just wouldn't let us lose.

I am just absolutely loving the backcourt of Cook and Jones. They are such a fabulous tandem.

I am too happy to write coherently anymore. GO DUKE!!!

I disagree that Winslow was off, he carried the team until he got his 4th with some knuckle headed moves (second one debatable), but he definitely kicked Johnson on the drive. It was sweet, but he did it on purpose, I thought. Just like G hit Hansblow on purpose.

[FerryFor50]

Well that was more impressive to me than the first game. Holding Carolina under 80 when the shot not only 3's, but midrange 2's ridiculously well is a remarkable achievement. You can say what you will about the defense, but they can step it up when it really counts.

That was also one of the better coached games I've seen this year. Coach K did a great job with his time outs, by using them in conjunction with the under 12 and under 8 media time outs to effectively create double timeouts and really give the guys legit rest between game segments. By the time the under 4 came around it was Carolina having to use them anyway so it wasn't needed.

It felt like Roy started calling timeouts because he saw K doing it. No real rhyme or reason. Monkey see...

[Philsfan]

How sweep it is!!

[kmspeaks]

Tyus Stones - wow. Hope we don't need a Tyus tailbone vigil.

I think we won this one when we took the lead with the three fresh on the bench. Also a nice job by a Duke responding to the two times Caroline tried to run away in the first ten minutes of the second half.

The ESPN guys said it was back spasms. I'm not a doctor but I wonder if that's better than a bruised tailbone. I've experienced both and the tailbone hurt longer, plus it hurt whenever I moved at all. The back spasms happened playing softball and were fine after a day of rest, Tyus will have 4 before he has to play again. It was the weirdest thing, I could swing a bat with no problem but bending at the waist or raising my arms above my head was agony. I wish I had whatever they put on his back because he didn't look to be affected once he got loosened up after going back in.

[AtlBluRew]

Tyus ******* Jones.

I can't remember a potential one year player I've gotten this attached to.

Same here!!! I love his game!

[bob blue devil]

we took something pretty close to carolina's best shot there. very impressive win for the good guys.
unc will be tough next year.

[uh_no]

we took something pretty close to carolina's best shot there. very impressive win for the good guys.
unc will be tough next year.

we better get used to best shots.....we get best shots for the next 9 games.

[hudlow]

Winslow-san....

[Dukerati]

I'd like to say Tyus carried the team on his back but given the circumstances, I'll choose to commend him for shouldering the load instead:)

Outside of the obvious, I'd like to note that Grayson did not look out of place out there -- he has turned into a bonafide rotation player that I'm excited to see in March.

[SoCalDukeFan]

Tyus ******* Jones.

I can't remember a potential one year player I've gotten this attached to.

He is one special player and one that I have come to really appreciate.

SoCal

[uh_no]

i thought we would lose this game....and for some moments there I thought i would be affirmed....but we cranked it down on D and the boards, and started taking some smarter shots.

this was a good team vs a really good team. this team has learned to play D over the past month or 2. the sky's the limit.

lets go.

[dukelifer]

I'd like to say Tyus carried the team on his back but given the circumstances, I'll choose to commend him for shouldering the load instead:)

Outside of the obvious, I'd like to note that Grayson did not look out of place out there -- he has turned into a bonafide rotation player that I'm excited to see in March.
Yes- Allen no longer is a deer in the headlights. He now believes he belongs. That breakout game against Wake was huge.

[pamtar]

The ESPN guys said it was back spasms. I'm not a doctor but I wonder if that's better than a bruised tailbone. I've experienced both and the tailbone hurt longer, plus it hurt whenever I moved at all. The back spasms happened playing softball and were fine after a day of rest, Tyus will have 4 before he has to play again. It was the weirdest thing, I could swing a bat with no problem but bending at the waist or raising my arms above my head was agony. I wish I had whatever they put on his back because he didn't look to be affected once he got loosened up after going back in.

A severely bruised tailbone (in my case at least) can take years to heal. Let's hope it's just back spasms.

[4Gen]

Did anyone else notice? Attached to the plaque honoring Coach K as the GOAT was a coupon for an UNC bachelor's degree.

[DukieInKansas]

Did anyone else notice? Attached to the plaque honoring Coach K as the GOAT was a coupon for an UNC bachelor's degree.

I thought it was a coupon good for using some of Roy's TOs.

[g-money]

Some of the posters during the in-game were saying that Winslow needs to watch the dirty plays or else he might acquire a bad reputation with the refs. I started to agree to an extent, but... then I saw the ad for "I hate Christian Laettner" during one of the timeouts and thought, forget it, I'll take him just the way he is. It's great having such a cutthroat competitor on our side.

Re: the flagrant call on Winslow - within the context of all the contact going on in the game, I thought it was absurd that they even stopped the game to review that play, much less call a flagrant foul. That kind of chippie/dirty play probably happens 15-20 times a game in a physical game like this.

[FerryFor50]

Some of the posters during the in-game were saying that Winslow needs to watch the dirty plays or else he might acquire a bad reputation with the refs. I started to agree to an extent, but... then I saw the ad for "I hate Christian Laettner" during one of the timeouts and thought, forget it, I'll take him just the way he is. It's great having such a cutthroat competitor on our side.

Re: the flagrant call on Winslow - within the context of all the contact going on in the game, I thought it was absurd that they even stopped the game to review that play, much less call a flagrant foul. That kind of chippie/dirty play probably happens 15-20 times a game in a physical game like this.

I hate that they reviewed it after not calling a foul on the rebound. You miss a foul call and then you call a flagrant on the guy that got fouled?

[CameronBlue]

Re: the flagrant call on Winslow - within the context of all the contact going on in the game, I thought it was absurd that they even stopped the game to review that play, much less call a flagrant foul. That kind of chippie/dirty play probably happens 15-20 times a game in a physical game like this.

Winslow has no one to blame but himself. I think the ref would have given him the benefit of the doubt without the earlier leg kick. I love the badass attitude but the goal is to actually win the game. Stupid basketball play.

[OldSchool]

Bilas giving praise to Amile for his work on full court press, slowing the heels down and forcing them into half court offense....

I was very impressed at how successful we were doing that. Carolina teams are trained to run and push the ball. Trying to trap them in the backcourt and not give up a layup at the rim is difficult, and it takes all five guys for Duke dialed in to pull it off. Credit to the coaches for scouting this UNC team and realizing we could pull that off. (I thought the coaches' game plan against UVA also was gutsy, to immediately push the ball to the rim.)

This Duke team seems much better defensively than just six weeks ago.

[gofurman]

Soft play continues to plague the Heels. They don't play strong through contact, they play timid when the game gets tight, they reach and foul to avoid contact instead of bodying up, and they make mental mistakes in key moments. Been that way in big games all season.

UNC is not making basketball plays, they are making the same mistakes, over and over. It's got to be driving Roy nuts.

Duke did just the opposite, they were strong on the ball all game, stayed in the attack mode and played with confidence...and deserved the win.

On to the tournies....

Good post wheat. I mean that. If you guys play uk sometime This yr i will pull for UNC !

[uh_no]

I hate that they reviewed it after not calling a foul on the rebound. You miss a foul call and then you call a flagrant on the guy that got fouled?

they cna't review regular fouls...only flagrant....

it's annoying...but once they blew the whistle to take a look, they could only say no foul or flagrant. Personally I think the call there was in part in retribution for the kick in the first half.

Either way, he needs to be more careful on the court. we can't oft afford to have him off the court like that.

[burnspbesq]

Let's not test it.

Tyus Jones is a baaaaaaaaadddddddd motha ************************************************** ********************

Shut yo mouth!

[Hingeknocker]

Some of the posters during the in-game were saying that Winslow needs to watch the dirty plays or else he might acquire a bad reputation with the refs. I started to agree to an extent, but... then I saw the ad for "I hate Christian Laettner" during one of the timeouts and thought, forget it, I'll take him just the way he is. It's great having such a cutthroat competitor on our side.

Re: the flagrant call on Winslow - within the context of all the contact going on in the game, I thought it was absurd that they even stopped the game to review that play, much less call a flagrant foul. That kind of chippie/dirty play probably happens 15-20 times a game in a physical game like this.

This is it, for me. In a game like that the ref is setting a dangerous precedent to say that's deserving of a flagrant foul. You have to call every single thing after that the same way, in my opinion. I have no earthly idea why the ref didn't just call that a normal foul, Carolina gets the ball, and we move on.

And I agree with you 100% about Winslow's toughness and demeanor. Love the fire and passion he brings to the team. My wife made a comment that he's turning into a dirty player, and I couldn't disagree more. Winslow's got that Laettner (or Daniel Ewing, from my time) intensity about him, and I love it.

[FerryFor50]

they cna't review regular fouls...only flagrant....

it's annoying...but once they blew the whistle to take a look, they could only say no foul or flagrant. Personally I think the call there was in part in retribution for the kick in the first half.

Either way, he needs to be more careful on the court. we can't oft afford to have him off the court like that.

Yea I know you can't review regular fouls. But I thought the trip was no worse than a regular foul. And when you're reviewing, maybe take into consideration that you missed the foul call that led to the trip?

Probably was a make up from the kick.

[Billy Dat]

This team has gotten better and better. They have learned how to win. Jones and Cook are so good. Duke won this without everything working. Great adjustments by K to put in the press. An impressive run of wins for the good guys

All this.




Amile Jefferson and Matt Jones teamed up with a big offensive rebound and a 3.
I am just absolutely loving the backcourt of Cook and Jones. They are such a fabulous tandem.


The Jefferson board, Jones fake, step back 3 to take our first lead since early was the sequence of the game.



Outside of the obvious, I'd like to note that Grayson did not look out of place out there -- he has turned into a bonafide rotation player that I'm excited to see in March.

This was a happy accident that I am glad was forced by circumstances. K was showing big sigs of "I'm riding the starters minus MJones plus Amile until they drop, but then Winslow picked up his 4th and K was forced to go Grayson and he was able to get big minutes in a big game, he looked like he belonged, and he nailed a ton of free throws in the last few minutes. We need to keep the pump primed with minutes - he should get plenty if we do what we're supposed to do in Greensboro.


Some of the posters during the in-game were saying that Winslow needs to watch the dirty plays or else he might acquire a bad reputation with the refs.

Anyone worries that a video review of his first half kick might generate some kind of punishment? What are the D1 rules, can something like that happen? It could in the NBA.

I won't think about that today, I think about that tomorrow.

Another huge road scalp, 11 in a row, amazing regular season full of epic wins, comebacks, prime time performances, pro talent, Sulaimon drama of all kinds, Semi transfer....28-3.

This has been a special year, it's March - Let's Go - 9FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF!

[FerryFor50]

This is it, for me. In a game like that the ref is setting a dangerous precedent to say that's deserving of a flagrant foul. You have to call every single thing after that the same way, in my opinion. I have no earthly idea why the ref didn't just call that a normal foul, Carolina gets the ball, and we move on.

And I agree with you 100% about Winslow's toughness and demeanor. Love the fire and passion he brings to the team. My wife made a comment that he's turning into a dirty player, and I couldn't disagree more. Winslow's got that Laettner (or Daniel Ewing, from my time) intensity about him, and I love it.

They have also called Winslow for a flagrant for holding Justin Anderson's leg.

I just think they need to allow refs to call those types of things regular fouls after review. 2 shots and the ball is a bit much for something so light.

[uh_no]

Yea I know you can't review regular fouls. But I thought the trip was no worse than a regular foul. And when you're reviewing, maybe take into consideration that you missed the foul call that led to the trip?

Probably was a make up from the kick.

i think it was more after the kick in the first half, justice lost the benefit of the doubt, and while the call was borderline, the refs decided they needed to send him a message that he needed to cut the chipiness out.

[gofurman]

Love it. Only concerns
- Okafor seems tentative Since hurt ankle vs UNC. Since then, he sat v Clemson. Torched a small VT team for 30. Did well vs Syracuse. But did nothing v wake? 6 pt 4 rb. Little tonight until later in game - though UNC is v big and that was similar to first UNC game. I guess I just thought that without a hurt ankle he wouldn't be held to 14 and 4. 14 is ok but 4 reb for Okafor? Two straight games of 4 Rebs (wake and UNC). Thoughts?

- please be ok Tyus. Pleeeez

Any knowledge on Tyus appreciated

[FerryFor50]

i think it was more after the kick in the first half, justice lost the benefit of the doubt, and while the call was borderline, the refs decided they needed to send him a message that he needed to cut the chipiness out.

Maybe. But I think it's more that they have no choice in that situation. If they go to a review and see a foul like that, it's black and white. You call it or you don't. I think giving officials a way to call it a regular foul is a nice compromise that everyone could live with, rather than getting two shots and the ball. Same with the Okafor flagrant last game - no intent on the elbow, and Thomas initiated contact.

Too many flagrants on light contact.

[FerryFor50]

Love it. Only concerns
- Okafor seems tentative Since hurt ankle v UNC he sat v Clemson. Torched a small VT. Did well vs Syracuse. But did nothing v wake? 6 pt 4 rb. Little tonight until later in game - though UNC is v big and that was similar to first UNC game. I guess I just thought that without a hurt ankle he wouldn't be held to 14 and 4. 14 is ok but 4 reb for Okafor? Two straight games of 4 Rebs? Thoughts?


In the Wake and UNC game, he just got constantly doubled. He's not quick enough with his decisions on the double. He needs to pass out of it quicker or be more decisive with his offensive move.

And UNC is BIG. They have several large, long bodies to throw at him.

[ChrisP]

Great win and amazing toughness when things could have gotten bleak after Winslow's 3rd and Tyus' injury. What else can one add about Tyus Jones? Incredible performances all year long and two great ones against UNC. 12-12 from the FT line too - whew!!!

I'm not a Roy fan at all, but the presentation to K at the beginning of the game was a very, very classy move. It seemed that the crowd was at least decent about it too. In any case, I'm really, really glad we beat the cheats at their place.

[CinANC]

Winslow has no one to blame but himself. I think the ref would have given him the benefit of the doubt without the earlier leg kick. I love the badass attitude but the goal is to actually win the game. Stupid basketball play.

Winslow’s “kick shot” was right after Meeks got away with hitting the ball out of play after Carolina’s made shot, effectively preventing any fast break after the shot… which was set up to happen. Winslow complained to the ref and was ignored, then wound up with the ball on the offensive end where he effectively said (with his foot) “if you want to play dirty we will play dirty too!”.

I note the ref ignored that kick as well as Meeks play. Make up no-call. It was Bilas and Shulman (more likely the guys w/the replay buttons in the truck) who made the deal about it with no reference to the prior play.

It was the later foot hook that Winslow was called on. By then the ref’s were having none of it. I said to my wife when they took so long to confer with Roy and K, that the ref’s were telling the coaches to tell the players to knock it off with the cheap um, stuff. When Roy reacted like “who us?” even though he was granted a flagrant 1, it pretty much confirmed that in my mind.

But I agree the pass the ref gave him on the foot kick set Winslow up for the gotcha with the foot hook later. Winslow got sucked in by his emotions tonight.

[OldPhiKap]

Shut yo mouth!

He's talking 'bout Tyus!

[-bdbd]

This is it, for me. In a game like that the ref is setting a dangerous precedent to say that's deserving of a flagrant foul. You have to call every single thing after that the same way, in my opinion. I have no earthly idea why the ref didn't just call that a normal foul, Carolina gets the ball, and we move on.

And I agree with you 100% about Winslow's toughness and demeanor. Love the fire and passion he brings to the team. My wife made a comment that he's turning into a dirty player, and I couldn't disagree more. Winslow's got that Laettner (or Daniel Ewing, from my time) intensity about him, and I love it.

Same feeling here. He seems to have that Laettner "edge" to him - a competitive nastiness that says "I am better than you. Just TRY to stop me!" And he fights back when things get chippy. I agree that, once they reviewed the play, it seemed that they couldn't rule just a foul, by the rules it was all or nothing - flagrant or no-foul. The middle ground would have been fairer, but... This team needs that grit. I'll take the package he brings though. He just needs to manage it a little better. In both the UVA game and this one they happened immediately after he was knocked to the floor with no foul call (and vs UVA he even was pushed down once on the floor). But you can't show a temper! Control it, and then channel it. (K is great with this stuff. I have no doubt the coaches will be talking to him about channeling that energy/anger to positive ends.

[Wahoo2000]

Winslow’s “kick shot” was right after Meeks got away with hitting the ball out of play after Carolina’s made shot, effectively preventing any fast break after the shot… which was set up to happen. Winslow complained to the ref and was ignored, then wound up with the ball on the offensive end where he effectively said (with his foot) “if you want to play dirty we will play dirty too!”.

I note the ref ignored that kick as well as Meeks play. Make up no-call. It was Bilas and Shulman (more likely the guys w/the replay buttons in the truck) who made the deal about it with no reference to the prior play.

It was the later foot hook that Winslow was called on. By then the ref’s were having none of it. I said to my wife when they took so long to confer with Roy and K, that the ref’s were telling the coaches to tell the players to knock it off with the cheap um, stuff. When Roy reacted like “who us?” even though he was granted a flagrant 1, it pretty much confirmed that in my mind.

But I agree the pass the ref gave him on the foot kick set Winslow up for the gotcha with the foot hook later. Winslow got sucked in by his emotions tonight.

Actually, they DID call Winslow for an offensive foul there, just not a flagrant. The kick was much more deserving of a flagrant than the trip, though. I'd call it even that one got called a regular foul, and one a flagrant.

[uh_no]

Same feeling here. He seems to have that Laettner "edge" to him - a competitive nastiness that says "I am better than you. Just TRY to stop me!"

I'll be honest, I hate that attitude.

play clean. play with sportsmanship, or you don't have my respect.

I understand emotions get out of hand sometimes at game time, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't strive to be better, or celebrate kicking someone during a layup, or stepping on them during a dead-ball.

I'd rather lose a game being a good person than win a game being an a-hole to the opponent. Maybe you or all don't share that sentiment, and to some degree I accept that. But I refuse to celebrate the stunts that Justice pulled. I hope and expect that he'll end up with a talking to from K. Not only does he portray himself in a less than stellar light, but he hurts the team by giving up free throws as well as taking himself off the court.

[Neals384]

Bilas made a big point early about Roy wanting to use depth to win the game. That didn't work - they went 12 deep, 10 if you don't count the seniors. 9th and 10th in minutes played were Pinson and Berry, who combined for 0 pts on 0 for 5 shooting, 1 assist, 5 fouls and two turnovers in 14 minutes. But give Roy credit for starting his seniors - a classy move which may have cost him the game - they were down 6 before the first sub.

[Duvall]

I'll be honest, I hate that attitude.

play clean. play with sportsmanship, or you don't have my respect.

I understand emotions get out of hand sometimes at game time, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't strive to be better, or celebrate kicking someone during a layup, or stepping on them during a dead-ball.

I'd rather lose a game being a good person than win a game being an a-hole to the opponent.

So how did you root for Jim Calhoun and Geno Auriemma's programs for all those years?

[Neals384]

Tyus led the team in points (24), rebounds (6, tied with Amile), assists (7) and steals (3)!

[Coballs]

Ahhhh, what a beautiful sight!

4853

[uh_no]

Bilas made a big point early about Roy wanting to use depth to win the game. That didn't work - they went 12 deep, 10 if you don't count the seniors. 9th and 10th in minutes played were Pinson and Berry, who combined for 0 pts on 0 for 5 shooting, 1 assist, 5 fouls and two turnovers in 14 minutes. But give Roy credit for starting his seniors - a classy move which may have cost him the game - they were down 6 before the first sub.

