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dukejunkie
01-06-2015, 08:16 PM
Chad Ford has his updated Mock Draft posted:

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/draft/mock/?season=2015&version=5&source=Chad-Ford-Big-Board&refresh=true

He has Okafor at 1, Winslow at 6, and Jones at 23.

I know it is early and it's time to enjoy this season. I just assumed all three of Duke's freshman starters would be entering the draft. They've all performed as well as advertised and assume most of us would be content with just one year. However, it seems there's a good chance Jones will be back. Should I get ready for another April vigil or just consider him gone and spare myself the pain?

Ultrarunner
01-06-2015, 08:18 PM
Chad Ford has his updated Mock Draft posted:

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/draft/mock/?season=2015&version=5&source=Chad-Ford-Big-Board&refresh=true

He has Okafor at 1, Winslow at 6, and Jones at 23.

I know it is early and it's time to enjoy this season. I just assumed all three of Duke's freshman starters would be entering the draft. They've all performed as well as advertised and assume most of us would be content with just one year. However, it seems there's a good chance Jones will be back. Should I get ready for another April vigil or just consider him gone and spare myself the pain?

I'm planning on Jones leaving, then rejoicing later in the year when he decides to stay.

dukelifer
01-06-2015, 09:09 PM
I'm planning on Jones leaving, then rejoicing later in the year when he decides to stay.

He will likely go before his senior year- but he is a pretty small guard for the NBA. Tyler Ennis who is a decent comp is not exactly tearing up the league. Irving has a ball handling gift and Wall is a jet. Both are bigger and longer than Jones. It is hard for little guards unless they can shoot lights out. He will get there but he needs to get stronger.

FerryFor50
01-06-2015, 09:16 PM
He will likely go before his senior year- but he is a pretty small guard for the NBA. Tyler Ennis who is a decent comp is not exactly tearing up the league. Irving has a ball handling gift and Wall is a jet. Both are bigger and longer than Jones. It is hard for little guards unless they can shoot lights out. He will get there but he needs to get stronger.

Ennis *is* real good comp. Hopefully Jones ends up as good as Ennis. :)

Kedsy
01-06-2015, 11:57 PM
Ennis *is* real good comp. Hopefully Jones ends up as good as Ennis. :)

Ennis was drafted 18th. If the gurus think Tyus won't even go that high, it might be a decent argument for him to stay. No point debating it, however, Nobody has any solid information at this point, so we'll just have to wait and see.

mr. synellinden
01-07-2015, 12:03 AM
NBAdraft.net (http://www.nbadraft.net/2016mock_draft) has him going #24 next year.

Doug.I.Am
01-09-2015, 11:24 AM
Been awhile since I've been around, but if Jones does go who do we have at the point next year?

AIRFORCEDUKIE
01-09-2015, 12:15 PM
Right now It would have to be Grayson Allen, or Sheed I guess. We have Kennard and Jeter signed for next year and our other targets aren't PGS. The 2016 class has Dennis Smith out of Greenville, and Derryck Thornton out of Henderson Nevada which is just north of Vegas. So help is not on the way unless K start recruiting an unsigned player for next year which is always a possibility. I think Sheed could run the squad much like Scheyer did his senior year. I hope Jones stays and Winslow decides that he wants to be the go to guy next year. But can't say no to a top 10 draft spot I guess.

CDu
01-09-2015, 12:25 PM
Right now It would have to be Grayson Allen, or Sheed I guess. We have Kennard and Jeter signed for next year and our other targets aren't PGS. The 2016 class has Dennis Smith out of Greenville, and Derryck Thornton out of Henderson Nevada which is just north of Vegas. So help is not on the way unless K start recruiting an unsigned player for next year which is always a possibility. I think Sheed could run the squad much like Scheyer did his senior year. I hope Jones stays and Winslow decides that he wants to be the go to guy next year. But can't say no to a top 10 draft spot I guess.

I've seen nothing to suggest that Allen is a PG. I'd have to guess it would be Sulaimon, though that possibility doesn't excite me all that much. I think we have to really hope that Tyus Jones sticks around for another year or that Sulaimon makes a HUGE jump in his playmaking next year. Actually, we'll probably need both to happen.

53n206
01-09-2015, 12:27 PM
Have smith and Thornton committed?

Kedsy
01-09-2015, 01:05 PM
Have smith and Thornton committed?

No. But we reportedly are recruiting both of them. (I think.)

jv001
01-09-2015, 01:13 PM
I've seen nothing to suggest that Allen is a PG. I'd have to guess it would be Sulaimon, though that possibility doesn't excite me all that much. I think we have to really hope that Tyus Jones sticks around for another year or that Sulaimon makes a HUGE jump in his playmaking next year. Actually, we'll probably need both to happen.
I believe that with Rasheed playing point guard some negative things happen to Duke. 1) Rasheed would probably be a shoot first and pass second point guard. 2) Duke's offense would resemble the Austin Rivers Duke team. Too much standing around and waiting for Rasheed do his thing. 3) If Rasheed tried to be a pass first point guard, it might take away some of his aggressiveness. I really hope Tyus stays one more year. GoDuke!

Ichabod Drain
01-09-2015, 01:17 PM
I've seen nothing to suggest that Allen is a PG. I'd have to guess it would be Sulaimon, though that possibility doesn't excite me all that much. I think we have to really hope that Tyus Jones sticks around for another year or that Sulaimon makes a HUGE jump in his playmaking next year. Actually, we'll probably need both to happen.

Allen has said in at least one interview since arriving at Duke that the staff is having him work on his PG skills.

flyingdutchdevil
01-09-2015, 01:20 PM
Allen has said in at least one interview since arriving at Duke that the staff is having him work on his PG skills.

And Amile has spent plenty of time working on his mid-range jumper. But do you want Amile continuously shooting Js when open? Results have not been kind this year.

In the hypothetical that T Jones leaves, Rasheed is absolutely our best bet. He has flaws, but he'd be the best of our options.

Ichabod Drain
01-09-2015, 01:25 PM
And Amile has spent plenty of time working on his mid-range jumper. But do you want Amile continuously shooting Js when open? Results have not been kind this year.

In the hypothetical that T Jones leaves, Rasheed is absolutely our best bet. He has flaws, but he'd be the best of our options.

Never did I say what I wanted or think will happen. I just referenced what Allen himself said in an interview. But thanks for the smart response anyway.

CDu
01-09-2015, 01:30 PM
Allen has said in at least one interview since arriving at Duke that the staff is having him work on his PG skills.

I'm sure that they are doing so, because we will need two guys to play PG if Tyus Jones leaves. I'm guessing they are having Matt Jones do so as well. I'd imagine that (if Tyus Jones leaves) Sulaimon would be the starting PG. The backup PG would be whoever of Allen, Matt Jones, and Kennard proves the best at it.

I'd be absolutely shocked if Allen was our starting PG next year (or any year).

AIRFORCEDUKIE
01-09-2015, 01:32 PM
I was just saying that those are our only two reasonable options as of this moment if Jones were to leave for the NBA. Im not suggesting its a good idea but Coach K has made it work in the past I see no reason why he cant figure something out either way next season if the need arises. And the two point guards I mentioned are targets, they have not committed to anything it was just a run down of what our options are.

jv001
01-09-2015, 01:38 PM
I'm sure that they are doing so, because we will need two guys to play PG if Tyus Jones leaves. I'm guessing they are having Matt Jones do so as well. I'd imagine that (if Tyus Jones leaves) Sulaimon would be the starting PG. The backup PG would be whoever of Allen, Matt Jones, and Kennard proves the best at it.

I'd be absolutely shocked if Allen was our starting PG next year (or any year).

I had been running through my mind, who could be a Jon Scheyer type point guard for next season? Allen will be a sophomore, Kennard a freshman, Rasheed a senior and M. Jones a junior. Looking at experience and calming the team in offensive sets, I believe Matt comes closer to a Scheyer type point guard. The question would be, can Matt score enough to earn the minutes to be a back up point guard. Because like you said, at this point in time Rasheed appears to be the starting point guard. GoDuke!

SoCalDukeFan
01-09-2015, 01:43 PM
when this season is over, the players leaving early for the NBA are known, and recruiting is over.

SoCal

jv001
01-09-2015, 01:52 PM
when this season is over, the players leaving early for the NBA are known, and recruiting is over.

SoCal

I'm not going to worry about next season's point guard, but I'm having fun discussing who posters think it might be, :cool: GoDuke!

AIRFORCEDUKIE
01-09-2015, 02:37 PM
3 days without a game, gotta talk about something. I wish there was a game every other day :(

flyingdutchdevil
01-09-2015, 02:42 PM
3 days without a game, gotta talk about something. I wish there was a game every other day :(

Understand where you're coming from, but I'm happy with the 3-days-off schedule. Gives my heart time to recuperate.

jv001
01-09-2015, 02:44 PM
I'm not an insider on some of the Draft Boards. Does anyone know how high Kevon Looney is projected for the next draft? He was outstanding last night for the UCLA Bruins. A double-double I believe. GoDuke!

flyingdutchdevil
01-09-2015, 02:53 PM
I'm not an insider on some of the Draft Boards. Does anyone know how high Kevon Looney is projected for the next draft? He was outstanding last night for the UCLA Bruins. A double-double I believe. GoDuke!

NBAdraft.net: 9
Draft Express: 11
Chad Ford ESPN: 5

Safe to say that Monsieur Looney is gooooone after this season (and why not? UCLA is a sinking ship right now).

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-09-2015, 03:11 PM
NBAdraft.net (http://www.nbadraft.net/2016mock_draft) has him going #24 next year.

I would hope that either Tyus would go in the top 10-12 or would stick around another year. Bottom of the first round doesn't feel (to me) worth leaving early.

But they rarely ask me...

mattman91
01-09-2015, 03:27 PM
I would hope that either Tyus would go in the top 10-12 or would stick around another year. Bottom of the first round doesn't feel (to me) worth leaving early.

But they rarely ask me...

I'd leave school for a guaranteed $1,000,000. Hell, I'd leave my job for a million. Maybe even leave my girlfriend :cool:

MartyClark
01-09-2015, 04:49 PM
I would hope that either Tyus would go in the top 10-12 or would stick around another year. Bottom of the first round doesn't feel (to me) worth leaving early.

But they rarely ask me...

I'm conflicted. I wish the NBA best for this kid. At the same time, I would really like for him to stick around for another year or two.

superdave
01-09-2015, 05:05 PM
Rasheed's go to move to set up the offense when he is playing the point is very similar to what Nolan did in 2011 once Kyrie went down - a big guy comes and sets a screen at the top of the key, Rasheed uses the screen to create space and either drive deeper into the lane or kick to either wing.

Nolan had a great floater and we had good shooters. I am not sure that Sheed has that versatility at this point. I do not know if he is a true enough point to run a more free-flowing motion offense either. I think he is ideal running points in spots, particularly as the second option at point but probably not as the primary option.

I dont know if Luke Kennard is more of a Scheyer type guard than Rasheed is, but the two of them could certainly split the duties.

itshoopsbabee
01-09-2015, 05:30 PM
I'd leave school for a guaranteed $1,000,000. Hell, I'd leave my job for a million. Maybe even leave my girlfriend :cool:



So, we've determined what you are, we're just negotiating price?

mr. synellinden
01-09-2015, 07:45 PM
I would hope that either Tyus would go in the top 10-12 or would stick around another year. Bottom of the first round doesn't feel (to me) worth leaving early.

But they rarely ask me...

For the record - and this is an important point - the NBAdraft.net projection is for NEXT year - the 2016 Draft.

jv001
01-09-2015, 10:13 PM
NBAdraft.net: 9
Draft Express: 11
Chad Ford ESPN: 5

Safe to say that Monsieur Looney is gooooone after this season (and why not? UCLA is a sinking ship right now).

Thanks for the information flyingdutchdevil. Looney looked really good last night. I say that after watching the 2 overtimes only. But the stats that were flashed on the screen were impressive as was his play. I know Coach K wanted him badly, but I think Duke wanted Justise more. GoDuke!

Henderson
01-10-2015, 08:02 PM
Right now It would have to be Grayson Allen, or Sheed I guess. We have Kennard and Jeter signed for next year and our other targets aren't PGS. The 2016 class has Dennis Smith out of Greenville, and Derryck Thornton out of Henderson Nevada which is just north of Vegas. So help is not on the way unless K start recruiting an unsigned player for next year which is always a possibility. I think Sheed could run the squad much like Scheyer did his senior year. I hope Jones stays and Winslow decides that he wants to be the go to guy next year. But can't say no to a top 10 draft spot I guess.

Thornton is from California; he just attends Findlay Prep in Henderson (south of LV) for high school.

Findlay is an unabashed basketball mill, established 9 years ago by a local car dealer to help basketball players gain D1 eligibility while majoring in balling. It's worked. But the "school" was declared in 2013 by the NCAA to be "non-academic", which restricts recruiting there. The same restriction was applied to Huntington Prep, and neither has been affected. Go NCAA.

We also have offered PG Troy Brown Jr. from Centennial H.S. in LV, but he's class of 2017, which is a long time to wait.

FerryFor50
01-13-2015, 11:27 AM
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2326928-nba-draft-notebook-better-wing-prospect-justice-winslow-or-stanley-johnson

Kedsy
01-13-2015, 11:37 AM
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2326928-nba-draft-notebook-better-wing-prospect-justice-winslow-or-stanley-johnson

A surprisingly decent article from Bleacher Report.

FerryFor50
01-13-2015, 11:39 AM
A surprisingly decent article from Bleacher Report.

Yea, was a really good breakdown.

COYS
01-13-2015, 12:25 PM
That was a great breakdown. Proof that bleacher report isn't always terrible.

Also, I might be behind the times on this one, but the hoop-math site referenced for some of the statistics is fascinating. I don't have a KenPom subscription so it's nice to have a site to look at to dig down into the numbers a bit more. I thought Justise had been bad on 2 point jumpers. I remember early in the season I was excited because we used to run a few Gerald Henderson-like plays where we'd let Justise elevate for a 12 footer on an inbound play, but since he's only managed to make 4 all season, I see now why we haven't gone back to that. 4-27 is not so great, albeit in a small sample size, comparatively.

Des Esseintes
01-13-2015, 02:05 PM
So...I remember a number of Hawks fans on here wishing the franchise would tear everything down and undergo a three-year suck to get an elite player or two through the draft to build around. That still being longed for?

JasonEvans
01-13-2015, 03:16 PM
So...I remember a number of Hawks fans on here wishing the franchise would tear everything down and undergo a three-year suck to get an elite player or two through the draft to build around. That still being longed for?

As the loudest advocate of that position, I humbly admit I was wrong, wrong, wrong. I had no idea how big an impact a coach like Mike Budenholzer could have on a team. We truly have become Spurs East and it is incredibly fun to watch.

By the way, it is easy to look at the Hawks and think, "yeah, but how would they be if they were playing in the brutal West?" It is worth nothing that they are 10-2 against the West thus far with ROAD victories over Houston, Dallas, Portland, and the Clippers. They are legitimately alongside the Warriors as the top team in the NBA right now... stunning.

-Jason "The NBA Coach of the Year trophy already has BUD etched on it... despite the job Steve Kerr is doing, this is one award that is pretty much wrapped up" Evans

Duvall
01-13-2015, 03:21 PM
-Jason "The NBA Coach of the Year trophy already has BUD etched on it... despite the job Steve Kerr is doing, this is one award that is pretty much wrapped up" Evans

Okay, but what about NBA Executive of the Year?

JasonEvans
01-13-2015, 03:29 PM
Okay, but what about NBA Executive of the Year?

I don't think guys embroiled in scandal (I expect the new ownership will oust him, once we know who the new owner is) will make it, though I think Danny got sorta trapped and the whole situation has been at least a little unfair to him.

-Jason "even though I think it is Bud's coaching that has this team soaring, gotta credit Danny with giving Bud the pieces and hiring Bud in the first place" Evans

BD80
01-13-2015, 03:46 PM
... -Jason "The NBA Coach of the Year trophy already has BUD etched on it... despite the job Steve Kerr is doing, this is one award that is pretty much wrapped up" Evans

Cough, SVG, cough.

Des Esseintes
01-13-2015, 04:35 PM
I don't think guys embroiled in scandal (I expect the new ownership will oust him, once we know who the new owner is) will make it, though I think Danny got sorta trapped and the whole situation has been at least a little unfair to him.

-Jason "even though I think it is Bud's coaching that has this team soaring, gotta credit Danny with giving Bud the pieces and hiring Bud in the first place" Evans

Other than jettisoning Lou Williams for a box of Ice Cream Snickers, hard to think of a personnel mistake committed by Ferry. I was very critical of him during the Deng fiasco, but he's clearly a fantastic GM, one who learned a lot from what didn't work in Cleveland.

Ice Cream Snickers are delicious, of course.

AIRFORCEDUKIE
01-13-2015, 04:42 PM
Thornton is from California; he just attends Findlay Prep in Henderson (south of LV) for high school.

Findlay is an unabashed basketball mill, established 9 years ago by a local car dealer to help basketball players gain D1 eligibility while majoring in balling. It's worked. But the "school" was declared in 2013 by the NCAA to be "non-academic", which restricts recruiting there. The same restriction was applied to Huntington Prep, and neither has been affected. Go NCAA.

We also have offered PG Troy Brown Jr. from Centennial H.S. in LV, but he's class of 2017, which is a long time to wait.

Well your name is Henderson so you should know :cool:

I used to live in North Las Vegas so you are correct Henderson is South since it was all the way on the other side from me. Good call.. and I just meant hes going to school there.

COYS
01-13-2015, 06:14 PM
As the loudest advocate of that position, I humbly admit I was wrong, wrong, wrong. I had no idea how big an impact a coach like Mike Budenholzer could have on a team. We truly have become Spurs East and it is incredibly fun to watch.

By the way, it is easy to look at the Hawks and think, "yeah, but how would they be if they were playing in the brutal West?" It is worth nothing that they are 10-2 against the West thus far with ROAD victories over Houston, Dallas, Portland, and the Clippers. They are legitimately alongside the Warriors as the top team in the NBA right now... stunning.

-Jason "The NBA Coach of the Year trophy already has BUD etched on it... despite the job Steve Kerr is doing, this is one award that is pretty much wrapped up" Evans

I join Jason in the chorus of Hawks fans who are just stunned right now. I never saw this coming. The underlying stats look good for the Hawks strong to play to continue. Never been so happy to be so wrong.

JasonEvans
01-14-2015, 12:10 PM
Cough, SVG, cough.

The Pistons are 14-24 and their turnaround the past ten games is remarkable. But the Hawks are 30-8 and have won 23 of their past 25. It is heck of a lot harder to take a fringe playoff team and turn them into one of the NBA's best than it is to take a really bad team and make them decent. With so many teams tanking and disinterested in winning, if you merely start trying a little bit, you can generally sniff something close to .500.

But, if the Pistons continue to win 90% of their games moving forward, the trophy may have to bear the name Bud Van Gundy or something like that ;)

-Jason "SVG should maybe win exec of the year for jettisoning Josh Smith" Evans

CDu
01-14-2015, 05:11 PM
The Pistons are 14-24 and their turnaround the past ten games is remarkable. But the Hawks are 30-8 and have won 23 of their past 25. It is heck of a lot harder to take a fringe playoff team and turn them into one of the NBA's best than it is to take a really bad team and make them decent. With so many teams tanking and disinterested in winning, if you merely start trying a little bit, you can generally sniff something close to .500.

But, if the Pistons continue to win 90% of their games moving forward, the trophy may have to bear the name Bud Van Gundy or something like that ;)

-Jason "SVG should maybe win exec of the year for jettisoning Josh Smith" Evans

To be fair, 14-24 in the East is not exactly what I would call "decent." I agree that right now the award should go to Atlanta's coach. What they are doing is really really impressive.

Actually, that's a pretty darn good team though. Teague has, in my opinion, quietly pushed himself into the "Top-10 PG" conversation. He hasn't had quite the emergence as Wall, Curry, and Lillard have had this year, but he's been really really good. Horford is a beast. They are a nightmare to defend because of how well they can space the floor, with almost all of their players capable of hitting from 3 (including all but one of the guys in their frontcourt rotation). They've got two capable backup PGs in Schroeder and Mack. They have the best shooter in the NBA in Korver. They complement him with good perimeter defenders like Schroeder, Carroll, and Sefalosha. It's a really deep and balanced team.

Of course, it remains to be seen what will happen once they hit the postseason and have to win against a team 4 straight times. It's one thing to catch good teams off-guard with their unorthodox style, but it's another once the Xs and Os battle really begins. Still, they are really fun to watch and a really good story.

weezie
01-14-2015, 06:50 PM
Cough, SVG, cough.


