PDA

View Full Version : MBB: Miami 90, Duke 74 Post-Game Thread



Pages : [1] 2

JBDuke
01-13-2015, 11:18 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here. But be sure to avoid violating our Posting Guidelines. No destructive negativity. No team, player, or coach bashing. If you're going to criticize, do it constructively.

Karl Beem
01-13-2015, 11:19 PM
Thank the Goddess! Matt didn't fouled out.

cptnflash
01-13-2015, 11:19 PM
Well I'll own up to my total misread of this game. I said beforehand that I'd be disappointed if we won by less than 20, and stunned if won by less than 10. So color me disappointed, stunned, and seriously recalibrating my expectations for our team this year.

Won't go into details on the various shortcomings as I'm sure those will be adequately covered by others. Enjoy.

Dukehky
01-13-2015, 11:20 PM
Hahahahahahahahahaha. Good one guys. That was a funny practical joke, but enough is enough.

Angel freaking Rodriguez just said that he expected to beat Duke. K, maybe it's time to back off on defense, not really working.

CR9
01-13-2015, 11:20 PM
They shouldn't be ranked.

dukelifer
01-13-2015, 11:21 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here. But be sure to avoid violating our Posting Guidelines. No destructive negativity. No team, player, or coach bashing. If you're going to criticize, do it constructively.

Wow. Not much to say really. Still time to get better. Team will get reset at some point but it could be a brutal start to the season they way the schedule is laid out. This is how you grow as a team. This will be a big test of team leadership- from players and coaches. That was a very bad night.

_Gary
01-13-2015, 11:21 PM
Well I'll own up to my total misread of this game. I said beforehand that I'd be disappointed if we won by less than 20, and stunned if won by less than 10. So color me disappointed, stunned, and seriously recalibrating my expectations for our team this year.

Won't go into details on the various shortcomings as I'm sure those will be adequately covered by others. Enjoy.

Ditto on every bit of that. I expected a blowout for us, and it was reversed.

jdk
01-13-2015, 11:21 PM
I take back my comment about this year being as good as the '99 team.

ChrisP
01-13-2015, 11:22 PM
Many areas to work on but at this point, it's gotta start with Heart and a sense of pride for the letters on the uni. Tonight was just...putrid :mad:

Kjeffrey
01-13-2015, 11:22 PM
Why does it feel like this happens every January? We play some tough teams in the non conference schedule but the wheels come off in conference play. What is the reason for this seemingly annual trend?

Billy Dat
01-13-2015, 11:22 PM
This was an unexpected and unwelcomed result. Rodriguez made Cameron his personal playground. Very disheartening. We are entering our toughest stretch if the season needing some kind of elixir. The ghost of 1000 hath arrived.

Karl Beem
01-13-2015, 11:22 PM
The team that played the last 2 games shouldn't make the tourney.

FerryFor50
01-13-2015, 11:23 PM
First of all, I don't care who Miami lost to this year (E. Kentucky, etc). Miami is a good team. Rodriguez was very good at Kansas St. Jekiri is a HUGE center. McClellan is solid, too.

Not shocked they won.

I am shocked that it was a blowout.

50% FT shooting hurt. A lot.

Runouts on turnovers and long rebounds hurt.

And again, a team hitting unsustainable % from 3. Miami was 50% from 3! They even had a banked 3 and one that bounced off the front of the rim and in.

Larranaga said after the game what a lot of people say about Duke extending the perimeter D - if you have guards that can get by them, there is a lot of open space available after that first line of defense. I think the rule changes/enforcements over the years focusing on hand checking really defeated the idea that you can play that kind of D all game long.

Hopefully they get it sorted out soon.

Duvall
01-13-2015, 11:23 PM
Why does it feel like this happens every January? We play some tough teams in the non conference schedule but the wheels come off in conference play. What is the reason for this seemingly annual trend?

It's...not a trend. What are you talking about?

dbowen
01-13-2015, 11:24 PM
Was that game played at the local rec center?
I've never heard Cameron so quiet.
VERY Sad to see the people lucky enough to be inches from the court standing there in silence for 90% of the game. What a shame.

AIRFORCEDUKIE
01-13-2015, 11:24 PM
We are so good Nov-Dec. Lets shorten the season by a few months.

FerryFor50
01-13-2015, 11:24 PM
This was an unexpected and unwelcomed result. Rodriguez made Cameron his personal playground. Very disheartening. We are entering our toughest stretch if the season needing some kind of elixir. The ghost of 1000 hath arrived.

Mini-Vasquez. Ugh.

SupaDave
01-13-2015, 11:24 PM
Why does it feel like this happens every January? We play some tough teams in the non conference schedule but the wheels come off in conference play. What is the reason for this seemingly annual trend?

Based on some of our reactions to the refs it appears that we are not able to roll with the calls very well. We have to learn to accept those things much better.

OldPhiKap
01-13-2015, 11:25 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here. But be sure to avoid violating our Posting Guidelines. No destructive negativity. No team, player, or coach bashing. If you're going to criticize, do it constructively.

Can we bash idiots who post stupid pre-game predictions that we will run over a conference opponent by 20? Because that is some pretty egregious crap.


Well I'll own up to my total misread of this game. I said beforehand that I'd be disappointed if we won by less than 20, and stunned if won by less than 10. So color me disappointed, stunned, and seriously recalibrating my expectations for our team this year.

Won't go into details on the various shortcomings as I'm sure those will be adequately covered by others. Enjoy.

You said a whole lot more than this, too. I'm being polite when I suggest you please refrain from this in the future,

Duvall
01-13-2015, 11:25 PM
Was that game played at the local rec center?
I've never heard Cameron so quiet.
VERY Sad to see the people lucky enough to be inches from the court standing there in silence for 90% of the game. What a shame.

Yes, *that's* what we should focus on. Sheesh.

NYBri
01-13-2015, 11:25 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here. But be sure to avoid violating our Posting Guidelines. No destructive negativity. No team, player, or coach bashing. If you're going to criticize, do it constructively.

Constructive.

Um. Nice uniforms tonight.

wgl1228
01-13-2015, 11:25 PM
Four years of this on defense. We all know with the talent we have at the guard position we can't play this way. No changes have been made.

FerryFor50
01-13-2015, 11:25 PM
Based on some of our reactions to the refs it appears that we are not able to roll with the calls very well. We have to learn to accept those things much better.

To be fair, I was having trouble rolling with some of those calls, too. :cool:

pfrduke
01-13-2015, 11:25 PM
This has been an issue for several years, but I cannot understand why it is so difficult for us to defend a high screen and correspondingly so difficult for us to execute a successful high screen. We weren't able to do anything to make offense difficult for Miami.

Kjeffrey
01-13-2015, 11:25 PM
First of all, I don't care who Miami lost to this year (E. Kentucky, etc). Miami is a good team. Rodriguez was very good at Kansas St. Jekiri is a HUGE center. McClellan is solid, too.

Not shocked they won.

I am shocked that it was a blowout.

50% FT shooting hurt. A lot.

Runouts on turnovers and long rebounds hurt.

And again, a team hitting unsustainable % from 3. Miami was 50% from 3! They even had a banked 3 and one that bounced off the front of the rim and in.

Larranaga said after the game what a lot of people say about Duke extending the perimeter D - if you have guards that can get by them, there is a lot of open space available after that first line of defense. I think the rule changes/enforcements over the years focusing on hand checking really defeated the idea that you can play that kind of D all game long.

Hopefully they get it sorted out soon.

Don't we have someone playing in the paint who should be able to stop the guard penetration? I thought that was the knock on last year's team. So what's the excuse for this team?

KandG
01-13-2015, 11:26 PM
From the 4th ranked team in the country to the fifth or sixth best team in the ACC...maybe. Wow.

Actually thought, unlike some, there was good "effort" from the players, but not much cohesion, flow, or any sort of defensive awareness. Lot of players look off their game right now. Okafor being a defensive liability has been evident from the beginning of the season, but other teams have been scouting Duke and are attacking ruthlessly now.

Baffling thing to me is how teams like State and Miami have looked so much quicker and more athletic. Duke is a very athletic team, but they're being left in the dust and getting killed in almost every matchup.

Just glad the game I'm attending this season is versus Clemson at home in February, when they'll have hopefully gotten their second wind. They can't possibly lose that, right?

Chicken Little
01-13-2015, 11:26 PM
And in the post game interview, Jim Larranaga describes, in 90 seconds, the road map for beating Duke this year.

Tough, tough loss. Even tougher to see the body language on the team when it counted. Hope this is the low point of this season.

vrob90
01-13-2015, 11:27 PM
The potential for a lot worse to come is staring this team in the face. There's no good explanation for it, but this is one of the worse losses we've seen in a long time. I guess there's not much to say. It is what it is.

Chicago 1995
01-13-2015, 11:27 PM
But like people have noted in regard Peyton Manning's play the last month, Father Time is undefeated.

And there's reason - not just the last two games - to think that he's caught up with our guy too.

We play our best basketball in December far, far too often any more. Withholding judgment on this year (although I'd say it isn't trending well) in 7 of the last 9 years. We're stubbornly adhering to a defensive system that doesn't fit our personnel and doesn't make it easy for them to succeed. Offensively, there's no movement. There's no off the ball action. We don't set many screens. Very little cutting. Lots of standing. Just like last year. We didn't look like a well coaches team very often last year. We haven't over the last four games this year.

I think maybe expectations need to be adjusted. We used to have a big advantage on the sideline, and I'm not sure that's the case anymore.

And yes, of course, I hope to god I'm wrong and the guy that adapted on the fly after Boozer broke his foot in 2001 comes walking through that door. But I'm not holding my breath

FerryFor50
01-13-2015, 11:27 PM
Don't we have someone playing in the paint who should be able to stop the guard penetration? I thought that was the knock on last year's team. So what's the excuse for this team?

Jah doesn't seem to be willing to leave his man and challenge shots. Probably to avoid foul trouble. That's a communication issue, usually.

He's also a freshman. He will hopefully get better over the course of the season.

dbowen
01-13-2015, 11:27 PM
Yes, *that's* what we should focus on. Sheesh.

Well the crowd definitely let the home team down tonight. So yes.

CDu
01-13-2015, 11:27 PM
Loved the way Jefferson responded to his benching by playing his best game of the year. Unfortunately, the rest of the team and the coaching staff didn't seem up to it today.

Kudos to Miami for a great performance. They are well coached and they played really well.

Not sure what has happened, but we are suddenly abysmal defensively. I feel like we haven't played well since the Wisconsin game. Maybe the players bought into their hype? It is just tough to understand how we could go from that good to this bad in such a short time.

I think we should cease the talk about a #1 seed for a bit until we win another game. Louisville offers a big stage to try to right the ship, though I do fear we could (should) be under .500 in conference starting next week.

This team seems to go as Tyus Jones goes, and right now he is in a funk. We need our guard play to be MUCH better on both ends of the floor.

Just an extremely disappointing last few days. Hopefully the staff can find the answers, because we have been outcoached and outplayed by two mediocre teams the past two games.

gofurman
01-13-2015, 11:28 PM
Well I'll own up to my total misread of this game. I said beforehand that I'd be disappointed if we won by less than 20, and stunned if won by less than 10. So color me disappointed, stunned, and seriously recalibrating my expectations for our team this year.

Won't go into details on the various shortcomings as I'm sure those will be adequately covered by others. Enjoy.



Exactly - I thought about those that said "book" this as a guaranteed win. The team needs to eat humble pie. Can't guard quick guards ala Lehigh etc. can't stop penetration for sh:-;t. Part of it is a matchup issue - extended defense versus mature speedy guards. But why not employ the Jon Scheyer 2010 back-off defense when a team has guards too fast for us??

Mother punker that was infuriating to watch. Miami was better. No two ways about it. You can't hope to score more than the opponent when giving up 90!!!!!! We still can't stop good fast guards. Hey coach k - better figure this SAME FREAKIN PROBLEM out. Same thing every year for last few years... Fine until we hit two speedy guards then game over. Eastern Kentucky beat the crap out of Miami!!!!!!

dyedwab
01-13-2015, 11:28 PM
is backloaded - @LOU, PITT, @ SJU, @UND, @UVA. All game we could lose. we started the month with the "easy" part of the schedule. we lost 2 game in that stratch also. When was our last under .500 month? Cause we are.500 right now and don't really have a gimme game left (maybe Pitt?)

This was a disheartening loss.

FerryFor50
01-13-2015, 11:28 PM
Loved the way Jefferson responded to his benching by playing his best game of the year. Unfortunately, the rest of the team and the coaching staff didn't seem up to it today.

Kudos to Miami for a great performance. They are well coached and they played really well.

Not sure what has happened, but we are suddenly abysmal defensively. I feel like we haven't played well since the Wisconsin game. Maybe the players bought into their hype? It is just tough to understand how we could go from that good to this bad in such a short time.

I think we should cease the talk about a #1 seed for a bit until we win another game. Louisville offers a big stage to try to right the ship, though I do fear we could (should) be under .500 in conference starting next week.

This team seems to go as Tyus Jones goes, and right now he is in a funk. We need our guard play to be MUCH better on both ends of the floor.

Just an extremely disappointing last few days. Hopefully the staff can find the answers, because we have been outcoached and outplayed by two mediocre teams the past two games.

Jefferson was huge, for sure.

Jahlil had a quiet 15 and 15. Not a terrible night, but the team also forgot about him on offense for stretches. Too impatient.

tux
01-13-2015, 11:29 PM
Miami coach's post-game comments were very interesting. Basically: Duke pressures so much, they leave a lot of open lanes, and if you have guards who can get by that pressure, you can attack effectively. However, if your guards have to pick up and take contested shots, Duke will score in bunches.

My take: Duke needs to learn to play a more compact man-to-man, especially when a team comes out and proves it can attack Duke's pressure. Otherwise, you give up too many easy baskets, leading to tired legs and little momentum... Both State and Miami generated a lot of layups and dunks. When you're spread out, at some point your rotations will break down --- especially true of a young team.


What a difference two conference games make. Wow! Unexpected, given the way most K teams respond to a loss.

Hopefully, the team and staff will learn from this and improve.

Billy Dat
01-13-2015, 11:29 PM
Mini-Vasquez. Ugh.

The kid was brilliant. We didn't make it too hard, but he was a maestro. What defensive adjustments can we make?

bbosbbos
01-13-2015, 11:29 PM
Our full court D failed. It is time to do half court D like 2010.

dukelifer
01-13-2015, 11:30 PM
First of all, I don't care who Miami lost to this year (E. Kentucky, etc). Miami is a good team. Rodriguez was very good at Kansas St. Jekiri is a HUGE center. McClellan is solid, too.

Not shocked they won.

I am shocked that it was a blowout.

50% FT shooting hurt. A lot.

Runouts on turnovers and long rebounds hurt.

And again, a team hitting unsustainable % from 3. Miami was 50% from 3! They even had a banked 3 and one that bounced off the front of the rim and in.

Larranaga said after the game what a lot of people say about Duke extending the perimeter D - if you have guards that can get by them, there is a lot of open space available after that first line of defense. I think the rule changes/enforcements over the years focusing on hand checking really defeated the idea that you can play that kind of D all game long.

Hopefully they get it sorted out soon.

It got out of hand fast- Duke missed two layups and they went on a run- hitting everything they threw up. I thought Duke had a chance to get it to single digits - but missed throws did not help. Duke got embarrassed and the guys did not respond well. My expectations have been reset. Still think they can turn it around- but K will need to make some changes. Whatever he suggested tonight did not work at all.

BlueandWhite
01-13-2015, 11:30 PM
First of all, I don't care who Miami lost to this year (E. Kentucky, etc). Miami is a good team. Rodriguez was very good at Kansas St. Jekiri is a HUGE center. McClellan is solid, too.

Not shocked they won.

I am shocked that it was a blowout.

50% FT shooting hurt. A lot.

Runouts on turnovers and long rebounds hurt.

And again, a team hitting unsustainable % from 3. Miami was 50% from 3! They even had a banked 3 and one that bounced off the front of the rim and in.

Larranaga said after the game what a lot of people say about Duke extending the perimeter D - if you have guards that can get by them, there is a lot of open space available after that first line of defense. I think the rule changes/enforcements over the years focusing on hand checking really defeated the idea that you can play that kind of D all game long.

Hopefully they get it sorted out soon.

Excellent summary - Rodriguez and Comte had 47 combined points - nonexistent perimeter D for reasons you mention, and both of those Miami guards just grew in confidence as the game wore on. Yes, hope coaches can figure this out soon.

MaxAMillion
01-13-2015, 11:30 PM
Can we bash idiots who post stupid pre-game predictions that we will run over a conference opponent by 20? Because that is some pretty egregious crap.



You said a whole lot more than this, too. I'm being polite when I suggest you please refrain from this in the future,

What difference does it make? People are only allowed to post if their predictions are correct? What if someone predicts Duke to lose and they win, is that ok?

GDuke_03
01-13-2015, 11:31 PM
Jah doesn't seem to be willing to leave his man and challenge shots. Probably to avoid foul trouble. That's a communication issue, usually.

He's also a freshman. He will hopefully get better over the course of the season.

I think that's exactly the issue. He seems very concerned with picking up fouls, both with his own man and when rotating to stop drives. He has the skills to be a rim protector on the back line, which would allow our guards to overplay like we always do, but doesn't seem to want to be aggressive in that way.

Dukehky
01-13-2015, 11:32 PM
Last non-freak out/world is ending loss of the year for me. First really quick turn around for a young team coming off a bad loss. They did not respond. Quinn and Amile did, because they've learned how. From now on though, those kids know everything that can hit you. Learn from it.

That was really, really, really, bad. Tyus and Justise may need to start Saturday's game on the bench to get a little perspective.

jipops
01-13-2015, 11:32 PM
Well I'll own up to my total misread of this game. I said beforehand that I'd be disappointed if we won by less than 20, and stunned if won by less than 10. So color me disappointed, stunned, and seriously recalibrating my expectations for our team this year.



I was wrong too. I said in the pre-game thread that it would be close.

Other than that I thought it was fairly predictable. Angel went nuts and defense was non-existent.

Rich
01-13-2015, 11:32 PM
Jah doesn't seem to be willing to leave his man and challenge shots. Probably to avoid foul trouble. That's a communication issue, usually.

He's also a freshman. He will hopefully get better over the course of the season.

I'm sure someone can pull up a post from last season when the same thing was said about Jabari, which never really happened. Although Coach K talked about simplifying things this year, it is evident that Duke's defensive schemes require a few seasons to get used to. The makeup of youth in college basketball these days doesn't allow for that in the Duke system.

CameronDuke
01-13-2015, 11:33 PM
We are never as good or bad as we think we are. Jah can be an All-American still.

But that game overall was alarmingly nauseating to watch. Coach K looked uncomfortable most of the 2nd half.

I'm very nervous to face Louisville on the road Saturday given our last two games and the performance our defense has displayed.

DevilWearsPrada
01-13-2015, 11:33 PM
Congratulations to Coach L and Miami hurricanes. They played with heart and hustle and dominated the game.

ALL the hype with Coach K 1K is very overwhelming

And now after the loss to Miami at home, the Coach K 1K show on Espn2 follows.

NExt game is Louisville.

Coach K is on Duke Radio now. so sad

OldPhiKap
01-13-2015, 11:33 PM
What difference does it make? People are only allowed to post if their predictions are correct? What if someone predicts Duke to lose and they win, is that ok?

Guaranteeing a win over a conference opponent by 20 points is assenine. If you don't see that, I can't help you.

FerryFor50
01-13-2015, 11:34 PM
I'm sure someone can pull up a post from last season when the same thing was said about Jabari, which never really happened. Although Coach K talked about simplifying things this year, it is evident that Duke's defensive schemes require a few seasons to get used to. The makeup of youth in college basketball these days doesn't allow for that in the Duke system.

Well, Jabari was playing out of position on defense last year. He wasn't a 5, but had to play there out of necessity.

Jah is a natural 5, so his adjustment should be easier than Parker. But time is ticking, for sure.

OldSchool
01-13-2015, 11:34 PM
Our bigs starting with Jah on the defensive end need to focus mentally much more on reading the offense and moving more quickly and with more energy. We are just being caught out of position far too much on basic pick and roll and dribble penetration.

We need to value possessions more. It seems like offense came so easily to this team early in the season that they got the impression anything they do turns to gold. Now in conference play as opponents have had half a season to figure themselves out, we need to work harder for better shots.

Jah is money down low, but we need to get more creative in getting him the ball in good spots. We need to do more than just give him a basic entry pass while everyone else watches him go against a double team pushing him away from the block. Let's try feeding him rolling off the pick and see if he can use one dribble to get to the rim or find an open teammate when the defense rotates to block his path. Also, when Jah is double-teamed he needs to be able to pass over the defense to someone under the rim, not just pass it to a guard or dribble out away from the basket.

CDu
01-13-2015, 11:34 PM
Can we bash idiots who post stupid pre-game predictions that we will run over a conference opponent by 20? Because that is some pretty egregious crap.



You said a whole lot more than this, too. I'm being polite when I suggest you please refrain from this in the future,

Let's be fair: his comments had NOTHING to do with what happened tonight. Focus your frustration where it should be focused.

jipops
01-13-2015, 11:35 PM
We are never as good or bad as we think we are.

This so true. And something we always, always forget...every. single. season.

FerryFor50
01-13-2015, 11:35 PM
Guaranteeing a win over a conference opponent by 20 points is assenine. If you don't see that, I can't help you.

We beat L'ville by 20 - mark it down. (I keed, I keed)

tux
01-13-2015, 11:37 PM
Guaranteeing a win over a conference opponent by 20 points is assenine. If you don't see that, I can't help you.

Dude. It's pointless to argue about this. Folks make bold predictions all the time. Are you suggesting that prediction led to our loss? Wait. You didn't wash your lucky Duke T-shirt before the game did you ?!?

Kfanarmy
01-13-2015, 11:38 PM
This D just doesn't work against good guards. On the other hand, having folks standing four feet away from a three point shooter, daring them to hit the three, doesn't work either. Can't sit there and watch the blow by, or attempt/foul over and over and over and over and not adjust the defense. Bring it back just inside the three point line and make them earn that interior position. Familiarity in conference play has that D completely figured out and without the precision of upperclassmen, it is very difficult. Just Unbelievable. Very disappointing to see such little adjustment in D during second half. Effort was there on the court. Asking guys to play harder doing what isn't working doesn't cut it.

Not sure if they got scatterbrained or what there in from 2:30 to 1:00 left, but committed three or four incredibly ugly turnovers.

I know they are young, but wow, I don't think this one is just on the team. Of course hitting a free throw might help. Then again, I thought this team would be 4-5 threes better per game. Poor FT shooting and poor outside shooting is a tough combination to overcome, add giving up 67% shooting in the half makes for a pretty predictable outcome.

FerryFor50
01-13-2015, 11:38 PM
I mentioned that Rodriguez, Jekiri and McClellan were pretty solid for Miami.

Looking at the stats, I realized that Manu Lecomte also destroyed us - 23 points, 11 FTA. He averages 9 ppg.

Guess what his career high is now? #bootsythornton

Kjeffrey
01-13-2015, 11:39 PM
It got out of hand fast- Duke missed two layups and they went on a run- hitting everything they threw up. I thought Duke had a chance to get it to single digits - but missed throws did not help. Duke got embarrassed and the guys did not respond well. My expectations have been reset. Still think they can turn it around- but K will need to make some changes. Whatever he suggested tonight did not work at all.


I'm sure someone can pull up a post from last season when the same thing was said about Jabari, which never really happened. Although Coach K talked about simplifying things this year, it is evident that Duke's defensive schemes require a few seasons to get used to. The makeup of youth in college basketball these days doesn't allow for that in the Duke system.

I don't know much about the NBA but it sure doesn't seem like players get drafted very often based on their defensive prowess, I can't help but see a connection between Duke's decline in defense over the past few years and our recruitment of the "one and dones."

AIRFORCEDUKIE
01-13-2015, 11:39 PM
Usually after bad losses or a bad stretch Coach K will do something to light a fire. Maybe benching the freshman would be a good thing for the start of the loisville game. Have Quinn, Sheed, Jones, Amile and Plumlee start and let that fire build in the freshmans bellys as Marshall plays tough until the tv timeout.


I kept thinking that having a Ryan Kelly would be really helpful to this team.

CDu
01-13-2015, 11:40 PM
I mentioned that Rodriguez, Jekiri and McClellan were pretty solid for Miami.

Looking at the stats, I realized that Manu Lecomte also destroyed us - 23 points, 11 FTA. He averages 9 ppg.

Guess what his career high is now? #bootsythornton

Yeah Lecompte and Rodriguez look and play fairly similar (at least from the rafters view), so it is understandable that he would get overlooked and/or swept into Rodriguez.

91devil
01-13-2015, 11:40 PM
The break after the win against Wisconsin really blew us up. We lost the "mojo", and really haven't played that well since.

I'd like to see us try a little zone so as to limit the dribble penetration. It has been suggested by many others.

