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PackMan97
02-19-2015, 09:16 AM
http://paperclassinc.com/pre-march-madness/

CHEATED has been released! Enjoy!

BigWayne
02-19-2015, 10:58 AM
http://paperclassinc.com/pre-march-madness/

CHEATED has been released! Enjoy!

Well, not exactly. "Potomac Books has announced the official release of our book, "Cheated".....In anticipation of the book’s distribution, we would like to make available some documents that help to fill out the context for the story we tell."

Amazon lists it with a March 15th release date and has some review quotes, etc. up.

http://paperclassinc.com says it will be posting supporting documents during the intervening period. 1st one is a letter from Jay Smith to Holden Thorp from 2010 voicing his concerns about the scandal. There's nothing really remarkable in it if you have been following Willingham/Smith the last couple years, but it is put out to combat some of the naysayers that attack Smith for attracting publicity in recent times.

PackMan97
02-19-2015, 11:05 AM
Dagnabit! I'm gonna go shoot myself with a BB gun now.

BigWayne
02-19-2015, 11:10 AM
Dagnabit! I'm gonna go shoot myself with a BB gun now.

I did find this, which is a preview portion you can read online. (https://books.google.com/books?id=gCSDBgAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false) Haven't had time to read much, but here's a sample:

"In 2007, not long after Butch Davis had taken over as the head coach of the UNC football team, a visibly agitated
Beth Bridger stepped out of the office of Wayne Walden, the counselor for the basketball team. A football academic counselor for the football team, Bridger was angry about the courses available to her football players for the upcoming semester, and she blamed the basketball team for the dearth of options. "We deserve the same help and the same treatment that basketball gets when choosing classes. We bring in more money!" What she specifically had in mind, recalls Mary Willingham, who overheard the conversation, were slots in paper classes. Too often, Bridger thought, basketball got all the preferential treatment. She insisted that football players have equal access to the independent study and no-show classes offered by Julius Nyang'oro and Deborah Crowder, the classes that the basketball team had taken by the bushel over the previous several years."

devildeac
02-19-2015, 11:27 AM
Dagnabit! I'm gonna go shoot myself with a BB gun now.

Just go get a massage instead. Safer for all parties involved. ;)

PackMan97
02-19-2015, 05:05 PM
Bloomberg Business has a review of the book online.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-02-19/unc-whistle-blower-s-new-book-sheds-light-on-the-shame-of-college-sports


Some of the most startling findings in Cheated:

How the well-intentioned attempt to build a Department of African and Afro-American Studies devolved into a patronizing and destructive program that encouraged mostly black football and basketball stars to enroll in rubber-stamp courses of virtually no intellectual value. By doing the black athletes the “favor” of inflating their grades, UNC actually exacerbated the mistreatment of students whose value as athletes eclipsed their education beginning in high school and even earlier. It may not have been intentional in the sense of Jim Crow oppression, but this soft, covert racism could be every bit as harmful.
How a conspiracy of silence helped insulate the scam. In some instances the classes were real, but the athletes nominally enrolled in them rarely showed up. The authors quote Adam Seipp, now an historian at Texas A&M, who majored in what was known as the AfAm department: “It was commonly understood in these classes that the athletes were not being made to do the work the rest of us were doing,” Seipp recalled. The “running joke” whenever regular students encountered the ballplayers was, “‘So did you guys do the [AfAm] paper?’ And everybody would laugh. And we all knew what was going on. It was not like it was under the table.”
How Willingham witnessed the undisguised ghostwriting of papers for athletes, as well as rampant plagiarism. Ballplayers routinely copied their supposedly original work directly from library or Internet sources—except when mentor/tutors did the copying for them


.

Dukehky
02-19-2015, 05:22 PM
Speaking of, what's the status of this whole thing? Are they still being investigated?

dukebluesincebirth
02-19-2015, 05:30 PM
Speaking of, what's the status of this whole thing? Are they still being investigated?

Good question. I felt like they got a huge free pass on the cheating scandal from the crazies last night. I haven't seen/heard of any chants/signs/prompts from the game that would've brought this to light in front of a big audience. I'm a little disappointed actually. I thought they deserved much worse, but all anyone can talk about is how great the rivalry is and the Dean smith thing. I didn't hear any mention of the cheating from espn either.

elvis14
02-19-2015, 05:37 PM
Good question. I felt like they got a huge free pass on the cheating scandal from the crazies last night. I haven't seen/heard of any chants/signs/prompts from the game that would've brought this to light in front of a big audience. I'm a little disappointed actually. I thought they deserved much worse, but all anyone can talk about is how great the rivalry is and the Dean smith thing. I didn't hear any mention of the cheating from espn either.

You won't hear much from ESPN. They have minimally covered the scandal from the start. If it were a different school they'd have dug deep and exposed all they could. It would have been covered over and over on Sportscenter until even Duke fans were almost tired of hearing it. But since it's UNC they only mention it quickly once someone else exposes something major and then they stop covering it as soon as they can.

Duvall
02-19-2015, 05:38 PM
I didn't hear any mention of the cheating from espn either.

I mean, you wouldn't. It's ESPN. Gotta protect that inventory.

throatybeard
02-19-2015, 05:40 PM
The great thing about this board is that eventually all the threads on page one will be about UNC academic fraud.

Henderson
02-19-2015, 06:59 PM
The great thing about this board is that eventually all the threads on page one will be about UNC athletic and academic fraud.

FIFY.

I'd get a TV and a cable package if there were a UNC Cheater channel.

Pghdukie
02-19-2015, 07:19 PM
Rumor has it - the connect the dots and color by numbers tests were omitted !!!

BigWayne
02-20-2015, 01:09 PM
Latest example of the cover up. (http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2015/02/fund-that-paid-for-wainstein-report-refused-to-release-budget-information)

Trying to have their cake and eat it too.

“That foundation is a North Carolina nonprofit corporation and is exempt from tax under Internal Revenue Code section 501(c)3,” the public records office said in its response.

But the foundation has also not filed a Form 990 since fiscal year 2007-08 — a document the IRS requires 501(c)3 non-profits to file to maintain their status. "

PackMan97
02-20-2015, 01:53 PM
Latest example of the cover up. (http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2015/02/fund-that-paid-for-wainstein-report-refused-to-release-budget-information)

Trying to have their cake and eat it too.

“That foundation is a North Carolina nonprofit corporation and is exempt from tax under Internal Revenue Code section 501(c)3,” the public records office said in its response.

But the foundation has also not filed a Form 990 since fiscal year 2007-08 — a document the IRS requires 501(c)3 non-profits to file to maintain their status. "

Dear IRS - We don't have to file, we are part of a state or local government entity

Dear Public - We don't have to answer a public records request, we are a 501(c)3 non-profit that is exempt from public records requests made to a state or local government entity.

Interesting that logic. It's the same defense they are using with the NCAA/SACCS.

Dear NCAA, it isn't cheating you guys let each institute handle it's own academic issues.
Dear SACCS, it isn't an academic issue were just about athletics.

Tom B.
02-24-2015, 05:37 PM
This thread needed a bump, so....

UNC and Mary Willingham apparently have reached a settlement in her lawsuit against the university. (http://www.wncn.com/story/28190970/unc-settles-lawsuit-with-willingham)

No details yet. My guess is that the settlement agreement will require the terms of the settlement to be kept confidential.

OldPhiKap
02-24-2015, 05:44 PM
This thread needed a bump, so....

UNC and Mary Willingham apparently have reached a settlement in her lawsuit against the university. (http://www.wncn.com/story/28190970/unc-settles-lawsuit-with-willingham)

No details yet. My guess is that the settlement agreement will require the terms of the settlement to be kept confidential.

Don't know about NC law, but oftentimes you cannot reach a confidential agreement with a public entity. They are subject to open records requests.

Still, there could be a non-disparagement clause of some sort, I guess.

moonpie23
02-24-2015, 05:45 PM
i hope she got a bizillion dollars........

Tom B.
02-24-2015, 05:54 PM
Don't know about NC law, but oftentimes you cannot reach a confidential agreement with a public entity. They are subject to open records requests.

Still, there could be a non-disparagement clause of some sort, I guess.

You're right -- I'd forgotten about the possible impact of the state public records law. Someone just e-mailed me the relevant statutory section:




§ 132-1.3. Settlements made by or on behalf of public agencies, public officials, or public employees; public records.

(a) Public records, as defined in G.S. 132-1, shall include all settlement documents in any suit, administrative proceeding or arbitration instituted against any agency of North Carolina government or its subdivisions, as defined in G.S. 132-1, in connection with or arising out of such agency's official actions, duties or responsibilities, except in an action for medical malpractice against a hospital facility. No agency of North Carolina government or its subdivisions, nor any counsel, insurance company or other representative acting on behalf of such agency, shall approve, accept or enter into any settlement of any such suit, arbitration or proceeding if the settlement provides that its terms and conditions shall be confidential, except in an action for medical malpractice against a hospital facility. No settlement document sealed under subsection (b) of this section shall be open for public inspection.

(b) No judge, administrative judge or administrative hearing officer of this State, nor any board or commission, nor any arbitrator appointed pursuant to the laws of North Carolina, shall order or permit the sealing of any settlement document in any proceeding described herein except on the basis of a written order concluding that (1) the presumption of openness is overcome by an overriding interest and (2) that such overriding interest cannot be protected by any measure short of sealing the settlement. Such order shall articulate the overriding interest and shall include findings of fact that are sufficiently specific to permit a reviewing court to determine whether the order was proper.

(c) Except for confidential communications as provided in G.S. 132-1.1, the term "settlement documents," as used herein, shall include all documents which reflect, or which are made or utilized in connection with, the terms and conditions upon which any proceedings described in this section are compromised, settled, terminated or dismissed, including but not limited to correspondence, settlement agreements, consent orders, checks, and bank drafts. (1989, c. 326.)



Subsection (a) seems to say no confidential settlements, though subsection (b) seems to provide an exception. I'm not sure how broadly the exception has been construed by North Carolina courts, and if this is the type of scenario where a court could find that an "overriding interest" in keeping the settlement secret overcomes the presumption of openness.

MarkD83
02-24-2015, 07:13 PM
Would a settlement and a agreement of confidentiality mean Willingham could not talk to the NCAA?

diablesseblu
02-24-2015, 07:16 PM
Would a settlement and a agreement of confidentiality mean Willingham could not talk to the NCAA?

I cannot fathom Willingham's agreeing to any settlement that would preclude her talking to the NCAA or SACS. Her doing so would undermine her expressed desire to improve the educational opportunities/support for athletes.

ncexnyc
02-24-2015, 07:21 PM
I'm very sorry to hear this. I guess they made her an offer she couldn't refuse.

diablesseblu
02-24-2015, 07:23 PM
I'm very sorry to hear this. I guess they made her an offer she couldn't refuse.

Or she didn't want the suit to be a distraction with book's being released and the attendant publicity that will bring.

-jk
02-24-2015, 07:27 PM
Or she didn't want the suit to be a distraction with book's being released and the attendant publicity that will bring.

Can't figure that one out. Bad publicity for sales? Really?

-jk

bob blue devil
02-24-2015, 07:27 PM
This thread needed a bump, so....

UNC and Mary Willingham apparently have reached a settlement in her lawsuit against the university. (http://www.wncn.com/story/28190970/unc-settles-lawsuit-with-willingham)

No details yet. My guess is that the settlement agreement will require the terms of the settlement to be kept confidential.

so, does this settlement indicate mary is not 'just doing it for the kids'?

diablesseblu
02-24-2015, 07:35 PM
Can't figure that one out. Bad publicity for sales? Really?

-jk


In her shoes, with a book she and Jay Smith want taken seriously, would not want the lawsuit to be seen as a potential "money grab," She has seemed, to me at least, to have more altruistic motives.

OldPhiKap
02-24-2015, 07:44 PM
so, does this settlement indicate mary is not 'just doing it for the kids'?

I think we need to see the terms before deciding. And also, it is tough to know the relative legal strengths of their positions; she could be right but not entitled to judgment for a number of reasons and thus settlement if appropriate.

sagegrouse
02-24-2015, 08:06 PM
Would a settlement and a agreement of confidentiality mean Willingham could not talk to the NCAA?


I cannot fathom Willingham's agreeing to any settlement that would preclude her talking to the NCAA or SACS. Her doing so would undermine her expressed desire to improve the educational opportunities/support for athletes.


I'm very sorry to hear this. I guess they made her an offer she couldn't refuse.

Lessee.... UNC reaches a settlement with a potential witness and compels her NOT to talk with the NCAA. We know the "coverup" is often punished more severely than the "crime." The NCAA regs require UNC to observe and enforce the various NCAA rules. I believe UNC would be in a heap more trouble if it applied a legal muzzle to Ms. Willingham.

ncexnyc
02-24-2015, 08:07 PM
In her shoes, with a book she and Jay Smith want taken seriously, would not want the lawsuit to be seen as a potential "money grab," She has seemed, to me at least, to have more altruistic motives.
Which is exactly why I'm shocked to see that a settlement has been reached. I too was under the impression that her taking UNCheat to court was more of a matter of principle than an attempt to get a large sum of money from them. Again, we have no idea what she did get, but it seems odd she didn't take this all the way.

diablesseblu
02-24-2015, 08:15 PM
Which is exactly why I'm shocked to see that a settlement has been reached. I too was under the impression that her taking UNCheat to court was more of a matter of principle than an attempt to get a large sum of money from them. Again, we have no idea what she did get, but it seems odd she didn't take this all the way.


Did she file the suit before she and Smith signed a contract to write the book? If so, maybe she decided the book was a better vehicle for "getting the word out." If there was another way, I'd avoid a trial given the preponderance of UNC grad judges in this state.

MarkD83
02-24-2015, 10:20 PM
I believe the suit was for unfairly being fired. In which case maybe the whole deal about a potential confidentiality clause is related to being dismissed rather than about the "scandal".

Ima Facultiwyfe
02-24-2015, 11:01 PM
i hope she got a bizillion dollars........

Too bad the bizillion will come out of our pockets.
Love, Ima:mad:

moonpie23
02-24-2015, 11:06 PM
it should come out of roy's bonuses....

OldPhiKap
02-24-2015, 11:20 PM
Roy's PC:

http://northcarolina.scout.com/story/1521001-unc-ncsu-roy-williams-postgame?s=78

Throw the team under the bus, admit you suck as a coach, kowtow to the crowd.

Roy, Folly Beach is nice and the golf courses will be in full bloom in a few weeks. Time to hang 'em up.

CharlestonDevil
02-25-2015, 09:18 AM
Roy's PC:

http://northcarolina.scout.com/story/1521001-unc-ncsu-roy-williams-postgame?s=78

Throw the team under the bus, admit you suck as a coach, kowtow to the crowd.

Roy, Folly Beach is nice and the golf courses will be in full bloom in a few weeks. Time to hang 'em up.


Nope. The beaches are dirty, women ugly, food terrible, and while everyone here pulls for "Carolina" it ain't the same one daggum Roy pulls for. Tell him to hang it up in Myrtle Beach, there's nothing for him here...

rocketeli
02-25-2015, 09:45 AM
most lawsuits are settled. I'm sure she feels she deserves compensation for being wrongfully terminated and smeared in the press, as well as legal costs which can be substantial. Probably was settled over the wrongful termination and was not a huge dollar amount. (most lawsuits are not very gainful for the parties involved beyond reasonable costs and penalties-it's just that the big awards make the news because they are rare-you don't pick up a paper and read that the sun rose in the East.)

Huh?
02-25-2015, 10:12 AM
Nope. The beaches are dirty, women ugly, food terrible, and while everyone here pulls for "Carolina" it ain't the same one daggum Roy pulls for. Tell him to hang it up in Myrtle Beach, there's nothing for him here...

Unfortunately Roy has a house in Wrightsville Beach.

jv001
02-25-2015, 10:35 AM
Unfortunately Roy has a house in Wrightsville Beach.

Is Will Graves the caretaker and PJ the part time butler? GoDuke!

Henderson
02-25-2015, 10:44 AM
I don't suppose we have any new information about what the settlement agreement contains, do we? Probably have to wait until the judge approves it and enters a judgment of dismissal. But knowing whether it's being made public, and if so what it contains, would go a long way in stemming the speculation.

Lar77
02-25-2015, 11:30 AM
It’s about the optics. Which are horrible. It’s also about the decision, also a horrible one.

Let me give you the other side first.

In the lawsuit by Mary Willingham against the University of North Carolina, the defendants drew the wrong judge. A judge, one that sought out the case, that was plaintiff-friendly, and who was thought to be looking for any and every reason to rule in favor of the plaintiff, the aforesaid Mary Willingham. He was chomping at the bit to make a statement, if not just against UNC, against the whole college sports paradigm.

Going through with the litigation would be costly. Discovery was about to begin, putting the University of North Carolina on the hook for a cool half million, estimated costs, just for the discovery phase alone. North Carolina’s legal team further estimated the costs of litigation, trial, and appeal of upwards of two million. At the end of the day, UNC felt it had a good chance at a favorable ruling, but there was also a legitimate chance that it would go the other direction; that UNC would be on the hook for full damages and the most dreaded result - that UNC would have to reinstate Willingham to her job.

