MBB: Notre Dame 77, Duke 73 Post-Game Thread

[JBDuke]

Put your post-game thoughts here.

[Les Grossman]

story of the game

[fisheyes]

Who can teach free throw shooting?

[91devil]

We were (generally) good. They were better. Congrats, ND.

[Duke3517]

Not a bad loss... But need a win on Saturday

[Les Grossman]

Grant

[DRC]

We were outplayed ...and just ATROCIOUS free throw shooting. Grant's a monster and ND wanted it more.

[FerryFor50]

Duke gave this one away, NCSU style.

Missed layups, giving up critical offensive rebounds and 2nd chance points, missed FTs... and some head scratching offense after building a 10 point lead.

We knew the defense would be an issue against ND but did not think they'd have trouble scoring down the stretch like they did.

Game was over once Grant hit that impossible fadeaway after he fumbled the ball away. Can't make as many mistakes as Duke did and survive shots like that.

Really not sure how ND survives so many of these types of games.

ACC reg season championship is pretty much out of the question now.

[grossbus]

Oh, and

Matt jones leaving the three point shooter.

I still don't get his defensive cred.

[Furniture]

On the other hand it could have easily been a W.

[jmck214]

Really seems like we out played them. Alot of lucky bounces capped by grants runner after tyus picked his pocket. Also the assist of the notre dame players foot stands out as another flukey play in the first half. Good thing is we have them in cameron in 10 days and we should have an extra edge after losing a game like this

[#1Duke]

Missed free throws and gimmes for sure and poor defense down low. Okafor is going to have to embrace defensive play.

[ChrisP]

Ugh, very winnable game - even with Grant playing out of his mind and random white dudes nailing clutch 3's and 68% shooters hitting the front end of a VERY big 1 and 1. As someone else said, missed FT's and chippies killed us tonight.

[Troublemaker]

Oh, and

Matt jones leaving the three point shooter.

I still don't get his defensive cred.

lol that works 99% of the time. Grant made a big-time pass. you will notice Matt got in front of an ND guy for a boxout.

blaming Matt for that play is not cool, imo.

[gurufrisbee]

Well that sucked.

It's not like we all couldn't see that the gross inability of our big men to shoot free throws was going to cost us a game sooner or later.

But it still sucks.

And good grief that Grant shot was too lucky.

[burns15]

Oh, and

Matt jones leaving the three poin shooter.

I still don't get his defensive cred.

Why does every single team we play have a guard absolutely go off against us? Unless we play the zone that is...Either adjustments have not been made (coaching staff) or this team just doesn't have it defensively. Oh how I wish for the days when we actually defended, even when we didnt have a big man in the middle (a la the year Singler played the 5).

[Edouble]

3-4 from the line and 0-1 on easy ones got Okafor some pine towards the end of the game.

If they go small and the best center in the country can't get it done, you gotta go small too. Good moves by Coach K late.

Notre Dame is an unorthodox team with several talented offensive players and a very good coach. I hope we come away stronger for this loss.

[Furniture]

We were outplayed ...and just ATROCIOUS free throw shooting. Grant's a monster and ND wanted it more.

I didn't see it like that at all...

[Dukehky]

We gave that game away. We make 3 more layups and 60% of fts and we win handily. Takes those lucky-ish plays out of the equation. Terrible loss. This is not one that K will explain away, he's going to be pissed.

[FerryFor50]

lol that works 99% of the time. Grant made a big-time pass. you will notice Matt got in front of an ND guy for a boxout.

blaming Matt for that play is not cool, imo.

Matt left his man to cover the cutter. If he didn't, Grant passes to him for an easy layup.

Grant got away with a lot of passes in mid air tonight. Not sure why Duke couldn't get turnovers after he got caught jumping.

[arnie]

story of the game

The great Duke teams of the past (even prior to K) simply made their free throws. This is a good team but not a great team. Free throws do matter, and its hard to have players in the game at key times that can't make them.

[Troublemaker]

Duke gave this one away

Yup!

Should've had a 10-pt half-time lead if not for turnovers and missed chippies.

FT shooting killed us down the stretch.

Overall, I'm encouraged because we outplayed them, imo. But a tough loss to swallow. We blew it.

[dukebluesincebirth]

Very disappointing. Does this team practice free throw shooting? Okafor, Jefferson kill us from the line. They each need to be made to shoot and make 500/night before going to bed. We should've won this game.

[fgb]

we either improve our ft shooting, or plan on an early upset in march.

[CDu]

We blew that game. Not much more can be said. Missed free throws, missed layups, silly turnovers.

The sad part is that our defense (aside from several missed assignments by Okafor early and a few gaffes by Tyus Jones late) played well enough to win. We kept one of the best offenses around to fairly below their efficiency before the end game. But we just gave away too many possessions.

You just can't win scoring only 10 points over the final 8 minutes of the game against an offense like that. Given how bad they are defensively, it is even more inexcusable.

Sadly, I think our chances at the regular season crown (and top seed in the ACC) went away. And now we might be sweating for that bye, too, as we are looking up at a LOT of teams.

[Dukehky]

Why does every single team we play have a guard absolutely go off against us? Unless we play the zone that is...Either adjustments have not been made (coaching staff) or this team just doesn't have it defensively. Oh how I wish for the days when we actually defended, even when we didnt have a big man in the middle (a la the year Singler played the 5).

I thought Cook played really well defensively. It was the assists that troubled me. Look at Grant's points. 2 were on that faraway loose ball, then he hit 2 threes from really deep with hands right in his face. Cook is 5 inches shorter than him and I thought did a really good job. Those guards go off against us because they are good players who are excited to play Duke and also have nothing to lose. That's a recipe for a big game, every time.

[Karl Beem]

I think we would have done better if Jah had backed up Marshall.

[Duvall]

I think we would have done better if Jah had backed up Marshall.

That's a pretty dumb thing to think.

[subzero02]

This game hurts on several levels... We really need to win on Saturday.

[duke09hms]

I thought Cook played really well defensively. It was the assists that troubled me. Look at Grant's points. 2 were on that faraway loose ball, then he hit 2 threes from really deep with hands right in his face. Cook is 5 inches shorter than him and I thought did a really good job. Those guards go off against us because they are good players who are excited to play Duke and also have nothing to lose. That's a recipe for a big game, every time.

That's why I think we're going to be susceptible to guards going off on us due to us playing 2 small slow-ish guards almost all game.

That said, it was our offense that cost us tonight's game. Defense did well enough against the #1 offense to win.

[FerryFor50]

I thought Cook played really well defensively. It was the assists that troubled me. Look at Grant's points. 2 were on that faraway loose ball, then he hit 2 threes from really deep with hands right in his face. Cook is 5 inches shorter than him and I thought did a really good job. Those guards go off against us because they are good players who are excited to play Duke and also have nothing to lose. That's a recipe for a big game, every time.

Agreed for the most part. I mean, that logic applies to guys like Angel Rodriguez.

But Grant is a solid 6'5" guard that is NBA material. He was going to score.

A lot of those assists were on passes after he got caught in the air. If you stick to your man, he has no where to go and turns it over.

[Dukehky]

I think we would have done better if Jah had backed up Marshall.

K, so you're a troll and probably need to go.

Also, only the 3rd loss of the year and this is the first game we actually blew. I'd rather blow a game in January than March.

Also, whoever said this type of performance leads to early upsets in March, that is ridiculous. There is no way a 15/14/13 seed can beat us with our line up. This is a way better team than last year. Look at who we've beaten. Justise tried to guard Grant tonight and did a good job early in the 2nd half but I really don't think he's healthy. Healthy Winslow masks a lot of things on defense

[Duke79UNLV77]

Oh, and

Matt jones leaving the three point shooter.

I still don't get his defensive cred.

In Matt's defense on that play, Tyus got caught half-helping on Grant and left his man cutting to the basket. Matt went to help on Tyus's man, which left Matt's man open. The freshmen can lose their focus on defense. If they want a championship, they need to win it as much at that end as on offense.

Could be 4 games out of 1st if we lose on the road to Virginia. On paper a more winnable stretch after that. Hopefully, we can pull the upset this weekend. The missed free throws and layup a cost us this one.

[Billy Dat]

Missed layups, giving up critical offensive rebounds and 2nd chance points, missed FTs... and some head scratching offense after building a 10 point lead.


This echoes my feeling, that our offensive choices when up 10 were suspect. First off, when we built the lead, Brey did a good job combining timeouts with TV timeouts to deflate our momentum. I'd have to go back and watch the tape, but we seemed to be unbalanced on the court so that missed shots led to run-outs and high percentage looks, I think about the 3 Quinn took from the corner on a break, Justise airmailed that cross court pass 5 rows into the stands, etc. I felt like there was too much time left with us up big and we lost focus.

By contrast, they make a run and suddenly we are on our heels and the clock isn't our friend. It seemed like they erased the lead quickly, but, boom, there's only 5 minutes left and there's game pressure.

But, if we hit some free throws and if Jah makes a few of those close ones where he was single guarded...

Coulda shoulda woulda.

That one hurts.

[Karl Beem]

That's a pretty dumb thing to think.

How would you know?

[fisheyes]

Reality check folks...turn on CNN now and watch "Voices of Auschwitz".

[jasoninchina]

As others have said before I could, missed free throws were the difference in this game. All other things being equal if we hit our normal percentage, we barely win this game. My underlying assumption, of course, is that nothing else would have changed which I am not sure is a reasonable assumption on my part!

[dukelifer]

Very frustrating game. Too many mistakes and lack of execution at the end. This Duke team has talent but they are not ready for prime time. The goal now is to make the tourney and hope that they can make a run. Lots of learning left to do. Played like an inexperienced team tonight.

[Edouble]

That's why I think we're going to be susceptible to guards going off on us due to us playing 2 small slow-ish guards almost all game.

It's a concern, but I think with (healthy) Winslow and Sulaimon, we will have the players to clamp down on opposing guards in March.

The free throws from our front court is worrisome and brings back memories of Jason Williams.

[CDu]

That's why I think we're going to be susceptible to guards going off on us due to us playing 2 small slow-ish guards almost all game.

That said, it was our offense that cost us tonight's game. Defense did well enough against the #1 offense to win.

The problem is that we have only one guy quicker that Cook and Jones (Matt Jones), snd he is a big step down offensively. Sulaimon is slightly bigger, but not quicker and doesn't really seem better defensively.

All that said, we played decently defensivelt tonight given the quality of opponent. We lost this game on the offensive end, with a lack of poise and poor free throw shooting.

[hurleyfor3]

Reality check folks...turn on CNN now and watch "Voices of Auschwitz".

Or "My 600lb Life" on TLC.

[Dukehky]

One of these days, Okafor is going to start getting some of the and 1 calls he deserves. If I were him, I couldn't wait to get the NBA if for no other reason than he will be rewarded when he gets beat to hell every night.

[FerryFor50]

Very frustrating game. Too many mistakes and lack of execution at the end. This Duke team has talent but they are not ready for prime time. The goal now is to make the tourney and hope that they can make a run. Lots of learning left to do. Played like an inexperienced team tonight.

Were they ready for prime time against Louisville? Or clawing back against St. Johns?

I think they'll be fine. They played well overall.

[Karl Beem]

K, so you're a troll and probably need to go.

Also, only the 3rd loss of the year and this is the first game we actually blew. I'd rather blow a game in January than March.

Also, whoever said this type of performance leads to early upsets in March, that is ridiculous. There is no way a 15/14/13 seed can beat us with our line up. This is a way better team than last year. Look at who we've beaten. Justise tried to guard Grant tonight and did a good job early in the 2nd half but I really don't think he's healthy. Healthy Winslow masks a lot of things on defense

Troll!?! I've been on this board since Juliovision - and haven't posted anonymously

[Duvall]

I am looking forward to Duke not losing a game in February, though.

[6th Man]

As great as Okafor is he is a liability down the stretch. Other teams would be insane not to foul him. I have visions of that killing us in the tourney. It's ridiculous this team is 4-3 in the ACC looking at 4-4 if they don't win at UVA. Too much talent for that regardless of our tough conference schedule.

[KandG]

When it was a 10 point game, you figured ND would come back. But the key was when Duke got in the bonus early, and proceeded to blow nearly every FT going into the double bonus. In a tight road game against an intelligent opponent, that's fatal.

Even after ND tied it, Duke still had a chance to pull it out with sounder play, but overall the last 10 minutes featured largely impotent offense and bad breaks all the way around.

Don't have much hope for Saturday, other than a good effort and a sign of greater composure in situations like this versus good teams (i.e. not St. John's).

[jipops]

The free throws from our front court is worrisome and brings back memories of Jason Williams.

When was he a front court player?

[pfrduke]

Matt left his man to cover the cutter. If he didn't, Grant passes to him for an easy layup.

Grant got away with a lot of passes in mid air tonight. Not sure why Duke couldn't get turnovers after he got caught jumping.

Yeah, if anyone slipped on the play it was Tyus, who got caught ball watching Grant and let Jackson cut by him. Matt helped to stop the cutter, as he should, and no one was able to close to Vasturia fast enough.

[Kjeffrey]

Missed free throws and gimmes for sure and poor defense down low. Okafor is going to have to embrace defensive play.

His defense can be a liability for this team at times. I felt the same way about Hood and Parker last year. It appears poor defense by some players is overlooked by the coaching staff. We all know what happen when others, such as Sulaimon, play poor defense.

[CDu]

One of these days, Okafor is going to start getting some of the and 1 calls he deserves. If I were him, I couldn't wait to get the NBA if for no other reason than he will be rewarded when he gets beat to hell every night.

To be fair, he also bails defenders out by going with slinky finesse moves that avoid fouls. Sometimes it works, but he missed multiple of those.

And also, he was terrible from the line, so I am not sure it would have helped to get another call or two.

[FerryFor50]

This echoes my feeling, that our offensive choices when up 10 were suspect. First off, when we built the lead, Brey did a good job combining timeouts with TV timeouts to deflate our momentum. I'd have to go back and watch the tape, but we seemed to be unbalanced on the court so that missed shots led to run-outs and high percentage looks, I think about the 3 Quinn took from the corner on a break, Justise airmailed that cross court pass 5 rows into the stands, etc. I felt like there was too much time left with us up big and we lost focus.

By contrast, they make a run and suddenly we are on our heels and the clock isn't our friend. It seemed like they erased the lead quickly, but, boom, there's only 5 minutes left and there's game pressure.

But, if we hit some free throws and if Jah makes a few of those close ones where he was single guarded...

Coulda shoulda woulda.

That one hurts.

What happened to stall ball when you need it?

[duke09hms]

It's a concern, but I think with (healthy) Winslow and Sulaimon, we will have the players to clamp down on opposing guards in March.

The free throws from our front court is worrisome and brings back memories of Jason Williams.

That's not gonna help if we keep playing Quinn and Tyus at the SAME time. We could get it so they both get 35 mins, and only 15 mins sees them playing at the same time. Together they're a defensive liability.

[azzefkram]

Wow. We sort of snatched defeat from the jaws of victory there. Very disappointing.

[dyedwab]

I really wish that basketball had a statistic like tennis does - "unforced errors"

It wasn't just the missed FTs. In the first half we had a number of just sloppy plays(Jahlil running the break, Marshall's silly pass) that cost us....

UND played really, really well.

But we gave them the game....

[ScreechTDX1847]

I think everyone needs to temper their expectations for this team. First off, no shame in losing on the road to a top 10 team. The truth is that even though it felt like we outplayed them - not scoring more than 10 points in the last 8 minutes against that defense and that horrendous FT shooting means that we didn't.

I still have yet to see this team play angry or play match the toughness of their opponents. We are very talented but lack the mentality and killer instinct of an elite team. I want to see someone take their defensive assignment personally. Regardless of what K does I'm not sure this team is going completely change it's personality. It feels like we have to just have a hot shooting night to win games and we are losing anytime it is a grind it out ugly game. Good teams win those games!!!

I hope I'm wrong but looking at out schedule I see an 11-7 ACC record looming. We lose this Saturday and this team is going to have to do some soul searching and start taking these losses personally.

[tbyers11]

Oh, and

Matt jones leaving the three point shooter.

I still don't get his defensive cred.

That was Matt's man but Tyus was the one who screwed up on the play. Tyus turned his head, his man cut back door and if Matt hadn't come off his man to help on Tyus' man Grant could have passed to the guy cutting for a layup

[CDu]

Yeah, if anyone slipped on the play it was Tyus, who got caught ball watching Grant and let Jackson cut by him. Matt helped to stop the cutter, as he should, and no one was able to close to Vasturia fast enough.

Yeah it was definitely Tyus Jones, who was standing aimlessly guarding no one. Also, gotta ding Tyus for bailing on the previous bucket after he half-stripped Grant. You can't allow Grant to get around you and get the ball. Jones seemed to start to break upcourt a step rather than securing the ball. Freshman mistakes.

[Edouble]

Very frustrating game. Too many mistakes and lack of execution at the end. This Duke team has talent but they are not ready for prime time. The goal now is to make the tourney and hope that they can make a run. Lots of learning left to do. Played like an inexperienced team tonight.

I'd go so far as to say alot of talent. I agree that we're not ready yet, but don't sell the team so short. A more experienced team would have won tonight. We're a young basketball team, and still a work in progress.

An ACC Championship and a #1 seed are still obtainable. It's still (barely) January. I doubt that Coach K is thinking that making the the tourney and hoping the chips fall favorably is the new goal.

There's a lot of talent in the Duke refrigerator. We've just got to figure out what goes in the soup. I trust in Coach K.

