MBB: Duke 91, VPI 86 (OT) Postgame Thread

[hurleyfor3]

Discuss here, ick.

[Duke95]

I can't post during games anymore. Too stressful.

[FerryFor50]

Discuss here, ick.

Scoreboard. Next play.

[bbosbbos]

A win is a win.

[gurufrisbee]

Yes, we won. And still I feel like I need a couple showers now to wash that game off of me.

[Troublemaker]

None of our defenses ended up working tonight, so we had to outscore them.

Weirdest winning streak ever. At least our "up" game is coming up next.

[MarkD83]

I expect that there will be a broken nose at the practice tomorrow (later tonight);)

[GGLC]

Nobody ever predict a 25-point win before the game again. You'd think people would learn by now.

[Duvall]

A win is a win.

Ha, no. But it's only one game. One terrible, terrible game. We know Duke can do better.

[Coballs]

Well that was as bad as it gets without actually losing. This would have been a great game to drink each time the announcers mentioned "Lunardi" or "Bracketology"

[wsb3]

Whew..Thank you QC...

This is why I never take a conference game for granted, especially on the road. I know there were many things we did not do well but tell me we did not get VT's A++++ game.

[KandG]

If you can't say anything nice...

Next play.

(OK, Jah dominating so soon after a bad ankle sprain -- very nice. But that's all I got).

[House G]

The good news is that if we get in a situation at the end of a game where we have to miss a free throw on purpose we should be good at it.

[weezie]

A win is a win.

Absolutely. We survived.

[Selover]

Don't get me wrong,I'll take a W any way it comes, but I would have thought Jah setting a career high and Quinn tying his again (if I'm not mistaken) would be a blowout against VT. Kudos to them. I love our resilience post Miami/State.

Maybe overtime was just a way for the Devils to tell me to have an extra beer!

[jacone21]

Sometimes you have to win ugly. I'll take it.

Also, We denied Tony Parker 25 minutes of TV time.

[grad_devil]

A win is a win, indeed.

Remember, UVA only won by 3 in Blacksburg, so while we didn't play well, VT gets up for the bigger games at home.

Next play...

[Danke Shane]

VT made 12 threes tonight, and I would wager that they won't make 12 more for the rest of their season...

[loran16]

Jah had 30 points and a bunch of boards. But he was nearly as awful defensively.

In Man D, their Center was spending every possession on the perimeter and Jah had no clue how to handle that, either guarding him super tightly and allowing a backdoor cut or just sitting in the middle in no man's land. He cannot function in man to man defense against a team that doesn't use their big inside. If they want to defend with him out there, they need to zone and allow 3 attempts.

[BlueDevilBrowns]

The road to securing a #1 seed: Survive and Advance.

On to Syracuse Saturday.

Next play.

[House G]

Why no two for one at the end of regulation?

[NYBri]

The good news is that if we get in a situation at the end of a game where we have to miss a free throw on purpose we should be good at it.

There is that.

[FerryFor50]

A win is a win, indeed.

Remember, UVA only won by 3 in Blacksburg, so while we didn't play well, VT gets up for the bigger games at home.

Next play...

Good point. And VT can actually make a case for UVA being a rival.

[subzero02]

Well that was as bad as it gets without actually losing. This would have been a great game to drink each time the announcers mentioned "Lunardi" or "Bracketology"

Or Kudos...

[hurleyfor3]

The road to securing a #1 seed: Survive and Advance.

Although if that doesn't work, we could try bribing Joe Lunardi. Because according to espn, no one is more important in the world of sports.

[Duke95]

Well that was as bad as it gets without actually losing. This would have been a great game to drink each time the announcers mentioned "Lunardi" or "Bracketology"

That whole Lunardi bracketology crap is sofa king stupid.

[roywhite]

None of our defenses ended up working tonight, so we had to outscore them.Weirdest winning streak ever. At least our "up" game is coming up next.

Well, I believe VaTech was 1 for 8 from the field at the end; we contested the shots late.

Sorry to go against the general theme, but I liked the win. Played a team at it's best, on the road, were down by as much as 8 in the 2nd half, kept our poise, hit key shots, and won the game.

[wilson]

The good: Grind out another one, Okafor looked very good (at least on O), Winslow had some really nice moments, Quinn gave us yet more reasons to trust him in the clutch
The bad: The defense never got off the bus, free throw shooting was maddeningly terrible, Tyus had his worst game in a while, Amile & MP3 quiet again, step back of sorts from Grayson, whole team seemed generally listless

Bottom line: We won a road conference game, never a simple matter, but the performance exposed some alarming issues still in need of fixing with the calendar about to read "March." Chief among those issues: defending penetration and rotating on the perimeter, making friggin' free throws.

[MarkD83]

Coach K...Please play zone the rest of the year

[BlueDevilBrowns]

Sometimes you have to win ugly. I'll take it.

Also, We denied Tony Parker 25 minutes of TV time.

Isn't his announcement ceremony still on?

I mean he must be close to choosing a hat soon, right?

[Kjeffrey]

Jah had 30 points and a bunch of boards. But he was nearly as awful defensively.

In Man D, their Center was spending every possession on the perimeter and Jah had no clue how to handle that, either guarding him super tightly and allowing a backdoor cut or just sitting in the middle in no man's land. He cannot function in man to man defense against a team that doesn't use their big inside. If they want to defend with him out there, they need to zone and allow 3 attempts.

He looks completely lost or disinterested on D. I first noticed it when Duke played Wake and Devin Thomas did anything he wanted. Okafor is a great offensive player for sure but he needs a lot of work on the defensive end.

[ChillinDuke]

Well that was as bad as it gets without actually losing. This would have been a great game to drink each time the announcers mentioned "Lunardi" or "Bracketology"

Now that's a game I could watch...

And play...

- Chillin

[Duvall]

Coach K...Please play zone the rest of the year

Like they weren't shredding the zone? Zones, plural?

[wilson]

That whole Lunardi bracketology crap is sofa king stupid.Gotta get those page views. The only thing dumber than "Bracketology" is Mel Kiper, Jr.

[FerryFor50]

Coach K...Please play zone the rest of the year

So we can leave corner 3s wide open?

No thanks.

Need to mix it up on D and scheme per team.

[Duke95]

Dribble penetration is our weakness. But it's not as though it's somehow simple to address. We start 3 freshmen. Sure, they're superb athletes, but learning defense isn't easy.

[KandG]

Why no two for one at the end of regulation?

The two for one opportunity came with 44 seconds left or so, didn't it? That only gave K nine seconds to get a shot off before the 35 second shot clock got shut off.

[Duke95]

Gotta get those page views. The only thing dumber than "Bracketology" is Mel Kiper, Jr.

Yep. That guy, Lunardi, Bill Walton, and Len Elmore. The four axes of evil.

[MarkD83]

True...but I hate seeing people play "ole D" and giving up layups more than I hate seeing people throwing up outside shots.

[dukelifer]

Did not see the game except the last few minutes of OT. Duke shot 60% - out rebounded tech and shot it well from 3 and Okafor has a career night but the free throw shooting and D continues to be poor. Tyus seemed to have a quiet night. Tech plays well at home and gave UVa all they could handle. Take the win and move on. The boys may not make it back to Durham due to the storm -but Duke's classes are cancelled. Will have lots of time to reflect. Maybe they can rent a gym and shoot free throws all day.

[jipops]

I know I'm supposed to be happy we won an ACC game on the road, but this game really felt like a loss. VT is a terrible offensive team and they lit Duke up. This team is capable of good defensive showings but is very, very prone to letting practically any team fill it up. It's just who this team is and we just have to hope that teams somehow go ice cold against us in March or just the right matchups occur, whatever those may be.

[wilson]

Yep. That guy, Lunardi, Bill Walton, and Len Elmore. The four axis of evil.Mount Gushbore

[weezie]

Good point. And VT can actually make a case for UVA being a rival.

Oh but the hoos so disdain the turkeys. So much!

[pamtar]

Kudos to Buzz Williams on a great, albeit predictable, game plan. That's the best game VT has played all year. It's our second worst.

We really need to work on the zone if it's gonna be effective next month. Our guards (especially Tyus) seemed lost on multiple occasions.

Thought K stuck with the go-to line up expecting a run - never happened. I hate to say it, but taking a L with Grayson and MP3 getting serious minutes might not be a bad thing.

Other than that QC is entering legend mode.

[Channing]

Well that was as bad as it gets without actually losing. This would have been a great game to drink each time the announcers mentioned "Lunardi" or "Bracketology"

I played a drinking game during the game. Take a drink every time Laphonso Ellis made a good point or useful observation. I ended the game stone sober...

[Kjeffrey]

Dribble penetration is our weakness. But it's not as though it's somehow simple to address. We start 3 freshmen. Sure, they're superb athletes, but learning defense isn't easy.

Which is exactly why Duke's defense has been poor in recent years. When some of the most integral players only stay one year it is hard to learn defense. Look at the UVA roster - not tremendous basketball players coming out of high school but they sure can play some defense after a few years with Tony Bennett.

[GGLC]

VT made 12 threes tonight, and I would wager that they won't make 12 more for the rest of their season...

Virginia Tech actually makes a ton of threes against everyone. They're a great shooting team from long distance and they do it a lot.

[roywhite]

Although if that doesn't work, we could try bribing Joe Lunardi. Because according to espn, no one is more important in the world of sports.


That whole Lunardi bracketology crap is sofa king stupid.


Gotta get those page views. The only thing dumber than "Bracketology" is Mel Kiper, Jr.


Yep. That guy, Lunardi, Bill Walton, and Len Elmore. The four axis of evil.

Okay, I'll join in. I'm listening to Mr. Lunardi bloviate during the UCLA game. He (and those listening to him) act like his opinion actually means something. He's not on the committee, folks.

[wilson]

Virginia Tech actually makes a ton of threes against everyone. They're a great shooting team from long distance and they do it a lot.Particularly at home...they make about 45% at Cassell, which would be good for an NBA team.

[House G]

The two for one opportunity came with 44 seconds left or so, didn't it? That only gave K nine seconds to get a shot off before the 35 second shot clock got shut off.

That's right--just throwing it out for discussion.

[rsvman]

If you took a drink every time Ellis said "dribble penetration" you would've been in a coma before halftime.

[jacone21]

Okay, I'll join in. I'm listening to Mr. Lunardi bloviate during the UCLA game. He (and those listening to him) act like his opinion actually means something. He's not on the committee, folks.

They should just cancel the UCLA broadcast and have 2 hours of Lunardi. It's like having a live video feed to Nostradamus.

"If, um, UCLA loses 2 of the next three and, um, Arizona state wins 2 and Oregon loses in the PAC-12 tournament, then UCLA should either be a 5 or 6 seed in the West or South."

It's TV gold, man!

[NYBri]

They pay attention to Lunardi because he's got nothing better to do than know who is Dayton's 4th man off the bench. He sounds important, but most is just noise.

[FerryFor50]

They should just cancel the UCLA broadcast and have 2 hours of Lunardi. It's like having a live video feed to Nostradamus.

"If, um, UCLA loses 2 of the next three and, um, Arizona state wins 2 and Oregon loses in the PAC-12 tournament, then UCLA should either be a 5 or 6 seed in the West or South."

It's TV gold, man!

Lunardi must have naked pictures of John Skipper to get on TV so much.

[ChillinDuke]

Gotta get those page views. The only things dumber than "Bracketology" are Mel Kiper, Jr. and Bill Walton.

Fixed.

- Chillin

[slower]

If you took a drink every time Ellis said "dribble penetration" you would've been in a coma before halftime.

Even if you didn't take a drink, he'd still put you into a coma. What a maroon.

[jgehtland]

Kentucky has played three overtimes against unranked opponents. VT took UVA to the final horn. Free throws are definitely a concern (I'll never know why they weren't simply tripping Okafor every play for the last 3 minutes of regulation and all of overtime).

I think my wife said it best when she said "I am not interested in watching a 3-point contest. They might as well just play horse."

I kept saying toward the end that I was going to punch someone if we shot a 3. Then Quinn hits that dagger from the corner and, well, I didn't punch anybody. Thanks for hitting that one, Q!!!

Hope the team makes it home safe.

[weezie]

They pay attention to Lunardi because he's got nothing better to do than know who is Dayton's 4th man off the bench. He sounds important, but most is just noise.

Imagine wondering what joey brackets thinks about in June?
Blank.

[Troublemaker]

Yay. As of the time of this post, Duke has re-taken the #1 spot in Kenpom's Offensive Rankings. Eat it, Wisconsin!

Now, pay no attention to any other numbers you may see...

[wilson]

Fixed.

- ChillinHeh. I actually kind of like Bill Walton, because a) he pretty much never calls our games, so he has no chance to exacerbate any frayed nerves in me, b) I enjoy wondering what nutty thing he'll say next, and c) he quotes no fewer than 5 Grateful Dead songs per broadcast, which I think is impressive and hilarious. Good basis for a drinking game (or I guess Bill would want it to be a puffing game).

[Ian]

Despite his 30 points, Okafor was a net negative on the floor. His defense was awful tonight. He isn't very good defensively on a normal day, but he was so bad (probably due to the ankle) that K probably should have rested him for another game. We were playing 4 on 5 on the defensive end tonight whenever he was in.

[gcashwell]

Okafor reminded me of Jabari tonight. Great offense, no D.

I still think this team is tough.

[Dukerati]

Tyus Jones was frustratingly passive all game. We achieve much stronger offensive balance with him aggressive and although it's hard to take issue with our offensive performance tonight, I think he predetermined to pass too much. Still, we survived. Next play.

[SCMatt33]

I don't think I've ever seen Jekyll and Hyde defense quite like that before. Duke came out gangbusters in the first 6-7 minutes on defense. They forced turnovers, they rebounded, they only let VT attempt a single 3 pointer, but then the wheels just fell off entirely in a way very reminiscent of last years 10-15 minute long defensive collapses. They gave up 41 points in only 20 possessions over 14 minutes of game time, with VT scoring on 18 of the 20. Even the two stops weren't impressive with Winslow raking a guy across the shoulders on his way to the rim, which was lucky not to be called a shooting foul and then a clanked 3 on the inbounds. The other stop was VT inadvertent.y stepping on the sideline at the end of the half.

After that Duke got back into it with some good D, getting stops on 7 or 12 possessions, before falling right back down again giving up scores on 7 of 9 possessions. Duke then capped off the game with some great defense after the last media timeout. The only bad possession on defense that I noticed in the last 3 minutes and overtime was that open 3 early in the overtime. The bucket to tie in regulation is something you can live with, a mid range jumper on a curl. Other than that they only got some free throws in OT, but none on horrible defensive plays.

The thing I liked is that we know this team is capable of playing decent defense when it wants to. That wasn't the case last year. Twice in the last three games the opponent has had the ball with the shot clock off in a tie game. Duke got the stop both times and won.