Rich
01-13-2015, 11:40 PM
This D just doesn't work against good guards. On the other hand, having folks standing four feet away from a three point shooter, daring them to hit the three, doesn't work either. Can't sit there and watch the blow by, or attempt/foul over and over and over and over and not adjust the defense. Bring it back just inside the three point line and make them earn that interior position. Familiarity in conference play has that D completely figured out and without the precision of upperclassmen, it is very difficult. Just Unbelievable. Very disappointing to see such little adjustment in D during second half. Effort was there on the court. Asking guys to play harder doing what isn't working doesn't cut it.

Not sure if they got scatterbrained or what there in from 2:30 to 1:00 left, but committed three or four incredibly ugly turnovers.

I know they are young, but wow, I don't think this one is just on the team. Of course hitting a free throw might help. Then again, I thought this team would be 4-5 threes better per game. Poor FT shooting and poor outside shooting is a tough combination to overcome, add giving up 67% shooting in the half makes for a pretty predictable outcome.

Yes, my point exactly!

wgl1228
01-13-2015, 11:42 PM
Anybody able to give us a quick summary of K's radio interview tonight?

dukepsy1963
01-13-2015, 11:43 PM
Tonights game decided it for me. We have driven to Cameron twice for our guys this season, but that looks like it's gonna be it. Too expensive to buy tickets, car expenses, hotel, etc. and then be treated to sorry play I saw tonight. My expectations were too high this year, I guess.:( I just hope they have a decent year here on out. That's all.

Kjeffrey
01-13-2015, 11:45 PM
How can a team with nine McDonald's All Americans, including the potential POY, lose two games in a row while a team in the same conference with ZERO All Americans is undefeated?

gcashwell
01-13-2015, 11:45 PM
Four years of this on defense. We all know with the talent we have at the guard position we can't play this way. No changes have been made.

This is what I came to post. We need drastic changes. Zone or something. I feel like our coaches aren't trying. I'm sure they are, but the changes aren't visible. The best change we did (platooning last year) was stopped for some unknown reason.

jv001
01-13-2015, 11:46 PM
And in the post game interview, Jim Larranaga describes, in 90 seconds, the road map for beating Duke this year.

Tough, tough loss. Even tougher to see the body language on the team when it counted. Hope this is the low point of this season.

And he said it didn't take much coaching to get it done. Not in those exact words but that's what he meant. GoDuke!

FerryFor50
01-13-2015, 11:46 PM
Regarding defense, the last couple games Duke has been slumping on offense. 1.032 against NCSU. 1.015 against Wake. They've been turning it over more. 15 tonight. 10 against NCSU (which isn't awful). 14 against Wake.

I think the poor offense is contributing to poor defense. Lower energy, especially when you actually play a good defensive set and they either hit a tough shot, a touch foul is called or they get an offensive board, which happened several times tonight.

The wheels are wobbling, but I don't think they're off yet.

NYBri
01-13-2015, 11:47 PM
I have reset expectations.

I am rooting to make the dance. I honestly think that may not happen if we don't change something in the approach.

Definition of insanity, or, in this case, crashing seasons is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

This is going on four years now of that form of insanity.

tux
01-13-2015, 11:48 PM
Yes, my point exactly!

I agree as well. It's not just the intensity of conference play, but the coaches are very familiar with each others' systems. When you're #2 or #4 in the country, you're not quite as concerned with breaking down the opponent's tendencies. (I.e., let's just play our game.) But, I'm sure both State and Miami were super-motivated to scout Duke... and it showed in how they attacked our defense. Both Gottfried and Larranaga said that Duke is very talented but very young, and they saw some "freshman moments" despite the talent.

I think we bounce back this weekend and play much better.

CameronBornAndBred
01-13-2015, 11:48 PM
I think we should cease the talk about a #1 seed for a bit until we win another game.
You can leave off the last 8 words.
Not being negative, just realistic. Still lots of basketball left to play, but I don't plan on us playing in March as a one. We can still have a great run in the tourney, regardless. (IF we find answers on defense and communicate.)

gep
01-13-2015, 11:48 PM
Folks talk about going back to the 2010 defense. Well... we've got one of the kingpins of the 2010 team sitting on the coach's bench. Maybe he can help?:confused:

ChillinDuke
01-13-2015, 11:48 PM
[turns off tv]

[listens to silence]

[takes deep breath/sigh]

[goes to bed]

- Chillin

meloveduke
01-13-2015, 11:48 PM
We have not played good in 2015.... Everyone got used on Dee. I don't know how many times I saw Duke reaching for a steal and then blow by. Constantly behind our man instead of between him and the basket. Missing shots is one thing, but allowing the other team to have open shots and layups cant happen. If these guys dont change how the defend, its going to be a really long 2nd have to the year and short tourney.......

#benchthewholeteamdressmanagers

jacone21
01-13-2015, 11:48 PM
The wheels are wobbling, but I don't think they're off yet.

Sounds like a 4 year old shopping cart at K-Mart.

CoSprings
01-13-2015, 11:49 PM
Can't remember a time that Duke came off an embarrassing loss with a humiliating home defeat to an unranked team. Vegas had a 15 point line on this game, we lost by double digits.

Simply, K stubbornly overplays on D and we don't have the athletes/veterans to do it. He refuses to make adjustments and we continue to follow a 5 year pattern of peaking in November and teams figuring us out, with little to no adjustments. For the second straight year we have no on-court leadership.

Jahlil continues to drift out way to much on D and does not appear to be in the greatest of shape. We can't defend the high ball screen for the fifth year in a row. We get gutted by quick guards for the fifth year in a row. Our best player is very inadequate on defense for the fifth year in a row. And, no adjustments are made. How strange to say that we seem to play our best defense with Plumlee in the game. I'd love to see Jah and Marshall in at the same time, at least we would protect the paint for the first time in five years.

That may be one of the worst losses in the last 15 years of Duke basketball. No-one is ever above criticism. It's past time we start asking tough questions about the coaching staff. K refuses to adjust his defense to his talent level, it's a pattern and yet we will come out Saturday and see the exact same thing, and experience a third straight loss. Duke basketball is trending down....

KandG
01-13-2015, 11:49 PM
From Laura Keeley: K "we have good effort. Our guys came to play, they practice well. We're just not very confident"

That's what was strange about this game. Looked like talented players really giving their all on the court, but getting some bad breaks, doing some dumb things, getting outplayed by a well-coached team, and visibly hanging their heads when things didn't go their way.

The backloaded schedule in January may be a blessing in disguise. Can't really back their way into a few confidence-boosting wins over lackluster teams. Have to pick themselves up in hostile environments versus quality opponents.

MaxAMillion
01-13-2015, 11:50 PM
How can a team with nine McDonald's All Americans, including the potential POY, lose two games in a row while a team in the same conference with ZERO All Americans is undefeated?

How did UK lose 10 games in the weak SEC last year with all their all-americans? How did Kansas lose to an 11 win TCU team a couple of years ago? A TCU team who only won two games in conference. Teams can have ups and downs during a season. Duke rarely has these kinds of lows which is what causes the fan tantrums and indifference from the crowd during the game.

I found it both sad and comical how the crowd acted tonight. Either give us the win we deserve or else.

Wheat/"/"/"
01-13-2015, 11:51 PM
Really quick, aggressive play from Miami's guards, both offensively and defensively. They took care of the ball and shot with confidence, finished at the rim in traffic. And got their hands on the ball a lot on defense. Great anticipation. Mentally tough. Confident team. Impressive showing from them all around.

I thought Duke looked rattled by how quick the Miami guards were forcing the pace and took too many forced/rushed 3's and impatiently pushed the tough angles to the rim on their drives. Just need to settle down when it's not there and run some motion while looking to get it in to Okafor more.

While defending dribble penetration is not a team strength, the TO's made the defense look even worse. Starting a play out of position against guards that quick is a hard time for anybody.

Got to take better care of the ball and not force shots as much as they did in this one in the future.

Eternal Outlaw
01-13-2015, 11:51 PM
Changing the system sounds easy but even in a less pressure defense it takes time to get rotations, switches, etc right. It's not like you can switch to a zone and expect to be Syracuse level of comfort with it by tourney time.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be looked at but in frustration it is easy to say change and think it will be better when simply our guards could get burned just as much and we may still be giving up wide opens threes or dunks after easy dish when D collapses.

I think it starts with effort. Half court D isn't good right now but it stands a better chance than the break outs we have been giving up because our guys just aren't getting back. What was Miami's fast break scoring output tonight? 20? A Rasheed turnover is not good of course but what is maddening to me is that they go the length of the floor in an instant and our guys get back in time to toss the ball inbounds. Only time I saw great effort was when they could do a LeBron chase down block.

FerryFor50
01-13-2015, 11:52 PM
How did UK lose 10 games in the weak SEC last year with all their all-americans? How did Kansas lose to an 11 win TCU team a couple of years ago? A TCU team who only won two games in conference. Teams can have ups and downs during a season. Duke rarely has these kinds of lows which is what causes the fan tantrums and indifference from the crowd during the game.

I found it both sad and comical how the crowd acted tonight. Either give us the win we deserve or else.

41 in a row kind of spoils the fanbase, eh? :o

CDu
01-13-2015, 11:53 PM
From Laura Keeley: K "we have good effort. Our guys came to play, they practice well. We're just not very confident"

That's what was strange about this game. Looked like talented players really giving their all on the court, but getting some bad breaks, doing some dumb things, getting outplayed by a well-coached team, and visibly hanging their heads when things didn't go their way.

The backloaded schedule in January may be a blessing in disguise. Can't really back their way into a few confidence-boosting wins over lackluster teams. Have to pick themselves up in hostile environments versus quality opponents.

Yeah the scond half of January has the potential to either be season-saving or soul crushing.

elvis14
01-13-2015, 11:54 PM
I have to admit that I'm at a bit of a loss to explain how we have gone from the best team in the country the night we beat Wisconsin to playing like a mediocre unranked team. I'm trying to not be overly negative but I see what others have seen as....we are a great Nov-Dec team but as other teams grow and get better we seem to regress. I hope it's not a trend and I hope we can get it turned around but right now we out of sorts on both ends of the floor. Two embarrassing losses in a row :(

MCFinARL
01-13-2015, 11:54 PM
Dude. It's pointless to argue about this. Folks make bold predictions all the time. Are you suggesting that prediction led to our loss? Wait. You didn't wash your lucky Duke T-shirt before the game did you ?!?

To be fair, this comes out of discussion in a previous thread in which the predicting poster was very aggressive and persistent about the prediction. So there might be a little venting.


I agree as well. It's not just the intensity of conference play, but the coaches are very familiar with each others' systems. When you're #2 or #4 in the country, you're not quite as concerned with breaking down the opponent's tendencies. (I.e., let's just play our game.) But, I'm sure both State and Miami were super-motivated to scout Duke... and it showed in how they attacked our defense. Both Gottfried and Larranaga said that Duke is very talented but very young, and they saw some "freshman moments" despite the talent.

I think we bounce back this weekend and play much better.

This strikes a chord with me. I assume our coaches are scouting opponents, and at times we see adjustments in terms of assignments, or something like starting Matt Jones instead of Amile Jefferson, but fundamentally, it doesn't seem that our strategies change very much--we just "play our game" whether it is working or not. Maybe Duke needs to stop thinking of itself as a team that is good enough to just play its game regardless of opponent.

Dukehky
01-13-2015, 11:55 PM
Buzz, your girlfriend... Woof!

gcashwell
01-13-2015, 11:55 PM
Changing the system sounds easy but even in a less pressure defense it takes time to get rotations, switches, etc right. It's not like you can switch to a zone and expect to be Syracuse level of comfort with it by tourney time.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be looked at but in frustration it is easy to say change and think it will be better when simply our guards could get burned just as much and we may still be giving up wide opens threes or dunks after easy dish when D collapses.

I think it starts with effort. Half court D isn't good right now but it stands a better chance than the break outs we have been giving up because our guys just aren't getting back. What was Miami's fast break scoring output tonight? 20? A Rasheed turnover is not good of course but what is maddening to me is that they go the length of the floor in an instant and our guys get back in time to toss the ball inbounds. Only time I saw great effort was when they could do a LeBron chase down block.
This has been multiple years. Not two games. There has been ample time for change.

Duke 81 LA
01-13-2015, 11:57 PM
How can a team with nine McDonald's All Americans, including the potential POY, lose two games in a row while a team in the same conference with ZERO All Americans is undefeated?

I am fairly confident we have more McDonalds All Americans than we have post season wins since 2010 and maybe since 2007

BobBender
01-13-2015, 11:58 PM
The on ball pressure can intimidate most teams, especially at Cameron. But those with seasoned guards ( like Miami tonight) , who don't lose their poise, will create easy opportunities after penetrating the perimeter pressure.
I really don't see how this years edition is much different than last year: A superior interior talent ( Okafor=Parker), and right now I'd take Hood over Winslow... Jones is not playing like a super frosh, just a good frosh. Cook and Suliamon are...Cook and Suliamon. The Defensive vulnerablities are similar.
All that said, I expect a season-defining upset of Louisville

jv001
01-13-2015, 11:59 PM
I think if we're going to play it, we should recruit some guards and wings that can play it.:cool: GoDuke!

sagegrouse
01-13-2015, 11:59 PM
Guaranteeing a win over a conference opponent by 20 points is asinine. If you don't see that, I can't help you.

Moreover, if one is gonna stick one's neck out and guarantee a win, how about this sequence? "We're gonna win by 20; I just know we are." "Yeah, well I know I'm woofing, but i feel strongly about it." "Yeah, it's bad form to stick one's neck out so far, but I'm just an idiot basketball fan." "Yeah, I feel strongly, but I've been wrong before -- I think I've been right some of the time." "Oh, just ignore me; I'm ranting."

The actual sequence, however, was dogmatic, dogmatic, and more dogmatic -- especially in the face of other posters who were unhappy. Who the hell wants to be on a Board where such behavior occurs? It is destructive to the DBR community. Sorry -- harsh words -- but we need to have conversations, not just have random posters pound the table.

Oh, I'm pounding the table now? Yeah, well I guess I am.

Kindly,
Sage Grouse

Kjeffrey
01-13-2015, 11:59 PM
I am fairly confident we have more McDonalds All Americans than we have post season wins since 2010 and maybe since 2007

If that is true then it is really sad considering we had six post season wins in 2010.

Chicago 1995
01-13-2015, 11:59 PM
Changing the system sounds easy but even in a less pressure defense it takes time to get rotations, switches, etc right. It's not like you can switch to a zone and expect to be Syracuse level of comfort with it by tourney time.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be looked at but in frustration it is easy to say change and think it will be better when simply our guards could get burned just as much and we may still be giving up wide opens threes or dunks after easy dish when D collapses.

I think it starts with effort. Half court D isn't good right now but it stands a better chance than the break outs we have been giving up because our guys just aren't getting back. What was Miami's fast break scoring output tonight? 20? A Rasheed turnover is not good of course but what is maddening to me is that they go the length of the floor in an instant and our guys get back in time to toss the ball inbounds. Only time I saw great effort was when they could do a LeBron chase down block.

I don't think effort was nearly the problem you do. We played hard a lot of the time. Our guys just aren't capable of pressuring guards like these. We hung our heads at points once it got away from us but we were playing plenty hard when Miami got away from us. We just weren't playing well enough to slow them

As for system changes, that this D wouldn't work shouldn't be such a surprise that we maybe shouldn't have adjusted coming into the season. Between the rule changes and the personnel, we could have put something closer to a pack line in our D theory rather than the extended pressure that hasn't worked in a long time. If we're caught flat footed and surprised the D is a problem, and we're not prepared to make adjustments to the approach, it's failure of the staff born of stubbornness and naivety.

Oriole Way
01-14-2015, 12:00 AM
Why does it feel like this happens every January? We play some tough teams in the non conference schedule but the wheels come off in conference play. What is the reason for this seemingly annual trend?

The one constant is the coaching staff and the defensive and offensive schemes. This is now a clear trend, and it's impossible to blame the players any longer. At some point, the blame has to fall on the coaching staff for failing to recruit the players that can play the defense that Coach K wants, or the blame has to fall on the coaching staff for failing to implement effective defensive philosophies that maximize the talents and skillsets of the rosters they have to work with. Pressure man-to-man defense and overplay for Duke doesn't work any longer. At least when it comes to advancing in the NCAA tournament, which is what Duke strives for. Hasn't for a long time.

During the post-game, Coach Larranaga and Miami's players essentially called out Duke for being easy to prepare for. They were confident they would beat us because of our defensive style of play and defensive flaws. It's time for Coach K to step up and actually adapt. Something he failed to do last season.

Duke 81 LA
01-14-2015, 12:00 AM
I have reset expectations.

I am rooting to make the dance. I honestly think that may not happen if we don't change something in the approach.

Definition of insanity, or, in this case, crashing seasons is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

This is going on four years now of that form of insanity.

I literally emailed the same words to a friend of mine mid game tonight -- about the definition of insanity

weezie
01-14-2015, 12:00 AM
Was at the game and really can't convey how leaden everything was. The endless first half mired in fouls, then the team's inability to simply dribble in the second. Seemed like they had never met each other before tonight.

I have to say, if I were coach, it would begin tomorrow morning with haircuts. No more spoon feeding.

uh_no
01-14-2015, 12:02 AM
Changing the system sounds easy but even in a less pressure defense it takes time to get rotations, switches, etc right. It's not like you can switch to a zone and expect to be Syracuse level of comfort with it by tourney time. Watching the first possessions, it was clear to me we still couldn't get our rotations and switches right. Tyus was lost trying to get around the high ball screen, and people were left open all over the place...open threes, open dunks, times when there were 3 miami's and jahlil around the hoop....case? it wasn't pretty. I'm not advocating major overhauls, but i'm skeptical that anything could be much worse than what we saw tonight.

Peruser
01-14-2015, 12:03 AM
Maybe a respected voice like Larranega making the comments he did will get our staff to stop trying to pound square pegs into round holes.

sagegrouse
01-14-2015, 12:04 AM
From Laura Keeley: K "we have good effort. Our guys came to play, they practice well. We're just not very confident"

That's what was strange about this game. Looked like talented players really giving their all on the court, but getting some bad breaks, doing some dumb things, getting outplayed by a well-coached team, and visibly hanging their heads when things didn't go their way.

The backloaded schedule in January may be a blessing in disguise. Can't really back their way into a few confidence-boosting wins over lackluster teams. Have to pick themselves up in hostile environments versus quality opponents.

I thought the freshmen looked lost. Rasheed had the opposite problem; he did not play especially well because he was hyped beyond all belief.

Who would have thought that Amile would have such a great game in a blowout loss?

Quinn had a statistically good game, but I'm not sure he asserted his leadership as much as he is capable of doing.

jipops
01-14-2015, 12:04 AM
kenpom D rating continuing the plummet now down to 66.

And according to that we're the 4th best team in the ACC... at best.

Duke 81 LA
01-14-2015, 12:05 AM
If that is true then it is really sad considering we had six post season wins in 2010.

Should have been clearer about excluding 2010

But you get the point....

W&LHoo
01-14-2015, 12:06 AM
You guys are freaking out needlessly. I understand the post-loss shame spiral of confusion and bitterness (believe me, that was every season pre-Bennett in Charlottesville, and is still every football season).

The two teams that beat you are two teams that gave us fits too - we just had the benefit of some great clutch shooting and older guys less likely to get rattled. The clear takeaway once you get some distance from these two games is going to be that the middle of the ACC is starting to separate into distinct tiers. NC State and Miami (and maybe Cuse? I'm having trouble gauging them) are the clear tourney teams coming in on the heels of the top tier ranked ACC teams.

In conference, there's no shame - at all - to having off nights and losing to tourney teams. This kind of thing happens. If you want to see us engage in a similar freak out, come to the UVA boards whenever we inevitably lose a game.

uh_no
01-14-2015, 12:07 AM
the dork stats are in...and it ain't pretty

6th in offense
66th in defense

11th overall

MCFinARL
01-14-2015, 12:07 AM
If that is true then it is really sad considering we had six post season wins in 2010.

If we are just counting NCAA wins, it's gotta be true. Last year's team had 6 Mickey D's and no NCAA wins. 2013's had 6 and 3 NCAA wins. 2012's had 7 and no NCAA wins. Haven't looked them up but pretty sure none of those teams had enough ACC tournament wins to make a difference since none of them won the tournament.

Edit--of course I am counting the number on each team, which means I am counting some multiple times. In total between 2009-10 and 2014-15, Duke has had 16 McDonald's All Americans on the team, counting individuals rather than numbers on each team. In that period Duke has won 11 NCAA tournament games (6 in 2010, 2 in 2011, 3 in 2013). If you add ACC tournament games, it makes a big difference because Duke won in 2010 and 11 and was runner up last year--but it's still not a pretty comparison.

Duvall
01-14-2015, 12:08 AM
The two teams that beat you are two teams that gave us fits too - we just had the benefit of some great clutch shooting and older guys less likely to get rattled. The clear takeaway once you get some distance from these two games is going to be that the middle of the ACC is starting to separate into distinct tiers. NC State and Miami (and maybe Cuse? I'm having trouble gauging them) are the clear tourney teams coming in on the heels of the top tier ranked ACC teams.


It'll be a sad NCAA Tournament if teams like NC State and Miami (and the Duke team of this week) are in it.

sagegrouse
01-14-2015, 12:09 AM
The one constant is the coaching staff and the defensive and offensive schemes.

Well, except for losing our two Assistant Head Coaches in the past two years.

Duvall
01-14-2015, 12:09 AM
kenpom D rating continuing the plummet now down to 66.

And according to that we're the 4th best team in the ACC... at best.

But projected to finish no better than 5th.

Kjeffrey
01-14-2015, 12:11 AM
You guys are freaking out needlessly. I understand the post-loss shame spiral of confusion and bitterness (believe me, that was every season pre-Bennett in Charlottesville, and is still every football season).

The two teams that beat you are two teams that gave us fits too - we just had the benefit of some great clutch shooting and older guys less likely to get rattled. The clear takeaway once you get some distance from these two games is going to be that the middle of the ACC is starting to separate into distinct tiers. NC State and Miami (and maybe Cuse? I'm having trouble gauging them) are the clear tourney teams coming in on the heels of the top tier ranked ACC teams.

In conference, there's no shame - at all - to having off nights and losing to tourney teams. This kind of thing happens. If you want to see us engage in a similar freak out, come to the UVA boards whenever we inevitably lose a game.

Appreciate your positive thoughts. However, the frustration comes from a disturbing trend of poor defense and a lack of responsiveness to it over the past few years.

tux
01-14-2015, 12:14 AM
In a weird way, all this post-loss doom has me feeling much more optimistic about this team. I think we still have the pieces to be great. Teams that go on extended winning streaks tend to forget what got them there. Tyus has struggled. Winslow has struggled. Matt too. I still think they can figure things out.

Seeing the adjustments on Saturday will be interesting.

gep
01-14-2015, 12:15 AM
The one constant is the coaching staff and the defensive and offensive schemes. This is now a clear trend, and it's impossible to blame the players any longer. At some point, the blame has to fall on the coaching staff for failing to recruit the players that can play the defense that Coach K wants, or the blame has to fall on the coaching staff for failing to implement effective defensive philosophies that maximize the talents and skillsets of the rosters they have to work with. Pressure man-to-man defense and overplay for Duke doesn't work any longer. At least when it comes to advancing in the NCAA tournament, which is what Duke strives for. Hasn't for a long time.

During the post-game, Coach Larranaga and Miami's players essentially called out Duke for being easy to prepare for. They were confident they would beat us because of our defensive style of play and defensive flaws. It's time for Coach K to step up and actually adapt. Something he failed to do last season.

Seems to me that defensive schemes have been harped on for the last couple of years. Yet the same thing goes on. If I recall correctly, the defensive scheme in 2010 was *changed* to better fit the players on the team. But maybe it had to change since that team was "alarmingly unathletic". Since this team is supposed to be athletic, maybe that's why the defensive scheme is not changing?:confused:

DevilWearsPrada
01-14-2015, 12:16 AM
At least after the Duke Miami game, the ESPN Special on Coach K 1K is really really good. I just don't like it airing after a Duke loss :(

The Coach K Special is very very good!!!!!
Wednesday will be a big practice day and lots of film.

NEXT PLAY (Louisville... lions, and tigers and bears....oh My).

NEXT PLAY !!!

Let's Go Duke!!!

Love Duke!

ICP
01-14-2015, 12:19 AM
I found it both sad and comical how the crowd acted tonight. Either give us the win we deserve or else.

Honestly, this is absurd. The players are lucky not to have been booed after such a dismal, embarrassing performance. I wish the crowd would have let them know that the fans don't appreciate making huge sacrifices ( finacial, time-commitment, etc) to come and see a DUKE team being blown out in its own building by an unranked team.

dyedwab
01-14-2015, 12:28 AM
In his post-game comments, he said that the team lacks confidence, and he attributes it to shots not falling early (and youth in that it effect them that way).

I actually find that alarming. Sometimes the shots won't fall, but if you hustle, communicate, and play tight defense, you can still win. But if focus, effort, and confidence goes away when shots don't go down...

