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Gargoyle
02-16-2015, 05:22 PM
I was reading the Notre Dame game notes from goduke, http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22760&SPID=1846&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=209889215 and a couple of items caught my attention:

" Senior Ka’lia Johnson has swiped 15 steals over the last three games, including a career-high six against Clemson. She ranks tied first in the ACC with a 2.3 steals per game average in ACC play"
" Senior Ka’lia Johnson ranks No. 4 in the ACC with a 4.2 assist per game average. She has dished 105 assists this season and had 39 assists her first three years combined."
" Senior Ka’lia Johnson drained a career-high three three-pointers against Louisville and now owns 17 treys on the season. She had made 10 three-pointers her first three seasons."

I realize that Kalia may not be an elite point guard, but these statistics are awfully good for a player who has less than one season of collegiate play at the point. Kudos to Kalia and to the coaching staff.

Also this came as a bit of a surprise to me:

"Head coach Joanne P. McCallie is nearing the 100-win ACC mark with a 99-19 mark over her eight years with the Blue Devils. McCallie is currently at only 118 games with four regular season league contests remaining this season.

Fastest to Reach 100 ACC Wins
Games
129 Kay Yow, N.C. State (100-29)
150 Gail Goestenkors, Duke (100-50)
151 Chris Weller, Maryland (100-51)
154 Debbie Ryan, Virginia (100-54)
155 Brenda Frese, Maryland (100-55)"

killerleft
02-16-2015, 05:50 PM
Thanks for that! Ka'lia has really been great lately, and she'll have to be great tonight if we're to give the Irish a run for their money. Defense, ladies, defense!

-jk
02-16-2015, 06:04 PM
I was reading the Notre Dame game notes from goduke, http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22760&SPID=1846&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=209889215 and a couple of items caught my attention:

" Senior Ka’lia Johnson has swiped 15 steals over the last three games, including a career-high six against Clemson. She ranks tied first in the ACC with a 2.3 steals per game average in ACC play"
" Senior Ka’lia Johnson ranks No. 4 in the ACC with a 4.2 assist per game average. She has dished 105 assists this season and had 39 assists her first three years combined."
" Senior Ka’lia Johnson drained a career-high three three-pointers against Louisville and now owns 17 treys on the season. She had made 10 three-pointers her first three seasons."

I realize that Kalia may not be an elite point guard, but these statistics are awfully good for a player who has less than one season of collegiate play at the point. Kudos to Kalia and to the coaching staff.

Also this came as a bit of a surprise to me:

"Head coach Joanne P. McCallie is nearing the 100-win ACC mark with a 99-19 mark over her eight years with the Blue Devils. McCallie is currently at only 118 games with four regular season league contests remaining this season.

Fastest to Reach 100 ACC Wins
Games
129 Kay Yow, N.C. State (100-29)
150 Gail Goestenkors, Duke (100-50)
151 Chris Weller, Maryland (100-51)
154 Debbie Ryan, Virginia (100-54)
155 Brenda Frese, Maryland (100-55)"


Astonishing coaching numbers. Might be hard for some folks to take.

Thanks for the clarity!

-jk

vick
02-16-2015, 06:05 PM
"Head coach Joanne P. McCallie is nearing the 100-win ACC mark with a 99-19 mark over her eight years with the Blue Devils. McCallie is currently at only 118 games with four regular season league contests remaining this season.

Fastest to Reach 100 ACC Wins
Games
129 Kay Yow, N.C. State (100-29)
150 Gail Goestenkors, Duke (100-50)
151 Chris Weller, Maryland (100-51)
154 Debbie Ryan, Virginia (100-54)
155 Brenda Frese, Maryland (100-55)"

That's incredible.

Des Esseintes
02-16-2015, 06:51 PM
That's incredible.

Hard to say which is more incredible: Coach P's achievement or the position of some within the fanbase that she is insufficient to lead Duke women's basketball. The best and worst of sports, right there.

DU82
02-16-2015, 07:21 PM
I was reading the Notre Dame game notes from goduke, http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22760&SPID=1846&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=209889215 and a couple of items caught my attention:

" Senior Ka’lia Johnson has swiped 15 steals over the last three games, including a career-high six against Clemson. She ranks tied first in the ACC with a 2.3 steals per game average in ACC play"
" Senior Ka’lia Johnson ranks No. 4 in the ACC with a 4.2 assist per game average. She has dished 105 assists this season and had 39 assists her first three years combined."
" Senior Ka’lia Johnson drained a career-high three three-pointers against Louisville and now owns 17 treys on the season. She had made 10 three-pointers her first three seasons."

I realize that Kalia may not be an elite point guard, but these statistics are awfully good for a player who has less than one season of collegiate play at the point. Kudos to Kalia and to the coaching staff.



KJ had a rough start of the season, when I think she was trying to do too much. I don't think she has a great handle of the ball (perhaps her hands are a bit smaller than an average 6' tall women) and it seemed like she was rushing things to get ahead of the other team's defense.

Since Sierra transferred, the pace of play has slowed, apparently by design by the coaching staff, and her play has steadied. She also isn't taking as many shots. When she does, they're more open and she's been hitting more (eye test, I haven't checked the stats.)

There's rarely been any question about her defense, nor her heart and energy (watch her when she's on the bench.)

I think she's also the leader of the team (Elizabeth is the best senior player, but her personality isn't a "get in your face" type of leadership) especially emotionally.

I was about to give up on the potential of this season, given the injuries and transfers (or both, in Alexis's case.) But the way this team has come together, and playing, gives me hope. And unlike just before/after Sierra transferred, the team looks like they're having fun again playing. (Admittedly, winning does that for you!)

Do I expect a win tonight? No, that would be unrealistic. But I think we have a chance, more than I would have thought about a month and a half ago. One of our defensive weaknesses is covering the three. It wasn't great when we had guards. A smart team (and that certainly describes ND) will be able to find the extra pass for an open shot, and not panic because of our height.

(For similar reasons, the team I'd hate to see in the tournament again is DePaul. They're exactly the team that'll give us big problems, and negate our inside advantages.)

Duvall
02-16-2015, 09:32 PM
Here we go again.

-jk
02-16-2015, 09:34 PM
Here we go again.

C'mon. Let 'em play it first...

-jk

uh_no
02-16-2015, 09:39 PM
C'mon. Let 'em play it first...

-jk

6 points in 10 minutes isn't going to get it done against ND. currently a 7-24 run. a quick start the reason why this is still close-ish.

hoping they can pull it out, but getting further away.

Duvall
02-16-2015, 09:42 PM
C'mon. Let 'em play it first...

-jk

Would be reassuring to see some indication of a plan to attack ND's junk defense.

DU82
02-16-2015, 09:43 PM
6 points in 10 minutes isn't going to get it done against ND. currently a 7-24 run. a quick start the reason why this is still close-ish. Didn't expect duke to win this game, really.

Regardless of how you prepare to play a team as tall as Duke, once the game starts you can still get shocked by it. Unfortunately, once ND was able to adjust, it's been lights out with the threes. Worse, being out-rebounded (especially ND's offensive ones) is troubling. Can't take "time off" against a team as well prepared as the Irish.

uh_no
02-16-2015, 09:46 PM
Regardless of how you prepare to play a team as tall as Duke, once the game starts you can still get shocked by it. Unfortunately, once ND was able to adjust, it's been lights out with the threes. Worse, being out-rebounded (especially ND's offensive ones) is troubling. Can't take "time off" against a team as well prepared as the Irish.

yeah, they've been much more tenacious on the glass, and terrible at closing out the shooters...that one as the shot clock expired was inexcusable.

Duvall
02-16-2015, 10:13 PM
Well, Duke is playing, though certainly not better. That's something.

Duvall
02-16-2015, 10:21 PM
It can't help the players' mindset to always come into games like this with a significant schematic disadvantage.

Des Esseintes
02-16-2015, 10:57 PM
It can't help the players' mindset to always come into games like this with a significant schematic disadvantage.

Look, I usually really like what you have to say. But this season? With this team that has so wildly overachieved? I just don't get the negativity. I do not conjugal-visiting get it.

burnspbesq
02-16-2015, 11:33 PM
It can't help the players' mindset to always come into games like this with a significant schematic disadvantage.

Before you accuse the staff of failing to prepare the team for the junk defense that ND threw at us, show me one minute of tape of ND running that defense, against anybody, at any time in the last five seasons. Just one minute. I'm pretty certain you won't find one.

Disappointed by the loss, but the reality is that the margin is a pretty fair reflection of the talent gap between the teams.

AIM4excellence
02-17-2015, 01:24 PM
Before you accuse the staff of failing to prepare the team for the junk defense that ND threw at us, show me one minute of tape of ND running that defense, against anybody, at any time in the last five seasons. Just one minute. I'm pretty certain you won't find one.

