Who are we? Who are our leaders?

[bbosbbos]

Based on the first 11 games, we could win all.

Based on the last two games, we will play NIT.

There is not communication in the game.

Poor ball movement.

Every pass is going to big Jah. You only need to stand in front of big Jah, our pgs will certainly turn over to you.

Shoot 3 pts, Duke will not defend you.

Only Amile is a bright spot. he starts to do more O now.

I do not know what K can do to solve our problems. When players hand the basketball directly to opponents, what can a coach do?

[DevilWearsPrada]

Coach K on post game on Duke Radio.....sad.

K says There is alot of work to Do. Its a long season. It will be very hard and we are experienceing it. "What do we do" K comments.

NEXT PLAY Louisville

[MCFinARL]

Coach K on post game on Duke Radio.....sad.

K says There is alot of work to Do. Its a long season. It will be very hard and we are experienceing it. "What do we do" K comments.

NEXT PLAY Louisville

What do we do? You mean he is admitting he has no clue? Not a good sign.

[DevilWearsPrada]

What do we do? You mean he is admitting he has no clue? Not a good sign.

That's what was said in post game.

I am sure the coaches are over the Office Building watching the tape from the game. It was a painful 2nd half. Miami was so dominating. Their Guards and Bigs have been so good the last few years.

Duke needs to find an answer... and soon!

Not played well for the 3 acc games. Wake, State and Miami. Tough January.

K said "We are not playing confident. Not shooting confident. I Dont see it" Ks Comments

I think K and staff are as befuddled as we are!!! The Cameron Crazies were stunned. They quit cheering. Afterall, Miami was dancing all over Coach K court 2nd half and making bucket after bucket.

NEXT PLAY!!!! NEXT PLAY !!!!!!

[jjasper0729]

NEXT PLAY!!!! NEXT PLAY !!!!!!

I think this may be part of the problem. at least for me. I don't want NEXT PLAY! I want this to hurt, for them to get p*ssed off and to want to crush the next opponents because they need to know how we are feeling right now. I want to go back to "Here's to NEVER forgetting!"

In watching the game last night. Jahlil got visibly frustrated and Tyus seems to have hit the wall the last couple of games. BUT, where has Justise been? He started out the season giving the "experts" fodder as being the best freshman of the bunch but he's been almost non-existent the last few games. Even last night he made a lot of lackadaisical passes a few that got picked off and didnt' hold the ball strong. This was before he hurt his shoulder. I almost want to say his facial expressions and body language gave the appearance of "How much longer do I have to go through this season?". I hope that's not the case, but that's how it looked last night.

[UrinalCake]

I like what I saw from Amile last night. Finally looked for his own shot and scored very efficiently. Was open under the basket numerous times when they doubled Oak, though he only got the ball once. Rebounded extremely well. And we know that he is the vocal leader on defense.

Our veterans need to be our leaders, and Quinn and Amile were the guys fighting the hardest last night. Rasheed has his issues and is never going to be a leader, but I still feel more confident with him in the game than Matt Jones or Grayson.

[hudlow]

It's time for one of those closed door team meetings where coaches and staff aren't allowed.

[aro24]

I like what I saw from Amile last night. Finally looked for his own shot and scored very efficiently. Was open under the basket numerous times when they doubled Oak, though he only got the ball once. Rebounded extremely well. And we know that he is the vocal leader on defense.

Our veterans need to be our leaders, and Quinn and Amile were the guys fighting the hardest last night. Rasheed has his issues and is never going to be a leader, but I still feel more confident with him in the game than Matt Jones or Grayson.

++++++++++++++++++++

I noticed the same thing with Amile under the basket. In the first portion of the season (non-conf games) at least 3-4 times a game, Ja would get doubled and would dump it off to Amile under the hoop for a layup. The last 3 games in the ACC when he is getting doubled, he is dribbling out of it out to the arc.....that is not where I would want him. Once you get it in the post, make a move with it, or if the double comes, look to kick it out and re-post.

[Kedsy]

BUT, where has Justise been? He started out the season giving the "experts" fodder as being the best freshman of the bunch but he's been almost non-existent the last few games.

Justise certainly had an off-game against Miami (though I thought he played hard the whole game, and I didn't notice anything in his facial expressions or body language that suggested he didn't care or whatever you were implying). But "few games" means more than one or two, right? Against State, Justise didn't hit a lot of shots, but he took 13 shots (scoring 10 points) which hardly seems "non-existent." And the game before that, he had probably his best game of the season against Wake.

His average for the last three games (minimum for "few," as I understand it):

10.7 ppg; 4.3 rpg; 1.7 apg; 1.0 tpg; 0.3 spg; 1.0 bpg;

His stats for the season are:

11.9 ppg; 4.8 rpg; 2.1 apg; 1.6 tpg; 0.9 spg; 0.7 bpg;

So his season stats are a little better than his last three games, but considering the lesser schedule strength of the first 13 games, I'd say (as opposed to being "non-existent") that Justise is doing the exact same thing over the "last few games" that he did in the earlier games.

Last night may have seemed long enough to be a few games, but really Justise just had a bad game.

[CDu]

I think Cook and Jefferson are clear leaders. Unfortunately, I don't think it is on-court leadership that is the problem. The last few games have looked like we don't know how to make adjustments and we don't have good awareness of where to be defensively. That is, unfortunately (or maybe fortunately) a coaching issue and not a leadership issue.

I still don't like that we're trying to pressure 30+ feet from the basket with guys who don't have the quickness or defensive chops to do that. Cook and Tyus Jones are below-average defensively. And while Sulaimon certainly has the desire to play D, it does not appear that he's actually good at moving laterally (he seems to have a bit of lead foot disease at times).

People have referenced the 2010 season as an example of a team that came together after some bad losses. A few things to note about that 2010 team are this:
- that was a VERY veteran team. All 5 starters were upperclassmen, and as the season wore on those 5 starters took on a greater and greater proportion of the minutes. By season's end, the Plumlee brothers were playing the 10-15 mpg role and Dawkins was playing just a handful of minutes. In the final four games of our season, the starting 5 accounted for 170, 152, 170, and 183 minutes. That is an average of nearly 34 mpg for the starters. We simply don't have that kind of team this year.
- that was a VERY big team. In terms of minutes in the final four games of the tournament, guys 6'8" or taller accounted for the following minutes: 119, 117, 120, and 118, That's an average of 37 mpg at SF with someone 6'8" or taller. Again, we just don't have that type of team. And even on the perimeter, we were long. Smith wasn't tall, but he had long arms. And Scheyer was 6'5", almost as big as our SF.
- that team made a HUGE midseason strategy change that played to the strengths above. First, they started playing Zoubek a lot more. This made the team more experienced (as he took his minutes from the Plumlees), and it made us a better rebounding team. Second, they went completely out of Duke tradition in backing off the perimeter defense. This again played to their strengths (more specifically, it played away from their weaknesses) by not forcing the not-so-quick Scheyer to risk getting blown by 30 feet from the basket, and it required less subs (so Kelly and Dawkins didn't have to play much on the perimeter as freshmen). It also made the "hedge and recover" a bit easier, as our bigs were hedging at 20 feet instead of 25-30 feet.
- that team was a surprisingly good defensive team. Thomas became our best post defender since Shelden Willaims and/or Battier. Zoubek was a very strong rebounder and a big big body inside, and he was one of our best communicators and surprisingly adept at positioning and hedge-and-recover defense. Smith was an elite defender for a college guard. And Singler was a surprisingly good defender both on the wing and in the post due to his effort, toughness, and bball smarts. And while Scheyer was not a great defender, he had terrific court awareness and (as noted in the previous bullet) our strategy mitigated his deficiencies.

We are certainly a more talented team than the 2010 team player by player. Nobody on that team was as talented as Okafor, and I'd argue that Winslow and Tyus Jones are more talented than anyone besides maybe Singler. But we are not going to be as big or as experienced or as good defensively as that team ultimately was.

