2015 Nike Hoop Summit

[awhom111]

The United States roster was announced today including Chase Jeter and Luke Kennard:
http://www.usab.com/news-events/news/2015/02/usa-roster-for-2015-nike-hoop-summit.aspx

[DukeFanSince1990]

This is normally a pretty good game.

[awhom111]

Now we also have the other team announced:
http://www.usab.com/news-events/news/2015/03/world-select-team-announced-for-2015-nike-hoop-summit.aspx

Some intriguing international names, but probably not quite as strong as some recent groups and not as good as it could be.

[awhom111]

A reminder that this is tomorrow at 3:00pm ET on ESPN2.

[martydoesntfoul]

I'm here, 15th row, center court. If there are any questions please feel free to fire away.

[OldPhiKap]

A reminder that this is tomorrow at 3:00pm ET on ESPN2.

Let's go future Duke!

[gumbomoop]

I'm here, 15th row, center court. If there are any questions please feel free to fire away.

I'm watching on ESPN2. They just showed Jeter listed at 6'8". Does he look more like 6'10"? I've read the discussion here (other thread), just wondering what you see.

[ChillinDuke]

Just tuned in.

World Team stomping USA so far (23-12 as I type thus).

Haven't seen Jeter yet.

But I watched two sequences of Kennard on-ball defense and am already impressed for a high schooler. Lost the ball in traffic and had a nice recovery floater/hook ish to score as well.

- Chillin

[martydoesntfoul]

I'm watching on ESPN2. They just showed Jeter listed at 6'8". Does he look more like 6'10"? I've read the discussion here (other thread), just wondering what you see.

He does look a little bigger than 6'8", and is very active on the offensive end. But he's having a tough time getting his shot off... I think he's been blocked three times already.

[gumbomoop]

But I watched two sequences of Kennard on-ball defense and am already impressed for a high schooler. Lost the ball in traffic and had a nice recovery floater/hook ish to score.

Yes, and his recovery floater was with right hand, whereas his first make, a long-range jumper, was his normal lefty. He's totally amphibious.

[martydoesntfoul]

Jaylen Brown. Wow!

[Billy Dat]

I'm not used to so many recruits playing for the World Team and being bases in the states...not that I am a student of this event.

If we get Ingram to go with Jeter and Amile, we'll have one of the lankiest squads ever.

[Duvall]

He does look a little bigger than 6'8", and is very active on the offensive end. But he's having a tough time getting his shot off... I think he's been blocked three times already.

Looking like a likely redshirt, to be honest.

[subzero02]

Amile might be lanky but he's very strong... Ask the tank.

[Billy Dat]

Amile might be lanky but he's very strong... Ask the tank.

Frank the Lank

[Henderson]

He does look a little bigger than 6'8", and is very active on the offensive end. But he's having a tough time getting his shot off... I think he's been blocked three times already.

The Hoop Summit website lists Jeter at 6-8, 195. http://www.nikehoopsummit.com. And they measured him a couple days ago at 6-10, 239.

We may need different standards for events played in recreational use states.

[ChillinDuke]

The Hoop Summit website lists Jeter at 6-8, 195. http://www.nikehoopsummit.com. And they measured him a couple days ago at 6-10, 239.

We may need different standards for events played in recreational use states.

That's insane.

A 45-pound difference?

You've got to be kidding me.

- Chillin

[Billy Dat]

Trier is a beast. He impressed me with the US U19 squad at the Tournament of the Americas. I wonder if anyone thinks Sean Miller, the assistant on that squad, has a USA Basketball advantage signing Trier.

[Henderson]

That's insane.

A 45-pound difference?

You've got to be kidding me.

- Chillin

Here are the measurements from the Hoop Summit. http://www.draftexpress.com/article/2015-Nike-Hoop-Summit-USA-Junior-National-Select-Team-Measurements-4890/. Compare them to the Hoop Summit link above.

Oregon gets all the good stuff.

[martydoesntfoul]

Impressed with Newman's athleticism and the overall defensive intensity for an all-star game. Also, this game makes you appreciate what an incredible specimen Jah is...

[gumbomoop]

Looking like a likely redshirt, to be honest.

Don't agree here, either on the merits -- he (Jeter) has size, skills, a go-to move, despite being blocked here -- and on the situation -- we just don't have enough guys. I still think Justin Robinson may not redshirt in 2015-16, but would then redshirt in 2016-17.

[martydoesntfoul]

That's insane.

A 45-pound difference?

You've got to be kidding me.

- Chillin

Agreed . No way is that dude 195. Plus they still have Swanigan as uncommitted.

[BD80]

Yes, and his recovery floater was with right hand, whereas his first make, a long-range jumper, was his normal lefty. He's totally amphibious.

I think you are confusing him with the guy who recently verballed to MSU - Spawnagain

[martydoesntfoul]

Luke has a sweet stroke.

[Billy Dat]

Kennard is a scoring savant.

[Kedsy]

Looking like a likely redshirt, to be honest.

I'm not watching the event, but for 2015-16 Duke recruited scholarship players, nobody is a "likely" redshirt. Putting aside how unlikely it is for a top 10 recruit to use a (non-injury) redshirt, we just don't have enough players for that luxury.

[Duvall]

I'm not watching the event, but for 2015-16 Duke recruited scholarship players, nobody is a "likely" redshirt. Putting aside how unlikely it is for a top 10 recruit to use a (non-injury) redshirt, we just don't have enough players for that luxury.

Certainly true, but it's hard to see getting many minutes next season, if any. He just doesn't look close to being close to being ready for college basketball.