Disappointed by the loss, but the reality is that the margin is a pretty fair reflection of the talent gap between the teams.

I agree there is a talent gap. I don't think it's with the players.

The great tactitians prepare for everything they would do if coaching against their own team and have a counter punch ready. I've definitely seen my share of less talented teams accomplishing great things with a great game plan which includes in game adjustments. I'm just not gonna say when I last saw this happen at DWB.

nmduke2001
02-17-2015, 01:49 PM
I watch probably 5 to 8 DWB games a year. That means that they are usually the big games. What troubles me is how often they get blown out. It's difficult to see a top 10 team be completely out of the game with 10 minutes left to play. Is that Coach P's fault? Maybe, maybe not.

Maybe Salvadores is the player that fills the talent gap and takes Duke over the top. She basically willed the Spanish Team to a close loss to the US team. Hopefully she'll carry D against UCONN and others.

burnspbesq
02-17-2015, 02:30 PM
I agree there is a talent gap. I don't think it's with the players.


Wow. I have no idea how to respond to that.

Des Esseintes
02-17-2015, 03:11 PM
Wow. I have no idea how to respond to that.

Yup. Amazing how this garbage never seemed to come up after our several victories over ranked opponents this season. Just to be clear: we're totally OK with a Duke coach being grossly insulted on this board? Mods, everyone else? You all consider this (utterly unmerited) hatefulness copacetic?

NSDukeFan
02-17-2015, 03:23 PM
I agree there is a talent gap. I don't think it's with the players.

The great tactitians prepare for everything they would do if coaching against their own team and have a counter punch ready. I've definitely seen my share of less talented teams accomplishing great things with a great game plan which includes in game adjustments. I'm just not gonna say when I last saw this happen at DWB.

Based on your many posts about DWB, I assume that you are a pretty big fan of the team and likely much more than I am. Is there any particular reason that you seem to only post after losses? I tend to post more after Duke men's basketball wins big games, as I am so excited and want to share that with others, but that is just me.

uh_no
02-17-2015, 03:37 PM
Based on your many posts about DWB, I assume that you are a pretty big fan of the team and likely much more than I am. Is there any particular reason that you seem to only post after losses? I tend to post more after Duke men's basketball wins big games, as I am so excited and want to share that with others, but that is just me.

Not to agree or disagree, but there's bound to be more discussion for big games and for losses than for ho-hum wins. This is true even for discussion of men's games here, and ought to be especially so given the blowouts that most often occur against unranked teams. Unfortunately for our women, there is also a decent correlation between big games and losses.

If Duke were to have beaten ND or Uconn or USC, do you not think people would be here celebrating? even those you accuse of only posting after losses?

I don't think any of us revel in the losses. They just often occur in games people would have talked about anyway.

NSDukeFan
02-17-2015, 03:45 PM
Not to agree or disagree, but there's bound to be more discussion for big games and for losses than for ho-hum wins. This is true even for discussion of men's games here, and ought to be especially so given the blowouts that most often occur against unranked teams. Unfortunately for our women, there is also a decent correlation between big games and losses.

If Duke were to have beaten ND or Uconn or USC, do you not think people would be here celebrating? even those you accuse of only posting after losses?

I don't think any of us revel in the losses. They just often occur in games people would have talked about anyway.

I agree that Duke has not had success against UConn, or ND, though they were very close against SC. Duke has beaten 3 ranked teams, including 2 in the last month (including UNC), and is 19-7 overall, so there have been some positive results as well, that would seem worthy of discussion.

killerleft
02-17-2015, 03:45 PM
I agree there is a talent gap. I don't think it's with the players.

The great tactitians prepare for everything they would do if coaching against their own team and have a counter punch ready. I've definitely seen my share of less talented teams accomplishing great things with a great game plan which includes in game adjustments. I'm just not gonna say when I last saw this happen at DWB.

You're back! Only happy and posting after a loss. Yes, noticed. I get the feeling that you don't celebrate DWB wins so much.

dudog84
02-17-2015, 03:58 PM
Guys/gals, you just have to ignore it. I tried to counter it and got a lecture and points. After every single loss (and sometimes randomly just for fun) this person calls for the firing of Coach P and her staff (obliquely if not outright). After wins...crickets. 99-20 in the ACC just isn't good enough. Three ACC Championships (and P has only missed the ACC final once in 7 years) is not good enough.

To the game: Notre Dame challenged anyone other than Becca to make a jump shot, and no one did. Not just 3s (0-12) but mid-range jumpers weren't falling. It happens sometimes. On the road against the #4 team in the country, I'm not going to complain a whole lot. I think Mercedes had her worst game of the season, she'll get over it. Kalia is a forward trying to play point (see up-thread), she's doing a pretty bang-up job. Before last night Mercedes was hitting 34% from 3, Kalia was 40% (and Azura was 34%). If the team hits 25% from 3, and 75% from the line, it's a tie game. I know that's an oversimplification, but it would certainly have been a different game.

I'll take our chances in a re-match on a neutral floor. Next play.

If the ladies win out, and I think they will, they will probably get a #2 or #3 seed in the ACC Tournament. That's an ACC that has 4 teams in the Top 10, 6 in the top 25. Considering they started the season without a true point guard and proceeded to lose Oderah, Lynee, and Sierra...

I'm pretty proud of them.

Kedsy
02-17-2015, 03:59 PM
"Head coach Joanne P. McCallie is nearing the 100-win ACC mark with a 99-19 mark over her eight years with the Blue Devils. McCallie is currently at only 118 games with four regular season league contests remaining this season.

Fastest to Reach 100 ACC Wins
Games
129 Kay Yow, N.C. State (100-29)
150 Gail Goestenkors, Duke (100-50)
151 Chris Weller, Maryland (100-51)
154 Debbie Ryan, Virginia (100-54)
155 Brenda Frese, Maryland (100-55)"


I agree there is a talent gap. I don't think it's with the players.

We get you don't like Coach P. But as has been pointed out earlier in this thread, Coach P is going to reach 100 ACC wins faster than any women's basketball coach in history. I don't think it's all luck.


I'm just not gonna say when I last saw this happen at DWB.

Good.


I watch probably 5 to 8 DWB games a year. That means that they are usually the big games. What troubles me is how often they get blown out. It's difficult to see a top 10 team be completely out of the game with 10 minutes left to play. Is that Coach P's fault? Maybe, maybe not.

How often do you think it happens, exactly?

I guess first you have to define what it means to be "completely out of the game with 10 minutes left to play." Looking at it historically, we mostly have only final margins to look at. For argument's sake would a final margin of 12 meet your criteria? Though one would reasonably argue whether a 12 point loss constitutes getting "blown out" -- I'd say more like 15 points, or maybe even more.

Here's a count by season of how many games Duke's lost by 15 or more under Coach P:

2015: 1 (UConn)
2014: 3 (UConn and N Dame twice, and both games Duke had to play without its best player)
2013: 1 (UConn)
2012: 1 (UConn)
2011: 3 (UConn twice, and Maryland once)
2010: 2 (UConn and Stanford)
2009: 2 (UNC and Maryland)
2008: 3 (UConn, UNC, Maryland)

Here's a count by season of how many games Duke's lost by 12 or more under Coach P:

2015: 2 (add last night's 13 point loss to Notre Dame)
2014: 3
2013: 1
2012: 2 (add a 12 point loss to Stanford to the chart above)
2011: 3
2010: 2
2009: 3 (add a 14 point loss to Michigan State to the chart above)
2008: 6

So, to sum up, we consistently get blown out by Connecticut. Other than that, it hardly ever happens, and in the last several times that it has (other than UConn) we've had key players out with injury.

So what troubles me is the perception that people think Duke WBB gets blown out often.

devildeac
02-17-2015, 04:05 PM
The sad/awful things are that if we shoot 3/12 or 4/12 from behind the arc and make 11/16 FT (IOW, an "average" game shooting for Duke based on this season's stats) , then that's one helluva competitive WBB game for our ladies. Not saying we win, but sure makes it a lot more interesting.

burnspbesq
02-17-2015, 06:38 PM
Not to agree or disagree, but there's bound to be more discussion for big games and for losses than for ho-hum wins. This is true even for discussion of men's games here, and ought to be especially so given the blowouts that most often occur against unranked teams. Unfortunately for our women, there is also a decent correlation between big games and losses.

If Duke were to have beaten ND or Uconn or USC, do you not think people would be here celebrating? even those you accuse of only posting after losses?


Not only do I not think that, I offer the Kentucky, Carolina, and Louisville threads as Exhibits A, B, and C.

