Karl Hess-- Aaaaaaaah See YA!

[alteran]

Is it wrong that I picture Karl Hess holding his fingers in two V's up in the air, boarding a helicopter, and grumbling that we "won't have Karl Hess to kick around any more"?

https://twitter.com/DavidGlennShow/status/553553151861981185

[ScreechTDX1847]

This made my day.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

4628

Good riddance

[ChillinDuke]

Oh.

My.

God.

This is the best thing.

Maybe ever.

Yessssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss!!!

- Chillin

[OldPhiKap]

Does he do NCAA Tourney games? We may not have seen the last of him. But this is very good news for everyone in the league.

[Tom B.]

Does he do NCAA Tourney games? We may not have seen the last of him. But this is very good news for everyone in the league.

Yes. In fact, he's worked a half-dozen or so Final Fours.

Like many officials, Hess works games for other conferences beyond the ACC, and I presume he'll keep doing that. I don't know how the process for selecting officials for the NCAA Tournament works, so I don't know if the ACC cutting ties with him will affect his selection for NCAA Tournament games.

[FerryFor50]

One sad note...

Now UNC, Duke and State fans have NOTHING they can all agree on.

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

Question is if he refs in a tournament game with an ACC team in it, will he hold a grudge and call a biased game against the ACC squad. Lets hope its UNC and not us who draws him if anyone does.

[OldPhiKap]

Question is if he refs in a tournament game with an ACC team in it, will he hold a grudge and call a biased game against the ACC squad.

History suggests that "grudge" is his middle name.

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

History suggests that "grudge" is his middle name.

I just got one of those awful feelings in my gut... Now I'm going to torture you all with the thought that just went through my head. Duke Vs Maryland with a trip to the Final Four on the line, and Karl Hess is holding a whistle!!!!!! The thought of it makes me cringe.

[ChillinDuke]

Question is if he refs in a tournament game with an ACC team in it, will he hold a grudge and call a biased game against the ACC squad. Lets hope its UNC and not us who draws him if anyone does.

Can the ACC ask the NCAA not use him if one of their teams is in the game? Conflict of interest?

Not sure if it's possible to do such a thing, but we'd certainly prefer it.

- Chillin

[Dukehky]

I just got one of those awful feelings in my gut... Now I'm going to torture you all with the thought that just went through my head. Duke Vs Maryland with a trip to the Final Four on the line, and Karl Hess is holding a whistle!!!!!! The thought of it makes me cringe.

I would be willing to bet that he will not ref any game that has an ACC team from here on out. The NCAA is actually pretty strict with the teams certain refs can officiate. Guys aren't allowed to ref games for any team that was in the same conference as the school they attended is one of the rules I'm aware of, and I am certain there are more.

I think that King Karl will not referee a game for any ACC team for the rest of his career, nor do I see him officiating too many more games period.

[OldPhiKap]

One sad note...

Now UNC, Duke and State fans have NOTHING they can all agree on.

How about that Wake is all of our second-favorite ACC school in NC?

[allenmurray]

nor do I see him officiating too many more games period.

Correct. If his racial slur was verified, and that is the reason the ACC parted ways with him, who will hire him now? the, "We're okay with racism" conference.

[devildeac]

How about that Wake is all of our second-favorite ACC school in NC?

That was my vote in our recent poll. Plus, whatever school was playing unc (in any sport), too.

[BD80]

One sad note...

Now UNC, Duke and State fans have NOTHING they can all agree on.

They agree that they don't miss ... um ... that school that left the conference a little while ago ... name's slipping my mind already

[burnspbesq]

Not to be all Debbie Downer and stuff, but notwithstanding our grievances against him, Hess was considered one of the best officials in college basketball; he didn't get all of those Final Four assignments by accident.

There is every reason to think that whoever gets the ACC assignments that would otherwise have gone to Hess, that person will not be as good as Hess, or the ACC would be using him already. In other words the SUCK factor of ACC officials is about to increase, not decrease.

Just sayin.'

[oldnavy]

I would hate to think that this offense "ALONE" would cause him or anyone to lose a job.... sensitivity training and an apology should suffice.

But as we all know this is NOT King Karl's only bad call....

