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View Full Version : WBB: NC State 72, Duke 59



aswewere
02-22-2015, 04:50 PM
Write up & Presser link http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22760&SPID=1846&DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=209902088&DB_OEM_ID=4200

aswewere
02-22-2015, 05:03 PM
Write up & Presser link http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22760&SPID=1846&DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=209902088&DB_OEM_ID=4200


Coach P team should walk home, agreed if the coaches are burning leather also.

GGLC
02-22-2015, 06:30 PM
Where's the press conference link? I'm not seeing it.

Duvall
02-22-2015, 07:07 PM
Jeez. With Finch-Yeager gone where will the players go to get treated for all the injuries from being thrown under the bus like that?

GGLC
02-22-2015, 07:09 PM
Jeez. With Finch-Yeager gone where will the players go to get treated for all the injuries from being thrown under the bus like that?

What are some of the more notable passages? I'm not able to view it at the moment.

devildeac
02-22-2015, 07:25 PM
unc has a regional trauma center, I think, that specializes in multiple injuries occurring with mass transit vehicles:o:rolleyes:.

GGLC
02-22-2015, 08:01 PM
"I wish they could walk home."

Where's the "we"?

jv001
02-22-2015, 10:14 PM
"I wish they could walk home."

Where's the "we"?

Is Coach P related to old roy? Naw, she doesn't say, Daggumit. GoDuke!

Newton_14
02-22-2015, 10:32 PM
Would anyone care to comment on the actual game?? Like, you know, how did the girls play, who played well, who didn't, who from State killed us, etc, or is just more entertaining to beat the horse over an over in a I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.fest??

Duvall
02-22-2015, 10:38 PM
Would anyone care to comment on the actual game?? Like, you know, how did the girls play, who played well, who didn't, who from State killed us, etc, or is just more entertaining to beat the horse over an over in a I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.fest??

Poorly, no one, everyone, everyone, and after a game like that, yes.

Kedsy
02-22-2015, 11:01 PM
Would anyone care to comment on the actual game?? Like, you know, how did the girls play, who played well, who didn't, who from State killed us, etc, or is just more entertaining to beat the horse over an over in a I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.fest??

State shot 12 for 25 from three-point range while Duke shot 3 for 18. That's really why we lost in a nutshell. Both our starting guards being in foul trouble much of the game didn't help matters. State's really short compared to Duke but played physically and made us work for every inside basket, and we frankly didn't have much else going on offense.

Azurá double-doubled (13 and 10), but turned the ball over 6 times and didn't seem to take as much advantage as she should have of the fact that she was being guarded by a woman 8 inches shorter than she is. Elizabeth went for 19 and 8, with a couple blocks. Amber, Kendall, and Erin all rebounded pretty well but didn't contribute much else.

Disappointing loss but not the end of the world.

tieguy
02-22-2015, 11:11 PM
18 turnovers to offset a monster night on the boards doesn't help either. :/ .91 points per possession, if my math is right - not great, but at some level actually pretty impressive given the poor shooting and awful turnovers. Can't win 'em all, I guess.

(And count me in the "we should all walk home" camp. What a sad excuse for leadership.)

~tieguy

Kedsy
02-22-2015, 11:19 PM
18 turnovers to offset a monster night on the boards doesn't help either.

18 turnovers is a little better than average (18.4 tpg) for this year's team. And understandable given our dearth of guards. Personally, I'm OK with anything under 20 to's.

This game was almost entirely about 3-point shooting. If NCSU shoots "only" 40% and Duke shoots our average of 33%, that's a 15 point swing and it's a completely different game.

GGLC
02-22-2015, 11:22 PM
18 turnovers is a little better than average (18.4 tpg) for this year's team. And understandable given our dearth of guards. Personally, I'm OK with anything under 20 to's.

This game was almost entirely about 3-point shooting. If NCSU shoots "only" 40% and Duke shoots our average of 33%, that's a 15 point swing and it's a completely different game.

Would you say they were 18 of the worst turnovers you've ever seen, Kedsy?

GGLC
02-22-2015, 11:29 PM
I really think Coach P's comments about the players in her press conference show a lack of leadership and character.

Kedsy
02-22-2015, 11:41 PM
Would you say they were 18 of the worst turnovers you've ever seen, Kedsy?

I wouldn't characterize them as qualitatively different from the 18 turnovers we usually get. But I haven't watched Coach P's press conference, so what do I know?

burnspbesq
02-23-2015, 03:03 AM
"I wish they could walk home."

Where's the "we"?

In this case, i think "they" is correct. That was a classic insufficient-effort loss. On Play for Kay day, you have to expect The Wuffies to come out on fire, and Duke didn't come close to matching their intensity. Did we get a single 50/50 ball all day? Not that i remember.

Just once, i'd like to see us try to play man for an entire game.

aswewere
02-23-2015, 05:57 AM
In this case, i think "they" is correct. That was a classic insufficient-effort loss. On Play for Kay day, you have to expect The Wuffies to come out on fire, and Duke didn't come close to matching their intensity. Did we get a single 50/50 ball all day? Not that i remember.

Just once, i'd like to see us try to play man for an entire game.

Every body should be on the same bus and it should be US & WE.

killerleft
02-23-2015, 10:41 AM
In this case, i think "they" is correct. That was a classic insufficient-effort loss. On Play for Kay day, you have to expect The Wuffies to come out on fire, and Duke didn't come close to matching their intensity. Did we get a single 50/50 ball all day? Not that i remember.

Just once, i'd like to see us try to play man for an entire game.

I have to agree with this. The women made mistakes of execution. It almost looked like they were weighing their options before picking the worst. Credit the Wolfpack for some inspired ball, but we gave them a lot of help. It took a perfect storm to lose like this. Well, that and the disheartening loss of players through injury and transfer. Our guards had shown improvement lately, but yesterday was a large step backward.

I don't think man-to-man would have been wise, but, hey, how much worse could it have been?:(

dudog84
02-23-2015, 11:38 AM
Question, because I am far from an expert on defensive strategies.

Do we not play man-to-man because of how thin we are? While it makes sense to me that Elizabeth and another big would be there to protect the rim and man-to-man would stop these shooting barrages, does it take a lot more energy to play it? And does there tend to be more fouls? Also, while Becca looks 100%, does zone relieve a pounding on her knees since she doesn't have to chase someone on the defensive end? She leads the team at about 34 minutes per game.

As for the game, we desperately need more production from our bench. I've seen progress, but they've been inconsistent. We played 8 women, and got a total of 2 points from 4 of them.

GGLC
02-23-2015, 11:42 AM
Given that people were defending Coach P in a previous thread by claiming (incorrectly) that she never calls out the team as a "they" but rather puts responsibility on "we" in her public comments, I think this latest example of her doing exactly the opposite is salient.

I also liked when she said that Ka'lia lacked basketball IQ; that was pretty classy.

CameronBornAndBred
02-23-2015, 11:44 AM
As for the game, we desperately need more production from our bench. I've seen progress, but they've been inconsistent. We played 8 women, and got a total of 2 points from 4 of them.
I agree, but just to play Devil's advocate, NCSU only played 2 bench players yesterday and got zero points from them. So we played one more player off our bench and got two more bench points than the Wuffies.

CameronBornAndBred
02-23-2015, 11:54 AM
To those that are calling P out for her use of "They", I think you are reading things out of context. Here is the full quote.

"I don't like the way our team played at all," McCallie said. "I am not happy with the team right now. I wish they could walk home to be honest with you. [That being said], I think we can play. I think we can play with anybody. It's just frustrating to not have more of a visionary team to see what we can do."

http://www.dukechronicle.com/articles/2015/02/22/sharp-shooting-propels-nc-state-past-duke-womens-basketball#.VOtatfnF-VM

GGLC
02-23-2015, 11:58 AM
So the positive, forward-looking comments are "we," and the critical comments regarding the loss are "they."