Right now, despite looking like a very different team positionally than last year's squad, I'm concerned that we're heading towards a similar type of team in that we are very dependent upon scoring at an obscene rate to win. Aside from the Wisconsin game (which may be more to do with the matchups, as Wisconsin doesn't have the athleticism on the perimeter to sufficiently punish our guards defensively), we haven't really looked good defensively this year. And even in the Wisconsin game, it was more our ridiculous offensive efficiency (fueled in part by some unsustainable shooting) that led us to that awesom victory, as Wisconsin was still pretty efficient offensively in that game.

There just seems to be something missing with either our preparation or execution defensively. We've not played very well on that end for several games now, and have played fairly poorly in the last 2 games.

[mgtr]

I like what I saw from Amile last night. Finally looked for his own shot and scored very efficiently. Was open under the basket numerous times when they doubled Oak, though he only got the ball once. Rebounded extremely well. And we know that he is the vocal leader on defense.

Our veterans need to be our leaders, and Quinn and Amile were the guys fighting the hardest last night. Rasheed has his issues and is never going to be a leader, but I still feel more confident with him in the game than Matt Jones or Grayson.

I agree 100%. Some of the young guys need to ride the pine until they understand what they need to do. However, part of the problem is coaching - Coach K has fallen into the Roy Williams trap -- it doesn't matter what talent you have, force them to play your way. With most of the talent in the young guys, they need to be given a plan to succeed with the talent they have. Cook and Amile are the leaders, they are the same as last year, but better.

[dukelifer]

I think Cook and Jefferson are clear leaders. Unfortunately, I don't think it is on-court leadership that is the problem. The last few games have looked like we don't know how to make adjustments and we don't have good awareness of where to be defensively. That is, unfortunately (or maybe fortunately) a coaching issue and not a leadership issue.

I still don't like that we're trying to pressure 30+ feet from the basket with guys who don't have the quickness or defensive chops to do that. Cook and Tyus Jones are below-average defensively. And while Sulaimon certainly has the desire to play D, it does not appear that he's actually good at moving laterally (he seems to have a bit of lead foot disease at times).

People have referenced the 2010 season as an example of a team that came together after some bad losses. A few things to note about that 2010 team are this:
- that was a VERY veteran team. All 5 starters were upperclassmen, and as the season wore on those 5 starters took on a greater and greater proportion of the minutes. By season's end, the Plumlee brothers were playing the 10-15 mpg role and Dawkins was playing just a handful of minutes. In the final four games of our season, the starting 5 accounted for 170, 152, 170, and 183 minutes. That is an average of nearly 34 mpg for the starters. We simply don't have that kind of team this year.
- that was a VERY big team. In terms of minutes in the final four games of the tournament, guys 6'8" or taller accounted for the following minutes: 119, 117, 120, and 118, That's an average of 37 mpg at SF with someone 6'8" or taller. Again, we just don't have that type of team. And even on the perimeter, we were long. Smith wasn't tall, but he had long arms. And Scheyer was 6'5", almost as big as our SF.
- that team made a HUGE midseason strategy change that played to the strengths above. First, they started playing Zoubek a lot more. This made the team more experienced (as he took his minutes from the Plumlees), and it made us a better rebounding team. Second, they went completely out of Duke tradition in backing off the perimeter defense. This again played to their strengths (more specifically, it played away from their weaknesses) by not forcing the not-so-quick Scheyer to risk getting blown by 30 feet from the basket, and it required less subs (so Kelly and Dawkins didn't have to play much on the perimeter as freshmen). It also made the "hedge and recover" a bit easier, as our bigs were hedging at 20 feet instead of 25-30 feet.
- that team was a surprisingly good defensive team. Thomas became our best post defender since Shelden Willaims and/or Battier. Zoubek was a very strong rebounder and a big big body inside, and he was one of our best communicators and surprisingly adept at positioning and hedge-and-recover defense. Smith was an elite defender for a college guard. And Singler was a surprisingly good defender both on the wing and in the post due to his effort, toughness, and bball smarts. And while Scheyer was not a great defender, he had terrific court awareness and (as noted in the previous bullet) our strategy mitigated his deficiencies.

We are certainly a more talented team than the 2010 team player by player. Nobody on that team was as talented as Okafor, and I'd argue that Winslow and Tyus Jones are more talented than anyone besides maybe Singler. But we are not going to be as big or as experienced or as good defensively as that team ultimately was.

Right now, despite looking like a very different team positionally than last year's squad, I'm concerned that we're heading towards a similar type of team in that we are very dependent upon scoring at an obscene rate to win. Aside from the Wisconsin game (which may be more to do with the matchups, as Wisconsin doesn't have the athleticism on the perimeter to sufficiently punish our guards defensively), we haven't really looked good defensively this year. And even in the Wisconsin game, it was more our ridiculous offensive efficiency (fueled in part by some unsustainable shooting) that led us to that awesom victory, as Wisconsin was still pretty efficient offensively in that game.

There just seems to be something missing with either our preparation or execution defensively. We've not played very well on that end for several games now, and have played fairly poorly in the last 2 games.

I agree that this is not 2010. That team was longer and much more experienced. This team needs to score and punish teams for double or triple teaming Okafor. Unfortunately- the shooters are not there. On paper it should be okay- but the shooters are not there. I don't think the D will get much better - perhaps a tweak or two- reducing the pressure up top- and Duke is an injury away from being mediocre. This team does have the players to play better team ball. They need to play with nothing to lose. We are seeing a team lose its confidence. It happens all the time. Fortunately it can change on a dime. We shall see if it can this year.

[The Gordog]

I think Cook and Jefferson are clear leaders. Unfortunately, I don't think it is on-court leadership that is the problem. The last few games have looked like we don't know how to make adjustments and we don't have good awareness of where to be defensively. That is, unfortunately (or maybe fortunately) a coaching issue and not a leadership issue.

I still don't like that we're trying to pressure 30+ feet from the basket with guys who don't have the quickness or defensive chops to do that. Cook and Tyus Jones are below-average defensively. And while Sulaimon certainly has the desire to play D, it does not appear that he's actually good at moving laterally (he seems to have a bit of lead foot disease at times).

People have referenced the 2010 season as an example of a team that came together after some bad losses. A few things to note about that 2010 team are this:
- that was a VERY veteran team. All 5 starters were upperclassmen, and as the season wore on those 5 starters took on a greater and greater proportion of the minutes. By season's end, the Plumlee brothers were playing the 10-15 mpg role and Dawkins was playing just a handful of minutes. In the final four games of our season, the starting 5 accounted for 170, 152, 170, and 183 minutes. That is an average of nearly 34 mpg for the starters. We simply don't have that kind of team this year.
- that was a VERY big team. In terms of minutes in the final four games of the tournament, guys 6'8" or taller accounted for the following minutes: 119, 117, 120, and 118, That's an average of 37 mpg at SF with someone 6'8" or taller. Again, we just don't have that type of team. And even on the perimeter, we were long. Smith wasn't tall, but he had long arms. And Scheyer was 6'5", almost as big as our SF.
- that team made a HUGE midseason strategy change that played to the strengths above. First, they started playing Zoubek a lot more. This made the team more experienced (as he took his minutes from the Plumlees), and it made us a better rebounding team. Second, they went completely out of Duke tradition in backing off the perimeter defense. This again played to their strengths (more specifically, it played away from their weaknesses) by not forcing the not-so-quick Scheyer to risk getting blown by 30 feet from the basket, and it required less subs (so Kelly and Dawkins didn't have to play much on the perimeter as freshmen). It also made the "hedge and recover" a bit easier, as our bigs were hedging at 20 feet instead of 25-30 feet.
- that team was a surprisingly good defensive team. Thomas became our best post defender since Shelden Willaims and/or Battier. Zoubek was a very strong rebounder and a big big body inside, and he was one of our best communicators and surprisingly adept at positioning and hedge-and-recover defense. Smith was an elite defender for a college guard. And Singler was a surprisingly good defender both on the wing and in the post due to his effort, toughness, and bball smarts. And while Scheyer was not a great defender, he had terrific court awareness and (as noted in the previous bullet) our strategy mitigated his deficiencies.