I believe this was a "last straw" type of offense... plus he seemed to be getting worse as he got older... I still can't believe tossed Gugs and Corchiani at NCSU.

I for one will not miss him. Good riddance!

[OldPhiKap]

They agree that they don't miss ... um ... that school that left the conference a little while ago ... name's slipping my mind already

Hate to break it to you, but South Carolina has been gone a LONG time.

[Tripping William]

Not that I don't trust David Glenn's Twitter account, but Dan Collins from the Winston-Salem Journal is reporting the story as well.

http://www.journalnow.com/sports/wfu/basketball/acc-cuts-ties-with-referee-karl-hess/article_edf845a8-9825-11e4-a5f5-b31e6c4ac022.html

Quote from Hess:

“It’s a sad day and it’s devastating,’’ Hess told ESPN Friday morning. “But I’m responsible. . . . I wasn’t trying to deliberately hurt anyone. That’s not my character. I goof around a lot, and there was no intent to hurt anyone.’’

[Henderson]

Any specific info about why? Lack of confidence generally among the fans? Confirmation of the story that began the thread? General sense by authorities that he was bad at his job? Became of an issue that that was distracting to his job without any finding of fault?

[Tripping William]

Confirmation of the story that began the thread?

I infer from the substance of Hess's statements to ESPN, quoted in the Dan Collins piece, that it was this. But that's just my own inference.

[jv001]

Not that I don't trust David Glenn's Twitter account, but Dan Collins from the Winston-Salem Journal is reporting the story as well.

http://www.journalnow.com/sports/wfu/basketball/acc-cuts-ties-with-referee-karl-hess/article_edf845a8-9825-11e4-a5f5-b31e6c4ac022.html

Quote from Hess:

“It’s a sad day and it’s devastating,’’ Hess told ESPN Friday morning. “But I’m responsible. . . . I wasn’t trying to deliberately hurt anyone. That’s not my character. I goof around a lot, and there was no intent to hurt anyone.’’

Well there you go(Fargo), he must have made the comment. At one time Karl was a pretty good ref, but over time it seemed that he thought he was bigger than the game itself. That's the way I remember Dick Paparo(sp?). GoDuke!

[ojaidave]

I feel kind of bad for Karl. While folks can question his officiating, I'm sure he worked really hard to get to where he is today and now, after an off-hand flippant remark, he's done for.

We are becoming a supremely unforgiving society, unless of course, one's failings can be used for our entertainment.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I feel kind of bad for Karl. While folks can question his officiating, I'm sure he worked really hard to get to where he is today and now, after an off-hand flippant remark, he's done for.

We are becoming a supremely unforgiving society, unless of course, one's failings can be used for our entertainment.

100% agree with your bolded comments. Do not agree that is was an "off-hand flippant remark". It was incredibly racist and xenophobic. Hess deserved to be punished for that. Plus, it's not like this is Hess's first offense. He's been in trouble multiple times and this was merely the straw that broke the camel's back.

[ojaidave]

100% agree with your bolded comments. Do not agree that is was an "off-hand flippant remark". It was incredibly racist and xenophobic. Hess deserved to be punished for that. Plus, it's not like this is Hess's first offense. He's been in trouble multiple times and this was merely the straw that broke the camel's back.

Perhaps I don't know the full context, but I'm not sure how saying that you'd sit down and watch someone's "Egyptian A%%" ref a game is either incredibly racist or xenophobic. I guess I didn't realize being called Egyptian is a racial slur. What even does it mean?

Look, Karl brought this on himself. He should not have been speaking to the fans in any manner, and he certainly should not have used any kind of qualifier (race, religion, nationality, ability) in his not-so witty retort. From my 3rd hand perspective, it seems that while someone was finally able to bring down Karl, it took a bit of a stretch to do it.

[OldPhiKap]

Perhaps I don't know the full context, but I'm not sure how saying that you'd sit down and watch someone's "Egyptian A%%" ref a game is either incredibly racist or xenophobic. I guess I didn't realize being called Egyptian is a racial slur. What even does it mean?



Well, it probably didn't help that the guy is of Indian descent IIRC, not Egyptian. But if you call someone out by a nationality or race, well -- (1) don't complain when you get labeled; and (2) at least get it right.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Well, it probably didn't help that the guy is of Indian descent IIRC, not Egyptian. But if you call someone out by a nationality or race, well -- (1) don't complain when you get labeled; and (2) at least get it right.