Yup, that makes it better.

Also, the quote about it being frustrating to her "to not have more of a visionary team" is the epitome of throwing the players under the bus. Such a shame that they lack the vision and capacity to implement her strategies. :rolleyes:

CameronBornAndBred
02-23-2015, 12:00 PM
So the positive, forward-looking comments are "we," and the critical comments regarding the loss are "they."


I don't like the way our team played at all.
Yes...that must be one of those positive ones you are alluding to.

GGLC
02-23-2015, 12:03 PM
Yes...that must be one of those positive ones you are alluding to.

Where in there is she taking partial responsibility for the loss, as opposed to putting it on how the team played?

dudog84
02-23-2015, 12:06 PM
I agree, but just to play Devil's advocate, NCSU only played 2 bench players yesterday and got zero points from them. So we played one more player off our bench and got two more bench points than the Wuffies.

Good point. We also got zero from our fifth starter, but dwhoops said Amber twisted her ankle in the first half. This team is so snake-bit by injuries. She continued to play so I hope it's minor. But also, without doing any research, I would think our bench is much more talented than the Wuffies. I want more from them (as I'm sure they want more from themselves).

This team is really young. Only 2 upperclassmen (I say this because Amber started the year as a redshirt Soph, and Mercedes is a first-year player at this level). What's one of the hallmarks of a young team? Losing on the road. 7 of the 8 losses were on the road. We need to win the next 2 games (which I believe will get us an ACC Tournament bye to Friday, and at least make the semifinals). I think we "should" make the finals and could even win. I want those 2 games in Cameron for a top 4 seed and the Greensboro region.

CameronBornAndBred
02-23-2015, 12:08 PM
Where in there is she taking partial responsibility for the loss, as opposed to putting it on how the team played?
4794

killerleft
02-23-2015, 12:14 PM
Where in there is she taking partial responsibility for the loss, as opposed to putting it on how the team played?

Depends on where you thought there was a strategic error made, maybe? I thought she looked remarkably composed considering the Keystone Kops type mistakes the women were making yesterday. Coach K would have had the spittle flying during several of the timeouts. Are they women or ladies?:) (That's for those who don't like for us oldtimers to dare to call them ladies:))

GGLC
02-23-2015, 12:25 PM
4794

By saying "I don't like how our team played at all," she is assigning blame to the play of the team as being wholly responsible for the loss -- which is supported by her lamenting about how the team lacks vision and how she wishes they could walk home from Raleigh to Durham.

The fact that she says "our team" in that instance is not any indicator of her taking any joint responsibility, as people in the other thread were saying about P supposedly only blaming "us" (coaching staff and players together) and not "them" (players only). What was she supposed to say, "I don't like how their team played at all"? That doesn't make syntactic sense. She would be referring to the Wolfpack if she did that.

dudog84
02-23-2015, 12:25 PM
Given that people were defending Coach P in a previous thread by claiming (incorrectly) that she never calls out the team as a "they" but rather puts responsibility on "we" in her public comments, I think this latest example of her doing exactly the opposite is salient.

I also liked when she said that Ka'lia lacked basketball IQ; that was pretty classy.

Wow, you like to take things out of context (as already shown by another poster). It appears I am the "people" you are referring to. The tenor of the post was somewhat critical of her press conferences and said there's a lot of "we". Not exclusively "we". Again, as shown by another poster already regarding the current statement. Please be accurate if you're going to call me out.

You pulled one "they" out of a 7-minute press conference. Yeah, it was a snarky comment. Yeah, I cringed a little. But do you have kids? Have you ever threatened to make them walk home? Although in today's environment, you'd probably have Children's Services called on you if you said it in public.

GGLC
02-23-2015, 12:28 PM
Depends on where you thought there was a strategic error made, maybe? I thought she looked remarkably composed considering the Keystone Kops type mistakes the women were making yesterday. Coach K would have had the spittle flying during several of the timeouts. Are they women or ladies?:) (That's for those who don't like for us oldtimers to dare to call them ladies:))

A good coach and leader shares responsibility with their team in public comments following a loss, even if it's just to say "we should have prepared them better so they didn't make as many Keystone Kops type mistakes." I can guarantee you that Coach K shoulders the lion's share of the blame in public following Duke losses, regardless of what he may think or say in private. That, or he talks up the good play of the other team. What he doesn't do is call his own players stupid (or "pathetic," as per the UConn loss) and put the loss entirely on them and their lack of vision/lack of ability to play.

GGLC
02-23-2015, 12:32 PM
Wow, you like to take things out of context (as already shown by another poster). It appears I am the "people" you are referring to. The tenor of the post was somewhat critical of her press conferences and said there's a lot of "we". Not exclusively "we". Again, as shown by another poster already regarding the current statement. Please be accurate if you're going to call me out.

You pulled one "they" out of a 7-minute press conference. Yeah, it was a snarky comment. Yeah, I cringed a little. But do you have kids? Have you ever threatened to make them walk home? Although in today's environment, you'd probably have Children's Services called on you if you said it in public.

In the quote posted by CameronBornandBred, there are four distinct instances of Coach P blaming the team or expressing displeasure with the players, and zero instances of her suggesting that she also shares any modicum of responsibility for the loss. And this is not an outlier. In the press conference quotes I've seen over this and past seasons, Coach P's predominant method of publicly addressing the reasons for a loss is to vent about the play of her players.

But I guess people have different interpretations depending on their preexisting views; I'm sure I'm not excluded from that.

Duvall
02-23-2015, 12:37 PM
In this case, i think "they" is correct. That was a classic insufficient-effort loss. On Play for Kay day, you have to expect The Wuffies to come out on fire, and Duke didn't come close to matching their intensity. Did we get a single 50/50 ball all day? Not that i remember.

Eh, we don't let Wheat get away with that talk, and we shouldn't either. Duke crushed NC State badly enough on both backboards that it's hard to say that effort was the problem. You don't rebound 46% of your own misses without effort.

And I think this is the first time NC State has actually won on a Play for Kay day in years.

AIM4excellence
02-23-2015, 12:39 PM
Question, because I am far from an expert on defensive strategies.

Do we not play man-to-man because of how thin we are? While it makes sense to me that Elizabeth and another big would be there to protect the rim and man-to-man would stop these shooting barrages, does it take a lot more energy to play it? And does there tend to be more fouls? Also, while Becca looks 100%, does zone relieve a pounding on her knees since she doesn't have to chase someone on the defensive end? She leads the team at about 34 minutes per game.

As for the game, we desperately need more production from our bench. I've seen progress, but they've been inconsistent. We played 8 women, and got a total of 2 points from 4 of them.

The team doesn't play man much, if at all, because McCallie prefers zone. No matter how many guards are on the team, the team plays zone almost exclusively. During Sierra Moore's frosh (& only) year, Duke had so many guards that Sierra Moore was pushed to play in the post. That team played zone almost all the time. It has nothing to do with personnel. It has to do with McCallie preferring zone defense.

Kedsy
02-23-2015, 12:40 PM
A good coach and leader shares responsibility with their team in public comments following a loss, even if it's just to say "we should have prepared them better so they didn't make as many Keystone Kops type mistakes." I can guarantee you that Coach K shoulders the lion's share of the blame in public following Duke losses, regardless of what he may think or say in private. That, or he talks up the good play of the other team. What he doesn't do is call his own players stupid (or "pathetic," as per the UConn loss) and put the loss entirely on them and their lack of vision/lack of ability to play.

I think you're putting way too much emphasis on a few comments made in a press conference immediately after a tough loss. Different coaches try to motivate in different ways. Different coaches have better or worse abilities to filter out their feelings and give politically correct soundbites when they speak in public, especially when they're upset.