I'm always struggling with this. On the one hand, it shows some character to do this for the seniors, regardless of the opponent (duke every other year), but on the other hand, you're clearly affecting your teams ability to compete. Good on him for sticking to his guns there. Roy gets a lot of crap for off the court stuff, and the possible unawareness and media quotes reflect poorly. I honestly think he is a good person, though, but perhaps unaware.

[Hingeknocker]

Same feeling here. He seems to have that Laettner "edge" to him - a competitive nastiness that says "I am better than you. Just TRY to stop me!" And he fights back when things get chippy. I agree that, once they reviewed the play, it seemed that they couldn't rule just a foul, by the rules it was all or nothing - flagrant or no-foul. The middle ground would have been fairer, but... This team needs that grit. I'll take the package he brings though. He just needs to manage it a little better. In both the UVA game and this one they happened immediately after he was knocked to the floor with no foul call (and vs UVA he even was pushed down once on the floor). But you can't show a temper! Control it, and then channel it. (K is great with this stuff. I have no doubt the coaches will be talking to him about channeling that energy/anger to positive ends.

Winslow is proving to be a very difficult player for college refs to officiate. His take-no-prisoners attitude puts him at an intensity level much higher than most of his opponents, which 95% of the time is a gigantic advantage for him as a player. His problem is that he doesn't channel it when he gets called for a foul, or when a foul isn't called on his defender, just as you pointed out. Fortunately we have K and a couple of assistant coaches who know a thing or two about channeling that passion. I don't think it will take much to redirect Winslow into taking over the game even more when he gets close to that edge. That 5-0 spurt he had right after the flagrant call was so fun to watch.

[jipops]

Other than Tyus' other worldly performance, Duke picking up near full court with Amile up top really seemed to throw the heels. This ended up being a good move by K. But the ultimate credit doesn't go to a coach. It goes to the guys that made the big plays. After being ice cold as a team, that step back 3 from Matt Jones was just huge. And Justise sort of made up for his boneheaded play by getting in a quick 5 on back-to-back possessions.

Brice Johnson is a serious talent for the heels. He doesn't do well with the physicality of the game but he has terrific skill and athleticism out there. With Justise out at the end I was certain he was going to kill us.

I'm so happy for Quinn who has grown so much as a player. He was so widely criticized on this board the last couple years but all of that has been silenced. He has set the tone for this team all season and he never, ever gets tired.

Big props to the unc crowd for stomaching the salute to K. That could not have been easy for them.

[OZ]

I'll be honest, I hate that attitude.

play clean. play with sportsmanship, or you don't have my respect.

I understand emotions get out of hand sometimes at game time, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't strive to be better, or celebrate kicking someone during a layup, or stepping on them during a dead-ball.

I'd rather lose a game being a good person than win a game being an a-hole to the opponent. Maybe you or all don't share that sentiment, and to some degree I accept that. But I refuse to celebrate the stunts that Justice pulled. I hope and expect that he'll end up with a talking to from K. Not only does he portray himself in a less than stellar light, but he hurts the team by giving up free throws as well as taking himself off the court.

I don't think Winslow approached being an "a-hole." He is intense and plays full throttle EVERY play. I love the guy and the way he plays. His motor never stops. If I am in a battle, I want this guy on my side.

[msdukie]

Today was one of the 107 greatest days in human history.

[dukelion]

Massive massive win......on a few levels.

Carolina played about as well as they could....50% from 3 and perfect from the free throw line. Plus the Justise flagrant and some really long 2 point jumpers (e.g. Hicks) and we still pulled this thing out on the road with a decent margin.

We just about wrapped up a #1 seed and the narrative for the Rivalry has now moved squarely into the region of Duke dominance.

This team is damn good. Obviously anything can happen in the Tourney but I love this group.

[gumbomoop]

.... celebrate kicking someone during a layup, or stepping on them during a dead-ball.

I'd rather lose a game being a good person than win a game being an a-hole to the opponent.

My impression is that Justise is a good person, even popular with opponents. He's usually a steady, low-key, no-drama guy. Even tonight, his actions were not those of an a-hole.

For example, I don't remember that he celebrated after the kick. Did I miss that? Nor did he step on Jackson. He was called for a foul on the kick, his basket was waved off, so he made a dumb play, an over-aggressive play, but not an a-hole play. The flagrant call was a trip, not a step-on. My guess is that the refs remembered the earlier kick and implicitly factors that into their decision to call the trip a flagrant 1.

If you're commenting on Laettner as well as Justise, fair enough, but it helps to attach specific incidents to specific players.

[Olympic Fan]

Just one observation -- based on Virginia's loss Saturday and Duke's win, I think it's very likely that when the polls come out Monday, Duke will be the No. 2 team in the rankings, behind only Kentucky.

Just guessing, but I think the top 5 will be:

1. Kentucky
2. Duke
3. Villanova
4. Virginia
5. Wisconsin

[Billy Dat]

A few additional late night game thoughts:

-We've been getting a lot of wins in the Dean Dome and each one is sweet

-Roy's clock management in the final 2 mins was terrible. Down 8 with two to go, they should have started fouling, much as we did a few weeks back. They let us burn a minute of clock very easily.

-Our D was pretty good tonight. Amile played a big role in that.

-The difference in ability between our front court and back court in shooting free throws could not be more stark. 85% vs 55% or thereabouts.

[Olympic Fan]

A few additional late night game thoughts:

-We've been getting a lot of wins in the Dean Dome and each one is sweet
-Roy's clock management in the final 2 mins was terrible. Down 8 with two to go, they should have started fouling, much as we did a few weeks back. They let us burn a minute of clock very easily.

-Our D was pretty good tonight. Amile played a big role in that.

-The difference in ability between our front court and back court in shooting free throws could not be more stark. 85% vs 55% or thereabouts.

Duke is now 11-6 in the Dean Dome since 1999 ...

[NYBri]

QUINN JONES!!!!!

I love this team.

[dmac2681]

All this player of the year talk about Okafor. I'm not completely sure he's the MVP of this team! Don't get me wrong. I really like him but Quinn and Tyus very well may be the Co-MVP's of this team.

[mr. synellinden]

It's pretty remarkable that we scored 84 points when we had a 10 minute stretch in the first half scoring only 3 points, all on FTs. Quinn hit a 3 with 12:52 left in the half - and then another one with 2:59 left in the half. In between we only had 3 FTs and missed 12 consecutive shots (6 of which were 3s). I thought UNC played excellent defense during that 10 minute stretch, and yet in the other 30 minutes of the game they gave up 81 points. It was a strange game in that respect.

[juise]

In the post-game press conference, K confirmed that Tyus was experiencing back spasms after the fall. The spasms didn't return for the rest of the game. He also mentioned that Tyus experienced back spasms during his junior year in high school and he will be evaluated when they get back on campus.

[gofurman]

I'm always struggling with this. On the one hand, it shows some character to do this for the seniors, regardless of the opponent (duke every other year), but on the other hand, you're clearly affecting your teams ability to compete. Good on him for sticking to his guns there. Roy gets a lot of crap for off the court stuff, and the possible unawareness and media quotes reflect poorly. I honestly think he is a good person, though, but perhaps unaware.


I have often thought about this. I wish K Would do this. You give Four yrs to a program you deserve to start Once!! I always thought this was super classy of Roy. Think Dean did.it too? Nice move. Classy. Maybe the middle ground is Play em until either first media time Out or Call TO if geting out of Hand a Few minutes in

[burnspbesq]

He's talking 'bout Tyus!

We can dig it!

[NYBri]

Today was one of the 107 greatest days in human history.

Boom!

[gofurman]

One Last Late Thought from me. Anyone Else Freak a Little when we passed to jah Late in game and unc fouled? And he missed... If unc makes a 3 there... Please doont pass to Jäh at That Point. Really Not sure why he was in Game w less than 2minutes left and unc gonna foul? Thoughts ?

[burnspbesq]

I thought the officials got both controversial calls involving Winslow exactly right.

On the kick, the defender was sliding very late, and had no chance to get into legal guarding position to draw a charge. Justise was protecting himself from being undercut. There is an analogous play in soccer: when a forward goes up for a header with his/her back to goal, he/she invariably goes up with elbows up, to protect himself/herself from over-the-back contact. As long as the elbows aren't swung with intent to create contact, if a defender runs into one it's just a foul, and no card.

I thought the leg tackle warranted a F1. It was not a basketball play, and it prevented the Carolina player from getting to a 50/50 ball and initiating transition the other way. It's the basketball equivalent of a "professional foul" in soccer, which would get a card 100 percent of the time.

[gumbomoop]

One Last Late Thought from me. Anyone Else Freak a Little when we passed to jah Late in game and unc fouled? And he missed... If unc makes a 3 there... Please doont pass to Jäh at That Point. Really Not sure why he was in Game w less than 2minutes left and unc gonna foul? Thoughts ?

I think Justise would've been at that spot on the floor at that moment. But K's choices were limited, so it had to be one of Jahlil, Amile, Marshall, and Jahlil has those hands to at least catch it safely. When protecting late lead, knowing opponent will foul, K is likely to play Justise and 4 guards. If he has enough timeouts, switch off subs for D and O.

But there might be times he's got to have at least one mediocre FT-shooter on the court. Hope to have one of the guards catch the inbounds pass. But in that specific situation, K probably needed to set players in spots to best catch the ball, i.e., not get it stolen.

[brevity]

Gotta say, it was really nice of UNC to honor Coach K before the game. The News & Observer captured the moment (http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/duke/article12993704.html#/tabPane=tabs-b45a5e63-1-1).

4856

And here's a closeup. Coach K has accumulated a number of awards over the years, but this has to be his first ACC Realtor Lifetime Achievement Trophy.

[gumbomoop]

All this player of the year talk about Okafor. I'm not completely sure he's the MVP of this team! Don't get me wrong. I really like him but Quinn and Tyus very well may be the Co-MVP's of this team.

Interesting too-brief comment by Katz on College Basketball Live this late night. He spoke too quickly, but I think he referred to the Duke staff's saying Jahlil is Duke's most talented, Tyus the most important, Quinn the MVP. I think that's what he said they said.

I guess that leaves Justise as the player most likely to take over for a 5-10 minute stretch......

[Edouble]

Gotta say, it was really nice of UNC to honor Coach K before the game. The News & Observer captured the moment (http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/duke/article12993704.html#/tabPane=tabs-b45a5e63-1-1).

4856

And here's a closeup. Coach K has accumulated a number of awards over the years, but this has to be his first ACC Realtor Lifetime Achievement Trophy.

1994, eh? They just won't let that go.

[KandG]

I thought the officials got both controversial calls involving Winslow exactly right.

On the kick, the defender was sliding very late, and had no chance to get into legal guarding position to draw a charge. Justise was protecting himself from being undercut. There is an analogous play in soccer: when a forward goes up for a header with his/her back to goal, he/she invariably goes up with elbows up, to protect himself/herself from over-the-back contact. As long as the elbows aren't swung with intent to create contact, if a defender runs into one it's just a foul, and no card.

I thought the leg tackle warranted a F1. It was not a basketball play, and it prevented the Carolina player from getting to a 50/50 ball and initiating transition the other way. It's the basketball equivalent of a "professional foul" in soccer, which would get a card 100 percent of the time.

This is an interesting perspective, and as someone who watches both basketball and soccer a lot, I can see the comparison. However, the kick still strikes me as a rarer and more dangerous looking play, especially the way Justise executed it.

I tend to agree with the people who feel Justise really isn't a bad guy or aggro Laettner-type trying to get under people's skin regularly. However, I really didn't like seeing another of those leg-tackle flagrants at a key moment in a big game (at Virginia & then against UNC last night). Interestingly, the flagrants produced deficits that were then followed by two of the best comebacks of the season. But Justise is likely going to be branded as a certain type of player with the officials, and that could bite the team hugely in the remaining games.

I trust the coaches will have a talk with him to address all this before the tournament. I'm all for an edge, but there have got to be some smarts and awareness of game situation that go along with that.

[richardjackson199]

Bilas made a big point early about Roy wanting to use depth to win the game. That didn't work - they went 12 deep, 10 if you don't count the seniors. 9th and 10th in minutes played were Pinson and Berry, who combined for 0 pts on 0 for 5 shooting, 1 assist, 5 fouls and two turnovers in 14 minutes. But give Roy credit for starting his seniors - a classy move which may have cost him the game - they were down 6 before the first sub.

Very Classy move to recognize K before the game.
Classy move to stick to his guns and start the seniors - but that hurt UNC tonight. Their home crowd was jacked to start the game esp. after they open with a steal and dunk 2-0. Then, we hit our first 5 shots with Quinn draining a 3 in walk-on Luke Davis's face and Tyus taking Luke Davis to the hole getting 2 free throws. We take the crowd out of it a bit, and we start by getting some momentum and confidence on the road. Then despite a horrid 10 minute stretch with no field goals and UNC's regulars playing great, we go into halftime only down 2 points. All points are valuable - at the end of the game I was thankful for every point cushion on that lead. I appreciated UNC essentially spotting us some points to start that game - I think they helped.

I'm glad Duke honors our seniors without starting walk-ons against our arch-rival. Play them at the end of a blowout like we did against Wake.

[Freethrw33]

I think Justise would've been at that spot on the floor at that moment. But K's choices were limited, so it had to be one of Jahlil, Amile, Marshall, and Jahlil has those hands to at least catch it safely. When protecting late lead, knowing opponent will foul, K is likely to play Justise and 4 guards. If he has enough timeouts, switch off subs for D and O.

But there might be times he's got to have at least one mediocre FT-shooter on the court. Hope to have one of the guards catch the inbounds pass. But in that specific situation, K probably needed to set players in spots to best catch the ball, i.e., not get it stolen.


K realized the issue and replaced Jah with Amile and let Amile inbound. (Amile is a better inbounder than Jah, as Amile can run the baseline more easily). For Amile, all the potential targets (Cook, Jones, Jones, Allen) were then either good or very good FT shooters. The hope of course is there is not a quick corner trap that forces a pass back to the inbounder (Amile). If a trap and the ball comes to Amile, he has to make sure he is ready, as he SHOULD be able to immediately swing it one more pass to the guard on the other side before he is fouled.

(Of course, all null if Amile improved his FT. Easy for me to say from here, but Amile needs much more arch on his FT.)

Water under the bridge for now. GREAT WIN!!!!

[dukelifer]

Just one observation -- based on Virginia's loss Saturday and Duke's win, I think it's very likely that when the polls come out Monday, Duke will be the No. 2 team in the rankings, behind only Kentucky.

Just guessing, but I think the top 5 will be:

1. Kentucky
2. Duke
3. Villanova
4. Virginia
5. Wisconsin

UVa is a very good team and they deserve credit to weather this tough stretch of injuries - but they are lucky that they did not get another loss or two in there. Duke is playing better and is more deserving of a 1 seed right now. If Duke makes it to the semis of the ACC - they should keep a 1 seed.

[Freethrw33]

Two seemingly minor plays that may be overlooked, so I want to call attention to them.

First play was in the first half. Winslow realized he was iso'd on Paige and assertively took Paige immediately to the post and made the easy basket. The play showed great awareness (for any player, not just a freshman). Just such a nice, under control, simple-looking basketball play. Few players in college have Winslow's variety of outside touch, fast break ability, and power moves in the post (he can really punish a smaller player - compare this to someone like Tokoto, who is similar size, and there is really no comparison).

Second play (really a series of plays) was when, after all the switching from picks on D, Grayson, on multiple occasions, ended-up matched up with a UNC post player (I think James, maybe Meeks?). I kept waiting for UNC to swing the ball to iso Allen on the block, as Allen looked to be giving up 5 inches and a lot of weight, but Allen just wouldn't let the UNC bigs get position against him. A little thing, but Grayson being able to hold his own on D in these situations was what kept him the game and allowed K to extend the bench (which is huge for ACC and NCAA Tourney chances).

[roywhite]

Second play (really a series of plays) was when, after all the switching from picks on D, Grayson, on multiple occasions, ended-up matched up with a UNC post player (I think James, maybe Meeks?). I kept waiting for UNC to swing the ball to iso Allen on the block, as Allen looked to be giving up 5 inches and a lot of weight, but Allen just wouldn't let the UNC bigs get position against him. A little thing, but Grayson being able to hold his own on D in these situations was what kept him the game and allowed K to extend the bench (which is huge for ACC and NCAA Tourney chances).

Yeah, I noticed that. I really like the way The Congressman (Allen, Grayson D(ukie)-FL) has come on.

Grayson seems much more aware of his role on the court, is learning how to play good defense, can stroke the 3-ball, and is money from the FT line -- he's now at 86%, not far from Quinn and Tyus, who finished the regular season at better than 88% from the line. Allen is an important part of the team heading into tournament time.

[Jackson]

I have missed seeing it somewhere else. I'm curious to see how everyone feels about the two kicks by Justise Winslow. The first baffled me because he had the shot made already. Was he trying to create contact and draw a foul? Was he trying to kick the UNC player? The second I guess was just frustration, almost an instinct. Dirty plays? He has never struck me as the type of player to lose his composure. Thoughts?

[NashvilleDevil]

Love it. Only concerns
- Okafor seems tentative Since hurt ankle vs UNC. Since then, he sat v Clemson. Torched a small VT team for 30. Did well vs Syracuse. But did nothing v wake? 6 pt 4 rb. Little tonight until later in game - though UNC is v big and that was similar to first UNC game. I guess I just thought that without a hurt ankle he wouldn't be held to 14 and 4. 14 is ok but 4 reb for Okafor? Two straight games of 4 Rebs (wake and UNC). Thoughts?

- please be ok Tyus. Pleeeez

Any knowledge on Tyus appreciated

He wasn't really needed against Wake because they were up the entire game.

[NYBri]

A lot of talk about Tyus Cook and their play, but let's not forget the job K did. Flat out left Roy in the dust...again. The press, leaving in the subs...every move he made was the exact right move.

And that goes for the season as well. At the end of January, we were looking at a team that was predictable, tired and lost. Now, after using zone, switching rotation, the Rasheed move ... Here we are, a complete team, unpredictable, with a bunch of winning options.

In my mind, this has been a great year for the best coach in the game.

[Saratoga2]

Nothing could be finer.... than to smack those Holes from Carolina.

Rough, physical game. Didn't pay off for UNC.

Winslow needs to learn to play nice. He lets his frustration show through some cheap fouls. I still hate how they called it a flagrant, but I guess by letter of law...

Tyus Jones, though. Wow.

To M,this was the only down point of the game as this is not the first time Justise has given cheap (dirty) fouls. It cost the team and he is getting a reputation for it. No doubt the refs will be aware of his fouls going forward. He is such a good player, he needs to be in and stay in the game. He needs to be coached up to avoid similar problems going forward.

[Seattle Hoo]

I'm always struggling with this. On the one hand, it shows some character to do this for the seniors, regardless of the opponent (duke every other year), but on the other hand, you're clearly affecting your teams ability to compete. Good on him for sticking to his guns there. Roy gets a lot of crap for off the court stuff, and the possible unawareness and media quotes reflect poorly. I honestly think he is a good person, though, but perhaps unaware.

Carolina had a lead. You can't really say the poor start cost them the game when they had a lead. All they had to do was keep it.

