All-ACC (opinions)

[mike88]

As we head into the last weekend of the regular season, here are my picks for All-ACC:

1st team
okafor (POY)
grant
brogdon (DPOY)
christmas
hanlan

2nd team
rozier
lacey
paige
anderson
cook

3rd team
t jones
winslow
perrantes
harrell
connaughton

[Olympic Fan]

Just one note ... it's going to be tough for Malcolm Brogdon to win DPOY. He was my choice too -- until I saw that Virginia nominated Darius Atkins.

That's going to split the Virginia vote and may open the door for Miami's Jekeri to slip in.

Oh, and I will be VERY surprised if Hanlan makes first tem

[MCFinARL]

Just one note ... it's going to be tough for Malcolm Brogdon to win DPOY. He was my choice too -- until I saw that Virginia nominated Darius Atkins.

That's going to split the Virginia vote and may open the door for Miami's Jekeri to slip in.

Oh, and I will be VERY surprised if Hanlan makes first tem

You might be right about Hanlan. Based on his stats, he probably should--but it hurts that his team has done so poorly.

[Olympic Fan]

You might be right about Hanlan. Based on his stats, he probably should--but it hurts that his team has done so poorly.

Dean Smith once told me: Somebody's got to score, even for the worst team.

We were talking about Butch Zatezalo, who led the ACC in scoring in 1968 (for a Clemson team that was 3-11 in the ACC) and in 1969 (for a Clemson team that finished 2-12). Zatezalo just missed the first All-ACC team both years. On the whole, voters have agreed with Dean -- reward the best players on the best teams. Recently, Terrell Stoglin of Maryland led the ACC in scoring in 2012 (with numbers very much like Hanlan's) and missed the first.

There have been exceptions -- Len Bias won ACC POY in 1986 on a sixth place Maryland team; Eric Green won the writers' POY in 2013 (the coaches picked Shane Larkin) on a 4-14 VPI team.

Green not only led the league in scoring, he was second in assists and second in field goal percentage/ He averaged 25.0 ppg -- significantly better than Hanlan.

I'd be surprised if Hanlan outpolls guys like Quinn Cook, Terry Rozier and even Montrezl Harrell.

[CDu]

My list (and having 15 teams in conference makes this REALLY tough):

1st Team:
Jahlil Okafor
Jerian Grant
Rakeem Christmas
Terry Rozier
Malcolm Brogdon/Olivier Hanlan

2nd Team:
Hanlan/Brogdon
Quinn Cook
Montrezl Harrell
Trevor Lacey
Tyus Jones

3rd Team:
Marcus Paige
Devin Thomas
Jamel Artis
Pat Connaughton
Michael Gbinije

Honorable Mention:
Justise Winslow
Tonye Jekiri
Xavier Rathan-Mayes
Cody Miller-McIntyre
Brice Johnson

[CDu]

Dean Smith once told me: Somebody's got to score, even for the worst team.

We were talking about Butch Zatezalo, who led the ACC in scoring in 1968 (for a Clemson team that was 3-11 in the ACC) and in 1969 (for a Clemson team that finished 2-12). Zatezalo just missed the first All-ACC team both years. On the whole, voters have agreed with Dean -- reward the best players on the best teams. Recently, Terrell Stoglin of Maryland led the ACC in scoring in 2012 (with numbers very much like Hanlan's) and missed the first.

There have been exceptions -- Len Bias won ACC POY in 1986 on a sixth place Maryland team; Eric Green won the writers' POY in 2013 (the coaches picked Shane Larkin) on a 4-14 VPI team.

Green not only led the league in scoring, he was second in assists and second in field goal percentage/ He averaged 25.0 ppg -- significantly better than Hanlan.

I'd be surprised if Hanlan outpolls guys like Quinn Cook, Terry Rozier and even Montrezl Harrell.