Would it be more desirable for Coach P to control her feelings and say the "right" thing every time? Sure, probably. Does it have any true reflection on her ability as a coach or her ability to lead her players or her relationship with her players? I think not.

When Roy Williams does this, we laugh at him, but does anyone really think his press conference meltdowns and silly public comments mean he's a worse basketball coach or truly affects his relationship with his players? I hope not. The difference is when it comes to Coach P, people around here really do seem to think that, and in my view that's a position that has no factual or logical support.

Duvall
02-23-2015, 12:44 PM
I think you're putting way too much emphasis on a few comments made in a press conference immediately after a tough loss. Different coaches try to motivate in different ways. Different coaches have better or worse abilities to filter out their feelings and give politically correct soundbites when they speak in public, especially when they're upset.

Would it be more desirable for Coach P to control her feelings and say the "right" thing every time? Sure, probably. Does it have any true reflection on her ability as a coach or her ability to lead her players or her relationship with her players? I think not.

I think it's fair to wonder whether this lack of control has led some players to become former players.

GGLC
02-23-2015, 12:46 PM
I think you're putting way too much emphasis on a few comments made in a press conference immediately after a tough loss. Different coaches try to motivate in different ways. Different coaches have better or worse abilities to filter out their feelings and give politically correct soundbites when they speak in public, especially when they're upset.

Would it be more desirable for Coach P to control her feelings and say the "right" thing every time? Sure, probably. Does it have any true reflection on her ability as a coach or her ability to lead her players or her relationship with her players? I think not.

When Roy Williams does this, we laugh at him, but does anyone really think his press conference meltdowns and silly public comments mean he's a worse basketball coach or truly affects his relationship with his players? I hope not. The difference is when it comes to Coach P, people around here really do seem to think that, and in my view that's a position that has no factual or logical support.

All stick, no carrot doesn't seem like an effective way to motivate. (Do you think Coach P is any more temperate or measured in her private addresses to the team following losses, if this is the approach she habitually takes to press conferences?)

But at least we're beating the teams we're supposed to beat, right?

cspan37421
02-23-2015, 12:55 PM
A good coach and leader shares responsibility with their team in public comments following a loss, even if it's just to say "we should have prepared them better so they didn't make as many Keystone Kops type mistakes." I can guarantee you that Coach K shoulders the lion's share of the blame in public following Duke losses, regardless of what he may think or say in private. That, or he talks up the good play of the other team. What he doesn't do is call his own players stupid (or "pathetic," as per the UConn loss) and put the loss entirely on them and their lack of vision/lack of ability to play.

I agree. I was pretty shocked by P's words in the postgame press conference. She has been a winning coach, but she needs coaching herself w/r/t what to say in private and what to say to the media in public. She needs a filter and some tact. Publicly calling out one's own players by name with some of the words she used ("almost unforgivable" (twice), "lack of IQ" - note she didn't say "basketball IQ"! - ...). IMO she can show more class and still win - heck, maybe she'd win even more.

Kedsy
02-23-2015, 01:00 PM
I think it's fair to wonder whether this lack of control has led some players to become former players.

Possibly. That argument would be more persuasive if Duke under Coach P got hit with significantly more transfers than other schools, or even Duke under Coach G. But my understanding is that's not the case.

Kedsy
02-23-2015, 01:04 PM
But at least we're beating the teams we're supposed to beat, right?

Same could be said of Duke's men's team this season. Or any season. Or the vast majority of men's and women's teams in any season.

She's still on track to get to 100 ACC wins faster than any women's coach in history. The arguments against Coach P become WAY weaker if you start bringing wins and losses into the equation.

GGLC
02-23-2015, 01:22 PM
The arguments against Coach P become WAY weaker if you start bringing wins and losses into the equation.

Not really, given the top-heavy nature of women's college basketball and Coach P's success in recruiting (I'm sure the Duke name doesn't hurt). The lack of true talent parity between the top echelon of schools and the rest can hardly be overstated. And yet one of the defenses given by the Coach P supporters in response to her lack of Final Fours and her poor record against elite competition is that Duke beats the teams it's supposed to.

Whatever; we can go round and round on this and nobody wants or needs to read it. My sole point in this thread is that, in my opinion, a good leader does not conduct press conferences the way Coach P habitually does; a classy leader does not call her own player stupid in public.

brevity
02-23-2015, 01:45 PM
Whatever; we can go round and round on this and nobody wants or needs to read it.

And yet, here we are. These days I dread a Duke WBB loss not because of the effect on the team, but the ugly postgame thread that is sure to follow.

We could save ourselves some time and identify the Dramatis Personae on a sticky thread: agitated Coach P haters on one side and status quo Coach P defenders on the other. Same old agendas in hand. I know you. I see you. I see right through you.

For the record, I'm neither, and a plague on both your houses.

77devil
02-23-2015, 01:50 PM
I think you're putting way too much emphasis on a few comments made in a press conference immediately after a tough loss. Different coaches try to motivate in different ways. Different coaches have better or worse abilities to filter out their feelings and give politically correct soundbites when they speak in public, especially when they're upset.

Would it be more desirable for Coach P to control her feelings and say the "right" thing every time? Sure, probably. Does it have any true reflection on her ability as a coach or her ability to lead her players or her relationship with her players? I think not.

When Roy Williams does this, we laugh at him, but does anyone really think his press conference meltdowns and silly public comments mean he's a worse basketball coach or truly affects his relationship with his players? I hope not. The difference is when it comes to Coach P, people around here really do seem to think that, and in my view that's a position that has no factual or logical support.

We actually ridicule Roy and rightfully so, but I do not recall where he has called out individuals by name in an abusive manner; and while his attitude in the pressers is self absorbed, his demeanor is generally restrained. And yes, I believe his players respect him less for it. I think a better comparison for Coach P's post game behavior, and perhaps in other inappropriate ways, is Bobby Knight.


Not really, given the top-heavy nature of women's college basketball and Coach P's success in recruiting (I'm sure the Duke name doesn't hurt). The lack of true talent parity between the top echelon of schools and the rest can hardly be overstated. And yet one of the defenses given by the Coach P supporters in response to her lack of Final Fours and her poor record against elite competition is that Duke beats the teams it's supposed to.

Whatever; we can go round and round on this and nobody wants or needs to read it. My sole point in this thread is that, in my opinion, a good leader does not conduct press conferences the way Coach P habitually does; a classy leader does not call her own player stupid in public.

I hesitated to wade into this discussion but I agree with this. The perfect example in contrast to Coach P occupies an office nearby.

killerleft
02-23-2015, 02:36 PM
A good coach and leader shares responsibility with their team in public comments following a loss, even if it's just to say "we should have prepared them better so they didn't make as many Keystone Kops type mistakes." I can guarantee you that Coach K shoulders the lion's share of the blame in public following Duke losses, regardless of what he may think or say in private. That, or he talks up the good play of the other team. What he doesn't do is call his own players stupid (or "pathetic," as per the UConn loss) and put the loss entirely on them and their lack of vision/lack of ability to play.

Point taken.

DukieInKansas
02-23-2015, 03:27 PM
I agree that Coach P needs to learn how to handle press conferences in a better way - even if a loss can be blamed totally on the players, I don't think a coach should make that the main talking point in the post game press conference. I certainly hope that Kevin White is paying attention to these statements and that he is actively seeking input from current and former players, coaching staff, families that have information reflecting on Coach P's abilities (good or bad). In the mean time, it appears that any post game thread is going to end up the same way: 4795

Perhaps it is time to leave the poor horse alone and focus on the actual play. A coaching change is very unlikely to happen mid-season. Let's see what happens to the coaching situation when the season is over.

Kedsy
02-23-2015, 04:10 PM
A coaching change is very unlikely to happen mid-season.