[bedeviled]

I have missed seeing it somewhere else. I'm curious to see how everyone feels about the two kicks by Justise Winslow...[SNIP]...Dirty plays? He has never struck me as the type of player to lose his composure. Thoughts?My take: They aren't a very big deal. No, they were not "dirty plays" in the sense of trying to injure someone. They were, however, plays to gain an unfair advantage. Accordingly, I think the refs made the exact right call in both circumstances. I know some wish that the second one was called a common foul instead of flagrant. But, if a player held someone back by wrapping his arms around their waist without a play on the ball, it should be called a flagrant. To me, using a foot to hold the leg is quite similar, though probably a lot less effective :) I have little doubt this kind of play (ie holds) happens frequently, but it is correct to call it when obvious.

Regarding the first one. I am on record as believing the leg extension on shots is a technique used to create space (post in previous thread (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?35309-MBB-Duke-92-UNC-90-(OT)-Post-Game-Thread&p=781453#post781453)). In that sense, the shooter claims space which the defender must give up or risk being called for a foul. In this instance, though, Winslow extended into the defender. He can't claim space already occupied. Technically, you could argue whether the defender had established a legal guarding position yet. But, in practice, I think refs are correct in generally calling fouls when the offender extends himself (usually a push-off with an arm) into the defender to create separation. Note that Tyus' shot in the first UNC game and Paige's shot in this past game resulted in no-calls by the officials - also correct in my view, because the shooters sought out contact into the defenders rather than claiming space.

The NBA has presumably cracked down on such plays with what they refer to as "the Reggie Miller" rule. I think the point is not to take away the creation of space, but to take away the purposeful extension into the defender and, most of all, the simulation. Here's a great picture of the extent to which Reggie Miller did this.
4858

And, finally, that first one reminded of this video of Dwyane Wade (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC9H66odmrk). Note that the announcers are first in line with calling it a defensive foul before then wondering if it should be an offensive foul. It can be a fine line, but the call is made easier when the contortions are more blatant. In this instance, I recall Winslow's kick as being out to the side. Correct call, IMHO.

[Saratoga2]

Great win and amazing toughness when things could have gotten bleak after Winslow's 3rd and Tyus' injury. What else can one add about Tyus Jones? Incredible performances all year long and two great ones against UNC. 12-12 from the FT line too - whew!!!

I'm not a Roy fan at all, but the presentation to K at the beginning of the game was a very, very classy move. It seemed that the crowd was at least decent about it too. In any case, I'm really, really glad we beat the cheats at their place.

I too was appreciative of the move by UNC to honor coach K at the beginning of the game. That type of civility is important in the college game. The fans were loud and enthusiastic, but not the animals we often saw when facing Maryland. Not being a Duke alum, but nevertheless a long term fan, I often wonder why some feel the need to harp on the shortcomings of UNC. Yes they are guilty of cheating and the NCAA will punish them but our Duke fans should show more class then to constantly bring up the topic. It seems like it is done to assuage a feeling of inferiority among some of the Duke faithful. Enough!

[freshmanjs]

Carolina had a lead. You can't really say the poor start cost them the game when they had a lead. All they had to do was keep it.

why? without the poor start, they might have had a bigger lead.

[TKG]

unc will be tough next year.

This should be Carolina's official motto for their Athletic Department. It is the refrain we hear every year whether it be football, basketball and, for good measure, lacrosse.

[75Crazie]

Yes they are guilty of cheating and the NCAA will punish them but our Duke fans should show more class then to constantly bring up the topic. It seems like it is done to assuage a feeling of inferiority among some of the Duke faithful. Enough!
I strongly disagree. For one thing, I do not feel Duke fans "constantly" do that. We don't really need to, with all the noise that PP brings to this subject. Secondly, Carolina has done almost nothing but deflect, deny, and obfuscate regarding the allegations; they are inviting the increased exposure just by their refusal to accept it.

I for one do not feel the least bit inferior to them. When I weigh the Duke program against the Carolina program, I feel nothing but superior.

[lotusland]

I'd think this sews up a 1-seed in NCAAT. I doubt even a loss on Thursday would drop us to a 2, with our impressive road wins.

Quinn has been all about the team and winning this year because, as he said, they really havn't won anything since he's been at Duke. Let's hang a 2015 ACC Tournament banner this week and worry about the NCAA next week.

[lotusland]

Well that was more impressive to me than the first game. Holding Carolina under 80 when the shot not only 3's, but midrange 2's ridiculously well is a remarkable achievement. You can say what you will about the defense, but they can step it up when it really counts.

That was also one of the better coached games I've seen this year. Coach K did a great job with his time outs, by using them in conjunction with the under 12 and under 8 media time outs to effectively create double timeouts and really give the guys legit rest between game segments. By the time the under 4 came around it was Carolina having to use them anyway so it wasn't needed.

I agree we did a good job defending the Heels by limiting the fast break opportunities and layups. The Cheats shot well and made the floaters we allowed but did not get all the way to the basket much. The Cheats also defended Duke better in this game imo. I think Jah is playing much better defense since his VT low point.

[lotusland]

We played an awful first half, but man did the cream rise to the top in the second half. 53 points!

This was a heart win. Winslow was off and in foul trouble all game. Okafor was struggling. Tyus Jones played much of the second half with a bruised butt. Didn't matter. When we needed guys to step up, they did.

Amile Jefferson and Matt Jones teamed up with a big offensive rebound and a 3.

Okafor finally stepped up with some really impressive finishes.

Cook bombed away from 3.

And Tyus Jones... WOW!!! What a performance by him. There just aren't enough superlatives to do him justice. He was otherwordly. Just in total control at all times. He put the team on his back down the stretch and just wouldn't let us lose.

I am just absolutely loving the backcourt of Cook and Jones. They are such a fabulous tandem.

I am too happy to write coherently anymore. GO DUKE!!!

On ly a small quibble -I did not think Jah struggled. He was doubled all game but he was patient and shot 7-9. Only 4 rebounds but his defense was solid.

[Saratoga2]

Having now read through the string, I now have a couple of thoughts to add.

1. If a player picks up multiple flagrant fouls in one game (F1s) are they ejected and do they have to sit out any follow on game? I believe F2's can get a player ejected.

2. I believe one of the greatests strengths of the Duke team on offense is that we have 4 legitimate scorers on the floor together for a large portion of the game. Other teams may have 2 or three. Try to double one of them and the others kill you. Now, it appears that we have a potential 5th very solid scoring option in Grayson and Matt is quite good as well. If we stay healthy, we have a good chance of going far.

3.Jahlil, when required to play big minutes has trouble getting down the floor on defense quickly. Not a surprise as most big men have trouble running the floor, especially when tired. When we are hitting a high percentage of our shots, it is not a serious issue as he has time following a made basket. When not hitting we need to send a guard down the floor to slow down any fast break opportunity. UNC likes to break but they really didn't get that many opportunities.

4. I really appreciate the leadership shown by Quinn this year. He is tough and plays with a lot of passion but he also is very cool headed and makes very few mistakes. Nice to have a guy we can count on to stay with the game plan. Having Tyus and Quinn together gives us two of the coolest heads in the college game. Almost an unfair advantage.

[Utley]

What has been most impressive over the last month and a half is how good we have been in the second half. We've been down a number of times and always risen to the occasion. It's crazy impressive when you think that it being done by freshman. I think the comeback against Saint John's really built that confidence.

At the same time - I don't think we can get too high just yet. We've been erratic during that time as well and we are getting into sudden death time where one erratic night ends things early. I don't think this is a bigger issue for us than others - just a reminder to stay grounded. This is a bunch of freshman at the end of a long season going into unknown territory.

The whole who is ranked higher between us and UVA should be answered this week - whoever goes further should be the higher ranked team. I would still vote them slightly higher than us by a thin margin based on consistency. I think the #1s should be UK, Duke/UVA and Nova - and think there is clear separation from the rest. AZ hasn't really played anyone. Wisconsin had an argument before the loss at MD and still has a risky game at Ohio State today - let's go Buckeyes.

Finally, I think the 2nd Justise foul definitely was intentional. In the replay he looks up to see our guy with a chance to get the ball and slows the UNC guy down. Heady if it works, but unnecessary and potentially damaging. I don't think it was dirty, just unwise.

Next few weeks should be fun. This team has given us such a remarkable season - its Final Four worthy. Let's Go Duke!

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Second play (really a series of plays) was when, after all the switching from picks on D, Grayson, on multiple occasions, ended-up matched up with a UNC post player (I think James, maybe Meeks?). I kept waiting for UNC to swing the ball to iso Allen on the block, as Allen looked to be giving up 5 inches and a lot of weight, but Allen just wouldn't let the UNC bigs get position against him. A little thing, but Grayson being able to hold his own on D in these situations was what kept him the game and allowed K to extend the bench (which is huge for ACC and NCAA Tourney chances).

I also noted this play....it was just a little thing easily overlooked, but another example of poor basketball IQ and execution by the Heels.

It was Allen caught defending James, and he was doing his best, but James had him on his hip down low with plenty of space...ready...hand up calling for the entry pass...and Tokoto(I'm pretty sure) looked square at him and passed to the wing.

I just shook my head.

[Devilwin]

UVa is a very good team and they deserve credit to weather this tough stretch of injuries - but they are lucky that they did not get another loss or two in there. Duke is playing better and is more deserving of a 1 seed right now. If Duke makes it to the semis of the ACC - they should keep a 1 seed.

Agreed. I think we should be favored to win the ACC Tournament. Right now, we are better than Virginia. Just makes the State and Miami losses harder to take though, for me anyway.

[TruBlu]

I often wonder why some feel the need to harp on the shortcomings of UNC. Yes they are guilty of cheating and the NCAA will punish them but our Duke fans should show more class then to constantly bring up the topic. It seems like it is done to assuage a feeling of inferiority among some of the Duke faithful. Enough!


I strongly disagree. For one thing, I do not feel Duke fans "constantly" do that. We don't really need to, with all the noise that PP brings to this subject. Secondly, Carolina has done almost nothing but deflect, deny, and obfuscate regarding the allegations; they are inviting the increased exposure just by their refusal to accept it.

I for one do not feel the least bit inferior to them. When I weigh the Duke program against the Carolina program, I feel nothing but superior.

I am totally on board with you on this, 75 Crazie.

Back to the game, did anyone else notice the obvious un-called lane violation by UNC on Jah's free throw at the end of the game? It was more like a lane invasion, and was much worse than the "Hokey-Pokey put your left foot in, take your left foot out" called on Matt Jones in a previous game.

[Wander]

A lot of talk about Tyus Cook and their play, but let's not forget the job K did. Flat out left Roy in the dust...again. The press, leaving in the subs...every move he made was the exact right move.


I agree, and don't forget his use of timeouts to basically extend the TV timeouts and (a) keep our guys fresh, and (b) buy enough time for Tyus to feel better and get back in the game.

[lotusland]

In the Wake and UNC game, he just got constantly doubled. He's not quick enough with his decisions on the double. He needs to pass out of it quicker or be more decisive with his offensive move.

And UNC is BIG. They have several large, long bodies to throw at him.

Plus Jah only played 19 minutes in what was a rout from the word go. It was a good opportunity to rest and heal. No need for concern based on his stats in the Wake game. Last night he was double teamed a passed out of it well without turning the ball over. I thought his lower rebounding numbers were due to guarding the shooters more closely. Tyus and Amile cleaned up the glass.

[Bob Green]

2. I believe one of the greatests strengths of the Duke team on offense is that we have 4 legitimate scorers on the floor together for a large portion of the game. Other teams may have 2 or three. Try to double one of them and the others kill you. Now, it appears that we have a potential 5th very solid scoring option in Grayson and Matt is quite good as well. If we stay healthy, we have a good chance of going far.



I'd take it one step further and say with our starting line-up we have 5 legitimate scorers on the floor together. Matt Jones is not a player opposing defenses can afford to ignore. He didn't shoot good last night (1-5); however, over the current 11 game winning streak, he is averaging 8.3 points per game. Throw out his high game (17) and his low game (0), to eliminate outliers and his average is 8.2 ppg.

Grayson Allen coming on strong for the stretch run gives Coach K the option of putting another superb free throw shooter on the court in late game situations.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

4. I really appreciate the leadership shown by Quinn this year. He is tough and plays with a lot of passion but he also is very cool headed and makes very few mistakes. Nice to have a guy we can count on to stay with the game plan. Having Tyus and Quinn together gives us two of the coolest heads in the college game. Almost an unfair advantage.

Cook is deserving of a first team All ACC spot this season.

Jones, Winslow and Okafor have had some big games, but Cook has consistently led Duke this season with his effort and his ability to hit big shots and stretch defenses.

To beat Duke he has to be neutralized, but nobody has been able to do it so far.

[lotusland]

Great win and amazing toughness when things could have gotten bleak after Winslow's 3rd and Tyus' injury. What else can one add about Tyus Jones? Incredible performances all year long and two great ones against UNC. 12-12 from the FT line too - whew!!!

I'm not a Roy fan at all, but the presentation to K at the beginning of the game was a very, very classy move. It seemed that the crowd was at least decent about it too. In any case, I'm really, really glad we beat the cheats at their place.

I thought the presentation was weird. K was gracious but he seemed like he just wanted to get rid of it, start the game and not let his team lose focus because of it. It almost seemed like Huck wanted to be a classy guy too after Duke honored Dean in Cameron. I can't help but think it was really about Roy...

[MChambers]

I certainly agree that Coach K had yet another masterful coaching performance last night. The Jefferson backcourt trap was great. Reminded me of the 2001 game in the Dean Dome, with Battier trapping (albeit more in the halfcourt).

Anyone notice the elbow to the head that Quinn took from James on a drive to the hoop with about 2 minutes to go? It was the play where Jahlil was whistled for basket interference. Quinn was very slow to get up after that. Should have been a flagrant foul, but I think everyone was watching the rebound battle. James is pretty much a walking foul on defense.

I thought UNC played very rough, especially in the first half on offense. Lots of moving screens that weren't called. Glad Duke was able to play through it.

Thought the calls on Winslow were correct, although I agree that he got fouled on the rebound before he lifted his leg on Johnson. Also think Johnson's movement made Winslow's foul look worse than it was, by lifting Winslow's leg.

Matt Jones had some fantastic defensive plays. He's becoming one of my favorites.

[rifraf]

I have often thought about this. I wish K Would do this. You give Four yrs to a program you deserve to start Once!! I always thought this was super classy of Roy. Think Dean did.it too? Nice move. Classy. Maybe the middle ground is Play em until either first media time Out or Call TO if geting out of Hand a Few minutes in

I feel the same way, though to be fair...K actually plans to use all of his timeouts and doesn't have 1 or 2 to spare in this situation.

[gcashwell]

Every single player on our team did a great job last night. I thought K was masterful as well.

I thought the key was us only being down two at half after shooting 15% for a while. That shows how tough this team is.

[weezie]

I thought the presentation was weird. K was gracious but he seemed like he just wanted to get rid of it, start the game and not let his team lose focus because of it....

I think he kept his eyes up for possible incoming projectiles!

[CDu]

I thought the officials got both controversial calls involving Winslow exactly right.

On the kick, the defender was sliding very late, and had no chance to get into legal guarding position to draw a charge. Justise was protecting himself from being undercut. There is an analogous play in soccer: when a forward goes up for a header with his/her back to goal, he/she invariably goes up with elbows up, to protect himself/herself from over-the-back contact. As long as the elbows aren't swung with intent to create contact, if a defender runs into one it's just a foul, and no card.

I thought the leg tackle warranted a F1. It was not a basketball play, and it prevented the Carolina player from getting to a 50/50 ball and initiating transition the other way. It's the basketball equivalent of a "professional foul" in soccer, which would get a card 100 percent of the time.

I absolutely agree. People are getting incorrectly hung up on the amount of contact and forgetting the other part of the rule that applies to it being a basketball play. It was a flagrant foul regardless of the fact that the refs had no option to call it a regular foul. It was a flagrant foul just like his figure four leglock on Anderson was a flagrant. You simply can't do that. It was dirty and he was rightly called for it.

I also disagree that it was the result of an uncalled foul. Winslow and Jackson both jumped for a loose ball and collided in the air. Winslow lost his balance and fell. Sound familiar? It should, because the same thing happened to Paige when he collided with Winslow at the end of the first game. It was correctly a no-call then and it was correctly a no-call last night.

Regardless, Winslow has to be better than that. We have been fortunate that none of his indiscretions have cost us the game, but each could have and I don't want to tempt fate in an elimination game. Channel that intensity for good and not for evil.

[wilko]

I have missed seeing it somewhere else. I'm curious to see how everyone feels about the two kicks by Justise Winslow. The first baffled me because he had the shot made already. Was he trying to create contact and draw a foul? Was he trying to kick the UNC player? The second I guess was just frustration, almost an instinct. Dirty plays? He has never struck me as the type of player to lose his composure. Thoughts?

I love his aggressiveness.
He brings a Laettener-esge edge to the game and I want that instinct and honed for a fine edge not blunted.

That said I have no idea what he thinking or trying to do. It was silly. I cant try to defend it. I think the 2nd instance that drew the flagrant is a no-call if the 1st one wasn't SO obvious.

[stillcrazie]

I have been appreciating every game since the season started, but I can't help but wish we had this team for FOUR YEARS!!! It was clear they were special from the beginning, but they have lived up to the hype and beyond. What a ride it's been!

Hopefully, all the ankles and backs heal over the next few days and we head into the ACC tournament at 100%. GO DUKE!!!

[Hingeknocker]

...It was the play where Jahlil was whistled for basket interference...

That seemed like a very dubious call to me, at the time. Honest question: is it an automatic basket interference if any offensive player touches the rim, no matter the context? Jah was going up for a put back dunk and it looked like the ball was tipped out of his path, so he really couldn't help having his arm follow through to the rim. He held on to the rim for just a split second and it seemed to have no impact on the path/direction of the rebound.

Borderline similar play happened in the first half, when Amile went up for a dunk and lost or had the ball swatted away as he rose to the hoop. He grabbed the rim with a free hand, too. Does it make a difference that Amile was the original ball-handler in that case?

[Emerrick]

One comment about Justice's so-called kick.

Although I don't approve of what he did and very surprised he didn't get called for a foul, as one who has spent over 25 years in martial arts, it was more of a push used to gain advantage and distance from the opponent than to cause any harm. nonetheless, he needs to get his head on straight and stop making those bone-head moves. This is hard to do in the heat of the moment especially when he plays at the level of intensity in which he does - yet he needs to control it. He's a fighter and lives on the edge.

Love that to be honest - unfortunately he falls off the edge occasionally.

[lotusland]

I think he kept his eyes up for possible incoming projectiles!

I think the plexi-glass plaque gets thrown in the back of K's closet. In retirement I imagine Huck will stop by K's office from time to relive his glory days and K will have to temporarily take down a his calendar or Yoda quotes and put the plaque up until he leaves. Huck will think to himself "no one can ever say o'l Roy wasn't a classy coach" (Huck actually thinks of himself in the 3rd person too).

[Newton_14]

A few additional late night game thoughts:

-We've been getting a lot of wins in the Dean Dome and each one is sweet

-Roy's clock management in the final 2 mins was terrible. Down 8 with two to go, they should have started fouling, much as we did a few weeks back. They let us burn a minute of clock very easily.

-Our D was pretty good tonight. Amile played a big role in that.

-The difference in ability between our front court and back court in shooting free throws could not be more stark. 85% vs 55% or thereabouts.