There is a difference between being a volume scorer on a bad team and being an efficient scorer on a bad team. Hanlan, despite being the focus of every opponent's defense, is 6th in FG% (a phenomenal 48.0% for a guard) and 1st in 3pt %. This is not a case of a guy just chucking it up on a bad team. This is a lot like Victor Green (not AS good, but still very very good).

[vick]

My picks right now--and this is what I think should happen, not what I think will happen:

First team
Okafor (POY)
Grant
Christmas
Brogdon (DPOY)
Harrell

Second team
Hanlan
Cook
Winslow
Paige
Rozier

Third team
Johnson (UNC)
Gill
Artis
Lacey
Jekiri

Anderson's obviously a wildcard--I don't generally think you should vote for someone who missed nearly half the season, though there's certainly no rule about it and reasonable minds can differ. I fully expect Gill to be shafted despite his very important work for the conference's best team. Rozier...man, he has just been pretty bad over the past month, even second feels aggressive (and I would have had him first at the midpoint). Also I expect some howls about Johnson...but just look at his numbers on a per-minute basis--they're near-Okafor territory (if not quite there). Obviously Okafor is more valuable because he does it for much greater minutes, but that should tell you something about how good he's been.

[flyingdutchdevil]

My list (and having 15 teams in conference makes this REALLY tough):

1st Team:
Jahlil Okafor
Jerian Grant
Rakeem Christmas
Terry Rozier
Malcolm Brogdon/Olivier Hanlan

2nd Team:
Hanlan/Brogdon
Quinn Cook
Montrezl Harrell
Trevor Lacey
Tyus Jones

3rd Team:
Marcus Paige
Devin Thomas
Jamel Artis
Pat Connaughton
Michael Gbinije

Honorable Mention:
Justise Winslow
Tonye Jekiri
Xavier Rathan-Mayes
Cody Miller-McIntyre
Brice Johnson

Interesting list. My problem - and it may happen when the real list comes out - is that there is no guarantee of a UVa player being first team. If this happens, that will be a travesty. In all likelihood, UVa will win the ACC Reg season by a whopping two games. With only 1 loss. And yet, this team doesn't have a bona fide star (which is what makes them so good in the first place).

That's why I think Brogdon should be 1st ACC All-American, but his stats don't really show that.

I hope Brogdon gets 1st team. Someone on UVa clearly deserves the praise.

[juise]

This is a lot like Victor Green.

Erick Green? ;)

I am curious about why there are 10 first teamers on the women's side and whether we should expect something similar on the men's side at some point.

[Wander]

I think the love you guys are showing for Paige is based on theory and not what he's actually done. I get that this may be due to injury, but he's regressed a lot from last year. I do think UNC deserves representation on this list - but Brice Johnson should be the highest guy.

[ChillinDuke]

Just one note ... it's going to be tough for Malcolm Brogdon to win DPOY. He was my choice too -- until I saw that Virginia nominated Darius Atkins.

That's going to split the Virginia vote and may open the door for Miami's Jekeri to slip in.

Oh, and I will be VERY surprised if Hanlan makes first tem

And if Brogdon doesn't win DPOY then I can't imagine he makes 1st Team. Stats don't back it up.

With Hanlan, I disagree. He is leading the conference in scoring by a comfortable margin. Plus 4+ boards and 4+ assists and over a steal per game. If you drop Brogdon off the 1st Team, can you move two guys ahead of Hanlan to round it out? I can't.

Big Jah, Grant, and Christmas are locks for 1st Team. I'd have Hanlan. Then it gets tougher - do you go with Paige (likely will get plenty of votes from the UNC contingent despite a worse year than last year)? What about Harrell (averaging nearly a double-double; 15.6 and 9.3)? Rozier (at 17.2 ppg)? And don't look now but Quinn has shot up the scoring charts and now sits at 15.8 (good for 7th) / 3.3 boards / 2.9 dimes with an A:T > 2 - and he's got the senior thing going for him - which is nice.

I'd probably give the nod to Harrell.

