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View Full Version : Jahlil never fakes!



trinity92
01-09-2015, 03:59 AM
Has anyone else noticed this? This is an observation I've made over the last several games and not at all a reaction to his slightly off game against Wake (as noted in the post-game thread, a double-double is a nice problem to have!)

I get the feeling he was so dominant in HS that he never had to use fakes and could just power over or through his defender. Now in college he's had so much success so quickly that he's continued with the same game, but now there's enough footage of him out there that teams have had a chance to scout his tendencies. He's also about to face a steady stream of ACC caliber big men who are better equipped to handle Jahlil's size and quickness.

I think if he would work some shot/head takes into his repertoire even several times a game, it would throw enough hesitation into his defenders that they would have virtually no chance against him. It's been so glaring to me over the last three or four games, even though he's put up such gaudy numbers during that span, that I almost wonder if K, in his infinite omnipotence, is holding off teaching the fakes or asking Jahlil to wait to implement them until later in the season (or even the post season) to confound our opponents in the post more completely.

Such a special player-- we're privileged to watch him develop in a Duke uniform!

djp10
01-09-2015, 04:13 AM
while we're at it: Matt Jones needs to hit the plyometrics harder or put some flubber in his shoes. he's getting crushed on semi-open transition lay-ups; the other players look like Chief smacking it off the backboard.

Bob Green
01-09-2015, 05:03 AM
Jahlil Okafor has multiple low post offensive moves. Most young big men are limited to one go to move. I'm sure he can use a shot/head fake if needed. If not, it is pretty easy to learn.

OldPhiKap
01-09-2015, 07:16 AM
Jah never gets blocked, either.

Honey badger don't care.

jv001
01-09-2015, 08:07 AM
One of the things that I admire about Jah's offensive game is that he get's the shot off so quickly. Now I'm not talking about the times he takes the ball to the basket with the dribble. On those shots, there are times he should use a shot fake. But on the times he receives the ball in the low post, I love the way he get's the shot off so quickly. The defense doesn't have time to even contest his shot. Jah has a game that a lot of NBA centers don't have. You can tell that he's worked hard on his game and the kid has natural ability that one can only dream about. GoDuke!

FerryFor50
01-09-2015, 09:43 AM
That just means he's being true to himself. No pretense. :p

uh_no
01-09-2015, 09:45 AM
Marty doesn't foul.

Duke95
01-09-2015, 09:58 AM
Jah keeps it real.

wilko
01-09-2015, 10:00 AM
Jah never gets blocked, either.

Honey badger don't care.

Awesome!!

kAzE
01-09-2015, 10:11 AM
There probably are at least a few examples, but I don't remember seeing a situation in the post where a fake would have been more effective than what he did. He just does just a good job of waiting for his chance and making a quick decisive move to score. Of course, incorporating fakes and counters in to his post game will help at the next level, but I think at this level, he's still just so much stronger and quicker than the guys guarding him, it won't matter too much. Once he goes pro, send him to Hakeem camp, he'll be unstoppable.

alteran
01-09-2015, 10:13 AM
Jahlil Okafor has multiple low post offensive moves. Most young big men are limited to one go to move. I'm sure he can use a shot/head fake if needed. If not, it is pretty easy to learn.
Smarter basketball minds than mine please chime in, but I thought faking was something almost all big men going into college had to UN-learn.

Kind of like putting the ball on the floor. It's not that you should NEVER do it as a big man in college, it's that the times where you should are pretty limited. And if you do it outside those times, about 15 small guys are going to use the extra time to converge on you, and use the fact that the ball is low to slap it away.

If Jah takes the time to fake, he's drawing guys towards him and giving the defense an extra second or so. And though he's not putting the ball on the floor, he IS bringing the ball down to where it can get slapped at.

I think 9 times out of 10, faking just does't have much upside for Jah, and DOES have more downside. Bottom line, he's shooting like 65% from the floor, and nobody's blocking him. Probably wouldn't hurt to do it in certain situations, but I think most big man coaches would take what Jah does (never fake) to what most freshmen big men do (fake too much).

JMHO.

OldPhiKap
01-09-2015, 10:15 AM
Smarter basketball minds than mine please chime in, but I thought faking was something almost all big men going into college had to UN-learn.