And there were other considerations. The Willingham lawsuit wasn’t the only front UNC had to defend. There was the NCAA front, and then the front represented by former UNC players, claiming that UNC forced them into making poor academic choices that deprived them of a “real” education. Personally, I think such a case should not survive a Motion to Dismiss, but that’s just me.

North Carolina’s legal team – supposedly the best of the best – strongly advised the BOT to settle. It was forwarded as a long-term strategy. With the Willingham matter out of the way – so to speak – the University of North Carolina could focus on the other challenges it was facing. Which are multitudinous.

From what I am given to understand, this was not, and this is an understatement, a universally embraced opinion by the board. Lots of back and forth, lots of give and take, contentious, but at the end of the day the opinion of the legal team prevailed.

They pay the legal team for their advice, and at the end of the day, they took it.

From what I am told, the decision was made without any discussion of the optics of the decision, which in my opinion should have been a major, if not the primary, consideration.

North Carolina’s fans and supporters have been digging deep, digging as deeply and as strongly as they possibly can, to find some reason, any reason, to believe that behind the scenes the new leadership of their university was pushing back against a false narrative, forwarding a strong case for their school, ready to go to the last ditch to defend the truth.

This despite a conviction, and I am talking about a conviction among the most dedicated and loyal followers of UNC sports, that the entire Tar Heel nation was sold out by a former chancellor far too eager to point his finger at athletics than allow his bailiwick, academics, to be challenged.

Now they feel sold out – yet again.

The University of North Carolina may have believed that it was necessary to ignore its core, its base, the lifeblood of its support, in order to make a finely balanced cost/benefit analysis about the settlement of this case. Or, they never entered the reaction of its base into their settlement calculations.

Which is why many in the core base of UNC athletic supporters justifiably feel abandoned by the university’s leadership today.

So let me ask the leadership that made this decision a few questions:

1) Do you think the core of your university’s athletic supporters, and their opinions, should be involved in these decisions? Or do you expect them to swallow unquestionably whatever decision you make as in their best interests?

2) What steps did you take to get the rationale for this decision out in front of that core’s justifiable reaction? What steps are you taking now to explain that decision?

3) When you urge your minions to make phone calls, write letters, engage social media, all in order to hype up that core to buy the tickets, make donations, support the program, how do you expect that core to react? Do expect unconditional support for whatever decision you make?

And, you know what? If that is your expectation, you may be right. Win enough games, go a good distance in the NCAA tourney, win the Coastal Division, the core will be back, ready to overlook being tossed under the bus by the Poindexter’s that made this decision based on a risk assessment analysis that ignored them.

And that makes this call worthy of execration. If they discounted, or perhaps counted on, the (short) memories of UNC athletic supporters in reaching this decision, well … I have lost words to say what they deserve, and that is a first for me.

Duke95
02-25-2015, 11:39 AM
More athletes join lawsuits against UNC.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/25/us/unc-academic-fraud/index.html

sagegrouse
02-25-2015, 11:48 AM
It’s about the optics.

.....................................

So let me ask the leadership that made this decision a few questions:

1) Do you think the core of your university’s athletic supporters, and their opinions, should be involved in these decisions? Or do you expect them to swallow unquestionably whatever decision you make as in their best interests?

2) What steps did you take to get the rationale for this decision out in front of that core’s justifiable reaction? What steps are you taking now to explain that decision?

3) When you urge your minions to make phone calls, write letters, engage social media, all in order to hype up that core to buy the tickets, make donations, support the program, how do you expect that core to react? Do expect unconditional support for whatever decision you make?

And, you know what? If that is your expectation, you may be right. Win enough games, go a good distance in the NCAA tourney, win the Coastal Division, the core will be back, ready to overlook being tossed under the bus by the Poindexter’s that made this decision based on a risk assessment analysis that ignored them.

And that makes this call worthy of execration. If they discounted, or perhaps counted on, the (short) memories of UNC athletic supporters in reaching this decision, well … I have lost words to say what they deserve, and that is a first for me.

Lessee.... UNC treated Willingham harshly after she threatened to become and later became a whistle-blower. She sued. The UNC Board bought her off for a nice chunk of change but probably less than UNC will pay its lawyers on these matters. So the writer insinuates that this tactical decision on a personnel matter is an admission of guilt on the larger issues being examined by SACS and the NCAA. Therefore, according to the writer, the diehard fans are likely to bail on UNC. If so, then UNC support is really shaky.

Seattle Hoo
02-25-2015, 12:15 PM
So is he saying that the "core" believes UNC did nothing wrong and that they have been betrayed by this settlement because outsiders will think it admits guilt? In other words, the "core" is in willful denial.

It seems to me that the UNC athletic fans are so desperate that this not be seen as an athletics issue so they don't get punished by the NCAA and see recruiting suffer that they are willing to throw the core function of the University itself - you know, academics - under the bus. Call it an academic scandal and besmirch the reputation of the University, as long as it doesn't cost us National Championships! Is that The Carolina Way?

I could be reading it wrong, but that's what that message seems to me to be saying.

It says something that this Carolina scandal could be the worst case of academic cheating for athletes ever, and virtually nobody expects Carolina to receive any punishment from the NCAA for it. I tremble for the next Cleveland State to get caught changing a grade.

AIRFORCEDUKIE
02-25-2015, 12:17 PM
This is a fanbase that started a gofundme project for a movie called "verified" It will be a movie about how the media created this "Cheating Scandal" and UNC athletics is just a bunch of innocent folks who got pegged by the mean old academic community as fall boys.

Lar77
02-25-2015, 12:28 PM
So is he saying that the "core" believes UNC did nothing wrong and that they have been betrayed by this settlement because outsiders will think it admits guilt? In other words, the "core" is in willful denial.

It seems to me that the UNC athletic fans are so desperate that this not be seen as an athletics issue so they don't get punished by the NCAA and see recruiting suffer that they are willing to throw the core function of the University itself - you know, academics - under the bus. Call it an academic scandal and besmirch the reputation of the University, as long as it doesn't cost us National Championships! Is that The Carolina Way?

I could be reading it wrong, but that's what that message seems to me to be saying.

It says something that this Carolina scandal could be the worst case of academic cheating for athletes ever, and virtually nobody expects Carolina to receive any punishment from the NCAA for it. I tremble for the next Cleveland State to get caught changing a grade.

It's scary, isn't it? That the BOT seemed to be so "divided" about settling a wrongful dismissal case that would cost millions to pursue and might have turned out badly in many ways.

This representative of the "core" seems to call for continuing the scorched earth strategy to protect the banners. Yes, Cleveland State, I would tremble.

wsb3
02-25-2015, 12:39 PM
Unfortunately Roy has a house in Wrightsville Beach.

Yes he does. I worked for the Town until I retired in 2011. But you remind me of a funny story in regards to Roy and WB. It was near the end of the 2010 season & maybe Roy was taking a break from prepping for the NIT or maybe their run at that had just ended.

A buddy of mine, who worked for another department was doing sidewalk work in the small downtown commercial area of WB. He is a die hard UNC fan. Great guy other than that. Well he is talking with his co worker & he is giving Roy & the team the business for how bad they were. He turns around and who is standing there waiting to enter the coffee shop but good ole Roy.

Roy went inside without comment but on his way out he stopped and said, I heard the conversation. Give us a little time & we will be back, or something to that effect.

I think all these coaches get a little thin skinned. Why he felt the need to respond is beyond me..My buddy was a little embarrassed considering his love of all things light blue.

Henderson
02-25-2015, 12:45 PM
I think it was Isaac Newton who said, "If it's you claiming to be the core of something, you probably aren't."

Or maybe that was George McGovern. One of those guys anyway.

killerleft
02-25-2015, 01:07 PM
This is a fanbase that started a gofundme project for a movie called "verified" It will be a movie about how the media created this "Cheating Scandal" and UNC athletics is just a bunch of innocent folks who got pegged by the mean old academic community as fall boys.

Sounds like the Coen Brothers should get involved.:o Sorry, I watched Fargo last night, Jeez.

devildeac
02-25-2015, 02:14 PM
Too bad the bizillion will come out of our pockets.
Love, Ima:mad:


it should come out of roy's bonuses....

Have Bubba and The Hat write her checks:rolleyes:;).

Henderson
02-25-2015, 02:24 PM
Have Bubba and The Hat write her checks:rolleyes:;).

Now that was funny.

Tripping William
02-25-2015, 02:32 PM
Have Bubba and The Hat write her checks:rolleyes:;).


Now that was funny.

Yes, indeedy, it was. At some future point, when you get sporks from me for seemingly no reason, *this* will be why!

Wonder what Bubba's "apology letter" accompanying the checks will say . . . . .

Henderson
02-25-2015, 02:49 PM
Yes, indeedy, it was. At some future point, when you get sporks from me for seemingly no reason, *this* will be why!

Wonder what Bubba's "apology letter" accompanying the checks will say . . . . .

....and whether Mary will return Fedora's apologetic phone call.

alteran
02-25-2015, 02:57 PM
Don't know about NC law, but oftentimes you cannot reach a confidential agreement with a public entity. They are subject to open records requests.

Still, there could be a non-disparagement clause of some sort, I guess.

I don't think UNC is subject to open records requests. Actually, I mean, THEY don't think they're subject to open records requests, we found out this when the Wainstein report reproduced several documents missing from N&O's NCFOIA requests.

-jk
02-25-2015, 03:00 PM
This is a fun site:

http://publicrecords.unc.edu/public-records/

-jk

alteran
02-25-2015, 03:08 PM
Which is exactly why I'm shocked to see that a settlement has been reached. I too was under the impression that her taking UNCheat to court was more of a matter of principle than an attempt to get a large sum of money from them. Again, we have no idea what she did get, but it seems odd she didn't take this all the way.

Yeah, me too. I mean, the quick take is that she's taking the money.

but I wonder if from her point of view 1) she escapes the legal costs associated with her case, 2) she gets some sort of fair compensation, and 3) the university unambiguously clears her name.

Her other goal, 4) making the university clean up its act, can be handled by the book.

Tom B.
02-25-2015, 04:07 PM
More athletes join lawsuits against UNC.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/25/us/unc-academic-fraud/index.html

if I'm reading that correctly, it looks like a new named plaintiff has been added to the McAdoo lawsuit, and two other former Heel athletes (including former UNC women's basketball goon Leah Metcalf) have filed a separate and new class action against UNC.

So UNC gets rid of one lawsuit, and the next day, there's a new one to take its place.

And then, of course, there's also the pending Rashanda McCants lawsuit.

So many lawsuits -- it's easy to lose track. Someone should keep a chart or something.

Seems like a good time to bring this back:


http://i.imgur.com/aVZgT.gif

Henderson
02-25-2015, 04:24 PM
if I'm reading that correctly, it looks like a new named plaintiff has been added to the McAdoo lawsuit, and two other former Heel athletes (including former UNC women's basketball goon Leah Metcalf) have filed a separate and new class action against UNC.

So UNC gets rid of one lawsuit, and the next day, there's a new one to take its place.

And then, of course, there's also the pending Rashanda McCants lawsuit.

So many lawsuits -- it's easy to lose track. Someone should keep a chart or something.

Seems like a good time to bring this back:


http://i.imgur.com/aVZgT.gif

Is that the whole UNC-CH bundle of scandals coming at us in 3D? "Oh my God, it's Carol Folt and she's coming right at me!"

Sign me up. And don't bogart the popcorn.

BigWayne
02-26-2015, 03:56 AM
N&O says UNC owes Mary an apology and should also hire her to oversee the reforms they claim they are making. (http://www.newsobserver.com/2015/02/25/4583490_willingham-settlement-with-unc.html)

Henderson
02-26-2015, 11:45 AM
IC is all atwitter about a supposed $325,000 payout to Willingham. Has information about the terms of the settlement been released?

lotusland
02-26-2015, 11:51 AM
IC is all atwitter about a supposed $325,000 payout to Willingham. Has information about the terms of the settlement been released?

If that is the settlement amount im(non-expert)o she settled for cheap. I think UNC would pay more than that to keep Butch, Huck, Doh and the whole scandalous cast of characters from testifying under oath.

BigWayne
02-26-2015, 01:19 PM
IC is all atwitter about a supposed $325,000 payout to Willingham. Has information about the terms of the settlement been released?

Not yet, but somebody at IC thinks they know and then the guy running the Sham Ram FB page posted this:
4805

Tom B.
02-26-2015, 02:51 PM
If that is the settlement amount im(non-expert)o she settled for cheap. I think UNC would pay more than that to keep Butch, Huck, Doh and the whole scandalous cast of characters from testifying under oath.

It may seem like UNC got off cheaply, but at the end of the day, that might have been about the best Willingham could hope for. It was a wrongful termination claim, so her damages were going to be whatever lost income she could prove, plus any dollar amount she could prove for damage to her reputation, etc. (something that's rather difficult to show). Considering that she was probably making in the low six figures, at best, when she was at UNC, $325,000 isn't too bad. It's basically UNC saying, "OK, we'll give you three years of your salary in a lump sum to drop the case and go away."

lotusland
02-26-2015, 04:37 PM
It may seem like UNC got off cheaply, but at the end of the day, that might have been about the best Willingham could hope for. It was a wrongful termination claim, so her damages were going to be whatever lost income she could prove, plus any dollar amount she could prove for damage to her reputation, etc. (something that's rather difficult to show). Considering that she was probably making in the low six figures, at best, when she was at UNC, $325,000 isn't too bad. It's basically UNC saying, "OK, we'll give you three years of your salary in a lump sum to drop the case and go away."

So in a trial for wrongful termination would she have been able to subpoena witnesses to corroborate her allegations about cheating? They've already paid way more that that to keep the truth under wraps so I think I'd take my chances on getting a much higher settlement in that case if I could put all the pertinent folks on the stand. Actually I would probably take my attorney's advice but that would be my question to him or her.

-jk
02-26-2015, 04:53 PM
I want to see the terms of the settlement: Willingham has a book coming. I suspect she'll be involved in some capacity in the player lawsuits. The SACS and NCAA want to chat.

If the settlement has muzzled her, I'd be disappointed in any settlement under several mil. Since the settlement is purported to be released, I suspect they haven't muzzled her.

-jk

MarkD83
02-26-2015, 05:34 PM
Of course the other option is she saw all of the law suits coming and the amount of money being paid to PR firms and lawyers and decided before the bank of UNC runs dry let me get what I can.

OldPhiKap
02-26-2015, 05:37 PM
I want to see the terms of the settlement: Willingham has a book coming. I suspect she'll be involved in some capacity in the player lawsuits. The SACS and NCAA want to chat.

If the settlement has muzzled her, I'd be disappointed in any settlement under several mil. Since the settlement is purported to be released, I suspect they haven't muzzled her.

-jk

If she is subpoenaed to testify or give a deposition in another case, this settlement would not prohibit her from giving full and honest testimony. And I would find it hard to think she would agree to be muzzled since she has a book coming out. But agree, let's see the settlement agreement.

JTH
02-26-2015, 07:06 PM
It may seem like UNC got off cheaply, but at the end of the day, that might have been about the best Willingham could hope for. It was a wrongful termination claim, so her damages were going to be whatever lost income she could prove, plus any dollar amount she could prove for damage to her reputation, etc. (something that's rather difficult to show). Considering that she was probably making in the low six figures, at best, when she was at UNC, $325,000 isn't too bad. It's basically UNC saying, "OK, we'll give you three years of your salary in a lump sum to drop the case and go away."

I admit that I was surprised to hear $ 325K, although I really don't know enough to say if this is or is not a fair settlement. But, there seems to be at least some similarities to the Jan Kemp/UGA suit which resulted in her being awarded $ 2.58 million (reduced to $ 1.1 million) back in the 80's. Of course, there could be a lot of differences in the particular details of each case. Maybe someone with more knowledge of the Jan Kemp case can shed some light on why Mary could not have expected something similar.

http://www.uslaw.com/library/Academic/Noting_Passing_Jan_Kemp_UGA_Athletics_Whistleblowe r.php?item=318173

BigWayne
02-26-2015, 07:14 PM
$325K is just a rumor. Not worth anything right now. We'll know soon enough what the real number is.

MarkD83
02-26-2015, 08:05 PM
If I were on the UNC BOT (thankfully not) I would be thinking about the fiscal impact of all of this so.....has anyone added up all of the costs and potential costs

1. First report from Gov. Martin = $1,000,000

https://synapse.creatavist.com/scandal
This link does a good job of summarizing costs up to 2011.

