Syracuse Men's Basketball NCAA Punishments. K now has most wins at 1 school.

[UrinalCake]

So it takes them a couple months to investigate Syracuse, yet the stuff in Chapel Hill has been going on for five years (since information first started coming out) and has been spoon fed to the NCAA through numerous private investigations, the SACS, local and national media, and book and pretty soon another. Still hearing crickets regarding the CHeats.

[FerryFor50]

So it takes them a couple months to investigate Syracuse, yet the stuff in Chapel Hill has been going on for five years (since information first started coming out) and has been spoon fed to the NCAA through numerous private investigations, the SACS, local and national media, and book and pretty soon another. Still hearing crickets regarding the CHeats.

No, the investigation started sooner. Syracuse self-reported in 2007 (as opposed to needing a whistleblower).

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2015/02/syracuse_basketball_self-imposes_postseason_ban_this_year_in_ncaa_investiga tion.html

So there is a lot less of a time period to cover than, say, stuff that's happened since 1989. ;)

They've waited 4 months to disclose the findings.

[burns15]

Boeheim suspended 9 games. Men's basketball loses 3 scholarships a year for the next 4 years and is placed on probation for 5 years. Link below.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/12432471/ncaa-suspends-jim-boeheim-nine-games-cuts-syracuse-orange-schoarlships

[fisheyes]

This is certainly a wow. I wonder if he will step asided now...

In addition Boeheim and Syracuse have to vacate wins from multiple years...

[PackMan97]

This is certainly a wow. I wonder if he will step asided now...

In addition Boeheim and Syracuse have to vacate wins from multiple years...

Nothing good comes from self reporting.

[rthomas]

If Syracuse's penalties also include vacating all wins in which ineligible men's basketball students played in 2004-05, 2005-06, 2006-07, 2010-11 and 2011-12, what does this do to Boeheim's W-L record?

[Dukehky]

If Syracuse's penalties also include vacating all wins in which ineligible men's basketball students played in 2004-05, 2005-06, 2006-07, 2010-11 and 2011-12, what does this do to Boeheim's W-L record?

It skewers it.

Well, UNC should get hit way harder than this, you know in ten more years.

3 schollys a year is too much, IMO.

[CDu]

If Syracuse's penalties also include vacating all wins in which ineligible men's basketball students played in 2004-05, 2005-06, 2006-07, 2010-11 and 2011-12, what does this do to Boeheim's W-L record?

Well, it will cost him well over 100 wins. Making it virtually impossible for him to catch Coach K (not that he was likely to do so anyway).

[English]

No, the investigation started sooner. Syracuse self-reported in 2007 (as opposed to needing a whistleblower).

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2015/02/syracuse_basketball_self-imposes_postseason_ban_this_year_in_ncaa_investiga tion.html

So there is a lot less of a time period to cover than, say, stuff that's happened since 1989. ;)

They've waited 4 months to disclose the findings.

^^^This.

If you're going to suggest that timeliness of the NCAA investigation and action is paramount or even critical, this Syracuse situation is a terrible case study. It's taken the NCAA so long to investigate and reach resolution that nearly everyone I've spoken with on the matter, including many avid college hoops fans and analysts, couldn't even remember the initial self-reported violations (admittedly, myself included). Given that the egregiousness of UNC's systemic rot is miles above that of Syracuse's issues, extrapolating from that point, it might be decades before the NCAA even completes its investigation. Let's all collectively hope that this is not what we can expect from NCAA in the UNC case.

Incidentally, SportsCenter is talking at length about the Cuse case in comparison to UNC's situation right now.

[burns15]

Well, it will cost him well over 100 wins. Making it virtually impossible for him to catch Coach K (not that he was likely to do so anyway).

ESPN now confirming (see the same article linked in the OP) that Syracuse will vacate all wins from those years in which an ineligible player participated in. K now has a massive lead in the wins column.

[77devil]

Boeheim suspended 9 games. Men's basketball loses 3 scholarships a year for the next 4 years and is placed on probation for 5 years. Link below.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/12432471/ncaa-suspends-jim-boeheim-nine-games-cuts-syracuse-orange-schoarlships

UNC-CH administrators cannot be pleased. Didn't touch the Syracuse NC. No doubt that was part of the negotiation/deal.

[Bluealum]

Nothing good comes from self reporting.

That's your takeaway from this? Wow!

[NYBri]

Wow. This is harsh. 3 Scholarships is steep. Wonder if they avoided multi-year post season ban by self imposing this year.

Next question will be concerning JB and his future at the 'Cuse. Will they let him go, or have him struggle through the probation period.

[MCFinARL]

Nothing good comes from self reporting.

Yes, while the NCAA "accepted" Syracuse's self-imposed post-season punishment, I have to wonder, given how severe the other sanctions are, whether they might have let this year's team finish out, perhaps without Boeheim? Maybe this year's team--completely unrelated to the issues here--has forfeited its post-season play for nothing. Sad.

[SCMatt33]

Incidentally, Coach K now holds the record for most wins at one school. Not the way I would have wanted him to earn that record.

[Dev11]

Yes, while the NCAA "accepted" Syracuse's self-imposed post-season punishment, I have to wonder, given how severe the other sanctions are, whether they might have let this year's team finish out, perhaps without Boeheim? Maybe this year's team--completely unrelated to the issues here--has forfeited its post-season play for nothing. Sad.

Part of the NCAA statement more or less said thank you for the advance sanctions, but they are now just icing on the enormous cake of despair we are handing you, and please have a nice day.

This is a big hurt to Syracuse.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Wow, the NCAA must be livid with UNC to have levied this on the Orange

[Kedsy]

UNC-CH administrators cannot be pleased.

Between these penalties and the Weber State penalties in November, the NCAA is putting themselves in a very difficult position. Now they either have to absolutely bury UNC or, in comparison with the other penalties, they have to give a jaywalking ticket to a mass murderer. Either way, looks like the end of the world, far as inter-collegiate athletics goes.

[TKG]

Wow, vacating all wins associated with using ineligible players? There must be a few tightening sphincters in Chapel Hill ( more so than usual, I mean).

[NYBri]

Incidentally, Coach K now holds the record for most wins at one school. Not the way I would have wanted him to earn that record.

There will always be an asterisk. Rightly or wrongly.

[theschwartz]

Wow. This is harsh. 3 Scholarships is steep. Wonder if they avoided multi-year post season ban by self imposing this year.

Next question will be concerning JB and his future at the 'Cuse. Will they let him go, or have him struggle through the probation period.

I don't know, will he even want to stick around at this point and coach a decimated roster? Especially now that Coach K's win record is out of reach, what's his incentive for sticking around? The man's 70 - I would not be shocked if he announced his retirement after this season or next.

[JasonEvans]

I'll be very interested in seeing if the media understands that Jimmmy B now has a lot fewer wins. We heard much commotion over K and Boeheim and their win totals when they faced each other this year. I wonder if that chatter will just go mute next year or if ESPN and others will continue to think that Boeheim has over 900 wins.

Also, someone mentioned the Syracuse National title not being affected. Even though the violations go back to 2001, I think the presumption is that the ineligible players did not play on the 2003 title team. The 2004-05 season is the start of the vacated wins.

-Jason "gimme a sec and I can calculate the improper wins that are coming off Jimmy's record" Evans

[NYBri]

Wow, vacating all wins associated with using ineligible players? There must be a few tightening sphincters in Chapel Hill ( more so than usual, I mean).

I'm sure they are looking at how they are going to rearrange the remaining banners in the Dean.

[FerryFor50]

Funny tweet from @ICMeltdown:


The NCAA is so mad at #UNC they're going to take another scholarship from Syracuse... #OrangeYouGladYouAreNotCuse

Also, will they be moving the wins from Boeheim to Dean Smith's total to even up with K?

[Duke79UNLV77]

Given the severity of the sanctions, I would expect more specifics beyond just "academic misconduct, extra benefits, the failure to follow its drug testing policy and impermissible booster activity." Were the extra benefits more than, say, the rental cars, beach housing, etc. that UNC players have enjoyed? Did the academic misconduct approach getting A's for fake classes to balance out D's and F's in real classes?

[andyw715]

I wonder how successful our appeal will be.

In any event, I'm headed up to PNC tomorrow at high noon to wish Christmas a good luck in the NBA and a thanks for 4 years of hard work (on and off the court) as an exceptional Syracuse student-athlete.


Maybe I'll stick around and try to get a ticket to your game, UNC gotta be shaking in their boot. (who am I kidding, they'll get a pass).



Do have a Q though, I notice the 9 game ban is ACC play. Is that common? What about the previous 13 games that would have been played already? Interesting it just doesn't start in Nov.

[Owen Meany]

I don't know, will he even want to stick around at this point and coach a decimated roster? Especially now that Coach K's win record is out of reach, what's his incentive for sticking around? The man's 70 - I would not be shocked if he announced his retirement after this season or next.

I would imagine the NCAA, ACC, and UNC, is very grateful Syracuse isn't coming to Greensboro this season. I can only imagine what an angry Boeheim might say after what could be his final game.

[JasonEvans]

-Jason "gimme a sec and I can calculate the improper wins that are coming off Jimmy's record" Evans

2005 - 27
2006 - 23
2007 - 24
2011 - 27
2012 - 34
Total wins --> 135

--Jason "new win total is 966 - 135 = 831" Evans

[Tom B.]

-Jason "gimme a sec and I can calculate the improper wins that are coming off Jimmy's record" Evans



As many as 135 wins could be affected. As I understand it, the final number will depend on which games ineligible players actually played in.

[andyw715]

Given the severity of the sanctions, I would expect more specifics beyond just "academic misconduct, extra benefits, the failure to follow its drug testing policy and impermissible booster activity." Were the extra benefits more than, say, the rental cars, beach housing, etc. that UNC players have enjoyed? Did the academic misconduct approach getting A's for fake classes to balance out D's and F's in real classes?


Well I know James Southerland received 70 bucks for something, he paid it back though. And Devendorf failed the drug test a couple times a bunch of years ago, smoking a doob while getting brain from some freshman coed. Then there's the big dummy Fab Melo, but he was already thinking about the NBA (which worked out great for him) so decided not to attend classes.

What a cluster.


Good luck tonight....hope your guys win.

[NYBri]

In any event, I'm headed up to PNC tomorrow at high noon to wish Christmas a good luck in the NBA and a thanks for 4 years of hard work (on and off the court) as an exceptional Syracuse student-athlete.


Indeed. I also wish him well. Good player and seems like a hard working, 4 year guy who deserves all good things.

[UrinalCake]

According to this link from the NCAA, the head basketball coach will be suspended for nine ACC games. Does this mean if Boeheim retires, the new coach coming in will sit out his first nine games? Or does this penalty only apply to Boeheim?

http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/syracuse-did-not-control-athletics-basketball-coach-failed-monitor

[andyw715]

If you are interested.

Goes into more detail of our "improprieties"

Message from the Chancellor

http://cuse.com/news/2015/3/6/GEN_0306152940.aspx

[SCMatt33]

There will always be an asterisk. Rightly or wrongly.

Not necessarily. Coach K is only about 30 wins or so behind in that category before the penalty. Add in any wins this postseason plus whatever Boeheim loses from the suspension next year, and Coach K would only have to coach one more season than Boeheim to pass him.

[andyw715]

In addition to this years post season ban, SU self imposed the following

A voluntary, two-year term of probation for the Department of Athletics;
Elimination of one scholarship for men's basketball for the 2015-2016 season;
Elimination of a men's basketball off-campus recruiter for six months during 2015-2016;
Vacation of 24 men's basketball wins (15 in 2004-05 and 9 in 2011-12); and
Vacation of 11 football wins: (6 in 2004-05; 1 in 2005-06; 4 in 2006-07).

[FerryFor50]

As many as 135 wins could be affected. As I understand it, the final number will depend on which games ineligible players actually played in.

ESPN reporting 108 wins vacated.

[theschwartz]

ESPN reporting 108 wins vacated.

Goes from 2nd to 6th on the all-time list.

[NYBri]

According to the chancellor's message, looks like there will be no under-the-bus-coach-tossing by the University:


Although the University recognizes the seriousness of the violations it has acknowledged, it respectfully disagrees with certain findings of the Committee. Specifically, the University strongly disagrees that it failed to maintain institutional control over its athletics programs, or that Men's Basketball Head Coach Jim Boeheim has taken actions that justify a finding that he was responsible for the rules violations.

