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gumbomoop
02-21-2015, 03:03 PM
..... against cheesy whiners. Really ticked at Heel "fans," in post presser after GT game today. Threw 'em all under the bus. Just saw it on ESPN halftime show of UL game. No link yet, but you'll get a chance to see it sometime today, I think.

Even better, he referenced contrast between cheesy whiners and Crazies. Also used his favorite adjective: friggin.

Troublemaker
02-21-2015, 03:08 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_8Gkb3r7kc

gumbomoop
02-21-2015, 03:12 PM
Thanks ^ to Always Making Trouble.

wilson
02-21-2015, 05:13 PM
"That's not intended to be criticism, but it's criticism." What does that even mean? The fun never stops.

Tripping William
02-21-2015, 05:17 PM
..... against cheesy whiners. Really ticked at Heel "fans," in post presser after GT game today. Threw 'em all under the bus. Just saw it on ESPN halftime show of UL game. No link yet, but you'll get a chance to see it sometime today, I think.

Even better, he referenced contrast between cheesy whiners and Crazies. Also used his favorite adjective: friggin.

He managed a "dadgum" as well. Hilarious 1:40 of Royspeak.

Dukehky
02-21-2015, 06:14 PM
I mean, he's totally right. I don't think this is "classic Roy" in sentiment while it certainly is in language.

weezie
02-21-2015, 06:19 PM
What? Ol'roy practiced the opening four corners play against Paige? Donned the light blue skorts?
Good grief.

ChillinDuke
02-21-2015, 06:22 PM
"That's not intended to be criticism, but it's criticism." What does that even mean? The fun never stops.

HAHAHAHAHA

An amazing line. I mean it's clearly criticism, so why even try to say it's not intended to be criticism. And then the instant negation.

It's just fantastic. I love it so much.

- Chillin

weezie
02-21-2015, 06:24 PM
HAHAHAHAHA

An amazing line. I mean it's clearly criticism, so why even try to say it's not intended to be criticism. And then the instant negation.

It's just fantastic. I love it so much.

- Chillin

It's criticism but really it's tuff love and encouragement.... It's a leg kick to the collective holenation butt.

I just can't stop myself!!!!

dukelifer
02-21-2015, 06:25 PM
I mean, he's totally right. I don't think this is "classic Roy" in sentiment while it certainly is in language.

Roy has had a very tough week. He is so emotional and just cannot stop himself sometimes. That said, his fan base is very critical of him and I am not sure it is all deserved. I am sure that wears on him in a big way. While K looks like he still enjoys coaching- Roy looks like he does not.

MCFinARL
02-21-2015, 06:26 PM
HAHAHAHAHA

An amazing line. I mean it's clearly criticism, so why even try to say it's not intended to be criticism. And then the instant negation.

It's just fantastic. I love it so much.

- Chillin

Yeah, this is a pretty great clip and it's in heavy rotation on ESPN. The criticism line is sort of like "No offense, but..."

Bob Green
02-21-2015, 06:29 PM
Ol' Roy is a boob. Always has been, always will be.

MaxAMillion
02-21-2015, 06:32 PM
..... against cheesy whiners. Really ticked at Heel "fans," in post presser after GT game today. Threw 'em all under the bus. Just saw it on ESPN halftime show of UL game. No link yet, but you'll get a chance to see it sometime today, I think.

Even better, he referenced contrast between cheesy whiners and Crazies. Also used his favorite adjective: friggin.

The guy is just real emotional after the Dean tribute and the win. Of course the crown for the Duke/UNC game is better than UNC/Ga Tech. The crowd on Wednesday was better than today's Clemson crowd. When Duke plays at UNC in March, their crowd will be on their feet the entire game. I think Roy is still upset about the Duke loss.

hurleyfor3
02-21-2015, 06:36 PM
He runs Four Corners, and complains the fans are bored? :confused:

wilko
02-21-2015, 06:56 PM
He runs Four Corners, and complains the fans are bored? :confused:

HA!

In a blowout win he throws the fans under the bus.
Its like he got wind of an NCAA action and he asking to be excused from the table...

roywhite
02-21-2015, 07:22 PM
Roy has had a very tough week. He is so emotional and just cannot stop himself sometimes. That said, his fan base is very critical of him and I am not sure it is all deserved. I am sure that wears on him in a big way. While K looks like he still enjoys coaching- Roy looks like he does not.


Yeah, this is a pretty great clip and it's in heavy rotation on ESPN. The criticism line is sort of like "No offense, but..."


HA!

In a blowout win he throws the fans under the bus.
Its like he got wind of an NCAA action and he asking to be excused from the table...

Yeah, my guess is that Roy is looking at the exits; he's not a happy guy lately, and the NCAA hammer may drop soon. The ESPN studio guys, especially Seth Greenberg and also Reece Davis, are coming down hard on his latest whine. Not good to tick off your own fans, etc.

Roy won't go quietly, though; there's more entertainment ahead. Dean was 66 when he announced his retirement; Roy will be 65 later this year; he may feel like he's reached an acceptable stopping point.

hudlow
02-21-2015, 07:24 PM
Seth Greenburg gave Roy Hell for what he said.

Of course JWill defended Roy.

hud

MartyClark
02-21-2015, 07:32 PM
Ol' Roy is a boob. Always has been, always will be.

He doesn't seem to have good situational awareness. The Carolina fans are faithful and have supported this program, in all circumstances, for decades. Roy is asking them to show emotion they don't feel in a particular game. Or maybe to show their emotion in a different way than they feel under the circumstances.

It's kind of like a mediocre band asking the crowd to stand and clap their hands when the crowd doesn't feel it. I'm a cranky old guy who doesn't want anyone telling me how to act or show my support at a game, concert, or other event.

The IC crowd wants to blame the seating and the "blue hairs" who have the good seats. If I was a Carolina blue hair, I'd tell Roy where he could put his advice.

FerryFor50
02-21-2015, 07:36 PM
1) he was right. Those fans rarely "bring it" for any team but Duke.
2) angering the fans? Yea they were angrier about what happened last game. And we all know how many UNC fans feel about Roy.
3) while he has right in general it's hard to fault the fans getting up for a game that was never really in doubt.
4) still hilarious though. Gotta love the fake southern charm of "no offense but..."

TKG
02-21-2015, 07:39 PM
Bless his precious little heart.... Roy's a nimrod.......

Dukehky
02-21-2015, 07:45 PM
Seth Greenburg gave Roy Hell for what he said.

Of course JWill defended Roy.

hud

Jay came from the position of a player who would love to see a coach try and get you all the help you need out on the court. I have no problem with what Roy said about the crowd today. K threatens to sell student's seats to iron dukes all the time, he doesn't do it in PC's, but if it was bad enough he would.

Also, to say that the game was never in doubt and GT isn't a big opponent, they had lost 4/5, they HAD to have that win, you'd think the crowd would be aware of that.

Again, the thing I hate most about UNC basketball is the fans. They are horrid when they do well, and horrible fans when they aren't doing so well. They don't deserve any good things.

WiJoe
02-21-2015, 07:47 PM
What does he have against banshees? There's no pleasing this guy.

AIRFORCEDUKIE
02-21-2015, 08:04 PM
Greenberg called UNC a wine and cheese crowd on air, he is now forgiven for the crying he and his family did after the Duke game.

hudlow
02-21-2015, 08:17 PM
Jay came from the position of a player who would love to see a coach try and get you all the help you need out on the court. I have no problem with what Roy said about the crowd today. K threatens to sell student's seats to iron dukes all the time, he doesn't do it in PC's, but if it was bad enough he would.

Also, to say that the game was never in doubt and GT isn't a big opponent, they had lost 4/5, they HAD to have that win, you'd think the crowd would be aware of that.

Again, the thing I hate most about UNC basketball is the fans. They are horrid when they do well, and horrible fans when they aren't doing so well. They don't deserve any good things.


I know Roy is not known for tempering his thoughts, but I do believe, since this was a memorial to Coach Smith, I would have waited for another game to berate the fans.

hud

Tripping William
02-21-2015, 08:18 PM
I know Roy is not known for tempering his thoughts, but I do believe, since this was a memorial to Coach Smith, I would have waited for another game to berate the fans.

hud

Except, what's funny (at least to me), is that he was berating the fans, in part at least, because of their failure to recognize his obvious tribute to Coach Smith.

jv001
02-21-2015, 08:21 PM
I know Roy is not known for tempering his thoughts, but I do believe, since this was a memorial to Coach Smith, I would have waited for another game to berate the fans.

hud

I agree. Roy opens his big mouth and says some stupid things. It seems to me that old roy was more upset because they didn't recognize they were trying to run the old four corners offense. Well, they didn't actually run the four corners, I think they shot the ball with way too much time on the clock. Dean would have not shot that soon. GoDuke!

calvindog
02-21-2015, 08:32 PM
HA!

In a blowout win he throws the fans under the bus.
Its like he got wind of an NCAA action and he asking to be excused from the table...

Can someone explain to me why Syracuse announced a unilateral ban on postseason play this year for conduct a fraction as bad as what UNC did -- and UNC is basically ignoring the NCAA in comparison?

uh_no
02-21-2015, 08:33 PM
Can someone explain to me why Syracuse announced a unilateral ban on postseason play this year for conduct a fraction as bad as what UNC did -- and UNC is basically ignoring the NCAA in comparison?

because at UNC it was an academic issue :)

hudlow
02-21-2015, 08:35 PM
I agree. Roy opens his big mouth and says some stupid things. It seems to me that old roy was more upset because they didn't recognize they were trying to run the old four corners offense. Well, they didn't actually run the four corners, I think they shot the ball with way too much time on the clock. Dean would have not shot that soon. GoDuke!


Running "4 corners" against a zone is tough.

hud

Kimist
02-21-2015, 08:39 PM
I agree. Roy opens his big mouth and says some stupid things. It seems to me that old roy was more upset because they didn't recognize they were trying to run the old four corners offense. Well, they didn't actually run the four corners, I think they shot the ball with way too much time on the clock. Dean would have not shot that soon. GoDuke!

AGREED!!

Oh yes: I was in attendance at a certain Duke/unc basketball game where the halftime score was 7-0. You can guess who was scoreless. . .

While I've mellowed a bit over the years, and I do respectfully recognize the overall contributions to college basketball made by DES, the very last thing I would ever choose to "honor" him for is the four corners stall ball.

k

Henderson
02-21-2015, 08:58 PM
I was at a comedy club in NYC some years back, and a comedian onstage wasn't doing well. So he started berating the crowd for not laughing at his jokes. That was pretty sad, and people squirmed uncomfortably. Then he shouted toward stage left: "Why do you put these f'ing geriatric s**ts right up front?" A table of 6 or 7 right up front stood up and walked out. It was not a good moment for the comic.

But back to Roy's rant: Every coach in the country competing with Roy for recruits will be sending this out.