AIM4excellence
02-18-2015, 04:13 PM
Yup. Amazing how this garbage never seemed to come up after our several victories over ranked opponents this season. Just to be clear: we're totally OK with a Duke coach being grossly insulted on this board? Mods, everyone else? You all consider this (utterly unmerited) hatefulness copacetic?

Last I checked, we are allowed to post our opinion, just as the person did who I responded to. Why is it OK to say that our players are less talented and not OK to say our coach is less talented? I am sick and tired of some, including our coach, who blames every defeat on the players. As example, the coach said (and I paraphrase here) that the players should have gotten the ball into the post more. Did she not see what I and many others saw? The post players were smothered and continuing to try passing into the post was leading to mostly turnovers.

And, in response to the problem being "we just couldn't make our outside shots" - there are ways to improve our chance of making those shots. It's called "strategic screening" to give the shooter even an extra split second to line up, set feet, etc. This could have been used a great deal more than it was, including with Becca. A person charged with "face-guarding" can be more easily taken out by an effective screen and use of the screen because they are so close to the player they're guarding. Becca has a very quick release on her shot (as opposed to Tricia who took longer to get her shot off). Even if she doesn't get the shot off after a screen, if the screen is effective and she gets the pass, another defender has to come to cover and someone is now open for Becca to pass to. At the least, it makes the defense shift and good passing eventually gets the ball to a player with the time to take a decent shot. I saw very few decent outside shots taken - most were pretty well guarded while shooting, which decreases the chance of the shot going in.

I request that you focus on what I say rather than making assumptions about my motivations - assumptions that are usually flat out wrong.

Des Esseintes
02-18-2015, 08:16 PM
Last I checked, we are allowed to post our opinion, just as the person did who I responded to. Why is it OK to say that our players are less talented and not OK to say our coach is less talented? I am sick and tired of some, including our coach, who blames every defeat on the players. As example, the coach said (and I paraphrase here) that the players should have gotten the ball into the post more. Did she not see what I and many others saw? The post players were smothered and continuing to try passing into the post was leading to mostly turnovers.

And, in response to the problem being "we just couldn't make our outside shots" - there are ways to improve our chance of making those shots. It's called "strategic screening" to give the shooter even an extra split second to line up, set feet, etc. This could have been used a great deal more than it was, including with Becca. A person charged with "face-guarding" can be more easily taken out by an effective screen and use of the screen because they are so close to the player they're guarding. Becca has a very quick release on her shot (as opposed to Tricia who took longer to get her shot off). Even if she doesn't get the shot off after a screen, if the screen is effective and she gets the pass, another defender has to come to cover and someone is now open for Becca to pass to. At the least, it makes the defense shift and good passing eventually gets the ball to a player with the time to take a decent shot. I saw very few decent outside shots taken - most were pretty well guarded while shooting, which decreases the chance of the shot going in.

I request that you focus on what I say rather than making assumptions about my motivations - assumptions that are usually flat out wrong.
1. Some of us don't think it's necessary to "blame" anyone for losing on the road to a top-five opponent. Especially when the roster has been decimated by injury to the point that it lacks a single point guard. Some of us can find joy in beating multiple ranked opponents and coming within a point of #2 South Carolina.

2. So I think I understand your motivations juuuuust fine.

3. It's awesome that you think "pick and roll" is some next-level answer to "How do we eliminate three-point variance?" The Houston Rockets cannot eliminate three-point variance, but you're pretty certain pick and roll, which you apparently think the coaching staff has never heard of, will fix that business STAT. I mean, pick and roll! We start picking and rolling, no one will withstand our three-point barrage! Sure, our main advantage is height and inside presence. And sure, we lack a plethora of ballhandlers to throw passes on the picks. But never mind that! Let's run way more picks a long way from the basket! This team is totally built to succeed that way! I look forward to other only-on-an-internet-message-board-can-you-find-this-kind-of-professional-insight insights.

3a. "Strategic screening"? Are there non-strategic screens I've been missing all my life? Screens executed just out youthful exuberance? Screens that are only about living in the moment? Screens that sneer at the Machiavellian, life-killing screens that exist purely to spring open shooters and provide paths to the basket? I'm going to start non-strategically screening my family tonight. I'm that alive. They'll ask me why I keep stepping in front of the path to the kitchen. I'll look at them, smile, and say, "Non-strategic screen!" They'll hate it, but I am Dadaist, and I love the irrational. So, please, sir. Keep garlanding your hatred of the coaching staff with pseudo-expertise. It's way too hilarious.

dudog84
02-19-2015, 09:48 AM
1. Some of us don't think it's necessary to "blame" anyone for losing on the road to a top-five opponent. Especially when the roster has been decimated by injury to the point that it lacks a single point guard. Some of us can find joy in beating multiple ranked opponents and coming within a point of #2 South Carolina.

2. So I think I understand your motivations juuuuust fine.

3. It's awesome that you think "pick and roll" is some next-level answer to "How do we eliminate three-point variance?" The Houston Rockets cannot eliminate three-point variance, but you're pretty certain pick and roll, which you apparently think the coaching staff has never heard of, will fix that business STAT. I mean, pick and roll! We start picking and rolling, no one will withstand our three-point barrage! Sure, our main advantage is height and inside presence. And sure, we lack a plethora of ballhandlers to throw passes on the picks. But never mind that! Let's run way more picks a long way from the basket! This team is totally built to succeed that way! I look forward to other only-on-an-internet-message-board-can-you-find-this-kind-of-professional-insight insights.

3a. "Strategic screening"? Are there non-strategic screens I've been missing all my life? Screens executed just out youthful exuberance? Screens that are only about living in the moment? Screens that sneer at the Machiavellian, life-killing screens that exist purely to spring open shooters and provide paths to the basket? I'm going to start non-strategically screening my family tonight. I'm that alive. They'll ask me why I keep stepping in front of the path to the kitchen. I'll look at them, smile, and say, "Non-strategic screen!" They'll hate it, but I am Dadaist, and I love the irrational. So, please, sir. Keep garlanding your hatred of the coaching staff with pseudo-expertise. It's way too hilarious.

So very awesome. You shame me.

And here I was just going to point out how obvious it is that Coach P doesn’t know how to free up a shooter. Even though Becca obliterated the freshman 3-point record with a quarter of the season left. And if she hits her average will finish with the 3rd most in a season. Who holds the top two spots (by far)? Oh yeah, another Coach P player (you know, the one with the slow release). Can someone please show this coach how to teach her team to set screens?

But your response was so much better.

AIM4excellence
02-19-2015, 06:06 PM
1. Some of us don't think it's necessary to "blame" anyone for losing on the road to a top-five opponent. Especially when the roster has been decimated by injury to the point that it lacks a single point guard. Some of us can find joy in beating multiple ranked opponents and coming within a point of #2 South Carolina.

2. So I think I understand your motivations juuuuust fine.

3. It's awesome that you think "pick and roll" is some next-level answer to "How do we eliminate three-point variance?" The Houston Rockets cannot eliminate three-point variance, but you're pretty certain pick and roll, which you apparently think the coaching staff has never heard of, will fix that business STAT. I mean, pick and roll! We start picking and rolling, no one will withstand our three-point barrage! Sure, our main advantage is height and inside presence. And sure, we lack a plethora of ballhandlers to throw passes on the picks. But never mind that! Let's run way more picks a long way from the basket! This team is totally built to succeed that way! I look forward to other only-on-an-internet-message-board-can-you-find-this-kind-of-professional-insight insights.

3a. "Strategic screening"? Are there non-strategic screens I've been missing all my life? Screens executed just out youthful exuberance? Screens that are only about living in the moment? Screens that sneer at the Machiavellian, life-killing screens that exist purely to spring open shooters and provide paths to the basket? I'm going to start non-strategically screening my family tonight. I'm that alive. They'll ask me why I keep stepping in front of the path to the kitchen. I'll look at them, smile, and say, "Non-strategic screen!" They'll hate it, but I am Dadaist, and I love the irrational. So, please, sir. Keep garlanding your hatred of the coaching staff with pseudo-expertise. It's way too hilarious.

1. There have been plenty of people, including the coach who blame players after every loss. Including this one. Here is her post-game quote: "Always time for a first, I guess," McCallie said. "Horrible. Terrible. They need to smarten up, get the ball inside." Coach says players need to "smarten up." That is blame. Many posters follow suit.

2. I asked that you make your post about my points and not continue making false assumptions about me. And yet that's exactly what you did. You don't know me and I'm grateful I don't know you.

3. Screening for shooters is Basketball 101. Some coaches can teach it so players can execute it. Some can't. Results demonstrate the answer.

3a. You just can't help yourself. Took that sarcasm plane right up the runway and let it fly. You might want to read what the professional analysts write about Duke's pathetic offense against elite teams. Perhaps they can explain it more clearly so you can understand it. Boring. Predictable. Stagnant. No movement.