2. Wainstein investigation = $3,111,385.17 (that is an important 17 cents)

http://myfox8.com/2014/11/21/wainstein-investigation-cost-unc-chapel-hill-3-million/

3. PR firms (as of 11/29/14) $500,000 prior to 2014 and $782,000 bill from Edelman PR firm = $1,282,000

https://www.facebook.com/occupycollege/posts/469615309790768
http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/24773909/report-unc-has-paid-over-1-million-in-pr-costs-for-academic-scandal

4. Potential loss in student aid from the Fed Govt. In 2013 UNC received $2,300,000

http://www.shfwire.com/academic-fraud-could-cost-unc-millions-in-federal-student-aid/

5. Settlement of Willingham suit rumored to be $325,000

6. Suits brought by former athletes : Lets say this is 1000 students each getting $10,000 = $10,000,000

That makes a grand total of $18,018,385.17. if we don't count the pending suits that is still $8 million.

According to the synapse link above

"University officials say costs associated with controversies are not financed with tuition dollars but instead through three main sources: state funds, the athletic budget and the UNC-Chapel Hill Foundation Inc., a portion of the University’s endowment established through private donations. A small portion of the costs were paid through miscellaneous University funds, a spokeswoman said." with 61% financed by the athletic budget.

So 61% of the $18 million is ~ $11 million. If we don't count the pending suits this becomes $4.9 million

In 2011-12 the UNC Athletic budget was $72,400,000 with $72,200,000 in expenses for a profit of $200,000. (see link). In 2014 the profit was $324,000 (see 2nd link) I am not sure this includes the costs listed above.

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/unc/story/9944045/
http://www.heraldsun.com/news/x1476703138/Athletics-financial-data-released-for-UNC-Chapel-Hill-Duke

So what does all of this mean. The rumored $325,000 to Willingham just took most if not all of the profits from the UNC Athletic Dept in 2014. If they are on the hook for 61% of the costs already incurred that takes away about 15 years of profit. If they are on the hook for expenses already incurred and the potential law suits that are pending that would be about 35 years of profit.

So...what do I do if I were on the BOT...I start to do whatever I can to minimize costs.

Henderson
02-27-2015, 08:03 PM
Gregg Easterbrook's review of the Smith/Willingham book is up on the Wall Street Journal website. http://www.wsj.com/articles/book-review-cheated-by-jay-m-smith-and-mary-willingham-1425077434. (may require subscription, but I got in without one).

Entitled, Dark Days in Chapel Hill, it's got some satisfying slashing quotable quotes, though Easterbrook ultimately succumbs to the cliche about this being just one part of a larger problem involving money and big time college sports.

OldPhiKap
02-28-2015, 09:39 AM
http://www.wsj.com/articles/book-review-cheated-by-jay-m-smith-and-mary-willingham-1425077434?mod=hp_opinion


Willingham book review from today's Wall Street Journal

Looks like more work for UNC's crack PR team to do.

Are they paid by Ramsclubbers, or NC taxpayers?

Atlanta Duke
02-28-2015, 09:48 AM
Gregg Easterbrook's review of the Smith/Willingham book is up on the Wall Street Journal website. http://www.wsj.com/articles/book-review-cheated-by-jay-m-smith-and-mary-willingham-1425077434. (may require subscription, but I got in without one).

Entitled, Dark Days in Chapel Hill, it's got some satisfying slashing quotable quotes

Like this?:)

After the Chapel Hill scandal went public, the school commissioned a flurry of reports, the two most prominent of which appeared to tell all but were at heart whitewashes....

The second report attached no blame to basketball coach Williams ... The men’s basketball program has seven coaches for a roster that averages 16—the kind of instructor-to-student ratio normally found only in doctoral programs. Yet we’re asked to believe there’s no way the coaches could have noticed that many players never seemed to need to be in class. Mr. Williams should have been fired for presiding over an institutionally corrupt program. Instead he was given a pass.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/book-review-cheated-by-jay-m-smith-and-mary-willingham-1425077434

oldnavy
02-28-2015, 10:02 AM
Like this?:)

After the Chapel Hill scandal went public, the school commissioned a flurry of reports, the two most prominent of which appeared to tell all but were at heart whitewashes....

The second report attached no blame to basketball coach Williams ... The men’s basketball program has seven coaches for a roster that averages 16—the kind of instructor-to-student ratio normally found only in doctoral programs. Yet we’re asked to believe there’s no way the coaches could have noticed that many players never seemed to need to be in class. Mr. Williams should have been fired for presiding over an institutionally corrupt program. Instead he was given a pass.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/book-review-cheated-by-jay-m-smith-and-mary-willingham-1425077434

Ol Roy's not going to like that! Them's fighting words for a mountain man!!

Newton_14
02-28-2015, 10:20 AM
It’s about the optics. Which are horrible. It’s also about the decision, also a horrible one.

Let me give you the other side first.

In the lawsuit by Mary Willingham against the University of North Carolina, the defendants drew the wrong judge. A judge, one that sought out the case, that was plaintiff-friendly, and who was thought to be looking for any and every reason to rule in favor of the plaintiff, the aforesaid Mary Willingham. He was chomping at the bit to make a statement, if not just against UNC, against the whole college sports paradigm.

Going through with the litigation would be costly. Discovery was about to begin, putting the University of North Carolina on the hook for a cool half million, estimated costs, just for the discovery phase alone. North Carolina’s legal team further estimated the costs of litigation, trial, and appeal of upwards of two million. At the end of the day, UNC felt it had a good chance at a favorable ruling, but there was also a legitimate chance that it would go the other direction; that UNC would be on the hook for full damages and the most dreaded result - that UNC would have to reinstate Willingham to her job.

And there were other considerations. The Willingham lawsuit wasn’t the only front UNC had to defend. There was the NCAA front, and then the front represented by former UNC players, claiming that UNC forced them into making poor academic choices that deprived them of a “real” education. Personally, I think such a case should not survive a Motion to Dismiss, but that’s just me.

North Carolina’s legal team – supposedly the best of the best – strongly advised the BOT to settle. It was forwarded as a long-term strategy. With the Willingham matter out of the way – so to speak – the University of North Carolina could focus on the other challenges it was facing. Which are multitudinous.

From what I am given to understand, this was not, and this is an understatement, a universally embraced opinion by the board. Lots of back and forth, lots of give and take, contentious, but at the end of the day the opinion of the legal team prevailed.

They pay the legal team for their advice, and at the end of the day, they took it.

From what I am told, the decision was made without any discussion of the optics of the decision, which in my opinion should have been a major, if not the primary, consideration.

North Carolina’s fans and supporters have been digging deep, digging as deeply and as strongly as they possibly can, to find some reason, any reason, to believe that behind the scenes the new leadership of their university was pushing back against a false narrative, forwarding a strong case for their school, ready to go to the last ditch to defend the truth.

This despite a conviction, and I am talking about a conviction among the most dedicated and loyal followers of UNC sports, that the entire Tar Heel nation was sold out by a former chancellor far too eager to point his finger at athletics than allow his bailiwick, academics, to be challenged.

Now they feel sold out – yet again.

The University of North Carolina may have believed that it was necessary to ignore its core, its base, the lifeblood of its support, in order to make a finely balanced cost/benefit analysis about the settlement of this case. Or, they never entered the reaction of its base into their settlement calculations.

Which is why many in the core base of UNC athletic supporters justifiably feel abandoned by the university’s leadership today.

So let me ask the leadership that made this decision a few questions:

1) Do you think the core of your university’s athletic supporters, and their opinions, should be involved in these decisions? Or do you expect them to swallow unquestionably whatever decision you make as in their best interests?

2) What steps did you take to get the rationale for this decision out in front of that core’s justifiable reaction? What steps are you taking now to explain that decision?

3) When you urge your minions to make phone calls, write letters, engage social media, all in order to hype up that core to buy the tickets, make donations, support the program, how do you expect that core to react? Do expect unconditional support for whatever decision you make?

And, you know what? If that is your expectation, you may be right. Win enough games, go a good distance in the NCAA tourney, win the Coastal Division, the core will be back, ready to overlook being tossed under the bus by the Poindexter’s that made this decision based on a risk assessment analysis that ignored them.

And that makes this call worthy of execration. If they discounted, or perhaps counted on, the (short) memories of UNC athletic supporters in reaching this decision, well … I have lost words to say what they deserve, and that is a first for me.

Wow. This is sad, sick, delusional, pick any word. As I have said from Day 1, the above is the mindset of the vast majority of unc-cheat fans and alums in this State. The person is in 100% total denial. He/She speaks of "false narratives", "untruth's", "Willingham being reinstated to her job = worse case scenario", and more importantly goes on and on about the "Core" and then slams Holden Thorpe for actually putting academics first. How awful of him. I mean you would think that these universities are there to just provide an education or something. Don't these people get the fact that the primary goal is to win athletic contests and hang banners??


I also thought the commentary about "getting the wrong judge" was hilarious. You mean they somehow managed to draw a judge in this state with no affiliation to unc-cheat? What are those odds??

Dr. Rosenrosen
02-28-2015, 10:42 AM
Which is why many in the core base of UNC athletic supporters justifiably feel abandoned by the university’s leadership today.
Heh Heh... exactly.

Newton_14
02-28-2015, 11:03 AM
Heh Heh... exactly.

Says a lot about them in very few words eh Dr. R? I would be embarrassed and ashamed if anyone every wrote that kind of nonsense about Duke. The sad reality is, "The Carolina Way" was never anything more than a fraud. The "CORE" has always been about athletic wins no matter the price.

Jderf
02-28-2015, 12:02 PM
The great thing about this board is that eventually all the threads on page one will be about UNC academic fraud.



As a DBR discussion grow's longer, the probability of a debate between UNC and Duke's current teams/rosters approaches 1.

Do we need to revise our version of Godwin's Law? The original statement definitely applied in 2011, but over the last few years the scandal seems to have superseded any discussions about the actual teams. Kinda sad, really, when you think about it.

Although... I guess another (better) explanation could be that UNC just hasn't actually been any good.

Henderson
02-28-2015, 12:15 PM
Wow. This is sad, sick, delusional, pick any word. As I have said from Day 1, the above is the mindset of the vast majority of unc-cheat fans and alums in this State. The person is in 100% total denial. He/She speaks of "false narratives", "untruth's", "Willingham being reinstated to her job = worse case scenario", and more importantly goes on and on about the "Core" and then slams Holden Thorpe for actually putting academics first. How awful of him. I mean you would think that these universities are there to just provide an education or something. Don't these people get the fact that the primary goal is to win athletic contests and hang banners??


I also thought the commentary about "getting the wrong judge" was hilarious. You mean they somehow managed to draw a judge in this state with no affiliation to unc-cheat? What are those odds??

You need to spend more time on IC to buffer your shock and amazement.

If IC represents some sort of core UNC constiuency, that core lives in a group-think, see-no-evil, delusional bunker. It's actually pretty funny.

I recommend checking it out. Lance Thomas, all schools do it, no one sees the truth, K-rat is evil ergo, the refs are against UNC and pro-Duke, why is there a delay in clearing our name?, UNC should bunker down and defend all lawsuits, their own (Willingham, McCants) are evil traitors, no way the NCAA imposes sanctions because no one in athletics did anything wrong.

An interesting trend, though, at IC: Although very few posters acknowledge the seriousness of the scandal and its repercussions, many long time posters are starting to say that Roy should have a successor soon. I'm not sure it means anything, but IC has a substantial minority that thinks Roy (God though he is) has lost it and should move on. Not because he cheated by playing ineligible players, or because of the unfair scandal that resulted, but because he's been losing games.

After a while, you get used to it. Like spending time in North Korea.

OldPhiKap
02-28-2015, 01:48 PM
Do we need to revise our version of Godwin's Law? The original statement definitely applied in 2011, but over the last few years the scandal seems to have superseded any discussions about the actual teams. Kinda sad, really, when you think about it.

Although... I guess another (better) explanation could be that UNC just hasn't actually been any good.

Y'know who else skipped class a lot?

Hitler.

Henderson
02-28-2015, 02:05 PM
Y'know who else skipped class a lot?

Hitler.

Oh, great. And who's going to pay for the premium coffee I just spewed all over my computer?

Tripping William
02-28-2015, 06:01 PM
Oh, great. And who's going to pay for the premium coffee I just spewed all over my computer?

Joseph Goebbels, duh. ;)

Duke76
02-28-2015, 06:59 PM
Wow. This is sad, sick, delusional, pick any word. As I have said from Day 1, the above is the mindset of the vast majority of unc-cheat fans and alums in this State. The person is in 100% total denial. He/She speaks of "false narratives", "untruth's", "Willingham being reinstated to her job = worse case scenario", and more importantly goes on and on about the "Core" and then slams Holden Thorpe for actually putting academics first. How awful of him. I mean you would think that these universities are there to just provide an education or something. Don't these people get the fact that the primary goal is to win athletic contests and hang banners??


I also thought the commentary about "getting the wrong judge" was hilarious. You mean they somehow managed to draw a judge in this state with no affiliation to unc-cheat? What are those odds??

would like to hear your thoughts on the Wall St. Journal article

94duke
02-28-2015, 10:33 PM
Improper admissions to graduate school to maintain eligibility.

http://www.newsobserver.com/2015/02/28/4589708_former-unc-official-pressure-led.html?rh=1

Faustus
02-28-2015, 11:04 PM
I'm shocked. Shocked, I tell you.

JBDuke
02-28-2015, 11:13 PM
Improper admissions to graduate school to maintain eligibility.

http://www.newsobserver.com/2015/02/28/4589708_former-unc-official-pressure-led.html?rh=1

Wow. And the hits just keep on coming!

Knox I don't have so much of a problem with - sounds like he was a good student and might have gained admission on his own merits - he just needed an exception for applying after the deadline. He even did the classwork. But Michael Waddell is a completely different story. And it's another one outside of the AFAM department, too.

Thanks for the link!

SoCalDukeFan
03-01-2015, 12:44 AM
Wow. And the hits just keep on coming!

Knox I don't have so much of a problem with - sounds like he was a good student and might have gained admission on his own merits - he just needed an exception for applying after the deadline. He even did the classwork. But Michael Waddell is a completely different story. And it's another one outside of the AFAM department, too.

Thanks for the link!

has a unc-ch degree. Those things are getting devalued daily.

SoCal

dudog84
03-01-2015, 01:52 AM
I arrived at Duke from Pennsylvania in the fall of 1980 with absolutely no knowledge of the ACC and its rivalries, but quickly came to despise all things Carolina Blue (under the tutelage of the upperclassmen in my dorm). But in a good way, if you know what I mean. I thought it was the best rivalry in college.

When the "AFAM" scandal (I use quotes because I believe it goes far beyond that department which is being scapegoated) broke, I was kinda happy. Screw those sanctimonious jerks.

But now I'm just kinda sad. How pathetic they are.

tallguy
03-01-2015, 09:24 AM
Improper admissions to graduate school to maintain eligibility.

http://www.newsobserver.com/2015/02/28/4589708_former-unc-official-pressure-led.html?rh=1

This is old news...I mean, just look at UNC's online MBA school ads (courtesy of @SportsChannel8):
4824

Duke95
03-01-2015, 09:53 AM
Go to class Carolina, go to class!

Henderson
03-01-2015, 09:55 AM
Wow. And the hits just keep on coming!

Knox I don't have so much of a problem with - sounds like he was a good student and might have gained admission on his own merits - he just needed an exception for applying after the deadline. He even did the classwork. But Michael Waddell is a completely different story. And it's another one outside of the AFAM department, too.

Thanks for the link!

Yeah, good link. I agree that Knox and Waddell ended up differently situated, but their cases both explode two common myths about this whole sordid period:

1. That this scandal was just an AFAM issue. I don't know why this myth even still exists, but here we obviously have the "PE" department involved; and

2. That this scandal is just academic, not athletic. I don't know why this myth even exists either, but here we have the Athletic Department requesting special academic dispensation in order to gain eligibility for players who otherwise would not have been. Note that the SACS accreditation was premised on UNC's report of the admission requirements for each department, including "PE." [SACS to UNC: "We'll grant accreditation based on the admission requirements you reported to us you were following."] UNC (at the request of the Athletic Department) sidestepped those admission requirements, and there was nothing in the graduate PE department's admission criteria that provided for special dispensation for anyone. They only did it for athletes, and it was NOT what they told SACS they were doing in gaining reaccreditation.

Dr. Rosenrosen
03-01-2015, 11:14 AM
They only did it for athletes, and it was NOT what they told SACS they were doing in gaining reaccreditation.
The question will always remain, does anyone at SACS (or the NCAA for that matter) have a big enough pair to take meaningful action. UNC sure is doing their best to find out.

Seattle Hoo
03-01-2015, 11:35 AM
Yeah, good link. I agree that Knox and Waddell ended up differently situated, but their cases both explode two common myths about this whole sordid period:.

Are these even "myths"? They're UNCheat PR spin that their fans and much of the media (TV) willfully choose to propagate. Good to see the PR firms are delivering value for the millions UNCheat is paying them.

Henderson
03-01-2015, 12:49 PM
Are these even "myths"? They're UNCheat PR spin that their fans and much of the media (TV) willfully choose to propagate. Good to see the PR firms are delivering value for the millions UNCheat is paying them.