[Henderson]

Yes, and his recovery floater was with right hand, whereas his first make, a long-range jumper, was his normal lefty. He's totally amphibious.

If you're ever dead in the water, you want an amphibious guy with floaters.

[ChillinDuke]

Agreed . No way is that dude 195. Plus they still have Swanigan as uncommitted.

I dunno. No way that dude is 240. A quick Google search lists Jah at 6'10" 270. So height is similar - but weight? I don't think there's any way that Jeter is "only" 30 lbs lighter than Jah. The difference in build is striking.

That said, 195 seems a bit light given his height. But if I had to choose one of the two, I'd probably peg him closer to 195 than 240.

Best guess: 205.

- Chillin

[Henderson]

I dunno. No way that dude is 240. A quick Google search lists Jah at 6'10" 270. So height is similar - but weight? I don't think there's any way that Jeter is "only" 30 lbs lighter than Jah. The difference in build is striking.

That said, 195 seems a bit light given his height. But if I had to choose one of the two, I'd probably peg him closer to 195 than 240.

Best guess: 205.

- Chillin

Are you thinking some guy at the Hoop Summit put a 34 pound thumb on the scale this week?

[gumbomoop]

Certainly true, but it's hard to see getting many minutes next season, if any. He just doesn't look close to being close to being ready for college basketball.

Assuming Justise leaves, our bigs (for the 2 interior spots) next season will be Marshall, Sean, Amile, and Chase. I don't see the first 3 of those combining for 80 mpg. Even if Ingram comes to Duke, he's mostly a wing. So Chase would get some minutes, and I don't mean mop-up. We just have a fundamental disagreement here -- not unknown among fans -- on both the merits of his abilities and on our "8 or 9 may have to be enough" situation.

I'm actually encouraged rather than discouraged, as he doesn't look as lanky as when I saw him a few months back, and last season. He's added some weight.

[OldPhiKap]

Are you thinking some guy at the Hoop Summit put a 34 pound thumb on the scale this week?

Well, there are a lot of variables:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concrete_masonry_unit

[ChillinDuke]

Are you thinking some guy at the Hoop Summit put a 34 pound thumb on the scale this week?

Ha. That's my best guess.

I mean look at this guy: http://bouncyorangeball.com/top-50-nba-players-201314-41-zach-randolph/

Do you think Jeter appears 20 lbs lighter yet about the same height?

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/1017/zach-randolph

Something's up.

- Chillin

[gumbomoop]

Ingram can play. If he chooses Duke, we'd have a very good 3-man class. Obviously this season may spoil us for awhile, especially as our 4th frosh only came on late-season. Wouldn't like to see Ingram head to UNC or UK.

[Henderson]

Ha. That's my best guess.

I mean look at this guy: http://bouncyorangeball.com/top-50-nba-players-201314-41-zach-randolph/

Do you think Jeter appears 20 lbs lighter yet about the same height?

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/1017/zach-randolph

Something's up.

- Chillin

That something might have to do with the discrepancy between listed measurements and measurements. I'll bet there was a time when Zach only weighed 260. Late into REM sleep for example.

[CR9]

Mercy me Ingram looks good. Praying Duke gets him.

[martydoesntfoul]

Ingram is good and the twiggiest on the floor by far.

[plimnko]

i'm like kennard A LOT! has a pretty a nice floor game.

[duke74]

Watched the end of the first half (after watching my Gunners win). Was Luke running the point? For that brief time, he seemed comfortable in the role and distributed well.

[gumbomoop]

By bad luck of circumstance, World team has 3 shot blockers, 2 of whom are on the court most of the time. So Chase, Swanigan, other not-quite-as-bigs on US have tough time, being swarmed. Zimmerman not aggressive enough to overcome shot blockers.

As time winds down, U.S. needs Luke and Brandon in for 3-bombs.

ETA: Luke and Brandon back in.

[Billy Dat]

Nice to see Kennard, Jeter and Ingram in crunch time. Bad foul by Kennard on that 3 ball.

[Duvall]

Jeter playing well late, with solid defense and a couple of tough rebounds.

[Chillduck]

Anybody who says that Luke Kennard didn't play against big time talent in high school has never seen him play in USA competition. He looks like he belongs when you see him play against high-level competition.

[Billy Dat]

Who is going to sign this Canadian PG Jamal Murray?

[Henderson]

Who is going to sign this Canadian PG Jamal Murray?

Dunno, but Oregon is really hot for him, and he's not under the radar. Michigan, Michigan State, and Syracuse are all involved.

[martydoesntfoul]

Who is going to sign this Canadian PG Jamal Murray?

Great question.

[Olympic Fan]

Who is going to sign this Canadian PG Jamal Murray?

Murray is a 2016 recruit ... but I agree, he was the best player on the floor, regardless of class or team.

Loved Luke Kennard. Think he ended up as the USA Team's leading scorer with 22 points (9-18 FG, 2-2 FT). He was 2-5 on 3s. He made three step-up 20-foot jumpers from just inside the line. He had several rebounds, a couple of assists and a couple of steals. He did make a bad foul on a 3-point shooter.

Jeter made less impact, but still did some nice things.

The guy I hated most was the Kentucky PG recruit Briscoe -- he's strong and effective going to the basket on offense, but he displayed no vision, no judgment and he consistently failed to get back on defense. That and the fact that he missed 3-of-4 FTs down the stretch cost the US the game.

More observations from the McDonald's Game and the Hoop Summit:

-- Loved Brandon Ingram. Yeah, he's skinny, but he's a natural 3 at 6-9. I think Fran McCaffrey was the one comparing him to Tayshaun Prince -- I think that's a good analogy. While he wasn't a great one-on-one defender (who was?) he was very effective in traps. He can shoot, put it on the floor and really go. I want him badly.

