This Week in the ACC: 2/23-3/1

[pfrduke]

Apologies for the hiatus last week. The pfrduke clan was on vacation in sunnier, beachier climes than Seattle and it turns out I didn't really want to come in off the beach to post the weekly update. Happy to see the board filled in in my absence. It was an exciting week of ACC hoops that clarified the seeding picture substantially. Virginia sits 2 games clear in the loss column of Duke and Notre Dame, which sit two games clear in the loss column of Louisville and UNC. The real fight looks like it will be for the 4 seed, as UNC will almost certainly win any tiebreaker with Louisville unless both win out. In the middle of the conference, Miami had a heartbreaking loss to the Cardinals while NC State begins a crucial 3-game road swing. My own opinion is that the Pack needs to go 4-0 to feel somewhat comfortable. Meanwhile, Pitt has a pretty favorable finishing slate - Miami is the toughest remaining opponent and that's a Panther home game - and could end up 11-7 in conference and 22-10 overall. I'd like to think that would equal a tournament bid, given the win over Notre Dame and blowout of UNC, but their non-conference schedule is abominable and there's nothing of note on their resume aside from those two conference wins I just mentioned. I think they might still have ACC tournament work to do.

Monday

[81]Georgia Tech hosts [19]Louisville (7:00, ESPN)

Tuesday basically puts State's entire season on the line. Put up or shut up time in the Dean Dome. Notre Dame and Syracuse square off in a former Big East matchup that brings a conflict of styles. And yet the national audience is treated to Pitt hosting Boston College - easily the worst game of the night. The 9:00 Tuesday ESPNU slot has had some truly ugly matchups this season.

[15]UNC hosts [42]NC State (8:00, ESPN3)
[16]Notre Dame hosts [57]Syracuse (8:00, ESPN3)
[74]Pittsburgh hosts [153]Boston College (9:00, ESPNU)


Wednesday raises an interesting point about home court. Duke's two games this week are @Virginia Tech and home against Syracuse. Both are projected (by Pomeroy) as 80-66 Duke victories. So that ranking system treats home court advantage such that playing Virginia Tech in Blacksburg is as hard as playing Syracuse in Durham. That just seems wrong.

[93]Wake Forest hosts [2]Virginia (7:00, ESPN3)
[182]Virginia Tech hosts [8]Duke (9:00, ESPN2)
[56]Miami hosts [100]Florida State (9:00, ESPN3)

Thursday is dark

Friday is dark

Saturday

[86]Clemson hosts [81]Georgia Tech (12:00, ESPN3)
[153]Boston College hosts [42]NC State (12:00, ESPN3)
[100]Florida State hosts [19]Louisville (12:00, ESPN)
[56]Miami hosts [15]UNC (2:00, CBS)
[2]Virginia hosts [182]Virginia Tech (4:00, ESPN3)
[8]Duke hosts [57]Syracuse (7:00, ESPN)

Sunday

[93]Wake Forest hosts [74]Pittsburgh (6:30, ESPNU)

ACC Non-Conference Record: 147-45
ACC Record vs. BCS: 27-26

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

Apologies for the hiatus last week. The pfrduke clan was on vacation in sunnier, beachier climes than Seattle and it turns out I didn't really want to come in off the beach to post the weekly update. Happy to see the board filled in in my absence. It was an exciting week of ACC hoops that clarified the seeding picture substantially. Virginia sits 2 games clear in the loss column of Duke and Notre Dame, which sit two games clear in the loss column of Louisville and UNC. The real fight looks like it will be for the 4 seed, as UNC will almost certainly win any tiebreaker with Louisville unless both win out. In the middle of the conference, Miami had a heartbreaking loss to the Cardinals while NC State begins a crucial 3-game road swing. My own opinion is that the Pack needs to go 4-0 to feel somewhat comfortable. Meanwhile, Pitt has a pretty favorable finishing slate - Miami is the toughest remaining opponent and that's a Panther home game - and could end up 11-7 in conference and 22-10 overall. I'd like to think that would equal a tournament bid, given the win over Notre Dame and blowout of UNC, but their non-conference schedule is abominable and there's nothing of note on their resume aside from those two conference wins I just mentioned. I think they might still have ACC tournament work to do.

Monday

[81]Georgia Tech hosts [19]Louisville (7:00, ESPN)

Tuesday basically puts State's entire season on the line. Put up or shut up time in the Dean Dome. Notre Dame and Syracuse square off in a former Big East matchup that brings a conflict of styles. And yet the national audience is treated to Pitt hosting Boston College - easily the worst game of the night. The 9:00 Tuesday ESPNU slot has had some truly ugly matchups this season.

[15]UNC hosts [42]NC State (8:00, ESPN3)
[16]Notre Dame hosts [57]Syracuse (8:00, ESPN3)
[74]Pittsburgh hosts [153]Boston College (9:00, ESPNU)


Wednesday raises an interesting point about home court. Duke's two games this week are @Virginia Tech and home against Syracuse. Both are projected (by Pomeroy) as 80-66 Duke victories. So that ranking system treats home court advantage such that playing Virginia Tech in Blacksburg is as hard as playing Syracuse in Durham. That just seems wrong.

[93]Wake Forest hosts [2]Virginia (7:00, ESPN3)
[182]Virginia Tech hosts [8]Duke (9:00, ESPN2)
[56]Miami hosts [100]Florida State (9:00, ESPN3)

Thursday is dark

Friday is dark

Saturday

[86]Clemson hosts [81]Georgia Tech (12:00, ESPN3)
[153]Boston College hosts [42]NC State (12:00, ESPN3)
[100]Florida State hosts [19]Louisville (12:00, ESPN)
[56]Miami hosts [15]UNC (2:00, CBS)
[2]Virginia hosts [182]Virginia Tech (4:00, ESPN3)
[8]Duke hosts [57]Syracuse (7:00, ESPN)

Sunday

[93]Wake Forest hosts [74]Pittsburgh (6:30, ESPNU)

ACC Non-Conference Record: 147-45
ACC Record vs. BCS: 27-26


Is that right the NCSTATE VS UNC game is not telivised nationally other than espn3???

[Indoor66]

Is that right the NCSTATE VS UNC game is not telivised nationally other than espn3???

Probably. ESPN does consider quality when selecting games to televise. :cool:

[wilson]

Is that right the NCSTATE VS UNC game is not telivised nationally other than espn3???The ACC television contract is an embarrassing, unfunny joke.

[W&LHoo]

Probably. ESPN does consider quality when selecting games to televise. :cool:

I understand why you guys might take some personal pleasure in that but it's absolutely ridiculous.

It's not just that they seem to have hired someone who doesn't know much about basketball to choose which games they televise - this is beyond chance. They seem to be actively choosing the less interesting and less meaningful games.

[pfrduke]

The ACC television contract is an embarrassing, unfunny joke.


I understand why you guys might take some personal pleasure in that but it's absolutely ridiculous.

It's not just that they seem to have hired someone who doesn't know much about basketball to choose which games they televise - this is beyond chance. They seem to be actively choosing the less interesting and less meaningful games.

It looks like the game is also an ACCNetwork game. I imagine that, as part of the effort to make the ACCN more viable (i.e., get cable customers to demand it), the ACC has taken a strategy of identifying certain high-demand games and placing them on the ACCN. Which is a sort of understandable strategy, but still frustrating when an important (and, hopefully, good) game gets relegated to non-broadcast status.

[jhmoss1812]

I think we lose at Wake on Wednesday and move one game closer to the pack. Wake played us tough in Cville and has the makeup of a team that can beat the packline defense. CMM is great at getting into the line and Mitoglou is a stretch 4 that we don't match up well with on the perimeter. Add to the fact that we may be missing two starters (Anderson and Perrantes) and I'm calling the upset. We also haven't won at Wake Forest in 15 years (WOW). I hope I'm wrong but you heard it here first.

[jv001]

I think we lose at Wake on Wednesday and move one game closer to the pack. Wake played us tough in Cville and has the makeup of a team that can beat the packline defense. CMM is great at getting into the line and Mitoglou is a stretch 4 that we don't match up well with on the perimeter. Add to the fact that we may be missing two starters (Anderson and Perrantes) and I'm calling the upset. We also haven't won at Wake Forest in 15 years (WOW). I hope I'm wrong but you heard it here first.

I did not know that. Duke has had trouble at Lawrence Joel as well, but not that bad. GoDuke!

[Olympic Fan]

(1) The ACC Network is not a joke. It is in 91 markets from Maine to Hawaii. It's available to more homes nationally than ESPU.

(2) I don't believe that the UNC game is State's "entire season on the line." They will still be in the at-large mx with a loss. A win might all but put them in (and could get them out of the play-in game), but a loss isn't nearly fatal. State is currently No. 52 in the RPI and has played the nation's No. 3 ranked schedule. A loss on the road to No. 13 RPI will not hurt those rankings very much.

That's not to say State doesn't have work to do -- they do. But they HAVE to win at Boston College Saturday (that would be a BAD loss), then comes the true pivotal game for the Pack ... next week at Clemson. Tough place to play. They finish with a home game against Syracuse, which will also be important for them ... as well as the ACC Tournament I think if they finish strong after their loss ay UNC, they'll need one ACC Tournament win (on Wednesday). Losing to a top four team on Thursday won't be a big blow.


State will lose Tuesday night in Chapel Hill. They haven't won in Chapel Hill since 2003 -- and they haven't come close in the Dean Dome since 2004 (when they lost 68-66). Their average margin of defeat at UNC in the last 10 trips is close to 20 points a game.

They are 2-23 against UNC since sweeping Matt Doherty's last team. A few of the games in Raleigh have been close, not in Chapel Hill. This one is s snoozer. Over the same span (since 2004) they are 5-16 against Duke with four of the wins coming in Raleigh, one in Tampa (in the 2007 ACC Tournament). They have played us tough in Cameron a couple of times, but haven't beaten us in Durham since 1995

[W&LHoo]

I think we lose at Wake on Wednesday and move one game closer to the pack. Wake played us tough in Cville and has the makeup of a team that can beat the packline defense. CMM is great at getting into the line and Mitoglou is a stretch 4 that we don't match up well with on the perimeter. Add to the fact that we may be missing two starters (Anderson and Perrantes) and I'm calling the upset. We also haven't won at Wake Forest in 15 years (WOW). I hope I'm wrong but you heard it here first.

If Perrantes can't play then I tend to agree with you . . . but you never know. Teams can step up when they're put upon and I saw flashes of who Devon Hall is going to be in a year or two when he had to handle the ball immediately after Perrantes and Brogdon went down. Course, I also saw him get pretty flustered a few times.

[Bob Green]

Quinn Cook and Tyus Jones have been named ACC Player of the Week and Rookie of the Week respectively:

http://www.theacc.com/news/acc-basketball-players-of-the-week-announced-02-23-2015

[OldPhiKap]

I think we lose at Wake on Wednesday and move one game closer to the pack. Wake played us tough in Cville and has the makeup of a team that can beat the packline defense. CMM is great at getting into the line and Mitoglou is a stretch 4 that we don't match up well with on the perimeter. Add to the fact that we may be missing two starters (Anderson and Perrantes) and I'm calling the upset. We also haven't won at Wake Forest in 15 years (WOW). I hope I'm wrong but you heard it here first.

Very hard to believe, but this is not your father's UVa team so not sure anything pre-Bennett is very relevant. Still, Wake plays much better at home and Danny !#$@#$ Manning will have that team in contention before too long. (Middle name courtesy of 1988).


(1) The ACC Network is not a joke. It is in 91 markets from Maine to Hawaii. It's available to more homes nationally than ESPU.

(2) I don't believe that the UNC game is State's "entire season on the line." They will still be in the at-large mx with a loss. A win might all but put them in (and could get them out of the play-in game), but a loss isn't nearly fatal. State is currently No. 52 in the RPI and has played the nation's No. 3 ranked schedule. A loss on the road to No. 13 RPI will not hurt those rankings very much.

That's not to say State doesn't have work to do -- they do. But they HAVE to win at Boston College Saturday (that would be a BAD loss), then comes the true pivotal game for the Pack ... next week at Clemson. Tough place to play. They finish with a home game against Syracuse, which will also be important for them ... as well as the ACC Tournament I think if they finish strong after their loss ay UNC, they'll need one ACC Tournament win (on Wednesday). Losing to a top four team on Thursday won't be a big blow.


State will lose Tuesday night in Chapel Hill. They haven't won in Chapel Hill since 2003 -- and they haven't come close in the Dean Dome since 2004 (when they lost 68-66). Their average margin of defeat at UNC in the last 10 trips is close to 20 points a game.

They are 2-23 against UNC since sweeping Matt Doherty's last team. A few of the games in Raleigh have been close, not in Chapel Hill. This one is s snoozer. Over the same span (since 2004) they are 5-16 against Duke with four of the wins coming in Raleigh, one in Tampa (in the 2007 ACC Tournament). They have played us tough in Cameron a couple of times, but haven't beaten us in Durham since 1995

Hence, ESPN passes. I would really really really like to think this is a game I want to watch. I have drank that bitter gall before. Hope I am wrong this year, but Carolina (our piling on notwithstanding) is a pretty darn good team.

[jv001]

Quinn Cook and Tyus Jones have been named ACC Player of the Week and Rookie of the Week respectively:

http://www.theacc.com/news/acc-basketball-players-of-the-week-announced-02-23-2015

Very deserving for our captain. As far as I'm concerned Quinn has been the key player in our success this season. I'll be the first to admit that I've been a critic in his play in the past, but he's really become a team player. Without his three point shooting we'd be in trouble. He's not forcing shots and not playing out of control. I think he's become a better defensive player and I love the way he leads. Matter of fact, it's great to have 2 leaders in the back court. Yeh, we've got the best back court. GoDuke!

[Olympic Fan]

I think we lose at Wake on Wednesday and move one game closer to the pack. Wake played us tough in Cville and has the makeup of a team that can beat the packline defense. CMM is great at getting into the line and Mitoglou is a stretch 4 that we don't match up well with on the perimeter. Add to the fact that we may be missing two starters (Anderson and Perrantes) and I'm calling the upset. We also haven't won at Wake Forest in 15 years (WOW). I hope I'm wrong but you heard it here first.

I absolutely, totally disagree (unless you are reverse weaufing).

