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burnspbesq
01-22-2015, 10:10 AM
Duke travels to Chestnut Hill to take on the Eagles (8-10, 0-5 ACC). No TV, as far as I can tell; however, the game is listed as a free event on EagleVision, BC's in-house media outlet.

burnspbesq
01-22-2015, 06:50 PM
BC video feed is up and running, and based on a quick look at the scoreboard, it looks like Amber is getting another start.

burnspbesq
01-22-2015, 08:55 PM
Dismal. Awful. Brain-dead. Didn't do anything well. Yuck.

CameronBornAndBred
01-22-2015, 08:55 PM
Disappointing. Women go basically scoreless over the last three minutes while BC drains threes from outside to earn their first ACC win.

burnspbesq
01-22-2015, 09:03 PM
Disappointing. Women go basically scoreless over the last three minutes while BC drains threes from outside to earn their first ACC win.

At least the last three were contested, unlike most of the rest of BC's threes.

Did I mention the horrible clock and game management down the stretch?

CameronBornAndBred
01-22-2015, 09:06 PM
At least the last three were contested, unlike most of the rest of BC's threes.

Did I mention the horrible clock and game management down the stretch?
The last minutes completely perplexed me. I've been a Coach P supporter for a long time, but my confidence is wavering. This shouldn't even have been a close game; I dread reading her post game comments. I would like to see her hold herself accountable.

Duvall
01-22-2015, 09:16 PM
This is hard to watch.

AIM4excellence
01-22-2015, 09:38 PM
The last minutes completely perplexed me. I've been a Coach P supporter for a long time, but my confidence is wavering. This shouldn't even have been a close game; I dread reading her post game comments. I would like to see her hold herself accountable.

Hope you're not holding your breath. You'll be Duke blue and cold as ice before that happens.

Post game comment by Coach McCallie were that the players decided after a fast start that BC wasn't very good and they didn't need to respect them. Ahem. It has nothing to do with the fact that the players do what the coach tells them to and that is the problem? On defense, four teams in a row have shot more three pt shots than 2 pt shots. And a majority of them continue to be wide open. On offense, dribble around, throw it into a heavily defended EWill. Oops. Another turnover. Quelle surprise. Azura is the only one who doesn't/can't fit the mold. She's a good 5 inches taller than most defenders, often more. There's not too many bad shots for her to take so she doesn't have to pass it to EWill, she can shoot.

And if the players aren't hustling, well, that's the coach's job to correct.

CharlestonDave
01-22-2015, 09:40 PM
I am not a big follower of woman's basketball. I do look in the NY Times to check out the scores and on the ESPN website. .

So my question to the knowledgable Duke Woman's basketball followers is why ?

Why is the team doing so poorly ? I read for the past few years that Duke has gotten top recruiting classes, is it the coach; are the players overrated ?

Thank you for any answers.

burnspbesq
01-22-2015, 09:49 PM
The mismanagement of the endgame was appalling.

IIRC, BC got the ball with right around a minute to go, up four. Duke had to give five fouls in order to put BC at the line. That shouldn't take more than about eight seconds. You go full-court man-to-man, and immediately hack whoever receives the inbounds pass. Lather, rinse, repeat, 5x. It took Duke close to 45 seconds to commit five fouls.

AIM4excellence
01-22-2015, 10:25 PM
I am not a big follower of woman's basketball. I do look in the NY Times to check out the scores and on the ESPN website. .

So my question to the knowledgable Duke Woman's basketball followers is why ?

Why is the team doing so poorly ? I read for the past few years that Duke has gotten top recruiting classes, is it the coach; are the players overrated ?

Thank you for any answers.

Well, I've followed the women's team since before Coach G arrived and took the program to great heights. When McCallie was hired, my buddies and I looked at each other and said "how long will her tractor offense last here?" The answer is the slow, plodding, predictable offense of throwing it into a heavily covered post player has not changed in 8 years. The tractor offense will be here as long as McCallie is here. No matter how highly rated a player is coming in, they have to completely adapt their game to the unchanging system. The system isn't tweaked to take advantage of a player's special talent.

I've watched players during the games in person until I stopped attending games in person. At some point, you can see them hit the wall where they realize that "this is it...and it's not getting better." Different players respond to this differently and some have gotten kicked off the team or left of their own volition. Some start playing their own way and stop getting any playing time. Some are content, like that infamous experiment in obedience, to follow instructions and keep doing what they're told to do even when it clearly isn't working.

And we still don't know any details about frosh starter Sierra Calhoun's sudden decision to leave Duke. That's a very hard thing for team chemistry - much harder than losing a player to injury. That's two years in a row a frosh has left at the end of their first semester.