We are certainly a more talented team than the 2010 team player by player. Nobody on that team was as talented as Okafor, and I'd argue that Winslow and Tyus Jones are more talented than anyone besides maybe Singler. But we are not going to be as big or as experienced or as good defensively as that team ultimately was.

Right now, despite looking like a very different team positionally than last year's squad, I'm concerned that we're heading towards a similar type of team in that we are very dependent upon scoring at an obscene rate to win. Aside from the Wisconsin game (which may be more to do with the matchups, as Wisconsin doesn't have the athleticism on the perimeter to sufficiently punish our guards defensively), we haven't really looked good defensively this year. And even in the Wisconsin game, it was more our ridiculous offensive efficiency (fueled in part by some unsustainable shooting) that led us to that awesom victory, as Wisconsin was still pretty efficient offensively in that game.

There just seems to be something missing with either our preparation or execution defensively. We've not played very well on that end for several games now, and have played fairly poorly in the last 2 games.

Excellent post. Key take away bolded above: this is on the coaching staff, and is the same problem we have had for some years. Remember a couple of years ago when everyone said that ol' Roy has issues when his team is lacking a super speedy PG? Well, you have to admit that K has issues when we don't have a lock-down defender PG. K needs to adjust.

[jv001]

I think Cook and Jefferson are clear leaders. Unfortunately, I don't think it is on-court leadership that is the problem. The last few games have looked like we don't know how to make adjustments and we don't have good awareness of where to be defensively. That is, unfortunately (or maybe fortunately) a coaching issue and not a leadership issue.

I still don't like that we're trying to pressure 30+ feet from the basket with guys who don't have the quickness or defensive chops to do that. Cook and Tyus Jones are below-average defensively. And while Sulaimon certainly has the desire to play D, it does not appear that he's actually good at moving laterally (he seems to have a bit of lead foot disease at times).

People have referenced the 2010 season as an example of a team that came together after some bad losses. A few things to note about that 2010 team are this:
- that was a VERY veteran team. All 5 starters were upperclassmen, and as the season wore on those 5 starters took on a greater and greater proportion of the minutes. By season's end, the Plumlee brothers were playing the 10-15 mpg role and Dawkins was playing just a handful of minutes. In the final four games of our season, the starting 5 accounted for 170, 152, 170, and 183 minutes. That is an average of nearly 34 mpg for the starters. We simply don't have that kind of team this year.
- that was a VERY big team. In terms of minutes in the final four games of the tournament, guys 6'8" or taller accounted for the following minutes: 119, 117, 120, and 118, That's an average of 37 mpg at SF with someone 6'8" or taller. Again, we just don't have that type of team. And even on the perimeter, we were long. Smith wasn't tall, but he had long arms. And Scheyer was 6'5", almost as big as our SF.
- that team made a HUGE midseason strategy change that played to the strengths above. First, they started playing Zoubek a lot more. This made the team more experienced (as he took his minutes from the Plumlees), and it made us a better rebounding team. Second, they went completely out of Duke tradition in backing off the perimeter defense. This again played to their strengths (more specifically, it played away from their weaknesses) by not forcing the not-so-quick Scheyer to risk getting blown by 30 feet from the basket, and it required less subs (so Kelly and Dawkins didn't have to play much on the perimeter as freshmen). It also made the "hedge and recover" a bit easier, as our bigs were hedging at 20 feet instead of 25-30 feet.
- that team was a surprisingly good defensive team. Thomas became our best post defender since Shelden Willaims and/or Battier. Zoubek was a very strong rebounder and a big big body inside, and he was one of our best communicators and surprisingly adept at positioning and hedge-and-recover defense. Smith was an elite defender for a college guard. And Singler was a surprisingly good defender both on the wing and in the post due to his effort, toughness, and bball smarts. And while Scheyer was not a great defender, he had terrific court awareness and (as noted in the previous bullet) our strategy mitigated his deficiencies.

We are certainly a more talented team than the 2010 team player by player. Nobody on that team was as talented as Okafor, and I'd argue that Winslow and Tyus Jones are more talented than anyone besides maybe Singler. But we are not going to be as big or as experienced or as good defensively as that team ultimately was.

Right now, despite looking like a very different team positionally than last year's squad, I'm concerned that we're heading towards a similar type of team in that we are very dependent upon scoring at an obscene rate to win. Aside from the Wisconsin game (which may be more to do with the matchups, as Wisconsin doesn't have the athleticism on the perimeter to sufficiently punish our guards defensively), we haven't really looked good defensively this year. And even in the Wisconsin game, it was more our ridiculous offensive efficiency (fueled in part by some unsustainable shooting) that led us to that awesom victory, as Wisconsin was still pretty efficient offensively in that game.

There just seems to be something missing with either our preparation or execution defensively. We've not played very well on that end for several games now, and have played fairly poorly in the last 2 games.

Thanks for the trip back to 2010. I needed that. I agree with all your points, especially not guarding 30 feet from the basket. We just don't have the lock down defenders to do that. Where are you Duhon, King, Amaker, etc:cool:? As you mentioned the 2010 team was not athletic enough to play that style either. Thomas was not only our best post defender, he was probably our best defender. When caught on a switch he could handle opposing point guards for short stretches. Zoubs was incredible in blocking shots. Many from off the ball. I would like to see more of that from Jahlil. I really believe if our defense get's better, so will our offense. I love it when Duke get's excited over good stops but I haven't seen that excitement lately. GoDuke!

[jacone21]

Excellent post. Key take away bolded above: this is on the coaching staff, and is the same problem we have had for some years. Remember a couple of years ago when everyone said that ol' Roy has issues when his team is lacking a super speedy PG? Well, you have to admit that K has issues when we don't have a lock-down defender PG. K needs to adjust.

What's more... they often pressure guys who are no threat from the outside. If a guy can't even make an 18 footer, why guard him out to half court? Back off and help in the lanes. They need to study and prepare for an opponent's personnel. Pressure the guys who can make shots, help off others. That's what teams do to Duke. Duke players often press the wrong guys and leave the wrong guys open. Frustrates the heck out of me sometimes.

I still think it'll get better. It's just hoops after all.

[CDu]

I agree 100%. Some of the young guys need to ride the pine until they understand what they need to do. However, part of the problem is coaching - Coach K has fallen into the Roy Williams trap -- it doesn't matter what talent you have, force them to play your way. With most of the talent in the young guys, they need to be given a plan to succeed with the talent they have. Cook and Amile are the leaders, they are the same as last year, but better.

The irony is that Coach K hasn't done this on the offensive end. He has been extremely versatile on that end of the floor based on the skills of his teams. It is only on the defensive end of the floor where he has been so dogmatic in his approach. Aside from flashing an occasional token zone defense (and I am NOT suggesting that switching to zone is the answer at all) and the well-documented strategic switch to a compact man-to-man later in the 2010 season), Coach has shown very little flexibility on defense. With the rules changes (both on and off court - more specifics below), I think his philosophies on defense are becoming more and more outdated.

Changes of note:
- much greater emphasis on hand-checking on the perimeter, making it harder to be physical defensively on the perimeter
- proliferation of the 3pt shot (even to bigs now) and the extension of the 3pt line, meaning pressure defense is now spreading you out that much more (making help defensive that much harder)
- NCAA-mandated reduction in practice time allowed, which reduces the amount of time Coach K and his staff can work with the team on defensive principles and positioning
- the proliferation of early-entry and the one-and-done rules, which reduce the amount of time that the most talented players spend with a team (and really hurt team continuity in general)

In the 80s and early 90s, Coach K's defensive system worked great because he had veteran, talented guys who knew the system, and the system was well-designed for the college game. But now the game has evolved such that the floor is much more spread (way more 3 pt shooting from all positions on the floor, and an extended 3pt line). And the hand-check rules make it harder to contain ballhandlers on the perimeter too. So it's that much harder to play Coach K's style of defense. And on top of that, he has less time to teach that defensive philosophy (for a variety of reasons related to early entry and due to the practice restrictions). So we have guys less ready to play the system AND facing a landscape where it is harder to be effective in that system. It is sounding like a perfect storm.