-- Not too broken hearted about losing Swanigan. I know such all-star games don't show big men to advantage unless they are dominant, but he looked particularly slow and unaggressive. I'm sure he would have helped next year, but I don't think he's a difference maker.

-- I like the Zimmerman kid. I thought he was much more effective in the two all-star games than Chase Jeter. Interesting that the guys who saw them all year rated Jeter higher. Again, I know you can't read too much into two all-star games, but in those two games, I thought Zommerman was MUCH more effective.

-- Of the uncommitted guys, I think the Diello kid is the real difference maker. Maybe Malik Newman. I'm not as sold on Jaylen Brown. But I'd rather have Ingram than Newman or Brown.

[dukelifer]

I dunno. No way that dude is 240. A quick Google search lists Jah at 6'10" 270. So height is similar - but weight? I don't think there's any way that Jeter is "only" 30 lbs lighter than Jah. The difference in build is striking.

That said, 195 seems a bit light given his height. But if I had to choose one of the two, I'd probably peg him closer to 195 than 240.

Best guess: 205.

- Chillin

No way. He is easily 225 or 230. He is pretty solid. Not very athletic and a bit slow- but he is much heavier than 205.

[Billy Dat]

If Tyus goes, it would be smart to get involved with Murray. Maybe we can swoop in....play the Greg Newton Canada card? He could start RIGHT AWAY!

[BD80]

I really hope we get Ingram. He would fill the void left by Justise very nicely. Would give Coach K the type of versatility he had this year.

Jeeter will play next year. He is willing to play defense, he gets into a defensive stance and moves his feet. Again, adds to the weapons that Coach K brings to bear. He was overwhelmed by the size and length of the world team, but was still in there making the effort.

Having Kennard and Allen (and/or Ingram) on the floor together next year is going to drive opposing teams crazy. We will attack from the wings, if the defender gives the wing room, we shoot. The defender presses, we drive. The defense collapses, we reverse it to the other wing and start again.

It speaks volumes that Kennard, Jeter and Ingram were on the floor together at crunch time. The coach generally divided up PT, but at the end he wanted to win.

[dukelifer]

I really hope we get Ingram. He would fill the void left by Justise very nicely. Would give Coach K the type of versatility he had this year.

Jeeter will play next year. He is willing to play defense, he gets into a defensive stance and moves his feet. Again, adds to the weapons that Coach K brings to bear. He was overwhelmed by the size and length of the world team, but was still in there making the effort.

Having Kennard and Allen (and/or Ingram) on the floor together next year is going to drive opposing teams crazy. We will attack from the wings, if the defender gives the wing room, we shoot. The defender presses, we drive. The defense collapses, we reverse it to the other wing and start again.

It speaks volumes that Kennard, Jeter and Ingram were on the floor together at crunch time. The coach generally divided up PT, but at the end he wanted to win.

Kennard has an exceptionally high bball IQ and a quick shot. He will have a big impact next year. Jeter is fine but will need time to get used to the speed of the game and how to use his body against big players. Ingram is an interesting player. Certainly not Justise but he can do a few things you cannot teach- he has a great nose for the ball and can score in many ways. He would make Duke a very good team next year.

[Billy Dat]

Jeter was just fine today against amongst the best college ball will have to offer next year. Ok, so our league already has lots of good bigs that he'll have to be ready to battle, but Skal L headed to Kentucky is the next #1 pick or thereabouts, he's used to playing elite bigs in AAU and world competitions with Team USA. He'll be ready to ball!

Ingram is legit, if we get him, we just need to see about a PG. If not, K will have to get creative, but we'll be fun.

[Billy Dat]

By the way, this event is 1 trillion times better than the other HS All America games. It was a real game played hard and generally smart.

[ncexnyc]

Jeter was just fine today against amongst the best college ball will have to offer next year. Ok, so our league already has lots of good bigs that he'll have to be ready to battle, but Skal L headed to Kentucky is the next #1 pick or thereabouts, he's used to playing elite bigs in AAU and world competitions with Team USA. He'll be ready to ball!

Ingram is legit, if we get him, we just need to see about a PG. If not, K will have to get creative, but we'll be fun.

Alright, here's a question for you similar to the one I asked on the other thread concerning Ingram and UNC.

What makes Duke an attractive landing spot for Ingram? Should Tyus return how do you satisfy Matt, Grayson, Luke, and Mr. Ingram minutes wise?

[KandG]

If Tyus goes, it would be smart to get involved with Murray. Maybe we can swoop in....play the Greg Newton Canada card? He could start RIGHT AWAY!

Fran Fraschilla effectively tweeted the same thing earlier today:

"If I am Coach K & Tyus Jones is leaving, I am on phone right now to get Jamal Murray to reclassify right now. Wasting time in prep school."

Fraschilla also said (in a separate chat) that college basketball in the top 5 conferences, with all the early departures and some kids choosing to play overseas instead of attending college, is the equivalent of Double A baseball compared to the NBA. Doesn't seem to be a fan of college players staying another year if they can get drafted in the first round because the NBA's development resources and level of competition are far better for a young player's development than college ball.

[jimsumner]

Alright, here's a question for you similar to the one I asked on the other thread concerning Ingram and UNC.

What makes Duke an attractive landing spot for Ingram? Should Tyus return how do you satisfy Matt, Grayson, Luke, and Mr. Ingram minutes wise?