Thinking about getting on a big silver bird and then wandering up to Ye Olde Palace of Auburn Hills just the see what is up....

Des Esseintes
01-25-2015, 04:21 AM
Something to keep in mind as the spring rolls forward. Chad Ford's credibility has been terminated (http://deadspin.com/espns-chad-ford-has-been-retroactively-editing-draft-bo-1681631642). Turns out, Ford has been altering his draft board rankings years after the fact to make them look artificially prescient. That he thought he could get away with such a dumb idea is kind of amazing. Or maybe it's not. ESPN will probably keep him on the payroll anyway. Be proud, KU.

jv001
01-25-2015, 07:13 AM
Something to keep in mind as the spring rolls forward. Chad Ford's credibility has been terminated (http://deadspin.com/espns-chad-ford-has-been-retroactively-editing-draft-bo-1681631642). Turns out, Ford has been altering his draft board rankings years after the fact to make them look artificially prescient. That he thought he could get away with such a dumb idea is kind of amazing. Or maybe it's not. ESPN will probably keep him on the payroll anyway. Be proud, KU.

Is Chad an uncheater alum? :cool: He could have learned this trick there. GoDuke!

SCMatt33
05-07-2015, 08:19 PM
So with the early entry period over, I figured I'd dust off the old generic 2015 draft thread. Ironically, the last discussion on this thread was about Chad Ford's lack of credibility and I'm now going to post several tweets from Chad Ford under the assumption that he knows what he's talking about. Of course, this is more of a reporting news thing than a ranking prospects thing, so it's cool. Anyway, the combine participant lists have been released. It appears that Jah will be skipping out entirely and Justise and Tyus will only be showing up for the medical part. Quinn, however, will be a full participant in the scrimmaging. I'm glad to see Quinn got invited because he is not currently on most draft boards and will have a chance to work his way into the second round. He'll likely be dusting off the old point guard skills for this one as I don't imagine most GM's are interested in playing him off the ball.

Here is a link to the lists of medical only (https://twitter.com/chadfordinsider/status/596420755669131264) and full participants (https://twitter.com/chadfordinsider/status/596420755669131264) courtesy of Mr. Ford. There appear to be a few spots still in limbo as to whether some invitees will participate in the scrimmaging or not. If not, there may be a few others invited.

superdave
05-12-2015, 01:33 PM
The Draft Combine is May 14-15. The ping pong balls fly May 19. After that, it's a 6-week sprint to the draft and will be full of workouts and bad rumours.

The consensus is that Town is going to be the #1 pick. I am not sure that Okafor can displace him between now and the draft. Towns is a stretch 4 and that is more valuable in the league today than a big man who does not rebound particularly well. But GMs do fall in love with true centers, particularly ones with the skill set that Okafor has. I think Okafor would have to be in tip top shape in workouts to regain #1 overall status. I suspect we will hear if that is likely or not based on his BMI at the combine.

Here is the lottery % for the top 6 teams-
Minnesota 25.0%
Knicks 19.9%
Sixers 15.6%
Lakers 11.9%
Orlando 8.8%
Sacramento 6.3%

If you look at the top 4-5 teams in terms of need, here are the big men they have under contract going forward -
Minnesota - Dieng, Pekovic
Knicks - none
Sixers - McGee, Embiid, Noel
Lakers - Hill, Randle, Kelly
Orlando - Frye, Vucevic
Sacramento - Cousins, Landry, Williams, Thompson

Minny looks highly likely to take Towns because they have two centers. NY would seem to be the most likely to take a true 5 since they've got no one and a 5 is tougher to find. The Lakers would also seem likely to take a true 5 given the 4's they have. I would think the Sixers would look at a guard, but could they pass on the top overall talent to stretch for a guard? If you add the Knicks and Lakers odds together, there's a 30% chance a team that a team that really needs a true 5 could be picking at #1.

Ichabod Drain
05-12-2015, 01:42 PM
The Draft Combine is May 14-15. The ping pong balls fly May 19. After that, it's a 6-week sprint to the draft and will be full of workouts and bad rumours.

The consensus is that Town is going to be the #1 pick. I am not sure that Okafor can displace him between now and the draft. Towns is a stretch 4 and that is more valuable in the league today than a big man who does not rebound particularly well. But GMs do fall in love with true centers, particularly ones with the skill set that Okafor has. I think Okafor would have to be in tip top shape in workouts to regain #1 overall status. I suspect we will hear if that is likely or not based on his BMI at the combine.

Here is the lottery % for the top 6 teams-
Minnesota 25.0%
Knicks 19.9%
Sixers 15.6%
Lakers 11.9%
Orlando 8.8%
Sacramento 6.3%

If you look at the top 4-5 teams in terms of need, here are the big men they have under contract going forward -
Minnesota - Dieng, Pekovic
Knicks - none
Sixers - McGee, Embiid, Noel
Lakers - Hill, Randle, Kelly
Orlando - Frye, Vucevic
Sacramento - Cousins, Landry, Williams, Thompson

Minny looks highly likely to take Towns because they have two centers. NY would seem to be the most likely to take a true 5 since they've got no one and a 5 is tougher to find. The Lakers would also seem likely to take a true 5 given the 4's they have. I would think the Sixers would look at a guard, but could they pass on the top overall talent to stretch for a guard? If you add the Knicks and Lakers odds together, there's a 30% chance a team that a team that really needs a true 5 could be picking at #1.

Jonathan Givony of DraftExpress: "Jahlil Okafor has only been here for four days, but he came in phenomenal shape. As lean as I've ever seen him. Hasn't been vacationing..."

Though I still expect Towns to go #1. I think Oak will be ok with the #2 pick and a national championship ring.

superdave
05-12-2015, 02:07 PM
Jonathan Givony of DraftExpress: "Jahlil Okafor has only been here for four days, but he came in phenomenal shape. As lean as I've ever seen him. Hasn't been vacationing..."

Though I still expect Towns to go #1. I think Oak will be ok with the #2 pick and a national championship ring.

Good intel. Thank you. It would be great if they had Okafor and Towns workout head to head. Highly unlikely. Their agents would be more likely to joust than that.

Glad to see Okafor is going after it.

JasonEvans
05-12-2015, 02:18 PM
The consensus is that Town is going to be the #1 pick. I am not sure that Okafor can displace him between now and the draft. Towns is a stretch 4 and that is more valuable in the league today than a big man who does not rebound particularly well.

You're telling me that a guy who attempted a grand total of 8 3-pointers all season (making 2 of them) is a stretch 4? Towns is a fabulous offensive player in the post, but I never saw anything that would tell me he could take the ball on the perimeter, face the D, and hit a jumper/3-pointer. I'm not saying he's incapable of this, but I sure didn't see enough of it to label him a "stretch 4" at this point.

I do agree that there seems to be some consensus that Towns is the #1 ahead of Okafor, but it is close and team needs (as well as workouts and interviews) will play a role in the final decision.

-Jason "FWIW, Okafor averaged 8.5 rebounds per game last year while Towns averaged 6.7... different minutes played and certainly different quality of competition though" Evans

zoroaster
05-12-2015, 02:19 PM
I think Jah really has gotten something of a bad rap on his fitness. He's big and looks like he might be soft, but at least as of late, he's been reasonably cut. The dude has a six pack. This was in March:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVAZrdIhkO4&feature=youtu.be&t=21

(If the video doesn't automatically jump to the intended time, it's at 21 seconds in.)

Dev11
05-12-2015, 02:28 PM
Regarding Quinn Cook, I feel like he could give a team 10 minutes a game of backup point guard duties, playing decent on-ball defense, hitting threes, and doing a little drive and kick. For perhaps some more versed in the NBA than I am (I only really get into it at the end of the regular season and playoffs), what could Quinn not contribute that Will Bynum is currently doing for the Wizards? It's not a big role, but it's an NBA gig.

Kedsy
05-12-2015, 03:52 PM
Regarding Quinn Cook, I feel like he could give a team 10 minutes a game of backup point guard duties, playing decent on-ball defense, hitting threes, and doing a little drive and kick. For perhaps some more versed in the NBA than I am (I only really get into it at the end of the regular season and playoffs), what could Quinn not contribute that Will Bynum is currently doing for the Wizards? It's not a big role, but it's an NBA gig.

That's possible, but he's still not likely to be drafted. If you look at comps his size, the ones who get picked are either lightning quick or "pure" point guards and the ones who don't are decent-handle, good shooters like Quinn (or Scottie Reynolds or Seth Curry, as another example).


FWIW, Okafor averaged 8.5 rebounds per game last year while Towns averaged 6.7... different minutes played and certainly different quality of competition though

Looking at rebounding percentage, which is independent of minutes played (though not of competition level), Towns was a better defensive rebounder than Jahlil (22.2% to 18.2%) and about the same as an offensive rebounder (14.1% to 14.7% for Jahlil). If Towns has "passed" Jahlil as the favorite to be picked #1, I agree with you that it's not because he's a "stretch 4," but instead because he's a significantly better defender (including being a better defensive rebounder).

superdave
05-12-2015, 04:08 PM
You're telling me that a guy who attempted a grand total of 8 3-pointers all season (making 2 of them) is a stretch 4? Towns is a fabulous offensive player in the post, but I never saw anything that would tell me he could take the ball on the perimeter, face the D, and hit a jumper/3-pointer. I'm not saying he's incapable of this, but I sure didn't see enough of it to label him a "stretch 4" at this point.

I do agree that there seems to be some consensus that Towns is the #1 ahead of Okafor, but it is close and team needs (as well as workouts and interviews) will play a role in the final decision.

-Jason "FWIW, Okafor averaged 8.5 rebounds per game last year while Towns averaged 6.7... different minutes played and certainly different quality of competition though" Evans

Towns translates as a pick and roll guy who can knock down open jumpers. I am not saying he will shoot a lot of 3s. He could eventually I guess. But that sort of game spreads the floor and is all the rage these days. Okafor's comps are more Cousins, Randolph or Al Jefferson. But I would argue Okafor is a lot more versatile than those guys because of his footwork.

From DraftExpress - http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Karl-Towns-61831/

"Towns grew up as a perimeter oriented power forward who didn't hesitate to fire away from beyond the arc when left open, leading his high school team in 3-pointers made, and hitting 46% of his attempts as a 15-year old on the Dominican Republic U17 team on 5.5 tries per game. He didn't show much of that at Kentucky, only taking eight threes on the year (of which he made two), but his excellent shooting mechanics, combined with his outstanding 82% free throw percentage as a freshman, leads you to believe he'll continue to hone this part of his game in the NBA."

Here's his stats compared to Okafor on the defensive end -

Defensive Rebound % - Towns 22.3% vs Okafor 18.2%
Block % - Towns 11.5% vs Okafor 4.5%
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/jahlil-okafor-1.html
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/karl-anthony-towns-1.html

I think Coach K even said at the beginning of the season that Okafor was not a great rebounder. Here's an interesting article on rebounding and rim protection: http://www.businessinsider.com/why-jahlil-okafor-might-be-drafted-no-1-2015-4

The most coveted big guy in the league today is Davis. I guess Towns is more Davis than Okafor is so the experts love him. But I like this quote from that article - "Towns has better upside and could be a better player, but I’d like to think I can get another Towns before I can get another Okafor."

superdave
05-13-2015, 10:03 AM
Interesting take on who Minny should take in the draft including a lot of advanced metrics on Towns vs Okafor.

http://www.canishoopus.com/2015/5/11/8580951/early-draft-metrics-and-thoughts?_ga=1.84739225.1082045971.1420231273

And another one on Okafor's pros and cons -

http://www.denverstiffs.com/2015/5/10/8576851/denver-nuggets-2015-nba-draft-prospect-jahlil-okafor?_ga=1.199024815.1082045971.1420231273

Des Esseintes
05-13-2015, 10:29 AM
Regarding Quinn Cook, I feel like he could give a team 10 minutes a game of backup point guard duties, playing decent on-ball defense, hitting threes, and doing a little drive and kick. For perhaps some more versed in the NBA than I am (I only really get into it at the end of the regular season and playoffs), what could Quinn not contribute that Will Bynum is currently doing for the Wizards? It's not a big role, but it's an NBA gig.

1. Most players with Will Bynum's college career do not have the career that Bynum has had in the NBA. If a guy like him is getting minutes, you can be certain he has improved *immensely* as a player since college. Muot guys don't improve that much.

2. Bynum is a lot faster than Quinn. Slower guys have trouble getting off shots and defending at the NBA's freak level.

sagegrouse
05-13-2015, 10:44 AM
Interesting take on who Minny should take in the draft including a lot of advanced metrics on Towns vs Okafor.

http://www.canishoopus.com/2015/5/11/8580951/early-draft-metrics-and-thoughts?_ga=1.84739225.1082045971.1420231273

And another one on Okafor's pros and cons -

http://www.denverstiffs.com/2015/5/10/8576851/denver-nuggets-2015-nba-draft-prospect-jahlil-okafor?_ga=1.199024815.1082045971.1420231273

Off-season, off-topic musing: Do people who live in Minneapolis really refer to the city as "Minny?" I'd be surprised. People in San Francisco certainly don't say "Frisco" -- which is a WW II military reference -- or "San Fran." Most say "San Francisco." Similarly, most of the people that say "Philly" are from elsewhere. Locals usually say "Philadelphia" -- at least, in my somewhat limited experience.

We did say "LA" back a while ago when I lived in Los Angeles.

superdave
05-13-2015, 11:02 AM
Off-season, off-topic musing: Do people who live in Minneapolis really refer to the city as "Minny?" I'd be surprised. People in San Francisco certainly don't say "Frisco" -- which is a WW II military reference -- or "San Fran." Most say "San Francisco." Similarly, most of the people that say "Philly" are from elsewhere. Locals usually say "Philadelphia" -- at least, in my somewhat limited experience.

We did say "LA" back a while ago when I lived in Los Angeles.

Wisco/Wiscy for Wisconsin

Or if you're not into that whole brevity thing, North Cakalacky for North Carolina.

sagegrouse
05-13-2015, 11:04 AM
Wisco/Wiscy for Wisconsin

Or if you're not into that whole brevity thing, North Cakalacky for North Carolina.

Yeah, but..... Do the locals really use these terms?

cato
05-13-2015, 11:36 AM
Yeah, but..... Do the locals really use these terms?

I know native North Carolinians who used North Cakalacky. Not many, but a few.

phaedrus
05-13-2015, 11:38 AM
Off-season, off-topic musing: Do people who live in Minneapolis really refer to the city as "Minny?" I'd be surprised. People in San Francisco certainly don't say "Frisco" -- which is a WW II military reference -- or "San Fran." Most say "San Francisco." Similarly, most of the people that say "Philly" are from elsewhere. Locals usually say "Philadelphia" -- at least, in my somewhat limited experience.

We did say "LA" back a while ago when I lived in Los Angeles.

I can tell you that here in Milwaukee, it's Mwaukee.

bob blue devil
05-13-2015, 11:40 AM
...Similarly, most of the people that say "Philly" are from elsewhere. Locals usually say "Philadelphia" -- at least, in my somewhat limited experience..

FWIW, people in and around Philadelphia do regularly refer to it as Philly.

BD80
05-13-2015, 12:18 PM
FWIW, people in and around Philadelphia do regularly refer to it as Philly.

I thought they called it West Jersey?

jimsumner
05-13-2015, 01:22 PM
I know native North Carolinians who used North Cakalacky. Not many, but a few.

I've lived in North Carolina since Truman was president and I've never once heard the state referred to as North Cakalacky.

Maybe I need to get out more. :)

luvdahops
05-13-2015, 02:08 PM
FWIW, people in and around Philadelphia do regularly refer to it as Philly.

..and people in neighboring states often refer to it as the "Philth"

Sometime in the last decade or two, my hometown of Cincinnati came to be regularly referred to as "the 'nati" by residents and non-residents alike

SCMatt33
05-13-2015, 02:19 PM
FWIW, people in and around Philadelphia do regularly refer to it as Philly.

Can confirm. From Philly suburbs, list my location on DBR posts as "Philly."

Not being from near North Carolina, I can't really claim to know much about North Cakalacky, but it always struck me as one of those names that people from Urban/Suburban areas use to reference more rural areas. We have some of those up here too. Growing up, I know my dad's family always talked about the more rural central parts of PA as "Pennsyl-tucky" and my mom's family from northern Delaware often talked about Lower-Slower (or Slower-Lower) Delaware when referencing the more rural southern parts of the state.

Reilly
05-13-2015, 02:51 PM
I've heard it used more referring to South Carolina rather than North ... without the "South", either ... rather, just "Cackalacky" ... used good-naturedly and humorously ... "need to get back to Cackalacky"

On "North Cackalacky": http://blogs.lib.unc.edu/ncm/index.php/2005/09/09/cackalacky/

Reilly
05-13-2015, 02:56 PM
I thought they called it West Jersey?

I know somebody who lives on the east side of West New York, New Jersey.

wilson
05-13-2015, 03:06 PM
NOBODY calls it "Hotlanta."

cato
05-13-2015, 03:31 PM
I've lived in North Carolina since Truman was president and I've never once heard the state referred to as North Cakalacky.

Maybe I need to get out more. :)

FWIW, none of them were born when Truman was president. ;-)

jimsumner
05-13-2015, 03:43 PM
FWIW, none of them were born when Truman was president. ;-)

Most people weren't. :)

superdave
05-13-2015, 04:27 PM
Here's mock drafts from 3 guys over at CBS -

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/draft/mock-draft

Here's where they have the Duke guys -
Okafor - 2nd, 1st, 2nd
Winslow - 5, 3, 11
Jones - 18, 20, 21

That's a really wide range for Justise. Most mocks have him in the 5-8 range.

Olympic Fan
05-13-2015, 05:09 PM
Here's mock drafts from 3 guys over at CBS -

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/draft/mock-draft

Here's where they have the Duke guys -
Okafor - 2nd, 1st, 2nd
Winslow - 5, 3, 11
Jones - 18, 20, 21

That's a really wide range for Justise. Most mocks have him in the 5-8 range.

Such projections are really useless until the lottery drawing (next Tuesday night). Different teams have different needs and obviously different opinions.

Like Jim, I was born during the Truman presidency and I also have never heard "North Cakalacky" -- except fairly recently from a Charlotte-based sports radio show.

The simple abbreviation from all the native North Carolinians I know is "Carolina" ... South Carolina is "South Carolina" ... Carolina is North Carolina (although I understand that those South of the Border -- great tourist trap by the way -- used Carolina to refer to their state.

SCMatt33
05-13-2015, 05:36 PM
So it appears that at one point, the combine measurements were released by the NBA at this link (http://stats.nba.com/draftcombine/#!/anthro/) according to many reporters, but as of this moment, this year's stats no longer appear there. Many people, however, have tweeted or reported on individuals. The most comprehensive link I have found is here (http://www.courier-journal.com/story/sports/college/louisville/2015/05/13/former-louisville-uk-players-get-their-nba-draft-combine-measurements/27234129/) The article is focused on the Kentucky schools, but has Tyus' and Justise's measurements in the "other players" section at the bottom. Nothing on Quinn.

JUSTISE WINSLOW (Duke)

Height with shoes: 6'6 1/2"; Height without shoes: 6'4 1/2"; Weight: 221.8; Standing reach: 8'8 1/2"; Wingspan: 6'10 1/4"; Body fat: 5.3%.

TYUS JONES

Height with shoes: 6'2"; Height without shoes: 6'0 1/4"; Weight: 184.6; Standing reach: 8'1"; Wingspan: 6'5"; Body fat: 6.5%.

Tyus probably will come out looking pretty good with those measurements. He is over the mythical 6'0" mark without shoes and has a pretty solid 6'5" wingspan for a point guard. If teams are worried about his defense against other NBA point guards, it shouldn't be due to size. Justise on the other hand, is more of a mixed bag. His weight, body fat, and wingspan all come out looking very good, but 6'4.5" without shoes will seem pretty small to some teams if they project him as a small forward. Not surprisingly, with a large wingspan, but small height, his standing reach of 8'8.5" is about average for small forwards (at least looking at the small forwards from last years combine)

SCMatt33
05-13-2015, 09:14 PM
The link in my previous post appears to be working again. Here are Quinn's Numbers:

QUINN COOK

Height with shoes: 6'2"; Height without shoes: 6'0 1/4"; Weight: 179.0; Standing reach: 8'0.5"; Wingspan: 6'4"; Body fat: 6.7%.

Before you look, I didn't just copy and paste Tyus' numbers from the last post. They just have really similar body measurements.