We've been pretty fortunate until VERY recently that we haven't been overwhelmed with early entry. Aside from 1999, I think we had just one key guy leave before his junior year until after the 2009 season. Since then, we've seen substantially more turnover (not more than other programs per se, but much more than we'd faced). And it seems like Coach K is still trying to figure out how to adapt to the potential reality that his defensive philosophy may no longer work.

[_Gary]

I love it when Duke get's excited over good stops but I haven't seen that excitement lately. GoDuke!

That reminds me of something. Where's that floor slap we saw early on in the year? The guys looked really intent on playing great defense in November and December. Not quite so much now.

[CDu]

That reminds me of something. Where's that floor slap we saw early on in the year? The guys looked really intent on playing great defense in November and December. Not quite so much now.

I'll be honest: I hate the floor slap. Mainly because it seems like every time we slap the floor the opposition immediately scores a very easy bucket.

[_Gary]

The irony is that Coach K hasn't done this on the offensive end. He has been extremely versatile on that end of the floor based on the skills of his teams. It is only on the defensive end of the floor where he has been so dogmatic in his approach. Aside from flashing an occasional token zone defense (and I am NOT suggesting that switching to zone is the answer at all) and the well-documented strategic switch to a compact man-to-man later in the 2010 season), Coach has shown very little flexibility on defense. With the rules changes (both on and off court - more specifics below), I think his philosophies on defense are becoming more and more outdated.

Changes of note:
- much greater emphasis on hand-checking on the perimeter, making it harder to be physical defensively on the perimeter
- proliferation of the 3pt shot (even to bigs now) and the extension of the 3pt line, meaning pressure defense is now spreading you out that much more (making help defensive that much harder)
- NCAA-mandated reduction in practice time allowed, which reduces the amount of time Coach K and his staff can work with the team on defensive principles and positioning
- the proliferation of early-entry and the one-and-done rules, which reduce the amount of time that the most talented players spend with a team (and really hurt team continuity in general)

In the 80s and early 90s, Coach K's defensive system worked great because he had veteran, talented guys who knew the system, and the system was well-designed for the college game. But now the game has evolved such that the floor is much more spread (way more 3 pt shooting from all positions on the floor, and an extended 3pt line). And the hand-check rules make it harder to contain ballhandlers on the perimeter too. So it's that much harder to play Coach K's style of defense. And on top of that, he has less time to teach that defensive philosophy (for a variety of reasons related to early entry and due to the practice restrictions). So we have guys less ready to play the system AND facing a landscape where it is harder to be effective in that system. It is sounding like a perfect storm.

We've been pretty fortunate until VERY recently that we haven't been overwhelmed with early entry. Aside from 1999, I think we had just one key guy leave before his junior year until after the 2009 season. Since then, we've seen substantially more turnover (not more than other programs per se, but much more than we'd faced). And it seems like Coach K is still trying to figure out how to adapt to the potential reality that his defensive philosophy may no longer work.

It's like you are reading my mind. I don't think it's simply the lack of recruiting the correct type of players (quick, lengthy guards and forwards) that is hurting us on D. I honestly do think the style that worked so well for Coach K and Duke a couple of decades ago simply isn't what works nearly as well any more. But now we are getting into "old dog, new tricks" territory and I'm not sure how well that will go over here or in the offices at Cameron.

[_Gary]

I'll be honest: I hate the floor slap. Mainly because it seems like every time we slap the floor the opposition immediately scores a very easy bucket.

This is true. But at least, earlier on this year, I felt it signaled that our current team was truly excited about playing defense. Hopefully that's still the case.

[jv001]

The irony is that Coach K hasn't done this on the offensive end. He has been extremely versatile on that end of the floor based on the skills of his teams. It is only on the defensive end of the floor where he has been so dogmatic in his approach. Aside from flashing an occasional token zone defense (and I am NOT suggesting that switching to zone is the answer at all) and the well-documented strategic switch to a compact man-to-man later in the 2010 season), Coach has shown very little flexibility on defense. With the rules changes (both on and off court - more specifics below), I think his philosophies on defense are becoming more and more outdated.

Changes of note:
- much greater emphasis on hand-checking on the perimeter, making it harder to be physical defensively on the perimeter
- proliferation of the 3pt shot (even to bigs now) and the extension of the 3pt line, meaning pressure defense is now spreading you out that much more (making help defensive that much harder)
- NCAA-mandated reduction in practice time allowed, which reduces the amount of time Coach K and his staff can work with the team on defensive principles and positioning
- the proliferation of early-entry and the one-and-done rules, which reduce the amount of time that the most talented players spend with a team (and really hurt team continuity in general)

In the 80s and early 90s, Coach K's defensive system worked great because he had veteran, talented guys who knew the system, and the system was well-designed for the college game. But now the game has evolved such that the floor is much more spread (way more 3 pt shooting from all positions on the floor, and an extended 3pt line). And the hand-check rules make it harder to contain ballhandlers on the perimeter too. So it's that much harder to play Coach K's style of defense. And on top of that, he has less time to teach that defensive philosophy (for a variety of reasons related to early entry and due to the practice restrictions). So we have guys less ready to play the system AND facing a landscape where it is harder to be effective in that system. It is sounding like a perfect storm.

We've been pretty fortunate until VERY recently that we haven't been overwhelmed with early entry. Aside from 1999, I think we had just one key guy leave before his junior year until after the 2009 season. Since then, we've seen substantially more turnover (not more than other programs per se, but much more than we'd faced). And it seems like Coach K is still trying to figure out how to adapt to the potential reality that his defensive philosophy may no longer work.

Cdu, can you please copy and paste your two recent posts on this thread to the Duke vs. Miami thread. These two posts are right on, my Duke friend. I would do it, but I'm not that efficient. GoDuke!

[CDu]

It's like you are reading my mind. I don't think it's simply the lack of recruiting the correct type of players (quick, lengthy guards and forwards) that is hurting us on D. I honestly do think the style that worked so well for Coach K and Duke a couple of decades ago simply isn't what works nearly as well any more. But now we are getting into "old dog, new tricks" territory and I'm not sure how well that will go over here or in the offices at Cameron.

Thanks! It is really weird because Coach has been so flexible on one end and so inflexible on the other.

Also I must correct an obvious error. I forgot McRoberts, so it was tw key guys leaving before their junior year from 2000 until Elliot Williams after 2009.

[NM Duke Fan]

I was able to see my first game against NC State. I was struck by two things: This team has few players who are quick, natural defenders, truly talented at defense. Especially in the backcourt. And it does not appear to have lights out 3 point shooters with releases that are hard to block

I have not seen Louisville yet this year, but if they have a team built around their typical template, the chances of winning this weekend are very low.

How to best use the talent on hand, that is the question. If Rasheed could consistently play according to his strengths, he could make somewhat of a difference. But when you have two guards that are on the smaller and slower side, that is a difficult problem to solve. Tinkering can help, but it is rare that such a weakness can be fully compensated for by scheme adjustments.

[CDu]

This is true. But at least, earlier on this year, I felt it signaled that our current team was truly excited about playing defense. Hopefully that's still the case.

Yeah it at least signifies desire. And I admit my hatred of it is irrational. :)

[CDu]

Cdu, can you please copy and paste your two recent posts on this thread to the Duke vs. Miami thread. These two posts are right on, my Duke friend. I would do it, but I'm not that efficient. GoDuke!

Thanks for your kind words! I will try to consolidate and move over there.

[Kedsy]

Zoubs was incredible in blocking shots.