I've seen this scenario dozens of times -- where an inferior team takes the superior team to the wire on the road, then expects to win in the home rematch.

It rarely happens.

The upset happens much more often after the superior team crushes the weaker team at home, then goes on the road for the rematch.

FWIW -- I apply the same reasoning to our return trip to UNC, even tough there is not nearly as big a gap between Duke and UNC as there is between UVa and Wake.

PS I do think it would help your cause if Perrantes can play.

[Seattle Hoo]

PS I do think it would help your cause if Perrantes can play.

That is very much up in the air. I'm going on the assumption he will not. Difficult situation without him given the Anderson injury, but I still like the Hoos to win. I just think the team plays possession by possession and looks for the advantage on each one. We just have to go inside more, get it up on the glass and go after it. Problem is that we are now very depleted on the perimeter. We already have Nolte starting for Anderson. Now either Shayok or Hall has to start for Perrantes and the other one is the only perimeter sub. Any perimeter foul trouble, poor performance, or god forbid further injury would probably be impossible to overcome. But if we can get by Wake, Virginia Tech in the JPJ is next, and Perrantes should definitely be back after that. I feel good about going into Syracuse and Louisville with Perrantes in the lineup. Anderson will most likely be back for Greensboro.

[SCMatt33]

(1) The ACC Network is not a joke. It is in 91 markets from Maine to Hawaii. It's available to more homes nationally than ESPU

This fact does need to be taken with a grain of salt, as those affiliates vary from game to game and are not always easy to find. Weekday games like State-UNC have a much smaller affiliate list because networks are less likely to give airtime during prime time on a weeknight vs. early afternoon on a Saturday. I didn't go through the whole list, but for example I live in PA. According the allfiliate list on theacc.com, only State College (home of Penn State and not much else) will get the game on Tuesday. By contrast, GT-Clemson at noon on Saturday is in 6 PA markets, Philly, Pittsburgh, Harrisburg, Erie, Scranton, and State College, covering the vast majority of viewers in the state. Even that is misleading though as the two biggest markets by far, Philly and Pittburgh (an ACC home market), only cover the game on a digital sub channel meaning that it may or may not be available on cable packages and someone would likely have to either venture far outside the normal channel range that they watch to find or even hook up an antenna to get it.

I recently moved from Knoxville, TN and when I was there, my cable picked up games, but only on a standard definition channel. I had to switch to an antenna to watch games in HD.

Even though the ACCN might technically be available to more homes than ESPNU at its peak, that's not the case much of the time and is often much harder to find for the casual viewer when it is.

[wilson]

This fact does need to be taken with a grain of salt, as those affiliates vary from game to game and are not always easy to find...
Even though the ACCN might technically be available to more homes than ESPNU at its peak, that's not the case much of the time and is often much harder to find for the casual viewer when it is.This was my original point. Just last week in Atlanta, the unc game was on ACC Network, except maybe ESPN, but probably ACC Network (which is split between two Atlanta channels in the first place), but there was a slight chance of it being ESPN after all, depending on your television provider and which direction the wind was blowing. My viewing friends and I had to hunt for a good half hour to figure out which channel it was on, and even then, we weren't really sure about it until tipoff. I'll stand by my assertion, which I've shared before this season to some agreement on this board, that that is embarrassing for the league and a royal pain in the [fanny] for fans.

[OldPhiKap]

GT and 'Ville just beating the joy out of basketball right now. 10-10 through 9 minutes.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

GT and 'Ville just beating the joy out of basketball right now. 10-10 through 9 minutes.
They'll be lucky if the backboards and rims survive.

[Duvall]

Louisville. Well, you guys have a nice arena anyway.

[OldPhiKap]

Louisville. Well, you guys have a nice arena anyway.

Yum!

[gus]

Louisville. Well, you guys have a nice arena anyway.

I turned on, hoping to enjoy some basketball while eating dinner. I turned it off after about 3 minutes.

[Duvall]

Yum!

McDonald's 24, KFC 17.

[OldPhiKap]

"Sugar Shane Battier?!?"

[devildeac]

Yum!

Did you mean Ymm?;):o

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?3840-Ymm-Beer

(shameless, I know)

[brevity]

I'm no fashion expert, but why do the Louisville uniforms look like Chicago Bulls uniforms with a red panty fringe?

[Wander]

Louisville. Well, you guys have a nice arena anyway.

You really expected Georgia Tech to NOT collapse and choke in a close game?

[Duvall]

You really expected Georgia Tech to NOT collapse and choke in a close game?

I mean, this effort is still horrible news for Louisville. They're still going to get run by Notre Dame and Virginia.

[W&LHoo]

I know it's the last thing they want, but I just feel incredible pity for GT.

[OldPhiKap]

I know it's the last thing they want, but I just feel incredible pity for GT.

Gregory did a great job at Dayton and seems like a good guy and good coach. Atlanta is a great town. GT is a great school.

Cannot understand why they cannot get back to competitive.

[Newton_14]

If Perrantes can't play then I tend to agree with you . . . but you never know. Teams can step up when they're put upon and I saw flashes of who Devon Hall is going to be in a year or two when he had to handle the ball immediately after Perrantes and Brogdon went down. Course, I also saw him get pretty flustered a few times.

Can you give us an update on your injuries? Anderson, Perrantes, and Brogdon (I know he just has stitches but that was still a hard blow to the head. Hopefully no lingering effects though)... And can I just say it has been very nice having the UVA fans join us on DBR for the past several weeks. I hope you guys stick around. We need daily grounding from non-Duke blue tinted eyes to keep us honest.

Thanks

[gumbomoop]

Naturally our focus for final two weeks will be on teams in running for ACCT seeds 1-5, but teams hoping to get to NCAAT bubble will play important roles. Also one team with no hope.

1. Can NCSt give Heels a game tomorrow eve in DD? If bubble-hoping and hopping Pack isn't ready to show up this time ..... well, it wouldn't be the first time. I'll pray for a secular miracle.
2. Miami will still entertain bubble hopes, too. My hope is that they beat FSU at home Wed eve, giving them momentum going into Sat at home v. UNC.
3. Probably be satisfied if Heels drop either of ^ games.
4. UL just escaped poor GT, so Cards still very much in battle with Heels for ACCT 4-seed. Not to mention in a key spot, schedule-wise, to help Duke get ACCT 2, even 1-seed. Cards will think they can win out, get to 13-5. That would mean winning Sat @ FSU, then @ Yum v. ND and UVa. Other than Duke's own games, UL holds key to our ACCT seed.
5. 'Cuse, too, could help us a lot, if they would just upset @ ND tomorrow, lose by 20 @ CIS on Sat, and then nip the Hoos in triple-OT next Big Monday. Let it be a Cooney 3-bomb at the buzzer, which refs first waive off as too late, but then, after reviewing it for 20 minutes, decide it counts. Cooney, btw, finishes the game 1-17 on 3's. DBR Hoo-posters respond with remarkable calm, offering Duke nutters a badly-needed lesson in good sportsmanship in defeat.

[ChillinDuke]

Apologies for the hiatus last week. The pfrduke clan was on vacation in sunnier, beachier climes than Seattle and it turns out I didn't really want to come in off the beach to post the weekly update.

How dare you.

- Chillin

[OldPhiKap]

How dare you.

- Chillin

To be fair, Duke played Carolina. Not sure what else I needed to know last week.

[DarkstarWahoo]

Anderson appears to be on schedule with his rehab. My guess is he'll play in Greensboro, if not Louisville. Brogdon practiced today and should be good to go. Perrantes has a broken nose and mild concussion and is day to day. My gut says he sits on Wednesday, but I have no inside info.

And Newton, I must say you guys have been most hospitable. I like this place a lot. I still can't bring myself to like your coach, but y'all are good eggs.

[gumbomoop]

I like this place a lot. I still can't bring myself to like your coach, but y'all are good eggs.

Honesty, invariably admirable in theory, is not invariably the best policy in practice. We'll see how it works out.

I'd be surprised if many DBR folks think Bennett anything other than a good egg and fine coach. The hate Duke/hate Krzyzewski crowd is ginormous, yet his admirers are legion, too.

[OldPhiKap]

Anderson appears to be on schedule with his rehab. My guess is he'll play in Greensboro, if not Louisville. Brogdon practiced today and should be good to go. Perrantes has a broken nose and mild concussion and is day to day. My gut says he sits on Wednesday, but I have no inside info.

And Newton, I must say you guys have been most hospitable. I like this place a lot. I still can't bring myself to like your coach, but y'all are good eggs.


Honesty, invariably admirable in theory, is not invariably the best policy in practice. We'll see how it works out.

I'd be surprised if many DBR folks think Bennett anything other than a good egg and fine coach. The hate Duke/hate Krzyzewski crowd is ginormous, yet his admirers are legion, too.

I can appreciate Darkstar's point of view. I didn't like Terry Holland but liked how he ran his program. I didn't like Valvano but admired his ability to motivate.

Reason tatters, and all of that.

[Seattle Hoo]

Can you give us an update on your injuries? Anderson, Perrantes, and Brogdon (I know he just has stitches but that was still a hard blow to the head. Hopefully no lingering effects though)... And can I just say it has been very nice having the UVA fans join us on DBR for the past several weeks. I hope you guys stick around. We need daily grounding from non-Duke blue tinted eyes to keep us honest.

Thanks

Brogdon is fine. Perrantes probably will not play Wednesday. Should be ok for Saturday against Tech, probably with a mask. I worry about the effect on his peripheral vision, but he'll be fine. Anderson will most likely play the ACC tournament. He is working on conditioning already, and working his right hand. He might be ready for Louisville. I expect to have all hands on deck in Greensboro. I think it could be an advantage having Anderson sit for four weeks. He'll be relatively rested and come in with fresh energy at just the right time, sort of like the crack unit that gets pulled from the line for replacements, then gets thrown back into the fray at the decisive moment and carries the field because the opponents are all exhausted from ceaseless battle. It's not like a foot injury that keeps you inactive until fully healed.

It's been fun. Beats dealing with the neuroses of our fan base all the time.

[wgl1228]

UVA with 3 out of 4 final games on road against respectable teams who play tough. Really hope they lose two and we win out to get ACC reg season and number 1 seed. Doubt it though, that D is amazing!

[jv001]

Anderson appears to be on schedule with his rehab. My guess is he'll play in Greensboro, if not Louisville. Brogdon practiced today and should be good to go. Perrantes has a broken nose and mild concussion and is day to day. My gut says he sits on Wednesday, but I have no inside info.

And Newton, I must say you guys have been most hospitable. I like this place a lot. I still can't bring myself to like your coach, but y'all are good eggs.

It's refreshing to have Duke opponents' fans come on the Duke site and discuss ACC basketball without the little digs. You know, "so and so played well, but I thought he put his shoulder into my guy on that drive that won the game." :cool: As for Coach K, most of the great coaches have their haters. Not saying you have our coach. Glad to have you guys/gals on this site. GoDuke!

[W&LHoo]

It's refreshing to have Duke opponents' fans come on the Duke site and discuss ACC basketball without the little digs. You know, "so and so played well, but I thought he put his shoulder into my guy on that drive that won the game." :cool: As for Coach K, most of the great coaches have their haters. Not saying you have our coach. Glad to have you guys/gals on this site. GoDuke!

I'll agree with my fellow Hoos that I like you folks, and I even generally like your kids. I have trouble liking K.

You guys are reasonable and also willing/interested in trying to engage in league-wide conversation objectively. Nearly every other board just spirals into these endless naval gazing sessions. Add to that the fact that TheSabre is clinging to an infuriatingly archaic format and this is a very nice place to spend a little time.

[wilson]

I'll agree with my fellow Hoos that I like you folks, and I even generally like your kids. I have trouble liking K.

You guys are reasonable and also willing/interested in trying to engage in league-wide conversation objectively. Nearly every other board just spirals into these endless naval gazing sessions. Add to that the fact that TheSabre is clinging to an infuriatingly archaic format and this is a very nice place to spend a little time.I have my thoughts about why you might feel this way about Coach K, but, being pretty confident that we can have the conversation in civil fashion, I'm interested to hear why you (and a couple of your 'Hoo brethren who have recently expressed similar sentiments) dislike him.

[PackMan97]

Just to inject a little about Carolina / State and the legacy of Dean Smith. Data is from the Wainstein Report and UNC's response to SACCS second inquiry.


22 of the first 25 fake enrollments by athletes were by Dean Smith players.



Dean Smith's last 8 years at UNC:

Fake Enrollments by Sport
MBB-54
FB-26
WBB-2
All other sports-0


I no longer consider the folks in Cheater Hill to be NC State's rival. A team I hate? Yes, but not our rival. To me rivals are worthy of each others respect and above all let it play out on the court in a fair competition. That is not Carolina. They are cheaters and have been cheaters over the past three decades. Anything they have been won is on the backs of players who do not attend classes and who are not even in the loosest sense of the word, college students.

#GTHC

[jhmoss1812]

I have my thoughts about why you might feel this way about Coach K, but, being pretty confident that we can have the conversation in civil fashion, I'm interested to hear why you (and a couple of your 'Hoo brethren who have recently expressed similar sentiments) dislike him.

I actually don't mind Coach K. Does he have flaws? Of course. But he's an excellent coach and, in my encounters with him, a very nice human being. Any dislike I have for Duke comes from the fact that I grew up in Chapel Hill and it's customary to hate Duke there. Most of my Duke hate was for former Duke players and sprung from jealousy that they had a great program that won national championships. Plus, I have a lot of Duke friends who can be incredibly annoying. But I don't really have any hate for any of the Duke players these days. I'm not sure if I'm growing as a human being, they're just more likable or they just don't stay as long. So, I may be in the minority of Hoo fans but life seems too short to hate anymore. Do I root for Duke to win? Of course not. But I'm a diehard UVA fan before anything else so if a Duke wins helps UVA, go Duke. The problem is that Duke winning usually is not good for UVA.

[OldPhiKap]

I actually don't mind Coach K. Does he have flaws? Of course. But he's an excellent coach and, in my encounters with him, a very nice human being. Any dislike I have for Duke comes from the fact that I grew up in Chapel Hill and it's customary to hate Duke there. Most of my Duke hate was for former Duke players and sprung from jealousy that they had a great program that won national championships. Plus, I have a lot of Duke friends who can be incredibly annoying. But I don't really have any hate for any of the Duke players these days. I'm not sure if I'm growing as a human being, they're just more likable or they just don't stay as long. So, I may be in the minority of Hoo fans but life seems too short to hate anymore. Do I root for Duke to win? Of course not. But I'm a diehard UVA fan before anything else so if a Duke wins helps UVA, go Duke. The problem is that Duke winning usually is not good for UVA.