Chillduck
05-13-2015, 09:27 PM
As a native Cheesehead, we never called Wisconsin Wiscy or Wisco. We referred to the UW as Bucky.

jacone21
05-14-2015, 01:01 AM
Man, those guys look so much better at 6'0" and 180lbs than I do. I need to hit the weights.

neemizzle
05-14-2015, 03:00 AM
Here's mock drafts from 3 guys over at CBS -

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/draft/mock-draft

Here's where they have the Duke guys -
Okafor - 2nd, 1st, 2nd
Winslow - 5, 3, 11
Jones - 18, 20, 21

That's a really wide range for Justise. Most mocks have him in the 5-8 range.

The places they have Winslow at (Orlando and Philly) are perfect places for him and can use him immediately, no? I'm a Magic fan and would love to see him there. But Philly could come out of this draft a HUGE winner with the picks they have.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
05-14-2015, 06:10 AM
As a native Cheesehead, we never called Wisconsin Wiscy or Wisco. We referred to the UW as Bucky.

I used to be friends with kids from Madison who would reference Wisco. Also, known some folks from Atlanta who never said "Hotlanta" but would sometimes reference ATL.

Maybe it's an ex-pat thing?

Living in Asheville, I hear people say "Ashevegas," but it seems to be more in jest.

Huh, come to think of it, maybe it's one of those appropriated tongue-in-cheek things. I'll be damned if I let you call my town ATL, but those of us from there can use it as an identifying joke.

I heard "Cackalacky" for the first time from a fellow NC resident when I lived in Seattle. Hrmmmmm....

JasonEvans
05-14-2015, 10:36 AM
The places they have Winslow at (Orlando and Philly) are perfect places for him and can use him immediately, no? I'm a Magic fan and would love to see him there. But Philly could come out of this draft a HUGE winner with the picks they have.

If Justise is still on the board at #11, I'll be shocked. The will be NBA GMs who lose their jobs if something like that happens. It would almost be like the time Paul Pierce, projected as a top 5 pick, somehow lasted to #10 in the 1998 draft, making Celtic fans deliriously happy. I can vividly recall the announcers being shocked as team after team passed on Paul.

By the way, the 1998 draft is notable due to the incredible smarts of Don Nelson, who made trades with Milwaukee and Phoenix on draft day. His moves got him Dirk Nowitzki with the #9 pick and a backup PG that Phoenix did not want named Steve Nash. In return, he sent Robert Traylor to Milwaukee and Pat Garrity to Phoenix. I'd say that trade worked out pretty nicely for Nelly and Dallas.

-Jason "Wislow will be off the board well before #11... probably no later than #6 or #7... and no one cares that he is under 6-5 in his bare feet" Evans

superdave
05-14-2015, 11:46 AM
If Justise is still on the board at #11, I'll be shocked. The will be NBA GMs who lose their jobs if something like that happens. It would almost be like the time Paul Pierce, projected as a top 5 pick, somehow lasted to #10 in the 1998 draft, making Celtic fans deliriously happy. I can vividly recall the announcers being shocked as team after team passed on Paul.

By the way, the 1998 draft is notable due to the incredible smarts of Don Nelson, who made trades with Milwaukee and Phoenix on draft day. His moves got him Dirk Nowitzki with the #9 pick and a backup PG that Phoenix did not want named Steve Nash. In return, he sent Robert Traylor to Milwaukee and Pat Garrity to Phoenix. I'd say that trade worked out pretty nicely for Nelly and Dallas.

-Jason "Wislow will be off the board well before #11... probably no later than #6 or #7... and no one cares that he is under 6-5 in his bare feet" Evans

Imagine an Orlando backcourt of 6'4'' Elfrid Payton, 6'4'' Victor Oladipo, 6'9 Tobias Harris and 6'6'' Justise Winslow. That is a defensive nightmare for everyone in the league. Those guys are all long, athletic and even have some bulk.

Of course, they may want to look for a big guy like Myles Turner. But that athletic group above would be fun to watch.

MCFinARL
05-14-2015, 01:09 PM
The link in my previous post appears to be working again. Here are Quinn's Numbers:

QUINN COOK

Height with shoes: 6'2"; Height without shoes: 6'0 1/4"; Weight: 179.0; Standing reach: 8'0.5"; Wingspan: 6'4"; Body fat: 6.7%.

Before you look, I didn't just copy and paste Tyus' numbers from the last post. They just have really similar body measurements.

Yes, that's kind of interesting. I'm a bit surprised to hear that Tyus actually slightly outweighs Quinn. I would have guessed the opposite (having seen neither in person). But maybe it's just Quinn's hair that makes him look a little more solid. :D [serioiusly, maybe Tyus' slightly longer wingspan makes him look proportionately thinner even though he and Quinn are clearly about the same size.]

johnb
05-14-2015, 01:23 PM
The link in my previous post appears to be working again. Here are Quinn's Numbers:

QUINN COOK

Height with shoes: 6'2"; Height without shoes: 6'0 1/4"; Weight: 179.0; Standing reach: 8'0.5"; Wingspan: 6'4"; Body fat: 6.7%.

Before you look, I didn't just copy and paste Tyus' numbers from the last post. They just have really similar body measurements.

I don't think their numbers are all that impressive. I'm that height and weight and also have 67% body fat. And I don't even work out.

dukelifer
05-14-2015, 03:07 PM
I don't think their numbers are all that impressive. I'm that height and weight and also have 67% body fat. And I don't even work out.

67% body fat is impressive

toooskies
05-14-2015, 03:10 PM
Not worried about Justise's height. His play at the PF for Duke this year should resolve any meaningful questions about it.

weezie
05-14-2015, 03:39 PM
67% body fat is impressive


Yes, helps with floating, I imagine.

MCFinARL
05-14-2015, 03:40 PM
Was just watching Quinn in the 5 by 5 drills at the combine (ESPN 2). He made some nice passes but was stuffed pretty badly on his one drive to the basket.

CDu
05-14-2015, 04:11 PM
Yes, helps with floating, I imagine.

Makes scuba diving quite a chore though.

CDu
05-14-2015, 04:47 PM
Looking at the measurements, it looks like Winslow measured very small for his "natural" position in the NBA (presumably SF). He's probably going to need to convince folks he can play a lot of SG at the next level, which means he is probably going to need to show some serious ballhandling chops (moreso than the open court bulldozing sessions he displayed in college). I felt early in the season that his style of play and size/athleticism reminded me of a young Dwyane Wade. Well, he's measured out VERY similarly to Wade (3/4" taller but similarly built with a similar wingspan). Hopefully his game continues to expand the way Wade's did. He's ahead of where Wade was at the same age (Wade made his big jump during college) so there is definitely hope.

I'm sure Winslow will still spend a fair amount of time at SF in the NBA. But unlike in college, he's going to be giving up size to everyone there and the difference in athleticism and skill isn't as great as it is for the typical college PF (the dropoff in size from college PF to NBA SF isn't much; the skill and athleticism difference between NBA SF and college PF is vast). He will be fine as a player, but this probably makes it tough for him to get to the top-5 of the draft. Probably looking at an 8-12 spot.

Turk
05-14-2015, 04:56 PM
FWIW, people in and around Philadelphia do regularly refer to it as Philly.

However, when they do say the full name and they're from the city neighborhoods, it usually sounds something like "Faluffya". These good folks also like to enjoy a fruit-flavored summertime treat pronounced "wooder ice".

Turk
05-14-2015, 04:58 PM
Sometime in the last decade or two, my hometown of Cincinnati came to be regularly referred to as "the 'nati" by residents and non-residents alike

Same thing happened in Pittsburgh; people started referring to "the Burgh". I don't hate it but choose not to partake.

Turk
05-14-2015, 05:05 PM
Imagine an Orlando backcourt of 6'4'' Elfrid Payton, 6'4'' Victor Oladipo, 6'9 Tobias Harris and 6'6'' Justise Winslow. That is a defensive nightmare for everyone in the league. Those guys are all long, athletic and even have some bulk.

Of course, they may want to look for a big guy like Myles Turner. But that athletic group above would be fun to watch.

Fun to watch on defense, and probably on the break, but I'm not so sure about half-court offense and shooting.

Gotta see where the Ping-Pong balls land; love to see Justise as a Sixer. I am a Brett Brown fan, so it could be a good place for Justise even with another year of Tankapalooza up ahead...

Kedsy
05-14-2015, 07:27 PM
Not worried about Justise's height. His play at the PF for Duke this year should resolve any meaningful questions about it.

DeMarcus Nelson played PF at Duke. He wasn't even big enough for SG in the NBA. I think Justise will do fine, but I also think these measurements will cause some to think twice about drafting him too early.

MChambers
05-14-2015, 08:40 PM
DeMarcus Nelson played PF at Duke. He wasn't even big enough for SG in the NBA. I think Justise will do fine, but I also think these measurements will cause some to think twice about drafting him too early.
DeMarcus did not play PF anywhere near as well as Justise did.

Devil77
05-14-2015, 10:02 PM
Smelly Delly destroying Les Boulez.

neemizzle
05-14-2015, 11:51 PM
Imagine an Orlando backcourt of 6'4'' Elfrid Payton, 6'4'' Victor Oladipo, 6'9 Tobias Harris and 6'6'' Justise Winslow. That is a defensive nightmare for everyone in the league. Those guys are all long, athletic and even have some bulk.

Of course, they may want to look for a big guy like Myles Turner. But that athletic group above would be fun to watch.

Don't get me excited. I want this backcourt so badly. I've pulled for the Magic, and they started going downhill once Redick was gone and Dwight Howard left. Haven't been the same since. They need a Winslow type player, though. Orlando is already talented, they're just really young. Payton did really well this year, considering the team he was on.

I'm interested to see the actual Draft Lottery this year. The Cavs lucking up (again) with that #1 pick was crazy. Something tells me it'll happen again, but it'll be some odd team in the running for #1 that no one expects that has like a .7% chance of getting it haha!

Any early assumptions after watching the combine? Meaning, any changes in where we think some of these guys will go?

MCFinARL
05-15-2015, 09:37 AM
Was just watching Quinn in the 5 by 5 drills at the combine (ESPN 2). He made some nice passes but was stuffed pretty badly on his one drive to the basket.

Feel strange commenting on my own post but wanted to update. Overall it seems Quinn got some quietly favorable response to his performance in the 5 by 5 scrimmage yesterday. He started for his team (his backup was Terry Rozier) and finished with 6 points, 4 assists, 2 rebounds, 2 steals. From the part I watched, his assist total could have been well higher if teammates whom he found for open shots had actually made the shots.

This tweet from Max Rappaport, a writer from the Sixers website, describes what I saw:
Quinn Cook of Duke impressing in scrimmage #1. Under control, setting teammates up, and playing like this is a game rather than a showcase.

It's anybody's guess whether NBA executives will see enough of what they are looking for to actually use a draft pick on Quinn, but he seemed clearly to be taking his opportunity to show that he can be effective as a point guard--seeing the court, finding the open man, passing quickly and accurately--and as a mature, team-oriented player.

mr. synellinden
05-15-2015, 02:28 PM
There are a number of All-ACC caliber Duke guys who have been picked in the second round and gone on to contribute in the NBA. Kelly, Singler, Boozer ... I think the keys for Quinn are whether he's athletic enough to get to the rim and finish, can he make NBA 3s, and can he be an effective defender. I think if a team thinks at least two of the answers to those questions are yes, he might get drafted in the second round. Remember - as good of a leader as Coach K HAS EVER HAD. That's high praise and probably will count for a lot when a team is deciding between him and some long shot project.

MCFinARL
05-15-2015, 05:14 PM
There are a number of All-ACC caliber Duke guys who have been picked in the second round and gone on to contribute in the NBA. Kelly, Singler, Boozer ... I think the keys for Quinn are whether he's athletic enough to get to the rim and finish, can he make NBA 3s, and can he be an effective defender. I think if a team thinks at least two of the answers to those questions are yes, he might get drafted in the second round. Remember - as good of a leader as Coach K HAS EVER HAD. That's high praise and probably will count for a lot when a team is deciding between him and some long shot project.

Yes, that can't hurt.

Today, Quinn apparently switched it up a bit scoring 18 to lead all scorers in his game (https://twitter.com/chadfordinsider/status/599319905142448128/photo/1), along with Pat Connaughton, on 50% shooting (including 2 of 4 from NBA 3-point range) and 4-4 foul shooting, with 2 rebounds, an assist and a steal (plus one turnover). Didn't see this game so I can't tell whether Quinn was able to score by driving ever or just had a couple of 2-point jumpers.

Furniture
05-15-2015, 07:55 PM
Yes, that can't hurt.

Today, Quinn apparently switched it up a bit scoring 18 to lead all scorers in his game (https://twitter.com/chadfordinsider/status/599319905142448128/photo/1), along with Pat Connaughton, on 50% shooting (including 2 of 4 from NBA 3-point range) and 4-4 foul shooting, with 2 rebounds, an assist and a steal (plus one turnover). Didn't see this game so I can't tell whether Quinn was able to score by driving ever or just had a couple of 2-point jumpers.

He drove for at one of his baskets and hit clutch FTs at the end. They interviewed Justice during the game and he did his bit by pumping up Quinn. I didn't watch all of the game though.
Apparently Justice and Tyus really impressed in their NBA interviews and I must say Justice spoke very well on TV. One smart fella!!!

tbyers11
05-15-2015, 08:07 PM
He drove for at one of his baskets and hit clutch FTs at the end. They interviewed Justice during the game and he did his bit by pumping up Quinn. I didn't watch all of the game though.
Apparently Justice and Tyus really impressed in their NBA interviews and I must say Justice spoke very well on TV. One smart fella!!!

Edit limit: I think it's 15 minutes after you submit your post.

Thanks for the info on Quinn

MCFinARL
05-16-2015, 09:06 AM
He drove for at one of his baskets and hit clutch FTs at the end. They interviewed Justice during the game and he did his bit by pumping up Quinn. I didn't watch all of the game though.
Apparently Justice and Tyus really impressed in their NBA interviews and I must say Justice spoke very well on TV. One smart fella!!!

Very smart--if only he could spell his own name; he keeps putting a second "s" in it. ;)

Seriously, this is all good to hear. Not that surprised that Justise and Tyus did well in their interviews, since everything we have seen and heard of them suggests they are smart, well spoken, and students of the game--plus both seem to have that perfect balance of confidence and humbleness (humility?) that marks promising, coachable players.

DBFAN
05-18-2015, 10:13 PM
So this is the first pic I have seen of Okafor since he has trimmed up. You could tell at the end of season he was worn down, because as strange as it sounds, the limited practice was killing his conditioning. Not that it was anybodies fault just couldn't practice as much with only 8 guys. But I don't care what they say Okafor is the better player when comparing him to Towns. I think NBA GM's should really consider the lack of time Towns had to play last year. I'm pretty sure Okafor could dominate the last 10 minutes of every game as well if he only had to play 15 mins a game. But any whose here is the pic I just saw. Dude is looking solid
@BR_NBA: VIDEO: Jahlil Okafor plays “NBA Pong” to determine where he will be drafted http://t.co/Ya7FPnS1nd http://t.co/eUCSnSSEgq

Acymetric
05-18-2015, 10:29 PM
I used to be friends with kids from Madison who would reference Wisco. Also, known some folks from Atlanta who never said "Hotlanta" but would sometimes reference ATL.

Maybe it's an ex-pat thing?

Living in Asheville, I hear people say "Ashevegas," but it seems to be more in jest.

Huh, come to think of it, maybe it's one of those appropriated tongue-in-cheek things. I'll be damned if I let you call my town ATL, but those of us from there can use it as an identifying joke.

I heard "Cackalacky" for the first time from a fellow NC resident when I lived in Seattle. Hrmmmmm....

Ugh. Its always in jest, but people do this with basically any city they live in (or more often, moved to). G-vegas can refer to both Greensboro or Greenville. Have also heard it applied to countless other cities and towns along the way. Thankfully I have yet to hear "D-Vegas" yet, so I can remain proud of my hometown and it's nicknames.

I have heard Cackalacky often enough over the years, but wouldn't say it is particularly common at least in the triangle area.

devildeac
05-18-2015, 10:43 PM
Ugh. Its always in jest, but people do this with basically any city they live in (or more often, moved to). G-vegas can refer to both Greensboro or Greenville. Have also heard it applied to countless other cities and towns along the way. Thankfully I have yet to hear "D-Vegas" yet, so I can remain proud of my hometown and it's nicknames.

I have heard Cackalacky often enough over the years, but wouldn't say it is particularly common at least in the triangle area.

Fullsteam Brewing says hi:

5128

yancem
05-18-2015, 11:07 PM
So this is the first pic I have seen of Okafor since he has trimmed up. You could tell at the end of season he was worn down, because as strange as it sounds, the limited practice was killing his conditioning. Not that it was anybodies fault just couldn't practice as much with only 8 guys. But I don't care what they say Okafor is the better player when comparing him to Towns. I think NBA GM's should really consider the lack of time Towns had to play last year. I'm pretty sure Okafor could dominate the last 10 minutes of every game as well if he only had to play 15 mins a game. But any whose here is the pic I just saw. Dude is looking solid
@BR_NBA: VIDEO: Jahlil Okafor plays “NBA Pong” to determine where he will be drafted http://t.co/Ya7FPnS1nd http://t.co/eUCSnSSEgq

Man he looks pretty ripped. I imagine that has to help his explosiveness a good bit. I think that whoever ends up with the first pick will regret not taking Okafor if they decide to take Towns.

dukelifer
05-19-2015, 06:34 AM
So this is the first pic I have seen of Okafor since he has trimmed up. You could tell at the end of season he was worn down, because as strange as it sounds, the limited practice was killing his conditioning. Not that it was anybodies fault just couldn't practice as much with only 8 guys. But I don't care what they say Okafor is the better player when comparing him to Towns. I think NBA GM's should really consider the lack of time Towns had to play last year. I'm pretty sure Okafor could dominate the last 10 minutes of every game as well if he only had to play 15 mins a game. But any whose here is the pic I just saw. Dude is looking solid
@BR_NBA: VIDEO: Jahlil Okafor plays “NBA Pong” to determine where he will be drafted http://t.co/Ya7FPnS1nd http://t.co/eUCSnSSEgq
Now this is the way to do the draft except do not show the team names until after the ball goes in.. A little chance a little skill- would be fun to watch.

Dr. Rosenrosen
05-19-2015, 06:48 AM
So this is the first pic I have seen of Okafor since he has trimmed up. You could tell at the end of season he was worn down, because as strange as it sounds, the limited practice was killing his conditioning. Not that it was anybodies fault just couldn't practice as much with only 8 guys. But I don't care what they say Okafor is the better player when comparing him to Towns. I think NBA GM's should really consider the lack of time Towns had to play last year. I'm pretty sure Okafor could dominate the last 10 minutes of every game as well if he only had to play 15 mins a game. But any whose here is the pic I just saw. Dude is looking solid
@BR_NBA: VIDEO: Jahlil Okafor plays “NBA Pong” to determine where he will be drafted http://t.co/Ya7FPnS1nd http://t.co/eUCSnSSEgq
Just FYI, the reference to limited practice was attributed to his ankle injury. Not the limited number of scholarship athletes on the squad. Not all practice is 5 on 5 scrimmage.

NashvilleDevil
05-19-2015, 09:10 AM
So this is the first pic I have seen of Okafor since he has trimmed up. You could tell at the end of season he was worn down, because as strange as it sounds, the limited practice was killing his conditioning. Not that it was anybodies fault just couldn't practice as much with only 8 guys. But I don't care what they say Okafor is the better player when comparing him to Towns. I think NBA GM's should really consider the lack of time Towns had to play last year. I'm pretty sure Okafor could dominate the last 10 minutes of every game as well if he only had to play 15 mins a game. But any whose here is the pic I just saw. Dude is looking solid
@BR_NBA: VIDEO: Jahlil Okafor plays “NBA Pong” to determine where he will be drafted http://t.co/Ya7FPnS1nd http://t.co/eUCSnSSEgq

I agree that a team taking Towns over Jah is going to regret it long term. Jah was asked to do a lot more this season than Towns. I understand the whole potential thing with Towns but will he realize his potential like Kevin Garnett or will he be another Kwame Brown?

jipops
05-19-2015, 09:28 AM
I agree that a team taking Towns over Jah is going to regret it long term. Jah was asked to do a lot more this season than Towns. I understand the whole potential thing with Towns but will he realize his potential like Kevin Garnett or will he be another Kwame Brown?

Neither. Towns will be an effective low block scorer and defender. But I'm not sure I see a future all-nba level talent, but who knows. I think Jahlil could be more of a wild card. He could be a great dominant offensive force, or he could be a role playing big who just can't defend. At worst, I believe he'll be a bigger version of Boozer (who never could defend either).

superdave
05-19-2015, 09:38 AM
Neither. Towns will be an effective low block scorer and defender. But I'm not sure I see a future all-nba level talent, but who knows. I think Jahlil could be more of a wild card. He could be a great dominant offensive force, or he could be a role playing big who just can't defend. At worst, I believe he'll be a bigger version of Boozer (who never could defend either).