I don't know if these actually qualify as myths, but they certainly are constructed narratives without basis in fact used by a group to help explain the troubling phenomena swirling around them. And myth-busting is a noble and useful endeavor. (It also makes for good TV if things are exploding when the myths are tested against fact).

As for PR, I like to reread Dr. Rosenrosen's signature page quote. It comes from a May 2014 commenter, Dave R. Bennerino, on one of the many failed attempts (reported by the N&O) by UNC-CH to embed its reality-challenged narrative in the public consciousness. All that PR money certainly would have bought a lot of peppermint, but you can only deny the stink so long.

Part of me wants the NCAA and SACS to act soon. But then I think, why ruin a good thing? Keep the dribbles coming.

bbosbbos
03-01-2015, 12:49 PM
Very sad to read in IC that many (if not all) cheater fans do not care about the cheating or deny all their wrong doings. The name of UNC actually means nothing to their stupid fans, instead they want to keep cheater Roy and their fake basketball tittles. Very sad.

bob blue devil
03-01-2015, 01:53 PM
so the latest is ugly on the surface, but how much of a problem for u*nc is this?
- the article implies that with SACS it could be a problem because u*nc ignored its own graduate admission standards... does anybody have a sense for the reality of this?
- it also implies that the ncaa could regard the favored application status as an "extra benefit". this seems like a stretch to me, as all big time athletes receive special consideration, but i think i'm missing a nuance... even if someone explained to me the distinction, i worry it may be a case of distinction without a difference.
- more bad PR is a problem, but i'm not sure it really matters any more. most neutral observers see this as an old story and don't care to learn the scale/depth of what has gone on. if you are going to be outraged by this, you already are outraged - i can't say i'm more outraged. and of course, if you can rationalize what has already happened at u*nc/or are comfortable ignoring it, well i don't think anything is changing you at this point.
are there any other angles?
at any rate, more well deserved shame for u*nc.

Henderson
03-01-2015, 02:24 PM
Let me try.


so the latest is ugly on the surface, but how much of a problem for u*nc is this?

The dribbling out of these stories keeps the story alive, and that's an ongoing problem for UNC-CH. I would argue that BB recruiting has already been substantially impaired. And these stories keep that going.


the article implies that with SACS it could be a problem because u*nc ignored its own graduate admission standards... does anybody have a sense for the reality of this?

There is zero chance that SACS revokes accreditation. Zero. But it seems likely they would not feel relevant anymore if they gave UNC-CH a clean bill of health. I could imagine enough outrage at the upcoming SACS meeting for decision in favor of probation. But unaccreditation? No way. Not with UNC-CH. They are the accreditation version of "too big to fail." Perhaps more importantly is the fact that this shows more wrong-doing: If SACS doesn't care, the rest of the world might yet.


it also implies that the ncaa could regard the favored application status as an "extra benefit". this seems like a stretch to me, as all big time athletes receive special consideration, but i think i'm missing a nuance... even if someone explained to me the distinction, i worry it may be a case of distinction without a difference.

Agreed. It's a really weak thread. Gotta let that idea go.


more bad PR is a problem, but i'm not sure it really matters any more. most neutral observers see this as an old story and don't care to learn the scale/depth of what has gone on. if you are going to be outraged by this, you already are outraged - i can't say i'm more outraged. and of course, if you can rationalize what has already happened at u*nc/or are comfortable ignoring it, well i don't think anything is changing you at this point.
are there any other angles?

I respectully disagree. Not everyone knows about this stuff; maybe it's not in their list of news items to follow. But the more it dribbles out, the more people notice. And I don't think there's much of a saturation point for that. Keeping it on the table not only raises questions for UNC-CH recruits and their parents, but it builds by cumulation a commonly accepted narrative that UNC cheated pervasively and that the cheating was not "academic" so much as "athletic".


at any rate, more well deserved shame for u*nc.

And it's because they deserve it. They brought it on themselves and continue to make it worse by not confronting it quickly and honestly. Never too late, I guess, but I'm not holding my breath.

dukelifer
03-01-2015, 02:36 PM
Let me try.



The dribbling out of these stories keeps the story alive, and that's an ongoing problem for UNC-CH. I would argue that BB recruiting has already been substantially impaired. And these stories keep that going.



There is zero chance that SACS revokes accreditation. Zero. But it seems likely they would not feel relevant anymore if they gave UNC-CH a clean bill of health. I could imagine enough outrage at the upcoming SACS meeting for decision in favor of probation. But unaccreditation? No way. Not with UNC-CH. They are the accreditation version of "too big to fail."



Agreed. It's a really weak thread. Gotta let that idea go.



I respectully disagree. Not everyone knows about this stuff; maybe it's not in their list of news items to follow. But the more it dribbles out, the more people notice. And I don't think there's much of a saturation point for that. Keeping it on the table not only raises questions for UNC-CH recruits and their parents, but it builds by cumulation a commonly accepted narrative that UNC cheated pervasively and that the cheating was not "academic" so much as "athletic".



And it's because they deserve it. They brought it on themselves and continue to make it worse by not confronting it quickly and honestly. Never too late, I guess, but I'm not holding my breath.

SACS just started to look at graduate programs in earnest. Many Universities including Duke have not had formal assessment processes in place. They do now. SACs is a thorn but one that can be managed if you show a process is in place.

SACS can still make them jump through lots of hoops just because they can. Unlikely that they will shut them down but they do have power to make it uncomfortable should they choose to exercise that power. In other words, UNC cannot say no to requests because they are "too big to fail". We shall see.

On this issue- folks should recognize that grad admissions at the Masters level is much different than at the ugrad and PhD level. In general - there is much discretion here and simply being a member of the football team - provided the student graduated - could be sufficient for admission. The program takes a hit due to the possibly lower metrics of the student ( as these things may be reported) but 1 or 2 special cases is unlikely to affect things.

Henderson
03-01-2015, 02:50 PM
SACS just started to look at graduate programs in earnest. Many Universities including Duke have not had formal assessment processes in place. They do now. SACs is a thorn but one that can be managed if you show a process is in place.

SACS can still make them jump through lots of hoops just because they can. Unlikely that they will shut them down but they do have power to make it uncomfortable should they choose to exercise that power. In other words, UNC cannot say no to requests because they are "too big to fail". We shall see.

On this issue- folks should recognize that grad admissions at the Masters level is much different than at the ugrad and PhD level. In general - there is much discretion here and simply being a member of the football team - provided the student graduated - could be sufficient for admission. The program takes a hit due to the possibly lower metrics of the student ( as these things may be reported) but 1 or 2 special cases is unlikely to affect things.

Good insights. Sporks. But I bolded the above to make the point that every straw is as important as the last when the camel finally breaks its back.

BD80
03-01-2015, 03:10 PM
Sounds like more evidence for a finding of a lack of institutional control. Also greatly weakens the defense of "just a rogue professor and an overzealous advisor in a single new department of academic study." This helps establish a pattern of indifference to academic standards to keep athletes eligible.

Dr. Rosenrosen
03-01-2015, 04:47 PM
The crime here on its own is small. But when you take all the transgressions together it is nothing short of astounding. I am blown about by the widespread influence that athletics had all over the university and the fact that so many were taken in by the scam and stood silently complicit in support of cheating.

howardlander
03-01-2015, 05:16 PM
The crime here on its own is small. But when you take all the transgressions together it is nothing short of astounding. I am blown about by the widespread influence that athletics had all over the university and the fact that so many were taken in by the scam and stood silently complicit in support of cheating.

It is astonishing. And, not to defend them, but it really does make me wonder how many other schools have essentially the same issues. These grad transfer things have become increasingly prevalent over the last few years. How many of these players are doing legitimate graduate level work?

Howard

BigWayne
03-01-2015, 05:55 PM
Improper admissions to graduate school to maintain eligibility.

http://www.newsobserver.com/2015/02/28/4589708_former-unc-official-pressure-led.html?rh=1

The thing about this that I think is more damaging in the long run is that it shows evidence of another attempted whistleblower being cowed by the PTB at UNCCH and finally going public. Is this going to be like other abuse type cases where more victims come out of the woodwork over time after the first few get in the press?

BigWayne
03-01-2015, 05:59 PM
Nice take down piece published at Mary W's site from a Catawba College professor and UNC graduate three times over. (B.A., M.A., Ph.D., University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill) (http://paperclassinc.com/unc-ch-not-good-school/)

"Objective people acknowledge that a scandal of this length and magnitude occurs only if much of an institution either knew or chose not to know. Many people participated through willing cooperation, willful blindness, or negligent blindness, including students, staff, faculty, and administrators inside, as well as oversight officials, alumni, donors, journalists and politicians outside. So many people have been unwilling or unable to notice and prosecute the violations of integrity that, instead of an institution having a scandal due to a “few rogues”, the true scandal is that the institution has itself “gone rogue”.

UNC-CH has chosen not to be self-critical, not to be truthful about itself and to itself, and not to be moral. It has purposely damaged its own integrity so deeply that some wonder if it can be repaired. How can people responsible for the institution, including leaders on campus and up through the BOT, BOG, and legislature, respond appropriately while they fail to grasp the problem and subscribe unashamed to the values, priorities, and patterns of reasoning that caused the problem? If this level of institutional failure does not reflect on “The Carolina Way”, what possibly could? The worst damage is to the institution’s heart, the whole University, its very integrity. UNC-CH is not “The Good School”, and “The Carolina Way” is in shambles."

martydoesntfoul
03-01-2015, 06:54 PM
Nice take down piece published at Mary W's site from a Catawba College professor and UNC graduate three times over. (B.A., M.A., Ph.D., University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill) (http://paperclassinc.com/unc-ch-not-good-school/)

"Objective people acknowledge that a scandal of this length and magnitude occurs only if much of an institution either knew or chose not to know. Many people participated through willing cooperation, willful blindness, or negligent blindness, including students, staff, faculty, and administrators inside, as well as oversight officials, alumni, donors, journalists and politicians outside. So many people have been unwilling or unable to notice and prosecute the violations of integrity that, instead of an institution having a scandal due to a “few rogues”, the true scandal is that the institution has itself “gone rogue”.

UNC-CH has chosen not to be self-critical, not to be truthful about itself and to itself, and not to be moral. It has purposely damaged its own integrity so deeply that some wonder if it can be repaired. How can people responsible for the institution, including leaders on campus and up through the BOT, BOG, and legislature, respond appropriately while they fail to grasp the problem and subscribe unashamed to the values, priorities, and patterns of reasoning that caused the problem? If this level of institutional failure does not reflect on “The Carolina Way”, what possibly could? The worst damage is to the institution’s heart, the whole University, its very integrity. UNC-CH is not “The Good School”, and “The Carolina Way” is in shambles."

I would wholeheartedly suggest that anyone who has been following this mess read the full piece. It may be the best yet written on the subject. And the most damning.

porcophile
03-01-2015, 07:01 PM
so the latest is ugly on the surface, but how much of a problem for u*nc is this?
- more bad PR is a problem, but i'm not sure it really matters any more. most neutral observers see this as an old story and don't care to learn the scale/depth of what has gone on. if you are going to be outraged by this, you already are outraged - i can't say i'm more outraged. and of course, if you can rationalize what has already happened at u*nc/or are comfortable ignoring it, well i don't think anything is changing you at this point.
.

I'm not sure it's true that anyone who's going to be enraged already is. Although I'm getting tired of waiting for UNC's faculty to rise up in its wrath and demand some serious reforms, this might get the attention of some. Here's what one well-informed friend on the faculty has to say about this latest:

"The egregiousness of this case really needs to be highlighted; it really needs (though I won't hold my breath) a robust faculty response. Here we have [football player Michael Waddell] a 'partial qualifier,' extremely marginal HS grad, who came to UNC and majored in Debby Crowder studies. [Crowder is the "rogue" administrative assistant in African and African American Studies who ran many of the paper courses.] And despite the major, he still evidently graduated with a very low GPA. He never took his GRE and was *apparently* enrolled in undergraduate courses in fall 2003--after he had graduated. (Whoever thought THAT was acceptable?) Then, on September 5--what, two weeks into classes?--John Blanchard [of the athletic department] manages to get Kevin Guskiewicz [of the Exercise and Sports Science department] to make an appeal to Dykstra [dean of the graduate school] on behalf of this guy so as to render him a "graduate student" eligible stay on the football field. Remarkably, he was allowed to enter the MA program (since there was no such thing as a "non-degree" track in EXSS.)

"But wait, there's more. Among the four classes that Guskiewicz indicated Waddell would take that fall was a notorious paper class--AFRI 120. Why in the world would that class be considered a "prereq" for an EXSS grad program (which is what Guskiewicz indicates in his letter)? It clearly would not, it makes no sense at all. It was listed among Waddell's courses only because it was a paper class--a paper class that Blanchard had obviously proposed. (The EXSS 88, Emergency Care, class was also notorious, present on most fb players' transcripts, but it not fraudulent in the way of Crowder courses.)

"Finally, Waddell goes on to show his acute understanding of reality at UNC-CH. Knowing that he's been given an eligibility break and nothing more, he ignores all four of his classes during his last playing season, flunking all so that he could focus on football and the upcoming NFLdraft. I can tell you that this pattern was not exclusive to Waddell or to 'graduate students.' It happened with some regularity with senior fb players, too; they simply checked out academically during their last playing season to get ready for the draft--after all, they didn't have to worry about eligibility anymore.

"The Waddell case is, to my mind, the starkest possible illustration of the twisted priorities that structure the academic-athletic relationship at UNC. Athletic eligibility trumps all--even including, when necessary, the integrity of our graduate programs, the programs on which the reputation of the university rests."

Note the last sentence, in particular: At least when I was on the faculty, graduate programs were serious business. (Mess with undergraduate courses if you must, but keep your g--d--n hands to yourself when it comes to our graduate school.) Of course this latest mess involves only Exercise and Sports Science, which many Arts and Sciences faculty don't think should exist in the first place, and certainly not in their college. The irony is that Guskiewicz is a genuine scholar, whose work on brain damage in athletes is important and respected. That he was corrupted speaks volumes.

bob blue devil
03-01-2015, 08:12 PM
I'm not sure it's true that anyone who's going to be enraged already is. Although I'm getting tired of waiting for UNC's faculty to rise up in its wrath and demand some serious reforms, this might get the attention of some. Here's what one well-informed friend on the faculty has to say about this latest:
...

encouraging to see... although i don't understand how your friend sees this as sooo egregious vs. the, you know, extensive pretend undergrad classes, the forging of grades, the institutional plagiarism, the faking of disabilities, the ostracizing of a whistle-blower, the pretend independent investigation, the double talk to avoid consequences, the hiring of new athletics personnel with tainted backgrounds, etc. how did your friend feel about those things; they weren't nearly as stark examples of the "twisted priorities" as this most recent revelation that involves only one obvious and confirmed really cynical abuse of the academic system? i'm guessing you can't answer these questions, as I assume that you can't answer for your friend and you're not going to badger him/her with this critical perspective. but i'm pretty confused by it.

ncexnyc
03-01-2015, 08:20 PM
I guess my response to all of this is, "So what?"

We've had news about shady dealings going on at UNC for over four years now and nothing really concrete has been done about it. We've had many on this board ignore or turn a blind eye to what was being shown to us, because it was the wuffies pressing the matter. If the fan base of your most heated rival ignored the facts, how can we expect the average citizen of this state, who is probably a heel fan to take the facts seriously?

UNC has continued to deny, deflect, and to attack those who have leveled charges against them. We have a state media that for the most part can't or won't ask the hard questions. We have a state government that is happy to let this cesspool continue to stink up our states reputation for what once was considered the Ivy of the South.

Newton_14
03-01-2015, 08:30 PM
I guess my response to all of this is, "So what?"

We've had news about shady dealings going on at UNC for over four years now and nothing really concrete has been done about it. We've had many on this board ignore or turn a blind eye to what was being shown to us, because it was the wuffies pressing the matter. If the fan base of your most heated rival ignored the facts, how can we expect the average citizen of this state, who is probably a heel fan to take the facts seriously?

UNC has continued to deny, deflect, and to attack those who have leveled charges against them. We have a state media that for the most part can't or won't ask the hard questions. We have a state government that is happy to let this cesspool continue to stink up our states reputation for what once was considered the Ivy of the South.

