Semi Annual "one and Done " Rant

[Dopeshop]

My enjoyment of Duke basketball has really been impacted by One and Done.

I so enjoyed watching players progress to Senior year,mature , become part of Duke lore,and on and on.

We can recall the hand wringing we did about Lance Thomas and Brian Zoubek for three years .Lo and behold ,they find their roles , embrace them ,start and win a NC.

I'll never feel the same about Irving,Rivers ,Parker ,et.al.They are a part of the Duke program for 5 months (Oct --- March).I's a real stretch to suggest any kind of loyalty and commitment can be developed for Duke ,the coaches , Teammates
and the Duke BBall tradition.

I know it is all controlled by the NBA and we will never have the baseball rule (after Junior year to MLB ) ,but all of it makes me grumpy ....

[Duke3517]

I'm staying out of it.

[MCFinARL]

My enjoyment of Duke basketball has really been impacted by One and Done.

I so enjoyed watching players progress to Senior year,mature , become part of Duke lore,and on and on.

We can recall the hand wringing we did about Lance Thomas and Brian Zoubek for three years .Lo and behold ,they find their roles , embrace them ,start and win a NC.

I'll never feel the same about Irving,Rivers ,Parker ,et.al.They are a part of the Duke program for 5 months (Oct --- March).I's a real stretch to suggest any kind of loyalty and commitment can be developed for Duke ,the coaches , Teammates
and the Duke BBall tradition.

I know it is all controlled by the NBA and we will never have the baseball rule (after Junior year to MLB ) ,but all of it makes me grumpy ....

Hey you kids! Get off my lawn!!

Seriously, leaving aside the question of feeling the same about specific players or loyalty, I share your general sentiment that college basketball, and Duke basketball specifically, is less satisfying to follow in the one and done era. But that and a few bucks will get us a cup of coffee. Change is hard.

[DukeDevilDeb]

Hey you kids! Get off my lawn!!

Seriously, leaving aside the question of feeling the same about specific players or loyalty, I share your general sentiment that college basketball, and Duke basketball specifically, is less satisfying to follow in the one and done era. But that and a few bucks will get us a cup of coffee. Change is hard.

Any chance that, after 4 "great" one and dones (Kyrie, Austin, Jabari, Jah) have led us to postseason nothingness, Coach K goes back to the previous strategy of getting near top-tier players who will stay and learn defense? This seems to be the Michigan State approach and, while they are having problems of their own this year, have had pretty good success in the last three years: 2012: Sweet Sixteen; 2013: Sweet Sixteen; 2014: Elite Eight. And you may remember that in 2010 (our NC year), they lost to Butler in the semis.

I only use Michigan State for comparison because Izzo has said, "No one and dones." Others' opinions really welcome.

[freshmanjs]

Any chance that, after 4 "great" one and dones (Kyrie, Austin, Jabari, Jah) have led us to postseason nothingness, Coach K goes back to the previous strategy of getting near top-tier players who will stay and learn defense? This seems to be the Michigan State approach and, while they are having problems of their own this year, have had pretty good success in the last three years: 2012: Sweet Sixteen; 2013: Sweet Sixteen; 2014: Elite Eight. And you may remember that in 2010 (our NC year), they lost to Butler in the semis.

I only use Michigan State for comparison because Izzo has said, "No one and dones." Others' opinions really welcome.

i don't think that was ever the strategy. coach k has always tried to recruit the best players he could get (that were a good fit with the program) and i suspect he will continue to do so.

it's not michigan state strategy either. they desperately wanted jabari parker for example.

[brevity]

My favorite player on this year's team is junior Amile Jefferson. I've followed his play since he was a freshman and expect to continue doing so through the end of his senior season. I'm not sure how any one-and-done player prevents other fans from doing the same.

[jdk]

My issue has been that the one-and-dones seem to get free reign to the detriment of the rest of the team. It seems to destroy any cohesion the team has. Nolan Smith was a NPOY candidate before Kyrie came back, and the Kyrie-less Blue Devils knocked the crap out of an elite-eight UNX in the Greensboro. The Austin Rivers team lead to Andre taking a year off, and more recently we've seen transfers of players who would have stayed four years when they lost playing time to one and dones (Alex, Semi, and the kid who went to Syracuse). Why can't a one and done be benched? Or pulled from the game? I don't know what the answer is, but the postseason results since 2011 haven't been great.