Or at all, in the foreseeable future.

burnspbesq
02-23-2015, 04:24 PM
There is only one solution here: for all future Duke women's games, let's have two threads, one for the pathological haters and one for those who are willing to make an attempt to be objective. I think we know which posters belong in which thread.

killerleft
02-23-2015, 04:37 PM
Not really, given the top-heavy nature of women's college basketball and Coach P's success in recruiting (I'm sure the Duke name doesn't hurt). The lack of true talent parity between the top echelon of schools and the rest can hardly be overstated. And yet one of the defenses given by the Coach P supporters in response to her lack of Final Fours and her poor record against elite competition is that Duke beats the teams it's supposed to.

Whatever; we can go round and round on this and nobody wants or needs to read it. My sole point in this thread is that, in my opinion, a good leader does not conduct press conferences the way Coach P habitually does; a classy leader does not call her own player stupid in public.

Wasn't this same "top-heavy nature of women's college basketball" in effect (probably even moreso) for the coaches she will best with her next win? If so, why the "Not really"?

Duvall
02-23-2015, 05:01 PM
Wasn't this same "top-heavy nature of women's college basketball" in effect (probably even moreso) for the coaches she will best with her next win? If so, why the "Not really"?

For Chris Weller, Debbie Ryan and Kay Yow? Not sure that comparison really works.

Mike Corey
02-23-2015, 05:02 PM
For the record, I'm neither, and a plague on both your houses.

This wins the thread. Brevity is indeed wit.

Sorry for interrupting everyone biting their thumbs at one another.

CameronBornAndBred
02-23-2015, 05:15 PM
Azurá Stevens was selected ACC rookie of the week. Pretty impressive given that both games she played in were losses.

A product of Raleigh, N.C., Stevens averaged 13.0 points, 10.0 rebounds and 1.5 steals in contests on the road at fourth-ranked Notre Dame and N.C. State. The 6-5 rookie totaled double-doubles in both games and has registered a career-best three straight contests with a double-double.
http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22760&SPID=1846&DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=209902876&DB_OEM_ID=4200

DukieInKansas
02-23-2015, 05:22 PM
Azurá Stevens was selected ACC rookie of the week. Pretty impressive given that both games she played in were losses.

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22760&SPID=1846&DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=209902876&DB_OEM_ID=4200

Congratulations!

GGLC
02-23-2015, 05:24 PM
There is only one solution here: for all future Duke women's games, let's have two threads, one for the pathological haters and one for those who are willing to make an attempt to be objective. I think we know which posters belong in which thread.

Do you disagree that a coach should not publicly call a player stupid?

DU82
02-23-2015, 05:40 PM
For Chris Weller, Debbie Ryan and Kay Yow? Not sure that comparison really works.

I would argue that the game is more competitive now than it was when these three pioneers started coaching. Note that IIRC even though State hadn't beat Duke at Reynolds or at Cameron since 2001 (before yesterday), State still leads the overall series.

In my view, Duke didn't support women's basketball fully until Coach G arrived (my guess is the lack of support is one reason Debbie Leonard stepped down.) That means that all the schools that did (Maryland, Virginia, State, Cheats, Clemson) had about a 15 year head start.

AIM4excellence
02-23-2015, 06:57 PM
I would argue that the game is more competitive now than it was when these three pioneers started coaching. Note that IIRC even though State hadn't beat Duke at Reynolds or at Cameron since 2001 (before yesterday), State still leads the overall series.

In my view, Duke didn't support women's basketball fully until Coach G arrived (my guess is the lack of support is one reason Debbie Leonard stepped down.) That means that all the schools that did (Maryland, Virginia, State, Cheats, Clemson) had about a 15 year head start.

This description is very true. Debbie had one Asst Coach (Jacki Silar), who was also the Field Hockey Coach. IIRC, Jacki became the full time AC when a coach was hired for Field Hockey. There may have been one additional AC added later. Practice facility and locker room for women were pathetic. Changes were made when Coach G was hired. But, Coach G was NOT "fully supported" unless you think that having her boss openly ridicule her for not winning the NC as being in any way supportive. And this was in the face of making 4 FF's and 2 Championship Games in 7 years.

NSDukeFan
02-23-2015, 08:14 PM
]
Congratulations!

Is that congratulations to Azura, or to CB&B for the post about one of the players?

DukieInKansas
02-24-2015, 01:53 AM
]

Is that congratulations to Azura, or to CB&B for the post about one of the players?

In this thread, actually most of the WBB threads these days, the answer is yes. ;-)

Definitely huge congratulatioms to her.

Kfanarmy
02-24-2015, 08:11 PM
Same could be said of Duke's men's team this season. Or any season. Or the vast majority of men's and women's teams in any season.

She's still on track to get to 100 ACC wins faster than any women's coach in history. The arguments against Coach P become WAY weaker if you start bringing wins and losses into the equation.

I think the impetus for coach P's quick start (record) at Duke was taking over a top 5 program. The statistical picture you paint may be accurate, but her early Ws weren't to her sole credit.

Kfanarmy
02-24-2015, 08:17 PM
There is only one solution here: for all future Duke women's games, let's have two threads, one for the pathological haters and one for those who are willing to make an attempt to be objective. I think we know which posters belong in which thread.

Isn't this a bit self serving? Wouldn't the two sides, assuming a few reasonable centrists, be pathological haters and pathological lovers?

dudog84
02-24-2015, 08:42 PM
I think the impetus for coach P's quick start (record) at Duke was taking over a top 5 program. The statistical picture you paint may be accurate, but her early Ws weren't to her sole credit.

Ah, they ol' "She won with other people's players" meme.

So, "Kfanarmy", kinda like Coach K took over a program that in the previous three years had gone to the National Championship game and the Elite Eight and started out like a house on fire?

Or the coaches who took over at UCLA after Wooden, Doherty at UNC, a number of coaches at Kentucky, St. Johns, Indiana.......It's not that easy. Have you ever even looked at Coach P's record at Maine and Michigan State? I don't know how Duke ever hired such a failure.

And before you say that the men's game is different from the women's, that's just off the top of my head and I don't know the women's game as well. And I don't feel like doing the research to counter this inanity. I'm sure it's there if I went looking for it.

Kfanarmy
02-24-2015, 09:00 PM
Ah, they ol' "She won with other people's players" meme.

So, "Kfanarmy", kinda like Coach K took over a program that in the previous three years had gone to the National Championship game and the Elite Eight and started out like a house on fire?

Or the coaches who took over at UCLA after Wooden, Doherty at UNC, a number of coaches at Kentucky, St. Johns, Indiana.......It's not that easy. Have you ever even looked at Coach P's record at Maine and Michigan State? I don't know how Duke ever hired such a failure.

And before you say that the men's game is different from the women's, that's just off the top of my head and I don't know the women's game as well. And I don't feel like doing the research to counter this inanity. I'm sure it's there if I went looking for it.
I've not argued that coach P hasn't done anything; Duke has a top 25 program. I think I've been balanced, recognizing that. Just as I recognize the limitations of the talent, through attrition, she has available now, I recognize where the team was when she took over the program. Understand you are a staunch defender of all things coach P, but ask that you lighten up on the insults.

GGLC
02-24-2015, 09:00 PM
Ah, they ol' "She won with other people's players" meme.

So, "Kfanarmy", kinda like Coach K took over a program that in the previous three years had gone to the National Championship game and the Elite Eight and started out like a house on fire?

Or the coaches who took over at UCLA after Wooden, Doherty at UNC, a number of coaches at Kentucky, St. Johns, Indiana.......It's not that easy. Have you ever even looked at Coach P's record at Maine and Michigan State? I don't know how Duke ever hired such a failure.

And before you say that the men's game is different from the women's, that's just off the top of my head and I don't know the women's game as well. And I don't feel like doing the research to counter this inanity. I'm sure it's there if I went looking for it.