Allen, Kennard and Matt Jones are all natural guards in the 6-4, 6-5 range. Ingram is a 6-9 combo forward, bigger than Duke's other wings and possessing ball skills not so far in evidence from Amile Jefferson.

So, he absolutely will/would fill a definite need for Duke.

[KandG]

Ben Golliver of Sports Illustrated on Luke Kennard (from his summary of the Hoops Summit):

"Luke Kennard: 22 points, five rebounds, two assists

A 6'5" lefty wing from Ohio, Kennard is simply a joy to watch: He played with a high activity level all week, he has a nice understanding of spacing when the ball is in his hands and he has a way of making unexpected passes in tight spaces.

There's an "un-shake-ability" to him, as he remains poised even during broken plays or rushed situations. On Saturday, he spun away from trouble to find an assist after USA's press forced a turnover on one sequence, and he calmly stepped into a pretty mid-range jumper after allowing a closing-out defender to fly by him on another. He can be a bit of a pest on offense, too, making opponents pay for forgetting about him along the baseline, in leak-out situations or spotting up for a three on the weakside."

http://www.si.com/nba/2015/04/11/nike-hoop-summit-world-team-beats-usa-portland-ben-simmons-skal-labissiere-thon-maker

[Duke95]

Very excited to see Kennard in a Duke uniform. He and Grayson look to be our biggest scoring threats next year, the former based on HS performance, and the latter, well, based on busting up Bucky in the national championship game. If we get nobody else, this will be a rebuilding year.

But...ideally we will get Ingram and Thornton/Murray for next year as well, meaning we should be Top 10..ish.

[conmanlhughes]

Trier is a beast. He impressed me with the US U19 squad at the Tournament of the Americas. I wonder if anyone thinks Sean Miller, the assistant on that squad, has a USA Basketball advantage signing Trier.

I couldnt disagree more. Trier is an absolute ballhog and has no passing skills, or he ignores them. He basically screwed the U.S. Chances when he decided to drive at the end instead of passing to a wide open Kennard for the 3. In this game, McDonald's All-American, and Dick's Nationals he showed the same behavior. He would much rather take a contest hard shot instead of making the easy pass. Sure, give me 40 chances and I will eventually hit one too. Ingram and Kennard both expressed their frustration in this game and McD's when Trier refused to pass to them.

Arizona will not be a contender because of Trier. He will destroy team chemistry. Sure, he might win them a couple of games, but he will cost them much more. I do not believe I have ever disliked a recruits game like this before, but he is a me-first, I'm the best there will ever be sorta player, and does not understand a team concept at all.

[Listen to Quants]

Jeter was just fine today against amongst the best college ball will have to offer next year. Ok, so our league already has lots of good bigs that he'll have to be ready to battle, but Skal L headed to Kentucky is the next #1 pick or thereabouts, he's used to playing elite bigs in AAU and world competitions with Team USA. He'll be ready to ball!

Ingram is legit, if we get him, we just need to see about a PG. If not, K will have to get creative, but we'll be fun. Indeed. There's plenty of 'film' on Allen and even MJones driving with their right hands, and I thought I saw some nice drives from Kennard. I'm not sure if they need work on their off hands but if they put that work in and Jones's shot gets the soph-junior bump Duke might have 3 driver/shooters who would be an interesting distributed pg, as all can pass from the drive at least some. Better with a TJones, of course, but interesting without even if no last-minute pg arrives.

[Dukehky]

Really liked Jeter and Kennard today.

Briscoe lost that game for the US, go ahead Cal, all you.

Today really re-emphasized how lack-luster this class really is. Ingram is a player, but there really aren't any elite talents out there like the past few years. I think we got a couple steals with our two guys because they are going to be around for a while and are going to be good players, but I have no real interest in stocking up on this year's class and losing spots for the dynamos that exist in the 2016 class.

Ingram would be a nice add, but if we are going to add a guy, I want it to be Thornton out of re classification. That kid is a stud.

[CDu]

Allen, Kennard and Matt Jones are all natural guards in the 6-4, 6-5 range. Ingram is a 6-9 combo forward, bigger than Duke's other wings and possessing ball skills not so far in evidence from Amile Jefferson.

So, he absolutely will/would fill a definite need for Duke.

Ingram is certainly different than Jones, Kennard, and Allen. But it remains that those are four guys for two spots (the wings - no way Ingram and his toothpick body plays PF next year). So someone would get squeezed. Of course, I doubt it would be Ingram.

[FerryFor50]

According to Paul Bianccardi, Duke has inquired about Jamal Murray.

https://twitter.com/paulbiancardi/status/587091562405826560

[mo.st.dukie]

According to Paul Bianccardi, Duke has inquired about Jamal Murray.

https://twitter.com/paulbiancardi/status/587091562405826560

Good. He looked ready for college this year not only skill-wise but physically as well.

[gumbomoop]

Allen, Kennard and Matt Jones are all natural guards in the 6-4, 6-5 range. Ingram is a 6-9 combo forward, bigger than Duke's other wings and possessing ball skills not so far in evidence from Amile Jefferson.

So, he absolutely will/would fill a definite need for Duke.


Ingram is certainly different than Jones, Kennard, and Allen. But it remains that those are four guys for two spots (the wings - no way Ingram and his toothpick body plays PF next year). So someone would get squeezed. Of course, I doubt it would be Ingram.


Indeed. There's plenty of 'film' on Allen and even MJones driving with their right hands, and I thought I saw some nice drives from Kennard. I'm not sure if they need work on their off hands but if they put that work in and Jones's shot gets the soph-junior bump Duke might have 3 driver/shooters who would be an interesting distributed pg, as all can pass from the drive at least some. Better with a TJones, of course, but interesting without even if no last-minute pg arrives.


