This week in the ACC: 2/16-2/22

[wgl1228]

UVA vs Pitt tonight. Really need the the Panthers to pull out a win. Meanwhile, BC and Miami in double OT at this very moment!

[bbosbbos]

BC-Miami game has been postponed.


UVA vs Pitt tonight. Really need the the Panthers to pull out a win. Meanwhile, BC and Miami in double OT at this very moment!

[rasputin]

BC-Miami game has been postponed.

Postponed yesterday; being played today. In double overtime, as the previous poster said.

[wgl1228]

It was cancelled yesterday. They are playing right now! 84-82 at the moment.

[bbosbbos]

Which channel in TWC?

[SCMatt33]

Miami hangs on by 3 with Hanlan failing to get a shot off at the buzzer (he missed anyway). That game wouldn't have killed Miami's chances, but a loss would have really hurt against the last place team in the conference.

[Olympic Fan]

Just watched Miami edge BC in 2 OT.

Typical of the bad teams that keep losing close games, but BC missed potential game-winning layups at the end of regulation and at the end of the first OT. Down three with 3.5 seconds left in the second OT, they rebound a missed FT, but Hanlon (who had 32 points, including 5 threes) brings it up, then dribbles sideways across court and doesn't come close to getting a game-tying 3 off in time.

A loss would have been devastating to Miami's NCAA chances ...

Three points about what I just watched:

(1) I think Brad Daugherty is a fun commentator, but I hate it when a color analyst doesn't know the rules. Late in the first OT, BC came up with a steal near midcourt. The BC player ended up straddling the midcourt line. He pivots into the backcourt and Daugherty goes nuts -- "That's a backcourt violation!" Then the BC player pivots again (on the same foot, not traveling) so that he's straddling the midcourt line again. Then pivots once again into the backcourt before he's able to get the ball away to a teammate ... and Daugherty goes nuts about a second backcourt violation.

If Brad knew the rules, he'd understand that there was no violation. Before there can be a backcourt violation, possession in the frontcourt must be established -- and that means both feet and the ball in the frontcourt.

Typical of ill-informed telecasters second-guessing the refs when they don't know what they're seeing.

(2) I'm totally confused by what happened with 58 seconds left in regulation. Miami is up one and bringing the ball up court under pressure. BC's Burnett gets up in front of Rodriguez and fouls Rpdriguez's swinging elbow with his nose (that was the only contact between the two, yet Burnett was called for a foul). The refs check the monitor and according to the announcers, they assess Rodriguez a fifth foul with a technical foul on Reed, who wasn't involved in the play. I suspect that they misunderstood and the call was a flagrant one of Rodriguez and not a technical on Reed.

Two free throws for both teams ... but here's my question. LaComte shot the two free throws for Miami (with nobody at the line). Here's where I don't know the rules -- shouldn't Rodriguez have shot the FTs, even though he fouled out? Then he goes to the bench as Burnett shoots his two free throws.

Unlike Daugherty, I'm not going to pretend to know a rule that I don't know.

(3) They showed highlights of Miami's win at Duke. Fair enough -- they were great that night and it's their strongest item on their NCAA resume. But they showed Rodriguez making a 3, then turning to the crowd and making a throat slashing motion. I missed it at the time, but on the highlight, it was blatant. Was it discussed on this board at the time? I didn't see it, but then I was so despondent after the loss that I didn't spend a lot of time on this board in the aftermath.

At any rate, I used to have a fairly favorable view of Rodriguez, despite the damage he did to Duke (I'd never hate on a player just because he was good against Duke). But that gesture is unacceptable. It's BS. My opinion of Rodriguez changed 180 degrees with that film clip.

[Bob Green]

I'm looking forward to watching Pitt at Virginia tonight. Virginia hasn't looked good since Anderson went down with a broken finger while Pitt looked terrific smashing Carolina on Saturday. Virginia is going to need to step it up this evening to maintain their two game advantage in the standings.

[SCMatt33]

(2) I'm totally confused by what happened with 58 seconds left in regulation. Miami is up one and bringing the ball up court under pressure. BC's Burnett gets up in front of Rodriguez and fouls Rpdriguez's swinging elbow with his nose (that was the only contact between the two, yet Burnett was called for a foul). The refs check the monitor and according to the announcers, they assess Rodriguez a fifth foul with a technical foul on Reed, who wasn't involved in the play. I suspect that they misunderstood and the call was a flagrant one of Rodriguez and not a technical on Reed.

Two free throws for both teams ... but here's my question. LaComte shot the two free throws for Miami (with nobody at the line). Here's where I don't know the rules -- shouldn't Rodriguez have shot the FTs, even though he fouled out? Then he goes to the bench as Burnett shoots his two free throws.

Unlike Daugherty, I'm not going to pretend to know a rule that I don't know.

(3) They showed highlights of Miami's win at Duke. Fair enough -- they were great that night and it's their strongest item on their NCAA resume. But they showed Rodriguez making a 3, then turning to the crowd and making a throat slashing motion. I missed it at the time, but on the highlight, it was blatant. Was it discussed on this board at the time? I didn't see it, but then I was so despondent after the loss that I didn't spend a lot of time on this board in the aftermath.

At any rate, I used to have a fairly favorable view of Rodriguez, despite the damage he did to Duke (I'd never hate on a player just because he was good against Duke). But that gesture is unacceptable. It's BS. My opinion of Rodriguez changed 180 degrees with that film clip.

A few thoughts on these. On your 3rd point, I'd assume that the refs simply didn't see it, especially if he turned away to face the crowd. Three refs, 10 players. I didn't see the clip, but unless the clip shows a ref staring right at him from the front (so his body couldn't have blocked the view of the gesture, I wouldn't be too hard on the refs for that. I don't think the job of the refs is to stare at player facing the crowd in case he does something.

On the second point, the box score indicates that it was indeed a common foul on BC and a flagrant one on Rodriguez. As for the call, I'm fairly certain that common fouls are not reviewable, except to determine the exact player who committed the foul or was fouled. Once they called a block on BC, I don't think they can change that on review. Besides regardless of the elbow, the way the play was described (I only heard the end of regulation on radio), it was a block. As for the elbow, the rule was changed in the past few years to make it an automatic flagrant 1 if you make contact while "excessively swinging" your elbows no matter how that contact occurred. The rule is designed to punish swinging your elbows at all for player safety reasons, for better or worse. As for who took the free throws, if found this in the rule book:

The free throw(s) that were to be attempted by the offended player shall be attempted by that player’s substitute unless no substitute is available, in which case any teammate shall attempt the free throw(s) when the offended player is disqualified or must withdraw because he is bleeding or has blood on his uniform or person, or when a player is withdrawn because of a lost, displaced or irritated contact lens.

It seems from this that once Rodriguez was disqualified for his fifth foul, his substitute takes his free throws. The only play by play I could find did not include subs, so I'm not sure if Lecomte correctly came off the bench or incorrectly took them as someone already in the game. Either way, it was correct for Rodriguez to sit.

[gam7]

I'm looking forward to watching Pitt at Virginia tonight. Virginia hasn't looked good since Anderson went down with a broken finger while Pitt looked terrific smashing Carolina on Saturday. Virginia is going to need to step it up this evening to maintain their two game advantage in the standings.

Pitt is getting 12 points from Vegas. If I were the sports betting type, I'd definitely take Pitt + points. (And if I think Pitt + 12 is a good bet, then you would probably be wise to take UVA - 12.)

[Olympic Fan]

A few thoughts on these. On your 3rd point, I'd assume that the refs simply didn't see it, especially if he turned away to face the crowd. Three refs, 10 players. I didn't see the clip, but unless the clip shows a ref staring right at him from the front (so his body couldn't have blocked the view of the gesture, I wouldn't be too hard on the refs for that. I don't think the job of the refs is to stare at player facing the crowd in case he does something

Oh, I was not criticizing the refs for this ... I know things get missed.

I'm just saying this changes my perception of Rodriguez ...