The question is going to be can they do it for 6 straight games in March/April. What happens if instead of being tied at 77 when Okafor missed two free throws, Duke is down two? Will they even throw the ball into him? Will they try to come back with shooting like UVA? There's a lot of uncomfortable questions you can ask for a team with this good of a resume, but they also have this good of a resume for a reason. The moment doesn't seem to scare the, and the further along they go, the more they just find ways to win, and you can't question that.

[ChillinDuke]

Okay, I'll join in. I'm listening to Mr. Lunardi bloviate during the UCLA game. He (and those listening to him) act like his opinion actually means something. He's not on the committee, folks.

It's not just that. It's also that I'm convinced his job isn't that hard. 30 or so of the field are locks. The next 30 or so are simple. So is it that hard to identify the next 12-16 teams fighting for 8 spots? I mean c'mon.

I guess enough people are incapable of realizing that that it's worth his having a job. And probably a cushy one [to afford that hair].

- Chillin

[Olympic Fan]

Virginia Tech actually makes a ton of threes against everyone. They're a great shooting team from long distance and they do it a lot.

Sigh, I made that point in the pregame thread ... Virginia Tech is the most prolific 3-point shooting team in the ACC and rank 3rd in 3-point percentage. And Duke is one of the worst ACC teams in defending the 3 (10th in the ACC going into the game).

That's why I found all the pre-game weaufing so annoying.

I hope the up and down nature of our eight-game win streak continues for the rest of the regular season -- have an up game Saturday against Syracuse, have a lackluster home win vs. Wake Wednesday night, then finish with a strong showing at UNC-Cheat.

But we won't last long in postseason with that pattern.

BTW: Hope our team gets back safe and sound ... the blizzard has started in the Triangle.

PS: I say this every year ... don't pay attention to Lunardi until Selection Day ... he's very good at identifying the field on the morning of Selection Sunday ... the farther out from that, the less accurate he gets. At that point, he's not worth listening to ...

[hurleyfor3]

Eat it, Wisconsin!

For most Wisconsinites, this is an invitation, not a threat.

[mr. synellinden]

I played a drinking game during the game. Take a drink every time Laphonso Ellis made a good point or useful observation. I ended the game stone sober...

Laughed out loud at this. Thank you. Needed after that game.

[Coballs]

They pay attention to Lunardi because he's got nothing better to do than know who is Dayton's 4th man off the bench. He sounds important, but most is just noise.


Here's the thing...I don't think he knows Dayton's 4th man off the bench. I'm not sure he can even name a single player on Dayton. All he does is regurgitate teams' resumes and then proclaims his opinion, as if it were fact, of where teams should be seeded if the tournament began today. But not only are his predictions meaningless, come selection Sunday they are usually way off base.

[jv001]

I have to give VT some praise. They shoot the ball very well and can drive to the hoop. Buzz will have this team tournament bound soon. I don't think there's a SEC team that can shoot like that and that's counting UK. However we did give them plenty of open looks. GoDuke!

[roywhite]

I have to give VT some praise. They shoot the ball very well and can drive to the hoop. Buzz will have this team tournament bound soon. I don't think there's a SEC team that can shoot like that and that's counting UK. However we did give them plenty of open looks. GoDuke!

Just my opinion, but I think they have a home court advantage with some weird looking lighting in Cassell Coliseum. Looks to be less illumination and some strange shadows showing up on the court. Worst looking ACC court lighting I've seen since the old "U-Hall" place in Charlottesville.

Props to Quinn Cook for getting the hang of the place, and knocking down huge 3's in the second half (and overtime).

[pamtar]

Sigh, I made that point in the pregame thread ... Virginia Tech is the most prolific 3-point shooting team in the ACC and rank 3rd in 3-point percentage. And Duke is one of the worst ACC teams in defending the 3 (10th in the ACC going into the game).

That's why I found all the pre-game weaufing so annoying.

Totally agree. Once their threes started falling our guys started getting beat off the bounce with the shot fake. Great execution by the Hokies.

[wilson]

Virginia Tech is the most prolific 3-point shooting team in the ACC and rank 3rd in 3-point percentage. And Duke is one of the worst ACC teams in defending the 3 (10th in the ACC going into the game).

That's why I found all the pre-game weaufing so annoying.This. Weauxfing of any kind is annoying and unproductive, but it's especially annoying when it's based on a clear lack of insight or research into our opponent or even our own team.

[g-money]

I played a drinking game during the game. Take a drink every time Laphonso Ellis made a good point or useful observation. I ended the game stone sober...

I'll take the opposite side of this one - I actually appreciated Laphonso's willingness/ability to be more technical than most commentators. It's just the fact the he constantly (and accurately) skewered Duke's D that got old. I'm not sure if that's on us or on him.

I felt bad for Winslow out there. He picked up at least three fouls trying to rotate into the lane to help out a badly beaten Duke perimeter defender. Taking those fouls does show he's a true team player, though.

I think we need Wojo back for the stretch run!

[cptnflash]

Despite his 30 points, Okafor was a net negative on the floor. His defense was awful tonight. He isn't very good defensively on a normal day, but he was so bad (probably due to the ankle) that K probably should have rested him for another game. We were playing 4 on 5 on the defensive end tonight whenever he was in.

I agree with this. As good as his offense was tonight, I think Jah's total lack of defense and very limited rebounding aside from grabbing his own missed shots suggests that he probably should still be sitting.

[wilson]

I agree with this. As good as his offense was tonight, I think Jah's total lack of defense and very limited rebounding aside from grabbing his own missed shots suggests that he probably should still be sitting.Not a bad point, but on the other hand, without his 30, I'm afraid we lose rather embarrassingly tonight. I'd say Okafor's Jekyll/Hyde play was emblematic of a weird and frustrating game all around.

[Duke31122]

K said post game that the lapses on D have come from shortened practices due to the number of players. This concerns me, are we going to get better or continue to get worse? I think this team is great, but with no defense we might run into problems during the tourney. That being said, the struggles on defense really haven't been noticeable until UNC and tonight. They played great against a better Clemson team.

Not to say I doubt these guys. I really love this team, and the brotherhood they have formed over the past few weeks. That is the most important thing to me, that they are playing together as one.

In a nutshell, tonight was VT's national championship game. They won't play another meaningful game the rest of the year. Especially since I don't think they are going to make the ACC tournament. They went all in for one last game, our guys braved the storm and played with poise. That is what we will need in March.

[duke4ever19]

Anybody see cbs sports pic of the V Tech game?

www.cbssports.com and click on the Wednesday college hoops tab.

What's wrong with that picture? :D

[KandG]

The two for one opportunity came with 44 seconds left or so, didn't it? That only gave K nine seconds to get a shot off before the 35 second shot clock got shut off.


That's right--just throwing it out for discussion.


In the NBA, a window that short for a 2 for 1 could be managed because teams can advance the ball after timeouts to halfcourt, plus they're just able to move and make decisions more quickly. In college basketball at the end of a game though, I'm not sure it's advisable.

The point of a two for one is to shoot quickly enough to get the ball back in time for one final opportunity after the opponent has used up their possession. The problem in tonight's case is that Duke would have had to go very quickly, because you had to assume V Tech would have used up virtually all of the 35 second clock at the end of the game, leaving Duke as little time as possible.

Assume Duke needed at least 4-5 seconds after getting the ball after Tech's final possession in regulation, that means Duke would have to shoot within 3-4 seconds at the 44 second mark. Extremely unlikely that Duke gets a good shot with that small a window, from where they were inbounding. Also, Duke used their final timeout at the 44 second mark, meaning they had no timeout to use in the event they got the ball with a few seconds left.

I'm fine with the way it ended up working out, though why K used up all his timeouts so quickly is certainly debatable.

[rsvman]

Wow. Stock photo much?

[Ian]

Not a bad point, but on the other hand, without his 30, I'm afraid we lose rather embarrassingly tonight. I'd say Okafor's Jekyll/Hyde play was emblematic of a weird and frustrating game all around.

Not really, he was so bad on defense that he gave back every point he scored on offense. This game was seriously giving me Vermont flashbacks. I think without him we can still manage a good offensive efficiency (and did in the minutes that he didn't play tonight), plus our defensive efficiency would have been a whole lot better.

[duke4ever19]

Wow. Stock photo much?

This pic was even taken at Cameron because we are wearing the home whites.

Someone over at cbssports decided to not give a gosh darn.

[Duke95]

I played a drinking game during the game. Take a drink every time Laphonso Ellis made a good point or useful observation. I ended the game stone sober...

You chose wisely.

On the other hand, I chose to drink every time VT made a 3.

[cptnflash]

Not a bad point, but on the other hand, without his 30, I'm afraid we lose rather embarrassingly tonight. I'd say Okafor's Jekyll/Hyde play was emblematic of a weird and frustrating game all around.

I'm not sure... obviously it's very hard to directly attribute points allowed to a defensive player (although the NBA is getting close thanks to SportsVu), but I honestly think Jah's defense (including the lack of defensive rebounding) might have been worth -30 points or more tonight. A number of times when our perimeter players got beat, it was because Jah did absolutely nothing on a pick & roll... didn't hedge, didn't contain the ballhandler, didn't drop back to protect the rim... basically just stood there while the perimeter player got screened. Maybe this is a scheme/practice thing as Coach K alluded to in the postgame, but it sure looked to me like it was mostly because Jah was some combination of disinterested, injured, and tired.

I'm not picking on him, even though it sounds like I am. Mostly just agreeing with the previous poster who said that despite his 30 points, Jah was probably a net negative, because he's playing hurt. And if that's the case, I'd rather see him sit for another week, miss the Wake and Syracuse games (even if we wind up losing one of them), and be completely ready when we need him.

[KandG]

I'll take the opposite side of this one - I actually appreciated Laphonso's willingness/ability to be more technical than most commentators. It's just the fact the he constantly (and accurately) skewered Duke's D that got old. I'm not sure if that's on us or on him.


Agree with this...I have found Ellis mildly annoying in the past, but actually thought he was pretty good on some of the finer points of the game, especially toward the end of the game and OT. He did harp on certain things too much, but it certainly wasn't just him harping on Duke's defense -- the ESPN studio crew (one guy was practically screaming "'DUKE CAN'T GUARD! DUKE CAN'T GUARD!") and virtually every national college analyst on twitter was bewildered by how bad Duke's defense was.

Also, I understand everybody is concerned with Okafor's D, and tonight wasn't a shining example. But I expected he would have an especially tough time tonight in his first game back from the layoff (and appreciated that Coach K ran situational defensive lineups late game with Jah out and Amile in). I was much more alarmed at how bad the perimeter defenders were. I'm pretty sure they weren't instructed by the coaching staff to wave capes at the Tech guards and scream "Ole!".

[Duke95]

For most Wisconsinites, this is an invitation, not a threat.

Damn. Last time I saw something that cold, Rivers put one in Zeller's eye.

[brevity]

Gotta get those page views. The only thing dumber than "Bracketology" is Mel Kiper, Jr.

Disagree. Lunardi is a hack. Mel Kiper Jr has two God-given talents: his hair, and a database-like knowledge of past drafts and his involvement in them. His ability to spew information with minimal prompting is fairly impressive. (Bill Simmons has something similar with the NBA, which has given him a career as well, but he lacks analytical depth and can be no more than a talking head.)

The rise of Todd McShay made me wonder if ESPN was preparing for life without having to pay the Kiper, but it seems like they're just doubling down on their second favorite sport: the NFL offseason.

Oh right, the Duke-VT game. Didn't talk about it in chat, not sure why I'd start now.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

The two for one opportunity came with 44 seconds left or so, didn't it? That only gave K nine seconds to get a shot off before the 35 second shot clock got shut off.

Yeah, but we might have won...

[uh_no]

Our KP defense fell through the floor...from 50-60 ish to 81.

The defense hasn't been substantially better than it was before our 3 losses. We just are pulling the games out....which is GOOD, but we can also ask FSU about how that works out over the course of a season.

We're now within spitting distance of our pre-tourney defensive efficiency from last year...and that fact doesn't breed confidence in me at least.

I'm glad we're winning and the offense has been nuts. I hope it continues! We seem to have that go to scoring when we need it. I'm very afraid though, that at least once in 6 games, we'll end up down by double digits and the defense simply won't be able to get enough stops to pull it out. Our current efficiency is easily worse than any pre-tourney number for a team that has won it all.

[CharlestonDave]

Dribble penetration is our weakness. But it's not as though it's somehow simple to address. We start 3 freshmen. Sure, they're superb athletes, but learning defense isn't easy.

I do not remember who said it but the basic point is , that by March they are no longer freshmen. Being freshmen at this stage of the season is no longer an excuse.

[wilson]

I'm not sure... obviously it's very hard to directly attribute points allowed to a defensive player (although the NBA is getting close thanks to SportsVu), but I honestly think Jah's defense (including the lack of defensive rebounding) might have been worth -30 points or more tonight. A number of times when our perimeter players got beat, it was because Jah did absolutely nothing on a pick & roll... didn't hedge, didn't contain the ballhandler, didn't drop back to protect the rim... basically just stood there while the perimeter player got screened. Maybe this is a scheme/practice thing as Coach K alluded to in the postgame, but it sure looked to me like it was mostly because Jah was some combination of disinterested, injured, and tired.

I'm not picking on him, even though it sounds like I am. Mostly just agreeing with the previous poster who said that despite his 30 points, Jah was probably a net negative, because he's playing hurt. And if that's the case, I'd rather see him sit for another week, miss the Wake and Syracuse games (even if we wind up losing one of them), and be completely ready when we need him.So you're saying "that's not meant to be criticism, but it's criticism"? ;)
Seriously, good points from you and Ian on this topic. Jahlil's defense was indeed very bad last night.

[NashvilleDevil]

I just want to 2nd and 3rd those who commented about posters predicting in the pre game thread Duke would win by 20+. Please stop. Even if Duke is a 1 seed do not post in the pre game thread that they will beat their opponent by 30. If you need an outlet for your predictions write it in a journal.

[MarkD83]

I rewatched the end of regulation and overtime and did have flash backs to the last few years where Duke has lost in the first round of the NCAAs. However, I did notice one major difference. When Duke absolutely had to have points they did not rely on a 3 point shot. Either Jah or Justise got the ball down low and ended with a layup. It was VTs ridiculous 3 point shooting that kept them in this game. Duke FTs are still a concern as is the defense but having a go to guy down low is not an issue. This is different than the past few NCAA flame outs.

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

All I can say is that I am glad that I was at a bar watching this one...

[wgl1228]

VT plays UVA this weekend. I predict VT scores 45 or less. Why don't we just pack it in on D like UVA?