My understanding is that the gentleman who was subjected to the comment was from Jersey.

Hess painted with a strangely specific brush, and missed by about 10,000 miles.

[ojaidave]

Well, it probably didn't help that the guy is of Indian descent IIRC, not Egyptian. But if you call someone out by a nationality or race, well -- (1) don't complain when you get labeled; and (2) at least get it right.

I agree with this.

[johnb]

Well, it probably didn't help that the guy is of Indian descent IIRC, not Egyptian. But if you call someone out by a nationality or race, well -- (1) don't complain when you get labeled; and (2) at least get it right.

I've never before quoted directly from the Comments section of an article, but this is from the front-page referenced article in the ACC Area Sprts Journal:


Jeff A. Taylor • 3 hours ago
Once again the ACC makes a money decision. Make no mistake, Hess has been a bully toward fans for years, regularly trying to show them up. Who knows how many times he's made similar comments to someone not as powerful as Shah. In fact, Shah may have been the single worst person to get a full broadside of Hess. Starting with a single motel in Winston-Salem, Shah's Noble Investment Group is a $2b. operation -- and just last month he was named chairman of La Quinta. In short, he is a massive presence in the hospitality industry which the ACC must interface with everyday. With all due respect to Wake, it is that standing and not his affiliation with the university that set off alarm bells in Greensboro. The ACC had no problem employing a horrible person for years, but once it looked like it might cost them money and prestige, the conference found a moral compass. Not unlike the NBA and Donald Sterling. But with much less SportsCenter time.

https://www.accsports.com/articles/acc-ends-relationship-with-hess

[jv001]

I've never before quoted directly from the Comments section of an article, but this is from the front-page referenced article in the ACC Area Sprts Journal:


Jeff A. Taylor • 3 hours ago
Once again the ACC makes a money decision. Make no mistake, Hess has been a bully toward fans for years, regularly trying to show them up. Who knows how many times he's made similar comments to someone not as powerful as Shah. In fact, Shah may have been the single worst person to get a full broadside of Hess. Starting with a single motel in Winston-Salem, Shah's Noble Investment Group is a $2b. operation -- and just last month he was named chairman of La Quinta. In short, he is a massive presence in the hospitality industry which the ACC must interface with everyday. With all due respect to Wake, it is that standing and not his affiliation with the university that set off alarm bells in Greensboro. The ACC had no problem employing a horrible person for years, but once it looked like it might cost them money and prestige, the conference found a moral compass. Not unlike the NBA and Donald Sterling. But with much less SportsCenter time.
https://www.accsports.com/articles/acc-ends-relationship-with-hess

Only one thing would have saved his job and that would be if he was a UNcheater graduate. Then the ACC would have probably taken the stance "no harm, no foul". GoDuke!

[Reilly]

Sarah Koenig is going to make the second season of Serial out of this: did Karl reference an Egyptian behind? What if he did? What if he didn't? What if he did, and he was just joking? What if he didn't, but he wasn't joking when he didn't? Has anyone ever confused Indians and Egyptians before? Did it matter? Should it matter? Alaa Abdelnaby was from New Jersey -- does that matter? Is it OK to make jokes about Lenny Wirtz/referee dark ink tatoos on behinds, but not for referees/Karl Hess to make jokes about behinds with no tatoos but darkness? Have Corch and Googs ever been to NJ? To Egypt? Does that matter? Should it matter?

[Tripping William]

I've never before quoted directly from the Comments section of an article, but this is from the front-page referenced article in the ACC Area Sprts Journal:


Jeff A. Taylor • 3 hours ago
Once again the ACC makes a money decision. Make no mistake, Hess has been a bully toward fans for years, regularly trying to show them up. Who knows how many times he's made similar comments to someone not as powerful as Shah. In fact, Shah may have been the single worst person to get a full broadside of Hess. Starting with a single motel in Winston-Salem, Shah's Noble Investment Group is a $2b. operation -- and just last month he was named chairman of La Quinta. In short, he is a massive presence in the hospitality industry which the ACC must interface with everyday. With all due respect to Wake, it is that standing and not his affiliation with the university that set off alarm bells in Greensboro. The ACC had no problem employing a horrible person for years, but once it looked like it might cost them money and prestige, the conference found a moral compass. Not unlike the NBA and Donald Sterling. But with much less SportsCenter time.

https://www.accsports.com/articles/acc-ends-relationship-with-hess

So, on top of it all, Hess "[effed] with the wrong Marine."