I'll ask you a similar question to the one I asked burns. How do you feel about a coach calling one of her own players stupid in a press conference?

burnspbesq
02-24-2015, 09:09 PM
Do you disagree that a coach should not publicly call a player stupid?

That depends on one thing, and one thing only: did the player act stupidly. Accountability means that when you mess up, you take the heat.

Was Manuel Pellegrini wrong, in his post-match press conference today, to say (referring to a really foolish foul by Pablo Zabaleta late in the match) "It was a really unnecessary penalty?"

Is it your view that there is a meaningful difference between saying "We were out-fought, out-thought, and out-hustled. It was just a bad effort." and saying "The team was out-fought, out-thought, and out-hustled. It was a really bad effort."

Kedsy
02-24-2015, 09:39 PM
I've not argued that coach P hasn't done anything; Duke has a top 25 program. I think I've been balanced, recognizing that. Just as I recognize the limitations of the talent, through attrition, she has available now, I recognize where the team was when she took over the program.

There is some truth in what you say here, but in my opinion it's not as clear cut as you make it. Coach P took over the program the year after two All-Americans (Alison Bales and Lindsey Harding) graduated. The team she inherited was a good team, but not top 5 caliber. It wasn't nearly as talented a team as the 8 years before, or the five or six years after.

killerleft
02-24-2015, 09:50 PM
I'll ask you a similar question to the one I asked burns. How do you feel about a coach calling one of her own players stupid in a press conference?

Who did she call stupid? Or did she say someone made a stupid play? There is a difference, and I don't think she said anybody was stupid. Just like she said, we made some stupid and self-inflicted turnovers. State just had to be nearby to pick up the ball or throw it in. By the way, those stupid Tar Heels just lost to State!

tbyers11
02-24-2015, 10:04 PM
That depends on one thing, and one thing only: did the player act stupidly. Accountability means that when you mess up, you take the heat.

Was Manuel Pellegrini wrong, in his post-match press conference today, to say (referring to a really foolish foul by Pablo Zabaleta late in the match) "It was a really unnecessary penalty?"


I hate to wade into this morass, but here I go.

Accountability is necessary. In practice. In a team meeting. IMO, shaming your players in a public press conference is bad form. To me, there is a big difference between saying "we need to take better care of the ball" and "Player X had a stupid turnover" in a public setting. I think this applies to any coach (be it P, K, or XYZ).

Also big difference between professional paid footballers and college basketball players. Also, my opinion.

Kfanarmy
02-24-2015, 10:25 PM
There is some truth in what you say here, but in my opinion it's not as clear cut as you make it. Coach P took over the program the year after two All-Americans (Alison Bales and Lindsey Harding) graduated. The team she inherited was a good team, but not top 5 caliber. It wasn't nearly as talented a team as the 8 years before, or the five or six years after.

You are probably right. Still there were at least three future WNBA players on the roster she inherited.

throatybeard
02-24-2015, 10:34 PM
Isn't this a bit self serving? Wouldn't the two sides, assuming a few reasonable centrists, be pathological haters and pathological lovers?

I haven't seen any "pathological lovers" of McCallie. What I've seen is a tiresome avalanche of recrimination towards her after just about every single loss, and an opposition trying to talk some sense.

tieguy
02-24-2015, 10:37 PM
You are probably right. Still there were at least three future WNBA players on the roster she inherited.

The team she inherited was also the only team she's coached to beat a same-season #1 seed (Maryland, that year). Every other team she's coached has lost every other game she's played against a team that went on to be a #1 seed in the same season - 0-19 now, I think, or something like that. (I stopped counting the average margin in those games, but it's been hovering around 20 points for years. The deceptively close loss @ ND and genuinely close loss to USC this year helped, but of course yet another blowout against Geno didn't.)

Look, we did not win a title in the previous regime, and it wasn't perfect by any stretch, but we were competitive against the other top 3-5 teams. We're no longer in that top echelon, we're now a notch below. Maybe that should be good enough, but let's not pretend otherwise - we've taken a step back.

~tieguy

[Edited to add: only 0-16 since that first season, not 0-19; average defeat by 19.4 points.]

Kfanarmy
02-24-2015, 10:40 PM
I haven't seen any "pathological lovers" of McCallie. What I've seen is a tiresome avalanche of recrimination towards her after just about every single loss, and an opposition trying to talk some sense.

Well some of the sensible opposition seem to be most reliant on insulting those they disagree with. Too much destructive passion in the conversation.

uh_no
02-24-2015, 10:57 PM
So I finally sat and watched the hole 8 minutes of press conference, and I thought it was mostly fine....but there were just some things, some of which have been pointed out, that REALLY stuck out in my head as awkward.

on ka'lia fouling out


unforgivable on her part. I give her NO credit for the 4th and 5th fouls...problematic. Very dissapointing.
unforgivable? a senior making a low IQ play (as P called it), first of all shouldn't happen, second of all some blame has to go to the coach. If you're going to rip a player, at least say something amusing ("yeah, she was slow out there, but at least she's short")


Number 22, number 2, number 3
I'd only caught glimpses of pressers before, but holy hell that's annoying. Show some respect for the players you're playing against. They're humans. IMO this goes hand in hand with the diamond deshields thing. You ever see how Geno treats opposing players? If I recall he gave Skyler Diggins a hug after beating her in the final four, her last college game. A player that had beaten Uconn twice in the final four in her tenure, who had I think a .500 record against uconn, had showboated on their own floor...and he hugs her and tells her she's a fantastic player.



I wish they could walk home, honestly. It's frustrating not to have more of a visionary team" a more "visionary" team? what does that even mean? that they don't want to win? If a team is consistently in a position where they can't successfully execute what the coach wants in so much that she calls them out in the presser....that's on the coach for having an un-implementable vision. I'd say it for P, I'd say it for Kevin Ollie this year (and heck, he DOES have a title), I'd say it for roy a few years ago. I'd say it for K last year. You can't keep saying "we need to play this way" and then blaming the players when they CAN'T play that way



We're a defensive and rebounding team has P ever had an offensive minded team?



I'm not looking for positives right now What???? You're the coach! have some objectivity! If you couldn't find a SINGLE thing the team did well, then you're not a very good coach. I sit here and point out things we can improve on after we win, and sometimes win big...because that's ultimately how you get better. But you don't get better by demoralizing a team doubly after a loss by telling them that there're no positives, or more accurately, that you're not even LOOKING for things your players do well. What kind of message does that send to the team? Why would they want to try to do better when their coach has said she's not going to bother looking for or rewarding them for the positive things they're doing??? It's mind boggling.

I've had one geno anecdote, but here's another. He is hardest on his team after they win the biggest, and most complimentary of his team after a tough loss. If you're over the top complimentary after a big win, it gets in their heads that they're already as good as they can be, and contrarily, if you beat them down after they're beat down after a loss, they're apt to become discouraged and not work to improve. By doing it his way, he keeps the team much more level headed, building over the course of the year until they get to march and feel unbeatable. I think it's a good idea....much better than telling your team you're not looking for positives, anyway.

As I said, most of the PC is alright it's just these few statements really make me scratch my head.

Henderson
02-25-2015, 09:15 AM
I too finally got around to watching the Coach P presser last night, and I had the exact same reaction uh_no had. I got that "oh geez" feeling I get when I see some parent screaming at and swatting a 3 year old in the grocery store.

We saw the same thing after the UConn loss, then things seemed to get better for Coach P's pressers. Now we're back to this?

I'm a fan of Coach P, but she does seem to have this blind spot. Compulsively saying in public everything that crosses your mind, without a filter, is more like Tourette Syndrome than coaching. And when it's directed at 18-21 year old students, it's not a pleasant thing to watch. I sometimes wonder if Coach P regrets these kinds of outburst the next day or if they are just part of a deliberate coaching style.

dudog84
02-25-2015, 10:13 AM
This is my response to several posts on this thread and others re DWB. It’s not meant to call anyone out, it’s just my viewpoint.