Des Esseintes
01-23-2015, 02:19 AM
Well, I've followed the women's team since before Coach G arrived and took the program to great heights. When McCallie was hired, my buddies and I looked at each other and said "how long will her tractor offense last here?" The answer is the slow, plodding, predictable offense of throwing it into a heavily covered post player has not changed in 8 years. The tractor offense will be here as long as McCallie is here. No matter how highly rated a player is coming in, they have to completely adapt their game to the unchanging system. The system isn't tweaked to take advantage of a player's special talent.

I've watched players during the games in person until I stopped attending games in person. At some point, you can see them hit the wall where they realize that "this is it...and it's not getting better." Different players respond to this differently and some have gotten kicked off the team or left of their own volition. Some start playing their own way and stop getting any playing time. Some are content, like that infamous experiment in obedience, to follow instructions and keep doing what they're told to do even when it clearly isn't working.

And we still don't know any details about frosh starter Sierra Calhoun's sudden decision to leave Duke. That's a very hard thing for team chemistry - much harder than losing a player to injury. That's two years in a row a frosh has left at the end of their first semester.
And here I thought the usual jeremiad against the coaching staff would be enough. But no. We gotta throw in some gratuitous insults against the players. For what, exactly? Following instructions?

Duvall
01-23-2015, 11:49 AM
We gotta throw in some gratuitous insults against the players. For what, exactly? Following instructions?

Yeah, I don't think it's fair to criticize Duke players for prioritizing staying at Duke and getting a Duke degree over maximizing their college basketball experience.

Kfanarmy
01-23-2015, 12:00 PM
I didn't really see any insults of Duke players upthread...which post/comment is the problem?

grossbus
01-23-2015, 01:18 PM
"I've been a Coach P supporter for a long time, but my confidence is wavering. "

mine is gone. i think she gots to go.

sagegrouse
01-23-2015, 01:27 PM
"I've been a Coach P supporter for a long time, but my confidence is wavering. "

mine is gone. i think she gots to go.

Hi, Gross Bus! Ya' heading to the big reunion this year? Don't answer on-line -- it might be incriminating.

I find it touching that the thread title hasn't been changed to show the score of the game, as if "we have to have SOME secrets."

CameronBornAndBred
01-23-2015, 02:21 PM
Decent breakdown of the game here.

http://bcheights.com/sports/2015/bc-duke-womens-basketball-eagles-upset-duke/

Duvall
01-23-2015, 04:07 PM
"I've been a Coach P supporter for a long time, but my confidence is wavering. "

mine is gone. i think she gots to go.

When has Duke ever fired a coach that regularly earned postseason berths, in any sport?

devildeac
01-23-2015, 04:22 PM
When has Duke ever fired a coach that regularly earned postseason berths, in any sport?

Maybe 2006.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Pressler

CameronBornAndBred
01-23-2015, 05:02 PM
When has Duke ever fired a coach that regularly earned postseason berths, in any sport?
There has to come a time when you compare expectation with results. With the number of amazing classes that Duke has had, and the lack of NCAA tourney success, tossed in with the questionable transfers of valuable players AND coaches, a close inspection of the program starting from the top down is validated. I'm not advocating firing her (yet), but there has to be some scrutiny.

AIM4excellence
01-23-2015, 05:03 PM
I didn't really see any insults of Duke players upthread...which post/comment is the problem?

I think it was an attempt to take a shot at me when I hadn't intended any insult to Duke players. Plenty of people choose obedience to authority all the time, when there's no clear gain to be made from bucking orders. I think most people here are aware that I stand behind the players and trust that they make decisions based on what feels best to them.

NSDukeFan
01-23-2015, 05:53 PM
There has to come a time when you compare expectation with results. With the number of amazing classes that Duke has had, and the lack of NCAA tourney success, tossed in with the questionable transfers of valuable players AND coaches, a close inspection of the program starting from the top down is validated. I'm not advocating firing her (yet), but there has to be some scrutiny.

What's more important? Being a good recruiter or being a good coach to the players that have been recruited. Ideally, you are good at both, and success at the second may help with recruiting, but I think recruiting success may be more important.

GGLC
01-23-2015, 06:05 PM
What's more important? Being a good recruiter or being a good coach to the players that have been recruited. Ideally, you are good at both, and success at the second may help with recruiting, but I think recruiting success may be more important.

Even highly ranked players will find more success in schemes that complement and enhance their skillsets. Conversely, the value of lower-ranked players can be maximized by playing in a system that emphasizes their strengths and downplays their weaknesses. See, e.g., Butler.