[Henderson]

Well, it probably didn't help that the guy is of Indian descent IIRC, not Egyptian. But if you call someone out by a nationality or race, well -- (1) don't complain when you get labeled; and (2) at least get it right.

Is it established that this incident occurred? Not saying it didn't. Just looking for confirmation. One guy's tweet isn't enough, but if it's been confirmed, that'd change things.

[Clay Feet POF]

Not to be all Debbie Downer and stuff, but notwithstanding our grievances against him, Hess was considered one of the best officials in college basketball; he didn't get all of those Final Four assignments by accident.

There is every reason to think that whoever gets the ACC assignments that would otherwise have gone to Hess, that person will not be as good as Hess, or the ACC would be using him already. In other words the SUCK factor of ACC officials is about to increase, not decrease.

Just sayin.'


Will be interesting to follow his replacement, hope this is not one of those " Good News...Bad News" things.

[devildeac]

100% agree with your bolded comments. Do not agree that is was an "off-hand flippant remark". It was incredibly racist and xenophobic. Hess deserved to be punished for that. Plus, it's not like this is Hess's first offense. He's been in trouble multiple times and this was merely the straw that broke the camel's back.


I see what you did there with the ungulate reference;).

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

I've always followed the rule that if I recognize the ref and I know his name off the top of my head then he is an awful ref. Everyone knows Karl Hess for his antics, and his controversial calls and decisions. I celebrate this and hope I never learn his repplacements name.

[Duvall]

Is it established that this incident occurred? Not saying it didn't. Just looking for confirmation. One guy's tweet isn't enough, but if it's been confirmed, that'd change things.

Hess admitted responsibility, which should present sufficient White Man Confirmation to meet DBR's epistemological standards.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Perhaps I don't know the full context, but I'm not sure how saying that you'd sit down and watch someone's "Egyptian A%%" ref a game is either incredibly racist or xenophobic. I guess I didn't realize being called Egyptian is a racial slur. What even does it mean?

I believe it to be racist because Shah is not Egyptian, he's an American who comes from Indian descent. I believe that calling any dark-skinned individual by a random country BECAUSE he is dark-skinned is way off base.

It's also xenophobic because this is the United States, arguably one of the most culturally diverse countries in the world. Apparently, dark-skinned individuals cannot be American; they must be "Egyptian," "Nigerian," or "Pakistani".

[BD80]

... Is it OK to make jokes about Lenny Wirtz/referee dark ink tatoos on behinds, but not for referees/Karl Hess to make jokes about behinds with no tatoos but darkness? ...

Not a whit of difference

A difference of wit

[superdave]

I've never before quoted directly from the Comments section of an article, but this is from the front-page referenced article in the ACC Area Sprts Journal:


Jeff A. Taylor • 3 hours ago
Once again the ACC makes a money decision. Make no mistake, Hess has been a bully toward fans for years, regularly trying to show them up. Who knows how many times he's made similar comments to someone not as powerful as Shah. In fact, Shah may have been the single worst person to get a full broadside of Hess. Starting with a single motel in Winston-Salem, Shah's Noble Investment Group is a $2b. operation -- and just last month he was named chairman of La Quinta. In short, he is a massive presence in the hospitality industry which the ACC must interface with everyday. With all due respect to Wake, it is that standing and not his affiliation with the university that set off alarm bells in Greensboro. The ACC had no problem employing a horrible person for years, but once it looked like it might cost them money and prestige, the conference found a moral compass. Not unlike the NBA and Donald Sterling. But with much less SportsCenter time.

https://www.accsports.com/articles/acc-ends-relationship-with-hess

Is kicking Corchiani and Gugliotta out of a game and bullying fans a fireable offense?

I think not. But piling another really big straw on that camel's back gets Karl an early retirement, and deservedly so.

[Chicago 1995]

Not to be all Debbie Downer and stuff, but notwithstanding our grievances against him, Hess was considered one of the best officials in college basketball; he didn't get all of those Final Four assignments by accident.