Thank you for the response to Wilson' question. A very reasonable position.

If I were not a Duke fan, I could find lots of reasons to dislike K (or at least, not affirmatively like him) and certainly some of the past players. Especially if Duke was a conference rival of my team. Everyone's got those players too -- Tom Sheehey was the most hated man in the league when I was in school, even though Virginia was a fine program with a well-respected and long-tenured coach. I am sure that Virginia fans would return the love for Dan Meagher.

[DarkstarWahoo]

I have my thoughts about why you might feel this way about Coach K, but, being pretty confident that we can have the conversation in civil fashion, I'm interested to hear why you (and a couple of your 'Hoo brethren who have recently expressed similar sentiments) dislike him.

He's an extremely successful coach at an extremely successful school who has beaten up on my team in the past. That's 99 percent of it. The other 1 percent is the fact that he gets animated and works the refs a great deal (and is successful at it). The "Sampson played the whole game" stuff doesn't help, but I understand that it's not fair to expect perfect memory of 30-year-old events.

I have no doubt that he's a good man, and I know he's helped a lot of people. And I know I'd worship the ground he walked on if he'd had his exact career, but at UVA. There's nothing rational about it.

I respect the hell out of him and his accomplishments. There was something in a Dean thread here about the difference between sports hate and real hate, and that's what's at play here, except that "hate" is too strong a word. It's "sports dislike."

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

It's refreshing to have Duke opponents' fans come on the Duke site and discuss ACC basketball without the little digs. You know, "so and so played well, but I thought he put his shoulder into my guy on that drive that won the game." :cool: As for Coach K, most of the great coaches have their haters. Not saying you have our coach. Glad to have you guys/gals on this site. GoDuke!

Quality Jab sir

[devildeac]

I can appreciate Darkstar's point of view. I didn't like Terry Holland but liked how he ran his program. I didn't like Valvano but admired his ability to motivate.

Reason tatters, and all of that.

Not like Terry Holland? WTH? The man named his dog Dean cuz it whined so much. How can you not like that;)?:confused:

Not like Valvano? WTH? The dude "loved/obeyed" the Crazies. (Once when they chanted sit-sit-sit after a particularly animated trip on to the court, he took a seat on the bench. Of course, the Crazies crossed the line when they chanted roll-over/roll-over. He didn't obey then. Bad Jimmy. :o)

[PackMan97]

Not like Terry Holland? WTH? The man named his dog Dean cuz it whined so much. How can you not like that;)?:confused:

Not like Valvano? WTH? The dude "loved/obeyed" the Crazies. (Once when they chanted sit-sit-sit after a particularly animated trip on to the court, he took a seat on the bench. Of course, the Crazies crossed the line when they chanted roll-over/roll-over. He didn't obey then. Bad Jimmy. :o)

The great thing about Valvano is that he loved the spectacle of the game. I also think he taught that to his teams. Play your best when the spotlight is the brightest. He wasn't afraid to goose a hostile crowd and ask his team silence it. I think that's part of what he loved about the game. Playing in an empty/quiet gym would have bored him to death.

[duketaylor]

Also, Valvano once came out to talk to the Crazies and said he hoped that State students would be so enamored of their team. Loved and miss Jimmy V;)

[OldPhiKap]

Jimmy V also scored the last basket at Carmichael.

My views towards V and THolland were probably similar to several of our guests. I respected their coaching, I didn't like losing to them. Jimmy also had some, um, interesting student-athletes later in his tenure.

But I did not mean to sidetrack the thread with my original comment. The point I was making is: when someone beats you a lot, you can understand why there is some lack of like. And, as with V, TH, and even Dean (for me), time heals some wounds as the losses recede in the memory. I think Bennett is the real deal and will build an extended contender; the last two years are not a blip.

More important than any of this, though:

GO WOLFPACK!!!!

[W&LHoo]

He's an extremely successful coach at an extremely successful school who has beaten up on my team in the past. That's 99 percent of it. The other 1 percent is the fact that he gets animated and works the refs a great deal (and is successful at it). The "Sampson played the whole game" stuff doesn't help, but I understand that it's not fair to expect perfect memory of 30-year-old events.

I have no doubt that he's a good man, and I know he's helped a lot of people. And I know I'd worship the ground he walked on if he'd had his exact career, but at UVA. There's nothing rational about it.

I respect the hell out of him and his accomplishments. There was something in a Dean thread here about the difference between sports hate and real hate, and that's what's at play here, except that "hate" is too strong a word. It's "sports dislike."

This basically captures my view as well. I'm self aware enough to recognize that seeing a highly successful team at a school with a similar academic profile while we struggled contributes significantly.

That said, I do feel like he has consistently "managed his relationship" with the zebras to such an extent that he has garnered a small but significant advantage for your team over the years. Entirely possible it's confirmation bias but it's a definite impression I have.

I'm absolutely positive he's a great guy personally and he's obviously done a lot that he didn't need to do to support the sport and its players.

[PackMan97]

Jimmy V also scored the last basket at Carmichael.

My views towards V and THolland were probably similar to several of our guests. I respected their coaching, I didn't like losing to them. Jimmy also had some, um, interesting student-athletes later in his tenure.

GO WOLFPACK!!!!

If only V had set up a fake curriculum to stuff all those non-student athletes into and made sure they were given a diploma after 4 years in the program...then everyone would be proclaiming "The Wolfpack Way" and bragging about his 96.6% graduation rate...if only.

[CDu]

This basically captures my view as well. I'm self aware enough to recognize that seeing a highly successful team at a school with a similar academic profile while we struggled contributes significantly.

That said, I do feel like he has consistently "managed his relationship" with the zebras to such an extent that he has garnered a small but significant advantage for your team over the years. Entirely possible it's confirmation bias but it's a definite impression I have.

I'm absolutely positive he's a great guy personally and he's obviously done a lot that he didn't need to do to support the sport and its players.

Your viewpoint is a common one from opposing fans. However, I think it is a flawed viewpoint (just a commonly-shared one). Every successful coach works the officials. Every single one. Tony Bennett does it. Coach K does it. Roy Williams does it. Dean Smith did it. Bobby Knight did it. Rick Pitino does it. Tom Izzo does it. Jim Calhoun did it. And so on.

[DarkstarWahoo]

OldPhiKap, you hit the nail on the head. I softened on Dean after he retired, and I imagine the same will happen with K. I never had any animosity toward Valvano, as the bulk of his tenure was slightly before my time - once I was really paying attention to him, he was ESPYs Jimmy V, not national champion Jimmy V. He was also more "lovable," for lack of a better word, even during his most successful years, as devildeac's story indicates. He "played the game" better than Dean or K.

Part of the difference, too, was that NC State went in the tank after he left. So he was just a good coach, not the leader of (in my young mind) an unstoppable juggernaut like Dean was and I imagine K will be.

I think most UVA fans recognize that we have something special in Bennett. I know I can't be objective here, but he seems like he's pretty easy to root for. If I'd been a sentient fan in the early days of K's tenure, I think I would have viewed him similarly to the way you guys talk about Bennett. I hope he has enough success that opposing fans turn on him :D

Put another way, I can't imagine opposing fans making the same comments about Dave Leitao.

[wilson]

...I can't imagine opposing fans making the same comments about Dave Leitao.But we loooved Pete Gillen. ;)
Thanks to you and all who've responded to my question on opposing fans' views of Coach K. Interesting window into less-enlightened souls.

[OldPhiKap]

If only V had set up a fake curriculum to stuff all those non-student athletes into and made sure they were given a diploma after 4 years in the program...then everyone would be proclaiming "The Wolfpack Way" and bragging about his 96.6% graduation rate...if only.

And to give credit where credit is due -- State cleaned house and paid for its mistake. Our fellow Triangle team, by contrast, refuses to do so and refuses to even get off its high horse.

For me, the flagship is now in Raleigh.

[PackMan97]

As a NC State fan, I love Coach K. He pisses off Carolina fans to a great extent and that earns him an A+ from me. Not to mention he was a friend of V in his last years which is just icing.

[gumbomoop]

So he [Valvano] was just a good coach, not the leader of (in my young mind) an unstoppable juggernaut like Dean was and I imagine K will be.

I'm not sure how to ask for clarification without sounding snarky, but I will try. Not trying to be grammar police, but I am having trouble parsing your sentence here. I should understand the "will be" to refer to an implied "in my older mind," i.e., to how you might in the future come to recognize Krzyzewski as "an unstoppable juggernaut"? Rather than to how K might in the future achieve sufficient success to be a juggernaut? He won't need 1300 to convince you down the road, right? Because 1200 might be his tops.

Krzyzewski has at the very least already matched, as all but Heel nutters would concede, Dean's juggernautery. All Duke fanatics look forward, in the near future, to more K-juggernautery, but he's had a nearly unstoppable last 30 years.

I'm on record, repeatedly, praising Bennett. I genuinely hope he stays at UVa and wins his share, as I expect he will. Maybe he can continue cultivating a sort of anti-Calipari "stability-model." I'm disappointed that, as things seem to be playing out, Hoos and Devils appear to be moving toward same side of bracket, opposite UK. I'd prefer both Hoos and Devils potentially get a shot at Cats. You first.

Go Bennett. And don't go away, Bennett.

[pfrduke]

That said, I do feel like he has consistently "managed his relationship" with the zebras to such an extent that he has garnered a small but significant advantage for your team over the years. Entirely possible it's confirmation bias but it's a definite impression I have.

I guess this is not necessarily something that makes him likeable, per se, but from a coaching perspective, why shouldn't he do this? Put another way, don't be upset with K because he's done this successfully, be upset that your coach hasn't worked to do the same thing.

[W&LHoo]

I guess this is not necessarily something that makes him likeable, per se, but from a coaching perspective, why shouldn't he do this? Put another way, don't be upset with K because he's done this successfully, be upset that your coach hasn't worked to do the same thing.

I agree most coaches do this to some extent and that it is effective, but I'm not sure it is, properly, a part of the game. Rather, it seems to me to be a bit like putting your thumb on the scale.

It seems as though we should be striving for the refs to be impartial and objective arbiters beyond all mortal reproach. Obviously, we have a long way to go.

[alteran]

Not like Valvano? WTH? The dude "loved/obeyed" the Crazies. (Once when they chanted sit-sit-sit after a particularly animated trip on to the court, he took a seat on the bench. Of course, the Crazies crossed the line when they chanted roll-over/roll-over. He didn't obey then. Bad Jimmy. :o)


The great thing about Valvano is that he loved the spectacle of the game. I also think he taught that to his teams. Play your best when the spotlight is the brightest. He wasn't afraid to goose a hostile crowd and ask his team silence it. I think that's part of what he loved about the game. Playing in an empty/quiet gym would have bored him to death.

Absolutely.

And stuff like this has always been the best way to disarm the Crazies a little. I remember Cremins combing his hair when the fans cheered "Grecian! Forumula!" and Lefty doing the same when the Crazies did "Bald! Head!", and it always got a laugh and then the Crazies dialed it down.

[alteran]

If only V had set up a fake curriculum to stuff all those non-student athletes into and made sure they were given a diploma after 4 years in the program...then everyone would be proclaiming "The Wolfpack Way" and bragging about his 96.6% graduation rate...if only.

You know, I have to wonder-- what in the hell did that 3.4% have to do not to "graduate?"

[tbyers11]

But we loooved Pete Gillen. ;)

I just wished he had stayed around long enough to build that statue of Taymon Domzalski.

[alteran]

Part of the difference, too, was that NC State went in the tank after he left.

Well, a big part of that is that when a handful of problems with players showed up in news, NCSU got tired of dings to their reputation, and moved heaven and earth to remove any hint of problems with respect to academics and athletics-- regardless of what it did to the associated sports programs.

Hmmmm.

[gumbomoop]

Absolutely.

And stuff like this has always been the best way to disarm the Crazies a little. I remember Cremins combing his hair when the fans cheered "Grecian! Forumula!" and Lefty doing the same when the Crazies did "Bald! Head!", and it always got a laugh and then the Crazies dialed it down.

Yes. Analogously, Krzyzewski is much more effective with media and sometimes even with refs through his humor and analysis than through, umm, other approaches. In fact, he's a pretty witty guy. Just occasionally his dry wit flirts with the the snark-line, but not usually. He's more funny than angry, as I suspect his friends and even players know.

Dunleavy definitely knew, but he decided that K's jokes couldn't possibly sustain him for another year, so he left. If K had been smart enough and saved some of his jokes, Dunleavy would've stayed. Sort of like how K regretted not redshirting Kelly. Hope he's learned his lesson, and doesn't give away all his funny lines too soon to Kennard.

[gumbomoop]

You know, I have to wonder-- what in the hell did that 3.4% have to do not to "graduate?"

Just so. Too, I wonder about the flaws in those plagiarized papers that lowered the mark from A to B+. Probably misspelled the prof's [well, "prof's"] name. Or got the date wrong on the title page. Wrong year.

[DarkstarWahoo]

I'm not sure how to ask for clarification without sounding snarky, but I will try. Not trying to be grammar police, but I am having trouble parsing your sentence here. I should understand the "will be" to refer to an implied "in my older mind," i.e., to how you might in the future come to recognize Krzyzewski as "an unstoppable juggernaut"? Rather than to how K might in the future achieve sufficient success to be a juggernaut? He won't need 1300 to convince you down the road, right? Because 1200 might be his tops.

Krzyzewski has at the very least already matched, as all but Heel nutters would concede, Dean's juggernautery. All Duke fanatics look forward, in the near future, to more K-juggernautery, but he's had a nearly unstoppable last 30 years.

Agree completely. I meant it in the context of what I was saying with NC State, where they couldn't build on Valvano's success. The program, not the coach. UNC kept it going with Guthridge, and as flawed of a coach as Roy is, he still has them near the top of the league. Even Doherty went to a Final Four, IIRC.

We obviously can't make that call yet with K, but I imagine it going more like UNC post-Dean than NC State post-Valvano. That's what I was saying.