Gettin' mighty crowded under that daggum bus.

Dr. Rosenrosen
02-21-2015, 09:09 PM
You'd think he could have honored DES with a less horrible jacket. Good god.

Also, his little eye rubbing moment after the first play was such a classic look-at-me, I'm Roy Williams, I have it so tough moment.

Newton_14
02-21-2015, 09:23 PM
You'd think he could have honored DES with a less horrible jacket. Good god.

Also, his little eye rubbing moment after the first play was such a classic look-at-me, I'm Roy Williams, I have it so tough moment.

Totally agree. If there has ever been a bigger narcissist, I don't want to meet them. I don't even recall a college coach who spent more time talking about himself in pressers than Ol Roy. It's mind boggling. It's about him, and how he is feeling 24/7 year round. The guy is a buffoon. It's like he is both so ashamed of where he come from, combined with so proud of where he made it to, that he is consumed by it all. Has anyone ever clue'd him in that he is not the first ever, and only, rags to riches story?

gumbomoop
02-21-2015, 09:41 PM
I'm wondering whether Roy was frustrated by the fact that the tribute to Dean on Wed eve was, in retrospect, more becoming, more meaningful, more appropriate to what Dean's many devotees would see as his humility than was the flat reception by the cheesy whiners of Roy's own attempted tribute.

As the OP here, I posted about Roy's going off on the Dean Dome crowd, thinking it newsworthy, not to mention cringeworthy. Now, trying to figure out what was really behind his outburst -- maybe something more than Roy being Roy? -- I begin to feel a little sorry for him.

I speculate that he was genuinely touched by the CIS tribute that, I believe I heard Roy explain, was Krzyzewski's idea. And then his own tribute, perhaps not quite so well planned, a little too obscure for the cheesers, didn't feel right, didn't feel good, didn't honor Dean the way, geez, Dean was honored by the arch-enemies. A very important moment for Roy personally, and it didn't work. He loves Dean, and it didn't work.

Beyond disappointing. Annoying, galling, humiliating. He's steaming the whole game today, suppressing it. Roy's a very emotional guy, understandably unsteady for several reasons just now. He babbles about not-criticism that is criticism. Downhill.

He can't help being a huckster, which is hilarious. But I kind of hope he gets out very soon, before it ends very badly. Maybe too late, as he's intermittently making of himself a spectacle. When he's too much the angry clown, it's worrying. Isn't it?

Duke95
02-21-2015, 09:46 PM
If there's one person who can unite UNC and Duke fans, it's Roy Williams. Neither side likes him.

Roy Williams is nowhere near as bad a coach as the UNC fans deserve.

MChambers
02-21-2015, 09:59 PM
AGREED!!

Oh yes: I was in attendance at a certain Duke/unc basketball game where the halftime score was 7-0. You can guess who was scoreless. . .

While I've mellowed a bit over the years, and I do respectfully recognize the overall contributions to college basketball made by DES, the very last thing I would ever choose to "honor" him for is the four corners stall ball.

k

I thought it was a little ironic to honor Dean with the four corners. That offense was responsible for the shot clock.

OldPhiKap
02-21-2015, 10:19 PM
I'm wondering whether Roy was frustrated by the fact that the tribute to Dean on Wed eve was, in retrospect, more becoming, more meaningful, more appropriate to what Dean's many devotees would see as his humility than was the flat reception by the cheesy whiners of Roy's own attempted tribute.

As the OP here, I posted about Roy's going off on the Dean Dome crowd, thinking it newsworthy, not to mention cringeworthy. Now, trying to figure out what was really behind his outburst -- maybe something more than Roy being Roy? -- I begin to feel a little sorry for him.

I speculate that he was genuinely touched by the CIS tribute that, I believe I heard Roy explain, was Krzyzewski's idea. And then his own tribute, perhaps not quite so well planned, a little too obscure for the cheesers, didn't feel right, didn't feel good, didn't honor Dean the way, geez, Dean was honored by the arch-enemies. A very important moment for Roy personally, and it didn't work. He loves Dean, and it didn't work.

Beyond disappointing. Annoying, galling, humiliating. He's steaming the whole game today, suppressing it. Roy's a very emotional guy, understandably unsteady for several reasons just now. He babbles about not-criticism that is criticism. Downhill.

He can't help being a huckster, which is hilarious. But I kind of hope he gets out very soon, before it ends very badly. Maybe too late, as he's intermittently making of himself a spectacle. When he's too much the angry clown, it's worrying. Isn't it?

Kind of like honoring Monty Python by eating Spam. Yeah, I see how you got there but -- there's a reason why folks don't look upon it with fond remembrance.

My favorite thing about the Four Corners is that you can't do it anymore.

Duke95
02-21-2015, 10:26 PM
I thought it was a little ironic to honor Dean with the four corners. That offense was responsible for the shot clock.

The four corners wasn't offense. It was offensive.

It represented the worst in basketball. It was also brilliant. For those of you who are students of history, you might remember that this is how Rome eventually won the 2nd Punic War and defeated Hannibal. Their general Quintus Fabius Maximus, named "The Delayer", refused to face the Carthaginian army in full combat until Rome had recovered from her previous disastrous defeats. Only then, Scipio was able to face Hannibal and defeat him.

The delaying tactic has been well-used in history.

Duke76
02-21-2015, 10:48 PM
I'm wondering whether Roy was frustrated by the fact that the tribute to Dean on Wed eve was, in retrospect, more becoming, more meaningful, more appropriate to what Dean's many devotees would see as his humility than was the flat reception by the cheesy whiners of Roy's own attempted tribute.

As the OP here, I posted about Roy's going off on the Dean Dome crowd, thinking it newsworthy, not to mention cringeworthy. Now, trying to figure out what was really behind his outburst -- maybe something more than Roy being Roy? -- I begin to feel a little sorry for him.

I speculate that he was genuinely touched by the CIS tribute that, I believe I heard Roy explain, was Krzyzewski's idea. And then his own tribute, perhaps not quite so well planned, a little too obscure for the cheesers, didn't feel right, didn't feel good, didn't honor Dean the way, geez, Dean was honored by the arch-enemies. A very important moment for Roy personally, and it didn't work. He loves Dean, and it didn't work.

Beyond disappointing. Annoying, galling, humiliating. He's steaming the whole game today, suppressing it. Roy's a very emotional guy, understandably unsteady for several reasons just now. He babbles about not-criticism that is criticism. Downhill.

He can't help being a huckster, which is hilarious. But I kind of hope he gets out very soon, before it ends very badly. Maybe too late, as he's intermittently making of himself a spectacle. When he's too much the angry clown, it's worrying. Isn't it?

I'd say that is pretty spot on....doubt we'll hear from Wheat on this topic

Ima Facultiwyfe
02-21-2015, 11:00 PM
Roy has never been a captain last to leave a sinking ship so he'll be taking a leap sooner than later. I'll hate to see him go, bless his clueless heart. He's been so much fun!

Love, Ima

uh_no
02-22-2015, 01:02 AM
Also, his little eye rubbing moment after the first play was such a classic look-at-me, I'm Roy Williams,

Isn't that pretty much the exact thing carolina fans said about K wearing a carolina tie to dean's funeral?

let's be better than that.

I don't know what was genuine and what wasn't, but i thought honoring one of the game's greats by running the offense which revolutionized the game (by it's implementation and subsequent nerf-ing by the shot clock) was a nice gesture.

Perhaps Roy isn't always the most tactfully individual in his words and demeanor, but let's be respectful and let him honor dean how he sees fit. are people here SERIOUSLY insinuating that one school's tribute is "better" than another's? remember what we're talking about here, people....a great man who died and is being remembered...not an audition for american idol where we get to pick the best one.

roywhite
02-22-2015, 01:41 AM
Isn't that pretty much the exact thing carolina fans said about K wearing a carolina tie to dean's funeral?

let's be better than that.

I don't know what was genuine and what wasn't, but i thought honoring one of the game's greats by running the offense which revolutionized the game (by it's implementation and subsequent nerf-ing by the shot clock) was a nice gesture.

Perhaps Roy isn't always the most tactfully individual in his words and demeanor, but let's be respectful and let him honor dean how he sees fit. are people here SERIOUSLY insinuating that one school's tribute is "better" than another's? remember what we're talking about here, people....a great man who died and is being remembered...not an audition for american idol where we get to pick the best one.

I don't have any gripe with Roy's tribute to Dean Smith; the four-corner reprise was a very nice touch, and I don't have any problem with Roy being emotional about his late mentor.

The story here is his lashing out at the fans; it seemed strange and likely off-putting to many UNC fans. Just don't see a successful head coach take off like that on his own fans. Dean Smith, for example, never did any such thing. Roy seems on the edge these days; hard to tell what will set him off next.

uh_no
02-22-2015, 02:55 AM
The story here is his lashing out at the fans; it seemed strange and likely off-putting to many UNC fans. Just don't see a successful head coach take off like that on his own fans. Dean Smith, for example, never did any such thing. Roy seems on the edge these days; hard to tell what will set him off next.

coach K has chided fans at times, threatening to move the student section, or sell student seats (one of which has understandably happened), but it was never in a degrading manner, always encouraging to be better.

this was taking it out on the guys that pay the big bucks though...that's a first class ticket to getting yourself in some big trouble.

MarkD83
02-22-2015, 03:06 AM
coach K has chided fans at times, threatening to move the student section, or sell student seats (one of which has understandably happened), but it was never in a degrading manner, always encouraging to be better.

this was taking it out on the guys that pay the big bucks though...that's a first class ticket to getting yourself in some big trouble.

Of course Roy may already know he is in trouble (loss to Duke, pending issues with SACS and NCAA). Perhaps this is the start of him telling folks off who he wanted to tell off for some time.

COCO
02-22-2015, 06:41 AM
I always appreciate men who can cry. I liked seeing Roy express his emotions and it made me like him a little bit. As far as his chastising the fans, it is an acknowledgement that they are all in this together. And I loved seeing the attempt at four corners. I always thought it was really easy to do. Now I know that it isn't.

OldPhiKap
02-22-2015, 07:42 AM
Isn't that pretty much the exact thing carolina fans said about K wearing a carolina tie to dean's funeral?

let's be better than that.

I don't know what was genuine and what wasn't, but i thought honoring one of the game's greats by running the offense which revolutionized the game (by it's implementation and subsequent nerf-ing by the shot clock) was a nice gesture.

Perhaps Roy isn't always the most tactfully individual in his words and demeanor, but let's be respectful and let him honor dean how he sees fit. are people here SERIOUSLY insinuating that one school's tribute is "better" than another's? remember what we're talking about here, people....a great man who died and is being remembered...not an audition for american idol where we get to pick the best one.

I agree with all of this. Roy is the one, though, who was complaining that the crowd did not go wild as he expected when they did it.