CameronBornAndBred
01-23-2015, 06:26 PM
What's more important? Being a good recruiter or being a good coach to the players that have been recruited. Ideally, you are good at both, and success at the second may help with recruiting, but I think recruiting success may be more important.
I agree it can be an asset, (and agree overall with your post), but it's hard to watch class after class not reach the pinnacle that they should. Champions? Not necessarily, but at least one of Coach P's teams SHOULD be in the Final Four by now, and it hasn't happened. (And it should not even be "at least one", it should be multiple visits at this point.) They've had the talent, the potential, but I don't think they've had the coaching. It's one thing to win the ACC tourney, which she has done awesomely time and time again, but teams that have proven themselves on that stage should have made it to at least the last 4 standing. Something isn't working.

burnspbesq
01-23-2015, 06:44 PM
Plenty of people choose obedience to authority all the time, when there's no clear gain to be made from bucking orders.

That's either an ad hominem attack or utterly irrelevant. Which is it?

AIM4excellence
01-23-2015, 07:25 PM
That's either an ad hominem attack or utterly irrelevant. Which is it?

A claim was made by a poster that I had somehow criticized the players by saying they were obedient in following what they were told to do. I had not meant anything of a negative nature towards the players and was simply explaining that fact. There's always a cost of not falling in line. The potential payoff has to be greater for any person to be willing to accept the cost. No need to go out on a negative tangent on this. I agree that the original post that claimed I was attacking the players was irrelevant and simply followed a personal agenda.

As an aside, that phrase "ad hominem" is used a lot more here than anywhere else I frequent. It's used as the ultimate put-down. And usually used incorrectly.

NSDukeFan
01-23-2015, 08:23 PM
Even highly ranked players will find more success in schemes that complement and enhance their skillsets. Conversely, the value of lower-ranked players can be maximized by playing in a system that emphasizes their strengths and downplays their weaknesses. See, e.g., Butler.

I don't disagree with anything you say, which is why I said that ideally a coach would be good or great at both. I agree very much that a strong coach can coach up his lower ranked players to beat higher ranked ones, but I think it is harder for a better coach to beat a team with better players than for an inferior coach to beat a team with weaker players.

GGLC
01-23-2015, 08:26 PM
I don't disagree with anything you say, which is why I said that ideally a coach would be good or great at both. I agree very much that a strong coach can coach up his lower ranked players to beat higher ranked ones, but I think it is harder for a better coach to beat a team with better players than for an inferior coach to beat a team with weaker players.

...and we just lost to Boston College, previously 0-5 in the ACC.

DukeDevilDeb
01-23-2015, 08:31 PM
There has to come a time when you compare expectation with results. With the number of amazing classes that Duke has had, and the lack of NCAA tourney success, tossed in with the questionable transfers of valuable players AND coaches, a close inspection of the program starting from the top down is validated. I'm not advocating firing her (yet), but there has to be some scrutiny.

All you need to do is take a walk along Coach K court and count the banners on the women's side. Nothing has gone up since Coach G's departure. I'm not saying that it was her leaving that caused the program to tank... although I think she was a pretty good recruiter and coach. But she never won a National Championship with some really outstanding players either. My eyes spin back into my head when I think of the infamous Maryland 3 pointer that stabbed through the hearts of Blue Devil fans everywhere.

I just went to http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=873345 to see Coach P's record. On paper, she has done really well... the women's team went to the Elite Eight in 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013 (I'm ignoring Michigan State games). Given our men's team's recent NCAA record, that actually looks very good. But she's only been to the Final Four / Championship Game once (2005) with Michigan State.

I'm conflicted over the criticisms posted here. Some of them are 100% correct; others seem petty. But the fact is, the women's side of the banners hanging in Cameron has had NOTHING put up since 2005... Coach K says it is all about championships. If that's true, maybe we need a new women's coach.

-jk
01-23-2015, 09:06 PM
All you need to do is take a walk along Coach K court and count the banners on the women's side. Nothing has gone up since Coach G's departure. I'm not saying that it was her leaving that caused the program to tank... although I think she was a pretty good recruiter and coach. But she never won a National Championship with some really outstanding players either. My eyes spin back into my head when I think of the infamous Maryland 3 pointer that stabbed through the hearts of Blue Devil fans everywhere.

I just went to http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=873345 to see Coach P's record. On paper, she has done really well... the women's team went to the Elite Eight in 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013 (I'm ignoring Michigan State games). Given our men's team's recent NCAA record, that actually looks very good. But she's only been to the Final Four / Championship Game once (2005) with Michigan State.

I'm conflicted over the criticisms posted here. Some of them are 100% correct; others seem petty. But the fact is, the women's side of the banners hanging in Cameron has had NOTHING put up since 2005... Coach K says it is all about championships. If that's true, maybe we need a new women's coach.

Comparing results doesn't get us very far, especially if we look at G's results at Texas. Coaching big time ball is hard! (Though I do miss G's offense. It was pretty!)

-jk

cspan37421
01-23-2015, 09:40 PM
Tom Butters renewed Coach K's contract despite a losing record over 3 years ... why? Well, IIRC Coach K had brought in a great, great class that was already on campus - not so good results, but they were all so young, they would get better. He probably already knew that Coach K had playmaker Amaker coming the following year, as well. If Coach K hadn't been proven to be a stud recruiter, and a then-young man of impeccable character, perhaps after 3 years of mediocrity he might have been shown the door. But the bus was pointed in the right direction ... they were on their way, just had a ways to go.