I totally agree with every bullet point here, and wanted to expound upon a few of them. I will start with the one I put in bold.

If I am a unc-cheat fan today, I am either mad as hell or perplexed. First, I am still scratching my head at why there were so few post up attempts with Meeks and Johnson? Both killed us in Durham. Last night there was no point of emphasis to get the ball to Meeks especially, and to a lesser degree Johnson. Given the success in Durham, I expected them to pound it inside, and get our frontline in foul trouble. Never happened. I have to wonder if the fact that Paige seems much healthier, and played like the normal Paige, hurt them more than it helped, because they went away from their bread and butter. And do note, I am not bashing Roy here. He basically said the same thing in his presser in terms of "way too many jumpshots, and far too few post ups". He said most of Brice Johnson's points were jumpers, not post ups.
But the last 3 minutes of the game is on Roy in terms of strategy chosen. It's funny, had Dean Smith been on the sidelines, the last 3 minutes would have taken 45 minutes to play, we would have had to make tons of foul shots, and they would have pressed full court in a press so aggressive you would think their mom's lives were at stake. Instead, they just ran their offense with zero sense of urgency and never started fouling until 1 minute left. At one point, when they lolly-gagged the ball up in beating our press, and just started aimlessly passing the ball around the perimeter with zero attacking, you could hear the crowd imploring them, begging them, to GO!!!. Wheat can say what he wants, but part of that is on Roy. It was just a bizarre thing to watch.


Amile. Folks, that young man was a huge part of the win last night, and I loved what K did with him on offense late in the game.

K pulled out the ol Casey Sanders/Shane Battier dance partners, using Amile to just set high ball screens for Tyus, to get him 3's or drives, and also to pull the second unc big out of the paint to make doubling Jahlil more difficult. That was awesome.
Amile though, was just awesome in that press. He was very instrumental in making it extremely difficult for unc to get the ball up the court. That was very fun to watch, and Amile worked his butt off and defended like a mad man in a strategy employed by K, that in my opinion was the key chess move of the game, and a large part of the reason why we won. This too, was another area of head scratching with regards to unc strategy. Did anyone notice that there were almost no adjustments by unc on attacking the press, and also, very rarely did they ever try to attack the press to score, which is a cardinal sin? Amile also played very well defensively in the halfcourt. He was huge, especially with Winslow in foul trouble and sitting.


Winslow. First, I will admit he is my favorite player on this team, I wear my 12 jersey every game whether attending in person or sitting in my chair at home, and I have studied him more over the course of the season than any other player on the team. He definitely plays with an edge, and does need to reign it in just a tad, but he is NOT a dirty player. I will argue that with anyone. You have to be smart. I have long said that the dumbest thing I have ever seen a Duke player do in a game was Laettner stepping on Timberlake's chest, as a Final Four was on the line and it both helped the other team but also risked Laettner getting thrown out of the most critical of games.

On the kick of Johnson, I fully believe the original intent there was to create space and prevent Johnson from blocking the shot, but he had a mental fart and extended the leg far too much. I do not think the intent there was to score a bucket while kicking the crap out of Johnson out of anger or payback.
On the leg whip of Jackson, it was an impulsive reaction, and I have seen kids do that numerous times. Normally they call it a common foul right on the spot and roll on. However, the ref (Kersey) made a thing out of it due to the earlier kick that only got called for a common foul. It was the same ref on both plays. I agree with Wahoo in that in the end it evened out. It was just that instead of "flagrant/common", it was "common/flagrant". Props to Winslow for making up for it by getting us 5 quick points after the flagrant. I wholeheartedly feel though, that the refs went into reactionary mode and 1. Did not call a foul on Johnson when he fouled Justise on the ensuing dunk, and 2. They fouled Justise out with two ticky tack fouls because they were tired of dealing with him. I don't feel that is right, but I have zero doubt that is what happened.


Tyus and Quinn. What a joy to watch these two guys play. Both have had just an outstanding year and I agree with Bilas that Quinn has had a First Team All-America season. I will be super disappointed if he does not make AP 1st Team All-America. He has shot the ball incredibly well, hit a ton of dagger 3's, scored very effectively in the paint on ridiculously difficult shots, played good and at times outstanding defense, and finally, been as good a leader as you could possibly ask for. I have to wonder how different his Duke career would have been had we had the luxury of playing him at 2-Guard all 4 seasons, and had he been healthy all 4 seasons. He deserves every accolade and reward coming his way.

Tyus Jones. In the presser K compared him to Amaker and Hurley as Freshman and stopped there. Short list. He is easily the best true point guard Duke has had since Hurley. I could write a book about him. The way he sees the floor is incredible and all of his skills were on display last night. They had no one who could guard him really. He passed when he needed to pass, shot when he needed to shot. My favorite play came late when he crouched down off the screen, and knifed his way into the lane, scoring over the much bigger Brice Johnson. Just a great, great PG and ball player.


Finally, shout out to the bench. Amile, Grayson, and MP3 all played well and contributed. We retook the lead with all 3 on the court and all of Jahlil, Tyus, Winslow on the bench. K made a point to note in the presser that the assistants were about to send Jahlil back in and K stopped them. He said he told them "they are playing well and got us the lead. leave them be for now". K also made a point to note that during that stretch all 3 of those Freshman were jumping up and down pulling like crazy for the subs. Special team he said. I agree. Very special team indeed. Last night solidified for me that this is a special team. A lesser team would have lost. I love their chances in the tourney.


Go Duke!

[CDu]

That seemed like a very dubious call to me, at the time. Honest question: is it an automatic basket interference if any offensive player touches the rim, no matter the context? Jah was going up for a put back dunk and it looked like the ball was tipped out of his path, so he really couldn't help having his arm follow through to the rim. He held on to the rim for just a split second and it seemed to have no impact on the path/direction of the rebound.

Borderline similar play happened in the first half, when Amile went up for a dunk and lost or had the ball swatted away as he rose to the hoop. He grabbed the rim with a free hand, too. Does it make a difference that Amile was the original ball-handler in that case?

No player is supposed to touch the rim, backboard, or net while the ball is in the air. That call was automatic.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

I think the plexi-glass plaque gets thrown in the back of K's closet. In retirement I imagine Huck will stop by K's office from time to relive his glory days and K will have to temporarily take down a his calendar or Yoda quotes and put the plaque up until he leaves. Huck will think to himself "no one can ever say o'l Roy wasn't a classy coach" (Huck actually thinks of himself in the 3rd person too).
Maybe Roy is really Danny Ocean and he hid a nano sized mic and camera in the award with hope of listening in on the master for some coaching tips and tricks.

[OldPhiKap]

I thought the presentation was weird. K was gracious but he seemed like he just wanted to get rid of it, start the game and not let his team lose focus because of it. It almost seemed like Huck wanted to be a classy guy too after Duke honored Dean in Cameron. I can't help but think it was really about Roy...

K said in the post-game PC that he did not want to do it, but Roy insisted (or something like thT).

They we're ripping UNC this morning on the Satellite college sports channel this morning -- "could you see Auburn giving Nick Saban a presentation before the Iron Bowl?!?"

Very nice of Roy. To do it, but weird. I really think Roy is gonna hang it up and wanted to do something nice for Mike (K also said in the PC that he and Roy are good friends, serve on boards together, etc).

[stillcrazie]

K said in the post-game PC that he did not want to do it, but Roy insisted (or something like thT).

They we're ripping UNC this morning on the Satellite college sports channel this morning -- "could you see Auburn giving Nick Saban a presentation before the Iron Bowl?!?"

Very nice of Roy. To do it, but weird. I really think Roy is gonna hang it up and wanted to do something nice for Mike (K also said in the PC that he and Roy are good friends, serve on boards together, etc).

I don't think Roy does this if K doesn't do the special presentation for Dean. It was appropriate for Dean; Coach K looked embarrassed and said in the presser that he did not want it to detract from the game itself. I don't mean to sound unappreciative, but it did seem a bit forced to me.

[superdave]

Soft play continues to plague the Heels. They don't play strong through contact, they play timid when the game gets tight, they reach and foul to avoid contact instead of bodying up, and they make mental mistakes in key moments. Been that way in big games all season.

UNC is not making basketball plays, they are making the same mistakes, over and over. It's got to be driving Roy nuts.

Duke did just the opposite, they were strong on the ball all game, stayed in the attack mode and played with confidence...and deserved the win.

On to the tournies....

Unc reminds me of Duke's team last year. It's all in their head.

But at least Paige got going for them. If he and Johnson both play well, they should win some post-season games.

[uh_no]

My impression is that Justise is a good person, even popular with opponents. He's usually a steady, low-key, no-drama guy. Even tonight, his actions were not those of an a-hole.

I'm sure he is. I didn't mean to rip him as a person. I think what i meant to do was to insinuate that despite being a good person, sometimes you can do things on the court that don't reflect that, and as a good person, one should strive to work to eliminate those things as opposed to celebrating them as gritty or whatever. I think "a-hole" was probably the wrong term, as it was meant to solely describe individual actions rather than the individual, and the two are not necessarily correlated. I think it might have been....nay....I know it was the glenfiddich coming out :)

[Newton_14]

K said in the post-game PC that he did not want to do it, but Roy insisted (or something like thT).

They we're ripping UNC this morning on the Satellite college sports channel this morning -- "could you see Auburn giving Nick Saban a presentation before the Iron Bowl?!?"

Very nice of Roy. To do it, but weird. I really think Roy is gonna hang it up and wanted to do something nice for Mike (K also said in the PC that he and Roy are good friends, serve on boards together, etc).

Don't do this often OPK, but going to politely disagree with you and Lotus here. The season has seen two major events, 1 impacting Duke (K wins 1000) and 1 impacting UNC (Losing Dean). In Durham, K put together the best tribute to Dean we have seen from an opposing team, and Roy thought it was great. With that, Roy said he wanted to show the same level of respect to Duke and make sure a proper and similar tribute was given to K for win 1000. I thought it was great, appropriate, and fitting for the greatest rivalry in sports. I don't feel Roy or UNC should be ripped for doing it. They should be applauded.

Now, that said, the elephant in the room is still there (unc scandal). And to Saratoga, the reason we keep hammering them on it is not so much about the cheating itself, even though its the worst cheating in the history of college sports. The reason is due to how unc has handled it. If they would simply own up to it, self-impose, and even simply promise never to do it again, a lot of things would change and we could truly move on and get back to discussing the games. They have tarnished the greatest rivalry in the history of sports. We want that rivalry back. We can't have it back until things have been righted and corrected.

As long as we remain in limbo with unc choosing to deny, deflect, and not self-impose, and the NCAA drags their feet while hammering other schools for lesser sins, we are going to hammer and ridicule unc and rightly so.

[dbcooper]

I certainly agree that Coach K had yet another masterful coaching performance last night. The Jefferson backcourt trap was great. Reminded me of the 2001 game in the Dean Dome, with Battier trapping (albeit more in the halfcourt).

Anyone notice the elbow to the head that Quinn took from James on a drive to the hoop with about 2 minutes to go? It was the play where Jahlil was whistled for basket interference. Quinn was very slow to get up after that. Should have been a flagrant foul, but I think everyone was watching the rebound battle. James is pretty much a walking foul on defense.


I agree 100% with your post MChambers - I said the same thing when ESPN showed the replay through the Backboard Camera - James hit Quinn and knocked him COMPLETELY out of the camera shot!! No Foul called.... but basket interference was?...

Great, Gritty, Heart Won Game Guys!!

DB ---E

[wilko]

As long as we remain in limbo with unc choosing to deny, deflect, and not self-impose, and the NCAA drags their feet while hammering other schools for lesser sins, we are going to hammer and ridicule unc and rightly so.

So we cant hammer UNC w/o a reason? Cant we just do it for fun?
My lifes work has been invalidated.

[ncexnyc]

Come Monday I'll have the pleasure of watching one of my co-workers carry two six packs of 20oz Cokes into work for me. If anyone's in Fayetteville on Monday, stop by and have one on a heel.

I'm sorry to see such a solid win breakdown into a discussion about Justise and his style of play. Many on this board didn't appreciate Deron Washington's antics, when he played for VT and I'm sure the other fans around the ACC will begin feeling the same about Justise, if they don't already do so. I've got no problem with intense play, but chippy/dirty play will eventually cost us a game and at this point in time, that's a season ender.

Batman and Robin were sensational again last night. Having what amounts to two PG's on the floor at the same time has worked really well for us this season, but I'll give Quinn the lion's share of the credit for that, as he accepted the role he was assigned and has flourished in it.

Matt seems like such a heady player. I loved that pump fake, but what really caught my eye was the fact that he had the sense to go back past the 3pt arc after executing that move.

As others have already mentioned Amile had a nice game. It won't show on the stat sheet, but he was definitely a disrupt force, which UNC didn't counter.

[Dukeford]

I'm sure he is. I didn't mean to rip him as a person. I think what i meant to do was to insinuate that despite being a good person, sometimes you can do things on the court that don't reflect that, and as a good person, one should strive to work to eliminate those things as opposed to celebrating them as gritty or whatever. I think "a-hole" was probably the wrong term, as it was meant to solely describe individual actions rather than the individual, and the two are not necessarily correlated. I think it might have been....nay....I know it was the glenfiddich coming out :)

I'm betting that the first half kick was driven by some chippiness between Winslow and Johnson.
Earlier, Johnson had that great breakaway move for a layup against Winslow.
As he came back down the court, Johnson was definitely grinning and sticking his tongue out at Winslow.
It was a little bit of taunting. But that was a great move/adjustment by Johnson on the layup. It would have been hard for anybody to defend against that move.

[NashvilleDevil]

Okafor won the tip by the way

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Don't do this often OPK, but going to politely disagree with you and Lotus here. The season has seen two major events, 1 impacting Duke (K wins 1000) and 1 impacting UNC (Losing Dean). In Durham, K put together the best tribute to Dean we have seen from an opposing team, and Roy thought it was great. With that, Roy said he wanted to show the same level of respect to Duke and make sure a proper and similar tribute was given to K for win 1000. I thought it was great, appropriate, and fitting for the greatest rivalry in sports. I don't feel Roy or UNC should be ripped for doing it. They should be applauded.

Now, that said, the elephant in the room is still there (unc scandal). And to Saratoga, the reason we keep hammering them on it is not so much about the cheating itself, even though its the worst cheating in the history of college sports. The reason is due to how unc has handled it. If they would simply own up to it, self-impose, and even simply promise never to do it again, a lot of things would change and we could truly move on and get back to discussing the games. They have tarnished the greatest rivalry in the history of sports. We want that rivalry back. We can't have it back until things have been righted and corrected.

As long as we remain in limbo with unc choosing to deny, deflect, and not self-impose, and the NCAA drags their feet while hammering other schools for lesser sins, we are going to hammer and ridicule unc and rightly so.

I agree with you here. It was a nice gesture that doesn't necessarily need to be second guessed.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Unc reminds me of Duke's team last year. It's all in their head.

But at least Paige got going for them. If he and Johnson both play well, they should win some post-season games.

As talented as Johnson is, I won't give him a pass for his soft play last night. He's still got to play stronger. He's a leader with his play, and he needs to show more willingness to mix it up. Soft play is contagious. He's getting better, but he has a long way to go.

Paige is playing strong with the ball and on defense...but Johnson...not as much as he could.

Look at that one weak defensive effort on the isolation with Okafor where he simi-flopped as an example. He should have not been afraid of the contact and stopped his drive. Put a weak FT shooter on the line if you have to...but instead he meekly falls over when Okafor breezed by for an easy two. Pitiful.

Jackson is playing tough, but he's just not tough physically and it shows. He's like the little dog nipping at your pants leg, mean, tough little SOB, but he doesn't scare you.

Meeks? C'mon...he's going through the motions out there regarding an "I won't back down" attitude. I saw where some IC poster dubbed him "marsh pillow"... I thought that was pretty funny, and apt.

I'd start Britt,Paige,Jackson,Johnson and James the next game and set the tone to my players. This may not be the most talented line up, but these are the guys I see giving the most consistent effort.

There's a fine line between "chippy" and "tough". Winslow crossed it, and paid for it with the Refs, but I didn't see anything "dirty".

What I did see was just one UNC player respond to his aggressiveness... Paige, the smallest UNC player on the court.

There was a sequence where Winslow crashed the boards and sent Paige flying to get a put back..marginal over the back play, but a strong/fearless effort by Winslow none the less.. Refs saw it as a no call... Fine...Paige was clearly angry and aggressively got right up and ran the floor to demand the ball, which he got...and took a "you're not gonna stop me from draining this darn 3" as payback...which he did.

He had some attitude,...showed the toughness that many on this team are still lacking.

It's a man's game out there this time of year and if UNC continues to fail to come to grips with that there are early exits in their future.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

I agree with you here. It was a nice gesture that doesn't necessarily need to be second guessed.
But the crazy part is how much the heel faithful are questioning it. They are hating it much more than we are scratching our heads about it. It was clearly intended as a thoughtful gesture but it was awkward at best. Kind of like Roy's awkward use of the four corners play to honor Dean.

[Duke95]

We schooled UNC so hard last night, all their players got 3 AFAM credits.

[dbcooper]

But the crazy part is how much the heel faithful are questioning it. They are hating it much more than we are scratching our heads about it. It was clearly intended as a thoughtful gesture but it was awkward at best. Kind of like Roy's awkward use of the four corners play to honor Dean.

Thank God the Shot Clock fixed the "Four Corners Issue" before Basketball fans started dying of boredom and ruined the game forever......

DB ---E

[elvis14]

Anyone notice the elbow to the head that Quinn took from James on a drive to the hoop with about 2 minutes to go? It was the play where Jahlil was whistled for basket interference. Quinn was very slow to get up after that. Should have been a flagrant foul, but I think everyone was watching the rebound battle. James is pretty much a walking foul on defense.


No player is supposed to touch the rim, backboard, or net while the ball is in the air. That call was automatic.

The call on the goaltending may be automatic but the fact is that QC got hit in the mouth by James so the goaltending should not have mattered. I was on the phone with my best friend while watching the game and we went nuts at that point. My friend went frame by frame and sent me a picture of QC getting hit by James (who we just started calling "the defensive end"). It was a ridiculous no call and you can see QC realigning his jaw before he got up.

Lots of talk about Winslow's fouls last night. The first was was more of a push than a kick and it was a good call. The funny thing about the trip was that when they showed it in slow motion it looked really bad. Then they showed it in real time and I realized that the slow-mo replay made it look much worse than it really was. Should have been a personal foul. Refs missed the call and using an F1 as a makeup call was not the correct answer.

[dbcooper]

A few additional late night game thoughts:

-Roy's clock management in the final 2 mins was terrible. Down 8 with two to go, they should have started fouling, much as we did a few weeks back. They let us burn a minute of clock very easily.

Bad Decision making Rob Lowe says Hi Roy!;););)


DB ---E

[kshepinthehouse]

As talented as Johnson is, I won't give him a pass for his soft play last night. He's still got to play stronger. He's a leader with his play, and he needs to show more willingness to mix it up. Soft play is contagious. He's getting better, but he has a long way to go.

Paige is playing strong with the ball and on defense...but Johnson...not as much as he could.

Look at that one weak defensive effort on the isolation with Okafor where he simi-flopped as an example. He should have not been afraid of the contact and stopped his drive. Put a weak FT shooter on the line if you have to...but instead he meekly falls over when Okafor breezed by for an easy two. Pitiful.