Waiting on decisions from Tyus, Ingram, Thornton, which makes us a little nervous, as we want to win the NC every year. My preference, anyway. But as it's less than a week since #5, even a glutton can see we're playing with house money for awhile. Here are 2 scenarios that play upon some comments in the 3 tag quotes above. [There are of course other scenarios, few better than I below, several better than II.]

I -- This one assumes either Tyus or Derryck wil be Duke's PG next season, and that Brandon chooses Duke. That means an embarrassment of perimeter (PG, 2 wings) riches. For this wonderful scenario, I'm inclined to give priority to jimsumner's description of Ingram as a "combo forward," and to partially disagree with CDu's prediction that any of Grayson, Matt, Luke, or Brandon "would get squeezed" much. For I suspect as the season wears on, under this roster-scenario, Brandon would gradually play some useful minutes at the 4.

I acknowledge CDu's insistence that Brandon looks like, and mostly is, a wing. But Justise looked like a wing/3, yet wound up being a near-prototype of a "combo forward." I acknowledge that Brandon isn't Justise, but he's court-smart and can stroke it. I'd bet that, unless 2 of our 4 bigs, much less 3, demand major minutes, that as the season wears on, for parts of every game, Brandon would be a stretch 4. Krzyzewski has a history of small-ball confidence. I'd predict some minute-squeeze, but not so much among the wings as among the 4 bigs. I don't mean that Brandon would necessarily, and probably not early-season, be our primary 4. But his talent would certainly challenge the bigs to prove that they can contribute more, perhaps mostly on D. I don't know whether any of Sean, Marshall, or Chase will merit ~20 mpg (again, in this specific 9-man roster). I do believe Matt, Grayson, Luke, and Brandon would all see 20+. So, if (a) Tyus or Derryck is here, and (b) Brandon is here, Brandon plays some wing/3 and some stretch 4.

II -- Still playing with NC house money, so in this "near-worst-case-for-Duke" scenario, no Tyus or Derryck or any grad PG, but Brandon comes to Duke. This is the 2015-16 version of "8 is enough," but the difference between 9 men and 8 changes everything. Here Brandon is exclusively a wing/3 [actually not necessarily, but I won't push my luck with CDu.....]. Here we should Listen to Quants, and particularly to the "interesting" possibilities if Matt, Grayson, and Luke work on their off hands.

Luke doesn't have an off hand. In this "8 is enough" scenario, he is effectively the PG most of the time. He has much better court vision than Matt, who is still tentative on O [as contrasted with his fierce, sticky D]. Grayson may possess some vision/passing skills, but his time is better spent attacking or spotting up. Yes, he definitely needs to work on off hand, and he's got some right-to-left attacking rim skills, but he's a hard-determined driver, not a drive-and-disher.

I don't claim that Luke would look like a "classic" PG. I do claim -- on this specific 8-man roster -- he has, easily, the most PG-like skills in his considerable repertoire. He has better vision, court sense, handle, passing, crossover, (natural?) amphibiousness than Grayson or Matt. This doesn't mean he won't shoot it. Tyus, nowhere near the soft-shooter that Luke is, shot it; and Luke will shoot it, plenty. Under ideal circumstances, Luke wouldn't have to play PG. See scenario I. But scenario II is fundamentally different. Listen to Quants. And to K, who has said Luke is "very easy to play with." By which K did not mean only that Luke can stroke it.

[NashvilleDevil]

Really liked Jeter and Kennard today.

Briscoe lost that game for the US, go ahead Cal, all you.

Today really re-emphasized how lack-luster this class really is. Ingram is a player, but there really aren't any elite talents out there like the past few years. I think we got a couple steals with our two guys because they are going to be around for a while and are going to be good players, but I have no real interest in stocking up on this year's class and losing spots for the dynamos that exist in the 2016 class.

Ingram would be a nice add, but if we are going to add a guy, I want it to be Thornton out of re classification. That kid is a stud.

It was frustrating watching that game because I always want the Duke guys to do well and the U.S. to win. Seemed like a lot of hero ball from a couple of guys on the U.S. side and it cost them the game.

[CDu]

Waiting on decisions from Tyus, Ingram, Thornton, which makes us a little nervous, as we want to win the NC every year. My preference, anyway. But as it's less than a week since #5, even a glutton can see we're playing with house money for awhile. Here are 2 scenarios that play upon some comments in the 3 tag quotes above. [There are of course other scenarios, few better than I below, several better than II.]

I -- This one assumes either Tyus or Derryck wil be Duke's PG next season, and that Brandon chooses Duke. That means an embarrassment of perimeter (PG, 2 wings) riches. For this wonderful scenario, I'm inclined to give priority to jimsumner's description of Ingram as a "combo forward," and to partially disagree with CDu's prediction that any of Grayson, Matt, Luke, or Brandon "would get squeezed" much. For I suspect as the season wears on, under this roster-scenario, Brandon would gradually play some useful minutes at the 4.

I acknowledge CDu's insistence that Brandon looks like, and mostly is, a wing. But Justise looked like a wing/3, yet wound up being a near-prototype of a "combo forward." I acknowledge that Brandon isn't Justise, but he's court-smart and can stroke it. I'd bet that, unless 2 of our 4 bigs, much less 3, demand major minutes, that as the season wears on, for parts of every game, Brandon would be a stretch 4. Krzyzewski has a history of small-ball confidence. I'd predict some minute-squeeze, but not so much among the wings as among the 4 bigs. I don't mean that Brandon would necessarily, and probably not early-season, be our primary 4. But his talent would certainly challenge the bigs to prove that they can contribute more, perhaps mostly on D. I don't know whether any of Sean, Marshall, or Chase will merit ~20 mpg (again, in this specific 9-man roster). I do believe Matt, Grayson, Luke, and Brandon would all see 20+. So, if (a) Tyus or Derryck is here, and (b) Brandon is here, Brandon plays some wing/3 and some stretch 4.