[dukelifer]

Were they ready for prime time against Louisville? Or clawing back against St. Johns?

I think they'll be fine. They played well overall.

For a team learning - they played well- but for a team attempting to get a top seed- they did not. They let this one get away from lack of execution. This team is not one of the elite teams right now- but they will get better. Hopefully they have enough runway left to take off.

[FerryFor50]

I think everyone needs to temper their expectations for this team. First off, no shame in losing on the road to a top 10 team. The truth is that even though it felt like we outplayed them - not scoring more than 10 points in the last 8 minutes against that defense and that horrendous FT shooting means that we didn't.

I still have yet to see this team play angry or play match the toughness of their opponents. We are very talented but lack the mentality and killer instinct of an elite team. I want to see someone take their defensive assignment personally. Regardless of what K does I'm not sure this team is going completely change it's personality. It feels like we have to just have a hot shooting night to win games and we are losing anytime it is a grind it out ugly game. Good teams win those games!!!

I hope I'm wrong but looking at out schedule I see an 11-7 ACC record looming. We lose this Saturday and this team is going to have to do some soul searching and start taking these losses personally.

As I mentioned in a previous post, the Louisville and St John's games are examples of the type of Duke team this team can be.

I'd also point to the Wake Forest game (where Devin Thomas went off but Justise Winslow matched his intensity).

[Duvall]

I hope I'm wrong but looking at out schedule I see an 11-7 ACC record looming.

That would require Duke to lose every game remaining against a top 50 opponent, including the two at home. Not likely.

[gumbomoop]

Lost tonight for a combination of reasons, including ND's good play, clutch/lucky shots. But FT issues will be relevant against any good opponent.

Duke has the FT advantage late-game if protecting a lead, with Quinn and Tyus. But in last 3-4 minutes toss-ups, can't play both Amile and Jahlil. And Jahlil's FT problems tonight will be noticed by upcoming opponents. If they're well-coached, they will not let him get off a shot. Even if in double-bonus, a tired Jahlil isn't likely to make 2.

Moreover, against strong opponents, missed FTs by Amile and Jahlil in first 30-35 minutes of the game make a late-game toss-up more likely. So their weak FT shooting is double jeopardy. Makes moving out to strong lead more difficult, and makes winning close more difficult.

Depending on late-game situation, we have a big FT advantage, or big disadvantage.

[jmck214]

Very frustrating game. Too many mistakes and lack of execution at the end. This Duke team has talent but they are not ready for prime time. The goal now is to make the tourney and hope that they can make a run. Lots of learning left to do. Played like an inexperienced team tonight.

Well the goal is not to make the tourney as we knew in October that we'd be in. The goal is seeding and geography. The first round is in Charlotte and there are two spots between Duke, UVA, and UNC. We need to go to Charlotte especially since I already booked my flight from RI for that weekend.

[CameronDuke]

At times I saw some beautiful things. Tyus had some super drives for layups, Quinn came out hot as a firecracker in the first half and couldn't miss, and free throw shooting aside, Jah had a dominant game offensively. I still think if he was a 70% free throw shooter he could average 22ish PPG. I also liked to see Justise seem to get his jump shot and offensive swagger back tonight. We will need him to have any shot of winning in March this season.

Obviously, we struggle at the line and at making close in layups or utilizing the backboard. That's just a confidence thing. I think it's becoming mental for Jah. His stroke at times doesn't look awful. In fact, when he's shooting with confidence, he has a good stroke. He just needs to clear his head and play basketball. He must improve his defensive footwork and awareness to reach his potential this year. He let their big man #30 get lost in space a few times for easy dunks off of drives. We need to all do a better job of finding a man and boxing out on shots the opponent misses to eliminate second chance points. I thought we became too one dimensional during our dry spell in the 2nd half when ND was making their run. We seemed content to keep pounding it into Jah when both Quinn and Tyus had hot hands. Quinn and TJ drove to the hole relatively successfully tonight at times and rather than making entry passes to Jah from the high post, I would have preferred driving TJ or Quinn off a high ball screen and either pulling up for a mid range jumper, dishing it to Jah if the defense sags off, or attempting a layup.

We have a huge test Saturday at UVa. Anything resembling the concentration and overall effort we displayed in the last 10 minutes tonight will get us beaten and beaten rather badly. We can win at UVa if we play a near flawless game but we are really going to have to execute simple fundamentals much better to have any shot of pulling off the upset.

[GGLC]

As soon as we went up by ten I knew we were sunk. :(

[CajunDevil]

All of the gimmes that rimmed out and the bounces ND got - not to mention a 30' 3 from Grant then the prayer... Luck wasn't on our side. Overall we played well enough to win we just didn't make the plays down the stretch. We need games like this to gain maturity and get older. Our D is getting better. We are getting better. I can't wait to see how we respond at UVA.

[duke09hms]

The problem is that we have only one guy quicker that Cook and Jones (Matt Jones), snd he is a big step down offensively. Sulaimon is slightly bigger, but not quicker and doesn't really seem better defensively.


I still think the tradeoff of playing Tyus-Matt/Sheed and Quinn-Matt/Sheed would be worth it for the step up and defense. Neither Matt or Sheed are incapable on offense like say a Lance Thomas. And they don't need to be bigger AND faster (though I'd say Sheed is definitely quicker than Tyus/Quinn), the two guards up top need to be complementary on defense like Scheyer and Smith were. Scheyer being a slower but bigger and smarter defender and Smith being a smaller but faster more athletic defender.

Quinn and Tyus are both small and relatively slower. It's really hard to win with TWO guys that are smaller AND slower.

[Edouble]

When was he a front court player?

He wasn't. He was a superstar player that struggled with free throws (like Okafor). I know you know what I mean. Quit clogging up the thread.

[CDu]

That would require Duke to lose every game remaining against a top 50 opponent, including the two at home. Not likely.

Agreed, though 13-5 seems a distinct possibility, and 12-6 is by no means out of the question.

[Kjeffrey]

K, so you're a troll and probably need to go.

Also, only the 3rd loss of the year and this is the first game we actually blew. I'd rather blow a game in January than March.

Also, whoever said this type of performance leads to early upsets in March, that is ridiculous. There is no way a 15/14/13 seed can beat us with our line up. This is a way better team than last year. Look at who we've beaten. Justise tried to guard Grant tonight and did a good job early in the 2nd half but I really don't think he's healthy. Healthy Winslow masks a lot of things on defense

I will not overreact to the loss tonight. However, some troubling things have surfaced for this team in recent weeks. If improvements are not made then I believe this team is vulnerable to being beaten in the first round. I am not saying it will happen but it is certainly possible. Poor defense and poor FT shooting could be trouble against any team in the tournament.

[Billy Dat]

What happened to stall ball when you need it?

I'm not sure even K would go for that with 12 to go.

It's too bad we coughed that one up because when we were up 10 I was reveling in a rejuvenated Justise and another dominant performance by Tyus let alone the stellar showings of Quinn and Jah.

ND really does a nice job on offense, they kind of get you on roller skates, worrying about all that shooting.

I have to say that it is really frustrating to see Grant drive it right into Jah's chest and finish at the rim only to see Quinn then get stuffed by Grant at the rim on the final meaningful play of the game. Hats off to Grant, though, he played a great game.

[arnie]

Also, whoever said this type of performance leads to early upsets in March, that is ridiculous. There is no way a 15/14/13 seed can beat us with our line up. This is a way better team than last year. Look at who we've beaten. Justise tried to guard Grant tonight and did a good job early in the 2nd half but I really don't think he's healthy. Healthy Winslow masks a lot of things on defense
Are you serious? We've lost to 15 seeds 2 of the past 3 years with OADs leading the way. No team goes thru the year injury free, and with only 8 rotation players, a significant injury could disrupt the balance. I think this team can make a run, but could very easily go out in the 1st round.

[gcashwell]

We probably beat ND 7 out of 10 times. Hopefully this will light a fire under the team.

I have been very disappointed with okafor' effort at times. Maybe he doesn't want to get hurt?

I would love to see a zone with okafor and plumlee down low. To make it work, plumlee has to be able to catch a pass on offense though.
That scheme change and an increase in intensity by okafor are two of the things I would like to see most in the next two weeks. We can work on learning how to play defense for a little while longer.

[jipops]

Really I don't think this is a bad loss at all. The defense actually showed something tonight. Very odd that we couldn't score down the stretch against such a poor defensive team but this Duke team isn't an especially strong shooting team.

The ACC crown was lost with the Miami game. We weren't going to beat both ND and UVA at their place. Hopefully we can still get one of them. It will take all the sting out of tonight and would make us 4 out of the last 5 which is pretty darn good given the recent schedule.

[FerryFor50]

I'm not sure even K would go for that with 12 to go.

It's too bad we coughed that one up because when we were up 10 I was reveling in a rejuvenated Justise and another dominant performance by Tyus let alone the stellar showings of Quinn and Jah.

ND really does a nice job on offense, they kind of get you on roller skates, worrying about all that shooting.

I have to say that it is really frustrating to see Grant drive it right into Jah's chest and finish at the rim only to see Quinn then get stuffed by Grant at the rim on the final meaningful play of the game. Hats off to Grant, though, he played a great game.

Yea I got a little too happy when they went up 10, too.

ND moves the ball really, really well (outside of the garbage jump in the air bailout passes Grant made). That's tough for any team to defend, and why they are #1 in offense.

[CDu]

I still think the tradeoff of playing Tyus-Matt/Sheed and Quinn-Matt/Sheed would be worth it for the step up and defense. Neither Matt or Sheed are incapable on offense like say a Lance Thomas. And they don't need to be bigger AND faster (though I'd say Sheed is definitely quicker than Tyus/Quinn), the two guards up top need to be complementary on defense like Scheyer and Smith were. Scheyer being a slower but bigger and smarter defender and Smith being a smaller but faster more athletic defender.

Quinn and Tyus are both small and relatively slower. It's really hard to win with TWO guys that are smaller AND slower.

Again, the issue is that while we might be better defensively, we would be worse offensively. Not sure which tradeoff wins.

And Sulaimon is not quicker. People think he is because he can run fast and tries hard, but he is deceptively not quick. He had a bit of the concrete feet syndrome.

[wgl1228]

Only 3 losses this year, its just been a tough January. Toughest part of schedule. We gave this one away no doubt though. Anyone notice how one guy has a career night everytime we play big game. This team has to play zone!

[FerryFor50]

I would love to see a zone with okafor and plumlee down low.

They did that a few times tonight. Wasn't that great, but wasn't bad either.

[Duvall]

We probably beat ND 7 out of 10 times. Hopefully this will light a fire under the team.

I have been very disappointed with okafor' effort at times. Maybe he doesn't want to get hurt?

What a bizarre thing to say, especially tonight.

[Dukehky]

In the post game presser, K is finally working the refs publicly for how poorly they officiate Jah.

[FerryFor50]

Again, the issue is that while we might be better defensively, we would be worse offensively. Not sure which tradeoff wins.

And Sulaimon is not quicker. People think he is because he can run fast and tries hard, but he is deceptively not quick. He had a bit of the concrete feet syndrome.

And he's way too handsy. Lots of touch fouls on the perimeter after he gets caught flat footed.

Deceptively quick is an accurate assessment. Great straight line speed, but not great lateral quickness.

[Duvall]

In the post game presser, K is finally working the refs publicly for how poorly they officiate Jah.

It's been disgraceful all year.

[Dukehky]

And he's way too handsy. Lots of touch fouls on the perimeter after he gets caught flat footed.

Deceptively quick is an accurate assessment. Great straight line speed, but not great lateral quickness.

Sulaimon's movement reminds me of Gollum when he runs.

[Saratoga2]

Yes we missed too many free throws. Yes we missed a lot of rim outs. Yes we made a lot of careless plays, particularly during the early part of the game and a few late as well. Yes, Jahlil's defense is a little weak. I also thought ND was out hustling us toward the end of game.

With that said, we got up by 10 by doing a lot of things very well. Tyus was great in that stretch going to the basket and we got the ball to Jahlil often. Notre Dame seemed to pack in a little and we stopped getting the ball to Jahlil. I don't think he touched the ball more than once in that stretch where we gave away the lead. Tyus stopped penetrating. We need to learn from the game and not go into a brain freeze by going away from what worked. If we can hold the lead to the last few minutes, we have the foul shooting guards who can hold the lead.

I noticed that Justise hit 3 threes, which is a positive for the team. Quinn turned in his normal good game and Matt fought hard. On the other hand, Amile didn't seem to have much impact on the game. Marshall certainly hustled out there but ND went small and MP3 didn't get minutes.

[ChillinDuke]

Were they ready for prime time against Louisville? Or clawing back against St. Johns?

I think they'll be fine. They played well overall.

Agree with this. I can't be overly kissed about this one. We played well enough.

Poor FT shooting was costly, but we knew that going in. Defense was good enough versus a good offense. On the road. Big game.

Stinks to lose. But I'm ok with this one. Unfortunately, I can be ok with the next one too and we could have lost 2 in a row.

- Chillin

[Edouble]

Again, the issue is that while we might be better defensively, we would be worse offensively. Not sure which tradeoff wins.

And Sulaimon is not quicker. People think he is because he can run fast and tries hard, but he is deceptively not quick. He had a bit of the concrete feet syndrome.

Sulaimon not quicker than Quinn on D? That's crazy, yo.

“He (Rasheed Sulaimon) is our best on-ball defender. At 6-4, he’s an outstanding athlete. That’s what he does the best." --Coach K 10/21/14

[jipops]

We probably beat ND 7 out of 10 times. Hopefully this will light a fire under the team.

I have been very disappointed with okafor' effort at times. Maybe he doesn't want to get hurt?

I would love to see a zone with okafor and plumlee down low. To make it work, plumlee has to be able to catch a pass on offense though.
That scheme change and an increase in intensity by okafor are two of the things I would like to see most in the next two weeks. We can work on learning how to play defense for a little while longer.

Yea 17 boards is really sandbagging.

[vrob90]

Considering the perspective of just a few months ago, this season is turning into a disappointment. I thought then that Kentucky was probably the only team in the country that could beat Duke. Like a lot of other folks, I was wrong. A good team, but definitely a let down.

[tbyers11]

I will not overreact to the loss tonight. However, some troubling things have surfaced for this team in recent weeks. If improvements are not made then I believe this team is vulnerable to being beaten in the first round. I am not saying it will happen but it is certainly possible. Poor defense and poor FT shooting could be trouble against any team in the tournament.

Care to be a little more concrete about your "troubling things"? We lost our poise against NCST and Miami.

We did a lot of little things poorly tonight: careless turnovers in the 1st half, missed chippies all game long, not working hard to get the ball into Okafor when ND made their run, and missed FTs that led to us losing along with a miraculous shot by Grant after the near Tyus steal.

However, we did a lot of big things right tonight against a top 10 team at their house. I'm pissed that we lost but am overall trending upward about this team much moreso than after Miami. Unless we win against UVa, there is probably no way we get a #1 seed in the NCAA tourney so there is a CHANCE that we could lose in the first round I just think it's highly unlikely.

[Duvall]

Considering the perspective of just a few months ago, this season is turning into a disappointment. I thought then that Kentucky was probably the only team in the country that could beat Duke. Like a lot of other folks, I was wrong. A good team, but definitely a let down.

I guess we'll have to dock the players' pay, then.

Duke is 17-3 and come Saturday will have the toughest part of their schedule behind them. The plausible subsequent month-long winning streak should perk up some spirits around here.

[azzefkram]

That was Matt's man but Tyus was the one who screwed up on the play. Tyus turned his head, his man cut back door and if Matt hadn't come off his man to help on Tyus' man Grant could have passed to the guy cutting for a layup

A lot of people are saying this but a layup doesn't put the game out of reach. That three did. Given the situation, Matt should have stayed with his man.

[tbyers11]

In the post game presser, K is finally working the refs publicly for how poorly they officiate Jah.

Good. Several games he just gets hammered with no calls. NCST comes to mind. It's like the refs think "he is just so much bigger we will make him work through contact that we would call on a lesser guy"

[FerryFor50]

Also, for everyone chalking this loss up to another reason why Duke will be susceptible to a first round NCAA exit, keep in mind that EVERY team except the #1 seeds are susceptible to a first round exit.

[NashvilleDevil]

Are you serious? We've lost to 15 seeds 2 of the past 3 years with OADs leading the way. No team goes thru the year injury free, and with only 8 rotation players, a significant injury could disrupt the balance. I think this team can make a run, but could very easily go out in the 1st round.

Mercer was a 15 seed? How is that possible?

[CDu]

One thing needs to be made clear: Notre Dame is an AWESOME offensive team. Jerian Grant is one of the absolute best players in college. He is no joke. He played very well even for him, but this was not some otherwordly experience for him.

I thought we played generally okay defensively. Okafor got lost several times and Tyus Jones made a couple of mental lapses late. But in general we played okay defensively given the foe.

HOWEVER, we really blew it on offense. We really lacked poise down the stretch, and gave the game away. Notre Dame is about as bad defensively as they are good offensively, so there is no excuse of our long stretch of futility later in the game. We have to be more poised. And we have to be better from the line.

On the one hand, it is nice to see us play well for most of the game against a talented, veteran team. On the other, it is frustrating to see the more talented team lose again, and in a way that makes you question the team's focus and poise.

Here's hoping this sparks the team. Seems like all the momentum of the St. John's comeback is now gone.

[FerryFor50]

A lot of people are saying this but a layup doesn't put the game out of reach. That three did. Given the situation, Matt should have stayed with his man.