Kind of like putting the ball on the floor. It's not that you should NEVER do it as a big man in college, it's that the times where you should are pretty limited. And if you do it outside those times, about 15 small guys are going to use the extra time to converge on you, and use the fact that the ball is low to slap it away.

If Jah takes the time to fake, he's drawing guys towards him and giving the defense an extra second or so. And though he's not putting the ball on the floor, he IS bringing the ball down to where it can get slapped at.

I think 9 times out of 10, faking just does't have much upside for Jah, and DOES have more downside. Bottom line, he's shooting like 65% from the floor, and nobody's blocking him. Probably wouldn't hurt to do it in certain situations, but I think most big man coaches would take what Jah does (never fake) to what most freshmen big men do (fake too much).

JMHO.

One thing I've noticed is that when Jah gets the ball he does not bring it down to his waist (letting a smaller guy get his mitts on it) -- he keeps it in good position high. You are right, with most big guys this seems to take years to get out of their system.

mkirsh
01-09-2015, 10:22 AM
There are different ways to score in the post, and based on what we've seen from Okafor so far, I don't think he needs to utilize a fake to be effective. The purpose of a fake is to get the defense out of position, but Okafor seems to have enough of a variety of post moves that he can score regardless of what the defender is doing, so no need to move the defender with a fake. Don't recall Brand faking much either; instead just used his body to create space to get his shot off.

PSurprise
01-09-2015, 10:22 AM
Daniel gets a T.

DBFAN
01-09-2015, 10:50 AM
One of the things that I admire about Jah's offensive game is that he get's the shot off so quickly. Now I'm not talking about the times he takes the ball to the basket with the dribble. On those shots, there are times he should use a shot fake. But on the times he receives the ball in the low post, I love the way he get's the shot off so quickly. The defense doesn't have time to even contest his shot. Jah has a game that a lot of NBA centers don't have. You can tell that he's worked hard on his game and the kid has natural ability that one can only dream about. GoDuke!

Yeah I agree here. There is no need to use the fake when that close to the rim. His moves are so quick and smooth and a very quick release. And I hate to sound rude but the perfect example of how the shot fake can get in the way is Marshall. He shot fakes EVERY time he gets the ball. Giving time for 3 people to collapse. And with all of his Arhletic ability he rarely gets a good shot up

killerleft
01-09-2015, 10:55 AM
ANYBODY, especially someone as good as Okafor, should use a fake now and then. He could be fouling people out left and right, I would think. Get 'em in the air. The defenders would be at Jahlil's mercy. C'mon!

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-09-2015, 11:00 AM
ANYBODY, especially someone as good as Okafor, should use a fake now and then. He could be fouling people out left and right, I would think. Get 'em in the air. The defenders would be at Jahlil's mercy. C'mon!

Don't fake the funk on a nasty dunk.

4629

Anyone remember?

CDu
01-09-2015, 11:19 AM
Okafor has scored double digits in every game this season. He is shooting 68% from the field and has had just two games all season (and none since Thanksgiving) in which he has shot below 57% from the field. And he has shown a wide variety of post moves in amassing those numbers.

So while it may or may not be true that he never fakes, that doesn't seem to be preventing him from being an incredibly efficient and effective scorer.

Leelee902
01-09-2015, 11:30 AM
Pretty darn good shot fake on display against another NPOY candidate around 1:48 ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTOf-WNj1x0


And here against the always tough Sparty around 3:55 ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-9u_skZIRo
(sorry, I couldn't post more than one video)


I think he utilizes it when need be and maybe he could more, but at least he knows how :cool:

nmduke2001
01-09-2015, 11:46 AM
while we're at it: Matt Jones needs to hit the plyometrics harder or put some flubber in his shoes. he's getting crushed on semi-open transition lay-ups; the other players look like Chief smacking it off the backboard.

I couldn't agree more. Last game, I asked my wife if she remembered Matt ever dunking. We couldn't recall a time that he had. Can he?

CDu
01-09-2015, 11:49 AM
I couldn't agree more. Last game, I asked my wife if she remembered Matt ever dunking. We couldn't recall a time that he had. Can he?