The question is, is the WBB program pointed in the right direction now? On paper she's produced a lot of wins, and often dominated the ACC. She's had success in conference, though not broken through to the Final Four. She's had success recruiting ... but also has experience players opting to leave, or even just no longer play (from what I read here). There was a small drop in last year's results, and this year seems to be heading for a bigger drop. Is the bus heading in the right direction? I'm not so sure.

Kedsy
01-23-2015, 09:55 PM
I agree it can be an asset, (and agree overall with your post), but it's hard to watch class after class not reach the pinnacle that they should. Champions? Not necessarily, but at least one of Coach P's teams SHOULD be in the Final Four by now, and it hasn't happened. (And it should not even be "at least one", it should be multiple visits at this point.) They've had the talent, the potential, but I don't think they've had the coaching. It's one thing to win the ACC tourney, which she has done awesomely time and time again, but teams that have proven themselves on that stage should have made it to at least the last 4 standing. Something isn't working.

I don't entirely agree. If you don't like Coach P because she does press conferences poorly, or because we've had a lot of transfers (although has the women's team really had more transfers than the men's team over the past 8 years?), or because you don't like P's personality or offensive style, then fine, I won't argue. But in each of the past three seasons, at least one of our best players has been injured for the NCAAT. In that light, going to four straight Elite Eights and winning all those ACC championships is actually quite an accomplishment.

Honestly, I don't understand why people don't get this. When Kyrie got hurt -- and he came back -- did people really blame Coach K for not getting to the Final Four? I don't think so. Our women's team has been hit with more or less the same level of of injury three years in a row! That has to change the math when counting how many Final Fours you expected, or at least how many you could reasonably have expected.

Kedsy
01-23-2015, 10:08 PM
Also, personally I find it a little bit ridiculous that after every single loss, a fair number of people around here think it's reasonable to discuss whether one of the winningest coaches in her sport should be fired.

Tappan Zee Devil
01-23-2015, 10:38 PM
Also, personally I find it a little bit ridiculous that after every single loss, a fair number of people around here think it's reasonable to discuss whether one of the winningest coaches in her sport should be fired.

…and same people tend to disappear after a win

uh_no
01-23-2015, 10:49 PM
…and same people tend to disappear after a win

and everybody makes the same arguments for both sides all the time! it's so jolly!

Tappan Zee Devil
01-23-2015, 11:03 PM
and everybody makes the same arguments for both sides all the time! it's so jolly!

Yes, indeed - That does seem to be the pattern.

Des Esseintes
01-24-2015, 03:35 AM
A claim was made by a poster that I had somehow criticized the players by saying they were obedient in following what they were told to do. I had not meant anything of a negative nature towards the players and was simply explaining that fact. There's always a cost of not falling in line. The potential payoff has to be greater for any person to be willing to accept the cost. No need to go out on a negative tangent on this. I agree that the original post that claimed I was attacking the players was irrelevant and simply followed a personal agenda.

As an aside, that phrase "ad hominem" is used a lot more here than anywhere else I frequent. It's used as the ultimate put-down. And usually used incorrectly.
Let's take a trip down memory lane to the faraway land of one page ago.


I've watched players during the games in person until I stopped attending games in person. At some point, you can see them hit the wall where they realize that "this is it...and it's not getting better." Different players respond to this differently and some have gotten kicked off the team or left of their own volition. Some start playing their own way and stop getting any playing time. Some are content, like that infamous experiment in obedience, to follow instructions and keep doing what they're told to do even when it clearly isn't working.
So, for those keeping score at home, you declared that players who followed the coaching staff's instructions were "content" to behave like subjects from the Milgram (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment) experiment. Y'know, the one in which people administered what they thought were lethal shocks to strangers in another room. Y'know, the experiment consciously designed to see how many people had a little Eichmann in them. But you meant no insult to those players. Perish the thought and a pox on any who would so misconstrue your generous words.

dudog84
01-24-2015, 09:44 AM
Oh for Pete’s sake. Talk about insufferable fans. I’m not saying you can’t say anything bad about Duke teams, coaches, or players (although maybe you should go to IC if you want to do that), but at least have the decency to know what the Hell you’re talking about.

Where to start…yes that was a bad loss. Aren't we Dukies always arguing that point guard is the most important position on the floor? As listed on the goduke roster, we have a guard/forward running the point. Backed up by a junior college transfer. Personally, I'm saluting their effort.

Again, a bad loss. But by my count, that’s Coach P’s third loss to an unranked team in the past four and a half years. So let’s fire her. How asinine.