I'd give up a three over an open layup any day. Even a wide open three. Tougher shot to hit.

[Billy Dat]

The only thing putting me in a remotely good mood down the stretch of the game was watching the ESPN crawl describing Kyrie pasting the Blazers for 55 including a game winning 3 in the final 7 seconds. #glasshalffull

[ScreechTDX1847]

Agreed, though 13-5 seems a distinct possibility, and 12-6 is by no means out of the question.

We lose to UVA this weekend and that means we only lose one more game the rest of the regular season to get to 13-5. I see a loss @UNC and 2 others. One we don't expect.

[vrob90]

I guess we'll have to dock the players' pay, then.

Duke is 17-3 and come Saturday will have the toughest part of their schedule behind them. The plausible subsequent month-long winning streak should perk up some spirits around here.

I suppose. Either that or play more zone.

[CDu]

A lot of people are saying this but a layup doesn't put the game out of reach. That three did. Given the situation, Matt should have stayed with his man.

No, you don't give up the layup. What you have just said goes against everything Coach K stands for. Tyus Jones has to recognize the rotation and cover the shooter.

[tbyers11]

A lot of people are saying this but a layup doesn't put the game out of reach. That three did. Given the situation, Matt should have stayed with his man.

Disagree. Sure it ended up that way. But I think you take away a ~80% chance of making a lightly contested layup for a 35% chance at a 3 pointer.

[Duvall]

I suppose. Either that or play more zone.

Duke will probably play more zone on nights when they are playing less Notre Dame.

[CDu]

Sulaimon not quicker than Quinn on D? That's crazy, yo.

“He (Rasheed Sulaimon) is our best on-ball defender. At 6-4, he’s an outstanding athlete. That’s what he does the best." --Coach K 10/21/14

In theory yes. In practice, no. His feet seem to move in slo-mo.

[FerryFor50]

Disagree. Sure it ended up that way. But I think you take away a ~80% chance of making a lightly contested layup for a 35% chance at a 3 pointer.

On a related note, Steve Vasturia was 1-5 on the night. 1-3 from 3, with several wide open looks.

Guess which one he hit?

[gcashwell]

They did that a few times tonight. Wasn't that great, but wasn't bad either.

I thought they played man with it?

[hurleyfor3]

On a related note, Steve Vasturia was 1-5 on the night. 1-3 from 3, with several wide open looks.

Guess which one he hit?

His life just peaked.

[vrob90]

Duke will probably play more zone on nights when they are playing less Notre Dame.

Definitely. Or when they want to employ a defense more suited to their players.

[FerryFor50]

I thought they played man with it?

They did both.

But doing it against ND wasn't the right team to do it against. You had a size advantage with your normal starting 5.

That MP3/Jah zone makes a lot more sense against a team like UNC.

[GGLC]

The only thing putting me in a remotely good mood down the stretch of the game was watching the ESPN crawl describing Kyrie pasting the Blazers for 55 including a game winning 3 in the final 7 seconds. #glasshalffull

Some of us are Blazers fans. :(

(And 49ers fans. Sigh. This has been a tough January.)

[arnie]

We lose to UVA this weekend and that means we only lose one more game the rest of the regular season to get to 13-5. I see a loss @UNC and 2 others. One we don't expect.

Yep. The UVA game is huge, another loss makes 11-7 very plausible. Clemson well ahead of State in Raleigh and we play them away (I think). Maybe that's what we need, go into the tourney as a 4-5 seed with no pressure.

[gcashwell]

They did both.

But doing it against ND wasn't the right team to do it against. You had a size advantage with your normal starting 5.

That MP3/Jah zone makes a lot more sense against a team like UNC.

Now that I think about it, I think you are right. I would love to see that offensively to, if plumlee could catch.

[FerryFor50]

Yep. The UVA game is huge, another loss makes 11-7 very plausible. Clemson well ahead of State in Raleigh and we play them away (I think). Maybe that's what we need, go into the tourney as a 4-5 seed with no pressure.

If you're seriously worried about Clemson this season, there isn't much hope for your overall outlook. :)

[Billy Dat]

On a related note, Steve Vasturia was 1-5 on the night. 1-3 from 3, with several wide open looks.

Guess which one he hit?

Of course he did. We gave them WAY too many chances, and, free throws aside, we lost that game from 12:00 - 8:00 in the second half when we let them back in based on our aforementioned horrendous offense.

The leprechauns were strong tonight...missed chippies, the Grant prayer, but we polished up that gold for him. I can't believe we are 0-2 in that gym since they joined the conference. We better beat them down at home.

[azzefkram]

I still think the tradeoff of playing Tyus-Matt/Sheed and Quinn-Matt/Sheed would be worth it for the step up and defense. Neither Matt or Sheed are incapable on offense like say a Lance Thomas. And they don't need to be bigger AND faster (though I'd say Sheed is definitely quicker than Tyus/Quinn), the two guards up top need to be complementary on defense like Scheyer and Smith were. Scheyer being a slower but bigger and smarter defender and Smith being a smaller but faster more athletic defender.

Quinn and Tyus are both small and relatively slower. It's really hard to win with TWO guys that are smaller AND slower.

Matt and Sheed are pretty big steps down offensively from either Quinn or Tyus. Defensively, Matt is an upgrade but not a huge one. Sheed is a marginal upgrade at best. The defense may be better but the offense would definitely be worse.

[Duvall]

Yep. The UVA game is huge, another loss makes 11-7 very plausible. Clemson well ahead of State in Raleigh and we play them away (I think). Maybe that's what we need, go into the tourney as a 4-5 seed with no pressure.

A) Duke plays Clemson in Cameron, where they've won four times *in history*; B) Clemson isn't good, and C) State probably going to come back and win tonight.

[azzefkram]

I'd give up a three over an open layup any day. Even a wide open three. Tougher shot to hit.

True but that ignores the situation. When Grant had the ball, I was more worried that he would take a step back three than drive it.

[CDu]

Matt and Sheed are pretty big steps down offensively from either Quinn or Tyus. Defensively, Matt is an upgrade but not a huge one. Sheed is a marginal upgrade at best. The defense may be better but the offense would definitely be worse.

Agreed. It is "pick your poison", and we are rolling with the better all-around players. Cook and Jones are weaker defensively, but much better offensively.

And again, we didn't lose this game on defense. We lost it on offense.

[FerryFor50]

True but that ignores the situation. When Grant had the ball, I was more worried that he would take a step back three than drive it.

I'd also take a Grant step back 3 there. He had missed a few of those earlier (after hitting one in the first half).

[jipops]

Considering the perspective of just a few months ago, this season is turning into a disappointment. I thought then that Kentucky was probably the only team in the country that could beat Duke. Like a lot of other folks, I was wrong. A good team, but definitely a let down.

Depends on your level of expectations. This team relies on 3 freshmen. We're talented but losses like tonight were just going to happen. The media loves to play things up that aren't real, and we buy into it. Experienced teams don't usually miss free throws down the stretch. Young teams tend to. I'm much more disappointed in the Miami loss than tonight.

There is way too much left this season to label anything as a disappointment.

[CDu]

I'd also take a Grant step back 3 there. He had missed a few of those earlier (after hitting one in the first half).

Agreed, although all of this overlooks the bigger problem on that play: Tyus Jones (a) did not pay attention to his man and (b) didn't rotate like he should have afterwards (nor did he do anything).

Matt Jones was in a no-win spot. If he doesn't help, it is a layup. If he does, he has to hope Tyus Jones does his job and rotates.

You can't just allow the layup. You have to trust your teammates to do their job.

[Billy Dat]

Some of us are Blazers fans. :(

(And 49ers fans. Sigh. This has been a tough January.)

My bad, GGLC...how about Lance getting a season high 17 to help lead the Knicks to a W over the Thunder? #DukiesintheNBA

[vrob90]

Depends on your level of expectations. This team relies on 3 freshmen. We're talented but losses like tonight were just going to happen. The media loves to play things up that aren't real, and we buy into it. Experienced teams don't usually miss free throws down the stretch. Young teams tend to. I'm much more disappointed in the Miami loss than tonight.

There is way too much left this season to label anything as a disappointment.

I understand. It's good that you feel OK about it.

[NYBri]

This game was as disappointing as the St. Johns game was satisfying. Still don't know how we lost this.

Yes, I do. Missed free throws. Front ends of 1 & 1's and basic bricks from the line.

[FerryFor50]

This game was as disappointing as the St. Johns game was satisfying. Still don't know how we lost this.

Yes, I do. Missed free throws. Front ends of 1 & 1's and basic bricks from the line.

Also, not protecting the 10 point lead to prevent FTs from ever being an issue.

[NancyCarol]

we are playing a lot of Freshmen. Exceptional talent, but not perfect and they are Freshmen. Other teams are good, it's not your daddy's ACC anymore. i didn't like all the turnovers, but it was a road game and stuff happens. As in all games, free throws, a missed layup, a bad shot...these can make the difference and they did. I'm as big a fan of Duke when they lose a game as when they win because the one thing that never changes is the class of the participants.

[freshmanjs]

I understand. It's good that you feel OK about it.

??? why would you not feel ok about it? are you playing?

[freshmanjs]

Other teams are good, it's not your daddy's ACC anymore.

what does this mean? the ACC is nowhere near the quality it was 25 years ago.

[FerryFor50]

Other teams are good, it's not your daddy's ACC anymore.

Eh, I'd say my daddy's ACC was way better.

But isn't everything older better?

[CDu]

Also, not protecting the 10 point lead to prevent FTs from ever being an issue.

Yup. Just a complete lack of poise. Which isn't a complete shock as we play three freshmen and our veterans aren't known for their poise.

[dukelifer]

One thing needs to be made clear: Notre Dame is an AWESOME offensive team. Jerian Grant is one of the absolute best players in college. He is no joke. He played very well even for him, but this was not some otherwordly experience for him.

I thought we played generally okay defensively. Okafor got lost several times and Tyus Jones made a couple of mental lapses late. But in general we played okay defensively given the foe.

HOWEVER, we really blew it on offense. We really lacked poise down the stretch, and gave the game away. Notre Dame is about as bad defensively as they are good offensively, so there is no excuse of our long stretch of futility later in the game. We have to be more poised. And we have to be better from the line.

On the one hand, it is nice to see us play well for most of the game against a talented, veteran team. On the other, it is frustrating to see the more talented team lose again, and in a way that makes you question the team's focus and poise.

Here's hoping this sparks the team. Seems like all the momentum of the St. John's comeback is now gone.

My sentiments exactly. Duke had a great win against St Johns and did not carry the momentum over to this game. Duke should have won the game but just did not execute - a sign of a young team. Missing free throws in critical situations opened the door. ND was feeling pressure and Duke let them off the hook with mistakes. All are correctable but this team can easily be on the losing end of a lot of close games. Looking at remaining games - there are a lot of land mines. At Florida State is always a tough game- Notre Dame at home will be a challenge given that they will have just played Duke- UNC is a very good team and they have also been winning close games which this will likely be. Duke has a lot of work to do.

[grossbus]

"That was Matt's man but Tyus was the one who screwed up on the play. Tyus turned his head, his man cut back door and if Matt hadn't come off his man to help on Tyus' man Grant could have passed to the guy cutting for a layup"

I did not see that and obviously many did. My bad.

[vrob90]

??? why would you not feel ok about it? are you playing?

Because my expectations, like most folks', were very high for this team and they've not been met. It's hard to understand, but there it is. Most of us, like most of the experts, regarded this team as a serious contender for a national championship. Maybe that's still in the cards, but it looks a lot less likely than it did a few months ago. So there you have it--why I don't feel OK about it. That said, I'm glad you feel differently.

[Duvall]

what does this mean? the ACC is nowhere near the quality it was 25 years ago.

But offers more quality opponents than it did 5 or 15 years ago.

[freshmanjs]

Because my expectations, like most folks', were very high for this team and they've not been met. It's hard to understand, but there it is. Most of us, like most of the experts, regarded this team as a serious contender for a national championship. Maybe that's still in the cards, but it looks a lot less likely than it did a few months ago. So there you have it--why I don't feel OK about it. That said, I'm glad you feel differently.

i just don't live in a world where 3 loss teams on jan 28 are out of contention. duke is 2-1 in top-10 road games. is that worse than you expected?

[azzefkram]

I'd also take a Grant step back 3 there. He had missed a few of those earlier (after hitting one in the first half).

With less than 25 seconds left the last place you want is to be is on the wrong end of a two possession game.

[jipops]

I understand. It's good that you feel OK about it.

Hmm, nice swipe.

I'm not ok with losing, but not surprised therefore not ready to label an entire season a disappointment.

[KandG]

No, you don't give up the layup. What you have just said goes against everything Coach K stands for. Tyus Jones has to recognize the rotation and cover the shooter.

I agree with this (and with your assessment of responsibility for how the play was defended), but in the modern game, there's a trend toward coaches saying to never help one pass away from a corner 3 point shooter.

Given who was shooting it, leaving him wasn't the absolute worst decision, but with a sophisticated offensive team like Notre Dame that practices moving the ball to get those looks (the 3 was clearly shot in rhythm), I would have preferred Matt not leave the shooter. Especially with the score.

[vrob90]

i just don't live in a world where 3 loss teams on jan 28 are out of contention. duke is 2-1 in top-10 road games. is that worse than you expected?

I didn't say they were out of contention, did I? Of course, it's worse than I expected, given the character of two of the losses. Worse than you expected too, I'm guessing.

[Billy Dat]

Vine of Tyus getting caught ball watching on the decisive 3
https://mtc.cdn.vine.co/r/videos/6ACAF0B00E1172428337319440384_32b529975dd.1.5.6768 642957388122132.mp4?versionId=_5aMYve_KrV8yeVNjKri Fcef4IJVuzfN

[CoSprings]

Preseason, I thought this group would lose five games heading into March Madness... We might lose 7 conference games at this rate. Hard to fathom with such talent.

[CoSprings]

Btw, we are currently in 7th place in the ACC. Really unbelievable.

[Kjeffrey]

Care to be a little more concrete about your "troubling things"? We lost our poise against NCST and Miami.

We did a lot of little things poorly tonight: careless turnovers in the 1st half, missed chippies all game long, not working hard to get the ball into Okafor when ND made their run, and missed FTs that led to us losing along with a miraculous shot by Grant after the near Tyus steal.

However, we did a lot of big things right tonight against a top 10 team at their house. I'm pissed that we lost but am overall trending upward about this team much moreso than after Miami. Unless we win against UVa, there is probably no way we get a #1 seed in the NCAA tourney so there is a CHANCE that we could lose in the first round I just think it's highly unlikely.

Agree with everything you wrote which is why I stated I will not overreact to the loss tonight. I noted poor defensive play and free throw shooting. In addition, the team has shown a lack of focus at times recently which has led to blown leads. I have also not seen the same mental or physical toughness they displayed in games such as the one against Wisconsin. This team is very talented but they are also very young. I think they are capable of going deep into the tournament, however, given their youth and recent issues I was simply pointing out that a first round loss is not impossible.

[dukebluesincebirth]

I hate losing games due to poor FT shooting. There's no excuse. ND made their FTs. We didn't. Game over. 4-3 in the ACC because we can't make FTs. Sucks. Hard.

[rsvman]

Another thing people are overlooking in the analysis of the Grant-to-Vasturia play is the shot fake before the pass and the element of surprise. Who didn't think Grant was going to try to score on that play? Players were moving toward the basket in an attempt to corral a rebound because it looked like Grant was shooting, and if he missed we really needed that board.

Sometimes a great play is just a great play. It doesn't have to be a missed defensive rotation.

[Duvall]

Preseason, I thought this group would lose five games heading into March Madness... We might lose 7 conference games at this rate. Hard to fathom with such talent.

Duke might lose 14 conference games. But they won't lose that many, and they won't lose 7 either.

[vrob90]

A good many comments seem to emphasize that this is a "young team" as if that should be a satisfying explanation. It is indeed a young team, but it's also undeniable that this team won't be getting any older, at least after the next few weeks. That, after all, is pretty much the plan. I'm not sure how much comfort to take from the young team theme. It seems to me they have the ability to beat any opponent in the country on any given night, but right now indications are that we won't have the success this year that a lot of us, as well as a lot of other folks, expected. I hope I'm wrong.

[tbyers11]

Preseason, I thought this group would lose five games heading into March Madness... We might lose 7 conference games at this rate. Hard to fathom with such talent.

Before the season, I also thought 5 losses was an optimistic but not crazy loss total at that point. But I don't see how that is still really that far from reality. If you had told me that we would have three losses at its point, I would have taken it. I would have had @Wisc and @Louisville as losses and figured we would have dropped another slightly unexpected loss in there (maybe Mich St, UConn, or an ACC road loss at NCST or ND).

Now the path to those three losses wasn't the same, we've lost 3 of 6, and one of our toughest games of the season is next. However, our ACC schedule difficulty was horribly front loaded in terms of both quality of opponent and road games. After UVA, KenPom gives a 20% chance of going undefeated until our last game of the regular season @UNC. His numbers actually give us a better chance of achieving that 9 game winning streak than it does of beating UVA (13%). Now there are some tough games in that stretch, notably ND at home and UNC at home, and we have also shown the ability to lay an egg (Miami). My main point is that our schedule gets a lot easier and that I think we are still a really good team with a pretty good chance to have five losses heading into the ACC tourney.

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

Okafor is a tremendous talent, and I think he's probably deserving of POY awards. But he's no help at the end of close games if the opponents can play Hack-A-Jah. And I would think Coach 1K would be above blaming the officials instead of looking in the mirror and seeing the deficiencies of the team.