And thanks for clarifying the rule that led LeComte shoot Rodriguez's free throws.

[gumbomoop]

Dixon on the court constantly when Pitt's on D in front of Pitt bench. Not quite 6 defenders, but the refs have to get him off the court.

[Duvall]

Thanks for showing up, Pitt.

[bbosbbos]

This Pitt simply sux. They will not score 20 pt in the whole game. Their players panic when touching the bb. Maybe the bb is too hot to hold.

[Bob Green]

Virginia definitely stepping it up this evening on defense holding Pitt to 15 points in the 1st half. Virginia is up 10 and should be up more as Nolte missed several wide open 3-pointers after his teammates set him up via great ball movement.

I agree it is extremely annoying the way Dixon walks all over the court. The refs need to warn him, then T him up.

[devildeac]

Pitt shooting better 3s than FT now at 3/8 vs 2/9 (no typo).

[OldPhiKap]

Trying to enjoy this UVa -Pitt game. Failing.

[burns15]

Pitt shooting better 3s than FT now at 3/8 vs 2/9 (no typo).

Jaime Dixon, IMO, did a terrible job of preparing Pitt to beat the pack-line. Duke showed that UVA does not play well in transition if you push the ball up the floor constantly. Wake, with Mitoglu, showed that the pick and ballside pop, with a stretch 4, can beat the packline. Every time Pitt has run the pick-and-pop with Jeter and Artis, they have been wide open. Why they haven't run it more, well I would argue that's bad coaching. If you are not getting good shots in your half-court sets, it's insanity to continue to try to run half-court sets. Especially when your half-court sets consist of pounding the ball into the deck for 25 seconds, little to no ball movement, and then an off-balance terrible shot. Not impressed with Dixon to say the least.

[OldPhiKap]

Jaime Dixon, IMO, did a terrible job of preparing Pitt to beat the pack-line. Duke showed that UVA does not play well in transition if you push the ball up the floor constantly. Wake, with Mitoglu, showed that the pick and ballside pop, with a stretch 4, can beat the packline. Every time Pitt has run the pick-and-pop with Jeter and Artis, they have been wide open. Why they haven't run it more, well I would argue that's bad coaching. If you are not getting good shots in your half-court sets, it's insanity to continue to try to run half-court sets. Especially when your half-court sets consist of pounding the ball into the deck for 25 seconds, little to no ball movement, and then an off-balance terrible shot. Not impressed with Dixon to say the least.


well, Roy said that Dixon outcoached him. FWIW.





Perhaps not much though.

[DU82]

Has the paint dried yet in Charlottesville?

[OldPhiKap]

Has the paint dried yet in Charlottesville?

I switched over to Clemson At GT. GT up by 1 with 47 seconds -- how will they lose this one?

[freshmanjs]

I switched over to Clemson At GT. GT up by 1 with 47 seconds -- how will they lose this one?

according to espn, tech is up by 11 ???

[OldPhiKap]

according to espn, tech is up by 11 ???

Yeah, my typo. GT 63-52 final.

[Troublemaker]

UVA's remaining games:

FSU
@ Wake
VaTech
@ Cuse
@ Lville

I'm not even going to bother watching/hoping FSU or VaTech can pull off the upset on the road (despite a close call in Blacksburg earlier this season).

So, it comes down to this: UVA needs to lose two of their three remaining road games -- @Wake, @Cuse, @Lville.

And Duke needs to win out.

I will root to the end, but man, that is daunting.

[Duvall]

UVA's remaining games:

FSU
@ Wake
VaTech
@ Cuse
@ Lville

I'm not even going to bother watching/hoping FSU or VaTech can pull off the upset on the road (despite a close call in Blacksburg earlier this season).

So, it comes down to this: UVA needs to lose two of their three remaining road games -- @Wake, @Cuse, @Lville.

And Duke needs to win out.

I will root to the end, but man, that is daunting.

To be fair, it was daunting before the season started.

[Seattle Hoo]

To be fair, it was daunting before the season started.

Weren't you guys supposed to finish first? UVA was supposed to be fourth, and there were some who had us fifth after Syracuse as well.

I never thought UNC would finish ahead of UVA, but I did think Duke and Louisville would be better. Duke may still be better.

[alteran]

To be fair, it was daunting before the season started.


Weren't you guys supposed to finish first? UVA was supposed to be fourth, and there were some who had us fifth after Syracuse as well.

I never thought UNC would finish ahead of UVA, but I did think Duke and Louisville would be better. Duke may still be better.

Methinks that was a reference to the unbalanced schedule. (Not to take anything away from Virginia.)

[Duvall]

Methinks that was a reference to the unbalanced schedule. (Not to take anything away from Virginia.)

Kind of. More a reference to how tough it would have been to matriculate a schedule with road games against a the top half of the league with only one loss or so.

[gumbomoop]

Weren't you guys supposed to finish first? UVA was supposed to be fourth, and there were some who had us fifth after Syracuse as well.

I never thought UNC would finish ahead of UVA, but I did think Duke and Louisville would be better. Duke may still be better.

Depends on who was doing the supposing. IIRC, many/most DBR posters who made a preseason prediction had UVa below Duke, but ahead of UNC. A few of us had Hoos as ACC pre #1, Duke 2, undoubtedly a reflection of concern about Duke's heavy dependence on frosh, as well as respect for Hoo returnees and especially Bennett. And UVa was generally in national preseason top 8-10.

I agree that Duke may still be better than UVa, but they're both having very good seasons. Hope both make FF.

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

Depends on who was doing the supposing. IIRC, many/most DBR posters who made a preseason prediction had UVa below Duke, but ahead of UNC. A few of us had Hoos as ACC pre #1, Duke 2, undoubtedly a reflection of concern about Duke's heavy dependence on frosh, as well as respect for Hoo returnees and especially Bennett. And UVa was generally in national preseason top 8-10.

I agree that Duke may still be better than UVa, but they're both having very good seasons. Hope both make FF.


I don't no offense to VA or its fans but no casual fan wants to see a UVA basketball game in the Final Four. Again, no offense but UVA hoops is a bore fest most of the time. I enjoy it because I find their defense to be fascinating, and I like to laugh as the other team collectively craps its pants. However, I think the casual fan who doesn't watch until the tournament will be bored to tears. Which in the long run will be bad for college hoops, and viewership. Imagine when CBS has its NBA type guys calling a UVA tournament game and watching as the bore fest ensues. The NBA guys are going to have a sarcastic field day about it. Scoring, athleticism, high energy, fast paced games is what the general audience wants to see during the tourney. A 50-47 UVA win will be not so good for ratings in the Final Four.

That being said, UVA is under no obligation to give a darn about Final Four TV ratings or what casual fans who don't follow them think.

[roywhite]

I don't no offense to VA or its fans but no casual fan wants to see a UVA basketball game in the Final Four. Again, no offense but UVA hoops is a bore fest most of the time. I enjoy it because I find their defense to be fascinating, and I like to laugh as the other team collectively craps its pants. However, I think the casual fan who doesn't watch until the tournament will be bored to tears. Which in the long run will be bad for college hoops, and viewership. Imagine when CBS has its NBA type guys calling a UVA tournament game and watching as the bore fest ensues. The NBA guys are going to have a sarcastic field day about it. Scoring, athleticism, high energy, fast paced games is what the general audience wants to see during the tourney. A 50-47 UVA win will be not so good for ratings in the Final Four.

That being said, UVA is under no obligation to give a darn about Final Four TV ratings or what casual fans who don't follow them think.

Well, maybe, but the Duke 69 - UVa 63 game was one of the most exciting games of the season. Wouldn't mind seeing that matchup again, whether it be in an ACC final or a Final Four.

[sagegrouse]

Weren't you guys supposed to finish first? UVA was supposed to be fourth, and there were some who had us fifth after Syracuse as well.

I never thought UNC would finish ahead of UVA, but I did think Duke and Louisville would be better. Duke may still be better.