When/if Duke finally beats an elite team and/or gets to a Final Four, please let loose with all the hyperbole in the repertoire. The excuses for not accomplishing these things are repetitive. Why does Duke have no backcourt depth? That would be due to THREE players leaving the program. That's on the coach, though if it were allowed, I'm quite certain this, as well, would be blamed solely on each player who left. And each assistant who left for a lateral position. And, before you use it as an another excuse, having an injured player transfer out still counts. Having an elite player on the bench fully engaged can help teach less experienced players, as Chelsea did.

AIM4excellence
02-19-2015, 06:11 PM
Guys/gals, you just have to ignore it. I tried to counter it and got a lecture and points. After every single loss (and sometimes randomly just for fun) this person calls for the firing of Coach P and her staff (obliquely if not outright). After wins...crickets. 99-20 in the ACC just isn't good enough. Three ACC Championships (and P has only missed the ACC final once in 7 years) is not good enough.



I'm sure your "lecture and points" had nothing whatsoever to do with repeatedly making personal remarks towards me, including repeatedly calling me a liar, which is CLEARLY and prominently against board rules. Since I didn't know you'd been reprimanded until you shared it, you can't blame it on me.

AIM4excellence
02-19-2015, 06:23 PM
So very awesome. You shame me.

And here I was just going to point out how obvious it is that Coach P doesn’t know how to free up a shooter. Even though Becca obliterated the freshman 3-point record with a quarter of the season left. And if she hits her average will finish with the 3rd most in a season. Who holds the top two spots (by far)? Oh yeah, another Coach P player (you know, the one with the slow release). Can someone please show this coach how to teach her team to set screens?

But your response was so much better.

I believe the magnificent Becca being held to 4 pts in a big game means she was not free to shoot. And yes, when that player is face guarded with a junk defense, it IS up to the coach to figure out how to free up the best shooter on the floor. The fact that Rebecca set a new 3 pt record for freshman just means she really is a great shooter and the fact that she couldn't get a decent shot off after the defense was changed lies squarely with the coach.

I was in no way trying to diminish the accomplishments of the fabu Tricia, who's been tearing up the nets overseas. It is a simple fact that anybody watching can see that Becca's release is quicker than Tricia's, which means Becca is ideally suited to take advantage of good screening action.

Seriously, read the professional synopsis of the game. The fact that the Duke coach did not adjust to the ND coach's defensive adjustment is mentioned widely as the turning point of the game and reason for ND victory. By NEUTRAL professionals. Unless you want to also start calling them all liars or biased or whatever.

burnspbesq
02-19-2015, 06:24 PM
1. There have been plenty of people, including the coach who blame players after every loss. Including this one. Here is her post-game quote: "Always time for a first, I guess," McCallie said. "Horrible. Terrible. They need to smarten up, get the ball inside." Coach says players need to "smarten up." That is blame. Many posters follow suit.

2. I asked that you make your post about my points and not continue making false assumptions about me. And yet that's exactly what you did. You don't know me and I'm grateful I don't know you.

3. Screening for shooters is Basketball 101. Some coaches can teach it so players can execute it. Some can't. Results demonstrate the answer.

3a. You just can't help yourself. Took that sarcasm plane right up the runway and let it fly. You might want to read what the professional analysts write about Duke's pathetic offense against elite teams. Perhaps they can explain it more clearly so you can understand it. Boring. Predictable. Stagnant. No movement.

When/if Duke finally beats an elite team and/or gets to a Final Four, please let loose with all the hyperbole in the repertoire. The excuses for not accomplishing these things are repetitive. Why does Duke have no backcourt depth? That would be due to THREE players leaving the program. That's on the coach, though if it were allowed, I'm quite certain this, as well, would be blamed solely on each player who left. And each assistant who left for a lateral position. And, before you use it as an another excuse, having an injured player transfer out still counts. Having an elite player on the bench fully engaged can help teach less experienced players, as Chelsea did.

If you want posters to respond to your "points," it would be useful to have some.

If there are, as you assert, "professional analysts" who "write about Duke's pathetic offense against elite teams," common courtesy would be to provide links. You chose not to do so. There are two inferences that logically follow from your failure to do so: either the links don't exist, or you don't care very much about common courtesy.

Alexis Jones' reasons for transferring have been widely reported. If you are suggesting that she lied on the record about those reasons, please substantiate that accusation. If you know something about Sierra Calhoun's reasons for transferring that has not been reported, please identify your source. If you can't or won't do that, then I see no reason to treat anything you post here as credible.

AIM4excellence
02-19-2015, 07:45 PM
If you want posters to respond to your "points," it would be useful to have some.

If there are, as you assert, "professional analysts" who "write about Duke's pathetic offense against elite teams," common courtesy would be to provide links. You chose not to do so. There are two inferences that logically follow from your failure to do so: either the links don't exist, or you don't care very much about common courtesy.

Alexis Jones' reasons for transferring have been widely reported. If you are suggesting that she lied on the record about those reasons, please substantiate that accusation. If you know something about Sierra Calhoun's reasons for transferring that has not been reported, please identify your source. If you can't or won't do that, then I see no reason to treat anything you post here as credible.

Perhaps you didn't watch the broadcast. Why isn't Duke making an adjustment to the one ND made after Duke's early run? Duke players aren't getting Becca open. Another attempted pass to the crowded paint intercepted. I don't have a line by line summary of the broadcast. Feel free to watch the re-run. Please refrain from cutting personal remarks. I'm not a public figure. The coach is. BIG BIG difference. A million dollars of difference.

Or, just watch Georgia Tech against ND right now. Currently replaying the face guarded Kaela Davis getting open via screen to score. Lots of comments about specific adjustments GT makes to counter ND adjustments. None of these comments made during the Duke/ND game because they didn't happen. Positive comments about Duke: Gee, they're tall. Azura' is a very gifted player. Elizabeth relentless on the boards. Please note that multiple Duke players are complimented. GT coach and specific players complimented. Check the tape. It's all there.

dudog84
02-20-2015, 12:17 AM
Perhaps you didn't watch the broadcast. Why isn't Duke making an adjustment to the one ND made after Duke's early run? Duke players aren't getting Becca open. Another attempted pass to the crowded paint intercepted. I don't have a line by line summary of the broadcast. Feel free to watch the re-run. Please refrain from cutting personal remarks. I'm not a public figure. The coach is. BIG BIG difference. A million dollars of difference.

Or, just watch Georgia Tech against ND right now. Currently replaying the face guarded Kaela Davis getting open via screen to score. Lots of comments about specific adjustments GT makes to counter ND adjustments. None of these comments made during the Duke/ND game because they didn't happen. Positive comments about Duke: Gee, they're tall. Azura' is a very gifted player. Elizabeth relentless on the boards. Please note that multiple Duke players are complimented. GT coach and specific players complimented. Check the tape. It's all there.

I'll respond to the rest of your rants later. But reading this, I just had to go and check the GT-ND box score. Kaela Davis was 7 of 22 from the floor, 1 of 5 from three. SUCCESS!!!

dudog84
02-20-2015, 03:02 PM
I'm sure your "lecture and points" had nothing whatsoever to do with repeatedly making personal remarks towards me, including repeatedly calling me a liar, which is CLEARLY and prominently against board rules. Since I didn't know you'd been reprimanded until you shared it, you can't blame it on me.

I don’t believe I blamed you for anything. I was getting a bit too animated in my response and merited the reminder (Anyone read Dilbert today? Priceless). Please share the posts where I call you a liar. That’s some accusation. Included in what is against board rules is “rumor mongering”, “destructively negative”, and “repetitive rant”.

Did I ask you to provide a link to the extremely disparaging QUOTE you posted from Geno Auriemma about Coach P and Duke Women’s Basketball? When I posted a link where he said the exact opposite? And then you couldn’t but continued to swear that he had said it?

Guilty. If you’re having tea with Geno, please let us know. And take a tape recorder next time, please.

Did you also post a statement that you attributed to Coach P that was not only denigrating to the opponent but also her own team? And I asked for proof of that statement but you couldn’t provide it?

Again, guilty.

What you are doing is simply defamation. Not that any players, recruits, or potential recruits read or take heed of what you or any of us say, but what is your purpose? How is it good for Duke Women’s Basketball? This is a Duke board, isn’t it?

One last thought about Georgia Tech and their mastery against Notre Dame. That team is 14-13 (4-9 in the ACC) and has no wins against ranked teams. Clearly this is superior coaching to what we have. While I’m sure you would be ecstatic if Duke had this record just as long as Coach P was not here, please be assured the rest of us would not be.