Boozer and Al Jefferson are good comps. Both dominate possessions when they get the ball in the block because they commanded double teams. I suspect because Okafor can put the ball on the floor, he may be more valuable than either of these guys. That will enable him to find shooters in the post and off the dribble. Remember him feeding a cutting Winslow for dunks?

I really like that Okafor has dropped 12lbs and looks ripped. Great sign. If he can knock down 15 footers in workouts for top teams, he may leap over Towns.

I guess it comes down to whether you want a big man who dominates the ball (Okafor) or a big man who fits better into a pick and roll game (Towns). Defense at this point seems to be pushing the choice to Towns. We'll know who is making the pick tonight.

sagegrouse
05-19-2015, 10:12 AM
I agree that a team taking Towns over Jah is going to regret it long term. Jah was asked to do a lot more this season than Towns. I understand the whole potential thing with Towns but will he realize his potential like Kevin Garnett or will he be another Kwame Brown?

As a skilled offensive freshman big man, Jahlil is a once-in-a-generation player. How do you pass him up? Defense will come -- look at his size, footwork and coordination. Heck, like most HSers, he played a 2-3 zone.

Sage
'Has there ever been a freshman big man with that skill level?'

CDu
05-19-2015, 10:17 AM
Boozer and Al Jefferson are good comps. Both dominate possessions when they get the ball in the block because they commanded double teams. I suspect because Okafor can put the ball on the floor, he may be more valuable than either of these guys. That will enable him to find shooters in the post and off the dribble. Remember him feeding a cutting Winslow for dunks?

I really like that Okafor has dropped 12lbs and looks ripped. Great sign. If he can knock down 15 footers in workouts for top teams, he may leap over Towns.

I guess it comes down to whether you want a big man who dominates the ball (Okafor) or a big man who fits better into a pick and roll game (Towns). Defense at this point seems to be pushing the choice to Towns. We'll know who is making the pick tonight.

Yeah, the considerations between the two appear to be as follows:
- Towns has the edge in athleticism, shooting touch, and defense
- Okafor has the big edge in polished post game

If you are a GM, you have to decide whether or not you think it is more likely that Towns expands his offensive game or Okafor gets more athletic and stronger defensively. That is a very tough call, but I completely understand going for Towns over Okafor. He's the better athlete, the better defender, the better rebounder, and the better shooter right now. Okafor is by far the more polished, more versatile post scorer.

The good news for whomever gets the #2 pick is that you are going to get a very solid big man either way.

superdave
05-19-2015, 10:39 AM
Another NBA draft and another year of Philly what the......?

http://www.nj.com/sixers/index.ssf/2015/05/what_are_the_sixers_chances_at_the_no_1_pick_here. html

The Sixers have their own pick, and sit at third with 15.6% chance of winning the #1 pick.

They have the Lakers pick if it is NOT top 5. So if the Lakers fall from their current fourth ping pong ball position to 6, the Sixers get the pick.

They have the Heat's pick which is currently in position #10 but top 10 protected. So if the Heat's pick falls to 11 or worse, the Sixers get it.

Last season, the Sixers were in the 2 spot going into the Draft Lottery and wound up with the #3 pick. So they are due a little luck, right? Riiiiiiiiiiiight.

The Sixers have a 0.28% chance of having the #1, #6 and #11 picks in the draft. If that happens, the other owners may riot which would be kind of fun to see.

Ichabod Drain
05-19-2015, 10:43 AM
Another NBA draft and another year of Philly what the......?

http://www.nj.com/sixers/index.ssf/2015/05/what_are_the_sixers_chances_at_the_no_1_pick_here. html

The Sixers have their own pick, and sit at third with 15.6% chance of winning the #1 pick.

They have the Lakers pick if it is NOT top 5. So if the Lakers fall from their current fourth ping pong ball position to 6, the Sixers get the pick.

They have the Heat's pick which is currently in position #10 but top 10 protected. So if the Heat's pick falls to 11 or worse, the Sixers get it.

Last season, the Sixers were in the 2 spot going into the Draft Lottery and wound up with the #3 pick. So they are due a little luck, right? Riiiiiiiiiiiight.

The Sixers have a 0.28% chance of having the #1, #6 and #11 picks in the draft. If that happens, the other owners may riot which would be kind of fun to see.

I believe they have something like five second round picks as well. It's kind of ridiculous.

flyingdutchdevil
05-19-2015, 10:47 AM
I believe they have something like five second round picks as well. It's kind of ridiculous.

You can get a lot of Kentucky players with all those second round picks ;)

Ichabod Drain
05-19-2015, 10:50 AM
You can get a lot of Kentucky players with all those second round picks ;)

They should definitely go with all Kentucky players. I mean Kentucky was already better than the Sixers last year anyway right?

superdave
05-19-2015, 11:04 AM
I believe they have something like five second round picks as well. It's kind of ridiculous.

http://www.prosportstransactions.com/basketball/DraftTrades/Future/76ers.htm

Six 2nd round picks actually, according to the link above. They almost have to flip some of those into future drafts or take a bunch of Euros and leave them abroad.

cato
05-19-2015, 11:09 AM
Yeah, the considerations between the two appear to be as follows:
- Towns has the edge in athleticism, shooting touch, and defense
- Okafor has the big edge in polished post game

If you are a GM, you have to decide whether or not you think it is more likely that Towns expands his offensive game or Okafor gets more athletic and stronger defensively. That is a very tough call, but I completely understand going for Towns over Okafor. He's the better athlete, the better defender, the better rebounder, and the better shooter right now. Okafor is by far the more polished, more versatile post scorer.

The good news for whomever gets the #2 pick is that you are going to get a very solid big man either way.

One quibble: there are very few athletes in the world that are as big and powerful as Okafor and can move the way he can. He may not jump high, and other people may surpass him in certain athletic skills, but I have trouble rating someone else as a better athlete, unless you are talking about LSU Shaq.

superdave
05-19-2015, 11:23 AM
One quibble: there are very few athletes in the world that are as big and powerful as Okafor and can move the way he can. He may not jump high, and other people may surpass him in certain athletic skills, but I have trouble rating someone else as a better athlete, unless you are talking about LSU Shaq.

But these GM's are looking at the drive and kick trend, like this year's Golden State team, and thinking that Towns fits into that better. The league is becoming guard-dominated and Okafor could slow that down. Of course, Okafor could command a double and open things up for shooters.

I think Okafor's best bet to be take #1 is a GM thinks he is the next Duncan, that whole once-in-a-generation big man idea. Embiid would have gone first overall last year if not for the injury, and he is more in the Okafor mold than the Towns mold. We shall see.

Ichabod Drain
05-19-2015, 11:23 AM
http://www.prosportstransactions.com/basketball/DraftTrades/Future/76ers.htm

Six 2nd round picks actually, according to the link above. They almost have to flip some of those into future drafts or take a bunch of Euros and leave them abroad.

I believe that first pick listed in the second round is the Boston Celtic's, as they are the last column which shows where the pick ended up after trades. I could be mistaken though, these draft trades always get kind of confusing.

cato
05-19-2015, 11:46 AM
But these GM's are looking at the drive and kick trend, like this year's Golden State team, and thinking that Towns fits into that better. The league is becoming guard-dominated and Okafor could slow that down. Of course, Okafor could command a double and open things up for shooters.

I think Okafor's best bet to be take #1 is a GM thinks he is the next Duncan, that whole once-in-a-generation big man idea. Embiid would have gone first overall last year if not for the injury, and he is more in the Okafor mold than the Towns mold. We shall see.

Okay. Does that mean we have to re-write the dictationary?

CDu
05-19-2015, 11:47 AM
One quibble: there are very few athletes in the world that are as big and powerful as Okafor and can move the way he can. He may not jump high, and other people may surpass him in certain athletic skills, but I have trouble rating someone else as a better athlete, unless you are talking about LSU Shaq.

I don't disagree that there are very few athletes in the world as big and powerful as Okafor that can move the way he can. However, those guys are almost all in the NBA. Dwight Howard, DeMarcus Cousins, Blake Griffin, Andre Drummond, Nikola Vucevic, Tarik Black, and Joey Dorsey are NBA guys of similar size/strength but with more athleticism (in the run/jump/quicks sense) than Okafor. Al Jefferson, Carlos Boozer, Nene, Kevin Love, Jared Sullinger, and Jusuf Nurkic are comparable in athleticism and size/strength. Zach Randolph and Nikola Pekovic aren't too too far off of that athletically.

Finding a guy 6'11", 270, with athleticism isn't actually all that rare at the NBA level. Finding a guy 6'11" with great skills is more rare. Okafor's athleticism relative to the average human being is off the charts. His athleticism relative to the average NBA center is, well, kind of average. Where he stands out is in his touch around the basket and in his polished post game. But he isn't noteworthy as an NBA athlete (again, in the run/jump/quicks sense), even for a center.

sagegrouse
05-19-2015, 12:14 PM
I don't disagree that there are very few athletes in the world as big and powerful as Okafor that can move the way he can. However, those guys are almost all in the NBA. Dwight Howard, DeMarcus Cousins, Blake Griffin, Andre Drummond, Nikola Vucevic, Tarik Black, and Joey Dorsey are NBA guys of similar size/strength but with more athleticism (in the run/jump/quicks sense) than Okafor. Al Jefferson, Carlos Boozer, Nene, Kevin Love, Jared Sullinger, and Jusuf Nurkic are comparable in athleticism and size/strength. Zach Randolph and Nikola Pekovic aren't too too far off of that athletically.

Finding a guy 6'11", 270, with athleticism isn't actually all that rare at the NBA level. Finding a guy 6'11" with great skills is more rare. Okafor's athleticism relative to the average human being is off the charts. His athleticism relative to the average NBA center is, well, kind of average. Where he stands out is in his touch around the basket and in his polished post game. But he isn't noteworthy as an NBA athlete (again, in the run/jump/quicks sense), even for a center.

Yabit -- I mean, "yeah, but" -- Okafor is only 19 years old and has size plus all these skills.

cato
05-19-2015, 12:16 PM
I don't disagree that there are very few athletes in the world as big and powerful as Okafor that can move the way he can. However, those guys are almost all in the NBA. Dwight Howard, DeMarcus Cousins, Blake Griffin, Andre Drummond, Nikola Vucevic, Tarik Black, and Joey Dorsey are NBA guys of similar size/strength but with more athleticism (in the run/jump/quicks sense) than Okafor. Al Jefferson, Carlos Boozer, Nene, Kevin Love, Jared Sullinger, and Jusuf Nurkic are comparable in athleticism and size/strength. Zach Randolph and Nikola Pekovic aren't too too far off of that athletically.

Finding a guy 6'11", 270, with athleticism isn't actually all that rare at the NBA level. Finding a guy 6'11" with great skills is more rare. Okafor's athleticism relative to the average human being is off the charts. His athleticism relative to the average NBA center is, well, kind of average. Where he stands out is in his touch around the basket and in his polished post game. But he isn't noteworthy as an NBA athlete (again, in the run/jump/quicks sense), even for a center.

I understand that you meant run/jump/quick. What I am saying is that the coordination to move the way he does is also althetic ability. I think that Okafor is an exceptional athlete, even for the NBA, just not in the jump high, run fast way.

toooskies
05-19-2015, 12:19 PM
But these GM's are looking at the drive and kick trend, like this year's Golden State team, and thinking that Towns fits into that better. The league is becoming guard-dominated and Okafor could slow that down. Of course, Okafor could command a double and open things up for shooters.

I think Okafor's best bet to be take #1 is a GM thinks he is the next Duncan, that whole once-in-a-generation big man idea. Embiid would have gone first overall last year if not for the injury, and he is more in the Okafor mold than the Towns mold. We shall see.

If you decide to follow the trends, you either need to execute the trend better than anyone else, or you need to do something different. Okafor is a big man who can operate with another inside guy and drop good passes, and can pass well out of the double-team. Which means you aren't forced to play the trendy offense when he's on the court, and which means all these teams with defensive schemes designed to stop the trendy offense will struggle adjusting to your offense. This is how Memphis competes year-in and year-out, outperforming expectations despite playing 3+ guys in their starting lineup who don't shoot the 3.

CDu
05-19-2015, 12:34 PM
Yabit -- I mean, "yeah, but" -- Okafor is only 19 years old and has size plus all these skills.

Which is why he will go in the top-2 picks. Only Towns' combination of size, athleticism, defensive acumen, shooting touch, and age are potentially standing in the way of Okafor's once-in-a-generation post-skills going #1.

dukelifer
05-19-2015, 12:55 PM
I don't disagree that there are very few athletes in the world as big and powerful as Okafor that can move the way he can. However, those guys are almost all in the NBA. Dwight Howard, DeMarcus Cousins, Blake Griffin, Andre Drummond, Nikola Vucevic, Tarik Black, and Joey Dorsey are NBA guys of similar size/strength but with more athleticism (in the run/jump/quicks sense) than Okafor. Al Jefferson, Carlos Boozer, Nene, Kevin Love, Jared Sullinger, and Jusuf Nurkic are comparable in athleticism and size/strength. Zach Randolph and Nikola Pekovic aren't too too far off of that athletically.

Finding a guy 6'11", 270, with athleticism isn't actually all that rare at the NBA level. Finding a guy 6'11" with great skills is more rare. Okafor's athleticism relative to the average human being is off the charts. His athleticism relative to the average NBA center is, well, kind of average. Where he stands out is in his touch around the basket and in his polished post game. But he isn't noteworthy as an NBA athlete (again, in the run/jump/quicks sense), even for a center.
As much as I like Okafor as a college player- I agree he will struggle to dominate at the next level unless he becomes an excellent free throw shooter. The other comps in the league can all hit throws at a 75% or better clip. If I were Okafor I would be shooting 1000's of free throws every day. If he can hit throws - he will have an All-star career.

Duvall
05-19-2015, 12:59 PM
As much as I like Okafor as a college player- I agree he will struggle to dominate at the next level unless he becomes an excellent free throw shooter. The other comps in the league can all hit throws at a 75% or better clip. If I were Okafor I would be shooting 1000's of free throws every day. If he can hit throws - he will have an All-star career.

I think the best thing for Okafor's free throw shooting might be for him to spend a year or so playing for the worst team in the league taking zero-leverage free throws. Work on developing good habits in a situation when his team is already down by so much that there's absolutely no pressure whenever he goes to the line.

superdave
05-19-2015, 02:37 PM
Chad Ford chat with discussion of Winslow, Okafor and what he heard from GMs at the combine -

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/51793/nba-insider-chad-ford

CDu
05-19-2015, 03:10 PM
I understand that you meant run/jump/quick. What I am saying is that the coordination to move the way he does is also althetic ability. I think that Okafor is an exceptional athlete, even for the NBA, just not in the jump high, run fast way.

He is certainly coordinated for a big man (even an NBA big man). But I'm not sure that he's necessarily more coordinated than Towns, or Griffin, or Cousins, for example.

The problem here is that all we have as fans to go on are Okafor's performances against undersized opponents for the most part. Okafor played just 5 games this year against teams with NBA size at C: Wisconsin (twice), FSU, Utah, and Gonzaga. In those games, he averaged the following (5 games): 27.6 mpg, 9.8 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 60.5 fg% (23/38), 1.29 pps, 3.4 fpg

Not exactly dominant stuff. When he wasn't able to overpower his opponent or see over his opponent (or both), he was not terribly impressive. This is, I think, a direct reflection of him not being the quickest, most explosive of big men.

Now, Okafor played two other games against teams with borderline center candidates (twice each versus Syracuse and UNC): two against a team with a tall but skinny option (Syracuse, Christmas), and two against a bulky but too-short option (UNC, Meeks). In those four games, Okafor did the following (4 games): 34.5 mpg, 15.5 ppg, 11.0 rpg, 64.4 fg% (29/45), 1.38 pps, 1.5 fpg

Against all other teams, who played guys substantially smaller at center, Okafor averaged the following (29 games): 29.9 mpg, 18.8 ppg, 8.6 rpg, 66.4 fg%, 1.62 pps, 1.9 fpg

So it seems that, when he has either a significant size/strength advantage or a height advantage or both, Okafor is typically able to exploit it. When he can overpower you and he knows it, he can take advantage of that with either straight overpowering of a guy (bullying his way to the rim with the back-down move) or he can set you up with a power move and then spin off of the defender to get to the rim with his finesse. But when matched up against guys of similar size/strength, he was just solid but not great. And note that even then he didn't face anyone who would be even an average defensive C in the NBA.

All this is not to say that Okafor won't be a very good, potentially great NBA player. He will undoubtedly get better with age and experience against bigger guys. Just that (a) a lot of his success to this point has been a result of being a man amongst boys, which will cease to be the case next year, and (b) I think it is well within reason to question whether his athletic limitations (lack of quickness and explosiveness) will result in some of his college offensive dominance not translating. If he is "just" a 15 and 9 type of guy in the NBA (his average numbers in the 9 games against guys who might play C in the pros were 12 and 8 in 30 mpg), that's not exactly screaming definite #1 pick. Especially with the concerns about his defense, where he is currently pretty bad and will be worse for a while at the NBA level (where everyone can really punish you with the pick-and-roll).

Now, I don't personally think Okafor will be "just" a 15 and 9 guy. I certainly think he can be a 20 and 10 type of guy. But I can certainly understand where GMs are coming from in preferring Towns to Okafor. Towns would seem to have the higher ceiling given his physical gifts and already-better shooting touch and defensive skills. Towns doesn't have the variety of moves that Okafor has on offense, but there is at least some question as to whether Okafor's moves will translate against bigger, more physical, and more athletic defenders in the NBA.

I certainly would not begrudge a team for favoring either Towns or Okafor as the #1 pick.

DBFAN
05-19-2015, 07:05 PM
While It wouldn't hurt Okafor to improve on the free throws. There have been plenty of great big men who were not great free throw shooters. Obviously Shaq was horrible, but Tim Duncan had some really bad stretches as well. The last I heard nobody cared about it either.

cato
05-19-2015, 07:21 PM
The problem here is that all we have as fans to go on are Okafor's performances against undersized opponents for the most part. Okafor played just 5 games this year against teams with NBA size at C: Wisconsin (twice), FSU, Utah, and Gonzaga. In those games, he averaged the following (5 games): 27.6 mpg, 9.8 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 60.5 fg% (23/38), 1.29 pps, 3.4 fpg

Not exactly dominant stuff. When he wasn't able to overpower his opponent or see over his opponent (or both), he was not terribly impressive. This is, I think, a direct reflection of him not being the quickest, most explosive of big men.

Now, Okafor played two other games against teams with borderline center candidates (twice each versus Syracuse and UNC): two against a team with a tall but skinny option (Syracuse, Christmas), and two against a bulky but too-short option (UNC, Meeks). In those four games, Okafor did the following (4 games): 34.5 mpg, 15.5 ppg, 11.0 rpg, 64.4 fg% (29/45), 1.38 pps, 1.5 fpg

Against all other teams, who played guys substantially smaller at center, Okafor averaged the following (29 games): 29.9 mpg, 18.8 ppg, 8.6 rpg, 66.4 fg%, 1.62 pps, 1.9 fpg

So it seems that, when he has either a significant size/strength advantage or a height advantage or both, Okafor is typically able to exploit it. When he can overpower you and he knows it, he can take advantage of that with either straight overpowering of a guy (bullying his way to the rim with the back-down move) or he can set you up with a power move and then spin off of the defender to get to the rim with his finesse. But when matched up against guys of similar size/strength, he was just solid but not great. And note that even then he didn't face anyone who would be even an average defensive C in the NBA.

IMO you are placing too much emphasis on the games that Okafor played after hurting his ankle. That certainly seemed to affect his mobility and quickness.

At any rate, there is only one thing we know for sure (barring injury): it will be very interesting to see how this plays out at the highest level of the sport.

Duvall
05-19-2015, 08:36 PM
WAIT. Okafor is turning pro this year? Wow, that really hurts Duke's chance for a repeat.

BD80
05-19-2015, 08:54 PM
Jah to Lakers at 2?

BigZ
05-19-2015, 09:01 PM
Jalen Rose just hinted at something very interesting Will either Towns or Okafor attempt to go number two instead of number 1. Playing in LA for the Lakers would be a lot more inticing than Minn.

dukelifer
05-19-2015, 09:24 PM
While It wouldn't hurt Okafor to improve on the free throws. There have been plenty of great big men who were not great free throw shooters. Obviously Shaq was horrible, but Tim Duncan had some really bad stretches as well. The last I heard nobody cared about it either.

Okafor is not Shaq and Tim Duncan was a 4 year college player who was much better defensive player as a rookie than Okafor is right now. Anyway- Duncan is a career 70% free throw shooter - that might be Okafor's ceiling. Nobody cares about free throws? They do when you miss half of them.