Which makes my 2nd Team Paige, Cook, and Rozier before I get into the sticky part again. Brogdon is in the discussion, Anderson should be but his injury complicates things, Lacey sits at 16.0 ppg (6th), and what do you do with Jekiri? If he wins DPOY to go along with his impressive, league-leading 10.5 boards I'd probably have to add him here. And of course, Tyus and Justise hover in this discussion as well. Brice Johnson, Devin Thomas, Miller-McIntyre, Silent G, Jamel Artis, Angel Rodriguez are some of the names you hear mentioned a lot in conference play but their stats don't really stack up for 2nd Team, IMO.

I'd probably round out with Lacey and Jekiri.

3rd team is really messy. Do I dare go?

Of course I do.

UVA is completely unrepresented to this point in my post. Which is almost understandable given their real "team" dynamic - no stud stars. That said, you gotta have someone. I'd probably put Anderson here given his lack of games - deserving of 2nd Team probably but knocked to 3rd. Brogdon compares well with Anderson stat-wise; not sure how much of that is inflated due to Anderson's loss - but them's the stats. I'd include him as well. Perrantes may be a vital cog to that team, but he just doesn't stat well next to these other guys - he's off my list. So I'm left with 3 spots for Tyus, Justise, the guys mentioned above, Connaughton, probably Rathan-Mayes deserves a shout as well as McClellan on Miami who probably stats better than Rodriguez.

Johnson (12.5 / 7.9) and Connaughton (12.8 / 7.9) both stat better than Justise (12.4 / 5.8 / 2.0), I'd say. Or at least it's competitive. While Tyus is second in the league in assists by a wide margin. Artis stats nicely at 13.7 / 6.0 / 2.2. So does Miller-McIntyre at 13.9 / 4.9 / 4.1.

I'd have to put Tyus here. Probably have to put Artis - he gets a lot of pub as Pitt's "guy". The last spot is tough. I think I go Connaughton due to a good FT % and a very, very good 44% 3PT. But I could see Johnson getting in (again, UNC contingent).

So, there you have it - in general order of strength/security:

1st: Okafor (POY), Grant, Christmas, Hanlan, Harrell
2nd: Paige, Cook, Rozier, Jekiri (DPOY), Lacey
3rd: Anderson, Brogdon, Tyus, Connaughton, Artis

And, yes, I created the verb stat.

- Chillin

[CDu]

Interesting list. My problem - and it may happen when the real list comes out - is that there is no guarantee of a UVa player being first team. If this happens, that will be a travesty. In all likelihood, UVa will win the ACC Reg season by a whopping two games. With only 1 loss. And yet, this team doesn't have a bona fide star (which is what makes them so good in the first place).

That's why I think Brogdon should be 1st ACC All-American, but his stats don't really show that.

I hope Brogdon gets 1st team. Someone on UVa clearly deserves the praise.

I don't see a problem with the top team not having a first team guy. There is no reason that a team game has to have great individual players. For example, the Pistons won the title about a decade ago, but didn't have anyone really worthy of first-team All-NBA (and had just one, fairly questionable, member of the 2nd-Team All-NBA, and no 3rd-Team members). Sometimes the whole team is greater than the sum of its parts. It is actually why I'd vote Tony Bennett as Coach of the Year (by a wide margin).

UVa would have had two guys make the 2nd Team if Anderson had stayed healthy. And Brogdon might make 1st Team. But what made UVa a great team this year was not their individual players' talents but rather the way the team played so well together.


Erick Green? ;)

Yes, Erick Green. Not sure where my brain was! :confused:

[Duvall]

Dean Smith once told me: Somebody's got to score, even for the worst team.

We were talking about Butch Zatezalo, who led the ACC in scoring in 1968 (for a Clemson team that was 3-11 in the ACC) and in 1969 (for a Clemson team that finished 2-12). Zatezalo just missed the first All-ACC team both years. On the whole, voters have agreed with Dean -- reward the best players on the best teams. Recently, Terrell Stoglin of Maryland led the ACC in scoring in 2012 (with numbers very much like Hanlan's) and missed the first.