In any regard -- gotta wonder how long Roy is going to stay. I know he never quits, etc., but he is pretty far from his happy place right now and the NCAA will presumably do something, sometime.

royalblue
02-22-2015, 07:43 AM
Roy is very emotional and wants people to be more sensitive we have heard it for years. The thing that really sets Roy apart are his responses that are not thought out or sensitive.
I don't give a sh#% about Carolina right now
The Haiti comment
Yesterday's rant
All the throwing under the bus that he does

Roy must be good at doing a ship in the bottle because he has thrown more people under a bus than I ever thought would fit

He could have said a snide comment to honor Dean as Dean was not near as deliberate with his comments as he was with his offense.

Troublemaker
02-22-2015, 07:43 AM
I'm wondering whether Roy was frustrated by the fact that the tribute to Dean on Wed eve was, in retrospect, more becoming, more meaningful, more appropriate to what Dean's many devotees would see as his humility than was the flat reception by the cheesy whiners of Roy's own attempted tribute.

As the OP here, I posted about Roy's going off on the Dean Dome crowd, thinking it newsworthy, not to mention cringeworthy. Now, trying to figure out what was really behind his outburst -- maybe something more than Roy being Roy? -- I begin to feel a little sorry for him.

I speculate that he was genuinely touched by the CIS tribute that, I believe I heard Roy explain, was Krzyzewski's idea. And then his own tribute, perhaps not quite so well planned, a little too obscure for the cheesers, didn't feel right, didn't feel good, didn't honor Dean the way, geez, Dean was honored by the arch-enemies. A very important moment for Roy personally, and it didn't work. He loves Dean, and it didn't work.

Beyond disappointing. Annoying, galling, humiliating. He's steaming the whole game today, suppressing it. Roy's a very emotional guy, understandably unsteady for several reasons just now. He babbles about not-criticism that is criticism. Downhill.

He can't help being a huckster, which is hilarious. But I kind of hope he gets out very soon, before it ends very badly. Maybe too late, as he's intermittently making of himself a spectacle. When he's too much the angry clown, it's worrying. Isn't it?

Gumbo - this is a hilarious interpretation of Roy's psyche in the past few days. He indeed did say that the Cameron tribute was Coach K's idea, and furthermore, Roy stated that Coach K's idea was better than Roy's, the two coaches having discussed how to honor Dean in the days leading up to the Duke-UNC game. So now, using your interpretation of things, I'm smiling at the thought of Roy, in the days leading up to the game, trying to convince Coach K to allow UNC in Four Corners to score on Duke on the first possession of the game. Coach K had to politely decline several times, eventually suggesting the Cameron tribute that went down instead. "Uh, Roy, how about we do this instead?"

oldnavy
02-22-2015, 07:53 AM
coach K has chided fans at times, threatening to move the student section, or sell student seats (one of which has understandably happened), but it was never in a degrading manner, always encouraging to be better.

this was taking it out on the guys that pay the big bucks though...that's a first class ticket to getting yourself in some big trouble.

I think Roy was upset that his tribute or "UNC's" tribute to Dean fell a little flat.

The problem with the tribute was that it happened so fast and so early in the game. Hard to really get into a tribute that lasts about 5 seconds.

Also, the DD crowd appears to be a late arriving crowd, and it could be that most of the older fans who would be most likely to appreciate the gesture were not even seated.

Roy's not having a great time this year and it's no secret how he feels about the fans... it will be interesting to see how he chooses to leave UNC...

Would anyone be surprised if Roy left UNC in a bind when he retires by not giving much notice and doing it later (Much like Dean did to force Gut's hire)?

moonpie23
02-22-2015, 08:03 AM
I thought it was a little ironic to honor Dean with the four corners. That offense was responsible for the shot clock.

i'm with you on this..... that chickencrap style of play isn't really worth "honoring".....

roy, running it for the 30 seconds he COULD run it for pointed out what a poor slice of BB that was....


Ol Roy is getting his crowd ready for the 7th...

Wheat/"/"/"
02-22-2015, 09:06 AM
Just had a chance to read this thread...

How about it was just something so simple as a coach calling out a lame crowd?

That happens all the time. You guys are always pointing out how lame the crowd can be in the Dean Dome, and you've never seen me disagree, but then when Roy agrees with you and gets on them, you chastise him? The Roy bashing has no limits.

The 4 corners thing was very personal to him, he said. At the final pregame practice, he took the team off the court and waited until everybody left because he didn't want it to get out on Twitter or whatever, and then came back out to run through it. He said he wanted it to be personal, from the TEAM to coach Smith.

He's an emotional guy that has a weak verbal filter. The tribute didn't get recognized as planned because it happened so fast. He acknowledged that, but then his filter failed him...and I like that. Roy is imperfect but Roy is real.

He thinks of the crowd as part of the team, and he wanted to see the crowd be part of the team in that special moment for him to recognize coach Smith...and then he didn't see anything like strong support for the whole game.

He said what many people know is true. UNC crowds need to be better teammates.

He was just frustrated, and I don't blame him.

alteran
02-22-2015, 09:19 AM
Can someone explain to me why Syracuse announced a unilateral ban on postseason play this year for conduct a fraction as bad as what UNC did -- and UNC is basically ignoring the NCAA in comparison?

Because some institutions have no shame.

Ggallagher
02-22-2015, 09:38 AM
I think we need to cut Coach William's some slack on getting emotional and showing his feelings on this issue. Don't forget that for more than ten years, he watched and sheltered Coach Smith as he declined. That by itself had to be terribly stressful and saddening. Additionally Roy's sister died with the same issues, and I understand that Coach Guthridge has the same problem now. Roy's always been an open, emotional person. I know I couldn't keep all that bottled up inside me, and it wouldn't be healthy if I could.

Dr. Rosenrosen
02-22-2015, 09:41 AM
Just had a chance to read this thread...

How about it was just something so simple as a coach calling out a lame crowd?

That happens all the time. You guys are always pointing out how lame the crowd can be in the Dean Dome, and you've never seen me disagree, but then when Roy agrees with you and gets on them, you chastise him? The Roy bashing has no limits.

The 4 corners thing was very personal to him, he said. At the final pregame practice, he took the team off the court and waited until everybody left because he didn't want it to get out on Twitter or whatever, and then came back out to run through it. He said he wanted it to be personal, from the TEAM to coach Smith.

He's an emotional guy that has a weak verbal filter. The tribute didn't get recognized as planned because it happened so fast. He acknowledged that, but then his filter failed him...and I like that. Roy is imperfect but Roy is real.

He thinks of the crowd as part of the team, and he wanted to see the crowd be part of the team in that special moment for him to recognize coach Smith...and then he didn't see anything like strong support for the whole game.

He said what many people know is true. UNC crowds need to be better teammates.

He was just frustrated, and I don't blame him.
It's not that he called them out. It's how he called them out. He said he wished they had been savvy enough to understand the 4 corners reference being played out in front them... That sounds like code for "you're stupid."

Faustus
02-22-2015, 09:49 AM
I wish Roy had run the 4 corners yesterday until called for a 35 second violation. That would have been more appropriate.

Dr. Rosenrosen
02-22-2015, 09:54 AM
Isn't that pretty much the exact thing carolina fans said about K wearing a carolina tie to dean's funeral?

let's be better than that.

I don't know what was genuine and what wasn't, but i thought honoring one of the game's greats by running the offense which revolutionized the game (by it's implementation and subsequent nerf-ing by the shot clock) was a nice gesture.

Perhaps Roy isn't always the most tactfully individual in his words and demeanor, but let's be respectful and let him honor dean how he sees fit. are people here SERIOUSLY insinuating that one school's tribute is "better" than another's? remember what we're talking about here, people....a great man who died and is being remembered...not an audition for american idol where we get to pick the best one.
No. I think they said he shouldn't be there. That it wasn't right and a flagrant attempt at self promotion.

I can't stand the whole "let's be better than that" commentary. I didn't wish him or Dean or anyone else any ill will. I'm saying Roy looked like we was throwing himself another little public pity party. It looked to me (IN MY OPINION) like he was acting out a scene and drawing the focus to himself, not the man they were trying to pay tribute to. IN MY OPINION.

budwom
02-22-2015, 10:10 AM
Perhaps this is a situation where Occam's Razor applies, and Ol' Roy is simply a self absorbed jackass.

Henderson
02-22-2015, 11:47 AM
Perhaps this is a situation where Occam's Razor applies, and Ol' Roy is simply a self absorbed jackass.

I think that's too harsh. He's just 5 or 10 degrees off center.

I think his comments were motivated by his disappointment in the response to his four corners tribute. He planned this for two weeks, and it kind of flopped with the fans because it was too subtle. Half the fans didn't get it, and for the other half it went by too quickly. The thing he'd been planning as His Great Tribute didn't go over, whereas the tributes by Duke and Pitt were well-received by the fans of other teams. Ouch.

For him it must have been the equivalent of spending all day cooking a special dinner for a lover only to find her ignoring the food and texting during the meal. His mistake was cooking an unappetizing meal and then complaining she didn't appreciate it.

But there is a larger Dean Dome issue he's frustrated with, and it can't be changed. The Dean Dome was hailed as having been built without state funds. But that meant selling the best seats -- for life plus one generation -- to old rich people. That demographic often just likes to sit and watch, not get rowdy for the team. And because those seats are contractually tied to those fans for two generations, it's not easy to change. So there's that.

ChillinDuke
02-22-2015, 11:51 AM
And what if they ran the four corners and it resulted in a poor possession?

Now, the game was never in doubt. But that seems a decent risk to take when you've lost 4 of 5 in the middle of February.

Regardless of his post game presser, I think I would have started my team in it, passed it around for 20 seconds, then reset the offense for a real play in the last 15 seconds.

- Chillin

Trinity09
02-22-2015, 12:01 PM
Roy is a petty man who rarely thinks before he speaks. Contrast these comments with the tactful, measured demeanor K presents to the media. When was the last time K went off the rails for a sentence, let alone an entire press conference?

Gotta give him some respect for running the Four Corners, though. The timing was a little odd--Coach McClendon has been dead for more than 15 years--but the gesture was poignant nonetheless.

Henderson
02-22-2015, 12:03 PM
And what if they ran the four corners and it resulted in a poor possession?

Now, the game was never in doubt. But that seems a decent risk to take when you've lost 4 of 5 in the middle of February.

Regardless of his post game presser, I think I would have started my team in it, passed it around for 20 seconds, then reset the offense for a real play in the last 15 seconds.

Roy and the team were very happy that they scored on that possession. Otherwise, it really would have been a flop. Marcus Paige said after the game that he was never as nervous running a play and was relieved it turned out.