[freshmanjs]

Why can't a one and done be benched? Or pulled from the game? I don't know what the answer is, but the postseason results since 2011 haven't been great.

they can. austin rivers was benched.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I'm staying out of it.

You have a funny way of staying out of it.

I posted a similar sentiment in another thread earlier this week - watching a class of players develop and coalesce is definitely a more satisfying experience for the fan than watching Parker for a season or Kyrie for 8 games. Even watching as Mike Dunleavy grew (literally) before our eyes for three years was so much fun for die-hard fans.

I guess if we live in an era of one-and-dones, I would prefer that Duke is getting that elite level talent than not, but there's definitely a trade off beyond simply having to hit home runs on the recruiting trail every year.

[oldnavy]

My favorite player on this year's team is junior Amile Jefferson. I've followed his play since he was a freshman and expect to continue doing so through the end of his senior season. I'm not sure how any one-and-done player prevents other fans from doing the same.

To me the OAD are just one issue that impacts the game.

I don't like it, but I can deal with it.

However when you add in (my opinions not facts):

-Over calling and officiating of games which result in disjointed and spastic game flow...
-The NCAA and the hypocrisy and inconsistency...
-TV... over production (feels like I am watching a production of the Hunger Games instead of a college basketball game) and announcers who are borderline unbearable....
-Conference expansion for the sake of making money only... traditions lost or diluted (not playing NCSU but once a year, come on...)

The product is not as enjoyable to me as it was...

[Rich]

The Austin Rivers team lead to Andre taking a year off

While I don't disagree with the sentiments about OAD on this thread, and I've expressed in other threads that Coach K's defensive scheme lends itself to learning over years and not to a OAD player, I really don't think Austin Rivers or that team had anything to do with Andre taking a year off. That was a festering personal psychological issue that he had to come to grips with outside of Duke basketball.

[2008grad]

I agree, but unfortunately the landscape of the game has changed.

Over the years I've noticed (both when I go back to a game in Cameron and watching on TV) the cameron crazies are getting less crazy, which bums me out. I know many others have made this observation as well. I hypothesize that the one and done culture may have something to do with this decline. When you have watched a player develop, the fans become more invested--it becomes a more personalized experience--you cheer harder...louder.....

Now even professional sports have something that college is losing. Consistency with the name on the back of the jersey--it makes it fun. The packers are forever linked with Favre and Rodgers; Colts and Manning; Pats and Brady; Lakers and Kobe etc. These links are special. Duke with Laettner, Hill, Wojo, Redick, Battier, Williams, etc. I don't link guys like Parker and Irving with Duke in the same way--I see them as good players who happened to play for Duke.

But things change, and we adapt. In this case, it is too bad.

[Duvall]

Any chance that, after 4 "great" one and dones (Kyrie, Austin, Jabari, Jah) have led us to postseason nothingness, Coach K goes back to the previous strategy of getting near top-tier players who will stay and learn defense? This seems to be the Michigan State approach and, while they are having problems of their own this year, have had pretty good success in the last three years: 2012: Sweet Sixteen; 2013: Sweet Sixteen; 2014: Elite Eight. And you may remember that in 2010 (our NC year), they lost to Butler in the semis.

I only use Michigan State for comparison because Izzo has said, "No one and dones." Others' opinions really welcome.

That's not even close to being true. It would be more accurate to say that one and dones have said "No Izzos."

[BlueTeuf]

I probably should stay out of this as well...but I want to publicly disagree with a possible perception that this is a tired and worn out topic. OADs have changed the precepts for earning the staff's investment and the motivations of coaches in general.

1) I've often disagreed with how different the amount of leash certain payers are granted by Duke's coaching staff. OADs exacerbate this problem manyfold.
2) OAD's consign other players to becoming role players - and interferes with their potential
3) OADs interfere with the noble pursuit of building young adults. If before, a coach could say he was building men and chasing championships - now the balance has tilted toward chasing championships.