I know it's not important, but we don't have to make stuff up to fuel the legend that Brian Zoubek has become, do we?

Zoubek was one of my favorite players (even before the Maryland game, when most others were calling for him to get a permanent seat on the bench), but he was not much of a shot blocker at all. Statistically, Jahlil is better, and Marshall is more than twice as good.

I agree with CDu's overall point that this team is very different from the 2010 team and we can't automatically expect the same kind of finish just because it happened then. But I do think there is an apt lesson from 2010 for this team: just because you look bad in some games doesn't make you a bad team. The 2010 team was susceptible to four-out, one-in teams with quick guards and a stretch 4. Wisconsin beat us, NC State killed us, and Georgetown absolutely obliterated us. If we'd played a team like that in the NCAA tournament, there's a really good chance we'd have lost. But we didn't and we won the championship and while that was great it was hardly inevitable.

After those losses in 2010, the negative comments on these boards were probably even worse than they are today. But the nellies were wrong, not because they failed to see how poorly we'd played in those games (they were totally right about that) but because they failed to see that one or two games don't necessarily define the team.

[daveduke76]

Justise certainly had an off-game against Miami (though I thought he played hard the whole game, and I didn't notice anything in his facial expressions or body language that suggested he didn't care or whatever you were implying). But "few games" means more than one or two, right? Against State, Justise didn't hit a lot of shots, but he took 13 shots (scoring 10 points) which hardly seems "non-existent." And the game before that, he had probably his best game of the season against Wake.

His average for the last three games (minimum for "few," as I understand it):

10.7 ppg; 4.3 rpg; 1.7 apg; 1.0 tpg; 0.3 spg; 1.0 bpg;

His stats for the season are:

11.9 ppg; 4.8 rpg; 2.1 apg; 1.6 tpg; 0.9 spg; 0.7 bpg;

So his season stats are a little better than his last three games, but considering the lesser schedule strength of the first 13 games, I'd say (as opposed to being "non-existent") that Justise is doing the exact same thing over the "last few games" that he did in the earlier games.

Last night may have seemed long enough to be a few games, but really Justise just had a bad game.

I thought Justice looked like a deer in head lights at times. The one instance I remember is he missed a wide open three (I think it was an air ball) and, after Oak got the offence rebound, he got the ball back in the same spot. He hesitated a moment like he was going to try another 3. He didn't and drove and had the ball taken from him.
His stats yesterday were 1-6 FG and 0-4 FT - a couple of the free throws were one-and-one. It was a bad game for him, but he didn't look confident at all

[Wander]

But I do think there is an apt lesson from 2010 for this team: just because you look bad in some games doesn't make you a bad team. The 2010 team was susceptible to four-out, one-in teams with quick guards and a stretch 4. Wisconsin beat us, NC State killed us, and Georgetown absolutely obliterated us.

I have to come to the defense of my favorite team. A close loss in a true road game to a team that would become a 4 seed in the NCAA tournament isn't even worth mentioning as a "bad game." The NC State and Georgetown losses were also both on the road, Georgetown would become a 3 seed in the tournament (though upset early), and I'd nitpick about the term "absolutely obliterated." None of these three losses are as bad as last night's loss - two of the three aren't even in the same ballpark.

That said, I agree with the overall point and while it's far from certain, I'm guess we'll change up the defense a little and be fine in the end.

[fuse]

I looked and could not find the "pack line" defense thread from the past.

I know Coach K wants to innovate and not imitate.
It seems to me with all the rule changes, our defensive strategy of the past is outdated, leads to easy buckets, and foul trouble.

Maybe pack line is not the answer, Tony Bennett and UVa seem to be the strongest defensive team as the rules/ emphasis have changed.

I think there is a combination of coaching flexibility and team heart / toughness that need to be considered.

[Kedsy]

Georgetown would become a 3 seed in the tournament (though upset early), and I'd nitpick about the term "absolutely obliterated."

Georgetown was ahead by 23 with a little over 4 minutes to play and shot 72% for the game. They seemed to be able to score whenever they pleased. I acknowledge people's opinions may vary about subjective descriptions, but it seemed like an obliteration to me.

And after that game I remember spending a good deal of effort arguing with posters here, stating my position that the poor performance didn't define our team nor did it mean we had no chance of making the Final Four. I feel the same way now (though that last isn't directed at you in any way).

[duke4life32182]

The problem is our D. Good teams rely on the D. Our guard combos aren't staying in front of anybody. That philosophy has to change unless our guards became way faster. Cook and Jones are probably two of the most lead footed guards I have seen in awhile. Neither can stay in front of their man. Dropping back the pressure a few feet sounds like a good plan with this team. The O needs a bit of tweeking as well. That same stated foot speed correlates to the offense as well. As well as feeding the big man, we need to run more pick and roles with Amile and pick and pops for Winslow. Other teams just guard their man to Jahil's side and when the pass is about to be made simply take it from our guards.

[jv001]

I know it's not important, but we don't have to make stuff up to fuel the legend that Brian Zoubek has become, do we?


After those losses in 2010, the negative comments on these boards were probably even worse than they are today. But the nellies were wrong, not because they failed to see how poorly we'd played in those games (they were totally right about that) but because they failed to see that one or two games don't necessarily define the team.

I guess that's the way I want to remember Zoubs :cool: As for the negative comments on the 2010 team you're correct there. But if I remember correctly, Coach K made some changes by playing Zoubs more and he did block some shots, maybe just not incredibly. He also brought the man to man defense in and took advantage of what turned out to be a good defensive team in the end. I think that type defense would help Duke get back to being a good defensive team. GoDuke!

[flyingdutchdevil]

I guess that's the way I want to remember Zoubs :cool: As for the negative comments on the 2010 team you're correct there. But if I remember correctly, Coach K made some changes by playing Zoubs more and he did block some shots, maybe just not incredibly. He also brought the man to man defense in and took advantage of what turned out to be a good defensive team in the end. I think that type defense would help Duke get back to being a good defensive team. GoDuke!

I remember Zoubs as altering a ton of shots. Being 7'1"-7'2" will do that. But I don't remember Zoubs blocking a lot of shots.

[CDu]

I know it's not important, but we don't have to make stuff up to fuel the legend that Brian Zoubek has become, do we?

Zoubek was one of my favorite players (even before the Maryland game, when most others were calling for him to get a permanent seat on the bench), but he was not much of a shot blocker at all. Statistically, Jahlil is better, and Marshall is more than twice as good.

I agree with CDu's overall point that this team is very different from the 2010 team and we can't automatically expect the same kind of finish just because it happened then. But I do think there is an apt lesson from 2010 for this team: just because you look bad in some games doesn't make you a bad team. The 2010 team was susceptible to four-out, one-in teams with quick guards and a stretch 4. Wisconsin beat us, NC State killed us, and Georgetown absolutely obliterated us. If we'd played a team like that in the NCAA tournament, there's a really good chance we'd have lost. But we didn't and we won the championship and while that was great it was hardly inevitable.

After those losses in 2010, the negative comments on these boards were probably even worse than they are today. But the nellies were wrong, not because they failed to see how poorly we'd played in those games (they were totally right about that) but because they failed to see that one or two games don't necessarily define the team.

Totally agree with your point about 2010. Though I'd note that two big things happened after the NC State and Georgetown loss that are anomalous:
1. We made a MAJOR change in the lineup and in the defensive strategy midseason, and one player in particular (Zoubek) made a HUGE leap in his ability to stay on the floor. Putting Zoubek in the starting lineup (and his sudden ability to avoid the fouls that kept him from exploiting his rebounding prowess for longer minutes) and reining in the defensive pressure on the perimeter made a huge difference.
2. We got really fortunate in not facing teams with really good "4-in, 1-out" lineups until very late in the NCAA tournament. And even then, we were lucky in that those teams had other limitations. West Virginia lacked quickness and ballhandlers and had NO depth (especially once Butler got hurt). And Butler was very small and lacked scoring punch. Outside of those two games, we were somewhat fortunate to either face teams that were much worse than us or that just didn't match up well against us.