Agree except on the local media part. Dan Kane has not slept since this started and despite death threats to him and his family, has not only asked the hard questions, has not stopped in his attempt to expose and bring every sin to light. It's unfortunate he is not a sports writer who is allowed to cover games and attend pressers. I am quite sure he would cause Roy to have a total meltdown in a presser and go after him physically.

porcophile
03-01-2015, 08:48 PM
encouraging to see... although i don't understand how your friend sees this as sooo egregious vs. the, you know, extensive pretend undergrad classes, the forging of grades, the institutional plagiarism, the faking of disabilities, the ostracizing of a whistle-blower, the pretend independent investigation, the double talk to avoid consequences, the hiring of new athletics personnel with tainted backgrounds, etc. . . . i'm guessing you can't answer these questions, as I assume that you can't answer for your friend and you're not going to badger him/her with this critical perspective. but i'm pretty confused by it.
Actually, I think I probably can answer for my pal. He has been outspokenly sound on all of these matters from the beginning and I doubt that he personally sees this latest as more outrageous than the rest. I think his point, though, is that many other faculty members might, because compromising the graduate program could affect UNC's reputation in the academic world (and thus their own prestige) more than anything that goes on elsewhere in the university. That may be a regrettable fact about American academia, but I think it is a fact. Certainly the faculty's quiescence has been one of the great disappointments of this whole business, but if their self-interest is involved they might get off their behinds. Anyway, we can hope.

bob blue devil
03-01-2015, 09:00 PM
Actually, I think I probably can answer for my pal. He has been outspokenly sound on all of these matters from the beginning and I doubt that he personally sees this latest as more outrageous than the rest. I think his point, though, is that many other faculty members might, because compromising the graduate program could affect UNC's reputation in the academic world (and thus their own prestige) more than anything that goes on elsewhere in the university. That may be a regrettable fact about American academia, but I think it is a fact. Certainly the faculty's quiescence has been one of the great disappointments of this whole business, but if their self-interest is involved they might get off their behinds. Anyway, we can hope.

ok, so (and don't let me put words in your mouth), your friend already fell in the outraged camp, and, according to him,
The egregiousness of this case really needs to be highlighted; it really needs (though I won't hold my breath) a robust faculty response. so he's not holding his breath that people who haven't been outraged will change. right?

Henderson
03-01-2015, 09:42 PM
There should be a list of People Who Are Doo Doo Heads Because They Hate Carolina and Therefore Goodness Itself. Or the "Pewodobecagsi" as they are known. Only mentioned because so many of them occur to me right away. I'm collecting, so please send me your nominations.

Dan Kane
Mary Willingham
Michael McAdoo
Ken Wainstein
Coach K
Dick Vitale
NCSU (all of it)
Duke and all its Minions
Rashad McCants
The NCAA
Jay Smith
Gregg Easterbrook
The UNC-CH History Department
Seth Greenberg
SACS
NCAA
Fran Fraschilla
All Basketball Officials
The Raleigh N&O
Debbie Crowder (the newer version)
Carol Folt, the Traitor-Compromiser

bob blue devil
03-01-2015, 09:54 PM
There should be a list of People Who Are Doo Doo Heads Because They Hate Carolina and Therefore Goodness Itself. Or the "Pewodobecagsi" as they are known. Only mentioned because so many of them occur to me right away. I'm collecting, so please send me your nominations.

Dan Kane
Mary Willingham
Michael McAdoo
Ken Wainstein
Coach K
Dick Vitale
NCSU (all of it)
Duke and all its Minions
Rashad McCants
The NCAA
Jay Smith
Gregg Easterbrook
The UNC-CH History Department
Seth Greenberg
SACS
NCAA
Fran Fraschilla
All Basketball Officials
The Raleigh N&O
Debbie Crowder (the newer version)
Carol Folt, the Traitor-Compromiser

how could you forget the wuffies?!?!? are they in an even more nefarious category?

CameronBornAndBred
03-01-2015, 09:57 PM
Waddell is one of several athletes UNC athletics officials sought to keep eligible to play by getting them into graduate school, according to Cheryl Thomas, the graduate school’s admissions director from 2002 to 2010. Thomas, 51, who no longer works in higher education, supplied documentation about Waddell to The N&O after first sending it to the NCAA and the agency that accredits the university.
I didn't catch the timeline for that event, was this present day or years back? I'm assuming it means very recently.

kmspeaks
03-01-2015, 10:00 PM
There should be a list of People Who Are Doo Doo Heads Because They Hate Carolina and Therefore Goodness Itself. Or the "Pewodobecagsi" as they are known. Only mentioned because so many of them occur to me right away. I'm collecting, so please send me your nominations.

Dan Kane
Mary Willingham
Michael McAdoo
Ken Wainstein
Coach K
Dick Vitale
NCSU (all of it)
Duke and all its Minions
Rashad McCants
The NCAA
Jay Smith
Gregg Easterbrook
The UNC-CH History Department
Seth Greenberg
SACS
NCAA
Fran Fraschilla
All Basketball Officials
The Raleigh N&O
Debbie Crowder (the newer version)
Carol Folt, the Traitor-Compromiser

In my head this is in Dr. Cox rant voice (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL-8aTVl0Qc) and it makes it even funnier.

porcophile
03-01-2015, 10:24 PM
so he's not holding his breath that people who haven't been outraged will change. right?
No, he's not holding his breath. Neither am I. But, as I said, we can hope.

devil84
03-01-2015, 11:00 PM
I didn't catch the timeline for that event, was this present day or years back? I'm assuming it means very recently.

Very recently, according to this N&O article (http://www.newsobserver.com/2015/02/28/4589708/former-unc-official-pressure-led.html):
Former federal prosecutor Kenneth Wainstein’s critical report on the scandal caused Thomas to come forward. Shortly after his report came out in October, she sent the correspondence regarding Waddell to Wainstein, the NCAA and the commission that accredits UNC. She said all acknowledged receiving the correspondence, but after nearly three months with no further contact, she reached out to The News & Observer in January.

porcophile
03-02-2015, 09:43 AM
There should be a list of People Who Are Doo Doo Heads Because They Hate Carolina and Therefore Goodness Itself. . . . I'm collecting, so please send me your nominations.

You could add Art Pope. My favorite of the many wild conspiracy theories advanced at Inside Carolina is that this is all part of his plan to bring down UNC. You know, bring down the football team and the university will follow. True, it didn't have legs, but someone tried it out.

weezie
03-02-2015, 05:52 PM
Sorry if this was posted up thread:

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/writer/jon-solomon/25088642/ncaa-says-it-has-no-legal-responsibility-for-unc-academic-fraud

NCAA says it has no responsibility? :confused:

Duvall
03-02-2015, 05:55 PM
You could add Art Pope. My favorite of the many wild conspiracy theories advanced at Inside Carolina is that this is all part of his plan to bring down UNC. You know, bring down the football team and the university will follow. True, it didn't have legs, but someone tried it out.

Just because they're out to get you doesn't mean you're not paranoid.

BigWayne
03-02-2015, 05:59 PM
Sorry if this was posted up thread:

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/writer/jon-solomon/25088642/ncaa-says-it-has-no-legal-responsibility-for-unc-academic-fraud

NCAA says it has no responsibility? :confused:

NCAA just throwing UNC under the bus before UNC tries to do the same. Popcorn time.

BD80
03-02-2015, 08:47 PM
NCAA just throwing UNC under the bus before UNC tries to do the same. Popcorn time.

We're gonna need a bigger bus ...

English
03-03-2015, 10:47 AM
Sorry if this was posted up thread:

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/writer/jon-solomon/25088642/ncaa-says-it-has-no-legal-responsibility-for-unc-academic-fraud

NCAA says it has no responsibility? :confused:

From my layman's read of that article (admittedly at work, without the time it likely takes to really reason out all the details), specifically WRT Willingham's involvement, it sounds to me like she is backtracking from participating in any portion of this investigation now given her suit and subsequent settlement. I could be completely misreading this, although I doubt it, but it sounds like she's saying 'if the NCAA wanted to talk to me about this fiasco, they should have done it years ago--they lost their chance because I don't want to risk being caught in a lie (or lie by omission) or violating my settlement.' It's understandable to consider, from her perspective, the logic that whatever she provided to UNC over the years would be passed along to the NCAA in an NCAA investigation, but I think we know by now that logic isn't sound.

Again, I'm not an attorney nor do I play one on DBR. Perhaps I'm making leaps where there are none to make.

PackMan97
03-03-2015, 11:43 AM
From my layman's read of that article (admittedly at work, without the time it likely takes to really reason out all the details), specifically WRT Willingham's involvement, it sounds to me like she is backtracking from participating in any portion of this investigation now given her suit and subsequent settlement. I could be completely misreading this, although I doubt it, but it sounds like she's saying 'if the NCAA wanted to talk to me about this fiasco, they should have done it years ago--they lost their chance because I don't want to risk being caught in a lie (or lie by omission) or violating my settlement.' It's understandable to consider, from her perspective, the logic that whatever she provided to UNC over the years would be passed along to the NCAA in an NCAA investigation, but I think we know by now that logic isn't sound.

Again, I'm not an attorney nor do I play one on DBR. Perhaps I'm making leaps where there are none to make.

I think it goes further than that.

Mary Willingham, by the definition of her job, failed to carry out her duties while working for UNC. That is, she participated in and facilitated academic fraud for the purpose of keeping athletes eligible. This could (and hopefully will) materially impact Carolina's Athletic Department in terms of NCAA penalties and cause financial harm. I imagine part of the settlement states that UNC will not sue Mary for lying for all those years on her NCAA clearance reports and in return Mary will drop her suit for against UNC for retaliation. What Mary does not want to do is do something that could create a new claim of harm to UNC. In fact, there is likely language in the settlement that says anything both parties did prior to date X is settled, but if either party does something to harm the other that is not part of the settlement and subject to legal action.

The NCAA knew it could have interviewed her at any time. It also likely knew what UNC had cooking on the settlement. All the NCAA had to do was wait for the settlement and date X to ask Mary to be interviewed and she would have to decline. The result is Mary is the bad gal and UNC and the NCAA can claim the old "We asked, but they said no" line.

ricks68
03-03-2015, 12:46 PM
I think it goes further than that.

Mary Willingham, by the definition of her job, failed to carry out her duties while working for UNC. That is, she participated in and facilitated academic fraud for the purpose of keeping athletes eligible. This could (and hopefully will) materially impact Carolina's Athletic Department in terms of NCAA penalties and cause financial harm. I imagine part of the settlement states that UNC will not sue Mary for lying for all those years on her NCAA clearance reports and in return Mary will drop her suit for against UNC for retaliation. What Mary does not want to do is do something that could create a new claim of harm to UNC. In fact, there is likely language in the settlement that says anything both parties did prior to date X is settled, but if either party does something to harm the other that is not part of the settlement and subject to legal action.

The NCAA knew it could have interviewed her at any time. It also likely knew what UNC had cooking on the settlement. All the NCAA had to do was wait for the settlement and date X to ask Mary to be interviewed and she would have to decline. The result is Mary is the bad gal and UNC and the NCAA can claim the old "We asked, but they said no" line.

That stinks.

ricks

UrinalCake
03-03-2015, 12:48 PM
Henderson - add Charles Barkley to the list. He's been killing the CHeats on air, including his cohost Kenny Smith

DashNative
03-03-2015, 03:19 PM
I think it goes further than that.

Mary Willingham, by the definition of her job, failed to carry out her duties while working for UNC. That is, she participated in and facilitated academic fraud for the purpose of keeping athletes eligible. This could (and hopefully will) materially impact Carolina's Athletic Department in terms of NCAA penalties and cause financial harm. I imagine part of the settlement states that UNC will not sue Mary for lying for all those years on her NCAA clearance reports and in return Mary will drop her suit for against UNC for retaliation. What Mary does not want to do is do something that could create a new claim of harm to UNC. In fact, there is likely language in the settlement that says anything both parties did prior to date X is settled, but if either party does something to harm the other that is not part of the settlement and subject to legal action.

The NCAA knew it could have interviewed her at any time. It also likely knew what UNC had cooking on the settlement. All the NCAA had to do was wait for the settlement and date X to ask Mary to be interviewed and she would have to decline. The result is Mary is the bad gal and UNC and the NCAA can claim the old "We asked, but they said no" line.

I am a longtime lurker but I wanted to introduce myself to the board. Originally from NC, I have lived in Nashville, TN for many years, but unlike almost 100% of my neighbors, I am still a hoops person first. Practicing lawyer (employment & healthcare).

Mom always taught me to be polite when visiting someone's home, so I will try not to overstay my welcome.

I would just like to posit an alternative theory of why Mary Willingham would refuse to talk with the NCAA. She has zero incentive to do so, possibly not only because of a potential legal sanction but because of her future plans. Namely, her future as an advisor to multiple other lawsuits including Rashanda McCants and Michael McAdoo. We don't know what the terms of her settlement agreement are (at least I don't), but the terms certainly couldn't preclude her from being subpoenaed. If she doesn't speak to the NCAA, when she is called, as I am sure that she will be, the NCAA would have no testimony with which to impeach her later should she misspeak nor would they have time to try to punch holes in her statement. I would argue that scenario is just as likely as the idea that the NCAA is being nefarious with its timing. Why give the NCAA information for free? She has a book to sell. Besides, she has said before that her beef is larger than just UNC - she wants to bring the NCAA down. Taking her at face value, she probably sees the NCAA as an enemy - why fraternize with them?

TampaDuke
03-04-2015, 12:22 AM
Potentially interesting development from the NCAA: http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/12413981/new-ncaa-legislation-academic-misconduct-works

Not sure if that hurts UNC in this mess or if it helps provide them some cover (i.e., allowing them to argue that even the NCAA didn't know what the relevant academic misconduct rules were).

martydoesntfoul
03-04-2015, 01:19 AM
I am a longtime lurker but I wanted to introduce myself to the board. Originally from NC, I have lived in Nashville, TN for many years, but unlike almost 100% of my neighbors, I am still a hoops person first. Practicing lawyer (employment & healthcare).

Mom always taught me to be polite when visiting someone's home, so I will try not to overstay my welcome.

I would just like to posit an alternative theory of why Mary Willingham would refuse to talk with the NCAA. She has zero incentive to do so, possibly not only because of a potential legal sanction but because of her future plans. Namely, her future as an advisor to multiple other lawsuits including Rashanda McCants and Michael McAdoo. We don't know what the terms of her settlement agreement are (at least I don't), but the terms certainly couldn't preclude her from being subpoenaed. If she doesn't speak to the NCAA, when she is called, as I am sure that she will be, the NCAA would have no testimony with which to impeach her later should she misspeak nor would they have time to try to punch holes in her statement. I would argue that scenario is just as likely as the idea that the NCAA is being nefarious with its timing. Why give the NCAA information for free? She has a book to sell. Besides, she has said before that her beef is larger than just UNC - she wants to bring the NCAA down. Taking her at face value, she probably sees the NCAA as an enemy - why fraternize with them?

Welcome to the board DashNative! You're certainly welcome here.

grad_devil
03-04-2015, 07:46 AM
Potentially interesting development from the NCAA: http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/12413981/new-ncaa-legislation-academic-misconduct-works

Not sure if that hurts UNC in this mess or if it helps provide them some cover (i.e., allowing them to argue that even the NCAA didn't know what the relevant academic misconduct rules were).

This legislation, I believe, is in response to scandals like those at UNC-CH. It's not that the NCAA "didn't know what the relevant academic misconduct rules were", it's that they're proposing more specific legislation so that future cases aren't caught in the limbo between the autonomy of the institution and NCAA rules.

It doesn't really have any effect on the UNC-CH situation, but will have an effect on future cases of academic misconduct.

TampaDuke
03-04-2015, 11:00 AM
This legislation, I believe, is in response to scandals like those at UNC-CH. It's not that the NCAA "didn't know what the relevant academic misconduct rules were", it's that they're proposing more specific legislation so that future cases aren't caught in the limbo between the autonomy of the institution and NCAA rules.

It doesn't really have any effect on the UNC-CH situation, but will have an effect on future cases of academic misconduct.

I agree, but I can see UNC arguing that the need for more specific legislation shows that the current rules were ambiguous. Don't get me wrong, I'm not buying it. But from what we've seen thus far from UNC, I can see them advancing that argument.

Seattle Hoo
03-04-2015, 11:28 AM
Looks to me like the current rules don't even cover the UNCheat scheme, which makes it just all the more brilliant. You have to admire the minds at UNCheat who developed it the way you have to admire Josef Stalin as a political strategist.

BigWayne
03-04-2015, 06:35 PM
I guess the official Dean Smith mourning period has concluded in Chapel Hill:

http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2015/03/reports-challenge-unc-scandals-1993-start-date

"Since the release of the Wainstein report, the idea that the University’s academic improprieties began in 1993 has gone largely unquestioned.

Now, conflicting information between the Wainstein report and the University’s response to its accrediting agency has some wondering whether that date was created to protect the 1993 national championship-winning men’s basketball team."

-jk
03-04-2015, 06:51 PM
Dang. Dean was smart enough to figure K would eclipse him that early?

-jk

howardlander
03-04-2015, 07:28 PM
I guess the official Dean Smith mourning period has concluded in Chapel Hill:

http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2015/03/reports-challenge-unc-scandals-1993-start-date

"Since the release of the Wainstein report, the idea that the University’s academic improprieties began in 1993 has gone largely unquestioned.

Now, conflicting information between the Wainstein report and the University’s response to its accrediting agency has some wondering whether that date was created to protect the 1993 national championship-winning men’s basketball team."

I saw this and was somewhat impressed that the Daily Tar Heel went there. As I've said several times, there is no shortage of people at Carolina who are outraged by this scandal and the light in which it portrays the University.