[gumbomoop]

Agree completely. I meant it in the context of what I was saying with NC State, where they couldn't build on Valvano's success. UNC kept it going with Guthridge, and as flawed of a coach as Roy is, he still has them near the top of the league. Even Doherty went to a Final Four, IIRC.

We obviously can't make that call yet with K, but I imagine it going more like UNC post-Dean than NC State post-Valvano. That's what I was saying.

Oh, ok, I really did misunderstand. Juggernaut here connotes beyond-Krzyzewski. I'll disagree, or maybe connote differently, to insist that K has already achieved juggernautery, leaving the question of whether his successor can -- your connotation -- maintain the juggernaut.

[DarkstarWahoo]

Oh, ok, I really did misunderstand. Juggernaut here connotes beyond-Krzyzewski. I'll disagree, or maybe connote differently, to insist that K has already achieved juggernautery, leaving the question of whether his successor can -- your connotation -- maintain the juggernaut.

Absolutely. My point was that I held less dislike for Valvano in part because NC State didn't keep beating up on UVA (or much of anyone else) after he left.

Also, I can't edit the post now (because you quoted it? Is that how it works?) but wanted to correct my assertion that Doherty went to a Final Four.

[Olympic Fan]

Agree completely. I meant it in the context of what I was saying with NC State, where they couldn't build on Valvano's success. The program, not the coach. UNC kept it going with Guthridge, and as flawed of a coach as Roy is, he still has them near the top of the league. Even Doherty went to a Final Four, IIRC.

You don't remember correctly. Doherty never sniffed a Final Four.

His first UNC team was 26-7 and earned a No. 2 NCAA seed, but was upset in the second round by Penn State (coached by Bruce Parkhill, the brother of a former UVa star)

His second team was 8-20 and didn't go anywhere in postseason.

His third (and last) team was 19-16 and lost in the third round of the NIT (at home).

Doherty is the only coach to fail at UNC since Tom Scott in the early '50s (even Gut had two final fours in three years). But in the larger picture, you are right about the program -- Dean established a juggernaut that was able to survive even an idiot coach such as Doherty.

I don't think Valvano ever got his program to that level. If Tony Bennett does what he's doing now for 20 years, then I think Virginia will be an elite program.

It's like Duke before K. We had some good coaches (Bubas and Foster) and some nice runs. But it was Coach K who made Duke a program on a level with Kentucky, Kansas, UCLA and UNC.

That's why I believe that Duke will continue to be an elite program after K leaves. There may be some bumps (as, say, UCLA has experienced and UNC under Doherty), but such programs do not tolerate failure long -- as Doherty found out.

[PackMan97]

But in the larger picture, you are right about the program -- Dean established a juggernaut that was able to survive even an idiot coach such as Doherty.


The Potemkin Curriculum and eligibility scam started under Dean certainly had a lot to do with that Juggernaut. There is a reason that Carolina has never looked outside the family when they had to replace Dean, Gut and Doh! Heck, their desperation to keep it in the family is why they had to hire Doherty to begin with. They knew what would happen if they brought in someone outside the family, someone who wasn't properly educated on "The Carolina Way"

Let's not give the Cheaters in Chapel Hill more credit than they deserve.

The reason State fell off after V is because we got hammered for ignoring the "student" part of student athlete and because V was our program. Even then, failing to keep players eligible caused a fair bit of inconsistency in V's time at State as we'd have to go the JuCo route or lose players earlier than we'd like to the NBA (or to ineligibility). Smith, Gut, Doh and Williams never had those problems because UNC players are never ineligible.

[Tom B.]

You don't remember correctly. Doherty never sniffed a Final Four.

His first UNC team was 26-7 and earned a No. 2 NCAA seed, but was upset in the second round by Penn State (coached by Bruce Parkhill, the brother of a former UVa star)

His second team was 8-20 and didn't go anywhere in postseason.

His third (and last) team was 19-16 and lost in the third round of the NIT (at home).

Doherty is the only coach to fail at UNC since Tom Scott in the early '50s (even Gut had two final fours in three years). But in the larger picture, you are right about the program -- Dean established a juggernaut that was able to survive even an idiot coach such as Doherty.




Doherty did have the Tarheels ranked #1 for a couple of weeks in February of 2001, before the wheels came off their season and they lost on five consecutive Sundays -- regular season losses to Clemson, Virginia, and Duke, then another loss to Duke in the ACC Tournament final, and finally the loss to Penn State in the second round of the NCAA Tournament.

That was also the season that Shane Battier was laughably forced to share the ACC Player of the Year Award with UNC's Joseph Forte.

[FerryFor50]

Doherty did have the Tarheels ranked #1 for a couple of weeks in February of 2001, before the wheels came off their season and they lost on five consecutive Sundays -- regular season losses to Clemson, Virginia, and Duke, then another loss to Duke in the ACC Tournament final, and finally the loss to Penn State in the second round of the NCAA Tournament.

That was also the season that Shane Battier was laughably forced to share the ACC Player of the Year Award with UNC's Joseph Forte.

If I recall, a lot of Doh's problems were centered around his player-coach relationships. If he had guys like McCants buy in to his system then he would have had more success. But they quit on him.

[DarkstarWahoo]

For the record, as enjoyable as the topic is for all fan bases accounted for here, it was never my intention to turn this thread into a discussion of Matt Doherty's tenure.

[FerryFor50]

For the record, as enjoyable as the topic is for all fan bases accounted for here, it was never my intention to turn this thread into a discussion of Matt Doherty's tenure.

No worries.

That's one of our favorite UNC topics to cover around here. :cool:

[Tripping William]

If I recall, a lot of Doh's problems were centered around his player-coach relationships. If he had guys like McCants buy in to his system then he would have had more success. But they quit on him.

I attribute Doh's ultimate demise almost completely to Andre Buckner. :D

[OldPhiKap]

For the record, as enjoyable as the topic is for all fan bases accounted for here, it was never my intention to turn this thread into a discussion of Matt Doherty's tenure.

We can talk about it all day!

D'oh was ACC COY his first year I believe. But McCants and Sean May (particularly, IIRC) hated him and helped force him out. It was also told, correct or not, that D'oh replaced some long-time Dean loyalists in the office with his own folks when he first took over and that this did not sit well with El Deano.

Crash, burn. When will I learn?

[alteran]

D'oh was ACC COY his first year I believe. But McCants and Sean May (particularly, IIRC) hated him and helped force him out. It was also told, correct or not, that D'oh replaced some long-time Dean loyalists in the office with his own folks when he first took over and that this did not sit well with El Deano.

And yet, strangely, D'oh DID honor Dean's request not to mess at all with the academic support staff.

[OldPhiKap]

And yet, strangely, D'oh DID honor Dean's request not to mess at all with the academic support staff.

4 coaching tenures, no accountability.

And apparently, no shame.

[brevity]

But McCants and Sean May (particularly, IIRC) hated him and helped force him out.

Sean May reportedly told Coach Doherty "This locker room isn't big enough for both of us." Inside sources disagree as to whether he was taking a rebellious stand or merely stating fact.

[OldPhiKap]

Sean May reportedly told Coach Doherty "This locker room isn't big enough for both of us." Inside sources disagree as to whether he was taking a rebellious stand or merely stating fact.

"The Round Mound of Letdown"

[grossbus]

Don't think so. Again.

[devildeac]

For the record, as enjoyable as the topic is for all fan bases accounted for here, it was never my intention to turn this thread into a discussion of Matt Doherty's tenure.


No worries.

That's one of our favorite UNC topics to cover around here. :cool:

Mention 8-20 anytime here and you will always elicit a laugh or chuckle and a statement how much we liked D'oh as a unc coach. ;)

[devildeac]

You don't remember correctly. Doherty never sniffed a Final Four.

His first UNC team was 26-7 and earned a No. 2 NCAA seed, but was upset in the second round by Penn State (coached by Bruce Parkhill, the brother of a former UVa star)

His second team was 8-20 and didn't go anywhere in postseason.

His third (and last) team was 19-16 and lost in the third round of the NIT (at home).

Doherty is the only coach to fail at UNC since Tom Scott in the early '50s (even Gut had two final fours in three years). But in the larger picture, you are right about the program -- Dean established a juggernaut that was able to survive even an idiot coach such as Doherty.

I don't think Valvano ever got his program to that level. If Tony Bennett does what he's doing now for 20 years, then I think Virginia will be an elite program.

It's like Duke before K. We had some good coaches (Bubas and Foster) and some nice runs. But it was Coach K who made Duke a program on a level with Kentucky, Kansas, UCLA and UNC.

That's why I believe that Duke will continue to be an elite program after K leaves. There may be some bumps (as, say, UCLA has experienced and UNC under Doherty), but such programs do not tolerate failure long -- as Doherty found out.

Well, technically D'oh did "sniff" a Final Four as the (pre) cheaters won (were "gifted") a NC in 1982.:mad: (yea, I know, player vs coach but it's still nice to fondly remember the 8-20 D'oh as one of unc's finest coaching marvels)

[gumbomoop]

Don't think so. Again.

Yes, I'll guess they do, will make it a game, and ...... win. If my semi-quasi-intuitive-educated guess turns out to have been truly dumb, it wouldn't be the first time. [Ask Newton_14 or CDu about me and JMM. By all rights I should have a lifetime ban......]

Pack to win.

[OldPhiKap]

Yes, I'll guess they do, will make it a game, and ...... win. If my semi-quasi-intuitive-educated guess turns out to have been truly dumb, it wouldn't be the first time. [Ask Newton_14 or CDu about me and JMM. By all rights I should have a lifetime ban......]

Pack to win.

Hmmmmmmm........

[FerryFor50]

Pack playing decent. UNC playing like garbage.

Lots of guys on UNC trying to do way too much on offense. Jackson has taken 7 shots. Made 2 of them. I think once he hit a 3 he's been in constant heat check mode.

Paige has taken 1 shot.

State's winning the battle on the boards. Cat Barber has been taking most of the shots for State and isn't really looking for his teammates too much. I mean, he's got a mismatch against Paige in terms of speed, but you gotta keep Turner and Lacey involved. Lacey has raised his arms a few times expecting a pass.

Let's see if they keep it up in the 2nd.

For the record, the crowd seems a little more alive, but not up to Roy's standards, I'm sure. :)

[gumbomoop]

Go 'Cuse! Please win @ ND. Really, please.

Go Panthers! Maybe winner of Miami @ Pitt next week will get into NCAAT? I'm asking.

And definitely Go Pack!

[duketaylor]

No way this keeps up. unc with 18 at half at home? Are they playing UVA?

Hopefully Syracuse can do Notre Dame.

We can only hope.

[FerryFor50]

And the wheels start to come off for the pack. UNC on a run. Lead down to 8.

[FerryFor50]

12-0 run by UNC now. Lead down to 4.

Gottfried has burned 3 timeouts in the past 4 minutes.

[Duvall]

Oh, State. This is Karl Hess' fault, right? Or John Swofford's? Or Af-Am Studies. Yeah, that's it.

[gumbomoop]

It's a commonplace to say that basketball is frequently a game of runs. Heels on a run, Pack with the runs.

[FerryFor50]

It's a commonplace to say that basketball is frequently a game of runs. Heels on a run, Pack with the runs.

It's a messy game.

[Newton_14]

Don't think so. Again.
They may lose but the Pack came in with a great game plan. They slowed the game to a snails pace. At the 11:41 mark of the 2nd half right now, and 12 times State has taken the shot clock under 5 before shooting.

It worked well until the 16 min mark of the second half to the 12 min mark when a 16 point lead was trimmed to 4.


38-34 with 11:41 left...

[FerryFor50]

State has absorbed the UNC barrage has hit a few shots now. 5 by Turner.

Still looking shaky, though.

Crowd has settled down a bit.

[Newton_14]

State has absorbed the UNC barrage has hit a few shots now. 5 by Turner.

Still looking shaky, though.

Crowd has settled down a bit.

And Jackson hits a 3. Typical cheater luck. The guy can't shoot a lick from down town. 24% 3 point shooter.

I wonder what percentage of unc-cheat points come from cherry picking or offensive putbacks? They have no offense outside of that.

[FerryFor50]

NC State is playing a lot like a team that knows it hasn't beaten UNC in the Dean Dome in a while.

[FerryFor50]

And Jackson hits a 3. Typical cheater luck. The guy can't shoot a lick from down town. 24% 3 point shooter.

I wonder what percentage of unc-cheat points come from cherry picking or offensive putbacks? They have no offense outside of that.

Jackson has been crazy aggressive on offense this game.

[dukelifer]

NC State is playing a lot like a team that knows it hasn't beaten UNC in the Dean Dome in a while.

Shocked if they can pull it off- just not in their DNA

[FerryFor50]

BeeJay Anya is terrorizing the paint with 6 blocks.

UNC up 4 with 2:32 left.

Playing at a UVA pace...

[FerryFor50]

HUGE sequence there.

Paige turns it over (he's been deferring a lot this game).

Lacey scores for and 1. 8 point NCSU lead with 1:30 left.

And then Meeks turns it over with 1:14 left.

[FerryFor50]

UNC has played a lot like NCSU down the stretch.

Now an 11 point lead with 40 seconds left.

For some reason, Meeks just jacked up a 3. UNC fouling now.

Guess the crowd wasn't the issue, eh, Roy? (of course now they're filing out)

[BigWayne]

Carolina unraveling at this point. Pack looks like they will hold on.

[davekay1971]

Well that was satisfying. Like a fine wine. With cheese.

'Bout time for a stroll over to Inside Carolina...

[gurufrisbee]

Happy!!!

[OldPhiKap]

Let me be the first to say:

BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!

[devildeac]

My wife forbid me to watch any of the game with the Pack up 8 and about a minute to go. I love that woman:o.

[arnie]

UNC has played a lot like NCSU down the stretch.

Now an 11 point lead with 40 seconds left.

For some reason, Meeks just jacked up a 3. UNC fouling now.

Guess the crowd wasn't the issue, eh, Roy? (of course now they're filing out)

They had a nice "Tar" "Heels" chant in the last few minutes. Innovative for them-hope Roy applauds that great effort.

[gumbomoop]

You nutters are not paying enough attention to the real important game tonight, 'Cuse @ ND. Start praying.

[dukelifer]

HUGE sequence there.

Paige turns it over (he's been deferring a lot this game).

Lacey scores for and 1. 8 point NCSU lead with 1:30 left.