[mgtr]

Except when playing Wisconsin, why not just keep Jah under the basket on defense, sort of an anything and 1? That would help stop dribble drives. Fortunately most bigs cannot shoot from outside as well as Kaminsky.

[Duke3517]

Defense, defense, and defense. It is going to kill Duke in March. Way to many wide open shooters yesterday. The combination of Jones and Cook being in there at the same time is scary defensively. Certainly not offensively. Winslow is a shaky defender though too.

Okafor will just have to carry this team come March. Not just in points but with rebounding and presence in the middle. But he can't control Duke's guards from not being able to keep guys in front of them or losing shooters along the perimeter.

[NashvilleDevil]

Defense, defense, and defense. It is going to kill Duke in March. Way to many wide open shooters yesterday. The combination of Jones and Cook being in there at the same time is scary defensively. Certainly not offensively. Winslow is a shaky defender though too.

Okafor will just have to carry this team come March. Not just in points but with rebounding and presence in the middle. But he can't control Duke's guards from not being able to keep guys in front of them or losing shooters along the perimeter.

Okafor was just as bad defensively as the three you mentioned.

[dukelifer]

VT plays UVA this weekend. I predict VT scores 45 or less. Why don't we just pack it in on D like UVA?

If it was just that simple. Virginia is one of the best defensive teams in the country and do what they do better than just about anyone. That said VT is not very good away from home. They almost beat UVa at home when UVa was healthy.

[Saratoga2]

I don't get ESPN3 so missed most of the first half due to the double overtime between Richmond and VCU. When I joined, Duke didn't seem to be able to stop either dribble penetration or the resulting wide open 3 point shooting.


On offense, we had a huge advantage in the paint and exploited it, due to both Jahlil and Justise. Amile continued being a non-factor on offense and his free throw shooting is poor when he gets an opportunity. Quinn came to the rescue again with 5 or 6 three pointers and at least one floater down the stretch. Clearly Quinn, Johlil and Justise carried the team along with a little from Matt. Clearly Matt was in there fighting for the ball and playing defense. It was Quinn who dove to the floor at least twice at the end to secure the ball and the win. Lot of heart from him. As another person has mentioned, Justise rotated down on defense and contested several shots at the end and wound up fouling out as a result. I watched part of the Kentucky game and much of the VCU/Richmond second half and noticed that foouls were not called when the defender went straight up insside, even though bodies got bumped. Justise had all similar ones called against him. I also noted that Tyus was not able to get into the lane, probably because the opposing guards were larger and just as quick.

I thought Matt, Justise and Quinn were playing hard on defense throughout much of the second half. Matt and Justise and big enough and mobile enough to make it hard even for 6'5 guards and small forwards to score over them. Quinn has to stay in front of his man. Remember how well Quinn shut Paige down against UNC. But our defense looked bad overall tonight. Yes, Jahlil didn't seem involved as he should be but Tyus was getting beat a lot and what of Amile? Out team has a long recent history of not being able to stop dribble penetration and also has given up career nights to opposing big guards over several years. Perhapps our last good defensive team was in 2010. What are the underlying reasons.

Basic defensive schemes? We played MTM, 2/3 and 3/2 zones and none seemed to produce solid results.

Small guards? We have had smallish guards for a number of years now, but UCONN won the national championship with two very small guards.

Lack of tough determined players? Justise, Matt and Quinn certainly are all of the above. Maybe we need to toughen up inside.

Communication? It sure seemed like we didn't switch well nor our interior defense did not reac. It was as if there was poor communication.

What else? Frankly, I can't put a name to the issues that clearly trouble our defense and could get us an early departure again. Any ideas?

[Seattle Hoo]

I do not remember who said it but the basic point is , that by March they are no longer freshmen. Being freshmen at this stage of the season is no longer an excuse.

Every announcer in history has said it, as well as millions of fans, but I don't agree. The intensity ratchets up a notch as the season reaches its close. Tournament ball is different than regular season ball. Freshmen have still never experienced those things. They've also never dealt with college teams that have scouted them the way you are scouted for a return match. They are still going through brand new experiences and need to adapt. How will they react to the pressure of the last game of the season in Chapel Hill with tournament seeding on the line?

[duketaylor]

I think I aged an extra 10 years last night. Thanks to those predicting that 80 point victory.

Gonna have to put some Kahlua in my coffee this morning;)

[arnie]

I rewatched the end of regulation and overtime and did have flash backs to the last few years where Duke has lost in the first round of the NCAAs. However, I did notice one major difference. When Duke absolutely had to have points they did not rely on a 3 point shot. Either Jah or Justise got the ball down low and ended with a layup. It was VTs ridiculous 3 point shooting that kept them in this game. Duke FTs are still a concern as is the defense but having a go to guy down low is not an issue. This is different than the past few NCAA flame outs.

Hope you're right, because when I see our D play like this, I think of Lehigh and Mercer. VPI isn't as talented as those teams. Maybe switching up D strategies during our initial tourney game(s) will carry us to sweet 16.

[Tripping William]

Between the D (or lack thereof), the VT, and the snow, I could only think of one word by the end of that game: Vermont.

[fuse]

Glass half full version: we gutted out another tough win, Jahlil looked good in his return.

Glass half empty: we should not have had to have a tough win if we played defense like we have been recently.

Young team, on the road, still learning.

Wasn't an easy game to watch, and we still won.

[Channing]

A key element of Coach K's defense is the ability of the big to hedge a screen. Mason became very good at this. Jahlil is still figuring this out (or, perhaps, isn't even being asked to do this). Without the hedge, the ball handler gets an easy step on his defender, and we are playing catch-up trying to stop the ball. I would love to see this team go to the 2010 defensive style and stop overplaying looking for steals and guarding 6 feet beyond the 3 pt line. There were a number of times our perimeter defenders caused a breakdown because their mark cruised right into the lane.

that said, I am much happier to be analyzing last nights game with a win in the pocket than a loss. However, the smaller mid majors we tend to see in the tournament always seem to have a little scatter-bug type point guard who can break us down quite easily.

[DukeinDC]

Okay, I'll join in. I'm listening to Mr. Lunardi bloviate during the UCLA game. He (and those listening to him) act like his opinion actually means something. He's not on the committee, folks.

Shane Ryan said it well on Twitter: Watching Lunardi is like watching a calculus teacher try to guess how a second grader will answer one of their exam questions. While I agree that we don't need 50 in-game updates on how the seeds are changing based on the results of the next foul shot, on balance, he is far more rigorous and analytic in his approach than the actual committee. And his presence enhances the overall entertainment value at this point in the season because he provides a fairly clear picture of the stakes of various games that otherwise many casual CBB fans may not care about. Plus, if you watch him with a bit of perspective, I'm not convinced his ESPN colleagues - or even he himself - really takes it as seriously as it's portrayed. Part of the value is the comedic element of watching him so thoroughly analyze a process that is far too arbitrary.

Back to Duke - yikes! The 15/16 seeds in the tourney will be more more capable offensively than VPI. I don't remember a team that made a deep run with this huge a vulnerability. Two solutions: Get better at the zone and hope we can win any three point shooting contest. And bring Marshall in more to give up the 5 fouls that Jah is clearly reluctant to take especially on drives to the basket. K let the team off the hook in his post-game comments, alluding to the difficulty of practicing D with 7 guys, but I hope behind the scenes, he, the staff and players have a fire lit to go fix this thing.

[roywhite]

Duke 91, VPI 86 (OT) (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=209908352)

VaTech had 5 players make a 3-pt shot, including 3 who made 3 apiece. We've seen it from own games -- it is very hard to defend a team that has multiple 3-pt shooters who are hot.

In OT, VaTech shot only 1-6, and they missed their last 2 shots in regulation; our defense finally showed up.

Duke shot 11-22 from the FT line, with only one player (Quinn Cook, and barely) shooting better than 50%.

Duke made more steals (7 vs 2) and had more rebounds (31 vs 26)

[Tripping William]

Duke 91, VPI 86 (OT) (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=209908352)

VaTech had 5 players make a 3-pt shot, including 3 who made 3 apiece. We've seen it from own games -- it is very hard to defend a team that has multiple 3-pt shooters who are hot.

In OT, VaTech shot only 1-6, and they missed their last 2 shots in regulation; our defense finally showed up.

Duke shot 11-22 from the FT line, with only one player (Quinn Cook, and barely) shooting better than 50%.

Duke made more steals (7 vs 2) and had more rebounds (31 vs 26)

VPISU shot better guarded (ostensibly) from 3-point range (12-of-22) than Duke shot unguarded from 15 feet (11-of-22). I'm having a hard time letting that sink in.

[akg4y]

Well Syracuse is next. Duke should win by 20 at least. Maybe 30. :)

Seriously though, you guys are all spot on, the defense was awful last night but the number of 3s that they hit was just out of this world. Duke wins by outscoring teams, generally with bursts of 3 pointers or transition buckets. In all 3 games they have lost the opposing team hit a ton of 3s, I think around 10 in each game. The fact that you guys didn't lose this game even with VT making 12 is actually pretty impressive (although there was a no call on that Winslow foul at the end of the regulation). Duke and UVA play so vastly different games it is unbelievable. Duke risks losing if the 3s don't fall for them one game, and UVA risks losing if they run into a team shooting like Duke did against them or like VT did against you... our offense simply cannot make up for a team scoring 30 points in 10 minutes.

Only 1 team wins it all, it just comes down to which team runs into their Achilles heel along the way.

[sagegrouse]

Don't get me wrong,I'll take a W any way it comes, but I would have thought Jah setting a career high and Quinn tying his again (if I'm not mistaken) would be a blowout against VT. Kudos to them. I love our resilience post Miami/State.

Maybe overtime was just a way for the Devils to tell me to have an extra beer!

Watching on VCR delay I missed all but 2:30 of the first half due to the double OT game preceding. Or, was that VCU delay? The basketball gods thought we deserved to see some more Duke hoops.

[weezie]

Watching on VCR delay I missed all but 2:30 of the first half due to the double OT game preceding. Or, was that VCU delay? The basketball gods thought we deserved to see some more Duke hoops.\

All praise to the basketball gods. Nothing like a 9pm overtime game. :eek:

[sagegrouse]

It's not just that. It's also that I'm convinced his job isn't that hard. 30 or so of the field are locks. The next 30 or so are simple. So is it that hard to identify the next 12-16 teams fighting for 8 spots? I mean c'mon.

I guess enough people are incapable of realizing that that it's worth his having a job. And probably a cushy one [to afford that hair].

- Chillin

Coming soon: "The Tournament Selection Committee and Joe Lunardi Are on a Fool's errand." This is all hocus-pocus, with no adequate data to rank teams across conferences. Ho-hum. What's new?

[DUKIE V(A)]

Well, I believe VaTech was 1 for 8 from the field at the end; we contested the shots late.

Sorry to go against the general theme, but I liked the win. Played a team at it's best, on the road, were down by as much as 8 in the 2nd half, kept our poise, hit key shots, and won the game.


I'm with you. We MUST improve our defense, but this team can win a lot of different ways with a lot of different guys doing it. It has the IT factor in close games.

Hoping Grayson's ankle is okay. He is playing quality basketball.

[NM Duke Fan]

A key element of Coach K's defense is the ability of the big to hedge a screen. Mason became very good at this. Jahlil is still figuring this out (or, perhaps, isn't even being asked to do this). Without the hedge, the ball handler gets an easy step on his defender, and we are playing catch-up trying to stop the ball. I would love to see this team go to the 2010 defensive style and stop overplaying looking for steals and guarding 6 feet beyond the 3 pt line. There were a number of times our perimeter defenders caused a breakdown because their mark cruised right into the lane.

that said, I am much happier to be analyzing last nights game with a win in the pocket than a loss. However, the smaller mid majors we tend to see in the tournament always seem to have a little scatter-bug type point guard who can break us down quite easily.

Excellent point, that seems to be a pattern. There are numerous quick guards at many levels of college BB, it is the really good big men who tend to be rarer at the lower levels due to supply.

The perimeter defense is a work in progress, as is Jah's defense. Hopefully some tweaks will accelerate the mending of this achille's.

[sagegrouse]

I have read the thread, and here are a couple of observations:

Until the last few minutes, Duke was playing the game with ankle weights. Lateral movement was bad; the puny Hokis were getting all the loose balls; and our offensive drives were tentative.

Virginia Tech shot incredibly well, and, even if the defense was insufficient, that was still higher than anyone would expect from any team. Don't worry. Next game the Hokis will clank it up big time.

In the second half we caught up with Okafor on the bench. Yes, I agree that he is the best player in the country, but there are problems with our offense when we just work for the pass to the post. I think we need Justise or maybe Grayson to give us some strong penetration and either finish or dish.

[jgehtland]

Duke risks losing if the 3s don't fall for them one game,

This is simply not true this year. Duke risks losing this year if Okafor can be effectively single covered, or the double team is confusing enough to prevent good relocation of the ball, or it is just after Christmas and something funky is going on with the team. The three ball is not our live-by-it-die-by-it component this year. Okafor is (offensively, anyway).


Only 1 team wins it all, it just comes down to which team runs into their Achilles heel along the way.

This, on the other hand, is perfectly true. It is all about the match-ups at tourney time.

I'm finding the panic on the board to be a bit overblown after this game. VT is just like GTech. They have pieces, they are building, they play some people close, then lose in crunch time, and then sometimes get blown out. I know we all want to see Duke dominate their opponents, and we see UVA just beat the snot out of Wake and say "but why not us?" But UVA just snuck out with a victory at FSU last game, won AT HOME by 1 point against the same Wake team three games ago, and got out with 3, 4, and 5 point wins against VT, NCSU and Louisville. UK got away with close games against LSU and UF not two weeks ago, an 8 point win over Vandy, and let's not forget their 3 OTs in two games against Ole Miss and TA&M. Wisconsin just lost to UMD, and barely escaped PSU before that, with an OT win over a horrible Michigan team earlier.

Everybody plays a few like this. The difference for Duke this year is we've got inside play to rely on when we need a bucket. The achilles heel of that inside play is they can't hit a free throw half the time. If anything is going to fell us, that will be it. Otherwise, bring on the 'Cuse! Should be a fun game.

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

I think we are missing the point here. THIS Duke team finds a way to win even when they are playing poorly. That's a quality that Duke teams of the past few years just didn't have. We would have lost this game in each of the last 2 years. But, in each game like this we find a way to pull through. I think we can survive foul trouble, we can survive a bad shooting night, we can survive a bad defensive showing. Down the stretch we just find a way to win. Hopefully that trend continues and it doesn't come and bite us in the butt. I for one am looking forward to seeing what this team can do in the post season, and I am slowly losing my fear of an early out. It will always be there due to recent results, but this team gives me hope.

[Duke76]

Well, I believe VaTech was 1 for 8 from the field at the end; we contested the shots late.