Howard

Henderson
03-04-2015, 07:55 PM
I guess the official Dean Smith mourning period has concluded in Chapel Hill:

http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2015/03/reports-challenge-unc-scandals-1993-start-date

"Since the release of the Wainstein report, the idea that the University’s academic improprieties began in 1993 has gone largely unquestioned.

Now, conflicting information between the Wainstein report and the University’s response to its accrediting agency has some wondering whether that date was created to protect the 1993 national championship-winning men’s basketball team."

Drip, drip drip.

JasonEvans
03-05-2015, 09:43 AM
Whoa... Dean's legacy... yikes for Carolina!

Here is the chart from the Daily Tar Heel with the total "irregular" class enrollments dating back to 1989. It is worth noting that pretty much all the athlete enrollments were men's basketball players until the mid-late 90s.

http://media.dth.s3.amazonaws.com/27686_image001f.png

-Jason "I'm not clear if these 'Irregular' classes are known to be no-show/paper classes or if they might have been legit" Evans

OldPhiKap
03-05-2015, 09:48 AM
Whoa... Dean's legacy... yikes for Carolina!

Here is the chart from the Daily Tar Heel with the total "irregular" class enrollments dating back to 1989. It is worth noting that pretty much all the athlete enrollments were men's basketball players until the mid-late 90s.

http://media.dth.s3.amazonaws.com/27686_image001f.png

-Jason "I'm not clear if these 'Irregular' classes are known to be no-show/paper classes or if they might have been legit" Evans

Ahhhh, so it started after the "Triple Crown" year in 1988.

At least, that's my read and I'm sticking with it.

CameronBornAndBred
03-05-2015, 10:17 AM
I guess the official Dean Smith mourning period has concluded in Chapel Hill:

http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2015/03/reports-challenge-unc-scandals-1993-start-date

"Since the release of the Wainstein report, the idea that the University’s academic improprieties began in 1993 has gone largely unquestioned.

Now, conflicting information between the Wainstein report and the University’s response to its accrediting agency has some wondering whether that date was created to protect the 1993 national championship-winning men’s basketball team."
How dare a student paper put out an article criticizing its own university backed up with actual facts!

OldPhiKap
03-05-2015, 10:54 AM
How dare a student paper put out an article criticizing its own university backed up with actual facts!

Sad day when I have higher regard for the Daily Tar Heel than the Duke Chronicle.

CameronBornAndBred
03-05-2015, 12:41 PM
Boxill is out.

Jan Boxill, a former chairwoman of the faculty at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, has resigned from the school after being implicated in an academic fraud scandal, officials said Thursday.
http://www.wral.com/former-unc-ch-faculty-leader-resigns-in-wake-of-academic-fraud-scandal/14492617/

She was fired in October, then challenged it.

BigWayne
03-05-2015, 01:54 PM
Boxill is out.

http://www.wral.com/former-unc-ch-faculty-leader-resigns-in-wake-of-academic-fraud-scandal/14492617/

She was fired in October, then challenged it.

It would be interesting to know when her service date was and if this delay added a year to her retirement calculations.

gumbomoop
03-05-2015, 02:34 PM
It would be interesting to know when her service date was and if this delay added a year to her retirement calculations.

Over the last several years, I have posted more criticism of Boxill than praise of Luke Kennard. That takes some doing.

That she will garner substantial retirement benefits for her "years of service" is galling. I'd prefer she keep working as an active scholar, depending in retirement on the income from her forthcoming, much anticipated, multi-volume magnum opus, Carolina Wayward: An insider's Account of Ethical Dilemmas in the Age of Krzyzewski.

BD80
03-05-2015, 02:39 PM
Over the last several years, I have posted more criticism of Boxill than praise of Luke Kennard. That takes some doing.

That she will garner substantial retirement benefits for her "years of service" is galling. I'd prefer she keep working as an active scholar, depending in retirement on the income from her forthcoming, much anticipated, multi-volume magnum opus, Carolina Wayward: An insider's Account of Ethical Dilemmas in the Age of Krzyzewski.

She couldn't spell "Krzyzewski" if you spotted her the "Krzyz"

PackMan97
03-05-2015, 03:47 PM
Time to throw another rogue on the fire! Boxill and PHIL are now in the spotlight

http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2015/03/jan-boxill-resigns-after-wainstein-report-details-her-role-in-the-scandal
(http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2015/03/jan-boxill-resigns-after-wainstein-report-details-her-role-in-the-scandal)


In his email to Jan Boxill announcing her discharge from the University, Dean compared these independent studies to those offered by the Department of African and Afro-American Studies.

"In addition to the foregoing activities connected to the AFAM paper classes, it appears that you also allowed students to be enrolled in independent study courses in the Department of Philosophy that involved minimal academic expectations and that were offered at times to accommodate student-athletes," Dean said in his letter to Boxill.

Geoffrey Sayre-McCord, a former chairman of the philosophy department, said in November that 160 independent studies is an unusually large number. Current department chairman Marc Lang said in November that he can count the number of independent studies he has taught at UNC on one hand.

Report: Boxill was fully aware

The Wainstein report said Boxill was fully aware of how the classes were conducted, including Crowder’s role.

Between 1999 and 2009, there were 114 women’s basketball players enrolled in paper classes and the players were encouraged to take these classes by Boxill.

Following secretary Deborah Crowder’s retirement in 2009, Julius Nyang’oro, the former chairman of the African and Afro-American studies department, took a more hands-on role with the paper classes, enrolling athletes and creating classes himself. While enrollment became more difficult for athletes with Nyang’oro in charge, Boxill was still able to place her players in his fake classes, the Wainstein report said.

“In fact, one email chain suggests that Nyang’oro would not consider a women’s basketball player’s request to enroll in one of his paper classes unless Boxill explicitly supports her request,” the report said.

bob blue devil
03-05-2015, 05:55 PM
Time to throw another rogue on the fire! Boxill and PHIL are now in the spotlight

http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2015/03/jan-boxill-resigns-after-wainstein-report-details-her-role-in-the-scandal
(http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2015/03/jan-boxill-resigns-after-wainstein-report-details-her-role-in-the-scandal)

and the logical issue U*NC faces with SACS becomes even more impossible to ignore:
- In Nov 2014, SACS says Holden Thorpe made some inaccurate representations in the previous inquiry, calls into question U*NC's integrity (see paragraph 3 and list following (http://oira.unc.edu/files/2014/11/UNC-Chapel-Hill.pdf))
- In Jan 2015, UNC responds, making statements like, the Wainstein report "confirmed prior findings that the instructional irregularities were limited to a single department" (see paragraph 1 in "Independent Investigation Findings" (http://www.unc.edu/sacs/Jan2015/Reports/Overview.html))
- But now we have Jim Dean, back in Oct 2014, informing Boxhill she's terminated for a number of things, including arranging independent studies in Philosophy that had "minimal expectations" (see bullet 2 on page 2 (http://3qh929iorux3fdpl532k03kg.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Jan-Boxill-10-22-14-Notice-of-Intent-to-Discharge-00079652xACADD.pdf))

is u*nc going to argue those philosophy independent studies with "minimal expectations" scheduled to accommodate athletes are not "instructional irregularities"? it seems clear unc has lied to SACS, after SACS just called unc out for lying during the last inquiry!

Duke95
03-05-2015, 07:47 PM
Ethics professor. LOL.

BigWayne
03-06-2015, 02:38 AM
Extremely entertaining take on the Boxill announcement over at Bob Lee Says. (http://www.bobleesays.com/Blogs/BobLee-Says/March-2015/Spiro-Agnew,-Lizzie-Borden-and-JAN-BOXILL.aspx)

"The clowns just keep pouring out of the little tiny car over in Chapel Hill."

"I mean REALLY. They could force feed Ramses 246 greasy burritos and he could not generate a pile o’ crap this high. "

"With full malice aforethought, Boxill was doublechin deep in the paper class scam for years.... and now she wants to retire with full benefits. Who does she think she is – Dickie Baddour?"

"The first member of the UNC-CH Gang to ever man-up (or Jan-up!) and actually accept accountability for their crimes of omissions and/or commission will be The First. Wonder if Jan Boxill gets a building named for her? Surely she wasn’t in The Klan too. Or was she? Check with Coach Hatchell."

Dr. Rosenrosen
03-06-2015, 06:49 AM
Extremely entertaining take on the Boxill announcement over at Bob Lee Says. (http://www.bobleesays.com/Blogs/BobLee-Says/March-2015/Spiro-Agnew,-Lizzie-Borden-and-JAN-BOXILL.aspx)

"The clowns just keep pouring out of the little tiny car over in Chapel Hill."

"I mean REALLY. They could force feed Ramses 246 greasy burritos and he could not generate a pile o’ crap this high. "

"With full malice aforethought, Boxill was doublechin deep in the paper class scam for years.... and now she wants to retire with full benefits. Who does she think she is – Dickie Baddour?"

"The first member of the UNC-CH Gang to ever man-up (or Jan-up!) and actually accept accountability for their crimes of omissions and/or commission will be The First. Wonder if Jan Boxill gets a building named for her? Surely she wasn’t in The Klan too. Or was she? Check with Coach Hatchell."
"Did Gene Chizik run his own due diligence on this crowd before he signed? He needs to protect HIS reputation."

BigWayne
03-06-2015, 01:21 PM
File these under the topic: Things Roy was not happy to see in the NCAA PR on Syracuse

"Additionally, many of the academic violations stemmed from his (Boeheim) director of basketball operations, who the head basketball coach handpicked to address academic matters in the program. "

"the director of basketball operations and a men’s basketball receptionist violated ethical conduct rules when working to restore the eligibility of a men’s basketball student."

"“Improper institutional involvement and influence in a student’s academic work in order to gain or maintain eligibility is a violation of NCAA rules and a violation of the most fundamental core values of the NCAA and higher education,”"

"From 2010 through 2012, a support services mentor, who would later become the receptionist involved in the 2012 academic misconduct, and a support services tutor provided impermissible academic assistance to three men’s basketball students."

Tom B.
03-06-2015, 01:27 PM
"Did Gene Chizik run his own due diligence on this crowd before he signed? He needs to protect HIS reputation."

Heck, I even thought this line was funny:

"Maybe it’s a conspiracy. Coach K got worried that Chansky was actually going to get him fired over The Sulaimon Dilemma. So Mike cuts a deal with Jan Boxill to run interference for him and Kevin (White) with this latest Beyond Belief Retirement Coronation & Deification Announcement."

Other gems:

"Oh.... Dean Provost actually DID drop the hammer on Jan in one sense. She is not allowed to be the PA Announcer for Field Hockey any longer. NOOOOO! Ohhhh, the inhumanity......"

"Oh, and Dean dropped Boxill as Chair of some screwy UNC Ethics Center thingamajig. That's like Golden Corral canceling Jeffrey Dahmer's frequent diner card."

"And amid it all.... Mary & Jay’s Book is out now. There’s been enough new sewage floating to the surface of the UNC Septic Tank for them to start on a 2nd book."

porcophile
03-11-2015, 02:57 PM
Pretty quiet on here. I've been reduced to reading Pack Pride for my daily dose of outrage. Maybe the new Sports Illustrated, with an article titled "How Carolina Lost Its Way," will stir things up.

BigWayne
03-11-2015, 03:38 PM
Pretty quiet on here. I've been reduced to reading Pack Pride for my daily dose of outrage. Maybe the new Sports Illustrated, with an article titled "How Carolina Lost Its Way," will stir things up.

Well, it might when it gets online. So far, it's just a headline on a cover shot.

4870

Tom B.
03-11-2015, 05:15 PM
Well, it might when it gets online. So far, it's just a headline on a cover shot.

4870

Judging by that cover shot, it looks like there will also be a story on Rasheed.

CameronBornAndBred
03-11-2015, 05:27 PM
Judging by that cover shot, it looks like there will also be a story on Rasheed.
If it's a story with any actual facts, it would be welcomed.

devildeac
03-11-2015, 05:30 PM
If it's a story with any actual facts, it would be welcomed.

My anonymous sources said don't count on it:rolleyes:.

PackMan97
03-12-2015, 12:17 PM
Re: The SI story

It's written by a UNC grad and initial reports have it as pretty harsh on Carolina. A nice 7 page spread in print is going to leave a mark.

Tom B.
03-12-2015, 03:37 PM
Re: The SI story

It's written by a UNC grad and initial reports have it as pretty harsh on Carolina. A nice 7 page spread in print is going to leave a mark.

Yes, it's written by S.L. Price, who is indeed a Carolina grad. Will be interesting to see how he tackles the story.

PackMan97
03-12-2015, 04:07 PM
Yes, it's written by S.L. Price, who is indeed a Carolina grad. Will be interesting to see how he tackles the story.

A bit of deification for Dean E. Smith, but the rest was pretty scathing. Regardless, this is probably the biggest venue the scandal has gotten to date. You can't beat a 20+ page spread in Sports Illustrated. That copy will be hanging around every doctors office, dentists office and barber shop in the nation for the next few months.

Talks about back in the '80s when everything was by the rules, Carolina would use a class like "Art Instruction for Elementary Teachers" to keep questionable athletes eligible. Talked about how they'd learn to make turkeys out of pinecones and get college credit for the feat. However, they rationalized it because this was a real course and they made real pinecone turkeys. :rolleyes:

It's a bit sad to think even courses like that weren't easy enough to keep some eligible that they had to go to fake classes.

BigWayne
03-13-2015, 03:29 AM
Yes, it's written by S.L. Price, who is indeed a Carolina grad. Will be interesting to see how he tackles the story.

It is available here. (http://imgur.com/a/AMEwD#0) Posted by someone that did screen grabs on a smart phone.

77devil
03-13-2015, 12:44 PM
It is available here. (http://imgur.com/a/AMEwD#0) Posted by someone that did screen grabs on a smart phone.

Thanks Big Wayne. It's a pretty brutal recounting that will infuriate the faithful. While those who have closely followed the scandal will not find much new information, this long form piece in a major publication gives a broader audience a lot of insight.

Clearly, the current UNC leadership continue to promote the fiction. But the author, for example, ignores Carol Folt's platitudes almost as quickly and dismissively-"Given this level of denial, the hiring of Gene Chizik made more sense." - as Coach K did last night to the Chronicle reporter.

I especially enjoyed the quote from Dean Smith in an exchange with UNC President Bill Friday in 1982. After Friday compared the 1982 Tar Heel champions to the "ethically suspect" '74 NC State Wolfpack, Dean fired back "our basketball program is much more similar to Duke's." Must have pained Dean to write that. Maybe that assertion was true then. But as Brad Daugherty is quoted in the article, "who was the first?" Price doesn't try to answer that question per se, but revealing there was a basketball admit in the late 80's with a 200 verbal SAT, and other tidbits, demonstrates a steady erosion of the Carolina Way under Smith and potential fraud by the time of the 1993 championship.

I chuckled at this quote from professor Reed, who was on the special admission committee in the '80s,: "It was a charade at times, but it was within the rules." It epitomizes the original meaning of the Carolina Way-Of course we're cutting corners, but at least it's not cheating.

wsb3
03-13-2015, 01:16 PM
It is available here. (http://imgur.com/a/AMEwD#0) Posted by someone that did screen grabs on a smart phone.

Thanks BigWayne for sharing. Wow. What a remarkable article. I love the quote about Roy not knowing about the sham classes.

Reading some of the stuff about the 80's brings to mind people I know who were in school at UNC then and they talked about the type things done to keep athletes eligible. They were & I am sure still are die hard Carolina fans but they were honest about what price it cost.

Henderson
03-13-2015, 01:28 PM
Thanks BigWayne for sharing. Wow. What a remarkable article. I love the quote about Roy not knowing about the sham classes.

Reading some of the stuff about the 80's brings to mind people I know who were in school at UNC then and they talked about the type things done to keep athletes eligible. They were & I am sure still are die hard Carolina fans but they were honest about what price it cost.

Thanks for the link, BigWayne.

My impression was that the article presented no new facts. But it's interesting to see an SI print edition on the whole thing (coverage = better). And the article does reemphasize facts about the (clear to me at least) illegitamacy of the 2005 banner.

Perhaps more importantly, the article further exposed the rift between those at UNC-CH whose heads are in the sand and those who think something went excrutiatingly wrong for a lot of years. And it feels personal to them. I wouldn't underestimate the effect of further groundswells among alums who have been pasted with this awfulness.

When rational voices become OK, there are likely to be more of them.

oldnavy
03-13-2015, 02:51 PM
Thanks BigWayne for sharing. Wow. What a remarkable article. I love the quote about Roy not knowing about the sham classes.

Reading some of the stuff about the 80's brings to mind people I know who were in school at UNC then and they talked about the type things done to keep athletes eligible. They were & I am sure still are die hard Carolina fans but they were honest about what price it cost.

Me too!

The most telling thing to me is Roy wanting to claim that he in some way should be credited for "discovering" that the players were clustering, yet at the same time claim to have no knowledge of anything out of whack.

If he didn't "think or know" that fraud was occurring, then why would Ol Roy give a rat's behind what classes his players were taking?