And then Meeks turns it over with 1:14 left.

Wow- did not think they had it in them - definitely off the bubble now. Good job Pack. Shocking loss by UNC after playing so well the game before.

[Newton_14]

Love it Love it Love it!! Go to Hell Carolina you slimy cheating scumbags. That Ol Roy hates NC State only makes this sweeter. 19-9, 9-6 = Average Team. Enjoy the extra game in the ACC Tourney Roy. You are playing your way out of the double bye.

Say what you want about Gottfried, but that was a great game plan. Lowest points ever for a unc-cheat team in the Dean Dome. They rattled the heels running clock on every single possession of the game. They were using the K stall almost the entire 2nd half. They gave up the 12-0 run to make it dicey, but, the lead never dropped below 4 if I recall.

State played really well the last 6 minutes while the cheats unraveled.

Awesome. Very enjoyable evening in the Triangle. :)

GO DUKE!

[devildeac]

Yes, I'll guess they do, will make it a game, and ...... win. If my semi-quasi-intuitive-educated guess turns out to have been truly dumb, it wouldn't be the first time. [Ask Newton_14 or CDu about me and JMM. By all rights I should have a lifetime ban......]

Pack to win.

Someone deserves a devil's lair worth of sporks for this one.

[FerryFor50]

Wow- did not think they had it in them - definitely off the bubble now. Good job Pack. Shocking loss by UNC after playing so well the game before.

What I was most shocked with was how they regained their composure after that UNC run mid-way in the first half. Lead never got below 4.

[OldPhiKap]

Someone here turned me on to @ICMeltdown on Twitter -- much worth your while.

And go Syracuse!

[Troublemaker]

Good for State. Win a couple more winnable games on their schedule, and they'll have made the NCAA tournament 4 years in a row under Gottfried.

[OldPhiKap]

What I was most shocked with was how they regained their composure after that UNC run mid-way in the first half. Lead never got below 4.

Big props to Cat Barber.

[Henderson]

Crowd to Roy: "Look in the mirror."

[kshepinthehouse]

I bet Wheat would say UNC lost because Joel James and Nate Britt didn't get enough PT.

[davekay1971]

A little let down by IC tonight. Not the kind of outrage I'd expected. They mostly seemed, well, resigned and sad. Kind of like they're just getting used to disappointment.

Bless their hearts (Type 2)

[OldPhiKap]

Crowd to Roy: "Look in the mirror."

I doubt Roy is in the daggum post-game PC spirit.

[ChillinDuke]

When's Roy's press conference up?

Better yet is it streaming live?

- Chillin

[gumbomoop]

Go 'Cuse.

[grossbus]

First time Roy has lost to the pack in the dome. Love it!

[Dukehky]

Big props to Cat Barber.

That kid has gone from disaster waiting to happen to the reason they are playing so well. His pace is just incredible. It takes Lacey off the ball more.

I hope that they are the 8 seed in UK's bracket. State has a lot of size, quick pgs and shooters. If they get hot from deep, it could be interesting. If State played UK the way they played Duke, they would win. That is obviously miles above their average ability level, but they have the tools necessary to stay competitive.

I just like to see Julius Hodge happy. They was dogs and they was hongry, so they ate.

[gofurman]

Go 'Cuse.


Love UNC losing. But ND losing helps our ACC seed more. Awesome !

[CDu]

What a great night. UNC loses, Notre Dame loses (now officially in 2nd), Wisconsin loses (not ACC but who cares).

[FerryFor50]

How about Syracuse, btw?

Absolutely nothing to play for this season and still playing hard and beating (or at least putting a scare in) ranked teams.

[westwall]

Wisc; UNC; and ND. A trifecta!

[NYBri]

What a great night. UNC loses, Notre Dame loses (now officially in 2nd), Wisconsin loses (not ACC but who cares).

This!

[SCMatt33]

What a great night. UNC loses, Notre Dame loses (now officially in 2nd), Wisconsin loses (not ACC but who cares).

Seriously. Wiscy losing helps in the NCAA seed race. ND in the ACC seed race, and GTHC!

[tbyers11]

BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Second that.

I kept waiting for the Wuffies to make the standard Dean Dome mistakes and lose another game at UNC. But they made lots of smart plays down the stretch. Also, got a little luck on the air ball Lacey 3 that fell right to Anya for a dunk. But mostly clutch plays down the stretch. Congrats Wolfpack.

[NashvilleDevil]

Wisc; UNC; and ND. A trifecta!

Now Duke needs to take care of business tomorrow night.

[Wander]

The regression of Marcus Paige is one of the strangest things to me in college basketball this year. It's not like, say Fred VanVleet, a point guard whose stats drop you can plausibly attribute to his team losing an important offensive weapon. Paige has a much better offense around him compared to last year. He's legitimately gotten worse.

It's an interesting note for the people who argue about the legitimacy of picking freshmen on preseason teams - this year, the most popular freshman choice for preseason ACC POY is vastly outperforming the most popular veteran choice.

[FerryFor50]

The regression of Marcus Paige is one of the strangest things to me in college basketball this year. It's not like, say Fred VanVleet, a point guard whose stats drop you can plausibly attribute to his team losing an important offensive weapon. Paige has a much better offense around him compared to last year. He's legitimately gotten worse.

It's an interesting note for the people who argue about the legitimacy of picking freshmen on preseason teams - this year, the most popular freshman choice for preseason ACC POY is vastly outperforming the most popular veteran choice.

Well, he's been fighting injury this season, so that's part of it.

Otherwise, who knows what the deal is...

[tbyers11]

How about Syracuse, btw?

Absolutely nothing to play for this season and still playing hard and beating (or at least putting a scare in) ranked teams.

Cooney hit 2 crazy end-of-the shot clock 3s in the last 3 minutes that were killer. That off-balance pull up 3 from the corner was tough. Agree that Syracuse still playing tough is impressive. Hopefully they get it out of their system before Saturday.

[arnie]

First time Roy has lost to the pack in the dome. Love it!

At Miami, at GaT, home to Duke. Can they lose all 3 and finish in lower half of conference?

[TKG]

The regression of Marcus Paige is one of the strangest things to me in college basketball this year. It's not like, say Fred VanVleet, a point guard whose stats drop you can plausibly attribute to his team losing an important offensive weapon. Paige has a much better offense around him compared to last year. He's legitimately gotten worse.

It's an interesting note for the people who argue about the legitimacy of picking freshmen on preseason teams - this year, the most popular freshman choice for preseason ACC POY is vastly outperforming the most popular veteran choice.


And he will still get plenty of votes for ACC POY--wonder why?

[tbyers11]

Well, he's been fighting injury this season, so that's part of it.

Otherwise, who knows what the deal is...

I don't know the intimate details of Paiges' injuries beyond the sprained ankle and plantar fasciitis that all announcers mention multiple times every game. Maybe they are really bad but his wheels don't seem too bad to me in the several games I've watched.

Also, every time I hear the injury talk I think of Seth Curry his senior year.

[Newton_14]

I bet Wheat would say UNC lost because Joel James and Nate Britt didn't get enough PT.


Joel James Star In The Making Tracker:
Vs NC State 2-24-15
min- 3
TP- 0
TR- 1
PF- 2
TO- 1

Nate Britt All American Tracker
Vs NC State 2-24-15
min- 21
TP- 6
A- 2
TR- 1
Stls- 1
TO- 1
PF- 4

[CDu]

The regression of Marcus Paige is one of the strangest things to me in college basketball this year. It's not like, say Fred VanVleet, a point guard whose stats drop you can plausibly attribute to his team losing an important offensive weapon. Paige has a much better offense around him compared to last year. He's legitimately gotten worse.

It's an interesting note for the people who argue about the legitimacy of picking freshmen on preseason teams - this year, the most popular freshman choice for preseason ACC POY is vastly outperforming the most popular veteran choice.

In fairness, Paige is playing with plantar fasciitis in one foot and a sprained ankle on the other side. That probably explains his bad year. Either that or all of last year was a fluke. But I suspect the injuries are the culprit.

[ChillinDuke]

At Miami, at GaT, home to Duke. Can they lose all 3 and finish in lower half of conference?

Obviously highly unlikely.

But I've always wanted to try pork wings.

- Chillin

[CDu]

Obviously highly unlikely.

But I've always wanted to try pork wings.

- Chillin

Unlikely they would lose 3, but 2 is very possible.

[Newton_14]

I doubt Roy is in the daggum post-game PC spirit.
No, tonight, Roy is not in the Winter Storm spirit. Get them daggum kids and their snowsleds outa my sight! If I see another daggum kid snowsledding I am going to shoot them in the butt with my frickin bb gun!

And the daggum fans were too loud tonight daggummit. I could not even communicate to my kids during timeouts or get their attention to run the play I wanted with the game going on. They need to know when to be loud and when to be quiet daggumit!!

[Newton_14]

Wisc; UNC; and ND. A trifecta!
A trifecta indeed! Helps our cause! (Thanks Jimmy B! and Silent G)

Go Duke

[dukelifer]

I don't know the intimate details of Paiges' injuries beyond the sprained ankle and plantar fasciitis that all announcers mention multiple times every game. Maybe they are really bad but his wheels don't seem too bad to me in the several games I've watched.

Also, every time I hear the injury talk I think of Seth Curry his senior year.

Some athletes are more sensitive to not being 100 percent. Whatever the reason - the loss of someone who can takeover at the end of games has hurt UNC.

[dukelifer]

A trifecta indeed! Helps our cause! (Thanks Jimmy B! and Silent G)

Go Duke

Need them to fall apart now.

[Wander]

Well, he's been fighting injury this season, so that's part of it.




In fairness, Paige is playing with plantar fasciitis in one foot and a sprained ankle on the other side. That probably explains his bad year. Either that or all of last year was a fluke. But I suspect the injuries are the culprit.


I didn't think his injury was all season long (and he was worse from the start of the season) - but if so, yes that probably explains it.

To follow up a common UNC meme, note the difference between how K used his timeouts in the Duke UNC game with how Roy uses (or doesn't use) his timeouts. A pretty big contrast.

[OldPhiKap]

Well, he's been fighting injury this season, so that's part of it.

Otherwise, who knows what the deal is...

1. Paige goes out of his way not to use that as an excuse, to his credit. But it is obviously a factor.

2. He has absolutely no help outside so defenses can key on him without worry.

3. Paige clearly is trying to carry the team. The team is talented but missing parts.

4. Roy is his coach, so there's that.


I do not like many Carolina players, but I do like Paige. Hope he has a full recovery.

[bbosbbos]

One Seth is 1000000 times better than Paige.

Paige is a good kid. Last two years he had great heart, this year he is really poor. Roy should beach him. How can such a poor player be named to the all acc team? Slow, poor body building, poor ball handling.



In fairness, Paige is playing with plantar fasciitis in one foot and a sprained ankle on the other side. That probably explains his bad year. Either that or all of last year was a fluke. But I suspect the injuries are the culprit.

[CDu]

Yeah, a big part of UNC's trouble is that they don't have enough guys you can give the ball to and say "score" and have it work. Especially with Paige struggling. They have to get hustle points (transition, offensive rebounds). They actually do this really well. But if you limit their transition and likit their offensive rebounds (easier said than done, though State did it fairly well today), their offense is not good.

[Kfanarmy]

Anyone watch? How did UNC only score 46?

[Wheat/"/"/"]

It's a broken record for this UNC team when they lose. Where's was the toughness?

When I say toughness, think of it this way...how often do we see this UNC team take the intensity to another team? Take the court with a John Wayne walking into a saloon attitude and effort?

We saw some focus and effort for about 8 minutes in the 2nd half tonight, after they had sleepwalked to getting down 16 and we're getting embarrassed at home, ...but they dug too deep a hole....they just can't seem to grasp it's a 40 minute game.

This is a team that is comfortable reacting to the play of the opposition, looking to take advantage of their overplays....not a team that is proactive and attacks the defense. Sitting back like that allows good teams to gain confidence, and confidence is a huge part of college basketball.

They once again got out hustled and played soft that first half. They didn't fight for position, took fade always that had them out of rebounding position, didn't attack the rim, and weren't mentally tough by taking bad shots and weak TO's.

Recipe for getting beat.

State's a good team that hit some big shots and played strong at the rim, they earned the win.

[ncexnyc]

A little let down by IC tonight. Not the kind of outrage I'd expected. They mostly seemed, well, resigned and sad. Kind of like they're just getting used to disappointment.

Bless their hearts (Type 2)

You didn't stick around long enough:D

They're in full cannibal mode right now and several threads have already been locked.

[richardjackson199]

State was trying to run shotclock down on every possession to control tempo and take air out of the crowd. UNC had a horrid first half.

[moonpie23]

Heels looked good...

[Olympic Fan]

Got to give it up to Gottfried and the Pack. I was a skeptic -- pointing out how badly State always plays in Chapel Hill. For once, they showed toughness and heart and didn't pee their pants at the sight of the light blue.

I agree that this doesn't quite make them an NCAA lock, but it puts them on the right side of the bubble. With a decent finish, they not only get in the dance, they don't have to take part in the play-in round in Dayton.

At least I could celebrate that one with unmixed feelings.

I know Notre Dame losing helps us, but I feel for Mike Brey. I have no love for Jim B and the Orangemen.

And same for Wisconsin falling ... it helps us, but I can't celebrate a Maryland win.

PS I was just about to write about how now NC State and Pitt are on the right side of the bubble and Miami is still alive (beat UNC Saturday and maybe we get eight in the field).

Then I checked the scores and saw that Pitt is fighting for its life at Boston College. That would be a killer.

[Newton_14]

It's a broken record for this UNC team when they lose. Where's was the toughness?

When I say toughness, think of it this way...how often do we see this UNC team take the intensity to another team? Take the court with a John Wayne walking into a saloon attitude and effort?

We saw some focus and effort for about 8 minutes in the 2nd half tonight, after they had sleepwalked to getting down 16 and we're getting embarrassed at home, ...but they dug too deep a hole....they just can't seem to grasp it's a 40 minute game.

This is a team that is comfortable reacting to the play of the opposition, looking to take advantage of their overplays....not a team that is proactive and attacks the defense. Sitting back like that allows good teams to gain confidence, and confidence is a huge part of college basketball.

They once again got out hustled and played soft that first half. They didn't fight for position, took fade always that had them out of rebounding position, didn't attack the rim, and weren't mentally tough by taking bad shots and weak TO's.