Again with the insinuations (elsewhere in thread) about assistant coaches and players leaving. People leave for all kinds of reasons. Please name one coach or player that has gone on to great success, even modest success, elsewhere.

Your motivations are clear. You have repeatedly called for the firing of Coach P. Which I still maintain is unfit for this board given her accomplishments. While Coach P is not perfect your gripes are neither factual nor legitimate.

Please don’t be coy and pretend the rest of us don’t understand.

AIM4excellence
02-20-2015, 05:12 PM
I don’t believe I blamed you for anything. I was getting a bit too animated in my response and merited the reminder (Anyone read Dilbert today? Priceless). Please share the posts where I call you a liar. That’s some accusation. Included in what is against board rules is “rumor mongering”, “destructively negative”, and “repetitive rant”.

Did I ask you to provide a link to the extremely disparaging QUOTE you posted from Geno Auriemma about Coach P and Duke Women’s Basketball? When I posted a link where he said the exact opposite? And then you couldn’t but continued to swear that he had said it?

Guilty. If you’re having tea with Geno, please let us know. And take a tape recorder next time, please.

Did you also post a statement that you attributed to Coach P that was not only denigrating to the opponent but also her own team? And I asked for proof of that statement but you couldn’t provide it?

Again, guilty.

What you are doing is simply defamation. Not that any players, recruits, or potential recruits read or take heed of what you or any of us say, but what is your purpose? How is it good for Duke Women’s Basketball? This is a Duke board, isn’t it?

One last thought about Georgia Tech and their mastery against Notre Dame. That team is 14-13 (4-9 in the ACC) and has no wins against ranked teams. Clearly this is superior coaching to what we have. While I’m sure you would be ecstatic if Duke had this record just as long as Coach P was not here, please be assured the rest of us would not be.

Again with the insinuations (elsewhere in thread) about assistant coaches and players leaving. People leave for all kinds of reasons. Please name one coach or player that has gone on to great success, even modest success, elsewhere.

Your motivations are clear. You have repeatedly called for the firing of Coach P. Which I still maintain is unfit for this board given her accomplishments. While Coach P is not perfect your gripes are neither factual nor legitimate.

Please don’t be coy and pretend the rest of us don’t understand.

1. You did call me a liar. Just because you don't believe it doesn't mean it didn't happen. I do not have the patience to go find the times you did it, but it's there. Repeatedly.
2. Geno said it. I can't prove it. Won't do it again. That is NOT at all the same as "I made it up" or "fabricated" it. I just can't find proof of what I know he said. Let it go already.
3. I posted what was being said during a broadcast. Nowhere did I say I want DWB to have the same record or anything silly like that. I posted what was being said. Period. The broadcasters were making their own remarks about how GT was responding to ND adjustments. Did I say GT or K.Davis were setting the world on fire? NO. Please stop taking my statements to places I didn't go. I posted what was being said during the broadcasts, including positive statements about Duke.
4. One assistant coach who made a lateral transfer to a different school has been to the Final Four TWICE since leaving Duke.
5. There you go again. You don't use the word "liar" here, but state I'm not factual. My not having proof is not the same as not being factual. (and claiming that I'm not "factual" is very, very similar to calling me a liar. Stop it.
6. There IS a lot you don't understand. I wish former players, families and asst coaches would share their experiences publically so you could understand more.

Yes I do have an opinion of this coach which is based on 1) Winning ZERO games against elite teams, especially in the post season, 2) Being exceedingly predictable in offensive schemes and failing to make in-game adjustments as noted by the broadcasters during the Duke/ND game and the ND/GT game, 3) Never accepting any personal responsibility for losses and placing blame for every loss solely on the players, 4) questionable behaviors such as refusing to shake Diamond DeShield's hand after a game and making assertions on social media that former coaches are unethical and "millennials" lack loyalty.

I love DWB and wish we had a program I can be proud of and #3 and #4 makes me unable to be proud of how this program is being run. I am entitled to my opinion. I won't be bullied by you or anyone else.

I am done with this. Please stop calling me a liar in whatever variations of the English language you choose. It all means the same thing. Please stop.

jv001
02-20-2015, 05:16 PM
Why does every Duke Women's game thread start and end the same way. I think most of us have posted how we feel about this years squad and the coach. To keep harping on how bad Coach P is coaching is not going to change anything. Kevin White and Duke University will make the necessary decisions regarding athletic teams. We have good after game discussions on the Men's BB team. Sometimes it's positive and some times it's not. The discussions are about players, coaches, the opposition, and even about uniforms :cool: Why can't we have the same type discussion about our Duke Women's team. GoDuke1

burnspbesq
02-20-2015, 05:44 PM
Why does every Duke Women's game thread start and end the same way. I think most of us have posted how we feel about this years squad and the coach. To keep harping on how bad Coach P is coaching is not going to change anything. Kevin White and Duke University will make the necessary decisions regarding athletic teams. We have good after game discussions on the Men's BB team. Sometimes it's positive and some times it's not. The discussions are about players, coaches, the opposition, and even about uniforms :cool: Why can't we have the same type discussion about our Duke Women's team. GoDuke1

You mean "why can't the women's basketball threads be like they were prior to February 2014, when two noobs with axes to grind started showing up?"

Wish I had the answer to that one.

Kedsy
02-20-2015, 06:34 PM
Winning ZERO games against elite teams, especially in the post season

Except your definition of "elite teams" seems to really mean "teams Duke hasn't beaten." Rather circular, don't you think?

The fact is, Coach P Duke teams have beaten several top 5 teams over her time here. We haven't beaten UConn or Notre Dame while she's been at Duke, but they can't possibly be the only "elite" teams out there, can they? Although if you think they are, I'd say your definition is way too narrow, to the point of being meaningless.

uh_no
02-20-2015, 06:49 PM
We haven't beaten UConn or Notre Dame while she's been at Duke, but they can't possibly be the only "elite" teams out there, can they?

Nope. you can toss in baylor and stanford.

Kedsy
02-20-2015, 07:26 PM
Nope. you can toss in baylor and stanford.

To my knowledge we've played Baylor once under Coach P (and lost by just 3 points, back in 2010), and Coach P has, in fact, beaten Stanford during her time at Duke.

No, if you really believe Coach P has won "ZERO games against elite teams," and you need to say it in all caps (not saying this is you who did this, we all know who it was), then you're really only talking about UConn and Notre Dame. And frankly, in my mind Notre Dame should come with an asterisk -- the only game Coach P's Duke teams have played against Notre Dame while the Duke team was at full strength was a mere 2 point loss in 2011.

dudog84
02-20-2015, 07:39 PM
Kedsy! Quit trying to introduce facts!

I also like that we're 9-2 in the last 11 games against UNC.

burnspbesq
02-20-2015, 08:10 PM
One way to think about who is "elite" is to look at which teams have made the Final Four at least once during Coach P's tenure at Duke. That list consists of 13 teams:

Baylor
California
Connecticut
Louisville
LSU
Maryland
North Carolina
Notre Dame
Oklahoma
Rutgers
Stanford
Tennessee
Texas A&M

From the beginning of the 2006-07 season through today, Duke is 36-36 against those teams.

DU82
02-20-2015, 08:34 PM
Kedsy! Quit trying to introduce facts!

I also like that we're 9-2 in the last 11 games against UNC.

Well, she did say "elite".

Kfanarmy
02-20-2015, 09:02 PM
One way to think about who is "elite" is to look at which teams have made the Final Four at least once during Coach P's tenure at Duke. That list consists of 13 teams:

Baylor
California
Connecticut
Louisville
LSU
Maryland
North Carolina
Notre Dame
Oklahoma
Rutgers
Stanford
Tennessee
Texas A&M

From the beginning of the 2006-07 season through today, Duke is 36-36 against those teams.
Doesn't your definition mean that duke WBB under current leadership is not an elite team...hard to tell which side of this discussion your point is intended to support. If beating a team that has made the final four in past 8 years makes you elite, then mercer mens squad and coach are elite.

-jk
02-20-2015, 09:20 PM
Doesn't your definition mean that duke WBB under current leadership is not an elite team...hard to tell which side of this discussion your point is intended to support. If beating a team that has made the final four in past 8 years makes you elite, then mercer mens squad and coach are elite.

Um, yeah...

After Mercer plays scores of games against final four teams and wins half of them then yes, they're elite. Otherwise, small n.

-jk

Kfanarmy
02-20-2015, 10:02 PM
Um, yeah...

After Mercer plays scores of games against final four teams and wins half of them then yes, they're elite. Otherwise, small n.

-jk

Right...I wouldn't argue that Mercer is...I also wouldn't argue that making an appearance in the final four during Coach P's tenure makes those thirteen elite and her also elite because she's beaten most of them at least once during that time...can't have it both ways...either the definition is an appearance in the ff or it isn't.