The tribute might have worked better if it had been for several possessions. Or (as Chillin') suggests, at least for longer than 8 seconds so the crowd could "get it." But either of those ideas could have flopped if UNC-CH had come up dry.

snowdenscold
02-22-2015, 12:07 PM
Roy and the team were very happy that they scored on that possession. Otherwise, it really would have been a flop. Marcus Paige said after the game that he was never as nervous running a play and was relieved it turned out.

The tribute might have worked better if it had been for several possessions. Or (as Chillin') suggests, at least for longer than 8 seconds so the crowd could "get it." But either of those ideas could have flopped if UNC-CH had come up dry.

Why didn't he go back to it for the last several minutes of the game after the outcome was certain?

Bob Green
02-22-2015, 12:08 PM
Marcus Paige said after the game that he was never as nervous running a play and was relieved it turned out.

One thing we all learnt yesterday is Marcus Paige is not the second coming of Phil Ford. The crowd might have gotten the tribute if Paige hadn't immediately picked up his dribble, something the four corners point guard is never suppose to do.

TKG
02-22-2015, 12:16 PM
I find it interesting that the Carolina crowd did not "get it" but every sportscaster and highlight narrator "got it". Those steeped in the mythology of Dean were unable to pick up on the call for the 4-corners but ESPN et al zeroed in on it instantly. Perhaps Carolina's SID should have focused more attention on the Carolina family.

hudlow
02-22-2015, 12:17 PM
The biggest mistake was Ol' Roy forgot to tell Ga. Tech they were supposed to play man-to-man....

hud

gumbomoop
02-22-2015, 12:20 PM
How about it was just something so simple as a coach calling out a lame crowd?

The 4 corners thing was very personal to him, he said. At the final pregame practice, he took the team off the court and waited until everybody left because he didn't want it to get out on Twitter or whatever, and then came back out to run through it. He said he wanted it to be personal, from the TEAM to coach Smith.

He's an emotional guy that has a weak verbal filter. The tribute didn't get recognized as planned because it happened so fast. He acknowledged that, but then his filter failed him...and I like that. Roy is imperfect but Roy is real.

He thinks of the crowd as part of the team, and he wanted to see the crowd be part of the team in that special moment for him to recognize coach Smith...

I don't disagree with most of what you say here, save for the fact that most of what you say involves factors that are not "so simple as a coach calling out a lame crowd." And those factors are all related to what you yourself accurately note was a "special moment for him to recognize coach Smith." He was unusually, even for him, upset because this was an inordinately special moment that didn't work. Complicated, not simple, emotional stuff was in play here.

If you don't think there's even a plausible case to be made for thinking he's intermittently but invariably moving toward some dangerous ground here, ok. I've no idea whether the NCAA will levy sanctions that will harm his legacy. But if he and his program are fortunate enough to skate, then I could see him staying one more season, in hopes that what will be a talented, deep, and veteran team can win it all in 2015-16. If he's lucky enough to be UNC's coach next season, he should leave at its conclusion, no matter how it ends. And I'd bet some, many, of his own closest acquaintances hope that's how it plays out.

BD80
02-22-2015, 12:55 PM
ol' roy is starting to sound like Col. Nathan R. Jessup from "A Few Good Men" on the stand just as the interrogation goes south on him. I start to feel sorry for him, almost, and then I remember he is getting paid MILLIONS of dollars for this exact reason: coaching unc basketball is a high-profile, high pressure job. Part of the deal is representing the university in front of the media and stroking the fan-base that donate money and buy tar heel brand items. I wouldn't give him high marks for yesterday's job performance.

Amusing thought: isn't there a limitation on practice time with the coaches? Did ol' roy forego practice on areas that could actually improve his team to work on an antiquated scheme that won't be used again? Or did ol' roy violate NCAA rules by working EXTRA with the starters to teach them the 4-corners?

throatybeard
02-22-2015, 01:00 PM
He runs Four Corners, and complains the fans are bored? :confused:

I'll never understand this "tribute" as long as I live. Honoring Dean Smith by playing chicken with the ball is like honoring Richard Nixon by...giving tours of the Watergate Hotel. They guy did some great stuff--eventually getting us out of Vietnam, the EPA, opening up to China. Dean Smith did some great stuff too. So you're going to honor him by re-enacting an offense so boring and vile that the NCAA had to change the rules of the game to prevent it?

budwom
02-22-2015, 01:03 PM
When one assesses ol' roy, one needs to (as they say at Big Dance Time) look at the whole body of work.

Roy's perpetual woe is me, looks what's happening to me, I'm as beleaguered as the Haitian earthquake victims narcissistic schtick, I believe constitutes
a very strong case for him simply being a jackass. I certainly don't base this opinion simply on yesterday's woeful press conference.

Wheat/"/"/"
02-22-2015, 01:18 PM
If you don't think there's even a plausible case to be made for thinking he's intermittently but invariably moving toward some dangerous ground here, ok.


When you're over 60 your attitude changes. I don't think Roy cares if he's on dangerous ground with some fans about calling out the crowd, he'll call it like he sees it and to heck with the consequences. He's a hall of famer and seems to feel strong about his coaching position tenure at UNC. I think he stays as long as he wants to.

Henderson
02-22-2015, 01:21 PM
When one assesses ol' roy, one needs to (as they say at Big Dance Time) look at the whole body of work.

Roy's perpetual woe is me, looks what's happening to me, I'm as beleaguered as the Haitian earthquake victims narcissistic schtick, I believe constitutes
a very strong case for him simply being a jackass. I certainly don't base this opinion simply on yesterday's woeful press conference.

Is tone-deaf, poor at developing players, old and tired, poor at Xs and Os, and hillbilly-whiny the same as being a jackass?

howardlander
02-22-2015, 01:23 PM
I think he stays as long as he wants to.

As a UNC grad (MSCS, 1988) and a current employee at UNC, I sincerely hope this is not true. The cheating scandal is very real, and if there is no accountability for Williams, then the NCAA might as well disband.

Howard

OldPhiKap
02-22-2015, 01:24 PM
Agree, Roy can stay as long as he wants. But I think there is a growing view that retirement would not be a bad thing for UNC from the fan base. Thank him for what he did, go try to get Brad Stevens or Shaka Smart.

(Note: not saying either would do better than Roy. But I think a sizable group would be happy to try it).

OldPhiKap
02-22-2015, 01:25 PM
Is tone-deaf, poor at developing players, old and tired, poor at Xs and Os, and hillbilly-whiny the same as being a jackass?

Potayto, potahto.

Henderson
02-22-2015, 01:30 PM
Agree, Roy can stay as long as he wants.

I agree, but I'd point out that what Roy "wants" will be greatly influenced by what the UNC-CH admins and fans want too. If things tip in a bad way (as seems to be the course), Roy may not "want" to continue.

They won't fire him, but he may find retirement a better expression of what he "wants" if he loses too much support.

wilson
02-22-2015, 01:34 PM
I'll never understand this "tribute" as long as I live. Honoring Dean Smith by playing chicken with the ball is like honoring Richard Nixon by...giving tours of the Watergate Hotel. They guy did some great stuff--eventually getting us out of Vietnam, the EPA, opening up to China. Dean Smith did some great stuff too. So you're going to honor him by re-enacting an offense so boring and vile that the NCAA had to change the rules of the game to prevent it?AMEN to this. I recognize that Dean was a great teacher of the game, and that there were many aspects of his tactical instruction and the building of his program that were indeed innovative. But I cannot for the life of me understand why by far the most frequently cited example of his "innovation" is an offense that was so antithetical to competition and sportsmanship that it brought about rule changes. That's not innovation; it's forcing everyone's hand by pissing on sport.

grad_devil
02-22-2015, 01:34 PM
...
Amusing thought: isn't there a limitation on practice time with the coaches? Did ol' roy forego practice on areas that could actually improve his team to work on an antiquated scheme that won't be used again? Or did ol' roy violate NCAA rules by working EXTRA with the starters to teach them the 4-corners?
...


Max of 4 hours/day, 20 hours/week, with one day off per week. Games count as 3 hours, regardless.

weezie
02-22-2015, 01:34 PM
...go try to get....Shaka Smart.


I get a bit queasy at the thought of Smart as head coach over there. It really scares me...
I prefer he go to georgetown. Soon.

Reilly
02-22-2015, 01:38 PM
Potayto, potahto.

When I was growing up and where I grew up, we would've killed for a potato -- I mean, literally friggin' killed for one. To think about a potato -- washed down with some Co-Cola -- Roy Williams would've been one happy boy if Roy Williams could've washed down a potato with some Co-Cola ... in Asheville, they even had fried potatoes, we heard tell, I mean, literally fried, in oil or car grease or something ... Will Graves, he does a funny thing where he hollows out a potato and stuffs some of the rough from the golf course into it and lights it on fire ... hey, hey, ol' Will ... I wish our fans were savvy enough to understand Will's science experiments ... y'know, if you pour Co-Cola on a car battery, it'll light the potato on fire, just like Will does ... and if you stuff a lit potato into the chamber of my bb gun, then I'll be able to burn some of them Wulfpack butts ... make 'em feel something ... or something ...

Henderson
02-22-2015, 01:42 PM
When I was growing up and where I grew up, we would've killed for a potato -- I mean, literally friggin' killed for one. To think about a potato -- washed down with some Co-Cola -- Roy Williams would've been one happy boy if Roy Williams could've washed down a potato with some Co-Cola ... in Asheville, they even had fried potatoes, we heard tell, I mean, literally fried, in oil or car grease or something ... Will Graves, he does a funny thing where he hollows out a potato and stuffs some of the rough from the golf course into it and lights it on fire ... hey, hey, ol' Will ... I wish our fans were savvy enough to understand Will's science experiments ... y'know, if you pour Co-Cola on a car battery, it'll light the potato on fire, just like Will does ... and if you stuff a lit potato into the chamber of my bb gun, then I'll be able to burn some of them Wulfpack butts ... make 'em feel something ... or something ...

Someone's been reading James Joyce a bit too much. :cool:

Dr. Rosenrosen
02-22-2015, 01:44 PM
As a UNC grad (MSCS, 1988) and a current employee at UNC, I sincerely hope this is not true. The cheating scandal is very real, and if there is no accountability for Williams, then the NCAA might as well disband.

Howard
If there were more UNC fans (and just a few key administrators) who thought like you, the whole thing might have been over and done a long time ago.

OldPhiKap
02-22-2015, 01:46 PM
Someone's been reading James Joyce a bit too much. :cool:

Or watching Python:

http://youtu.be/Xe1a1wHxTyo

Dr. Rosenrosen
02-22-2015, 01:48 PM
AMEN to this. I recognize that Dean was a great teacher of the game, and that there were many aspects of his tactical instruction and the building of his program that were indeed innovative. But I cannot for the life of me understand why by far the most frequently cited example of his "innovation" is an offense that was so antithetical to competition and sportsmanship that it brought about rule changes. That's not innovation; it's forcing everyone's hand by pissing on sport.
So maybe the fans were savvy after all and purposefully ignored the tribute because of how lame it was... particularly in comparison to what others schools have done for the last couple of weeks at UNC road games.