There is every reason to think that whoever gets the ACC assignments that would otherwise have gone to Hess, that person will not be as good as Hess, or the ACC would be using him already. In other words the SUCK factor of ACC officials is about to increase, not decrease.

Just sayin.'

I get what you are saying Burnsy, but just because you get a NCAA tourney or Final Four assignment doesn't mean you are actually good, or even actually better than other officials. For example, the crew that butchered the Iowa State - Kansas game in 2013 all got NCAA assignments despite public rebukes from the conference. There's no way on earth that the refs from the 2004 Final Four game with UConn were 3 of the nine best in college basketball. TV Teddy Valentine kept getting plum assignments because of his name and relationship with schools long after Teddy forgot that no one tuned in to see him rather than the basketball game. I'm sure the guys who blew the OOB call at the end of the Stanford UCLA game last night will still get tourney assignments.

It's certainly possible that Hess will be replaced by someone as bad as he was, but without the baggage and without the ego. That would make them an improvement. What's disappointing is that Hess is getting canned for cause, but not being bad at his job. Some public accountability for the stripes would be a glorious thing. These guys, by and large and across sports (or at least football and basketball) are pretty bad at their jobs. And no one in their hierarchy seems to care.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I believe it to be racist because Shah is not Egyptian, he's an American who comes from Indian descent. I believe that calling any dark-skinned individual by a random country BECAUSE he is dark-skinned is way off base.

It's also xenophobic because this is the United States, arguably one of the most culturally diverse countries in the world. Apparently, dark-skinned individuals cannot be American; they must be "Egyptian," "Nigerian," or "Pakistani".

Thank you for articulating this better than I did above.

Sort of like Aziz Ansari (from Parks and Rec and also very funny standup) who has a bit where he says growing up everyone always asked him where he was from and they never understood when he would say "South Carolina, why?"

[ricks68]

I see what you did there with the ungulate reference;).

I also caught that. If it was intentional, then sporks should be in order.

ricks

[Reilly]

... Shah's Noble Investment Group is a $2b. operation -- and just last month he was named chairman of La Quinta. ... [/url]

$2 billion?!? I heard Danny Ferry summarize their annual report and it sounded like they were just selling counterfeit goods out of the back of the hotels ....

[weezie]

I feel kind of bad for Karl. While folks can question his officiating, I'm sure he worked really hard to get to where he is today and now, after an off-hand flippant remark, he's done for.


I'm somewhat agreeing with this. Now we'll be stuck with Jamie and Bryan who will most likely be in a very bad mood for the foreseeable future. As opposed to their usual saw-off attitudes.

Better the evil that you know....

[ChillinDuke]

Not to be all Debbie Downer and stuff, but notwithstanding our grievances against him, Hess was considered one of the best officials in college basketball; he didn't get all of those Final Four assignments by accident.

There is every reason to think that whoever gets the ACC assignments that would otherwise have gone to Hess, that person will not be as good as Hess, or the ACC would be using him already. In other words the SUCK factor of ACC officials is about to increase, not decrease.

Just sayin.'

Bartender...

I'll have what he's having...

- Chillin

[jacone21]

Will be interesting to follow his replacement, hope this is not one of those " Good News...Bad News" things.

Back in November, I watched Teddy Valentine work a Sun Belt game down here in Georgia. He looked ready for some ACC action!

[Tripping William]

I'm somewhat agreeing with this. Now we'll be stuck with Jamie and Bryan who will most likely be in a very bad mood for the foreseeable future. As opposed to their usual saw-off attitudes.

Better the evil that you know....

Prepare for Part Deux:

4630

[devildeac]

Is kicking Corchiani and Gugliotta out of a game and bullying fans a fireable offense?

I think not. But piling another really big straw on that camel's back gets Karl an early retirement, and deservedly so.

There we go with another ungulate reference;):rolleyes:.

[DukieInKansas]

Apparently, he has withdrawn from working AAC games. It remains to be seen what will happen with SEC, Big 12, and Big East games.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/12141973/referee-karl-hess-no-longer-work-acc-games

[Ultrarunner]

One sad note...

Now UNC, Duke and State fans have NOTHING they can all agree on.