True. I don't believe anyone thought that Virginia would be as good this year as last. I hope the Hoos make a good long run in the NCAA's. The ACC's -- not so much.

[gumbomoop]

True. I don't believe anyone thought that Virginia would be as good this year as last. I hope the Hoos make a good long run in the NCAA's. The ACC's -- not so much.

UVa finished #10 in 2013-14 postseason Coaches poll. (Apparently AP doesn't do a post-NCAAT poll.)

UVa began 2014-15 preseason ranked # 8 in Coaches poll and # 9 in AP.

[Seattle Hoo]

I don't no offense to VA or its fans but no casual fan wants to see a UVA basketball game in the Final Four. Again, no offense but UVA hoops is a bore fest most of the time. I enjoy it because I find their defense to be fascinating, and I like to laugh as the other team collectively craps its pants. However, I think the casual fan who doesn't watch until the tournament will be bored to tears. Which in the long run will be bad for college hoops, and viewership. Imagine when CBS has its NBA type guys calling a UVA tournament game and watching as the bore fest ensues. The NBA guys are going to have a sarcastic field day about it. Scoring, athleticism, high energy, fast paced games is what the general audience wants to see during the tourney. A 50-47 UVA win will be not so good for ratings in the Final Four.

That being said, UVA is under no obligation to give a darn about Final Four TV ratings or what casual fans who don't follow them think.

This is indeed the conventional wisdom. I think, though, that in the tournament, the drama of the moment keeps everyone enthralled. UVA hoops really is nothing more than mid-major ball played by power conference athletes. In tournaments, the game generally becomes more of a halfcourt affair anyway. Because every game is do-or-die, every possession becomes more important. Bennett ball just takes that approach into the regular season. The run-and-gun game might be more "exciting" (in the way that watching mice run back-and-forth is exciting), but the Bennett style is more efficient. As "efficiency" becomes more of a buzzword, this is where strategy goes - take away the other guy's easy opportunities and work for your best opportunities.

I don't really get all the commentary about the UVA style. It's really just fundamental basketball. I agree with what Bobby Knight said during the Notre Dame game last year. "You can call it packline or whatever, but that's just good man-to-man defense." Guard the ball, help-and-recover, box out. Screen and cut, move the defense and move the ball, and take good shots, then go to the glass and balance the floor. I used to watch Dean Smith's teams play and whine to myself, "Why can't we play like that?" whenever they made that great cut to the hoop and the man with the ball made the pass. Now we do.

[Seattle Hoo]

UVa finished #10 in 2013-14 postseason Coaches poll. (Apparently AP doesn't do a post-NCAAT poll.)

UVa began 2014-15 preseason ranked # 8 in Coaches poll and # 9 in AP.

Hoos were #3 in the last AP poll.

Really, I think the major preseason polls are mostly dictated by the previous season. I thought we were overrated at the start of the season, but about two weeks into it, after watching Gonzaga demolish SMU up close, and watching a few games on TV, I realized "top ten" doesn't mean in today's NCAA what I had in mind.

[OldPhiKap]

This is indeed the conventional wisdom. I think, though, that in the tournament, the drama of the moment keeps everyone enthralled. UVA hoops really is nothing more than mid-major ball played by power conference athletes. In tournaments, the game generally becomes more of a halfcourt affair anyway. Because every game is do-or-die, every possession becomes more important. Bennett ball just takes that approach into the regular season. The run-and-gun game might be more "exciting" (in the way that watching mice run back-and-forth is exciting), but the Bennett style is more efficient. As "efficiency" becomes more of a buzzword, this is where strategy goes - take away the other guy's easy opportunities and work for your best opportunities.

I don't really get all the commentary about the UVA style. It's really just fundamental basketball. I agree with what Bobby Knight said during the Notre Dame game last year. "You can call it packline or whatever, but that's just good man-to-man defense." Guard the ball, help-and-recover, box out. Screen and cut, move the defense and move the ball, and take good shots, then go to the glass and balance the floor. I used to watch Dean Smith's teams play and whine to myself, "Why can't we play like that?" whenever they made that great cut to the hoop and the man with the ball made the pass. Now we do.

I typically enjoy watching UVa for the reasons you state. But when you get a game like last night -- versus Pitt -- that was just brutal to watch.

I don't think UVa's style will have any impact in tournament ratings. At that point, every game is important and everyone watches -- because you either have a rooting interest; that game is in your region and you want to see who wins; or because you're a March Madness junkie. Plus now, about every game is on -- if you don't like that one you can always flip over to Wisconsin drubbing Wofford (go Terriers).

UVa is a tough out when they are at full strength.

[gumbomoop]

I don't no offense to VA or its fans but no casual fan wants to see a UVA basketball game in the Final Four. Again, no offense but UVA hoops is a bore fest most of the time. I enjoy it because I find their defense to be fascinating, and I like to laugh as the other team collectively craps its pants. However, I think the casual fan who doesn't watch until the tournament will be bored to tears. Which in the long run will be bad for college hoops, and viewership. Imagine when CBS has its NBA type guys calling a UVA tournament game and watching as the bore fest ensues. The NBA guys are going to have a sarcastic field day about it. Scoring, athleticism, high energy, fast paced games is what the general audience wants to see during the tourney. A 50-47 UVA win will be not so good for ratings in the Final Four.

That being said, UVA is under no obligation to give a darn about Final Four TV ratings or what casual fans who don't follow them think.

It's an interesting argument. It must be true, in one sense, that it's in the long-range interest of college bball for the game to appeal to the casual fan. OTOH, to some extent the causal fan's lack of knowledge about the many intricacies of the game seems to lend itself to highlight reels featuring one-handed thunder-dumbs and 3-bombs. I'd hope there'd be enough of us fanatics to keep the game afloat, but perhaps not.

As I say, it's an interesting issue. Focusing on informed as opposed to casual fans, are knowledgeable fans bored by UVa? When I watch them, I see players who execute their superb coach's well-designed systems very efficiently, skillfully. I admire their play, and am not bored by it at all. Had Duke not come back against them, I hope I'd have thought, "Well, the Hoos just played the game better than we did tonight."

[gumbomoop]

Hoos were #3 in the last AP poll.

Really, I think the major preseason polls are mostly dictated by the previous season. I thought we were overrated at the start of the season, but about two weeks into it, after watching Gonzaga demolish SMU up close, and watching a few games on TV, I realized "top ten" doesn't mean in today's NCAA what I had in mind.

I am aware of their latest ranking, but that's neither the point of the post to which I responded, nor the gist of your own post # 26, where, either you implied or I mistakenly inferred, you thought the fact that the Hoos "were supposed to be fourth" in the ACC showed they were preseason underrated. Yet here you seem to say, well, ok, yes, maybe they weren't underrated, but that only reflects their final standing from the previous season.

That seems contradictory: either they were or were not underrated. But I realize my slightly irritated reply here might be pushing us toward an irrelevant pissing contest, so I direct you to my other Hoo-post (^), complimenting their style and their coach, and defending them from casual-fan-boobery.

ETA: I agree fully with your post above, # 34.

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

It's an interesting argument. It must be true, in one sense, that it's in the long-range interest of college bball for the game to appeal to the casual fan. OTOH, to some extent the causal fan's lack of knowledge about the many intricacies of the game seems to lend itself to highlight reels featuring one-handed thunder-dumbs and 3-bombs. I'd hope there'd be enough of us fanatics to keep the game afloat, but perhaps not.

As I say, it's an interesting issue. Focusing on informed as opposed to casual fans, are knowledgeable fans bored by UVa? When I watch them, I see players who execute their superb coach's well-designed systems very efficiently, skillfully. I admire their play, and am not bored by it at all. Had Duke not come back against them, I hope I'd have thought, "Well, the Hoos just played the game better than we did tonight."