Kedsy
02-20-2015, 11:13 PM
Right...I wouldn't argue that Mercer is...I also wouldn't argue that making an appearance in the final four during Coach P's tenure makes those thirteen elite and her also elite because she's beaten most of them at least once during that time...can't have it both ways...either the definition is an appearance in the ff or it isn't.

You're moving the goalposts. Whether or not Duke is "elite" is a discussion for another day. This particular discussion started with someone asserting that Coach P has won "ZERO games against elite teams." If she's gone 36-36 against the teams that have made the Final Four during her time here, I think the evidence is pretty strong that she has more than zero wins against elite teams (probably a lot more than zero), and I assume that's all burnspbesq was attempting to show.

DU82
02-20-2015, 11:14 PM
I wrote this after the BC game and the similar thread, (along with other things that would have been deleted or resulted in a reprimand), but decided to not post it. Still fits here, since the theme/messages are the same...

------------------------------------------------------
The defense is set up to deny inside shots, and the trade-off is giving up (sometimes wide open) threes. When it works, like against Miami, it's very effective. Sometimes, teams do shoot well, and pull off the upset. (adding: and against elite teams that are patient enough to make the extra pass like ND, it's devastating. But I would add that this team would have a problem guarding the three in any event.)

But when was the last time that this happened to Duke before Thursday (losing to a bottom team in the ACC)? Answering my own question, the last time Duke lost to an unranked team was Florida State, this season, although FSU has moved into the top 25 since (and added a key player recently.) Before that, it was to Miami in 2012-13. That team finished 11-7 in the ACC. In 2011-12, it was NC State in the quarters of the ACC Tournament. That team was 16-14 and 5-11 ACC at the time. So, you have to go back three years to find another game like the one on Thursday. Before that, it was 2009-10, losing to unranked BC And UNCCheat on the road (both finished 6-8 ACC.)

So, for the most part, the women's team under Coach P beats the teams they're supposed to. The criticism is that she doesn't beat the teams "above" her. I don't have Duke's ranking in the games handy, but the Duke media guide shows games against ranked opponents. Coach P's record starting in 2007-08 is: 4-9, 8-4, 8-4, 10-4, 5-5, 10-2, 8-7. 53-35 if I can add in my head correctly. As mentioned, 0-fers against UConn and Notre Dame.

A lot of the criticism has been her style of play (defense first, offense comes later) and her personality. I've said some things here about some of her public outbursts and displays (see dissing Diamond last year, although in hindsight, Sylvia might have wanted to do the same thing!) I note that things on the Twitter side appear much less controversial this season, perhaps due to the new marketing person hired for WBB. I also note that comments regarding personnel and players leaving were made, unlike previous transfers/missing players (Kianna and Chloe in particular.)

Adding more data to the discussion, another criticism is how Coach P is killing attendance. The peak per-game average for WBB is 6,764, in her first year (07-08). That was about a 900 person jump over Coach G's last year. After the next year where it stayed roughly steady, the average attendance sunk to 4,814 last year. I note that most other women's programs are struggling to fill their arenas, and Duke is still in the top tier for attendance (don't have a specific cite for that at this moment/season, more from seeing previous data, and watching other games.) As a comparison, the average attendance did top this figure in Coach G's last five years (as well as five of the six previous years with Coach P.) Overall, the average attendance for the seasons under Coach G after the first final four ('99-00 thru '06-'07) was 5028, while the average in the past seven seasons under Coach P is 5499.

I posted a list of transfers / players leaving the team previously, and won't repeat that. But the list for Coach G and Coach P are similar. I note that Sierra Calhoun has not shown up on another campus, which means that she will not be able to play D1 ball until 2016-17, unless she receives a waiver (which is unlikely. The rule is that a transfer must be in residence at her new school for at least one academic year.

Regarding those who have been successful elsewhere, I'd say the best player was Brooke Smith, who left after her freshman year with Coach G to go home to Stanford, and was all Pac-10 her three years there. If there's another candidate, please mention her. (I trust we all hope that Alexis recovers fully from her knee surgeries and that she can get back to her elite status.) I don't think many of the ones who left (under either coach) did very well. (Laura Kurz had two decent years at Villanova, but nowhere near Brooke's play.)

DBR in my view is not a site that objects to criticism of players or coaches, within reason. (Read any men's thread after a loss.) But repeating rumors or wild speculation without citing the source, or "quoting" press conferences without a source, isn't going to go over too well here. So please stop so that each WBB thread after a loss doesn't repeat the same things ad nauseum.

burnspbesq
02-21-2015, 12:13 AM
Doesn't your definition mean that duke WBB under current leadership is not an elite team...hard to tell which side of this discussion your point is intended to support. If beating a team that has made the final four in past 8 years makes you elite, then mercer mens squad and coach are elite.

You skated right past the point that my comment was intended to address in order to kill a straw man of your own devising. I did not (except, apparently, in your imagination) posit that Duke is an elite team--although by other measures, such as top 5% in cumulative winning percentage in D1 since the 2006-07 season, they might be.

It was alleged that Duke NEVER beats elite teams. Well, here are 36 data points that refute that hypothesis.

dudog84
02-21-2015, 08:39 AM
4. One assistant coach who made a lateral transfer to a different school has been to the Final Four TWICE since leaving Duke.


Okay, I'll bite. I asked for a name. And program please (I don't have the energy for google this morning). You'll understand if I have a little problem with trust.

AIM4excellence
02-21-2015, 01:22 PM
Okay, I'll bite. I asked for a name. And program please (I don't have the energy for google this morning). You'll understand if I have a little problem with trust.

Geez. This is too easy. Louisville is the program. Do I really need to connect ALL the dots? And, please contact her to find out how good it felt to make the FF after leaving Duke.

burnspbesq
02-21-2015, 01:37 PM
Do I really need to connect ALL the dots?

Yes, unless you want to reinforce the perception that you're just a troll.


And, please contact her to find out how good it felt to make the FF after leaving Duke.

Never mind. You've now removed all doubt as to what your agenda is.

dudog84
02-21-2015, 01:52 PM
Geez. This is too easy. Louisville is the program. Do I really need to connect ALL the dots? And, please contact her to find out how good it felt to make the FF after leaving Duke.

Um, okay. Kinda. She’s been to the final four once with Louisville. Do you mind if I say you were being untruthful? You’re the one who put twice in all caps. Just can’t help yourself, can you.

Besides, does one data point really make your point? I had to check, and found that Louisville was her 6th position in 10 years. Maybe she likes to get exposure to different coaching philosophies. That's one take of the situation.

Further, it is time for you to name names. Who are the “former players, families and asst coaches” who hate Coach P as much as you do? Quite frankly, I’m shocked that the mods of this board allow you to repeatedly make this claim.

Gargoyle
02-21-2015, 01:56 PM
Geez. This is too easy. Louisville is the program. Do I really need to connect ALL the dots? And, please contact her to find out how good it felt to make the FF after leaving Duke.
How did she feel after Louisville played Duke this year?

dudog84
02-21-2015, 02:04 PM
How did she feel after Louisville played Duke this year?

Good point. Doesn't this also ruin this person's other rant that Coach P has "ZERO" wins against elite teams?

DU82
02-21-2015, 02:43 PM
Geez. This is too easy. Louisville is the program. Do I really need to connect ALL the dots? And, please contact her to find out how good it felt to make the FF after leaving Duke.

A question. Louisville lists Williams as assistant head coach. Is this not a step up from assistant coach?

And wouldn't going from a SEC school to a Big East school and later to an ACC team not be considered lateral moves? Especially since she then left the ACC school to go to a Big East school?

AIM4excellence
02-21-2015, 03:49 PM
Um, okay. Kinda. She’s been to the final four once with Louisville. Do you mind if I say you were being untruthful? You’re the one who put twice in all caps. Just can’t help yourself, can you.

Besides, does one data point really make your point? I had to check, and found that Louisville was her 6th position in 10 years. Maybe she likes to get exposure to different coaching philosophies. That's one take of the situation.

Further, it is time for you to name names. Who are the “former players, families and asst coaches” who hate Coach P as much as you do? Quite frankly, I’m shocked that the mods of this board allow you to repeatedly make this claim.

Oops. I made a MISTAKE. Thank you for correcting me. The other FF Louisville made was right before she joined the program. So sorry. Again, thank you for the correction. That is one more FF than Duke has made in that time frame. Please note that when I am wrong, I will freely admit it.

If you know anything about people telling you things in confidence, you will know I cannot name their names. Perhaps I should not have agreed to air publically what they wanted to be known without revealing identities. Given the choice today, I might choose differently, with something like "if you want that known, I have to have permission to name you."

