Congrats Luke Kennard, Chase Jeter, and Kyra Lambert

[Channing]

On being named to the 2015 McDonald's All American game. We may quibble about which game is the most competitive, but I think the McD game is still the standard bearer as far as prestige. Only two other ACC teams are represented, with Malachi Richardson for SU and Dwayne Bacon for FSU (though there are a lot of undecideds ... more than in most years).

[BigWayne]

The three undecided Duke targets (from verbalcommitts.com (http://www.verbalcommits.com/schools/duke)) are all on the team as well.

Malik Newman, Brandon Ingram, Diamond Stone.

Chance for some lobbying by Kennard and Jeter.

[Troublemaker]

The three undecided Duke targets (from verbalcommitts.com (http://www.verbalcommits.com/schools/duke)) are all on the team as well.

Malik Newman, Brandon Ingram, Diamond Stone.

Chance for some lobbying by Kennard and Jeter.

Newman and Stone are no longer being recruited by Duke.

The two remaining possibilities seem to be Ingram and Caleb Swanigan.

[Duvall]

Newman and Stone are no longer being recruited by Duke.

The two remaining possibilities seem to be Ingram and Caleb Swanigan.

Well Duke's going to have to start recruiting *someone* to play next season.

[gumbomoop]

Well Duke's going to have to start recruiting *someone* to play next season.

I have no idea how this shocking development [dismissal] will affect HS stars' perception of Duke, near and far term. But I'll assume the story plays out in such a way that it's understandable, if sad, that Krzyzewski simply had to act.

It seems pretty straightforward that if either Tyus or Justise leaves, there will be available minutes on the perimeter/wing next season for a Brandon Ingram. Some wing minutes up for grabs even if both stay.

[CDu]

I have no idea how this shocking development [dismissal] will affect HS stars' perception of Duke, near and far term. But I'll assume the story plays out in such a way that it's understandable, if sad, that Krzyzewski simply had to act.

It seems pretty straightforward that if either Tyus or Justise leaves, there will be available minutes on the perimeter/wing next season for a Brandon Ingram. Some wing minutes up for grabs even if both stay.

The wing is not the concern for next year. PG is the concern. If Tyus Jones goes pro, we are literally looking at Allen (a SG who doesn't play much right now and looks overwhelmed when he does); Matt Jones (a good defender at SG/SF but by no means a PG), and Kennard (a freshman SG). That doesn't scream "stable PG play" to me.

I suspect we will be hitting the grad transfer market if Tyus Jones leaves. Heck, even if he stays, we might be best served hitting the transfer market.

[gumbomoop]

The wing is not the concern for next year. PG is the concern. If Tyus Jones goes pro, we are literally looking at Allen (a SG who doesn't play much right now and looks overwhelmed when he does); Matt Jones (a good defender at SG/SF but by no means a PG), and Kennard (a freshman SG). That doesn't scream "stable PG play" to me.

I suspect we will be hitting the grad transfer market if Tyus Jones leaves. Heck, even if he stays, we might be best served hitting the transfer market.

Although I don't disagree with you here, my post was a response to a comment about numbers.

I assume Robinson is not being counted on to play much at all. So, we will have somewhere between 7 and 9 players. Seven is the alarming number. It's true that if Justise stays but Tyus leaves, PG rather than wing would be the concern. If Tyus stays and Justise leaves, I repeat that there would be wing minutes -- some -- for someone like Ingram.

Again, seven is a dangerous number. We don't get to that number unless Tyus leaves. I agree with you that Grayson and Matt are not good PG candidates. But I have a different view about Luke, as you well know, and which I will not repeat here. Obviously now the previous debate about Rasheed v. Luke as PG is moot. I'm sure you're right that if Tyus leaves, the staff will consider a grad transfer. But in the no-Tyus scenario, someone other than a grad transfer will log some minutes at PG.

My actual point, however, was that Rasheed's departure is likely to be noticed by someone like Brandon Ingram. Might not push him toward Duke, but he'll notice the news.

[Kedsy]

I assume Robinson is not being counted on to play much at all.

The last word on Robinson (which admittedly was before the Rasheed news) was that he plans to redshirt his freshman year.

[CDu]

Although I don't disagree with you here, my post was a response to a comment about numbers.

I assume Robinson is not being counted on to play much at all. So, we will have somewhere between 7 and 9 players. Seven is the alarming number. It's true that if Justise stays but Tyus leaves, PG rather than wing would be the concern. If Tyus stays and Justise leaves, I repeat that there would be wing minutes -- some -- for someone like Ingram.