Jamie Luckie

[devilish]

I believe it to be racist because Shah is not Egyptian, he's an American who comes from Indian descent. I believe that calling any dark-skinned individual by a random country BECAUSE he is dark-skinned is way off base.

It's also xenophobic because this is the United States, arguably one of the most culturally diverse countries in the world. Apparently, dark-skinned individuals cannot be American; they must be "Egyptian," "Nigerian," or "Pakistani".

Unless you are an African American, then it is OK. Side note, CNN reporter today referred to the dark skinned hostage taker in Paris as an African American. Very confusing.

[kmspeaks]

I get what you are saying Burnsy, but just because you get a NCAA tourney or Final Four assignment doesn't mean you are actually good, or even actually better than other officials. For example, the crew that butchered the Iowa State - Kansas game in 2013 all got NCAA assignments despite public rebukes from the conference. There's no way on earth that the refs from the 2004 Final Four game with UConn were 3 of the nine best in college basketball. TV Teddy Valentine kept getting plum assignments because of his name and relationship with schools long after Teddy forgot that no one tuned in to see him rather than the basketball game. I'm sure the guys who blew the OOB call at the end of the Stanford UCLA game last night will still get tourney assignments.

It's certainly possible that Hess will be replaced by someone as bad as he was, but without the baggage and without the ego. That would make them an improvement. What's disappointing is that Hess is getting canned for cause, but not being bad at his job. Some public accountability for the stripes would be a glorious thing. These guys, by and large and across sports (or at least football and basketball) are pretty bad at their jobs. And no one in their hierarchy seems to care.

Allow me to second this with some anecdotal evidence from College Baseball. I realize it's a different sport but I would think the selection process for tournament officials would at least have some similarities.

A friend of mine has umpired college baseball for over 20 years. About 12 years ago he got his first NCAA Regional Assignment. He worked a Regional in each of the next few seasons and then was inexplicably dropped from the post-season roster. At that time umpires were rated during the year and those ratings and evaluations were given to the umpires at the end of the season. My friend's evaluation and ratings were just as good as previous years and better than several umpires who had been given post-season assignments that year. His assigner asked members of the committee why he was left off despite high rankings and was basically told "we're not going to answer that question." After that year ratings were no longer made available to the umpires, they're still evaluated they just don't get to see them so there's no accountability to the process.

[oldnavy]

Karl has rabbit ears and it seems he has a need to be in control of EVERYTHING going on around him both on and off the court that he can't suppress.

I'll give him the on the court stuff, but the stuff off the court should not be acknowledged. If fact, his acknowledging comments by fans is exactly what the fans want him to do.

You'd figure he would know this by now.

[uh_no]

Karl has rabbit ears and it seems he has a need to be in control of EVERYTHING going on around him both on and off the court that he can't suppress.

I'll give him the on the court stuff, but the stuff off the court should not be acknowledged. If fact, his acknowledging comments by fans is exactly what the fans want him to do.

You'd figure he would know this by now.

there are some things that a referee can and must control off the court

- Illegal noisemaking during the game, such as playing instruments...which could result in a technical foul for the home team. That said, such should e dealt with by bringing the attention to the coach or stadium security
- Any situation which could become a danger to a person on the court....such as if the crazies, while sticking their hands out during an inbound, were preventing a player from inbounding the ball, or throwing anything towards the court, or even perhaps flash photography

Not that any of hess' antics rose to either of those situations...

[TruBlu]

So, on top of it all, Hess "[effed] with the wrong Marine."

Is there a "right" marine to [eff] with? I haven't met one.

Good riddance Karl. Don't wanna See Ya no mo.

[oldnavy]

there are some things that a referee can and must control off the court

- Illegal noisemaking during the game, such as playing instruments...which could result in a technical foul for the home team. That said, such should e dealt with by bringing the attention to the coach or stadium security
- Any situation which could become a danger to a person on the court....such as if the crazies, while sticking their hands out during an inbound, were preventing a player from inbounding the ball, or throwing anything towards the court, or even perhaps flash photography

Not that any of hess' antics rose to either of those situations...

Of course, I guess I should have said anything that affected "on the court" play, such as the issues you raise. The refs have to control those issues.