I think most mega fans of college hoops like those on this board are not bored with UVAs style. Except when they do what they did to Pitt last night. Of course that wasn't all the fault of UVA's style Pitt just wasn't very good last night. Perhaps, in the Tournament when UVA plays better teams and gets deep the mega fan and the casual fan will find the contrasting styles and different approaches to be fascinating. I don't really know to be honest, I was just making a generalization of casual fans. They typically don't know enough about the game to enjoy what UVA does to its opponents.

I think there are enough fanatics to keep the game afloat. However, I think the goal should be to grow the college game and make it appeal more to casual fans and NBA fans. I know NBA fans who can't stand watching a College game. Of course there are also College fans who can't stand watching NBA action. Unfortunately there is way more money and fans in NBA hoops. With college football pretty much dwarfing everything hoops these days, its a critical time in college hoops history in my opinion. I don't know if there is any way to change that either, college hoops may just be stuck where it is. Which for us is fine because we love it, but I worry about the product we will get in the future.

[gumbomoop]

I think most mega fans of college hoops like those on this board are not bored with UVAs style. Except when they do what they did to Pitt last night. Of course that wasn't all the fault of UVA's style Pitt just wasn't very good last night. Perhaps, in the Tournament when UVA plays better teams and gets deep the mega fan and the casual fan will find the contrasting styles and different approaches to be fascinating. I don't really know to be honest, I was just making a generalization of casual fans. They typically don't know enough about the game to enjoy what UVA does to its opponents.

I think there are enough fanatics to keep the game afloat. However, I think the goal should be to grow the college game and make it appeal more to casual fans and NBA fans. I know NBA fans who can't stand watching a College game. Of course there are also College fans who can't stand watching NBA action. Unfortunately there is way more money and fans in NBA hoops. With college football pretty much dwarfing everything hoops these days, its a critical time in college hoops history in my opinion. I don't know if there is any way to change that either, college hoops may just be stuck where it is. Which for us is fine because we love it, but I worry about the product we will get in the future.

Yes, I have to agree that your concern is well-placed. That I'm one of those fans of college bball who some years back quit watching the NBA tells you all you need to know about my view of casual followers of the college game, not to mention the NBA.

Here's a thought: somehow I was paying enough attention to last year's NBA Finals to realize that the Spurs were ..... different. I watched some of the last 3 games, in which the Spurs played the game -- I'll use the word -- admirably. Was that a moment where casual fans of the college game, knowledgeable college fans, and NBA devotees came together in their admiration of both the Spurs' play in the Finals and their accomplishments in this century?

[jhmoss1812]

Yes, I have to agree that your concern is well-placed. That I'm one of those fans of college bball who some years back quit watching the NBA tells you all you need to know about my view of casual followers of the college game, not to mention the NBA.

Here's a thought: somehow I was paying enough attention to last year's NBA Finals to realize that the Spurs were ..... different. I watched some of the last 3 games, in which the Spurs played the game -- I'll use the word -- admirably. Was that a moment where casual fans of the college game, knowledgeable college fans, and NBA devotees came together in their admiration of both the Spurs' play in the Finals and their accomplishments in this century?

Regarding ratings, the casual fan rarely watches past the 1st weekend anyways. It's really only the more diehard basketball fans that watch the later rounds. So I am not sure how much our style of play matters to the casual fan.

I will be the first to admit that watching UVA games, sometimes, can be brutal. Winning, however, makes it worth it. However, we've played many games that have been a lot of fun to watch too. When we execute our offense, it's beautiful to watch because it's based on fundamentals - great passing, hard screens, pick and rolls, and taking good shots. This is not to say I don't love uptempo games. I love uptempo run and gun games when fundamentals are not sacrificed. However, most every game that is uptempo that I watch is just horribly inefficient. There are very few teams that can run and still play sound basketball. Duke is one of those teams. But there aren't many more. Watching teams like NCSU and UNC play is as painful on the eyes for me as watching UVA is for them. In the end, I think it's elitist and short-sighted to say that there's only one way to play basketball. The goal is to win games and ultimately win championships. If people want to say that Bennett's way is incapable of winning the big one, that's fine with me. Because, so far, he hasn't shown that we can win the big one. But to say it is ruining college basketball is just arrogant.

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

I dont think Bennetts way is ruining college basketball, I hope my comments haven't come off like that. If it has my apologies, not what I meant at all.

Also about the Spurs, as a Heat fan I didn't celebrate your enjoyment of that Finals series lol. However, I do think they played brilliantly and it was a testament to the Spurs and that organization. But through my Heat colored glasses I was sickened by the display of good team ball and quality defense. I actually didn't enjoy last season as much as I am this season as a Heat fan. Watching Whiteside this year blossom into a force has been really fun. Compared to all the pressure and Lebron crap from last year. The Heat will be back just need to rebuild a little bit and get rid of Chris Bosh.

Sorry for taking the tread waaaaay off topic I now return you to Wahoo talk and the rest of whats going on in the ACC this week!! Enjoy!!

[jhmoss1812]

My comment wasn't about anyone in this thread. I've just read on other boards and there's a narrative in the media that UVA's style of basketball is ruining college basketball. Just wanted to clarify.

[gumbomoop]

Regarding ratings, the casual fan rarely watches past the 1st weekend anyways. It's really only the more diehard basketball fans that watch the later rounds. So I am not sure how much our style of play matters to the casual fan.

I will be the first to admit that watching UVA games, sometimes, can be brutal. Winning, however, makes it worth it. However, we've played many games that have been a lot of fun to watch too. When we execute our offense, it's beautiful to watch because it's based on fundamentals - great passing, hard screens, pick and rolls, and taking good shots. This is not to say I don't love uptempo games. I love uptempo run and gun games when fundamentals are not sacrificed. However, most every game that is uptempo that I watch is just horribly inefficient. There are very few teams that can run and still play sound basketball. Duke is one of those teams. But there aren't many more. Watching teams like NCSU and UNC play is as painful on the eyes for me as watching UVA is for them. In the end, I think it's elitist and short-sighted to say that there's only one way to play basketball. The goal is to win games and ultimately win championships. If people want to say that Bennett's way is incapable of winning the big one, that's fine with me. Because, so far, he hasn't shown that we can win the big one. But to say it is ruining college basketball is just arrogant.

DBR had a poll back around New Year re our second favorite ACC team. UVa came in first, followed by NCState. Reasons varied, but several of us expressed admiration for Bennett, and how his guys execute his principles and system. His way isn't ruining the game for me, nor for lots of other DBR posters, I gather. I like his way, told a Hoo acquaintance when Bennett was hired that UVa had found gold. He was skeptical, but then he'd been through a lot.....

If Hoos start beating Duke regularly, I'll reconsider. Probably start posting something like, "Well, have to give Hoos credit, but ....." Thus exemplifying the saying, "Ignore everything before the 'but.'"

[W&LHoo]

And then, relevant to this discussion, this quasi-slanderous article appears on ESPN:

http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/103165/is-virginias-style-bad-for-the-game?ex_cid=espnapi_public

Medcalf literally posits that college basketball fans only like high scoring games and UVA is hurting the entire country somehow by not letting our opponents score on us.

[Seattle Hoo]

I am aware of their latest ranking, but that's neither the point of the post to which I responded, nor the gist of your own post # 26, where, either you implied or I mistakenly inferred, you thought the fact that the Hoos "were supposed to be fourth" in the ACC showed they were preseason underrated. Yet here you seem to say, well, ok, yes, maybe they weren't underrated, but that only reflects their final standing from the previous season.

That seems contradictory: either they were or were not underrated. But I realize my slightly irritated reply here might be pushing us toward an irrelevant pissing contest, so I direct you to my other Hoo-post (^), complimenting their style and their coach, and defending them from casual-fan-boobery.

ETA: I agree fully with your post above, # 34.

My earlier post was in response to somebody saying that Duke winning the ACC regular season was a tall order before the season started, which surprised me because my recollection was that Duke was widely predicted to win it.