I have never met Coach P, and have not even been back to Durham in over 10 years. I’ve never even met a DWB player past or present.

I just find it extremely distasteful to call for someone to be fired. Short of incompetence (lousy record, think football for years), criminal activity, or abuse of players (and I’m not referring to being a meanie and yelling at them). We’re talking about a person’s reputation and livelihood.

Stupid comments in a press conference? I could give a hoot. I’m on record saying she makes me cringe sometimes. The only reason I’ve even watched some press conferences is to see what the fuss is about. And I’ve never watched another coach’s press conference, but I’m fairly sure she’s not the only one who sticks her foot in it. Does it reflect poorly on her? I guess. For the very few people who are watching it. Does it reflect poorly on Duke? Maybe. And maybe I’m in the minority, but I get weary of coachspeak. But then what would we talk about on this board? :)

Referring to an opposing player by number, not name? C’mon. I’ve never coached basketball, but I imagine in prep and film that the coaches refer to the opposition by number. That’s what your player is seeing on the front of the jersey. It’s probably familiar to her, maybe she doesn’t want to mess up the name. Jeez.

I’m also in the camp that thinks we’re way too sensitive nowadays about words. We parse every little phrase. God forbid we hurt somebody’s feelings. If Duke had given me a free ride, Terry Sanford could have called me into his office every day for four years and berated me. Then gone to the Herald-Sun or Chronicle and told everyone what a moron I was. I would have collected my tuition check and free meals and walked away a happy man.

I’m more interested in results. No sane person can question her results. This year we’ve lost two top-10 recruits to injury. And we’ve got a forward playing point (think Amile Jefferson running point for the men). Last year we lost two top-10 recruits to injury. The year before, one top-10 recruit. The year before that, another top-10 recruit. I’ve asked before if anyone thinks another coach (outside of maybe Geno) could lose their top player and make the Final Four. Not a single naysayer has taken me up on the gambit.

The incessant complaints about the offense? I’ve pointed this out before, I guess I have to do it again. The last three years, the average field goal percentage under Coach P was better than the last three years under Coach G. Or the last 10 years under Coach G. And last year, with both point guards going down, it was within 0.4% of UConn. So enough, please.

Sports is entertainment. I like to watch the game. Duke basketball (M & W) is probably my favorite. But I say this in all seriousness: if it came down to either team going 0-30 or me making an extra $10 grand this year, I’m taking the $10 grand. There are more important things going on in my life.

To address one specific point above (I like research and this only took a couple of seconds). The following is a partial list of programs that have won a women’s national championship: Lousiana Tech (2X), Southern Cal (2X), Old Dominion, Texas, Texas Tech, Purdue…are any of these programs consistently elite? It’s not easy to maintain status, whether you inherit it or not.

Who would you say now are the consistent elite teams? UConn, Notre Dame, Stanford? Anyone see what Stanford is doing this year? Hint, they’re ranked below us. Notre Dame? They're on an incredible run now, but six years ago they had 9 losses and went out in the first round of the NCAA Tournament. Eight years ago they had 12 losses. The year before that, another 12 losses (and another first round loss).

Me, I’m just gonna enjoy what we got.

AIM4excellence
02-25-2015, 03:48 PM
This is my response to several posts on this thread and others re DWB. It’s not meant to call anyone out, it’s just my viewpoint.

I have never met Coach P, and have not even been back to Durham in over 10 years. I’ve never even met a DWB player past or present.

I just find it extremely distasteful to call for someone to be fired. Short of incompetence (lousy record, think football for years), criminal activity, or abuse of players (and I’m not referring to being a meanie and yelling at them). We’re talking about a person’s reputation and livelihood.

Stupid comments in a press conference? I could give a hoot. I’m on record saying she makes me cringe sometimes. The only reason I’ve even watched some press conferences is to see what the fuss is about. And I’ve never watched another coach’s press conference, but I’m fairly sure she’s not the only one who sticks her foot in it. Does it reflect poorly on her? I guess. For the very few people who are watching it. Does it reflect poorly on Duke? Maybe. And maybe I’m in the minority, but I get weary of coachspeak. But then what would we talk about on this board? :)

Referring to an opposing player by number, not name? C’mon. I’ve never coached basketball, but I imagine in prep and film that the coaches refer to the opposition by number. That’s what your player is seeing on the front of the jersey. It’s probably familiar to her, maybe she doesn’t want to mess up the name. Jeez.

I’m also in the camp that thinks we’re way too sensitive nowadays about words. We parse every little phrase. God forbid we hurt somebody’s feelings. If Duke had given me a free ride, Terry Sanford could have called me into his office every day for four years and berated me. Then gone to the Herald-Sun or Chronicle and told everyone what a moron I was. I would have collected my tuition check and free meals and walked away a happy man.
I’m more interested in results. No sane person can question her results. This year we’ve lost two top-10 recruits to injury. And we’ve got a forward playing point (think Amile Jefferson running point for the men). Last year we lost two top-10 recruits to injury. The year before, one top-10 recruit. The year before that, another top-10 recruit. I’ve asked before if anyone thinks another coach (outside of maybe Geno) could lose their top player and make the Final Four. Not a single naysayer has taken me up on the gambit.

The incessant complaints about the offense? I’ve pointed this out before, I guess I have to do it again. The last three years, the average field goal percentage under Coach P was better than the last three years under Coach G. Or the last 10 years under Coach G. And last year, with both point guards going down, it was within 0.4% of UConn. So enough, please.

Sports is entertainment. I like to watch the game. Duke basketball (M & W) is probably my favorite. But I say this in all seriousness: if it came down to either team going 0-30 or me making an extra $10 grand this year, I’m taking the $10 grand. There are more important things going on in my life.

To address one specific point above (I like research and this only took a couple of seconds). The following is a partial list of programs that have won a women’s national championship: Lousiana Tech (2X), Southern Cal (2X), Old Dominion, Texas, Texas Tech, Purdue…are any of these programs consistently elite? It’s not easy to maintain status, whether you inherit it or not.

Who would you say now are the consistent elite teams? UConn, Notre Dame, Stanford? Anyone see what Stanford is doing this year? Hint, they’re ranked below us. Notre Dame? They're on an incredible run now, but six years ago they had 9 losses and went out in the first round of the NCAA Tournament. Eight years ago they had 12 losses. The year before that, another 12 losses (and another first round loss).

Me, I’m just gonna enjoy what we got.

Everyone does not have the same immunity to being insulted and publically shamed as you seem to have, or to be clear, that you state you would have. There are lots of people who respond to this type of treatment by developing depression or anxiety to the point where they can no longer complete their schoolwork, or in the case of an employee, that they cannot perform their job. What might be perfectly acceptable to you may not be acceptable to another person. For example, you might not mind if someone repeatedly called you a liar. I, on the other hand, find it to be intolerable. It was very refreshing to see an entire post by you in which you did not call me a liar, or whatever variation of the English language you use to mean the same thing.

And one little quibble: KJ is a guard. She played PG in high school. She may have played some minutes at Duke in the small forward position, but she is very much a guard, not a forward and has played the great majority of her minutes at one of the two guard spots. Comparing her playing PG to Jefferson, PF on the men's team, is just plain ludicrous.

dudog84
02-25-2015, 06:01 PM
You are probably right. Still there were at least three future WNBA players on the roster she inherited.