The University is considering whether it will appeal certain portions of the decision. Coach Boeheim may choose to appeal the portions of the decision that impact him personally. Should he decide to do so, we would support him in this step.

[jgehtland]

Has anybody offered ANY reason why this investigation took 8 years to complete?

Should we expect the UNC investigation to last until 2027?

[TKG]

Anyone know if this could impact Boeheim's place in the HOF?

[andyw715]

Well I would expect Thomas Bryant to be available now ;)

[Owen Meany]

Has anybody offered ANY reason why this investigation took 8 years to complete?

Should we expect the UNC investigation to last until 2027?

I don't know when the investigation began, but it would have been really nice had this been cleared up before they joined the ACC.

[Owen Meany]

Well I would expect Thomas Bryant to be available now ;)

I looked up Bryant to see who he was and found an article from November where his mom said his "realistic list" was down to Kentucky and Syracuse. Then she added this:

As for Indiana, Bryant said she and her son have been turned off by the Hoosiers' recent spate of bad news, issues that have included failed drug tests and underage drinking. Six of Indiana's 13 scholarship players have been implicated in one or the other over the past year.

"They have a lot going on," Linda said. "It seems like we went down there under false pretenses. They didn't tell us anything about failed drug tests or that type of thing going on. My son doesn't need to be around that stuff."

Yeah, pretty sure it won't be Syracuse.

[hurleyfor3]

Now Boeheim has the opportunity to pass Dean Smith twice!

I don't know how this isn't a setup for something harsh for unc.

[hurleyfor3]

I looked up Bryant to see who he was and found an article from November where his mom said his "realistic list" was down to Kentucky and Syracuse. Then she added this:

As for Indiana, Bryant said she and her son have been turned off by the Hoosiers' recent spate of bad news, issues that have included failed drug tests and underage drinking. Six of Indiana's 13 scholarship players have been implicated in one or the other over the past year.

"They have a lot going on," Linda said. "It seems like we went down there under false pretenses. They didn't tell us anything about failed drug tests or that type of thing going on. My son doesn't need to be around that stuff."

Yeah, pretty sure it won't be Syracuse.

He wants a clean program with no whiff of anything shady, so he'll pick... Calipari? Yeah, that joke wrote itself.

[FerryFor50]

If this is true... WOWWWWWW


Adam Rowe ‏@BlueDevilLair 3m3 minutes ago

That's just... MT @slmandel: Syracuse director of basketball ops and others had players' passwords, would email their professors as them.

[CameronBlue]

If this is true... WOWWWWWW

Double wow. So tell us again why losing 3 scholarships for 4 years is too harsh?

[Atldukie79]

I always felt that the most likely threat to the K win record was Boeheim.
If nothing more than the variability of health issues and motivational issues for an older coach.

This seals the deal for the foreseeable future.

[roywhite]

Also from Stewart Mandel:


The academic portion of Syracuse report involves collaborated corruption, yet a fraction of what went on at UNC. What will that penalty be?

https://twitter.com/slmandel

[Jeffrey]

Hi,

Do commitments have the chance to quickly go elsewhere?

[mattman91]

Hi,

Do commitments have the chance to quickly go elsewhere?

Hi,

Good question.

[jacone21]

...And Devendorf ...getting brain from some freshman coed.

Was she helping him with his math homework or something? Seems like a nice thing to do.

[Troublemaker]

For emphasis, the NCAA's statement on basketball success vs academic integrity:

"Improper institutional involvement and influence in a student's academic work in order to gain or maintain eligibility is a violation of NCAA rules and a violation of the most fundamental core values of the NCAA and higher education," the NCAA's Committee on Infractions wrote in its decision. "The behavior in this case, which placed the desire to achieve success on the basketball court over academic integrity, demonstrated clearly misplaced institutional priorities."

Hopefully UNC has reason to be shaking right now.

[Duvall]

For emphasis, the NCAA's statement on basketball success vs academic integrity:

"Improper institutional involvement and influence in a student's academic work in order to gain or maintain eligibility is a violation of NCAA rules and a violation of the most fundamental core values of the NCAA and higher education," the NCAA's Committee on Infractions wrote in its decision. "The behavior in this case, which placed the desire to achieve success on the basketball court over academic integrity, demonstrated clearly misplaced institutional priorities."

Hopefully UNC has reason to be shaking right now.

Well, maybe. But UNC is a flagship public institution, and the rules for them are just different. UNC athletics is too big to fail in a way that Syracuse and Duke simply aren't.

[jv001]

For emphasis, the NCAA's statement on basketball success vs academic integrity:

"Improper institutional involvement and influence in a student's academic work in order to gain or maintain eligibility is a violation of NCAA rules and a violation of the most fundamental core values of the NCAA and higher education," the NCAA's Committee on Infractions wrote in its decision. "The behavior in this case, which placed the desire to achieve success on the basketball court over academic integrity, demonstrated clearly misplaced institutional priorities."

Hopefully UNC has reason to be shaking right now.

UnCheat has gotten by with cheating for so long, I'll believe it when I see it(sanctions). I just hope I live long enough to see the punishment delivered, :cool: GoDuke!

[nmduke2001]

Jeff Goodman was on Cowherd and they basically said that if this is what Syracuse got as punishment, UNC should get the death penalty.

[Olympic Fan]

Anyone know if this could impact Boeheim's place in the HOF?

Unlikely, considering that they just inducted Tarkanian a year ago.

[TKG]

Jeff Goodman was on Cowherd and they basically said that if this is what Syracuse got as punishment, UNC should get the death penalty.

From their lips to God's ear.......

[oldnavy]

Well, maybe. But UNC is a flagship public institution, and the rules for them are just different. UNC athletics is too big to fail in a way that Syracuse and Duke simply aren't.

I don't know about that... time will tell, but my gut is telling me that UNC is going to be in for a significant penalty.

[RepoMan]

This definitely sets a precedent. If NCAA establishes that ineligible players at UNC played in games, it is almost certain they will vacate those games. I know we don't have sufficient facts to assess exactly how many games might be at stake for UNC, but do we have a basis for a reasonable guess at the number?

Per Wiki, this is the current overall win total comparison:

3 North Carolina 2135
4 Duke 2054

Can we catch them?

[oldnavy]

This definitely sets a precedent. If NCAA establishes that ineligible players at UNC played in games, it is almost certain they will vacate those games. I know we don't have sufficient facts to assess exactly how many games might be at stake for UNC, but do we have a basis for a reasonable guess at the number?

Per Wiki, this is the current overall win total comparison:

3 North Carolina 2135
4 Duke 2054

Can we catch them?

If they go back 18 years, easily!

[DukieInKansas]

This definitely sets a precedent. If NCAA establishes that ineligible players at UNC played in games, it is almost certain they will vacate those games. I know we don't have sufficient facts to assess exactly how many games might be at stake for UNC, but do we have a basis for a reasonable guess at the number?

Per Wiki, this is the current overall win total comparison:

3 North Carolina 2135
4 Duke 2054

Can we catch them?

We won't catch them as they fall past. No reason to risk injury trying to break their fall. :D

[Jeffrey]

But UNC is a flagship public institution, and the rules for them are just different. UNC athletics is too big to fail in a way that Syracuse and Duke simply aren't.

Hi,

Do you truly believe that or is it merely theatrics?

[MarkD83]

Jeff Goodman was on Cowherd and they basically said that if this is what Syracuse got as punishment, UNC should get the death penalty.

So. What exactly would the "death penalty" look like. No sports for a year No scholarships for x years .....,

[Duke79UNLV77]

If you are interested.

Goes into more detail of our "improprieties"

Message from the Chancellor

http://cuse.com/news/2015/3/6/GEN_0306152940.aspx

Realizing the self-interest in this summary, if it is close to accurate, I think the penalties are too harsh. The violations would certainly pale in comparison to UNC's. For example, $8,335 in extra benefits divided among 5 athletes is something that may go unnoticed (and would scare me could happen anywhere), in comparison to, say, a series of nice rental cars accumulating traffic tickets right outside the practice facility. The academic violations are more serious, but still nothing compared to the scope of UNC's scandal.

[PackMan97]

So. What exactly would the "death penalty" look like. No sports for a year No scholarships for x years .....,

I would be happy for the punishment to fit the crime.

For every NCAA post-season a team made with an ineligible player, add one year post-season ban.
For every athlete that took these classes, lose one scholarship over the number of years that sport cheated.

If this means men's basketball has an 15 year post-season ban and loses 5 scholarships a year over 18 years, so be it.

I would add, no media or post-season revenue sharing from the NCAA or ACC for 5 years and repayment of all post-season/bowl proceeds in the years cheating occurred. Their sports endowment is big enough to handle the hit.

[OldPhiKap]

Jeff Goodman was on Cowherd and they basically said that if this is what Syracuse got as punishment, UNC should get the death penalty.

Seriously, I don't know how this is not the penalty. Two decades of fraud, over multiple sports teams, in a coordinated and brazen effort to keep otherwise ineligible players on the teams.

It's almost like UNC is daring the NCAA to do it, knowing the NCAA will blink first.

[Chicken Little]

More than wins vacated, or a death penalty, I have to imagine the real risk for UNC is becoming the first program to vacate a national title. Per the N&O (http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/education/unc-scandal/article10122626.html), that 2005 championship team had "35 bogus class enrollments. Nine came during the fall semester of 2004, when eligibility for the spring was determined. Twenty-six were during the spring semester, when the season climaxed with a victory over Illinois in St. Louis."

I don't doubt that the NCAA doesn't want to do it, but they pretty much have to.

[NYBri]

Heels are in for a world of hurt. Deservedly so based on what we know.

However, I'm not keen on seeing their program completely destroyed for decades from a selfish point of view. I like playing (and beating) them with lots on the line.

But you got to pay for your crimes and if it's a long death penalty, so be it.

[TKG]

Seriously, I don't know how this is not the penalty. Two decades of fraud, over multiple sports teams, in a coordinated and brazen effort to keep otherwise ineligible players on the teams.

It's almost like UNC is daring the NCAA to do it, knowing the NCAA will blink first.

Well, from a quick perusal of IC after the Syracuse announcement a couple of trends have emerged:
1) the issues in Chapel Hill are academic not athletic.
2) what Syracuse did was way worse than that of the which the Heels are accused.

[arnie]

Hi,

Do you truly believe that or is it merely theatrics?

I agree with Duvall. The flagship effect coupled with ACC commissioner involvement with fraud, makes sig penalties doubtful.

[subzero02]

If they go back 18 years, easily!

We'll see what the Helms Athletic Foundation has to say about that...

[sagegrouse]

Incidentally, Coach K now holds the record for most wins at one school. Not the way I would have wanted him to earn that record.

Don't worry. In some subsequent law suit against the NCAA, Syracuse will get to reinstate its wins, much like Penn State did. It will require the support of the NY State Government, but -- don't worry -- calls are already being made to Albany.

[gumbomoop]

From ESPN website article by Dana O'Neil:

And the truth is, the NCAA had to go after him. Two years ago, the enforcement group restructured its penalties, allowing for severe punishments against coaches, essentially eliminating the "I didn't know" defense from the arsenal.

Neither Larry Brown, facing NCAA scrutiny at SMU, nor Roy Williams, in the epicenter of the North Carolina academic mess, should be breathing easy, either.

"Absolutely they should be worried,'' the same lawyer said.

[OldPhiKap]

Let's assume that the NCAA "only" does to UNC what it did to Syracuse -- (1) void all wins where there was a tainted player; and (2) give pretty harsh scholarship limitations on each sport for four years. I forget the exact years that Wainstein found, but something like 1993-2011 seems to be my rough memory. That might void the following National Championships:

Men's Basketball -- 1993, 2005, 2009 (three of five, Helms not included)
Women's Basketball -- 1994 (only one)
Field Hockey -- 1995, 1996, 1997, 2007, 2009 (five of six)
Mens' Soccer -- 2001, 2011 (only two)
Women's Soccer -- 1993, 1994, 1996, 1997, 1999, 2000, 2003, 2006, 2008, 2009 (eleven of eighteen)

So the question is -- if UNC had to void twenty one national championships, all the wins associated with those players, and get severe scholarship limitations on each program (plus other affected ones without championships, like football and baseball) -- would that be considered "adequate"?

I would think so.

And remember, that's taking away wins from Dean; all of Gut's wins; all of D'oh's wins; and the vast majority of Roy's wins. Let alone a huge chunk of Sylvia's wins. Plus at least four years of suckitude in each sport, probably for even longer. Plus losses (I would assume) of Roy and other successful coaches.