Duvall
05-19-2015, 09:29 PM
Okafor is not Shaq and Tim Duncan was a 4 year college player who was much better defensive player as a rookie than Okafor is right now.

And a much worse offensive player, to be sure.

dukelifer
05-19-2015, 09:35 PM
And a much worse offensive player, to be sure.

Who was worse? Duncan average 21 pts and 15 rebounds as a senior. That is pretty good.

-jk
05-19-2015, 09:36 PM
It'll be all about the ping-pong bounces. (c.f. Jordan).

-jk

Duvall
05-19-2015, 09:38 PM
Who was worse? Duncan average 21 pts and 15 rebounds as a senior. That is pretty good.

Oh - you meant as an NBA rookie, not a college rookie.

We'll never know how good Okafor's defense would have looked against college players in his age-22 year.

BobbyFan
05-19-2015, 10:18 PM
Okafor is not Shaq and Tim Duncan was a 4 year college player who was much better defensive player as a rookie than Okafor is right now.

Duncan as a college freshman was a better defender than Okafor will ever be. And while his offense did significantly improve over his 4 years at Wake, it's worth noting that he didn't start playing basketball until he was in high school, and so his trajectory is difficult to compare to others.

roywhite
05-19-2015, 10:36 PM
Nice to see Jahlil, Justise, and Tyus looking good and hanging out together at the Draft lottery drawing.

Jahlil likely going to Minnesota or the L.A. Lakers, it appears.

subzero02
05-19-2015, 10:50 PM
I'd like to see Jahlil in LA... I think he has the demeanor to benefit from Kobe's alpha dog/bully temperment. I know Kobe will love his ability to pass ;-)

Troublemaker
05-19-2015, 11:17 PM
Chad Ford @chadfordinsider (https://twitter.com/chadfordinsider) · 2h2 hours ago (https://twitter.com/chadfordinsider/status/600826954519080960)

Will be very interesting to see what Wolves do here. They are the one team that NBA folks think could take Okafor over Towns

pfrduke
05-19-2015, 11:18 PM
I'd like to see Jahlil in LA... I think he has the demeanor to benefit from Kobe's alpha dog/bully temperment. I know Kobe will love his ability to pass ;-)

Okafor and Randle (assuming he bounces back ok) is not a bad 4-5 combination to build around. Towns and Randle, on the other hand, are potentially a bit redundant.

elvis14
05-20-2015, 07:55 AM
All along I've been hoping that Okafor would go #1 and Towns would 'drop' to #2. Now that I see the draft order, I really hope that Okafor goes #2 to LA.

MIKESJ73
05-20-2015, 09:24 AM
I know there have been rumors of Minnesota trading their 31st and 36th picks for a late first rounder to possibly take Tyus. I wonder if LA would consider doing the same with their 27th and 34th picks. LA needs a PG and I doubt Tyus is around at 27. It would be really cool if Jah and Tyus end up on the same NBA team. It would be a nice story for them to end up back in Tyus home state, but it would be better if they landed in Showtime together.

flyingdutchdevil
05-20-2015, 09:33 AM
I know there have been rumors of Minnesota trading their 31st and 36th picks for a late first rounder to possibly take Tyus. I wonder if LA would consider doing the same with their 27th and 34th picks. LA needs a PG and I doubt Tyus is around at 27. It would be really cool if Jah and Tyus end up on the same NBA team. It would be a nice story for them to end up back in Tyus home state, but it would be better if they landed in Showtime together.

From everything I've read, these teams need to get 17 and under to get hold of Tyus. Cus the Rockets at 18 are eyeing Tyus, who actually makes sense as the perfect distributor and 3pt shooter for that Rockets team.

However, gross - I really don't like the Rockets, especially with Harden and Dwight as the superstars.

Ichabod Drain
05-20-2015, 09:39 AM
From everything I've read, these teams need to get 17 and under to get hold of Tyus. Cus the Rockets at 18 are eyeing Tyus, who actually makes sense as the perfect distributor and 3pt shooter for that Rockets team.

However, gross - I really don't like the Rockets, especially with Harden and Dwight as the superstars.

Harden, Dwight Howard, and Tyus on the same team... the rockets would set a league record for most FT attempts with just those three guys.

flyingdutchdevil
05-20-2015, 09:48 AM
My fear was that the Knicks would get a top 2 pick. And, fortunately, they didn't!

Okafor will be a Timberwolf (singular version of Timberwolves. This team is oozing with potential) or a Laker (once you have a few pieces, the free agents will come rushing in). Kobe will only be playing "competitively" for another year or so with the Lakers, meaning that Okafor will have his growth stunted by a year. If he were on the Knicks, he'd have his growth stunted for his entire career with that team. God, the Knicks are awful.

Winslow is in an interesting position, too. The Knicks really like Winslow, but they need a PG and there will be one available in either Mudiay or Russell at the 4 pick. Which means Winslow will go to either Orlando (they don't need him as much as they do a PF), Sacramento (not a bad spot, but a dysfunctional franchise again), or Denver (they don't really have much of a future for the next 2-3 years). Ideally, I'd love to see Winslow on Orlando, a clear up-and-coming team, but they don't really need a SG-SF unless Tobias Harris wants out.

And Tyus Jones is in a lucky spot. The 14 (OKC, given Westbrook plays off the ball), 17 (Milwaukee), 18 (Houston), and 21 (Dallas) spots need a PG bad. And Tyus can play with anyone, which makes him a wanted man. Ideally, I'd love to see Jones in Milwaukee or Houston, as those two teams are going to be competitive for the next 3-4 years.

CDu
05-20-2015, 10:07 AM
My fear was that the Knicks would get a top 2 pick. And, fortunately, they didn't!

Somewhere, BillyDat is sending mindbullets at you! (condolences BillyDat... unfortunate luck for the Knicks)

The Lakers certainly got a great break, landing either Okafor or Towns to fill their C position for the future. That is a great turn of events. Okafor/Towns and Randle is a great foundation, and they will have cap space soon to add another piece. Talk about turning your future around in a hurry. It is sort of like how the Bulls lucked into the #1 pick the year Derrick Rose was coming out. Just a game changer.

flyingdutchdevil
05-20-2015, 10:12 AM
Somewhere, BillyDat is sending mindbullets at you! (condolences BillyDat... unfortunate luck for the Knicks)

The Lakers certainly got a great break, landing either Okafor or Towns to fill their C position for the future. That is a great turn of events. Okafor/Towns and Randle is a great foundation, and they will have cap space soon to add another piece. Talk about turning your future around in a hurry. It is sort of like how the Bulls lucked into the #1 pick the year Derrick Rose was coming out. Just a game changer.

But Kobe is still on the Lakers. An injured and aging player is a dangerous and serious threat to development and chemistry. Kobe still thinks he can play at a high level, but doesn't bode well for Randle, Towns/Okafor, Clarkson, and any other quality player on that team (in all fairness, they don't have many quality players).

Li_Duke
05-20-2015, 10:18 AM
I'm happy with Okafor at Minnesota (massive potential on their roster) or the Lakers (they will get good again sooner than later). I also think if he went to the Lakers, Kobe would absolutely love him since Okafor has that alpha dog mentality and the scoring game to back it up. I don't think his growth would be stunted at all there, especially with Kobe knowing the limitations of age. Melo, on the other hand, would see Okafor as a threat, so I'm glad the Knicks fell to fourth.

I'm worried about Winslow. I think his likeliest landing spots are Sacramento (terrible franchise), Denver (while the high altitude would be an advantage for him, the pot may not be), Pistons (I like SVG but not sure he can turn around the culture overnight), or Hornets (terrible franchise). I'm actually hoping he falls to Miami or Indiana, since they both have fantastic management that would ensure he maximizes his potential. And I think his potential is to be a multiple times All-Star.

I've been seeing Houston as the likeliest landing spot for Tyus, but I would prefer to see him in Dallas. Houston already has a PG in Harden (I know he's considered a SG, but he handles the ball so much once it crosses half-court) and with Beverly a better fit for Harden, I worry that Tyus won't be able to show all he can do. In Dallas, however, he instantly steps into the starting PG role. He's got an elite shooting big in Dirk and an elite roll guy in Chandler, it's really a tailor made situation for a PG like him.

superdave
05-20-2015, 10:57 AM
Jalen Rose just hinted at something very interesting Will either Towns or Okafor attempt to go number two instead of number 1. Playing in LA for the Lakers would be a lot more inticing than Minn.

Yes, this could be interesting. Going to LA is a dream. Minnesota has Nikola Pekovic (6'11'', 295) and Gorgiu Dieng (6'11'', 233) at the C position already, so it makes more sense for them to take Towns at the PF position unless you dont have long term plans for either guy.

However, if management really thinks Okafor is the next Duncan then you dont think twice. I guess workouts will tell. Coming from Chicago, Okafor wont be too worried about the cold and is such a well-mannered kid that he will thrive anywhere he goes. I dont know enough about Towns to say. But I'd bet if anyone weasels their way out of Minnesota it would be Towns.

DBFAN
05-20-2015, 11:00 AM
Okafor is not Shaq and Tim Duncan was a 4 year college player who was much better defensive player as a rookie than Okafor is right now. Anyway- Duncan is a career 70% free throw shooter - that might be Okafor's ceiling. Nobody cares about free throws? They do when you miss half of them.

I think I didn't state that correctly or at least didn't get my point across. What I'm saying is that nobody Talks about Duncan's free throws. Over the last 6 or 7 years it has also been apparent that the Spurs would rather him not shoot Free throws at the end of the game. Not really sure if the statement about Okafor not being Shaq is related to free throws or talent, or a comparison of skill sets. I was only comparing them to Free Throws. I also think it's worth noting that there was a period of time where Jah was improving his free throws considerably when he stopped dribbling at the line. Eventually he got worn down and the shots stopped falling, but I fail to see how anyone can predict what his ceiling is with that. And considering that Chambelain was a career 53% from the line we prob shouldn't concern ourselves too much with that stat. There have been a lot of really good to great players who didn't do that well in that area

Troublemaker
05-20-2015, 11:21 AM
I like Gorgui Dieng a lot. The TWolves might try to re-create the Randolph/Gasol pairing in Memphis, with Jah playing the role of dominant post-scorer like Randolph and Dieng being the rim-protector and mid-range shooter like Gasol. Then trade Pekovic for a 3-and-D guy. I think that would be an intriguing possibility.

ETA: Zach Lowe on Dieng and other young big men in the league: http://grantland.com/the-triangle/the-rebirth-of-big-men-a-breakdown-of-old-school-bulk-and-new-era-skill/

Build around Okafor and Dieng as the bigs and Wiggins on the wing and hopefully get Tyus as the PG.

superdave
05-20-2015, 11:25 AM
I like Gorgui Dieng a lot. The TWolves might try to re-create the Randolph/Gasol pairing in Memphis, with Jah playing the role of dominant post-scorer like Randolph and Dieng being the rim-protector and mid-range shooter like Gasol. Then trade Pekovic for a 3-and-D guy. I think that would be an intriguing possibility.

Wolves owe Pekovic almost $36 million over the next three season and he has played only 147 games over the last three seasons. That dampens his trade value a bit. I would try to deal him before the draft for an additional pick.

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/minnesota.htm

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/3453/nikola-pekovic

flyingdutchdevil
05-20-2015, 11:42 AM
I like Gorgui Dieng a lot. The TWolves might try to re-create the Randolph/Gasol pairing in Memphis, with Jah playing the role of dominant post-scorer like Randolph and Dieng being the rim-protector and mid-range shooter like Gasol. Then trade Pekovic for a 3-and-D guy. I think that would be an intriguing possibility.

ETA: Zach Lowe on Dieng and other young big men in the league: http://grantland.com/the-triangle/the-rebirth-of-big-men-a-breakdown-of-old-school-bulk-and-new-era-skill/

Build around Okafor and Dieng as the bigs and Wiggins on the wing and hopefully get Tyus as the PG.

Looks nice on paper. But Minny often looks nice on paper. They just can't put it all together.

Also, not a fan of Tyus on a young team. He needs a mature team to show his real value. That's why I love Tyus on any of the Texas teams. Just makes more sense.

flyingdutchdevil
05-20-2015, 11:46 AM
Wolves owe Pekovic almost $36 million over the next three season and he has played only 147 games over the last three seasons. That dampens his trade value a bit. I would try to deal him before the draft for an additional pick.

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/minnesota.htm

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/3453/nikola-pekovic

Yeah. Chad Ford stating that every team other than Minny has Towns as their number 1. Given that Towns is an NBA PF and Okafor an NBA C, doesn't it just make sense to have Towns go to Minny (they desperately need a PF) and Okafor to the Lakers (they need every position other than the 4). Minny will reconsider, I'm sure. Dieng has the potential to be a great defensive player, and he can only play the 5. Towns and Dieng would give Minny one of the best defensive front courts in the country in a few years. Couple that with Wiggins, and that is a nasty defensive team already.

nmduke2001
05-20-2015, 11:53 AM
I like Gorgui Dieng a lot. The TWolves might try to re-create the Randolph/Gasol pairing in Memphis, with Jah playing the role of dominant post-scorer like Randolph and Dieng being the rim-protector and mid-range shooter like Gasol. Then trade Pekovic for a 3-and-D guy. I think that would be an intriguing possibility.

ETA: Zach Lowe on Dieng and other young big men in the league: http://grantland.com/the-triangle/the-rebirth-of-big-men-a-breakdown-of-old-school-bulk-and-new-era-skill/

Build around Okafor and Dieng as the bigs and Wiggins on the wing and hopefully get Tyus as the PG.

Rubio just signed a 4 year extension and is only 24 years old. I'm pretty sure they see Rubio as their PG.

superdave
05-20-2015, 12:56 PM
Rubio just signed a 4 year extension and is only 24 years old. I'm pretty sure they see Rubio as their PG.

There are rumours that Ricky wants out of Minny.

http://www.sportando.com/en/usa/nba/161461/ricky-rubio-s-entourage-is-reportedly-pushing-for-a-trade.html
http://dunkingwithwolves.com/2015/05/20/ricky-rubio-rumors-a-whole-lot-of-nothing/

Also, he cannot shoot the 3 which is becoming more essential in the NBA. Check out the regular season 3-pointers made list and see the correlation with playoff success: http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/team/_/stat/offense-per-game/sort/avgThreePointFieldGoalsMade/seasontype/2

Rubio cannot play defense either. Unless he stops getting injured and gets better fast, he is a recipe for mediocrity. I'd rather have a 3 and D guy like Patrick Beverley for a few million than Rubio for $13 million. There's a reason players consider not working out for Minnesota.....it's personnel hell.

flyingdutchdevil
05-20-2015, 01:03 PM
There are rumours that Ricky wants out of Minny.

http://www.sportando.com/en/usa/nba/161461/ricky-rubio-s-entourage-is-reportedly-pushing-for-a-trade.html
http://dunkingwithwolves.com/2015/05/20/ricky-rubio-rumors-a-whole-lot-of-nothing/

Also, he cannot shoot the 3 which is becoming more essential in the NBA. Check out the regular season 3-pointers made list and see the correlation with playoff success: http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/team/_/stat/offense-per-game/sort/avgThreePointFieldGoalsMade/seasontype/2

Rubio cannot play defense either. Unless he stops getting injured and gets better fast, he is a recipe for mediocrity. I'd rather have a 3 and D guy like Patrick Beverley for a few million than Rubio for $13 million. There's a reason players consider not working out for Minnesota.....it's personnel hell.

But how important is defense when you have Dieng, Wiggins, and Towns on the floor (assuming Towns is taken first)? Rubio is a very good PG. Maybe not elite, but he already one of the best passers in the NBA at 24 years old. Also, his D isn't that bad: http://grantland.com/features/the-young-nba-players-looking-make-leap-greatness/. That's from Zach Lowe, one of the best NBA analysts.

Rubio is a keeper, IMO. Patrick Beverley would be nice, but who do you have as the distributor? None of Wiggins, Zach Lavine, Shabazz, or Gary Neal is that good at distributing.

superdave
05-20-2015, 01:11 PM
But how important is defense when you have Dieng, Wiggins, and Towns on the floor (assuming Towns is taken first)? Rubio is a very good PG. Maybe not elite, but he already one of the best passers in the NBA at 24 years old. Also, his D isn't that bad: http://grantland.com/features/the-young-nba-players-looking-make-leap-greatness/. That's from Zach Lowe, one of the best NBA analysts.

Rubio is a keeper, IMO. Patrick Beverley would be nice, but who do you have as the distributor? None of Wiggins, Zach Lavine, Shabazz, or Gary Neal is that good at distributing.

Rubio could run the pick and roll really well with Towns and Wiggins. He also runs a great break for them. But he cannot shoot which is almost essential in the NBA at the 1 spot. He's also fragile, having played 202/328 possible games in four seasons.

There's an opportunity cost in giving that guy $55 million when you could find his equivalent for $10 million over the same period. It makes bringing in a veteran leader much tougher and re-signing your young guys much tougher. Allegedly the Wolves re-signed Rubio to that deal knowing other teams would take him if they ever need to unload him. We shall see.

Billy Dat
05-20-2015, 02:23 PM
Somewhere, BillyDat is sending mindbullets at you! (condolences BillyDat... unfortunate luck for the Knicks)

The Lakers certainly got a great break, landing either Okafor or Towns to fill their C position for the future. That is a great turn of events. Okafor/Towns and Randle is a great foundation, and they will have cap space soon to add another piece. Talk about turning your future around in a hurry. It is sort of like how the Bulls lucked into the #1 pick the year Derrick Rose was coming out. Just a game changer.

Now it's time for me to tell you about Young Nastyman,
archrival and nemesis of Wonderboy, with powers comparable to Wonderboy.
What powers you ask? I dunno how 'bout the power of flight?
That do anything for ya? That's levitation, holmes.
How 'bout the power to kill a yak from 200 yards away...
with mind bullets! That's telekinesis, Kyle.
How 'bout the power to move you?

-Tenacious D (what I was hoping for from KA Towns)

While I appreciate the invocation of mindbullets, I would never attack flyingdutch with mindbullets, he's been too generous over the years...sad fact is that the appearance of the Knicks logo, which I saw before the name was read, prompted an "Ugh!" but then just a resigned sigh. The draft is pretty deep at the top, but as you (CDu) and I have e-discussed, I have zero faith in the Knicks brass to do the right thing - which to me is make a good pick and try and build a core of young talent that, along with Melo, might lure some 1b level to second tier free agents and help us make a run for the playoffs. The Knicks have no picks next year. The Knicks were the only team - the only team - to drop in yesterday's lottery.

Aside from the front office, I am really worried about Derek Fisher. This year may have ruined him. Do we think guys want to come and play for him? Who knows.

Having suffered through bad front offices for years, I am a bit wary of placing too much importance on draft pick position. I recognize that it's usually better to pick as high as you can, but I also reconize that in draft after draft, trade after trade and years of offseason free agent signing activity, the best front offices do well, and the bad ones screw things up, and the gap between the good and the bad is enormous.

With all that said, I want them to keep the pick and hopefully bring in someone who justifies being the 4th pick, whomever that is. We have need everywhere!

For what it's worth, I was not hip to the fact that if the balls had fallen one way, the Sixers would have walked away with the 1st, 6th (from Lakers) and 11th (from Miami). There was a OneSixEleven hashtag going, per Zach Lowe who wrote a really entertaining article about the lottery as one of the 10 media members in the small drawing room:
http://grantland.com/the-triangle/behind-the-scenes-of-the-nba-draft-lottery/

tux
05-20-2015, 03:11 PM
Since neither decided to attend the combine, it was interesting to see the two standing next to one another last night. Maybe I'm misremembering, but I think Okafor was listed in college at 6'11" and Towns at 7'0". Not sure what kind of shoes they were wearing, but Okafor looked to be a bit taller than Towns.

...

I'd rather see Okafor (and Winslow) in a better market than Minnesota or Sacramento, to be honest. I'm not really a fan of the Lakers, Sixers, or Knicks, but see those spots as preferable to the other two. (Even though the Sixers and Knicks have been embarrassingly bad, it only takes a few "right" moves for one of those marquee teams to be really good again.)

And with conventional wisdom saying that the talent level starts to drop after the top 6 guys, it will be very interesting to see what moves (trades) happen leading up to the draft.

sagegrouse
05-20-2015, 03:19 PM
As much as I like Okafor as a college player- I agree he will struggle to dominate at the next level unless he becomes an excellent free throw shooter. The other comps in the league can all hit throws at a 75% or better clip. If I were Okafor I would be shooting 1000's of free throws every day. If he can hit throws - he will have an All-star career.


Since neither decided to attend the combine, it was interesting to see the two standing next to one another last night. Maybe I'm misremembering, but I think Okafor was listed in college at 6'11" and Towns at 7'0". Not sure what kind of shoes they were wearing, but Okafor looked to be a bit taller than Towns.