But, mouthing off at an official by a non-participant including bench and staff (i.e., fans) is not something that needs to be controlled, it needs to be ignored. Karl had/has a hard time ignoring verbal barbs...

He must really feel the need to be "loved"... I for one really don't care what anyone outside my immediate family thinks about me, it is truly a GIFT!! ;)

[Owen Meany]

Hess admitted responsibility, which should present sufficient White Man Confirmation to meet DBR's epistemological standards.

I find this comment to be bizarre. Has anyone (other than you) even suggested that there is a racial aspect to whether this incident actually took place or not? How on earth are you even suggesting this?

FWIW, I was one of the posters who said it would be best to get confirmation that this event happened before everyone begins to joyously tear Hess apart. I also added that, given nature of the accusation it was likely that Hess did say something (meaning this was not an anonymous post by some kid, but a professional adult who identified himself). To be honest, I was surprised that anyone could take offense to the suggestion that people get the facts before condemning someone. This seems so uncontroversial that I read and reread your comments to make sure you weren't being facetious (mocking those who were rushing to judgement). Because I find this comment unbelievable:

"But why? Why are you subjecting a simple factual claim to this extra level of scrutiny when there has been literally no countervailing evidence offered?"

Because an accusation is not a fact (despite the fact that twitter is notoriously reliable). And suggesting that people wait for ONE person to confirm this in no way, shape or form constitutes an EXTRA level of scrutiny - it should be the absolute MINIMAL level of scrutiny required before we begin to judge someone and change their life forever. And to suggest that it is the accused's responsibility to prove they are innocent with "countervailing evidence" is ridiculous.


But Hey, Hess screwed up. He brought this on himself and had absolutely no business making the comment he made. It is unacceptable and now he will have to pay the price. Personally, I get no joy out of this (even though I don't care for the guy), so I'm not going to pile on the guy because I believe the ramifications will be very real, lasting and painful. But I apologize for suggesting that you delay your satisfaction of declaring him guilty until we knew that he was actually guilty.

The fact that Hess did do something inappropriate does not change my opinion that its best to get confirmation before ruining a person over the accusation of one person. If we accept as fact what one person says then:



Duke Lacrosse players gang raped a dancer

Coach K used George Hill's gruesome injury for a photo-op

Coach K cussed out a player's mother because he went pro.

Kyrie Irving sent inappropriate and threatening messages to a young girl while playing for Duke

The Duke students taunted a player over the recent death of a grandparent

A Duke player raped a young girl while in high school

etc, etc.



So excuse me for suggesting that we wait until the facts are in until we judge someone.

I ignored the suggestion earlier that it was somehow unreasonable to advise patience before attacking someone until the facts were known. But since you have, bizarrely, chosen to suggest a racial motive in this I felt compelled to respond.

[OldPhiKap]

I find this comment to be bizarre. Has anyone (other than you) even suggested that there is a racial aspect to whether this incident actually took place or not? How on earth are you even suggesting this?

FWIW, I was one of the posters who said it would be best to get confirmation that this event happened before everyone begins to joyously tear Hess apart. I also added that, given nature of the accusation it was likely that Hess did say something (meaning this was not an anonymous post by some kid, but a professional adult who identified himself). To be honest, I was surprised that anyone could take offense to the suggestion that people get the facts before condemning someone. This seems so uncontroversial that I read and reread your comments to make sure you weren't being facetious (mocking those who were rushing to judgement). Because I find this comment unbelievable:

"But why? Why are you subjecting a simple factual claim to this extra level of scrutiny when there has been literally no countervailing evidence offered?"

Because an accusation is not a fact (despite the fact that twitter is notoriously reliable). And suggesting that people wait for ONE person to confirm this in no way, shape or form constitutes an EXTRA level of scrutiny - it should be the absolute MINIMAL level of scrutiny required before we begin to judge someone and change their life forever. And to suggest that it is the accused's responsibility to prove they are innocent with "countervailing evidence" is ridiculous.


But Hey, Hess screwed up. He brought this on himself and had absolutely no business making the comment he made. It is unacceptable and now he will have to pay the price. Personally, I get no joy out of this (even though I don't care for the guy), so I'm not going to pile on the guy because I believe the ramifications will be very real, lasting and painful. But I apologize for suggesting that you delay your satisfaction of declaring him guilty until we knew that he was actually guilty.