...K has a big job going forward....

jipops
01-14-2015, 12:28 AM
You can leave off the last 8 words.
Not being negative, just realistic. Still lots of basketball left to play, but I don't plan on us playing in March as a one. We can still have a great run in the tourney, regardless. (IF we find answers on defense and communicate.)

At this point, I'm just wanting us to get in.

pfrduke
01-14-2015, 12:38 AM
So, some historical context (this is not going to be an encouraging post). Here is a list of Duke home losses by double digits to unranked opponents since the 1983-84 season:



Miami 90, Duke 74, 1/13/15
Illinois 75, Duke 65, 12/2/95
NC State 77, Duke 60, 1/18/95*
UNC 87, Duke 75, 3/4/90


*Duke also was unranked in this game.

There is a very good argument that, given the relative strengths of the two teams and the final scoring margin, this was the single worst loss in Cameron in the last 30 years. Regardless, we hadn't lost to an unranked team at home by double digits in almost 20 years. I am dumbfounded at how uncompetitive the second half was.

eddiehaskell
01-14-2015, 12:39 AM
Let's not get totally carried away here. This is still the team that beat Wisconsin in Madison, Michigan State and Stanford - all quality wins.

The first thing that must be addressed is sloppy play/giving up at the end of games. This is not Duke basketball no matter what the score is. I'm sick of seeing teams make us look silly at the end of games. This crap makes us look mentally weak and I'm sure it carries over to practice and games.

Okafor - it doesn't seem like he is utilized very effectively. Where's the driving, drawing the defense and dish to the big man? I'm also not totally sure if Okafor is totally comfortable with banging against other big bodies. Maybe he's used to being the biggest guy on the court? Jekiri and Anya are big dudes. A few of his shot attempts were no where near the basket. The double team is definitely giving this team trouble.

Tyus Jones - sorry, but he definitely hasn't looked like a #1 rated high school PG lately. In four ACC games, he has shot 6-27 averaging 5.2 ppg/3.2 apg. That just isn't going to get it done in conference play. He also doesn't seem like an emotional/vocal leader in the Jason Williams/Hurley mold.

Matt Jones - I just haven't seen anything positive yet. Maybe it's a confidence issue or something?

At this point, I'd say my starting lineup would be:

PG - Cook
SG - Sheed (made some mistakes, but shows heart and tries to dig in on defense)
SF - Justise
PF - Amile
C - Okafor

I'm just amazed that nobody has played particularly well in conference play. Who's the leader of this team?

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-14-2015, 12:42 AM
Two lackluster games. I am not as down on our potential as many here are, because really I only see two differences between this team and the team from a month ago:

1) We are missing outside shots. This allows defenses to clog the lane, keeping Jahlil from being at his best - ball in one hand, directing the offense. When we hit, teams move to a spread zone against us and the lanes open for drives and backdoors. Without our jumpers and 3's we have no effective offense.

2) Our young guys suddenly look young. They react too emotionally to both mistakes and good plays. They get frustrated with calls and try to make up for it all on their own. They play poor for 20 minutes and try to win the game back with 3 minutes of good play.

As far as #1 goes... well, I have to figure we will start hitting again. Good shooting is contagious and we have some excellent shooters who are due. Three shots in a row hit bottom and our offense transforms.

For #2, it is surprising because our guys looked so mature early on. Maybe it's that freshman wall, who knows. But, they gotta keep their heads in the game. Either coaches have to get the young guys to dig deep, or Cook and Sheed have to step up, lead by example, and instill confidence on both ends of the court.

With these two things solved, we are a top five team in the country. Without, it will be a long 8 weeks.

Or.... MP3 can channel his inner Z and deliver us from our woes.

DevilWearsPrada
01-14-2015, 12:43 AM
Jason J Williams had alot of good comments and thoughts on ESPN. Jason said Duke needs to find its LEADER and play DEFENSE. And Communicate. It was very clear, that Jason , like all of us was extremely disappointed in the lack of effort and the 2nd half.

And Jason said, that the players, after a bad call or a no call........ need to shake it off......and think NEXT PLAY NEXT PLAY !!!!!

Jason.........Could you do a skype with the Team and give a Positive Talk!!!!

Dukehky
01-14-2015, 12:43 AM
Let's not get totally carried away here. This is still the team that beat Wisconsin in Madison, Michigan State and Stanford - all quality wins.

The first thing that must be addressed is sloppy play/giving up at the end of games. This is not Duke basketball no matter what the score is. I'm sick of seeing teams make us look silly at the end of games. This crap makes us look mentally weak and I'm sure it carries over to practice and games.

Okafor - it doesn't seem like he is utilized very effectively. Where's the driving, drawing the defense and dish to the big man? I'm also not totally sure if Okafor is totally comfortable with banging against other big bodies. Maybe he's used to being the biggest guy on the court? Jekiri and Anya are big dudes. A few of his shot attempts were no where near the basket. The double team is definitely giving this team trouble.

Tyus Jones - sorry, but he definitely hasn't looked like a #1 rated high school PG lately. In four ACC games, he has shot 6-27 averaging 5.2 ppg/3.2 apg. That just isn't going to get it done in conference play. He also doesn't seem like an emotional/vocal leader in the Jason Williams/Hurley mold.

Matt Jones - I just haven't seen anything positive yet. Maybe it's a confidence issue or something?

At this point, I'd say my starting lineup would be:

PG - Cook
SG - Sheed (made some mistakes, but shows heart and tries to dig in on defense)
SF - Justise
PF - Amile
C - Okafor

I'm just amazed that nobody has played particularly well in conference play. Who's the leader of this team?


Tyus and Justise are going to start Louisville on the bench. Well, I would have bet the house on that pre-no confidence post game presser, so who knows. Matt Jones, I totally agree, we need that kid to be a half way viable offensive threat.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-14-2015, 12:44 AM
So, some historical context (this is not going to be an encouraging post). Here is a list of Duke home losses by double digits to unranked opponents since the 1983-84 season:



Miami 90, Duke 74, 1/13/15
Illinois 75, Duke 65, 12/2/95
NC State 77, Duke 60, 1/18/95*
UNC 87, Duke 75, 3/4/90


*Duke also was unranked in this game.

There is a very good argument that, given the relative strengths of the two teams and the final scoring margin, this was the single worst loss in Cameron in the last 30 years. Regardless, we hadn't lost to an unranked team at home by double digits in almost 20 years. I am dumbfounded at how uncompetitive the second half was.

...well, that is disheartening.

Thanks for the perspective

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-14-2015, 12:46 AM
In his post-game comments, he said that the team lacks confidence, and he attributes it to shots not falling early (and youth in that it effect them that way).

I actually find that alarming. Sometimes the shots won't fall, but if you hustle, communicate, and play tight defense, you can still win. But if focus, effort, and confidence goes away when shots don't go down...

...K has a big job going forward....

Ha - K and I agree! I am just 998 wins behind him

NYBri
01-14-2015, 12:48 AM
In his post-game comments, he said that the team lacks confidence, and he attributes it to shots not falling early (and youth in that it effect them that way).

I actually find that alarming.

I, too, find his lack of self awareness a bit alarming, considering....


So, some historical context (this is not going to be an encouraging post). Here is a list of Duke home losses by double digits to unranked opponents since the 1983-84 season:



Miami 90, Duke 74, 1/13/15
Illinois 75, Duke 65, 12/2/95
NC State 77, Duke 60, 1/18/95*
UNC 87, Duke 75, 3/4/90


*Duke also was unranked in this game.

There is a very good argument that, given the relative strengths of the two teams and the final scoring margin, this was the single worst loss in Cameron in the last 30 years. Regardless, we hadn't lost to an unranked team at home by double digits in almost 20 years. I am dumbfounded at how uncompetitive the second half was.

I will be looking for something new on Saturday, but won't be surprised if there is no change in approach.

Coach L sent a loud message to his friend K about how easy it is to prepare for Duke's defense, or lack of it. Wonder if K will hear it.

DevilWearsPrada
01-14-2015, 12:48 AM
Two lackluster games. I am not as down on our potential as many here are, because really I only see two differences between this team and the team from a month ago:


With these two things solved, we are a top five team in the country. Without, it will be a long 8 weeks.

Or.... MP3 can channel his inner Z and deliver us from our woes.


MP3.......... please please channel your inner ZOUBS and deliver us!!!!! Zoubs came alive during the MAryland game, and was the Z BEAST and took over!!!!!!!!!!!! Somebody please take the charge and take over!!!!!!

The Bus is stuck in the Ditch! :(

MaxAMillion
01-14-2015, 12:55 AM
Honestly, this is absurd. The players are lucky not to have been booed after such a dismal, embarrassing performance. I wish the crowd would have let them know that the fans don't appreciate making huge sacrifices ( finacial, time-commitment, etc) to come and see a DUKE team being blown out in its own building by an unranked team.

Right, because nothing else is acceptable. Why stop with booing...why not just fire the entire coaching staff and pull every scholarship. My guess is that the players make quite a few sacrifices themselves....but hey they lost so lets boo them. What if Duke actually went to the NIT one year. What would be appropriate in that case?

pfrduke
01-14-2015, 12:58 AM
So, some historical context (this is not going to be an encouraging post). Here is a list of Duke home losses by double digits to unranked opponents since the 1983-84 season:



Miami 90, Duke 74, 1/13/15
Illinois 75, Duke 65, 12/2/95
NC State 77, Duke 60, 1/18/95*
UNC 87, Duke 75, 3/4/90


*Duke also was unranked in this game.

There is a very good argument that, given the relative strengths of the two teams and the final scoring margin, this was the single worst loss in Cameron in the last 30 years. Regardless, we hadn't lost to an unranked team at home by double digits in almost 20 years. I am dumbfounded at how uncompetitive the second half was.

Relatedly, here is the list of teams that has scored 90 points in Cameron in the last 25 years:



Miami - 90 (1/13/15)
Vermont(!) - 90 (11/24/13)
Wake Forest - 91 (2/22/09) - Duke scored 101; Wake was ranked #8 at the time
Florida State - 96 (2/4/06) - this was an overtime game and FSU had 84 at the end of regulation
Wake Forest - 92 (2/2/05) - Duke scored 102; Wake was ranked #5 at the time
Virginia - 93 (1/15/03) - Duke scored 104
Maryland - 91 (2/27/01) - Maryland was ranked #16; this was the game in which Boozer broke his foot
Maryland - 98 (2/9/00) - Maryland was ranked #23
Maryland - 94 (3/1/95) - Maryland was ranked #6
Virginia - 91 (1/14/95) - this was a double overtime game
Wake Forest - 98 (2/13/93) - Wake was ranked #9
UNC Charlotte(!) - 94 (12/1/90) - Duke scored 111


So 2 unranked opponents accomplished this in the last 2 seasons after only one unranked opponent accomplished the feat in a regulation game in a 23-year period. Yeesh.

eddiehaskell
01-14-2015, 01:00 AM
Tyus and Justise are going to start Louisville on the bench. Well, I would have bet the house on that pre-no confidence post game presser, so who knows. Matt Jones, I totally agree, we need that kid to be a half way viable offensive threat.I'd say the same, but who replaces Justice in the lineup? My beef with Tyus is that I just don't see him as a PG in attack mode - he's just kinda out there. I don't know if that's a skill problem or just a confidence thing that doesn't allow him to play his game. On the other hand, Quinn is in attack mode. Several times it has felt like he's sparking a run, but no one else steps up. His offense has been about the only bright spot in conference play. Granted, it doesn't help when opposing guards are having gret offensive nights themselves.

DevilWearsPrada
01-14-2015, 01:00 AM
Even with 2 losses, that we didn't expect, I Still Love DUKE!!!!

Best Coach! Great Staff! Unbelievable University!

Dig ourselves out of the ditch, and get going again. Like the Taylor Swift song "Shake It Off" !!!

NEXT PLAY !!

UrinalCake
01-14-2015, 01:04 AM
I am on board with starting Rasheed alongside Quinn. The two point guard system just isn't working. We've talked a lot about changing our defensive scheme, but I don't know of any scheme that will let you defend with two small, slow guards. There's just no way to do it. Rasheed on the second team plays hero ball because he knows there are no other scorers, but with the starters he can pick his spots better.

Justise has more or less disappeared. I don't know if he checked out once he saw his name on the draft boards as a projected lottery pick or what, but he needs a reality check.

Amile was a real bright spot. He finally started looking for his shot and it paid off big time. Was open under the basket several other times when Oak was double teamed, they just couldn't or didn't get him the ball.

gumbomoop
01-14-2015, 01:10 AM
This team seems to go as Tyus Jones goes, and right now he is in a funk.

I, too, think Tyus is not just a key, but the key.

This isn't to downplay the more general issue of poor D, and especially inability to stop guard penetration.

Nor to downplay the only thing [in retrospect, how quaint] that worried me a few weeks back: poor FT-shooting by Jahlil, Amile, and Justise. Those 3 were 3-12 tonight, and several of their misses were momentum killers. I continue to think their inability at the line will lose us a/some game/s, but I don't blame tonight's loss on their abysmal FT performance.

I'm discouraged that Rasheed has adopted the "bad Quinn" demeanor of Quinn's previous 3 seasons. Actually very discouraged. On other threads I've contrasted Rasheed's inconsistent handle with that of Luke Kennard, but his general demeanor is bigger problem.

My specific pet peeves, however, give way to CDu's important observation.

uh_no
01-14-2015, 01:22 AM
I am on board with starting Rasheed alongside Quinn.

We had that lineup last year...I'm not sure what the solution is, but reverting to the perimeter defense that was so easily broken down as part of the 116th ranked defense is unlikely to yield much different results this year.

Kedsy
01-14-2015, 01:26 AM
In 2009 we lost 4 of 6 games in late-January/early February, including an embarrassing 74-47 shellacking at the hands of Clemson. Some posters at DBR said it meant we wouldn't get out of the first round. They were wrong. Others said it meant we'd get clobbered at some point in the NCAAT. They were right.

In 2010 we got clobbered at NC State and absolutely sandblasted at Georgetown. A lot of posters at DBR predicted we'd never get out of the first round. They were wrong. Others said it meant we'd get clobbered at some point in the NCAAT. They were wrong too.

Last season we were terrible against Vermont, Clemson, Notre Dame and Wake Forest. Some said it meant we wouldn't get out of the first round. They were right.

Going back before DBR, we had enough bad losses in 1988, 1989, 1990, and 1991 that I'm sure if there was an internet back then, a decent number of DBR posters would have said we'd never get out of the first round. They would have been wrong.

And of course we all know it was "over" in 2001 after Carlos Boozer got hurt and Maryland beat us by double-figures at home.

Bottom line is, how we've played the last two games has little predictive power for how we're going to play down the road. I get that people are disappointed and frustrated, and the fact that we've played poorly for two games means it's possible we'll play poorly in the post-season, but on another level I just don't get why people feel the need to extrapolate one or two bad games into dire doomsday predictions. I just don't understand the point.


You guys are freaking out needlessly. I understand the post-loss shame spiral of confusion and bitterness (believe me, that was every season pre-Bennett in Charlottesville, and is still every football season).

The two teams that beat you are two teams that gave us fits too - we just had the benefit of some great clutch shooting and older guys less likely to get rattled. The clear takeaway once you get some distance from these two games is going to be that the middle of the ACC is starting to separate into distinct tiers. NC State and Miami (and maybe Cuse? I'm having trouble gauging them) are the clear tourney teams coming in on the heels of the top tier ranked ACC teams.

In conference, there's no shame - at all - to having off nights and losing to tourney teams. This kind of thing happens. If you want to see us engage in a similar freak out, come to the UVA boards whenever we inevitably lose a game.

Thanks so much for coming here and delivering one of the few reasonable posts in this thread. I, for one, appreciate it.


If we are just counting NCAA wins, it's gotta be true. Last year's team had 6 Mickey D's and no NCAA wins. 2013's had 6 and 3 NCAA wins. 2012's had 7 and no NCAA wins. Haven't looked them up but pretty sure none of those teams had enough ACC tournament wins to make a difference since none of them won the tournament.

Edit--of course I am counting the number on each team, which means I am counting some multiple times. In total between 2009-10 and 2014-15, Duke has had 16 McDonald's All Americans on the team, counting individuals rather than numbers on each team. In that period Duke has won 11 NCAA tournament games (6 in 2010, 2 in 2011, 3 in 2013). If you add ACC tournament games, it makes a big difference because Duke won in 2010 and 11 and was runner up last year--but it's still not a pretty comparison.

I don't feel like doing the legwork, but I bet it's also true for most top teams, including Kentucky and they've won a lot of NCAAT games with their McD-laden roster. The more McD AAs you have, the more impossible it becomes to have more NCAA wins than McDs.

KandG
01-14-2015, 01:30 AM
I'm discouraged that Rasheed has adopted the "bad Quinn" demeanor of Quinn's previous 3 seasons. Actually very discouraged. On other threads I've contrasted Rasheed's inconsistent handle with that of Luke Kennard, but his general demeanor is bigger problem.



This is why I'm reluctant to start Sheed despite the precipitous dropoff in Tyus' play. Even hyper-talented freshmen as Jabari and Jah go through ups and downs, and upperclassmen have a major role to play in smoothing out swings in emotion and level of play. Last year I was slightly disappointed in Cook and Sulaimon's ability to lead in this respect when the freshmen looked lost or tentative.

This season, Quinn has made major strides and whatever his occasional issues or weaknesses, I think he's reached another level in terms of on court decision-making, leadership and making the most of his strengths. Sheed, though, still seems too impulsive and hyper-emotional, which suits him more to an off-the-bench energy player role.

I would love to see Sheed work out the rough spots in his game but for now, I'm resigned to taking both the very good and the bad in his game in stride. In fairness to him, the bad stuff might be standing out more because the depth in this team has suddenly disappeared. I frequently thought during tonight's game that I was noticing Sheed too much because the team as a whole was executing poorly on offense and not getting back on defense, and players like Matt and Grayson weren't exactly making a strong case for themselves either.

Oriole Way
01-14-2015, 01:37 AM
Well, except for losing our two Assistant Head Coaches in the past two years.

You know what I mean. The schemes begin and end with the man at the top.

Is it not interesting to you that Wojo and Collins have employed much different defensive schemes than K's pressure M2M since leaving Duke's staff? They are working with inferior talent, but given Coach K's insistence of using that defense for every single one his teams, I think it's telling that those former assistants have chosen not to implement a similar defensive philosophy.

gcashwell
01-14-2015, 01:42 AM
I would love to see MP3 and okafor in the game together for just a few minutes. I wonder if the could clog the lane and ease some of the pressure on our perimeter D.

uh_no
01-14-2015, 01:44 AM
after duke was close at the half, i was thinking "we started slow, got better, and then started slow in the second half" but then miami continued to pound.....so here are the relevant tempo free splits:

20:00-8:15: 26/20.6 = 126
8:15-17:44: 10/17.8 = 56
17:44-0:00: 54/32.6 = 166

i guess i'm just baffled by how we can play absolute lights out for 10 minutes a game and be so awful the other half hour. The ability is there! Was there any lineup used for a long period in that 10 minute stretch? It's the same pattern as the BC game, except we scored a lot in that game unlike tonight.

I think one of the keys is not getting down early...something K mentioned....we came out and looked absolutely lost on the first defensive possession....honestly...just go watch the first couple minutes on replay, every switch looked like an exercise in rocket surgery! So tentative and unsure! That unsureness gave them opportunities all night long.

I also don't understand how tyus can be so quick on offense, and so horribly badly beaten on defense. It was one thing when he was screened, but even when he wasn't, it seemed like tyus was staying between his man and the middle of the lane....instead of between his man and the hoop. Someone would hedge, and then tyus or amile or whomever was left trying to guard 2 or 3 other guys under the basket. Credit Miami for getting their guys to do that, but man, that second help there was just really bad for duke. When duke helpers were getting beaten by helping, they stopped helping....or at least that's what i saw. ANyway, back on TYus, he was lost when there was a high screen...it was like he came around the screen and then ran back out to where the player was...already behind him....instead of trying to cut off his angle to the basket. He's recognizing it, stepping behind it, but not able to figure out where he needs to be after that. Something to work on.

sloppiness....bad passes, being too agressive into double teams, not being aggresive enough, allowing a double team....live ball turnovers, easy scores

not getting back. at least 2 instances of not getting back leading to a score. that's the kind of give up attitude I can't stand out of any team. no accident that K called a timeout.

free throw shooting. enough said.

Though I'm usually very honest about shortcomings, I try to come up with something positive....but I'm having a lot of trouble after this game, other than the aforementioned 10 minutes of really good defense.....but maybe there's this.

At one point duke gave up what i think was an And-1 after a failed switch/dunk, and before the FT, amile called the entire team in for a chat. That's the kind of leadership we need all the time from someone. Kudos amile.

Oriole Way
01-14-2015, 01:47 AM
Though I'm usually very honest about shortcomings, I try to come up with something positive....but I'm having a lot of trouble after this game, other than the aforementioned 10 minutes of really good defense.....but maybe there's this.

At one point duke gave up what i think was an And-1 after a failed switch/dunk, and before the FT, amile called the entire team in for a chat. That's the kind of leadership we need all the time from someone. Kudos amile.

Amile played great, and he was pretty much the lone bright spot tonight. I felt Coach K made a big mistake starting Matt Jones over him against NC State, but Amile responded by playing one of his best games of the season. We are going to need his leadership - not to mention talent and ability - to turn things around.

uh_no
01-14-2015, 01:59 AM
Amile played great, and he was pretty much the lone bright spot tonight. I felt Coach K made a big mistake starting Matt Jones over him against NC State, but Amile responded by playing one of his best games of the season. We are going to need his leadership - not to mention talent and ability - to turn things around.

overall yes. there were a couple sour spots....passing up a few open 8 footers and instead dribbling into a double team or throwing it away....happened 2-3 times...plus the free throws....but much better than he has been playing for sure. he was the best at trying to lead the defense too...but it was't to be.

eddiehaskell
01-14-2015, 02:04 AM
I am on board with starting Rasheed alongside Quinn. The two point guard system just isn't working. We've talked a lot about changing our defensive scheme, but I don't know of any scheme that will let you defend with two small, slow guards. There's just no way to do it.Too small against NCSU and too slow against Miami's 5'10" guards. Granted, I do wonder if 2010's back court of Scheyer/Nolan/Dawkins is really that much more athletic than Tyus/Cook/Sheed.

Oh, and as for the season, keep in mind that in 2010 we opened up conference play losing 2 of 5...one of which to NCSU by 14. I wont call the Louisville game a must win, but it's pretty close from a young team/confidence standpoint. The possibility of three L's in a row with @ND/@UVA a few weeks later is certainly concerning. A win sure would ease my mind about where this team is heading.

eddiehaskell
01-14-2015, 02:21 AM
Bottom line is, how we've played the last two games has little predictive power for how we're going to play down the road. I get that people are disappointed and frustrated, and the fact that we've played poorly for two games means it's possible we'll play poorly in the post-season, but on another level I just don't get why people feel the need to extrapolate one or two bad games into dire doomsday predictions. I just don't understand the point.
I agree for the most part, but how often have we been totally non-competitive in back-to-back games against non-ranked opponents and then had to turn around and play one of the top-5 teams in the country? A win against Louisville and all this gets dismissed as young team growing pains. With a loss, it may be best to look away until January is over. Luckily, as you mentioned, we do have the ability to win big games after being knocked against the ropes (evidence that Coach K often does know how to make the right tweaks).

mr. synellinden
01-14-2015, 03:31 AM
Some rumination after reflecting as objectively as possible on the last two games:

Remember when we hadn't won a game by less than 10 points? Now it feels like it would be nice to at least lose the game on Saturday by less than 10 points.

Remember when this team seemed like it had great chemistry and everyone was having fun playing? Nobody seems to be excited about playing anymore. There's no vibrancy. No energy. No apparent passion for the game. That's not to say they're not playing hard. They seem to be (although not necessary in the last few minutes last night) playing hard. They just don't seem to be playing with passion for the game and dedication to each other. Just throwing something out there (perhaps some speculation based on Coach K's off since Christmas comment) - is it possible that there was some major falling out between Tyus and Jahlil or two other players that has completely disrupted the team chemistry? I picked Tyus and Jah specifically because those two are supposedly best friends and the past few games I haven't seen much "buddy-ness" between them. Even in the wins it didn't appear to me like they were having fun playing together like they did earlier in the season. Maybe it's nothing and it's just bad body language because the team isn't playing well. One thing that is clear to me is that the team chemistry did change at some point after the Wisconsin game.

I know we start 3 freshman, but we have too much talent (9 McDs!!!) and too good of a coach to get beat like this. Losses happen, even at home sometimes - Kentucky almost lost at home last week. But uncompetitive, unprecedented beat down losses at home to unranked teams don't - and certainly not with the level of talent we have.

At one point we were 6 of 16 from the FT line. We ended up shooting the same from the FT line as Miami did from the three point line (10-20). That's a WOW! stat.

Remember when the rationalization for the NCSU game was that they just got hot from three and made a lot of very contested shots? Appears to be a bit of a trend. We can't guard the 3 point line. Actually, we really can't guard anywhere.