I think that we face some of the same defensive flaws as that 2010 team had, especially on the perimeter. But we aren't going to get as big, as physical, and as experienced as we were in 2010. So while I hope we can identify a strategic change that helps like we had in 2010, I don't think it is as simple as pulling back our perimeter pressure. That should help, but I don't think it is necessarily enough to make us a good defensive team.

But ultimately, how far we go in the tournament will depend on how fortunate we are with our matchups. I think we are facing a uphill battle to get a #1 seed now, so we aren't likely to get a complete pushover even in round 1. Hopefully we can avoid an undervalued #14/15 seed in round 1 and can get lined up in a bracket that is light on great guard play.

[Kedsy]

I guess that's the way I want to remember Zoubs :cool: As for the negative comments on the 2010 team you're correct there. But if I remember correctly, Coach K made some changes by playing Zoubs more and he did block some shots, maybe just not incredibly. He also brought the man to man defense in and took advantage of what turned out to be a good defensive team in the end. I think that type defense would help Duke get back to being a good defensive team. GoDuke!

Yeah, Z blocked some, but still less than 1 a game, which isn't really that many for a 7'1" college player who started and played decent minutes down the stretch.

CDu is absolutely right that Coach K made a big change by inserting Zoubek into the starting lineup in 2010, and Zoubek managed to cut his foul rate so he could play more minutes, but the 2010 team also had a top 10 defense (according to Pomeroy) before Zoubek began his starting streak. My recollection is we backed off on defense from pretty much the beginning of November, as opposed to making the change mid-season. I remember noticing it when I went to the UConn and Arizona State games in November that season. Really, I think that team was pretty consistent on both sides of the ball, except those two awful games against NC State and Georgetown, and maybe a couple other games to a lesser extent.

I totally agree with CDu about the luck of the draw in the NCAA tournament. Obviously there's no way to tell how that's going to go in any particular season until we get there.

[Kfanarmy]

I think Cook and Jefferson are clear leaders. Unfortunately, I don't think it is on-court leadership that is the problem. The last few games have looked like we don't know how to make adjustments and we don't have good awareness of where to be defensively. That is, unfortunately (or maybe fortunately) a coaching issue and not a leadership issue.

I still don't like that we're trying to pressure 30+ feet from the basket with guys who don't have the quickness or defensive chops to do that. Cook and Tyus Jones are below-average defensively. And while Sulaimon certainly has the desire to play D, it does not appear that he's actually good at moving laterally (he seems to have a bit of lead foot disease at times).

People have referenced the 2010 season as an example of a team that came together after some bad losses. A few things to note about that 2010 team are this:
- that was a VERY veteran team. All 5 starters were upperclassmen, and as the season wore on those 5 starters took on a greater and greater proportion of the minutes. By season's end, the Plumlee brothers were playing the 10-15 mpg role and Dawkins was playing just a handful of minutes. In the final four games of our season, the starting 5 accounted for 170, 152, 170, and 183 minutes. That is an average of nearly 34 mpg for the starters. We simply don't have that kind of team this year.
- that was a VERY big team. In terms of minutes in the final four games of the tournament, guys 6'8" or taller accounted for the following minutes: 119, 117, 120, and 118, That's an average of 37 mpg at SF with someone 6'8" or taller. Again, we just don't have that type of team. And even on the perimeter, we were long. Smith wasn't tall, but he had long arms. And Scheyer was 6'5", almost as big as our SF.
- that team made a HUGE midseason strategy change that played to the strengths above. First, they started playing Zoubek a lot more. This made the team more experienced (as he took his minutes from the Plumlees), and it made us a better rebounding team. Second, they went completely out of Duke tradition in backing off the perimeter defense. This again played to their strengths (more specifically, it played away from their weaknesses) by not forcing the not-so-quick Scheyer to risk getting blown by 30 feet from the basket, and it required less subs (so Kelly and Dawkins didn't have to play much on the perimeter as freshmen). It also made the "hedge and recover" a bit easier, as our bigs were hedging at 20 feet instead of 25-30 feet.
- that team was a surprisingly good defensive team. Thomas became our best post defender since Shelden Willaims and/or Battier. Zoubek was a very strong rebounder and a big big body inside, and he was one of our best communicators and surprisingly adept at positioning and hedge-and-recover defense. Smith was an elite defender for a college guard. And Singler was a surprisingly good defender both on the wing and in the post due to his effort, toughness, and bball smarts. And while Scheyer was not a great defender, he had terrific court awareness and (as noted in the previous bullet) our strategy mitigated his deficiencies.

We are certainly a more talented team than the 2010 team player by player. Nobody on that team was as talented as Okafor, and I'd argue that Winslow and Tyus Jones are more talented than anyone besides maybe Singler. But we are not going to be as big or as experienced or as good defensively as that team ultimately was.

Right now, despite looking like a very different team positionally than last year's squad, I'm concerned that we're heading towards a similar type of team in that we are very dependent upon scoring at an obscene rate to win. Aside from the Wisconsin game (which may be more to do with the matchups, as Wisconsin doesn't have the athleticism on the perimeter to sufficiently punish our guards defensively), we haven't really looked good defensively this year. And even in the Wisconsin game, it was more our ridiculous offensive efficiency (fueled in part by some unsustainable shooting) that led us to that awesom victory, as Wisconsin was still pretty efficient offensively in that game.

There just seems to be something missing with either our preparation or execution defensively. We've not played very well on that end for several games now, and have played fairly poorly in the last 2 games.

this a a nit pick, as I agree with 99% of this...but I'm not sure if anyone whom I've seen at Duke has been more talented as Scheyer in methodically breaking down a defense...JW and TJ may have greater speed and different abilities, but more talented I really don't think so...depends on your definition.

[CDu]

this a a nit pick, as I agree with 99% of this...but I'm not sure if anyone whom I've seen at Duke has been more talented as Scheyer in methodically breaking down a defense...JW and TJ may have greater speed and different abilities, but more talented I really don't think so...depends on your definition.

In terms of athleticism/all-around skill set/recruiting rank/draft stock, all three of our key freshmen are more highly-rated players than Scheyer. I certainly agree that Scheyer's feel for the game and "bball IQ" were second to only maybe Battier though. But yeah, it's all in what the definition is, no disagreement there.

[Jeffrey]

I think Cook and Jefferson are clear leaders. Unfortunately, I don't think it is on-court leadership that is the problem. The last few games have looked like we don't know how to make adjustments and we don't have good awareness of where to be defensively. That is, unfortunately (or maybe fortunately) a coaching issue and not a leadership issue.

There just seems to be something missing with either our preparation or execution defensively. We've not played very well on that end for several games now, and have played fairly poorly in the last 2 games.

I strongly agree! Player departure gets significant and appropriate attention, but the loss of Collins and Wojo should not be understated, IMO. I think we had the best coaching staff in college hoops 5 years ago, not even close. But, it's hard to make that argument now.

When the talking heads, have better adjustment ideas than your coaching staff, at halftime, then something is materially wrong. How can you be impressed with the halftime adjustments, time out utilizations, etc. our coaches made the last two games? Why wouldn't young Freshman lack confidence when the greatest coach of all-time basically says he cannot figure out what to do?

[Furniture]

I was able to see my first game against NC State. I was struck by two things: This team has few players who are quick, natural defenders, truly talented at defense. Especially in the backcourt. And it does not appear to have lights out 3 point shooters with releases that are hard to block

I have not seen Louisville yet this year, but if they have a team built around their typical template, the chances of winning this weekend are very low.

How to best use the talent on hand, that is the question. If Rasheed could consistently play according to his strengths, he could make somewhat of a difference. But when you have two guards that are on the smaller and slower side, that is a difficult problem to solve. Tinkering can help, but it is rare that such a weakness can be fully compensated for by scheme adjustments.