Okafor's chances of being POY took a big hit tonight for several reasons. The large national attention to this game and the result, along with Grant's performance, and the disappointing record of Duke will likely have a big impact on voters. POY is not necessarily the most talented or NBA-ready player. Team results and the player's contribution to significant team success will/should affect the winner of POY awards. Duke must shape up as a team for Okafor to win over Grant, Kaminsky, etc.

I really don't care much about individual player awards. What matters to me is Duke's team success. I'd much prefer having Duke win NCAA championship than having Okafor or anyone else win individual awards. My guess is that Coach K and the Duke players would agree.

[mr. synellinden]

Before the season, I also thought 5 losses was an optimistic but not crazy loss total at that point. But I don't see how that is still really that far from reality. If you had told me that we would have three losses at its point, I would have taken it. I would have had @Wisc and @Louisville as losses and figured we would have dropped another slightly unexpected loss in there (maybe Mich St, UConn, or an ACC road loss at NCST or ND).

Now the path to those three losses wasn't the same, we've lost 3 of 6, and one of our toughest games of the season is next. However, our ACC schedule difficulty was horribly front loaded in terms of both quality of opponent and road games. After UVA, KenPom gives a 20% chance of going undefeated until our last game of the regular season @UNC. His numbers actually give us a better chance of achieving that 9 game winning streak than it does of beating UVA (13%). Now there are some tough games in that stretch, notably ND at home and UNC at home, and we have also shown the ability to lay an egg (Miami). My main point is that our schedule gets a lot easier and that I think we are still a really good team with a pretty good chance to have five losses heading into the ACC tourney.

Also worth pointing out is that if we were to beat UVA, we'd be 2 games behind in the loss column. UVA has a home and home with Louisville and has to play at UNC and at Syracuse. They also have to play at NCSU. UVA could have 3 or 4 more losses after the Duke game. It is not far-fetched to think that the regular season title is not lost already. But this weekend is a must win.

[Dukehky]

We have 3 losses. It's okay guys. As long as we don't lose games like Miami or State anymore, we'll be okay.

[Troublemaker]

A good many comments seem to emphasize that this is a "young team" as if that should be a satisfying explanation. It is indeed a young team, but it's also undeniable that this team won't be getting any older, at least after the next few weeks. That, after all, is pretty much the plan. I'm not sure how much comfort to take from the young team theme. It seems to me they have the ability to beat any opponent in the country on any given night, but right now indications are that we won't have the success this year that a lot of us, as well as a lot of other folks, expected. I hope I'm wrong.

You are. The team is very close to putting it all together. As for being young, the reason it's cited is because it's not far-fetched for a talented young team to encounter some struggles and then click later on in the season. Heck, last year's Kentucky team waited until March. I think Duke will beat them by a month. We're very close.

Duke should've won this game by 10 points based on how we played. We played "winning basketball" as Coach K said. It's a very different loss than the NCSU or Miami ones. I mean, I get it. We need to hit layups. We need to hit free throws. We need to not make unforced turnovers. We blew it. But you can definitely extract a silver lining from that.

[jipops]

Okafor's chances of being POY took a big hit tonight for several reasons. The large national attention to this game and the result, along with Grant's performance, and the disappointing record of Duke will likely have a big impact on voters. POY is not necessarily the most talented or NBA-ready player. Team results and the player's contribution to significant team success will/should affect the winner of POY awards. Duke must shape up as a team for Okafor to win over Grant, Kaminsky, etc.

I really don't care much about individual player awards. What matters to me is Duke's team success. I'd much prefer having Duke win NCAA championship than having Okafor or anyone else win individual awards. My guess is that Coach K and the Duke players would agree.

Finishing the regular season 28-3, 27-4, or 26-5 would be disappointing? Wow I hope to be disappointed every single season if that is the case.

[barjwr]

Okafor's chances of being POY took a big hit tonight for several reasons. The large national attention to this game and the result, along with Grant's performance, and the disappointing record of Duke will likely have a big impact on voters. POY is not necessarily the most talented or NBA-ready player. Team results and the player's contribution to significant team success will/should affect the winner of POY awards. Duke must shape up as a team for Okafor to win over Grant, Kaminsky, etc.

I really don't care much about individual player awards. What matters to me is Duke's team success. I'd much prefer having Duke win NCAA championship than having Okafor or anyone else win individual awards. My guess is that Coach K and the Duke players would agree.

I agree with everything you wrote. My optimistic assessment of Jah's talent and potential for individual honors was in response to another poster claiming my fandom had "turned" because I had the audacity to question his ability to make FTs.

Duke Championships have always been more important to me than player honors, as I imagine they are to most of our fans.

[barjwr]

(For the record, I meant Okafor's ability to make FTs, not the questioning poster's. Just noted the ambiguous modifier.)

[gurufrisbee]

If you look at this as a team starting three freshmen going on the road to a top ten team and nearly getting the win, it feels like a decent result.

If you look at this as a team with legitimate Final Four aspirations blowing a ten point second half lead by bricking a buttload of free throws and despite playing a very small team and having the best center in the nation they couldn't figure out how to not blow it, then it feels pretty disappointing.

[Dukehky]

I would just like to add, that while UVA scares the bejesus out of me, we match up far better with them than we do with ND on the defensive side of the ball. They are not a terribly offensively talented team, they are just rock solid, and their perimeter guys aren't drivers. If we play well, I think that we can put more points on the board than they do.

However, unfortunately, the days of never having a 2 game skid are over for Duke I think. The ACC is a real bball conference (Sorry SEC), and senior laden teams get pissed after losses and can take quick coaching because they have experience with the corrections. Young teams get sad after losses, so saying that we're coming off a loss and that we'll automatically be super fired up and ready to win is a pretty antiquated notion. But I remember it too, losing in like 2001, then knowing that Battier and Nate James would eat somebody's face if they didn't practice great and then beat the hell out of the next opponent.

[g-money]

With three freshmen in the starting lineup, it's not the end of the world to lose a big road game.

I think the key question is, how much can we improve between now and the end of the season? To have a realistic shot at a title, Coach K is going to have to work the young guys like it's 1985.

As we saw tonight, FT shooting by the bigs is probably our biggest potential achilles heel. Unfortunately, it is also a difficult thing to improve on in a short amount of time.

On the bright side, I was pretty encouraged by Winslow's game this evening. He and Matt Jones would appear to be two of our better defenders, so if we can get some offensive consistency out of at least one of them I think we'll be better off overall.

I'm looking forward to a solid effort against Virginia this weekend. I think we will bounce back and get a W.

[Kedsy]

We shot an incredibly poor 47% on layups/dunks. We shot 50% from the line. And still the #8 team in the country, playing at home, needed a miracle shot in the last minute to beat us after having the "Luck of the Irish" going all night. Sure, I'd rather have won the game, but considering everything it's hard for me to get too worked up over this loss.


Healthy Winslow masks a lot of things on defense

I agree. Whether it's because of nagging injury or freshman wall, Justise isn't the defensive eraser he was earlier in the season.


Missed layups, giving up critical offensive rebounds and 2nd chance points, missed FTs... and some head scratching offense after building a 10 point lead.

Notre Dame only got 6 offensive rebounds in the entire game, meaning we gathered an outstanding 80.6% of available defensive rebounds. Only one of Notre Dame's offensive rebounds was in the last 9 minutes of the game (and that was at 7:32, with Duke up 2 points). It's really hard to blame our defensive rebounding for this one.


The goal now is to make the tourney and hope that they can make a run.

Do you think there's a realistic chance that Duke won't make the tournament?


What happened to stall ball when you need it?

How about Notre Dame going into stall ball with a 1 point lead and making two consecutive shots with one second left on the shot clock? Unbelievable.


On the other hand, Amile didn't seem to have much impact on the game.

Amile only played 17 minutes due to matchup issues. And he had 4 points and 5 rebounds -- that's fairly close to his usual impact per minute.


Okafor's chances of being POY took a big hit tonight for several reasons.

Jahlil went for 22 and 17, with 3 assists. Hard for me to imagine that would decrease his POY chances.


we either improve our ft shooting, or plan on an early upset in march.

Every thread needs an "if we don't get better at [x] we're doomed to an early exit in March" comment. Thanks for getting it out of the way.

[Dukehky]

With three freshmen in the starting lineup, it's not the end of the world to lose a big road game.

I think the key question is, how much can we improve between now and the end of the season? To have a realistic shot at a title, Coach K is going to have to work the young guys like it's 1985.

As we saw tonight, FT shooting by the bigs is probably our biggest potential achilles heel. Unfortunately, it is also a difficult thing to improve on in a short amount of time.

On the bright side, I was pretty encouraged by Winslow's game this evening. He and Matt Jones would appear to be two of our better defenders, so if we can get some offensive consistency out of at least one of them I think we'll be better off overall.

I'm looking forward to a solid effort against Virginia this weekend. I think we will bounce back and get a W.

Regarding Winslow, I was glad to see him shoot well, but his explosiveness in the paint was still noticeably absent. When he gets that elite athleticism back (and we'll know when it happens) then we are going to be just fine.

[Kedsy]

However, unfortunately, the days of never having a 2 game skid are over for Duke I think.

For what it's worth, that idea is probably largely a myth. Duke lost 2 or more games in a row in 10 of the past 13 seasons (2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2012, 2014, 2015). And if you like nostalgia, Duke also lost 2 or more in a row in 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, and 1990, and we made the Final Four in four of those five seasons.

[Troublemaker]

FYI

Even though most of us thought differently, both Coach K and Quinn said that we shouldn't have left the corner on the Vasturia 3. So, while what Matt did was understandable, it was still a mistake because Duke players are taught to stick with the shooter in that situation.

[UrinalCake]

A back-and-forth game that came down to execution in the final few possessions. Oak missed free throws and missed a layup. ND hit their free throws, hit a crazy desperation heave, and hit an open 3 off a nice feed. That's the difference in the game.

It's hard for me to get too bent out of shape about this loss. When you play enough top-10 teams on the road, you're eventually going to lose one. But it is VERY apparent how much the NC State loss and especially the Miami loss at home hurt us in the ACC standings.

[Duke 81 LA]

Why does every single team we play have a guard absolutely go off against us? Unless we play the zone that is...Either adjustments have not been made (coaching staff) or this team just doesn't have it defensively. Oh how I wish for the days when we actually defended, even when we didnt have a big man in the middle (a la the year Singler played the 5).

Because, Quinn Cook can't defend -- it's not just a lack of lateral quickness, it's he is constantly stepping forward and getting beat once he steps forward. I just don't understand why he is chosen to be the on ball defender. The coaching staff must think very little of our other options. Especially if we are defending with five guards, wouldn't Winslow or Sulaimon be better choices?

I feel for Cook -- he is stuck in that spot and ill equipped. He's been such a horse on offense, it is just too bad we don't seem to have better options to guard the ball.

[mr. synellinden]

Rasheed's shot selection in this game and during most of the season has been awful. I don't know if he's playing to scouts or what. But he is not making good decisions with the ball both in terms of shooting and forcing drives/passes. 1-6 tonight.

[Duke 81 LA]

Very disappointing. Does this team practice free throw shooting? Okafor, Jefferson kill us from the line. They each need to be made to shoot and make 500/night before going to bed. We should've won this game.

It's a shame -- the script to beat Duke isn't that complicated -- play aggressively vs. Okafor and Jefferson (and Plumlee if he is in) and if you foul them, so be it.

It's weird in that Okafor's shot doesn't look that bad from the side camera -- but if you watch him when they show him shooting FTs from under the basket, he shoots from one side at an angle.

Such a winnable game!

[Duke 81 LA]

When it was a 10 point game, you figured ND would come back. But the key was when Duke got in the bonus early, and proceeded to blow nearly every FT going into the double bonus. In a tight road game against an intelligent opponent, that's fatal.

Even after ND tied it, Duke still had a chance to pull it out with sounder play, but overall the last 10 minutes featured largely impotent offense and bad breaks all the way around.

Don't have much hope for Saturday, other than a good effort and a sign of greater composure in situations like this versus good teams (i.e. not St. John's).

A good point -- but it was even worse than that -- we got to the bonus very quickly in the second half and then didn't get to the line for any "easy" FTs by our guards for five minutes (I think Tyus had a pair and that was it). The flow from the offense left Duke at the 9 minute mark. That's really on the guards for not creating anything or getting to the paint.

[Duke 81 LA]

Rasheed's shot selection in this game and during most of the season has been awful. I don't know if he's playing to scouts or what. But he is not making good decisions with the ball both in terms of shooting and forcing drives/passes. 1-6 tonight.

His +/- rating has to be just awful in ACC play

[Kedsy]

It's a shame -- the script to beat Duke isn't that complicated -- play aggressively vs. Okafor and Jefferson (and Plumlee if he is in) and if you foul them, so be it.

You may be right, but since Jahlil played 36 minutes and took 18 shots but only went to the line on 4 occasions (7 shots total; and two of the four occasions were not shooting fouls), I'm not sure Notre Dame was using that script.

[Duke 81 LA]

We shot an incredibly poor 47% on layups/dunks. We shot 50% from the line. And still the #8 team in the country, playing at home, needed a miracle shot in the last minute to beat us after having the "Luck of the Irish" going all night. Sure, I'd rather have won the game, but considering everything it's hard for me to get too worked up over this loss.



I agree. Whether it's because of nagging injury or freshman wall, Justise isn't the defensive eraser he was earlier in the season.



Notre Dame only got 6 offensive rebounds in the entire game, meaning we gathered an outstanding 80.6% of available defensive rebounds. Only one of Notre Dame's offensive rebounds was in the last 9 minutes of the game (and that was at 7:32, with Duke up 2 points). It's really hard to blame our defensive rebounding for this one.



Do you think there's a realistic chance that Duke won't make the tournament?



How about Notre Dame going into stall ball with a 1 point lead and making two consecutive shots with one second left on the shot clock? Unbelievable.



Amile only played 17 minutes due to matchup issues. And he had 4 points and 5 rebounds -- that's fairly close to his usual impact per minute.



Jahlil went for 22 and 17, with 3 assists. Hard for me to imagine that would decrease his POY chances.



Every thread needs an "if we don't get better at [x] we're doomed to an early exit in March" comment. Thanks for getting it out of the way.

Lots of great points here. I am surprised that in nine pages of discussion of the game, no one has really wondered "aloud" why Jahlil was on the bench for most of the last 1:47 of the game. I think that Brey took control of the game by playing the five guards and us playing Winslow and four guards. We let ND take that advantage. Okafor (rightly) is the leading contender for National POY -- and he is sitting the last two minutes of a one point game? C'mon!!

[Wander]

I was with all of you on being concerned after NC State and Miami, but this was a perfect example of a game not to get too worried about. A close game against a top 10 team in a true road game where we missed a million layups, which has not been a concern in any other game that I remember. UVA is a tough game, but Duvall is right - our conference schedule is absurdly frontloaded. It's far from unrealistic that we go on a long winning streak after Saturday, maybe even the entire regular season after Saturday.

[Kedsy]

It's far from unrealistic that we go on a long winning streak after Saturday, maybe even the entire regular season after Saturday.

I agree with this, provided our young players' confidence hasn't suffered too much from the losses.

[brevity]

We've lost to 15 seeds 2 of the past 3 years with OADs leading the way.


Mercer was a 15 seed? How is that possible?

It's not. Mercer was a 14 seed.

As far as losses go, this one was pretty encouraging. I liked some of what I saw. It looked as though Duke handled the defensive boards, denying Notre Dame second chance points. (Unfortunately, the Irish didn't need too many second chances.)

I was less enamored of Sulaimon's play at the end of each half. His poise in the Carrier Dome last year earns him the benefit of the doubt, but he may need to revisit endgame scenarios.

Lots of negativity, short fuses, and chippy comments this week, even before tonight. I can't tell the rest of you how to feel, but I find it less stressful to take the long view. The highs are less high, the lows less low, the middles not as creamy.

More importantly, I have a personal policy of not posting twice in the same thread unless I need to provide clarification, or if the focus of the thread has changed.

But no back and forth. Ever.

[KandG]

FYI

Even though most of us thought differently, both Coach K and Quinn said that we shouldn't have left the corner on the Vasturia 3. So, while what Matt did was understandable, it was still a mistake because Duke players are taught to stick with the shooter in that situation.

Whew, that's a relief to hear. I thought "K can't be that stuck on the old school" to preach leaving corner 3 shooters open in order to prevent a layup. It's a different time, and offenses (including Duke's) generate those looks regularly. Can't be helping one pass away to give up that shot.

[SoCalDukeFan]

This is a young team that is getting older every week.

This is a rough stretch of the schedule. I think we lose on Saturday but I will take it in stride.

K and staff are trying new things - zone, twin towers.

I like K starting to work the officials on the non calls on fouls on Jah. They have taken away the contact on the outside( which hurts Duke's traditional D) but left mugging go on on the inside. Maybe nothing will change, maybe it will.

I assume someone on the staff can work on Jah's free throw shooting.

I thought last year and in the Austin Rivers year there were some issues with the chemistry of the team. I don't have that sense this year.

Looking forward to the season after this week end.

SoCal

[#1Duke]

10-18 for 22 points not good enough? lol

He wasn't the only one missing easy shots. It happens.

I was hoping for 30 points tonight since he was being guarded by a much smaller defender.

[Edouble]

Lots of great points here. I am surprised that in nine pages of discussion of the game, no one has really wondered "aloud" why Jahlil was on the bench for most of the last 1:47 of the game. I think that Brey took control of the game by playing the five guards and us playing Winslow and four guards. We let ND take that advantage. Okafor (rightly) is the leading contender for National POY -- and he is sitting the last two minutes of a one point game? C'mon!!