Does anyone ever remember a Duke team getting so consistently beat on fast breaks and leak outs because players are not rotating back?

I'm sorry, but I'm going to go on a short Rasheed rant here. I am baffled by some of the posters who are lauding Rasheed's play the last two games, or calling him one of the bright spots tonight. I think Rasheed has been our worst rotation player the last two games. Here are his stats. 9 for 26 shooting. 3 for 13 from 3 pt range. 6 assists and 5 turnovers (not very good for a guy who has the ball in his hands a lot). And 1 rebound total in two games. In my opinion he has played poor defense and even worse in my mind, he has played out of control (leading to ugly turnovers), not smart basketball (e.g., picking up a very lazy and stupid hand check foul with 2 seconds on the shot clock late in the second half last night and taking several forced or bad shots) and most worse - whining about seemingly every call against him or not called against him (I do agree that the last foul called against him late in the second half was a horrendous call). I said this in another thread. Rasheed is a junior. He should be one of the leaders of this team. He should be playing smart, controlled basketball - knowing what he can do and what his limitations are (somewhat like Scheyer in his upper class years). But I think he is a big liability for this team right now. It's time for him to grow up on the court.

Neither Quinn nor Tyus are above average athletic guards and they are not tall. Many others have raised this question, but I don't know why we are continuing to coach these guys to put so much pressure on opposing guards and overplay so much. They cannot keep up with speedy ball handlers and it kills our defense when guards repeatedly blow by them and break down the defense. Echoing what so many others have posted, I really think we need to contract the defense similar to our style of play in 2010. How much worse can our 3 pt defense get? State and Miami were a combined 20 for 36 from 3. Let's guard against dribble penetration which is consistently leading to defensive breakdowns and layups/dunks and better looks from 3 than teams would likely get if we stayed home a little more on the perimeter.

I wonder if any team's defensive efficiency rating has dropped this much in just two games.

The announcers said Miami had an 8% chance to win the game according to KenPom. I wonder what the odds were of a 16 point loss.

We gave up 56 points in a half at home to an unranked team.

I think I agree with some of the posts that label Tyus as the key to the success of this team.

Tyus Jones through Wisconsin: 46 assists; 8 turnovers; 24-52 from the field - 9 for 25 from 3

Tyus Jones since Wisconsin: 33 assists; 17 turnovers 14-46 from the field - 6 - 19 from 3

I think that's enough for now. I've thought about this enough. Next play. I really hope the coaching staff can figure out what that is. Coach K didn't sound confident that he knew what the next play should be.

mr. synellinden
01-14-2015, 04:08 AM
One more very telling stat, at least to me:

Assists to turnovers:

Through Wisconsin (8 games): 152-75 (about 19 - 9.5 and almost exactly 2:1)

Since Wisconsin (8 games): 106-107 (about 13-13 and almost exactly 1:1)

eddiehaskell
01-14-2015, 04:37 AM
I'm sorry, but I'm going to go on a short Rasheed rant here. I am baffled by some of the posters who are lauding Rasheed's play the last two games, or calling him one of the bright spots tonight. I think Rasheed has been our worst rotation player the last two games. Here are his stats. 9 for 26 shooting. 3 for 13 from 3 pt range. 6 assists and 5 turnovers (not very good for a guy who has the ball in his hands a lot). And 1 rebound total in two games. In my opinion he has played poor defense and even worse in my mind, he has played out of control (leading to ugly turnovers), not smart basketball (e.g., picking up a very lazy and stupid hand check foul with 2 seconds on the shot clock late in the second half last night and taking several forced or bad shots) and most worse - whining about seemingly every call against him or not called against him (I do agree that the last foul called against him late in the second half was a horrendous call). I said this in another thread. Rasheed is a junior. He should be one of the leaders of this team. He should be playing smart, controlled basketball - knowing what he can do and what his limitations are (somewhat like Scheyer in his upper class years). But I think he is a big liability for this team right now. It's time for him to grow up on the court.This is all true, but he has shown emotion, hustle and grit. There was the bad foul call at the end of the Miami game and also the "steal" at the very end of the NCSU game. I see him moving his feet and trying to stay in front of guards more than anyone else (yeah, silly foul with 2 sec on the shot clock). Yes, he's reckless sometimes, but I'd rather see reckless than tentative and unsure. Just look at the alternatives in the past 2 games:

Matt Jones - 1-8, 6pts, 1-6 3pt
Grayson - 1-2, 4pts, 0-1 3pt
Tyus - 3-15, 10pts, 0-6 3pt
Justise - 4-19, 12 pts, 1-8 3pt

Add all this up and you get 16.0 ppg, 20.5% from the field, 9.5% from 3pt....FROM FOUR PLAYERS

Rasheed by himself has averaged 12.5 ppg, 34.6% from the field, 23% from 3pt.

He hasn't played well by any means, but it blows my mind to think his lackluster production is better than four of our other wings combined.

If we can't stop other teams on defense, we might as well throw out our best offensive firepower. Perhaps that means playing Rasheed/Quinn 33+ minutes and bringing Tyus off the bench for ~20 minutes.

roywhite
01-14-2015, 06:52 AM
Lots of frustrating aspects to this level of play. One I haven't seen noted:

Matt Jones, potentially our best perimeter defender, seemingly can not avoid cheap fouls, which greatly limits his availability.

jv001
01-14-2015, 07:02 AM
Lots of frustrating aspects to this level of play. One I haven't seen noted:

Matt Jones, potentially our best perimeter defender, seemingly can not avoid cheap fouls, which greatly limits his availability.

I have to agree roywhite. Matt's fouling is taking away from his good defense. Rasheed has to be put in the same category. While I'm on the guards, Quinn is scoring his points, but is playing poor defense. Well at least in the last 3 games. Tyus is no better than Quinn on defense and has not performed well on offense either. The bright spot last night was the play of Amile. If every player had his heart and desire to win, we would not have lost this game. The alarming thing I took away from this game was Rodriguez and Coach Larranaga's comments after the game. They basically said that they knew they would beat Duke's guards off the dribble because of how Duke play's defense. Their coach said it took little coaching from him to get the job done. I love Coach K, but after watching last season's performance on defense and now seeing the same thing, it looks like it's time for a change in the defensive scheme. GoDuke!

arnie
01-14-2015, 07:27 AM
I'm sure someone can pull up a post from last season when the same thing was said about Jabari, which never really happened. Although Coach K talked about simplifying things this year, it is evident that Duke's defensive schemes require a few seasons to get used to. The makeup of youth in college basketball these days doesn't allow for that in the Duke system.

Good summary of our defensive issues IMO. Unless we change our D philosophy, I don't think OADs work well for us- particularly if we rely on them so significantly.

dukelifer
01-14-2015, 07:38 AM
So, some historical context (this is not going to be an encouraging post). Here is a list of Duke home losses by double digits to unranked opponents since the 1983-84 season:



Miami 90, Duke 74, 1/13/15
Illinois 75, Duke 65, 12/2/95
NC State 77, Duke 60, 1/18/95*
UNC 87, Duke 75, 3/4/90


*Duke also was unranked in this game.

There is a very good argument that, given the relative strengths of the two teams and the final scoring margin, this was the single worst loss in Cameron in the last 30 years. Regardless, we hadn't lost to an unranked team at home by double digits in almost 20 years. I am dumbfounded at how uncompetitive the second half was.

I could not remember when it had been such a big margin against a middle of the pack opponent. It was very bad. Maybe a wake up call- maybe a bad year in the making. Another chance to lace em up though. Not easy to be a fan some years.

dyedwab
01-14-2015, 07:42 AM
Good summary of our defensive issues IMO. Unless we change our D philosophy, I don't think OADs work well for us- particularly if we rely on them so significantly.

I'm sympathetic to this critique, but, geez, its not like playing defense is brain surgery. And its not like other teams with one-and-dones (see KY) don't play defense well. And its not like we haven't played defense well in spurts this year (meaning they get it on some level). But a new scheme won't stop the standing around after a missed shot which leads to breakout. And it won't correct the hangdog expressions that occur when we miss shots and lose focus on the defensive end.

We may never be a good defensive team, and our scheme may be too complicated, but if the players don't take pride in what they do on the defensive end, we will continue to have these problems no matter what defense we play.

Other than 2010 (and its a great exception), we haven't been an elite defensive team in a long time....

OldPhiKap
01-14-2015, 07:53 AM
Rough patches happen with young teams. Disappointing, but no reason to panic.

This team showed earlier this season that it can compete on both ends of the floor on a high level. We have a coach who can right the ship. This year is a roller coaster, buy your ticket and take the ride.

This is not the last bad loss we will take this year. Doesn't mean we won't be ready for a roll in March.

But to state the obvious - we have work to do.

sagegrouse
01-14-2015, 08:01 AM
Lots of frustrating aspects to this level of play. One I haven't seen noted:

Matt Jones, potentially our best perimeter defender, seemingly can not avoid cheap fouls, which greatly limits his availability.

I don't believe anyone has yet commented on the one unassailable bright spot of the game: The reffing was so one-sided in the first half that Len Elmore actually said, "All the calls are going against Duke."

jv001
01-14-2015, 08:08 AM
I'm sympathetic to this critique, but, geez, its not like playing defense is brain surgery. And its not like other teams with one-and-dones (see KY) don't play defense well. And its not like we haven't played defense well in spurts this year (meaning they get it on some level). But a new scheme won't stop the standing around after a missed shot which leads to breakout. And it won't correct the hangdog expressions that occur when we miss shots and lose focus on the defensive end.
We may never be a good defensive team, and our scheme may be too complicated, but if the players don't take pride in what they do on the defensive end, we will continue to have these problems no matter what defense we play.

Other than 2010 (and its a great exception), we haven't been an elite defensive team in a long time....

I thought that I might be dreaming(nightmare) of some of our players hanging their heads after missed shots. And failing to get back on defense. Those that I've noticed doing this the most are: Quinn, Matt, Rasheed and Jah. I agree it's a matter of pride. I hate to say it but at times it looks like some of the players are more concerned about individual points than team points. IMO, that's called selfishness. GoDuke!

Wheat/"/"/"
01-14-2015, 08:13 AM
A couple of comments...

Coach K hasn't suddenly become a bad coach after one game. It was just a bad matchup on the perimiter that got worse when they hit some shots, got some TO's and gained the confidence to attack...and attack from both sides of the ball. They played really well.

There are other good teams out there besides your own and a healthy dose of respect is necessary in the ACC.

The team is full of good shooters. Forget the stats, Duke can shoot it... If it's a good shot in the flow of the play.
The problem is with patience. They were taking bad shots early in the shot clock, and seemed to rush an off balanced deep 3 when just a little more passing and screening would have opened up a better look or an entry to Okafor in the post.

They just need to dial back the on ball defense against teams with guards like Miami's, play a more positional defense on the wings....take better care of the ball and be a little more disciplined to take better shots and feed the best big man in the country.

No need to panic. The team just has to settle down and play better together.

DUKIE V(A)
01-14-2015, 08:17 AM
Last night...

1. Lots of missed layups.
2. Poor free throw shooting.
3. Failure to get back on defense.
4. Played in panic mode which resulted in rushed shots, turnovers, and unnecessary fouls.
5. Miami is talented, has quality guards, and was up for the game. Teams always give Duke their best shot and that is not easy. Makes the 41 game home winning streak all the more impressive.

On the positive side...

1. We got a ton of good shots. Just need to make them. Unfortunately, We seemed to rush and press a bit on quite a few of them.
2. We outrebounded Miami by 10.
3. JW did not get more injured when he appeared to jam his shoulder. I was worried.

Thoughts for the future...

1. Get MP3 more minutes. He brings energy and an aggressive presence to the game.
2. I seem to be in the minority, but I believe MJ will prove to be an extremely valuable player down the stretch. He is tough and brings a lot to the table defensively.
3. Get back to the more pass oriented, fluid basketball the team was playing prior to the break. This will take a commitment on the part of the players to stop worrying about their stat lines and do what's right for the team. The play has been a bit selfish of late.

DUKIE V(A)
01-14-2015, 08:24 AM
PS. Credit to Coach L for once again giving Duke fits. Thank you Coach L for your honesty in your presser. I believe your words might motivate a few folks. Hopefully, a sleeping giant has been awoken.

devildeac
01-14-2015, 08:25 AM
We "killed" them on the boards.:rolleyes:

60's Devil
01-14-2015, 08:33 AM
[QUOTE=Duke 81 LA;770012]I am fairly confident we have more McDonalds All Americans than we have post season wins since 2010 and maybe since 2007

Kind of makes it hard to blame the players.

fgb
01-14-2015, 08:35 AM
The kid was brilliant. We didn't make it too hard, but he was a maestro. What defensive adjustments can we make?

maybe the same adjustments made by eastern kentucky, wisconsin green bay, and providence?

fuse
01-14-2015, 08:38 AM
I did not expect to drop two in a row.
There has been a transformation (regression?) of where this team looked like it was among the best in the country to almost disinterested on the court.

Our best player appears to be lazy, and letting bad body language creep in.

We've got to re-discover how to play solid defense and value the ball.

I know the next game is Louisville. I would still start:
Plumlee
Jefferson
Winslow
Suliamon
Q. Cook

Those that have been down on Amile ought to recognize he was single handedly keeping us in the game last night- a pretty amazing performance.

Rasheed does need to avoid becoming a black hole with the ball (and bad body language).

We also need to be better at adjusting to how games are called. I may not care for how the game was officiated, but both Matt and Sheed should have toned it down. On the other hand, I wouldn't mind Jahlil picking up some defensive fouls and sending a message to the other team. No one is afraid to drive, as Jahlil moves out of the way to avoid the foul. Winslow may be our best rim protector (eye test, not a data based analysis).

Just call me a confused fan. Early in the season, this seemed like it would be a special ride with high potential. Crystal ball really cloudy- plenty of time for the team to put it together. It's really hard to want the team to be playing their best at the end of the season and live through the growing pains.

bluebeagle
01-14-2015, 08:39 AM
My predictions for the upcoming game against Lville is the same predictions I had when we played them a few years back in the NCAA tourney. Which is this. They will beat us on dribble penetration for an easy slam or kick out for an open three. And after many years of watching our guards getting abused on D with no change in philosophy I know now things aren't going to change. I think I came to this realization after watching poor Paulus getting repeatedly beat off the dribble like he was running through molasses.

Sixthman
01-14-2015, 08:42 AM
The Lehigh win as a number 15 seed over Duke in the opening round of the 2012 NCAA tournament was, until last night, the most unpleasant Duke game I ever sat through. I am still uncertain whether I will ever be able to attend a game at the Greensboro Coliseum without becoming physically ill. The first thirty minutes last night felt like Lehigh. The last ten were worse. For the last ten minutes, we looked like the Washington Generals. Coach K described what happened as the product of Miami playing well but also, significantly, a lack of confidence on the part of the Duke players. This makes sense, but there is more. Beginning with the Wake Forest game, we look like a completely different team handling the ball. Our passing of the ball which was, early in the season, crisp and aggressive, has become indifferent, and this has resulted in a lot of steals and transition opportunities for the opponent. To me, this looks like mental fatigue. I think we looked physically tired on the court as well. Interestingly, we have continued to rebound well in comparison to our opponents during this phase, and indifferent or tired players do not rebound well, so this statistic only confirms that this team is working hard, giving good effort, but still not playing well. There was the suggestion in the post game comments that the Duke freshman have hit the freshman wall. To my eye, Tyus Jones does not look at all like himself the last three games. If you told me he had been suffering from the flu, my reaction would be "yeah, that makes sense". Jahlil has actually looked pretty strong in these two losses. He made some poor passes in the State game, but does not look to me like someone who is off his game. Winslow looks a little beat up and has hit the court hard several times in recent games. The officiating last night was poor, but this seemed to affect the Duke players while Miami played on. I've seen seasons where I never saw a Duke player clearly react to or complain about a foul on the court. It used to be the case that Duke filmed each player during the game and went over things like body language and reaction to calls to basically coach players on how this could undermine their game, their focus and the confidence. If we are still doing this, there is a lot of coaching to be done. I saw Cook, Okafor, Jefferson, and Sulaimon all thinking about and reacting to the officials last night. If someone were filming me reacting to the officials last night they would be concerned for my health, so I sympathize with this. But, it's not Duke basketball. This team is so much better on defense than last year that I still have hope that we might become a great team. Still, I agree with another posters comment that we have not had a great defensive team -- for years. A great defensive team can control the game even when they are not shooting well. That has not been true of Duke in recent years.

Last night was the end of a great home wining streak. We are a lucky fan base, but maybe have become complacent. The crowd was weak last night -- as weak as the team. I have become the guy who complains that things are not as good as the used to be, and for this I apologize, but, they are not. Last night, the students were there, but had no impact on emotions in the arena last night. At one point, Crazy Towel Guy exhorted the crowd and no one noticed. Coach K took off his coat and stomped the floor twice and the crowd got rowdy until the next disappointing play, and then disappeared. Sometimes the crowd is capable of giving and needs to give energy to the players. We have become a crowd that instead draws its energy from great plays. We all need to step our cheering game up. Toward that end, I wish that whoever is directing the show in Cameron would allow for some organic spirit. Every second of every timeout is programmed with some predetermined noise. I feel as if I can tell you now what is going to happen at the 8 minute timeout in the second half of the next home game. If what really needed to happen was for the students to engage in a clever chant ridiculing inept officiating, there is no moment in which this could occur.

MCFinARL
01-14-2015, 08:45 AM
Last night...

1. Lots of missed layups.
2. Poor free throw shooting.
3. Failure to get back on defense.
4. Played in panic mode which resulted in rushed shots, turnovers, and unnecessary fouls.
5. Miami is talented, has quality guards, and was up for the game. Teams always give Duke their best shot and that is not easy. Makes the 41 game home winning streak all the more impressive.

On the positive side...

1. We got a ton of good shots. Just need to make them. Unfortunately, We seemed to rush and press a bit on quite a few of them.
2. We outrebounded Miami by 10.
3. JW did not get more injured when he appeared to jam his shoulder. I was worried.

Thoughts for the future...

1. Get MP3 more minutes. He brings energy and an aggressive presence to the game.
2. I seem to be in the minority, but I believe MJ will prove to be an extremely valuable player down the stretch. He is tough and brings a lot to the table defensively.
3. Get back to the more pass oriented, fluid basketball the team was playing prior to the break. This will take a commitment on the part of the players to stop worrying about their stat lines and do what's right for the team. The play has been a bit selfish of late.

I agree the offense has been less fluid in January than it was in December. But I am not sure I agree with you (and another poster, I think) that this is about individual stat lines. I think an equally plausible explanation is that the shooters are feeling pressure to step up for the team--and that that pressure is leading to forced or over-thought shots. Unselfishness is great, and important--but sometimes what appears to be selfishness is just impatience or flawed decision making.

YmoBeThere
01-14-2015, 08:45 AM
Rough patches happen with young teams. Disappointing, but no reason to panic.

But the sky is falling, I'm telling ya! The sky is falling!

weezie
01-14-2015, 08:48 AM
Sixthman nails everything.

jv001
01-14-2015, 08:50 AM
Amile played a very good game in a losing cause: 14 points on 7/9 shooting, 12 rebounds but missed all 3 FTs. Played 29 mins.
Justise was basically non-existent in his 27 mins. 2 points in 1/6 shooting and was 0-2 on his threes. He had 2 rebounds, 1 assist and 2 turnovers. Oh and he missed all 4 of his FTs.
Jahlil had 15 points on 6/13 shooting, had 15 rebounds, 0 assists and 2 turnovers was 3/5 FTs. Played 33 minutes.
Quinn played well on offense. He had 18 points on 7/13 shooting, was 4/7 on threes, 6 rebounds, 4 assists and 2 turnovers. He didn't shoot any FTs(should have). Quinn played 38 mins.
Tyus had 6 points on 2/9 shooting with 0/3 on threes. He had 2 assists and 2 turnovers. He played 27 minutes.
Rasheed scored 14 pts on 5/14 shooting and 2/8 on threes. He had 3 assists and 3 turnovers.
Matt played a total of 6 mins with 1 point, 1 rebound, 1 assist.
Grayson had 4 points, 1 rebound.
Marshall played 6 mins with all zeros except for 1 steal.
Team stats: 43.9 field goal %, 28.6% Three pointers, FT 50% 10-20 attempts, 41 rebounds 17 offensive,12 assists and 15 turnovers.
Miami shot 51.8% Field goals, 10-20 three pointers.
That's pretty much the offensive side of the game. GoDuke!

MCFinARL
01-14-2015, 09:04 AM
I don't feel like doing the legwork, but I bet it's also true for most top teams, including Kentucky and they've won a lot of NCAAT games with their McD-laden roster. The more McD AAs you have, the more impossible it becomes to have more NCAA wins than McDs.

Sure--I was just trying to verify someone else's point, not make a claim that this was unprecedented or a sign of monstrous failure. In truth, comparisons like "more McD's than post season wins" are more useful as rhetorical flourishes than as data points, which might have led me not to pursue the data had I been feeling more rational last night. But the comparison is emotionally powerful if nothing else--hard for me to hear it without remembering Joe Alexander and his WVA cronies crowing incredulously about the number of McDonald's All-Americans on Duke after they won in the 2008 NCAAT.


You know what I mean. The schemes begin and end with the man at the top.

Is it not interesting to you that Wojo and Collins have employed much different defensive schemes than K's pressure M2M since leaving Duke's staff? They are working with inferior talent, but given Coach K's insistence of using that defense for every single one his teams, I think it's telling that those former assistants have chosen not to implement a similar defensive philosophy.

It is interesting, but I'm not sure how telling it is. The talent they are working with is not insignificant--and I don't think there is any reason to assume that newly minted head coaches will always do everything the same way their former bosses did.

azzefkram
01-14-2015, 09:13 AM
Last night...

1. Lots of missed layups.
2. Poor free throw shooting.
3. Failure to get back on defense.
4. Played in panic mode which resulted in rushed shots, turnovers, and unnecessary fouls.
5. Miami is talented, has quality guards, and was up for the game. Teams always give Duke their best shot and that is not easy. Makes the 41 game home winning streak all the more impressive.

On the positive side...

1. We got a ton of good shots. Just need to make them. Unfortunately, We seemed to rush and press a bit on quite a few of them.
2. We outrebounded Miami by 10.
3. JW did not get more injured when he appeared to jam his shoulder. I was worried.

Thoughts for the future...

1. Get MP3 more minutes. He brings energy and an aggressive presence to the game.
2. I seem to be in the minority, but I believe MJ will prove to be an extremely valuable player down the stretch. He is tough and brings a lot to the table defensively.
3. Get back to the more pass oriented, fluid basketball the team was playing prior to the break. This will take a commitment on the part of the players to stop worrying about their stat lines and do what's right for the team. The play has been a bit selfish of late.

I couldn't agree more with this especially 1 and 3 in your "thoughts for the future" section. MP3 has his shortcomings (that are waaaaaay overblown by many on this board), but he is much better than Jah on D. The high screen wasn't nearly as effective in the first half when MP3 was in. I think our O needs to stop worrying about getting Jah a good shot and get back to just getting a good shot. There is no doubt in my mind that Jah is our best offensive weapon but we have a boatload of offensive options at our disposal. Let's get back to using them all. There has been far too much dumping the ball into Jah then standing around waiting for him to do something. It reminds me far too much (and not in a pleasant way) of what we did last year with Jabari.

jv001
01-14-2015, 09:20 AM
I agree the offense has been less fluid in January than it was in December. But I am not sure I agree with you (and another poster, I think) that this is about individual stat lines. I think an equally plausible explanation is that the shooters are feeling pressure to step up for the team--and that that pressure is leading to forced or over-thought shots. Unselfishness is great, and important--but sometimes what appears to be selfishness is just impatience or flawed decision making.

I'm the poster that said sometimes it looks like that's the case(selfishness). I guess it could be impatience or flawed decision making and that could be coming from our offensive sets. We seem to go to Jahlil at the beginning of the games and then we revert to trying to drive the ball. Many times we get the shot blocked and the opponent is off on a fast break. At times the team seems to really hustle and go all out, but other times players stand around after missed shots, failing to break down the lane when Jahlil has the ball in a double team and many times we don't get back on defense. I believe the team is not buying into doing the little things it takes to be an elite team. Defense is what's really killing Duke. But I think it can be fixed because we have the athletes to make it happen. I just don't know if it will happen playing pressure man to man defense. GoDuke!

dukepsy1963
01-14-2015, 09:38 AM
1. Okafor is our offense. Other teams know this and if they can, they double up on him as much as possible. It they can't double up very well, then they "might" lose.

2. We have lousy free throw shooting. If it is decent in a game, we might win. If is terrible we just give the other team the ball for free and further, if the fouler has some fouls to give, even more of a gift.

3. We cannot shoot three's. At least we feel especially excited when one goes it. If a lot go in, we might win. I heard that we had recruited some guys that could, I have not seen any of them yet. I am excited that I might! (cynical here, of course)

4. Our defense is not very good; and I am being kind. If it is better than usual, we might win. Or if the other team's defense is especially good, we are in deep trouble.