BlueTuef

[Kjeffrey]

My issue has been that the one-and-dones seem to get free reign to the detriment of the rest of the team. It seems to destroy any cohesion the team has. Nolan Smith was a NPOY candidate before Kyrie came back, and the Kyrie-less Blue Devils knocked the crap out of an elite-eight UNX in the Greensboro. The Austin Rivers team lead to Andre taking a year off, and more recently we've seen transfers of players who would have stayed four years when they lost playing time to one and dones (Alex, Semi, and the kid who went to Syracuse). Why can't a one and done be benched? Or pulled from the game? I don't know what the answer is, but the postseason results since 2011 haven't been great.

I completely agree with you. The leash of the top tier players seems to be much longer than for others. It certainly appears that poor defense by them is overlooked while others get yanked.

[FerryFor50]

Can we merge this thread into one of the 800 other threads on this "beaten to a pulp horse"?

[gurufrisbee]

One and Dones are bad for the sport. But that's not Duke's fault and Duke has to play within whatever system there is out there.

But I totally agree - no one and done ever feels like a true Duke player to me. I think this was the first year I ever really rooted much for Kyrie on the Cavs - and a lot of that was because of him being on Coach K's Team USA team this summer.

[Emerrick]

I just don't get the rule. What good is one year in college for anyone? If the kid is good enough to go pro early, let them - before college. Or make it mandatory that they stay 4 years. The former seems more reasonable for all. With either option at least we aren't caught in this teaser middle ground that really has no relevance other than some odd perception that playing one year is good for the ncaa. I agree with the previous poster regarding Nolan vs Kylie. This rule should be changed - you never want to be in the middle and that's where we are.

[freshmanjs]

I just don't get the rule. What good is one year in college for anyone? If the kid is good enough to go pro early, let them - before college. Or make it mandatory that they stay 4 years. The former seems more reasonable for all. With either option at least we aren't caught in this teaser middle ground that really has no relevance other than some odd perception that playing one year is good for the ncaa. I agree with the previous poster regarding Nolan vs Kylie. This rule should be changed - you never want to be in the middle and that's where we are.

it's an nba rule set by the nba because it benefits the nba. it has nothing to do with what is good for college basketball at all.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I just don't get the rule. What good is one year in college for anyone? If the kid is good enough to go pro early, let them - before college. Or make it mandatory that they stay 4 years. The former seems more reasonable for all. With either option at least we aren't caught in this teaser middle ground that really has no relevance other than some odd perception that playing one year is good for the ncaa. I agree with the previous poster regarding Nolan vs Kylie. This rule should be changed - you never want to be in the middle and that's where we are.

It's an NBA rule. It's good for the NBA, because it gives them the opportunity to brand and evaluate talent in public forum.

[Emerrick]

It's an NBA rule. It's good for the NBA, because it gives them the opportunity to brand and evaluate talent in public forum.

I knew it was an nba rule, but hadn't thought too deeply about why. Makes sense... For the nba. O Well. Likely no way around it then.

[53n206]

Can you imagine what this team could accomplish if they stayed until graduation. Look at the development of Jefferson, of Cook. But we all know--"money talks…".

[jdk]

Can you imagine what this team could accomplish if they stayed until graduation. Look at the development of Jefferson, of Cook. But we all know--"money talks…".

Or a team where senior Austin Rivers, junior Rodney Hood, and sophomore Jabari Parker were starting alongside Okafor and Cook.

Then again, we would still have to fear the brow.

[jv001]

Or a team where senior Austin Rivers, junior Rodney Hood, and sophomore Jabari Parker were starting alongside Okafor and Cook.

Then again, we would still have to fear the brow.

No way I'd take Austin Rivers over Tyus Jones at point guard and I'll take Quinn Cook and Rasheed over Rivers at 2G. The other two, I could find some minutes for. :cool:GoDuke!