Troublemaker
02-22-2015, 01:54 PM
I'll never understand this "tribute" as long as I live. Honoring Dean Smith by playing chicken with the ball is like honoring Richard Nixon by...giving tours of the Watergate Hotel. They guy did some great stuff--eventually getting us out of Vietnam, the EPA, opening up to China. Dean Smith did some great stuff too. So you're going to honor him by re-enacting an offense so boring and vile that the NCAA had to change the rules of the game to prevent it?


AMEN to this. I recognize that Dean was a great teacher of the game, and that there were many aspects of his tactical instruction and the building of his program that were indeed innovative. But I cannot for the life of me understand why by far the most frequently cited example of his "innovation" is an offense that was so antithetical to competition and sportsmanship that it brought about rule changes. That's not innovation; it's forcing everyone's hand by pissing on sport.

Not to mention, if Dean had been coaching in modern times, he would have been absolutely slaughtered by the media for "appropriating" a black coach's invention, benefitting from its use, and allowing 99% of the public to think that Dean invented it. Dean was basically the Vanilla Ice of Hall-of-Fame basketball coaches. If he had pulled that stuff two decades later, Suge Knight would've hung Dean off a balcony until he signed a statement saying that John McLendon was the inventor.

howardlander
02-22-2015, 01:55 PM
If there were more UNC fans (and just a few key administrators) who thought like you, the whole thing might have been over and done a long time ago.

Well, I'm no UNC fan (Trinity 81), but it's a fine place to work and an excellent University. But someone there needs to man up and tell Williams he's done.

Howard

gumbomoop
02-22-2015, 01:58 PM
When you're over 60 your attitude changes. I don't think Roy cares if he's on dangerous ground with some fans about calling out the crowd, he'll call it like he sees it and to heck with the consequences. He's a hall of famer and seems to feel strong about his coaching position tenure at UNC. I think he stays as long as he wants to.

I didn't mean he was on dangerous ground with fans, though he probably is. As for consequences, I don't care whether the fans turn on him, though as a Duke fanatic, I might well find it endlessly entertaining.

I mean, instead, that he doesn't look good. He frequently looks and sounds frazzled. My final sentence in the post to which you are responding was meant to say that I believe some people who care for him must be concerned about his mental and physical health. If you think he's just fine and his occasionally off-the-rails railings are simply minor blips, then we just disagree. I think there's plenty of circumstantial evidence (in videos) to suggest that his supporters should be concerned about, worried for, him. I don't think this is a wild guess, but I can't prove it.

Henderson
02-22-2015, 02:01 PM
Well, I'm no UNC fan (Trinity 81), but it's a fine place to work and an excellent University. But someone there needs to man up and tell Williams he's done.


Many have tried. They just haven't received a warm reception.

Newton_14
02-22-2015, 02:14 PM
Agree, Roy can stay as long as he wants. But I think there is a growing view that retirement would not be a bad thing for UNC from the fan base. Thank him for what he did, go try to get Brad Stevens or Shaka Smart.

(Note: not saying either would do better than Roy. But I think a sizable group would be happy to try it).

I am going to actually disagree that ol roy can stay as long as he wants at this point. I think that ship has sailed out to sea with the fake AFAM studies in tow. There is far too much dirt at this point, and too many skeletons that have come out of the closet. If the NCAA does their job and hammers UNcheat, taking both those banners down, taking scholly's, post season bans, etc, then Roy is toast. There is no coach that can survive that, not even sweet little Ol Roy. You can't bring sanctions that should be brought in a case like this and allow the Head Coach to stay. He knew the cheating was in place (see my signature) even though a smoking gun will never be found linking roy directly.

If the NCAA chickens out and does nothing, it changes things, but even there it is obvious the last 5 seasons have worn the man down. He is a shell of his former self, and is looking very old at this point. If the NCAA does the right thing, this season is Roy's last. If not, I still don't see him lasting beyond next season.

The academic folks that truly want the mess cleaned up will put a ton of pressure on the athletic backers (a large percentage of whom no longer care for Roy and his coaching/antics themselves). Losing to Duke last week in the fashion that they lost did not help matters in that regard either.


His days are numbered.

plimnko
02-22-2015, 02:24 PM
I get a bit queasy at the thought of Smart as head coach over there. It really scares me...
I prefer he go to georgetown. Soon.

if the ncaa does what they SHOULD do, who would want to coach over there??

Wheat/"/"/"
02-22-2015, 02:32 PM
As a UNC grad (MSCS, 1988) and a current employee at UNC, I sincerely hope this is not true. The cheating scandal is very real, and if there is no accountability for Williams, then the NCAA might as well disband.

Howard

If you have some evidence that Roy Williams is/was involved in cheating...something beyond your "opinion" there's a scandal that's "very real", you need to contact the NCAA, not a rival fan message board.

hudlow
02-22-2015, 02:37 PM
if the ncaa does what they SHOULD do, who would want to coach over there??

Exactly...if Roy cares about the school and the S doesn't HTF before the end of the season, he should go out gracefully and the school could use a "talented, deep, veteran team" to lure the best coach they can get into that briar patch.

It's all on Roy.

Will he do what's best for UNC or what's best for his legacy?

GGLC
02-22-2015, 02:42 PM
If you have some evidence that Roy Williams is/was involved in cheating...something beyond your "opinion" there's a scandal that's "very real", you need to contact the NCAA, not a rival fan message board.

Wheat, is it your view that Coach Williams kept close track of what classes his players were enrolled in (including whether they were doing their work) or that he was not generally informed or involved in player academics?

Because Roy Williams himself has said both of those seemingly contradictory things at different times. (Happy to pull the quotes if you'd like to see them.)

Would it make sense for you for a coach to not be apprised of his players' academic workload?

Henderson
02-22-2015, 02:53 PM
If you have some evidence that Roy Williams is/was involved in cheating...something beyond your "opinion" there's a scandal that's "very real", you need to contact the NCAA, not a rival fan message board.

Well there is that matter of playing ineligible players while Roy was the head coach while his hire worked to steer players into bogus classes. I don't know how you define involvement, but your definition of a head coach's involvement and mine might differ.

More interesting about this post, though, is the fact that one UNC-CH fan is shouting down with such vitriol another UNC-CH alum who holds a non-canonical view. Did Folt send out a memo advocating that, or is that just the natural reaction of a community under siege?

BD80
02-22-2015, 03:03 PM
... More interesting about this post, though, is the fact that one UNC-CH fan is shouting down with such vitriol another UNC-CH alum who holds a non-canonical view. Did Folt send out a memo advocating that, or is that just the natural reaction of a community under siege?

I've heard Wheat accused of bringing a knife to a gun fight in arguments on these boards, but never of using a cannon in siege warfare ...

Is vitri-oil the stuff you boil and pour over the castle walls?

OldPhiKap
02-22-2015, 04:17 PM
If you have some evidence that Roy Williams is/was involved in cheating...something beyond your "opinion" there's a scandal that's "very real", you need to contact the NCAA, not a rival fan message board.

Are you seriously questioning whether basketball players were involved in the bogus classes for years? Or just Roy's level of participation/knowledge?

The former is shown overwhelmingly in the Wainstein Report. You're not seriously challenging that, are you? Or that Roy's sidekick he brought from Kansas was up to his eyebrows in the mess? The emails are all out there in public to prove that involvement.

The latter, well -- I assume you must believe that Roy's sidekick acted in a rogue fashion and contrary to Roy's directives? Or simply that Roy {wink}{wink} was shielded from it and did not "know" with metaphysical certitude?

Do you really give Roy a 100% pass?

Wheat/"/"/"
02-22-2015, 04:45 PM
Wheat, is it your view that Coach Williams kept close track of what classes his players were enrolled in (including whether they were doing their work) or that he was not generally informed or involved in player academics?

Because Roy Williams himself has said both of those seemingly contradictory things at different times. (Happy to pull the quotes if you'd like to see them.)

Would it make sense for you for a coach to not be apprised of his players' academic workload?

I have no direct knowledge of anything that went on...I'm just a basketball fan. And I will spare the board a long debate on this until after the NCAA weighs in on just what went on and who's responsible for what.

But if you want my opinion as an interested observer gathering information only from what I read...and my belief that Roy is not the kind of guy who would ever dishonor Deans legacy,the programs, or his own by "cheating", I don't believe that Roy knew there was a problem with those classes.

Maybe he should have, but I dont believe for a minute he did.

Dr. Rosenrosen
02-22-2015, 04:52 PM
Hang on everyone. I've got popcorn in the microwave...

wilson
02-22-2015, 04:52 PM
I have no direct knowledge of anything that went on...I'm just a basketball fan. And I will spare the board a long debate on this until after the NCAA weighs in on just what went on and who's responsible for what.

But if you want my opinion as an interested observer gathering information only from what I read...and my belief that Roy is not the kind of guy who would ever dishonor Deans legacy,the programs, or his own by "cheating", I don't believe that Roy knew there was a problem with those classes.

Maybe he should have, but I dont believe for a minute he did.According to his own words, he should have:
"I'm in charge of the basketball program as much as the chancellor and the athletic director allow me to be."
And I'm also not at all convinced that he didn't know. If indeed he didn't, it's a spectacular case of dunderheadedness and/or chosen ignorance.

OldPhiKap
02-22-2015, 04:56 PM
According to his own words, he should have:
"I'm in charge of the basketball program as much as the chancellor and the athletic director allow me to be."
And I'm also not at all convinced that he didn't know. If indeed he didn't, it's a spectacular case of dunderheadedness and/or chosen ignorance.

"The hardest thing to explain is the glaringly evident which everybody has decided not to see.”

― Ayn Rand, The Fountainhead

budwom
02-22-2015, 04:57 PM
Is tone-deaf, poor at developing players, old and tired, poor at Xs and Os, and hillbilly-whiny the same as being a jackass?

I believe that technically it is supplemental.

Newton_14
02-22-2015, 05:24 PM
Whether or not the NCAA ever punishes unc or not is irrelevant at this point. Anyone who has even paid passing attention to the scandal know the facts are out and confirmed, that unc cheated for at least the past 18 years if not longer, and had ineligible players on the basketball teams in 2005, 2009, and many other of the 18 years+. To deny that is like denying the sun came up today.

The Supplemental Documents from the Wainstein report exposes everything. I would be embarrassed to keep stating no cheating has been proved. And that does not even get into the tons and tons of other stuff like Tami Hansbrough, her boss, the mouthguard scandal, rental cars for players, parking tickets, PJ Hairston scandal, etc.

Any leader who didn't know all that was going on right up under his nose isn't much of a leader and should be fired for not knowing. However, as most rational people know, there is little to no chance any head coach worth his salt wouldn't know all of that was going on.