5. Our "drives" into the paint are a problem, awkward is the only thing I can think of here.

6. This team is a bunch of freshmen. I remember being one. I was far from confident in anything, and to expect more from these guys because they have special sports skills is too much to ask. You are scared of a lot that first semester.

7. Fill in the blank.............................

Solutions/suggestions From a Old Spectator with No Sports Talent


Misdirection, Use IT

We are predictable. Teams know where the ball is going. We need to do a little magic somewhere, and make them guess what we are going to do. Maybe Okafor, maybe not. Maybe this, maybe that. This presupposes some reliable alternative to Okafor. Now that's the tough one. But if I say "look over here" and then do something somewhere else, it sometimes works.

We need to fix defense. That's a tough one.

We need to dramatically fix foul shooting. That's doable, I think. (I think I could hit one of two! And I am 73 years old.)

That's it for what it's worth!!

BlueandWhite
01-14-2015, 09:47 AM
A couple of comments...

Coach K hasn't suddenly become a bad coach after one game. It was just a bad matchup on the perimiter that got worse when they hit some shots, got some TO's and gained the confidence to attack...and attack from both sides of the ball. They played really well.

There are other good teams out there besides your own and a healthy dose of respect is necessary in the ACC.

The team is full of good shooters. Forget the stats, Duke can shoot it... If it's a good shot in the flow of the play.
The problem is with patience. They were taking bad shots early in the shot clock, and seemed to rush an off balanced deep 3 when just a little more passing and screening would have opened up a better look or an entry to Okafor in the post.

They just need to dial back the on ball defense against teams with guards like Miami's, play a more positional defense on the wings....take better care of the ball and be a little more disciplined to take better shots and feed the best big man in the country.

No need to panic. The team just has to settle down and play better together.

Thanks, Wheat for your insights -- can't disagree with anything you said, really. Your comments about lack of patience in shot selection and dialing back on-ball D are on target. Guards in particular need to really play better overall D, period. The ACC will be extremely competitive this year, could be a logjam at the top by season's end.

alteran
01-14-2015, 09:54 AM
Why does it feel like this happens every January? We play some tough teams in the non conference schedule but the wheels come off in conference play. What is the reason for this seemingly annual trend?

To me, the annual trend is more like things come to a head in February, when it's too late to make anything other than tweaks (barring a 2001 Boozer is out miracle).

So, the good news is, we've got time to deal with the problems. These are still the same guys from before 2015.

We've got plenty of time to adjust. I'm still bullish on this team.

Danke Shane
01-14-2015, 09:59 AM
Maybe it's our turn to be the 4-5-6-7 seed that gets hot and goes on a tear in the tournament? (Grasping at straws for a silver lining here).

UrinalCake
01-14-2015, 10:06 AM
Was that game played at the local rec center?
I've never heard Cameron so quiet.
VERY Sad to see the people lucky enough to be inches from the court standing there in silence for 90% of the game. What a shame.

I was at the game. The fans started with a lot of energy. They sustained that energy through the first half, when the game stayed close. They took it up a notch after halftime, when things were starting to slip away. Over and over again the crowd jumped, yelled, and pleaded for the team to make something happen. And over and over again the result was a turnover, bad shot, blown defensive assignment, or wide open three for Miami. When the lead hit 15 the crowd reached its loudest point of the night, only to see another sloppy turnover.

I know we expect to support the team unconditionally, but after two hours of screaming your head off only to see repeated failure, you can't really blame the fans for losing energy during those final ten minutes, which were easily the worst I've ever experienced in Cameron.

_Gary
01-14-2015, 10:13 AM
Maybe it's our turn to be the 4-5-6-7 seed that gets hot and goes on a tear in the tournament? (Grasping at straws for a silver lining here).

I hope it doesn't have to come to us being a really low seed, but your basic premise is, at present, the one silver lining. We all know we have the talent to win it all. Seriously, regardless of how the team plays in January or even February, we all know this team has talent. So us getting "hot" in March and winning from a lower-seeded position would not be akin to a George Mason beating UConn in '06 (although I loved that game), or Villanova or State winning as true Cinderellas. We have serious talent on this team and we can play with anyone. It's not a stretch and it wouldn't take a "sports miracle" for us to win either the ACC or NCAA tourney. If there's any silver lining this year (as opposed to some years when we really didn't have the talent we thought we had), it's that we do have the actual pieces to play the game well.

YmoBeThere
01-14-2015, 10:15 AM
Maybe it's our turn to be the 4-5-6-7 seed that gets hot and goes on a tear in the tournament? (Grasping at straws for a silver lining here).
See last year's tournament and a #8 seed with 6 conference and 11 overall losses.

DevilYouthCoach
01-14-2015, 10:25 AM
The Lehigh win as a number 15 seed over Duke in the opening round of the 2012 NCAA tournament was, until last night, the most unpleasant Duke game I ever sat through. I am still uncertain whether I will ever be able to attend a game at the Greensboro Coliseum without becoming physically ill. The first thirty minutes last night felt like Lehigh. The last ten were worse. For the last ten minutes, we looked like the Washington Generals. Coach K described what happened as the product of Miami playing well but also, significantly, a lack of confidence on the part of the Duke players. This makes sense, but there is more. Beginning with the Wake Forest game, we look like a completely different team handling the ball. Our passing of the ball which was, early in the season, crisp and aggressive, has become indifferent, and this has resulted in a lot of steals and transition opportunities for the opponent. To me, this looks like mental fatigue. I think we looked physically tired on the court as well. Interestingly, we have continued to rebound well in comparison to our opponents during this phase, and indifferent or tired players do not rebound well, so this statistic only confirms that this team is working hard, giving good effort, but still not playing well. There was the suggestion in the post game comments that the Duke freshman have hit the freshman wall. To my eye, Tyus Jones does not look at all like himself the last three games. If you told me he had been suffering from the flu, my reaction would be "yeah, that makes sense". Jahlil has actually looked pretty strong in these two losses. He made some poor passes in the State game, but does not look to me like someone who is off his game. Winslow looks a little beat up and has hit the court hard several times in recent games. The officiating last night was poor, but this seemed to affect the Duke players while Miami played on. I've seen seasons where I never saw a Duke player clearly react to or complain about a foul on the court. It used to be the case that Duke filmed each player during the game and went over things like body language and reaction to calls to basically coach players on how this could undermine their game, their focus and the confidence. If we are still doing this, there is a lot of coaching to be done. I saw Cook, Okafor, Jefferson, and Sulaimon all thinking about and reacting to the officials last night. If someone were filming me reacting to the officials last night they would be concerned for my health, so I sympathize with this. But, it's not Duke basketball. This team is so much better on defense than last year that I still have hope that we might become a great team. Still, I agree with another posters comment that we have not had a great defensive team -- for years. A great defensive team can control the game even when they are not shooting well. That has not been true of Duke in recent years.

Last night was the end of a great home wining streak. We are a lucky fan base, but maybe have become complacent. The crowd was weak last night -- as weak as the team. I have become the guy who complains that things are not as good as the used to be, and for this I apologize, but, they are not. Last night, the students were there, but had no impact on emotions in the arena last night. At one point, Crazy Towel Guy exhorted the crowd and no one noticed. Coach K took off his coat and stomped the floor twice and the crowd got rowdy until the next disappointing play, and then disappeared. Sometimes the crowd is capable of giving and needs to give energy to the players. We have become a crowd that instead draws its energy from great plays. We all need to step our cheering game up. Toward that end, I wish that whoever is directing the show in Cameron would allow for some organic spirit. Every second of every timeout is programmed with some predetermined noise. I feel as if I can tell you now what is going to happen at the 8 minute timeout in the second half of the next home game. If what really needed to happen was for the students to engage in a clever chant ridiculing inept officiating, there is no moment in which this could occur.



No one clued our freshmen in on the fact that pretty much everybody in the ACC is good and is capable of beating us on any given night. We are playing as if the season concluded with the Wisconsin game. Far, far from it! I have watched Duke for fifty years and I have always been impressed with how our guys would rise up to battle two or three times a week. I am afraid that perhaps the youngsters have been too impressed with their press clippings! It's a long life, guys, and a long season! You have to be ready to give it every time you step on the floor! The bright side is that maybe we'll have these guys back for several more years?!

Channing
01-14-2015, 10:25 AM
The recurring theme for the last few years seems to be the lack of quickness at the point. It seems our guys are unable to stop dribble penetration from the top, and on the other end, are unable to get dribble penetration. I was hoping Tyus would be a change to that, and he has shown the ability to occasionally get in the paint and get a good look. Perhaps it is our defensive scheme, or the failure by the bigs to hedge, but we cannot stop the pick and roll or keep other teams out the paint. How many times to Amile end up guarding Rodriguez for extended periods last night?

nmduke2001
01-14-2015, 10:38 AM
The recurring theme for the last few years seems to be the lack of quickness at the point. It seems our guys are unable to stop dribble penetration from the top, and on the other end, are unable to get dribble penetration. I was hoping Tyus would be a change to that, and he has shown the ability to occasionally get in the paint and get a good look. Perhaps it is our defensive scheme, or the failure by the bigs to hedge, but we cannot stop the pick and roll or keep other teams out the paint. How many times to Amile end up guarding Rodriguez for extended periods last night?

We have had trouble guarding the high pick and roll since 1998 when Wayne Turner and Kentucky used Wojo as a revolving door in the NCAA tourney. Absent Zoubs playing out of his mind in 2010 or Shane being an incredible defensive anchor in 2001, the coaching staff still hasn’t figured out how to defend the high pick and roll and everybody knows it now. Sure a player like Duhon can cover up a lot but put a Paulus, Wojo, Cook, or Thornton out there with a post that doesn’t hedge properly and it becomes a layup line for the opposing team.

KandG
01-14-2015, 10:50 AM
Fine piece on Grantland today on how Tony Bennett turned Virginia into a defensive powerhouse. Interesting point on "deny" defensive teams (like Duke) vs "gap" defensive teams (like Virginia). Fairly germane given how much Duke has struggled on defense the last two seasons.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/virginia-defense-pack-line-dick-tony-bennett/

I liked this passage especially:

Although we often associate great defense with moments of individual brilliance — a feisty defender locking up an opposing ball handler until he forces up a tough shot — the real hallmark of a great defense is how well it recovers when breached at the point of attack. “Deny” teams put themselves at greater risk, because once their initial pressure is beaten, help defenders face long, rushed recoveries since the structure of the defense is already stretched so thin. Offenses that can break this pressure will feast on easy hoops.

Dick cultivated his pack-line principles to eliminate these chaotic (and often nonexistent) help situations by having help in place before it’s needed. The line the Bennetts use to teach their system is both literal and metaphorical — no player is to stray from the pack at the expense of the collective unit.

“It’s more of a team system,” Tony says. “You have to rely on people being in the help position, in the gaps.”

sammy3469
01-14-2015, 10:51 AM
We have had trouble guarding the high pick and roll since 1998 when Wayne Turner and Kentucky used Wojo as a revolving door in the NCAA tourney. Absent Zoubs playing out of his mind in 2010 or Shane being an incredible defensive anchor in 2001, the coaching staff still hasn’t figured out how to defend the high pick and roll and everybody knows it now. Sure a player like Duhon can cover up a lot but put a Paulus, Wojo, Cook, or Thornton out there with a post that doesn’t hedge properly and it becomes a layup line for the opposing team.

Yup...and when the offense gets out of sync, our floor spacing goes to crap which results in easy leakouts on rebounds and turnovers.

I do think the problem is sort of unique to opposing teams with 2 good quick ballhandlers as whoever Cook is guarding initiates the pick and roll, but the ACC is full of teams like that this year.

CR9
01-14-2015, 10:54 AM
I like the idea someone brought up of benching the kids to attempt to light a fire in them. Quinn, Matt, Sheed, Amile, Plums. Start them and let the freshman know that the lethargy and disinterest is unacceptable, particularly Jah and Tyus.

dyedwab
01-14-2015, 10:57 AM
We have had trouble guarding the high pick and roll since 1998 when Wayne Turner and Kentucky used Wojo as a revolving door in the NCAA tourney. Absent Zoubs playing out of his mind in 2010 or Shane being an incredible defensive anchor in 2001, the coaching staff still hasn’t figured out how to defend the high pick and roll and everybody knows it now. Sure a player like Duhon can cover up a lot but put a Paulus, Wojo, Cook, or Thornton out there with a post that doesn’t hedge properly and it becomes a layup line for the opposing team.

This is true, but what we have done successfully is prevent the 3 point shot. Any defense is gonna give something up. The beginning of the cascading failures that were the State and Miami games was that they were hitting 3s. We can actually survive not defending the high pick and roll - we can still beat teams. But if they also hit 3s, we're done.

mgtr
01-14-2015, 11:09 AM
No brilliant insight here, but somebody needs to rethink the whole team. Last year, Coach said the team was built around a freshman and a sophomore. They were good, but not good enough to carry the rest of the team. Okafor is terrific, but the team then becomes a one trick pony. T. Jones is fair, in my opinion. Winslow is very uneven -- hard to build a team around uneven. I think these two guys need a lot of hard, hard coaching. If they don't respond, they ride the pine until they do. Cook and Jefferson are known quantities, and they do OK.
I would replace T. Jones with Sulaimon, mistakes and all. He puts forth the effort, with pretty good success. I would bench the other Jones until he gets his shot straightened out.

GGLC
01-14-2015, 11:21 AM
Stealing this from a friend, but: apparently Semi was the linchpin of this team. Who knew?

jv001
01-14-2015, 11:33 AM
I like the idea someone brought up of benching the kids to attempt to light a fire in them. Quinn, Matt, Sheed, Amile, Plums. Start them and let the freshman know that the lethargy and disinterest is unacceptable, particularly Jah
Quinn and Rasheed are as responsible for the poor defense as anyone. And you can throw in Matt because his 3 point clanks sometimes lead to run outs. I think the coaching staff has to realize that our guards/wings cannot play this type defense. They are not quick enough. Other coaches know it and take advantage of it. The best defense we played all year (against a decent opponent) was the Wisconsin game. In that game the team switched on every pick and roll and it worked. I don't know if that kind of defense is going to work in every game, but it can't get much worse. GoDuke!

mgtr
01-14-2015, 11:34 AM
Well, I got called away before I said who I would play. I would use Okafor, Jefferson, Plumlee, Sulaimon, and Cook, with the other four as subs and maybe some walkons. If nothing else, it would get the attention of the benched players and they would be begging for time before long. We would probably lose more games, but the way we are headed, we will anyway.

CR9
01-14-2015, 11:42 AM
Quinn and Rasheed are as responsible for the poor defense as anyone. And you can throw in Matt because his 3 point clanks sometimes lead to run outs. I think the coaching staff has to realize that our guards/wings cannot play this type defense. They are not quick enough. Other coaches know it and take advantage of it. The best defense we played all year (against a decent opponent) was the Wisconsin game. In that game the team switched on every pick and roll and it worked. I don't know if that kind of defense is going to work in every game, but it can't get much worse. GoDuke!

I guess I don't see your point. This isn't just about defense. It's about Tyus being poor at everything these days. Same for Justise. Justise at least gives effort but is fouling a lot and limiting himself. Tyus and Jah don't play with a sense of urgency. They have poor body language. They seemed resigned to defeat with 10 minutes left in the game. Jah has put up good numbers but I don't think you can say he's played well.

_Gary
01-14-2015, 11:42 AM
I thought Coach K might intentionally pick up a tech in the last game against State (during one of the numerous questionable calls - and they were numerous), and then again last night. Just to light a fire under a team that seemed to lack focus and intensity. Perhaps he doesn't think that's part of the problem, and I certainly don't think it's the only problem, but it has been one of the problems the last couple of games.

No doubt there might need to be some retooling of the pressure defense, even if it's just to have our guards take a step back and not be pressuring so far beyond the three point line. If we are forcing turnovers then go for it. But after you get beat a few times I can't understand not making just a simple adjustment of telling them to back off and back up just a bit more.

Offensively, the issue is that we are having diminishing returns, seemingly, with each succeeding game. This is especially true as it pertains to our guards and wings, and then to a lesser extent to our frontcourt which really doesn't yield any surprises offensively in terms of what we were expecting (i.e. we have one, and only one, truly consistent frontcourt player we know will get us points night in and night out). First we lose a guy to transfer. That drops us to 9. At the same time Grayson is seeing less and less time and he's making less and less of the few minutes he's getting, especially in terms of making shots. So now we are down to 8. Marshall's minutes seem to be going down as we find ourselves in tighter and tighter games, and he too can't be counted on for much of any scoring so that drops us to 7 viable offensive threats. Matt's been in a terrible funk so we are down to 6 viable offensive threats. Now Tyus also seems to be in a funk (which seems to also be affecting his defense) so we are down to 5. Rasheed is up and down so in any given game we are down potentially to 4. Amile can do some things *if* we get him the ball in the right spot, but for the most part he's cleaning up from others in terms of offense so that kind of drops us down to 3. If Justise is off then we are down to 2. Right now Quinn and Jahlil are the only two that, for the most part, are guys we can count on for consistent offense. Notice I even gave the caveat "for the most part" with them. And I haven't even mentioned the free throws. Ugh...

What's all that mean? To me one of the biggest issues right now is that we need far more consistency on the offensive side of the ball. We have to know at least another 3 or 4 guys can get points on a regular basis besides our senior PG and our freshman C. A couple of these guys have got to find their stroke and be far more reliable so teams pay when Okafor is doubled. It just has to happen or we aren't going to be successful. I know that's not rocket science. But to my eyes that's the point recently: cascading offensive consistency from most everyone. When we were winning most of the guys were hitting an acceptable number of their shots. Right now it seems like most everyone has hit the wall at the same time offensively. That's a big part of what's killing us. Even Jahlil is rushing a few of his shots. He missed several last night that we've seen him make all year.

Perhaps this is just an anomaly and guys start hitting their shots again immediately. But if at least a few of them don't "perk up" soon, we are in for some serious trouble. An extra pass for a better shot from the perimeter wouldn't hurt either.

jv001
01-14-2015, 11:47 AM
Well, I got called away before I said who I would play. I would use Okafor, Jefferson, Plumlee, Sulaimon, and Cook, with the other four as subs and maybe some walkons. If nothing else, it would get the attention of the benched players and they would be begging for time before long. We would probably lose more games, but the way we are headed, we will anyway.

I really can't say who I would use right now because only Amile is playing up to snuff on defense. Well, maybe Marshall but I can't tell enough about him in only 5 or 6 minutes. I might insert Tyus into your lineup in place of MPIII. we need Marshall to replace Jahlil in case of foul trouble because I would tell Jahlil to be more aggressive on defense. I don't want him playing like Parker last year. It looked to me that Parker played soft so as to not get in foul trouble. Many posters on this site moan about Rasheed playing out of control, but so does Justise. Matter of fact, I think Rasheed is shooting a little better than Justise in ACC play. GoDuke!

CDu
01-14-2015, 11:53 AM
The offense seems to go as Tyus Jones goes. Other players come and go, but it seems that when he has really struggled our offense has suffered. And that makes sense: the PG (and the post scorer) tend to be the most important players on a team offensively outside of very particular offensive systems (and we don't have a very particular offensive system).

The defense just seems to be a combination of a bad mix of strategy and personnel (this seems to be a recurring theme) compounded by inexperience and/or poor communication (which may be a part of inexperience). We don't have very quick guards (and we have only one quick big), so the extended pressure by the guards is probably not the best strategy for this team. I'm not a coaching expert so I won't venture a guess as to what IS the best defensive strategy, but this does not appear to be it. I am happy that we've tried to reduce the amount of "hedge-and-recover" required of our bigs, as that was one of the bigger issues we've had defensively in recent years, but I think we need to identify a better plan for how our guards defend as well.

I don't think lack of effort/fire is the issue. These guys seem to want to do well. But they seem to be missing something on the defensive end, whether it be proper communication or instruction.

On offense, we don't seem to have much of a plan. There is a LOT of standing around as we try to set up a post feed to Okafor. I get that we want the ball in his hands as much as possible, but there really doesn't seem to be a plan B or plan C right now. It's breaking down into isolation play as a result. And this can be seen in our A:TO rate of just 1 since the Wisconsin game.

All of these seem to be issues with the coaching. We don't seem like a well-coached team right now, much like we didn't seem like a well-coached team last year. That needs to change.

Lar77
01-14-2015, 11:56 AM
Regarding defense, the last couple games Duke has been slumping on offense. 1.032 against NCSU. 1.015 against Wake. They've been turning it over more. 15 tonight. 10 against NCSU (which isn't awful). 14 against Wake.

I think the poor offense is contributing to poor defense. Lower energy, especially when you actually play a good defensive set and they either hit a tough shot, a touch foul is called or they get an offensive board, which happened several times tonight.

The wheels are wobbling, but I don't think they're off yet.

This. We have not been crisp on passes, leading to turnovers and run outs. Tough to guard against 25 footers off the glass (did he call "glass" on that?). We also seem to be slow on the boards and on rotations. Last night, we were generally good on screens up to a point.

The wheels are wobbling. K said we have confidence issues and are thinking and not acting. It may not be comfortable to watch, but recall 2010.

mgtr
01-14-2015, 11:59 AM
I really can't say who I would use right now because only Amile is playing up to snuff on defense. Well, maybe Marshall but I can't tell enough about him in only 5 or 6 minutes. I might insert Tyus into your lineup in place of MPIII. we need Marshall to replace Jahlil in case of foul trouble because I would tell Jahlil to be more aggressive on defense. I don't want him playing like Parker last year. It looked to me that Parker played soft so as to not get in foul trouble. Many posters on this site moan about Rasheed playing out of control, but so does Justise. Matter of fact, I think Rasheed is shooting a little better than Justise in ACC play. GoDuke!

I think most posters agree that Sheed is a loose cannon, but at least he is a cannon, not a pop gun. With regard to the three starting freshmen, I think they are playing for NBA scouts, not for Coach K. Well, everybody know how to fix that problem.

_Gary
01-14-2015, 12:01 PM
With regard to the three starting freshmen, I think they are playing for NBA scouts, not for Coach K. Well, everybody know how to fix that problem.

Gosh I hope you are wrong about that. I really thought these freshmen were different and more old-school. If what you think is going on is true, it will be a long and painful season. But I'm not quite willing to agree with you yet. I think these kids have some heart and aren't just looking ahead. At least I hope that's the case.

Duvall
01-14-2015, 12:03 PM
With regard to the three starting freshmen, I think they are playing for NBA scouts, not for Coach K.

That's a remarkably unsupported statement.

CajunDevil
01-14-2015, 12:05 PM
I'll take the bait and speculate on what adjustments K will make. K will start Quinn, Grayson, Matt, Amile and Plumlee. After a few minutes of spirited play we will see Sheed, Jah, Tyus, and Justice sub for all but Amile. Grayson will be a part of the rotation - he is needed to space the floor in a way that neither Matt nor Tyus do.

Plumlee should get 15+ min a game, which will allow Okafor to play more aggressive D. On O we need to be less Okafor-centric, more unselfish and look to utilize Justise and/or Amile in post when match ups warrant. We've become waaaay too predictable.

Other ideas?

Duke3517
01-14-2015, 12:12 PM
Maybe the freshman have dominated their level of competition for so long that this is the first time it is starting to get hard on them. I think they will adjust, still a long way to go. It's not like Kentucky is lighting the world on fire.

My biggest problem is Tyus's play, he has been very sloppy with the basketball, hesitant in transition, and just not playing good on the ball defense. I honestly think once Tyus's game gets going it will set up well for the rest of the team since he is the pg.

Wander
01-14-2015, 12:13 PM
75 points would have been enough to beat NC State in each of their previous 5 games. 74 points would have been enough to beat Miami in each of their previous 9 games.

The offense wasn't amazing last night but that's not the side of the floor where the big problems are, guys.

Kedsy
01-14-2015, 12:15 PM
We can't guard the 3 point line.

To be fair, the opposing three-point shooting in the last two games may just have been reversion to the mean. Going into the State game our opponents had only hit 26.4% of their three-point attempts, which was top 5 in the country. Even after the last two games, our opponents have only hit 30.6% of their threes, which is 71st in the country.


We cannot shoot three's.

For the season, we've hit 37.2% of our three attempts, good for 68th in the country. In the games before the State game, we'd hit 38.9% of our threes, which was top 40. A fairer statement would be, "We've shot poorly on threes for the past two games."


No brilliant insight here, but somebody needs to rethink the whole team.

I admit the last two games have been distressing, but four days ago we were the undisputed #2 team in the nation. "[R]ethink[ing] the whole team" might be just a bit of an overreaction.


Not easy to be a fan some years.

Try being a fan of pretty much any other team some time, and see how it feels.

vrob90
01-14-2015, 12:15 PM
It's difficult for me to believe that high school all americans lack the physical abilities to play competent defense. If that's true, it suggests that a different defensive plan needs to be implemented and soon. This problem isn't new, after all. I'm not a coach or an expert, but nothing could be more obvious than the fact that the key to getting Duke in trouble is having good guards who relentlessly drive on Duke's defenders. It never seems to fail and it's become so apparent in recent years that when, as a fan, you see that beginning early in a game, your heart sinks.

freshmanjs
01-14-2015, 12:15 PM
75 points would have been enough to beat NC State in each of their previous 5 games. 74 points would have been enough to beat Miami in each of their previous 9 games.