...

I'd rather see Okafor (and Winslow) in a better market than Minnesota or Sacramento, to be honest. I'm not really a fan of the Lakers, Sixers, or Knicks, but see those spots as preferable to the other two. (Even though the Sixers and Knicks have been embarrassingly bad, it only takes a few "right" moves for one of those marquee teams to be really good again.)

And with conventional wisdom saying that the talent level starts to drop after the top 6 guys, it will be very interesting to see what moves (trades) happen leading up to the draft.

I'd like to see our lads on TV. Time zone is not a big issue for me, but I don't see Minneapolis and Sacramento likely to be featured on ESPN or TNT.

superdave
05-20-2015, 04:24 PM
The Knicks have Melo, who turns 31 next week, on a super duper mega max deal through the 2019 season. He will make $22.9 next season, then $24.6, $26.2 and $27.9. That a lot of cap space to take up.

So they either win now by trading the #4 pick or they trade Melo to a contender, right?

Trade the pick pros -
Mudiay, Russell or Winslow is not enough to get the Knicks into the playoffs
The Knicks need bodies, not rookies: http://hoopshype.com/salaries/new_york.htm

Trade the pick cons -
Any chance the Knicks dont screw up a trade? Is Phil fully engaged and capable?
Building through the Draft has worked for a lot of teams

Trade Melo pros -
Superstar in his prime - uuuuge trade value
Clear the cap, go young and have a rebuilding plan you can stick to. Look at how Kobe's salary has hampered the Lakers rebuild.
You can always lure a superstar to NYC, especially when the young core of a team is in place

Trade Melo cons -
No one ever gets full value for a superstar - see Barkley for Hornacek, Perry, Lang
Melo makes you relevant and you have cap space for a top FA

I personally ship Melo for prospects and picks, tank again next year and get a young core in place.

dukelifer
05-20-2015, 05:11 PM
I think I didn't state that correctly or at least didn't get my point across. What I'm saying is that nobody Talks about Duncan's free throws. Over the last 6 or 7 years it has also been apparent that the Spurs would rather him not shoot Free throws at the end of the game. Not really sure if the statement about Okafor not being Shaq is related to free throws or talent, or a comparison of skill sets. I was only comparing them to Free Throws. I also think it's worth noting that there was a period of time where Jah was improving his free throws considerably when he stopped dribbling at the line. Eventually he got worn down and the shots stopped falling, but I fail to see how anyone can predict what his ceiling is with that. And considering that Chambelain was a career 53% from the line we prob shouldn't concern ourselves too much with that stat. There have been a lot of really good to great players who didn't do that well in that area

I am not sure there are a lot of really good players who are poor free throw shooters. Most of the best players were really good. Chamberlain and Shaq are physical outliers who clearly could dominate others because of their size. Okafor is not that size or is he as bouncy as DeAndre Jordan or Howard. Ewing is a comp- maybe - but he also shot 74% for his career. Now I agree that there are more great players who were not clutch free throw shooters- that is a different animal. Okafor can certainly get better but he will need to put in the work. Something is inconsistent in his mechanics. If he gets it fixed- he will get a bunch of his points on the line.

COYS
05-20-2015, 05:18 PM
I personally ship Melo for prospects and picks, tank again next year and get a young core in place.

This makes the most sense to me. The Knicks with Melo remind of the Hawks with Joe Johnson . . . a guy signed to a max deal but who may or may not be a max player. In the case of Johnson, he clearly wasn't a max-level player (I remember wanting to cry when I realized that with Lebron, Bosh, and Wade taking a little less than the max in the summer of 2010, the Hawks made Joe Johnson the highest paid player in the league for a short while). The surrounding roster with Josh Smith, Horford, Teague, etc. was much better and good enough to make the Hawks a second round team. However, with all the money invested in Johnson, there was no way to keep the young talent longterm and add the necessary pieces to make the Hawks a contender. For the Knicks, Melo is a better player than Johnson, but there is far, far less to surround Melo than what the Hawks had. However, with Melo in his 30's, it is debatable whether or not he is worth max money, especially on a team with so many holes to fill. The Hawks offloaded Johnson and got nothing of significance in return . . . except for cap space. Since then, the Hawks have spent wisely, adding players that complement each other and the new management's system. Now the Hawks have a solid foundation AND good cap flexibility from year to year. The Knicks would be wise to recognize it is EXTREMELY unlikely that they can add enough pieces to become a true contender anytime before Melo exits his prime (which could happen at any moment in his early 30's). Gaining cap space and maybe picks would be quite valuable in the rebuilding process. And, as you say, a solid and young foundation would be all one would need to attract a big time free agent to NYC.

Then again, the Knicks front office is the messiest of messes. I doubt the Zen Master can clean it up all by himself. So, sadly, I think Knicks fans are probably stuck with a few more years of Melo plus other ill-fitting pieces that the front office likes for the strangest of reasons. The only hope the Knicks have is that the East is just sooooooo bad that they might be able to scrap together a team that make a playoff run. Still, they will almost certainly meet their match in the Eastern Finals or definitely against whichever team makes it out of the West.

tux
05-20-2015, 05:38 PM
This makes the most sense to me. The Knicks with Melo remind of the Hawks with Joe Johnson . . . a guy signed to a max deal but who may or may not be a max player. In the case of Johnson, he clearly wasn't a max-level player (I remember wanting to cry when I realized that with Lebron, Bosh, and Wade taking a little less than the max in the summer of 2010, the Hawks made Joe Johnson the highest paid player in the league for a short while). The surrounding roster with Josh Smith, Horford, Teague, etc. was much better and good enough to make the Hawks a second round team. However, with all the money invested in Johnson, there was no way to keep the young talent longterm and add the necessary pieces to make the Hawks a contender. For the Knicks, Melo is a better player than Johnson, but there is far, far less to surround Melo than what the Hawks had. However, with Melo in his 30's, it is debatable whether or not he is worth max money, especially on a team with so many holes to fill. The Hawks offloaded Johnson and got nothing of significance in return . . . except for cap space. Since then, the Hawks have spent wisely, adding players that complement each other and the new management's system. Now the Hawks have a solid foundation AND good cap flexibility from year to year. The Knicks would be wise to recognize it is EXTREMELY unlikely that they can add enough pieces to become a true contender anytime before Melo exits his prime (which could happen at any moment in his early 30's). Gaining cap space and maybe picks would be quite valuable in the rebuilding process. And, as you say, a solid and young foundation would be all one would need to attract a big time free agent to NYC.

Then again, the Knicks front office is the messiest of messes. I doubt the Zen Master can clean it up all by himself. So, sadly, I think Knicks fans are probably stuck with a few more years of Melo plus other ill-fitting pieces that the front office likes for the strangest of reasons. The only hope the Knicks have is that the East is just sooooooo bad that they might be able to scrap together a team that make a playoff run. Still, they will almost certainly meet their match in the Eastern Finals or definitely against whichever team makes it out of the West.

Thinking about the Knicks' situation gives me a headache. As a fan with no natural NBA team to follow, I think the league in general needs relevant teams in LA, NY, and Chicago.

I'm trying to think who would really want Melo and his max contract... (still thinking)

I guess the Lakers and Bulls courted Melo last summer... Would the Lakers take Melo for the #2 pick? (My guess is "No")

Indoor66
05-20-2015, 05:40 PM
Thinking about the Knicks' situation gives me a headache. As a fan with no natural NBA team to follow, I think the league in general needs relevant teams in LA, NY, and Chicago.

I'm trying to think who would really want Melo and his max contract... (still thinking)

I guess the Lakers and Bulls courted Melo last summer... Would the Lakers take Melo for the #2 pick? (My guess is "No")

Melo is last weeks news.

COYS
05-20-2015, 05:44 PM
Thinking about the Knicks' situation gives me a headache. As a fan with no natural NBA team to follow, I think the league in general needs relevant teams in LA, NY, and Chicago.

I'm trying to think who would really want Melo and his max contract... (still thinking)

I guess the Lakers and Bulls courted Melo last summer... Would the Lakers take Melo for the #2 pick? (My guess is "No")

You make a good point. The Nets were a PERFECT landing spot for the Hawks to offload Johnson because the ownership wanted the newly Brooklyn-based team to be instantly competitive even if it lowered their ceiling for the long term. I'm not sure who would be willing to do that to take on Melo's contract. The Lakers would do it, I think, except there's no way they give up Towns or Okafor at number 2 for a 31 year old Melo . . . It seems like the teams that have the assets to do that deal would likely balk at giving up those assets for late-prime Melo while the teams that would happily take Melo on lack the assets to acquire him. On the other hand, if the Knicks really do just want cap relief, it's possible they could unload Melo to a team like the Lakers for expiring contracts (I don't know who on the Lakers would fit that description). It's not like the Lakers haven't acquired a franchise caliber player for expiring deals before. The Pau Gasol trade with the Grizzlies in the middle of the last decade was a revelation to me at the value of expiring contracts and cap relief.

Billy Dat
05-20-2015, 06:16 PM
Then again, the Knicks front office is the messiest of messes. I doubt the Zen Master can clean it up all by himself. So, sadly, I think Knicks fans are probably stuck with a few more years of Melo plus other ill-fitting pieces that the front office likes for the strangest of reasons. The only hope the Knicks have is that the East is just sooooooo bad that they might be able to scrap together a team that make a playoff run. Still, they will almost certainly meet their match in the Eastern Finals or definitely against whichever team makes it out of the West.

It's not the front office, it is the owner, James Dolan, the king of the silver spoons with Jimmy Buss riding shotgun on that nepotism deathmobile.

While Phil is unproven as a team architect , and the returns-to-date are pretty bad, Dolan is known to meddle to an infuriating degree. Aside from pride, which is a powerful motivator, Phil has little incentive to be great as Dolan is paying him an ungodly salary and he still has his job after the team suffered its worst season ever - EVER.

I'd be shocked if Dolan let Phil trade Melo. Dolan forced Donnie Walsh to acquire Melo and give away the farm in the process. He is already past his prime, the slope leads downward. I am not so worried about the cap because the cap is about to jump dramatically. The Knicks have plenty of money but the desire to "win now" is sure to result in some of the same kind of hasty ten-cents-on-the-dollar deals that we just had to tank to get out from under. Aside from Melo and our young guys, no one else is signed long term, but we are sure to add some of the "ill fitting pieces" you speak of.

I hope for better but expect the worst.

-bdbd
05-20-2015, 06:34 PM
http://sportswire.usatoday.com/2015/05/20/2015-nba-mock-draft-8-0-minnesota-timberwolves-lottery-emanuel-mudiay-karl-anthony-towns-new-york-knicks-jahlil-okafor-frank-kaminsky-los-angeles-lakers-sam-dekker-boston-celtics-2/

FWIW, the new USAToday mock drat has Towns to Minn., Jah to LA (though they say it might not be a good fir, and they may look at a certain OSU SG), Justise to the Magic and T. Jones to Chicago (with Houston taking the Notre Dame PG just before them).

I'd be pretty happy if our "big three" landed in markets like LA, Orlando and Chicago!!

NashvilleDevil
05-20-2015, 08:57 PM
Did anyone watch DeAngelo Russell this last season? Is he worth the hype they are laying on him or is he a better version of Evan Turner?

CDu
05-20-2015, 09:06 PM
Did anyone watch DeAngelo Russell this last season? Is he worth the hype they are laying on him or is he a better version of Evan Turner?

It remains to be seen if he is worth the hype, but he is quite different from Turner. Better ballhandler, better passer, smaller, but more athletic. I think he is better than Turner. Whether that translates to a substantially better NBA game remains to be seen.

BobbyFan
05-20-2015, 09:48 PM
Okafor and Randle (assuming he bounces back ok) is not a bad 4-5 combination to build around. Towns and Randle, on the other hand, are potentially a bit redundant.

Either combination would be somewhat redundant on offense, but Okafor/Randle could get abused defensively. That said, I don't think Randle is enough of a given in terms of what he'll amount to, that the Lakers should be worried about their pick would fit with him.


I'm happy with Okafor at Minnesota (massive potential on their roster) or the Lakers (they will get good again sooner than later). I also think if he went to the Lakers, Kobe would absolutely love him since Okafor has that alpha dog mentality and the scoring game to back it up. I don't think his growth would be stunted at all there, especially with Kobe knowing the limitations of age. Melo, on the other hand, would see Okafor as a threat, so I'm glad the Knicks fell to fourth

I'm not following the distinction between Kobe and Melo here. I don't particularly want to see Okafor with either one, though Kobe would probably be the lesser evil given that he is closer to the end of his career.


What I'm saying is that nobody Talks about Duncan's free throws. Over the last 6 or 7 years it has also been apparent that the Spurs would rather him not shoot Free throws at the end of the game. Not really sure if the statement about Okafor not being Shaq is related to free throws or talent, or a comparison of skill sets. I was only comparing them to Free Throws. I also think it's worth noting that there was a period of time where Jah was improving his free throws considerably when he stopped dribbling at the line. Eventually he got worn down and the shots stopped falling, but I fail to see how anyone can predict what his ceiling is with that. And considering that Chambelain was a career 53% from the line we prob shouldn't concern ourselves too much with that stat. There have been a lot of really good to great players who didn't do that well in that area

If Chamberlain or Shaq had shot free throws at 75%, either one would have been considered the greatest player of all time. Free throw shooting is significant.

Newton_14
05-20-2015, 10:30 PM
I don't disagree that there are very few athletes in the world as big and powerful as Okafor that can move the way he can. However, those guys are almost all in the NBA. Dwight Howard, DeMarcus Cousins, Blake Griffin, Andre Drummond, Nikola Vucevic, Tarik Black, and Joey Dorsey are NBA guys of similar size/strength but with more athleticism (in the run/jump/quicks sense) than Okafor. Al Jefferson, Carlos Boozer, Nene, Kevin Love, Jared Sullinger, and Jusuf Nurkic are comparable in athleticism and size/strength. Zach Randolph and Nikola Pekovic aren't too too far off of that athletically.

Finding a guy 6'11", 270, with athleticism isn't actually all that rare at the NBA level. Finding a guy 6'11" with great skills is more rare. Okafor's athleticism relative to the average human being is off the charts. His athleticism relative to the average NBA center is, well, kind of average. Where he stands out is in his touch around the basket and in his polished post game. But he isn't noteworthy as an NBA athlete (again, in the run/jump/quicks sense), even for a center. Agree but I think a lot of people (not you) are forgetting the many wow moments Okafor gave us this season, including the ND game you and I took in together (Thanks Bill!!). For those of us that watched every single game in full, we know Okafor's post game, and quickness, yes quickness, is off the charts good. There were times where he made his post moves so quickly he was scoring before the defender had even established position. He is both cat quick, and uber graceful. That combined with the great touch around the rim is what makes him so special. I also feel he is going to quickly show the ability to make mid-range jumpers a high percentage. He uses the glass really well with those shots also.

The one weakness I see in his post game is no left hand. He is going to have to develop that. Every single time he turned over his right shoulder he put the ball right in front of the defender attempting to score on that move with his right hand. Kamisky stripped him easily on one of those moves in the title game. He is going to have to develop a left hand jumphook as using the right hand there will result in getting it stuffed right back in his face.

The guy is a special player. I don't think I could bring myself to selecting any kid above him with that Number 1 Pick.

cato
05-21-2015, 12:53 AM
Thinking about the Knicks' situation gives me a headache. As a fan with no natural NBA team to follow, I think the league in general needs relevant teams in LA, NY, and Chicago.

Why? I think the NBA is more enjoyable than ever, and am perfectly fine with teams like the Spurs, GS, Miami, Cleveland, Houston, Dallas, OKC driving the headlines.

BD80
05-21-2015, 01:20 AM
The Knicks have Melo, who turns 31 next week, on a super duper mega max deal through the 2019 season. He will make $22.9 next season, then $24.6, $26.2 and $27.9. That a lot of cap space to take up. ...

He might be a bargain when the new CBA is reached - effective after next season? That is the reason LeBron signed a short deal.

weezie
05-21-2015, 01:27 AM
Agree but I think a lot of people (not you) are forgetting the many wow moments Okafor gave us this season....

I'm again reminded of The Statue Of Liberty play against gonzaga, that was a humdinger!

djp10
05-21-2015, 05:07 AM
I'm not following the distinction between Kobe and Melo here. I don't particularly want to see Okafor with either one, though Kobe would probably be the lesser evil given that he is closer to the end of his career.
Big time SoCal Duke/Laker fan here, so my take comes w/ a grain of salt. I think the distinction is that he's closer to the end. He's more apt to want to leave a positive legacy at this point, and that could translate into helping develop Okafor, Randle, and/or Clarkson; the last of whom seems like a very hard worker per interviews, articles, etc. (I haven't heard too much about Randle's work ethic while he's been injured, e.g., working on off-hand, but it does sound like he's just now getting in really good shape as he's healing).

Yes, Kobe will shoot a lot, but (a) he can still make them and (b) knows he can't do it all. IMO it actually seems like he's often frustrated on the court because the team's best offensive option is him taking a difficult shot -- we all know you can't win like that. He wants a 6th ring no matter how unlikely; and if there's any chance at all (read: make the playoffs), I believe he's not gonna take too many/bad shots. And yes, he's a dick, but he's basically (successfully) re-branded his image as one. He can at least show them how to be that MF'er on the team that wants to kill the opposition, if any of them choose (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbsmMnAKeOI) to be that type of talent, e.g., Westbrook, JWill (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENo3spJaJa4&t=1m6s) (sigh), CP3 -- I was in the student section and have a vivid memory of CP3 talking so much trash at this game (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLWWedoI0Lg&t=5m28s); he scored 37 in a loss :)

That all being said, I'm not sure what you get with Melo.

Dr. Rosenrosen
05-21-2015, 06:40 AM
Regarding front page link to article about Okafor and Twolves... Has he or his agent actually said anything that would lead people to believe he doesn't want to play for MN? It appeared to be one writer speculating and another adopting that speculation and spinning a headline that implies Oak may be less than a "team player" about the situation - at least in comparison to Towns. If he said something, that is one thing. But I hate when pure speculation is regurgitated as reality or fact. Journalism... sheesh.

tux
05-21-2015, 08:05 AM
Why? I think the NBA is more enjoyable than ever, and am perfectly fine with teams like the Spurs, GS, Miami, Cleveland, Houston, Dallas, OKC driving the headlines.

I just said "relevant" --- those teams don't have to win the championship every year, but I think it's probably good for the NBA to have competitive teams operating in the largest media markets. I also enjoy watching those other teams you list...

tux
05-21-2015, 08:09 AM
Regarding front page link to article about Okafor and Twolves... Has he or his agent actually said anything that would lead people to believe he doesn't want to play for MN? It appeared to be one writer speculating and another adopting that speculation and spinning a headline that implies Oak may be less than a "team player" about the situation - at least in comparison to Towns. If he said something, that is one thing. But I hate when pure speculation is regurgitated as reality or fact. Journalism... sheesh.

Yeah. Bleacher Report, Fanside, etc. For all we know, the writer read a post on a message board and turned that into a "rumor"...

Step 1: Read internet message board.
Step 2: Write "Some people say that Okafor may not want to play in Minnesota."
Step 3: Write some filler and submit

Skitzle
05-21-2015, 08:20 AM
Yeah. Bleacher Report, Fanside, etc. For all we know, the writer read a post on a message board and turned that into a "rumor"...

Step 1: Read internet message board.
Step 2: Write "Some people say that Okafor may not want to play in Minnesota."
Step 3: Write some filler and submit

Yea, I Fully expect a statement from Okafor. "I never said anything of the sort I am blessed to be in this position and will go anywhere."

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
05-21-2015, 08:26 AM
Regarding front page link to article about Okafor and Twolves... Has he or his agent actually said anything that would lead people to believe he doesn't want to play for MN? It appeared to be one writer speculating and another adopting that speculation and spinning a headline that implies Oak may be less than a "team player" about the situation - at least in comparison to Towns. If he said something, that is one thing. But I hate when pure speculation is regurgitated as reality or fact.

I completely agree. It's a blog that references a "basketball scribe" as guessing what Jahlil "might" do. Totally fine for blog fodder, but a little irresponsible for DBR front page, IMHO.

Also, this sounds rather out of character based on everything else I have seen and heard from the young man.


Journalism... sheesh.

Well, a source close to me who is very tied into the journalism community says he "has a gut feeling" that journalism standards went downhill during the advent of the blog era and have never come close to resurfacing. So, feel free to run that on your front page, Dr. Rosenrosen. Just please keep my name out of the article.

wsb3
05-21-2015, 08:39 AM
Yea, I Fully expect a statement from Okafor. "I never said anything of the sort I am blessed to be in this position and will go anywhere."