And please just stop with the mythification (I know, I made the word up) of Coach G. I appreciate every little thing she did for this program. But enough already. She had her share of bad losses. And if you think she even sniffs the Final Four if any of these players go down to injury…Van Gorp in 1999, Beard in 2002 or 2003, Currie in 2006…then I’m laughing in your face.

In another thread, a poster wrote “Duke won almost half the games against UConn under Coach G. At that point, UConn had vastly superior talent to Duke and it was clear to many of us that Coach G "out coached" Geno in the wins. She also "out coached" Pat Summitt on multiple occasions…” What crap. Yeah Geno has owned Coach P. But he owns most coaches. He’s 258-13 the last 7 years (Coach P’s tenure) and has not missed a Final Four (and has 4 of his 9 national championships).

Back to the crap…Coach G beat Geno all of twice, and one of those times UConn was ranked #8 and Duke was ranked #4 (we smashed them by 2 points in overtime). The other time UConn #1 and Duke #4 (the awesome 3 by Jessica Foley to win by 1 point). “vastly superior talent” my... And Coach G was 5-4 against Summitt. Coach P was 1-1 against Summit. Big deal.

As far as the terrible offense, the last 3 years (Chelsea & company, the first great recruiting class, as sophomores or better) the field goal percentage has averaged .476. The last 3 years of Coach G’s tenure it was .472. Not enough for you? The last 10 years of Coach G it was .469. Enough already.

To the great recruiting. Yeah we’ve had some great recruiting classes that have raised expectations. I count 2010, 2013, 2014, and 2015 as good deep classes. 2011 was mostly Elizabeth Williams, 2012 mostly Alexis Jones. Note that 2 of those 4 classes are freshmen and sophomores and another hasn’t even shown up yet. And every single one of our Top 10 recruits (save Elizabeth) has had a season-ending injury…Chelsea, Richa, Amber, Alexis, Becca (missed first year due to high school injury), Lynee. And I’m pretty sure Elizabeth has had nagging injuries the past 2 years. Do you honestly think any coach makes the Final Four without his/her top players? See above. Again, I laugh in your face.

And though great classes, we have never had a consensus #1 recruit. A Maya Moore, Britney Griner, Breanna Stewart. Elizabeth was close, but by ESPN she was #2 to Kaleena Mosqueda-Lewis (UConn). Alexis was #3, behind Breanna Stewart and Moriah Jefferson (both to UConn). Seeing a trend here? Becca was #6. Azura, who looks phenomenal, was #23. Two recruiting services had her ranked in the 50s! Has Coach P turned her into this star? What a concept! So yeah, recruiting is not a science. And it seems to me that the very top players dominate in women’s basketball much more so than in men’s.

No banners? Then they’re not hanging them for ACC Championships for the women. Coach P has 3 of them. And has only missed one final in her time here. If you think this program has “tanked”…, wow. I’m not going to say what I’m thinking.

This is an extremely young team. Our players appear to be outstanding young women. Elizabeth is pre-med! They deserve your support.

Finally, re Sierra Calhoun. When are you going to get it through your thick skull that if neither Duke, or more importantly Sierra herself, want to give you the details, it’s none of your dang business?

Mods, if that last comment is over the line I apologize and will accept the discipline. I am just fed up with the incessant harping and sense of entitlement.

aswewere
01-24-2015, 10:31 AM
Oh for Pete’s sake. Talk about insufferable fans. I’m not saying you can’t say anything bad about Duke teams, coaches, or players (although maybe you should go to IC if you want to do that), but at least have the decency to know what the Hell you’re talking about.

Where to start…yes that was a bad loss. Aren't we Dukies always arguing that point guard is the most important position on the floor? As listed on the goduke roster, we have a guard/forward running the point. Backed up by a junior college transfer. Personally, I'm saluting their effort.

Again, a bad loss. But by my count, that’s Coach P’s third loss to an unranked team in the past four and a half years. So let’s fire her. How asinine.

And please just stop with the mythification (I know, I made the word up) of Coach G. I appreciate every little thing she did for this program. But enough already. She had her share of bad losses. And if you think she even sniffs the Final Four if any of these players go down to injury…Van Gorp in 1999, Beard in 2002 or 2003, Currie in 2006…then I’m laughing in your face.

In another thread, a poster wrote “Duke won almost half the games against UConn under Coach G. At that point, UConn had vastly superior talent to Duke and it was clear to many of us that Coach G "out coached" Geno in the wins. She also "out coached" Pat Summitt on multiple occasions…” What crap. Yeah Geno has owned Coach P. But he owns most coaches. He’s 258-13 the last 7 years (Coach P’s tenure) and has not missed a Final Four (and has 4 of his 9 national championships).