Sorry to go against the general theme, but I liked the win. Played a team at it's best, on the road, were down by as much as 8 in the 2nd half, kept our poise, hit key shots, and won the game.

Have to agree with Roy White....while our defense was lacking for most of the game....down the stretch we got stops, tech shooting reverted to the mean and we made clutch shots down the stretch in bunches...can't say enough about Quinn Cook. The boys are resilient, they are learning how not to get rattled.

[jv001]

I have read the thread, and here are a couple of observations:

Until the last few minutes, Duke was playing the game with ankle weights. Lateral movement was bad; the puny Hokis were getting all the loose balls; and our offensive drives were tentative.

Virginia Tech shot incredibly well, and, even if the defense was insufficient, that was still higher than anyone would expect from any team. Don't worry. Next game the Hokis will clank it up big time.

In the second half we caught up with Okafor on the bench. Yes, I agree that he is the best player in the country, but there are problems with our offense when we just work for the pass to the post. I think we need Justise or maybe Grayson to give us some strong penetration and either finish or dish.

After the game finally came on, one of the first things I noticed was how slow we were on defense. It seemed like Duke couldn't move their feet. I kept thinking about the Wake game last season and how things were going the same way. But this Duke team continues to surprise and amaze me. They woke up and played pretty good defense the last few minutes. Matt Jones did a great job and deserves some praise for his hard work. GoDuke!

[weezie]

... but there are problems with our offense when we just work for the pass to the post...

Especially if it's a bounced pass or a pass that Jah has to bend down for or dribble in tight quarters. On the other hand, how about that OT one-handed catch and stuff as they were pulling into the lead. Our Jah didn't even leave his feet!

[rifraf]

I was fumbling around with my computer during the opening few minutes when we took a big lead, but it felt like Grayson was on the floor being pretty aggressive on defense. They went on a run shortly after he went down on his ankle. We he playing solid minutes during the opening stretch or was I just happening to look up when he was on the court? I really hope he's OK as he's pretty aggressive and disruptive on the defensive end, even if he overreaches for steals a little too much and gets burned sometimes.

[duke79]

I watched most of the game. Obviously, NOT a great game for Duke (although I think VT played quite well, esp. their 3-point shooting) but good to see Duke pull it out at the end. I always say that good (or great) teams find ways to win games that they should maybe lose and it seems we are seeing this with Duke right now. I don't know if it is because of momentum or confidence or some other factor but it seems like in many sports, winning begets winning. I hope this continues for Duke.

[azzefkram]

I like the win but I hate how we got there. There is a reason both Vegas and KenPom had us for a double digit win. VPI is not a good team. If this was a one off I could chalk it up to us having an off night and VPI playing out of their minds. Unfortunately it's been a pattern.

[freshmanjs]

I like the win but I hate how we got there. There is a reason both Vegas and KenPom had us for a double digit win. VPI is not a good team. If this was a one off I could chalk it up to us having an off night and VPI playing out of their minds. Unfortunately it's been a pattern.

it's consistent with many of the other home games Virginia Tech has played.

[flyingdutchdevil]

But arguably our worst defensive showing of the year. That win yesterday brought us from the high 40s in KenPom's defensive efficiency ratings to 81. Holy shnikies! And it's not like VPI is an offensive juggernaut; they are ranked 135 in offensive efficiency! Thank God VT also was completely inept in defense yesterday.

That D was just disgusting across the board. Everyone got beaten - even our so-called "defensive stoppers" (M Jones, Winslow, Jefferson).

[Clay Feet POF]

I just want to 2nd and 3rd those who commented about posters predicting in the pre game thread Duke would win by 20+. Please stop. Even if Duke is a 1 seed do not post in the pre game thread that they will beat their opponent by 30. If you need an outlet for your predictions write it in a journal.


Absolutely agree. What motivates these type posts is it bragging rights to reflect I’m good. But if you’re drastically wrong it doesn’t look good on your posting Resume

[dyedwab]

...and thrilled that we won given how poorly we played. But I'm not sure we learned anything new. Here's what we saw last night:

1) Our defense is incredibly vulnerable to dribble penetration, which become more effective when the other team has multiple good outside shooters

2) Our offense is extraordinarily potent, and can hit score inside from Jah, outside from Quinn and Company, or by driving (last night it was Justise, but it has been Tyus also)

3) Our FT shooting from Justise/Jah/Amile is terrible, and is bad enough that it suggest a late game strategy for opponents in close contests.

4) Our team has become incredibly resilient, finding ways to win when they don't play well. And we appear to have learned things - this game could have gone the way of NC State or Miami, but we arrested the slide

5) Quinn Cook is playing at another level

The one thing that I have really liked over the past few games, but we seemed to get away from last night, was getting quickly into our offense after a missed shot or even a made shot. We walked to ball up court more than I would have like. Our advantage on offense gets even bigger when we don't even let our opponents set up.

I'm not gonna say it was a satisfying win, but I'm gonna say that I could have easily seen us losing and that I'm not sure the teams from the last couple of years would have pulled it out. And watching games in Cassell is a slog.

[NashvilleDevil]

...and thrilled that we won given how poorly we played. But I'm not sure we learned anything new. Here's what we saw last night:

1) Our defense is incredibly vulnerable to dribble penetration, which become more effective when the other team has multiple good outside shooters

2) Our offense is extraordinarily potent, and can hit score inside from Jah, outside from Quinn and Company, or by driving (last night it was Justise, but it has been Tyus also)

3) Our FT shooting from Justise/Jah/Amile is terrible, and is bad enough that it suggest a late game strategy for opponents in close contests.

4) Our team has become incredibly resilient, finding ways to win when they don't play well. And we appear to have learned things - this game could have gone the way of NC State or Miami, but we arrested the slide

5) Quinn Cook is playing at another level

The one thing that I have really liked over the past few gamed, but we seemed to get away from last night, was getting quickly into our offense after a missed shot or even a made shot. We walked to ball up court more than I would have like. Our advantage on offense gets even bigger when we don't even let our opponents set up.

I'm not gonna say it was a satisfying win, but I'm gonna say that I could have easily seen us losing and that I'm not sure the teams from the last couple of years would have pulled it out. And watching games in Cassell is a slog.

Problem was VaTech didn't miss a shot the last part of the first half.

[bluenorth]

As many have already said, an ugly win but a win. I felt that the team kept its composure down the stretch, when it would have been easy to panic and start forcing up shots out of rhythm. Okafor's defence continues to be a puzzle. When an opponent penetrates, it seems as if he often actually backs away, ending up inside the interior semi-circle. This is just a pipe dream, but maybe he'll stick around an extra year to improve his D. It's the job of NBA GMs and their staffs to find the deficiencies in prospects, and you can bet that right now the book on Okafor is that he's a great offensive talent, but that he can't defend the rim. For a guy his size, that's a problem. Will it prevent him being drafted in the top five? No, but it might decrease his perceived value.

Did anyone else wonder about K's use of timeouts in the second half? He seemed to take a couple of them really early, with a lot of time left in the second half of a tight game. Maybe it was to give the players extra rest. Whatever the reasoning was, it worked out.

[Troublemaker]

A key element of Coach K's defense is the ability of the big to hedge a screen. Mason became very good at this. Jahlil is still figuring this out (or, perhaps, isn't even being asked to do this).

It's the bold. All of our bigs are being asked to do different things on the ball screens. Jah mostly retreats, Amile and Justise mostly switch them, and Marshall retreats or hedges depending on the opponent (he retreated against VaTech). The hedge really hasn't been a big part of our defense this season, unlike past seasons.

As an aside, UVA hedges all the time.

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

Absolutely agree. What motivates these type posts is it bragging rights to reflect I’m good. But if you’re drastically wrong it doesn’t look good on your posting Resume

We were supposed to get a posting resume together!?! How come I am always the last to know these things. When is the interview?

[David Bunkley]

You chose wisely.

On the other hand, I chose to drink every time VT made a 3.

I chose to cuss every time VPI hit a 3. Also, yesterday was my best friend's birthday...he went to VPI. So glad we were able to pull out the W.

#GODUKE

[Troublemaker]

I'm finding the panic on the board to be a bit overblown after this game. VT is just like GTech. They have pieces, they are building, they play some people close, then lose in crunch time, and then sometimes get blown out. I know we all want to see Duke dominate their opponents, and we see UVA just beat the snot out of Wake and say "but why not us?" But UVA just snuck out with a victory at FSU last game, won AT HOME by 1 point against the same Wake team three games ago, and got out with 3, 4, and 5 point wins against VT, NCSU and Louisville. UK got away with close games against LSU and UF not two weeks ago, an 8 point win over Vandy, and let's not forget their 3 OTs in two games against Ole Miss and TA&M. Wisconsin just lost to UMD, and barely escaped PSU before that, with an OT win over a horrible Michigan team earlier.

Everybody plays a few like this.

I can dig this sentiment. It strikes me that I am super-confident about the upcoming Syracuse game and feel that Duke will play great against the Orange, and I bet the majority of the people reading this feels the same. I think us Duke fans have learned that with this team, their play -- good or bad -- in any one game will have little bearing on their play in the next game. Certainly, Duke's dominance of Clemson didn't presage that Duke would dominate VaTech.

We know that our team is capable of playing outstanding games. And that's a good feeling. The hope is that Duke can string together more outstanding games than we have been stringing together so far as the season progresses and enters postseason play.

[Andre Buckner Fan]

I'm finding the panic on the board to be a bit overblown after this game. VT is just like GTech. They have pieces, they are building, they play some people close, then lose in crunch time, and then sometimes get blown out. I know we all want to see Duke dominate their opponents, and we see UVA just beat the snot out of Wake and say "but why not us?" But UVA just snuck out with a victory at FSU last game, won AT HOME by 1 point against the same Wake team three games ago, and got out with 3, 4, and 5 point wins against VT, NCSU and Louisville. UK got away with close games against LSU and UF not two weeks ago, an 8 point win over Vandy, and let's not forget their 3 OTs in two games against Ole Miss and TA&M. Wisconsin just lost to UMD, and barely escaped PSU before that, with an OT win over a horrible Michigan team earlier.

Everybody plays a few like this. The difference for Duke this year is we've got inside play to rely on when we need a bucket. The achilles heel of that inside play is they can't hit a free throw half the time. If anything is going to fell us, that will be it. Otherwise, bring on the 'Cuse! Should be a fun game.

I totally agree.

I think everyone should have paid more attention to that UVA/VT game. I expected this one to be very close. Whenever Duke is playing a team we're not playing their record; we're playing their pure potential, so look at the previous games where the teams have played up to their potential and expect that game. I think everyone cringing about the lack of Duke D is forgetting that there was another determined team on the floor last night.

If VT won that game, then they save their season in their own minds. We got the most out of a team, and we still managed to win with a hobbled Okafor and our team not at 100%. I think that's a great win. That's exactly the kind of win you want close to March.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I totally agree.

I think everyone should have paid more attention to that UVA/VT game. I expected this one to be very close. Whenever Duke is playing a team we're not playing their record; we're playing their pure potential, so look at the previous games where the teams have played up to their potential and expect that game. I think everyone cringing about the lack of Duke D is forgetting that there was another determined team on the floor last night.

If VT won that game, then they save their season in their own minds. We got the most out of a team, and we still managed to win with a hobbled Okafor and our team not at 100%. I think that's a great win. That's exactly the kind of win you want close to March.

I'm disagreeing with this line of thinking. Winning a tight game, on the road, against a weaker opponent is nothing to worry about. That I agree with. But giving up 77 points in regulation against a team ranked 135 in offensive efficiency is a massive red flag. It is something to worry about, especially when a mediocre team makes butter out of your defense.

Offense traditionally has a fairly high standard deviation. It can fluctuate if the team doesn't shoot well. Fortunately, he have a 70% shooting center who helps to decrease the volatility. But I guarantee that between now and when he win/lose in the NCAA Tournament, we'll have a poor shooting night. Defense, on the other hand, is historically more consistent. Teams rely on their defense when their offense is looking poor (see UVa. Do you think it's a coincidence that they are destroying the ACC?). I'm not expecting Duke to become a defensive juggernaut this year; that ship sailed long ago. But I'd like to be a decent/mediocre defensive team rather than a poor one. And yesterday we were a horrific defensive team.

[David Bunkley]

If we aren't allowed to predict big wins in games that Vegas has us projected to win by 16, then I don't really understand the point of the Pre-Game thread, other than to relay a little scouting info.

Secondly, our prediction have no affect on the outcome of the game - at least I hope not.

#GODUKE

[Billy Dat]

It's the bold. All of our bigs are being asked to do different things on the ball screens. Jah mostly retreats, Amile and Justise mostly switch them, and Marshall retreats or hedges depending on the opponent (he retreated against VaTech). The hedge really hasn't been a big part of our defense this season, unlike past seasons.
As an aside, UVA hedges all the time.

In general, we have moved from the hedge to the down/ice. K picked this up from Thibs during the summer, the idea is to try and keep the ball on one side of the floor negating the openings in the defense when the ball swings from side to side. The defending guard is basically supposed to stand between the ballhandler and the middle of the court - essentially taking away the ability to be screened, and the big drops down anticipating a drive. I don't understand why, but Jah seems to lack the quickness and instinct to challenge those drives at the rim. Our dreams of a rim protecting big haven't really come true, but he does eat up space and defend other bigs pretty well. With his balky ankle, Jah was also slow to get into position on high screens at the top of the key. But, as many have said, our guards were also just getting beat - Tyus gets beat a lot. Here's Rob Dauster's take:
http://collegebasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/02/26/dukes-defense-once-again-an-issue-as-they-get-taken-to-overtime-by-virginia-tech/

Tyus did have an off scoring night, but he played all 45, as did Quinn.

So, to summarize last night and the season to date:

-Amazing offense
-Freshman NBA talent, including a player-of-the-year candidate
-Incredible Senior Leader/Producer/Big Shot Maker
-Incredible poise and fight, winning close games, OT games, and making huge dramatic comebacks
-Bad defense
-Bad foul shooting

It may give us all heart attacks, but this has been as entertaining a season as I can remember. March looms, the remaining games are precious. Let's just try to focus on the next game and see what happens.

[Andre Buckner Fan]

I'm not expecting Duke to become a defensive juggernaut this year; that ship sailed long ago. But I'd like to be a decent/mediocre defensive team rather than a poor one. And yesterday we were a horrific defensive team.

No one is saying our defense is our strength. But the VT team is perfectly built to expose our defensive liabilities. They're a team that wants to shoot the three and break down the perimeter defense by alternating it with dribble drive penetration. They're sort of like many Duke teams of old, but not as talented (but with a pretty talented coach). That is bad for us. And yet we won.