I thought before the season that 1-3 was reasonable in the ACC for Virginia with Duke and Louisville. I never thought UNC belonged in that group. Whenever I have watched UNC play the last three years they just have not looked like a well-coached team to me. Duke looks much better this year than last year. Other than Jabari Parker, that team was just not that good. This team is much better. Your coach had quite the comeback this year. I thought implementing switching zone defenses was brilliant simplicity and it turned your season around.

[kmspeaks]

And then, relevant to this discussion, this quasi-slanderous article appears on ESPN:

http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/103165/is-virginias-style-bad-for-the-game?ex_cid=espnapi_public

Medcalf literally posits that college basketball fans only like high scoring games and UVA is hurting the entire country somehow by not letting our opponents score on us.

I think that's an oversimplification of his point. Across all sports the general consensus has been that the casual fan likes more offense. That's why baseball ignored PED's, the NFL rewrote the rule book to make it impossible for anyone not name Richard Sherman to cover a wide receiver, and many Americans just haven't embraced soccer. Increasing eyeballs on the TV is about bringing in the casual fan more often, the die-hards will always be there.

It's not just that Virginia doesn't give up a lot of points, it's that they also don't score very many. It's like watching stall ball for 40 minutes. Is there anything "wrong" with that? From UVA or Tony Bennett's perspective, no. Virginia has been very successful at forcing teams to play their tempo and getting wins as a result. From a getting more people to watch college basketball perspective, maybe. I don't think it's slanderous to ask that question.

[FerryFor50]

I think that's an oversimplification of his point. Across all sports the general consensus has been that the casual fan likes more offense. That's why baseball ignored PED's, the NFL rewrote the rule book to make it impossible for anyone not name Richard Sherman to cover a wide receiver, and many Americans just haven't embraced soccer. Increasing eyeballs on the TV is about bringing in the casual fan more often, the die-hards will always be there.

It's not just that Virginia doesn't give up a lot of points, it's that they also don't score very many. It's like watching stall ball for 40 minutes. Is there anything "wrong" with that? From UVA or Tony Bennett's perspective, no. Virginia has been very successful at forcing teams to play their tempo and getting wins as a result. From a getting more people to watch college basketball perspective, maybe. I don't think it's slanderous to ask that question.

I also think it's unfair to blame UVA entirely.

Plenty of teams slow it down. The Big 10 and Big East are pretty low scoring leagues, too, historically.

I think they use UVA to generate hits since they're highly ranked and successful with slowing it down.

[kmspeaks]

I also think it's unfair to blame UVA entirely.

Plenty of teams slow it down. The Big 10 and Big East are pretty low scoring leagues, too, historically.

I think they use UVA to generate hits since they're highly ranked and successful with slowing it down.

Agreed and I think he mentions in the article that UVA is not unique in this regard. I would say I qualify as being a more than casual fan and I don't particularly enjoy watching two Big 10 teams wrestle each other to a 56-50 final score.

[FerryFor50]

Agreed and I think he mentions in the article that UVA is not unique in this regard. I would say I qualify as being a more than casual fan and I don't particularly enjoy watching two Big 10 teams wrestle each other to a 56-50 final score.

Likewise.

And I really hate it in the NCAAs when one of those Big 10 teams is able to pull off an upset because they happened to get an officiating crew that "lets them play."

[jhmoss1812]

Here's a quote from Medcalf: "Virginia, 350th in adjusted tempo per Ken Pomeroy, is the poster child for that phenomena. The Cavs' milk-every-second-of-the-shot-clock offense and pack-line defense do everything to make Bennett's program a shrewd chessmaster who employs calculated maneuvers in grind-it-out contests his team usually wins. "

Our average possession length on offense is 21 seconds. That's not even close to milking every second of the shot clock. It's just longer than most everyone else's (343 in the country).

Duke averages 80.3 ppg and gives up 64.9 for an average margin of victory equaling 15.4

UVA averages 66.4 and gives up 50.8 for an average margin of victory equaling 15.6.

Just something to think about. Both ways can be effective if you are efficient at what you do.

[freshmanjs]

Duke averages 80.3 ppg and gives up 64.9 for an average margin of victory equaling 15.4

UVA averages 66.4 and gives up 50.8 for an average margin of victory equaling 15.6.

Just something to think about. Both ways can be effective if you are efficient at what you do.

the UVA numbers are much better than the Duke numbers.

[kmspeaks]

Here's a quote from Medcalf: "Virginia, 350th in adjusted tempo per Ken Pomeroy, is the poster child for that phenomena. The Cavs' milk-every-second-of-the-shot-clock offense and pack-line defense do everything to make Bennett's program a shrewd chessmaster who employs calculated maneuvers in grind-it-out contests his team usually wins. "

Our average possession length on offense is 21 seconds. That's not even close to milking every second of the shot clock. It's just longer than most everyone else's (343 in the country).

Duke averages 80.3 ppg and gives up 64.9 for an average margin of victory equaling 15.4

UVA averages 66.4 and gives up 50.8 for an average margin of victory equaling 15.6.

Just something to think about. Both ways can be effective if you are efficient at what you do.

I don't think Medcalf or anybody here is arguing that what Virginia does is not effective. I just don't find it particularly enjoyable to watch and Medcalf doesn't think the casual basketball fan does either.

[roywhite]

A 30-second shot clock would be a simple and IMO effective way to improve the pace of the college game.

[FerryFor50]

A 30-second shot clock would be a simple and IMO effective way to improve the pace of the college game.

I don't think it would solve the "UVA problem" though. Just would make less time they have to "pack it in" on each possession.

On a side note, why doesn't NCSU play pack line? Would make for an interesting/overplayed storyline each game.

[NSDukeFan]

And then, relevant to this discussion, this quasi-slanderous article appears on ESPN:

http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/103165/is-virginias-style-bad-for-the-game?ex_cid=espnapi_public

Medcalf literally posits that college basketball fans only like high scoring games and UVA is hurting the entire country somehow by not letting our opponents score on us.

I really enjoy watching UVa play and don't care that much about what pace they play at. If weaker teams can't score effectively against them, I agree that is the other team's fault, not UVa's. I have a stronger dislike for teams that can't or won't have good possessions resulting in good shots than a team that works the ball around more to get a good shot. I also would enjoy watching UK try to score against UVa. That would not be a high scoring game, but would be fun to see a disciplined UVa against an inconsistent (though likely more focused in the tournament) UK.

[W&LHoo]

I don't think it would solve the "UVA problem" though. Just would make less time they have to "pack it in" on each possession.

On a side note, why doesn't NCSU play pack line? Would make for an interesting/overplayed storyline each game.

A 30 second shot clock would make it MUCH harder for teams to score against us. We already force bad shots and get shot clock violations now. As for our offensive production, we'd run essentially the same system.

[alteran]

A 30-second shot clock would be a simple and IMO effective way to improve the pace of the college game.

I'm not so sure. The defense now needs to play five less seconds. More teams will have incentive to do whatever they can to stifle offense because they won't have to expend as much energy.

Somehow, you have to free up offenses somewhat without turning it into the NBA.

[Seattle Hoo]

I don't think it would solve the "UVA problem" though. Just would make less time they have to "pack it in" on each possession.

On a side note, why doesn't NCSU play pack line? Would make for an interesting/overplayed storyline each game.

NC State doesn't have the discipline to execute the packline effectively.

[Seattle Hoo]

I'm not so sure. The defense now needs to play five less seconds. More teams will have incentive to do whatever they can to stifle offense because they won't have to expend as much energy.

Somehow, you have to free up offenses somewhat without turning it into the NBA.

Someone on the UVA board has argued persuasively that the solution was to stick with the freedom of movement points of emphasis last year. Once the players and coaches adjusted and stopped doing those things, the foul numbers would go down and there would be more movement in the game. But people complained about all the fouls, so the refs stopped calling them and now we are back to this. I know I like the idea of that a lot more than I like the idea of a "defensive 3-seconds" rule that will be complicated, require players to remember something else, and pretty much eliminate zones. I'm not a zone guy, but I like that teams have choices.