Back to the crap…Coach G beat Geno all of twice, and one of those times UConn was ranked #8 and Duke was ranked #4 (we smashed them by 2 points in overtime). The other time UConn #1 and Duke #4 (the awesome 3 by Jessica Foley to win by 1 point). “vastly superior talent” my... And Coach G was 5-4 against Summitt. Coach P was 1-1 against Summit. Big deal.

As far as the terrible offense, the last 3 years (Chelsea & company, the first great recruiting class, as sophomores or better) the field goal percentage has averaged .476. The last 3 years of Coach G’s tenure it was .472. Not enough for you? The last 10 years of Coach G it was .469. Enough already.

To the great recruiting. Yeah we’ve had some great recruiting classes that have raised expectations. I count 2010, 2013, 2014, and 2015 as good deep classes. 2011 was mostly Elizabeth Williams, 2012 mostly Alexis Jones. Note that 2 of those 4 classes are freshmen and sophomores and another hasn’t even shown up yet. And every single one of our Top 10 recruits (save Elizabeth) has had a season-ending injury…Chelsea, Richa, Amber, Alexis, Becca (missed first year due to high school injury), Lynee. And I’m pretty sure Elizabeth has had nagging injuries the past 2 years. Do you honestly think any coach makes the Final Four without his/her top players? See above. Again, I laugh in your face.

And though great classes, we have never had a consensus #1 recruit. A Maya Moore, Britney Griner, Breanna Stewart. Elizabeth was close, but by ESPN she was #2 to Kaleena Mosqueda-Lewis (UConn). Alexis was #3, behind Breanna Stewart and Moriah Jefferson (both to UConn). Seeing a trend here? Becca was #6. Azura, who looks phenomenal, was #23. Two recruiting services had her ranked in the 50s! Has Coach P turned her into this star? What a concept! So yeah, recruiting is not a science. And it seems to me that the very top players dominate in women’s basketball much more so than in men’s.

No banners? Then they’re not hanging them for ACC Championships for the women. Coach P has 3 of them. And has only missed one final in her time here. If you think this program has “tanked”…, wow. I’m not going to say what I’m thinking.

This is an extremely young team. Our players appear to be outstanding young women. Elizabeth is pre-med! They deserve your support.

Finally, re Sierra Calhoun. When are you going to get it through your thick skull that if neither Duke, or more importantly Sierra herself, want to give you the details, it’s none of your dang business?

Mods, if that last comment is over the line I apologize and will accept the discipline. I am just fed up with the incessant harping and sense of entitlement.

Wow what a relief to find out that no changes are needed in Coach P program. I think about 80% of the fan base can use
your wisdom in these matters.

Bob Green
01-24-2015, 10:37 AM
Let's keep it civil folks.


Incivility. You are free to disagree with other posters; all we ask that you respectfully disagree. Challenge the content of the post: point out flaws in their logic, dispute facts, or counter the argument respectfully. Attacking the poster by being snarky, name-calling, or engaging in a flame war is not tolerated. Avoid "gotcha" posts.

AIM4excellence
01-24-2015, 08:02 PM
Following the loss to previously winless Boston College, Duke's current winning percentage for the season is 66.7%. In the ACC, Duke is tied with 3 teams for 5th place, with four teams tied for 1st place. The two games with UNC and games v Louisville and Notre Dame will be pivotal as well as winning remaining games against the bottom half of the league. The impact of three players transferring out in the last two years is significantly affecting the results. Obviously, though, last season's season-ending injury to Alexis Jones made it unlikely she could have played much, if at all, this season and this preceded her decision to transfer out.

This year's team will likely start ACC tournament play a day earlier than usual if they finish outside the top 4. And, unless they stomp UNC tomorrow, Duke is likely to fall out of the top 20 in the AP Poll that comes out Monday.

This Duke fan is looking forward to the day when our program returns to the elite of the ACC and the country. It seems that some here are content with what we have, while many of us who've been attending games for many years, even decades, have stopped attending home games. Different strokes for different folks.

OldPhiKap
01-24-2015, 09:06 PM
Let me start wih the positive: it is great to see such passion for the WBB team as is displayed on this thread. We all have the same goal -- the best Duke WBB program possible.

Pause.

As to the merits, I will first admit that y'all follow the team much closer than I do. To summarize the two major views, in general terms and without elbows, some think we have maintained the "standard" G brought (vastly improved, but still behind UConn/Tenn) while some feel that the current program has either slid or has troublesome clouds building. I have no insight into that. What I DO know, though, is that Kevin White is one of the premier AD's in the business and that he knows what institutions such as ours demand. And even a very casual fan like me knows that every school is behind UConn, who is like UCLA was under Wooden a generation ago. So arguing over who got spanked less worse is not a real measuring stick. WBB is nowhere near parity like MBB.

I am confident that if there are problems,can't that there is a better fit out there, our AD will make that move. I am also confident that if he decides (on knowledge far superior to mine) that a change should be made, he will make the move.