Why did we win? A) We've got a pretty talented coach of our own. B) We cobbled together creative solutions. And that is how you win in March, it has less to do with stats and figures and a lot more to do with how you react when you get punched in the mouth. We got punched in the mouth at NC State, and we folded up shop for about 10-15 minutes. By the time we woke up again, the game was out of hand. This game was just the same situation, but we kept grinding and grinding and grinding. And that's how you win in March.

Teams don't read stat sheets before and during games. They react to the narrative happening on the floor. And I like this team's toughness. I agree with the several other posters who have said that many other Duke teams would lose this game.

(But Big Jah does need to be in a gym practicing free throws for the next two weeks straight...)

[sagegrouse]

But arguably our worst defensive showing of the year. That win yesterday brought us from the high 40s in KenPom's defensive efficiency ratings to 81. Holy shnikies! And it's not like VPI is an offensive juggernaut; they are ranked 135 in offensive efficiency! Thank God VT also was completely inept in defense yesterday.

That D was just disgusting across the board. Everyone got beaten - even our so-called "defensive stoppers" (M Jones, Winslow, Jefferson).

FDD: Another weakness of the quants: VT was shooting out of their minds, making Duke look like the worst defense on the planet -- not just because VY was hitting shots but because the Hokis had been so lackluster in prior games and, therefore, quantitative rankings took a double hit.

Kindly, Sage

[flyingdutchdevil]

FDD: Another weakness of the quants: VT was shooting out of their minds, making Duke look like the worst defense on the planet -- not just because VY was hitting shots but because the Hokis had been so lackluster in prior games and, therefore, quantitative rankings took a double hit.

Kindly, Sage

I agree that VT shot very well. But how much of that was luck (ie hot hand) vs really poor defense? The vast majority of the 3pt shots were wide open three pointers. Maybe a couple (if that) were guarded, but not that many.

Also, getting into the lane with ease will produce easier shots, and VT did plenty of that. Our inability to deny the dribble penetration led to plenty of easy shots, leading to a higher shooting percentage.

[Neals384]

If we aren't allowed to predict big wins in games that Vegas has us projected to win by 16, then I don't really understand the point of the Pre-Game thread, other than to relay a little scouting info.

Secondly, our prediction have no affect on the outcome of the game - at least I hope not.

#GODUKE

Scouting info can be very helpful. Regardless of the opponent, there's always a dbr-er who follows them more closely than most of us. When they share info about players, schemes, tendencies, I find it very helpful.

[Seattle Hoo]

If we aren't allowed to predict big wins in games that Vegas has us projected to win by 16, then I don't really understand the point of the Pre-Game thread, other than to relay a little scouting info.

Secondly, our prediction have no affect on the outcome of the game - at least I hope not.

#GODUKE

You can use it the way UVA fans use a pre-game thread, to express all your irrational anxieties.

[David Bunkley]

You can use it the way UVA fans use a pre-game thread, to express all your irrational anxieties.

That's really the only thing left, right?

[David Bunkley]

Scouting info can be very helpful. Regardless of the opponent, there's always a dbr-er who follows them more closely than most of us. When they share info about players, schemes, tendencies, I find it very helpful.

I wasn't trying to downplay the importance of good scouting info.

I agree completely.

#GODUKE

[Neals384]

Anybody see cbs sports pic of the V Tech game?

www.cbssports.com (http://www.cbssports.com) and click on the Wednesday college hoops tab.

What's wrong with that picture? :D

Ky did in fact wear white on the road. NCAA investigation pending and will take high priority, pushing UNC academic issues to the back burner.

[Billy Dat]

Luke Winn's Weekly Power Rankings examine each team's defense - he gives Duke a "C"

Grade: C

A.D.E. Rank: 81

Profile: Extended man-to-man with some 2-3 zone

Strengths: Last year's Jabari Parker-led Blue Devils were a grade-D defensive team, but this version might be adequate enough to keep them in the national-title conversation. (Faint praise, but it's the truth: this is an offense-first and -second Duke squad.) ... They're surviving by running opponents off the three-point line in standard, Krzyzewskian fashion, avoiding fouls, mixing in a 2-3 zone....

Read more at:
http://www.si.com/college-basketball/2015/02/26/power-rankings-best-defenses-kentucky-virginia-duke

[Seattle Hoo]

I think everyone should have paid more attention to that UVA/VT game. I expected this one to be very close.

This. The broad outlines of that game followed the same template as the UVA/VT game. Virginia had an 11-point lead early in the first half. Virginia Tech closed to 1-point at halftime and took the lead early in the second half. Virginia eventually took control at the end. Tech did have a chance to tie, but it wasn't a good chance.

Tech is a much more competitive team in that dump of a gym they call home, I think in part because of how bad it is. Elite players get used to playing in nice environs. I think the darkness and dumpiness of Cassell affects the shooting of visiting teams and makes it hard to feel "right." It's the kind of dark, dank environment where mold thrives. It's perfect for Tech.

[DukeDevilDeb]

Okafor was just as bad defensively as the three you mentioned.

Worse, even!

[Neals384]

K said post game that the lapses on D have come from shortened practices due to the number of players. This concerns me, are we going to get better or continue to get worse? I think this team is great, but with no defense we might run into problems during the tourney. That being said, the struggles on defense really haven't been noticeable until UNC and tonight. They played great against a better Clemson team.

Not to say I doubt these guys. I really love this team, and the brotherhood they have formed over the past few weeks. That is the most important thing to me, that they are playing together as one.

In a nutshell, tonight was VT's national championship game. They won't play another meaningful game the rest of the year. Especially since I don't think they are going to make the ACC tournament. They went all in for one last game, our guys braved the storm and played with poise. That is what we will need in March.

Everyone gets an entry to the ACC tournament, unless you have an ex 'cuse.

[Kedsy]

Our current efficiency is easily worse than any pre-tourney number for a team that has won it all.

While this is true, I look at it a little differently. In the past four seasons there have been four teams make the Final Four with pre-t def. eff. of 50+. Two of those teams were at 75+. And once you get to the Final Four, for the most part anything can happen.

That said, I also hope our defense starts to tighten up over the next couple weeks.


VT plays UVA this weekend. I predict VT scores 45 or less. Why don't we just pack it in on D like UVA?

I wish people would stop saying this. There are maybe two teams in the country that play defense like UVa. Why doesn't everyone do it? Well, one reason might be because it's a complicated, difficult-to-implement defense. Virginia should be congratulated for how well they play the packline, but that doesn't mean Duke can just decide to go out and pick it up.


Defense, defense, and defense. It is going to kill Duke in March. Way to many wide open shooters yesterday. The combination of Jones and Cook being in there at the same time is scary defensively. Certainly not offensively. Winslow is a shaky defender though too.

Okafor will just have to carry this team come March. Not just in points but with rebounding and presence in the middle. But he can't control Duke's guards from not being able to keep guys in front of them or losing shooters along the perimeter.

I guess different people see things differently. If we're relying on Jahlil to "carry" us on defense, I don't think it would be very pretty. On the other hand, I think Justise is our most important defensive player and I think he's done a great job on D for most of the season. And while Quinn is not always great on D, he has shown flashes of being a much improved defender (e.g., against Marcus Paige). There have been those who keep repeating that Quinn and Tyus playing together are "scary defensively," but last night notwithstanding, I think our backcourt does just fine on D when our frontcourt is playing proper team defense. (Though obviously that didn't happen for most of last night's game.) People talk about our 2010 team's great defense, but we were susceptible to dribble-penetration then, too. Our frontcourt just rotated so well to help that it didn't matter as much.


I would love to see this team go to the 2010 defensive style and stop overplaying looking for steals and guarding 6 feet beyond the 3 pt line.

The announcers last night said that Duke was one of the top teams in the country at converting steals into transition points. If that's true, then to stop looking for steals might be giving away an important weapon.


Plus, if you watch him with a bit of perspective, I'm not convinced his ESPN colleagues - or even he himself - really takes it as seriously as it's portrayed.

What bothers me about ESPN's coverage is the way they portray Lunardi's predictions as if they were a thing that had intrinsic value. "If Duke loses this game, Joe Lunardi reports they'll fall off the one line..." or "With the win, UCLA has now made Bracketology's last four in..." As if it's an achievement or a hurdle, like falling behind in the conference standings or something. It just drives me crazy the way they report a change in someone's one-month-out projection as if it has independent value. [/rant]


I don't remember a team that made a deep run with this huge a vulnerability.

How exactly would you characterize this "huge vulnerability"? Bad defense? Plenty of teams have made the Final Four (which I assume constitutes a "deep run") with poor defenses. Or are you talking about something more specific?


Will it prevent him being drafted in the top five? No, but it might decrease his perceived value.

What does this even mean? First of all, his perceived defensive weakness isn't going to prevent him from being drafted top one. It's almost a foregone conclusion that he's the top pick in the draft. Second, if a team drafts him first and pays him first draft pick money (which as I understand it, is mandated by the League), then how could his "perceived value" possibly be decreased?


Whenever Duke is playing a team we're not playing their record; we're playing their pure potential, so look at the previous games where the teams have played up to their potential and expect that game.

I really like the way you phrased this. A very interesting way to look at it.

[lotusland]

If we aren't allowed to predict big wins in games that Vegas has us projected to win by 16, then I don't really understand the point of the Pre-Game thread, other than to relay a little scouting info.

Secondly, our prediction have no affect on the outcome of the game - at least I hope not.

#GODUKE

Of course not - everyone knows font color and boldness in chat determine the outcome of games with some weight also given to particular posters being signed in or out. Sometimes where I sit also seems to have an effect. Also I have a Duke shirt with a losing record that I only break out on non-game days now. But thread predictions probably have to relation whatsoever to the outcome. Then again you just never know...

[Kedsy]

FDD: Another weakness of the quants: VT was shooting out of their minds, making Duke look like the worst defense on the planet -- not just because VY was hitting shots but because the Hokis had been so lackluster in prior games and, therefore, quantitative rankings took a double hit.

Kindly, Sage

Except Virginia Tech has the 26th best three-point shooting percentage in the country. And they have the 46th highest percentage of points from threes. What they don't do very well is score a lot on two point baskets or free throws. Against Duke they did pretty much what they always try to do, they just did it really well. So I don't agree with your characterization.

[lotusland]

This. The broad outlines of that game followed the same template as the UVA/VT game. Virginia had an 11-point lead early in the first half. Virginia Tech closed to 1-point at halftime and took the lead early in the second half. Virginia eventually took control at the end. Tech did have a chance to tie, but it wasn't a good chance.

Tech is a much more competitive team in that dump of a gym they call home, I think in part because of how bad it is. Elite players get used to playing in nice environs. I think the darkness and dumpiness of Cassell affects the shooting of visiting teams and makes it hard to feel "right." It's the kind of dark, dank environment where mold thrives. It's perfect for Tech.

Apparently the practice facility is nice however Allen Iverson would not be impressed.4804

[DukeHLM'13]

Except when playing Wisconsin, why not just keep Jah under the basket on defense, sort of an anything and 1? That would help stop dribble drives. Fortunately most bigs cannot shoot from outside as well as Kaminsky.

This is exactly what I was thinking for a lot of the game, especially due to how poorly Jah was moving on defense (which I'm assuming we're accounting to him coming off the ankle sprain). I guess you could say run almost the opposite of a Box-and-1. Everyone else plays man, Jah kind of generally moves with his man but makes sure that he is never more that like 8 feet from the basket so he can help on guys getting beat off the dribble.

Not saying that this is a stragegy to use every game, but against a team like VT where their center really isn't much of an offensive threat at all it seems like it could work really well and help to cover up our defensive weaknesses.

I realize that its not a perfect plan, and probably leaves us susceptible to high screens set by the opposing center, but nothing else was working so why not give it a shot?

[azzefkram]

it's consistent with many of the other home games Virginia Tech has played.

Not really. In their 5 other ACC home games, VPI had 1.02, .91, .82, 1.08 and 1.02 points per possession. They hung a 1.30 on us. ND managed to hold them to less than 1 point per possession and prior to last night they were worse at defending the 3 ball than we were.

I think our D is definitely better than it showed last night but I'd be lying if I didn't say I am alarmed with our propensity for allowing teams to have a career night.

[wilson]

If we aren't allowed to predict big wins in games that Vegas has us projected to win by 16, then I don't really understand the point of the Pre-Game thread, other than to relay a little scouting info.

Secondly, our prediction have no affect on the outcome of the game - at least I hope not.

#GODUKEThis is pretty much exactly the point of the pregame threads...to aggregate scouting info (and around here, it's always more than "a little" info), and then to build a substantive breakdown of what we might expect during the game, or what we'd like to see Duke do, or aspects of the matchup that we might find concerning.
"Hahaha, this is an ez game and we're gonna win by 30!" offers no substantive commentary and adds nothing to the conversation on the board. Since we pride ourselves on being a community that at least aims to engage in more in-depth conversations than your average message board, it really should come as no surprise that regular posters find the hubris-laden cocky prediction posts tiresome and useless.

[daveduke76]

Yes, we won. And still I feel like I need a couple showers now to wash that game off of me.

Man this is stressful, our guys really look lost on defense at times.

[mike88]

This is exactly what I was thinking for a lot of the game, especially due to how poorly Jah was moving on defense (which I'm assuming we're accounting to him coming off the ankle sprain). I guess you could say run almost the opposite of a Box-and-1. Everyone else plays man, Jah kind of generally moves with his man but makes sure that he is never more that like 8 feet from the basket so he can help on guys getting beat off the dribble.

Not saying that this is a stragegy to use every game, but against a team like VT where their center really isn't much of an offensive threat at all it seems like it could work really well and help to cover up our defensive weaknesses.

I realize that its not a perfect plan, and probably leaves us susceptible to high screens set by the opposing center, but nothing else was working so why not give it a shot?

Well, it might be an option if either Jah or Marschall was great at defending the rim, but so far this year neither have shown that skill consistently. It also exposes Jah to foul trouble if he is having to stop drives himself. Teams will just use their center to ball screen every possession and then either shoot open threes or drive to the rim.

Duke's closest equivalent to UVA's scheme is to play man to man, pick up at the three point line, and switch almost everything- it works pretty well when we go small b/c Amile can guard smaller, quicker players- we saw this at the end of the game last night. But we can't afford to use that line-up very much because it is far less effective on the offensive side, and it fails to force turnovers as much as some of our more aggressive schemes.

[MCFinARL]

Okay, I'll join in. I'm listening to Mr. Lunardi bloviate during the UCLA game. He (and those listening to him) act like his opinion actually means something. He's not on the committee, folks.

My favorite Lunardi moment was when he came on late in the game to announce that Kentucky (with no losses) and Virginia (with only one) both had tighter control of a one seed than Duke. What a brilliant revelation--better alert the media!




I still think this team is tough.

Yes--they do seem to be tough, and a good thing. That is a distinct difference from last year's team, which didn't seem to be able to buckle down and find ways to win consistently.