The fact that Hess did do something inappropriate does not change my opinion that its best to get confirmation before ruining a person over the accusation of one person. If we accept as fact what one person says then:



Duke Lacrosse players gang raped a dancer

Coach K used George Hill's gruesome injury for a photo-op

Coach K cussed out a player's mother because he went pro.

Kyrie Irving sent inappropriate and threatening messages to a young girl while playing for Duke

The Duke students taunted a player over the recent death of a grandparent

A Duke player raped a young girl while in high school

etc, etc.



So excuse me for suggesting that we wait until the facts are in until we judge someone.

I ignored the suggestion earlier that it was somehow unreasonable to advise patience before attacking someone until the facts were known. But since you have, bizarrely, chosen to suggest a racial motive in this I felt compelled to respond.

Exactly exactly exactly. I would double Spork post that if I could.

Not sure what the hell "White Man Confirmation" is, I must have missed that class. But given that I too wanted more than a single tweet before impacting the guy's life and career, I guess it applies to folks like me?

Very confused.

[Duvall]

I find this comment to be bizarre. Has anyone (other than you) even suggested that there is a racial aspect to whether this incident actually took place or not? How on earth are you even suggesting this?

Well, I placed my fingers on the keyboard and started typing.

There's a certain...defensiveness around certain issues that's hardly unique to this forum - but is pretty prevalent on this forum - that is driven by an inability of some to ever view themselves as a victim rather than the accused. This leads to a reflexive antipathy that I find destructive. I felt like calling it out.


So excuse me for suggesting that we wait until the facts are in until we judge someone.

Who asked you to judge anyone? No one here had to find any facts or make any conclusions, but we insisted on a production of evidence as if we did.

[Clay Feet POF]

Back in November, I watched Teddy Valentine work a Sun Belt game down here in Georgia. He looked ready for some ACC action!

Yeah, he seems to like the Limelight too.

[DevilWearsPrada]

Yeah, he seems to like the Limelight too.

Ditto to your comment! The All About Days of Dr Karl Hess and ACC games are now in the Dark!!!

Let's All Sing "Happy Day" for Karl Hess' SwanSong!!!!

[Henderson]

Hess admitted responsibility, which should present sufficient White Man Confirmation to meet DBR's epistemological standards.

Ugh. Here's hoping that is some humorous literary reference rather than what it seems.

[Owen Meany]

Well, I placed my fingers on the keyboard and started typing.

There's a certain...defensiveness around certain issues that's hardly unique to this forum - but is pretty prevalent on this forum - that is driven by an inability of some to ever view themselves as a victim rather than the accused. This leads to a reflexive antipathy that I find destructive. I felt like calling it out.

Who asked you to judge anyone? No one here had to find any facts or make any conclusions, but we insisted on a production of evidence as if we did.

"There's a certain...defensiveness around certain issues"
Oh, the irony.

Also, I saw no defensiveness on either this or the prior thread. But, FYI - if you want to avoid defensiveness by posters you might want to avoid ascribing racist or racial intentions to their posts (particularly when there is no basis for it whatsoever).

"an inability of some to ever view themselves as a victim"
as opposed to the ability to always view oneself as a victim?

"leads to a reflexive antipathy that I find destructive"
Wow, pretty strong words. I can't find anything that was said about Mr. Shah that could possibly qualify as antipathy or destructive - because there wasn't.

"Who asked you to judge anyone? No one here had to find any facts or make any conclusions, but we insisted on a production of evidence as if we did."
Well, I'm pretty sure most (if not all) people would realize that I didn't mean in a court of law. "Judge" has more than one definition. I felt it was appropriate to know if Hess actually made the comment before forming an opinion or condemning him. You obviously disagree.

You can rationalize, make baseless accusations, etc., but the fact remains that all that was said was to wait for the facts before accepting the accusation as true.

[killerleft]

100% agree with your bolded comments. Do not agree that is was an "off-hand flippant remark". It was incredibly racist and xenophobic. Hess deserved to be punished for that. Plus, it's not like this is Hess's first offense. He's been in trouble multiple times and this was merely the straw that broke the camel's back.

Xenophobic? You sure do have a low threshold, even for the internet.