Hanlan's stats don't really resemble Stoglin's very much - Stoglin was an inefficient chucker in a way that Hanlan simply isn't. And ACSMA has embraced team mediocrity in postseason voting with the last two POY selections, I doubt this voting pool with punish Hanlan much for the fact that his team has been dire all year. I would, but I don't think the voters will.

[jimsumner]

I don't see a problem with the top team not having a first team guy. There is no reason that a team game has to have great individual players. For example, the Pistons won the title about a decade ago, but didn't have anyone really worthy of first-team All-NBA (and had just one, fairly questionable, member of the 2nd-Team All-NBA, and no 3rd-Team members). Sometimes the whole team is greater than the sum of its parts. It is actually why I'd vote Tony Bennett as Coach of the Year (by a wide margin).

UVa would have had two guys make the 2nd Team if Anderson had stayed healthy. And Brogdon might make 1st Team. But what made UVa a great team this year was not their individual players' talents but rather the way the team played so well together.



Yes, Erick Green. Not sure where my brain was! :confused:

But the NBA had 30 teams when the Pistons won the title. The ACC won't have 30 teams for four or five years. :)

[vick]

I don't see a problem with the top team not having a first team guy. There is no reason that a team game has to have great individual players. For example, the Pistons won the title about a decade ago, but didn't have anyone really worthy of first-team All-NBA (and had just one, fairly questionable, member of the 2nd-Team All-NBA, and no 3rd-Team members). Sometimes the whole team is greater than the sum of its parts. It is actually why I'd vote Tony Bennett as Coach of the Year (by a wide margin).

I get it, and mostly agree that individual awards are individual and team are team. But a list with 4 Duke people and 1 UVa like some people are writing, especially after last year (dominating the conference and no first team), seems out of whack. Defense should count for something here, right? Frankly it'll be to UVa fans' considerable credit if they don't go all Gary Williams at that point.

[CDu]

I think the love you guys are showing for Paige is based on theory and not what he's actually done. I get that this may be due to injury, but he's regressed a lot from last year. I do think UNC deserves representation on this list - but Brice Johnson should be the highest guy.

I had a hard time with this. Johnson definitely has the better numbers in conference play, but Paige is so much the heart of the team (in spite of his down year). That's why I put him on the 3rd Team and Johnson as Honorable Mention.

Also, a lot of folks seem to be using the full-season stats, but I believe we're only supposed to use the stats in conference play. That bumps down Anderson a LOT (because he has missed about half the conference season AND his in-conference stats aren't all that special.

I will be honest: I could easily see Brogdon falling to the 2nd Team, but no way do I see him on the 3rd Team. I can't imagine he is not in the top six vote-getters. His count stats aren't wildly impressive this year (though they are deflated due to UVa's pace) as they were last year, but he's still the best player on the best team. While that shouldn't automatically get him 1st Team, it will keep him off the 3rd Team in my opinion. And even still, his stats per 100 possessions are pretty good.

[Wander]

His count stats aren't wildly impressive this year (though they are deflated due to UVa's pace) as they were last year, but he's still the best player on the best team. While that shouldn't automatically get him 1st Team, it will keep him off the 3rd Team in my opinion. And even still, his stats per 100 possessions are pretty good.

I don't really buy this, but might as well note that kenpom's pace-adjusted player of the year rankings have two UVA guys (Brogdon and Gill) in the top ten nationally.

[CDu]

I get it, and mostly agree that individual awards are individual and team are team. But a list with 4 Duke people and 1 UVa like some people are writing, especially after last year (dominating the conference and no first team), seems out of whack. Defense should count for something here, right? Frankly it'll be to UVa fans' considerable credit if they don't go all Gary Williams at that point.

The problem is that these are individual awards and UVa's defense is generally a team trait. There is nothing noteworthy about Tobey, Gill, Nolte, Perrantes, etc. defensively that makes them stand out over others in the conference. But put them in UVa's system? The result is great.