[FerryFor50]

Someone on the UVA board has argued persuasively that the solution was to stick with the freedom of movement points of emphasis last year. Once the players and coaches adjusted and stopped doing those things, the foul numbers would go down and there would be more movement in the game. But people complained about all the fouls, so the refs stopped calling them and now we are back to this.

You do realize this is essentially the point I was making in the other thread that you took offense to, right? :)

[brevity]

No game commentary or rankings -- I'm no pfrduke -- but here are the ACC games for the rest of this week. Conference records as of today in parentheses.

TUESDAY

Notre Dame (10-3) hosts Wake Forest (4-9), 7pm ET, ESPNU

WEDNESDAY

Syracuse (7-5) hosts Louisville (8-4), 7pm ET, ESPN
Miami (6-6) hosts Virginia Tech (2-10), 7pm ET, ESPN3
Florida State (6-7) hosts Boston College (1-11), 9pm ET, ESPN3
Duke (9-3) hosts North Carolina (8-4), 9pm ET, ESPN

THURSDAY and FRIDAY

Dark

SATURDAY

Syracuse (7-5) hosts Pittsburgh (6-7), 12pm ET, ESPN3
North Carolina (8-4) hosts Georgia Tech (3-11), 12pm ET, ESPN3
Louisville (8-4) hosts Miami (6-6), 2pm ET, ESPN
Duke (9-3) hosts Clemson (7-7), 4pm ET, ESPN
Boston College (1-11) hosts Notre Dame (10-3), 4pm ET, ESPN3
NC State (6-7) hosts Virginia Tech (2-10), 6pm ET, ESPN2

SUNDAY

Virginia (12-1) hosts Florida State (6-7), 6:30pm ET, ESPNU

Speaking of Virginia, I think people in general (but not necessarily on this thread) are mixing up two phenomena: a desire not to see low-scoring games and a desire not to see suffocating defense that can lead to low-scoring games. I don't have a problem with seeing Virginia in the Final Four because low-scoring games are the norm there. Maybe it's the added pressure, or the crime against nature of playing basketball in a football stadium, but we're lucky if a non-Virginia, non-Big Ten team cracks 60 points.

[Seattle Hoo]

You do realize this is essentially the point I was making in the other thread that you took offense to, right? :)

Well, number one, I didn't take offense to anything. And number two, as the box score one of your compatriots posted indicates (thank you for that, by the way, I had not perused that thing of beauty in a while), Virginia fared very well under last year's refereeing - far better than this year, in fact. We went to the line a LOT. Guys like Gill and Brogdon are not getting to the line anywhere near the way they did last year when other teams were not allowed to push on them and bang into them with impunity. So, I would love to see that approach brought back.

Bennett's defense is not one of those "foul every possession and dare the officials to call them" systems like John Thompson, Nolan Richardson, our very own Jeff Jones, Rick Barnes, etc etc ad nauseum. It is predicated on positioning and moving your feet, so we can adjust to a tightly called game and still be effective. As indicated above, I would not mind a tightly called game, because we would go to the line a LOT (like 38 times, maybe? bwahaha) and most of our guys shoot over 70%.

[FerryFor50]

Well, number one, I didn't take offense to anything. And number two, as the box score one of your compatriots posted indicates (thank you for that, by the way, I had not perused that thing of beauty in a while), Virginia fared very well under last year's refereeing - far better than this year, in fact. We went to the line a LOT. Guys like Gill and Brogdon are not getting to the line anywhere near the way they did last year when other teams were not allowed to push on them and bang into them with impunity. So, I would love to see that approach brought back.

Bennett's defense is not one of those "foul every possession and dare the officials to call them" systems like John Thompson, Nolan Richardson, our very own Jeff Jones, Rick Barnes, etc etc ad nauseum. It is predicated on positioning and moving your feet, so we can adjust to a tightly called game and still be effective. As indicated above, I would not mind a tightly called game, because we would go to the line a LOT (like 38 times, maybe? bwahaha) and most of our guys shoot over 70%.

And as last season's loss in the NCAAs showed, UVA's defense doesn't fare as well when they play a similar team and the game is officiated evenly.

http://espn.go.com/ncb/gamecast?gameId=400548899&version=mobile#boxscore

[W&LHoo]

And as last season's loss in the NCAAs showed, UVA's defense doesn't fare as well when they play a similar team and the game is officiated evenly.

http://espn.go.com/ncb/gamecast?gameId=400548899&version=mobile#boxscore

It wasn't what we were hoping for, but losing an incredibly tight game to Michigan State in the Sweet 16 doesn't necessarily demonstrate some kind of flaw in the system.

[oldnavy]

A 30-second shot clock would be a simple and IMO effective way to improve the pace of the college game.

Pace/#possessions maybe, but would it be "better"? Isn't the shot clock essentially another defender?

I mean as the time ticks off the shot clock the offense has to play the clock as well as the 5 defenders.

How would increasing the "pressure" on the offense to score help the aesthetics of the game when we are already concerned about scoring?

Shortening the clock I am afraid wouldn't help the watch-ability of the games.

Improving the consistency of officiating from game to game and even intra-game would go a long way to helping. Make the refs full time employees of the NCAA, the NCAA can afford it.

Reducing the number of Time Outs, monitor reviews, and my own personal pet peeve, showing up close shots of coaches, bench players/coaches, player x who just scored, crowds, celebrities, or basically anything other than the court when the ball is in play.... any and all of these would improve Old Navy's watching experience. (notice I just went 3d person on ya!)

[jv001]

Pace/#possessions maybe, but would it be "better"? Isn't the shot clock essentially another defender?

I mean as the time ticks off the shot clock the offense has to play the clock as well as the 5 defenders.

How would increasing the "pressure" on the offense to score help the aesthetics of the game when we are already concerned about scoring?

Shortening the clock I am afraid wouldn't help the watch-ability of the games.

Improving the consistency of officiating from game to game and even intra-game would go a long way to helping. Make the refs full time employees of the NCAA, the NCAA can afford it.
Reducing the number of Time Outs, monitor reviews, and my own personal pet peeve, showing up close shots of coaches, bench players/coaches, player x who just scored, crowds, celebrities, or basically anything other than the court when the ball is in play.... any and all of these would improve Old Navy's watching experience. (notice I just went 3d person on ya!)

Number one is improved officiating and number two is your take on close ups of everything but what's happening on the court. How many times have we missed a play because the tv crew was showing a replay of a Duke foul that wasn't called. GoDuke!

[vick]

And as last season's loss in the NCAAs showed, UVA's defense doesn't fare as well when they play a similar team and the game is officiated evenly.

http://espn.go.com/ncb/gamecast?gameId=400548899&version=mobile#boxscore

Indeed, losing a game in the Sweet 16 as a favorite is a pure indicator of fraud. Our 2000, 2002, 2005, 2006, 2009, and 2011 teams were fortunate to have been the beneficiary of uneven officiating up to their inevitable and just defeats.

[devildeac]

Well, number one, I didn't take offense to anything. And number two, as the box score one of your compatriots posted indicates (thank you for that, by the way, I had not perused that thing of beauty in a while), Virginia fared very well under last year's refereeing - far better than this year, in fact. We went to the line a LOT. Guys like Gill and Brogdon are not getting to the line anywhere near the way they did last year when other teams were not allowed to push on them and bang into them with impunity. So, I would love to see that approach brought back.

Bennett's defense is not one of those "foul every possession and dare the officials to call them" systems like John Thompson, Nolan Richardson, our very own Jeff Jones, Rick Barnes, etc etc ad nauseum. It is predicated on positioning and moving your feet, so we can adjust to a tightly called game and still be effective. As indicated above, I would not mind a tightly called game, because we would go to the line a LOT (like 38 times, maybe? bwahaha) and most of our guys shoot over 70%.