That would be brutal -- all before even considering a fine. And I don't see how the NCAA avoids that, unless they find a statute of limitations bars some of it (Although fraud and concealment usually waive the running of S/Ls in normal circumstances).

[oldnavy]

I agree with Duvall. The flagship effect coupled with ACC commissioner involvement with fraud, makes sig penalties doubtful.

I would argue that for these very reasons the NCAA should punish UNC MORE than it would a smaller school.... IF the NCAA wants to send a message.

The only thing the NCAA may value more than a flagship institution is their own power base... if they go lightly on UNC then they open themselves up to being attacked on all sides. What better opportunity to flex than this? No other school will care if UNC is hammered, no one will take UNC's side, but plenty of schools will be upset if they walk....

[OldPhiKap]

I would argue that for these very reasons the NCAA should punish UNC MORE than it would a smaller school.... IF the NCAA wants to send a message.

The only thing the NCAA may value more than a flagship institution is their own power base... if they go lightly on UNC then they open themselves up to being attacked on all sides. What better opportunity to flex than this? No other school will care if UNC is hammered, no one will take UNC's side, but plenty of schools will be upset if they walk....

Exactly, What do you tell these other schools that have been hammered, if you go lightly on UNC? What do you tell non-Swofford-led conference commissioners?

[devildeac]

We won't catch them as they fall past. No reason to risk injury trying to break their fall. :D

Can't spork you but hilarious thought.

[sagegrouse]

Well, maybe. But UNC is a flagship public institution, and the rules for them are just different. UNC athletics is too big to fail in a way that Syracuse and Duke simply aren't.

Not true, although I recognize that both of us are uttering an opinion. You could wipe UNC off the face of the earth with minimum effect on the college football universe and only a five percent effect on the basketball universe (mostly due to the Duke rivalry). UNC's revenue is not in the 20 of college athletics programs (#30 by USA Today ranking of public institutions) -- and according to ESPN, ranking slightly behind Duke.

Where UNC's status does help it is with the accrediting agency, which typically spends much of its time dealing with lesser institutions seeking accreditation for the first time, accredited institutions under financial duress (leading to the closing down of facilities and programs), and fly-by-night commercial entities seeking a marketing advantage. UNC, along with Duke (then Trinity), was one of six institutions that founded the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools 90-100 years ago. SACS ain't gonna jerk UNC's accreditation -- it's a highly ranked schools with a zillion grads out in the workforce. But SACS, I predict, will be very creative in coming up with a penalty that doesn't appear to be a slap on the wrist.

[OldPhiKap]

You could wipe UNC off the face of the earth . . . .

You had me at "You"

[oldnavy]

You had me at "You"

That literally caused me to LOL! Thanks.

Couldn't spork you however... sorry have to spread the love.

[devildeac]

Boeheim's reaction, worthy on an encore performance:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O55rhjQh8VA

[DashNative]

In law school, we learned about a "distinction without a difference," meaning a situation where two situations or fact patterns can be distinguished based on surface details without being any different in substantive ways.

So, knowing that the NCAA is up against it from any number of directions, does it make any substantive difference in potential punishments if the academic fraud was accomplished in different ways at SU and UNC? As pointed out, Dana O'Neill's article shows that "I didn't know" won't cut it in terms of culpability for the coaches. So, Roy is more than likely headed for the golf course a little early next year as well (or whenever the NCAA concludes its investigation). If Boeheim got 9, what on Earth is Roy looking at? Also, is it significant that the 2003 Title stays in Syracuse?

Again, knowing that precedent doesn't mean much to the NCAA, does anyone else know if Michigan (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/17/sports/ncaafootball/17michigan.html?_r=1&) or Auburn (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/14/sports/ncaafootball/14auburn.html?pagewanted=all) were ever sanctioned for their academic issues? What were the penalties in those cases? I remember (I think!) that Michigan was sanctioned for RichRod's practice schedules, but I wasn't sure about the classes.

[ojaidave]

One sentence in the Syracuse Chancellor's letter caught my attention: "NCAA bylaws dictate that they must accept an institution's academic integrity determinations." So does that mean that as long as UNC continues to claim their troubles were strictly "academics issues," with no regards to athletics, that the NCAA doesn't have the authority to come down on UNC? Since UNC has already investigated itself like, three times already. they clearly are in a position to know that the paper classes had nothing to do with keeping athletes eligible.

[rthomas]

And remember, that's taking away wins from Dean; all of Gut's wins; all of D'oh's wins; and the vast majority of Roy's wins. Let alone a huge chunk of Sylvia's wins. Plus at least four years of suckitude in each sport, probably for even longer. Plus losses (I would assume) of Roy and other successful coaches.

Did D'oh have a win? Certainly wiping his legacy away doesn't hurt UNC, nor change their win total very much.

[hudlow]

Did D'oh have a win? Certainly wiping his legacy away doesn't hurt UNC, nor change their win total very much.

It might set him back on most wins at one school.

[arnie]

One sentence in the Syracuse Chancellor's letter caught my attention: "NCAA bylaws dictate that they must accept an institution's academic integrity determinations." So does that mean that as long as UNC continues to claim their troubles were strictly "academics issues," with no regards to athletics, that the NCAA doesn't have the authority to come down on UNC? Since UNC has already investigated itself like, three times already. they clearly are in a position to know that the paper classes had nothing to do with keeping athletes eligible.

Bingo. They've already investigated the Heels once and come to that conclusion. With Swofford leading the interference this investigative round will provide similar conclusions. Guys, the administration and coaches are truly corrupt, but their BS seems to work. The deck is stacked against sig penalties; don't expect justice and the American Way to prevail. Again, Swofford is too powerful and sacrificing Syracuse means nothing to him.

[uh_no]

I'm honestly glad that Boeheim will no longer get a "pass" for being friends with K.

for many years, he's had issues with the program...players getting in trouble, making APR by the slightest of margins, treating the media like crap, yet people have waxed poetic about him because he has wins and he worked with K and team USA. It's about time IMO that he's shone for running a very loose, potentially out of control program.

As a uconn fan, I will admit wholly there was some "envy" if you will while Calhoun gets lambasted, Boeheim gets praised while having what amounts to similar issues. So to some degree I'm "happy" that Boeheim got his as well (e.g. everyone complained that they didn't want uconn in the ACC because of the "issues" but nobody balked at syracuse's similar issues).

I AM happy that it seems that uconn has found a coach that upholds a bit more standard than Calhoun seemed to, and hope that syracuse will do so as well (much like I hope duke will after k....brad stevens COME ON DOWN!!).

The DOWNSIDE of this is maybe K has SLIGHTLY less incentive to not-retire...as his record is in much less risk than it otherwise may have been.

[OZ]

As a uconn fan, I will admit wholly there was some "envy" if you will while Calhoun gets lambasted, Boeheim gets praised while having what amounts to similar issues. So to some degree I'm "happy" that Boeheim got his as well



I wonder how set in stone Boeheim's loss of games will be? Penn State recently made a new deal with the NCAA (seems like it cost them $50-60 million) and got Paterno's 100+ wins back. I have no reason to believe that the NCAA's position is any less flaccid now.

[uh_no]

I wonder how set in stone Boeheim's loss of games will be? Penn State recently made a new deal with the NCAA (seems like it cost them $50-60 million) and got Paterno's 100+ wins back. I have no reason to believe that the NCAA's position is any less flaccid now.

the NCAA was treading uncharted water with the paterno case, and realized under thread of lawsuit it had overstepped its bounds. The NCAA has been vacating wins for academically ineligible players for years. It's a slight nuance.

[OZ]

the NCAA was treading uncharted water with the paterno case, and realized under thread of lawsuit it had overstepped its bounds. The NCAA has been vacating wins for academically ineligible players for years. It's a slight nuance.

We will have a chance to see how solid this is as appeals are coming....and I suspect lawsuits won't be too far behind. I just don't have a lot of confidence that the NCAA will stick with anything... here's hoping.

[andyw715]

The report.
http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/Syracuse%20Final%20Public%20Infractions%20Decision .pdf

I don't know a lot about UNC's situation, but according to this the academic infractions were to solely get players eligible.

[Tjenkins]

Also, is it significant that the 2003 Title stays in Syracuse?.

I strongly doubt we'll ever see the NCAA strip of team of a national championship.

[Saratoga2]

Academic irregularities for the purpose of fielding better basketball and softball teams and the involvement of the coaches is anathama to NCAA rules and was punished harshly. Clearly the coaches and the program need to be punished harshly and was. The sorry part of this is that clean programs and players suffered when beaten by teams and coaches unwilling to play by the rules.

That UNC has very serious vilolations should bring down similar if not more harsh punishments on their programs and coaches. Sad that it has to come to this. A program shamed by the actions of those more interested in donations from alumnae than the welfare and growth of their students.

[rocketeli]

I'm honestly glad that Boeheim will no longer get a "pass" for being friends with K.

for many years, he's had issues with the program...players getting in trouble, making APR by the slightest of margins, treating the media like crap, yet people have waxed poetic about him because he has wins and he worked with K and team USA. It's about time IMO that he's shone for running a very loose, potentially out of control program.

As a uconn fan, I will admit wholly there was some "envy" if you will while Calhoun gets lambasted, Boeheim gets praised while having what amounts to similar issues. So to some degree I'm "happy" that Boeheim got his as well (e.g. everyone complained that they didn't want uconn in the ACC because of the "issues" but nobody balked at syracuse's similar issues).

I AM happy that it seems that uconn has found a coach that upholds a bit more standard than Calhoun seemed to, and hope that syracuse will do so as well (much like I hope duke will after k....brad stevens COME ON DOWN!!).

The DOWNSIDE of this is maybe K has SLIGHTLY less incentive to not-retire...as his record is in much less risk than it otherwise may have been.

I was thinking the same thing. Boeheim is a slimeball and it was it tiresome to see all the koolaid going around because he was working with the national team...

[uh_no]

I strongly doubt we'll ever see the NCAA strip of team of a national championship.

like USC losing 2 in football?

[Tjenkins]

like USC losing 2 in football?

The BCS stripped USC, BCS is not the NCAA. Apples & Oranges.

[OldPhiKap]

I strongly doubt we'll ever see the NCAA strip of team of a national championship.


like USC losing 2 in football?

AFAIK, no one disputes that McCants should not have been eligible in 2005. Not a scrub, a key starter. I cannot imagine they keep that banner.

[Dukehky]

AFAIK, no one disputes that McCants should not have been eligible in 2005. Not a scrub, a key starter. I cannot imagine they keep that banner.

If UNC receives anything more than a slap on the wrist, 2005 will be gone.

[hurleyfor3]

I rather hope now the ncaa runs four corners with unc for a couple years, as long as when it drops the hammer it drops it hard. It'll destroy their recruiting anyway.

[andyw715]

Moral of the story.

Lies/drugs/money (SU) =

Covering up a pedophile (Ped State) (even the scholarship withholding is within a half % between the 2 program's sanctions) >

coaches covering up a murder (Baylor)

So if u want the NCAA to go easy, kill someone.

[DukieInKansas]

Bingo. They've already investigated the Heels once and come to that conclusion. With Swofford leading the interference this investigative round will provide similar conclusions. Guys, the administration and coaches are truly corrupt, but their BS seems to work. The deck is stacked against sig penalties; don't expect justice and the American Way to prevail. Again, Swofford is too powerful and sacrificing Syracuse means nothing to him.

I'm counting on Justise to prevail tomorrow night, however. And the American Way. Let's Go, Duke!

9F 9F 9F

[sammy3469]

One sentence in the Syracuse Chancellor's letter caught my attention: "NCAA bylaws dictate that they must accept an institution's academic integrity determinations." So does that mean that as long as UNC continues to claim their troubles were strictly "academics issues," with no regards to athletics, that the NCAA doesn't have the authority to come down on UNC? Since UNC has already investigated itself like, three times already. they clearly are in a position to know that the paper classes had nothing to do with keeping athletes eligible.

In the past, yes. However, the NCAA goes out of their way here in the actual report to say that while the university can say that, well we the NCAA can still say any "help" that we view as problematic can be ruled an impermissible benefit.

Unless I'm mistaken that line of reasoning is new and the NCAA went out of their way to make it. It's no longer academic v athletic, but now includes this grey area the NCAA can use at will. That's what should have UNC and their lawyers calling the NCAA Monday morning pleading for mercy. They went out of their way here to cut the legs from UNC's argument. Who knows if it was on purpose, but the precedence is now set.