Jackson is playing tough, but he's just not tough physically and it shows. He's like the little dog nipping at your pants leg, mean, tough little SOB, but he doesn't scare you.

Meeks? C'mon...he's going through the motions out there regarding an "I won't back down" attitude. I saw where some IC poster dubbed him "marsh pillow"... I thought that was pretty funny, and apt.

I'd start Britt,Paige,Jackson,Johnson and James the next game and set the tone to my players. This may not be the most talented line up, but these are the guys I see giving the most consistent effort.

There's a fine line between "chippy" and "tough". Winslow crossed it, and paid for it with the Refs, but I didn't see anything "dirty".

What I did see was just one UNC player respond to his aggressiveness... Paige, the smallest UNC player on the court.

There was a sequence where Winslow crashed the boards and sent Paige flying to get a put back..marginal over the back play, but a strong/fearless effort by Winslow none the less.. Refs saw it as a no call... Fine...Paige was clearly angry and aggressively got right up and ran the floor to demand the ball, which he got...and took a "you're not gonna stop me from draining this darn 3" as payback...which he did.

He had some attitude,...showed the toughness that many on this team are still lacking.

It's a man's game out there this time of year and if UNC continues to fail to come to grips with that there are early exits in their future.


I appreciate you posting on here after the game but I disagree with your assessment about the heels playing soft. I thought they played pretty aggressively for the most part and Capel said at halftime that it was a very physical first half. I thought Carolina made some bone headed turnovers at the end but I think the obvious difference in Duke and UNC is the talent differential. I'm not sure that it really matters how "strong" their players play it's just really hard for them to overcome the talent gap. UNC has too many players with too many holes in their game to beat a team like Duke very often. For example, take a player like Tokoto. If he could shoot at all UNC would be exponentially better. He would be one of the best players in the nation and UNC would be so much tougher to guard. The lack of a point guard to play alongside Paige and the lack of a wing that can shoot are the two things UNC are missing in my opinion.

[sagegrouse]

Well that was more impressive to me than the first game. Holding Carolina under 80 when the shot not only 3's, but midrange 2's ridiculously well is a remarkable achievement. You can say what you will about the defense, but they can step it up when it really counts.

That was also one of the better coached games I've seen this year. Coach K did a great job with his time outs, by using them in conjunction with the under 12 and under 8 media time outs to effectively create double timeouts and really give the guys legit rest between game segments. By the time the under 4 came around it was Carolina having to use them anyway so it wasn't needed.

Give Roy some credit. He used all his timeouts last night. See, maybe he does read IC.

[porkpa]

I absolutely love our team and the way they are playing.

[Wander]

I appreciate you posting on here after the game but I disagree with your assessment about the heels playing soft. I thought they played pretty aggressively for the most part and Capel said at halftime that it was a very physical first half. I thought Carolina made some bone headed turnovers at the end but I think the obvious difference in Duke and UNC is the talent differential. I'm not sure that it really matters how "strong" their players play it's just really hard for them to overcome the talent gap. UNC has too many players with too many holes in their game to beat a team like Duke very often. For example, take a player like Tokoto. If he could shoot at all UNC would be exponentially better. He would be one of the best players in the nation and UNC would be so much tougher to guard. The lack of a point guard to play alongside Paige and the lack of a wing that can shoot are the two things UNC are missing in my opinion.

Totally agree. Duke has better players than UNC - Duke SHOULD win if both teams are playing their best. That UNC was so close in both games implies to me they played with plenty of effort. Tokoto would be an ACC POY candidate if he could shoot well.

The only thing I'll add to this is in addition to the talent gap, there was a huge coaching move in K going to the Amile press and Roy failing to make any adjustments. I would have adjusted to that by changing the UNC inbounder to Britt or Berry so that there would always be two ball handlers available to bringing the ball up instead of a big dude. But I'm glad Roy didn't.

[OldPhiKap]

Give Roy some credit. He used all his timeouts last night. See, maybe he does read IC.

I noticed that too. Although may be at odds with his decision to keep rotating fresh bodies in to wear us down because it gave us a breather. But his time out pattern was actually normal for once.

Ultimately, UNC turned the ball over a lot down the stretch -- can't blame that on Roy. When they had to foul, Tyus had the ball almost every time. He and Grayson knocked 'em down.

[Ballboy1998]

I thought this was Okafor's best defensive performance of the season. As a team, Duke made the adjustment to aggressively front the post, which limited deep post touches. And when UNC did get the ball to the post, Okafor contested well.

2 points on 1-7 from Meeks (with that lone basket a tip-in) is a huge improvement over the first meeting.

GTHCGTH

[sagegrouse]

K said in the post-game PC that he did not want to do it, but Roy insisted (or something like thT).

They we're ripping UNC this morning on the Satellite college sports channel this morning -- "could you see Auburn giving Nick Saban a presentation before the Iron Bowl?!?"

Very nice of Roy. To do it, but weird. I really think Roy is gonna hang it up and wanted to do something nice for Mike (K also said in the PC that he and Roy are good friends, serve on boards together, etc).


I don't think Roy does this if K doesn't do the special presentation for Dean. It was appropriate for Dean; Coach K looked embarrassed and said in the presser that he did not want it to detract from the game itself. I don't mean to sound unappreciative, but it did seem a bit forced to me.


Football, which is a guilty pleasure for me, is a form of martial arts. You would never do either ceremony before a football game.

[JonnyWonder]

But the crazy part is how much the heel faithful are questioning it. They are hating it much more than we are scratching our heads about it. It was clearly intended as a thoughtful gesture but it was awkward at best. Kind of like Roy's awkward use of the four corners play to honor Dean.

Speaking of the Carolina faithful questioning the trophy, I can't help sharing this take on it from IC:


Do you get the feeling he threw it in a dumpster as he walked to the bus and thought geez this place has fallen fast from the top.

[DukeDevil]

Didn't think I saw this mentioned...but did anyone else get annoyed at how, after the managers surrounded Tyus with towels so as to block the view of what was going on, ESPN switched to the backboard camera to get a shot down into Tyus being evaluated??? I wanted to know how he was doing but it just felt...sleezy.

"and I'm super creepy Rob Lowe"

[wilko]

The award thing was "odd" but a really really nice gesture..

The difference is.... to be blunt..
We honored a respected foe. A man who had recently passed...
They honored the Living opponent they were about to square off with...

Again, I can appreciate the gesture for what it is...

but if any of the Heels fans want to look at as: "the hey thanks for kicking out butts again award" I wouldnt tell them they were wrong to look at it that way. Heck I'd encourage them to do it each game..

[TKG]

In my view, the ceremony- in both concept and execution - was insincere, shallow, poorly executed and smacked of me-too-ism.

[uh_no]

In my view, the ceremony- in both concept and execution - was insincere, shallow, poorly executed and smacked of me-too-ism.

the same view we criticized IC and UNC for having when we had the dean thing.

we're not IC. say "thank you" and move along.

[rsvman]

Fun game to watch, as usual. Very happy for the victory.

I just have one comment to make; a slightly different take on a topic that has been discussed a bit in this thread and by the talking heads (or disembodied voices) on the television, too, and that is the thing about Jah's not making a quick move after receiving the pass on or near the blocks.

Like everybody else, for a while I was looking at the tv and thinking to myself that he should be quicker, and make that move before the double-team had time to be organized. Then I really watched, and it occurred to me that maybe, just maybe, he was holding the ball a long time on PURPOSE, so that the double team WOULD come. Maybe Coach K told him to do that. For one thing, it's not as easy to score inside against them because they are long and big inside; for two, we have a lot of good shooters on the perimeter.

So, the point is, I'm thinking that maybe this was a deliberate strategy specifically for the game against UNC. Have Jahlil hold the ball until the double-team comes, and then pass to the open shooter for a three.

Obviously, this is just conjecture. But it seemed to me that things generally worked out pretty well when he got double-teamed, and that's when I thought that maybe there was a method to the madness.

[TKG]

the same view we criticized IC and UNC for having when we had the dean thing.

we're not IC. say "thank you" and move along.

Two completely different scenarios: one honoring a man who just passed. The one last night a feeble attempt at something....

[jgehtland]

In my view, the ceremony- in both concept and execution - was insincere, shallow, poorly executed and smacked of me-too-ism.

Have we arrived at the point where an opponent can honor our coach before a game and still be derided for it? Really? Roy Williams, for whatever reasons (it actually doesn't even matter what they were) chose to extend public congratulations to our coach before their own SENIOR NIGHT game. And he knew darn well that he was going to get crucified for it by his own fanbase. And we're going to criticize the man for that?

I say, "Thanks, Roy. Nice way to end the season on a generous note."

I don't care if he was doing it because he thinks K is a swell guy, or to thank him for the Dean tribute, or to distract our team from the game, or to be a me-too-ist, or because he wants to marry one of K's daughters. I just don't care. Nice gesture, put the trophy on the third shelf in the Hall of Honors, and move on.

[NYBri]

okafor won the tip by the way

play of the game!

[lotusland]

Fun game to watch, as usual. Very happy for the victory.

I just have one comment to make; a slightly different take on a topic that has been discussed a bit in this thread and by the talking heads (or disembodied voices) on the television, too, and that is the thing about Jah's not making a quick move after receiving the pass on or near the blocks.

Like everybody else, for a while I was looking at the tv and thinking to myself that he should be quicker, and make that move before the double-team had time to be organized. Then I really watched, and it occurred to me that maybe, just maybe, he was holding the ball a long time on PURPOSE, so that the double team WOULD come. Maybe Coach K told him to do that. For one thing, it's not as easy to score inside against them because they are long and big inside; for two, we have a lot of good shooters on the perimeter.

So, the point is, I'm thinking that maybe this was a deliberate strategy specifically for the game against UNC. Have Jahlil hold the ball until the double-team comes, and then pass to the open shooter for a three.

Obviously, this is just conjecture. But it seemed to me that things generally worked out pretty well when he got double-teamed, and that's when I thought that maybe there was a method to the madness.

That's certainly possible. Or maybe after the recent game (VA Tech?) in which he had multiple turnovers he decided or was coached watch where the double team is coming from before making his move.

[jgehtland]

Like everybody else, for a while I was looking at the tv and thinking to myself that he should be quicker, and make that move before the double-team had time to be organized. Then I really watched, and it occurred to me that maybe, just maybe, he was holding the ball a long time on PURPOSE, so that the double team WOULD come. Maybe Coach K told him to do that. For one thing, it's not as easy to score inside against them because they are long and big inside; for two, we have a lot of good shooters on the perimeter.

So, the point is, I'm thinking that maybe this was a deliberate strategy specifically for the game against UNC. Have Jahlil hold the ball until the double-team comes, and then pass to the open shooter for a three.

Obviously, this is just conjecture. But it seemed to me that things generally worked out pretty well when he got double-teamed, and that's when I thought that maybe there was a method to the madness.

This. A thousand times this. My wife and I came to the same conclusion during the game. He held the ball so abnormally long that this must have been the strategy. There was one play where Q missed a three, and Jah got the offensive board 4 feet from the hoop and instead of taking it back up, he kicked it out for another attempt at a three (which missed). And my wife said "K must have told everybody to turn this into a three-point shooting contest." The only other explanation I can come up with is K didn't want another twisted ankle and told Jah not to head to the hoop too much.

[lotusland]

Have we arrived at the point where an opponent can honor our coach before a game and still be derided for it? Really? Roy Williams, for whatever reasons (it actually doesn't even matter what they were) chose to extend public congratulations to our coach before their own SENIOR NIGHT game. And he knew darn well that he was going to get crucified for it by his own fanbase. And we're going to criticize the man for that?

I say, "Thanks, Roy. Nice way to end the season on a generous note."

I don't care if he was doing it because he thinks K is a swell guy, or to thank him for the Dean tribute, or to distract our team from the game, or to be a me-too-ist, or because he wants to marry one of K's daughters. I just don't care. Nice gesture, put the trophy on the third shelf in the Hall of Honors, and move on.

I insist on unlimited and unfettered freedom to mock Carolina and Ol Roy. I just don't feel I need a good reason:D.

[TKG]

Have we arrived at the point where an opponent can honor our coach before a game and still be derided for it? Really? Roy Williams, for whatever reasons (it actually doesn't even matter what they were) chose to extend public congratulations to our coach before their own SENIOR NIGHT game. And he knew darn well that he was going to get crucified for it by his own fanbase. And we're going to criticize the man for that?.

Too bad Roy Williams didn't display this newfound sense of character when he he funneling players to fake classes in order to keep them eligible. Too bad Roy Williams did not feel the need to "honor" Coach K over those years by competing on a level playing field. I respect the opinion s of those who disagree with me but forgive me if i place a little more emphasis on Roy's track record than I do on one night.

[uh_no]

Too bad Roy Williams didn't display this newfound sense of character when he he funneling players to fake classes in order to keep them eligible. Too bad Roy Williams did not feel the need to "honor" Coach K over those years by competing on a level playing field. I respect the opinion s of those who disagree with me but forgive me if i place a little more emphasis on Roy's track record than I do on one night.

who is arguing that roy is a saint and runs a good program? this is about one gesture before one game. bringing up any other transgressions is a straw man.

[bob blue devil]

does anybody have any insight into coach k's usage of timeouts in the second half? at least twice he called them after we made a basket, we were playing reasonably well, and it was about time for a media time out. i believe he might have done something similar in the first game with unc. was it an attempt to mitigate fatigue at the end of the game?

[TKG]

who is arguing that roy is a saint and runs a good program? this is about one gesture before one game. bringing up any other transgressions is a straw man.

Hardly a straw man but I'll play. We are to believe that in this one gesture before one game Roy was sincere and the gesture heartfelt; whenhis track record suggests he is ethically challenged. But somehow Roy was able to shed his character for one, brief moment, last night.

[Troublemaker]

Fun game to watch, as usual. Very happy for the victory.

I just have one comment to make; a slightly different take on a topic that has been discussed a bit in this thread and by the talking heads (or disembodied voices) on the television, too, and that is the thing about Jah's not making a quick move after receiving the pass on or near the blocks.

Like everybody else, for a while I was looking at the tv and thinking to myself that he should be quicker, and make that move before the double-team had time to be organized. Then I really watched, and it occurred to me that maybe, just maybe, he was holding the ball a long time on PURPOSE, so that the double team WOULD come. Maybe Coach K told him to do that. For one thing, it's not as easy to score inside against them because they are long and big inside; for two, we have a lot of good shooters on the perimeter.

So, the point is, I'm thinking that maybe this was a deliberate strategy specifically for the game against UNC. Have Jahlil hold the ball until the double-team comes, and then pass to the open shooter for a three.

Obviously, this is just conjecture. But it seemed to me that things generally worked out pretty well when he got double-teamed, and that's when I thought that maybe there was a method to the madness.

I love this theory and it's very possibly true.

Certainly, the quant coaches like Brad Stevens have realized that the perceived threat of the postup is more dangerous than the actual postup itself: http://grantland.com/the-triangle/how-efficient-is-a-post-up-play/

Nobody thinks of Coach K as a quant coach, but he seems to accidentally do a lot of things offensively that quants love. I'm sure the proponents of the Okafor Theory loved Jah's usage in this game.

[DukeDevil]

does anybody have any insight into coach k's usage of timeouts in the second half? at least twice he called them after we made a basket, we were playing reasonably well, and it was about time for a media time out. i believe he might have done something similar in the first game with unc. was it an attempt to mitigate fatigue at the end of the game?

I think it was on purpose, essentially giving the players his called time out as well as the media time out to rest. I don't know that it was specifically mentioned but it seemed quite calculated, and doing it several times created a trend.

[Henderson]

Hardly a straw man but I'll play. We are to believe that in this one gesture before one game Roy was sincere and the gesture heartfelt ***

Yeah.

[davekay1971]

I think it was on purpose, essentially giving the players his called time out as well as the media time out to rest. I don't know that it was specifically mentioned but it seemed quite calculated, and doing it several times created a trend.

I was forced to listen to the second half of the game on the Tar Heel radio network (I know, I was driving and couldn't find the Blue Devils network). I've recovered. But the Tar Heel network guys were very clear that K was timing his called time out right before the scheduled time outs to give his team with its short bench a rest. I suspect they were right, given that the Tar Heel crowd is obsessed with time out useage thanks to Ol' Roy's maddening habit of competing with himself to see how many of his time outs he can take home with him. It amused me that the play by play guy seemed wistfully admiring of K's time out strategy there.

[ChillinDuke]

It's pretty remarkable that we scored 84 points when we had a 10 minute stretch in the first half scoring only 3 points, all on FTs. Quinn hit a 3 with 12:52 left in the half - and then another one with 2:59 left in the half. In between we only had 3 FTs and missed 12 consecutive shots (6 of which were 3s). I thought UNC played excellent defense during that 10 minute stretch, and yet in the other 30 minutes of the game they gave up 81 points. It was a strange game in that respect.

Is this true? I may even rewatch the game to confirm. But taking you at your word, that is remarkable! 81 pts in 30 minutes?!?!?!

I was aware of our cold stretch, and that we 0-fer'd for a while. But those numbers make this win (and our production) incredibly impressive.

- Chillin

[OldPhiKap]

Hardly a straw man but I'll play. We are to believe that in this one gesture before one game Roy was sincere and the gesture heartfelt; whenhis track record suggests he is ethically challenged. But somehow Roy was able to shed his character for one, brief moment, last night.

I believe that it was absolutely heartfelt on Roy's part. I do not see any reason to think otherwise. And I do not see how it could be seen as self-serving, given the foreseeable grief he would get.

Roy did a nice thing. It is a weird way to do it, but I appreciate the gesture.

[NancyCarol]

I've figured it out. Roy is confusing his time outs with "roll over minutes" on his AT&T cell phone service. Shall we tell him they don't accumulate in the same way?

[billy]

This. A thousand times this. My wife and I came to the same conclusion during the game. He held the ball so abnormally long that this must have been the strategy. There was one play where Q missed a three, and Jah got the offensive board 4 feet from the hoop and instead of taking it back up, he kicked it out for another attempt at a three (which missed). And my wife said "K must have told everybody to turn this into a three-point shooting contest." The only other explanation I can come up with is K didn't want another twisted ankle and told Jah not to head to the hoop too much.

A couple of times he held the ball so long the double team came and left, leaving him back in one-on-one

[killerleft]

Have we arrived at the point where an opponent can honor our coach before a game and still be derided for it? Really? Roy Williams, for whatever reasons (it actually doesn't even matter what they were) chose to extend public congratulations to our coach before their own SENIOR NIGHT game. And he knew darn well that he was going to get crucified for it by his own fanbase. And we're going to criticize the man for that?

I say, "Thanks, Roy. Nice way to end the season on a generous note."

I don't care if he was doing it because he thinks K is a swell guy, or to thank him for the Dean tribute, or to distract our team from the game, or to be a me-too-ist, or because he wants to marry one of K's daughters. I just don't care. Nice gesture, put the trophy on the third shelf in the Hall of Honors, and move on.

This is the correct answer, in my opinion.