I think when Sheed plays to the script he does really well. I think he has deviated from it the last couple of games because he sees the rest of the team not playing well. He needs to keep his head.

[mr. synellinden]

In terms of athleticism/all-around skill set/recruiting rank/draft stock, all three of our key freshmen are more highly-rated players than Scheyer. I certainly agree that Scheyer's feel for the game and "bball IQ" were second to only maybe Battier though. But yeah, it's all in what the definition is, no disagreement there.


More highly rated as you noted, but I would trade freshman Tyus for senior Scheyer in about .00001 seconds. I would trade freshman Justise for junior Singler in .00002 seconds.

[arnie]

More highly rated as you noted, but I would trade freshman Tyus for senior Scheyer in about .00001 seconds. I would trade freshman Justise for junior Singler in .00002 seconds.

Absolutely on both points. S&S won huge games for us as upperclass men. Wish we could go back to that formula, but guess that ship has sailed.

[CDu]

More highly rated as you noted, but I would trade freshman Tyus for senior Scheyer in about .00001 seconds. I would trade freshman Justise for junior Singler in .00002 seconds.

Absolutely, which was part of my point. Sometimes experience and savvy trump talent.

[gurufrisbee]

More highly rated as you noted, but I would trade freshman Tyus for senior Scheyer in about .00001 seconds. I would trade freshman Justise for junior Singler in .00002 seconds.

Winslow for Singler? Sure.

Tyus for Scheyer? Not right now.

We're not playing well right now and that does have a "sky is falling" affect around parts like these, but when the basics like 'get back on defense' aren't even close to being done - those are fundamentals and big problems. Can't tell you how many times I was yelling at the TV last night because we just stood around and let them run past us down the floor waiting for the long outlet. All the talent in the world is meaningless if your experience and basketball IQ is too low to stop the really easy stuff.

Oops - just realized I read the trades wrong. You want the experienced guys. I agree.

[mgtr]

While I agree that Scheyer was great as a junior and senior, he got a lot of negative press on these boards as a freshman and sophomore. I always liked him, but many had the attitude that he was a slow, white, long-necked Jew, so what could you expect. As a senior he certainly showed that you could expect quite a lot. If I recall correctly, in the early part of the season he led the nation in assist to turnovers. As others have pointed out, in 2010 we had an upperclass-led team, and that made a difference.

[_Gary]

...but many had the attitude that he was a slow, white, long-necked Jew, so what could you expect.

What the hell? Come on. I never remember reading anyone here that made that kind of racist comment. Him being a Jew was never once mentioned in any discussion I can remember here at DBR. If they were, I missed them completely because I think I'd have remembered that.

[lotusland]

This top ten freshmen list seems a bit dated now...

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6329266/slideshow/389408#slide-0

[mgtr]

What the hell? Come on. I never remember reading anyone here that made that kind of racist comment. Him being a Jew was never once mentioned in any discussion I can remember here at DBR. If they were, I missed them completely because I think I'd have remembered that.

I do remember that post, though it was only written once that I recall, so "many" was an overstatement. I don't think that it was meant as criticism as much as a characterization of an improbable point guard who was very successful. My point was that prior to his junior year, he was not highly regarded on this board, but the comment that I referenced was made later, after the national championship.

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

I do remember that post, though it was only written once that I recall, so "many" was an overstatement. I don't think that it was meant as criticism as much as a characterization of an improbable point guard who was very successful. My point was that prior to his junior year, he was not highly regarded on this board, but the comment that I referenced was made later, after the national championship.


Then why state it like that if it was a sarcastic remark most likely aimed at Gotlieb? You made the whole board out to be racist jew haters that don't like slow white PGS... I for one love slow white PGS, and I had no clue that Jon was Jewish until he graduated and the talk about him playing in Israel started circling. As far as I remember everyone liked him for his intangibles early on and then we adored him for his versatility when he became a Senior.

[Jeffrey]

This top ten freshmen list seems a bit dated now...

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6329266/slideshow/389408#slide-0

Still seems solid to me. IMO, we have the best player in the country and two other Freshman capable of starting for a Final Four team. However, when the best player in the country is frequently caught out of position on D, repeatedly looking at the coaching staff with a WTF look, then I think the coaching staff is more the issue. Relationship building is extremely powerful with upperclassmen, but a more X's & O's approach may have more short-term (two months from now) success with a player you only coach for months.

Wojo frequently did not get the respect he deserved coaching bigs. I'd love for Wojo to still be here spending this year with the best player in the country. Okafor's offensive skills are phenomenal, but how much time do you think his high school coaches spent with him on D? How much time does it appear Duke has?

[mgtr]

Then why state it like that if it was a sarcastic remark most likely aimed at Gotlieb? You made the whole board out to be racist jew haters that don't like slow white PGS... I for one love slow white PGS, and I had no clue that Jon was Jewish until he graduated and the talk about him playing in Israel started circling. As far as I remember everyone liked him for his intangibles early on and then we adored him for his versatility when he became a Senior.

Gotlieb? Why would I be addressing any remark on a Duke board to or about Gotlieb? Neither he nor Davis enter my thoughts any more than Rumplestiltskin (ie, not very often).

[gumbomoop]

I got onto a Tyus-focus over on the "Does anyone else think" thread, but my point there is more relevant, long-range, here.

Our emotional leaders are and should be Quinn and Amile.

Our effectiveness leader must -- must -- be Tyus. He's been handed the reins to run the team by the staff, and Quinn has signed on, willingly relinquishing a role he seemed primed for when he decided to come to Duke.

Tyus has to play smartly and relentlessly, mostly as distributor but sometimes for several possessions as scorer, including getting to FT-line.

When Tyus is off, the team is off, confused, ineffective.

[Kedsy]

This top ten freshmen list seems a bit dated now...

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6329266/slideshow/389408#slide-0

Why?

[Bob Green]

I think when Sheed plays to the script he does really well. I think he has deviated from it the last couple of games because he sees the rest of the team not playing well. He needs to keep his head.

While I agree with your point, I feel compelled to point out that is easier said than done because Rasheed Sulaimon is an emotional player. He gets fired up and feeds off his own energy. Sulaimon is easily my favorite player on this year's team because of his fiery disposition. Is he our best player? No, not by a long shot. But he is the player I most enjoy seeing on the court.

[Rich]

Absolutely, which was part of my point. Sometimes experience and savvy trump talent.

There were a lot of great players who wore Duke uniforms that weren't that great as underclassmen. Hurley, Battier, Nolan Smith, Singler, Scheyer, just to name a few. These were all guys who blossomed once they were in K's system for a few years. Obviously, Okafor will not be around next year, but if Tyus and Justise stay a few more years then I think they will make up a nucleus of a great team.

I watched Tyus play in high school and, based on those and his earlier games this year, he has a tremendous basketball IQ. He will be a great player if he decides to stay in school. Winslow is a freak athlete who needs to be more consistent. Again, he has swagger and will be a great player in K's system, but it's going to take a few years. They both strike me as leaders in different ways and I think they would be the nucleus of a great team in 2 years, much like the 2010 team, but the obvious and big question is whether they will stick around.

[Bob Green]

There were a lot of great players who wore Duke uniforms that weren't that great as underclassmen. Hurley, Battier, Nolan Smith, Singler, Scheyer, just to name a few.

Kyle Singler was great as a freshman! He started 34 games averaging 13.3 points, 5.8 rebounds and 1.4 assists per game.

[Rich]

Kyle Singler was great as a freshman! He started 34 games averaging 13.3 points, 5.8 rebounds and 1.4 assists per game.

OK, I stand corrected on the stats, but I still think he was so much more valuable as an upperclassman. If I remember correctly, his stats dipped his senior year, but he was huge as a junior.

[CDu]

I got onto a Tyus-focus over on the "Does anyone else think" thread, but my point there is more relevant, long-range, here.

Our emotional leaders are and should be Quinn and Amile.