MarkD83
02-22-2015, 08:56 PM
This is probably better off in a "scandal thread" but this thread has gravitated that way.

I am wondering how much the UNC family wanted to protect Coach Smith from what was occurring after he left. This might include stalling the NCAA so that they wait until after the 2015 season to take any action.

Now that Coach Smith has sadly passed away (and I mean that sincerely) there is no one who needs to be protected from the news of the scandal.

Furniture
02-22-2015, 10:32 PM
Talking today with a friend who's daughter goes to UNC. He said the student section is ridiculous and very often the wine and cheese section has seats that are empty. Apparently it's an on going complaint of the students.
Cameron is much better from that point of view.

AIRFORCEDUKIE
02-23-2015, 06:39 AM
I have no direct knowledge of anything that went on...I'm just a basketball fan. And I will spare the board a long debate on this until after the NCAA weighs in on just what went on and who's responsible for what.

But if you want my opinion as an interested observer gathering information only from what I read...and my belief that Roy is not the kind of guy who would ever dishonor Deans legacy,the programs, or his own by "cheating", I don't believe that Roy knew there was a problem with those classes.

Maybe he should have, but I dont believe for a minute he did.

Well since this mess started during Deans tenure as head coach wouldn't he be honoring "Dean's Legacy" by continuing the fine tradition of cheating in the "Carolina Way" Apparently he is that kind of guy. But, I guess we won't know anything until the Ncaa weighs in. Then we can finally put this issue to rest, and the "Carolina Way" will be exposed for what it really is.

OldPhiKap
02-23-2015, 07:20 AM
Well since this mess started during Deans tenure as head coach wouldn't he be honoring "Dean's Legacy" by continuing the fine tradition of cheating in the "Carolina Way" Apparently he is that kind of guy. But, I guess we won't know anything until the Ncaa weighs in. Then we can finally put this issue to rest, and the "Carolina Way" will be exposed for what it really is.

Dean
Gut
D'oh!
Roy

Four different coaching tenures, and not a one of them knew that something was wrong. That takes some do-ing.

jv001
02-23-2015, 08:08 AM
Dean
Gut
D'oh!
Roy

Four different coaching tenures, and not a one of them knew that something was wrong. That takes some do-ing.

Your list:
Dean. He started it.
Gut. He kept it going because he would have done anything that Dean asked him to do. He was a puppet.
D'oh. See Gut above.
Roy. He's a different animal. He either knew about it and did nothing to stop it. Matter of fact he put fuel on the fire by bringing his man with him from Kansas. Or, Roy is the dumbest of the four and knew nothing was going on. From his own lips, he said he kept up with his players academics, so I say he knew all along.
Now that I think about it, what a coaching tree Dean had.
Uncheat, no longer Duke's rival. GoDuke!

sagegrouse
02-23-2015, 08:27 AM
Greenberg called UNC a wine and cheese crowd on air, he is now forgiven for the crying he and his family did after the Duke game.

FWIW I heard a wonderful ten-minute summary of college basketball on ESPN 980 in DC two weeks ago. It was marred only by the fact that the commentator referred to the coaches in very familiar terms, as though he was good friends with them. What rot! Nooooo!! It was Seth Greenberg. He's pretty good on the telecasts with JWill, but radio is his best medium. Seems like Marshall McLuhan was on to something when he labeled radio a "hot" medium and TV a "cool" medium.

Good job, Seth. Who'd a thunk it?

sagegrouse
02-23-2015, 08:36 AM
"The hardest thing to explain is the glaringly evident which everybody has decided not to see.”

― Ayn Rand, The Fountainhead

Or, re Roy and entire UNC athletic department:

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" -- Upton sinclair

wsb3
02-23-2015, 08:53 AM
Let's pretend for one second that Roy did not know about fake classes. Isn't not knowing just as bad?

He sat in living rooms across this country telling Moms and Dads what a great education that their kids were going to receive.

And no, not for one second do I believe that he did not know about those fake classes.

Wheat/"/"/"
02-23-2015, 08:58 AM
Dean
Gut
D'oh!
Roy

Four different coaching tenures, and not a one of them knew that something was wrong. That takes some do-ing.

That tells me that any class impropriety was hidden from those coaches, and that they accepted them as legitimate and approved by the academics.

Where is the outrage at the academic leaders for allowing these classes to exist?

That's my last comment on this until the NCAA weighs in....

AIRFORCEDUKIE
02-23-2015, 09:18 AM
That tells me that any class impropriety was hidden from those coaches, and that they accepted them as legitimate and approved by the academics.

Where is the outrage at the academic leaders for allowing these classes to exist?

That's my last comment on this until the NCAA weighs in....

I think we already expressed our outrage at the academic leaders, who were most likely pressured by athletics to allow these classes to exist. I wouldn't comment anymore on this topic either if I were you, its embarrassing. You are covering for outright cheating. Which as a fan, I guess you have no other option except to pretend like there is nothing to see here. How else would you still be able to watch the games and enjoy them fully. As a poster said above if they didn't know, then they still have some explaining to do. You would think that your entire team taking the same major would be considered odd to a coach. Or is it that the coach or the guy that he hired to advise his players on which classes to take steered them in the direction of those classes. After all less class work equals more time to focus on the the real "Carolina Way" which is apparently "win at all costs"

Anyway you boil this down, the fans, the university, and the coaches look really bad in any scenario. I am very curious to see what the NCAA has to say about this, they can't ignore this forever and at some point major sanctions and bans are coming.

I think Roy knows hes going to have some issues coming up and that's why he is increasingly acting foolish. At this point it doesn't matter if he is replaced or not, UNC is not winning any NCAA titles any time soon. In fact keeping him as the coach may be a blessing for Duke fans, because it assures us that UNC will be mediocre.

TKG
02-23-2015, 09:22 AM
That tells me that any class impropriety was hidden from those coaches, and that they accepted them as legitimate and approved by the academics.

Where is the outrage at the academic leaders for allowing these classes to exist?

That's my last comment on this until the NCAA weighs in....



I am reminded of Michael Corleone's admonition to Fredo: "Never take sides against the family again."


To challenge the classes would be to challenge Dean Smith. If you think he was viewed as only a basketball coach on that campus then you are being willfully blind. Two academicians (Smith and Willingham) voiced their outrage and are now pariahs in Chapel Hill.

Keep in mind that the three coaches who have followed Smith were selected from within the Carolina family. In fact, I cannot recall anyone otuside the Carolina family being interviewed, seriously, for the position. Perhaps that is just coincedence.

roywhite
02-23-2015, 09:33 AM
I think Roy knows hes going to have some issues coming up and that's why he is increasingly acting foolish. At this point it doesn't matter if he is replaced or not, UNC is not winning any NCAA titles any time soon. In fact keeping him as the coach may be a blessing for Duke fans, because it assures us that UNC will be mediocre.

I agree with Roy's culpability in this athletic/academic scandal, the extent of which has been documented to be huge.

But, interestingly, I believe UNC is still a very dangerous team and program, for at least this year and next. Whether by design or otherwise, they have been able to get talented players who are not a threat to bolt to the NBA at an early stage, and that is definitely one way to win championships in this era.

They have size, depth, rebounding, defensive players, and good transition on offense. They are lacking outside shooting and Ol' Roy is not particularly good at game management in close contests. Still, I think reports of their on-court demise are premature.

moonpie23
02-23-2015, 09:45 AM
will the NCAA hammer Dean? or will they scrub his legacy clean?

elvis14
02-23-2015, 09:52 AM
Let's pretend for one second that Roy did not know about fake classes. Isn't not knowing just as bad?

He sat in living rooms across this country telling Moms and Dads what a great education that their kids were going to receive.

And no, not for one second do I believe that he did not know about those fake classes.

It's as simple as this. Either Roy knew, in which case he should be fired or Roy didn't know, in which case he should be fired. Either way, Roy is guilty of wrongdoing. Roy stated publicly, back when he thought this wasn't going to affect the basketball program, that he knew what his students were studying. So he was either lying then or now.

Now, about those wins that should be vacated....

Wheat/"/"/"
02-23-2015, 10:13 AM
But, interestingly, I believe UNC is still a very dangerous team and program, for at least this year and next. Whether by design or otherwise, they have been able to get talented players who are not a threat to bolt to the NBA at an early stage, and that is definitely one way to win championships in this era.

They have size, depth, rebounding, defensive players, and good transition on offense. They are lacking outside shooting and Ol' Roy is not particularly good at game management in close contests. Still, I think reports of their on-court demise are premature.

Roy has done a good job recruiting, despite missing on several 5* targets that never materialized for various reasons.

Look at a player like Joel James. He's still huge, but he was well over 300 lbs, and only 2 years into playing basketball when Roy offered him. He accepted, got serious about his conditioning, lost over 60 lbs before entering as a freshman and continues to improve to the point that he provided valuable minutes against Duke's All American. And he's still getting better, he will be a big part of UNC's success if they go far in the tourney, write it down.

Johnson has been a big challenge for him, but is another example of Roy recognizing potential and getting him to perform at a high level. Each year he's getting stronger and slowly shedding his soft play.

Meeks fits in there too.

I see all the time from anti Roy foes that he can't coach...he's a poor X's and 0's guy, poor game coach, poor motivator ...yada, yada, yada....but none of that is true. The results speak for themselves. Just because it's repeated over and over and over until it becomes the go to narrative by the uninformed does not make it true.

Here's a recent USA Today article (http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/02/duke-unc-roy-williams-coach-k-krzyzewski-score-overtime-better-coach-records)that discusses Roy's career against coach K.

I happen to have great respect for both coaches. It's really not that unreasonable when you look at both coaches body of work.

I hate it when I see UNC fans get so petty and disrespecting coach K, just like I hate it when I see Duke fans do the same regarding Roy.

AIRFORCEDUKIE
02-23-2015, 10:30 AM
I agree with Roy's culpability in this athletic/academic scandal, the extent of which has been documented to be huge.

But, interestingly, I believe UNC is still a very dangerous team and program, for at least this year and next. Whether by design or otherwise, they have been able to get talented players who are not a threat to bolt to the NBA at an early stage, and that is definitely one way to win championships in this era.

They have size, depth, rebounding, defensive players, and good transition on offense. They are lacking outside shooting and Ol' Roy is not particularly good at game management in close contests. Still, I think reports of their on-court demise are premature.

I think I explained this wrong, I guess they can win this year if they get hot although I think they are just an average team. However, what I meant and didn't explain very well was that sometime after the season is over major sanctions are coming to UNC and they may include post season bans. I happen to think that they should get at least one season of a postseason ban even if the current players weren't involved.

FerryFor50
02-23-2015, 10:36 AM
Roy has done a good job recruiting, despite missing on several 5* targets that never materialized for various reasons.