He really does go up awfully tentatively on all of his layup attempts. Very strange. I would imagine that anyone 6'5" and playing college bball can dunk. I mean, even you could dunk back in the day, right? ;) He'd have to have really poor hops to not be able to dunk. But I also can't remember ever seeing Jones do it. Maybe he's just not a great leaper and not confident in his finishing at the rim so he plays it "safe"?

53n206
01-09-2015, 12:31 PM
When you're pure you don't need to fake...Jahlil is gold.

Lar77
01-09-2015, 12:36 PM
He really does go up awfully tentatively on all of his layup attempts. Very strange. I would imagine that anyone 6'5" and playing college bball can dunk. I mean, even you could dunk back in the day, right? ;) He'd have to have really poor hops to not be able to dunk. But I also can't remember ever seeing Jones do it. Maybe he's just not a great leaper and not confident in his finishing at the rim so he plays it "safe"?

Sounds like an "alarmingly unathletic" thread coming on

MCFinARL
01-09-2015, 12:55 PM
while we're at it: Matt Jones needs to hit the plyometrics harder or put some flubber in his shoes. he's getting crushed on semi-open transition lay-ups; the other players look like Chief smacking it off the backboard.

Um, are flubber shoes regulation equipment? ;)

DavidBenAkiva
01-09-2015, 01:01 PM
Jah uses fakes from time to time. These include shot fakes and spin fakes. He clearly knows what he is doing with his back to the basket. As another poster already has shown through clips from the Wisconsin and MSU game, Okafor will fake from time to time.

The way Okafor will catch the ball and pause before attacking the basket is another form of a fake. Often, he catches the ball in the, pauses for a moment, and then makes a quick move. I love it when he pauses to read the defense and see if there's an open teammate. It's so smart from a 19 year old kid. That transition from pause to quick move accomplishes the same thing a shot fake can. A change of pace can leave the defender out of position to guard his man. It's a thing of beauty that is so rarely seen in college or the pros. We are so lucky to have this kid this year.

jv001
01-09-2015, 01:04 PM
He really does go up awfully tentatively on all of his layup attempts. Very strange. I would imagine that anyone 6'5" and playing college bball can dunk. I mean, even you could dunk back in the day, right? ;) He'd have to have really poor hops to not be able to dunk. But I also can't remember ever seeing Jones do it. Maybe he's just not a great leaper and not confident in his finishing at the rim so he plays it "safe"?

Even our own Bobby Hurley(6') dunked one time in a game. Hurley did say that he would not do that again. If I remember correctly, he did it because his team mates were kidding him about his jumping ability. As for Matt, I know of at least 4 times he could have dunked and had his shot blocked. Then there were other time he could have dunked, but didn't and he made the layup. I'm pretty sure if Bobby Hurley could dunk a basketball, Matt Jones can as well. Dunk the ball Matt. GoDuke!

duketaylor
01-09-2015, 01:07 PM
"ANYBODY, especially someone as good as Okafor, should use a fake now and then. He could be fouling people out left and right, I would think. Get 'em in the air. The defenders would be at Jahlil's mercy. C'mon!" Completely agree.


I would use Jah to get the opposing bigs in foul trouble, ala Laettner.

I did see Jah get blocked against Wake last week.

Remembered it in the 2nd half:

"8:39 45-67 Jahlil Okafor missed Jumper.
8:39 Dennis Clifford Block. 45-67 "

Certainly doesn't happen often, though.

martydoesntfoul
01-09-2015, 01:11 PM
Marty doesn't foul.

Can't argue with that :-)

Tripping William
01-09-2015, 01:30 PM
"ANYBODY, especially someone as good as Okafor, should use a fake now and then. He could be fouling people out left and right, I would think. Get 'em in the air. The defenders would be at Jahlil's mercy. C'mon!" Completely agree.


I would use Jah to get the opposing bigs in foul trouble, ala Laettner.

I did see Jah get blocked against Wake last week.

Remembered it in the 2nd half:

"8:39 45-67 Jahlil Okafor missed Jumper.
8:39 Dennis Clifford Block. 45-67 "

Certainly doesn't happen often, though.

Slight correction: This was against BC, not Wake.