Our effectiveness leader must -- must -- be Tyus. He's been handed the reins to run the team by the staff, and Quinn has signed on, willingly relinquishing a role he seemed primed for when he decided to come to Duke.

Tyus has to play smartly and relentlessly, mostly as distributor but sometimes for several possessions as scorer, including getting to FT-line.

When Tyus is off, the team is off, confused, ineffective.

I can cosign this completely. The team's offense seems to very much ebb and flow with Tyus Jones. From game to game, different other players may be more or less effective, but I don't think it is any coincidence that the offensive efficiency has slipped in concurrence with Tyus Jones' recent struggles.

Where the leadership side comes from is related to the emotional balance of the team. Keeping them focused on the task at hand and not getting too high or too low emotionally. Talking about assignments defensively and making sure the gameplan is understood by everyone, and helping identify when/how someone is off the plan. That's the role for Cook and Jefferson as veteran leaders. But ultimately the offensive execution is largely driven by Tyus Jones and his ability to run the offense.

[CDu]

OK, I stand corrected on the stats, but I still think he was so much more valuable as an upperclassman. If I remember correctly, his stats dipped his senior year, but he was huge as a junior.

Well, I think "value" is a loaded term. Yes, Singler improved his production each year from freshman through junior year. His numbers did suffer slightly as a senior, but not by a ton. But as a freshman (and to some degree as a sophomore as well), he was our only effective interior player. So he may actually have been just as valuable as a freshman and sophomore as he was as a junior (and perhaps moreso than he was as a senior), even though he was not quite as productive. Regardless, relative to the more common development path, Singler was much more effective as a freshman than most of those other guys were as freshmen.

Though I would note that Scheyer was actually also failry similar from freshman through junior year. It wasn't until his senior year that he really took off in productivity. And even then, that was largely due to greater minutes and usage rate rather than improved efficiency/effectiveness. His FG% was nearly identical (39.9%) as a senior (39.9%) as it was as a freshman (39.8%), and his 3pt% was only slightly better as a senior (38.3%) than as a freshman (36.5%), and slightly worse than it was as a sophomore or junior (both in the upper 38% range). The one thing that Scheyer did drastically improve over his career was his assist percentage, going from 10.6% as a freshman to 25.8% as a senior. Scheyer was certainly better as a senior than as a freshman, but he was remarkably consistent and important from freshman through junior year, too.

[Jeffrey]

While I agree with your point, I feel compelled to point out that is easier said than done because Rasheed Sulaimon is an emotional player. He gets fired up and feeds off his own energy. Sulaimon is easily my favorite player on this year's team because of his fiery disposition. Is he our best player? No, not by a long shot. But he is the player I most enjoy seeing on the court.

Hi Bob,

Is your dog's name Hurley?

Why reinvent the wheel? It might be a good time for Rasheed to be shown a video of his court demeanor.

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

Gotlieb? Why would I be addressing any remark on a Duke board to or about Gotlieb? Neither he nor Davis enter my thoughts any more than Rumplestiltskin (ie, not very often).

Because Hes the one that started that narrative, but I was more trying to figure out why you stated your point like that, but maybe I just read it wrong. Next play

[Jeffrey]

Well, I think "value" is a loaded term. Yes, Singler improved his production each year from freshman through junior year. His numbers did suffer slightly as a senior, but not by a ton. But as a freshman (and to some degree as a sophomore as well), he was our only effective interior player. So he may actually have been just as valuable as a freshman and sophomore as he was as a junior (and perhaps moreso than he was as a senior), even though he was not quite as productive. Regardless, relative to the more common development path, Singler was much more effective as a freshman than most of those other guys were as freshmen.

Though I would note that Scheyer was actually also failry similar from freshman through junior year. It wasn't until his senior year that he really took off in productivity. And even then, that was largely due to greater minutes and usage rate rather than improved efficiency/effectiveness. His FG% was nearly identical (39.9%) as a senior (39.9%) as it was as a freshman (39.8%), and his 3pt% was only slightly better as a senior (38.3%) than as a freshman (36.5%), and slightly worse than it was as a sophomore or junior (both in the upper 38% range). The one thing that Scheyer did drastically improve over his career was his assist percentage, going from 10.6% as a freshman to 25.8% as a senior. Scheyer was certainly better as a senior than as a freshman, but he was remarkably consistent and important from freshman through junior year, too.

Hi,

How would you factor position changes into your analysis?

[gumbomoop]

I can cosign this completely.

You darn well better, as it was your idea originally [well, at least as far back as the Miami post-game thread].

So, cards on the table, credit where credit is due, it was CDu's comment....


This team seems to go as Tyus Jones goes, and right now he is is a funk.

.... that set me to thinking about Tyus's importance and "effectiveness leadership." [Is he also the "effectiveness leader" on D? Have to think about that.]

I realize other posters even before the season began may well have been high on Tyus. But if we falter occasionally from here on out because Tyus funks it, blame CDu. Transitive property, or some such.

ETA: No idea what that "V" is at top. Mystical auto-incorrect??

[CDu]

Hi,

How would you factor position changes into your analysis?

For Scheyer? Absolutely, his switch to PG late in his junior year (not that it greatly changed things as a junior, but definitely as a senior) undoubtedly factored into his development. He always valued the ball, but as a senior he not only avoided turnovers (actually did it better as a senior than in any other year, despite the added responsibility in playmaking) but he bumped his assist rate 10 percentage points from 15.7% to 25.8%. That's pretty spectacular. So while he remained largely the same player otherwise offensively, he became a much better playmaker as a senior.

Not sure if that really answers your question. I think my main point in the previous post was to corroborate the idea that Singler (and to a lesser degree Scheyer) were pretty impactful even as freshmen, and thus probably didn't really fit in the previous poster's list. Smith, Shelden Williams, and to a lesser degree Battier were much less "great" as freshmen comparatively.

[lotusland]

Why?I meant Tyus and Justise specifically. I don't keep up with the draft boards but I assumed that, if the season ended right now they might not still be in the top 10. Certainly some of the luster is 'gone from earlier in the season.

[CDu]

I meant Tyus and Justise specifically. I don't keep up with the draft boards but I assumed that, if the season ended right now they might not still be in the top 10. Certainly some of the luster is 'gone from earlier in the season.

If I were to remake that list right now, Okafor would still be at the top. Towns, Stanley Johnson, D'Angelo Russell, Kevon Looney, and James Blackmon for sure as well. Rashad Vaughn, Jacob Poeltl, and Melo Trimble probably get there too. I guess that's 9.

From there, I'd put Winslow, Tyus Jones, Isaiah Whitehead, and Myles Turner for that 10th spot. So I don't think it is wildly out of line to have those two Duke guys on the top-10 list still.

[Jeffrey]

Not sure if that really answers your question.


Hi,

Yes, thanks, I think it's important to factor position changes (when team composition mandates the change) into player development analysis. In some cases, a handicap may be justified to compensate for playing out of their natural position. I thought the shift to 3 was not easy for Kyle. OTOH, I thought Jon's exceptional shift to 1 (certainly, not his natural position) clearly displayed his brilliant mind for the game!

[lotusland]

Hi,

Yes, thanks, I think it's important to factor position changes (when team composition mandates the change) into player development analysis. In some cases, a handicap may be justified to compensate for playing out of their natural position. I thought the shift to 3 was not easy for Kyle. OTOH, I thought Jon's exceptional shift to 1 (certainly, not his natural position) clearly displayed his brilliant mind for the game!

Id' say Kyle did pretty well at the 3 as evidenced by the Final Four MVP trophy and National Championship.

[Jeffrey]

Id' say Kyle did pretty well at the 3 as evidenced by the Final Four MVP trophy and National Championship.

Hi,

I agree and, as stated, do not think it was easy for Kyle. Did he usually take people off the bounce like Gerald and get decent looks, or were his shots usually more contested? I think Kyle's successful transition to the 3 was largely based upon the fact he is as tough as they come.

Maybe, it's just me? When I think of Kyle, I never think of the word easy and always think of the word tough.