Look at a player like Joel James. He's still huge, but he was well over 300 lbs, and only 2 years into playing basketball when Roy offered him. He accepted, got serious about his conditioning, lost over 60 lbs before entering as a freshman and continues to improve to the point that he provided valuable minutes against Duke's All American. And he's still getting better, he will be a big part of UNC's success if they go far in the tourney, write it down.

Johnson has been a big challenge for him, but is another example of Roy recognizing potential and getting him to perform at a high level. Each year he's getting stronger and slowly shedding his soft play.

Meeks fits in there too.

I see all the time from anti Roy foes that he can't coach...he's a poor X's and 0's guy, poor game coach, poor motivator ...yada, yada, yada....but none of that is true. The results speak for themselves. Just because it's repeated over and over and over until it becomes the go to narrative by the uninformed does not make it true.

Here's a recent USA Today article (http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/02/duke-unc-roy-williams-coach-k-krzyzewski-score-overtime-better-coach-records)that discusses Roy's career against coach K.

I happen to have great respect for both coaches. It's really not that unreasonable when you look at both coaches body of work.

I hate it when I see UNC fans get so petty and disrespecting coach K, just like I hate it when I see Duke fans do the same regarding Roy.

James' value was basically to pound on Okafor and be an immovable object. As a bonus, he also managed to injure Okafor.

The offense he delivered was pretty unexpected, as his recent 1-4, 2 point effort against woeful GT showed. Saw him miss a couple point blank bunnies that he couldn't seem to miss against Duke. If his ceiling against real competition is 6 points, then I can't see how you think he's going to be a force before he graduates next season. You have a better case with Nate Britt improving. James has not improved since he got to UNC. He played nearly identical minutes per game as a freshman and has nearly an identical stat line except somehow he's WORSE at rebounding and shooting WAY better at FTs. And he's gotten worse on defense. Maybe Roy is an elite FT coach?

Freshman:
9.4 min, 2.3 ppg, 2.4 rpg, 13% rebounding, 54% from the field, 56% FT, 2.4 rpg, .3 blocks, 96.9 def rating, 11.1 PER

Junior:
9.0 min, 2.4 ppg, 45.9% from the field, 77% FT, 1.7 rpg, 10% rebounding, .3 blocks, 100.9 def rating, 10.4 PER

In what way has Joel James "improved"?

Jeffrey
02-23-2015, 10:37 AM
Hi,

In regards to Roy's comments about their fans, I agree with Roy. They're frequently called the sixth man for a reason and, IMO, the coach should coach them too. UNC's fans should be running laps, many laps!

AIRFORCEDUKIE
02-23-2015, 10:40 AM
James' value was basically to pound on Okafor and be an immovable object. As a bonus, he also managed to injure Okafor.

The offense he delivered was pretty unexpected, as his recent 1-4, 2 point effort against woeful GT showed. Saw him miss a couple point blank bunnies that he couldn't seem to miss against Duke. If his ceiling against real competition is 6 points, then I can't see how you think he's going to be a force before he graduates next season. You have a better case with Nate Britt improving. James has not improved since he got to UNC. He played nearly identical minutes per game as a freshman and has nearly an identical stat line except somehow he's WORSE at rebounding and shooting but WAY better at FTs. And he's gotten worse on defense. Maybe Roy is an elite FT coach?

Freshman:
9.4 min, 2.3 ppg, 2.4 rpg, 13% rebounding, 54% from the field, 56% FT, 2.4 rpg, .3 blocks, 96.9 def rating, 11.1 PER

Junior:
9.0 min, 2.4 ppg, 45.9% from the field, 77% FT, 1.7 rpg, 10% rebounding, .3 blocks, 100.9 def rating, 10.4 PER

In what way has Joel James "improved"?


Are we really blaming James for that? I mean I am all for blind hatred of everything UNC, but I think he just landed awkwardly right? Maybe there was some lower body contact that made Jah land weird but that happens on every play.

AIRFORCEDUKIE
02-23-2015, 10:43 AM
Hi,

In regards to Roy's comments about their fans, I agree with Roy. They're frequently called the sixth man for a reason and, IMO, the coach should coach them too. UNC's fans should be running laps, many laps!

Maybe Roy should lock the fans out of the arena kinda like what Nebraska's coach is doing to his teams access to the facilities. That'll teach those wine and cheesers to not understand what ol Roy is cooking up in that crazy head of his. Maybe if he has a contest or promotion, free pizza for every timeout he doesn't use when his team is on the ropes the fans will show up and cheer for that.

FerryFor50
02-23-2015, 10:43 AM
Are we really blaming James for that? I mean I am all for blind hatred of everything UNC, but I think he just landed awkwardly right? Maybe there was some lower body contact that made Jah land weird but that happens on every play.

Did I say he did it on purpose?

Fact of the matter is that James' job was to be physical with Okafor and pound on him. The ankle injury was indeed lower body contact - it was James' foot under Okafor's when he landed. Whether he meant to float under Okafor on the jumper or not is irrelevant - the end result was the same and it almost paid off for UNC.

At any rate, that wasn't the point of the post. The point was to refute that James is improving because he happened to have a non-terrible game against Duke/Okafor.

Henderson
02-23-2015, 10:46 AM
I see all the time from anti Roy foes that he can't coach...he's a poor X's and 0's guy, poor game coach, poor motivator ...yada, yada, yada....but none of that is true. The results speak for themselves. Just because it's repeated over and over and over until it becomes the go to narrative by the uninformed does not make it true.

Here's a recent USA Today article (http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/02/duke-unc-roy-williams-coach-k-krzyzewski-score-overtime-better-coach-records)that discusses Roy's career against coach K.

I happen to have great respect for both coaches. It's really not that unreasonable when you look at both coaches body of work.

I hate it when I see UNC fans get so petty and disrespecting coach K, just like I hate it when I see Duke fans do the same regarding Roy.

There can be no question that Roy has a career resume that warrants accolades. But there comes a time in every man's career when he no longer "has it." When he becomes older, more tired, and less able to keep up with a changing climate. For coaches, that means recruiting, relating to (and motivating) young men, and staying abreast of (and embracing) changing strategies. The game can pass them by. It doesn't happen at the same time for all career people or with all coaches. But it happens.

rifraf
02-23-2015, 10:48 AM
There can be no question that Roy has a career resume that warrants accolades. But there comes a time in every man's career when he no longer "has it." When he becomes older, more tired, and less able to keep up with a changing climate. For coaches, that means recruiting, relating to (and motivating) young men, and staying abreast of (and embracing) changing strategies. The game can pass them by. It doesn't happen to all career people or with all coaches. But it happens with some.

Let's be fair and remember that some people on this very board were saying the same things about K both in the years leading up to the 2010 NC and in the past couple of years.

Wheat/"/"/"
02-23-2015, 10:58 AM
James' value was basically to pound on Okafor and be an immovable object. As a bonus, he also managed to injure Okafor.

The offense he delivered was pretty unexpected, as his recent 1-4, 2 point effort against woeful GT showed. Saw him miss a couple point blank bunnies that he couldn't seem to miss against Duke. If his ceiling against real competition is 6 points, then I can't see how you think he's going to be a force before he graduates next season. You have a better case with Nate Britt improving. James has not improved since he got to UNC. He played nearly identical minutes per game as a freshman and has nearly an identical stat line except somehow he's WORSE at rebounding and shooting WAY better at FTs. And he's gotten worse on defense. Maybe Roy is an elite FT coach?

Freshman:
9.4 min, 2.3 ppg, 2.4 rpg, 13% rebounding, 54% from the field, 56% FT, 2.4 rpg, .3 blocks, 96.9 def rating, 11.1 PER

Junior:
9.0 min, 2.4 ppg, 45.9% from the field, 77% FT, 1.7 rpg, 10% rebounding, .3 blocks, 100.9 def rating, 10.4 PER

In what way has Joel James "improved"?

You should watch match ups on the floor more and worry less about stats.

He's a piece of the puzzle Roy has put together to make up this team, and make it better. When Meeks, Hicks, Johnson lack strength And are getting abused inside by a big strong player, he gives UNC a counter option.

AIRFORCEDUKIE
02-23-2015, 11:02 AM
Did I say he did it on purpose?

Fact of the matter is that James' job was to be physical with Okafor and pound on him. The ankle injury was indeed lower body contact - it was James' foot under Okafor's when he landed. Whether he meant to float under Okafor on the jumper or not is irrelevant - the end result was the same and it almost paid off for UNC.


ahh gotcha just misunderstood.

gumbomoop
02-23-2015, 11:03 AM
That tells me that any class impropriety was hidden from those coaches, and that they accepted them as legitimate and approved by the academics.

Where is the outrage at the academic leaders for allowing these classes to exist?

That's my last comment on this until the NCAA weighs in....

I'll give this a try. To do so, I will distinguish between the University, UNCCH, and the basketball program, the Heels.

Any number of posters have expressed plenty of outrage at UNCCH's academic leaders. I myself have posted repeatedly over the last 3 years about Jan Boxill, ethics prof extraordinaire, wondered aloud at least a half-dozen times about the UNCCH faculty's too-slow reaction, and recently have blasted Carol Folt for covering-up during the ongoing SACS investigation. Many others on EK have similarly complained about the University's leaders who have dishonored a great university.

On one of the scandal threads fairly recently, someone pointed out UNCCH's apparent thread-the-needle current strategy. To SACS, UNCCH acknowledges and expresses regret for past sins, but tries to limit it to a single department, despite explicit evidence in the Wainstain report of sham courses in several other departments. Folt is attempting a bold cover-up, and Smith/Willingham have called her on it. Anyhow, Folt is implicitly trying to persuade SACS that it was an athletic problem, but a very limited academic problem. If SACS buys it, it'll be because they desperately want to avoid sanctioning the University.

In this, the academic leadership and faculty are in a tricky spot, for they certainly hope to avoid any stain on UNCCH's historically admirable academic reputation. And they certainly don't want to be shamed-by-association with Nyang'Oro, Crowder, and Boxill, their former faculty Chair ["Good heavens, can you believe we trusted that fraud?"]. But in hoping to help [.......] SACS avoid looking further into the academic part of the scandal, the leaders over there also have to avoid saying too much, too specifically, too explicitly re the failures in the football and especially the basketball program. They hope to avoid SACS sanctions, but they hope to thread the needle and keep the banners, too.

So, to the NCAA, we must assume the storyline is that which Roy stated from the very beginning, "It's an academic problem, nothing to do with me."

I begin to suspect that those who adopt this view, starting, literally, with Roy, love the Heels, but are willing to throw the University -- UNCCH -- under the bus to protect the banners. To vast numbers of Heel fanatics who care little about what's happened to a great university's honor, the banners are ALL. They "care" about academic greatness, but they aren't passionate about it, don't cheer for it. After all, it's not on TV [that they watch], and it sure as hell isn't March Madness.