II -- Still playing with NC house money, so in this "near-worst-case-for-Duke" scenario, no Tyus or Derryck or any grad PG, but Brandon comes to Duke. This is the 2015-16 version of "8 is enough," but the difference between 9 men and 8 changes everything. Here Brandon is exclusively a wing/3 [actually not necessarily, but I won't push my luck with CDu.....]. Here we should Listen to Quants, and particularly to the "interesting" possibilities if Matt, Grayson, and Luke work on their off hands.

Luke doesn't have an off hand. In this "8 is enough" scenario, he is effectively the PG most of the time. He has much better court vision than Matt, who is still tentative on O [as contrasted with his fierce, sticky D]. Grayson may possess some vision/passing skills, but his time is better spent attacking or spotting up. Yes, he definitely needs to work on off hand, and he's got some right-to-left attacking rim skills, but he's a hard-determined driver, not a drive-and-disher.

I don't claim that Luke would look like a "classic" PG. I do claim -- on this specific 8-man roster -- he has, easily, the most PG-like skills in his considerable repertoire. He has better vision, court sense, handle, passing, crossover, (natural?) amphibiousness than Grayson or Matt. This doesn't mean he won't shoot it. Tyus, nowhere near the soft-shooter that Luke is, shot it; and Luke will shoot it, plenty. Under ideal circumstances, Luke wouldn't have to play PG. See scenario I. But scenario II is fundamentally different. Listen to Quants. And to K, who has said Luke is "very easy to play with." By which K did not mean only that Luke can stroke it.

My comments were specific to a scenario in which we have a PG come in (or stay). If not, and we have just four guys for three spots, then nobody gets squeezed.

But I would note one substantial difference between Ingram and Winslow: Winslow is 30lb heavier despite being 2-3 inches shorter. Ingram doesn't look nearly strong enough to play the 4, despite clearly having the length for it. Ingram would get tossed around like a rag doll at PF.

[BD80]

According to Paul Bianccardi, Duke has inquired about Jamal Murray.

https://twitter.com/paulbiancardi/status/587091562405826560

This probably ruined the day for the coaching staffs at UM, MSU, Syracuse and maybe a few more. Murray would fit into next year's team very nicely.

Maybe this will help convince Thornton that Duke is what he really wants. Sometimes, the realization that something could be lost makes one appreciate it all the more.


Waiting on decisions from Tyus, Ingram, Thornton, which makes us a little nervous, as we want to win the NC every year. ...

I thought it was more of an entitlement

[gumbomoop]

My comments were specific to a (I) scenario in which we have a PG come in (or stay). (II) If not, and we have just four guys for three spots, then nobody gets squeezed.

But I would note one substantial difference between Ingram and Winslow: Winslow is 30lb heavier despite being 2-3 inches shorter. Ingram doesn't look nearly strong enough to play the 4, despite clearly having the length for it. Ingram would get tossed around like a rag doll at PF.

Yes, and my Scenario I and yours are the same. And my Scenario II and yours are the same. In my Scenario I, Brandon would be a part-time 4, not as much our main 4 as Justise became.

So our substantive disagreement is limited to Scenario I, though I can understand that any number of posters might well disagree with my central contention in my Scenario II; and I acknowledge again that Ingram is different from Winslow. I do agree with jimsumner that Ingram might be able to be a "combo forward," about which you are understandably skeptical. Fwiw, Brandon sees himself as a a combo guy: "I think I can play every position on the floor, 1 through 4. I can take bigger guys to the basket, and shoot over smaller guys. To reach my full potential, I need to get stronger." [Link: http://www2.kusports.com/news/2015/apr/12/kansas-hoops-recruiting-targets-stellar-nike-summi/]

[Troublemaker]

FYI, the USA coach did a good job going small to get back into this game. Both Ingram and Jaylen Brown were used as 4s by USA in the game.

Loved what I saw from Luke, and liked what I saw from Ingram and Chase. Swanigan seemed overmatched by length.

Overall, a very good Hoop Summit for Duke.

[CDu]

Yes, and my Scenario I and yours are the same. And my Scenario II and yours are the same. In my Scenario I, Brandon would be a part-time 4, not as much our main 4 as Justise became.

So our substantive disagreement is limited to Scenario I, though I can understand that any number of posters might well disagree with my central contention in my Scenario II; and I acknowledge again that Ingram is different from Winslow. I do agree with jimsumner that Ingram might be able to be a "combo forward," about which you are understandably skeptical. Fwiw, Brandon sees himself as a a combo guy: "I think I can play every position on the floor, 1 through 4. I can take bigger guys to the basket, and shoot over smaller guys. To reach my full potential, I need to get stronger." [Link: http://www2.kusports.com/news/2015/apr/12/kansas-hoops-recruiting-targets-stellar-nike-summi/]

Yes, my only disagreement in terms of PT is with regards to Ingram at PF, and specifically Ingram defensively at PF.

[gumbomoop]

Yes, my only disagreement in terms of PT is with regards to Ingram at PF, and specifically Ingram defensively at PF.