Again, seven is a dangerous number. We don't get to that number unless Tyus leaves. I agree with you that Grayson and Matt are not good PG candidates. But I have a different view about Luke, as you well know, and which I will not repeat here. Obviously now the previous debate about Rasheed v. Luke as PG is moot. I'm sure you're right that if Tyus leaves, the staff will consider a grad transfer. But in the no-Tyus scenario, someone other than a grad transfer will log some minutes at PG.

My actual point, however, was that Rasheed's departure is likely to be noticed by someone like Brandon Ingram. Might not push him toward Duke, but he'll notice the news.

And my point was that most expected Sulaimon to be the starting PG (or backup PG if Tyus Jones stays) next year. If Jones goes pro, he'd have played all of his minutes at PG. Conversely, I think we had plenty of wing options in Allen, Matt Jones, and Kennard. We only play 2 wings at a time (80 mpg at the wing available), after all, so having 3 was enough. Each could play 25-30 mpg.

Where we were shorthanded was at PG. We have only one true PG eligible for next year, and if Tyus Jones that leaves us with none, with Sulaimon the most likely to assume the responsibilties. If we now get Ingram, that just means one of Allen, Matt Jones, or Kennard plays substantially fewer minutes. And As Sulaimon was likely to play much of his time at PG (all of his time if Tyus Jones left), his departure doesn't really open up many minutes at the wing anyway.

If a guy like Ingram was looking at Duke, he was probably thinking "I'll play over a guy like Grayson Allen anyway". So minutes weren't going to be a concern for him.

I agree that having only 7 scholarship players is a concern. But it is a concern that needs to be addressed at PG, not on the wing. I'd love to ALSO get Brandon Ingram, because 9 options is usually better than 8 (or 8 better than 7). But one of those additions REALLY needs to be a PG.

[gumbomoop]

If we now get Ingram, that just means one of Allen, Matt Jones, or Kennard plays substantially fewer minutes.

I agree that having only 7 scholarship players is a concern. But it is a concern that needs to be addressed at PG, not on the wing. I'd love to ALSO get Brandon Ingram, because 9 options is usually better than 8 (or 8 better than 7). But one of those additions REALLY needs to be a PG.

We might disagree, even substantially, but just to be sure we're not talking past each other .....

If Tyus stays, we have no PG problem. Maybe we get a grad for backup PG, or Kennard plays backup for ~ 5 mpg. I think I understand that for you, Kennard as backup would simply be the least bad option; whereas for me, he's a good option. But in this Tyus-stays scenario, if Justise departs and neither Ingram nor Swanigwn chooses Duke, then we'd have only 8, so I assume K would seek a grad player. But I think he'd try to find the "best perimeter player available," no matter the position. That is, I think K thinks Luke would do fine backing up Tyus. In the scenario where K needs to find a grad guy, Luke's versatility gives K a free hand in finding a guy who can just help, probably anywhere from the 1 to the 3.

If Tyus leaves, I agree that we need to late-recruit a PG. I'll guess that for you, if said late-addition is even a decent PG, he'd play major minutes, maybe 30/game, by necessity. But unless we'd somehow luck into an amazing guy who could play 35+, someone will have to play ~ 10-12 mpg at backup. Again, Kennard, either as least-bad or as good option.

Whether Tyus stays or goes, I've said in another thread that the dismaying departure of Rasheed will not have escaped anyone's notice, including Brandon Ingram's.

[mattman91]

The wing is not the concern for next year. PG is the concern. If Tyus Jones goes pro, we are literally looking at Allen (a SG who doesn't play much right now and looks overwhelmed when he does); Matt Jones (a good defender at SG/SF but by no means a PG), and Kennard (a freshman SG). That doesn't scream "stable PG play" to me.

I suspect we will be hitting the grad transfer market if Tyus Jones leaves. Heck, even if he stays, we might be best served hitting the transfer market.

Do you, or anyone else, know of any possible grad student transfers that will be available? That may be a good item to research.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Do you, or anyone else, know of any possible grad student transfers that will be available? That may be a good item to research.

That feels like a desperate move to me - all the distraction and disconcert of a one-and-done with less talent. Not saying it isn't going to happen, but seems it would be indicative of a level of panic.

[CDu]

Do you, or anyone else, know of any possible grad student transfers that will be available? That may be a good item to research.

We could surely put together a lengthy list of guys who might be eligible to do it. But we won't really have an idea until after the season who will be looking.