Recipe for getting beat.

State's a good team that hit some big shots and played strong at the rim, they earned the win.
Serious question here and I agree with much of what you wrote here. Do you think the pace through them off tonight? State made a very obvious attempt to slow this game down to a snail's pace. Often they ran very little offense and just held it til under 8 and went 1 on 1, and it somehow worked beautifully.

If the pace did throw them off, do you think the Heels should have tried harder to force the pace? I did not think they responded well at all to the slow down plan by State.

[OldPhiKap]

It's a broken record for this UNC team when they lose. Where's was the toughness?

When I say toughness, think of it this way...how often do we see this UNC team take the intensity to another team? Take the court with a John Wayne walking into a saloon attitude and effort?

We saw some focus and effort for about 8 minutes in the 2nd half tonight, after they had sleepwalked to getting down 16 and we're getting embarrassed at home, ...but they dug too deep a hole....they just can't seem to grasp it's a 40 minute game.

This is a team that is comfortable reacting to the play of the opposition, looking to take advantage of their overplays....not a team that is proactive and attacks the defense. Sitting back like that allows good teams to gain confidence, and confidence is a huge part of college basketball.

They once again got out hustled and played soft that first half. They didn't fight for position, took fade always that had them out of rebounding position, didn't attack the rim, and weren't mentally tough by taking bad shots and weak TO's.

Recipe for getting beat.

State's a good team that hit some big shots and played strong at the rim, they earned the win.

Fair post, and not easy I'm sure. As I said up thread, I feel bad (as I can) for Paige this year,

No outside shooting. Brutal.

[MarkD83]

Roy actually called some timeouts at appropriate times....so they lost.

[Duke95]

1. Paige goes out of his way not to use that as an excuse, to his credit. But it is obviously a factor.


Much respect to Paige for not using any excuses, but he's obviously been playing injured and his team isn't helping much.

[Newton_14]

I didn't think his injury was all season long (and he was worse from the start of the season) - but if so, yes that probably explains it.

To follow up a common UNC meme, note the difference between how K used his timeouts in the Duke UNC game with how Roy uses (or doesn't use) his timeouts. A pretty big contrast.
I want to expound upon this actually. (and the "Crazy Video" from the Duke/UNC game is hilarious, yet mostly on point). They don't give you any prizes for taking timeouts to the lockerroom so why NOT use them when losing like tonight? (or in the Duke game for that matter)

What, exactly is the rationale. He called no timeouts while State was building the 16 point lead if I recall. Then in the last 5 minutes when it was anyone's ballgame, he called I think 1 timeout. There were several times in the last 5 where I went "K would have called a TO there". I still believe if they had gone into a full bore, fullcourt trapping press the final 5 minutes, they likely could have gotten State to crack. I don't get the reasoning at all. Especially with a team that isn't dominant or loaded with veteran Seniors. It is just one of those great mysteries in life. "St Peter, the one question I have for you, is why didn't Roy Williams call timeouts when the team was in trouble?"

[gotoguy]

The turtle-Wisky game was pretty exciting

From my brief viewing of the Wolfies-UNC game it appeared the home team was channelling GA Tech, their last opponent.

[devildeac]

Obviously highly unlikely.

But I've always wanted to try pork wings.

- Chillin

Like these?

4798

[DU82]

They may lose but the Pack came in with a great game plan. They slowed the game to a snails pace. At the 11:41 mark of the 2nd half right now, and 12 times State has taken the shot clock under 5 before shooting.


So given the place they were playing, the Pack went to the four corners?

[MarkD83]

Serious question here and I agree with much of what you wrote here. Do you think the pace through them off tonight? State made a very obvious attempt to slow this game down to a snail's pace. Often they ran very little offense and just held it til under 8 and went 1 on 1, and it somehow worked beautifully.

If the pace did throw them off, do you think the Heels should have tried harder to force the pace? I did not think they responded well at all to the slow down plan by State.

I agree. UNC gets energized when they score on the break even after another teams made basket. NCSU just made it very difficult to get into any sort of transition game. The exception was when UNC went on the 12-0 run. UNC also missed a lot of shots close in when they were well defended. NCSU is deceptively strong in the front court, which is why they beat Duke.

[Troublemaker]

Anyone watch? How did UNC only score 46?

They're trying to ruin Duke's KenPom D ranking.

The poor offensive nights experienced by Wisconsin, UNC, NCSU, Syracuse and Notre Dame might put Duke's D ranking back into the 60s once all the scores are incorporated

[Newton_14]

Note to Members: Reminder that there is a thread just like this one each week started by PFRDuke to discuss all non-Duke ACC games for that week. Please remember to check those threads before tossing up a new thread on one of the games for that week.

Thanks

[OldPhiKap]

I want to expound upon this actually. (and the "Crazy Video" from the Duke/UNC game is hilarious, yet mostly on point). They don't give you any prizes for taking timeouts to the lockerroom so why NOT use them when losing like tonight? (or in the Duke game for that matter)

What, exactly is the rationale. He called no timeouts while State was building the 16 point lead if I recall. Then in the last 5 minutes when it was anyone's ballgame, he called I think 1 timeout. There were several times in the last 5 where I went "K would have called a TO there". I still believe if they had gone into a full bore, fullcourt trapping press the final 5 minutes, they likely could have gotten State to crack. I don't get the reasoning at all. Especially with a team that isn't dominant or loaded with veteran Seniors. It is just one of those great mysteries in life. "St Peter, the one question I have for you, is why didn't Roy Williams call timeouts when the team was in trouble?"

This times ten. I don't get it.

Best IC comment a few games ago -- "Roy must take his unused timeouts to McDonalds to redeem them for hamburgers after the game"

For the life of me I don't understand his thinking.

[MarkD83]

A bit off topic, but I don't want to jinx anything. Is Jah looking better? Any word about his ankle after today's practice? I did not want to add this to the "vigil" thread for fear that bringing that thread to the first page would be a bad omen.

[newclasspack]

i would like to thank you guy for the positive vibes you were all sending out to us tonight.. it means a lot... sorry i'm a bit choked up... you Duke guys are all beautiful people and.. and i''m sorry i'm just so happy right now

[Wander]

I want to expound upon this actually. (and the "Crazy Video" from the Duke/UNC game is hilarious, yet mostly on point). They don't give you any prizes for taking timeouts to the lockerroom so why NOT use them when losing like tonight? (or in the Duke game for that matter)

What, exactly is the rationale. He called no timeouts while State was building the 16 point lead if I recall. Then in the last 5 minutes when it was anyone's ballgame, he called I think 1 timeout. There were several times in the last 5 where I went "K would have called a TO there". I still believe if they had gone into a full bore, fullcourt trapping press the final 5 minutes, they likely could have gotten State to crack. I don't get the reasoning at all. Especially with a team that isn't dominant or loaded with veteran Seniors. It is just one of those great mysteries in life. "St Peter, the one question I have for you, is why didn't Roy Williams call timeouts when the team was in trouble?"

Roy did actually call two timeouts in the 2nd half, not one, but you're correct that he didn't use any when State built up its lead. I appreciate the idea that some guys in both football in basketball overcoach by calling timeouts to prevent every dinky 5 yard delay of game penalty or to draw up every single play at the end of the game, but Roy is so far on the other extreme of the spectrum, it's just bizarre.

[OldPhiKap]

i would like to thank you guy for the positive vibes you were all sending out to us tonight.. it means a lot... sorry i'm a bit choked up... you Duke guys are all beautiful people and.. and i''m sorry i'm just so happy right now

Congrats on a big win which helps your tourney bona fides. Keep winning, just not at our expense!

[Troublemaker]

i would like to thank you guy for the positive vibes you were all sending out to us tonight.. it means a lot... sorry i'm a bit choked up... you Duke guys are all beautiful people and.. and i''m sorry i'm just so happy right now

We love you, too!!! Great win tonight by your boys!

[Tom B.]

First time Roy has lost to the pack in the dome. Love it!




And the fewest points Carolina has ever scored in a game in the Dean Dome.

[Newton_14]

A bit off topic, but I don't want to jinx anything. Is Jah looking better? Any word about his ankle after today's practice? I did not want to add this to the "vigil" thread for fear that bringing that thread to the first page would be a bad omen.
Per a WRAL article I read today the ankle is progressing nicely! He was able to practice today though no contact allowed and did well. The swelling has gone down a lot and there was no structural damage. They think he plays tomorrow night, though possible limited minutes depending on how the ankle responds and how the game goes.

Its the absolute best outcome we could have hoped for.

[OldPhiKap]

Roy did actually call two timeouts in the 2nd half, not one, but you're correct that he didn't use any when State built up its lead. I appreciate the idea that some guys in both football in basketball overcoach by calling timeouts to prevent every dinky 5 yard delay of game penalty or to draw up every single play at the end of the game, but Roy is so far on the other extreme of the spectrum, it's just bizarre.

Roy is the dreaded Anti-Gillen.

[Wander]

No outside shooting. Brutal.

I think this is by far UNC's biggest weakness this year - not effort. Honestly, jump shooting has been a little bit of a problem for them ever since the Hansbrough years, but it's never been as extreme as it is right now, and they just don't have the sheer talent to overcome it like they did in say 2012. They desperately need a guy like Andre Dawkins on the team.

[Chillduck]

Roy called a couple of time outs in the last 2:30 after a made basket. The other timeout was taken by Kennedy Meeks to avoid a held ball.

[BigWayne]

At Miami, at GaT, home to Duke. Can they lose all 3 and finish in lower half of conference?

I think they are staring at a very possible 10-8 record by losing 2 out of 3 and ending up as low as #7 or 8 seed in the ACCT. If Duke can win out and hold onto the #2 slot, we may get a 3rd game with UNC in the quarterfinals.

[fan345678]

I just saw the score, 58-46. Great tribute to Coach Smith that they didn't use shot clocks.

[BigWayne]

When's Roy's press conference up?

Better yet is it streaming live?

- Chillin

Online here. (http://northcarolina.scout.com/story/1521001-unc-ncsu-roy-williams-postgame?s=78)

Praises crowd. Throws himself and the team, mostly the team, under the bus.

"Never had a play where our big guy shoots a three-point shot unless he could really shoot threes ... Kennedy just didn't know what to do so he shot it."

"Don't pump fake 17 times and try to take the softest shot in the history of basketball. "

"It looked like a team in those last 3-4 minutes that had never had a practice."

[Kedsy]

They desperately need a guy like Andre Dawkins on the team.

Ah, but who doesn't?

[Bob Green]

I have consistently criticized Coach Williams for playing too many players too many minutes. He jerks players on and off the court like a yoyo. In the lost to State last night, with not a single player in foul trouble, Coach Williams played five guys off the bench for a total of 41 minutes. Those 41 minutes resulted in four points, four rebounds, one assist, zero steals, zero blocks and five turnovers. Hey, Coach Williams, those guys don't start for a reason so maybe you should leave their butts on the bench.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Serious question here and I agree with much of what you wrote here. Do you think the pace through them off tonight? State made a very obvious attempt to slow this game down to a snail's pace. Often they ran very little offense and just held it til under 8 and went 1 on 1, and it somehow worked beautifully.

If the pace did throw them off, do you think the Heels should have tried harder to force the pace? I did not think they responded well at all to the slow down plan by State.

Yes, they should have tried harder...not only with the pace but with their effort every play.

These kids think they are playing hard when they are not. Just one example, I saw Brice Johnson get beat on one play, well off the ball on defense, standing straight up watching the ball on the outside while his man was on the baseline. He wasn't in good defensive position, he wasn't crouched with his arms extended, his head wasn't on a "swivel" looking for screens ready to step in quickly and deny space. He wasn't proactive and ready to defend...he just wasn't "ready", he was coasting...all of a sudden the ball gets to his man, he's a step slow and he gets beat....that's playing soft.

I saw that sort of play with Meeks and Tokoto too. Several times.

It was a poor shooting night too for UNC, they missed a lot of chippies at the rim first half and seemed to almost pout. That's playing soft as well. These shooting nights happen, but they have to be tougher and play through them.

[jv001]

I have consistently criticized Coach Williams for playing too many players too many minutes. He jerks players on and off the court like a yoyo. In the lost to State last night, with not a single player in foul trouble, Coach Williams played five guys off the bench for a total of 41 minutes. Those 41 minutes resulted in four points, four rebounds, one assist, zero steals, zero blocks and five turnovers. Hey, Coach Williams, those guys don't start for a reason so maybe you should leave their butts on the bench.

Bob, here's the break down on minutes and points for the cheaters.
Hicks= 18 mins= 2pts.
Britt= 9 minutes= 2 pts.
James- 6 minutes=0
Berry= 6 minutes= 0
Simmons= 2 minutes= 0

It was basically a 7 man rotation with Berry and James getting just a few minutes(6). Looks like old roy has not been able to coach up these guys. When I tuned the game on, State had a 16 point lead Then unc went on a run and cut the lead to 4 points. At this point, I turned the game off because it was evident that I was the jinx for State. This morning I go to ESPN to check out the result and whoopeeeeee, State prevailed. Then I look at other scores and saw that ND lost and Wisconsin lost as well. However the Wisky loss was tempered because it was a Terp win. All in all a great night for the Blue Devil fan. Now let's get a victory over VT and get back home out to the snow that's coming in. GoDuke!

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

I get that State hasn't won much lately so they were overly excited. But in my opinion this site took it way too far. Take a look and see if you agree. On one hand they were talking about State players being classy, then post garbage like the first paragraph.

http://www.statefansnation.com/2015/02/state-wins-chapel-hill-dean-smiths-pact-devil-expired/

Its a shame they had to ruin a great win with this. Luckily its not an official site or anything its just some blog but still, I would be irate if a Duke site did this. Am I over reacting?

[kshepinthehouse]

Bob, here's the break down on minutes and points for the cheaters.
Hicks= 18 mins= 2pts.
Britt= 9 minutes= 2 pts.
James- 6 minutes=0
Berry= 6 minutes= 0
Simmons= 2 minutes= 0

It was basically a 7 man rotation with Berry and James getting just a few minutes(6). Looks like old roy has not been able to coach up these guys. When I tuned the game on, State had a 16 point lead Then unc went on a run and cut the lead to 4 points. At this point, I turned the game off because it was evident that I was the jinx for State. This morning I go to ESPN to check out the result and whoopeeeeee, State prevailed. Then I look at other scores and saw that ND lost and Wisconsin lost as well. However the Wisky loss was tempered because it was a Terp win. All in all a great night for the Blue Devil fan. Now let's get a victory over VT and get back home out to the snow that's coming in. GoDuke!