Yes, Brandon's weight is the main issue that might deter Krzyzewski from trying him part-time at the 4. We can hope we're still intermittently discussing this during summer/fall, as it would mean (1) Brandon's coming, and (2) either Tyus stays (looking unlikely) or Thornton or another PG comes in. So if we're still discussing it, it will be in the aftermath of at least 2 pieces of very good news.

[CDu]

Yes, Brandon's weight is the main issue that might deter Krzyzewski from trying him part-time at the 4. We can hope we're still intermittently discussing this during summer/fall, as it would mean (1) Brandon's coming, and (2) either Tyus stays (looking unlikely) or Thornton or another PG comes in. So if we're still discussing it, it will be in the aftermath of at least 2 pieces of very good news.

Absolutely. I won't be at all upset if we get Ingram and a top-flight PG. In fact, I am very much hopeful that this very thing happens. I am not overly distressed by the idea of having one or two players not getting "enough" minutes. I was just pointing out that there would be a minutes crunch if both Ingram and a starting PG arrive; not saying this would be a bad thing.

[Kedsy]

I was just pointing out that there would be a minutes crunch if both Ingram and a starting PG arrive; not saying this would be a bad thing.

I'm not even sure it would be true, though. Coach K has often found enough minutes for 5 perimeter players. Although I suppose the 5th perimeter guy often plays just 10 to 12 minutes or so -- is that what you mean by a minute crunch? Even then, it doesn't always happen that way, especially if we go small for some number of minutes each game.

Depending on how things go, if we get both a PG and Ingram, the "real" minute crunch might happen up front, if Ingram plays some at PF and four players (Marshall, Chase, Sean, and Amile) have to split fewer than 80 minutes.

[CDu]

I'm not even sure it would be true, though. Coach K has often found enough minutes for 5 perimeter players. Although I suppose the 5th perimeter guy often plays just 10 to 12 minutes or so -- is that what you mean by a minute crunch? Even then, it doesn't always happen that way, especially if we go small for some number of minutes each game.

Depending on how things go, if we get both a PG and Ingram, the "real" minute crunch might happen up front, if Ingram plays some at PF and four players (Marshall, Chase, Sean, and Amile) have to split fewer than 80 minutes.

I think you are behind in the conversation Kedsy. As gumbo and I have already, said, the key is whether or not you think Ingram is able to defend PF (gumbo does, I don't).

My feeling is that Ingram is too skinny to defend the PF spot next year. So he will need to play on the wing. And if he does AND we get a PG, then one of Allen/Jones/Kennard is going to play well less than starter's minutes.

If we don't get a PG (CDu's nightmare scenario) or if Ingram gets strong enough to defend PF (a pleasant surprise to CDu scenario) then there will be little-to-no minutes crunch at the wing. And as you say, there will be a minutes crunch up front instead.

[Listen to Quants]

Yes, Brandon's weight is the main issue that might deter Krzyzewski from trying him part-time at the 4. We can hope we're still intermittently discussing this during summer/fall, as it would mean (1) Brandon's coming, and (2) either Tyus stays (looking unlikely) or Thornton or another PG comes in. So if we're still discussing it, it will be in the aftermath of at least 2 pieces of very good news. Yup. And K has surprised before with undersized 4s as everybody in this thread knows. Nelson was listed as 200, Dante Jones at 210, Gerald Henderson at 215 (oddly Dunlavey was listed at 220 even his Freshman year!?). I have no idea if weights get inflated on rosters but I imagine so. Ingram was actually weighed at 196 so might well be as heavy as 205/210 come April 2016 (no jinx intended). Ingram does look rail thin but he did measure with a standing reach of 9' 1.5" which is great for a college PF. His box outs might need some protection from the refs when/if he gets run over.

[CDu]

Yup. And K has surprised before with undersized 4s as everybody in this thread knows. Nelson was listed as 200, Dante Jones at 210, Gerald Henderson at 215 (oddly Dunlavey was listed at 220 even his Freshman year!?). I have no idea if weights get inflated on rosters but I imagine so. Ingram was actually weighed at 196 so might well be as heavy as 205/210 come April 2016 (no jinx intended). Ingram does look rail thin but he did measure with a standing reach of 9' 1.5" which is great for a college PF. His box outs might need some protection from the refs when/if he gets run over.

It isn't the weight in isolation; it is the strength. Much different to be 200lb at 6'2" than 195lb at 6'9". Nobody was pushing Nelson around.

The concern I have with Ingram playing the PF spot is that he is rail thin. Almost scarily thin. That doesn't bode well for playing defense and boxing out against PFs.

[devildeac]

It isn't the weight in isolation; it is the strength. Much different to be 200lb at 6'2" than 195lb at 6'9". Nobody was pushing Nelson around.

The concern I have with Ingram playing the PF spot is that he is rail thin. Almost scarily thin. That doesn't bode well for playing defense and boxing out against PFs.

Just imagine the scary scenario if he went to c*rolina and got thrown under one of the city buses. There'd be nothing left but tire tracks. :rolleyes:

[Listen to Quants]

It isn't the weight in isolation; it is the strength. Much different to be 200lb at 6'2" than 195lb at 6'9". Nobody was pushing Nelson around.

The concern I have with Ingram playing the PF spot is that he is rail thin. Almost scarily thin. That doesn't bode well for playing defense and boxing out against PFs. We see the same thing, I just think it could work out. The offensive advantages of Ingram at the 4 may balance out the defensive woes. I wouldn't take his height into consideration when estimating his strength. Lean body weight is the key. Whether long and lean or short and squat, a muscle pulls in rough accord with its mass. Think about the serious wrestlers. They come in long lean and short squat and within a weight division you cannot assume taller is weaker. It *would* be useful to move up some weight divisions though, as you say. Do you figure the Duke listings of weight were, more or less, accurate? (I'm always a little suspicious of exaggeration in team listings).