That's why Bennett is the Coach of the Year. He can take guys with otherwise non-noteworthy abilities and make them a great defensive unit. And in doing so, he wins more games than his players' talents should suggest. That doesn't (in my opinion) mean that those guys should get bumped up in individual awards; it just means Bennett is a phenomenal coach.

Now, if we only saw 1 UVa player on the list AND Bennett didn't win coach of the year, that would be absurd.

[CDu]

I don't really buy this, but might as well note that kenpom's pace-adjusted player of the year rankings have two UVA guys (Brogdon and Gill) in the top ten nationally.

That Pomeroy has Gill in the top-10 of the standings should probably say a lot about the validity of that measure. Gill is a nice player, and he might be in the discussion for honorable mention All-ACC, but he is not among the top-10 (or probably even top-100) players nationally.

[brevity]

I'm not sure if I should share this, but I saw an All-ACC voter in a coffee shop today. He was writing some stuff on a scratch sheet of paper, and then consulted it while typing on his laptop. He threw out the piece of paper when he left, and I recovered it.

Below is an exact transcription. Misspellings are his.

All-ACC Team

FIRST TEAM
Marcus Page, UNC (POY)
Kemmedy Meeks, UNC (DPOY)
Jarian Grant, Noter Dame
Rakim Christmas, Syracuse
Brice Jackson, UNC

SECOND TEAM
Malcom Brogdon, Virginia
P.J. Tokoto, UNC
Oliver Hanlon, Boston Colluge
Montreal Harrell, Louisville
Justin Johnson, UNC

THIRD TEAM
Anthony Gil, Virginia
Patt Connaughton, Noter Dame
Trevor Lacy, NC State
Cody Miller-MacEntire, Wake Forrest
Tyler Hansbruh, UNC

It may seem shocking -- both the player choices and the spelling choices -- but for an All-ACC voter, this looks pretty fair. (I just hope he has a good editor.)

[juise]

That Pomeroy has Gill in the top-10 of the standings should probably say a lot about the validity of that measure. Gill is a nice player, and he might be in the discussion for honorable mention All-ACC, but he is not among the top-10 (or probably even top-100) players nationally.

To your point earlier, those rankings are probably more a reflection of thejob Bennett's done this year than how those individual players performed.

[vick]

To your point earlier, those rankings are probably more a reflection of thejob Bennett's done this year than how those individual players performed.

Kenpom's player rankings include non-conference, where Gill was extremely (and unsustainably) efficient.

That said, let's not sell Gill short here. In ACC play alone, compare him to, say, Winslow, and he's been equally efficient while using up a far higher percentage of possessions (albeit with significantly fewer minutes). He's had a really good year (though I don't think anywhere near the top 10 nationally either).

[Seattle Hoo]

I'm not sure if I should share this, but I saw an All-ACC voter in a coffee shop today. He was writing some stuff on a scratch sheet of paper, and then consulted it while typing on his laptop. He threw out the piece of paper when he left, and I recovered it.

Below is an exact transcription. Misspellings are his.

All-ACC Team

FIRST TEAM
Marcus Page, UNC (POY)
Kemmedy Meeks, UNC (DPOY)
Jarian Grant, Noter Dame
Rakim Christmas, Syracuse
Brice Jackson, UNC

SECOND TEAM
Malcom Brogdon, Virginia
P.J. Tokoto, UNC
Oliver Hanlon, Boston Colluge
Montreal Harrell, Louisville
Justin Johnson, UNC

THIRD TEAM
Anthony Gil, Virginia
Patt Connaughton, Noter Dame
Trevor Lacy, NC State
Cody Miller-MacEntire, Wake Forrest
Tyler Hansbruh, UNC

It may seem shocking -- both the player choices and the spelling choices -- but for an All-ACC voter, this looks pretty fair. (I just hope he has a good editor.)

Sorry, I don't know brevity. I'm assuming this is a joke.

[NSDukeFan]

Sorry, I don't know brevity. I'm assuming this is a joke.

Brevity is wit.