VPISU shot better guarded (ostensibly) from 3-point range (12-of-22) than Duke shot unguarded from 15 feet (11-of-22). I'm having a hard time letting that sink in.

I'm thinking "ostensibly" is the operative word here.


K said post game that the lapses on D have come from shortened practices due to the number of players. This concerns me, are we going to get better or continue to get worse? I think this team is great, but with no defense we might run into problems during the tourney. That being said, the struggles on defense really haven't been noticeable until UNC and tonight. They played great against a better Clemson team.



Here is my question--Coach K says they can't really practice defense much with only 7 guys (counting Okafor out because of his ankle). But even with Okafor out, there are 10 guys for practice--the 7 he is counting plus Obi, Kelly, and Pagliuca. Obi at least should be able to participate in practice in a helpful way, and as for the walk-ons--are they not even good enough to participate as needed in scrimmages? If so, why are they on the team?

I know it is not the same as having two full squads of A-listers, but I think it is odd the way Coach K never even seems to reference their existence--especially Obi, who seems different in that respect from Curry and Hood, both of whom got many mentions for their practice participation during the years they sat out.

[Billy Dat]

Here is my question--Coach K says they can't really practice defense much with only 7 guys (counting Okafor out because of his ankle). But even with Okafor out, there are 10 guys for practice--the 7 he is counting plus Obi, Kelly, and Pagliuca. Obi at least should be able to participate in practice in a helpful way, and as for the walk-ons--are they not even good enough to participate as needed in scrimmages? If so, why are they on the team?

I know it is not the same as having two full squads of A-listers, but I think it is odd the way Coach K never even seems to reference their existence--especially Obi, who seems different in that respect from Curry and Hood, both of whom got many mentions for their practice participation during the years they sat out.

I think a big part of it is not wanting the rotation guys to get hurt in practice. A few games back, I remember him talking about the same subject and saying something like, "Sean can go hard, but i don't want him going against them too hard" with the implication being that if someone gets hurt, we'd almost be down to the walk-ons playing ala Jay Heaps.

[David Bunkley]

This is pretty much exactly the point of the pregame threads...to aggregate scouting info (and around here, it's always more than "a little" info), and then to build a substantive breakdown of what we might expect during the game, or what we'd like to see Duke do, or aspects of the matchup that we might find concerning.
"Hahaha, this is an ez game and we're gonna win by 30!" offers no substantive commentary and adds nothing to the conversation on the board. Since we pride ourselves on being a community that at least aims to engage in more in-depth conversations than your average message board, it really should come as no surprise that regular posters find the hubris-laden cocky prediction posts tiresome and useless.

Predicting a team to win big in a game that they are projected to win big in doesn't seem like hubris.

Also, the fact that you took offense to my saying "a little" shows me that maybe we're taking ourselves a little too seriously - but maybe that should have come as no surprise, too.

Have a great day!

#GODUKE

[wilson]

Predicting a team to win big in a game that they are projected to win big in doesn't seem like hubris.I'll just have to disagree, I guess. Most of us can cite countless examples of predictions that ended up being totally off-base, and while citing a prediction can be a useful beginning point for a conversation, simply taking it at face value as a guarantee that a given game will be a cakewalk is, to me, the very definition of hubris.


Also, the fact that you took offense to my saying "a little"I took no offense; rather, I thought you were diminishing the intended "meat" of the pregame threads...scouting information, and analysis of that information. As I said above, wildly predicting a blowout based on nothing more than the Vegas spread does not advance the conversation. It's not in keeping with the intention of the pregame threads, and it pretty closely matches the definition of "needless posting" laid out in the board's posting guidelines:
Posts that don't advance the conversation...Put your post in context by including your rationale for including the link, tweet, or quote. Otherwise, it might be considered a needless post. If all you're doing is saying "We're gonna murder them!" without any explanation for your belief, then you are posting needlessly according to our community guidelines.


shows me that maybe we're taking ourselves a little too seriously - but maybe that should have come as no surprise, too.

Have a great day!

#GODUKEWe definitely take board decorum more seriously than the vast majority of fan boards, because it keeps the level of discourse much higher than the typical forum. You're absolutely correct that we take ourselves too seriously sometimes, but I for one would prefer to err on the side of over-seriousness in order to preserve an expectation of very high-level discussion, as opposed to loosening the expectations and suffering diminished quality in our conversations. I would be willing to wager that the majority of our posters, especially the most active and longest-tenured posters, feel similarly. Some of our tendencies are a bit anal, I guess, but again, I believe it's better to be a bit tight than to be too loose, because this kind of thing falls apart very quickly on the interweb.
Please specifically note that none of my responses are meant to be personally targeted to you; like all around here, I wish to welcome as many people as are inclined to participate in measured and intelligent conversation. This board is not for everyone, and our guidelines are simply meant to preserve the very high quality of our discourse.

[Troublemaker]

I don't understand why, but Jah seems to lack the quickness and instinct to challenge those drives at the rim. Our dreams of a rim protecting big haven't really come true

Agreed. I would call this the biggest weakness of our defense. We're 216th in the country in Blocked Shot %.

This may sound crazy to some, but I suspect if we had Karl Anthony Towns on the team (not that I would make the trade; Jah's my guy because we recruited him, and he picked us), we'd have a top 15 defense.

A good rim protector (and Towns is great) can make that big a difference. As an example, in the NBA, Cleveland really came together as a team once they acquired Mozgov, who's a good one.

I like this team as is, and I'm not afraid of March. But I do wish Jah, with his 7'6" wingspan, could block a few more shots (and generally intimidate 2-pt attempts around the rim to miss more often). If we took all the players with 7'6" wingspans from the DraftExpress database and cross-referenced for their Blocked Shot % in college, I'd bet anything that Jahlil's 4.4% rate has to be one of the lowest ones. Beejay Anya is shorter and less athletic than Jah but he uses his long wingspan to lead the ACC in blocked shots.

[Kfanarmy]

Predicting a team to win big in a game that they are projected to win big in doesn't seem like hubris.

Also, the fact that you took offense to my saying "a little" shows me that maybe we're taking ourselves a little too seriously - but maybe that should have come as no surprise, too.

Have a great day!

#GODUKE

While I do enjoy reading the in-depth analysis that some posters present. I also appreciate the positive energy that goes in predicting a win. The game is supposed to be fun, hand-wringing over someone's prediction is even less productive than the prediction...and writing a dissertation warning about it, is well, not informative either.

[mike88]

Agreed. I would call this the biggest weakness of our defense. We're 216th in the country in Blocked Shot %.

This may sound crazy to some, but I suspect if we had Karl Anthony Towns on the team (not that I would make the trade; Jah's my guy because we recruited him, and he picked us), we'd have a top 15 defense.

A good rim protector (and Towns is great) can make that big a difference. As an example, in the NBA, Cleveland really came together as a team once they acquired Mozgov, who's a good one.

I like this team as is, and I'm not afraid of March. But I do wish Jah, with his 7'6" wingspan, could block a few more shots (and generally intimidate 2-pt attempts around the rim to miss more often). If we took all the players with 7'6" wingspans from the DraftExpress database and cross-referenced for their Blocked Shot % in college, I'd bet anything that Jahlil's 4.4% rate has to be one of the lowest ones. Beejay Anya is shorter and less athletic than Jah but he uses his long wingspan to lead the ACC in blocked shots.

A couple of reasons:

1) I think Jah has made an active effort to avoid first half fouls, and has been particularly unaggressive early on; the coaching staff may or not may not encourage this, and sometimes it seems to bleed over into the second half

2) inexperience: Jah has outstanding offensive skills, and is very mature about how he uses them; as he gets more experienced, he will learn better how to defend at the rim, including how to avoid fouls or give fouls so that opponents don't convert the basket

3) opponent game planning- teams have scouted well and do their best to get Jah involved in ball screens so that he can't be in position to help at the rim

Our team would also benefit from Marschall improving in each of these areas, or maybe we could bring Zoubek out of retirement . . .

[Troublemaker]

Here is my question--Coach K says they can't really practice defense much with only 7 guys (counting Okafor out because of his ankle). But even with Okafor out, there are 10 guys for practice--the 7 he is counting plus Obi, Kelly, and Pagliuca. Obi at least should be able to participate in practice in a helpful way, and as for the walk-ons--are they not even good enough to participate as needed in scrimmages? If so, why are they on the team?

I think a big part of it is not wanting the rotation guys to get hurt in practice. A few games back, I remember him talking about the same subject and saying something like, "Sean can go hard, but i don't want him going against them too hard" with the implication being that if someone gets hurt, we'd almost be down to the walk-ons playing ala Jay Heaps.

Yes, WRT to how Duke is currently practicing, Coach K also said in the post-VT presser something to the effect of "We're in it for the long haul."

I took that to mean that Duke COULD practice harder and be sharper on defense, but we're saving the players' legs for now. Once postseason arrives, I think we'll go at it a bit harder and hopefully become more consistently good on defense as a result.

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

While I do enjoy reading the in-depth analysis that some posters present. I also appreciate the positive energy that goes in predicting a win. The game is supposed to be fun, hand-wringing over someone's prediction is even less productive than the prediction...and writing a dissertation warning about it, is well, not informative either.

I have an opinion in this matter... Lets make outlandish predictions such as 20 point win in the optimism thread, and 20 point losses in the pessimist thread!! Back on subject

I am still having trouble grasping how VT shot better from three than we did from the stripe. I really hope that it doesn't haunt us come tourney time.

[MChambers]

I am still having trouble grasping how VT shot better from three than we did from the stripe. I really hope that it doesn't haunt us come tourney time.
I am highly confident that the fact that VT shot better from three than we did from the stripe will have absolutely no bearing on how we do in the NCAA tournament! :o

[KandG]

This may sound crazy to some, but I suspect if we had Karl Anthony Towns on the team (not that I would make the trade; Jah's my guy because we recruited him, and he picked us), we'd have a top 15 defense.

A good rim protector (and Towns is great) can make that big a difference.

Not crazy at all. It's why there's a growing (if still minority) sentiment for drafting Towns first. Despite Jah's substantially more sophisticated offensive ability, Towns' mobility and defensive instincts are more suited to significant aspects of the NBA game.

This article is an interesting perspective on Jah's potential issues at the next level - for what it's worth, I think he'll end up being more than fine, because even with questionable instincts and defensive footwork, you can still use size to make an impact on defense, and I genuinely believe Jah will improve. But the red flags are notable.

http://upsidemotor.com/2015/02/25/nba-draft-2015-jahlil-okafor-duke-blue-devils-flawed-star-bust-knicks-timberwolves-76ers/

"Okafor’s skillset and production suggest that he’ll be a difference maker on one end of the court. Knowing that, many teams will be happy to ignore specific concerns with the hope they can put pieces around him to supplement strengths and hide weaknesses.

That philosophy comes with the caveat that Okafor’s flaws are some of the hardest to overcome in the league’s current setup. The pick-and-roll boom has put a premium on ball-handlers who can attack and distribute out of P&R sets, and big men who can either protect the rim or stop those guards from turning the corner. Against lesser competition, Okafor has struggled at the latter and been inconsistently focused at the former.

I believe it’s possible to build a team around a one-dimensional big — and the “bad” teams mentioned have problems far beyond their bigs — but it ups the degree of difficulty. The Hornets were one of the league’s nice stories last season after Big Al Jefferson’s arrival spurned them to a playoff berth. They accounted for Jefferson’s lacking foot speed by slowing the game down and prioritizing ball safety, registering the league’s lowest turnover percentage. The issue with slower, low-risk basketball is the margin for error, and a three-point drop in offensive rating has Charlotte 10 games under .500 despite improving in several other areas"

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

I am highly confident that the fact that VT shot better from three than we did from the stripe will have absolutely no bearing on how we do in the NCAA tournament! :o

Im going with you then MChambers, if you say it won't I am confident it wont...I just want a good run this year, no disappointments, of course I guess as Duke fans that means Championship or bust... But I wouldn't have it any other way.

[ArnieMc]

Kudos to Buzz Williams for changing the character of Va Tech. Under Seth Greenberg, it was nothing but cheap shots, hard fouls, and generally chippy play. The game last night was exceptionally clean.

[David Bunkley]

Kudos to Buzz Williams for changing the character of Va Tech. Under Seth Greenberg, it was nothing but cheap shots, hard fouls, and generally chippy play. The game last night was exceptionally clean.

If VPI gives Buzz time to recruit, that's going to ba a heck of a team - soon.

#GODUKE

[Kedsy]

Well, it might be an option if either Jah or Marschall was great at defending the rim, but so far this year neither have shown that skill consistently.

Marshall's block percentage of 6.5% would rank in the top 10 of the ACC if he played enough. It's also the best block percentage by a Duke rotation player since Josh McRoberts in 2007. So I'd say while he's not elite, he defends the rim reasonably well.


Here is my question--Coach K says they can't really practice defense much with only 7 guys (counting Okafor out because of his ankle). But even with Okafor out, there are 10 guys for practice--the 7 he is counting plus Obi, Kelly, and Pagliuca. Obi at least should be able to participate in practice in a helpful way, and as for the walk-ons--are they not even good enough to participate as needed in scrimmages? If so, why are they on the team?

Well, with Jahlil out, here are the matchups, depending on which player is included with the starters:

Quinn/Tyus/Justise/Amile/Marshall vs. Matt/Grayson/Sean/Sean/Nick
OR
Quinn/Tyus/Matt/Justise/Amile vs. Grayson/Marshall/Sean/Sean/Nick

Do either of those "blue teams" have enough offense to challenge the starters on defense? I have my doubts.

[W&LHoo]

If VPI gives Buzz time to recruit, that's going to ba a heck of a team - soon.

#GODUKE

I feel like that's true all over the league. With the young guys at Tech, Wake, FSU, and the growing programs at Miami and NC State the ACC is going to be absolutely brutal over the coming 3-4 years.

[mike88]

Marshall's block percentage of 6.5% would rank in the top 10 of the ACC if he played enough. It's also the best block percentage by a Duke rotation player since Josh McRoberts in 2007. So I'd say while he's not elite, he defends the rim reasonably well.


Marschall is an interesting contrast to Jah. He seems more athletic and quicker in the pick and roll, and does get some blocks, but he also tends to over-commit on defense and fouls more than Jah or Amile. I do think having Marschall play 5-7 more minutes a game would help overall with team defense without sacrificing too much on offense.

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

I feel like that's true all over the league. With the young guys at Tech, Wake, FSU, and the growing programs at Miami and NC State the ACC is going to be absolutely brutal over the coming 3-4 years.