I hope so as well. I have a hard time imagining Okafor saying this. Now wanting to be the second player picked & go to the Lakers...

Skitzle
05-21-2015, 08:42 AM
Hate the lakers, but better them then the Knicks and T-Wolves.

Okafor REALLY lucked out! (Let's hope the Twolves love K A-T)

Troublemaker
05-21-2015, 09:38 AM
The writer probably just saw the ESPN headline where Okafor said that going #1 was more fan-driven than an actual goal of his (link: http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/draft2015/story/_/id/12918952/jahlil-okafor-says-being-no-1-pick-nba-draft-more-fans ) and then proceeded to read waaay too much into it. i.e. "He's only saying that because he wants to play for the Lakers!"

Troublemaker
05-21-2015, 09:53 AM
I'm actually kind of torn about whether I want Jah to land in Minny or L.A.

For 95% of Lakers history, it would be an easy choice. But right now, Jerry Buss is dead. His son Jim Buss is apparently an idiot. Byron Scott is an awful basketball coach. And Mitch Kupchak, let's face it, is a bad GM who's been living off the Pau Gasol trade for the past decade.

If Jah lands with the Twolves, he'll have a future All-Star teammate in Wiggins to grow with. He'll have a frontcourt partner in Dieng that can protect his weaknesses and allow him to just be a dominant post-scorer. He'll have a good PG in Rubio who can get him the ball (or maybe they can go out and trade for the much cheaper Tyus Stones.) And then the Twolves have lots of other intriguing parts like Zach Lavine, Shabazz Muhammad, Adreian Payne that they can trade for a 3-and-D wing.

Jah, Dieng, 3-and-D, Wiggins, Rubio or Stones

It's going to take the Lakers awhile to build up that level of young talent to surround Jah with.

Li_Duke
05-21-2015, 10:35 AM
I'm actually kind of torn about whether I want Jah to land in Minny or L.A.

For 95% of Lakers history, it would be an easy choice. But right now, Jerry Buss is dead. His son Jim Buss is apparently an idiot. Byron Scott is an awful basketball coach. And Mitch Kupchak, let's face it, is a bad GM who's been living off the Pau Gasol trade for the past decade.

I agree with you on Jim Buss and Byron Scott, but Mitch Kupchak actually has several great moves to his credit. The process has been great, but the luck has been poor.

He acquired Chris Paul by giving up Paul Gasol and Lamar Odom. It's not his fault that the league vetoed the trade.
He acquired Dwight Howard by giving up Andrew Bynum just before the latter had a string of injuries (some experts say you just knew Bynum was an injury waiting to happen based on how he ran). It's not his fault that Kobe drove Dwight away.
He acquired Steve Nash for draft picks. Who would have known that Steve Nash would suffer a spate of injuries. Injuries to Bryant and Dwight leaving made those draft picks worth more than originally expected.

rhcpflea99
05-21-2015, 11:00 AM
I agree with you on Jim Buss and Byron Scott, but Mitch Kupchak actually has several great moves to his credit. The process has been great, but the luck has been poor.

He acquired Chris Paul by giving up Paul Gasol and Lamar Odom. It's not his fault that the league vetoed the trade.
He acquired Dwight Howard by giving up Andrew Bynum just before the latter had a string of injuries (some experts say you just knew Bynum was an injury waiting to happen based on how he ran). It's not his fault that Kobe drove Dwight away.
He acquired Steve Nash for draft picks. Who would have known that Steve Nash would suffer a spate of injuries. Injuries to Bryant and Dwight leaving made those draft picks worth more than originally expected.

Since Dr. Jerry Buss has passed Lakers organization has been in disarray. Nash was a bad move, they lost draft picks, Howard never wanted to me in L. A. Chris Paul situation sucked but it happened. Don't think Lakers would be good fit for Jahlil, marketing wise dream come true, basketball wise though not the best. Lakers expectations are to high. Jahlil will be expected to do things he is not ready to do.

toooskies
05-21-2015, 12:48 PM
Since Dr. Jerry Buss has passed Lakers organization has been in disarray. Nash was a bad move, they lost draft picks, Howard never wanted to me in L. A. Chris Paul situation sucked but it happened. Don't think Lakers would be good fit for Jahlil, marketing wise dream come true, basketball wise though not the best. Lakers expectations are to high. Jahlil will be expected to do things he is not ready to do.

I agree with most of the above, but particularly that the organization has been off. They've chased names and traditional stats, like Byron Scott as coach and Nick Young on the wing, without putting any substance on the court. They cleared space for free agency and no one wanted to go there. They paid Kobe a contract that he didn't deserve anymore (although you can justify it as compensation for past performance). They paid Nash a contract that he didn't deserve anymore (even without the injuries, he's barely a rotation guy). Their coaching situation looks like Cleveland's: picking guys on record rather than current talent. The cap era hurts L.A. most of all because no team can overpay half the roster and still be competitive anymore.

Troublemaker
05-21-2015, 01:18 PM
Incidentally, if Jah doesn't feel like Minnesota is a good match for him, the feeling is mutual, at least among the Timberwolves fans.

Took a peek at the comments section of the T'Wolves SBN site: http://www.canishoopus.com/2015/5/20/8629533/minnesota-timberwolves-flip-saunders-talks-draft-lottery-no-1-pick-kg-on-kfan-morning-show#comments

Those guys are terrified that Flip Saunders will pick Okafor over Towns.

superdave
05-21-2015, 01:46 PM
Incidentally, if Jah doesn't feel like Minnesota is a good match for him, the feeling is mutual, at least among the Timberwolves fans.

Took a peek at the comments section of the T'Wolves SBN site: http://www.canishoopus.com/2015/5/20/8629533/minnesota-timberwolves-flip-saunders-talks-draft-lottery-no-1-pick-kg-on-kfan-morning-show#comments

Those guys are terrified that Flip Saunders will pick Okafor over Towns.

OMG, we might get the one future all-star and not the other future all-star!

brevity
05-21-2015, 02:23 PM
But right now, Jerry Buss is dead.

That could change. It's a cyclical league.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
05-21-2015, 02:56 PM
That could change. It's a cyclical league.

I thought it was a copy-cat league? Next thing you know, all the GMs might die.

MChambers
05-21-2015, 03:39 PM
That could change. It's a cyclical league.
If it changes, Buss would be a shoo-in for Comeback Owner of the Year. Unless, somehow, Sterling regains control of a franchise. Seems less likely than Buss coming back, however.

BluePanda
05-21-2015, 03:51 PM
Incidentally, if Jah doesn't feel like Minnesota is a good match for him, the feeling is mutual, at least among the Timberwolves fans.

Took a peek at the comments section of the T'Wolves SBN site: http://www.canishoopus.com/2015/5/20/8629533/minnesota-timberwolves-flip-saunders-talks-draft-lottery-no-1-pick-kg-on-kfan-morning-show#comments

Those guys are terrified that Flip Saunders will pick Okafor over Towns.

Just to clarify this as a Wolves fan, its not that they think Okafor won't be a good player but rather what the team's needs are. The Wolves desperately need a rim protector in the middle as Pekovic certainly does not fit that role, so KAT is seen as a more natural fit.

Personally, I'd be happy if the Wolves got Towns to develop next to Wiggins, Lavine and Shabazz and Jah goes to the Lakers and makes the playoffs in the near future with Clarkson, Kobe, Randle and some max FA.

BD80
05-21-2015, 03:54 PM
If it changes, Buss would be a shoo-in for Comeback Owner of the Year. Unless, somehow, Sterling regains control of a franchise. Seems less likely than Buss coming back, however.

Wasn't Buss's daughter running the Lakers?

Whole new meaning to concept of Phil Jackson being thrown under the Buss.

But Kupchak remembers back to when it seemed like everyone was riding a Ford.

BD80
05-21-2015, 03:57 PM
If Jah goes to Minny, he could stay with Tyus's family for the first year or two. Or at least have a place to have a home-made dinner during home stands. Plus, he would have friends and family a manageable drive away. Would help ease the transition to the harsh realities of the pros.

roywhite
05-21-2015, 04:11 PM
If Jah goes to Minny, he could stay with Tyus's family for the first year or two. Or at least have a place to have a home-made dinner during home stands. Plus, he would have friends and family a manageable drive away. Would help ease the transition to the harsh realities of the pros.

Yeah, and don't Chucky and other relatives still live in the Chicago area? Not a bad plane hop, or manageable drive as you note, from Chicago to the Twin Cities. Unless the whole crew wants to re-locate to SoCal?

Well the first thing you know ol Jah's a millionaire,
Kinfolk said "Jah move away from there"
Said "Californy is the place you ought to be"
So they loaded up the truck and moved to Beverly.

Hills, that is. Swimmin pools, movie stars.

tux
05-21-2015, 04:33 PM
Just to clarify this as a Wolves fan, its not that they think Okafor won't be a good player but rather what the team's needs are. The Wolves desperately need a rim protector in the middle as Pekovic certainly does not fit that role, so KAT is seen as a more natural fit.

Personally, I'd be happy if the Wolves got Towns to develop next to Wiggins, Lavine and Shabazz and Jah goes to the Lakers and makes the playoffs in the near future with Clarkson, Kobe, Randle and some max FA.


And I guess in 1984, Portland needed a center more than another wing. Okay, that's complete hyperbole, but if I were a GM, I'd take the best player available... there are other ways to manage a roster if you find yourself with redundant pieces...

I believe Okafor to be the only "sure thing" in this draft... there's plenty of talent, don't get me wrong, but Minnesota should not pass on Jah. That said, I'd rather see him play in LA, Philly, or NY.

Steven43
05-21-2015, 05:06 PM
If he can knock down 15 footers in workouts for top teams, he may leap over Towns.

Umm, maybe I'm just being pessimistic, but why would Oak be able to make 15-foot contested shots during game action when he can't even make 15-foot free throws while basically standing still with no one guarding him? Don't most players shoot a dramatically higher percentage from the free throw line than they do with 15-foot jumpshots? If he were able to shoot even 25% on his 15-foot jumpshots it would be nothing short of a miracle.

Des Esseintes
05-21-2015, 05:14 PM
Yes, Kobe will shoot a lot, but (a) he can still make them and (b) knows he can't do it all. IMO it actually seems like he's often frustrated on the court because the team's best offensive option is him taking a difficult shot -- we all know you can't win like that. He wants a 6th ring no matter how unlikely; and if there's any chance at all (read: make the playoffs), I believe he's not gonna take too many/bad shots.

Hahahaha. Good one, dude.

Indoor66
05-21-2015, 05:26 PM
If Chamberlain or Shaq had shot free throws at 75%, either one would have been considered the greatest player of all time. Free throw shooting is significant.

There are many of us who DO consider Chamberlain to have been the best player of all time. Then again, that may be a brown horse of another color.

BD80
05-21-2015, 06:07 PM
There are many of us who DO consider Chamberlain to have been the best player of all time. Then again, that may be a brown horse of another color.

Let's see, they changed rules to try to stop Wilt from dominating games.

They invented a special set of rules to benefit MJ.

Yeah. I'd have to go with Wilt. Maybe Russell, he was good at winning.

Indoor66
05-21-2015, 07:25 PM
Let's see, they changed rules to try to stop Wilt from dominating games.

They invented a special set of rules to benefit MJ.

Yeah. I'd have to go with Wilt. Maybe Russell, he was good at winning.

Check out this NBA Appreciation article (http://www.nba.com/history/wilt_appreciation.html) - it touches on some of the rule changes caused by Wilt. Some of the younger members might gain some appreciation for what happened before they were born. The game did not start with Jordan or Shaq.....:cool:

MartyClark
05-21-2015, 07:43 PM
Yeah, and don't Chucky and other relatives still live in the Chicago area? Not a bad plane hop, or manageable drive as you note, from Chicago to the Twin Cities. Unless the whole crew wants to re-locate to SoCal?

Well the first thing you know ol Jah's a millionaire,
Kinfolk said "Jah move away from there"
Said "Californy is the place you ought to be"
So they loaded up the truck and moved to Beverly.

Hills, that is. Swimmin pools, movie stars.

Chucky and the family moving to L.A. really does have the potential for a reality t.v. show.

westwall
05-22-2015, 01:54 AM
Check out this NBA Appreciation article (http://www.nba.com/history/wilt_appreciation.html) - it touches on some of the rule changes caused by Wilt. Some of the younger members might gain some appreciation for what happened before they were born. The game did not start with Jordan or Shaq.....:cool:

True. I met Wilt many years ago. He was sitting By himself on a piling outside Gladstones (foot of Sunset Blvd) just chatting with people going in and out of the restaurant. -- I had almost forgotten.

BluePanda
05-22-2015, 11:27 AM
And I guess in 1984, Portland needed a center more than another wing. Okay, that's complete hyperbole, but if I were a GM, I'd take the best player available... there are other ways to manage a roster if you find yourself with redundant pieces...

I believe Okafor to be the only "sure thing" in this draft... there's plenty of talent, don't get me wrong, but Minnesota should not pass on Jah. That said, I'd rather see him play in LA, Philly, or NY.

Yes, I was talking about filling a need and not best player available. If you want to talk about it, most people have Towns as BPA and I think you'd have a hard time finding a group of scouts, GMs, writers who believe Okafor is the single best player in this draft. This is either a two-man race for 1st or I've actually seen more Towns as 1 and Okafor as 2. I know we tend to be biased towards Duke players here, but let's not get carried away - Towns is an excellent talent and probably has fewer question marks to his game right now than Jah.

sagegrouse
05-22-2015, 12:10 PM
Yes, I was talking about filling a need and not best player available. If you want to talk about it, most people have Towns as BPA and I think you'd have a hard time finding a group of scouts, GMs, writers who believe Okafor is the single best player in this draft. This is either a two-man race for 1st or I've actually seen more Towns as 1 and Okafor as 2. I know we tend to be biased towards Duke players here, but let's not get carried away - Towns is an excellent talent and probably has fewer question marks to his game right now than Jah.

I politely disagree and believe, if he is not the #1 pick, the team that passes him up will be sorry. I predict Jahlil will be this year's recipient of the Dan Marino Overscouted Award. Going into his last year at Pitt, Dan Marino was thought to be the #1 QB and then the NFL scouts and management looked at him so much they began to notice flaws in his delivery and there was some tut-tutting and then it became fashionable to downgrade his talents. He dropped to #27 and was the seventh QB selected. Then he went on to break all the passing records for the NFL.

Jah is an offensive prodigy and genius. His supposed flaws on defense and athleticism reflect primarily his lack of experience on defense and the way he has been taught to play to avoid fouls. His defense improved significantly over the course of the year, and I think he will do fine in the NBA on both ends of the court.

Kindly,
Sage Grouse
'BTW the 1983 draft was the year of the QB and included Elway and Jim Kelly'

tux
05-22-2015, 12:32 PM
I politely disagree and believe, if he is not the #1 pick, the team that passes him up will be sorry. I predict Jahlil will be this year's recipient of the Dan Marino Overscouted Award. Going into his last year at Pitt, Dan Marino was thought to be the #1 QB and then the NFL scouts and management looked at him so much they began to notice flaws in his delivery and there was some tut-tutting and then it became fashionable to downgrade his talents. He dropped to #27 and was the seventh QB selected. Then he went on to break all the passing records for the NFL.

Jah is an offensive prodigy and genius. His supposed flaws on defense and athleticism reflect primarily his lack of experience on defense and the way he has been taught to play to avoid fouls. His defense improved significantly over the course of the year, and I think he will do fine in the NBA on both ends of the court.

Kindly,
Sage Grouse
'BTW the 1983 draft was the year of the QB and included Elway and Jim Kelly'


This is my position as well. Jah didn't dominate quite as much after his ankle injury in the first UNC game; he was probably more banged up than the team let on. "Prodigy" is the right word though. I don't see that same potential in Towns. I think Towns will have a very nice, solid NBA career. Okafor has the potential to be a HOFer. We'll see...

BluePanda
05-22-2015, 12:42 PM
I politely disagree and believe, if he is not the #1 pick, the team that passes him up will be sorry. I predict Jahlil will be this year's recipient of the Dan Marino Overscouted Award. Going into his last year at Pitt, Dan Marino was thought to be the #1 QB and then the NFL scouts and management looked at him so much they began to notice flaws in his delivery and there was some tut-tutting and then it became fashionable to downgrade his talents. He dropped to #27 and was the seventh QB selected. Then he went on to break all the passing records for the NFL.

Jah is an offensive prodigy and genius. His supposed flaws on defense and athleticism reflect primarily his lack of experience on defense and the way he has been taught to play to avoid fouls. His defense improved significantly over the course of the year, and I think he will do fine in the NBA on both ends of the court.

Kindly,
Sage Grouse
'BTW the 1983 draft was the year of the QB and included Elway and Jim Kelly'

Fair enough. I disagree with the first part but its obviously all opinions at this point. I do agree some of Jah's perceived deficiencies on defense were a result of the team's makeup last year and obviously would be ecstatic if he became a superstar and the face of the Lakers for the next decade+. On the other hand, I do believe Towns has a similar impact and potential, and because they're equal in that respect, you have to consider team fit/needs at that point, which is what I was talking about originally.

yancem
05-22-2015, 12:52 PM
Yes, I was talking about filling a need and not best player available. If you want to talk about it, most people have Towns as BPA and I think you'd have a hard time finding a group of scouts, GMs, writers who believe Okafor is the single best player in this draft. This is either a two-man race for 1st or I've actually seen more Towns as 1 and Okafor as 2. I know we tend to be biased towards Duke players here, but let's not get carried away - Towns is an excellent talent and probably has fewer question marks to his game right now than Jah.

I'm not sure why anyone would think that Towns has fewer question marks than Okafor. Towns played on a team that was stacked in the frontcourt and was never the focus of the opposing team's defense. A lot of his points were on the break or dunks. I know that he has more range than Okafor but he shot only 25% from the 3 which doesn't exactly make him a great stretch 4 and I'm not sure he proved that he can be a consistent post scorer. He certainly should develop in that department but I think that Okafor will develop similarly on defense. His defense was often much better when the game was on the line than people give him credit for. He didn't always play aggressive defense but I think that was in large part by design. He has great footwork and mobility and there is no reason to believe that he can't use those traits on the defensive end. Conversely, while Towns excelled on defense, he didn't have to worry about foul trouble at all since he only played 21 mpg and knew that there were 3-4 guys that could spell him. Also with the other tall trees in the KY lineup, he could gamble without much consequence.

While I will admit that Towns may have a slightly higher ceiling due to his athleticism and better outside shooting, I think that Okafor is much more of a sure thing. We really haven't seen a player like Okafor in quite a while but there seems to be 1-2 players similar to Towns every year. If I were making the decision, I would take Okafor but then again, there may be a reason I'm not making the decision!

flyingdutchdevil
05-22-2015, 01:22 PM
I'm not sure why anyone would think that Towns has fewer question marks than Okafor. Towns played on a team that was stacked in the frontcourt and was never the focus of the opposing team's defense. A lot of his points were on the break or dunks. I know that he has more range than Okafor but he shot only 25% from the 3 which doesn't exactly make him a great stretch 4 and I'm not sure he proved that he can be a consistent post scorer. He certainly should develop in that department but I think that Okafor will develop similarly on defense. His defense was often much better when the game was on the line than people give him credit for. He didn't always play aggressive defense but I think that was in large part by design. He has great footwork and mobility and there is no reason to believe that he can't use those traits on the defensive end. Conversely, while Towns excelled on defense, he didn't have to worry about foul trouble at all since he only played 21 mpg and knew that there were 3-4 guys that could spell him. Also with the other tall trees in the KY lineup, he could gamble without much consequence.

While I will admit that Towns may have a slightly higher ceiling due to his athleticism and better outside shooting, I think that Okafor is much more of a sure thing. We really haven't seen a player like Okafor in quite a while but there seems to be 1-2 players similar to Towns every year. If I were making the decision, I would take Okafor but then again, there may be a reason I'm not making the decision!

I think this is accurate. Okafor is ready to produce, and he'll be a 15-8 guy at some point in his career. More realistic, he'll be a 20-10 guy, and maybe even a 24-10 guy. However, Okafor will never be a great or elite defender. He may not even be a good defender.

Towns, on the other hand, has the tools to be an great or elite defender. He's already a better rebounder and outside shooter than Okafor (although Okafor will never be and never wants to be an outside shooter). The question is whether Towns can be at least 75% of the offensive player that Okafor can be. Honestly, I think he can.

If I'm a GM who actually cares about my team over my career, I'd take Towns as he has the potential to be a game changer. Okafor will keep the GM his job, but odds are higher for Towns to be a game changer than Okafor.

roywhite
05-23-2015, 06:14 PM
Sorry if this was already addressed, but I'm hoping Jahlil, Justise, and Tyus successfully completed their course work for the spring semester.