The offense wasn't amazing last night but that's not the side of the floor where the big problems are, guys.

they are not independent. turnovers lead to breakouts. frustration due to missing shots impacts defensive focus. made baskets allow better set defense. i agree the bigger issues are defensive, but the offensive problems are contributing to that.

_Gary
01-14-2015, 12:19 PM
they are not independent. turnovers lead to breakouts. frustration due to missing shots impacts defensive focus. made baskets allow better set defense. i agree the bigger issues are defensive, but the offensive problems are contributing to that.

Exactly. When you drive to the bucket and get stuffed over and over it leads to breakouts and easy buckets on the other end. This has been a clear pattern and problem of late. We have to be both smarter and stronger with the ball on offense if we want our defensive efficiency to increase. It's not the only issue, but it's been a big problem recently.

Kedsy
01-14-2015, 12:22 PM
Grayson will be a part of the rotation...


Plumlee should get 15+ min a game...

I'll go out on a limb and say neither of those things has any chance of happening in a non-blowout this season.


Maybe the freshman have dominated their level of competition for so long that this is the first time it is starting to get hard on them. I think they will adjust, still a long way to go. It's not like Kentucky is lighting the world on fire.

This is one of the best explanations I've heard for our recent two-game slide. Our freshmen have to get their confidence back and play up to their abilities, and then we'll be OK.


My biggest problem is Tyus's play, he has been very sloppy with the basketball, hesitant in transition, and just not playing good on the ball defense. I honestly think once Tyus's game gets going it will set up well for the rest of the team since he is the pg.

I also agree with this. I think the team gets its personality from Tyus, and while he's in a funk the team will be too. When (and I say "when," not "if," though who can say for sure?) he snaps out of it, the team will once again be one of the best in the country.

The Gordog
01-14-2015, 12:24 PM
Can't remember a time that Duke came off an embarrassing loss with a humiliating home defeat to an unranked team. Vegas had a 15 point line on this game, we lost by double digits.

Simply, K stubbornly overplays on D and we don't have the athletes/veterans to do it. He refuses to make adjustments and we continue to follow a 5 year pattern of peaking in November and teams figuring us out, with little to no adjustments. For the second straight year we have no on-court leadership.

Jahlil continues to drift out way to much on D and does not appear to be in the greatest of shape. We can't defend the high ball screen for the fifth year in a row. We get gutted by quick guards for the fifth year in a row. Our best player is very inadequate on defense for the fifth year in a row. And, no adjustments are made. How strange to say that we seem to play our best defense with Plumlee in the game. I'd love to see Jah and Marshall in at the same time, at least we would protect the paint for the first time in five years.

That may be one of the worst losses in the last 15 years of Duke basketball. No-one is ever above criticism. It's past time we start asking tough questions about the coaching staff. K refuses to adjust his defense to his talent level, it's a pattern and yet we will come out Saturday and see the exact same thing, and experience a third straight loss. Duke basketball is trending down....

While I agree with a lot of this, Mr. Mason Plumlee would like a word about the bolded statement and the 2013 team. What's that? You think he was not the best player on the team? Well Ryan Kelly was a terrific defender! Seriously, I take your pooint that depending on 1-and-dones to play D is kind of foolish (Kyrie, Rivers, Parker, Oak.)

jv001
01-14-2015, 12:24 PM
Exactly. When you drive to the bucket and get stuffed over and over it leads to breakouts and easy buckets on the other end. This has been a clear pattern and problem of late. We have to be both smarter and stronger with the ball on offense if we want our defensive efficiency to increase. It's not the only issue, but it's been a big problem recently.

So does many of our missed 3 point shots. Quinn is our best 3 point shooter so I don't cringe when he shoots as it has a pretty good chance of going in. But recently when Matt and Justise shoot, I do cringe because I'm thinking there's a fast break going the other way. I guess that's what Coach K was talking about when he said the team's confidence is gone. GoDuke!

Monmouth77
01-14-2015, 12:25 PM
I'll take the bait and speculate on what adjustments K will make. K will start Quinn, Grayson, Matt, Amile and Plumlee. After a few minutes of spirited play we will see Sheed, Jah, Tyus, and Justice sub for all but Amile. Grayson will be a part of the rotation - he is needed to space the floor in a way that neither Matt nor Tyus do.
Plumlee should get 15+ min a game, which will allow Okafor to play more aggressive D. On O we need to be less Okafor-centric, more unselfish and look to utilize Justise and/or Amile in post when match ups warrant. We've become waaaay too predictable.

Other ideas?

At this point, while I don't think we can rule out the possibility of creative lineup experiments, I doubt we will really see more of Grayson Allen. Like the other freshmen, he has a world of potential, and he does at least hit his free throws (which is why he's been subbed in at the end of games), but especially against Louisville (on the road) we need our absolute best ball handlers to break intense full court pressure. And ball handling is probably Allen's biggest weakness right now.

No disagreement that we've become predictable in our patterns of play (on both sides of the floor) but if our problem is one of confidence and maturity, as Coach K suggested, as seems likely from the snowballing turnovers and panicked play we've seen the last couple of games, I'm not sure benching guys is going to be the answer.

There are no quick fixes here. I expect to see our best ballhandlers (Cook, Tyus, Rasheed) on the floor together a lot against Louisville, and depending on how well Jefferson can defend Harrell, maybe a twin towers lineup (ie; more Marshall) for at least part of the game. And if we are going to use some alternative defensive strategies, this is a good game to try them. Jones and Rozier are not slouches from 3, but neither are they as good as State and Miami's shooting tandems. We need to value the ball in this game and guard the paint.

jv001
01-14-2015, 12:33 PM
All I had to do to cheer myself up was go over to the uncheaters thread and read a few posts. Hey, I'm feeling better already. You should all try it. Next Play! :cool: GoDuke!

wilko
01-14-2015, 12:37 PM
I dont have the fortitude to meander ALL of the pages in this thread.

Its always ruff after a loss. I'm no different. I was highly frustrated last night and went to bed disappointed before the game ended.

In some ways the WORST outcome was beating Wisconsin the way we did...
It gave us a glimpse... a vision and hope of what could be....

So for my own mental health I need to back off and re access.

Here is a short list to help other find their happy place....

1. Have more sex.
2. Play with puppies.
3. Give more hugs.
4. Listen to upbeat music.
5. Laugh more.
6. Meditate.
7. Hold hands.
8. Get a massage.

DukeDevilDeb
01-14-2015, 12:41 PM
Well, except for losing our two Assistant Head Coaches in the past two years.

I think the impact of losing Chris, then Steve is greater than any of us realize. How could K not have come to depend on them tremendously? I love Capel, James and Scheyer, but none of them have the combined coaching experience at Duke that Wojo and Chris had.

Also, note that both of these new head coaches are using zone. I am uncertain about what exactly caused our meltdown at State and last night, but I nominate the following in no particular order:

DEFENSE (or lack thereof)
Poor shooting from 3 and no adjustment by players to try something else
Lack of experience vs a very experience (tho not together) Miami team
And what about coaching?

I have met and talked with Coach K many times--had his kids and lots of the players in class. I truly believe he is the smartest, shrewdest human being I have ever met (and that's saying something). His defensive system works well when we have fast guards and outstanding scorers... think Bobby Hurley, Jason Williams/Chris Duhon.. but also when the players have EXPERIENCE (think Scheyer/Thomas/Zoobs/Smith/Singler).

I am longing for the days when our very best players (Grant, Bobby, Christian, Shane and others) stayed for 4 full years. Hell... I would take 3 now, or even two. But the problem I see with our very talented one and dones is that they are torn apart during the year they spend here... thinking about their success in high school that got them to Duke and their future lottery pick status and salary. They can't possibly focus on learning the Duke system as well as possible because--GUESS WHAT? Next year they won't be playing at Duke!

One more thing... we cannot be fair-weather fans. Our teams are going to lose and actually do lose a lot less than many other teams. We've just gotten spoiled. The trend everyone is citing about poor defensive coincides perfectly with the advent of one and dones... Kyrie to Austin (break without a one and done with which we made it to the Elite Eight), Parker to Jah. I fully believed Kyrie had the best chance of success but his toes got in the way.

Finally, do you think the players--or the coaches--aren't suffering over the last two games 1000 times more than we are? They were the ones who couldn't make shots, couldn't stop Miami, couldn't take control in Cameron where Duke teams are ALWAYS in control? They can react one of two ways: sink themselves with negative thinking or do everything they can to right the ship. There was not a single person sitting on the bench last night who wasn't humiliated and frustrated by our play. We don't need to add to their feelings. Let's try to help them turn a corner and come back to play Duke basketball!

Go Devils!

mgtr
01-14-2015, 12:45 PM
That's a remarkably unsupported statement.

Referring to my statement that the three starting freshmen were playing for NBA scouts, not for Coach K. My only support is the lack of enthusiasm and lack of emotion by these three players. I am not claiming that they haven't unpacked their bags, but rather that their major purpose for being at Duke is to get to the NBA. I guess they are "balling for dollars" (if you are old enough to get the reference), not balling for championships. At the beginning of the year, it was different -- they weren't sullen or disinterested. So, something changed. Of all people, I would expect Coach K to be able to deal with this -- heck he dealt with DeMarcus Cousins successfully!

DukieInKansas
01-14-2015, 12:48 PM
I like the idea someone brought up of benching the kids to attempt to light a fire in them. Quinn, Matt, Sheed, Amile, Plums. Start them and let the freshman know that the lethargy and disinterest is unacceptable, particularly Jah and Tyus.

What year was it that the team came to practice after a bad loss and Coach had removed all the chairs from the locker room? Is it time to lose the chairs again?

I trust the coaching staff to figure out the best way to light a fire under the team but I hope, for everyone's stress level, that it happens sooner rather than later.

CDu
01-14-2015, 12:49 PM
Per jv001's request (not my on vanity, I swear! :)) I'm copying two posts over to this thread from the "who are our leaders?" thread. Here is part 1:

Unfortunately, I don't think it is on-court leadership that is the problem. The last few games have looked like we don't know how to make adjustments and we don't have good awareness of where to be defensively. That is, unfortunately (or maybe fortunately) a coaching issue and not a leadership issue.

I still don't like that we're trying to pressure 30+ feet from the basket with guys who don't have the quickness or defensive chops to do that. Cook and Tyus Jones are below-average defensively. And while Sulaimon certainly has the desire to play D, it does not appear that he's actually good at moving laterally (he seems to have a bit of lead foot disease at times). [CDu's note: more on why I think the extended pressure has become problematic in part 2]

People have referenced the 2010 season as an example of a team that came together after some bad losses. A few things to note about that 2010 team are this:

1. That was a VERY veteran team. All 5 starters were upperclassmen, and as the season wore on those 5 starters took on a greater and greater proportion of the minutes. By season's end, the Plumlee brothers were playing the 10-15 mpg role and Dawkins was playing just a handful of minutes. In the final four games of our season, the starting 5 accounted for 170, 152, 170, and 183 minutes. That is an average of nearly 34 mpg for the starters. We simply don't have that kind of team this year.

2. That was a VERY big team. In terms of minutes in the final four games of the tournament, guys 6'8" or taller accounted for the following minutes: 119, 117, 120, and 118, That's an average of 37 mpg at SF with someone 6'8" or taller. Again, we just don't have that type of team. And even on the perimeter, we were long. Smith wasn't tall, but he had long arms. And Scheyer was 6'5", almost as big as our SF on this year's team. Out of necessity, we were always a long and physical team. We don't really have that option this year as we have only 3 guys over 6'6", and only 3 guys (Okafor, Winslow, Plumlee) who I would say are physical players.

3. That team made a HUGE midseason strategy change that played to the strengths above. First, they started playing Zoubek a lot more. This made the team more experienced (as he took his minutes from the Plumlees), and it made us a better rebounding team. Second, they went completely out of Duke tradition in backing off the perimeter defense. This again played to their strengths (more specifically, it played away from their weaknesses) by not forcing the not-so-quick Scheyer to risk getting blown by 30 feet from the basket, and it required less subs (so Kelly and Dawkins didn't have to play much on the perimeter as freshmen). It also made the "hedge and recover" a bit easier, as our bigs were hedging at 20 feet instead of 25-30 feet.

4. In part due to point #3, that team was a surprisingly good defensive team. Thomas became our best post defender since Shelden Williams and/or Battier. Zoubek was a very strong rebounder and a big big body inside, and he was one of our best communicators and surprisingly adept at positioning and hedge-and-recover defense. Smith was an elite defender for a college guard. And Singler was a surprisingly good defender both on the wing and in the post due to his effort, toughness, and bball smarts. And while Scheyer was not a great defender, he had terrific court awareness and (as noted in the previous bullet) our strategy mitigated his deficiencies.

We are certainly a more talented team than the 2010 team player by player. Nobody on that team was as talented as Okafor, and I'd argue that Winslow and Tyus Jones are more talented than anyone besides maybe Singler. But we are not going to be as big or as experienced or as good defensively as that team ultimately was.

Right now, despite looking like a very different team positionally than last year's squad, I'm concerned that we're heading towards a similar type of team in that we are very dependent upon scoring at an obscene rate to win. Aside from the Wisconsin game (which may be more to do with the matchups, as Wisconsin doesn't have the athleticism on the perimeter to sufficiently punish our guards defensively), we haven't really looked good defensively this year. And even in the Wisconsin game, it was more our ridiculous offensive efficiency (fueled in part by some unsustainable shooting) that led us to that awesome victory, as Wisconsin was still pretty efficient offensively in that game. And I think the possibility that our defensive strategy is outdated may be a big part of why.

CoSprings
01-14-2015, 12:53 PM
Anybody else notice that Big Jah drifts out of the paint fairly consistently on D? We struggle to defend the high ball screen because there is nobody in the lane. At several points last night, we literally had nobody in the paint, all five players were spread across the court. I could have driven the bloody lane.

For all of Marshall's offensive struggles, he does seem to stay anchored on D much better than Big Jah. Hoping that can change soon.

Jahlil also seems to have difficulty with the transition from offense to defense. Notice that for the most part, he is the last guy back on D. Is this a conditioning thing or a mental thing? It seems the freshman all struggle with moving on to the 'next play'. Even after Winslow's incredible block last night, instead of transitioning up the floor on offense, he just stood there.

Add these issues to the fact that for the most part, Matt, Marshall and Grayson are contributing virtually nothing on offense and you have the makings of a very mediocre team right now.

The Duke swagger is gone. Kids playing today grew up watching us lose to VCU, Lehigh, Mercer et. al...We haven't made it out of the first weekend of March 4 of the last 8 years. So, since 2007 there have been 4 seasons where Duke hasn't advanced to the third round. Prior to '07, one would have to go all the way back to 1985 to add up the 4 times we didn't advance at least to the third round.

The one-and-done era hasn't been kind to K. He's pretty much gone all in after Calipari with little pay-off. It's a shame, we have the talent, but the trends are all pointing in the wrong direction at this point. God forbid Louisville drubs us on Saturday, then what buttons are pushed?

CDu
01-14-2015, 12:53 PM
And here is part 2:

It is frustrating that we have stuck with, what I believe, to be an outdated defensive strategy of denying the ball way out on the perimeter. The irony is that Coach K hasn't been at all inflexible on the offensive end over the years. He has been extremely versatile on that end of the floor, revising the strategy each based on the specific skills of his players. It is only on the defensive end of the floor where he has been so dogmatic in his approach. Aside from flashing an occasional token zone defense (and I am NOT suggesting that switching to zone is the answer at all) and the well-documented strategic switch to a compact man-to-man later in the 2010 season), Coach has shown very little flexibility on defense. With the rules changes (both on and off court - more specifics below), I think his philosophies on defense are becoming more and more outdated.

Changes of note:
1. much greater emphasis on hand-checking on the perimeter, making it harder to be physical defensively on the perimeter
2. proliferation of the 3pt shot (even to bigs now) and the extension of the 3pt line, meaning pressure defense is now spreading you out that much more (making help defense that much harder)
3. NCAA-mandated reduction in practice time allowed, which reduces the amount of time Coach K and his staff can work with the team on defensive principles and positioning
4. the proliferation of early-entry and the one-and-done rules, which reduce the amount of time that the most talented players spend with a team (and really hurt team continuity in general)

In the 80s and early 90s, Coach K's defensive system worked great because he had veteran, talented guys who knew the system, and the system was well-designed for the college game. But now the game has evolved such that the floor is much more spread (way more 3 pt shooting from all positions on the floor, and an extended 3pt line). And the hand-check rules make it harder to contain ballhandlers on the perimeter too. So it's that much harder to play Coach K's style of defense. And on top of that, he has less time to teach that defensive philosophy (for a variety of reasons related to early entry and due to the practice restrictions). So we have guys less ready to play the system AND facing a landscape where it is harder to be effective in that system. It is sounding like a perfect storm.

We've been pretty fortunate until VERY recently that we haven't been overwhelmed with early entry. Aside from 1999, I think we had just two key guys leave before his junior year until after the 2009 season (Deng and McRoberts). Since then, we've seen substantially more turnover (not more than other programs per se, but much more than we'd faced previously). So it hasn't been until very recently that we've faced a need to revisit the philosophy/strategy on defense. In previous years, we could just write it off as "oh, we were young that year," or "oh, we just didn't have the right pieces," and expect better things the next year. But now we are moving full steam ahead into an era where many (if not most) of our best players are going to be underclassmen. And it seems like Coach K has yet to figure out how to adapt to the potential reality that his defensive philosophy may no longer work.

aimo
01-14-2015, 01:08 PM
Not the actual game, I mean, geez, we got stomped. I want to know what happened in the student section in front of section 14-ish when some guy was escorted out of the stadium. Looked like he was the one with the giant Jah head. Then, someone in the grad section was taken out. Anyone? Several cops came up the section 16 tunnel and blocked the view for a while "assessing" the situation, and when the fans asked them to move, they refused.

eddiehaskell
01-14-2015, 01:12 PM
I'm wondering if there is some way we can make teams pay for doubling Okafar? Perhaps throw the ball out as soon as the double comes and swing it around the court. I don't like what happens when Okafor has to dribble the ball out to find a teammate or dribble down to the post from the three point line. In a perfect world, when doubled, an elite big man should be allowing clean 3pt looks for Cook, Rasheed, Tyus, Matt. If we then knock down 40+% of those, we are competitive with any team in the country. Surely there's some offensive strategy that works against the double team.

eddiehaskell
01-14-2015, 01:18 PM
With so many people questioning man-to-man defense - has Coach K ever been asked about it? I'd like to hear his thoughts on why he thinks it's not working. He's not a dumb guy, so surely he's given it a lot of thought and talked it over with the assistants.

PallasAthena
01-14-2015, 01:19 PM
Was that game played at the local rec center?
I've never heard Cameron so quiet.
VERY Sad to see the people lucky enough to be inches from the court standing there in silence for 90% of the game. What a shame.

I was there, and that is not what I saw and heard. The crowd was loud and very involved. Student sections and the upstairs seats were PACKED on a very nasty night, weather-wise.

Sometimes it is hard to cheer when your favorite team is missing the front half of one-and-ones and taking bad shots. But I did not see people sitting on their hands.

Ultrarunner
01-14-2015, 01:21 PM
4. In part due to point #3, that team was a surprisingly good defensive team. Thomas became our best post defender since Shelden Williams and/or Battier. Zoubek was a very strong rebounder and a big big body inside, and he was one of our best communicators and surprisingly adept at positioning and hedge-and-recover defense. Smith was an elite defender for a college guard. And Singler was a surprisingly good defender both on the wing and in the post due to his effort, toughness, and bball smarts. And while Scheyer was not a great defender, he had terrific court awareness and (as noted in the previous bullet) our strategy mitigated his deficiencies.

I going to disagree with two elements of this particular statement. First, that Scheyer was not a great defender. Jon was one of the best off-the-ball defenders ever to play at Duke and very serviceable on-the-ball against shooting guards due to his length.

Second, I didn't find it at all surprising that Zoubek was adept at positioning. He had four years in the system, knew the schemes, and was finally healthy enough to execute. We're seeing the same thing with Marshall right now. His defense is light-years ahead of Jah, and the team defense, especially help defense, improves dramatically when he's in.

As far as the 2010 team being surprisingly good at defense, there are benefits to having upperclassmen who react within the system to freshmen, even hugely talented ones, that get caught flatfooted going, "Hunh?" as they get torched again.

Danke Shane
01-14-2015, 01:27 PM
I'm really curious what that recently installed, fancy-schmancy player tracking Sport VU camera system picks up from a game like last night... Is it possible that the coaches are over-relying on some million dollar computer output generated from practice sessions and not reacting in real time to in-game situations?

daveduke76
01-14-2015, 01:44 PM
Last non-freak out/world is ending loss of the year for me. First really quick turn around for a young team coming off a bad loss. They did not respond. Quinn and Amile did, because they've learned how. From now on though, those kids know everything that can hit you. Learn from it.

That was really, really, really, bad. Tyus and Justise may need to start Saturday's game on the bench to get a little perspective.

Probably a good idea for many reasons, their combined 3-15 wouldn't be missed! They both looked lost to me at times. I wonder if they would respond to benching or maybe the opposite, have set plays for them.

daveduke76
01-14-2015, 01:46 PM
With so many people questioning man-to-man defense - has Coach K ever been asked about it? I'd like to hear his thoughts on why he thinks it's not working. He's not a dumb guy, so surely he's given it a lot of thought and talked it over with the assistants.

I know this will never happen, but I'd love to see a triangle and 2 defense with these guys

Wander
01-14-2015, 01:55 PM
I know this will never happen, but I'd love to see a triangle and 2 defense with these guys

Wait, considering Cook and Tyus are arguably our two worst defenders, isn't this the exact worst type of defense for our team?

jv001
01-14-2015, 01:55 PM
And here is part 2:

It is frustrating that we have stuck with, what I believe, to be an outdated defensive strategy of denying the ball way out on the perimeter. The irony is that Coach K hasn't been at all inflexible on the offensive end over the years. He has been extremely versatile on that end of the floor, revising the strategy each based on the specific skills of his players. It is only on the defensive end of the floor where he has been so dogmatic in his approach. Aside from flashing an occasional token zone defense (and I am NOT suggesting that switching to zone is the answer at all) and the well-documented strategic switch to a compact man-to-man later in the 2010 season), Coach has shown very little flexibility on defense. With the rules changes (both on and off court - more specifics below), I think his philosophies on defense are becoming more and more outdated.

Changes of note:
1. much greater emphasis on hand-checking on the perimeter, making it harder to be physical defensively on the perimeter
2. proliferation of the 3pt shot (even to bigs now) and the extension of the 3pt line, meaning pressure defense is now spreading you out that much more (making help defense that much harder)
3. NCAA-mandated reduction in practice time allowed, which reduces the amount of time Coach K and his staff can work with the team on defensive principles and positioning
4. the proliferation of early-entry and the one-and-done rules, which reduce the amount of time that the most talented players spend with a team (and really hurt team continuity in general)

In the 80s and early 90s, Coach K's defensive system worked great because he had veteran, talented guys who knew the system, and the system was well-designed for the college game. But now the game has evolved such that the floor is much more spread (way more 3 pt shooting from all positions on the floor, and an extended 3pt line). And the hand-check rules make it harder to contain ballhandlers on the perimeter too. So it's that much harder to play Coach K's style of defense. And on top of that, he has less time to teach that defensive philosophy (for a variety of reasons related to early entry and due to the practice restrictions). So we have guys less ready to play the system AND facing a landscape where it is harder to be effective in that system. It is sounding like a perfect storm.

We've been pretty fortunate until VERY recently that we haven't been overwhelmed with early entry. Aside from 1999, I think we had just two key guys leave before his junior year until after the 2009 season (Deng and McRoberts). Since then, we've seen substantially more turnover (not more than other programs per se, but much more than we'd faced previously). So it hasn't been until very recently that we've faced a need to revisit the philosophy/strategy on defense. In previous years, we could just write it off as "oh, we were young that year," or "oh, we just didn't have the right pieces," and expect better things the next year. But now we are moving full steam ahead into an era where many (if not most) of our best players are going to be underclassmen. And it seems like Coach K has yet to figure out how to adapt to the potential reality that his defensive philosophy may no longer work.