I commented on it in Post #17 on the first page of the thread.

[KandG]

Just reading the CBS recap of tonight's college games and realized that the last 3 opponents to give Duke major fits, win or lose (NC State, Miami, St. John's) all had horrific losses today - the recapper even listed the horrible losses one after the other. Not quite sure what to make of that.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/25004008/night-court-notre-dame-topples-duke-rhode-island-wins-at-buzzer

[Karl Beem]

At least Justise seems to be back. He's needed.

[dukelifer]

We shot an incredibly poor 47% on layups/dunks. We shot 50% from the line. And still the #8 team in the country, playing at home, needed a miracle shot in the last minute to beat us after having the "Luck of the Irish" going all night. Sure, I'd rather have won the game, but considering everything it's hard for me to get too worked up over this loss.



I agree. Whether it's because of nagging injury or freshman wall, Justise isn't the defensive eraser he was earlier in the season.



Notre Dame only got 6 offensive rebounds in the entire game, meaning we gathered an outstanding 80.6% of available defensive rebounds. Only one of Notre Dame's offensive rebounds was in the last 9 minutes of the game (and that was at 7:32, with Duke up 2 points). It's really hard to blame our defensive rebounding for this one.



Do you think there's a realistic chance that Duke won't make the tournament?



How about Notre Dame going into stall ball with a 1 point lead and making two consecutive shots with one second left on the shot clock? Unbelievable.



Amile only played 17 minutes due to matchup issues. And he had 4 points and 5 rebounds -- that's fairly close to his usual impact per minute.



Jahlil went for 22 and 17, with 3 assists. Hard for me to imagine that would decrease his POY chances.



Every thread needs an "if we don't get better at [x] we're doomed to an early exit in March" comment. Thanks for getting it out of the way.

I think Duke will make the tourney but the regular season is not possible after this loss - so that goal is out - nor do I think they are built to win the ACC tourney- but I suppose that goal is still on the table- so the only realistic goal left is to make the NCAA tourney - probably as a 2-5 seed - depending on when they right the defensive ship- and hope for a magical run- i.e. play better at the end of the season. Up and down Duke teams have done that before - so we shall see.

[jv001]

Agreed for the most part. I mean, that logic applies to guys like Angel Rodriguez.

But Grant is a solid 6'5" guard that is NBA material. He was going to score.

A lot of those assists were on passes after he got caught in the air. If you stick to your man, he has no where to go and turns it over.

This is the reason, Matt should not have left the man wide open in the corner. We could survive a 2 pointer if Grant hits the man inside. But that would have been a tough shot because there were two other guys close by. I'd rather he had stayed with the 3 point shooter. GoDuke!

[jv001]

In Matt's defense on that play, Tyus got caught half-helping on Grant and left his man cutting to the basket. Matt went to help on Tyus's man, which left Matt's man open. The freshmen can lose their focus on defense. If they want a championship, they need to win it as much at that end as on offense.

Could be 4 games out of 1st if we lose on the road to Virginia. On paper a more winnable stretch after that. Hopefully, we can pull the upset this weekend. The missed free throws and layup a cost us this one.

I'll have to look at this a 3rd time, I thought Tyus was guarding Grant on that play. GoDuke!

[jv001]

I think everyone needs to temper their expectations for this team. First off, no shame in losing on the road to a top 10 team. The truth is that even though it felt like we outplayed them - not scoring more than 10 points in the last 8 minutes against that defense and that horrendous FT shooting means that we didn't.

I still have yet to see this team play angry or play match the toughness of their opponents. We are very talented but lack the mentality and killer instinct of an elite team. I want to see someone take their defensive assignment personally. Regardless of what K does I'm not sure this team is going completely change it's personality. It feels like we have to just have a hot shooting night to win games and we are losing anytime it is a grind it out ugly game. Good teams win those games!!!

I hope I'm wrong but looking at out schedule I see an 11-7 ACC record looming. We lose this Saturday and this team is going to have to do some soul searching and start taking these losses personally.

I see 9-2 in our last 11 games, but we still need to improve our defense, even though we played well enough on defense to win this game. Our offense let us down. GoDuke!

[Duke76]

A good point -- but it was even worse than that -- we got to the bonus very quickly in the second half and then didn't get to the line for any "easy" FTs by our guards for five minutes (I think Tyus had a pair and that was it). The flow from the offense left Duke at the 9 minute mark. That's really on the guards for not creating anything or getting to the paint.

it was when winslow picked up a 3rd foul and rasheed took his place....offense completely went off the tracks after that.

[jv001]

Yeah it was definitely Tyus Jones, who was standing aimlessly guarding no one. Also, gotta ding Tyus for bailing on the previous bucket after he half-stripped Grant. You can't allow Grant to get around you and get the ball. Jones seemed to start to break upcourt a step rather than securing the ball. Freshman mistakes.

I agree about Tyus starting up court too quickly, but I've also seen Quinn do the same thing. Seems they are anxious to get a fast break started before the defensive stand has been completed. GoDuke!

[jv001]

I still think the tradeoff of playing Tyus-Matt/Sheed and Quinn-Matt/Sheed would be worth it for the step up and defense. Neither Matt or Sheed are incapable on offense like say a Lance Thomas. And they don't need to be bigger AND faster (though I'd say Sheed is definitely quicker than Tyus/Quinn), the two guards up top need to be complementary on defense like Scheyer and Smith were. Scheyer being a slower but bigger and smarter defender and Smith being a smaller but faster more athletic defender.

Quinn and Tyus are both small and relatively slower. It's really hard to win with TWO guys that are smaller AND slower.

Who comes out of the starting lineup? Quinn is the senior co-captain and Tyus is the key to our offense running smoothly. I guess some would say Quinn would be best suited for 6th man, but I don't think so. I would keep both in the starting lineup and give both rest with Rasheed and Matt. In other words, just like Coach K is doing it now. We just need to get better at guarding the ball. A good effort from Jahlil in helping cover the middle with a few blocks would help. GoDuke!

[CDu]

Lots of great points here. I am surprised that in nine pages of discussion of the game, no one has really wondered "aloud" why Jahlil was on the bench for most of the last 1:47 of the game. I think that Brey took control of the game by playing the five guards and us playing Winslow and four guards. We let ND take that advantage. Okafor (rightly) is the leading contender for National POY -- and he is sitting the last two minutes of a one point game? C'mon!!

The reason is that Okafor was no longer helping the team. He missed multiple front end of 1-and-1s, wasn't scoring in the post, and was a liability on defense. So since he wasn't effective, Coach K went with smaller guys who could shoot better. Unfortunately, the tactic didn't work.

I agree with those who say that ultimately this loss doesn't mean too much. It makes our chances at the top ACC seed unlikely, but that is about it. The only thing I don't like about it (besides losing) is how little poise we played with down the stretch. It was in many ways the opposite of the St. John's game.

One can certainly take positives in that we could have had a double-digit halftime lead, and could have been up closer to 20 at one point had some of our layups fallen. But I think it can't be overlooked how poorly we played later in the game (basically as soon as we got that double-digit lead) with so little poise. If we play like we did in building a 65-55 lead the rest of the way? Great things to come. If we show the lack of poise in key moments again? Bad news.

[jv001]

Vine of Tyus getting caught ball watching on the decisive 3
https://mtc.cdn.vine.co/r/videos/6ACAF0B00E1172428337319440384_32b529975dd.1.5.6768 642957388122132.mp4?versionId=_5aMYve_KrV8yeVNjKri Fcef4IJVuzfN

Thanks for the link, I got this play confused with the play where Tyus knocked the ball out of Grant's hands and then headed back down court too quickly. GoDuke!

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

My take on the game now that I have had a night to think about it. It was a really well played game on both sides, except for the last 7 minutes on our side. Also for the ACC as a whole, I think last night showed how fun the ACC tourney is going to be this season. I can't wait til march its going to be awesome to watch every single game.

Also we still have a shot at a number one seed in the NCAA tournament, we just gotta win out or lose maybe 1 more game and win the ACC tourney. Its that simple right?

[tbyers11]

I agree with this, provided our young players' confidence hasn't suffered too much from the losses.

This is primarily what I was worried about after the NCST and Miami losses. Would our confidence be shaken badly? We still had lots of talent and if we could find a defensive scheme to keep our guards lack of lateral quickness and, most importantly, Okafor's defensive shortcomings from hurting us so badly I thought we would be OK.

Winning at Louisville and coming back to win against St John's assuaged most of my fears about lack of confidence.

I think the tonight's loss won't really shake our confidence apart from maybe Jahlil's FT confidence. I think the team will view this as an "Ademola Okaluja game" where we beat ourselves.

[Chicago 1995]

I think everyone needs to temper their expectations for this team. First off, no shame in losing on the road to a top 10 team. The truth is that even though it felt like we outplayed them - not scoring more than 10 points in the last 8 minutes against that defense and that horrendous FT shooting means that we didn't.

I still have yet to see this team play angry or play match the toughness of their opponents. We are very talented but lack the mentality and killer instinct of an elite team. I want to see someone take their defensive assignment personally. Regardless of what K does I'm not sure this team is going completely change it's personality. It feels like we have to just have a hot shooting night to win games and we are losing anytime it is a grind it out ugly game. Good teams win those games!!!

I hope I'm wrong but looking at out schedule I see an 11-7 ACC record looming. We lose this Saturday and this team is going to have to do some soul searching and start taking these losses personally.

I'm worried about this team and the coaching of it as much as anybody, but we played angry and matched the toughness of St. John down the stretch. I don't know how you say otherwise.

It's easy to write last night off thanks to all the layups that spun out and the bad FTS shooting. The defense was ok, I guess, although I thought we were lucky Connaughton didn't shoot better as that we lost him way too much, and ultimately, we gave up a lot of pretty easy shots and easy penetration. I am troubled by how stagnant the offense got. Built a big lead and we shut it down. I didn't feel like it was a product of forcing it to Jah either. We just quit moving and attacking on the perimeter. We built the lead attacking the rim through both Jah and movement and dribble penetration from the guards. ND went zone a couple of possessions, and the ugly statue-like offense we've fallen into a LOT the last season and a half was back. And we have up a lead again in no small part because of it.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Many of us have stated that we've got to do better on free throws...here's the stats from our starters last night. It looks like this doesn't apply to everyone.
Amile -- 0-3
Jah -- 2 -7
Justise -- 2-2 (perfect)
Tyus -- 3-3 (perfect)
Quinn -- 2-2 (perfect)
(The bench only accounted for 2 misses.)
Summary? Dear Mr. Okafor and Mr. Jefferson. You are going to get fouled, A LOT. Please practice you free throws. A LOT.

[weezie]

Planning on wandering around, half-heartedly looking at things to do while contemplating a very long Saturday waiting for either a classic Duke win or a miserable beat down.

Here in VA, the knives are out....

[jv001]

Not much to add to the 10 page thread, but here are some of my observations:
1) We were beaten by a very good offensive team and we should not be ashamed. We played before a great fan base that was in it most of the game. The Irish are well coached and can really shoot the ball.
2) We were beaten by a bad defensive team and we should be a little ashamed that our offense didn't take advantage of the bad defense.
3) The FT shooting by Jahlil and Amile was horrific. They must do better and I can't blame Coach K for having both on the bench under 2 minute mark.
4) We have way too much standing on defense. We don't seem to be in a good defensive stance and ready to make a play. Tyus and Jahlil are the two worst offenders. They are freshman, but after 20 games, they should be better on defense.
5) Normally I would say our offense should always start with the ball going down to Jahlil, but in the 2nd half, our guards showed a great ability to get into the lane and cause the Irish some trouble(back to their bad defense). We went away from that and we lost our poise. We really didn't play smart after getting that 10 point lead and this led to our not getting many field goals down the stretch. I attribute this to Duke and not the Irish's defense.
6) Very important. Justise seems to be getting healthy. He played a very good game. However he's still not 100% but he sure did hit some big 3s.
7) We still have trouble guarding the ball. Tyus and Quinn are not very good at this part of the game. Rasheed and Matt are a little better but we suffer on offense when they spell our starting guards. Rasheed still get's out of control and makes some bad decisions.
8) Our schedule gets kinder after the VA game and look for the team to go 9-2 or 10-1 if they play up to their potential.
That won't win the conference but with some of the other teams facing the tough part of their schedules, we should make up some ground.
It was not a horrible thing to lose to ND on their home court. They are a good team and have a good coach. Grant is probably the best all around player in the ACC. Good offense and good defense. He is a senior and that makes a difference. Now let's play our best game of the year against the top team in the conference. GoDuke!

[mgtr]

I don't know whether this has been mentioned, but I note that both teams had four players who contributed the bulk of their scoring. Duke's other four players contributed 9 points, while ND's other four contributed 17. So, we need to get more out of the bench, or play the starters even more. I am optimistic that as Winslow continues to recover, he can play a role on our team somewhat similar to Jerian Grant (ie, breaking down the defense and getting shots or assists). If he contributed half what Grant does, it would be a big help.

[jv001]

Matt is improving his offensive numbers. Here are stats showing such.
2014 FG%= .294, 2014 3%= .143, FT%= .561%.
2015 FG%= .386, 2015 3%= .372, FT%= .700%.
The ACC numbers are pretty close to season numbers, except his FG% in ACC play is .290%. His 3% is .375%. So he's actually shooting better from 3 than inside the 3.
I would love to see Matt develop a jump shot instead of his slow release push shot. You never see Matt take a mid-range jump shot, because he doesn't have a jump shot. I think he could really improve his play with jumper. When Matt goes to the lane, he usually tries a layup and a lot of the time it get's blocked. We need Matt in the rotation for his defense but how much better would the team be if he was a plus offensive player. Matt improved this season, but he has a higher ceiling than what he's shown so far. I don't expect much improvement this season, but his Junior season should be very good one. GoDuke!

[Highlander]

Many of us have stated that we've got to do better on free throws...here's the stats from our starters last night. It looks like this doesn't apply to everyone.
Amile -- 0-3
Jah -- 2 -7
Justise -- 2-2 (perfect)
Tyus -- 3-3 (perfect)
Quinn -- 2-2 (perfect)
(The bench only accounted for 2 misses.)
Summary? Dear Mr. Okafor and Mr. Jefferson. You are going to get fouled, A LOT. Please practice you free throws. A LOT.

Agreed. Our bigs (Jahlil, Marshall, and Amile) went a combined 2-11 from the line for 18%. That needs to improve to at least 50% or those guys are going to be a huge liability in close games. In addition, we could start seeing more of the Poke-an-Oak (aka hack-a-Shaq) as a viable way to defend Jahlil.

Combine our poor FT shooting and non-existent bench scoring with the couple of circus shots that Grant was getting to fall, and it's not hard to see why we lost. It's sad because I thought we looked like the better team for 35 minutes or so. The only reason it was close is that we couldn't get our easy shots and FT's to stay down while they were getting some tough ones to drop.

I did like the fact that our defense, while not great especially in the last 5 minutes, was much improved over NCSU and Miami. We dominated the glass and didn't seem to get beat as often as normal. I also liked that Winslow seemed to get his shooting touch back, and that Jones was (for a time) simply shredding his man off the dribble. And Okafor was absolutely unstoppable in 1x1 play.

I went back and watched the sequence where our 10 point lead evaporated. Aside from an unforced turnover by Winslow (where he passed it into the 14th row), we got decent looks at shots that just didn't go down. My quibble was that three of those shots were 3pointers (2 by Cook, 1 by Matt Jones), and all 3 of them missed with ND getting the rebound each time. Sheed also missed a short jumper from the side that came after a drive. Meanwhile, ND got two 3 point possessions and a layup out of 5 possessions while we went 0-5.

For a team that relies on the 3 ball as much as we do, we are not a great 3 point shooting team. We're essentially just average in conference games (http://www.theacc.com/page/team-stats-m-baskbl-stat-crew). So far we're 7th out of 15 teams at 36%. Three of the teams ahead of us in this stat category are Miami, NC State, and Notre Dame. Oh, and UVA is #1 in the conference in 3pt shooting percentage at just over 40%. So we have that to look forward to.

Lastly, I understand Coach K complained a bit about the discrepancy in fouls in the paint vs. fouls on the perimeter. I did see that there wasn't much arm contact required to get whistled for a foul on the perimeter (just ask Matt Jones), while bodying up on our bigs was largely uncalled. I understand his point, but given how bad we were from the foul line I'm not sure putting Okafor, Plumlee, and Jefferson on the line more often was the answer in this one.

I think if we can win at UVA, things will be looking up. We'll have played 4 road games against the top 10 this year, and possibly 5 if UNC continues their winning ways. Going better than .500 in those games would be a great confidence boost.

[jv001]

I don't know whether this has been mentioned, but I note that both teams had four players who contributed the bulk of their scoring. Duke's other four players contributed 9 points, while ND's other four contributed 17. So, we need to get more out of the bench, or play the starters even more. I am optimistic that as Winslow continues to recover, he can play a role on our team somewhat similar to Jerian Grant (ie, breaking down the defense and getting shots or assists). If he contributed half what Grant does, it would be a big help.