But you don't understand, James and Britt are really good players.

[jv001]

I get that State hasn't won much lately so they were overly excited. But in my opinion this site took it way too far. Take a look and see if you agree. On one hand they were talking about State players being classy, then post garbage like the first paragraph.

http://www.statefansnation.com/2015/02/state-wins-chapel-hill-dean-smiths-pact-devil-expired/

Its a shame they had to ruin a great win with this. Luckily its not an official site or anything its just some blog but still, I would be irate if a Duke site did this. Am I over reacting?

Thanks for the link, but was told content not found. What did the State players do or say? GoDuke!

[bedeviled]

I have consistently criticized Coach Williams for playing too many players too many minutesIt doesn't make sense to me, either, for the following reason: If losses are consistently attributable to the players' effort, Roy has the depth and quality of roster that would allow him to make someone sit long enough to let lessons sink in. Or, is it the going explanation that all of the players are somehow lacking the will to win?

Not to rehash an old subject (although, as Wheat wrote, the blame for UNC's woes is a broken record), but I do think effort and energy are part of the coach's responsibility.....and Roy agreed with this concept in their loss to Butler, when the toughness was first questioned. IDK, maybe he figures he has done all he can and it's up to the players now?

Presuming it is the basic elemental nature of these players to lack effort and aggression, perhaps Roy should consider an offense that isn't as dependent on offensive rebounds and breakaways/outlets. :rolleyes:
Marcus Paige PROBABLY should have gotten more than 1 FGA and 0 FTA in the first half. Barber was quick on defense, but I noticed Paige running around trying to get open without any help. Many times this year, they look clueless in half-court offense.

edit: I realize the roster depth this game didn't look very impressive, but I stand by my points

[MChambers]

My wife forbid me to watch any of the game with the Pack up 8 and about a minute to go. I love that woman:o.
On behalf of almost everyone on this forum, let me say how wonderfully wise your wife is.

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

Thanks for the link, but was told content not found. What did the State players do or say? GoDuke!

They must have taken down the content after negative backlash, but it wasnt't players at all it was an article by statefansnation. It started by the outrageous and frankly disrespectful claim that Dean Smith's Pact with the Devil wore out after he died. Meaning that UNC has now lost 3 of their last four games since Dean died. It was a lot more disrespectful than I care to type here and it was an awful way to rub salt in UNC's wounds.

[PackMan97]

I get that State hasn't won much lately so they were overly excited. But in my opinion this site took it way too far. Take a look and see if you agree. On one hand they were talking about State players being classy, then post garbage like the first paragraph.

http://www.statefansnation.com/2015/02/state-wins-chapel-hill-dean-smiths-pact-devil-expired/

Its a shame they had to ruin a great win with this. Luckily its not an official site or anything its just some blog but still, I would be irate if a Duke site did this. Am I over reacting?

An article about the article.

http://www.statefansnation.com/2015/02/state-wins-chapel-hill-focus-student-athletes/

[timmy c]

I have consistently criticized Coach Williams for playing too many players too many minutes. He jerks players on and off the court like a yoyo. In the lost to State last night, with not a single player in foul trouble, Coach Williams played five guys off the bench for a total of 41 minutes. Those 41 minutes resulted in four points, four rebounds, one assist, zero steals, zero blocks and five turnovers. Hey, Coach Williams, those guys don't start for a reason so maybe you should leave their butts on the bench.

I think hindsight is 20/20 concerning bench play. The reality was that a couple of UNC starters were totally ineffective. Tokoto and Johnson went 2-12 from the field and combining for 7 pts in 59 minutes of play. (These guys managed to shoot 14-25 for 33 points against Duke.) When you only score 18 points in a half, you have to find a different combination to increase scoring. I think you are generally right to be critical of UNC concerning their sometimes awkward rotations, however, last night I would have been critical of Williams for not trying his bench considering how lethargic some of the starters looked.

[OldPhiKap]

They must have taken down the content after negative backlash, but it wasnt't players at all it was an article by statefansnation. It started by the outrageous and frankly disrespectful claim that Dean Smith's Pact with the Devil wore out after he died. Meaning that UNC has now lost 3 of their last four games since Dean died. It was a lot more disrespectful than I care to type here and it was an awful way to rub salt in UNC's wounds.

Poor taste (although humor sometimes is). UNC has been on a skid for awhile, really since Pinson got hurt. I am sure that has more to do with it than Dean's passing.

IC is just savaging Roy. Berate the fans and urge them to invest, then go out and score the fewest points ever in the Dean Dome. No in-game adjustments from Roy. No use of time outs when the Pack were on a roll early. Etc. etc. etc.


At this point, is Roy going to keep coaching just because he is stubborn? Surely not for the enjoyment.

I don't see Roy getting forced out, absent the NCAA just laying the wood to him directly. But I could see him deciding it's time to go play golf and watch the sunrises over the beach.

[JasonEvans]

A picture really is worth a thousand words...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B-qmCznXEAAB1tT.jpg

-Jason "Carolina has real issues with late-game execution... and that has to fall on Roy and Paige" Evans

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

An article about the article.

http://www.statefansnation.com/2015/02/state-wins-chapel-hill-focus-student-athletes/

I guess I just didn't get it, nor do I get the apology if that is what that article is supposed to be. I mean sure it was meant in jest, and to the guy who wrote it I am sure he was very amused with himself. But seriously, have some common sense and recognize how this will come off to almost everyone else. Even the people who follow that site are confused by the article and now the explanation. But, I guess that's what happens when sports rivalries become more important than people and their feelings. I know UNC fans and sites have done some mean spirited things as well, but at some point we gotta look at ourselves and say, "Is it really that serious" Of course in this case given the authors explanation maybe I am the one taking this too serious.

[lotusland]

An article about the article.

http://www.statefansnation.com/2015/02/state-wins-chapel-hill-focus-student-athletes/

Well I didn't read the original article but, having read the article about the article I think it nothing to get your outrage on about. I tend to like irreverent humor and I think folks should recognize something like that as a joke and not get their undies in a bunch.

[lotusland]

Poor taste (although humor sometimes is). UNC has been on a skid for awhile, really since Pinson got hurt. I am sure that has more to do with it than Dean's passing.

IC is just savaging Roy. Berate the fans and urge them to invest, then go out and score the fewest points ever in the Dean Dome. No in-game adjustments from Roy. No use of time outs when the Pack were on a roll early. Etc. etc. etc.


At this point, is Roy going to keep coaching just because he is stubborn? Surely not for the enjoyment.

I don't see Roy getting forced out, absent the NCAA just laying the wood to him directly. But I could see him deciding it's time to go play golf and watch the sunrises over the beach.

I know you don't mean that as criticism but it's criticism ...

[jv001]

They must have taken down the content after negative backlash, but it wasnt't players at all it was an article by statefansnation. It started by the outrageous and frankly disrespectful claim that Dean Smith's Pact with the Devil wore out after he died. Meaning that UNC has now lost 3 of their last four games since Dean died. It was a lot more disrespectful than I care to type here and it was an awful way to rub salt in UNC's wounds.

Thanks, AFD. Timing is everything and the article was not well timed and it took away from State's big win. GoDuke!

[FerryFor50]

Thanks, AFD. Timing is everything and the article was not well timed and it took away from State's big win. GoDuke!

It's really not shocking, considering the fanbase. Many definitely have an inferiority complex to UNC. This wasn't the only example.

They also burned a UNC jersey (why?):

4799

Then there was the guy in the golden thong (again... WHY?):

4800

A lot of pent up angst about losing to UNC in general, much less at the Dean Dome. It all came spilling out last night.

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/scenes-from-nc-state-bell-tower-celebration/14469579/

UNC fans say that was NCSU's NCAA championship. They're right - NCSU could go winless the rest of the season and it would be considered a success since they beat Duke and UNC in the same year.

[Lar77]

Nobody seems to have started a thread to comment on this.

I was shocked at how loud the DD was. And for the team to put up as poor a response to this newfound support.

Pack won because they have figured out that to beat Carolina this year, you have to keep them off the offensive boards. Strong effort by the Wolfies.

On a side note, his team is at best listless, and losing an important game, and Roy still had TOs in his pocket.

[Seattle Hoo]

I've been struggling for a couple of years to put into words what I see when I watch Carolina play, but there's just something missing, something intangible that is missing from Carolina. They still have their allotted complement of Burger Boys; they still have a Hall of Fame coach with a few national championships; they still can play some excellent basketball; but they just lack something intangible. Heart? Identity? Spirit? I've not watched them in the last three years and felt like I was watching a well-coached team. At the same time, when I look at their players, they just seem sort of robotic.

As far as I am concerned, the book is out on Carolina. How to beat them is no mystery: don't let them run, keep them off the offensive boards, and execute a patient offense. They won't be able to execute for more than three quarters of a possession or a game. It's why I'm never worried when Virginia plays UNC. The last couple of years, I've viewed them as an automatic win, because we are very good at denying transition, controlling the boards, and playing each possession with discipline to the end.

That said, there's still a great chance they beat you guys at Chapel Hill :cool:

[killerleft]

I've been struggling for a couple of years to put into words what I see when I watch Carolina play, but there's just something missing, something intangible that is missing from Carolina. They still have their allotted complement of Burger Boys; they still have a Hall of Fame coach with a few national championships; they still can play some excellent basketball; but they just lack something intangible. Heart? Identity? Spirit? I've not watched them in the last three years and felt like I was watching a well-coached team. At the same time, when I look at their players, they just seem sort of robotic.

As far as I am concerned, the book is out on Carolina. How to beat them is no mystery: don't let them run, keep them off the offensive boards, and execute a patient offense. They won't be able to execute for more than three quarters of a possession or a game. It's why I'm never worried when Virginia plays UNC. The last couple of years, I've viewed them as an automatic win, because we are very good at denying transition, controlling the boards, and playing each possession with discipline to the end.

That said, there's still a great chance they beat you guys at Chapel Hill :cool:

I like our chances in 'Hooville even better, wait... oh, we played there already?;)

[OldPhiKap]

Nobody seems to have started a thread to comment on this.

I was shocked at how loud the DD was. And for the team to put up as poor a response to this newfound support.

Pack won because they have figured out that to beat Carolina this year, you have to keep them off the offensive boards. Strong effort by the Wolfies.

On a side note, his team is at best listless, and losing an important game, and Roy still had TOs in his pocket.

Check the ACC this week thread, there are several pages. Come join the discussion!

[Seattle Hoo]

I like our chances in 'Hooville even better, wait... oh, we played there already?;)

All I have to say to that is: STANDINGS! :p

[Henderson]

I like our chances in 'Hooville even better, wait... oh, we played there already?;)


All I have to say to that is: STANDINGS! :p

In a fan smack-off, which taunt trumps? "Scoreboard" or "Standings"? "Banners" is pretty tough to beat, but how does the hierarchy work exactly?

[flyingdutchdevil]

In a fan smack-off, which taunt trumps? "Scoreboard" or "Standings"? "Banners" is pretty tough to beat, but how does the hierarchy work exactly?

Gimme standings any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

[roywhite]

In a fan smack-off, which taunt trumps? "Scoreboard" or "Standings"? "Banners" is pretty tough to beat, but how does the hierarchy work exactly?

Ha...Yeah, it might go:

"Scoreboard"

"Standings"

"Schedule?"

"Sorry, Standings!"

"Banners!"

"Recent?"

"See-ya"

[Olympic Fan]

Gimme standings any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Give me "banners" any day of the week and THREE times on Sunday. And banners in order:

1. National Championship
2. Regional championship (which means a trip to the Final Four)
3. ACC championship (decided by the tournament)
4. ACC Regular Season championship.

Standings are temporary things ... they can chance in a heartbeat (ask UNC, which has gone from second to fifth in a few weeks). A win or a loss is forever (unless you are at UNC cheat, where a lot of wins and a lot of banners will be coming down).

Right now, I'd rather have the head-to-head win at Virginia than be ahead in the standings.

Now, if they finish up as the ACC regular season champs, I'll tip my hat -- that's bigger than our head-to-head win.

Then I'll try to beat their butts in Greensboro!

[Seattle Hoo]

I would have to say banners. Hey, a Hoo is not going to be able to win a woof-off with Dukies, but our hoops team still goes to Cameron every other year, so why be deterred?:cool:

[Duvall]

In a fan smack-off, which taunt trumps? "Scoreboard" or "Standings"? "Banners" is pretty tough to beat, but how does the hierarchy work exactly?

Game results are forever, championships are forever, mid-season standings can change at any time.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Give me "banners" any day of the week and THREE times on Sunday. And banners in order:

1. National Championship
2. Regional championship (which means a trip to the Final Four)
3. ACC championship (decided by the tournament)
4. ACC Regular Season championship.

Standings are temporary things ... they can chance in a heartbeat (ask UNC, which has gone from second to fifth in a few weeks). A win or a loss is forever (unless you are at UNC cheat, where a lot of wins and a lot of banners will be coming down).

Right now, I'd rather have the head-to-head win at Virginia than be ahead in the standings.

Now, if they finish up as the ACC regular season champs, I'll tip my hat -- that's bigger than our head-to-head win.

Then I'll try to beat their butts in Greensboro!

Well, obviously. But Henderson asked about "standings" vs "scoreboard". So I answered that question.

[OldPhiKap]

Come March, the only one which matters is "still playing"

[W&LHoo]

Give me "banners" any day of the week and THREE times on Sunday. And banners in order:

1. National Championship
2. Regional championship (which means a trip to the Final Four)
3. ACC championship (decided by the tournament)
4. ACC Regular Season championship.

Standings are temporary things ... they can chance in a heartbeat (ask UNC, which has gone from second to fifth in a few weeks). A win or a loss is forever (unless you are at UNC cheat, where a lot of wins and a lot of banners will be coming down).



I'm honestly on the fence about whether I'd rather win the ACCT and lose in the elite 8 than lose in the final four and the ACCT. A final four is amazing, no question, but I think your giant pile of ACCT wins may have made you devalue them.