Wouldn't be shocked it they didn't. Any info?

Mabdul Doobakus
05-24-2015, 12:06 PM
I don't think there's any question Okafor is an astounding offensive talent. NBA defenses won't be able to key in on him like college defenses were doing later in the season, because the other players on the floor will undoubtedly make them pay. I also think Okafor will only get better at passing out of double teams as time goes by. He's a generational offensive talent, and I think in 2-3 years time will be the most offensively talented big man in the NBA.

It honestly makes no sense why he's so bad on defense. I think he can improve. There's no reason he shouldn't be at least an average defender who can at least alter a few shots in the lane every once in a while. I also found his rebounding a bit lacking given his size advantage in college, and it's not going to get any easier at the next level. Unfortunately, I don't see that part of his game improving much. He'll be perfectly serviceable in that department, but there's going to be plenty of NBA big men who are going to outwork him for the tough rebounds. And that's OK because that kind of thing takes a toll.

If you think Okafor can be an average NBA defender, he should be the #1 pick. I'm frankly not sold, though, that he will reach that point, just because he was inexplicably ineffective at the college level.

Dr. Rosenrosen
05-24-2015, 12:13 PM
Sorry if this was already addressed, but I'm hoping Jahlil, Justise, and Tyus successfully completed their course work for the spring semester.

Wouldn't be shocked it they didn't. Any info?
I'd be monumentally shocked if they didn't finish. That would be a nasty hit to the APR wouldn't it? And I can't imagine them doing that to K and the program.

rocketeli
05-24-2015, 12:18 PM
I'd be monumentally shocked if they didn't finish. That would be a nasty hit to the APR wouldn't it? And I can't imagine them doing that to K and the program.

I may be wrong, so some other poster could enlighten me, but I think if the players in question leave in "good academic standing" that is basically finish and pass the spring courses the APR is safe.

rocketeli
05-24-2015, 12:24 PM
I don't think there's any question Okafor is an astounding offensive talent. NBA defenses won't be able to key in on him like college defenses were doing later in the season, because the other players on the floor will undoubtedly make them pay. I also think Okafor will only get better at passing out of double teams as time goes by. He's a generational offensive talent, and I think in 2-3 years time will be the most offensively talented big man in the NBA.

It honestly makes no sense why he's so bad on defense. I think he can improve. There's no reason he shouldn't be at least an average defender who can at least alter a few shots in the lane every once in a while. I also found his rebounding a bit lacking given his size advantage in college, and it's not going to get any easier at the next level. Unfortunately, I don't see that part of his game improving much. He'll be perfectly serviceable in that department, but there's going to be plenty of NBA big men who are going to outwork him for the tough rebounds. And that's OK because that kind of thing takes a toll.

If you think Okafor can be an average NBA defender, he should be the #1 pick. I'm frankly not sold, though, that he will reach that point, just because he was inexplicably ineffective at the college level.

I question the meme that Okafor is actually a poor defender. Did we really see that? He doesn't jump around and swat a lot of shots into the seats but that doesn't make him a "poor" defender. When you play way down low people are going to be scoring on you a fair amount because they are putting up very high percentage shots and there's not much anyone can do. I'm sure his positioning and footwork on defense could improve a bit but that's not hard for someone like Okafor to learn.

Mabdul Doobakus
05-24-2015, 01:18 PM
I question the meme that Okafor is actually a poor defender. Did we really see that? He doesn't jump around and swat a lot of shots into the seats but that doesn't make him a "poor" defender. When you play way down low people are going to be scoring on you a fair amount because they are putting up very high percentage shots and there's not much anyone can do. I'm sure his positioning and footwork on defense could improve a bit but that's not hard for someone like Okafor to learn.

I don't know how many blocked shots he had, but just subjectively to me, it didn't seem like he deterred anyone from coming into the lane, nor did he alter many shots. A guy that size ought to make opponents at the very least alter their shot angles. Again, this is all subjective, but to me, this very rarely happened with Okafor in the game...like way, way less than I'm used to seeing with other centers his size. Additionally, any time he went up against a talented big man, it seemed he was prone to picking up fouls pretty quickly. I have no numbers to back any of this up. It's just what I remember seeing with my own eyes.

theAlaskanBear
05-24-2015, 01:22 PM
I question the meme that Okafor is actually a poor defender. Did we really see that? He doesn't jump around and swat a lot of shots into the seats but that doesn't make him a "poor" defender. When you play way down low people are going to be scoring on you a fair amount because they are putting up very high percentage shots and there's not much anyone can do. I'm sure his positioning and footwork on defense could improve a bit but that's not hard for someone like Okafor to learn.

Okafor faces two problems when it comes to his defense. His weight (makes him slower, also doesnt have great lift) and he lacks experience. I am among the camp that thinks Okafor's defense is being emphasized rather unfairly. He measures out to be a similar height/reach as Towns, and he had more offensive responsibility as well as less defensive help and more minutes than Towns -- Towns could play much more aggressively on defense in Calipari's system than Okafor could in ours, and had more energy to do so because he didnt get the ball on offense every time up.

That said, Jahlil will need to take conditioning very seriously. At 270+ the past year, he is already as heavy as the heaviest NBA centers. The only stars who play at this weight* are Demarcus Cousins (quicker, better athlete), and Marc Gasol (taller, but might be a good comparable), and Andre Drummond (total freak athlete). Most of the really solid NBA centers play lighter, about 250. Guys like Mozgov and Bogut and DeAndre Jordan are all as big as Oak but they play at this 250ish range, and with the exception of Jordan (a great athlete), they play "on the floor" defense quite well. I think Okafor will ideally need to get his weight down to here. Only bulk up after a few years experience, if he thinks he needs more strength. But he has tools, give him some time to learn the game.

That said, I think Towns has tremendous potential as well. He could be a terrifically well rounded offensive player, as well as a good defender. I would draft based on need, do you need a center or a PF?

*according to basketball-reference.com

pfrduke
05-24-2015, 02:43 PM
I question the meme that Okafor is actually a poor defender. Did we really see that? He doesn't jump around and swat a lot of shots into the seats but that doesn't make him a "poor" defender. When you play way down low people are going to be scoring on you a fair amount because they are putting up very high percentage shots and there's not much anyone can do. I'm sure his positioning and footwork on defense could improve a bit but that's not hard for someone like Okafor to learn.

Okafor frequently looked lost on pick-and-roll defense. He did not have a good intuitive sense of when to hedge, how far, when to recover, what angle he needed to take to do so, etc. The best, but certainly not only, example of this is the Miami game.

This is hard defense for big men to learn and the fact that he was bad at this aspect of the game in his freshman year of college does not doom him to be bad at it forever. And in one-on-one scenarios, he held his own - he was not a shut down defender, certainly, but he also wasn't really that bad. But he needs a substantial education in how to defend the pick-and-roll - NBA offenses are sophisticated enough to try to exploit that weakness as much as they can.

Dukehky
05-24-2015, 04:06 PM
Okafor's much maligned defense is warranted, but not for the reason that many of the talking heads perceive it to be. His pick and roll defense is atrocious. He looks flat footed and slow. This is not one of the areas where the excuse of not wanting to foul is applicable. He is supposed to hedge it and beat the ball handler to the spot with a head start. College basketball does not center on the pick and roll, so I doubt that the defensive coaching he received centered on this aspect of defense, giving him a little leeway.

Other than the pick and roll defense, criticism on his defense is way off base in my opinion. I thought that through the latter part of the season, the fact that he has a 7'6 wingspan and decent vertical athleticism had a pretty good impact on those driving to the rim. He had a presence as a rim protector. Sure he didn't block 3 shots a game, but shot alterations is not a stat that is kept. He also was not very big on swatting at shots like KAT. I thought that Okafor's man to man post defense was well above average. He holds his position and is very adept at keeping his hands straight up. He has a 9'5 standing reach. He does a great job of keeping those hands straight up while his man makes post moves. He forces them to shoot over without jumping and trying to block the shot. This also enables him to stay on the floor, because jumping to block a shot in the post is a sure way to get a foul called on you.

This leads me to the most important qualifier when discussing Jahlil's college defensive performance. He made a concerted effort not to foul. Sometimes he looked lazy, sometimes he looked stupid on defense. But the strategy to keep the threat of the most dominant low post threat college has seen since Duncan obviously was effective. Duke lost 4 games and won a national title. I think there is certainly room for improvement, and unfortunately, the defensive skill he will need to acquire to be an adequate pro defender is the skill I think he is least likely to accrue (pick and roll defense).

All in all, I don't think you can go wrong with Okafor or Towns. I think the questions about Towns on offense (low post) are blown out of proportion almost as badly as Okafor's defensive liabilities are. Towns has terrific R/L jump hooks (look at the Wisconsin game), and apparently can shoot (I'll believe it when I see it). Note: I think Okafor is all about confidence, he hits bank shots with regularity from about 10 feet out and his stroke is certainly not broken, I think he'll get there. I also don't think Towns is some kind of world changing shot blocker. He played in a terrible conference with no shooting and no skill, he could roam around with other rangy athletes and jump and swat to his heart's content. Uk players' stats don't mean anything to me from this past year, and that means good stats and bad stats.

Minnesota would be a bad landing spot for Jah, Pek is a similar type of player, and plus, I want to see him play every once and a while. So while it would be nice to have a Duke guy go 1 again, I'm not too worried about it. Towns is a great player, with more athletic potential than Okafor, but that doesn't always mean you're going to be a better player.

My biggest concern for Jahlil's career is that the NBA is shifting away from giving the ball to one on one post scorers as their primary option. I'm not even sure guys in the league have ever been in a system where it would be important to get the ball to the big guy. Towns' alleged skill set (good shooter) and long athlete would appear to allow for a more seamless transition to the NBA game.

Whatever happens, I think that our 3 guys are going in the top 25 and are going to have outstanding NBA careers. I think that Jah has the potential to be a HOF guy, that Justise will be at least a one time all star and that Tyus will end up being a career starting point guard. Quinn will make a team before his time in hoops is over.

one or two doesn't really matter, but Towns really pushed himself into driving a conversation that started months ago to allow for some discussion leading up to the draft. It started as lip service, he played his way into the lead. That kid is really good, but I would take Jah. Jah wins titles...

_Gary
05-24-2015, 04:17 PM
I really don't care to see Jah go to the Timberwolves at all, but they are fools if they take Towns instead. Everyone betting on him being the better player over Okafor will see the error of their ways this year - and in years to come. Mark it down and take it to the bank. Oh, and he's going to get better and better on the defensive end as well, although I think too much is made of his supposed "average to poor" defense. Again, he's going to make a lot of people who are doubting him look really foolish in the years to come. He's a once in a decade talent at center.

Des Esseintes
05-24-2015, 08:16 PM
How many Karl Towns games have most of us actually watched? I know I saw way less Kentucky basketball than Duke basketball this season. Not surprisingly, I have no idea whether Okafor or Towns will prove better at the next level. Certainly others watch more college ball than I do, but I nevertheless find it extremely hard to believe the number of people on this board who have a strong opinion on this matter overlaps perfectly with the number of people on this board who have watched equally vast amounts of tape for each player. Further, I think saying a front office would be "foolish" or "stupid" for preferring one consensus top-two player over another consensus top-two player is just chock full of hubris. Predicting future development is hard. Even the very best talent evaluators struggle at it. Can we exercise a little humility here, or is the pull of homerism just that overwhelming?

Dukehky
05-24-2015, 08:25 PM
How many Karl Towns games have most of us actually watched? I know I saw way less Kentucky basketball than Duke basketball this season. Not surprisingly, I have no idea whether Okafor or Towns will prove better at the next level. Certainly others watch more college ball than I do, but I nevertheless find it extremely hard to believe the number of people on this board who have a strong opinion on this matter overlaps perfectly with the number of people on this board who have watched equally vast amounts of tape for each player. Further, I think saying a front office would be "foolish" or "stupid" for preferring one consensus top-two player over another consensus top-two player is just chock full of hubris. Predicting future development is hard. Even the very best talent evaluators struggle at it. Can we exercise a little humility here, or is the pull of homerism just that overwhelming?

I hate watched every UK game this season that did not coincide with the time of a Duke game. That being said, I still think KAT is an incredible player/prospect.

NSDukeFan
05-24-2015, 08:29 PM
I hate watched every UK game this season that did not coincide with the time of a Duke game. That being said, I still think KAT is an incredible player/prospect.

i would probably do the same if I had to watch every UK game while hoping they wouldn't be undefeated. 😀

rocketeli
05-24-2015, 09:55 PM
I was just rewatching the championship game. You know who really isn't very good at defense? Frank Kaminsky.

Billy Dat
05-26-2015, 10:56 AM
Interesting Zach Lowe piece on the fall, and potential rise, of post-ups in the NBA. Based on what he observes, the league is at a point where Jah's ability to post and pass is at a premium.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/we-interrupt-this-eulogy-for-the-nba-post-up-game-to-bring-you-its-rebirth/

In short, the rules revolution that took away handchecking and loosened the illegal defense rules not only encouraged drive and kick, but also made it harder to post as the default defense became a front and the loosened D rules allowed much more help from the weak side. However, as the pick and roll game began to thrive, and teams often began to "switch everything" to defend it, you wound up with mismatches of guards being switched onto bigs in the post. If the big rotates into the post and receives the ball, he can either try and work his post game or, if the defense quickly reacts and doubles, he has to be able to move the ball effectively, often to counterintuitive spots on the floor as the help D comes from odd places (sometimes).

Of course, Jah also has to learn to play D in such scenarios, but such is life in the L.

gus
05-30-2015, 11:06 AM
The front page article on Tyus cites a few NBA players who were underrate at the draft... and includes Larry Bird?


Not many people thought Charles Barkley could do what he did and no one really expected Muggsy Bogues to last at 5-3. Larry Bird was too slow.

Larry Bird was selected 6th in the '78 draft, despite already making it clear he'd return for another season at Indiana State. The celtics picked him knowing they wouldn't get him for a year! The pacers traded away the top pick knowing that Bird wouldn't play that season: otherwise he would have been the first pick. I think plenty of people expected Bird to do well in the league.

jimsumner
05-30-2015, 11:59 AM
The front page article on Tyus cites a few NBA players who were underrate at the draft... and includes Larry Bird?



Larry Bird was selected 6th in the '78 draft, despite already making it clear he'd return for another season at Indiana State. The celtics picked him knowing they wouldn't get him for a year! The pacers traded away the top pick knowing that Bird wouldn't play that season: otherwise he would have been the first pick. I think plenty of people expected Bird to do well in the league.

And Barkley was the fifth pick in a loaded draft. Not exactly under the radar.

toooskies
05-31-2015, 02:40 AM
If I remember correctly from when I was an ESPN Insider, Tyus was ranked the #1 prospect nationwide by their system, because he had a tremendously high free throw rate for a guard. It is a trait that tends to coincide with freak athletes (i.e. Dwyane Wade), which Tyus definitely isn't. Tyus instead has the skill of being able to force a foul. It'll be interesting to see if it translates. But that's why many sets of numbers will like his performance translating to the NBA.

subzero02
05-31-2015, 02:54 AM
i would probably do the same if I had to watch every UK game while hoping they wouldn't be undefeated. 😀

Until one fateful saturday night in early april

NashvilleDevil
06-01-2015, 08:08 AM
Trey Lyles at 4? I know the Knicks could trade down and get him but if they don't trade down and they take Lyles then how bad of a pick is that?

flyingdutchdevil
06-01-2015, 08:16 AM
Trey Lyles at 4? I know the Knicks could trade down and get him but if they don't trade down and they take Lyles then how bad of a pick is that?

I mean, has Phil Jackson - as a coach or GM - ever drafted anyone of significance? He didn't draft Jordan, Pippen, Kobe, or Shaq. He inherited these players.

I hope the Knicks draft Lyles at 4. It means that Winslow won't have his development cut short.

tux
06-01-2015, 09:41 AM
I mean, has Phil Jackson - as a coach or GM - ever drafted anyone of significance? He didn't draft Jordan, Pippen, Kobe, or Shaq. He inherited these players.

I hope the Knicks draft Lyles at 4. It means that Winslow won't have his development cut short.


There's a lot of posturing going on... I seriously doubt they would draft Lyles at #4. Maybe trade down to get something + Lyles.

That said, I'm highly skeptical of the idea of drafting someone who "fits into the triangle offense". The Knicks need so much help, they should just draft whoever they think is the best player left, regardless of position or "fit".

Winslow is getting a lot of press. His projected slot is moving around quite a bit.

I'm hoping for some trades --- the draft is so much more interesting when that happens...

flyingdutchdevil
06-01-2015, 10:14 AM
There's a lot of posturing going on... I seriously doubt they would draft Lyles at #4. Maybe trade down to get something + Lyles.

That said, I'm highly skeptical of the idea of drafting someone who "fits into the triangle offense". The Knicks need so much help, they should just draft whoever they think is the best player left, regardless of position or "fit".

Winslow is getting a lot of press. His projected slot is moving around quite a bit.

I'm hoping for some trades --- the draft is so much more interesting when that happens...

Oh, I agree with everything you wrote here. I'd be shocked if Lyles went forth. However, this is also the Knicks we're talking about. Here are there first round picks since 2006:

2006: Renaldo Balkman (out of the league)
2006: Mardy Collins (out of the league)
2007: Wilson Chandler (solid pick at 23. Traded for Melo)
2008: Danilo Gallinari (solid pick at 6. Traded for Melo)
2009: Jordan Hill (Jennings, Holiday, Lawson, and Teague were still on the board)
2011: Iman Shumpert (solid pick at 17. Traded to Cleveland 4 years later)
2013: Tim Hardaway, Jr (Still on the team)

Sure, the majority of these picks aren't lottery, but it's a pretty bad history. You would expect at least one of these players to be part of the Knicks's plan today.

theAlaskanBear
06-01-2015, 10:42 AM
Oh, I agree with everything you wrote here. I'd be shocked if Lyles went forth. However, this is also the Knicks we're talking about. Here are there first round picks since 2006:

2006: Renaldo Balkman (out of the league)
2006: Mardy Collins (out of the league)
2007: Wilson Chandler (solid pick at 23. Traded for Melo)
2008: Danilo Gallinari (solid pick at 6. Traded for Melo)
2009: Jordan Hill (Jennings, Holiday, Lawson, and Teague were still on the board)
2011: Iman Shumpert (solid pick at 17. Traded to Cleveland 4 years later)
2013: Tim Hardaway, Jr (Still on the team)

Sure, the majority of these picks aren't lottery, but it's a pretty bad history. You would expect at least one of these players to be part of the Knicks's plan today.

Actually, the Knicks drafting in the Isiah Thomas/Donnie Walsh era isn't bad at all, considering the draft positions. It produced: Trevor Ariza -44th, Channing Frye -8th, David Lee-30th, Wilson Chandler-23rd, Danilo Galinari-6th, Jordan Hill-8th, Landry Fields-39th, Iman Shumpert-17th, Kosta Papanikolaou - 48th. They are obviously missing a star player, but they didnt have much shot at one based on the drafting positions. The problem with the Knicks has been total dysfunction in the management, bad trades, poor salary cap management, Dolan's win now quick trigger.

gus
06-01-2015, 12:58 PM
Actually, the Knicks drafting in the Isiah Thomas/Donnie Walsh era isn't bad at all, considering the draft positions. It produced: Trevor Ariza -44th, Channing Frye -8th, David Lee-30th, Wilson Chandler-23rd, Danilo Galinari-6th, Jordan Hill-8th, Landry Fields-39th, Iman Shumpert-17th, Kosta Papanikolaou - 48th. They are obviously missing a star player, but they didnt have much shot at one based on the drafting positions. The problem with the Knicks has been total dysfunction in the management, bad trades, poor salary cap management, Dolan's win now quick trigger.

How can you talk about knicks' drafts without mentioning this guy, selected 15th ahead of hometown hero Ron Artest:

https://cdn3.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/9JuHb1vFDr7OtKVkVfppuGgsiW8=/0x306:731x793/709x473/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/assets/1215734/20120630VinceDunk_DarrenMcNamaraGetty.jpg

Henderson
06-02-2015, 10:43 AM
Is somebody going to break out the DBR NBA Mock Draft link soon?

It needs a good commish as in past years. You know, someone to keep the cats heading in the right direction and watching the clock.

flyingdutchdevil
06-02-2015, 11:12 AM
Is somebody going to break out the DBR NBA Mock Draft link soon?

It needs a good commish as in past years. You know, someone to keep the cats heading in the right direction and watching the clock.

Ohhhhhh. Love the idea. I got Boston!

CDu
06-02-2015, 11:20 AM
Ohhhhhh. Love the idea. I got Boston!

I'd like to request Chicago (again).