Whoa. Those "at least three future WNBA players" went on to 1) average 3.8 points and 4.2 rebounds, 2) play in 7 games, and 3) play in 1 game. While the cupboard was not bare, it most certainly was not stocked.

dudog84
02-25-2015, 06:18 PM
Oh, and they had also just lost the National Player of the Year and the ACC career leader in blocks.

bluedevilsince72
02-25-2015, 06:52 PM
Anyone who really follows women's college bball (especially for the past 20 years or so) knows that there is a huge divide between the top 5 and the rest of the top 20 (and even bigger after the top 20). In the last 20 years, the drop off from the top 4-5 (UConn, ND, Tenn, Stanford, with an occasional rotation of the 5th team) is huge. As a result, entire season team stats are very misleading. That gap has closed slightly in the last 5 years but there is usually a big difference between the top 5 and everyone else.

I want to know what the stats are for Coach P against the top tier teams. My guess is that its very unimpressive and getting worse. This is the basic argument for those not in the Coach P camp. With Coach G vs the top tier, DWB would occasionally lose, but rarely get blown out. They would also get some big wins to go to the Final 4 and get some wins vs the top 5 teams (Tennessee a few times and @Uconn to name a few).

Its a very tough call with all of the injuries of top players to accurately assess what Coach P might have accomplished. What we do know is attendance is down, their offense is tolerable at best and watching paint dry at worst, and zone defense all game allows less talented teams to compete. And please don't bring up Syracuse wins with zone. Coach P doesn't teach the zone like Boeheim (and neither does anyone else).

You can still play man to man with slower players (i.e. Wisconsin on the men's side and Duke men Nat Title in 2010). A pack line type defense that reduces penetration, doesn't give up open 3s, and makes offense shoot over the top. Sounds like a good plan for a tall team. With man to man, we wouldn't keep giving up so many wide open threes. We would also defensive rebound even better.

My question for Coach P would be if they aren't able to play zone good defense by this point in the season, who needs to look in the mirror? If they can't execute it by now, maybe its not the players' fault.

Develop a system that can beat the best (Uconn, ND, Stanford) and not a system that beats Clemson and Wake Forests of the world. While I like ACC titles, I want a national title for the great kids in the DWB program. I fear now that were are dropping down right along with the UNC women's program which is truly sad for the DWB fans looking for EXCELLENCE.

dudog84
02-25-2015, 07:02 PM
Everyone does not have the same immunity to being insulted and publically shamed as you seem to have, or to be clear, that you state you would have. There are lots of people who respond to this type of treatment by developing depression or anxiety to the point where they can no longer complete their schoolwork, or in the case of an employee, that they cannot perform their job. What might be perfectly acceptable to you may not be acceptable to another person. For example, you might not mind if someone repeatedly called you a liar. I, on the other hand, find it to be intolerable. It was very refreshing to see an entire post by you in which you did not call me a liar, or whatever variation of the English language you use to mean the same thing.

And one little quibble: KJ is a guard. She played PG in high school. She may have played some minutes at Duke in the small forward position, but she is very much a guard, not a forward and has played the great majority of her minutes at one of the two guard spots. Comparing her playing PG to Jefferson, PF on the men's team, is just plain ludicrous.

I was not going to respond to this, because I’m not going to get into a back-and-forth with you, but wow. Do you have a persecution complex or what? Where in that post do you get that I was addressing you specifically, if even at all? By what stretch of your imagination? I don’t think my post merits your response at all. My goodness.

As for Kalia, these are her numbers:

Freshman: 38 points, 37 rebounds, 6 assists, 13 turnovers
Sophomore: 69 points, 97 rebounds, 11 assists, 25 turnovers
Junior: 128 points, 84 rebounds, 22 assists, 39 turnovers

Yeah, those are real point guard numbers. Ludicrous indeed. Although I must say, your post is not untruthful per se.

jimmymax
02-25-2015, 07:26 PM
Seems like a great recruiter but I wouldn't let my daughter play for her.

killerleft
02-25-2015, 09:07 PM
Seems like a great recruiter but I wouldn't let my daughter play for her.

UCONN fan, jimmymax?

AIM4excellence
02-25-2015, 09:19 PM
I was not going to respond to this, because I’m not going to get into a back-and-forth with you, but wow. Do you have a persecution complex or what? Where in that post do you get that I was addressing you specifically, if even at all? By what stretch of your imagination? I don’t think my post merits your response at all. My goodness.

As for Kalia, these are her numbers:

Freshman: 38 points, 37 rebounds, 6 assists, 13 turnovers
Sophomore: 69 points, 97 rebounds, 11 assists, 25 turnovers
Junior: 128 points, 84 rebounds, 22 assists, 39 turnovers

Yeah, those are real point guard numbers. Ludicrous indeed. Although I must say, your post is not untruthful per se.

Where in the whole wide world did I say your post was addressed to me? Please tell me. I knew your post was not addressed to me, and I did not say or imply that it was. What in the world? I simply addressed the content of your post, which I think is what we do here. In your post, you said you would be happy to be berated, even publically if you had been granted a scholarship. I responded to that. Maybe that type of behavior would not impact YOU, but that does not mean it does not impact others negatively. You just can't make that leap.

Regarding KJ - I said she was a PG in high school, which she was. She has never, ever (to my knowledge) played Power Forward. Did I ever say her numbers her first three seasons were great or indicated she'd be a good PG? NO. Because I knew she would not be a good PG at this level - she doesn't see the floor well enough. She does have above average rebounding numbers for a guard. Which is what she has always been - a guard. Which was my entire point. Yes it IS ludicrous to compare a player who has always played GUARD to a player who has always played POWER FORWARD.

Your entire post has absolutely NOTHING to do with the content of my post. It was like I said "oranges" and you said "why did you say apples?" And what kind of remark is this "your post is not untruthful per se." Why say that? Totally unnecessary, but unfortunately standard modus operandi.

If you cannot respond to the content of my post, please don't bother as it adds nothing to a rational discussion.

Kedsy
02-26-2015, 01:31 AM
Anyone who really follows women's college bball (especially for the past 20 years or so) knows that there is a huge divide between the top 5 and the rest of the top 20 (and even bigger after the top 20). In the last 20 years, the drop off from the top 4-5 (UConn, ND, Tenn, Stanford, with an occasional rotation of the 5th team) is huge. As a result, entire season team stats are very misleading. That gap has closed slightly in the last 5 years but there is usually a big difference between the top 5 and everyone else.

Actually, anyone who really follows women's college bball knows this isn't really true anymore. Certainly UConn has dominated the sport, especially over the time that Coach P has been at Duke -- during Coach P's seven years here, UConn has made the Final Four all seven years and has won four national championships. But beyond that, the top teams have varied. For example, Tennessee hasn't been to a Final Four since 2008. Notre Dame has been very strong since 2011, but didn't make it past the Sweet 16 in any of the nine seasons before that (and only made it as far as the Sweet 16 in four of those nine seasons). Especially if you're talking 10 or 20 years, it's hard to say either of those programs have consistently been among the top four or five in the country.

Also, if the sport really were truly dominated by just four or five teams, you'd think the Final Four would have all #1 seeds in it every year, wouldn't you? Well that did happen in 2012. But during the other six seasons that Coach P has been at Duke, only half the Final Four teams have been #1 seeds, and of those, half were UConn. Here's the seven year breakdown during Coach P's time at Duke:

#1 UConn: 7
#1 other than UConn: 9
#2: 7
#3: 2
#4: 2
#5: 1

Go down to the Elite Eight, and 29% of the teams were seeded #3 or lower, and 18% were seeded #4 or lower.

So based on the above, there's definitely a huge divide between UConn and everyone else, but it certainly doesn't seem like there's such a huge divide between the top 4 or 5 teams and the 10 or 15 teams below that.


My question for Coach P would be if they aren't able to play zone good defense by this point in the season, who needs to look in the mirror? If they can't execute it by now, maybe its not the players' fault.