It was awkward. So what? It took 30 seconds, and then it was all over. I can't justify dissing someone who acknowledges my favorite coach has done something special.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

I appreciate you posting on here after the game but I disagree with your assessment about the heels playing soft. I thought they played pretty aggressively for the most part and Capel said at halftime that it was a very physical first half. I thought Carolina made some bone headed turnovers at the end but I think the obvious difference in Duke and UNC is the talent differential. I'm not sure that it really matters how "strong" their players play it's just really hard for them to overcome the talent gap. UNC has too many players with too many holes in their game to beat a team like Duke very often. For example, take a player like Tokoto. If he could shoot at all UNC would be exponentially better. He would be one of the best players in the nation and UNC would be so much tougher to guard. The lack of a point guard to play alongside Paige and the lack of a wing that can shoot are the two things UNC are missing in my opinion.

I guess we will have to disagree on how aggressive UNC was. I think they play hard, but not aggressive, if that makes sense.

I don't see it much beyond Paige, but Jackson tries and Johnson thinks he's aggressive.

This team reacts to the other team it faces, it doesn't take it to them very often, and they have the talent, if not the will, to do that.

Aggression would be showing more intensity than the other team. Getting all up in your space on defense, not settling for fade aways. Going strong with the ball and attacking the rim to draw a foul or finish.

Tokoto's shooting is not as bad as his stats might indicate. He actually has a nice stroke. His problem is weak intensity, poor shot selection, and an unwillingness to attack the rim and play through contact. A problem he shares with Meeks and to a lessor extent Johnson.

What these guys are not grasping is how intense their desire needs to be to get to a spot on the floor and dictate the play, not react to it.

That prime spot is usually the simi circle under the rim for a big, and inside a defenders shoulder off the dribble.

Here's some extreme examples...

Antawn Jamison and Hansbrough were the most intense post players I've seen at UNC fighting for low post position. Both took the prime real estate under the basket and fought to keep it. Jamison would get there by out running other bigs, and Hansbrough would hustle to a spot, get in a crouch, and he had the strength and toughness to hold it. How about Laettner's intensity? All three were NPOY's, btw.

How hard are we really seeing Meeks fight to set up under the rim? He has plenty of size, strength and talent, but he lacks the intensity really good players have..."want to" as Roy calls it.

How hard did Reddick use to work to get the ball...every play?

How hard do we see Tokoto cut off a screen, go to the rim, or get up in somebody's grill on defense?

He cruises...he coasts...he settles for jumpers...he reacts.

He doesn't set the pace, even though he has the talent.

So I see lack of intensity, toughness, aggressiveness, want to...whatever you want to call it as something this team has to address to get better.

....Among other things.

[roywhite]

Seems like good points, Wheat. Gotta think Ole Roy has failed to recruit these qualities, and/or hasn't developed them.

A simpler critique IMO is that this Heels team simply doesn't have good enough guard play. They're short on ball handling and outside shooting.

[Newton_14]

I guess we will have to disagree on how aggressive UNC was. I think they play hard, but not aggressive, if that makes sense.

I don't see it much beyond Paige, but Jackson tries and Johnson thinks he's aggressive.

This team reacts to the other team it faces, it doesn't take it to them very often, and they have the talent, if not the will, to do that.

Aggression would be showing more intensity than the other team. Getting all up in your space on defense, not settling for fade aways. Going strong with the ball and attacking the rim to draw a foul or finish.

Tokoto's shooting is not as bad as his stats might indicate. He actually has a nice stroke. His problem is weak intensity, poor shot selection, and an unwillingness to attack the rim and play through contact. A problem he shares with Meeks and to a lessor extent Johnson.

What these guys are not grasping is how intense their desire needs to be to get to a spot on the floor and dictate the play, not react to it.

That prime spot is usually the simi circle under the rim for a big, and inside a defenders shoulder off the dribble.

Here's some extreme examples...

Antawn Jamison and Hansbrough were the most intense post players I've seen at UNC fighting for low post position. Both took the prime real estate under the basket and fought to keep it. Jamison would get there by out running other bigs, and Hansbrough would hustle to a spot, get in a crouch, and he had the strength and toughness to hold it. How about Laettner's intensity? All three were NPOY's, btw.

How hard are we really seeing Meeks fight to set up under the rim? He has plenty of size, strength and talent, but he lacks the intensity really good players have..."want to" as Roy calls it.

How hard did Reddick use to work to get the ball...every play?

How hard do we see Tokoto cut off a screen, go to the rim, or get up in somebody's grill on defense?

He cruises...he coasts...he settles for jumpers...he reacts.

He doesn't set the pace, even though he has the talent.

So I see lack of intensity, toughness, aggressiveness, want to...whatever you want to call it as something this team has to address to get better.

....Among other things.
Since you are talking in terms of offense here, I actually agree with it. Except maybe a quibble about Tokoto shooting. Average mid-range shooter, (hits his fair share) but won't even attempt a 3 anymore. However, with those hops and that body, the dude should live at the free throw line and be impossible to stop going to the rim. He should dominate attacking the basket and how about a few of those reverse dunk attempts in traffic? He fears contact. On a side note related to my opening line here, I thought UNC was extremely physical on defense for large portions of the first half. That it coincided with Duke going basket-less for 10 minutes is no coincidence either. But the did not sustain it. Notice I said did not, vs could not. Defense should be this team's calling card. Roy should pull his old trick of holding a practice with no rims on the backboard to drive home the point. They should be a nightmare to score on. Meeks though, would not play in that scenario. It is obvious he hates playing defense. Dude just wants to score and be pretty. Like you said, he does not want it bad enough.

The other thing I have noticed with this UNC team is collective mindset. Their confidence in themselves rises and falls with the score each game. It was blatantly obvious during the game in Durham. When they were scoring at will and leading, confidence was oozing from them, but when buckets were hard to come by, they looked like they did not believe in each other at all. Same thing in the State game in Chapel Hill. I would not call that "team chemistry" per se, but it is a psychological team problem. You gotta believe in your brothers in arms or bad things will happen.

One thing Kshepinthehouse hit on though is key, in that UNC has no guard play at all besides Paige. That's why Tyus and Quinn killed them twice. College basketball is a guard's game. The cupboard at UNC is bare in that category.

[davekay1971]

. I think they play hard, but not aggressive, if that makes sense.
.

Wheat, this is a really, really good post. There is an amazing difference between guys who play hard, try hard, execute...and then those few players who are absolutely aggressive. It frequently is the difference between being really good and being great. How would Michael Jordan's career have gone if not for his intense desire to beat you, every time? He attacked, always. The same question could be asked of Larry Bird. Not many guys, no matter how talented they are, are natural aggressors. You're right - as much as I'd argue that Hansbrough got tremendous benefit from the way he was called (and not called), he made himself a much better player by being the aggressor - on offense, on the boards, etc. I'd actually suggest that Lawson was an even better aggressor for those Carolina teams - he dictated the offense and forced defenses to react to him. For Duke, Laettner and Redick were every game aggressors. Singler was, too. J Will would absolutely take over in spurts, when he simply would not be denied.

UNC does seem like one of those teams that is missing the one guy who will impose his will, both on the game, and on his team. Those guys are difference makers.

Part of that is intrinsic to players. Coaches can instill it, but they have to instill it through guys on the court. K has always tried to identify his leaders - the guys who will be extensions of his own aggression and intensity and will to win on the court. There have been Duke teams where that player has not materialized - teams I have thought of as being "too nice". Perhaps the better way to put it would be "inadequately aggressive." Fortunately for Duke, one of the hallmarks of our program's consistent success is that K has generally been adept at finding those leaders and getting them to project his aggressiveness on the court.

[Duke76]

I guess we will have to disagree on how aggressive UNC was. I think they play hard, but not aggressive, if that makes sense.

I don't see it much beyond Paige, but Jackson tries and Johnson thinks he's aggressive.

This team reacts to the other team it faces, it doesn't take it to them very often, and they have the talent, if not the will, to do that.

Aggression would be showing more intensity than the other team. Getting all up in your space on defense, not settling for fade aways. Going strong with the ball and attacking the rim to draw a foul or finish.

Tokoto's shooting is not as bad as his stats might indicate. He actually has a nice stroke. His problem is weak intensity, poor shot selection, and an unwillingness to attack the rim and play through contact. A problem he shares with Meeks and to a lessor extent Johnson.

What these guys are not grasping is how intense their desire needs to be to get to a spot on the floor and dictate the play, not react to it.

That prime spot is usually the simi circle under the rim for a big, and inside a defenders shoulder off the dribble.

Here's some extreme examples...

Antawn Jamison and Hansbrough were the most intense post players I've seen at UNC fighting for low post position. Both took the prime real estate under the basket and fought to keep it. Jamison would get there by out running other bigs, and Hansbrough would hustle to a spot, get in a crouch, and he had the strength and toughness to hold it. How about Laettner's intensity? All three were NPOY's, btw.

How hard are we really seeing Meeks fight to set up under the rim? He has plenty of size, strength and talent, but he lacks the intensity really good players have..."want to" as Roy calls it.

How hard did Reddick use to work to get the ball...every play?

How hard do we see Tokoto cut off a screen, go to the rim, or get up in somebody's grill on defense?

He cruises...he coasts...he settles for jumpers...he reacts.

He doesn't set the pace, even though he has the talent.

So I see lack of intensity, toughness, aggressiveness, want to...whatever you want to call it as something this team has to address to get better.

....Among other things.

wheat I hope you catch a giant tarpon this week. haven't disagreed with a thing you have said in this thread about either team...for all the grief the opposing side gave JJ or Tyler and others on both side you mentioned they all had a number of qualities that made them what they were not the least of which was desire to never,,,,never,,,never take a play off

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Seems like good points, Wheat. Gotta think Ole Roy has failed to recruit these qualities, and/or hasn't developed them.

It's both, for various reasons... It's a tough job and it's fair to criticize him...along with the players who don't step up and address their weaknesses.

I'm from the opinion that it's just a perfect storm of players with type B personalities...along with the less than developed physical traits from this particular group of kids that are at the core issue.... more than Roy's perceived lack of coaching.

[mr. synellinden]

Is this true? I may even rewatch the game to confirm. But taking you at your word, that is remarkable! 81 pts in 30 minutes?!?!?!

I was aware of our cold stretch, and that we 0-fer'd for a while. But those numbers make this win (and our production) incredibly impressive.

- Chillin

Yes. You can see the play by play here:

http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/playbyplay?gameId=400588022

[Wander]

Wheat, this is a really, really good post. There is an amazing difference between guys who play hard, try hard, execute...and then those few players who are absolutely aggressive. It frequently is the difference between being really good and being great. How would Michael Jordan's career have gone if not for his intense desire to beat you, every time? He attacked, always. The same question could be asked of Larry Bird. Not many guys, no matter how talented they are, are natural aggressors. You're right - as much as I'd argue that Hansbrough got tremendous benefit from the way he was called (and not called), he made himself a much better player by being the aggressor - on offense, on the boards, etc. I'd actually suggest that Lawson was an even better aggressor for those Carolina teams - he dictated the offense and forced defenses to react to him. For Duke, Laettner and Redick were every game aggressors. Singler was, too. J Will would absolutely take over in spurts, when he simply would not be denied.

Listen to the guys you're naming! You've included the best basketball player of all time, another guy who is in the top 10 of the best basketball players of all time, two other guys who are probably the best ACC players of the past 20 years, and that doesn't even include your National Player of the Year, Final Four MVP, or guy who started in four Final Fours. This is an insane standard.

The fact that everyone here is naming guys like JJ Redick and Tyler Hansbrough instead of, say, Tyler Thornton and Bobby Frasor should be a big clue to the flaw in the argument.

Do people really believe that the primary difference between Jason Williams and Marcus Paige is effort and aggression? Here are the main reasons why Duke beat UNC last night:

1. Tyus Jones and Quinn Cook are far superior to UNC's backcourt.
2. Coach K outcoached Roy Williams by calling for the Amile Jefferson press, and Roy failed to adjust.
3. Okafor is good enough to be a huge plus on the court even when he's not putting up huge numbers by being the focus of the defense.

Here are the bigger picture reasons why Duke is better than UNC this season:

1. Duke has inherently more talent.
2. Duke has a better coach.
3. Duke's players fit together as a team much better than UNC's players do - it doesn't matter how hard UNC's guys play, they still don't have a good 3 point shooter outside of Paige.

Effort and intensity absolutely matter. I'm not saying they don't. But, aside from agreeing with Newton_14 about Meeks being soft, I don't think that's UNC's problem. Take Tokoto as an example - want to know why he doesn't drive more, get to the rim, get fouled, and instead settles for jump shots? It's because every coach in the ACC knows he sucks at shooting, and all his defenders sag off of him. He's a good player, but that's the worst weakness he could have for this particular UNC team. Now, I'm willing to talk about arguments involving effort in the offseason and working hard there to develop a jump shot, but that's different.

tl; dr: Duke has better players than UNC

[El_Diablo]

One comment about Justice's so-called kick.

Although I don't approve of what he did and very surprised he didn't get called for a foul, as one who has spent over 25 years in martial arts, it was more of a push used to gain advantage and distance from the opponent than to cause any harm. nonetheless, he needs to get his head on straight and stop making those bone-head moves. This is hard to do in the heat of the moment especially when he plays at the level of intensity in which he does - yet he needs to control it. He's a fighter and lives on the edge.

Love that to be honest - unfortunately he falls off the edge occasionally.

He was called for the foul.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Listen to the guys you're naming! You've included the best basketball player of all time, another guy who is in the top 10 of the best basketball players of all time, two other guys who are probably the best ACC players of the past 20 years, and that doesn't even include your National Player of the Year, Final Four MVP, or guy who started in four Final Fours. This is an insane standard.

The fact that everyone here is naming guys like JJ Redick and Tyler Hansbrough instead of, say, Tyler Thornton and Bobby Frasor should be a big clue to the flaw in the argument.

Do people really believe that the primary difference between Jason Williams and Marcus Paige is effort and aggression? Here are the main reasons why Duke beat UNC last night:

1. Tyus Jones and Quinn Cook are far superior to UNC's backcourt.
2. Coach K outcoached Roy Williams by calling for the Amile Jefferson press, and Roy failed to adjust.
3. Okafor is good enough to be a huge plus on the court even when he's not putting up huge numbers by being the focus of the defense.

Here are the bigger picture reasons why Duke is better than UNC this season:

1. Duke has inherently more talent.
2. Duke has a better coach.
3. Duke's players fit together as a team much better than UNC's players do - it doesn't matter how hard UNC's guys play, they still don't have a good 3 point shooter outside of Paige.

Effort and intensity absolutely matter. I'm not saying they don't. But, aside from agreeing with Newton_14 about Meeks being soft, I don't think that's UNC's problem. Take Tokoto as an example - want to know why he doesn't drive more, get to the rim, get fouled, and instead settles for jump shots? It's because every coach in the ACC knows he sucks at shooting, and all his defenders sag off of him. He's a good player, but that's the worst weakness he could have for this particular UNC team. Now, I'm willing to talk about arguments involving effort in the offseason and working hard there to develop a jump shot, but that's different.

tl; dr: Duke has better players than UNC

You should note that I prefaced my remarks that those comparisons were extreme just to make the point..

UNC absolutely could stand better shooting. But their parts fit together very well, and they are capable of playing very well. They have plenty of talent. They have one of the highest team offensive ratings in the country...without the outside shooting.

Roy and UNC beat Duke every way but the scoreboard at Cameron. One made FT and I think you're singing a different tune. Duke was fortunate to win that game. Unforced TO's and missed FT's did UNC in.

It's not like Duke is so much more talented, they are just playing better.

[uh_no]

It's not like Duke is so much more talented, they are just playing better.

Duke has two lottery picks, and another first rounder...in this year's draft. UNC may not have a single first rounder on their team, of any year. Paige may get there, but he's projected at early second round next year.

Further, all of quinn, tyus, and jah have an offensive rating higher than anyone on north carolina's team.

I don't think there's any reasonable metric where UNC is as talented than duke.

That said, UNC does have some decently talented players, and they're not as bad as DBR would have you believe. You're spot on they ought to have won the game in cameron, and for quite a while it looked like they would win in DESC as well. they have a darn good offense, that has put up 112 and 108 on our "vaunted" defense in the two games this year, and their defense isn't anything to slouch at. They're inconsistent, though, and susceptible to certain styles of play (see: NCSU v UNC). look for that to change next year, though, as pretty much everyone ought to be back.

[kshepinthehouse]

You should note that I prefaced my remarks that those comparisons were extreme just to make the point..

UNC absolutely could stand better shooting. But their parts fit together very well, and they are capable of playing very well. They have plenty of talent. They have one of the highest team offensive ratings in the country...without the outside shooting.

Roy and UNC beat Duke every way but the scoreboard at Cameron. One made FT and I think you're singing a different tune. Duke was fortunate to win that game. Unforced TO's and missed FT's did UNC in.

It's not like Duke is so much more talented, they are just playing better.

1. Duke is much more talented than UNC hence the reason why Duke has 3 losses and top 3 in the country and UNC has 10 losses and barely hanging on to a top 25 spot. Duke also has a lot more quality wins off the top of my head.

2. In the last game Duke held double digit leads twice looking like they were going to run away with the game. I actually though Duke looked like the more talented team in that game as well because twice I thought they were going to blow UNC out, it just looked like Duke lost their mojo during the middle of the game and Duke just happens to have freshmen where UNC has more upperclassmen. Duke's freshmen are much more talented than UNC's upperclassmen. I wouldn't even trade Tyus Jones for Marcus Paige.

3. You have to factor in match ups in basketball as well. For example, just because a team loses to another team it doesn't mean the winning team is better. That team may have just had a better matchup or was better at taking advantage of match ups. I don't think UNC is anywhere near as talented but I do feel they are a bad matchup with Duke because of their size. Had they done a better job of getting the ball inside last night the game may have been a different story.

4. I'm going to go back to my original assessment that UNC has some players who can do some good things but they have too many holes in their game. If you take a look at Winslow and Tyus they can do just about anything. I don't think they have any glaring weaknesses. UNC has too many players who do. If Carolina was more talented I think they wouldn't have lost so many games. Pinson, Hicks, Berry, etc. all these guys were supposed to be good recruits who just don't cut it when they step on the floor.

[MarkD83]

1. Duke is much more talented than UNC hence the reason why Duke has 3 losses and top 3 in the country and UNC has 10 losses and barely hanging on to a top 25 spot. Duke also has a lot more quality wins off the top of my head.

Or Duke has equal or inferior talent and a much better coach.

[Duvall]

Or Duke has equal or inferior talent and a much better coach.

I think you would find it hard to locate an NBA GM that would agree with the first part of that. Yes, even Kupchak.

[OldPhiKap]

Listen to the guys you're naming! You've included the best basketball player of all time, another guy who is in the top 10 of the best basketball players of all time, two other guys who are probably the best ACC players of the past 20 years, and that doesn't even include your National Player of the Year, Final Four MVP, or guy who started in four Final Fours. This is an insane standard.

The fact that everyone here is naming guys like JJ Redick and Tyler Hansbrough instead of, say, Tyler Thornton and Bobby Frasor should be a big clue to the flaw in the argument.

Do people really believe that the primary difference between Jason Williams and Marcus Paige is effort and aggression? Here are the main reasons why Duke beat UNC last night:

1. Tyus Jones and Quinn Cook are far superior to UNC's backcourt.
2. Coach K outcoached Roy Williams by calling for the Amile Jefferson press, and Roy failed to adjust.
3. Okafor is good enough to be a huge plus on the court even when he's not putting up huge numbers by being the focus of the defense.