And, just so it's clear, I DO now have permission to point people to the former asst coach who is now at Louisville. She is the only one I have received that permission from. I was trusted to keep confidence and that's exactly what I will do. No amount of attempts at bullying/shaming me will be successful.

DukieInKansas
02-21-2015, 04:12 PM
Oops. I made a MISTAKE. Thank you for correcting me. The other FF Louisville made was right before she joined the program. So sorry. Again, thank you for the correction. That is one more FF than Duke has made in that time frame. Please note that when I am wrong, I will freely admit it.

If you know anything about people telling you things in confidence, you will know I cannot name their names. Perhaps I should not have agreed to air publically what they wanted to be known without revealing identities. Given the choice today, I might choose differently, with something like "if you want that known, I have to have permission to name you."

And, just so it's clear, I DO now have permission to point people to the former asst coach who is now at Louisville. She is the only one I have received that permission from. I was trusted to keep confidence and that's exactly what I will do. No amount of attempts at bullying/shaming me will be successful.

I respect you keeping their confidence. If things are as bad as you indicate, I would certainly hope these same people are sharing the information with Kevin White, who is in a position to do something. Please encourage them to do so - or at least allow you to use their names with the Athletic Department so you can share the information.

In the mean time, we should all remember that this is the internet. We don't always know the other posters personally and, with no background of established trust, we have no easy way to judge the veracity of their posts. This means people look for a verifiable source to confirm or deny what is posted. From what I have read, some of the things that you have posted as being said by the UConn coach and Coach P have been shown to be different from what others have found on the record. This makes it harder to maintain a belief in what you are saying people close to the program are saying to you.

I think it is safe to say that we all want what is best for Duke University and all of it's athletic teams and, more importantly, we all want them to represent the university in the best way possible. If Coach P is not the best person for the position of Head Coach of the Women's Basketball team, I would certainly hope that the Athletic Department is watching carefully and taking steps to "right the ship".

I will state that I am not in favor of a coach blaming players - even if it is true, it should not ever be said in public by a coach. That is something to be discussed with the player and/or team behind closed doors.

In the meantime, I'm proud of what the team is accomplishing on the court and in the classroom. Certainly, I would like them to win every game and to kick UConn's backside, but I'm willing to bet I don't want that more than the team and the coaching staff do. I will continue to cheer for the team - for the rest of the season and deep into the NCAA tournament. Let's Go, Duke!

AIM4excellence
02-21-2015, 10:18 PM
I respect you keeping their confidence. If things are as bad as you indicate, I would certainly hope these same people are sharing the information with Kevin White, who is in a position to do something. Please encourage them to do so - or at least allow you to use their names with the Athletic Department so you can share the information.

In the mean time, we should all remember that this is the internet. We don't always know the other posters personally and, with no background of established trust, we have no easy way to judge the veracity of their posts. This means people look for a verifiable source to confirm or deny what is posted. From what I have read, some of the things that you have posted as being said by the UConn coach and Coach P have been shown to be different from what others have found on the record. This makes it harder to maintain a belief in what you are saying people close to the program are saying to you.

I think it is safe to say that we all want what is best for Duke University and all of it's athletic teams and, more importantly, we all want them to represent the university in the best way possible. If Coach P is not the best person for the position of Head Coach of the Women's Basketball team, I would certainly hope that the Athletic Department is watching carefully and taking steps to "right the ship".

I will state that I am not in favor of a coach blaming players - even if it is true, it should not ever be said in public by a coach. That is something to be discussed with the player and/or team behind closed doors.

In the meantime, I'm proud of what the team is accomplishing on the court and in the classroom. Certainly, I would like them to win every game and to kick UConn's backside, but I'm willing to bet I don't want that more than the team and the coaching staff do. I will continue to cheer for the team - for the rest of the season and deep into the NCAA tournament. Let's Go, Duke!

Thank you for this very thoughtful post. I thank you for explaining why it might be hard to believe some of what I say, besides the obvious that they just don't want to hear it. You hit one nail on the head for me - I sincerely want what is best for DWB. I realize people try to ascribe other motives, but that is the very simple reason I post what I do. I look forward to returning to the stands and cheering for the team.

I do have to add that everyone I know has shared their viewpoint with the AD and he has taken steps to address their concerns. I wish they would take the step of sharing publically so I can stop being the focal point. I do regret making statements I cannot find proof of.

Kfanarmy
02-21-2015, 10:18 PM
You skated right past the point that my comment was intended to address in order to kill a straw man of your own devising. I did not (except, apparently, in your imagination) posit that Duke is an elite team--although by other measures, such as top 5% in cumulative winning percentage in D1 since the 2006-07 season, they might be.

It was alleged that Duke NEVER beats elite teams. Well, here are 36 data points that refute that hypothesis.

Fair enough...I misread the intent of your post. Still I'm not certain I buy the base hypothesis. Your argument would be stronger if it held that coach p had beaten those teams during the year they made the final four. I'm sure there is at least one instance.

I really don't get the vitriol in this thread. Clearly Duke has dropped a small notch since coach G left: from final fours and championships to elite eights. The recruiting and defense may be as good or better than it was. The offense is often best described as ragged and disorganized. In my opinion the coach has been offputting in the way she talks of other teams' players, and at times her own.

Still Duke has a top 25 program...so most folks are happy...others think Duke could do better.

Unfortunately the discussion in this thread indicates a much greater affinity for Internet belligerence than basketball.

Kedsy
02-22-2015, 12:28 AM
Your argument would be stronger if it held that coach p had beaten those teams during the year they made the final four. I'm sure there is at least one instance.

To answer your implicit question, in games against teams that made the Final Four in the same year, Duke under Coach P is 0-12 against UConn/Notre Dame and 4-4 otherwise, making us 4-16 overall and reinforcing the notion that while Duke under Coach P clearly hasn't had success against UConn and Notre Dame, we've done reasonably well against everyone else.

It's also worth noting that in the nine years Coach P has been at Duke (including this season so far), UConn has lost a total of seven (7) games to teams other than Notre Dame; and in the four seasons in which Duke played Notre Dame, Notre Dame has lost a total of five (5) games to teams other than UConn. In other words, Duke's not the only team that has had trouble beating UConn and Notre Dame during the time period.

uh_no
02-22-2015, 01:11 AM
To answer your implicit question, in games against teams that made the Final Four in the same year, Duke under Coach P is 0-12 against UConn/Notre Dame and 4-4 otherwise, making us 4-16 overall and reinforcing the notion that while Duke under Coach P clearly hasn't had success against UConn and Notre Dame, we've done reasonably well against everyone else.

It's also worth noting that in the nine years Coach P has been at Duke (including this season so far), UConn has lost a total of seven (7) games to teams other than Notre Dame; and in the four seasons in which Duke played Notre Dame, Notre Dame has lost a total of five (5) games to teams other than UConn. In other words, Duke's not the only team that has had trouble beating UConn and Notre Dame during the time period.

didn't duke also beat A&M the year they won the title?

dudog84
02-22-2015, 01:13 AM
I sincerely want what is best for DWB.

Please explain how going on a Duke message board and repeatedly:

Making up quotes and statements…insinuating player abuse…insinuating assistant coach abuse…making false statements about the record and accomplishments (or failings in your view) of the team…

is good for Duke women’s basketball. Please explain.

This plethora of evidence by “everyone” you know has been given to the Duke Athletic Director and he has clearly not found any of it, in part or in total, to be a fire-able offense. Are you calling for Kevin White to be canned as well? You must not believe he is doing his job.

So just what is your purpose?

uh_no
02-22-2015, 01:29 AM
Making up quotes and statements
FWIW I remember similar statements as him, but haven't been able to hunt down evidence. Am I a liar too?



…insinuating player abuse…insinuating assistant coach abuse…making false statements about the record and accomplishments (or failings in your view) of the team…
He's explained that he holds accounts in confidence, and admitted it was probably a mistake to bring it up. You can either believe he actually has heard accounts or hasn't...It IS clear to me, at least, that he follows the team more closely than I, and I'm guessing most people here arguing with him do.



is good for Duke women’s basketball. Please explain.

sometimes airing dirty laundry IS what's best for a program...cough cough UNC...not that we have THAT level of issues, but covering stuff up, if stuff does exist, is not a great idea...


This plethora of evidence by “everyone” you know has been given to the Duke Athletic Director and he has clearly not found any of it, in part or in total, to be a fire-able offense. Are you calling for Kevin White to be canned as well? You must not believe he is doing his job.
this is a straw man.

I report people's comments here when I think they ought to be removed. Sometimes mods do and sometimes they do not remove them. Does that mean I think the mods are nincompoops who ought to be replaced? No. It just means we have a slightly different opinion on the severity of certain actions and the appropriate recourse.