Comment: With Jah's current free throw percentage, I'm not persuaded that focusing his efforts on drawing fouls is the highest & best use of his talents right now.

duketaylor
01-09-2015, 01:39 PM
Thank you TW, my err.

nmduke2001
01-09-2015, 03:19 PM
I mean, even you could dunk back in the day, right? ;)

With a volleyball and a loose rim, multiple times. Basketball and tight rim, not so much.

UrinalCake
01-09-2015, 03:20 PM
Leelee - I was thinking about that fake on Kaminsky as I was reading the OP. It was a devastating move. I agree that using it more often would be beneficial. Oak's game is all about quickness, so I think he likes to make his move and then shoot right away. If he developed some fakes like Hakeem he'd be even more unstoppable.

Bob Green
01-09-2015, 03:54 PM
Smarter basketball minds than mine please chime in, but I thought faking was something almost all big men going into college had to UN-learn.

Well I certainly am not a smarter basketball mind than you, but I agree too much faking is a bad thing.

NSDukeFan
01-09-2015, 04:03 PM
One thing I've noticed is that when Jah gets the ball he does not bring it down to his waist (letting a smaller guy get his mitts on it) -- he keeps it in good position high. You are right, with most big guys this seems to take years to get out of their system.

As a small guy, I hate when big guys keep the ball high. At least give me a chance to get my mitts on it. (Unfortunately, that was in my quicker days. If you bring the ball down now, I don't think I will be able to steal it as I approach in slow motion.)

cato
01-09-2015, 04:07 PM
As a small guy, I hate when big guys keep the ball high. At least give me a chance to get my mitts on it. (Unfortunately, that was in my quicker days. If you bring the ball down now, I don't think I will be able to steal it as I approach in slow motion.)

I don't think I'd be able to steal the ball from Jah if he held it in one hand by his waist and the refs looked the other way.

I'm glad none of those things happen on a regular basis, though.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-09-2015, 04:39 PM
I don't think I'd be able to steal the ball from Jah if he held it in one hand by his waist and the refs looked the other way.

I'm glad none of those things happen on a regular basis, though.

What if there were melted butter on the ball and he was blindfolded?

oldnavy
01-09-2015, 05:26 PM
Well I certainly am not a smarter basketball mind than you, but I agree too much faking is a bad thing.

I used to get so mad at Shavlik Randolph for pump faking instead of just going up.... drove me crazy!

CDu
01-09-2015, 05:41 PM
With a volleyball and a loose rim, multiple times. Basketball and tight rim, not so much.

Same here, but we are both under 6'. I would hope Matt Jones (with a good half a foot on me in height) could throw it down.

Tripping William
01-09-2015, 07:19 PM
Leelee - I was thinking about that fake on Kaminsky as I was reading the OP. It was a devastating move. I agree that using it more often would be beneficial. Oak's game is all about quickness, so I think he likes to make his move and then shoot right away. If he developed some fakes like Hakeem he'd be even more unstoppable.

Yeah, I don't think the OP was advocating that Jah go all Meg-Ryan-in-When-Harry-Met-Sally, but that if he did *this*, on occasion, he'd take a further step forward in his otherworldly progression. I'd be okay with that, although his current otherworldliness is pretty damn awesome.

subzero02
01-09-2015, 07:56 PM
I couldn't agree more. Last game, I asked my wife if she remembered Matt ever dunking. We couldn't recall a time that he had. Can he?

Really?

MarkD83
01-09-2015, 08:09 PM
Pretty darn good shot fake on display against another NPOY candidate around 1:48 ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTOf-WNj1x0


And here against the always tough Sparty around 3:55 ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-9u_skZIRo
(sorry, I couldn't post more than one video)


I think he utilizes it when need be and maybe he could more, but at least he knows how :cool:

Thank you for posting this. The play against Wisc immediately came to mind when I read the title of this thread.

I do think in the WF game he started to get a little sloppy by keeping one hand on the ball, but that is easily correctable.

captmojo
01-10-2015, 11:31 AM
He definitely would benefit from an occasional shot fake, as would his teammates. They seem to be ignoring, the development of this skill, and others have been taking a pass on this skill for a few of the past years. Many times I sit and scream out, "Make a fake sometime!", toward the TV screen, at players that don't have the benefit of hearing me. The neighbors know my feelings though, as I see Duke players that are lucky enough, not to come away wearing a huge lump in their throats because a basketball is stuck down in there, having been the result of a blocked shot.