First thank you for posting the two Part post on this thread. You make some very good points regarding way out front pressure defense(don't know what Duke calls this defense). College basketball has changed drastically over the years. Recent rules regarding hand checking, the block/charge rule and the slow drifting away from palming/carrying the ball. Then you throw in the OND players that never really learn how to play good man to man defense. As I've said in the past, I love Coach K, but he is not above criticism. As long as it's constructive criticism and not IC rant type criticism. Most of the perimeter players that have shut down defensive ability don't have the same offensive ability. There are some out there, but it seems Duke is not recruiting them. As you said, Coach K has adapted to the offensive players he has recruited but I don't think he's done the same on defense. Johnny Dawkins plays zone defense, Wojo plays zone defense, Collins plays zone defense, Amaker plays zone defense, Brey plays zone defense and I think Caple's teams played zone defense as well. I'm not saying Duke should play zone defense as a primary defense, but it looks like it would give our opponents something to prepare for. Then we could play the pack line man to man for the major portion of the game and throw in a little pressing to give the opponent something to think about. When Miami's coach said that he pretty much knew his guards could beat the Duke guards if they picked up high, that should tell us something. Even the star of the game(Rodriguez) made the same statement. I'm hoping that the staff can come up with something to get us back on track. I don't like Duke starting out 2-2 in ACC play and maybe staring at 2-3 after playing a good Louisville team. GoDuke!

daveduke76
01-14-2015, 01:57 PM
I thought Coach K might intentionally pick up a tech in the last game against State (during one of the numerous questionable calls - and they were numerous), and then again last night. Just to light a fire under a team that seemed to lack focus and intensity. Perhaps he doesn't think that's part of the problem, and I certainly don't think it's the only problem, but it has been one of the problems the last couple of games.

No doubt there might need to be some retooling of the pressure defense, even if it's just to have our guards take a step back and not be pressuring so far beyond the three point line. If we are forcing turnovers then go for it. But after you get beat a few times I can't understand not making just a simple adjustment of telling them to back off and back up just a bit more.

Offensively, the issue is that we are having diminishing returns, seemingly, with each succeeding game. This is especially true as it pertains to our guards and wings, and then to a lesser extent to our frontcourt which really doesn't yield any surprises offensively in terms of what we were expecting (i.e. we have one, and only one, truly consistent frontcourt player we know will get us points night in and night out). First we lose a guy to transfer. That drops us to 9. At the same time Grayson is seeing less and less time and he's making less and less of the few minutes he's getting, especially in terms of making shots. So now we are down to 8. Marshall's minutes seem to be going down as we find ourselves in tighter and tighter games, and he too can't be counted on for much of any scoring so that drops us to 7 viable offensive threats. Matt's been in a terrible funk so we are down to 6 viable offensive threats. Now Tyus also seems to be in a funk (which seems to also be affecting his defense) so we are down to 5. Rasheed is up and down so in any given game we are down potentially to 4. Amile can do some things *if* we get him the ball in the right spot, but for the most part he's cleaning up from others in terms of offense so that kind of drops us down to 3. If Justise is off then we are down to 2. Right now Quinn and Jahlil are the only two that, for the most part, are guys we can count on for consistent offense. Notice I even gave the caveat "for the most part" with them. And I haven't even mentioned the free throws. Ugh...

What's all that mean? To me one of the biggest issues right now is that we need far more consistency on the offensive side of the ball. We have to know at least another 3 or 4 guys can get points on a regular basis besides our senior PG and our freshman C. A couple of these guys have got to find their stroke and be far more reliable so teams pay when Okafor is doubled. It just has to happen or we aren't going to be successful. I know that's not rocket science. But to my eyes that's the point recently: cascading offensive consistency from most everyone. When we were winning most of the guys were hitting an acceptable number of their shots. Right now it seems like most everyone has hit the wall at the same time offensively. That's a big part of what's killing us. Even Jahlil is rushing a few of his shots. He missed several last night that we've seen him make all year.

Perhaps this is just an anomaly and guys start hitting their shots again immediately. But if at least a few of them don't "perk up" soon, we are in for some serious trouble. An extra pass for a better shot from the perimeter wouldn't hurt either.

My thought to get the other guys involved besides Cook and okafor would be to start running set plays for them. Make them a part of the offence, they are standing around too much. The nice team chemistry of December seems to be gone.

Philadukie
01-14-2015, 02:14 PM
And here is part 2:

It is frustrating that we have stuck with, what I believe, to be an outdated defensive strategy of denying the ball way out on the perimeter. The irony is that Coach K hasn't been at all inflexible on the offensive end over the years. He has been extremely versatile on that end of the floor, revising the strategy each based on the specific skills of his players. It is only on the defensive end of the floor where he has been so dogmatic in his approach. Aside from flashing an occasional token zone defense (and I am NOT suggesting that switching to zone is the answer at all) and the well-documented strategic switch to a compact man-to-man later in the 2010 season), Coach has shown very little flexibility on defense. With the rules changes (both on and off court - more specifics below), I think his philosophies on defense are becoming more and more outdated.

Changes of note:
1. much greater emphasis on hand-checking on the perimeter, making it harder to be physical defensively on the perimeter
2. proliferation of the 3pt shot (even to bigs now) and the extension of the 3pt line, meaning pressure defense is now spreading you out that much more (making help defense that much harder)
3. NCAA-mandated reduction in practice time allowed, which reduces the amount of time Coach K and his staff can work with the team on defensive principles and positioning
4. the proliferation of early-entry and the one-and-done rules, which reduce the amount of time that the most talented players spend with a team (and really hurt team continuity in general)

In the 80s and early 90s, Coach K's defensive system worked great because he had veteran, talented guys who knew the system, and the system was well-designed for the college game. But now the game has evolved such that the floor is much more spread (way more 3 pt shooting from all positions on the floor, and an extended 3pt line). And the hand-check rules make it harder to contain ballhandlers on the perimeter too. So it's that much harder to play Coach K's style of defense. And on top of that, he has less time to teach that defensive philosophy (for a variety of reasons related to early entry and due to the practice restrictions). So we have guys less ready to play the system AND facing a landscape where it is harder to be effective in that system. It is sounding like a perfect storm.

We've been pretty fortunate until VERY recently that we haven't been overwhelmed with early entry. Aside from 1999, I think we had just two key guys leave before his junior year until after the 2009 season (Deng and McRoberts). Since then, we've seen substantially more turnover (not more than other programs per se, but much more than we'd faced previously). So it hasn't been until very recently that we've faced a need to revisit the philosophy/strategy on defense. In previous years, we could just write it off as "oh, we were young that year," or "oh, we just didn't have the right pieces," and expect better things the next year. But now we are moving full steam ahead into an era where many (if not most) of our best players are going to be underclassmen. And it seems like Coach K has yet to figure out how to adapt to the potential reality that his defensive philosophy may no longer work.

Very thoughtful and persuasive. I can get on board with this.

It begs a question though (and maybe, at the risk of being presumptuous, this is what K has already considered): what is the next best alternative system, both for this team, at this point in the season, and for the program in general given the new landscape of college basketball? And, more importantly, would it actually yield better results? The consensus seems to be that the pack line scheme or a similar "gap defense" scheme is the way to go (great piece from Grantland by the way). The logic for why it would work better given the personnel of this team is convincing. But, it seems to me that employing another defensive scheme at this point would require an awful amount of re-education and practice to instill properly.

In other words, one of the assumptions seems to be that changing the scheme by packing it in is rather simple to do, in the sense that it doesn't require a whole lot. Just play the same man-to-man but closer to the basket, right? But I'm not so sure that's the case. Reading and listening to comments by Bennett for instance makes me think that playing a "gap" defense requires a different understanding of positioning, rotations, shading, and other nuances. Furthermore, it sounds like it takes time in a program to learn that system properly as much as our "deny" system does (“time” as in a couple of years in the program). So I don't think it's as simple as saying "hey guys, we're going to play the same defense we've been playing but just more packed in." And I'm not suggesting CDu that you're saying this, but it seems to be the thinking of some folks on this board and others.

So it’s really a couple different questions in my mind: Would a gap scheme, if it was properly learned and implemented, work more effectively given the personnel we have this year and the landscape of college basketball in general? I’m convinced that’s the case. But could this team actually re-learn a new system in order for it to be more effective than what we’re already doing this season (or at least did well at the beginning of the season)? I’m not sure that’s the case.

g-money
01-14-2015, 02:15 PM
We've got three freshmen in the starting five. You can't really compare this Duke team to past teams without factoring that in, IMO.

These freshmen have proven themselves winners at every level prior to college. I for one would much rather see them struggle in January, with plenty of time left on the all-too-short shot clock that represents their time at Duke, than in March like last year.

For kids like ours, and for Coach K as well, there is no bigger motivator than losing. They will get it figured out.

Kfanarmy
01-14-2015, 02:23 PM
I like the idea someone brought up of benching the kids to attempt to light a fire in them. Quinn, Matt, Sheed, Amile, Plums. Start them and let the freshman know that the lethargy and disinterest is unacceptable, particularly Jah and Tyus.

I'm sorry, I just don't see this. I believe the team lost some mojo somewhere and has a confidence problem as described by Coach K. Benching players who have a confidence problem, for others who seem to have the same, doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I just saw it differently, bad passing yes; disinterest NO.

Bring the D in so guys aren't needlessly chasing the opposition all the way down the court. Protect the three point line, at the three point line, vice everywhere in the half court. If you try a press and it doesn't work after two, maybe three, attempts drop it. Tell Okafor its OK to get a foul or two. Get back to hitting shots, by taking them.

Bench a guy for a few minutes, if he throws a couple of bad passes or doesn't hustle...but at this point, I think they are hustling, and getting frustrated...but if you bench them with a confidence problem, I think you may compound vice fixing it.

David Bunkley
01-14-2015, 02:31 PM
Here are a few thoughts about what I have seen over the last 4 games and some suggestions about how a few minor issues (and one major issue) can be corrected.

Coach K can thank me as he’s cutting down the nets in April (I kid, I kid).

Defense

Change the defensive approach; stop pressing, trapping, and overplaying the passing lanes. It’s not working. Duke does not appear to have the defenders to pull it off without fouling, their rotations are sloppy, and they can’t help and recover. Duke would be better served by defending 3pt line and in and funneling people towards help, than they have been lately applying pressure. Overplaying has led to the Blue Devil defenders repeatedly being beaten off the dribble and leaving the rim wide open due to poor rotations.

Also, two-headed monster of Sheed and Matt coming off the bench together was a nice contrast to Quinn and Tyus and could be used when Coach K wants to ramp up the on-ball pressure. That backcourt seems effective in spurts, especially with Plumlee as the big.

Speaking of Marshall Plumlee, why do all 3 Plumlees hedge 30 feet from the basket? Surely that’s not the game plan. If Coach K wants to blitz the ball handler to try and force a turnover, that’s one thing, but this business of hedging almost always seems to end in a foul.

Offense

Jahlil Okafor doesn’t seem to do a whole lot on offense when he doesn’t have the ball. He needs to set more ball screens (insert Mitch McGary joke here), flash, and pick away. Also, and most importantly, he needs to do more after he kicks the ball out. Once he passes out of the double, he should look to either repost, or flash across the paint to the strong side as the ball swings, Block-FT Line-Block. I’m not a big Len Elmore fan, but he and Fran Fraschilla discussed this in length last night and I have been screaming it at my TV since early December. Okafor has shown that he plays well on the move, so get him on the move.

Everybody not named Jahlil Okafor needs to quit forcing it into him without a pass-fake. Once the ball does go inside, either cut, screen away, or slide and reset. Duke’s perimeter players have not been moving well enough without the ball recently. This has allowed defenders to swarm Okafor without fear of repercussion. The time when they have been active have pretty much always resulted in success (Winslow dunks, Amile layups, open 3’s for our shooters). Be active.

Justise Winslow has all of the tools to be a superstar. Get off of the 3 point line. Actually, let me clarify. Justise should drive the ball 3 times for every 1 time he considers shooting a 3. He seems especially adept at putting the ball on the floor, getting by his man, and getting in the paint. I’d like to see him utilize those skills to break down opposing defenses and create easier offense.

Aside from that, this Duke team seems to have success with the side Pick & Roll. It should become more of a staple in this offense.

Offensive Rebounding

Based on the number of run-outs Duke has allowed in the last two games, I would suggest that they only send 3 to the offensive glass. Either that, or who ever is at the top of the key needs to do a much better job of working to stop the ball initially and everyone else needs to hustling back and help. These run-outs for dunks are momentum changers that can be avoided with a little effort.

Outlook

This team was never going to go undefeated. This team was always going to stumble, but if they can pick themselves up, regroup, and move forward, then the potential outcome is the same as it was when they left Wisconsin. Most of the issues that have surfaced are related to timing and effort. This isn’t a team that lacks athletes or size. This team only lacks experience…and they have a month and a half to gain it.

#GODUKE

CDu
01-14-2015, 02:36 PM
I going to disagree with two elements of this particular statement. First, that Scheyer was not a great defender. Jon was one of the best off-the-ball defenders ever to play at Duke and very serviceable on-the-ball against shooting guards due to his length.

Second, I didn't find it at all surprising that Zoubek was adept at positioning. He had four years in the system, knew the schemes, and was finally healthy enough to execute. We're seeing the same thing with Marshall right now. His defense is light-years ahead of Jah, and the team defense, especially help defense, improves dramatically when he's in.

As far as the 2010 team being surprisingly good at defense, there are benefits to having upperclassmen who react within the system to freshmen, even hugely talented ones, that get caught flatfooted going, "Hunh?" as they get torched again.

I actually don't disagree with most of this. Scheyer had great court awareness and energy, so he was a strong off-ball defender. Against slower wings he was a solid on-ball defender as well. My point was more that, due to their limitations athletically (Scheyer was not quick and couldn't jump, Zoubek was downright slow and couldn't jump) they were surprisingly effective defensively.

Only one minor quibble: Scheyer wasn't actually very long. He was tall for a college guard, but he had really short arms for a basketball player. So in terms of length, he played more like a 6'2"/6'3" guy than a 6'5" guy.

Saratoga2
01-14-2015, 02:51 PM
Before I read through 12 pages on this string, I want to put my own thoughts in.

First of all, it won't help to be critical of individual players or the coaches staff. We are what we are and that is not too good at the moment. Perhaps we will have trouble breaking 500 in the ACC games.

On the offense:

Jahlil continues to be double teamed as opponents have found that at least slows his scoring somewhat. Still an excellent scorer and a very good rebounder. He did get help against Miami as Amile made several good scoring moves and Quinn was doing a lot of scoring. There also was help from Rasheed who shows flashes of what he can do.
Other than that, our offense was pretty weak with Justise, Matt and Tyus not doing much. I didn't expect much from MP3 nor Grayson at this point.

The free throw shooting was good for some of the players. Quinn, Tyus, Rasheed and Grayson looked good while the rest were off.

Thee turnovers were an issue in the game as Duke is giving away too many opportunities. Some are lazy passes and some are being overaggressive when trying to make plays.

Shooting was off except for Quinn and Rasheed to an extent.

What could be done to improve the offense:
1. I believe that Duke is playing a very short bench and is also trying to apply a lot of defensive pressure. That leaves the guys tired on the floor and it shows up in the second half. Apparently it has been decided that MP3 des not have the skills to be an offensive threat so he is not getting much PT. Semi is gone at a time where we could use another player in the 6'8" range. Grayson is also not being used much. That puts the bulk of the play on players, and when one is in foul trouble early, on just 6. Perhaps we need to reduce the defensive pressure outside the 3 point line and do more pack line to help with stamina. Also, maybe we need to play Grayson and MP3 a little more so we don't get exhausted.

2. Tyus has got to start looking at himself as a scoring threat. He is a very skillful player and should be able to put more pressure on the opponents defense. We have seen him do that in the Wisconsin game and he has to be asked to do more by the coaches.

3. Rasheed needs to avoid getting a little too energetic out there and only take what is available. He does get committed to moves even when they are not there. Turnovers result.

4. The trick of getting Justise going needs to be found. He is a terrific talent but I really don't know how to get him untracked so we can add an offensive threat.

What to do about defense:
1. What I said about offensive and tired players applies here. We have a shorter bench than we may have hoped for. The guys are tiring. Our efforts are worse in the second half. Cut down on the aggressive defense away from the basket. Pull the defense in a little so that we have a better chances against teams with excellent guard play. It should also help us inside.

2. Remind the players not to foul by reaching and bumping, especially away from the basket. Matt and Rasheed are both more likely to pick up fouls and need to be made more aware of the negative effects of these fouls on the outcome of the game

3. We are being hurt by the penetration of opponent guards. If we pack in more, we should be able to reduce that issue.


Generally, we have a lot of good players who try very hard. We are not great shooters from the outsidde wwith the exception of Quinn. We are also not very big except at center. We have to play to our strengths and hope that will be enough.

CDu
01-14-2015, 02:55 PM
Very thoughtful and persuasive. I can get on board with this.

It begs a question though (and maybe, at the risk of being presumptuous, this is what K has already considered): what is the next best alternative system, both for this team, at this point in the season, and for the program in general given the new landscape of college basketball? And, more importantly, would it actually yield better results? The consensus seems to be that the pack line scheme or a similar "gap defense" scheme is the way to go (great piece from Grantland by the way). The logic for why it would work better given the personnel of this team is convincing. But, it seems to me that employing another defensive scheme at this point would require an awful amount of re-education and practice to instill properly.

In other words, one of the assumptions seems to be that changing the scheme by packing it in is rather simple to do, in the sense that it doesn't require a whole lot. Just play the same man-to-man but closer to the basket, right? But I'm not so sure that's the case. Reading and listening to comments by Bennett for instance makes me think that playing a "gap" defense requires a different understanding of positioning, rotations, shading, and other nuances. Furthermore, it sounds like it takes time in a program to learn that system properly as much as our "deny" system does (“time” as in a couple of years in the program). So I don't think it's as simple as saying "hey guys, we're going to play the same defense we've been playing but just more packed in." And I'm not suggesting CDu that you're saying this, but it seems to be the thinking of some folks on this board and others.

So it’s really a couple different questions in my mind: Would a gap scheme, if it was properly learned and implemented, work more effectively given the personnel we have this year and the landscape of college basketball in general? I’m convinced that’s the case. But could this team actually re-learn a new system in order for it to be more effective than what we’re already doing this season (or at least did well at the beginning of the season)? I’m not sure that’s the case.

These are great points/questions, and I completely agree with you. While I do think that simply playing the same principles but more packed in will help, I don't think it fixes our problems (nor do I necessarily think it is the best approach). What that would do is as follows:

1. Cuts down on energy outlay for our perimeter guys. Playing defense well is hard work. It requires a lot of energy to stay in front of your man. The further away from the basket you ask your guards to defend intensely, the harder it is on them physically. If you aren't going to play a ton of bodies, that's going to wear you down for stretches in a game (assuming you are diligent in trying to do it). As an addition, I think a lot of this energy is wasted energy, because we aren't necessarily getting the rewards of this pressure. We aren't creating many turnovers, and unless the opponent has shaky guard play we aren't really disrupting the offense either. Teams are still getting easy shots. In some cases (guards with good ballhandling and confidence), the shots are actually getting easier, because once our ball pressure is beaten, so much more of the floor is opened up.

2. Cuts down on the amount of court that our bigs have to cover. It is no secret that having a big man defending on the perimeter is not ideal. Those guys usually like being within sniffing distance of the basket on both ends of the floor. Well, if you have your guards setting up pressure 25+ feet from the basket, guess where those on-ball screens from the opposing bigs will happen? You guessed it: 25+ feet from the basket. So if that's where the screens are happening, that leaves your big man two options defensively: (a) step out way away from the basket to stop dribble penetration, either with a hard hedge or an outright switch, or (b) play soft help defense closer to the basket (perhaps starting around 15-18 feet) and allow the guard to have 5-10 feet of head start in an attack of the basket. Option (a) requires your big to hustle way out of the paint area and then recover way back to the lane (if it is a hedge/recover play) or defend a guard 25+ feet from the basket (on a switch). Option (b) gives the opposing guard ample time to decide how best to attack, and allows him three options (drive, pull up for a wide open 3, or pass without obstruction to a teammate). Neither is an ideal circumstance.

So by applying pressure way out on the perimeter, you are putting a LOT more pressure on both your guard (to work harder to stay in front of his man) and your big (to handle a ball screen so far from the basket). This increases the likelihood that one or both are going to get beaten individually. That, in turn, puts more pressure on your teammates to be aware and rotate defensively. The more rotating you have to do defensively to help on a lost assignment, the more likely you are to miss a rotation assignment and leave someone wide open. And the extension of the 3pt line and the increased use of the 3pt shot in general only exacerbate the problem by spreading out your defense (making that help rotation that much more difficult).

All of this is just reiterating the problem rather than the solution. If we pack it in, we introduce a different set of challenges (most notably, more open 3s).

So to answer your questions:

Short-term: I actually do think "just packing it in" may be preferable as a short-term (i.e., this year) solution. But it is not a panacea by any means, because it still doesn't address issues in complicated rotations on help defense (which will still happen even when packed in, just less often and less drastically). I don't know enough about the pack-line defense to speak adequately on it. I do know that it is a completely different philosophy (as a zone is a completely different philosophy as well), and so changing the philosophy would require at least an offseason if not more to install. So for the short term, I'd say packing it in is our best bet.

Long-term: Either a revision to our recruiting philosophy to get longer and quicker defenders or a revision to our defensive philosophy would be the only solution I can envision. [with the caveat being that I'm by no means an expert, and may be overlooking a third option that maintains the philosophy and recruiting approach but tweaks something else]

daveduke76
01-14-2015, 02:56 PM
Wait, considering Cook and Tyus are arguably our two worst defenders, isn't this the exact worst type of defense for our team?

Maybe, but at least there would be really solid post presence - if Cook and Tyus lose their guys they will have to run into the bigs

CDu
01-14-2015, 03:10 PM
First thank you for posting the two Part post on this thread. You make some very good points regarding way out front pressure defense(don't know what Duke calls this defense). College basketball has changed drastically over the years. Recent rules regarding hand checking, the block/charge rule and the slow drifting away from palming/carrying the ball. Then you throw in the OND players that never really learn how to play good man to man defense. As I've said in the past, I love Coach K, but he is not above criticism. As long as it's constructive criticism and not IC rant type criticism. Most of the perimeter players that have shut down defensive ability don't have the same offensive ability. There are some out there, but it seems Duke is not recruiting them. As you said, Coach K has adapted to the offensive players he has recruited but I don't think he's done the same on defense. Johnny Dawkins plays zone defense, Wojo plays zone defense, Collins plays zone defense, Amaker plays zone defense, Brey plays zone defense and I think Caple's teams played zone defense as well. I'm not saying Duke should play zone defense as a primary defense, but it looks like it would give our opponents something to prepare for. Then we could play the pack line man to man for the major portion of the game and throw in a little pressing to give the opponent something to think about. When Miami's coach said that he pretty much knew his guards could beat the Duke guards if they picked up high, that should tell us something. Even the star of the game(Rodriguez) made the same statement. I'm hoping that the staff can come up with something to get us back on track. I don't like Duke starting out 2-2 in ACC play and maybe staring at 2-3 after playing a good Louisville team. GoDuke!

Thanks again. And you make excellent points about his disciples playing different defenses, which I hadn't noticed before.

Like you, I don't mean my posts to sound critical of Coach K. He is, without question, one of the greatest coaches in the history of college basketball - one could easily argue THE greatest coach. What he has done with the Duke program (a small, private, academically-rigorous school right down the street from - at the time - two large, public schools with - at the time - more established programs) over the course of 35 years is just amazing. His run of success from 1986-1994 might be the single most impressive run of tournament success in history, even considering Wooden's UCLA runs. And he followed that up with another fantastic run from 1998-2006 earning 7 #1 seeds, reaching 3 more Final fours, and getting another title, along with numerous ACC titles. The man is obviously legit, and he could never win another game in his career and still go down on the shortest of lists of greatest coaches ever.

But it is just hard not to note that using the same defensive philosophy over a 30+ year stretch is likely to result in an outdated strategy at some point. And I do fear that that point may be upon us. I don't think we're going to stop recruiting one-and-done talents and they aren't going to shorten the 3pt line, and we aren't likely to suddenly stop seeing teams play "stretch-4s". So I think we're going to need to adapt defensively to keep up with the times. A defense with more zone-like principles and less focus on extended perimeter defensive pressure may be necessary.

Either that, or we need to revisit our recruiting focus to be more on longer, quicker, more "athletic" players at guard/wing. The downside to that of course is that we'd be restricting our recruiting pool and more likely to end up with guys less talented offensively (there are only so many elite athletes who are also skilled offensive players), and the ones we'd get would be even more likely to stay for only 1 year.

Kedsy
01-14-2015, 03:14 PM
But, it seems to me that employing another defensive scheme at this point would require an awful amount of re-education and practice to instill properly.

This is totally correct. The pack-line defense Virginia uses is very complicated and there's a zero percent chance that we could install it and use it at this point in the season. It's possible we could reign our existing D a little at this point -- CDu seems to think we did this in 2010, though my own memory says we did it at the beginning of the season (at this point I'm not sure which of us is correct). In any event, minor changes can be successful. Major changes are less likely to work very well.


We are what we are and that is not too good at the moment. Perhaps we will have trouble breaking 500 in the ACC games.

Do you really believe that? I don't.



The free throw shooting was good for some of the players. Quinn, Tyus, Rasheed and Grayson looked good while the rest were off.

This probably isn't going to change. The four players you name can shoot free throws pretty well. The other five players can't.