If Rasheed doesn't get points off the bench, it's going to be hard to get them from MPIII and Matt. We're using an 8 man rotation. I don't think we should add minutes to Jahlil, he needs a breather more than Quinn and Tyus. We are what we are and will probably have to live with it. We just need to play smarter than we did last night. If we get the good Rasheed off the bench, we should be fine, but if we get the bad Rasheed, we're in trouble. We need Rasheed at his best and not the guy that put up 1/6 from the field and 0/3 from three, 3 pts, 1 rebound, 0 assist in 12 minutes. MPII and Matt are needed for defense and rebounds. I don't expect much from the offensively. GoDuke!

[Channing]

I hate losing ... BUT, I was not as torn up after this game as I was after the NCSU and UM games. I thought the team played really well. We had a couple layups spin out and our team FT% was awful. Grant hit some really tough (circus?) shots down the stretch, and we just couldn't match the intensity all the way to the end. Yet, we were still in it at the end against a really good team.

When ND started their comeback it seemed like we got really rushed on offense and had a bunch of really bad looks. Matt Jones hit the side of the backboard on a 3 (I think), Winslow threw a skip pass into the third row, and Rasheed took a fade away mid range jumper from the base line. We let them hit a bunch of shots, get back into it, and we had a ball game.

to me, the biggest turning play in the game was when we got a 5 on 3 break, Quinn took a corner 3 and missed, and they got a run out. That was a huge swing. I guess it was a good shot by Quinn who had been having a great night, and we had numbers and size for the rebound, but perhaps a quick inside pass there gets an easier look.

[jv001]

I hate losing ... BUT, I was not as torn up after this game as I was after the NCSU and UM games. I thought the team played really well. We had a couple layups spin out and our team FT% was awful. Grant hit some really tough (circus?) shots down the stretch, and we just couldn't match the intensity all the way to the end. Yet, we were still in it at the end against a really good team.

When ND started their comeback it seemed like we got really rushed on offense and had a bunch of really bad looks. Matt Jones hit the side of the backboard on a 3 (I think), Winslow threw a skip pass into the third row, and Rasheed took a fade away mid range jumper from the base line. We let them hit a bunch of shots, get back into it, and we had a ball game.

to me, the biggest turning play in the game was when we got a 5 on 3 break, Quinn took a corner 3 and missed, and they got a run out. That was a huge swing. I guess it was a good shot by Quinn who had been having a great night, and we had numbers and size for the rebound, but perhaps a quick inside pass there gets an easier look.

I think it was BillyDat that said we lost our composure with the 10 point lead and I agree. The Irish then got confidence and made some good shots. I felt the same way about Quinn's corner shot. I thought we could've gotten a better shot on that fast break opportunity. GoDuke!

[dyedwab]

Lastly, I understand Coach K complained a bit about the discrepancy in fouls in the paint vs. fouls on the perimeter. I did see that there wasn't much arm contact required to get whistled for a foul on the perimeter (just ask Matt Jones), while bodying up on our bigs was largely uncalled. I understand his point, but given how bad we were from the foul line I'm not sure putting Okafor, Plumlee, and Jefferson on the line more often was the answer in this one.



Yes, getting free throws from a group of guys shooting 18% from the line in a game wouldn't have helped. But what would have helped was forcing players to the bench (UND had one legit big) which then forces odd defensive alignments, which then makes it easier to operate offensively.

Because this has happened to us A LOT over the passed few years. It's especially important with a defensively challenges team, who need to maximize having it best players on the floor as much as possible....

[rtnorthrup]

at the 10:59 mark in the second half, Okafor makes a layup to put us up 65-55. We go over 5 minutes of game time before Okafor gets another shot, and even worse, we quit running our offense through him. Notre Dame didn't change up their defense at all. We just stopped looking at him.

Over those six minutes were the following offensive possessions: Quinn misses a 3; Winslow turnover; Matt Jones misses a 3; Quinn misses a 3; Rasheed misses a jumper; Quinn misses a jumper; and Tyus misses a 3.

That's how you lose a 10 point lead on the road. We slowed the tempo way down, we wasted time dribbling up top and did not get into our offense quickly enough and ended up settling for bad shots. You can say what you want about Okafor missing free throws in the last 5 minutes, but it was a travesty during that stretch that we stopped running our offense through him. In fact, I don't even remember a single post up during that time. This is made even worse since we have two point guards on the floor who should have enough basketball IQ that with a 10 point lead and a mismatch in the paint you have to keep feeding it down low. And Jah needs to be more demanding of the ball in those situations.

The other thing that really lights me up is watching Quinn Cook hang his head after a miss shot or bad play instead of busting his butt to get back on defense. No high school player should ever do that, much less a senior at Duke.

In the grand scheme, I don't think this loss means as much as the ones to NC State and Miami. This loss didn't expose any flaws in our team (unless you think free throw shooting will be a season long flaw). Notre Dame played well and made shots at opportune times. I think we lost our composure in the second half and gave ND just the opening they needed to take advantage of. The frustrating thing is if we handle our business I think we could have come away with a double digit road win over a top 10 team.

Tough turnaround on the weekend.

[Monmouth77]

I thought the offensive swoon last night after we pulled ahead by 10 was a combination of bad bounces (layups that rimmed out) and bad decisions (Winslow's airmailed pass) but that all of that stemmed from a lack of offensive aggression. I would have loved to see Tyus continue to penetrate the defense; he was absolutely shredding ND and getting to the line throughout our big run. Then it stopped. Some of that was Brey switching defenses but we got flat footed and started passing the ball aimlessly around the perimeter (as opposed to purposefully to move the defense and get open looks). That seems like a bad habit we fall into a lot. It's mitigated by getting the ball into the post, but then Jah missed a few chippies and his FTs. Hopefully that will improve.

[gus]

to me, the biggest turning play in the game was when we got a 5 on 3 break, Quinn took a corner 3 and missed, and they got a run out. That was a huge swing. I guess it was a good shot by Quinn who had been having a great night, and we had numbers and size for the rebound, but perhaps a quick inside pass there gets an easier look.

Duke shooters, for at least a decade and a half now, routinely take the three in that situation. A spot up three, unguarded, with rebounders in position is a very high probability play. We got a little unlucky the the rebound went as long as it did, by I suspect Coach K agreed with Quin's decision.

[MCFinARL]

Lastly, I understand Coach K complained a bit about the discrepancy in fouls in the paint vs. fouls on the perimeter. I did see that there wasn't much arm contact required to get whistled for a foul on the perimeter (just ask Matt Jones), while bodying up on our bigs was largely uncalled. I understand his point, but given how bad we were from the foul line I'm not sure putting Okafor, Plumlee, and Jefferson on the line more often was the answer in this one.

I think if we can win at UVA, things will be looking up. We'll have played 4 road games against the top 10 this year, and possibly 5 if UNC continues their winning ways. Going better than .500 in those games would be a great confidence boost.

This is something that happened a lot last season, I think. The trend has been to allow a lot of contact under the basket as long as it involves the body and not the arms, but much less away from the basket. Duke may need to adapt better to the way games are being called.

Certainly that's something that will likely be a major concern playing UVA, which last year showed an uncanny ability to defend with the body without fouling while drawing numerous fouls from Duke. In the first game, which Duke won by a small margin at Cameron, UVA committed 17 fouls to Duke's 23; in the ACC tournament game the margin was a whopping 15 to 29.

I certainly agree that if we can win at UVA, things will be looking up. But that is looking like a very big if right now.

[devil84]

Lastly, I understand Coach K complained a bit about the discrepancy in fouls in the paint vs. fouls on the perimeter. I did see that there wasn't much arm contact required to get whistled for a foul on the perimeter (just ask Matt Jones), while bodying up on our bigs was largely uncalled. I understand his point, but given how bad we were from the foul line I'm not sure putting Okafor, Plumlee, and Jefferson on the line more often was the answer in this one.

Perhaps it's not about getting our guys to the line so much as it's about stopping that kind of contact and/or getting the opponent's star(s) in foul trouble. Matt Jones accumulated a ton of touch fouls and had to change his game to stay in it. Seems only fair to ask the same of the opponents mugging our bigs.

[dyedwab beat me to it!]

[CDu]

Duke shooters, for at least a decade and a half now, routinely take the three in that situation. A spot up three, unguarded, with rebounders in position is a very high probability play. We got a little unlucky the the rebound went as long as it did, by I suspect Coach K agreed with Quin's decision.

One quibble: we didn't have rebounders in position. Cook was ahead of the team and the defense. Notre Dame had the next two or 3 guys back, and then we have all four of our guys chasing the action, ahead of two of their guys. Not saying it was necessarily a bad shot, but we did not have rebounders ready.

[Neals384]

Someone suggested upthread that the players should be "forced to hit 500 free throws before bed". Perhaps the 500 is an exaggeration, but if the suggestion is that coaches challenge the players to improve free throw shooting, there is a better way. That's for the challenge to come from the players themselves. Coaches can teach free throw form, but motivation comes strongest via peer pressure. e.g. Amile to teammates "Guys, we have a team here that could be very special, but tonight we lost partly because of free throws. I pledge to you I'm going to work hard to bring my % up. And I'm challenging each of you to a nightly contest. Last one to sink 100 busses everyone's breakfast tray (or whatever embarrassing punishment they hate most). But if you don't think this team is special, it's OK if you skip the free throw challenge."

[rtnorthrup]

One quibble: we didn't have rebounders in position. Cook was ahead of the team and the defense. Notre Dame had the next two or 3 guys back, and then we have all four of our guys chasing the action, ahead of two of their guys. Not saying it was necessarily a bad shot, but we did not have rebounders ready.

It was a bad shot for many reasons: time and score, he wasn't really squared and ready to shoot, there were no rebounders, etc. etc. etc.

Context of the game matters when determining if a shot is good or bad. What may be a good shot at the 10:00 minute mark of the first half may not be a good shot when nursing a lead late in the game.

[CDu]

It was a bad shot for many reasons: time and score, he wasn't really squared and ready to shoot, there were no rebounders, etc. etc. etc.

Context of the game matters when determining if a shot is good or bad. What may be a good shot at the 10:00 minute mark of the first half may not be a good shot when nursing a lead late in the game.

I tend to agree. It all comes down to poise. For all the good about Cook, poise is not a strength. He has always played on emotion, and occasionally makes questionable decisions. Sometimes it works (the huge 3 against St. John's), sometimes it doesn't (last night).

[moonpie23]

Finishing the regular season 28-3, 27-4, or 26-5 would be disappointing? Wow I hope to be disappointed every single season if that is the case.

35-5 would be ok... (2010)

[gus]

One quibble: we didn't have rebounders in position. Cook was ahead of the team and the defense. Notre Dame had the next two or 3 guys back, and then we have all four of our guys chasing the action, ahead of two of their guys. Not saying it was necessarily a bad shot, but we did not have rebounders ready.

I'm going by memory - I though we had two rebounders in the key, and that cook had time to get his feet set. i was watching at work, so my memory and perception of the play are definitely suspect.

[moonpie23]

of course, that frickin circus shot was .....well......a FRICKIN CIRCUS SHOT....

[jv001]

I tend to agree. It all comes down to poise. For all the good about Cook, poise is not a strength. He has always played on emotion, and occasionally makes questionable decisions. Sometimes it works (the huge 3 against St. John's), sometimes it doesn't (last night).

Agree ^ in that a corner shot is probably the toughest of the 3 point shots and it seems that more run outs occur when the shot doesn't go in. But that's from my eye test and not any kind of statistical formula. :cool:
I think CDu is correct in his assessment of Quinn's emotional play and that it sometimes leads to negative results. I'm not bashing Quinn because I think he's been an excellent captain and player this season. Many times last year, Quinn took it upon himself to create offense and made some bad plays, but this year, he's been much better. It seems that Rasheed has taken over that role at times this season and sometimes the results are not pretty. Don't get me wrong, I'm one of Rasheed's biggest fans, but he does have his ups and downs. GoDuke!

[dukebballcamper90-91]

I think Marshall needed more time in this game. Classic case of tail (brey) wagging the dog (K), imo.

[Duvall]

I think Marshall needed more time in this game.

To do what?

[Billy Dat]

at the 10:59 mark in the second half, Okafor makes a layup to put us up 65-55. We go over 5 minutes of game time before Okafor gets another shot, and even worse, we quit running our offense through him. Notre Dame didn't change up their defense at all. We just stopped looking at him.Over those six minutes were the following offensive possessions: Quinn misses a 3; Winslow turnover; Matt Jones misses a 3; Quinn misses a 3; Rasheed misses a jumper; Quinn misses a jumper; and Tyus misses a 3.


This is a good summary, and K, in his post game comments, added some color to what had happened on the other end during the same stretch:

“We had the out of bounds under [the basket] with seven seconds [on the shot clock] with a ten-point lead and we should have gotten something from it. We lost the ball and we were in position to get fouled or to get a three-point play. That was a huge play right there. Then when they came down, there was a loose ball that we had an opportunity to get, but they got it and we fouled. They hit one free throw, then missed and got two points. Those two exchanges, if you do them right, you’re up by 12 or 13, or at the very least you’re up by ten with the ball. That’s what happens in games. You have to beat other people when they’re playing well. They’re good and they’re playing well. Those are critical plays that if you make then you don’t have the end of the game.”


I'm going by memory - I though we had two rebounders in the key, and that cook had time to get his feet set. i was watching at work, so my memory and perception of the play are definitely suspect.

When this play happened, I was mad that Quinn didn't take the ball to the hoop to try and get a lay-up, draw a foul, or dump it off to one of the bigs. We had numbers and I think a drive was a higher percentage play. But, he was hot and if the shot goes in, as others have said, it's a big shot and maybe we stop the bleeding. But, on a break like that, I wanted a drive, especially with the floor out of balance.

All of the above made it a painful loss because we lost in an atypical manner which, these days, means it wasn't an out and out defensive disaster.

[dukebballcamper90-91]

Agree ^ in that a corner shot is probably the toughest of the 3 point shots and it seems that more run outs occur when the shot doesn't go in. But that's from my eye test and not any kind of statistical formula. :cool:

Didn't our beloved Battier teach his followers about the corner 3 being the best, closet, higher %, or something like that?

[sagegrouse]

Oh, and

Matt jones leaving the three point shooter.

I still don't get his defensive cred.

[sorry just reading the thread after a long night.]

Tyus made a defensive mistake and Matt covered for him against Jerian Grant. K said we should have given up a two-point shot to Grant rather than leave a three-point shooter open at that stage of the game with a one-point deficit.

diappoinedly,
Sage
'Get used to seeing Matt on the floor - he's gonna get serious minutes'

[dukebballcamper90-91]

To do what?

To do similar things he did against St Johns. ND used small ball to beat us. Last time I checked 7'0 is > than 6'10, 6'9, 6'8, 6'7, 6'6, 6'5.

[CDu]

Not much to add to the 10 page thread, but here are some of my observations:
1) We were beaten by a very good offensive team and we should not be ashamed. We played before a great fan base that was in it most of the game. The Irish are well coached and can really shoot the ball.
2) We were beaten by a bad defensive team and we should be a little ashamed that our offense didn't take advantage of the bad defense.
3) The FT shooting by Jahlil and Amile was horrific. They must do better and I can't blame Coach K for having both on the bench under 2 minute mark.
4) We have way too much standing on defense. We don't seem to be in a good defensive stance and ready to make a play. Tyus and Jahlil are the two worst offenders. They are freshman, but after 20 games, they should be better on defense.
5) Normally I would say our offense should always start with the ball going down to Jahlil, but in the 2nd half, our guards showed a great ability to get into the lane and cause the Irish some trouble(back to their bad defense). We went away from that and we lost our poise. We really didn't play smart after getting that 10 point lead and this led to our not getting many field goals down the stretch. I attribute this to Duke and not the Irish's defense.
6) Very important. Justise seems to be getting healthy. He played a very good game. However he's still not 100% but he sure did hit some big 3s.
7) We still have trouble guarding the ball. Tyus and Quinn are not very good at this part of the game. Rasheed and Matt are a little better but we suffer on offense when they spell our starting guards. Rasheed still get's out of control and makes some bad decisions.
8) Our schedule gets kinder after the VA game and look for the team to go 9-2 or 10-1 if they play up to their potential.
That won't win the conference but with some of the other teams facing the tough part of their schedules, we should make up some ground.
It was not a horrible thing to lose to ND on their home court. They are a good team and have a good coach. Grant is probably the best all around player in the ACC. Good offense and good defense. He is a senior and that makes a difference. Now let's play our best game of the year against the top team in the conference. GoDuke!

I think this summarizes things really well. I thought that, for nearly 30 minutes, we completely outplayed Notre Dame. We were up by 10, and had we had better fortune on several layups, we could have been up by around 20. At that point, I was feeling really good about our team. Combined with the end of the St John's game, it really seemed like we had hit a new gear (or perhaps regained our early-season gear). But then the last 10 or so minutes happened, and that happiness was largely washed away. We played an incredibly poor game the rest of the way. Completely devoid of poise, several noteworthy slips in defensive focus. And Notre Dame, being a good offensive team with lots of experience and the home crowd behind them, punished us for our lack of poise.

That is a concern for me. We are perhaps the most talented team in the country from one to 6 or 7, but we are not a very poised team. It is a bit understandable: we rely largely on 3 freshmen, two upperclassmen who are not known for their poise, another upperclassman who doesn't seem to have a ton of confidence offensively, and a sophomore who hasn't found his offensive game yet. Ideally, our veterans would have great composure and make good decisions and lead the team in tough times, but right now they don't seem to be doing that consistently. When we are hitting shots, we are brimming with confidence, but when we hit the skids we don't seem to have that calming presence to settle things down. Tyus Jones seems the most likely option, but that is asking a LOT of a freshman.