[Duke95]

Just imagine the scary scenario if he went to c*rolina and got thrown under one of the city buses. There'd be nothing left but tire tracks. :rolleyes:

They just threw Tokoto under the bus. He was shocked to find Rashad McCants in the wheel well.

[jimsumner]

Duke has always recruited Ingram as a combo forward.

Let me ask this question. Three minutes left, Duke up by seven, Duke's ball. Who do we see playing the 4, Ingram or Amile Jefferson?

For more than three decades Mike Krzyzewski has gone small when protecting a late lead. I rather suspect he will continue that trend.

[gumbomoop]

Ivan Rabb picks Cal(ifornia) over 'Zona. Good for Cuonzo Martin. Maybe Jaylen Brown will join him?

http://espn.go.com/college-football/recruiting/story/_/id/12686131/ivan-rabb-no-6-espn-100-commits-california-golden-bears

[CDu]

Ivan Rabb picks Cal(ifornia) over 'Zona. Good for Cuonzo Martin. Maybe Jaylen Brown will join him?

http://espn.go.com/college-football/recruiting/story/_/id/12686131/ivan-rabb-no-6-espn-100-commits-california-golden-bears

Crazy that two of the top prospects chose MSU and Cal over UK and Arizona. I like it.

[martydoesntfoul]

Today really re-emphasized how lack-luster this class really is. Ingram is a player, but there really aren't any elite talents out there like the past few years. I think we got a couple steals with our two guys because they are going to be around for a while and are going to be good players, but I have no real interest in stocking up on this year's class and losing spots for the dynamos that exist in the 2016 class.



While there were some flashes of brilliance, it wasn't anything like the 2014 Hoops Summit collection of talent, at least to this untrained eye. Below was my post from that game (I'm trying to make it an annual tradition... you can't beat $10 seats in the lower section, mid court). I posted a portion of this in the Wisconsin game thread a few days ago, so apologies if you've already read it.

The two games were really very different; we'll have to see if this year's game ends up offering clues about our guys, like last year's did :-)

2014 Hoops Summit report:
Justise: It's just one game, but man was he impressive. He battled down low, finished around the rim, and of course hit the three before halftime. But more than that, he showed he could handle the ball (I think he brought it up on one possession), and made some great passes that should have resulted in several more assists. And on one play where Tyus went down hard, he ran across the court to be the first one to help him up. Given his defense, athleticism, ability to drive, and passing and dribbling skills, I really see him getting big minutes next year.

Jahlil: I think he's going to be great. First, he got stronger as the game went on (perhaps some of that was wearing down Towns and the subsequent foul trouble that went along with it). Second, he has great footwork and can get very quickly to the basket where he has a nice touch on his shot. Third, he's physically very mature and doesn't get pushed around. Fourth, he appears to have good hands and showed that he could play the inside-outside game with Tyus. Fifth, he plays really hard with a lot of intensity on both ends of the floor; for instance, when he got whistled for a BS call in the first half he yelled in frustration. In summary, I think he 's the real deal.

Tyus: I came away with similar views to the ones expressed on this thread. There's something about him that just instills confidence in his teammates when he has the ball. He spent the first 85 percent of the game patiently getting everyone involved (though I wish we could have seen more work with Myles). His quickness wasn't really evident though he did play good D. And then, with 5 minutes to go, BAM! He just took over, effortlessly blowing past people and finishing. I say he starts next year. He has a calmness and a leadership capability that we missed from our guards this season. Tyus just might be the key...

Myles: Would be great to get him, but I didn't see him as dominant as I expected him to be. He really does look more comfortable at the 4 (good news for us), and did show some range. Hopefully the injury, which looked from my vantage point to be an ankle sprain, isn't serious.

Other: Cliff Alexander is a man-child... someone behind me asked, rather incredulously, if he was really still in high school... I give him the Greg Oden Award as a result. Oubre was also impressive... kind of scary to think of these guys with Myles at Kansas, so I for one hope it doesn't happen. Theo Pinson appeared lightning quick in flashes. Stanley Johnson also looks to have star potential. For the World Team, to which I was paying less attention, Mudiay really stood out as a freak athlete who can light it up... keep an eye on him and SMU next year.

In conclusion: I'm really excited about our Big 3 (not to mention Grayson). They seem like good kids who are super-talented and who play hard and enjoy being around one other. I can't wait!

[BriantheBlogger]

According to Paul Bianccardi, Duke has inquired about Jamal Murray.

https://twitter.com/paulbiancardi/status/587091562405826560


I dont normally ever post my own stuff but figured it was relevant, Duke seems to be a longshot for Murray but here is an interview I did with a Canadian scout where we talk about Jamal Murray. http://www.dukeblogger.com/i-talk-jamal-murray-canadian-hoops-more-with-tariq-sbiet-tariq-sbiet-from-north-pole-hoops/

[toooskies]

Rail-thin PFs work in college basketball. Amile has never been big, but has gotten minutes at the 4 since freshman year. John Henson down the road was pretending to be a perimeter player coming out of HS, but was always played at the 4 by Roy (and with reasonable success). He would just need to learn to use his height, length, and quickness as an advantage over heavier, slower PFs.

The beautiful thing about college basketball is that a lot of things can work if you get buy-in. DeMarcus Nelson played a ton of PF at 6'4". Singler played the 5 as a tough but skinny freshman.

Let's wait till everyone gets on the court and show us something before declaring what they can and can't do. Or at least wait till we know who's going to be on the team next year.