It's like they are still making their offensive moves that they are used to having great success with at the previous level. Someone needs to tell them that they are up against more skilled and savvy competitors now. They are also going against some size that they may not have had to deal with before.

Shot fakes are fundamental. Especially to we under 6 footers, lacking the ability to jump through the roof but somehow, by fate if nothing else, find the ball in our puny hands underneath the goal. It's not always necessary, but it more often is. And, it's necessary to know the difference between the times you need it, and the times you don't. Certainly, if you are close enough to the rim that it becomes an object that's taking up too much space for a defender to reach the ball going up for a shot, the fake isn't, and should not be used because it would be a wasted movement, take up more time in the lane (3 second rule) and it schools the defender for future opportunities. (He learns all your moves, others do too)

More development is needed by this entire team.

captmojo
01-12-2015, 10:11 AM
...and it really shows. Ten, (10) shots blocked! This certainly, isn't the only reason for the outcome. State's shooting was phenomenal. Keep that up and do it against others! 55% field and 62% behind the arc are gonna beat a LOT of competition.

Plus, I really like to pat myself on the back at times. ;)

FerryFor50
01-12-2015, 10:18 AM
...and it really shows. Ten, (10) shots blocked! This certainly, isn't the only reason for the outcome. State's shooting was phenomenal. Keep that up and do it against others! 55% field and 62% behind the arc are gonna beat a LOT of competition.

Plus, I really like to pat myself on the back at times. ;)

Jah missed all of 3 shots. I only recall one shot being blocked (other than shots on fouls). Most of the NCSU blocks were on players other than Jah, including Winslow, who was head faking.

Not sure how this confirms your argument.

captmojo
01-12-2015, 10:25 AM
Jah missed all of 3 shots. I only recall one shot being blocked (other than shots on fouls). Most of the NCSU blocks were on players other than Jah, including Winslow, who was head faking.

Not sure how this confirms your argument.

Maybe it off the topic a tad (Ja's fakes), but the block stat I posted was from the team totals. And earlier, I spoke also in reference to the team, as a whole.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-12-2015, 10:55 AM
He had a head fake at the 15 min mark of the first half.

Also, I feel you see more blocks after a head fake. If your defender doesn't bite they are even more prepared.

lotusland
01-12-2015, 06:05 PM
He had a head fake at the 15 min mark of the first half.

Also, I feel you see more blocks after a head fake. If your defender doesn't bite they are even more prepared.

It drove us all crazy when MP3 pump faked or hesitated instead of going up strong. Most bigs get blocked by the help defender so I agree that a pump fake or hesitation just increases the chance. I wouldn't want Okafor to start thinking too much because his instinct in the post is awesome already.

captmojo
01-13-2015, 10:50 AM
The one, best faking, move I saw in all this game by a Duke player, was made by Winslow. He had the ball in the lane, on the left side, by the first block. After his shot-fake, he kicked outside for an open three that was available straight behind him. I forget the shooter, but it was for a score.

I feel this topic is important enough to bump back to the top. Especially after today's report from Barry Jacobs, on the home page.

FerryFor50
01-13-2015, 10:52 AM
The one, best faking, move I saw in all this game by a Duke player, was made by Winslow. He had the ball in the lane, on the left side, by the first block. After his shot-fake, he kicked outside for an open three that was available straight behind him. I forget the shooter, but it was for a score.

I feel this topic is important enough to bump back to the top. Especially after today's report from Barry Jacobs, on the home page.

What does that article have to do with head fakes?

Players get blocked on head fakes all the time.

captmojo
01-13-2015, 11:00 AM
What does that article have to do with head fakes?

Players get blocked on head fakes all the time.

I must have missed something. Was this subject restricted to the head fake?

turnandburn55
01-13-2015, 01:52 PM
Smarter basketball minds than mine please chime in, but I thought faking was something almost all big men going into college had to UN-learn.

Kind of like putting the ball on the floor. It's not that you should NEVER do it as a big man in college, it's that the times where you should are pretty limited. And if you do it outside those times, about 15 small guys are going to use the extra time to converge on you, and use the fact that the ball is low to slap it away.

I, too, remember the Mason Plumlee years with fondness.