I feel like we have this conversation all the time. While those team often get good, the problem is sustaining that success. FSU climbed the ladder and even won an ACC Championship but since then they have been down. I wish these teams would sustain their success for multiple years. I know that's easier said than done, with the heavy hitters we have in this conference. As a UVA fan, with an assumed healthy dislike of VT, do you think Buzz is going to make that team a power? Or do you think they will be a flash in the pan like FSU or even Miami?

[David Bunkley]

I feel like we have this conversation all the time. While those team often get good, the problem is sustaining that success. FSU climbed the ladder and even won an ACC Championship but since then they have been down. I wish these teams would sustain their success for multiple years. I know that's easier said than done, with the heavy hitters we have in this conference. As a UVA fan, with an assumed healthy dislike of VT, do you think Buzz is going to make that team a power? Or do you think they will be a flash in the pan like FSU or even Miami?

I don't know if they'll be a power, but I do think that he could have them consistently in the top half of the league.

#GODUKE

[uh_no]

Our team would also benefit from Marschall improving in each of these areas, or maybe we could bring Zoubek out of retirement . . .
The biggest problem is jah doesn't have enough of a beard

[jv001]

Marschall is an interesting contrast to Jah. He seems more athletic and quicker in the pick and roll, and does get some blocks, but he also tends to over-commit on defense and fouls more than Jah or Amile. I do think having Marschall play 5-7 more minutes a game would help overall with team defense without sacrificing too much on offense.

It's Marshall or MPIII if you prefer and I do think that MPIII is a much better defender than Jahlil. Too bad we can't platoon offense for defense. :cool:GoDuke!

[MCFinARL]

Ky did in fact wear white on the road. NCAA investigation pending and will take high priority, pushing UNC academic issues to the back burner.

I think the post, though, referred to an earlier picture that was of Duke at home; it's since been switched to the Kentucky photo.

[roywhite]

Duke 91, VaTech 86 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dihppEWQUQI)

From DukeBluePlanet

Love seeing Justise go coast-to-coast

[MCFinARL]

I think a big part of it is not wanting the rotation guys to get hurt in practice. A few games back, I remember him talking about the same subject and saying something like, "Sean can go hard, but i don't want him going against them too hard" with the implication being that if someone gets hurt, we'd almost be down to the walk-ons playing ala Jay Heaps.


Yes, WRT to how Duke is currently practicing, Coach K also said in the post-VT presser something to the effect of "We're in it for the long haul."

I took that to mean that Duke COULD practice harder and be sharper on defense, but we're saving the players' legs for now. Once postseason arrives, I think we'll go at it a bit harder and hopefully become more consistently good on defense as a result.

Both of these replies make a lot of sense and are helpful. Thanks.

[MCFinARL]

Duke 91, VaTech 86 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dihppEWQUQI)

From DukeBluePlanet

Love seeing Justise go coast-to-coast

Me too. Would be happy to see lots more of that.

An interesting note--this is the first time I have ever seen a team manager involved in the interview at the end of the top plays video. Not sure why they made that choice this time, but it was charming--he and Jahlil seemed to have a good rapport and the contrast in their sizes (hint: it was a BIG contrast) was amusing.

[MCFinARL]

Well, with Jahlil out, here are the matchups, depending on which player is included with the starters:

Quinn/Tyus/Justise/Amile/Marshall vs. Matt/Grayson/Sean/Sean/Nick
OR
Quinn/Tyus/Matt/Justise/Amile vs. Grayson/Marshall/Sean/Sean/Nick

Do either of those "blue teams" have enough offense to challenge the starters on defense? I have my doubts.

I see your point re quality vs. quantity--they could, in fact, "practice" defense, but it wouldn't be near the level of most game play.

[lotusland]

Marschall is an interesting contrast to Jah. He seems more athletic and quicker in the pick and roll, and does get some blocks, but he also tends to over-commit on defense and fouls more than Jah or Amile. I do think having Marschall play 5-7 more minutes a game would help overall with team defense without sacrificing too much on offense.

Marshall seems to commit a lot of fouls for his minutes played but I think he could be a effective center next year. He defends pretty well already and he's shown flashes of a limited post game. He needs to work on getting his hands up and being ready to catch the ball and go up with the shot but I would love to see what MP3 can do if Tyus decides to come back. I expect Marshall to start and I think we could have a nice 4 man rotation of bigs ala 2010 with Amile, MP3, Obi and Jeter with MP3 hopefully playing the Zoubek role. No questions we'll miss Jah's post work but, with a 4-man rotation, no one will need to hold back on defense in fear of fouling out.

[W&LHoo]

I feel like we have this conversation all the time. While those team often get good, the problem is sustaining that success. FSU climbed the ladder and even won an ACC Championship but since then they have been down. I wish these teams would sustain their success for multiple years. I know that's easier said than done, with the heavy hitters we have in this conference. As a UVA fan, with an assumed healthy dislike of VT, do you think Buzz is going to make that team a power? Or do you think they will be a flash in the pan like FSU or even Miami?

Hard to say. I do think the amount of money and effort Tech put into attracting Buzz makes me think they're serious about making a play for relevance. I think Buzz was a great hire for them. I also liked Greenberg fwiw. As much as I hate the turkeys (and oh my god I hate them) I never really disliked any of their basketball coaches.

I'm not saying all of those programs will achieve sustainable quality, but there are enough of them with talented coaches that I think it's safe to bet that one or two will.

[MChambers]

Im going with you then MChambers, if you say it won't I am confident it wont...I just want a good run this year, no disappointments, of course I guess as Duke fans that means Championship or bust... But I wouldn't have it any other way.
It's just that I'm sure VT won't be shooting 3s in the NCAA tourney!

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

It's just that I'm sure VT won't be shooting 3s in the NCAA tourney!

Day ruined

[Kedsy]

Also, I predict we beat Cuse by 8,123 points...just 'cause.

I assume you're exaggerating. So let's bet and I'll take Syracuse and you give me 8000 points, OK? You know what? I'll be generous -- you only have to give me 1000 points. A small, gentleman's bet, let's say half a million dollars, give or take? You in? ;)

[Channing]

Quinn/Tyus/Justise/Amile/Marshall vs. Matt/Grayson/Sean/Sean/Nick
OR
Quinn/Tyus/Matt/Justise/Amile vs. Grayson/Marshall/Sean/Sean/Nick

Do either of those "blue teams" have enough offense to challenge the starters on defense? I have my doubts.

I wonder if K is having Scheyer, Nate, or even Capel suit up for practice. All of those guys were (assumedly, still are) good enough on offense to press a defense.

[Kedsy]

I wonder if K is having Scheyer, Nate, or even Capel suit up for practice. All of those guys were (assumedly, still are) good enough on offense to press a defense.

An interesting idea. If he was, though, would he be lamenting the fact that they don't have enough guys to practice D?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I'll just have to disagree, I guess. Most of us can cite countless examples of predictions that ended up being totally off-base, and while citing a prediction can be a useful beginning point for a conversation, simply taking it at face value as a guarantee that a given game will be a cakewalk is, to me, the very definition of hubris.

I took no offense; rather, I thought you were diminishing the intended "meat" of the pregame threads...scouting information, and analysis of that information. As I said above, wildly predicting a blowout based on nothing more than the Vegas spread does not advance the conversation. It's not in keeping with the intention of the pregame threads, and it pretty closely matches the definition of "needless posting" laid out in the board's posting guidelines: If all you're doing is saying "We're gonna murder them!" without any explanation for your belief, then you are posting needlessly according to our community guidelines.

We definitely take board decorum more seriously than the vast majority of fan boards, because it keeps the level of discourse much higher than the typical forum. You're absolutely correct that we take ourselves too seriously sometimes, but I for one would prefer to err on the side of over-seriousness in order to preserve an expectation of very high-level discussion, as opposed to loosening the expectations and suffering diminished quality in our conversations. I would be willing to wager that the majority of our posters, especially the most active and longest-tenured posters, feel similarly. Some of our tendencies are a bit anal, I guess, but again, I believe it's better to be a bit tight than to be too loose, because this kind of thing falls apart very quickly on the interweb.
Please specifically note that none of my responses are meant to be personally targeted to you; like all around here, I wish to welcome as many people as are inclined to participate in measured and intelligent conversation. This board is not for everyone, and our guidelines are simply meant to preserve the very high quality of our discourse.

I think a lot of your points are solid. My (lengthy) experience on this board suggests that most folks are about as uncomfortable with the blanket "we're gonna get whooped" as we are with the "we're going to whoop 'em" if it comes without any substantive backing. If one says "I think we're going to dominate VaTech on the boards and score at will inside and we ought to win by 20+ points if we can get their bigs in foul trouble" I don't think people freak out. Or, if someone says "I've got a terrible feelings about this game - I think VaTech is going to smoke it from the 3 point line and will slash to the middle against our defense, scoring at will and we will lose by 20+ points" - I don't think you will be chastised for your analysis.

Sort of like "we're going to run the table because DUKE" v. "we'll be lucky to finish over .500 in conference this year" - neither are received very well here.

But, I could be wrong.

[lotusland]

An interesting idea. If he was, though, would he be lamenting the fact that they don't have enough guys to practice D?

Maybe with Capel. Just kidding.

[uh_no]

I wonder if K is having Scheyer, Nate, or even Capel suit up for practice. All of those guys were (assumedly, still are) good enough on offense to press a defense.

there are rules about who can play in practice, namely they have to be eligible NCAA athletes...C vivian stringer got busted for improper practice player usage, for instance. I don't know what the exceptions might be for coaches.

[jimmymax]

Yea, about that defense, I bet K wished they could walk home in the snow...wait did I say that out loud?

This team is fun. I get as excited when we make a free throw as I do a three-pointer.

[Kedsy]

Yea, about that defense, I bet K wished they could walk home in the snow...wait did I say that out loud?

This team is fun. I get as excited when we make a free throw as I do a three-pointer.

Ba-dum-bum. You're here all week. Try the veal.

[sagegrouse]

Except Virginia Tech has the 26th best three-point shooting percentage in the country. And they have the 46th highest percentage of points from threes. What they don't do very well is score a lot on two point baskets or free throws. Against Duke they did pretty much what they always try to do, they just did it really well. So I don't agree with your characterization.

Kedsy, IMHO (where the H is silent) it is all part of the same picture. A poor team (or, a team with a poor record) played out of their minds. Yep, I know the Hokis shoot 40 percent from three normally, but they shot 54.5 percent last night. So, in my twisted logic, the "hit" on the Duke defense rating is both that VT played well and also that they were a poor team expected to play poorly.

Did we deserve the hit? Yep, but probably not as big as the one as received. Anyway, just my dos pesos.

Sage

[MarkD83]

The more I read this thread the more optimistic I become. I was originally of the mind set that Duke should punt and play zone. I now feel that the issue was lack of intensity and a less talented team playing out of their minds.

I also realized that whenever Duke absolutely needed a bucket Duke has a senior in QC who delivered what was needed or Duke had two players down low (Justise and Jah) that can get easy buckets close to the basket. These are assets Duke did not have in prior years when they lost in the first round(s). Last year we relied on Jabari and Rodney (not seniors) and players whose games started on the perimeter. Two years before that we relied on Austin, a freshman whose game also started on the perimeter. In 2013 when Duke made the elite 8 Duke went to Mason down low as much as possible.

But perhaps the more important point which makes me optimistic is in a game that Duke won that will be forgotten by the NCAA committee in a few weeks, Coach K gets a teaching moment.

If you treat that first round team in the NCAA like Duke did VT at VT you will lose in the first round. Treat all of the games like you did Wisc @ Wisc, UVA @ UVA, UL @ UL, ND at home, UNC at home, Clemson at home.....and Duke will do well.

[gofurman]

I just want to 2nd and 3rd those who commented about posters predicting in the pre game thread Duke would win by 20+. Please stop. Even if Duke is a 1 seed do not post in the pre game thread that they will beat their opponent by 30. If you need an outlet for your predictions write it in a journal.



This. Never post how easy a game will be. Please

[Mcluhan]

This. Never post how easy a game will be. Please

Is it OK to predict a difficult game, or a loss?

If someone said it to you in live conversation, would you sternly tell them "DON'T SAY THAT", or would you just chuckle, object lightly, and carry on with good basketball conversation?

[ncexnyc]

Some thoughts about last night’s game. I question the hand -wringing that’s taking place on this board. I thought it was an impressive win. No, it wasn’t a dominant performance, but it was a game where we could have easily came away with an ugly loss. The kids held off a torrid shooting VT team and it would have been very easy for them to pack it in when they went down by eight and say this just isn’t our night. Instead they continued to fight tooth and nail and came away with the win. Something that team down the road from us would never be able to do.

There are things which are indeed troublesome about this team, but we already know we have a problem with foul shooting. We also know that the defense can be less than intense for some reason during stretches of a game, but the bottom line is the team manages to overcome these issues.

Let’s not be so hard on a squad which features three freshman starters. Let’s not let our expectations and desires for a championship get in our way of enjoying what this team has given us up to now.

On a side note I’d be interested to see if one of our stats geeks could put together some numbers for the team with and without Rasheed. I ask this because I wonder if the winning streak is just a coincidence or not.

[uh_no]

Is it OK to predict a difficult game, or a loss?

If someone said it to you in live conversation, would you sternly tell them "DON'T SAY THAT", or would you just chuckle, object lightly, and carry on with good basketball conversation?

I think in both cases, the general aversion is to predictions without any basis.

BAD: We'll win by 20!!!!!
GOOD: I think this should be an easy win. <opponent> has had trouble defending big men of lesser quality than okafor, and have a relatively slow offense. I'd guess 15 points.

BAD: We're looking at an early exit from the tournament AT BEST
GOOD: our defense has some issues that have caused teams with similar issues in the past to go out early. We've demonstrated the ability to beat those teams, but it's certainly not the sure thing it should be.

[Kfanarmy]

Some thoughts about last night’s game. I question the hand -wringing that’s taking place on this board. I thought it was an impressive win. No, it wasn’t a dominant performance, but it was a game where we could have easily came away with an ugly loss. The kids held off a torrid shooting VT team and it would have been very easy for them to pack it in when they went down by eight and say this just isn’t our night. Instead they continued to fight tooth and nail and came away with the win. Something that team down the road from us would never be able to do.

There are things which are indeed troublesome about this team, but we already know we have a problem with foul shooting. We also know that the defense can be less than intense for some reason during stretches of a game, but the bottom line is the team manages to overcome these issues.

Let’s not be so hard on a squad which features three freshman starters. Let’s not let our expectations and desires for a championship get in our way of enjoying what this team has given us up to now.

On a side note I’d be interested to see if one of our stats geeks could put together some numbers for the team with and without Rasheed. I ask this because I wonder if the winning streak is just a coincidence or not.
Wish I could spork this. I saw a lot of heart in the team. They are fighters and they are a joy to watch.

[fgb]

This. Never post how easy a game will be. Please

why? did someone's post have some actual effect on the game?