[The Gordog]

Heels are in for a world of hurt. Deservedly so based on what we know.

However, I'm not keen on seeing their program completely destroyed for decades from a selfish point of view. I like playing (and beating) them with lots on the line.

But you got to pay for your crimes and if it's a long death penalty, so be it.

Hey, UVA... The position of our rival is opening up.

MD, sorry you are not in position to apply.

[hurleyfor3]

Didn't espn tout, during our last game with them, that Cuse had the longest current streak of winning seasons in D-I?

That's gone too.

[sagegrouse]

One sentence in the Syracuse Chancellor's letter caught my attention: "NCAA bylaws dictate that they must accept an institution's academic integrity determinations." So does that mean that as long as UNC continues to claim their troubles were strictly "academics issues," with no regards to athletics, that the NCAA doesn't have the authority to come down on UNC? Since UNC has already investigated itself like, three times already. they clearly are in a position to know that the paper classes had nothing to do with keeping athletes eligible.

I read it as meaning just the opposite. There was a huge rogue operation at UNC over many, many years to subvert "academic integrity." No one in academics at UNC determined that courses created and graded by an administrative assistant and with no contact with a recognized professor or instructor were allowed. Therefore, the operation instigated by the athletic department and its captive academic advisory service led to hundreds of players getting academic credit from so-called courses that did not meet UNC standards.

UNC is in a heap of trouble.

And, BTW, Roy should be looking for a rental in Florida next winter -- he'll have a lot of time to play golf.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

And, BTW, Roy should be looking for a rental in Florida next winter -- he'll have a lot of time to play golf.
Dollars to donuts Roy is done. Why in the world would he stick around waiting to see what happens and preside over the carnage that seems increasingly likely is coming their way?

I just cannot see the NCAA feeling that much pressure to re-open the investigation and then deciding not to take further action. I hope they give Swofford and the Heels the big middle finger.

[Blue KevIL]

I strongly doubt we'll ever see the NCAA strip of team of a national championship.

Different sport: Men's Volleyball
Due to NCAA rules violations, both Hawaii (2002) & Lewis University (IL) (2003) vacated a Division I National Championship.
Not the same, I know...

Also, it would have been interesting to see if Memphis had won the 2008 National Championship instead of Kansas whether the NCAA would have stripped Memphis of the title.

[Kedsy]

Well, maybe. But UNC is a flagship public institution, and the rules for them are just different. UNC athletics is too big to fail in a way that Syracuse and Duke simply aren't.

People say stuff like the above all the time, but do we really have any solid evidence that it's true?

After the Syracuse (and to a lesser extent, Weber State) penalties, if UNC gets off easy it could cause a major rebellion. Of course, if UNC gets hit hard it could cause a rebellion as well, just a rebellion of a different kind.

[gumbomoop]

Between these penalties and the Weber State penalties in November, the NCAA is putting themselves in a very difficult position. Now they either have to absolutely bury UNC or, in comparison with the other penalties, they have to give a jaywalking ticket to a mass murderer. Either way, looks like the end of the world, far as inter-collegiate athletics goes.


... if UNC gets off easy it could cause a major rebellion. Of course, if UNC gets hit hard it could cause a rebellion as well, just a rebellion of a different kind.

Kedsy, I think you've made a big assertion here, a prediction really, and twice now in this thread, so you have my attention. I don't disagree, as I've not thought through the implications of the NCAA's quandary. Though I can make out the general outlines of the 2 different rebellions, I'd welcome further elaboration of your "end of the intercollegiate athletics world" prediction, whether metaphorical or (and especially) if meant literally. I ask this seriously, as I infer that you're serious about the heretofore unthinkable bombshells in the offing, possibly sooner rather than later.

If everyone else reading this thread knows exactly what you mean and further that you are exactly correct, well, I still require educating. So, help?

[porkpa]

I really don't believe that Boeheim is directly involved in the abuses of the program - emphasis on the word "directly".
He strikes me as a person who is neither smart, nor one who has the motivation or the work ethic to be either behind or complicit in the chicanery that has occurred under his watch. He comes across as being more concerned about when his next round of golf will take place, than whether his kids are complying with the rules of the NCAA.
I think the direct causes of what has occurred at Syracuse University can be found in the large number of powerful and wealthy SU alumni, especially those who are directly or indirectly involved in sports. Just my less than humble opinion.

[porkpa]

He reminds me both in appearance and demeanor of the Mad Magazine icon Alfred E Newman - "What me Worry"

[Duke76]

Kedsy, I think you've made a big assertion here, a prediction really, and twice now in this thread, so you have my attention. I don't disagree, as I've not thought through the implications of the NCAA's quandary. Though I can make out the general outlines of the 2 different rebellions, I'd welcome further elaboration of your "end of the intercollegiate athletics world" prediction, whether metaphorical or (and especially) if meant literally. I ask this seriously, as I infer that you're serious about the heretofore unthinkable bombshells in the offing, possibly sooner rather than later.

If everyone else reading this thread knows exactly what you mean and further that you are exactly correct, well, I still require educating. So, help?

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/unc/article12871076.html

Ole Roy says the junk you guys are talking about is impacting his recruiting, according to him there's been "a lot of junk going the last 3 years" its the ncaa's fault I can't get anyone to visit

[elvis14]

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/unc/article12871076.html

Ole Roy says the junk you guys are talking about is impacting his recruiting, according to him there's been "a lot of junk going the last 3 years" its the ncaa's fault I can't get anyone to visit

As the NCAA drags its feet it's been my hope that the cheating would negatively impact recruiting. Reading this article it seems as though that's finally happening. Hopefully the trend continues. It would be good to see UNCheats slowly erode while the NCAA stalls and then see them hit hard (harder than Syracuse just got hit) once the NCAA gets permission to act from whoever really pulls the $trings.

One other thing of interest....at no time does Roy or UNC take any responsibility for the "junk".

[Duke76]

I read it as meaning just the opposite. There was a huge rogue operation at UNC over many, many years to subvert "academic integrity." No one in academics at UNC determined that courses created and graded by an administrative assistant and with no contact with a recognized professor or instructor were allowed. Therefore, the operation instigated by the athletic department and its captive academic advisory service led to hundreds of players getting academic credit from so-called courses that did not meet UNC standards.

UNC is in a heap of trouble.

And, BTW, Roy should be looking for a rental in Florida next winter -- he'll have a lot of time to play golf.

sage, in support of your statement this article today from AP on Syracuse pretty much sums it up, http://www.thereporter.com/general-news/20150306/ncaa-suspends-coach-jim-boeheim-for-syracuse-violations and this quote from it pretty much sums up why UNC is gonna get it worse,

"In its decision, the committee specifically addressed academic integrity.

"Improper institutional involvement and influence in a student's academic work in order to gain or maintain eligibility is a violation of NCAA rules and a violation of the most fundamental core values of the NCAA and higher education," the committee wrote."

Is that not exactly what UNC did over x number of years?

[OldPhiKap]

sage, in support of your statement this article today from AP on Syracuse pretty much sums it up, http://www.thereporter.com/general-news/20150306/ncaa-suspends-coach-jim-boeheim-for-syracuse-violations and this quote from it pretty much sums up why UNC is gonna get it worse,

"In its decision, the committee specifically addressed academic integrity.

"Improper institutional involvement and influence in a student's academic work in order to gain or maintain eligibility is a violation of NCAA rules and a violation of the most fundamental core values of the NCAA and higher education," the committee wrote."

Is that not exactly what UNC did over x number of years?

Exactly. And, you know the NCAA is aware that whatever they say will be used just like everyone is doing -- applying it to the biggest case still out there.

Da bomb is coming.

[MulletMan]

As the NCAA drags its feet it's been my hope that the cheating would negatively impact recruiting. Reading this article it seems as though that's finally happening. Hopefully the trend continues. It would be good to see UNCheats slowly erode while the NCAA stalls and then see them hit hard (harder than Syracuse just got hit) once the NCAA gets permission to act from whoever really pulls the $trings.

One other thing of interest....at no time does Roy or UNC take any responsibility for the "junk".

Why would he take responsibility? He didn't, know a dad gum thing about this junk!

But seriously. I don't want uNC to get the death penalty or anything close to it. I actually can't believe Duke fans do either. Here's what you want.... You want a bunch of wins vacated, maybe a banner or two taken down from the rafters in the Smith center (they can keep the 3rd place NIT banners up) and you want them to go on playing and being our rival. Do you know why? So we can keep beating them. And then, on the occasions when we don't beat them, any time some smug uNC fan starts to talk a little smack about the win, we will be able to shut them the hell up by calmly saying something along the lines of, "yeah...that was a heartbreaking loss as a Duke fan. Fortunately, I had a big piece of the vacated 2005 national title banner to dry my tears with. Glad I could find a use for an otherwise useless piece of cloth."

Drop the mic. End of discussion. No more talk of Weber St and Harold Arceneaux. The public condemnation of "The _________Way" would be the perfect thing to shut that fan base up forever.

That's what you want. Not and end to the greatest rivalry in college sports. Yes, 82-50 is fun, but so is 92-90.

[OldPhiKap]

Why would he take responsibility? He didn't, know a dad gum thing about this junk!

But seriously. I don't want uNC to get the death penalty or anything close to it. I actually can't believe Duke fans do either. Here's what you want.... You want a bunch of wins vacated, maybe a banner or two taken down from the rafters in the Smith center (they can keep the 3rd place NIT banners up) and you want them to go on playing and being our rival. Do you know why? So we can keep beating them. And then, on the occasions when we don't beat them, any time some smug uNC fan starts to talk a little smack about the win, we will be able to shut them the hell up by calmly saying something along the lines of, "yeah...that was a heartbreaking loss as a Duke fan. Fortunately, I had a big piece of the vacated 2005 national title banner to dry my tears with. Glad I could find a use for an otherwise useless piece of cloth."

Drop the mic. End of discussion. No more talk of Weber St and Harold Arceneaux. The public condemnation of "The _________Way" would be the perfect thing to shut that fan base up forever.

That's what you want. Not and end to the greatest rivalry in college sports. Yes, 82-50 is fun, but so is 92-90.


Let's assume that the NCAA "only" does to UNC what it did to Syracuse -- (1) void all wins where there was a tainted player; and (2) give pretty harsh scholarship limitations on each sport for four years. I forget the exact years that Wainstein found, but something like 1993-2011 seems to be my rough memory. That might void the following National Championships:

Men's Basketball -- 1993, 2005, 2009 (three of five, Helms not included)
Women's Basketball -- 1994 (only one)
Field Hockey -- 1995, 1996, 1997, 2007, 2009 (five of six)
Mens' Soccer -- 2001, 2011 (only two)
Women's Soccer -- 1993, 1994, 1996, 1997, 1999, 2000, 2003, 2006, 2008, 2009 (eleven of eighteen)

So the question is -- if UNC had to void twenty one national championships, all the wins associated with those players, and get severe scholarship limitations on each program (plus other affected ones without championships, like football and baseball) -- would that be considered "adequate"?

I would think so.

And remember, that's taking away wins from Dean; all of Gut's wins; all of D'oh's wins; and the vast majority of Roy's wins. Let alone a huge chunk of Sylvia's wins. Plus at least four years of suckitude in each sport, probably for even longer. Plus losses (I would assume) of Roy and other successful coaches.

That would be brutal -- all before even considering a fine. And I don't see how the NCAA avoids that, unless they find a statute of limitations bars some of it (Although fraud and concealment usually waive the running of S/Ls in normal circumstances).

I go back to my prior post. I think this is the minimum the NCAA can do, and frankly I'm okay with that.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

sage, in support of your statement this article today from AP on Syracuse pretty much sums it up, http://www.thereporter.com/general-news/20150306/ncaa-suspends-coach-jim-boeheim-for-syracuse-violations and this quote from it pretty much sums up why UNC is gonna get it worse,

"In its decision, the committee specifically addressed academic integrity.

"Improper institutional involvement and influence in a student's academic work in order to gain or maintain eligibility is a violation of NCAA rules and a violation of the most fundamental core values of the NCAA and higher education," the committee wrote."