Here are the bigger picture reasons why Duke is better than UNC this season:

1. Duke has inherently more talent.
2. Duke has a better coach.
3. Duke's players fit together as a team much better than UNC's players do - it doesn't matter how hard UNC's guys play, they still don't have a good 3 point shooter outside of Paige.

Effort and intensity absolutely matter. I'm not saying they don't. But, aside from agreeing with Newton_14 about Meeks being soft, I don't think that's UNC's problem. Take Tokoto as an example - want to know why he doesn't drive more, get to the rim, get fouled, and instead settles for jump shots? It's because every coach in the ACC knows he sucks at shooting, and all his defenders sag off of him. He's a good player, but that's the worst weakness he could have for this particular UNC team. Now, I'm willing to talk about arguments involving effort in the offseason and working hard there to develop a jump shot, but that's different.

tl; dr: Duke has better players than UNC

Winner winner chicken dinner.

[OldPhiKap]

You should note that I prefaced my remarks that those comparisons were extreme just to make the point..

UNC absolutely could stand better shooting. But their parts fit together very well, and they are capable of playing very well. They have plenty of talent. They have one of the highest team offensive ratings in the country...without the outside shooting.

Roy and UNC beat Duke every way but the scoreboard at Cameron. One made FT and I think you're singing a different tune. Duke was fortunate to win that game. Unforced TO's and missed FT's did UNC in.

It's not like Duke is so much more talented, they are just playing better.

And I kissed Katy Perry, every way but actually doing it.

[davekay1971]

Listen to the guys you're naming! You've included the best basketball player of all time, another guy who is in the top 10 of the best basketball players of all time, two other guys who are probably the best ACC players of the past 20 years, and that doesn't even include your National Player of the Year, Final Four MVP, or guy who started in four Final Fours. This is an insane standard.

The fact that everyone here is naming guys like JJ Redick and Tyler Hansbrough instead of, say, Tyler Thornton and Bobby Frasor should be a big clue to the flaw in the argument.

Do people really believe that the primary difference between Jason Williams and Marcus Paige is effort and aggression? Here are the main reasons why Duke beat UNC last night:

1. Tyus Jones and Quinn Cook are far superior to UNC's backcourt.
2. Coach K outcoached Roy Williams by calling for the Amile Jefferson press, and Roy failed to adjust.
3. Okafor is good enough to be a huge plus on the court even when he's not putting up huge numbers by being the focus of the defense.

Here are the bigger picture reasons why Duke is better than UNC this season:

1. Duke has inherently more talent.
2. Duke has a better coach.
3. Duke's players fit together as a team much better than UNC's players do - it doesn't matter how hard UNC's guys play, they still don't have a good 3 point shooter outside of Paige.

Effort and intensity absolutely matter. I'm not saying they don't. But, aside from agreeing with Newton_14 about Meeks being soft, I don't think that's UNC's problem. Take Tokoto as an example - want to know why he doesn't drive more, get to the rim, get fouled, and instead settles for jump shots? It's because every coach in the ACC knows he sucks at shooting, and all his defenders sag off of him. He's a good player, but that's the worst weakness he could have for this particular UNC team. Now, I'm willing to talk about arguments involving effort in the offseason and working hard there to develop a jump shot, but that's different.

tl; dr: Duke has better players than UNC

Wow. You've really assumed a tremendous amount about my post and taken me to task for your assumptions.

I made a point that aggressiveness frequently separates very good players from great players. And that's about the only point I made. The fact that the players I mentioned are some of the greats only underscores the fact that aggressiveness, a highest level competitive drive, is part of what makes those guys great.

I don't think I ever implied that what separated Marcus Paige from J Will was only aggressiveness. I'm not sure, at all, where you got that, but it wasn't from my post.

But you did a very nice job knocking down the straw man that you made, so there's that.

[CameronBlue]

And I kissed Katy Perry, every way but actually doing it.

And I sporked you, every way but actually doing it, cause uh, DBR, uh...won't let me do it right now.

[PackMan97]

I would like to thank Duke, Coach K and all the fans that made Saturday night so enjoyable! After getting this athletic season off to a shaky start with that "game" involving the pigskin, you guys have redeemed yourselves with round ball. I will not say a bad thing about Duke basketball or Coach K until next year(*).

* Assuming you guys don't do something stupid like beating NC State if you meet in the post-season.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I guess we will have to disagree on how aggressive UNC was. I think they play hard, but not aggressive, if that makes sense.

I don't see it much beyond Paige, but Jackson tries and Johnson thinks he's aggressive.

This team reacts to the other team it faces, it doesn't take it to them very often, and they have the talent, if not the will, to do that.

Aggression would be showing more intensity than the other team. Getting all up in your space on defense, not settling for fade aways. Going strong with the ball and attacking the rim to draw a foul or finish.

Tokoto's shooting is not as bad as his stats might indicate. He actually has a nice stroke. His problem is weak intensity, poor shot selection, and an unwillingness to attack the rim and play through contact. A problem he shares with Meeks and to a lessor extent Johnson.

What these guys are not grasping is how intense their desire needs to be to get to a spot on the floor and dictate the play, not react to it.

That prime spot is usually the simi circle under the rim for a big, and inside a defenders shoulder off the dribble.

Here's some extreme examples...

Antawn Jamison and Hansbrough were the most intense post players I've seen at UNC fighting for low post position. Both took the prime real estate under the basket and fought to keep it. Jamison would get there by out running other bigs, and Hansbrough would hustle to a spot, get in a crouch, and he had the strength and toughness to hold it. How about Laettner's intensity? All three were NPOY's, btw.

How hard are we really seeing Meeks fight to set up under the rim? He has plenty of size, strength and talent, but he lacks the intensity really good players have..."want to" as Roy calls it.

How hard did Reddick use to work to get the ball...every play?

How hard do we see Tokoto cut off a screen, go to the rim, or get up in somebody's grill on defense?

He cruises...he coasts...he settles for jumpers...he reacts.

He doesn't set the pace, even though he has the talent.

So I see lack of intensity, toughness, aggressiveness, want to...whatever you want to call it as something this team has to address to get better.

....Among other things.

I think by referencing hall of fame players to contrast with this year's Tar Heel roster, you did yourself a disservice. But, I agree with your premise.

Outside of Paige and Tokoto (sometimes) UNC seems to lack guys that are eager to play aggressive in tight situations. Duke is the opposite - in a tight game, do you see Tyus/Cook/Jah/Justise/Grayson ever NOT taking it hard to the rack, popping a gutsy jumper, diving for a loose ball? We have the most aggressive and tough Duke team in recent memory, which is a large part of why we seem to have won the close ones this year.

I also think UNC's roster has a mess of talent, but lacks leadership beyond Paige. If you need your PG to direct every player, your team can't react in big moments.

PS - the only Tar Heel I would "trade" for would be Meeks. Would be really curious to see what Coach K would do with such a unique and talented player.

[Devilwin]

The UNC games have been dissected with some brilliance here, nothing much I can add. But I will say this. Our free throw shooting by our bigs worries me.
In the UNC game saturday, Matt gives the ball to Jah, he promptly misses both attempts. I am hoping and praying this don't cost us down the road. Even Justice isn't that good from the stripe. In my opinion, we have got improve on this in the post season or it will eventually come back to haunt us...

[revmel53]

Starting with last first: the PA announcer said that UNC appreciated the way Duke and K honored Coach Smith at Duke and (so) UNC wanted to honor K for his milestone. Smacked of tit for tat... Lame in my opinion. K was put in a no win situation. How could he look really grateful?

Our free throw shooting WILL come back to bite us. And I really don't understand it. Both Jah and Justice are good shooters. Neither has to dunk the ball (a la Robert Brickey or Billy King - or even Josh McRoberts, who didn't have a touch until he hit the Bobcats) to get it to go down. It's concentration, and Jah doesn't look like he really cares...

There's no way to hide our Bigs when games really matter. Sooner or later we are going to be praying for Jah to hit a free throw in order for us to win a game.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Starting with last first: the PA announcer said that UNC appreciated the way Duke and K honored Coach Smith at Duke and (so) UNC wanted to honor K for his milestone. Smacked of tit for tat... Lame in my opinion. K was put in a no win situation. How could he look really grateful?

Our free throw shooting WILL come back to bite us. And I really don't understand it. Both Jah and Justice are good shooters. Neither has to dunk the ball (a la Robert Brickey or Billy King - or even Josh McRoberts, who didn't have a touch until he hit the Bobcats) to get it to go down. It's concentration, and Jah doesn't look like he really cares...

There's no way to hide our Bigs when games really matter. Sooner or later we are going to be praying for Jah to hit a free throw in order for us to win a game.

You really think Jah doesn't care about hitting free throws? Look, I agree with your premise that bad FT shooting is likely to haunt us later this month, and I will attribute lots of it to mind-set, but saying that Jahlil doesn't care is borderline offensive to the big guy.

Yes, you could say you see something in his face when he steps to the line, but I would call it "anxiety" or "fear" - evidence of caring very much.

If he doesn't care about FTs, what does that suggest? Please tell me, because I don't want to put words in your mouth but I know what it suggests to me.

[mpj96]

Yes, you could say you see something in his face when he steps to the line, but I would call it "anxiety" or "fear" - evidence of caring very much.

Agree strongly here. Jah appears to care quite a bit about his free throw shooting. I could see how frustrated he was at the end of the UNC game missing the front end of the 1 and 1. He has got a great stroke but it just doesn't seem to fall like it should from the ft line.

Jah and Justise keep a strong face. That shouldn't be confused with a lack of conviction, determination or passion.

[Channing]

Agree strongly here. Jah appears to care quite a bit about his free throw shooting. I could see how frustrated he was at the end of the UNC game missing the front end of the 1 and 1. He has got a great stroke but it just doesn't seem to fall like it should from the ft line.

Jah and Justise keep a strong face. That shouldn't be confused with a lack of conviction, determination or passion.

didn't MP2 start singing a nursery rhyme or something when he went to the line so that he would think about something other than the shot? He actually became a fairly reliable FT shooter later in his career. Usually I wouldn't advocate a midseason change of routine for someone, but Okafor can't really get much worse...

edit* - can't get much worse at FTs. He is a manchild during the game, and redefines low post play from a big man with his ball handling abilities and touch.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

I think by referencing hall of fame players to contrast with this year's Tar Heel roster, you did yourself a disservice. But, I agree with your premise.


OK then....I'd like to see them play with the energy and toughness of Montrezl Harrell.

[MarkD83]

I think you would find it hard to locate an NBA GM that would agree with the first part of that. Yes, even Kupchak.

I know. I just wanted to tweak UNC fans a little.

[revmel53]

Yes, you could say you see something in his face when he steps to the line, but I would call it "anxiety" or "fear" - evidence of caring very much.

If he doesn't care about FTs, what does that suggest? Please tell me, because I don't want to put words in your mouth but I know what it suggests to me.



I didn't say he didn't care. I hope he cares a lot. He just doesn't look like it gets to him that he is "0fer" at the free throw line. IMO it's not anxiety, or fear, on his face... It's nothing. And though he is a great player, when there is that big a liability in a person's game, it makes an incredible difference in outcomes - especially in games that matter. No disrespect. Just stating the obvious...

[CDu]

You should note that I prefaced my remarks that those comparisons were extreme just to make the point..

UNC absolutely could stand better shooting. But their parts fit together very well, and they are capable of playing very well. They have plenty of talent. They have one of the highest team offensive ratings in the country...without the outside shooting.

Roy and UNC beat Duke every way but the scoreboard at Cameron. One made FT and I think you're singing a different tune. Duke was fortunate to win that game. Unforced TO's and missed FT's did UNC in.

It's not like Duke is so much more talented, they are just playing better.

I disagree. Duke is WAY more talented this year. And it isn't remotely close. Yes, Duke should have lost the game in Cameron, but it isn't because UNC has as much (or even close to as much) talent. It is because Duke didn't play with the effort necessary to win for much of the game, while UNC did. But you know what? When it came down the stretch, Duke's talent took over as they finally got their heads out of their (you-know-whats) and UNC had no answer. Even still, UNC gritted their way to a chance to win in both regulation and in overtime. In last night's game, Duke came more focused on defense and more disciplined on offense (not allowing easy transition opportunities off bad shots and turnovers), and they did a better job of not letting UNC out-hustle them. And when you take away the hustle points from UNC, they are in trouble. In fact, UNC had one of their absolute best shooting performances of the season, and that is the only reason the game was close. Had they shot like they have much of this season, it would have been a blowout.

UNC has actually gritted their way to a very good season in spite of their lack in skill players. That is a testament to the effort that they are playing with every night. They have one guard who can create offense with any consistency. They have one wing (aside from the previous guard) who can create offense with any consistency, and that wing can't shoot outside of 15 feet to save his life. They have two very capable but very inconsistent scoring threats inside (one who lacks the endurance and quickness, the other who lacks the body strength). In spite of these limitations, they have managed to maintain a pretty good offensive efficiency in large part because they run at every chance and they dominate the offensive boards. Those are signs of toughness and effort.

It isn't toughness and effort that are lacking for UNC; it is skill. Not that UNC isn't skilled. Just that they aren't as skilled as the other elite teams. And as such they have to rely more on out-efforting those teams. That's a harder way to win games. And it is why they haven't fared very well against the better teams.

[CDu]

OK then....I'd like to see them play with the energy and toughness of Montrezl Harrell.

And I'd like to have a million dollars. But you do realize you are talking about one of the toughest and most energetic players in the entire country, right? It's ludicrous to expect your entire team to play as hard and as tough as one of the toughest, most energetic players around. There is a reason why he is exceptional. It is certainly true that UNC would be far better if everyone played as hard and as tough as Harrell does. That's true of every team though. And there aren't any teams that can say that their players all play as tough and as hard as Harrell. In fact, nearly all teams can't point to a single player on their team that plays that way.

As I said elsewhere, UNC has played with a lot of toughness this year. They are lacking in enough skilled players this year, and as such they have HAD to play tougher than most teams. And they've done so. It is just that they have so little margin for error against good teams that they HAVE to play even harder than their opponents (at least in the big games; against lesser foes they can still out-talent them).

UNC has been very impressive in playing up to the level of their opponents in many of the big games. That is a testament to the amount of effort and toughness that they have played with. They are sort of like the Rose-less Bulls, where they have grinded their way to a better result than they should have gotten based on their talent. They pound the boards and they run at any opportunity. But against the big boys, the talent difference has often been too much to overcome on effort alone.

[FerryFor50]

And I'd like to have a million dollars. But you do realize you are talking about one of the toughest and most energetic players in the entire country, right? It's ludicrous to expect your entire team to play as hard and as tough as one of the toughest, most energetic players around. There is a reason why he is exceptional. It is certainly true that UNC would be far better if everyone played as hard and as tough as Harrell does. That's true of every team though. And there aren't any teams that can say that their players all play as tough and as hard as Harrell. In fact, nearly all teams can't point to a single player on their team that plays that way.

As I said elsewhere, UNC has played with a lot of toughness this year. They are lacking in enough skilled players this year, and as such they have HAD to play tougher than most teams. And they've done so. It is just that they have so little margin for error against good teams that they HAVE to play even harder than their opponents (at least in the big games; against lesser foes they can still out-talent them).

UNC has been very impressive in playing up to the level of their opponents in many of the big games. That is a testament to the amount of effort and toughness that they have played with. They are sort of like the Rose-less Bulls, where they have grinded their way to a better result than they should have gotten based on their talent. They pound the boards and they run at any opportunity. But against the big boys, the talent difference has often been too much to overcome on effort alone.

Agree with both of your points (Duke is more talented, UNC isn't lacking for effort).

One other thing about Harrell - he's not just "motor." He's an elite talent, far beyond what UNC has, which is why he owned UNC's front line in their win (22 pts, 15 boards).

UNC plays with a ton of effort, which gets them wins in games they would lose with lesser effort.

[roywhite]

As I said elsewhere, UNC has played with a lot of toughness this year. They are lacking in enough skilled players this year, and as such they have HAD to play tougher than most teams. And they've done so. It is just that they have so little margin for error against good teams that they HAVE to play even harder than their opponents (at least in the big games; against lesser foes they can still out-talent them).

UNC has been very impressive in playing up to the level of their opponents in many of the big games. That is a testament to the amount of effort and toughness that they have played with. They are sort of like the Rose-less Bulls, where they have grinded their way to a better result than they should have gotten based on their talent. They pound the boards and they run at any opportunity. But against the big boys, the talent difference has often been too much to overcome on effort alone.

Are you under-stating their talent level, at least based on credentials coming out of high school?

There are 6 McD All-Americans on this team -- Pinson, Berry, Justin Jackson, Hicks, Meek, and Paige.

Some RSCI composite ratings:
Pinson #15
Berry 25
Jackson 9
Hicks 14
Meeks 56
Britt 93
Paige 20
Brice Johnson 40
Tokoto 57
James 58

Not as many highly-ranked players as Duke, certainly, but is there another ACC team with comparable or better high school rankings?

[CDu]

Agree with both of your points (Duke is more talented, UNC isn't lacking for effort).

One other thing about Harrell - he's not just "motor." He's an elite talent, far beyond what UNC has, which is why he owned UNC's front line in their win (22 pts, 15 boards).

UNC plays with a ton of effort, which gets them wins in games they would lose with lesser effort.

Yeah, I agree about Harrell with one clarification. Harrell is WAY more gifted athletically than anybody UNC has inside. He has James' strength combined with Tokoto's athleticism combined with Johnson's length. But I'd say that both Johnson and Meeks are more skilled. Harrell is pretty raw offensively, but his athletic gifts combined with his awesome motor and toughness get the job done for him most of the time. In composite, athleticism is a big part of talent, so your statement is absolutely true. But in Harrell's case, his talent is almost exclusively tied to his athleticism and not his skills.

[FerryFor50]

Yeah, I agree about Harrell with one clarification. Harrell is WAY more gifted athletically than anybody UNC has inside. He has James' strength combined with Tokoto's athleticism combined with Johnson's length. But I'd say that both Johnson and Meeks are more skilled. Harrell is pretty raw offensively, but his athletic gifts combined with his awesome motor and toughness get the job done for him most of the time. In composite, athleticism is a big part of talent, so your statement is absolutely true. But in Harrell's case, his talent is almost exclusively tied to his athleticism and not his skills.

I dunno. Have you seen him lately?

He's hitting mid-range jumpers and even threes. You see Kennedy Meeks doing that on a regular basis?

Harrell has improved mightily as the season has progressed.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/montrezl-harrell-1.html

I'd say Johnson has more mid-range touch, but Harrell is a beast with skills.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Yes, you could say you see something in his face when he steps to the line, but I would call it "anxiety" or "fear" - evidence of caring very much.

If he doesn't care about FTs, what does that suggest? Please tell me, because I don't want to put words in your mouth but I know what it suggests to me.



I didn't say he didn't care. I hope he cares a lot. He just doesn't look like it gets to him that he is "0fer" at the free throw line. IMO it's not anxiety, or fear, on his face... It's nothing. And though he is a great player, when there is that big a liability in a person's game, it makes an incredible difference in outcomes - especially in games that matter. No disrespect. Just stating the obvious...

Well, you said he doesn't look like e cares. Slight difference I suppose.

If you were saying he truly didn't care about the outcome of his free throws (strongly disagree - also disagree that he "looks like" he doesn't care) then one could infer that he is ambivalent to the outcome of games. I also strongly disagree with that.

Anyway, you asked, so there it is. As I see it, he cares so much that he psychs himself out. Quite the opposite.