Anyway, I'll end where I started -- better to have knowledgeable folks be passionate about the issue, than no one giving a flip. See football, Duke, 1995-2008.

Oh, almost forgot -- Go to Hell, Carolina. Let's Go Duke!

AIM4excellence
01-24-2015, 09:57 PM
Let me start wih the positive: it is great to see such passion for the WBB team as is displayed on this thread. We all have the same goal -- the best Duke WBB program possible.

Pause.

As to the merits, I will first admit that y'all follow the team much closer than I do. To summarize the two major views, in general terms and without elbows, some think we have maintained the "standard" G brought (vastly improved, but still behind UConn/Tenn) while some feel that the current program has either slid or has troublesome clouds building. I have no insight into that. What I DO know, though, is that Kevin White is one of the premier AD's in the business and that he knows what institutions such as ours demand. And even a very casual fan like me knows that every school is behind UConn, who is like UCLA was under Wooden a generation ago. So arguing over who got spanked less worse is not a real measuring stick. WBB is nowhere near parity like MBB.

I am confident that if there are problems,can't that there is a better fit out there, our AD will make that move. I am also confident that if he decides (on knowledge far superior to mine) that a change should be made, he will make the move.

Anyway, I'll end where I started -- better to have knowledgeable folks be passionate about the issue, than no one giving a flip. See football, Duke, 1995-2008.

Oh, almost forgot -- Go to Hell, Carolina. Let's Go Duke!

Thanks for your acknowledgement that we are passionate about the program and that it's a good thing.

During Coach G's tenure, Duke went from going to the tournament 1 time to going every year. During G's tenure, we beat UConn and Tennessee and were discussed regularly as a team favored for the NC, or at least the Final Four. We succeeded very well in getting to the FF regularly. Games vs UConn, Tennessee and UNC were regularly sold out as opposing fans felt they "had to" attend as the outcome was nowhere near being determined. In all these ways, the program has declined to a lesser tier.

Is it good enough for Duke? That's the subject of all the debate. It is very hard for the AD to make a change with so much $$ left on a contract of a coach of a non-revenue generating program. After a whole slew of top 3 recruiting classes has brought us nowhere near back to elite status, I have no hope that the next one will either. The days of lining up outside to get a decent seat for a UConn game are over for now. Ending the series was just a postscript.

It seems that fewer people want to pay to attend games in which Duke wins 80% against mostly over-matched opponents but rarely comes close to beating a top 5 team. That's a fact that nobody can deny.

Henderson
01-25-2015, 11:51 AM
I hope we never get to a situation in which the tenure of a Duke coach is dependant on performance against other teams. Poor performance may be an indicator of other problems, and if the coaching is poor, get a better coach if you can. But if Duke becomes another school where the sole metric is winning games, I'll be disappointed. There's a lot more going on.

That's not an endorsement of Coach P. Her comments after UConn and the recent transfer give me pause about a coach I've supported and still support. But those strike me as more legitimate issues than numbers. If the former is affecting the latter, it raises quesions, but not the W-L thing.

dudog84
01-25-2015, 01:02 PM
In this thread alone there have been calls for the firing of a Duke coach that has won 3 of the last 5 ACC Championships. Distortion of the record of a Duke program (no banners – see aforementioned championships – that while factually may be true since I have not been in Cameron in decades, it is certainly misleading and denigrating). Yet more innuendo about transfers when a poster on a previous thread showed that there have been no more transfers than under the previous coach. And most despicable of all, attribution of statements to a Duke coach that were never made.

“Post game comment by Coach McCallie were (sic) that the players decided after a fast start that BC wasn't very good and they didn't need to respect them.”

I have watched the post-game press conference (3X), read the accounts in goduke, herald-sun, dukechronicle, dwhoops, espn, bcheights (that another poster was nice enough to link), bceagles (official site), and finally googled “Duke coach P McCallie Boston College respect” looking for this. NOTHING. She said nothing of the sort. Nothing even close.

This is unconscionable. Especially for a Duke board.

This is not reasonable discussion and debate.

So when people come on here to spew their bile and lies, I’m going to respond. DBR is a great site and I believe one of the main sources of information about Duke sports. A casual reader would read this crap and think the team and program were in shambles. I think any reasonable reading of the FACTS would show that they are not.

jimsumner
01-26-2015, 11:50 PM
Well, I believe Chris Carrawell was one of them, but he's hardly a ""Duke alum NBA millionaire," since I'm pretty sure he never played in the NBA. I'm not sure who the other "K alum" was who worked for Coach P -- did he ever play in the NBA?

And when you say you "[weren't] assuming anything," are you trying to suggest these people's disdain for Coach P matches your own? Because considering your constant harping on her, unless you know these guys very well, that seems like an assumption to me.