[lotusland]

No way I'd take Austin Rivers over Tyus Jones at point guard and I'll take Quinn Cook and Rasheed over Rivers at 2G. The other two, I could find some minutes for. :cool:GoDuke!

I don't think we know how a senior AR would compare to those guys but, considering how good he was as a freshman I doubt he'd have been supplanted on the lineup by any of those guys. I don't know why Rivers gets s little respect around here.

[jv001]

I don't think we know how a senior AR would compare to those guys but, considering how good he was as a freshman I doubt he'd have been supplanted on the lineup by any of those guys. I don't know why Rivers gets s little respect around here.

I don't disrespect Austin Rivers, the person, I just don't like the style of play Duke had while he was here. He needed the ball in his hands too much. I wish Austin well in the NBA, but he seems to be having trouble there as well. I'll always like him for the death blow he dealt to the tarheels. GoDuke!

[SupaDave]

My favorite player on this year's team is junior Amile Jefferson. I've followed his play since he was a freshman and expect to continue doing so through the end of his senior season. I'm not sure how any one-and-done player prevents other fans from doing the same.

Next year we will actually have the most experienced team we've had since 2010. 3 seniors, 3 juniors(includes transfer Obi), 2/3 sophomores, and 3/4 freshmen (includes walk-on Robinson and hopefully Ingram).

All of our upper class men next year will have logged significant minutes. We will be one of the more seasoned teams in the country. Apparently we are filling our needs nicely and should expect this trend to continue unless we have mass exodus due to a national championship - something I can live with.

[SoCalDukeFan]

First of all I don't like the rule but its the way it is and we gotta live with it until its changes. I would prefer letting players who wanted to go to the NBA out of high school do so.

I think most coaches, including Coach K, want to have the best players on their team who meant their standards for academics and character etc. And the best players coming out of high school think of themselves as one and dones. I do think it leads to problems at Duke.

I used to think the Duke basketball culture was like a family, or was a family. The older guys taught the younger guys - Ferry to Laettner to Parks for example. That is largely gone. While I would guess that many coaches develop close relationships with their players, to me K's stand out. I think its hard to develop those relationships in a year. So to me its a cultural change more than an x's and o's thing.

SoCal

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

So lets say Rivers, Parker, Irving and Jah all won or win an NCAA championship? Would this make them worthy of your fandom? People are talking about how they don't feel connected to OADs and dont consider them part of Duke lore. I imagine that has more to do with how their careers ended than how long they were in school. If they all won player of the year awards and championships we would be talking about how great this OAD era has been for Duke.

[SupaDave]

So lets say Rivers, Parker, Irving and Jah all won or win an NCAA championship? Would this make them worthy of your fandom? People are talking about how they don't feel connected to OADs and dont consider them part of Duke lore. I imagine that has more to do with how their careers ended than how long they were in school. If they all won player of the year awards and championships we would be talking about how great this OAD era has been for Duke.

John Wall is revered at UK. Syracuse fans absolutely love Melo. Same for Durant at Texas. Akron and Ohio State fans treat Lebron like he went to both schools. Some people just find ways to not like players I suppose.

[gurufrisbee]

So lets say Rivers, Parker, Irving and Jah all won or win an NCAA championship? Would this make them worthy of your fandom? People are talking about how they don't feel connected to OADs and dont consider them part of Duke lore. I imagine that has more to do with how their careers ended than how long they were in school. If they all won player of the year awards and championships we would be talking about how great this OAD era has been for Duke.

I can't - and won't - speak for everyone, but I am one of those who doesn't feel like those guys were really Duke guys and no, I don't think it has anything to do with how much success they had for me. ANYONE who doesn't end up graduating for Duke feels like, to some degree, less of a true Duke guy to me. Billiy McCaffrey was a key part of winning our first title, but then he left after just two years and to me, he has never felt like a full Duke guy to me. Luol Deng was a one and done who got to the elite eight - same thing. It's all in matters of degrees for me, but it is how I've always felt. Stay for three or four years and you feel like you're a rock solid Duke guy. Less, and it's less.