Anyway, I don't agree with all the arguments made here on either side, but I'm tired of people pulling the "making stuff up" and "liar" claims with no evidence there-of. If I say "A happened but I can't find evidence of it," you can't justifiably call me a liar until you have evidence that A, in fact, didn't happen.

dudog84
02-22-2015, 09:05 AM
uh no, it’s one thing to state your opinion. It’s quite another to post the statement of another (in quotes no less, that was very denigrating to the team and specifically the coach) that cannot be found anywhere on the internet. Did the internet have a lapse of memory? You’re using the internet, so can I assume you’ve heard of google? It is stunning to me that you cannot see the difference.

Further, the rules of the board state that if you cannot find a “legitimate, mainstream media outlet with the information”, don’t post it. When I went and looked for the statement, the returns found a quote from the person that was the exact opposite. Now you’re trying to lend credence to this crap?

And is there dirty laundry? Again you lend credence to this? Perhaps you will agree that Kevin White is a well-respected AD. Do you really think women’s basketball is important enough to the University that if students were being abused that he would sweep it under the rug? I certainly don’t think so.

My point, that you either missed or refuse to acknowledge, is that these attributions are either blown out of proportion or are completely baseless. Everybody puts themselves in the best light when relating a dispute. It’s Mr. White’s job to sort it out. I don’t know the man, but I trust him more than anonymous internet posters with a history of, let’s say, exaggeration.

Please name me a coach that doesn’t have transfers and disgruntled former players. And disgruntled former employees? Please. Ok, names were named, so I’m gonna say it. Doesn’t 6 jobs in 10 years raise just a wee bit of a red flag?

Coach P is not perfect. I cringe sometimes at her press conferences. I think she's emotionally exhausted and sometimes frustrated, but I want that investment from the coach. Sure a better filter might be needed. But as for the frequent charges of her throwing players under the bus, I don't recall her ever calling out a player by name. If she does, it's rare. And honestly, don't players sometimes not execute? As for never taking personal responsibility, I hear a lot of "we" in the press conferences, not "they". "We need to...". Doesn't that fall on everyone, including the coaches? That's the way most people interpret "we". If you're waiting for her to say "I'm a failure and a terrible coach", I think you'll be waiting for some time.

I’ll say it again since you didn’t get it the first time. “Everyone” has told the AD their side of the story. He hasn’t fired the coach. So stop with the insinuations and calling for the coach to be fired (don't know if you've ever done that but some do). It may belong on the internet, but it doesn’t belong on a Duke board.

I’m glad I didn’t have a mouthful of beverage when I saw “I sincerely want what is best for DWB”. Talk about disingenuous.

Kedsy
02-22-2015, 10:19 AM
didn't duke also beat A&M the year they won the title?

Yes, that was one of Duke's four wins in the period against same-season Final Four teams. The other three in addition to Texas A&M were Stanford in 2009, California in 2013, and Maryland in 2014.

AIM4excellence
02-22-2015, 10:34 AM
FWIW I remember similar statements as him, but haven't been able to hunt down evidence. Am I a liar too?


Anyway, I don't agree with all the arguments made here on either side, but I'm tired of people pulling the "making stuff up" and "liar" claims with no evidence there-of. If I say "A happened but I can't find evidence of it," you can't justifiably call me a liar until you have evidence that A, in fact, didn't happen.

THANK YOU uh oh!

A. Acknowledgement from another person that what dudog CONTINUES to do is to call me a liar, despite repeated requests from me that s/he cease and desist from doing so. This continued personal attack of another poster is specifically disallowed here. Yet it continues to happen.

B. I have recently invited people to go ask one source after being given permission to do so. Instead of taking me up on it, the source has been denigrated, despite the fact that she became part of a program that went to the FF, something Duke has failed to do. If you want to double-check the number of jobs held, you might find that she was part of Coach McCallie's Mich.St staff and came with her to Duke. You can ask her why she left Duke and to describe how different her Asst Coach responsibilities are at Louisville. Please. Ask her. I beg you.

C. Thank you, thank you, thank you for pointing out how failing to speak up when you know about things that are wrong is not actually supporting the program. I do, in actual fact, love this program. That is exactly why I speak up.

I hope this is the end of this thread. I hope I don't have to come here one more time to object to being characterized as a liar. I do make mistakes at times and appreciate when my mistakes are corrected. I do not lie.

dudog84
02-22-2015, 11:06 AM
What are you talking about? The assistant in question was never at Michigan State. I think I would have noticed that.

And I did not mean to denigrate the person. Just trying to point out that there are 2 sides to every story. If things are truly as bad as you say, Kevin White is doing a terrible job as AD. I find that hard to believe.

DU82
02-22-2015, 11:48 AM
What are you talking about? The assistant in question was never at Michigan State. I think I would have noticed that.

And I did not mean to denigrate the person. Just trying to point out that there are 2 sides to every story. If things are truly as bad as you say, Kevin White is doing a terrible job as AD. I find that hard to believe.

Samantha Williams was hired by Coach P at Michigan State in April 2007, and came with her after P was hired at Duke. (I had forgotten that.)

dudog84
02-22-2015, 11:55 AM
My tone could sometimes be better. I apologized to the mod, and I apologize to the readers of this board for my lack of civility at times.

But I will not apologize for calling into question the veracity of anyone's "facts" if they have no basis. Once is a mistake. Twice and you're playing fast and loose. But my goodness, you're constant. And when it's done in an attempt to ruin someone's reputation and career, I find it reprehensible. So I'll try to do better in voicing my objections. But I'm gonna voice 'em.

Anyone who denigrates the accomplishments of this program despite losing two top-10 recruits to injury this year, two top-10 recruits last year, one top-10 recruit the year before, and one top-10 recruit the year before that is just mean-spirited.

Now, let's go beat State.

Bob Green
02-22-2015, 11:59 AM
Now, let's go beat State.

The Duke - State game is about to tip-off on ESPN2. It would be healthier for all involved in this thread to go watch and discuss today's game.

uh_no
02-22-2015, 12:35 PM
Did the internet have a lapse of memory? You’re using the internet, so can I assume you’ve heard of google?

you have no idea what I do for a living, do you? I'll give you a hint, it involves enterprise storage appliances. I've turned down job interest from google's storage group, so you can say I've heard of google. I know a thing or two about how enterprise and "cloud" storage works (i build it...). So next time your fantasy football goes down, you can blame me...or at least people I know (http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_21983252/yahoo-fantasy-football-fans-agonize-over-late-hit-after). You're right, once something is stored, it can be there almost forever, though this is not always the case in practice, and it can be for several reasons:

1) content is removed by its publisher. Have you ever tried to view a youtube video (I can assume you've heard of youtube?) only to find the fun "content deleted by user?" yeah, google has this somewhere, but I can't get to it. This happens all the time with images as well....you see it in the google image search, click it, and find the resource itself no longer exists on the hosting server....only the cached google thumbnail. If you can find a copy of the mid-atlantic region ICPC 2009 contest test data, let me know....i had downloaded bits of it in the past, but can't seem to find it anymore...as it was removed by the publisher. shame the internet had a memory lapse as I could really use that data.

2) content is never put online. I get a few hundred channels with time warner cable (bless their hearts), but you can bet not every second of every one of them is online! How many people here couldn't watch the UL game because our overlords at ESPN decided not to put the replay online? Does that mean the game didn't happen? Press conferences are even more hairy. Duke does a very good job of archiving them accessibly online. This is NOT the general case, though, and Uconn, for instance, is terrible at this. They do not send reporters to games anymore and only post the AP article for the game on their website. Does that mean that Uconn doesn't have press conferences because I can't find them online?

3) the content is not easy to locate. There is so much content on the web that it's non-trivial to index ALL of it in such a way that everyone finds exactly what they want. Google does a darn good job, but have you never input a query of something you KNOW is out there only to have difficulty having google return the results you want? ever had to query multiple times to find something? It doesn't often happen, but does happen...and is more common with archived material, especially that which might appear in a non-text format, such as a video of a press conference, or a non-text PDF.

Duvall
02-22-2015, 12:45 PM
The Duke - State game is about to tip-off on ESPN2. It would be healthier for all involved in this thread to go watch and discuss today's game.

Well, maybe...

Duvall
02-22-2015, 01:39 PM
Well, maybe...

Yeah, probably best not to discuss this one at all.

GGLC
02-22-2015, 02:18 PM
That was extremely unfortunate. We did not look good.

NC State was obviously fired up for the Coach Yow tribute, though.

Duvall
02-22-2015, 02:22 PM
That was extremely unfortunate. We did not look good.

NC State was obviously fired up for the Coach Yow tribute, though.

They do this every year. Didn't stop Carolina from running them off their own court last year.

GGLC
02-22-2015, 02:23 PM
Fair point.