Semi is gone at a time where we could use another player in the 6'8" range.

You keep bringing this up, but Semi wasn't going to play much (if at all) in these games. Whether we could have used him or not, it wasn't going to happen, and so we haven't lost anything tangible this season from his transfer.


Also, maybe we need to play Grayson and MP3 a little more so we don't get exhausted.


We have a shorter bench than we may have hoped for. The guys are tiring.

We're playing the same length of rotation that we always do. There's no more reason for this team to get exhausted (and thus no more reason to give the 8th and 9th men more playing time) than there has been in every other season under Coach K.

Not only that, I don't see us tiring in the second half. Against State, we played our best ball of the game in the last five minutes.


The trick of getting Justise going needs to be found. He is a terrific talent but I really don't know how to get him untracked so we can add an offensive threat.

Justise scored 20 points two games ago. He scored 10 points against State, though he shot a poor percentage. Everyone has a bad game now and again -- it's not a matter of getting him "untracked."

uh_no
01-14-2015, 03:21 PM
We've got three freshmen in the starting five. You can't really compare this Duke team to past teams without factoring that in, IMO.

These freshmen have proven themselves winners at every level prior to college. I for one would much rather see them struggle in January, with plenty of time left on the all-too-short shot clock that represents their time at Duke, than in March like last year.

For kids like ours, and for Coach K as well, there is no bigger motivator than losing. They will get it figured out.

last year's team struggled in january, and then struggled in february, and then in march. the two aren't dichotomous. This team is struggling through january. will it continue to struggle in february and march? who knows.

Duvall
01-14-2015, 03:25 PM
last year's team struggled in january, and then struggled in february, and then in march. the two aren't dichotomous. This team is struggling through january. will it continue to struggle in february and march? who knows.

Well, struggling *in* January, which is different from last year's team, which struggled in November and December as well.

CDu
01-14-2015, 03:26 PM
This is totally correct. The pack-line defense Virginia uses is very complicated and there's a zero percent chance that we could install it and use it at this point in the season. It's possible we could reign our existing D a little at this point -- CDu seems to think we did this in 2010, though my own memory says we did it at the beginning of the season (at this point I'm not sure which of us is correct). In any event, minor changes can be successful. Major changes are less likely to work very well.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. In-season changes to defensive strategy tend to need to be minor. Major overhauls take at least an offseason (if not more) to implement effectively. We aren't going to be able to roll out with an effective zone defense this year. Nor are we going to be able to run a pack-line defense. What we might be able to do better with would be packing it in a bit more, or switching on ball screens more (or less). Those types of changes are easier to implement quickly rather than systemic changes. That's the best we can hope for this year.

In terms of types of changes we could see that could work (not necessarily that we should go this route or that they WILL work):
- less extended pressure on the perimeter
- more/less/different switching patterns/responsibilities on ball screens
- different positional assignments (i.e., who guards whom?)
- different lineups

That's about it. I don't think "we are what we are going to always be this year" defensively, but I also don't think there is time to adequately implement a major strategic change defensive.

AtlDuke72
01-14-2015, 03:27 PM
. . . I feel like our coaches aren't trying . . .

Now there is a first ! We need to fire Coach K and get somebody who will try. Good grief . . . why didn't somebody think of this before?

slower
01-14-2015, 03:30 PM
I don't have the time or inclination to read through the whole thread. But I'll restate some things I've already said (going back to last year) and that others have probably said more eloquently then I have.

1. Our defensive philosophy, as currently constituted, lends itself to getting absolutely abused by more athletic run-and-jump players. Either start recruiting these types of players or change/revise the defensive philosophy.

2. Stop blaming the players. This is a "system" problem that has existed for several years. Just asking for "more effort" is not going to fix things.

3. Stop calling for replacing Okafor with Plumlee. That's utterly ridiculous.

This is on the coaching staff. Either evolve the system or resign ourselves to an unending string of being overrated and early tournament defeats. It's time to admit that the basketball landscape has changed.

We'll probably continue to beat "plodding" teams and get embarrassed by athletic teams. Aside from Winslow, who do we have that's a first-class fast-twitch athlete? Maybe Sheed. Maybe.

Also, any lineup that contains Plumlee, Amile and Matt Jones is offensive suicide.

Stop criticizing Winslow's effort. The guy is a warrior.

And lastly, stop calling these negative comments an overreaction. They are an honest observation, shared by many.

FerryFor50
01-14-2015, 03:38 PM
I agree with this wholeheartedly. In-season changes to defensive strategy tend to need to be minor. Major overhauls take at least an offseason (if not more) to implement effectively. We aren't going to be able to roll out with an effective zone defense this year. Nor are we going to be able to run a pack-line defense. What we might be able to do better with would be packing it in a bit more, or switching on ball screens more (or less). Those types of changes are easier to implement quickly rather than systemic changes. That's the best we can hope for this year.

In terms of types of changes we could see that could work (not necessarily that we should go this route or that they WILL work):
- less extended pressure on the perimeter
- more/less/different switching patterns/responsibilities on ball screens
- different positional assignments (i.e., who guards whom?)
- different lineups

That's about it. I don't think "we are what we are going to always be this year" defensively, but I also don't think there is time to adequately implement a major strategic change defensive.

The last two games showed that our opponents were going to hit threes regardless of how far out we defended them. Might as well take away the easier shots like drives/dunks and live with giving up the 3.

jv001
01-14-2015, 03:44 PM
I am really impressed with a lot of posts on this particular thread. Far and away better than the in game thread last night. That thread sounded like IC. I don't think Coach K will go all out zone or all out pack line defense this year. But I do expect to see the defense reeled in somewhat. We don't have the players to play full court man to man defense successfully. I know we talk about the 2010 team because that group of guys were able to turn it around at just the right time. But when you look at that team, there was experience there. It took Zoubs 4 years to get it(injuries), same with Thomas. Nolan became a much better player his junior year. And Coach K's move of Jon to the point was mastermind. I started to say that will be hard to do this season with our 3 freshman starters(turn it around). But then I remembered these 3 freshmen are way ahead of most freshmen in talent. So, it's possible for this team to get back to December style play. It's going to take hard work from the players and coaches for the 2015 Duke Blue Devils to make some loud noise in March. However it can be done because what this team lacks in experience, it can make up with talent and good coaching. GoDuke!

CDu
01-14-2015, 03:44 PM
The last two games showed that our opponents were going to hit threes regardless of how far out we defended them. Might as well take away the easier shots like drives/dunks and live with giving up the 3.

I tend to agree somewhat. I do think that dropping back will result in a higher 3pt % against. But I don't think it'll be drastically higher. As (I think) Kedsy noted, our 3pt defense this year has been pretty good overall. So we have been generally good at preventing the 3pt shot. But it's a matter of how effective we are at preventing easy layups/dunks and/or second-chance points (due to our rebounders being forced out of position with help defense on drives). If we're allowing layups/dunks/second-chance points at, say, a 60% rate, then we'd have to allow the opponent to shoot 40% from 3 to make "packing it in" less effective. And that's ignoring the foul aspect, where we get more ticky-tack fouls on the perimeter and probably allow more shooting fouls in the lane due to the extended pressure defense.

I think it's fair to say that on average, 3pt shooting will be better. But as you sort of allude, there are going to be games where the opponent gets hot (or cold) from 3, regardless of defensive pressure. So maybe it is preferable to give up a few more percentage points on 3s to reduce the likelihood that teams can pick us apart with drives to the basket.

DevilWearsPrada
01-14-2015, 03:50 PM
I have learned so much reading this thread. I appreciate everyone's comments.

I have been praying to the Basketball Gods, since the NCST game and more since the Miami game.

Does anyone know how Practice went today???? Or was there an early AM practice or practice after the game last night???


Knowing that Coach K and Staff will mix it up for the Louisville game, and praying our Duke team and swagger comes back. This team had some tough games in Nov and Dec !!!!! Shake it off, and lets Reboot !

Let's Go Duke!

Loved Loved the Coach K 1K Special on ESPN last night. So deserving!

FerryFor50
01-14-2015, 03:53 PM
I tend to agree somewhat. I do think that dropping back will result in a higher 3pt % against. But I don't think it'll be drastically higher. As (I think) Kedsy noted, our 3pt defense this year has been pretty good overall. So we have been generally good at preventing the 3pt shot. But it's a matter of how effective we are at preventing easy layups/dunks and/or second-chance points (due to our rebounders being forced out of position with help defense on drives). If we're allowing layups/dunks/second-chance points at, say, a 60% rate, then we'd have to allow the opponent to shoot 40% from 3 to make "packing it in" less effective. And that's ignoring the foul aspect, where we get more ticky-tack fouls on the perimeter and probably allow more shooting fouls in the lane due to the extended pressure defense.

I think it's fair to say that on average, 3pt shooting will be better. But as you sort of allude, there are going to be games where the opponent gets hot (or cold) from 3, regardless of defensive pressure. So maybe it is preferable to give up a few more percentage points on 3s to reduce the likelihood that teams can pick us apart with drives to the basket.

I think the last 2 games were catch-22 games. Our opponents were hitting the 3 at a ridiculous, unbelievable rate. Duke extended the defense and overplayed the 3s and gave up more drives and easy 2s.

If you think about it, isn't that how a lot of teams defend Duke for the most part? Works pretty well sometimes. I'd take my chances with a Miami team that is shooting 37% from 3 for the year (73rd in the nation) or a NCSU team that shoots 38% from 3 (50th in the country). But a team like UVA that shoots 40% (16th)? Then you perhaps extend the defense.

Devilwin
01-14-2015, 04:02 PM
I am, like most, confused. How did the team that beat Wisconsin, Michigan State, and UConn lose these last two? Defense gives up way too many snowbirds, and our offense looks confused. That being said, I still have faith in the guy that's won 997 games, I feel we bounce back Saturday. Never give up...

Kfanarmy
01-14-2015, 04:05 PM
I tend to agree somewhat. I do think that dropping back will result in a higher 3pt % against. But I don't think it'll be drastically higher. As (I think) Kedsy noted, our 3pt defense this year has been pretty good overall.... I think Duke can drop back to the three point line and, just by doing that, do a better job against the three and the drive. IMO, they've been extending further and further out from the three point line in an attempt to increase D pressure and had the opposite effect on good guards: ruptured the bubble within which their help D is capable of working. I think the basic D can work, and did early, if they drop the overplaying, and pressing outside the three point line, which I view kinda like the PhD version of the Duke D...it takes upperclassmen. Take the bells and whistles off and let the car work the way it was designed to begin with.

Sometimes the way to get better is to simplify, rather than complicate.

FerryFor50
01-14-2015, 04:06 PM
I think Duke can drop back to the three point line and, just by doing that, do a better job against the three and the drive. IMO, they've been extending further and further out from the three point line in an attempt to increase D pressure and had the opposite effect on good guards: ruptured the bubble within which their help D is capable of working. I think the basic D can work, and did early, if they drop the overplaying, and pressing outside the three point line, which is I veiw kinda as the PhD version of the Duke D...it takes upperclassmen. Take the bells and whistles off and let the car work the way it was designed to begin with.

It's also forcing Okafor to hedge, which he has not looked very good at doing so far.

MP3 is a decent hedger, but sometimes picks up cheap fouls 30 feet from the basket. I'd rather he earns that foul on a blocked shot attempt.

CDu
01-14-2015, 04:13 PM
I think Duke can drop back to the three point line and, just by doing that, do a better job against the three and the drive. IMO, they've been extending further and further out from the three point line in an attempt to increase D pressure and had the opposite effect on good guards: ruptured the bubble within which their help D is capable of working. I think the basic D can work, and did early, if they drop the overplaying, and pressing outside the three point line, which is I view kinda like the PhD version of the Duke D...it takes upperclassmen. Take the bells and whistles off and let the car work the way it was designed to begin with.

This is a great point. We've been largely working under the assumption that the extended pressure defense helps in reducing 3pt%. But it may well work the opposite way: if the pressure breaks down, rotations are required; those rotations have to come from farther away, leaving more time/room for the driver to identify an open man. And if the driver dishes to the open man on the 3 point line, he may be more likely to get an open 3 (again, because we are requiring a second rotation to get to that guy).

Again, this is all contingent on the breakdown at the point of attack. If you have the horses to apply the pressure, you can get away with it more easily (of course, if you have the horses, you can also cover the 3pt line in a packed defense pretty easily too, but that's a different debate). But all things being equal, it's much harder to defend EVERYTHING after breakdown at the point of attack in an extended defense than in a packed defense.

What you're gambling on with the extended defense is that there is a gain in turnovers and in disruption of the possession. But if you aren't really good at on-ball defense and handling high screens, that gain is almost certainly going to be offset (and then some) by a loss in ability to succeed in help defense.

pfrduke
01-14-2015, 04:17 PM
The last two games showed that our opponents were going to hit threes regardless of how far out we defended them. Might as well take away the easier shots like drives/dunks and live with giving up the 3.

This is, I think, the one philosophical thing about defense that Coach K would find most difficult to adopt. The single most consistent thing about our defense over the course of many years is that we don't give up a lot of three point attempts.* With one exception (2013, and even then we were 26th), Duke has never finished lower than 14th in the country in terms of allowing the lowest percentage of 3s against as a percentage of opponent attempts (in other words, our opponents shoot fewer 3s relative to their total number of field goal attempts than almost anyone else's opponents). This year we're 21st, and almost certainly were higher than that before last night (when Miami took 20 of 56 attempts from 3).

I think K has a view of defense where he wants to make opponents beat us 2 points at a time, not 3 at a time. Now, I certainly don't think that view involves conceding easy layups to stop 3s, but I do think it involves conceding at least some layup attempts to stop 3 point attempts (the overall goal, I suspect, is to force teams to shoot 2s other than layups/dunks, which are, broadly speaking, terrible shots). And it shows - we typically have only an average 2-point defense - outside of some exceptionally good years when we had talented post defenders ('04, '05, '10, '11), Duke typically sits around 100th in the country in 2pt shooting percentage. But we've been forcing teams to take 2s where they shoot an aggregate of, say, 46% instead of 3s at, say, 33% - a great tradeoff.

Last year and this year, though, the quality of 2 point shot that we've been forcing teams to take is not as good (from a defensive perspective) as it has been in years past. Last year's failings were well documented, but we were 236th in the country in 2pt defense (50.3% shooting); this year we're not all that much better (171st, 47.4%).

I'm not sure whether it's personnel, a shift in offensive tactics nationwide, the effect of rule changes/3pt line extension, or some combination of all of those things, but it's simply gotten harder for us to do what I suspect Coach K most wants to do - don't let teams shoot 3s - without yielding baskets that are too easy in exchange. I'm sure there will be some tinkering, but I expect the tinkering to occur within the framework of the overall philosophy, and not be a change to that overall philosophy.

*the second-most consistent thing about our defense over time is that we don't let opponents get a lot of assists. These two things are related - the most frequently assisted shot in basketball is a 3-point make (typically somewhere on the order of 70% of made threes come off of the pass), so the fewer 3s we let opponents shoot, the lower the percentage of their assisted buckets will be.

FerryFor50
01-14-2015, 04:21 PM
This is, I think, the one philosophical thing about defense that Coach K would find most difficult to adopt. The single most consistent thing about our defense over the course of many years is that we don't give up a lot of three point attempts.* With one exception (2013, and even then we were 26th), Duke has never finished lower than 14th in the country in terms of allowing the lowest percentage of 3s against as a percentage of opponent attempts (in other words, our opponents shoot fewer 3s relative to their total number of field goal attempts than almost anyone else's opponents). This year we're 21st, and almost certainly were higher than that before last night (when Miami took 20 of 56 attempts from 3).

I think K has a view of defense where he wants to make opponents beat us 2 points at a time, not 3 at a time. Now, I certainly don't think that view involves conceding easy layups to stop 3s, but I do think it involves conceding at least some layup attempts to stop 3 point attempts (the overall goal, I suspect, is to force teams to shoot 2s other than layups/dunks, which are, broadly speaking, terrible shots). And it shows - we typically have only an average 2-point defense - outside of some exceptionally good years when we had talented post defenders ('04, '05, '10, '11), Duke typically sits around 100th in the country in 2pt shooting percentage. But we've been forcing teams to take 2s where they shoot an aggregate of, say, 46% instead of 3s at, say, 33% - a great tradeoff.

Last year and this year, though, the quality of 2 point shot that we've been forcing teams to take is not as good (from a defensive perspective) as it has been in years past. Last year's failings were well documented, but we were 236th in the country in 2pt defense (50.3% shooting); this year we're not all that much better (171st, 47.4%).

I'm not sure whether it's personnel, a shift in offensive tactics nationwide, the effect of rule changes/3pt line extension, or some combination of all of those things, but it's simply gotten harder for us to do what I suspect Coach K most wants to do - don't let teams shoot 3s - without yielding baskets that are too easy in exchange. I'm sure there will be some tinkering, but I expect the tinkering to occur within the framework of the overall philosophy, and not be a change to that overall philosophy.

*the second-most consistent thing about our defense over time is that we don't let opponents get a lot of assists. These two things are related - the most frequently assisted shot in basketball is a 3-point make (typically somewhere on the order of 70% of made threes come off of the pass), so the fewer 3s we let opponents shoot, the lower the percentage of their assisted buckets will be.

That philosophy certainly worked when Duke could camp under the basket and draw charges left and right. But with the rule changes/enforcement, that tool has been taken away for the most part. Now, to defend the rim you either need to commit to defending the rim by limiting drives and letting teams take more long jumpers or have a shot blocker. Duke's option right now with the current personnel is to limit drives.

Totally agree with the points you made, though. I think this is one area that K has taken more time to adjust to than most. Hopefully he comes around.

pfrduke
01-14-2015, 04:21 PM
I think the last 2 games were catch-22 games. Our opponents were hitting the 3 at a ridiculous, unbelievable rate. Duke extended the defense and overplayed the 3s and gave up more drives and easy 2s.

If you think about it, isn't that how a lot of teams defend Duke for the most part? Works pretty well sometimes. I'd take my chances with a Miami team that is shooting 37% from 3 for the year (73rd in the nation) or a NCSU team that shoots 38% from 3 (50th in the country). But a team like UVA that shoots 40% (16th)? Then you perhaps extend the defense.

In an individual game, the difference between a team that shoots 37% from 3 and one that shoots 40% from 3 is minuscule. If you give them each 20 attempts, the 40% team you expect to hit 8; the 37% team you expect to hit 7 or 8 - it yields almost exactly the same result. Not sure why you extend on one and let the other bomb away.

dukelifer
01-14-2015, 04:21 PM
I don't have the time or inclination to read through the whole thread. But I'll restate some things I've already said (going back to last year) and that others have probably said more eloquently then I have.

1. Our defensive philosophy, as currently constituted, lends itself to getting absolutely abused by more athletic run-and-jump players. Either start recruiting these types of players or change/revise the defensive philosophy.

2. Stop blaming the players. This is a "system" problem that has existed for several years. Just asking for "more effort" is not going to fix things.

3. Stop calling for replacing Okafor with Plumlee. That's utterly ridiculous.

This is on the coaching staff. Either evolve the system or resign ourselves to an unending string of being overrated and early tournament defeats. It's time to admit that the basketball landscape has changed.

We'll probably continue to beat "plodding" teams and get embarrassed by athletic teams. Aside from Winslow, who do we have that's a first-class fast-twitch athlete? Maybe Sheed. Maybe.

Also, any lineup that contains Plumlee, Amile and Matt Jones is offensive suicide.

Stop criticizing Winslow's effort. The guy is a warrior.

And lastly, stop calling these negative comments an overreaction. They are an honest observation, shared by many.

I agree this is a system problem- perhaps a bit of stubbornness from a Coach not to evolve the D- a bit like old professors teaching from the same set of notes. Sometimes you have to make deep changes or adapt to the guys you have. But it has not been done. K does not have the same motivation as in the past. This team is limited in what they can do defensively - although it seemed for a while that they had figured something out. I agree that Winslow is giving good effort. He is not an NBA all star- like all Freshman he is going to be up and down. This team has very few lineup options. The problem is that every team facing Duke uses it as a way to showcase. Mediocre teams often take nights off against lesser opponents. Duke always gets their focused effort. Duke teams thus cannot take nights off and so it has always been- we at least for 25 years. So it is not easy being a Duke player- the pressure and expectations are large and can be wearing. It is so much easier being the underdog with low expectations. Miami had nothing to lose and everything to gain in this game. Duke was just the opposite. When the game pressure was on- the boys wilted. Duke got good open shots- but missed them and a boat load of free throws. Shore up the free throw shooting and do a bit more of drive and kick- and Duke will not let games get away. Okafor, Jefferson and Winslow are going to get fouled. They cannot miss throws. That is a major momentum killer- and there is no excuse for that.

elvis14
01-14-2015, 04:22 PM
I don't have the time or inclination to read through the whole thread. But I'll restate some things I've already said (going back to last year) and that others have probably said more eloquently then I have.

1. Our defensive philosophy, as currently constituted, lends itself to getting absolutely abused by more athletic run-and-jump players. Either start recruiting these types of players or change/revise the defensive philosophy.

2. Stop blaming the players. This is a "system" problem that has existed for several years. Just asking for "more effort" is not going to fix things.

3. Stop calling for replacing Okafor with Plumlee. That's utterly ridiculous.

This is on the coaching staff. Either evolve the system or resign ourselves to an unending string of being overrated and early tournament defeats. It's time to admit that the basketball landscape has changed.

We'll probably continue to beat "plodding" teams and get embarrassed by athletic teams. Aside from Winslow, who do we have that's a first-class fast-twitch athlete? Maybe Sheed. Maybe.

Also, any lineup that contains Plumlee, Amile and Matt Jones is offensive suicide.

Stop criticizing Winslow's effort. The guy is a warrior.

And lastly, stop calling these negative comments an overreaction. They are an honest observation, shared by many.

That's a good post, slower. I will say one thing about point #3 above. I don't think anyone thinks that we should replace Okafor with MP3. I think that MP3 should get a few more minutes. The main reason for this is that it'll give Okafor more rest and enable him to be more effective when he's on the court. A secondary reason is that MP3 is pretty good on the defensive end of the floor and sometimes we need that more than we need offense. It's not like I think Okafor should get 10 fewer minutes (that would be ridiculous) but a few more minutes for MP3 would be a good thing IMHO.

CDu
01-14-2015, 04:29 PM
I think the last 2 games were catch-22 games. Our opponents were hitting the 3 at a ridiculous, unbelievable rate. Duke extended the defense and overplayed the 3s and gave up more drives and easy 2s.

If you think about it, isn't that how a lot of teams defend Duke for the most part? Works pretty well sometimes. I'd take my chances with a Miami team that is shooting 37% from 3 for the year (73rd in the nation) or a NCSU team that shoots 38% from 3 (50th in the country). But a team like UVA that shoots 40% (16th)? Then you perhaps extend the defense.

Great point that it depends on the opponent. I think if this a bit like I'd think of man-to-man vs zone. Against teams with great ballhandlers/athletes but mediocre perimeter shooting, a zone is often more effective than man-to-man. Similarly, a packed man-to-man will likely be more effective than an extended man-to-man.

Against teams without great athletes/ballhandlers but who shoot really well? Then I agree: zone sucks, and packed man-to-man is less optimal.

Prior to the last couple of games, our opponents have tended to not have the ballhandling or athleticism to beat us. Wisconsin had great shooters, but only one guard was remotely capable of creating off the dribble (and he torched us). And even that guy wasn't a great athlete. Similar story with Stanford (it also helped that Stanford couldn't make a shot to save their lives against us that night). Same thing with MSU (they lacked great "break-you-down" guard play) only MSU also doesn't shoot well. UConn and BC had really only one guy (UConn's Boatright, BC's Hanlan) who could do damage off the dribble, so they were just too lacking in weapons. And the other opponents in 2014 were just too lacking in talent to really threaten (though even in the Toledo and Army game we had trouble defensively against overmatched foes).

So basically, despite playing a couple of pretty good teams in the pre-conference season, we have actually avoided facing teams that were well-designed to exploit our weaknesses. It hasn't been until we faced State and Miami that we faced a team with multiple play-making guards who can also shoot the 3 at a high percentage. State and Miami certainly played at their best in those two games, but that's immaterial; the point is not how successful they were, but why they were successful. Even a close loss with a reasonable 3pt % would have illustrated the same problems.

Of the remaining games on our schedule, Louisville absolutely fits the mold of a team that we should not pressure. They have a pair of fabulous playmaking/scoring guards who are very confident on the dribble along with a wealth of athletes, and they aren't a world-beating 3pt shooting team. So if we apply the same aggressive perimeter defense, there is a very real chance that we get to add another loss to the resume.

Notre Dame and Virginia are fantastic 3pt shooting teams, so in some ways it may be better to extend pressure on them. Though Notre Dame does have a pair of terrific guards in Grant and Jackson, so it is possible that the strategy could backfire. UVa has good guards, but they are mostly jumpshooters rather than drivers, so we could probably play extended against them. UNC has just one guy who can shoot, so I'd play some sort of hybrid of extended defense on Paige and more sagging on everyone else.