Robert Brickey also coached for McCallie and no, he's not a millionaire.

I find this whole thread more than a little disquieting, fwiw. Lots of insinuations, lots of gossip, not that much substance.

FWIW, I've sat in a lot of post-game press conferences and I've never thought McCallie was any more or less prone to throw her players under the metaphorical bus than the next guy or gal.

And yes, some people don't like her. Goes with the job description.

But let's assume, for the sake of argument, that the insinuations are correct and McCallie is not a nice person. Or that the on-court success of the women's program is in a downward spiral from which it will not recover under her leadership.

How likely is it that message-board posters know this and the Duke hierarchy does not? Duke has one of the most respected athletic directors in the country. Is Kevin White blind to these perceived flaws? Does he not care? Is he not on top of this? Or does he possibly have accurate information not available to most of us, a more credible reading of the situation than that of an aggrieved portion of the fan base?

I understand calling for a change if a program is not competitive on the court/field/track/links, whatever. I understand calls for a change if a coach is guilty of significant ethical violations.

Neither seems to be the case here. I haven't agreed with every single move she's made or every public statement she's made, not by a long shot. Perhaps Duke could do better. But I think it's a lot more likely Duke could do worse.

Kedsy
01-26-2015, 11:56 PM
Robert Brickey also coached for McCallie and no, he's not a millionaire.

I find this whole thread more than a little disquieting, fwiw. Lots of insinuations, lots of gossip, not that much substance.

FWIW, I've sat in a lot of post-game press conferences and I've never thought McCallie was any more or less prone to throw her players under the metaphorical bus than the next guy or gal.

And yes, some people don't like her. Goes with the job description.

But let's assume, for the sake of argument, that the insinuations are correct and McCallie is not a nice person. Or that the on-court success of the women's program is in a downward spiral from which it will not recover under her leadership.

How likely is it that message-board posters know this and the Duke hierarchy does not? Duke has one of the most respected athletic directors in the country. Is Kevin White blind to these perceived flaws? Does he not care? Is he not on top of this? Or does he possibly have accurate information not available to most of us, a more credible reading of the situation than that of an aggrieved portion of the fan base?

I understand calling for a change if a program is not competitive on the court/field/track/links, whatever. I understand calls for a change if a coach is guilty of significant ethical violations.

Neither seems to be the case here. I haven't agreed with every single move she's made or every public statement she's made, not by a long shot. Perhaps Duke could do better. But I think it's a lot more likely Duke could do worse.

Thanks, Jim, I completely agree. You made the point much more eloquently than I've been able to make it.

ohioguy2
01-27-2015, 09:20 AM
Robert Brickey also coached for McCallie and no, he's not a millionaire.

I find this whole thread more than a little disquieting, fwiw. Lots of insinuations, lots of gossip, not that much substance.

FWIW, I've sat in a lot of post-game press conferences and I've never thought McCallie was any more or less prone to throw her players under the metaphorical bus than the next guy or gal.

And yes, some people don't like her. Goes with the job description.

But let's assume, for the sake of argument, that the insinuations are correct and McCallie is not a nice person. Or that the on-court success of the women's program is in a downward spiral from which it will not recover under her leadership.

How likely is it that message-board posters know this and the Duke hierarchy does not? Duke has one of the most respected athletic directors in the country. Is Kevin White blind to these perceived flaws? Does he not care? Is he not on top of this? Or does he possibly have accurate information not available to most of us, a more credible reading of the situation than that of an aggrieved portion of the fan base?

I understand calling for a change if a program is not competitive on the court/field/track/links, whatever. I understand calls for a change if a coach is guilty of significant ethical violations.

Neither seems to be the case here. I haven't agreed with every single move she's made or every public statement she's made, not by a long shot. Perhaps Duke could do better. But I think it's a lot more likely Duke could do worse.

Thank you for a rational post to this seemingly endless debate.

DukieInKansas
01-27-2015, 09:49 AM
Just curious - does anyone remember that the women played a game after this one. And they won it. They beat that institution (can it be called a school?) down the road. I would suggest we should celebrate the team's success and quit beating this dead horse until after the season is over.

sagegrouse
01-27-2015, 09:54 AM
Just curious - does anyone remember that the women played a game after this one. And they won it. They beat that institution (can it be called a school?) down the road. I would suggest we should celebrate the team's success and quit beating this dead horse until after the season is over.

If I heard the broadcast correctly, Duke had won eight of the last ten UNC games. Now it's nine of eleven. That's pretty special.

devil84
01-27-2015, 10:44 AM
Name calling, bickering, and arguing between posters has no place on this board. Please keep it civil. Report posts that cross the line to moderators if you find them offensive.

There is lots of other behavior in this thread that was deleted that is in violation of the rules. Take a moment to read the Decorum thread stickied at the top of the EK board.

This thread is closed. Move along to other discussions, please.