If one's loyalty is first and foremost to the University itself, one is likely to be outraged by a scandal that grew out of the athletic department's subversion of academic integrity. If one's loyalty is to Heeldom, one hopes the NCAA, experiencing its own terror at having to do something about this mess, will pontificate loudly about standards, but carry a very small stick, something like a switch, or a twig.

There's no way around this conclusion: if you love the University, you have to be angry at the Heel athletic folks, starting with but not limited to Roy. If protecting the banners is the only goal, then you can say to SACS, go get 'em.

Roy believes he loves the University. But the depth of his love and loyalty is being tested in ways he does not comprehend. For he's unwittingly helping to destroy it. And it is unwitting. He does not understand.

FerryFor50
02-23-2015, 11:03 AM
You should watch match ups on the floor more and worry less about stats.

He's a piece of the puzzle Roy has put together to make up this team, and make it better. When Meeks, Hicks, Johnson lack strength And are getting abused inside by a big strong player, he gives UNC a counter option.

I did watch the James/Okafor match up because I wanted to see how many fouls James committed that weren't being called. He's a big boy and outmuscled Okafor, but was allowed a LOT of freedom to do so.

Also, defensive rating is a stat that takes into account the individual matchups. James has regressed on defense since his freshman year.

FerryFor50
02-23-2015, 11:05 AM
ahh gotcha just misunderstood.

Think of it this way... I play a lot of pickup ball and from what I see from your posts, you play a bit, too.

You KNOW there's always that lumbering, clumsy guy that "hustles" and is just one play away from injuring someone. Joel James is that guy. :cool:

AIRFORCEDUKIE
02-23-2015, 11:06 AM
[QUOTE=FerryFor50;782630]Think of it this way... I play a lot of pickup ball and from what I see from your posts, you play a bit, too.

You KNOW there's always that lumbering, clumsy guy that "hustles" and is just one play away from injuring someone. Joel James is that guy. :cool:[/]

Crap I was sitting here trying to figure out who that was that I play with, now I am worried that its me!!!:p

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-23-2015, 11:07 AM
Are we really blaming James for that? I mean I am all for blind hatred of everything UNC, but I think he just landed awkwardly right? Maybe there was some lower body contact that made Jah land weird but that happens on every play.

You must have missed the other thread where I was shouting into the wind that it would be a very difficult thing to have done on purpose.

jv001
02-23-2015, 11:12 AM
[QUOTE=FerryFor50;782630]Think of it this way... I play a lot of pickup ball and from what I see from your posts, you play a bit, too.

You KNOW there's always that lumbering, clumsy guy that "hustles" and is just one play away from injuring someone. Joel James is that guy. :cool:[/]

Crap I was sitting here trying to figure out who that was that I play with, now I am worried that its me!!!:p

My drink almost came flying out on the keyboard on that one. Funny. GoDuke!

Wheat/"/"/"
02-23-2015, 11:13 AM
I did watch the James/Okafor match up because I wanted to see how many fouls James committed that weren't being called. He's a big boy and outmuscled Okafor, but was allowed a LOT of freedom to do so.

Also, defensive rating is a stat that takes into account the individual matchups. James has regressed on defense since his freshman year.

Okafor struggled against James's defense, while he abused Meeks.

That's what I saw, along with KY's bigs struggling with James's defense when he got a few minutes.

He's a solid post defender. If you can't see that, we'll just have to disagree.

ETA, no reasonable fan thinks James was out to hurt Okafor, or played "dirty".

roywhite
02-23-2015, 11:16 AM
I'll give this a try. To do so, I will distinguish between the University, UNCCH, and the basketball program, the Heels.

Any number of posters have expressed plenty of outrage at UNCCH's academic leaders. I myself have posted repeatedly over the last 3 years about Jan Boxill, ethics prof extraordinaire, wondered aloud at least a half-dozen times about the UNCCH faculty's too-slow reaction, and recently have blasted Carol Folt for covering-up during the ongoing SACS investigation. Many others on EK have similarly complained about the University's leaders who have dishonored a great university.

On one of the scandal threads fairly recently, someone pointed out UNCCH's apparent thread-the-needle current strategy. To SACS, UNCCH acknowledges and expresses regret for past sins, but tries to limit it to a single department, despite explicit evidence in the Wainstain report of sham courses in several other departments. Folt is attempting a bold cover-up, and Smith/Willingham have called her on it. Anyhow, Folt is implicitly trying to persuade SACS that it was an athletic problem, but a very limited academic problem. If SACS buys it, it'll be because they desperately want to avoid sanctioning the University.

In this, the academic leadership and faculty are in a tricky spot, for they certainly hope to avoid any stain on UNCCH's historically admirable academic reputation. And they certainly don't want to be shamed-by-association with Nyang'Oro, Crowder, and Boxill, their former faculty Chair ["Good heavens, can you believe we trusted that fraud?"]. But in hoping to help [.......] SACS avoid looking further into the academic part of the scandal, the leaders over there also have to avoid saying too much, too specifically, too explicitly re the failures in the football and especially the basketball program. They hope to avoid SACS sanctions, but they hope to thread the needle and keep the banners, too.

So, to the NCAA, we must assume the storyline is that which Roy stated from the very beginning, "It's an academic problem, nothing to do with me."

I begin to suspect that those who adopt this view, starting, literally, with Roy, love the Heels, but are willing to throw the University -- UNCCH -- under the bus to protect the banners. To vast numbers of Heel fanatics who care little about what's happened to a great university's honor, the banners are ALL. They "care" about academic greatness, but they aren't passionate about it, don't cheer for it. After all, it's not on TV [that they watch], and it sure as hell isn't March Madness.

If one's loyalty is first and foremost to the University itself, one is likely to be outraged by a scandal that grew out of the athletic department's subversion of academic integrity. If one's loyalty is to Heeldom, one hopes the NCAA, experiencing its own terror at having to do something about this mess, will pontificate loudly about standards, but carry a very small stick, something like a switch, or a twig.

There's no way around this conclusion: if you love the University, you have to be angry at the Heel athletic folks, starting with but not limited to Roy. If protecting the banners is the only goal, then you can say to SACS, go get 'em.

Roy believes he loves the University. But the depth of his love and loyalty is being tested in ways he does not comprehend. For he's unwittingly helping to destroy it. And it is unwitting. He does not understand.

Not eligible to spork you at this time, and a mere spork would not adequately express my admiration of this summary, and your comments in general on this subject. You have explained this whole matter with detail and understanding, and also patience for those who have been unable or unwilling to grasp the issues here.

The scandalous behavior by many over the course of many years is deserving of major punishment, including the dismissal of many. UNCCH's thread-the-needle strategy is a cynical, well-funded Hail Mary that depends on weak responses from both the SACS and the NCAA. Sadly, I think it has some chance of success, which at this point would be expressed in no loss of accreditation or banners.

FerryFor50
02-23-2015, 11:18 AM
Okafor struggled against James's defense, while he abused Meeks.

That's what I saw, along with KY's bigs struggling with James's defense when he got a few minutes.

He's a solid post defender. If you can't see that, we'll just have to disagree.

ETA, no reasonable fan thinks James was out to hurt Okafor, or played "dirty".

I never said he was "out to hurt him." But the result of his play ended up hurting Okafor, which ended up benefiting UNC.

And James was really only solid against Okafor because of how physical they were allowing him to be.

JasonEvans
02-23-2015, 11:20 AM
ETA, no reasonable fan thinks James was out to hurt Okafor, or played "dirty".

Amen and I wish Duke fans would stop making this allegation.

-Jason

FerryFor50
02-23-2015, 11:23 AM
Amen and I wish Duke fans would stop making this allegation.

-Jason

I've said multiple times in this thread that I didn't think that. My original post never even insinuated it. It just stated the fact - James' foot under Okafor = ankle injury, regardless of intent

Wheat/"/"/"
02-23-2015, 11:24 AM
And James was really only solid against Okafor because of how physical they were allowing him to be.

He was certainly no more physical than how Okafor went at Meeks and abused him. Okafor tried to create the same space getting into his chest to move James, and James absorbed the contact and held his ground.

That's good defense on a great player.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-23-2015, 11:24 AM
Okafor struggled against James's defense, while he abused Meeks.

That's what I saw, along with KY's bigs struggling with James's defense when he got a few minutes.

He's a solid post defender. If you can't see that, we'll just have to disagree.

ETA, no reasonable fan thinks James was out to hurt Okafor, or played "dirty".

My only question is why Roy continued to double team Okafor once he was playing on one leg. Seemed to leave a lot of the court open.

jv001
02-23-2015, 11:25 AM
Something I was thinking about the other day. If the cheaters would have played by the rules and used only players that qualified academically, I wonder what kind of record the heels would have obtained over those years. Let's say they were average at best, would that kind of record be attractive enough to secure the top recruits needed to compete in this OAD era? The Carolina way has been a fraud just like their claim to be a great academic institution. I know many UNC graduates, some very good friends. Most all of them are ashamed of the way things transpired at Carolina. Most of the people that are excusing the fraud are NOT Carolina graduates. They're mostly life long fans of the program who care very little about the University as a whole. Just Carolina BB and Carolina Football. I don't know if the unc fans on DBR actually attended the school or fall into the win at all costs fans. I knew the attorney(Eggleston) who sent the published letter to the university that called out the program and asked the school to fix it. He's a former unc player and if he sees the problem, and wants it to be settled, then I don't see why the casual unc fan doesn't feel the same way. Roy is either a crook or stupid, or maybe both. GoDuke!

FerryFor50
02-23-2015, 11:27 AM
He was certainly no more physical than how Okafor went at Meeks and abused him. Okafor tried to create the same space getting into his chest to move James, and James absorbed the contact and held his ground.

That's good defense on a great player.

What about his off-ball defense? Is it legal to move a player with your "chest" when he is in mid-air trying to catch a post pass?

Wheat/"/"/"
02-23-2015, 11:35 AM
What about his off-ball defense? Is it legal to move a player with your "chest" when he is in mid-air trying to catch a post pass?

I don't know. I'd need to see whatever play you're talking about before offering an opinion.

BTW, if the player he's defending is trying to catch the ball, wouldn't that be on-ball defense?

FerryFor50
02-23-2015, 11:36 AM
I don't know. I'd need to see whatever play you're talking about before offering an opinion.

BTW, if the player he's defending is trying to catch the ball, wouldn't that be on-ball defense?

You're right about on-ball vs. off-ball. But those were two separate thoughts in that post. Off-ball, I saw James pushing quite a bit. Hard to tell if it was all "chest" or if he was using his arms, too. Except for the plays where James' arm was across Okafor's face. Those were pretty obvious.

hurleyfor3
02-23-2015, 11:39 AM
This thread has taken at least two hard turns away from the original topic, and the direction it's going in now isn't promising.