[CDu]

Are you under-stating their talent level, at least based on credentials coming out of high school?

There are 6 McD All-Americans on this team -- Pinson, Berry, Justin Jackson, Hicks, Meek, and Paige.

Some RSCI composite ratings:
Pinson #15
Berry 25
Jackson 9
Hicks 14
Meeks 56
Britt 93
Paige 20
Brice Johnson 40
Tokoto 57
James 58

Not as many highly-ranked players as Duke, certainly, but is there another ACC team with comparable or better high school rankings?

Ratings are highly subjective. For example, James was highly overrated coming out of high school based solely on being a BIIIIIIG guy (and probably somewhat based on being recruited by UNC). I don't think anyone would say now that he was really the 58th best player in his recruiting class. I mean, he was rated almost as highly in his class as Kennedy Meeks was in his class, and clearly Meeks is WAY better. Pinson and Hicks were the classic cases of guys who were athletically ahead of their peers throughout much of their high school careers, but haven't yet developed the skills to be ready at the college level (where a lot more teams have the athleticism to match up). They'll probably get really good by the time they are juniors, but they aren't close yet.

But really, the ratings are just all over the map sometimes. For comparison, does anyone really think that Pinson is as good a player as Winslow (#13) or better than D'Angelo Russell (#16)? Does anyone really think that Ryan Kelly was a better, more ready player as a freshman than Mason Plumlee? That Taylor King was better than DaJuan Blair?

[CDu]

I dunno. Have you seen him lately?

He's hitting mid-range jumpers and even threes. You see Kennedy Meeks doing that on a regular basis?

Harrell has improved mightily as the season has progressed.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/montrezl-harrell-1.html

I'd say Johnson has more mid-range touch, but Harrell is a beast with skills.

He's shooting 24% on 3s and 58.5% from the line. He had a great game against UVa where he did hit a 3, and went 5-6 from the line. But prior to that he had shot 16-35 from the line in his previous 5 games. Johnson and Meeks are both far better shooters than Harrell. Harrell has potential, but right now he is a lot more beast than skill.

[roywhite]

Not as many highly-ranked players as Duke, certainly, but is there another ACC team with comparable or better high school rankings?


Ratings are highly subjective. For example, James was highly overrated coming out of high school based solely on being a BIIIIIIG guy (and probably somewhat based on being recruited by UNC). I don't think anyone would say now that he was really the 58th best player in his recruiting class. I mean, he was rated almost as highly in his class as Kennedy Meeks was in his class, and clearly Meeks is WAY better. Pinson and Hicks were the classic cases of guys who were athletically ahead of their peers throughout much of their high school careers, but haven't yet developed the skills to be ready at the college level (where a lot more teams have the athleticism to match up). They'll probably get really good by the time they are juniors, but they aren't close yet.

But really, the ratings are just all over the map sometimes. For comparison, does anyone really think that Pinson is as good a player as Winslow (#13) or better than D'Angelo Russell (#16)? Does anyone really think that Ryan Kelly was a better, more ready player as a freshman than Mason Plumlee? That Taylor King was better than DaJuan Blair?

So the answer to my question is.....?

UNC is not getting some of the kids Duke and Kentucky are getting, but they continue to recruit highly ranked kids, yet have double-digit losses each of the last 3 years. Talent is part of the story, but not all.

[kmspeaks]

I didn't say he didn't care. I hope he cares a lot. He just doesn't look like it gets to him that he is "0fer" at the free throw line. IMO it's not anxiety, or fear, on his face... It's nothing. And though he is a great player, when there is that big a liability in a person's game, it makes an incredible difference in outcomes - especially in games that matter. No disrespect. Just stating the obvious...

Where and how were you trained to read facial expressions through a TV screen that makes it obvious, even though the camera is focused on their face for just a few seconds, what is going through a player's mind? Because as a teacher and coach of teenagers I would love to have that skill. You can say Jah's free throw shooting needs to improve, you can say you think it may cost us a game in either of the upcoming tournaments and you probably won't find many people here who will disagree with either of those. However, until and unless he calls you up after the game and says he doesn't care about his "0fer" at the line let's not put words in his mouth ok?

[jimsumner]

The implication that Okafor doesn't care whether he makes free throws is beyond bizarre.

If anything, he worries too much about that facet of his game.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

OK then....I'd like to see them play with the energy and toughness of Montrezl Harrell.

Thanks for snapping at the guy who was agreeing with you and not bothering to reply to the last of my post.

[CDu]

So the answer to my question is.....?

UNC is not getting some of the kids Duke and Kentucky are getting, but they continue to recruit highly ranked kids, yet have double-digit losses each of the last 3 years. Talent is part of the story, but not all.

As I said, high school rankings are all over the map with regards to accurately assessing talent and skill. UNC has a bunch of guys that the high school recruiting gurus whiffed on. They are not a very good measure of a player's ability at the college level. So while it is certainly true that UNC has recruited more highly-rated high school players than almost anybody else, my point in my previous response is that that statement does not correlate to the statement that UNC has more talent/ability than almost anybody else.

For example, compare them to UVa. UVa has guys like Brogdon, Gill, and Perrantes who are (currently) way more talented/skilled than guys like Pinson, Hicks, and Berry (three of UNC's most highly-recruited players). But were not nearly as highly rated coming out of high school.

Talent (or in most of UNC's players' cases) skill is most certainly a huge factor in why they are not having the same success as the other elites. High school rankings just aren't as great a measure of talent/ability at the college level as some may think. Talent/ability isn't the only issue with UNC, but it is one of the biggest.

[UrinalCake]

The Winslow karate kick was bizarre because he had used a great first step to get by his man and had a clean look at the basket. Jackson wasn't really close enough to contest the shot, and the points would have been big as it would have cut into the lead. Aside from all that, it was a very impressive display of athleticism to hang in the air, extend his leg, and still make the layup. Maybe he was trying to show the NBA scouts how much body control he has 8-). At any rate, I'm glad they did call the fouls in both situations because if they hadn't then we'd be hearing all about how Duke gets away with bloody murder and that's the only reason we win. I mean we're hearing those things anyways so imagine how much worse it would be.

How about that turnover on UNC's last real shot at coming back? I think they were down five with under a minute after Oak missed the front end of a one and one, and UNC fumbles a handoff, allowing Tyus to grab the ball. That has to be the worst turnover I have ever seen with a game on the line. Even worse than when the guy threw the ball right to Jordan.

[DST Fan]

That has to be the worst turnover I have ever seen with a game on the line. Even worse than when the guy threw the ball right to Jordan.

I think you probably mean James Worthy. Fred Brown threw the pass.

[Duvall]

As I said, high school rankings are all over the map with regards to accurately assessing talent and skill. UNC has a bunch of guys that the high school recruiting gurus whiffed on. They are not a very good measure of a player's ability at the college level. So while it is certainly true that UNC has recruited more highly-rated high school players than almost anybody else, my point in my previous response is that that statement does not correlate to the statement that UNC has more talent/ability than almost anybody else.

For example, compare them to UVa. UVa has guys like Brogdon, Gill, and Perrantes who are (currently) way more talented/skilled than guys like Pinson, Hicks, and Berry (three of UNC's most highly-recruited players). But were not nearly as highly rated coming out of high school.

Talent (or in most of UNC's players' cases) skill is most certainly a huge factor in why they are not having the same success as the other elites. High school rankings just aren't as great a measure of talent/ability at the college level as some may think. Talent/ability isn't the only issue with UNC, but it is one of the biggest.

It's also worth noting that UNC is winning more in the last few years than any ACC program other than Duke and Virginia. They just haven't been on top.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Thanks for snapping at the guy who was agreeing with you and not bothering to reply to the last of my post.

I just got in... My apologies if that came out snippy, that was not my intent...you were saying basically I was not reasonable using hall of fame players in my example, so as I was heading out the door this am I wrote that quick reply with Montrezl the first player I thought of who plays with the energy and passion all the time that I'd like to see from every UNC player...pipe dream or not.

As for the rest of your post, I'd agree Paige is the only leader at this point.

And if Duke could trade for a player, it should be Johnson to go along side Okafor...his ability to run the floor, length and feathery jumper would be the perfect fit with him inside.

Roy is developing Meeks very well. He's getting him in shape and the offense plays to his strengths. He's way better than last year.

The work that still needs to get done is make him understand he needs to play with much more intensity.

[OZ]

That has to be the worst turnover I have ever seen with a game on the line. Even worse than when the guy threw the ball right to Jordan.

It helped. But I will always have nightmares of an inbounds pass intercepted by UNC's Bobby Jones. At home, with the score tied and 6 seconds to go, Jones intercepted an inbounds pass and went the distance for a game winning layup. Unc was highly ranked and it would have been a wonderful upset. I still awake screaming "Noooooooo!!!!" And it has been 41 years (I believe). Then again, I may have dreamed the whole scenario.

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

Good news, we could possibly play UNC 2 more times if Jerry Palms seedings stay as they are. Everyone on here says he is the best at predicting where teams will be placed in the Tournament. Currently he Has Duke as the Number one in the south with UNC as our 5 seed!!!! I don't wish for this at all by the way, forcing a team to play a team they already beat twice and could have to play a third time already seems unfair to the team that won. Is that even legal as far as regional placements go?

[Trey21]

I just got in... My apologies if that came out snippy, that was not my intent...you were saying basically I was not reasonable using hall of fame players in my example, so as I was heading out the door this am I wrote that quick reply with Montrezl the first player I thought of who plays with the energy and passion all the time that I'd like to see from every UNC player...pipe dream or not.

As for the rest of your post, I'd agree Paige is the only leader at this point.

And if Duke could trade for a player, it should be Johnson to go along side Okafor...his ability to run the floor, length and feathery jumper would be the perfect fit with him inside.

Roy is developing Meeks very well. He's getting him in shape and the offense plays to his strengths. He's way better than last year.

The work that still needs to get done is make him understand he needs to play with much more intensity.

Good post.

Johnson has been UNC's best player this year in my opinion, but Paige is still obviously their leader. He just hasn't really taken it up the next level consistently this year.

Meeks is a toss up to me. Yeah he has improved, and he could develop into a great college player (maybe poor man's Sean May), but I'm not sure it will ever happen. Regardless of this year's outcome, Paige and Johnson should be First-team All-Acc players next year. I think Meeks, Tokoto and Jackson could be all potentially be 3rd team (best case/scary scenario for UNC). Still untapped/unfilled potential has been the knock on UNC for a couple years.

[Saratoga2]

What I can see from looking up the current rules on Flagrant Fouls is as follows:

F1 Non-excessive (as determined by the refs) contact above the shoulders. Penalty is 2FTs and the ball. Can find nothing about a player getting more than one in a game

F2 Excessive contact above the shoulders. Penalty is 2 FT's, the ball and the offending player is suspended for the rest of the game. There was a carryover suspension in the past but that has apparently been done away with as of 2013.

Would assume these are examples of flagrant fouls. Something like Chris Paul's punch in the nuts a while back and other fouls with intent to cause serious pain or injury would also qualfy as Flagrant 2's.

I wondered whether Justise could have been suspended from the game had he picked up another F! against UNC. I can't see that he would be from the rules. He did foul out of course which was a similar result.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

I disagree. Duke is WAY more talented this year. And it isn't remotely close. Yes, Duke should have lost the game in Cameron, but it isn't because UNC has as much (or even close to as much) talent. It is because Duke didn't play with the effort necessary to win for much of the game, while UNC did. But you know what? When it came down the stretch, Duke's talent took over as they finally got their heads out of their (you-know-whats) and UNC had no answer. Even still, UNC gritted their way to a chance to win in both regulation and in overtime. In last night's game, Duke came more focused on defense and more disciplined on offense (not allowing easy transition opportunities off bad shots and turnovers), and they did a better job of not letting UNC out-hustle them. And when you take away the hustle points from UNC, they are in trouble. In fact, UNC had one of their absolute best shooting performances of the season, and that is the only reason the game was close. Had they shot like they have much of this season, it would have been a blowout.

UNC has actually gritted their way to a very good season in spite of their lack in skill players. That is a testament to the effort that they are playing with every night. They have one guard who can creat offense with any consistency. They have one wing (aside from the previous guard) who can create offense with any consistency, and that wing can't shoot outside of 15 feet to save his life. They have two very capable but very inconsistent scoring threats inside (one who lacks the endurance and quickness, the other who lacks the body strength). In spite of these limitations, they have managed to maintain a pretty good offensive efficiency in large part because they run at every chance and they dominate the offensive boards. Those are signs of toughness and effort.

It isn't toughness and effort that are lacking for UNC; it is skill. Not that UNC isn't skilled. Just that they aren't as skilled as the other elite teams. And as such they have to rely more on out-efforting those teams. That's a harder way to win games. And it is why they haven't fared very well against the better teams.

In that first game, Duke's "grit" kept them in position for the win when UNC folded like a cheap lawn chair late in the game. Unforced TO's and missed FT's are the only reason why Duke even got the chance to win it in OT....it was one of those games where UNC beat themselves;) Duke didnt take that one, UNC gave it away.

They maintain good offensive efficiency by being well coached and disciplined.

It's an unselfish team. They run plays, set screens, and move the ball to the right guy in the right spot when they see a match up advantage.

As for the rest of your thoughts...if you think UNC lacks elite level talent and is relying only on "out-efforting" teams to get their wins...we'll just have to disagree.

[Henderson]

Can we at least finally agree that Joel Berry and Nate Britt are mediocre ACC guards?

[jv001]

Good post.

Johnson has been UNC's best player this year in my opinion, but Paige is still obviously their leader. He just hasn't really taken it up the next level consistently this year. Meeks is a toss up to me. Yeah he has improved, and he could develop into a great college player (maybe poor man's Sean May), but I'm not sure it will ever happen. Regardless of this year's outcome, Paige and Johnson should be First-team All-Acc players next year. I think Meeks, Tokoto and Jackson could be all potentially be 3rd team (best case/scary scenario for UNC). Still untapped/unfilled potential has been the knock on UNC for a couple years.

I believe Paige being injured has really hurt his performance this season. I don't know much about his injury, but it could affect his being able to practice at full speed. Just like Seth's injury kept him from being able to go full speed in practice. I'm hoping he's fully recovered for next season, but I still hope they lose every game. Can't take them seriously until they pay the piper. Fess up like a man and take your punishment cheaters. GoDuke!

[Bob Green]

Can we at least finally agree that Joel Berry and Nate Britt are mediocre ACC guards?

On Nate Britt, yes. It is too early for Joel Berry. He is a freshman who has been hurt for part of the season. He might end up being a mediocre ACC guard, but the jury is still out. Berry might end up being All ACC in a future season.

[FerryFor50]

I believe Paige being injured has really hurt his performance this season. I don't know much about his injury, but it could affect his being able to practice at full speed. Just like Seth's injury kept him from being able to go full speed in practice. I'm hoping he's fully recovered for next season, but I still hope they lose every game. Can't take them seriously until they pay the piper. Fess up like a man and take your punishment cheaters. GoDuke!

I'd rather they go 29-2 (with two losses to Duke) and then the NCAA bans them from postseason play for 4 years.

[Duvall]

In that first game, Duke's "grit" kept them in position for the win when UNC folded like a cheap lawn chair late in the game. Unforced TO's and missed FT's are the only reason why Duke even got the chance to win it in OT....it was one of those games where UNC beat themselves;) Duke didnt take that one, UNC gave it away.

Of course, if you look back at the first 38 minutes of the game, Duke was giving the game away with even more unforced turnovers and missed free throws. And it's folly to say that Tyus Jones didn't take that game back.

[FerryFor50]

Of course, if you look back at the first 38 minutes of the game, Duke was giving the game away with even more unforced turnovers and missed free throws. And it's folly to say that Tyus Jones didn't take that game back.

I thought Duke gave the game away when they gave up their double digit lead?

Does anyone actually win games on their own anymore?

[CDu]

On Nate Britt, yes. It is too early for Joel Berry. He is a freshman who has been hurt for part of the season. He might end up being a mediocre ACC guard, but the jury is still out. Berry might end up being All ACC in a future season.

Totally agree. Way too early to tell with Berry. Could be another Quinn Cook type development.

[CDu]

In that first game, Duke's "grit" kept them in position for the win when UNC folded like a cheap lawn chair late in the game. Unforced TO's and missed FT's are the only reason why Duke even got the chance to win it in OT....it was one of those games where UNC beat themselves;) Duke didnt take that one, UNC gave it away.

They maintain good offensive efficiency by being well coached and disciplined.

It's an unselfish team. They run plays, set screens, and move the ball to the right guy in the right spot when they see a match up advantage.

As for the rest of your thoughts...if you think UNC lacks elite level talent and is relying only on "out-efforting" teams to get their wins...we'll just have to disagree.

Looks like we will have to disagree... on pretty much all of this post. With one correction to what appears to by a misinterpretation of my thoughts: UNC can out-talent many teams. But to keep up with the big boys, they have to do it mostly on out-efforting them, because they are less talented than the big boys (that being Duke, UVa, Kentucky, etc).

[Wheat/"/"/"]

And it's folly to say that Tyus Jones didn't take that game back.

I didn't say that.

Tyus absolutely won it for Duke.

What I'm saying is he wouldn't have had the opportunity to be the hero if Meeks doesn't throw it away or if Britt makes his free throw those last few seconds.

At any rate, none of that was worth re-hashing. Duke won and UNC didn't.

We were discussing talent level, and the comment was meant to challenge the post that UNC's talent level was
no where near Duke's....evidently it was.

[jv001]

Looks like we will have to disagree... on pretty much all of this post. With one correction: they can out-talent many teams. But to keep up with the big boys, they have to do it mostly on out-efforting them, because they are less talented than the big boys (that being Duke, UVa, Kentucky, etc).

I believe some of the uncheat players have not lived up to their press clippings coming out of high school. Did the recruiting experts have them rated too highly or have they just not improved under Roy's coaching? I think old Roy is really feeling the pressure from the mess that he help create and also from the cheat fan base. GoDuke!

[CDu]

I didn't say that.

Tyus absolutely won it for Duke.

What I'm saying is he wouldn't have had the opportunity to be the hero if Meeks doesn't throw it away or if Britt makes his free throw those last few seconds.

At any rate, none of that was worth re-hashing. Duke won and UNC didn't.

We were discussing talent level, and the comment was meant to challenge the post that UNC's talent level was
no where near Duke's....evidently it was.

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that the results of a game (or 2) perfectly indicate the relative talent of two teams. Do you think Miami is a talented as Duke (or clearly more talented)? Surely you don't. Sometimes a team plays harder/smarter/better than the more talented team on a given night. That was the case in Durham against Miami, and that was the case (to a lesser degree and in a game with a closer talent differential) for much of the night in Durham against UNC. Thankfully for the good guys, Duke woke up and UNC choked down the stretch. :)

In the game in Chapel Hill, Duke corrected its effort and focus problem from game 1, and the result was way fewer offensive rebounds and fast break points for UNC. To UNC's credit, they had one of their best shooting games of the year. That is the only reason it was at all close on Saturday.

[Duvall]

We were discussing talent level, and the comment was meant to challenge the post that UNC's talent level was
no where near Duke's....evidently it was.

Almost beating a team is not conclusive evidence that the two teams have comparable talent levels. Virginia Tech *almost* beat Duke. Wake Forest *almost* beat Virginia. Strange things happen when teenagers bounce a plastic ball - like Tyus Jones turning the ball over six times.