Duke currently ranks 13th in the country in fewest points allowed per possession. In 2013, we ranked 5th in fewest points allowed per possession. In 2012, we ranked 11th, and in 2011 we ranked 6th. While it's true that in 2014 we only ranked 41st (and I don't have applicable stats for Coach P's first three seasons), I'd say not only does Duke "play good defense by this point in the season," but Coach P's Duke teams have consistently been one of the top defensive teams in the nation.


Develop a system that can beat the best (Uconn, ND, Stanford) and not a system that beats Clemson and Wake Forests of the world.

Oh, all we have to do is "develop a system that can beat [UConn and Notre Dame]"? Is that all? Why didn't Coach P think of that?

Did you know that during Coach P's almost-eight seasons at Duke, UConn has only lost seven games to teams other than Notre Dame? That's right, fewer than one per season. And in the past almost-four seasons in which Duke has played Notre Dame, the Irish have only lost five games to teams other than UConn. So it doesn't sound like anyone else has found the magic system that can beat those teams, either, does it?

throatybeard
02-26-2015, 01:20 PM
I wonder if the mods could sticky this thread, just so there isn't an identical new thread every single time the women's team loses a game.

Kfanarmy
02-26-2015, 02:05 PM
Whoa. Those "at least three future WNBA players" went on to 1) average 3.8 points and 4.2 rebounds, 2) play in 7 games, and 3) play in 1 game. While the cupboard was not bare, it most certainly was not stocked.

Well fortunately she got the best out of those scrubs then. Duke's had a lot of really really good players not get into the NBA at all,,,so your point here, really isn't one.

DukieInKansas
02-26-2015, 02:07 PM
Well fortunately she got the best out of those scrubs then. Duke's had a lot of really really good players not get into the NBA at all,,,so your point here, really isn't one.

Are you talking about the Men's team or the Women's team? ;)

Kfanarmy
02-26-2015, 02:09 PM
Are you talking about the Men's team or the Women's team? ;) In this case, both.

AIM4excellence
02-26-2015, 02:17 PM
Whoa. Those "at least three future WNBA players" went on to 1) average 3.8 points and 4.2 rebounds, 2) play in 7 games, and 3) play in 1 game. While the cupboard was not bare, it most certainly was not stocked.

Not sure who you're referring to here. The three frosh McCallie inherited: Jasmine Thomas, Krystal Thomas and Karima Christmas are all still in the WNBA. Not sure about Krystal's status. Jasmine got re-signed by the Atlanta Dream after 4 seasons. Karima got signed by the Tulsa Shock for a max contract following her 4 years with the Indiana Fever. Krystal, while being the last pick in the draft, has managed to stay employed and is known as a good post defender. The WNBA coaches know she's not a big post scorer so when she's in the game they don't run the offense through her, thus eliminating the turnovers and missed bunnies that occurred when the ball kept getting passed to her when she played for Duke. Krystal was picked low in the draft due to her offensive ineffectiveness. She stayed in the league due to her defensive prowess that was under-recognized.

Just bringing more facts to the table about the future WNBA players McCallie inherited.

Kedsy
02-26-2015, 03:03 PM
Not sure who you're referring to here. The three frosh McCallie inherited: Jasmine Thomas, Krystal Thomas and Karima Christmas are all still in the WNBA. Not sure about Krystal's status. Jasmine got re-signed by the Atlanta Dream after 4 seasons. Karima got signed by the Tulsa Shock for a max contract following her 4 years with the Indiana Fever. Krystal, while being the last pick in the draft, has managed to stay employed and is known as a good post defender. The WNBA coaches know she's not a big post scorer so when she's in the game they don't run the offense through her, thus eliminating the turnovers and missed bunnies that occurred when the ball kept getting passed to her when she played for Duke. Krystal was picked low in the draft due to her offensive ineffectiveness. She stayed in the league due to her defensive prowess that was under-recognized.

Just bringing more facts to the table about the future WNBA players McCallie inherited.

Coach G recruited these three women, that's true, but Coach P developed them. Especially Karima, who wasn't even a top 10 recruit. Doesn't it say something about Coach P's coaching ability that these three women were able to carve out the careers you outline after playing four years for Coach P?

Putting aside her press conference demeanor and her allegedly abrasive manner, why can't you admit that Coach P might be a pretty good basketball coach?

AIM4excellence
02-26-2015, 08:23 PM
Coach G recruited these three women, that's true, but Coach P developed them. Especially Karima, who wasn't even a top 10 recruit. Doesn't it say something about Coach P's coaching ability that these three women were able to carve out the careers you outline after playing four years for Coach P?

Putting aside her press conference demeanor and her allegedly abrasive manner, why can't you admit that Coach P might be a pretty good basketball coach?

This has to be the most hysterically funny post. Ever. I can't "admit" JPM is a pretty good coach simply because she isn't. Easiest question I've ever been asked. I knew Karima was under-ranked out of high school the first time I saw her play. She did not develop at Duke. She was selected late in the second round, a spot where few even make a squad. She had a bit of a slow start in the WNBA, but has been developing very nicely since then. She played for the coaching great - Lin Dunn - in Indiana. Between that and her overseas opportunities, she played herself into the max contract she got this coming year. Then Jasmine - a top 10 player out of high school, whose play leveled off in college. She has improved her play since, which is why she's still in the league. Finally, Krystal, another top 10 player out of high school. At Duke, she barely looked like a top 30 player due to JPM insisting on running the offense through her, despite the number of times that ended in turnovers and missed bunnies. In the WNBA, it was recognized early on that she's not an offensive juggernaut, but her defense is quite good. So she sets lots of screens on offense, gets offensive putbacks and plays post defense. Point is, in the WNBA, the offense never runs through Krystal, which minimizes her weaknesses on offense. She's not a starter due to lack of offense, but she earns a spot coming off the bench due to her defense.

AIM4excellence
02-26-2015, 08:26 PM
I wonder if the mods could sticky this thread, just so there isn't an identical new thread every single time the women's team loses a game.

Lots of opportunity this season. Wonder when we last lost this many games in a season?

uh_no
02-26-2015, 08:51 PM
Lots of opportunity this season. Wonder when we last lost this many games in a season?

10 losses: 2008
11 losses: 1997
15 losses: 1993

For the record...here are some other teams (the last time they lost X many games)
Uconn:
11 losses: 1993
15 losses: 1986

ND:
12 losses: 2007

Tennessee:
11 losses: 2009
12+: never

Stanford:
11 losses: 2001
12 losses: 1999
14 losses: 1987
15 losses: 1986

duke's number's aren't particularly out of line in this respect.

killerleft
02-26-2015, 09:26 PM
This has to be the most hysterically funny post. Ever. I can't "admit" JPM is a pretty good coach simply because she isn't. Easiest question I've ever been asked. I knew Karima was under-ranked out of high school the first time I saw her play. She did not develop at Duke. She was selected late in the second round, a spot where few even make a squad. She had a bit of a slow start in the WNBA, but has been developing very nicely since then. She played for the coaching great - Lin Dunn - in Indiana. Between that and her overseas opportunities, she played herself into the max contract she got this coming year. Then Jasmine - a top 10 player out of high school, whose play leveled off in college. She has improved her play since, which is why she's still in the league. Finally, Krystal, another top 10 player out of high school. At Duke, she barely looked like a top 30 player due to JPM insisting on running the offense through her, despite the number of times that ended in turnovers and missed bunnies. In the WNBA, it was recognized early on that she's not an offensive juggernaut, but her defense is quite good. So she sets lots of screens on offense, gets offensive putbacks and plays post defense. Point is, in the WNBA, the offense never runs through Krystal, which minimizes her weaknesses on offense. She's not a starter due to lack of offense, but she earns a spot coming off the bench due to her defense.

You are very good at revisioning. And once again, you have insulted someone.