And as last season's loss in the NCAAs showed, UVA's defense doesn't fare as well when they play a similar team and the game is officiated evenly.

http://espn.go.com/ncb/gamecast?gameId=400548899&version=mobile#boxscore

"Officiated evenly" doesn't really matter to me but I think I understand FerryFor50 to mean officiated consistently on both ends of the court. I'll invoke a bit of "Wheat-ism" here (he played college BB so he has some knowledge/feel for the game-hope he doesn't mind me revealing that tidbit) and re-state his belief that a "foul is a foul" wherever it is on the court as defined by the rules, whether it be Tyus putting a hand on a player who's driving by him or Amile getting hit in the face on/after a "blocked" shot.

And, BTW, your 38 FT comment isn't funny.

[FerryFor50]

Indeed, losing a game in the Sweet 16 as a favorite is a pure indicator of fraud. Our 2000, 2002, 2005, 2006, 2009, and 2011 teams were fortunate to have been the beneficiary of uneven officiating up to their inevitable and just defeats.

No it was a response to the 3:1 ft attempt discrepancy jab. :)

[FerryFor50]

It wasn't what we were hoping for, but losing an incredibly tight game to Michigan State in the Sweet 16 doesn't necessarily demonstrate some kind of flaw in the system.

Wasn't meant to illustrate a flaw in the system. Was a response that it's easy to win a game with a 3:1 FT attempt discrepancy and was no indicator of UVAs quality last season.

Instead I was pointing out that UVA was a flawed team last season that ran into a doppelgänger in the NCAAs and got a taste of their own medicine - slow and deliberate pace, physical with few foul calls.

Count me in the club of people that want to see more flow on offense and less physical play. I don't cate if UVA wants to wait 30 seconds each possession to shoot as long as they're not allowed to slow the opponent down with hand checking and physical post play and pass it off as great defense.

[Bob Green]

Is there any chance Wake Forest knocks off Notre Dame tonight? After losing a heartbreaker to Virginia on Saturday, I hope the Demon Deacons come out motivated and beat the Irish. I'm hopeful but not optimistic.

[Seattle Hoo]

Was a response that it's easy to win a game with a 3:1 FT attempt discrepancy

You would certainly be the one to know that. I'll take your word for it. :cool:

[devildeac]

No it was a response to the 3:1 ft attempt discrepancy jab. :)

It's actually 3.4545:1 which is even better than Ty Jones' 3.09:1 A to TO ratio this year;).

[devildeac]

Is there any chance Wake Forest knocks off Notre Dame tonight? After losing a heartbreaker to Virginia on Saturday, I hope the Demon Deacons come out motivated and beat the Irish. I'm hopeful but not optimistic.

I wouldn't give them much of a chance @ND but I'd have never thought they'd had the last possession at UVa with a chance to win that one, too.

[FerryFor50]

Is there any chance Wake Forest knocks off Notre Dame tonight? After losing a heartbreaker to Virginia on Saturday, I hope the Demon Deacons come out motivated and beat the Irish. I'm hopeful but not optimistic.

I think they have a solid chance. I bet Devin Thomas has a big game.

[gumbomoop]

Is there any chance Wake Forest knocks off Notre Dame tonight? After losing a heartbreaker to Virginia on Saturday, I hope the Demon Deacons come out motivated and beat the Irish. I'm hopeful but not optimistic.

Me, too, hopeful but. ND looks a decent bet to get to 14-4, 13-5 at worst. Maybe we can be a bit more optimistic that 'Cuse can win at home tomorrow eve v. UL. Cards have tougher schedule than ND, but their toughest games are at Yum. Really need 'Cuse to lay loss #5 on Cards tmorrow. Come on Gbinije.

[Duvall]

"We're looking at watchable basketball right now!" Don't sound so surprised.

Okay, it's a little surprising these days.

[Bob Green]

That was an entertaining 1st half. Wake Forest is hanging tough behind Devin Thomas' 15 points and 8 rebounds. Jerian Grant has 13 points and 4 assists for the Irish. Both teams are cashing in on 3-pointers and foul shots.

[gumbomoop]

The suspension of Jones might hurt Cards on road tomorrow night. Go 'Cuse.

[freshmanjs]

The suspension of Jones might hurt Cards on road tomorrow night. Go 'Cuse.

I'd rather Louisville win. I want our big road wins to look as good as possible.

[DukieInBrasil]

Wake's defense was alright, holding ND to ~40% FGs. There FT defense was horrendous though, allowing ND to hit 27-28 FTs for ~97%. Sheesh.
Otherwise Wake outplayed them in other statistical categories: rebounds, assists, FG%, but ND prevailed b/c they were able to get to the line frequently, and make nearly all of them.

[sagegrouse]

Here's the ACC Operation Basketball preseason poll -- Duke first and UVa fourth:



Team & Points
1. Duke (41): 935
2. North Carolina (12): 870
3. Louisville (3): 847
4. Virginia: 824 (7)
5. Syracuse: 706 (2)
6. Pitt: 592
7. Notre Dame: 515
8. Florida State: 506
9. NC State: 478
10. Miami: 442
11. Clemson: 330
12. Wake Forest: 221
13. Georgia Tech: 195
14. Boston College: 184
15. Virginia Tech: 155

[gumbomoop]

I'd rather Louisville win. I want our big road wins to look as good as possible.

We have some very impressive road wins, more than any other team in the country, and the win at UL surely won't look any different whether the Cards end up at 13-5 or 12-6. It will only be perceived as unimpressive if UL totally collapses, down to 10-8 or 9-9. I want Duke's competitors for ACCT double-bye -- and that definitely includes UL just now -- to lose some games.

[Seattle Hoo]

I want to see the top ACC teams look as impressive as possible, with a couple of the middle tier teams able to squeak into the dance ahead of the lame SEC and Pac-12 teams. I want UVA first, then Duke and Notre Dame, with Louisville and UNC having the 4 and 5 seeds. UVA gets the winner of Louisville-UNC, almost a cruel tournament fate for those teams having to go head-to-head with winner getting UVA. Meanwhile, Duke and Notre Dame can square off, setting up the UVA-Duke rematch. Whether it's Duke or Notre Dame, it would be a rematch of a one-game tilt where the visiting team won the sole regular season matchup.

[Bob Green]

Silent G is having another strong game for Syracuse right now against Louisville. He has eight points and just pulled off a highlight reel block followed by a score at the other end.

[OldPhiKap]

Silent G is having another strong game for Syracuse right now against Louisville. He has eight points and just pulled off a highlight reel block followed by a score at the other end.

As long as the game ends on time! We always get screwed with the 9:00 Carolina games.

[Ultrarunner]

I like his way, told a Hoo acquaintance when Bennett was hired that UVa had found gold. He was skeptical, but then he'd been through a lot.....


I said pretty much the same thing on the board, way back then. I had a chance to watch his teams (WSU plays 30 miles away) and predicted that he was going to do good things with the Cavaliers.

Their defense is a thing of beauty. The offense will evolve.

[JasonEvans]

Well, that didn't take long. Lose a game and suddenly Louisville lets Chris Jones back on the roster (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/12349548/louisville-cardinals-reinstate-guard-chris-jones-rick-pitino-says). Hardly surprising.

By the way, that road loss for Louisville combined with Duke's win over UNC makes the ACC standings a lot clearer, especially with Duke's tiebreaker advantage on every other team at the top of the standings.

-Jason "who has the tiebreaker between Louisville and UNC? They split the regular season... I think the ND @ Lou game in a couple weeks could determine who gets the #4 and who gets the #5" Evans

[CDu]

Well, that didn't take long. Lose a game and suddenly Louisville lets Chris Jones back on the roster (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/12349548/louisville-cardinals-reinstate-guard-chris-jones-rick-pitino-says). Hardly surprising.

By the way, that road loss for Louisville combined with Duke's win over UNC makes the ACC standings a lot clearer, especially with Duke's tiebreaker advantage on every other team at the top of the standings.