I wouldn't have thought that it was our offense that would cost us this game, but that's exactly what happened. Our defense played okay, but our offense down the stretch was just atrocious (especially considering how poor a defensive team Notre Dame is).

Kudos to Notre Dame for hanging around and making us pay for our poor play down the stretch, but a lot of this loss is on us.

[_Gary]

Two things got us in this game. A third if you count a few poor defensive lapses and a couple of bad turnovers in the first half. But those things are minor compared to the two biggies:

1) Free Throws. Just not sure how we can correct that at this point. But as soon as Jah missed the first of a couple of front ends on 1-and-1's, I looked to my daughter and said, "Free throws are going to cost us." It's painful to see this team (other than our two PGs) shoot them, knowing the chances are very high we won't knock them down. It's just a killer and I won't at all be surprised if that is the reason we lose a close game in the tourney.

2) The leprechaun. Once more, in the first half after Duke had missed what seemed to me to be about their 10th chippie, I screamed out at the TV, "Someone get that darned leprechaun off our basket!" It was incredible and continued into the 2nd half. And if that wasn't bad enough, the little green guy also seemed to be magically guiding the Irish's balls as well. Whether it be a shot, a ridiculous bail-out pass after a bad decision to go up into the air, or a loose ball bouncing right to them, Notre Dame really did seem to get every break imaginable. It was very frustrating. Much worse than the State game with all the 3's going in. Much worse. We win that game last night, in spite of the free throws, 10 out of 10 times, without all those insane bounces of the ball.

All that to say that I'm not overly concerned. But the free throws really will come back to haunt to us in the Big Dance if we can't find a way to shore it up. Maybe we can get the leprechaun on loan once or twice ourselves. Some would say we had him back in December when we played at Wisconsin. Maybe he helped a bit with some of our shots. But it can't compare to all the bounces the Irish got last night. That was truly unbelievable.

[CDu]

To do similar things he did against St Johns. ND used small ball to beat us. Last time I checked 7'0 is > than 6'10, 6'9, 6'8, 6'7, 6'6, 6'5.

Plumlee did very little while he was on the floor. Furthermore, we didn't lose because of our lack of size. We lost because we stopped being effective offensively, and that is NOT an area where Plumlee makes a big difference.

[Jeffrey]

'Get used to seeing Matt on the floor - he's gonna get serious minutes'

Hi,

Yes, he should!

[Jeffrey]

.... all the bounces the Irish got last night. That was truly unbelievable.

Hi,

Agreed, the bounces and rims were not kind to us last night. I'm hoping mean reversion occurs at UVA.

[Dukehky]

I see so much hate on Tyus and Quinn's inability to stop the ball. While Tyus isn't great defensively, when he doesn't have to pressure 30 feet from the hoop, he does much better, and Quinn has been really good of late staying in front of his man. The problem is that our bigs are so terrible on pick and roll. Jah and Amile and Marshall all do bad things on the hedge. Marshall hedges way too aggressively and either fouls or is 15 feet out of position. Jah is slow on his hedges, and Amile always calls a switch, leaving 2 pretty big mis matches.

Quinn played really good defense last night on one of the best guards in the country. ND's scoring did not come from some incredible guard penetration off 1 on 1 moves. They used pick and rolls effectively to get the defense out of position, then they put on a ball movement clinic, like they do all the time. Our quibbles with the defense lie on the secondary defenders being terrible at pick and roll defense. It's really hard to guard, which is why everyone in the NBA runs that ish almost exclusively.

Also, for everyone with the snarky comment that it doesn't matter if Jah gets more fouls called if he can't hit free throws; it does matter and it makes a huge difference for several reasons.

1. Obviously, if defenders get called for all the times they foul Okafor, they aren't going to be in the game very long.
2. If we get fouls called early in the half and get to the bonus early, then by late in the game Jah gets 2 free throws instead of 1 and 1. He may be terrible at the line, but he is above 50% and I would rather have 1 point than 0 points because he missed the front end of a 1 and 1.
3. For the same reason above, our guards can be more aggressive, and their defense has to be more careful because you can't foul Quinn or Tyus because it is almost an automatic 2 points for Duke. This aversion to fouling will open things up even more on the offensive end.
4. If the refs call these fouls, then it means they're doing their jobs well, which is better for basketball.

[KandG]

Good analysis of Duke's defensive issues (though defensive rebounding, one of the issues brought up, was better last night I think):

http://bballbreakdown.com/2015/01/28/does-duke-have-a-championship-level-defense-2/

Also, thought this piece on NBA prospects with scout observations made a very interesting point about perception of Coach K and teaching defense to one-and-dones. The notes about Winslow and Tyus are also notable, though just my opinion, I don't think this year's team gets to the Final Four unless Justise raises the level of play back to the point where he's likely to get drafted this year. The injuries have really hurt his (essential) contributions to the team.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2345433-kings-court-nba-scouts-weigh-in-on-potential-of-college-hoops-biggest-stars?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=share&utm_campaign=web-des-art-top-2201

"Duke doesn't really force its one-and-dones to play tough defense. At Kentucky, they start with defense first and let their natural offensive ability carry them. Duke is just the opposite. Their defensive foundation has always relied on juniors and seniors to lead the charge. But they're not asking these freshmen to do much of anything defensively, which kind of bites them in the butt. So I'm not sure Okafor has ever really been taught how to play defense. He's not a rim protector. They just hope he stays in there and clogs the middle a little bit."

[KandG]

Agree ^ in that a corner shot is probably the toughest of the 3 point shots and it seems that more run outs occur when the shot doesn't go in. But that's from my eye test and not any kind of statistical formula. :cool:


Didn't our beloved Battier teach his followers about the corner 3 being the best, closet, higher %, or something like that?

I've seen a couple of studies referenced by NBA pundits that disproved the difficulty of the corner 3 and the likelihood of run outs (though an old school coach will occasionally mention it). The corner 3 is the closest of the 3s and teams have adjusted their floor balance and offensive rebounding position to account for where corner 3s are likely to be rebounded, thanks to the optical data that's out there.

[Lar77]

Two things got us in this game. A third if you count a few poor defensive lapses and a couple of bad turnovers in the first half. But those things are minor compared to the two biggies:

1) Free Throws. Just not sure how we can correct that at this point. But as soon as Jah missed the first of a couple of front ends on 1-and-1's, I looked to my daughter and said, "Free throws are going to cost us." It's painful to see this team (other than our two PGs) shoot them, knowing the chances are very high we won't knock them down. It's just a killer and I won't at all be surprised if that is the reason we lose a close game in the tourney.

2) The leprechaun. Once more, in the first half after Duke had missed what seemed to me to be about their 10th chippie, I screamed out at the TV, "Someone get that darned leprechaun off our basket!" It was incredible and continued into the 2nd half. And if that wasn't bad enough, the little green guy also seemed to be magically guiding the Irish's balls as well. Whether it be a shot, a ridiculous bail-out pass after a bad decision to go up into the air, or a loose ball bouncing right to them, Notre Dame really did seem to get every break imaginable. It was very frustrating. Much worse than the State game with all the 3's going in. Much worse. We win that game last night, in spite of the free throws, 10 out of 10 times, without all those insane bounces of the ball.

All that to say that I'm not overly concerned. But the free throws really will come back to haunt to us in the Big Dance if we can't find a way to shore it up. Maybe we can get the leprechaun on loan once or twice ourselves. Some would say we had him back in December when we played at Wisconsin. Maybe he helped a bit with some of our shots. But it can't compare to all the bounces the Irish got last night. That was truly unbelievable.


My hang-up with this team is defense. We should be better. Your point 2 probably contributed most to your point 3. K has pointed out several times that this is a team that offense leads the defense. If shots don't fall, the players lose focus on defense. When the shots are rim out layups, that has to have an effect. How can Auguste go for two "layup-drill" layups?

It's not effort. It's not chemistry. It's focus and communication. It's positioning.

We are now 2-1 on top ten team home floors. That's a pretty good standard. But we are better than this.

Congratulations to the Irish. Payback is hell.

Side comment/question: Why was Plumlee given only a 1 and 1 when Connaughton went over his back? He was clearly going to go up for the shot. Then again he also double-dribbled prior to the foul so it evens out.

[pfrduke]

I've seen a couple of studies referenced by NBA pundits that disproved the difficulty of the corner 3 and the likelihood of run outs (though an old school coach will occasionally mention it). The corner 3 is the closest of the 3s and teams have adjusted their floor balance and offensive rebounding position to account for where corner 3s are likely to be rebounded, thanks to the optical data that's out there.

Note that the value proposition of a corner 3 is different in the NBA from college basketball. In college, the 3pt line is a uniform distance from the hoop all over the floor. In the NBA, because the 3 pt line at the top of the key is deeper, it is not a perfectly even arc across the floor, but is closer in the corners than from other spots. It's an easier shot relative to other 3s because of the distance, something that's not true in college.

[azzefkram]

I think this summarizes things really well. I thought that, for nearly 30 minutes, we completely outplayed Notre Dame. We were up by 10, and had we had better fortune on several layups, we could have been up by around 20. At that point, I was feeling really good about our team. Combined with the end of the St John's game, it really seemed like we had hit a new gear (or perhaps regained our early-season gear). But then the last 10 or so minutes happened, and that happiness was largely washed away. We played an incredibly poor game the rest of the way. Completely devoid of poise, several noteworthy slips in defensive focus. And Notre Dame, being a good offensive team with lots of experience and the home crowd behind them, punished us for our lack of poise.

That is a concern for me. We are perhaps the most talented team in the country from one to 6 or 7, but we are not a very poised team. It is a bit understandable: we rely largely on 3 freshmen, two upperclassmen who are not known for their poise, another upperclassman who doesn't seem to have a ton of confidence offensively, and a sophomore who hasn't found his offensive game yet. Ideally, our veterans would have great composure and make good decisions and lead the team in tough times, but right now they don't seem to be doing that consistently. When we are hitting shots, we are brimming with confidence, but when we hit the skids we don't seem to have that calming presence to settle things down. Tyus Jones seems the most likely option, but that is asking a LOT of a freshman.

I wouldn't have thought that it was our offense that would cost us this game, but that's exactly what happened. Our defense played okay, but our offense down the stretch was just atrocious (especially considering how poor a defensive team Notre Dame is).

Kudos to Notre Dame for hanging around and making us pay for our poor play down the stretch, but a lot of this loss is on us.

I agree with a lot of this and especially the last line. I am not as concerned about the poise issue as you appear to be. I don't think it will be a strength but it's closer to a neutral than a detriment.

[CDu]

Good analysis of Duke's defensive issues (though defensive rebounding, one of the issues brought up, was better last night I think):

http://bballbreakdown.com/2015/01/28/does-duke-have-a-championship-level-defense-2/

Also, thought this piece on NBA prospects with scout observations made a very interesting point about perception of Coach K and teaching defense to one-and-dones. The notes about Winslow and Tyus are also notable, though just my opinion, I don't think this year's team gets to the Final Four unless Justise raises the level of play back to the point where he's likely to get drafted this year. The injuries have really hurt his (essential) contributions to the team.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2345433-kings-court-nba-scouts-weigh-in-on-potential-of-college-hoops-biggest-stars?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=share&utm_campaign=web-des-art-top-2201

"Duke doesn't really force its one-and-dones to play tough defense. At Kentucky, they start with defense first and let their natural offensive ability carry them. Duke is just the opposite. Their defensive foundation has always relied on juniors and seniors to lead the charge. But they're not asking these freshmen to do much of anything defensively, which kind of bites them in the butt. So I'm not sure Okafor has ever really been taught how to play defense. He's not a rim protector. They just hope he stays in there and clogs the middle a little bit."

The first article there is a terrific breakdown of our defensive problems. Cook and Jones are not good on-ball defenders at all. Cook is a bit better than Jones at it, but neither is good at it. Sulaimon is better at on-ball defense than either of them, be even he is not terribly good at it. And all of the freshman (and even some of the upperclassmen) are guilty of ball-watching rather than defending. The freshmen are certainly the worst at it.

Okafor is an unbelievably talented offensive player, with a skill set that is extremely rare for a big man his age (or a big man period). But for all the talk about how our interior defense would be better with Okafor replacing Parker, that does not appear to be the case. Okafor looks as unprepared defensively as Parker did last year. For whatever reason, he and Tyus Jones are just not ready to play team defense at the major college level yet. That's a big part of the issue with the one-and-dones, and it appears Coach K hasn't quite figured out how to address it yet.

I don't necessarily agree with quote from the second article. I don't think that Duke is any less focused on defense. I just think that, for whatever reason, Duke has had a run of guys not prepared defensively. Note that, for all the talk about "Kentucky focusing on defense first", their best defender is a senior, and a big part of why they are good defensively is because they are just extremely long and athletic at every spot on the floor. Duke is not extremely long or overly athletic at most spots on the floor.

I do fear that, defensively, we're not going to be great as long as we rely on Cook, Tyus Jones, and Okafor for major minutes. Matt Jones, Sulaimon, and Plumlee are three better options defensively, but playing them results in a HUGE step down offensively. So I think we're sort of stuck with what we have, and the plan appears to be to try to 'bandaid' it enough and hope our offense is good enough to win the day. Against many teams, we'll be able to get away with the zone for extended stretches. But against veteran, well-disciplined, talented offenses, that may not be enough.

Fortunately, there are very few teams left on our regular season schedule that are equipped to really punish us defensively. UVa can do it, and UNC can if they are shooting well. And obviously Notre Dame is a threat on any night. But the rest of our opponents are pretty deficient in talent and/or experience to make our defense suffer.

The problem is that, when we get to the tournament, we are not likely to be able to avoid teams that can punish our defense. Maybe for a game or two, but not beyond that. Hopefully we can find a good enough bandaid, or else we just have to hope for good matchups and/or amazing offensive play throughout.

[CDu]

Note that the value proposition of a corner 3 is different in the NBA from college basketball. In college, the 3pt line is a uniform distance from the hoop all over the floor. In the NBA, because the 3 pt line at the top of the key is deeper, it is not a perfectly even arc across the floor, but is closer in the corners than from other spots. It's an easier shot relative to other 3s because of the distance, something that's not true in college.

I was just typing the same thing. The corner 3 in the NBA is almost 2 feet closer than the rest of the areas (22 feet versus 23 feet, 9 inches). So that reduction in distance more than offsets the awkward shooting angle (no backboard to work with).

In college, it is the same distance all the way around. So there is no advantage to the corner shot over the shot from other spots. Unless you have a player that is just particularly adept from there over other spots (like Nate James and Tyler Thornton), it's not really beneficial. And it certainly puts you at a defensive disadvantage because you are about as far away from a good defensive position as you can be (outside of a driving layup attempt).

[toooskies]

Agree ^ in that a corner shot is probably the toughest of the 3 point shots and it seems that more run outs occur when the shot doesn't go in. But that's from my eye test and not any kind of statistical formula. :cool:


Didn't our beloved Battier teach his followers about the corner 3 being the best, closet, higher %, or something like that?

That applies to the NBA, where the arc is closer in the corners, making the corner 3 an easier shot than from other spots on the floor (in aggregate).

At the college level, it's no easier or harder from the corners than from the wings or the top of the key. Each shot is fundamentally the same. It really just depends on how comfortable the player is looking at the hoop from that angle.

---------------------------------

I'm on board with the "play Plumlee" contingent. I didn't see the game, and Plumlee's impact isn't directly in the stats, but his +- led the team once again in (just) 6 minutes of play. Plumlee adds a dimension of challenging shots that Okafor and Jefferson just don't have. I also think small ball is a sucker's bet. It works in the NBA when your SF is 6'9", an NBA veteran, and played PF in college, but it's less effective when your 4-man is a 6'6" banged up small forward who might be an NBA shooting guard. I don't think our small-ball 4s (especially this year) have the skills to perform big-man functions on our defense.

Also, I don't think small-ball is as necessary when you have a C like Okafor who can pass to the other big when double-teamed and can get good shots off even with two bigs in the paint.

---------------------------------

I've always been mystified by how basketball players who clearly put time into their game like Okafor can still miss so many free throws. Especially since his jump shot is solid. I'd offer advice based on physics/statistics (shorter guys tend to make more free throws; maybe that's because the top of the arc of their shot is closer to the hoop than taller guys; so maybe lowering the release point of the shot would help), but I'm not going to come up with anything they aren't already trying to fix.

I'm sure both Coach K and Okafor know that FT shooting for Jah is one of two weak points in his overall game, just like it was for Mason. But you don't play 6-10 years of competitive basketball without trying to figure out how to shoot FTs better (and practicing them frequently). For Mason, a great improvement for him was the simple change of "don't dribble the basketball in your FT routine", which still doesn't make sense as to why it worked. You'd think Shaq would've gotten better from the sheer quantity of "practice" FTs he took in games. The guy shot 11,252 free throws in the NBA and still only made 56% in his final season.

What that says to me is, I don't think it's an effort or repetition thing that holds any but the laziest players back from making more FTs. Some techniques are better than others, but some just have better muscle memory for their technique.

And one more thing: Justise Winslow is only shooting 58% from the line (compared to Jahlil's 56% and Amile's 58%), so let's not excuse him from needing improvement, too.

[grad_devil]

Dang.

I hated to lose this game, but like many of you, I'm not nearly as upset for the guys as I was after Miami or NCSU - we stunk in those games, while this one was very winnable.

After watching Grant have one heck of a game, it made me think about his ineligibility last year due to academics. Instead of create a complex system of fraudulent course to rob him of an education - yet keep him eligible to make money for the institution - Notre Dame followed the rules, sat a future (probable) All-American, and allowed him to focus on his courses and regain his good academic standing.