A great example for me is the 99 team. Super team, made it to the title game. Langdon, Battier, Carrawell, James - all full Duke guys to me. Brand and Avery - a lot less. Brand probably has a bigger piece of my heart than Avery, but it's come during his NBA career (which is a lot longer than Avery's) - not because he was better while at Duke. Burgess - even less than those two, because he was at Duke the same, but then went to another college. Maggette - less than all of them - including Avery and Burgess. But that's just me.

[Kedsy]

Next year we will actually have the most experienced team we've had since 2010. 3 seniors, 3 juniors(includes transfer Obi), 2/3 sophomores, and 3/4 freshmen (includes walk-on Robinson and hopefully Ingram).

Won't Obi be a redshirt sophomore (like Rodney Hood was)? And if you don't count Obi, we'll only have one junior, right (Matt Jones)?

Also, I thought I heard Robinson plans to redshirt next year so he can get stronger?

How many sophomores we have depends on whether Justise and Tyus hang around or not. If they both bolt, I think we'll have three seniors, one junior, two sophomores (or three or four, if Justise and/or Tyus hang around), and two for sure or maybe three or four freshmen (depending on Ingram and/or Swanigan). Three seniors is good, but less experienced than the 2013 team (three seniors, all of whom played big minutes the year before, and two juniors), and fewer upperclassmen than 2012 (four juniors and a senior).

[Kedsy]

Luol Deng was a one and done who got to the elite eight - same thing.

Minor correction: Luol Deng's 2004 team made it to the Final Four.

[SupaDave]

Won't Obi be a redshirt sophomore (like Rodney Hood was)? And if you don't count Obi, we'll only have one junior, right (Matt Jones)?

Also, I thought I heard Robinson plans to redshirt next year so he can get stronger?

How many sophomores we have depends on whether Justise and Tyus hang around or not. If they both bolt, I think we'll have three seniors, one junior, two sophomores (or three or four, if Justise and/or Tyus hang around), and two for sure or maybe three or four freshmen (depending on Ingram and/or Swanigan). Three seniors is good, but less experienced than the 2013 team (three seniors, all of whom played big minutes the year before, and two juniors), and fewer upperclassmen than 2012 (four juniors and a senior).

He doesn't get a lot of PT but Nick P. is a valuable practice player - and will be a jr next year. We also gain a quiet schollie with the loss of Sean Kelly. And yes Obi, will be a redshirt sophomore but still a 3rd year player in the vein that Rodney Hood was for us, essentially a junior.

Probably a great idea for Robinson to red shirt - he won't be needed next year at all.

All three of our seniors will indeed have played big minutes, our jrs too (including Obi's one year starting at Rice).

The only true unknown is our freshmen 3 and at this point the only lock is Jahil. (at this point Russell Westbrook would eat Tyus for breakfast)

[Kedsy]

He doesn't get a lot of PT but Nick P. is a valuable practice player - and will be a jr next year. We also gain a quiet schollie with the loss of Sean Kelly. And yes Obi, will be a redshirt sophomore but still a 3rd year player in the vein that Rodney Hood was for us, essentially a junior.

Well, if you count Obi as a junior and walkons like Nick P as anything, then next year's experience still won't be that unusual for Duke. Here's the upperclassmen count since 2009 (through next season; counting transfers as their college year and counting walkons):

2016: 6 (3 seniors and 3 juniors)
2015: 5 (2 seniors and 3 juniors)
2014: 6 (4 seniors and 2 juniors)
2013: 7 (4 seniors and 3 juniors)
2012: 6 (1 senior and 5 juniors)
2011: 4 (3 seniors and 1 junior)
2010: 8 (4 seniors and 4 juniors)
2009: 8 (3 seniors and 5 juniors)

So next season's number of upperclassmen would beat this season (barely) and 2011, but no other seasons over the most recent eight season span.

[Neals384]

I don't disrespect Austin Rivers, the person, I just don't like the style of play Duke had while he was here. He needed the ball in his hands too much. I wish Austin well in the NBA, but he seems to be having trouble there as well. I'll always like him for the death blow he dealt to the tarheels. GoDuke!

I could get banned if I told you what I really think about Austin Rivers, so I won't. He did one very excellent thing for Duke and you nailed it!