AND, if he thought that they were being steered to these classes by the academic advisors, then it seems pretty clear that it would be obvious that this was not just an academic issue since it impacted the BB team a level that Roy felt compelled to act.

I can't wait to hear what the NCAA is going to do with this after they basically blew Boeheim up for the Syracuse mess....

If not knowing is not an excuse, then how about knowing enough to act, but not reporting what you were "suspicious" of and hiding behind the "I wasn't supposed to get involved with the academics" claim?

Is the mountain man really going to say he was intimidated by the academicians into not getting involved in something that could potentially jeopardize the entire legacy of UNC basketball??

You can't be a fighter and be someone who cowers from action against a bunch of professors.... Roy that dog wont hunt!

wncgrad
03-13-2015, 02:52 PM
Thanks for the link, BigWayne.

My impression was that the article presented no new facts. But it's interesting to see an SI print edition on the whole thing (coverage = better). And the article does reemphasize facts about the (clear to me at least) illegitamacy of the 2005 banner.

Perhaps more importantly, the article further exposed the rift between those at UNC-CH whose heads are in the sand and those who think something went excrutiatingly wrong for a lot of years. And it feels personal to them. I wouldn't underestimate the effect of further groundswells among alums who have been pasted with this awfulness.

When rational voices become OK, there are likely to be more of them.


I do think the article has a sentence that goes to the heart of the matter: "As the athletic budget expanded from 9.1 million in 1984 to 83 million last year, no one in power saw that a department with that much weight would seduce, intimidate or alter everything in its orbit." Of course UNC has both an athletic and academic scandal. When the university built the Dean Dome, replaced the original Kenan Field House with a NFL worthy facility and added seats to the football stadium, some way had to be found to keep the athletic culture going and academics were sucked in in an unprecedented way.
Sadly this is happening all over the country in varying degrees. I wonder when schools the size of Duke or Wake Forest will reach the point and admit that they can no longer afford "big time" athletics financially and in relation to the primary purpose of an institution of higher education. I acknowledge a value in athletics and I will root for my alma mater and its athletes as long as they are bona fide students regardless of what division they play in.

ikiru36
03-13-2015, 04:04 PM
Me too!

The most telling thing to me is Roy wanting to claim that he in some way should be credited for "discovering" that the players were clustering, yet at the same time claim to have no knowledge of anything out of whack.

If he didn't "think or know" that fraud was occurring, then why would Ol Roy give a rat's behind what classes his players were taking?

AND, if he thought that they were being steered to these classes by the academic advisors, then it seems pretty clear that it would be obvious that this was not just an academic issue since it impacted the BB team a level that Roy felt compelled to act.

I can't wait to hear what the NCAA is going to do with this after they basically blew Boeheim up for the Syracuse mess....

If not knowing is not an excuse, then how about knowing enough to act, but not reporting what you were "suspicious" of and hiding behind the "I wasn't supposed to get involved with the academics" claim?

Is the mountain man really going to say he was intimidated by the academicians into not getting involved in something that could potentially jeopardize the entire legacy of UNC basketball??

You can't be a fighter and be someone who cowers from action against a bunch of professors.... Roy that dog wont hunt!

Old Navy,

I think the "I made 'em change majors, so there" defense is even more hollow than it is sometimes made out. I'll reshare the following from a post I made elsewhere:

"I think that there is altogether too much focus on trying to parse the meaning of reduced majoring in AFAM Studies (a line of inquiry offered as defense by Williams himself) during Williams' tenure. Instead, the focus should be squarely on the number of bogus courses being taken by Men's Basketball players, since that is the actual crime. As already noted elsewhere, while majoring in African American Studies probably is some indication of an increased likelihood of having taken such courses, it is neither a necessary nor sufficient condition for having been enrolled in the sham paper classes at all.

In any event, elsewhere in the Wainstein report it is noted that "There were 54 basketball player enrollments in AFAM independent studies during Dean Smith's 36 years, 17 during Bill Guthridge's three years, 42 during Matt Doherty's three years, and 167 in Williams' 11 years."

Let's do the math:
Dean Smith - 1.5 per year (though if the scandal began in 1993, Dean was only involved for 4 years, bringing his average up to 13.5 per year. In fairness, more of the classes during Dean's full tenure were likely legitimate courses, but who knows?)
Bill Guthridge - 5.67 per year
Matt Doherty - 14 per year
Roy Williams - 15.18 per year (though if this practice was truly curtailed in 2009, Roy's average increases to 27.8 per year)

This math is very difficult to square whatsoever with a narrative that Roy sought a reduction in these courses being taken, over the course of his tenure.

These facts (if I've correctly reported and interpreted the data) point to an increase in these sham classes being taken under the Williams/Welden regime, at the same time there was a reduction in AFAM majors on the team. A cynic (or one otherwise interested in Occam's razor) might interpret this to mean that Roy sought to diminish majoring (which happens to be the one aspect of his players academic pursuits that is PUBLIC and could therefore draw scrutiny), while doing nothing to diminish (and perhaps increasing) the taking of easy/fake classes by his players?

Hmmmm, methinks he doth protest too much?"

Go Devils!!!!!!!!! GTHCGTH!!!!!!!!!!!!

gumbomoop
03-13-2015, 05:13 PM
Although I understand his need to utter the qualifier, I'm saddened that Daugherty said "if somebody did this."

I'm not at all saddened that the author gave short shrift to Folt, who is no more to be trusted than was Boxill. If the SACS reinvestigation breaks bad for UNC-CH because of her lies, many UNC faculty will demand her removal. If it doesn't, SACS doesn't even pay lip service to its own stated values.

In a literal sense this piece may not offer new facts, but it's a major bombshell, written by a UNC grad, quoting several UNC folks as embarrassed and angry. Good heavens, a Pulitzer Prize winner wonders aloud whether he wants his distinguished alumni award from UNC to remain on his wall. It's 20 pages of "UNC's been cheating for a long time." It makes fun of "the Carolina Way." A PR nightmare against which Folt's containment ploy seems, because it is, laughable.

FerryFor50
03-13-2015, 05:23 PM
Lol

Roy pretty much incriminated himself and tried to backtrack.


“I said, ‘Joe, I don’t feel comfortable. Why would all these guys be doing this? It must be the easiest thing. Let’s let them major in what they want to major in,’ ” Williams told me. “Now, I just said, ‘Let’s let them major . . .’ [which] sort of indicates that maybe I thought they’d been pushed. But I didn’t feel any improprieties.”

BigWayne
03-13-2015, 06:05 PM
Easier to read version now available on SI website: http://www.si.com/college-basketball/2015/03/13/north-carolina-tar-heels-paper-classes-ncaa

TKG
03-13-2015, 06:18 PM
My favorite sentence in the article is the following: "No other flagship university had possessed a more pronounced sense of its own virtue;"

OldPhiKap
03-13-2015, 06:20 PM
My favorite sentence in the article is the following: "No other flagship university had possessed a more pronounced sense of its own virtue;"

"The Carolina Way" revealed.

wsb3
03-13-2015, 06:27 PM
“I can’t believe Roy Williams doesn’t know what the hell’s going on,” said Williamson, the former UNC provost and dean. “If I believe that, I believe donkeys fly.”

BigWayne
03-13-2015, 06:43 PM
Mary Willingham has a new post on her blog that explains why she is not talking to the NCAA. (http://paperclassinc.com/ncaa-bs-bylaw-10-1-failure-to-cooperate-unethical-conduct/)

"At a February 2015 meeting with the NCAA, during which she was warned about her obligation to speak the truth or risk violation of multiple NCAA by-laws, Mary Willingham pointedly asked the NCAA team which of their by-laws protected whistleblowers from retaliation and harassment. The head of the befuddled enforcement team could only respond: there is no such by-law “which uses that language.”

uh_no
03-13-2015, 10:01 PM
Mary Willingham has a new post on her blog that explains why she is not talking to the NCAA. (http://paperclassinc.com/ncaa-bs-bylaw-10-1-failure-to-cooperate-unethical-conduct/)

"At a February 2015 meeting with the NCAA, during which she was warned about her obligation to speak the truth or risk violation of multiple NCAA by-laws, Mary Willingham pointedly asked the NCAA team which of their by-laws protected whistleblowers from retaliation and harassment. The head of the befuddled enforcement team could only respond: there is no such by-law “which uses that language.”

buuuuuttttt she wrote a book....

BigWayne
03-14-2015, 02:50 AM
On the topic of warning someone like MW to speak the truth or suffer NCAA sanctions....How exactly is that a threat anyway? Are they going to sanction UNC if MW lies to them? I don't think she is worried about her own eligibility with the NCAA. Are they going to issue a show cause letter so that any other university that wants to hire her to show them how to cheat like UNC is not allowed? Stuff like this makes me think the NCAA will not act until a lawsuit forces their hand.

BigWayne
03-16-2015, 07:27 PM
Being tourney time, this slipped all the way to page 3. However, it just won't die....


Retired prof calling Boxill out in the DTH. (http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2015/03/letter-boxills-departure-far-from-honorable)

"How someone with such a meager academic record could be nominated as chairwoman of the faculty, only the insiders on the Faculty Council can say. "


This video by John Oliver at HBO aims mostly at the NCAA, but hits UNC at around the 7:15 and 18:30 marks (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pX8BXH3SJn0)

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
03-16-2015, 08:40 PM
John Oliver takes on the NCAA and UNC

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/16/john-oliver-march-madness_n_6878508.html

martydoesntfoul
03-17-2015, 12:00 AM
How the NCAA Seized Control of College Sports

A good, brief history on how the NCAA came to be in its present form. If you believe things come full circle then a lot is going to change at some point.

http://www.ozy.com/flashback/how-the-ncaa-seized-control-of-college-sports/39872.article?utm_source=dd&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=03162015

Hard as it is to imagine today — as we gear up for another March Madness stage-managed by an all-powerful entity overseeing the multibillion-dollar operation of college sports — the NCAA was once a rather feckless bodyguard, accustomed to looking the other way while its member colleges canoodled with players. That is, until the two spring ingredients Americans love most — basketball and gambling — got thrown together and cooked in the crucible of scandal, giving the NCAA the chance it needed to take the helm of college sports once and for all.

BigWayne
03-17-2015, 03:20 AM
I think this was the model for the Swahili class segment of the mock video game in the Oliver video:
4885


Also, the Willingham settlement is disclosed through the court now. They agreed to pay her $335K. (http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/education/unc-scandal/article14690462.html)

devildeac
03-17-2015, 09:09 AM
I think this was the model for the Swahili class segment of the mock video game in the Oliver video:
4885


Also, the Willingham settlement is disclosed through the court now. They agreed to pay her $335K. (http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/education/unc-scandal/article14690462.html)

I just read that in the N&O this AM and can't figure out whether that's good for unc or good for the NCAA's case and allows Willingham the opportunity to continue to provide more info or whether she's done talking to them and is only out on the book circuit now to sign, sell and discuss Cheated. Or, perhaps we won't know until the entire settlement is available for the public record. Inquiring/curious minds...

devildeac
03-17-2015, 09:10 AM
I think this was the model for the Swahili class segment of the mock video game in the Oliver video:
4885


Also, the Willingham settlement is disclosed through the court now. They agreed to pay her $335K. (http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/education/unc-scandal/article14690462.html)

Looks like at least a B+ to me:rolleyes:.

oldnavy
03-17-2015, 11:30 AM
Looks like at least a B+ to me:rolleyes:.

NO WAY, A+++ notice that he is actually in a CLASS ROOM!

Heck, summa cum laude isn't out of the question!

DukeDevil
03-18-2015, 08:48 AM
John Oliver with Last Week Tonight focused on UNC during a segment on whether or not student athletes should be compensated

Go to ~7:08 for the UNC segment


https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=669721886490157&fref=nf

dukelion
03-18-2015, 12:47 PM
Well this will ruin any pre-tourney good feelings UNC might have had.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/25112560/north-carolina-academic-case-puts-ncaa-and-its-mission-on-trial

BD80
03-18-2015, 03:05 PM
Well this will ruin any pre-tourney good feelings UNC might have had.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/25112560/north-carolina-academic-case-puts-ncaa-and-its-mission-on-trial

Anyone else find irony in the fact that the NCAA requires "student-athletes" to comply with a 400+ page rulebook, and yet unc had athletes remain eligible for 4 years without reading 400 pages of any sort in the 4 years combined?

bob blue devil
03-18-2015, 04:04 PM
would love to hear everyone's thoughts on this.

off the top of my head:
- forfeit appropriate wins/titles/honors associated with fraudulently eligible players (duh!)
- part ways with Jim Dean for his attacks of Willingham (duh!)
- publicly clarify the true extent of the misconduct (e.g. departments outside of AFAM, involvement of the athletic department)
- accept a severe set of going forward penalties from the NCAA
- part ways with Folt for not showing greater leadership over this mess (and lying to SACS...)
- part ways with Bubba for not showing greater leadership (granted he may be a pawn in this, but he's been a public face leading their effort to not take responsibility - his comments about the classes counting for accreditation and therefore the athletes were eligible and therefore they shouldn't forfeit wins being just one example)
- part ways with Roy for either knowing or for not knowing (or is he like Schrodinger's cat and can simultaneously know and not know?) and for all of the stupid public statements he's made in relation to this
- seek to hold prominent offenders that have left the school accountable (e.g. via lawsuit) or publicly clarify why this is not possible on a case by case basis
- get rid of Gene Chizek (the guy may deserve a second chance, but leave that to an organization not in need of a cultural overhaul)

i know i'm missing some obvious things (help me out), but how can the school move forward without at least executing the above? i feel very strongly about the first two - that these steps haven't already occurred is disgraceful. how can they claim any integrity without taking those first two steps?

moonpie23
03-18-2015, 04:33 PM
would love to hear everyone's thoughts on this.

off the top of my head:
- forfeit appropriate wins/titles/honors associated with fraudulently eligible players (duh!)
- part ways with Jim Dean for his attacks of Willingham (duh!)
- publicly clarify the true extent of the misconduct (e.g. departments outside of AFAM, involvement of the athletic department)
- accept a severe set of going forward penalties from the NCAA
- part ways with Folt for not showing greater leadership over this mess (and lying to SACS...)
- part ways with Bubba for not showing greater leadership (granted he may be a pawn in this, but he's been a public face leading their effort to not take responsibility - his comments about the classes counting for accreditation and therefore the athletes were eligible and therefore they shouldn't forfeit wins being just one example)
- part ways with Roy for either knowing or for not knowing (or is he like Schrodinger's cat and can simultaneously know and not know?) and for all of the stupid public statements he's made in relation to this
- seek to hold prominent offenders that have left the school accountable (e.g. via lawsuit) or publicly clarify why this is not possible on a case by case basis
- get rid of Gene Chizek (the guy may deserve a second chance, but leave that to an organization not in need of a cultural overhaul)

i know i'm missing some obvious things (help me out), but how can the school move forward without at least executing the above? i feel very strongly about the first two - that these steps haven't already occurred is disgraceful. how can they claim any integrity without taking those first two steps?

hashpipe dream.....


unc will fight this to the end of days...

OldPhiKap
03-18-2015, 04:56 PM
hashpipe dream.....


unc will fight this to the end of days...

UNC is the Black Knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

Henderson
03-18-2015, 07:02 PM
UNC is the Black Knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

Yes, except that the Black Knight at UNC says, "All shall pass."

Duke95
03-18-2015, 08:46 PM
LOL. Henderson is obviously in post-season form.

NSDukeFan
03-18-2015, 09:00 PM
LOL. Henderson is obviously in post-season form.

He has been posting all season in preparation for this time of year.

kcduke75
03-18-2015, 09:43 PM
Yes, except that the Black Knight at UNC says, "All shall pass."

Not sure what a spork is, but this deserves all the ones I can give. LOL

UNCheat replies, "just a flesh wound!"

plimnko
03-18-2015, 09:58 PM
https://twitter.com/FOXSportsLive/status/578280763369508864

OldPhiKap
03-18-2015, 10:00 PM
LOL. Henderson is obviously in post-season form.


He has been posting all season in preparation for this time of year.

Henderson is a tough draw under any circumstances.

gotoguy
03-18-2015, 10:21 PM
Henderson is a tough draw under any circumstances.



I've admired Henderson ever since he broke Hanstravel's nose

moonpie23
03-18-2015, 10:31 PM
I've admired Henderson ever since he ******** had that clean block, all ball in that unc game

fixed it for you

sagegrouse
03-18-2015, 10:34 PM
Yes, except that the Black Knight at UNC says, "All shall pass."


LOL. Henderson is obviously in post-season form.


I've admired Henderson ever since he broke Hanstravel's nose

Yep. That's the best thing out of Henderson since Charlie Rose showed up at Duke.

uh_no
03-18-2015, 10:59 PM
I've admired Henderson ever since he broke Hanstravel's nose

"daddy, tell us that story again, the one about gerald henderson and the people's elbow"

mgtr
03-18-2015, 11:15 PM
Unfortunately, the politically correct police have ruled that public humiliation is verboten, otherwise the whole crew at UNC should be brought to the public square and made to confess to their sins. Or, the name of the college could be changed to Desperation University. Or both.