I guess that's the "ND Way". A nice contrast, wouldn't you agree?

[jv001]

Dang.

I hated to lose this game, but like many of you, I'm not nearly as upset for the guys as I was after Miami or NCSU - we stunk in those games, while this one was very winnable.

After watching Grant have one heck of a game, it made me think about his ineligibility last year due to academics. Instead of create a complex system of fraudulent course to rob him of an education - yet keep him eligible to make money for the institution - Notre Dame followed the rules, sat a future (probable) All-American, and allowed him to focus on his courses and regain his good academic standing.

I guess that's the "ND Way". A nice contrast, wouldn't you agree?

Good post, but I'm trying my level best to not let my hate for all things uncheat, get me started again. I had what I think, was my first post deleted yesterday on this subject, I probably deserved it, :cool: GoDuke!

[jv001]

The first article there is a terrific breakdown of our defensive problems. Cook and Jones are not good on-ball defenders at all. Cook is a bit better than Jones at it, but neither is good at it. Sulaimon is better at on-ball defense than either of them, be even he is not terribly good at it. And all of the freshman (and even some of the upperclassmen) are guilty of ball-watching rather than defending. The freshmen are certainly the worst at it.

Okafor is an unbelievably talented offensive player, with a skill set that is extremely rare for a big man his age (or a big man period). But for all the talk about how our interior defense would be better with Okafor replacing Parker, that does not appear to be the case. Okafor looks as unprepared defensively as Parker did last year. For whatever reason, he and Tyus Jones are just not ready to play team defense at the major college level yet. That's a big part of the issue with the one-and-dones, and it appears Coach K hasn't quite figured out how to address it yet.

I don't necessarily agree with quote from the second article. I don't think that Duke is any less focused on defense. I just think that, for whatever reason, Duke has had a run of guys not prepared defensively. Note that, for all the talk about "Kentucky focusing on defense first", their best defender is a senior, and a big part of why they are good defensively is because they are just extremely long and athletic at every spot on the floor. Duke is not extremely long or overly athletic at most spots on the floor.

I do fear that, defensively, we're not going to be great as long as we rely on Cook, Tyus Jones, and Okafor for major minutes. Matt Jones, Sulaimon, and Plumlee are three better options defensively, but playing them results in a HUGE step down offensively. So I think we're sort of stuck with what we have, and the plan appears to be to try to 'bandaid' it enough and hope our offense is good enough to win the day. Against many teams, we'll be able to get away with the zone for extended stretches. But against veteran, well-disciplined, talented offenses, that may not be enough.
Fortunately, there are very few teams left on our regular season schedule that are equipped to really punish us defensively. UVa can do it, and UNC can if they are shooting well. And obviously Notre Dame is a threat on any night. But the rest of our opponents are pretty deficient in talent and/or experience to make our defense suffer.

The problem is that, when we get to the tournament, we are not likely to be able to avoid teams that can punish our defense. Maybe for a game or two, but not beyond that. Hopefully we can find a good enough bandaid, or else we just have to hope for good matchups and/or amazing offensive play throughout.

I agree with your entire post but especially the bolded part. I hope Coach K can find a way to reduce Jahlil's minutes because 1) It could help his FT shooting and it should really help him be a better defender. 2) MPIII has value to this team but how he's used and when he's used is key. I believe he fits in well with Jahlil and I believe he fits in well in the zone with Jahlil. I'm not looking for major minutes for Marshall, but more than the 6 minutes he got last night. If he had better hands and used the hook shot when he is in the lineup that would help. And please guards, don't give him the ball when he is away from the basket or on the move. I'm hoping it clicks for Rasheed because he does have the talent. He just doesn't seem to move laterally very well. But as you said, he is a better on the ball defender than Tyus and Quinn, just not that much better. Of our 3 bench players, we'll probably get the most offense from Rasheed. We need for him to play with the poise of a junior. Your bandaid term seems right on. GoDuke!

[Troublemaker]

That is a concern for me. We are perhaps the most talented team in the country from one to 6 or 7, but we are not a very poised team. It is a bit understandable: we rely largely on 3 freshmen, two upperclassmen who are not known for their poise, another upperclassman who doesn't seem to have a ton of confidence offensively, and a sophomore who hasn't found his offensive game yet. Ideally, our veterans would have great composure and make good decisions and lead the team in tough times, but right now they don't seem to be doing that consistently. When we are hitting shots, we are brimming with confidence, but when we hit the skids we don't seem to have that calming presence to settle things down. Tyus Jones seems the most likely option, but that is asking a LOT of a freshman.


I agree with a lot of this and especially the last line. I am not as concerned about the poise issue as you appear to be. I don't think it will be a strength but it's closer to a neutral than a detriment.

I dunno, I think our poise down the stretch of games has been pretty good numerous times this season. At Wisconsin is an example. At St. John's in the comeback. At Wake Forest, after they took the lead. Against MSU, when the Spartans had cut our lead to 3 around the midpoint of the 2nd half. I think we are a poised team, but it just didn't show last night.

[jv001]

I dunno, I think our poise down the stretch of games has been pretty good numerous times this season. At Wisconsin is an example. At St. John's in the comeback. At Wake Forest, after they took the lead. Against MSU, when the Spartans had cut our lead to 3 around the midpoint of the 2nd half. I think we are a poised team, but it just didn't show last night.

It seems when the shots are going in, we look poised. As was the case in the Wisconsin game. Against St. Johns it looked like the team suddenly got tired of being bullied. Funny, against St. Johns they played like a wining team for 30 minutes and last night, we played like a winning team for about 30 minutes. The one thing I do know is losing our poise last night probably cost us this game. Plus the terrible FT shooting from our bigs. GoDuke!

[Kedsy]

Normally I would say our offense should always start with the ball going down to Jahlil, but in the 2nd half, our guards showed a great ability to get into the lane and cause the Irish some trouble(back to their bad defense). We went away from that and we lost our poise. We really didn't play smart after getting that 10 point lead and this led to our not getting many field goals down the stretch.

As ntnorthrup pointed out earlier, what actually changed during Notre Dame's 12-0 run is that Jahlil didn't touch the ball on offense. I think if Jahlil had had some touches during that stretch, the game may have turned out differently.


Very important. Justise seems to be getting healthy. He played a very good game. However he's still not 100% but he sure did hit some big 3s.

Perhaps Justise's three three-point FGs are evidence that he's feeling better, but other than making those shots he didn't seem any more dynamic than he has the past few games. Earlier in the season, he was everywhere on the court, especially on defense. He's the reason our D looked good in the pre-ACC portion of our schedule. But he's not playing that way lately, and he didn't play that way last night. Hopefully the "real" Justise Winslow will reappear soon. Saturday might be nice.


I hate losing ... BUT, I was not as torn up after this game as I was after the NCSU and UM games. I thought the team played really well. We had a couple layups spin out and our team FT% was awful. Grant hit some really tough (circus?) shots down the stretch, and we just couldn't match the intensity all the way to the end. Yet, we were still in it at the end against a really good team.

I completely agree. We missed 16 (!) layups, and 10 free throws. And still we could have won against the #8 team in the country on its home floor, if not for that ridiculous shot.


I'm going by memory - I though we had two rebounders in the key, and that cook had time to get his feet set. i was watching at work, so my memory and perception of the play are definitely suspect.

I'm also going on memory but I agree with your perception. I recall two Duke guys near the basket (though on a corner three the best rebounding position is long, and the Notre Dame guy had that position), and I thought Quinn got his feet set fine. Of all the shots we took in that stretch, that was the one with which I was most comfortable.


To do similar things he did against St Johns. ND used small ball to beat us. Last time I checked 7'0 is > than 6'10, 6'9, 6'8, 6'7, 6'6, 6'5.

Coach K clearly didn't want to play a lot of zone in this game (although Notre Dame didn't appear to shoot so well against our zone, so maybe we should have employed it more), and Marshall showed early that he couldn't keep up with Connaughton. So I don't think Marshall could have done "similar things he did against St Johns" in this game.


Note that, for all the talk about "Kentucky focusing on defense first", their best defender is a senior, and a big part of why they are good defensively is because they are just extremely long and athletic at every spot on the floor.

If you mean Cauley-Stein, he's only a junior. Admittedly, on a Kentucky team a junior sort of seems like a sixth-year senior compared to most of the players on his team.

[Kedsy]

I dunno, I think our poise down the stretch of games has been pretty good numerous times this season. At Wisconsin is an example. At St. John's in the comeback. At Wake Forest, after they took the lead. Against MSU, when the Spartans had cut our lead to 3 around the midpoint of the 2nd half. I think we are a poised team, but it just didn't show last night.

What struck me was how the team reacted when the lead went from 10 to 4 in a minute and a half. The announcers were going crazy because Notre Dame had come back from all those double-digit deficits, and it seemed the Duke players felt the same way. But it was nothing, just two possessions (and only one empty Duke possession), but for some reason it took Duke out of its winning mindset. If we'd simply recognized it for what it was (one missed Duke shot and two good Notre Dame possessions) and kept playing the way we had been, the game story would have been quite different.

[Troublemaker]

...Marshall showed early that he couldn't keep up with Connaughton. So I don't think Marshall could have done "similar things he did against St Johns" in this game.

While I agree that Marshall wasn't going to make an SJU-like impact in this game, I disagree with the bold. I think if you check the replay, you'll find that Marshall didn't even matchup with Connaughton, who was primarily checked by Justise in this game. Coach K chose to put Amile/Marshall on Vasturia primarily. There were a couple of sequences in the game where Marshall had Vasturia with the ball on the perimeter, and Marshall defended just fine. I think it was Marshall's ghastly ball-handling/passing at the top of key (Amile's spot, usually) that prevented Marshall from getting more minutes in this game alongside Jahlil.

[Rich]

The first article there is a terrific breakdown of our defensive problems. Cook and Jones are not good on-ball defenders at all. Cook is a bit better than Jones at it, but neither is good at it. Sulaimon is better at on-ball defense than either of them, be even he is not terribly good at it. And all of the freshman (and even some of the upperclassmen) are guilty of ball-watching rather than defending. The freshmen are certainly the worst at it.

Okafor is an unbelievably talented offensive player, with a skill set that is extremely rare for a big man his age (or a big man period). But for all the talk about how our interior defense would be better with Okafor replacing Parker, that does not appear to be the case. Okafor looks as unprepared defensively as Parker did last year. For whatever reason, he and Tyus Jones are just not ready to play team defense at the major college level yet. That's a big part of the issue with the one-and-dones, and it appears Coach K hasn't quite figured out how to address it yet.

I don't necessarily agree with quote from the second article. I don't think that Duke is any less focused on defense. I just think that, for whatever reason, Duke has had a run of guys not prepared defensively. Note that, for all the talk about "Kentucky focusing on defense first", their best defender is a senior, and a big part of why they are good defensively is because they are just extremely long and athletic at every spot on the floor. Duke is not extremely long or overly athletic at most spots on the floor.

I do fear that, defensively, we're not going to be great as long as we rely on Cook, Tyus Jones, and Okafor for major minutes. Matt Jones, Sulaimon, and Plumlee are three better options defensively, but playing them results in a HUGE step down offensively. So I think we're sort of stuck with what we have, and the plan appears to be to try to 'bandaid' it enough and hope our offense is good enough to win the day. Against many teams, we'll be able to get away with the zone for extended stretches. But against veteran, well-disciplined, talented offenses, that may not be enough.

Fortunately, there are very few teams left on our regular season schedule that are equipped to really punish us defensively. UVa can do it, and UNC can if they are shooting well. And obviously Notre Dame is a threat on any night. But the rest of our opponents are pretty deficient in talent and/or experience to make our defense suffer.

The problem is that, when we get to the tournament, we are not likely to be able to avoid teams that can punish our defense. Maybe for a game or two, but not beyond that. Hopefully we can find a good enough bandaid, or else we just have to hope for good matchups and/or amazing offensive play throughout.

I'd say that the vast majority of kids out of high school are not prepared to play defense at the collegiate level. It's not a Duke thing per se. But clearly, Coach K's teams that have excelled have had excellent communicators and, with the rare exception here and there, upperclassman directing the defense. When we play three freshmen, and rely on them so much for offense that they need big minutes, we are simply not going to be as solid on the defensive end no matter how athletic they are.

I don't want to hijack this thread, but assuming Justise and Tyus stay at least another year, I think we'll have a better defensive team next year with only Cook and Okafor leaving. I'm not sure if any of our recruits are one-and-done candidates, but our defense will only get better if and when upperclassmen take up the majority of minutes.

[sagegrouse]

I do fear that, defensively, we're not going to be great as long as we rely on Cook, Tyus Jones, and Okafor for major minutes. Matt Jones, Sulaimon, and Plumlee are three better options defensively, but playing them results in a HUGE step down offensively. So I think we're sort of stuck with what we have, and the plan appears to be to try to 'bandaid' it enough and hope our offense is good enough to win the day. Against many teams, we'll be able to get away with the zone for extended stretches. But against veteran, well-disciplined, talented offenses, that may not be enough.



CDu, your quoted paragraph may be a case of "take two aspirins and think about it in the morning." Okafor, Tyus and Quinn are not gonna sit. In fact, Okafor played 36 minutes, scored 22 points and had 17 rebounds. Zach Auguste, whom he was guarding, was 14 and 6. Although Okafor looked bad on a few plays, the results appear to speak loudly in favor of keeping him on the court.:) No question, Tyus and Cook had their hands full with Jerian Grant, which is not a disgrace, but our tag-team approach seemed to work against Connaughton.

When Tyus poked the ball away from Grant, I thought we were gonna win, by scoring on the subsequent run-out and then shutting down the Irish. Oops! That shot by Jerian was a total joke, and I am not laughing.

[Kedsy]

While I agree that Marshall wasn't going to make an SJU-like impact in this game, I disagree with the bold. I think if you check the replay, you'll find that Marshall didn't even matchup with Connaughton, who was primarily checked by Justise in this game.

I thought it was Connaughton, but it's possible I got him mixed up with Vasturia. They're about the same height and build, and on TV sometimes it's hard to distinguish unless you get a close-up of their faces.

[Troublemaker]

What struck me was how the team reacted when the lead went from 10 to 4 in a minute and a half. The announcers were going crazy because Notre Dame had come back from all those double-digit deficits, and it seemed the Duke players felt the same way. But it was nothing, just two possessions (and only one empty Duke possession), but for some reason it took Duke out of its winning mindset. If we'd simply recognized it for what it was (one missed Duke shot and two good Notre Dame possessions) and kept playing the way we had been, the game story would have been quite different.

I agree. Perhaps because the team felt (with cause) that they should've been up by a much greater margin after blowing so many easy opportunities, when Notre Dame cut the lead down to four, it had a much greater effect on the team than it usually would. They cracked a bit.

I would draw the comparison to what happened with the Packers in the NFC Championship game. They thoroughly outplayed Seattle for much of the game and should've been up by much more than 16-0. So when Seattle started to make their comeback, the Packers cracked.

[CDu]

What struck me was how the team reacted when the lead went from 10 to 4 in a minute and a half. The announcers were going crazy because Notre Dame had come back from all those double-digit deficits, and it seemed the Duke players felt the same way. But it was nothing, just two possessions (and only one empty Duke possession), but for some reason it took Duke out of its winning mindset. If we'd simply recognized it for what it was (one missed Duke shot and two good Notre Dame possessions) and kept playing the way we had been, the game story would have been quite different.

And this gets back to the "poise" issue. As jv001 said (and I think Coach K was alluding to earlier in the season), when we make shots we look poised. But it is when things go a bit awry that we frequently don't look poised.

That was what I thought was great about the St. John's game: it seemed like we showed great poise in coming back. But maybe it was just a case of finally stepping up and making shots to beat down an inferior opponent.

Last night, for whatever reason, we just completely lost our composure for the last 10 minutes of the game. It showed up mostly on the offensive end, where we made lazy decisions repeatedly rather than focusing on good offensive decisions and attacking the defense (a bad defense at that). And it was compounded by some pretty poor free throw shooting by Okafor.

We are as talented as any team in the country. And when our head is on right, we can score against just about anyone in the country. But it seems like we can get rattled pretty easily.

[CDu]

I thought it was Connaughton, but it's possible I got him mixed up with Vasturia. They're about the same height and build, and on TV sometimes it's hard to distinguish unless you get a close-up of their faces.

Plumlee did guard Connaughton a couple of times, but we were switching on screens quite often. He did also spend a good amount of his time on Vasturia too.

[Kedsy]

And this gets back to the "poise" issue. As jv001 said (and I think Coach K was alluding to earlier in the season), when we make shots we look poised. But it is when things go a bit awry that we frequently don't look poised.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but my point is we lost our poise after just one missed shot. Before that miss, we'd made 8 of our previous 11 shots, which if poise was tied to misses you'd think would have us on the plus side. It seemed to be just the circumstance of panic when a 10 point lead dropped to 4, and nobody seemed to grasp that these days a 10 point lead is nothing.

[CDu]

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but my point is we lost our poise after just one missed shot. Before that miss, we'd made 8 of our previous 11 shots, which if poise was tied to misses you'd think would have us on the plus side. It seemed to be just the circumstance of panic when a 10 point lead dropped to 4, and nobody seemed to grasp that these days a 10 point lead is nothing.

And this all is consistent with my later point in that same post, which is that we seem to easily lose our poise.

We made a big run to get the 10 point lead, in which we were getting stops. Then, they get a make and we miss and they score, and suddenly we're shaken. That was my point: we were rattled pretty easily.