Is that not exactly what UNC did over x number of years?
Yes. The amazing thing in all of this is U*NC's unbelievable degree of denial. They are so delusional about the cheating that have convinced themselves that the fake classes, independent studies, grade changes, etc., were all part of an academic scheme that was designed to benefit students at large and athletes simply happened to benefit as well. They cannot fathom that it happened in exactly the opposite way even though every bit of evidence demonstrates the genesis of the scandal to be purely athletic in nature. Do they really believe Crowder, Nyangoro, Boxill, et al, did what they did for the benefit of the entire student body? It would appear they have deluded themselves into thinking this is the case. Syracuse is going to end up being nothing more than an appetizer for the NCAA as compared to the four course meal they are going to make out of UNC.

[OldPhiKap]

Yes. The amazing thing in all of this is U*NC's unbelievable degree of denial. They are so delusional about the cheating that have convinced themselves that the fake classes, independent studies, grade changes, etc., were all part of an academic scheme that was designed to benefit students at large and athletes simply happened to benefit as well. They cannot fathom that it happened in exactly the opposite way even though every bit of evidence demonstrates the genesis of the scandal to be purely athletic in nature. Do they really believe Crowder, Nyangoro, Boxill, et al, did what they did for the benefit of the entire student body? It would appear they have deluded themselves into thinking this is the case. Syracuse is going to end up being nothing more than an appetizer for the NCAA as compared to the four course meal they are going to make out of UNC.

If I was a UNC grad, wouldn't I feel worse if it was an academic issue that devalues my degree?

I think you are exactly right. I just don't think those folks are alum. I know a former baseball player from UNC (mid-80's grad) and he is livid about the whole thing.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

If I was a UNC grad, wouldn't I feel worse if it was an academic issue that devalues my degree?

I think you are exactly right. I just don't think those folks are alum. I know a former baseball player from UNC (mid-80's grad) and he is livid about the whole thing.
It's incredible that UNC leaders continue to be willing to sacrifice the integrity and (former) good name of the university just to protect their sports banners. Mind boggling.

[arnie]

Yes. The amazing thing in all of this is U*NC's unbelievable degree of denial. They are so delusional about the cheating that have convinced themselves that the fake classes, independent studies, grade changes, etc., were all part of an academic scheme that was designed to benefit students at large and athletes simply happened to benefit as well. They cannot fathom that it happened in exactly the opposite way even though every bit of evidence demonstrates the genesis of the scandal to be purely athletic in nature. Do they really believe Crowder, Nyangoro, Boxill, et al, did what they did for the benefit of the entire student body? It would appear they have deluded themselves into thinking this is the case. Syracuse is going to end up being nothing more than an appetizer for the NCAA as compared to the four course meal they are going to make out of UNC.

If we all live long enough to actually see any NCAA penalties, I think this Board and other conference fans will be hugely disappointed and disenfranchised. For all we know, NCAA has hired Jim Martin as a consultant to interpret their findings. I'm confident the Chapel Hill machine will keep this thing away from men's bball. Yes a few Hatchell or soccer wins could be vacated, but nada for Old Roy. His junk comments give us an insight into his confidence that nothing significant will affect his legacy.

[OldPhiKap]

It's incredible that UNC leaders continue to be willing to sacrifice the integrity and (former) good name of the university just to protect their sports banners. Mind boggling.

Academicians worry about integrity. Administrators worry about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

Guess who is running the show.

[bob blue devil]

Why would he take responsibility? He didn't, know a dad gum thing about this junk!

But seriously. I don't want uNC to get the death penalty or anything close to it. I actually can't believe Duke fans do either. Here's what you want.... You want a bunch of wins vacated, maybe a banner or two taken down from the rafters in the Smith center (they can keep the 3rd place NIT banners up) and you want them to go on playing and being our rival. Do you know why? So we can keep beating them. And then, on the occasions when we don't beat them, any time some smug uNC fan starts to talk a little smack about the win, we will be able to shut them the hell up by calmly saying something along the lines of, "yeah...that was a heartbreaking loss as a Duke fan. Fortunately, I had a big piece of the vacated 2005 national title banner to dry my tears with. Glad I could find a use for an otherwise useless piece of cloth."

Drop the mic. End of discussion. No more talk of Weber St and Harold Arceneaux. The public condemnation of "The _________Way" would be the perfect thing to shut that fan base up forever.

That's what you want. Not and end to the greatest rivalry in college sports. Yes, 82-50 is fun, but so is 92-90.

i think this transcends our sports rivalry, which i've greatly enjoyed and i'd be very sad to see go. but what unc has done is terribly wrong, it was brazen, they did it unashamedly, and they have expressed effectively no remorse. their culture is unchanged. the culture of sports coming at the expense of academics (and integrity) deeply bothers me. that culture is still alive and well at unc and at many other schools; if the ncaa needs to give unc the death penalty so that they have no choice but to realign the culture around academics (and integrity), having athletics taken away, so be it.

what frustrates me the most is that unc, and all schools, have a clearly articulated mission. unc's is here (http://www.unc.edu/about/mission/). punchline:
The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the nation’s first public university, serves North Carolina, the United States, and the world through teaching, research, and public service.
i just don't understand how any member of its board, its administration, and so forth can claim they've been faithful to their mission at any point during and in any manner relating to this scandal.

ultimately, i want this fixed because i care about unc - i have many wonderful friends connected to their institution, i have many great memories on their campus, and i have adopted the state as a home. i don't like seeing that institution as the poster child for what is wrong with intercollegiate athletics.

[Henderson]

sage, in support of your statement this article today from AP on Syracuse pretty much sums it up, http://www.thereporter.com/general-news/20150306/ncaa-suspends-coach-jim-boeheim-for-syracuse-violations and this quote from it pretty much sums up why UNC is gonna get it worse,

"In its decision, the committee specifically addressed academic integrity.

"Improper institutional involvement and influence in a student's academic work in order to gain or maintain eligibility is a violation of NCAA rules and a violation of the most fundamental core values of the NCAA and higher education," the committee wrote."

Is that not exactly what UNC did over x number of years?

The committee quote above sounds to me like a deliberate shot over the bow of UNC-CH's foundering ship, not just a precedent. They've described exactly the situation at Chapel Hill.

I don't know their demographic or enrollment/alum status, but a significant contingent at IC is sticking to one of two points: (1) UNC-CH will skate, because it did nothing wrong or at least nothing unusual; or (2) UNC-CH isn't accused of doing all the things Syracuse got plugged for, so UNC-CH's penalty (if any) will be much less.

But if the central charge against you is that you've violated the most fundamental core values of the NCAA and higher education, and the evidence is overwhelming, documented, and incontrovertible, you're got a whoopin' coming.

Spending time over at IC always makes me hear in my head the way Lewis Black says the word, "dee-loooo-sional."

[OldPhiKap]

The committee quote above sounds to me like a deliberate shot over the bow of UNC-CH's foundering ship, not just a precedent. They've described exactly the situation at Chapel Hill.

I don't know their demographic or enrollment/alum status, but a significant contingent at IC is sticking to one of two points: (1) UNC-CH will skate, because it did nothing wrong or at least nothing unusual; or (2) UNC-CH isn't accused of doing all the things Syracuse got plugged for, so UNC-CH's penalty (if any) will be much less.

But if the central charge against you is that you've violated the most fundamental core values of the NCAA and higher education, and the evidence is overwhelming, documented, and incontrovertible, you're got a whoopin' coming.

Spending time over at IC always makes me hear in my head the way Lewis Black says the word, "dee-loooo-sional."

Exactly. The NCAA knows that whatever it says, the elephant in the room is the pending UNC decision.

[dudog84]

I don't want the death penalty. Too draconian, let them play in shame (as a "University", the current kids have nothing to do with it).

I want the ill-gotten gains removed. Wins (and therefore championships across multiple sports) vacated. That will be painful to those (fans, coaches, staff, and administrators) who think nothing was done wrong and therefore tacitly approved the scam. Money from those post-season tournaments returned.

I've never been a fan of reduced scholarships. Due to "trickle-down", there will be kids down the line who will not receive a scholarship and may not go to school. For example with Syracuse, that's 3 kids that won't go to Syracuse but will be going to, say, "Weber State". But they're taking someone else's spot.

A multiple-year post-season ban is much more effective in my view. There will be kids that still want to play for that school, but they won't be the same caliber of recruits.

There has to be a strong dis-incentive to this ever happening again anywhere. Not that there won't be shenanigans in the future, but the scale of what was done at UNC is staggering.

[sagegrouse]

Academicians worry about integrity. Administrators worry about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

Guess who is running the show.

Count me as a rosy-cheeked believer in the goodness of the human race and the perfectibility of mankind. Well, that's an exaggeration. Nevertheless, I think the UNC Board, whose individual members appear to be horribly embarrassed by this stuff happening on their watch, is taking this very seriously. After all, the Board hired Wainstein. And Carol Folt, while giving lip-service to the athletic "party line," has a mission to clean this mess up and make sure it doesn't happen again.

But we'll see.

Oh, and philosopher and ethicist Jan Boxill says 'Hi!"

[gumbomoop]

Exactly. The NCAA knows that whatever it says, the elephant in the room is the pending UNC decision.

As does Jay Bilas, apparently. If any of you missed the first 10 minutes of ESPN's GameDay on ESPNU, you can and should catch it coming right up at 11:00 on ESPN. Discussing Boeheim, you could almost see every Bilas objection to the Syracuse penalties as an unsubtle reference to what, in Jay's opinion, should not happen to Roy.

His rant came perilously close to justifying fully the "I didn't know" defense. Jay is on record as a prominent member of the "I Believe Roy" club. It was a little disconcerting to find Jay W making more sense than Jay B. Bilas twisted himself into some embarrassing knots, though I appreciate that he's not embarrassed about it at all. Jay B is awfully articulate, but if you parse his sentences on this one, you'll find the hint of a pause or 2 where you can see him thinking real hard. Not his finest 10 minutes. Straw men galore.

Decide for yourself. 11:00 ESPN, first 10 minutes. [Still possible they'll discuss Roy specifically, as this GameDay originates from the DD.]

[Henderson]

Jay may be right that Roy didn't know, but that just points to a lack of institutional control. Meet Mr. Rock and Mr. Hard Place.

[gumbomoop]

In my post above, I assumed that the 10 a.m. GameDay would be repeated at 11. I haven't watched the program in many weeks, but I thought that's how ESPN did it.

But now I'm watching the beginning of the 11 a.m. version, and it's not a repeat. I trust, nevertheless, that you'll have opportunities in the future to hear Bilas defend Roy. Focus on the passive construction: "Yes, mistakes were made at UNC [assuming Jay even agrees with Folt that "shameful things happened"], but that doesn't mean Roy is responsible."

[78Devil]

I think one thing the NCAA might do to distinguish Syracuse from UNC is note that the bad behavior on the fake classes originated with the athletic department in the former case, and was taken advantage of (but I don't think originated) with the athletic department in the latter. I don't think there should be a distinction, but dancing on the head of a pin is what they are good at. Nonetheless, its hard to believe given what they did to Syracuse that they will do nothing at all to UNC.

One thing to note -- I want UNC to have some punishment, but it does no good to Duke to have a significantly crippled rival and a weakened ACC. I for one hope that the penalties are less than what they gave Syracuse.

[gumbomoop]

Update--

Now watching 11 a.m. (live) GameDay. Here comes Jay B. His comments get applause from UNC fanatics. Amazing straw men from Bilas. Embarrassing.

If any of you out there are watching, and I'm unfairly characterizing Jay B's verbal/logical gymnastics, please chime in.

Jay Williams talks accountability, while Jay Bilas talks about coaches burdened by impossible expectations. In the earlier GameDay, Jay B's most embarrassing straw man was that coaches shouldn't be expected to check the footnotes on his players' papers.

I agree with Jay B: if the NCAA removes either banner because Roy failed to check footnotes, it's an outrage.

[NYBri]

As does Jay Bilas, apparently. If any of you missed the first 10 minutes of ESPN's GameDay on ESPNU, you can and should catch it coming right up at 11:00 on ESPN. Discussing Boeheim, you could almost see every Bilas objection to the Syracuse penalties as an unsubtle reference to what, in Jay's opinion, should not happen to Roy.

His rant came perilously close to justifying fully the "I didn't know" defense. Jay is on record as a prominent member of the "I Believe Roy" club. It was a little disconcerting to find Jay W making more sense than Jay B. Bilas twisted himself into some embarrassing knots, though I appreciate that he's not embarrassed about it at all. Jay B is awfully articulate, but if you parse his sentences on this one, you'll find the hint of a pause or 2 where you can see him thinking real hard. Not his finest 10 minutes. Straw men galore.

Decide for yourself. 11:00 ESPN, first 10 minutes. [Still possible they'll discuss Roy specifically, as this GameDay originates from the DD.]