[lotusland]

why? did someone's post have some actual effect on the game?

No but the real point of pre-game sand post-game threads are to have pages and pages of back and forth dialogue with Wheat. It's frustrating to have to scroll past a short prediction post when I need my Wheaties.

[OldPhiKap]

I think in both cases, the general aversion is to predictions without any basis.

BAD: We'll win by 20!!!!!
GOOD: I think this should be an easy win. <opponent> has had trouble defending big men of lesser quality than okafor, and have a relatively slow offense. I'd guess 15 points.

BAD: We're looking at an early exit from the tournament AT BEST
GOOD: our defense has some issues that have caused teams with similar issues in the past to go out early. We've demonstrated the ability to beat those teams, but it's certainly not the sure thing it should be.

Well-stated, as was Wilson's posts above.


why? did someone's post have some actual effect on the game?

No, because it adds nothing at best and shows ignorance at worst. Duke gets a lot of grief for having conceited fans, the DBR community has been solid in refusing to play into it.

And, karma is a beotch.

[Billy Dat]

why? did someone's post have some actual effect on the game?

Watching the VT game, I found myself speaking my worst fears out loud and then having them realized:

-"Bet they hit another 3 here"
-"Man, we just played 30 seconds of good D but couldn't get the board, bet they make us pay by scoring"

As each of these predictions came true, I promised to stop actually vocalizing my pessimism and only thought it instead - a man only has so much ability to keep negative thoughts out. As soon as I stopped saying these things out loud, their frequency of actually occurring slowed down.

All that is to say, I think writing negative things on message boards has an actual impact on the game. I think it would be smart to have an "optimism" thread and a "pessimism" thread and I guarantee that those posting in the optimism thread will watch a game that Duke wins and those participating in the glass half empty thread will watch a losing game.

The problem is that, as a result, there will be a permanent fracture in the time/space continuum and those in either thread will start living separate realities ala the 1998 Gwyneth Paltrow vehicle "Sliding Doors" and the two camps will no longer have a chance to tussle with the typed word in these hallowed electronic halls. The upside is that those wanting to be optimistic will celebrate championship after championship while the others will know only misery. Everyone choosing not to post in either thread will experience both highs and lows.

By the way, everything I said about watching the game and having my verbalized predictions come true is 100% real.

[MChambers]

Watching the VT game, I found myself speaking my worst fears out loud and then having them realized:

-"Bet they hit another 3 here"
-"Man, we just played 30 seconds of good D but couldn't get the board, bet they make us pay by scoring"

As each of these predictions came true, I promised to stop actually vocalizing my pessimism and only thought it instead - a man only has so much ability to keep negative thoughts out. As soon as I stopped saying these things out loud, their frequency of actually occurring slowed down.

All that is to say, I think writing negative things on message boards has an actual impact on the game. I think it would be smart to have an "optimism" thread and a "pessimism" thread and I guarantee that those posting in the optimism thread will watch a game that Duke wins and those participating in the glass half empty thread will watch a losing game.

The problem is that, as a result, there will be a permanent fracture in the time/space continuum and those in either thread will start living separate realities ala the 1998 Gwyneth Paltrow vehicle "Sliding Doors" and the two camps will no longer have a chance to tussle with the typed word in these hallowed electronic halls. The upside is that those wanting to be optimistic will celebrate championship after championship while the others will know only misery. Everyone choosing not to post in either thread will experience both highs and lows.

By the way, everything I said about watching the game and having my verbalized predictions come true is 100% real.
So if we start practicing mindfulness and cultivating our positive emotions, Duke will win another championship! At least for those of us who actually do this. I'll get right on it.

[brevity]

why? did someone's post have some actual effect on the game?

There are two ways to look at this.

1. Superstition. There are a few people on this board who would say that there is an effect, and many more who, in the heat of fandom, will acknowledge the possibility. The UNC game is a good example. Fans did about 897,154 things differently in the collective hope of changing the outcome, and Duke turned the game around. How many of those external actions were necessary? The answer is either none of them, all of them, or something in between. If you are not superstitious, and others are, you will most likely not get them to change their minds. But, in the weird context of sports, there's a chance they could change yours.

2. Propriety. Pregame trash talking is a normal and natural part of fan bravado, but it doesn't go over well here. Part of it is that it sounds better than it reads. Also, spoken words go in one ear and out the other, but text is recorded for posterity. I get annoyed by all the aimless handwringing about how every opponent is so frightening, but aimless certainty of crushing an opponent isn't much better. I'd rather both sides apply a bit of reason to their predictions -- using stats if they really have to -- creating discussion instead of two monologues.

[lotusland]

There are two ways to look at this.

1. Superstition. There are a few people on this board who would say that there is an effect, and many more who, in the heat of fandom, will acknowledge the possibility. The UNC game is a good example. Fans did about 897,154 things differently in the collective hope of changing the outcome, and Duke turned the game around. How many of those external actions were necessary? The answer is either none of them, all of them, or something in between. If you are not superstitious, and others are, you will most likely not get them to change their minds. But, in the weird context of sports, there's a chance they could change yours.

2. Propriety. Pregame trash talking is a normal and natural part of fan bravado, but it doesn't go over well here. Part of it is that it sounds better than it reads. Also, spoken words go in one ear and out the other, but text is recorded for posterity. I get annoyed by all the aimless handwringing about how every opponent is so frightening, but aimless certainty of crushing an opponent isn't much better. I'd rather both sides apply a bit of reason to their predictions -- using stats if they really have to -- creating discussion instead of two monologues.


But the question was "did someone's post have some actual effect on the game?t

This is a Yes or No question with only 1 correct answer. I entertain some superstitious rituals but I also understand that they have no actual effect on the game. Regarding Santa Clause we told our kids when the stop believing the stop receiving so they believe in Santa the same way I believe I have a Duke T-shirt that makes Duke lose.

[jv001]

There are two ways to look at this.

1. Superstition. There are a few people on this board who would say that there is an effect, and many more who, in the heat of fandom, will acknowledge the possibility. The UNC game is a good example. Fans did about 897,154 things differently in the collective hope of changing the outcome, and Duke turned the game around. How many of those external actions were necessary? The answer is either none of them, all of them, or something in between. If you are not superstitious, and others are, you will most likely not get them to change their minds. But, in the weird context of sports, there's a chance they could change yours.

2. Propriety. Pregame trash talking is a normal and natural part of fan bravado, but it doesn't go over well here. Part of it is that it sounds better than it reads. Also, spoken words go in one ear and out the other, but text is recorded for posterity. I get annoyed by all the aimless handwringing about how every opponent is so frightening, but aimless certainty of crushing an opponent isn't much better. I'd rather both sides apply a bit of reason to their predictions -- using stats if they really have to -- creating discussion instead of two monologues.

As some posters mentioned that VT was a great 3 point shooting team(prior to game). Well, VT went ahead and showed us just how great a three point shooting team they are. :cool: GoDuke!

[bluenorth]

[

What does this even mean? First of all, his perceived defensive weakness isn't going to prevent him from being drafted top one. It's almost a foregone conclusion that he's the top pick in the draft. Second, if a team drafts him first and pays him first draft pick money (which as I understand it, is mandated by the League), then how could his "perceived value" possibly be decreased?


As you say, right now Okafor's perceived value is as the top choice in the next draft. And you are correct, that brings a mandated amount of money. But there are times that this perception can change. As the draft gets closer, more faults are noticed and magnified, with the possibility that a player's value drops. Probably the best recent example is that of Nerlens Noel in the 2013 draft. The can't-miss top choice eventually went 6th overall. His paydays are still something I'd envy, but not quite what a number one pick would be taking home. As his perceived value dropped from #1 to #6, so did his income.
I'd hope that GMs' opinions of Okafor and his value don't change, but strange things happen. In that category, remember the #1 pick of 2013? Right, it was Anthony Bennett.

[Kedsy]

As you say, right now Okafor's perceived value is as the top choice in the next draft. And you are correct, that brings a mandated amount of money. But there are times that this perception can change. As the draft gets closer, more faults are noticed and magnified, with the possibility that a player's value drops. Probably the best recent example is that of Nerlens Noel in the 2013 draft. The can't-miss top choice eventually went 6th overall. His paydays are still something I'd envy, but not quite what a number one pick would be taking home.

Noel went 6th instead of 1st because he was injured and likely to miss his entire first season, with no guarantee as to how well he would recover. It had nothing to do with perceived faults dimming his value. And he still went 6th. So if that's the best recent example, I think it actually supports the idea that Jahlil's perceived defensive weakness will not decrease his monetary value in any meaningful way.

But I guess we'll see. Personally, I'll be very surprised if Jahlil isn't the first pick in the draft, and if something crazy happens and he isn't first, I'll be absolutely shocked if he's not picked second. He has no financial reasons to stay in school another year.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Noel went 6th instead of 1st because he was injured and likely to miss his entire first season, with no guarantee as to how well he would recover. It had nothing to do with perceived faults dimming his value. And he still went 6th. So if that's the best recent example, I think it actually supports the idea that Jahlil's perceived defensive weakness will not decrease his monetary value in any meaningful way.

But I guess we'll see. Personally, I'll be very surprised if Jahlil isn't the first pick in the draft, and if something crazy happens and he isn't first, I'll be absolutely shocked if he's not picked second. He has no financial reasons to stay in school another year.

Perceived defensive weaknesses also doesn't scare teams when it comes to draftability. Jabari went #2, and the perception was/is that he can't guard his own shadow. KD went #2 (and he should have gone 1) when his D was non-existent at Texas. Kyrie Irving, Blake Griffin, and Derrick Rose were all offensive studs with defensive question marks in college. And they all went #1 in the last 7 years.

[Kedsy]

Perceived defensive weaknesses also doesn't scare teams when it comes to draftability. Jabari went #2, and the perception was/is that he can't guard his own shadow. KD went #2 (and he should have gone 1) when his D was non-existent at Texas. Kyrie Irving, Blake Griffin, and Derrick Rose were all offensive studs with defensive question marks in college. And they all went #1 in the last 7 years.

I completely agree with this, except for Derrick Rose. He was a really good defender in his one year of college.

[Olympic Fan]

Perceived defensive weaknesses also doesn't scare teams when it comes to draftability. Jabari went #2, and the perception was/is that he can't guard his own shadow. KD went #2 (and he should have gone 1) when his D was non-existent at Texas. Kyrie Irving, Blake Griffin, and Derrick Rose were all offensive studs with defensive question marks in college. And they all went #1 in the last 7 years.

This actually supports your thesis.

Who did Durant go No. 2 to?

Greg Oden, a big man with a history of injuries.

The Trail Blazers (I think) overlooked his injury history to get a premier center. Oden was, of cou8rse, the opposite of Okafor -- he was a great defender and an excellent rebounder with an undeveloped offensive game.

The point is, Okafor is still going to go No. 1 -- defensive weaknesses or not. A few weeks ago a few pundit were offering D'Angelo Russell as a potential challenger, but that talk has slowed as Russell have come back down to earth after a remarkable hot streak.

None of the other young big men -- Cauley-Stein, Towns, etc. -- have garnered the positive reaction that Oak has gained.

[flyingdutchdevil]

This actually supports your thesis.

Who did Durant go No. 2 to?

Greg Oden, a big man with a history of injuries.

The Trail Blazers (I think) overlooked his injury history to get a premier center. Oden was, of cou8rse, the opposite of Okafor -- he was a great defender and an excellent rebounder with an undeveloped offensive game.

The point is, Okafor is still going to go No. 1 -- defensive weaknesses or not. A few weeks ago a few pundit were offering D'Angelo Russell as a potential challenger, but that talk has slowed as Russell have come back down to earth after a remarkable hot streak.

None of the other young big men -- Cauley-Stein, Towns, etc. -- have garnered the positive reaction that Oak has gained.

Yeah. Okafor provides something that the NBA truly lacks - an offensive-minded 5 with insane footwork, immense strength, and coachability. As a second year in the NBA, I would expect him to average 20-10. Will he be the best prospect 8 years from now? No idea. Russell and Towns have more "potential," (ie they are more athletic) but far from a sure thing. Okafor is a sure thing in terms of numbers. He is essentially Demarcus Cousins without the drama.

Also, if you're the GM, you will never get fired taking Okafor with the #1 pick. If you pick Russell or Towns and they flame out, you're out of there (see the Cavs' Chris Grant).

[lotusland]

This actually supports your thesis.

Who did Durant go No. 2 to?

Greg Oden, a big man with a history of injuries.

The Trail Blazers (I think) overlooked his injury history to get a premier center. Oden was, of cou8rse, the opposite of Okafor -- he was a great defender and an excellent rebounder with an undeveloped offensive game.

The point is, Okafor is still going to go No. 1 -- defensive weaknesses or not. A few weeks ago a few pundit were offering D'Angelo Russell as a potential challenger, but that talk has slowed as Russell have come back down to earth after a remarkable hot streak.

None of the other young big men -- Cauley-Stein, Towns, etc. -- have garnered the positive reaction that Oak has gained.

Did the Okafor is Ewing thread get somehow merged with this thread? Or maybe I missed the segue?

[alteran]

K let the team off the hook in his post-game comments, alluding to the difficulty of practicing D with 7 guys, but I hope behind the scenes, he, the staff and players have a fire lit to go fix this thing.

It's almost like he didn't want to throw his players under the bus.

[alteran]

Kudos to Buzz Williams for changing the character of Va Tech. Under Seth Greenberg, it was nothing but cheap shots, hard fouls, and generally chippy play. The game last night was exceptionally clean.

I was so wound up I hardly noticed that. Good point.

[Duke3517]

If Duke wants to win the NCAA tournament they have to man up and grow a pair. Especially on the defensive side of the ball.

[freshmanjs]

If Duke wants to win the NCAA tournament they have to man up and grow a pair. Especially on the defensive side of the ball.

yeah, totally. if only this team had shown some toughness..... :confused::confused::confused:

[OldPhiKap]

If Duke wants to win the NCAA tournament they have to man up and grow a pair. Especially on the defensive side of the ball.

Um, are they all going to share one pair?

THAT'S tough.

[Duvall]

Um, are they all going to share one pair?

THAT'S tough.

Is *that* how the pack-line defense works? If so, pass.

[MCFinARL]

Um, are they all going to share one pair?

THAT'S tough.

Ah, you beat me to it! (Can't spork.)

[OldPhiKap]

Is *that* how the pack-line defense works? If so, pass.

"You must spread some Comments around before commenting on Duvall again."

Shame. That's damn funny.

[Duke3517]

Um, are they all going to share one pair?

THAT'S tough.

Might as well lol

[Seattle Hoo]

Is *that* how the pack-line defense works? If so, pass.

It's the packpair. Not to be confused with the 'Pack pair, which tends to fall off without warning.