BigWayne
03-19-2015, 01:36 AM
3 minute segment from Fox Sports Live that was mentioned earlier by plimnko. (http://www.foxsports.com/watch/fox-sports-live/video/investigating-the-academic-fraud-scandal-at-unc-031815?vid=415135811566)

It goes into detail of investigating Nyang'oro's motive and basically pokes holes in his story.

CameronBlue
03-19-2015, 01:48 AM
Not sure what a spork is..." It means next Valentine's Day someone should be getting flowers.

OldPhiKap
03-19-2015, 07:43 AM
It means next Valentine's Day someone should be getting flowers.

And every time that someone says "Go to Hell, Carolina," an angel gets its wings.

(Kc, sent you a message on Sporkz)

wilko
03-19-2015, 08:15 AM
I hope the scandal never ends.
Its an encumbrance to recruiting. It gives us an EASY target to annoy Heels fans...
Why to we want it to end?

If it was about PUNISHMENT - the the NCAA should just decree that for ALL Home games for the next 3 (5-8-what ever years) Every Heels fan has to wear a Duke shirt. No admittance w/o a Duke shirt even with a ticket.
If they change in the stadium/areana toss 'em.

I think that would ensure they were never caught again.

nocilla
03-19-2015, 08:50 AM
I actually want it to come to an end next season. UNC should have a very strong team next year since no one significant is expected to leave. It would suit me just fine to have a potential number seed get hit with a post season ban.

TNDukeFan
03-19-2015, 01:16 PM
Just now on the Notre Dame-Northeastern halftime show, Kenny had a problem with Syracuse having the 108 games taken away. "You can't give those games back to the kids who won."
Barkley: "The most important thing is to give these kids an education!"
Interesting...

wsb3
03-19-2015, 01:27 PM
"This is far from a program where student-athletes freely committed academic fraud," Boeheim said. "

Ummmm. I can't imagine the reference here..

Tom B.
03-19-2015, 01:31 PM
Yes, except that the Black Knight at UNC says, "All shall pass."

Excellent. Can't spork you right now, but this is strong work.

OldPhiKap
03-19-2015, 01:33 PM
"This is far from a program where student-athletes freely committed academic fraud," Boeheim said. "



True. According to Google, it is 636.2 miles if you take I-81.

Reilly
03-19-2015, 01:40 PM
True. According to Google, it is 636.2 miles if you take I-81.

... yet is only about a 4-hour trip, per the PJ & Fats Limo Ridezzzz website ...

TruBlu
03-19-2015, 03:46 PM
Just now on the Notre Dame-Northeastern halftime show, Kenny had a problem with Syracuse having the 108 games taken away. "You can't give those games back to the kids who won."
Barkley: "The most important thing is to give these kids an education!"
Interesting...

Nor can you "give" a win to the players on the opposing losing team, who played by the rules, but lost to a team that broke the rules in order to win.

moonpie23
03-19-2015, 03:48 PM
Just now on the Notre Dame-Northeastern halftime show, Kenny had a problem with Syracuse having the 108 games taken away. "You can't give those games back to the kids who won."
Barkley: "The most important thing is to give these kids an education!"
Interesting...

kenny is twixt a rock and a hard place....he's got to stunt for his school, but he knows what's coming....

BigWayne
03-19-2015, 05:40 PM
New article at the N&O about a bit player tutor. (http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/education/unc-scandal/article15350189.html)
Mostly just smoke in this article, not much fire. It seems the N&O started doing some public record digging on her to the point she was compelled to meet with Dan Kane, accompanied by a high priced UNC alum lawyer.

BD80
03-19-2015, 06:34 PM
UNC is the Black Knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail.


Yes, except that the Black Knight at UNC says, "All shall pass."

Philosophical question:

If a "student athlete" does not show up at the bridge, how may he pass?

NSDukeFan
03-19-2015, 06:38 PM
Philosophical question:

If a "student athlete" does not show up at the bridge, how may he pass?

Have someone write a paper for him describing how he would like to pass?

OldPhiKap
03-19-2015, 07:04 PM
Philosophical question:

If a "student athlete" does not show up at the bridge, how may he pass?

"What is your name?" -- Rashad MCCants"

"What is your quest?" -- I seek the Holy Grail ( of hoops)"

"What is your favorite color?" -- "Blue. No, yellooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww"

MarkD83
03-19-2015, 07:10 PM
"What is your name?" -- Rashad MCCants"

"What is your quest?" -- I seek the Holy Grail ( of hoops)"

"What is your favorite color?" -- "Blue. No, yellooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww"

What is the average GPA of a UNC athlete?

With or without AFAM?

I don't ....aahhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Tom B.
03-20-2015, 12:56 PM
New article at the N&O about a bit player tutor. (http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/education/unc-scandal/article15350189.html)
Mostly just smoke in this article, not much fire. It seems the N&O started doing some public record digging on her to the point she was compelled to meet with Dan Kane, accompanied by a high priced UNC alum lawyer.

That 'high priced UNC alum lawyer" is Wade Smith, who also represented Colin Finnerty in the Duke Lacrosse Case.

FerryFor50
03-20-2015, 03:49 PM
I'm going to leave this right here...

4892

crdaul
03-21-2015, 12:07 AM
Check out the March 20 article about how the NCAA has to punish ole Roy..

brevity
03-21-2015, 12:12 AM
Check out the March 20 article about how the NCAA has to punish ole Roy..

I'm guessing it's this article (http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/story/2015-03-20/roy-williams-north-carolina-academic-scandal-ncaa-syracuse-jim-boeheim-college-basketball-tournament)?

crdaul
03-21-2015, 12:17 AM
http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/story/2015-03-20/roy-williams-north-carolina-academic-scandal-ncaa-syracuse-jim-boeheim-college-basketball-tournament

BD80
03-21-2015, 10:18 AM
http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/story/2015-03-20/roy-williams-north-carolina-academic-scandal-ncaa-syracuse-jim-boeheim-college-basketball-tournament

Poor ol' roy. It's a tragedy.

How can't the leading sports news organizations understand how unfair it is to dredge up all of these ancient rumors at such an important time for these fine young men?

Dadgummit, how many times must the university investigate and report that it was merely an academic anomaly? Let's leave the past in the past, and focus on the future!

I confess, I find that there is a very dark spot in my sole (a heel pun)), that enjoys the slow roasting of unc and ol' roy.
Death by a thousand cuts.

BD80
03-21-2015, 10:27 AM
Let's see, that's SI, CBS, Sporting News, and Fox that have run stories on unc's "student athlete" fraud.

I'm having trouble finding the story run by ESPN.

DukeDevil
03-21-2015, 10:48 AM
Let's see, that's SI, CBS, Sporting News, and Fox that have run stories on unc's "student athlete" fraud.

I'm having trouble finding the story run by ESPN.

And don't forget HBO (as covered on last week tonight with John Oliver)

sagegrouse
03-21-2015, 10:50 AM
http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/story/2015-03-20/roy-williams-north-carolina-academic-scandal-ncaa-syracuse-jim-boeheim-college-basketball-tournament

Money Quote:

But soon enough, the NCAA will be coming after him just like it went after Syracuse coach Jim Boeheim. The only question is how soon — and how severe the punishment.

“Our university, we had some mistakes,” Williams said Friday of the academic fraud that coursed through UNC's sports programs for two decades.

And you know what? He’s not getting off that easy.

He’s not walking away unscathed with an all-encompassing throwaway line when he alone could have — nearly 10 years ago to the day — stopped rampant academic fraud that has tainted one of America’s finest public institutions. Just like his friend Boeheim couldn’t walk away from systemic problems in the basketball program at Syracuse.

dukechem
03-21-2015, 05:14 PM
From the ESPN Preview of the UNC game today came this quote from Roy:

"Asked about North Carolina's academic scandal, Williams made it clear that his alma mater has not 'lost its way.' 'We've been going through this for three years, seems like a lifetime,' he said. 'Some people's attitudes or ideas are out in Never Never Land and think everything in the world is perfect. I don't happen to think everything in the world is perfect, but you can make really, really positive things if you really want to.'"

Does the last part of this quote make any sense to anyone?

devildeac
03-21-2015, 05:27 PM
From the ESPN Preview of the UNC game today came this quote from Roy:

"Asked about North Carolina's academic scandal, Williams made it clear that his alma mater has not 'lost its way.' 'We've been going through this for three years, seems like a lifetime,' he said. 'Some people's attitudes or ideas are out in Never Never Land and think everything in the world is perfect. I don't happen to think everything in the world is perfect, but you can make really, really positive things if you really want to.'"

Does the last part of this quote make any sense to anyone?

Sure does, dadgummit. Here's proof:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WisXFOD8Jk

jv001
03-21-2015, 05:45 PM
Sure does, dadgummit. Here's proof:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WisXFOD8Jk

Ok, which one was Deborah Crowder? :cool: GoDuke!

Henderson
03-21-2015, 06:10 PM
Ok, which one was Deborah Crowder? :cool: GoDuke!

She never played volleyball, right? That would just spoil ... well ... so much for me.

Newton_14
03-21-2015, 06:57 PM
From the ESPN Preview of the UNC game today came this quote from Roy:

"Asked about North Carolina's academic scandal, Williams made it clear that his alma mater has not 'lost its way.' 'We've been going through this for three years, seems like a lifetime,' he said. 'Some people's attitudes or ideas are out in Never Never Land and think everything in the world is perfect. I don't happen to think everything in the world is perfect, but you can make really, really positive things if you really want to.'"

Does the last part of this quote make any sense to anyone?
omg. what does that even mean? That's as bad as Miss South Carolina and maps.

Faustus
03-21-2015, 07:16 PM
I think we can translate the latest Royism about Never Never Land to be the famous line of George Costanza's - "It's not a lie, if you don't think it is."

Tripping William
03-21-2015, 07:26 PM
I am watching the Georgia State v. Xavier game in Jacksonville and see the sideline banner that says, "Celebrate the Student and the Athlete." Will they show that during the next game in Jacksonville?

OldPhiKap
03-21-2015, 07:28 PM
I am watching the Georgia State v. Xavier game in Jacksonville and see the sideline banner that says, "Celebrate the Student and the Athlete." Will they show that during the next game in Jacksonville?

Sure. They just celebrate those as two different things.

ChrisP
03-21-2015, 07:32 PM
I think we can translate the latest Royism about Never Never Land to be the famous line of George Costanza's - "It's not a lie, if you don't think it is."

Actually, I think George said, "It's not a lie if you believe it".


That aside, what in the WORLD does that quote from Roy even mean???

Indoor66
03-21-2015, 07:40 PM
I think we can translate the latest Royism about Never Never Land to be the famous line of George Costanza's - "It's not a lie, if you don't think it is."

I think that Roy is channeling your namesake from German lit.

Ima Facultiwyfe
03-21-2015, 07:45 PM
From the ESPN Preview of the UNC game today came this quote from Roy:

"Asked about North Carolina's academic scandal, Williams made it clear that his alma mater has not 'lost its way.' 'We've been going through this for three years, seems like a lifetime,' he said. 'Some people's attitudes or ideas are out in Never Never Land and think everything in the world is perfect. I don't happen to think everything in the world is perfect, but you can make really, really positive things if you really want to.'"

Does the last part of this quote make any sense to anyone?

What a boob of a sage! I'm afraid it won't be long before we miss his comic relief. Wish he could hang around forever.
Love, Ima

gumbomoop
03-21-2015, 09:26 PM
Actually, I think George said, "It's not a lie if you believe it".

That aside, what in the WORLD does that quote from Roy even mean???

Roy sets up a straw man -- that some people, Never Never Land idealists, "think everything in the world is perfect" -- to which he offers the closest thing to an apology of which he is psychologically capable: a tacit acknowledgement of temporary, minimal flaws in the Carolina Way, followed by an easy insistence that realists such as himself will not be deterred by unfair criticism.

He's a fascinating study, an unwitting ironist, now accusing critics of inhabiting the very unworldly realm to which he has clearly pre-retired.

lotusland
03-21-2015, 09:35 PM
I'm guessing it's this article (http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/story/2015-03-20/roy-williams-north-carolina-academic-scandal-ncaa-syracuse-jim-boeheim-college-basketball-tournament)?

The author loses some credibility here.


Two years ago, Williams landed two five-star recruits, including forward Justin Jackson — the best player of any team here in the second round.

Henderson
03-21-2015, 09:39 PM
He's a fascinating study, an unwitting ironist....

And Alfred Doolittle was "the most original moralist in England."

Faustus
03-21-2015, 09:52 PM
Actually, I think George said, "It's not a lie if you believe it".


That aside, what in the WORLD does that quote from Roy even mean???

Yes, ChrisP, that's the correct quote, and even better, huh?

camion
03-21-2015, 11:53 PM
I prefer the Bart Simpson version of UNC self-reporting.

A link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTbgsoHDc24&feature=youtube_gdata_player).

Henderson
03-22-2015, 10:51 AM
http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/story/2015-03-20/roy-williams-north-carolina-academic-scandal-ncaa-syracuse-jim-boeheim-college-basketball-tournament

The quote that caught my eye is toward the end of the article. In it, Justin Jackson say Roy told him that UNC's NCAA problems would not affect him. Jackson says I trusted him then, and I trust him now.

That could be a problem.

Unless Roy and Jackson had an understanding that if the thing blew up, Jackson would be oh-so-gone.

kmspeaks
03-22-2015, 01:09 PM
Guys we really need to leave Roy and unc alone on this. CBS just showed a video of the team in the locker room last night and Roy was helping them write the number 16. They all said the numbers together "onnnnnnne" "siiiiiiiiiix". Really what more can we ask of a college basketball coach? If they win next weekend Roy might teach them the number 8. If any of his players are taking grad classes they'll probably learn how to spell it too.

NancyCarol
03-22-2015, 01:28 PM
Guys we really need to leave Roy and unc alone on this. CBS just showed a video of the team in the locker room last night and Roy was helping them write the number 16. They all said the numbers together "onnnnnnne" "siiiiiiiiiix". Really what more can we ask of a college basketball coach? If they win next weekend Roy might teach them the number 8. If any of his players are taking grad classes they'll probably learn how to spell it too.

Ok that make me choke on my morning tea. I always imagine the fans having hold up signs - one that says "tar" and one that says "heels", this is even better.

lotusland
03-23-2015, 10:12 PM
Good interview with Mary Willingham and Jay Smith. Money quote imo:
What I think sets off the UNC case, in addition to being such a long-running scandal — 20 years plus — is that our administrative leadership has been exceptionally reluctant to admit the meta-cause, the basic cause of all of the fraud, which is the need to keep athletes eligible. They just won't talk about it. ...

http://www.npr.org/2015/03/23/394884826/cheated-out-of-an-education-book-replays-unc-s-student-athlete-scandal

sagegrouse
03-24-2015, 12:09 AM
What a boob of a sage! I'm afraid it won't be long before we miss his comic relief. Wish he could hang around forever.
Love, Ima

Hey, hey! Watch your language!

Kindly, Sage Grouse

wsb3
03-24-2015, 08:43 AM
Good interview with Mary Willingham and Jay Smith. Money quote imo:

http://www.npr.org/2015/03/23/394884826/cheated-out-of-an-education-book-replays-unc-s-student-athlete-scandal

Good link. Thanks for sharing.

Money quote for me.

And then there was just one test at the end and you really only had to answer the questions that you knew or you thought you knew.



I could have done so much better in school under these guidelines.

budwom
03-24-2015, 08:52 AM
Good link. Thanks for sharing.

Money quote for me.

And then there was just one test at the end and you really only had to answer the questions that you knew or you thought you knew.



I could have done so much better in school under these guidelines.

Hey, I got a medical degree that way, which is how I can afford to perform any operation for $99.99, just like Dr. Nick Riviera...there's only so much
you really need to know.

JasonEvans
03-24-2015, 09:43 AM
Good link. Thanks for sharing.

Money quote for me.

And then there was just one test at the end and you really only had to answer the questions that you knew or you thought you knew.

I could have done so much better in school under these guidelines.

Worth noting that the above excerpt describes a class in Education, not AfAm studies. The irony is oh so delicious.

-Jason "the NPR link also includes a short excerpt from the book, Cheated. Well worth reading" Evans

diablesseblu
03-24-2015, 09:44 AM
Dr. Beth Miller, after 40 years with the athletic department at UNC, will retire this summer. There was only a one sentence mention (from the AP feed) in today's "N&O." Will be interested to see if Dan Kane et al have more to say about this and its effect on the NCAA investigation.

From goheels. com:


http://www.goheels.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=3350&ATCLID=209978392

BD80
03-24-2015, 10:22 AM
Worth noting that the above excerpt describes a class in Education, not AfAm studies. The irony is oh so delicious.

-Jason "the NPR link also includes a short excerpt from the book, Cheated. Well worth reading" Evans

The real irony is that many of the unc "student-athletes" at issue CAN'T read the short excerpt from the book