[YmoBeThere]

Well, if you count Obi as a junior and walkons like Nick P as anything, then next year's experience still won't be that unusual for Duke. Here's the upperclassmen count since 2009 (through next season; counting transfers as their college year and counting walkons):

2016: 6 (3 seniors and 3 juniors)
2015: 5 (2 seniors and 3 juniors)
2014: 6 (4 seniors and 2 juniors)
2013: 7 (4 seniors and 3 juniors)
2012: 6 (1 senior and 5 juniors)
2011: 4 (3 seniors and 1 junior)
2010: 8 (4 seniors and 4 juniors)
2009: 8 (3 seniors and 5 juniors)

So next season's number of upperclassmen would beat this season (barely) and 2011, but no other seasons over the most recent eight season span.

Shouldn't any of this type of analysis include actual time on the court, perhaps from the prior season? Not denigrating the bench/practice players, but they have less impact on game outcomes than those who get minutes in the court.

[jdk]

I can't - and won't - speak for everyone, but I am one of those who doesn't feel like those guys were really Duke guys and no, I don't think it has anything to do with how much success they had for me. ANYONE who doesn't end up graduating for Duke feels like, to some degree, less of a true Duke guy to me. Billiy McCaffrey was a key part of winning our first title, but then he left after just two years and to me, he has never felt like a full Duke guy to me. Luol Deng was a one and done who got to the elite eight - same thing. It's all in matters of degrees for me, but it is how I've always felt. Stay for three or four years and you feel like you're a rock solid Duke guy. Less, and it's less.

A great example for me is the 99 team. Super team, made it to the title game. Langdon, Battier, Carrawell, James - all full Duke guys to me. Brand and Avery - a lot less. Brand probably has a bigger piece of my heart than Avery, but it's come during his NBA career (which is a lot longer than Avery's) - not because he was better while at Duke. Burgess - even less than those two, because he was at Duke the same, but then went to another college. Maggette - less than all of them - including Avery and Burgess. But that's just me.

I can't believe this is even debated. I'm not going to like a player just because he came to Duke for one year. A lot of that is circumstantial for the one and dones; it comes down to playing time available, national exposure, and how well a coach will showcase them for the draft. It takes time for me to like a player. With three year and four year guys, I get to see them develop over time, even if they didn't win a championship. With the one and dones, a lot of my opinion is tainted by how early they exited the tournament, because it seems that it was another season given up at the expense of showcasing one player, AND THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH ME THINKING THAT. It's part of what fandom entails. You want your team to win, and it's hard to make a bond with a player who's legacy ended with, "Hopefully we'll be a better team better next year WITHOUT him." So yes, I would like a one-and-done more if they won a national championship. There's not a single person on this message board who would feel otherwise.

Similarly, there are one and dones who I like, but didn't come to Duke. I like them because I watch them in the NBA. John Wall is the best example -- recruitment was dropped after a breaking and entering charge (IIRC), but I've watched him for five years as a Wizard, and it's hard not to like the guy. I liked Maggette (despite him wearing a UNC hat after his one Duke season), Livingston, and Brand because they played for the Clippers for so many years. But with the one and dones, it comes down to the chance that I get to see them play on a regular basis in the league, and it still takes time to warm up to them.

[NSDukeFan]

Probably a great idea for Robinson to red shirt - he won't be needed next year at all.


The only true unknown is our freshmen 3 and at this point the only lock is Jahil. (at this point Russell Westbrook would eat Tyus for breakfast)
Doesn't Westbrook eat pretty much everyone for breakfast?



Also, I thought I heard Robinson plans to redshirt next year so he can get stronger?

.

I am hoping Robinson is red shirting so that he can grow 7 inches and turn into a physical freak like his dad (or Russell Westbrook, in a different way).

[Kedsy]

Shouldn't any of this type of analysis include actual time on the court, perhaps from the prior season? Not denigrating the bench/practice players, but they have less impact on game outcomes than those who get minutes in the court.

I don't think the walkons should be counted at all. I was simply responding to SupaDave's remarks.