[NSDukeFan]

I'm honestly on the fence about whether I'd rather win the ACCT and lose in the elite 8 than lose in the final four and the ACCT. A final four is amazing, no question, but I think your giant pile of ACCT wins may have made you devalue them.

ACCT championships are amazing, but I would take Regional Championships (Final Fours) over them. Those are even more awesome.

[Dev11]

ACCT championships are amazing, but I would take Regional Championships (Final Fours) over them. Those are even more awesome.

Once upon a time, conference championships mattered more, because they meant getting into the tournament. I think today, Final Fours have longer staying power than conference championships.

[Henderson]

ACCT championships are amazing, but I would take Regional Championships (Final Fours) over them. Those are even more awesome.

I'll gladly second that. There is something super extra about playing in that grand last weekend rather than sitting around, too stunned at having lost to care much, hoping some evil empire doesn't win it all.

[W&LHoo]

I'll gladly second that. There is something super extra about playing in that grand last weekend rather than sitting around, too stunned at having lost to care much, hoping some evil empire doesn't win it all.

I guess I'll have to take you guys' word for it since I was too young to appreciate UVA's last final four appearance (though I do have the framed sports illustrated cover on my wall). That said, no reason the Hoos can't have both this year.

Here's to the ACC runners up, Duke, meeting the ACC champs, UVA, in the national final.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Hicks= 18 mins= 2pts.
Britt= 9 minutes= 2 pts.
James- 6 minutes=0
Berry= 6 minutes= 0
Simmons= 2 minutes= 0

It was basically a 7 man rotation with Berry and James getting just a few minutes(6). Looks like old roy has not been able to coach up these guys.

Berry is a freshman that had a terrible game, both ends of the floor. Hicks has been playing well, just not in this one. James didn't get much time because UNC got behind big and Roy had to go with offense to try and get back in it.

Britt played OK in his limited minutes, but State has big shooters that were able to shoot over him...bad matchup game for Britt.

[FerryFor50]

Really heartwarming angle to the NCSU win.

http://www.wncn.com/story/28196921/nc-states-abu-fulfills-wedding-promise-to-deah-barakat

[devildeac]

Even though they played in chappaheeya, did NCSU fans storm the court at the PNC?:rolleyes:

[devildeac]

I know you don't mean that as criticism but it's criticism ...

I see what you did there. Well played.

[FerryFor50]

Even though they played in chappaheeya, did NCSU fans storm the court at the PNC?:rolleyes:

No, they stormed the Bell Tower.

[devildeac]

Game results are forever, championships are forever, mid-season standings can change at any time.

Or, in c*rolina's case: championships *

[Duke95]

Or, in c*rolina's case: championships *

Maybe Lance Armstrong can be the guest speaker at UNC's pity party when their championships* are taken away.

[OldPhiKap]

Maybe Lance Armstrong can be the guest speaker at UNC's pity party when their championships* are taken away.

"We'll always have the Helms"

[Duvall]

The regression of Marcus Paige is one of the strangest things to me in college basketball this year. It's not like, say Fred VanVleet, a point guard whose stats drop you can plausibly attribute to his team losing an important offensive weapon. Paige has a much better offense around him compared to last year. He's legitimately gotten worse.

It's an interesting note for the people who argue about the legitimacy of picking freshmen on preseason teams - this year, the most popular freshman choice for preseason ACC POY is vastly outperforming the most popular veteran choice.

Another factor - Paige is a streaky player that was never as good as the media wanted him to be, who assumed that his performances while "on" were the norm, and tried to explain away his "off" performances. In reality, he's always been somewhere in between.

[vick]

Another factor - Paige is a streaky player that was never as good as the media wanted him to be, who assumed that his performances while "on" were the norm, and tried to explain away his "off" performances. In reality, he's always been somewhere in between.

I think it's both, but probably more this one. His performance has dropped off somewhat--mainly he isn't nearly as effective on two point shots as he was last year--but the idea that Paige was an ACC POY candidate (a thought bandied around last year) or potential 1st team All-American was always based on extrapolating his late-game performance in a few games last year. In reality that was obviously not sustainable, regardless of whether he is slowed down by injury or not.

[wilson]

Another factor - Paige is a streaky player that was never as good as the media wanted him to be, who assumed that his performances while "on" were the norm, and tried to explain away his "off" performances. In reality, he's always been somewhere in between.I agree. I mean, he's no Harrison Barnes or anything.
Wait, bad example...

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

I'll gladly second that. There is something super extra about playing in that grand last weekend rather than sitting around, too stunned at having lost to care much, hoping some evil empire doesn't win it all.

I think this sentence perfectly captures the feelings of the tournament. First you hope your team wins, and stays around long enough for you to cheer into April. Then once they lose abruptly which will be the case almost every year, you sit there shocked and disappointed, too upset to even watch any other game that day. Especially, since we are Duke fans, us losing in the tourney is pretty much national news, and if we lose in the first weekend its going to be the running joke everywhere even late night tv. So if you are like me, you are too disgusted to even go on DBR, or ESPN, or any sports page. Then you don't want to watch TV in fear of having to hear about it. Finally the weekend passes and you go to work and get made fun of by everybody who just started watching like a week ago and didn't even know half the teams left in their bracket had basketball teams. Eventually you come to terms with it and peek at the TV and pray UNC, Kentucky, and UConn don't win it all. Then you look at the final four and can't even watch because you are disgusted by who is left. Its a vicious month and I lovingly hate it.

[Troublemaker]

I absolutely, totally disagree (unless you are reverse weaufing).

I've seen this scenario dozens of times -- where an inferior team takes the superior team to the wire on the road, then expects to win in the home rematch.

It rarely happens.

Pretty good call so far, Oly Fan.




The upset happens much more often after the superior team crushes the weaker team at home, then goes on the road for the rematch.

UNC at GaTech, hopefully

[4Gen]

Off topic, but ECU up nine over UCONN at half. ESPNU

[-jk]

UVa is first to 50. That usually does it in their games. Well, that and Wake has 21 with 12 to go.

-jk

[Seattle Hoo]

UVa is first to 50. That usually does it in their games. Well, that and Wake has 21 with 12 to go.

-jk

Man, this game is boring.

[OldPhiKap]

Miami stays relevant.

[vick]

Miami stays relevant.

I (like most of us I'm sure) wasn't watching, but Xavier Rathan-Mayes (http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/playbyplay?gameId=400588003) scored 30 points in the last 4:39 of the game? Um, OK, I guess.

[cato]

I (like most of us I'm sure) wasn't watching, but Xavier Rathan-Mayes (http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/playbyplay?gameId=400588003) scored 30 points in the last 4:39 of the game? Um, OK, I guess.

Oh my. I don't recall anything like that. I remember JJ scoring a bunch of points late against NC State to grab the ACC Championship his freshman year, and think his final total was 30, but in less than 5 minutes?

Wow.

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

In the FSU-Miami recap, apparently Coach Laranega is sending Angel Rodriquez to his personal shrink, which helped him regain his confidence and shooting touch.

Interesting.

[Seattle Hoo]

In the FSU-Miami recap, apparently Coach Laranega is sending Angel Rodriquez to his personal shrink, which helped him regain his confidence and shooting touch.

Interesting.

After this game, he'll probably need an exorcist.

[Ichabod Drain]

After this game, he'll probably need an exorcist.

Why? He scored 25 points on 14 shots.

Unless your talking about what Rathan-Mayes did in the last five minutes. But Miami still won.

[Seattle Hoo]

Why? He scored 25 points on 14 shots.

Unless your talking about what Rathan-Mayes did in the last five minutes. But Miami still won.

Yep. Thirty points in 4 minutes is all anybody is going to remember about that game.

[gus]

Oh my. I don't recall anything like that. I remember JJ scoring a bunch of points late against NC State to grab the ACC Championship his freshman year, and think his final total was 30, but in less than 5 minutes?

Wow.

Reading the play-by-play on espn... wow. He got fouled on two separate three point attempts?

I assume his last FT miss was intentional. holy cow, what an amazing 5 minutes that must have been to watch.

[Bob Green]

Snowmageddon has hit Hampton Roads so I've got time on my hands and a desire to talk some basketball!




Saturday

[86]Clemson hosts [81]Georgia Tech (12:00, ESPN3)
[153]Boston College hosts [42]NC State (12:00, ESPN3)
[100]Florida State hosts [19]Louisville (12:00, ESPN)
[56]Miami hosts [15]UNC (2:00, CBS)
[2]Virginia hosts [182]Virginia Tech (4:00, ESPN3)
[8]Duke hosts [57]Syracuse (7:00, ESPN)



Now that we have survived the trip to Blacksburg, I'm excited for Saturday. Spring Football game at 10 am followed by several key match-ups in hoops. For starters, Duke has to take care of business by beating Syracuse. I enjoy discussing the other ACC games, offering up opinions on who should win and lose, and the impact those results will have on ACCT seeding and/or NCAAT berths, etc...but first things first...Duke must keep winning.

The first match-up that jumps out and grabs my attention is Carolina at Miami. The 'Canes need the win in order to stay relevant in the NCAAT discussion. Carolina is reeling having lost five of their last seven games. A Miami victory could knock the Tar Heels out of the Top 25 and send Carolina's NCAAT seeding tumbling down toward a number such as 8 or 9. Can Miami take care of business?

Louisville at Florida State is another interesting game. The Cardinals are struggling having lost three of their last six games with close wins in their last two games against Georgia Tech (52-51) and Miami (55-53). Louisville is not a good offensive team and with Chris Jones kicked off the team a case can be made they are not a good team period. A loss to Florida State is a real possibility. Louisville's NCAAT seed could be headed south alongside Carolina.

N.C. State at Boston College is critical for the inconsistent Wolfpack. Can they avoid a letdown after the big win in Chapel Hill? Their NCAAT bid could be in jeopardy with a bad loss or two down the stretch. The Wolfpack appear to be on the right side of the bubble as long as they don't screw up like they did after beating Duke earlier in the season. State followed up the win over Duke by losing four of their next five games. State needs to win two of their last three games to firm up a bid.

Finally, Virginia hosts Virginia Tech. The Hokies are tough in Blacksburg as we saw last night, but this game is in Charlottesville and the Cavaliers are playing tough ball even with Justin Anderson and London Perrantes injured. My expectation is it will be the CHokies who get off the bus at John Paul Jones Arena. Virginia wins easily.

Thoughts?

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

Snowmageddon has hit Hampton Roads so I've got time on my hands and a desire to talk some basketball!



Now that we have survived the trip to Blacksburg, I'm excited for Saturday. Spring Football game at 10 am followed by several key match-ups in hoops. For starters, Duke has to take care of business by beating Syracuse. I enjoy discussing the other ACC games, offering up opinions on who should win and lose, and the impact those results will have on ACCT seeding and/or NCAAT berths, etc...but first things first...Duke must keep winning.

The first match-up that jumps out and grabs my attention is Carolina at Miami. The 'Canes need the win in order to stay relevant in the NCAAT discussion. Carolina is reeling having lost five of their last seven games. A Miami victory could knock the Tar Heels out of the Top 25 and send Carolina's NCAAT seeding tumbling down toward a number such as 8 or 9. Can Miami take care of business?

Louisville at Florida State is another interesting game. The Cardinals are struggling having lost three of their last six games with close wins in their last two games against Georgia Tech (52-51) and Miami (55-53). Louisville is not a good offensive team and with Chris Jones kicked off the team a case can be made they are not a good team period. A loss to Florida State is a real possibility. Louisville's NCAAT seed could be headed south alongside Carolina.

N.C. State at Boston College is critical for the inconsistent Wolfpack. Can they avoid a letdown after the big win in Chapel Hill? Their NCAAT bid could be in jeopardy with a bad loss or two down the stretch. The Wolfpack appear to be on the right side of the bubble as long as they don't screw up like they did after beating Duke earlier in the season. State followed up the win over Duke by losing four of their next five games. State needs to win two of their last three games to firm up a bid.

Finally, Virginia hosts Virginia Tech. The Hokies are tough in Blacksburg as we saw last night, but this game is in Charlottesville and the Cavaliers are playing tough ball even with Justin Anderson and London Perrantes injured. My expectation is it will be the CHokies who get off the bus at John Paul Jones Arena. Virginia wins easily.

Thoughts?

I think I can make it down to coral gables for the UM vs UNC game and still make it home in time for the Duke game.

[Ichabod Drain]

Yep. Thirty points in 4 minutes is all anybody is going to remember about that game.

In the long term I doubt many people remember anything about that game.

[OldPhiKap]

Saturday line (home team in caps):

State by 5 over BC
CLEMSON by 4 over Tech
DUKE by 13 over Syracuse
'Ville by 4 over FSU
Carolina by 1 over MIAMI

Carolina may have a dog fight on its hands. That may be the game of the day.

[Newton_14]

Saturday line (home team in caps):

State by 5 over BC
CLEMSON by 4 over Tech
DUKE by 13 over Syracuse
'Ville by 4 over FSU
Carolina by 1 over MIAMI

Carolina may have a dog fight on its hands. That may be the game of the day.

I just hope unc-cheat gets the same hot Miami team we got in Cameron, and the same Angel Rodgiguez we got in Cameron. If he is on and playing at a high level, they have no one that can guard him. Miami also has good 3 point shooters and like us, unc-cheat does not guard the line very well. Heck they are likely worse than us at defending the 3 point line.

If Angel is playing at a high level, and the Miami 3 point shooters have a solid day behind the line, I like Miami's chances to get this done. Truth be told, Miami probably has just as good talent as unc-cheat has and Miami has far better coaching in terms of both motivation and X and O's. I would take Larranaga over Ol Roy all day everyday to coach my team.

[OldPhiKap]

I just hope unc-cheat gets the same hot Miami team we got in Cameron, and the same Angel Rodgiguez we got in Cameron. If he is on and playing at a high level, they have no one that can guard him. Miami also has good 3 point shooters and like us, unc-cheat does not guard the line very well. Heck they are likely worse than us at defending the 3 point line.

If Angel is playing at a high level, and the Miami 3 point shooters have a solid day behind the line, I like Miami's chances to get this done. Truth be told, Miami probably has just as good talent as unc-cheat has and Miami has far better coaching in terms of both motivation and X and O's. I would take Larranaga over Ol Roy all day everyday to coach my team.

Larranaga is the better coach, and Miami needs this win to move towards the good side of the bubble.