That feels like a desperate move to me - all the distraction and disconcert of a one-and-done with less talent. Not saying it isn't going to happen, but seems it would be indicative of a level of panic.

It might be desperate. It might be a panic move. But I woild rather have a PG on the roster next year than avoid the perception that we are in panic mode.

[mattman91]

That feels like a desperate move to me - all the distraction and disconcert of a one-and-done with less talent. Not saying it isn't going to happen, but seems it would be indicative of a level of panic.

I understand where you are coming from here, but there is a decent possibility that Tyus leaves after this year. I think a solid D1 PG who has had 4 years to develop would be a better plan than throwing in a freshman shooting guard, or an inexperienced sophomore shooting guard (with no disrespect to Luke or Grayson). Just 2 years ago we explored the grad student transfer market and (I think) offered that kid from Memphis, so K isn't above it.

[Duvall]

That feels like a desperate move to me - all the distraction and disconcert of a one-and-done with less talent. Not saying it isn't going to happen, but seems it would be indicative of a level of panic.

You seem to be under the impression that Duke *shouldn't* be panicking about its 2016 roster.

[mattman91]

You seem to be under the impression that Duke *shouldn't* be panicking about its 2016 roster.

He did start the Optimism thread :cool:

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

You seem to be under the impression that Duke *shouldn't* be panicking about its 2016 roster.

Well, I'm not suggesting they should or shouldn't, just recognizing that it's a desperate move. And no, I don't give a rip about the "impression" it makes. Clearly, while the staff was prepared for the departure of one to three freshmen this year, the Sheed situation is a surprise.

I'm just saying that I hope we explore all possibilities before taking on a fifth-year grad student.

[Kedsy]

You seem to be under the impression that Duke *shouldn't* be panicking about its 2016 roster.

Without being privy to the mindset of both Tyus and Justise, I think panicking is premature.

[Duvall]

Without being privy to the mindset of both Tyus and Justise, I think panicking is premature.

Okay, panicking is a strong word. But Duke should probably be preparing for the scenario in which they have seven players for next year, and making plans to fill out the roster from there.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Okay, panicking is a strong word. But Duke should probably be preparing for the scenario in which they have seven players for next year, and making plans to fill out the roster from there.

I'm not up to date on current NCAA requirements, but to my knowledge I still have some eligibility remaining. Call me, K.

[mattman91]

I'm not up to date on current NCAA requirements, but to my knowledge I still have some eligibility remaining. Call me, K.

Yeah me too. Interested in making a package deal with me? 6'2 195 would atleast look good on the official roster :)

[CDu]

Well, I'm not suggesting they should or shouldn't, just recognizing that it's a desperate move. And no, I don't give a rip about the "impression" it makes. Clearly, while the staff was prepared for the departure of one to three freshmen this year, the Sheed situation is a surprise.

I'm just saying that I hope we explore all possibilities before taking on a fifth-year grad student.

The problem is that there aren't any reasonable opportunities elsewhere. Aside from Tyus Jones, none of our other players have played a minute of college PG. And the two most likely options in-house will have a combined <300 minutes of college bball at all. Frankly, it would be a terribly unfair idea to ask Allen and Kennard to run the team next year. And there are no high school guys available that would be ready to run the team next year (if ever). So that leaves the grad transfer market.

I think that the plan coming into this season was to expect Tyus Jones to return and to have Sulaimon back him up. And that was a fine plan. Maybe Jones will stay and we can essentially stick with that plan, subbing Kennard or Allen in as the backup PG.

But the reality is that the plan prior to the season may be out the window. Sulaimon is gone, and Tyus Jones may go pro. So at least one of our options is gone, and the other may be gone too. If Jones stays, we will be okay. But if he goes, I think it is absolutely the right strategy to go after a grad transfer
Rather than to through our inexperienced SGs to the wolves as PGs.

[Kedsy]

Okay, panicking is a strong word. But Duke should probably be preparing for the scenario in which they have seven players for next year, and making plans to fill out the roster from there.

I agree. Except (a) if we want a top 30 type high school senior, and we're not already involved in recruiting that particular player, the chances of landing him at this late date would be slim to none; (b) there's no way to know yet what 5th year type guys will be available and talking to them during the season is probably forbidden anyway; and (c) if all we want are sub-100 guys or frankly, sub-50 guys, my guess is there are plenty of uncommitted players who would drop whatever else they've got going on and agree to play for Duke. I also think that number won't change much prior to the Spring signing period, so other than identifying who they are there's not much preparation necessary until we have a much better idea where Tyus and Justise are leaning.