I got no insight from that segment. If Bilas' argument is correct that you should only take responsibility for your own actions, then doesn't the reverse apply? Then no coach should take credit for wins, since the players are the ones on the court.

I did note that they led the segment with Rasheed and went on to Syracuse ... no mention of UNC.

[Kedsy]

Kedsy, I think you've made a big assertion here, a prediction really, and twice now in this thread, so you have my attention. I don't disagree, as I've not thought through the implications of the NCAA's quandary. Though I can make out the general outlines of the 2 different rebellions, I'd welcome further elaboration of your "end of the intercollegiate athletics world" prediction, whether metaphorical or (and especially) if meant literally. I ask this seriously, as I infer that you're serious about the heretofore unthinkable bombshells in the offing, possibly sooner rather than later.

If everyone else reading this thread knows exactly what you mean and further that you are exactly correct, well, I still require educating. So, help?

OK, here's my take, which is completely opinion and not based on any inside information. The NCAA seems to be on somewhat thin ice lately. Lawsuits, allegations, football schools threatening to break off and start their own association, etc. There have been a lot of public doubts as to whether the organization has (or should have) relevance in the modern world, and by extension serious questioning of its ability and/or right to govern and discipline its current members.

If UNC gets off easy, then how will the mid- and low-majors (which make up the vast majority of the member institutions) react, comparing the hard penalties Weber State got (for academic fraud relating to four players in one season) to UNC's massive fraud and lesser penalties? How will the USCs and Syracuses (which make up the vast majority of the remaining member institutions) react to getting hammered so much worse than the school that perpetrated the worst academic/athletic fraud in NCAA history? Assuming the rumbles are right and schools are questioning the NCAA's right to govern them, you'd have to think it has a decent chance of leading to the end of the NCAA (and thus the end of college sports as we know it today). Obviously something would take its place, but who knows what? Or how long it would take? Or what disruptions it would cause?

On the other hand, if UNC gets hit as hard as it deserves, proportionally harder than, e.g., Weber State and Syracuse, the few schools that make the big money could react in fear -- they don't need the NCAA to make their money, why would they allow the NCAA to kill their programs and take away their livelihoods? They could secede from the NCAA (as the football schools are threatening to do anyway), which would neuter the NCAA as far as football is concerned and kill the golden goose of the NCAA tournament as well. Overall, from the viewpoint of college sports, probably a worse outcome than the rebellion outlined in the paragraph above.

So that's what I meant in my earlier posts. Not saying it will definitely happen, but from a logical standpoint it seems like a classic damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't scenario.

[W&LHoo]

I think you guys are (understandably) coming down harder on UNC than the facts warrant.

The athletic staff at Carolina seems to have conspired with one or more professors to artificially manufacture academic success for their players. That seems to me to be essentially what happened at Cuse too. The reports I've seen basically showed that folks associated with the basketball team at Syracuse were actually posing as players via email and completing assignments.

The only real difference is that we're supposed to believe that profs at Cuse didn't have any idea. I don't buy it.

Carolina will get something that's tougher than what Cuse got, but only because the wrongdoing went on longer and they didn't self report. It'll be a multi-year loss of scholarships and they'll have wins vacated. And I think that'll be basically the right thing - and sad.

Ultimately, I hope these examples communicate to coaching staffs that these kinds of shenanigans just aren't worth it.

[Henderson]

I think one thing the NCAA might do to distinguish Syracuse from UNC is note that the bad behavior on the fake classes originated with the athletic department in the former case, and was taken advantage of (but I don't think originated) with the athletic department in the latter. I don't think there should be a distinction, but dancing on the head of a pin is what they are good at. Nonetheless, its hard to believe given what they did to Syracuse that they will do nothing at all to UNC.

One thing to note -- I want UNC to have some punishment, but it does no good to Duke to have a significantly crippled rival and a weakened ACC. I for one hope that the penalties are less than what they gave Syracuse.

1. The bad behavior at UNC-CH also originated in many instances with the athletic department.
2. The ACC doesn't need UNC-CH to be strong in order for the conference to be strong. Too many other good teams/programs. The ACC would be fine even if UNC-CH were required to sit out a couple years, either by the death penalty or a significant weakening penalty.
3. Syracuse was penalized for a different package of violations than UNC-CH has committed. That suggests that UNC-CH receive a different package of sanctions. Characterizing them as "more" or "less" onerous seems like an abstraction. They'll be different and (in my view) significant.
4. If UNC-CH is forced to take banners down but is not limited in scholarships going forward, is that lesser or greater than what Syracuse got? I for one will see the banner question (i.e. the vacating of wins question) as the touchstone for whether UNC-CH received just punishment. Post-season bans, recruiting restrictions, and loss of schollys feel like window-dressing to me. Just take down those banners that were the product of cheating, and I'm OK.

BTW, I share the view with others that the death penalty is not where this is going. No way. And it's not that UNC-CH is "too big to fail" but rather there are lesser penalties that will seem more just to the NCAA. And to me, though they probably won't ask my view.

[NYBri]

They opened with an observation with which I agree.

They noted that Tony Bennett and UVA have joined the "elite" rank of ACC basketball for the foreseeable future. As long as TB is there and he can recruit well to his system, the Hoos will be a force. Has a few decades to join the historical elite ranks, but point well made.

[wsb3]

Jay may be right that Roy didn't know, but that just points to a lack of institutional control. Meet Mr. Rock and Mr. Hard Place.

The song remains the same,(or at least mine) Not knowing is not a valid excuse & while Jay may honestly believe Ol Roy did not know I for one respectfully disagree.

I really like Jay Bilas but I don't get his support of Roy and not because I expect him to be a homer. I don't want that. But because it does not add up. He did that big interview with Roy & all those players who showed up in his defense & that what McCants said was not their experience.

As many of us have written here on DBR and McCants said as well. "Fine. Show your transcripts."

To my knowledge none have chosen to do so.

Most UNC fans I know have chosen not to read the events that have transpired at UNC over a long period of time. Deny, deflect, & hope none of those banners come down seems to be all that matters.

[gumbomoop]

I think you guys are (understandably) coming down harder on UNC than the facts warrant.

The athletic staff at Carolina seems to have conspired with one or more professors to artificially manufacture academic success for their players. That seems to me to be essentially what happened at Cuse too. The reports I've seen basically showed that folks associated with the basketball team at Syracuse were actually posing as players via email and completing assignments.

The only real difference is that we're supposed to believe that profs at Cuse didn't have any idea. I don't buy it.

Carolina will get something that's tougher than what Cuse got, but only because the wrongdoing went on longer and they didn't self report. It'll be a multi-year loss of scholarships and they'll have wins vacated. And I think that'll be basically the right thing - and sad.

Ultimately, I hope these examples communicate to coaching staffs that these kinds of shenanigans just aren't worth it.

For me, there's something of a disconnect between your first sentence and the remainder of your post. For the penalties you propose -- and describe as "tougher than what Cuse got" -- are substantial, warranted by the facts. And if, as you predict, wins are vacated, would said wins included NCAAT Final wins? And if so, your first sentence becomes ever more puzzling.

[gurufrisbee]

TWO questions:

Is the game right now against NC St Syracuse's last game of the season?

If the punishment for Syracuse was THIS bad, then won't the punishment for NC be like twice as bad when the NCAA gets around to them?

[gumbomoop]

TWO questions:

Is the game right now against NC St Syracuse's last game of the season?

If the punishment for Syracuse was THIS bad, then won't the punishment for NC be like twice as bad when the NCAA gets around to them?

1. Yes

2. No one knows, and don't know when we'll know. Weeks, months, years?

[brevity]

There are now, and perhaps forever, two sets of numbers: official wins and unofficial wins*.

Jim Boeheim (and his supporters) will probably keep that unofficial number* in mind moving forward. Before the NCAA hammer, I figured he would pass the 1,000-win mark during the 2016-2017 season. Unless he decides the nice round number is not worth the hassle, he will stick to that schedule and pursue legal channels to restore his win total.

By then there will be a 4-digit number and a 3-digit number. Which number is official depends on the legal results. If Boeheim's wins are restored, then his detractors will cling to that unofficial 3-digit number*.

[Bostondevil]

Exactly, What do you tell these other schools that have been hammered, if you go lightly on UNC? What do you tell non-Swofford-led conference commissioners?

What I would tell those other schools is - leave the NCAA. If enough of them band together and say punishment fits the crime or we are out of here, then the punishment will probably fit the crime.

However, I do not want to see UNC basketball get the death penalty. What!?! Really!?!

Yes, really. I was a graduate student at SMU when their football program was shut down. Their football program has never recovered, not really. And the entire university community suffered, even those of us who never went to an SMU football game. I would not wish what happened at SMU to happen to any other university. The death penalty was a one time experiment that failed, IMHO.

So, for selfish reasons, I want the best rivalry in sports to continue and it can't continue if UNC Basketball ceases to exist as we know it.

But yeah, they gotta get something and it's gotta be harsh.

[Duvall]

What I would tell those other schools is - leave the NCAA. If enough of them band together and say punishment fits the crime or we are out of here, then the punishment will probably fit the crime.

You think that the actions of UNC and other cheating institutions will be *less* egregious in a regime run by ESPN and conference commissioners? Good luck with that.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

If I was a UNC grad, wouldn't I feel worse if it was an academic issue that devalues my degree?

I think you are exactly right. I just don't think those folks are alum. I know a former baseball player from UNC (mid-80's grad) and he is livid about the whole thing.

The absurd gathering of former basketball players immediately after this broke who all defended their academic records notwithstanding, I have found the silence to be rather deafening. If I were (God forbid) a basketball player or football player who LEGITIMATELY earned my degree during that period of time, I would be apoplectic. Knowing that I had worked hard to get my degree and that for the rest of my working career employers would see my credentials and snicker would leave me angry beyond words.

The fact that we HAVEN'T heard a lot of this leads me to make the leap that there might just not be very many of these instances.

Additionally, put me in the camp of the NCAA being in an impossible position regarding UNC's punishment. If they do anything short of throw the book at them with penalties, vacated wins/banners, scholarship removals, and postseason bans, they have outed themselves as ineffectual in the most clear of instances. However, if they bring the hammer down as they ought against one of the biggest revenue schools in their portfolio, they truly run the first of the "Big Five" breaking from the NCAA and forming some sort of Wild West Lawless-But-Wildly-Lucrative new organization. Bringing the NCAA full-circle to being ineffectual.

It's a watershed moment, to be sure.

[Henderson]

Additionally, put me in the camp of the NCAA being in an impossible position regarding UNC's punishment. If they do anything short of throw the book at them with penalties, vacated wins/banners, scholarship removals, and postseason bans, they have outed themselves as ineffectual in the most clear of instances. However, if they bring the hammer down as they ought against one of the biggest revenue schools in their portfolio, they truly run the first of the "Big Five" breaking from the NCAA and forming some sort of Wild West Lawless-But-Wildly-Lucrative new organization.

Are you assuming that the schools of the Big Five conferences would side with UNC-CH if the NCAA came down with hard sanctions?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Are you assuming that the schools of the Big Five conferences would side with UNC-CH if the NCAA came down with hard sanctions?

I guess I am. Put me in the camp that sees sports heading in that direction regardless - the Big Five have been rattling their sabers and grumbling for awhile, and I think that there are enough "schools" that would see severe punishment of UNC as a great excuse to hop the fence and leave the NCAA behind. Then, it's giant TV contracts, living stipends, jersey sales, agents... dogs and cats living together.

I would love to be wrong, but I am jaded enough to think it's coming sooner rather than later. At that point, I will cease to follow college sports.

[Olympic Fan]

I'd just like to put in a plea to be patient with the NCAA.

They ARE investigating North Carolina right now ... and as we all know, NCAA investigations move slowly. The Syracuse case that was just closed dragged on for eight years. That's unusual, but 2-3 years is fairly normal. And this is a huge, complex case.

Is there reason to think the NCAA will act decisively to publish North Carolina? My understand is that this investigation is much more -- shall we say skeptical -- of UNC than the 2010-11 probe. NCAA president Mark Emmett's reaction to the Wainstein Report makes it seem so:

“Just based on the Wainstein report, this is a case that potentially strikes at the heart of what higher education is about,” Emmert told The Associated Press. “Universities are supposed to take absolutely most seriously the education of their students, right?
“I mean that’s why they exist; that’s their function in life. If the Wainstein report is accurate, then there was severe, severe compromising of all those issues, so it’s deeply troubling. … It’s absolutely disturbing that we find ourselves here right now.”