-Jason "who has the tiebreaker between Louisville and UNC? They split the regular season... I think the ND @ Lou game in a couple weeks could determine who gets the #4 and who gets the #5" Evans

It depends on how Louisville does against UVa and ND and how UNC does against Duke in game 2. Right now the tiebreaker is Syracuse.

[FerryFor50]

Well, that didn't take long. Lose a game and suddenly Louisville lets Chris Jones back on the roster (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/12349548/louisville-cardinals-reinstate-guard-chris-jones-rick-pitino-says). Hardly surprising.

By the way, that road loss for Louisville combined with Duke's win over UNC makes the ACC standings a lot clearer, especially with Duke's tiebreaker advantage on every other team at the top of the standings.

-Jason "who has the tiebreaker between Louisville and UNC? They split the regular season... I think the ND @ Lou game in a couple weeks could determine who gets the #4 and who gets the #5" Evans

Don't worry. They had a "players meeting," so that will fix everything, right?

[Olympic Fan]

In view of the debate earlier in this thread about Virginia's defensive style and tempo, I thought this was a brilliant commentary by David Teel on the subject:

http://www.dailypress.com/sports/teel-blog/dp-teel-time-uva-pace-play-post.html#page=1

[Bob Green]

SATURDAY

Syracuse (7-5) hosts Pittsburgh (6-7), 12pm ET, ESPN3
North Carolina (8-4) hosts Georgia Tech (3-11), 12pm ET, ESPN3
Louisville (8-4) hosts Miami (6-6), 2pm ET, ESPN
Duke (9-3) hosts Clemson (7-7), 4pm ET, ESPN
Boston College (1-11) hosts Notre Dame (10-3), 4pm ET, ESPN3
NC State (6-7) hosts Virginia Tech (2-10), 6pm ET, ESPN2



First and foremost, I am looking for a Duke victory over Clemson today. We cannot afford to slip up after the great win over Carolina on Wednesday. Next, I desire to see North Carolina, Louisville and Notre Dame lose, but I'm not holding my breath. On paper, there are not any great match-ups today. Hopefully some of these match-ups turn out to be entertaining games on the court.

[Troublemaker]

I'll be very interested to see how UNC responds against GaTech in a game that's about to tip in a few minutes.

Could be a letdown game for the Heels.

Furthermore, the Jackets have been losing so many close games during ACC season, as others have noted on the board. With two games remaining against UNC, I've been tickled pink by the thought that the Jackets could turn their fortunes around starting today and end up sweeping the Heels.

[gumbomoop]

First and foremost, I am looking for a Duke victory over Clemson today. We cannot afford to slip up after the great win over Carolina on Wednesday. Next, I desire to see North Carolina, Louisville and Notre Dame lose, but I'm not holding my breath. On paper, there are not any great match-ups today. Hopefully some of these match-ups turn out to be entertaining games on the court.

Glad to have this reminder of other important games. Probably not much help for Duke today outside of CIS. But maybe BC can keep it close at home. Hanlan and Heckmann.

[Troublemaker]

UNC began the game with a nice tribute to John McClendon. Roy held up 4 fingers to call a play out of McClendon's offense, and the Heels executed to perfection for a layup. Roy got really emotional.

[Duvall]

UNC began the game with a nice tribute to John McClendon. Roy held up 4 fingers to call a play out of McClendon's offense, and the Heels executed to perfection for a layup. Roy got really emotional.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCZ1CVpxq_c

[FerryFor50]

Amazed that Gminski is already back at work considering the week he just had...

[brevity]

North Carolina (8-4) hosts Georgia Tech (3-11), 12pm ET, ESPN3

Came across this game on Raycom regional coverage here in SEC country. Good to see Mike Gminski announcing. Not as good to see the Heels with a 2-touchdown lead at the half.

[Troublemaker]

Came across this game on Raycom regional coverage here in SEC country. Good to see Mike Gminski announcing. Not as good to see the Heels with a 2-touchdown lead at the half.

Over 3 TD lead now. Props to UNC for having no letdown. Hoping Duke can do likewise.

[devildeac]

Came across this game on Raycom regional coverage here in SEC country. Good to see Mike Gminski announcing. Not as good to see the Heels with a 2-touchdown lead at the half.

Even Paul Johnson's team might not be able to make up a 2 TD deficit:rolleyes:;).

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Wow. Roy essentially calls the wine and cheesers stupid in his post game comments and throws them under the bus. He is some piece of work.

[arnie]

Wow. Roy essentially calls the wine and cheesers stupid in his post game comments and throws them under the bus. He is some piece of work.

Wow- he said crowd not savvy enough to know he started with 4 corners and they were asleep. As strong a dislike for his fans as I've heard in years. He knows he's king of UNC and the peasants better do better.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Louisville is apparently allowed to throw the Miami guys around. But if Miami even looks at a UL player they call a foul. I hate when the calls are so inconsistent.

[sagegrouse]

Perrantes and Brogden. The top of Brogden's head hit Perrantes near the left cheekbone. There was a lot of blood on the floor, and Perrantes was down for a few minutes. Both went to the locker room. I hope this is nothing serious, but it was really scary to watch.

[bbosbbos]

Brogden is back. But Perrantes is still in the lock room.



Perrantes and Brogden. The top of Brogden's head hit Perrantes near the left cheekbone. There was a lot of blood on the floor, and Perrantes was down for a few minutes. Both went to the locker room. I hope this is nothing serious, but it was really scary to watch.

[CDu]

Perrantes and Brogden. The top of Brogden's head hit Perrantes near the left cheekbone. There was a lot of blood on the floor, and Perrantes was down for a few minutes. Both went to the locker room. I hope this is nothing serious, but it was really scary to watch.

Pretty sure Perrantes has a broken nose. Brogdon was cut but returned a couple of minutes later. Perrantes was bleeding profusely and has not yet returned.

[duketaylor]

I missed that play. Thought FSU had a really good chance to win this game, even before tip.

When the refs went to review the play late, which was FSU driver dribbled the ball off UVA defender (not obvious by any means) and FSU got the reversal and the ball, I thought that might change momentum and FSU's chance to win. Well, FSU got the ball, then UVA just closed the deal and won going away. Very convincing finish to the game. Very impressed by that; especially with Perrantes hurt and on the bench. Shows me, despite their inability on the offensive end, they remain formidable. Good win for the 'Hoos.

Adversity aside, I still think they struggle to win at the 'Cuse and L'ville. By no means this doesn't mean they won't.

[W&LHoo]

Hearing from folks in Charlottesville that Perrantes broke his nose but should be fine for further games. No concussion, just a lot of blood and a painful injury.

[Newton_14]

Hearing from folks in Charlottesville that Perrantes broke his nose but should be fine for further games. No concussion, just a lot of blood and a painful injury.
Scary play. Very glad both players are ok for the most part. That had concussion written all over it. Perrantes got the worst of it and is going to have a very bad headache tomorrow. That was one of those "turn your stomach" moments.

[DarkstarWahoo]

Scary play. Very glad both players are ok for the most part. That had concussion written all over it. Perrantes got the worst of it and is going to have a very bad headache tomorrow. That was one of those "turn your stomach" moments.

I've got no inside info, but I'm just hoping that the nose was the only broken bone. I did notice that he had a tissue whenever they showed him pretty much the rest of the way.

That happened right around bedtime for our kids, and I happened to walk back out to the living room to "get some water" (check the score) right when it happened. It was surreal.

Someone pointed out on the Sabre that the FSU trainers were checking out Brogdon while the UVA trainers were on the court with Perrantes. Other folks are saying that's SOP for training staffs, but still classy and appreciated.

[Troublemaker]

Adversity aside, I still think they struggle to win at the 'Cuse and L'ville. By no means this doesn't mean they won't.

@Wake on Wednesday could be problematic, too. Deacs have had over a week to prepare and played UVA to the wire in Charlottesville.

Hopefully Perrantes will be able to play in Winston-Salem. I'm rooting for UVA to lose games, not players.