Let's wait until the NCAA presents its findings before trashing the organization. Like Duvall, I believe any post-NCAA landscape would be a huge step back --- it would free the big money schools to basically do what they want and to get away with anything and everything.

PS Whatever UNC gets, it will not be the Death Penalty. That will never be levied again. But I believe it will result is massive probation, forfeiture of hundreds of wins (and maybe several banners) and at least a two-year postseason ban. If it's much less than that, they'll I'll join you in the NCAA bashing.

[Duvall]

Are you assuming that the schools of the Big Five conferences would side with UNC-CH if the NCAA came down with hard sanctions?

Why wouldn't they? That's where ESPN and the money will be.

[Henderson]

Why wouldn't they? That's where ESPN and the money will be.

But that's true now.

What would a set of severe sanctions on UNC-CH add to the mix? Unless we're assuming that either (a) they are looking for an excuse to leave the NCAA; or (b) they think that UNC-CH's practices should be permitted.

The Big 5 may have their own financial reasons for cutting the NCAA loose, but I don't think sanctions on UNC-CH are likely to tip the balance. I just can't see them saying collectively, "But we all want to do what UNC-CH did, so let's find a home where it's not considered cheating."

[Turk]

The Syracuse situation is not resolved, so I think it's premature to extrapolate what will (if anything) might happen to unc. Syracuse plans to appeal, and I happen to think they will get some of the sanctions reduced. The NCAA has caved under pressure before, and I bet it will happen again.

This all assumes the NCAA knows what it's doing, instead of just throwing stuff up on the wall to see what sticks. They are in desperate need of any action that makes them look good, after all the screw-ups they've made over the past few years. An example is when the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania sued the NCAA over the Penn State fine, and the NCAA had to reveal emails about how they went about deciding the entire set of Penn State sanctions. They deliberately went high, expecting Penn State to counter and negotiate. Expect Syracuse to do the same thing.

I don't understand all the fuss about the vacated wins; it's a toothless and overrated punishment. Sure, Boeheim was closest to Coach K in the win count, but they're not replaying the games, they're not giving the ticket money back to the fans, and the networks aren't getting any TV money back. The only people who care are the media who find it easier to count things rather than actually think.

Like most corporate entities, to understand the NCAA, just follow the money. Buried in the fine print of the Syracuse sanctions is the statement that the NCAA is also fining then the amount of all their tournament money for the years with the ineligible players. I'd like to know what that number is.

It appears Syracuse got no credit for self-reporting, and the long drawn-out investigation was just silly. Suspending Boeheim for some games (how did they come up with 9? Why not 8? Why not 12?) is a new move, I'll give the NCAA credit for being creative on that.

My guess is that the wins will stay gone (yawn), the NCAA will take most of the tourney money, Boeheim gets some unpaid time off, and Syracuse will get some schollys back.

We can re-evaluate the unc situation later. Probably years later.

[Tjenkins]

Something else to consider in re UNCCH's punishment vs. Syracuse:

Remember Boeheim has been convicted (for lack of a better word) of NCAA violations multiple times, going back at least 20 years. Outside of Syracuse and its fanbase, he's hardly a beloved figure. Boeheim is generally seen as a weasel at best or a cheater at worst. Roy Williams, rightly or wrongly, has always been considered a "good guy" in the eyes of the sports media. I know the Heels' violations, if proven, go beyond basketball, but I'm sure that will be taken into account. I'm not saying it should, but it will.
As for the victories record:
If Boeheim breaks the wins record, I don't think it well celebrated very much outside the Syracuse fanbase, since many of his victories are already seen as tainted. I don't like him or his program, but I won't lose sleep if he surpasses Coach K.

[sagegrouse]

The Syracuse situation is not resolved, so I think it's premature to extrapolate what will (if anything) might happen to unc. Syracuse plans to appeal, and I happen to think they will get some of the sanctions reduced. The NCAA has caved under pressure before, and I bet it will happen again.

This all assumes the NCAA knows what it's doing, instead of just throwing stuff up on the wall to see what sticks. They are in desperate need of any action that makes them look good, after all the screw-ups they've made over the past few years. An example is when the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania sued the NCAA over the Penn State fine, and the NCAA had to reveal emails about how they went about deciding the entire set of Penn State sanctions. They deliberately went high, expecting Penn State to counter and negotiate. Expect Syracuse to do the same thing.

I don't understand all the fuss about the vacated wins; it's a toothless and overrated punishment. Sure, Boeheim was closest to Coach K in the win count, but they're not replaying the games, they're not giving the ticket money back to the fans, and the networks aren't getting any TV money back. The only people who care are the media who find it easier to count things rather than actually think.

Like most corporate entities, to understand the NCAA, just follow the money. Buried in the fine print of the Syracuse sanctions is the statement that the NCAA is also fining then the amount of all their tournament money for the years with the ineligible players. I'd like to know what that number is.

It appears Syracuse got no credit for self-reporting, and the long drawn-out investigation was just silly. Suspending Boeheim for some games (how did they come up with 9? Why not 8? Why not 12?) is a new move, I'll give the NCAA credit for being creative on that.

My guess is that the wins will stay gone (yawn), the NCAA will take most of the tourney money, Boeheim gets some unpaid time off, and Syracuse will get some schollys back.

We can re-evaluate the unc situation later. Probably years later.

As OF said, this is a complicated case and will take time to resolve.

But in another sense it is simple: the UNC Board of Governors engaged Cadwalader Wickersham and Taft to investigate the problems and allegations regarding the AFAM (the term then) department and athletes. What resulted is now called here the Wainstein Report.

NCAA then asks UNC, "Do you accept the findings of the report you commissioned?"

UNC says, "Yes," or at least I think it does. The response will have to come through Chancellor Carol Folt and maybe even the BOG. It ain't Bubba, Larry and Roy's call.

The NCAA has a lot of other threads to follow, including the references in Wainstein that went beyond AFAM (Boxill, Philosophy, etc.). This will take some time.

[Henderson]

As OF said, this is a complicated case and will take time to resolve. **** This will take some time.

Now that's a shame.

[Bostondevil]

You think that the actions of UNC and other cheating institutions will be *less* egregious in a regime run by ESPN and conference commissioners? Good luck with that.

Well, since I'm thinking the leavers would more likely be the Cleveland States of the world, who says ESPN would want them?

Hmm, if the Big Five leave because of the punishments against UNC and the smaller conferences leave because they would rightly feel the are second class when it comes to the rules, I see the NCAA ceasing to exist as we know it. Which is probably going to happen anyway.

They will have to do something to UNC, figuring out what is probably what is going to take awhile.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Well, since I'm thinking the leavers would more likely be the Cleveland States of the world, who says ESPN would want them?

Hmm, if the Big Five leave because of the punishments against UNC and the smaller conferences leave because they would rightly feel the are second class when it comes to the rules, I see the NCAA ceasing to exist as we know it. Which is probably going to happen anyway.

They will have to do something to UNC, figuring out what is probably what is going to take awhile.

Well, they would lose... 85%? 95%? of their revenue, so....

[roywhite]

Well, since I'm thinking the leavers would more likely be the Cleveland States of the world, who says ESPN would want them?

Hmm, if the Big Five leave because of the punishments against UNC and the smaller conferences leave because they would rightly feel the are second class when it comes to the rules, I see the NCAA ceasing to exist as we know it. Which is probably going to happen anyway.

They will have to do something to UNC, figuring out what is probably what is going to take awhile.

That may be UNC's strategy, keep delaying and hope the NCAA falls apart before their penalties come.

Another version of Dean's 4-corner late game delay.

[dudog84]

I don't understand all the fuss about the vacated wins; it's a toothless and overrated punishment. Sure, Boeheim was closest to Coach K in the win count, but they're not replaying the games, they're not giving the ticket money back to the fans, and the networks aren't getting any TV money back. The only people who care are the media who find it easier to count things rather than actually think.

I disagree. I think fans care about wins/championships and where that puts their program in the pantheon of the sport. I think they care a lot. If UNC men's basketball has to vacate wins from 1989 to 2011, I imagine that's close to 450-500 wins. That knocks them from the #3 team to way out of the top 10 and possibly even out of the top 20. Take 3 national championships with that and they go from tied for 3rd all-time to one of a dozen with 2 or more (and those over 30 years ago, ancient history to a large number [anyone under 35?] of their fans). They become tied with NC State for ACC Championships (wouldn't that be rich?).

I don't think it would tip the balance of Duke-UNC wins, but we would be a lot closer and with the damage to their program we could probably pass them in the near future.

That stuff matters a lot to the UNC faithful. There would be some exploding heads.

And I think the program cares too. I imagine the stuff in my first paragraph goes a long way on the recruiting trail.

P.S. re the 9-game suspension, those are ACC games and that is half a season.

[andyw715]

SU's response defense.
http://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/257928579

[Acymetric]

I'd just like to put in a plea to be patient with the NCAA.

They ARE investigating North Carolina right now ... and as we all know, NCAA investigations move slowly. The Syracuse case that was just closed dragged on for eight years. That's unusual, but 2-3 years is fairly normal. And this is a huge, complex case.

Is there reason to think the NCAA will act decisively to publish North Carolina? My understand is that this investigation is much more -- shall we say skeptical -- of UNC than the 2010-11 probe. NCAA president Mark Emmett's reaction to the Wainstein Report makes it seem so:

“Just based on the Wainstein report, this is a case that potentially strikes at the heart of what higher education is about,” Emmert told The Associated Press. “Universities are supposed to take absolutely most seriously the education of their students, right?
“I mean that’s why they exist; that’s their function in life. If the Wainstein report is accurate, then there was severe, severe compromising of all those issues, so it’s deeply troubling. … It’s absolutely disturbing that we find ourselves here right now.”

Let's wait until the NCAA presents its findings before trashing the organization. Like Duvall, I believe any post-NCAA landscape would be a huge step back --- it would free the big money schools to basically do what they want and to get away with anything and everything.

PS Whatever UNC gets, it will not be the Death Penalty. That will never be levied again. But I believe it will result is massive probation, forfeiture of hundreds of wins (and maybe several banners) and at least a two-year postseason ban. If it's much less than that, they'll I'll join you in the NCAA bashing.

Just a thought about the long 8 year period for Syracuse, and the other poster commenting that they received no credit for self-reporting. Is it possible Syracuse self-reported, but pulled a *nc and tried to say "look, here's what we did" while hurriedly sweeping things under the rug? I ask because if the people involved were legitimately cooperative there is no way the investigation could have or would have lasted 8 years. My take is the NCAA felt they were being stonewalled and rather than throw their hands up and punish based on what had been shared they stood pat and waited for someone to slip and get enough information to make a real decision. That would also explain why they didn't value the self-punishment perhaps. Just food for thought, as I can't imagine many other scenarios that would cause the investigation to be 8 years in the making.

The possible lesson? Self-report and be honest, we'll hit you but not as hard as you might deserve and maybe just a slap on the wrist. Self-report as a distraction from the real problems in hopes that we won't notice? We will nail you.

[TexHawk]

Does anybody really think that if the investigation of UNC was done/sanctions agreed to, they would announce them right now? Cuse was done for the year anyway, the timing wasn't an issue. UNC will be playing tonight, next weekend, and the weekend after that in (arguably) the biggest weekends of the year for NCAA hoops. Love em or hate em, UNC gets ratings.

Given that they aren't a juggernaut, the NCAA would just be hoping for a 1st or 2nd weekend loss, then hope it dies out until the announcement. Of course, there is the chance that they go on a run, make the Final 4 or better, then it's just *awkward* everywhere.

To be clear, I don't think the NCAA is done with anything. I just think it is possible that they slow-played the investigation a bit, "Hey guys, don't go nuts on them until mid-April, at the earliest. We need the TVs for the next few weeks."

[Eternal Outlaw]

The Syracuse situation is not resolved, so I think it's premature to extrapolate what will (if anything) might happen to unc. Syracuse plans to appeal, and I happen to think they will get some of the sanctions reduced. The NCAA has caved under pressure before, and I bet it will happen again.

This all assumes the NCAA knows what it's doing, instead of just throwing stuff up on the wall to see what sticks. They are in desperate need of any action that makes them look good, after all the screw-ups they've made over the past few years. An example is when the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania sued the NCAA over the Penn State fine, and the NCAA had to reveal emails about how they went about deciding the entire set of Penn State sanctions. They deliberately went high, expecting Penn State to counter and negotiate. Expect Syracuse to do the same thing.

I don't understand all the fuss about the vacated wins; it's a toothless and overrated punishment. Sure, Boeheim was closest to Coach K in the win count, but they're not replaying the games, they're not giving the ticket money back to the fans, and the networks aren't getting any TV money back. The only people who care are the media who find it easier to count things rather than actually think.

Like most corporate entities, to understand the NCAA, just follow the money. Buried in the fine print of the Syracuse sanctions is the statement that the NCAA is also fining then the amount of all their tournament money for the years with the ineligible players. I'd like to know what that number is.

It appears Syracuse got no credit for self-reporting, and the long drawn-out investigation was just silly. Suspending Boeheim for some games (how did they come up with 9? Why not 8? Why not 12?) is a new move, I'll give the NCAA credit for being creative on that.

My guess is that the wins will stay gone (yawn), the NCAA will take most of the tourney money, Boeheim gets some unpaid time off, and Syracuse will get some schollys back.

We can re-evaluate the unc situation later. Probably years later.

18 game conference season means 9 is a half conference season suspension.

[SoCalDukeFan]

I have not read the report on Syracuse and do not all of the violations. But from what I have read it looks like minor league compared to unch-ch. I mean its one thing to turn in a sham paper in a class, but its another to have sham classes and to fill your entire semester with sham classes.

In case you have not noticed unc-ch has a talented team this year with non-seniors who will probably not go to the NBA. Next year they will be very good. Would be a shame if they are on probation.

SoCal

[BD80]

SU's response defense.
http://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/257928579

Can you imagine a similar reply from unc regarding its transgressions?

What is the longest document ever written?

[Turk]

SU's response defense.
http://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/257928579

Thanks very much for posting this. Syracuse is not going down without a fight...

My favorite part:


Allegation No. 12—Unapproved Appearances at Charity Events (2004-2007)

The University discovered and self-reported to the NCAA that between 2004 and 2007, some student-athletes appeared at promotional and charity events without signing an adequate release or obtaining prior approval. These violations were inadvertent and procedural in nature. Years ago, the University clarified its approval forms and has instituted new procedures that will ensure compliance with this rule going forward.

Allegation No. 13—Participation in Outside Competition (2005)

The University discovered and self-reported this violation to the NCAA. A women’s basketball student-athlete participated in an unauthorized charity basketball game, in violation of NCAA rules. The purpose of the game was to raise money for worthy charities, and the student-athlete received no financial or other benefit for participating. She did not participate in NCAA-sanctioned competition following the violation.

Allegation No. 14—Extra Benefits (Transportation) by Syracuse Staff (2004-2005)

The University discovered and self-reported these violations to the NCAA, but the violations were extremely minor. Two student-athletes were given impermissible complimentary transportation. These rides enabled one student-athlete to volunteer for a non-profit organization and allowed the other student-athlete to attend class.

"The horror... The horror..."

(P.S. How many wins are they taking from the women's team, again? I think I missed that part of the sanctions...)

[Henderson]

Given the precedential value of the NCAA's take-down of Boeheim and Syracuse, you KNOW who's pulling for Syracuse in these appeals.

Jay Bilas.

Jay is not a fan of punishing the head coach for things he didn't know personally. The NCAA is on a slightly different path, disapproving the "my head was in the sand" defense.

But Jay's a lawyer. He should understand the concept of vicarious liability and why it exists.

[SoCalDukeFan]

As someone married to an USC alum I actually find the Syracuse penalties to be interesting. Going forward Syracuse loses this year's post season which was self imposed and they were not going to do much anyway, 9 games with JB not on the bench which is not that big a deal, and 3 scholarships for 4 years. Now this year Coach K started with 10 scholarship players and is down to 8 and doing quite well. JB favors a short bench so he should be able to live with 10 scholarships. Losing the wins in the past may hurt, but the fans who enjoyed those wins had the enjoyment. I think its a good thing that the NCAA did not severely penalize current and future players.

USC was given a two year (I think) post season ban. Enough scholarships were taken away that depth was a major factor and even this year they will not be at full strength. As I posted earlier the USC violations IMHO were much less severe than Miami's but the penalties were much more. Don't expect the NCAA to penalize the uncheaters in a proportional manner to Syracuse.

SoCal

[Tom B.]

As a uconn fan, I will admit wholly there was some "envy" if you will while Calhoun gets lambasted, Boeheim gets praised while having what amounts to similar issues. So to some degree I'm "happy" that Boeheim got his as well (e.g. everyone complained that they didn't want uconn in the ACC because of the "issues" but nobody balked at syracuse's similar issues).




Well, the penalties levied against Syracuse drop Boeheim below Calhoun on the all-time wins list, so I guess there's some karmic justice for you. :)

Of course, if Boeheim sticks around and has a decent season next year (once he's done serving his suspension), he could pass Calhoun again. He's only 15 back (858 to 873). A good season next year, or two half-decent seasons, and Boeheim would pass Rupp and Dean again, too. He needs 19 wins to re-pass Rupp and 22 to re-pass Dean.

Boeheim needs 45 wins to re-pass Knight -- that's at least two more seasons, probably three given the suspension and likely harm to Syracuse's competitiveness caused by the scholarship reductions, so it's less clear that he'll get back to that level.

[uh_no]

Well, the penalties levied against Syracuse drop Boeheim below Calhoun on the all-time wins list, so I guess there's some karmic justice for you. :)

Of course, if Boeheim sticks around and has a decent season next year (once he's done serving his suspension), he could pass Calhoun again. He's only 15 back (858 to 873). A good season next year, or two half-decent seasons, and Boeheim would pass Rupp and Dean again, too. He needs 19 wins to re-pass Rupp and 22 to re-pass Dean.

Boeheim needs 45 wins to re-pass Knight -- that's at least two more seasons, probably three given the suspension and likely harm to Syracuse's competitiveness caused by the scholarship reductions, so it's less clear that he'll get back to that level.

He turns 71 this year. He looks like he has a ton of energy and passion, so I can see him going on for a while, but he can't go on forever. calhoun bailed after coaching a last year so he could serve his suspension (3 games?) I wouldn't be shocked if jimmy B did the same...I'd put him at 2-3 more years max, if he wants to pass the general again.

you figure 15 next year, 20-25 the year after, then another half season to get there.

[Duke79UNLV77]

There's been a lot of comparison between the scope of the academic fraud at UNC and Cuse, and rightfully so, but what about the other extra benefits on which the NCAA already has ruled? The rental cars seem like a bigger benefit that what the Cuse players received, and to me would seem more visible to the coaches. The NCAA penalized Hairston and halfway penalized McDonald, but what's the justification for no penalty to the program, given the penalty to Cuse?

[Channing]

Pardon me if this has been discussed, but SU has a stud freshman coming in next year - Malachi Richardson. Was there any mention as to whether recruits are able to back out given the sanctions? I don't think we would pursue him all that hard since we are pushing hard for Ingram, but was just curious.

[oldnavy]

Jim Boeheim didn't win a lot of support from the media by blowing off the post game interview the other day. I just heard some guys on Sirius XM skewer him, and came just short of calling him a coward....

If he stays around, it ain't going to be a smooth trip for him given the sanctions and ill will he has cultivated recently.

[MChambers]

Jim Boeheim didn't win a lot of support from the media by blowing off the post game interview the other day. I just heard some guys on Sirius XM skewer him, and came just short of calling him a coward....

If he stays around, it ain't going to be a smooth trip for him given the sanctions and ill will he has cultivated recently.

Reports are that the Syracuse administration instructed him to miss the post game.

[FerryFor50]

Thanks very much for posting this. Syracuse is not going down without a fight...

My favorite part:


Allegation No. 12—Unapproved Appearances at Charity Events (2004-2007)

The University discovered and self-reported to the NCAA that between 2004 and 2007, some student-athletes appeared at promotional and charity events without signing an adequate release or obtaining prior approval. These violations were inadvertent and procedural in nature. Years ago, the University clarified its approval forms and has instituted new procedures that will ensure compliance with this rule going forward.

Allegation No. 13—Participation in Outside Competition (2005)

The University discovered and self-reported this violation to the NCAA. A women’s basketball student-athlete participated in an unauthorized charity basketball game, in violation of NCAA rules. The purpose of the game was to raise money for worthy charities, and the student-athlete received no financial or other benefit for participating. She did not participate in NCAA-sanctioned competition following the violation.

Allegation No. 14—Extra Benefits (Transportation) by Syracuse Staff (2004-2005)

The University discovered and self-reported these violations to the NCAA, but the violations were extremely minor. Two student-athletes were given impermissible complimentary transportation. These rides enabled one student-athlete to volunteer for a non-profit organization and allowed the other student-athlete to attend class.

"The horror... The horror..."

(P.S. How many wins are they taking from the women's team, again? I think I missed that part of the sanctions...)

I love the "but it was charity!" defense.

I wonder how many charities Fab Melo donated gold chains to.

[Turk]

The NYT dishes the dirt about the local YMCA where the foul Syracuse transgressions took place.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/10/sports/ncaabasketball/misdeeds-at-syracuse-are-traced-to-unlikely-place-ymca.html?ref=sports&_r=0

All this about $8,300 in walking-around money and a guy who stopped working for the Y in 2006? This is boring. No "Wheels for Heels", no cops, no real estate.

I think the NCAA is piling on because no one likes Boeheim and they've had him in their sights for years.

Evidently, your kids are safer with your parish priest rather than the organized mobsters who run the Y. Is nothing sacred anymore?

[Henderson]

Evidently, your kids are safer with your parish priest rather than the organized mobsters who run the Y.

I don't think slamming Catholic priests or defaming YMCA leadership en masse was necessary for the point you wanted to make about the story you helpfully linked.

[Turk]

I don't think slamming Catholic priests or defaming YMCA leadership en masse was necessary for the point you wanted to make about the story you helpfully linked.

Ah, I forgot to insert the <sarcasm> tags again. Yet another one of my attempts at ironic humor lands with a dull thud on the floor.

Coincidentally enough, the only places I play ball any more in my advanced state of decrepitude is my local Y and the parish where I coach (defining the term very loosely) high school CYO.

Back to my original points: the sanctions applied to Syracuse are out of line with the nature and severity of the offenses, and the NCAA, however well-intentioned some of its leadership may be, continually comes off like a bunch of hypocritical morons.

[Olympic Fan]

Pardon me if this has been discussed, but SU has a stud freshman coming in next year - Malachi Richardson. Was there any mention as to whether recruits are able to back out given the sanctions? I don't think we would pursue him all that hard since we are pushing hard for Ingram, but was just curious.

The rule-of-thumb is that players are allowed to leave a program without penalty if a postseason ban will extend to the end of their eligibility.

Hence, when a team gets a one-year ban, seniors can leave at will. With a two-year ban, juniors and seniors are free to go.

In this case, there are no postseason bans (beyond the year that Syracuse self-imposed). Nobody in the program, including recruits, will be allowed to leave without the normal transfer rules applying. And the ACC has been death on in-conference transfers over the years -- usually imposing a two-year wait before they can play. I know Michael Gbinije beat that, but he transferred just before 'Cuse got in the league.

[DarkstarWahoo]

The rule-of-thumb is that players are allowed to leave a program without penalty if a postseason ban will extend to the end of their eligibility.

Hence, when a team gets a one-year ban, seniors can leave at will. With a two-year ban, juniors and seniors are free to go.

In this case, there are no postseason bans (beyond the year that Syracuse self-imposed). Nobody in the program, including recruits, will be allowed to leave without the normal transfer rules applying. And the ACC has been death on in-conference transfers over the years -- usually imposing a two-year wait before they can play. I know Michael Gbinije beat that, but he transferred just before 'Cuse got in the league.

I don't think that's quite right with regard to recruits. Boeheim (or Hopkins, if he's still delegating) can release a recruit from his LOI, which makes him a "free agent" again, so he could sign anywhere. Whether Duke would then go after him would depend largely on the relationship between K and Boeheim.

[andyw715]

Latest statement by SU Chancellor
re: updated statement on sanctions, appeal, AD, and JB.


http://news.syr.edu/message-from-chancellor-syverud-to-the-university-community-73722/



Oh and 10am JB presser at the Carrier Dome tomorrow. For the past few years NCAA has, like clockwork, decided to release SU investigation information just prior to NCAAT. I guess SU gets to spoil the NCAAT party tomorrow morning with a press release of their own.