Stay Classy, Karl Hess

[FerryFor50]

http://www.newsobserver.com/2015/01/05/4452289_decock-accs-most-controversial.html?sp=/99/103/&rh=1

[_Gary]

http://www.newsobserver.com/2015/01/05/4452289_decock-accs-most-controversial.html?sp=/99/103/&rh=1

Why will I not be at all surprised if the allegations against Hess are true? :rolleyes:

[MChambers]

Makes it less likely he'll be doing Wednesday's game, so that is something to be grateful for!

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

He said/He said. Bless their hearts.
Love, Ima

[Henderson]

Have we not learned anything regarding the danger of one-source reporting?

Luke needs corroboration, or he needs to go back to school. Sheez, this is Journalism 101.

[Duvall]

Have we not learned anything regarding the danger of one-source reporting?

Luke needs corroboration, or he needs to go back to school. Sheez, this is Journalism 101.

Corroboration of what?

[cspan37421]

Um, corroboration that Hess actually said what someone claimed he said. Henderson, wish I could spork you but I need to spread the love.

It's more than Journalism 101, it's a good policy for everyone. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Now, I don't think much of Hess as a ref, and even though Egypt is not a race, it is still a pretty extraordinary claim (unless he has a track record of similar comments - but I'm not aware that he does).

[oldnavy]

I do not like to watch Karl Hess work... can't say I don't like him because I don't know him.

I wonder what the guy said to Karl to get him to respond in that way?

It does show that Karl can't call ethnicity any better than he can call BB games!

You missed it Karl, the guy is of Indian heritage!

Retire already!

[gus]

I do not like to watch Karl Hess work... can't say I don't like him because I don't know him.

I wonder what the guy said to Karl to get him to respond in that way?

It does show that Karl can't call ethnicity any better than he can call BB games!

You missed it Karl, the guy is of Indian heritage!

Retire already!

It's such a weird thing to say. "Egyptian" doesn't exactly roll off the tongue. I wonder if there was some creative listening here?

[OldPhiKap]

If he said it loud enough to hear, shouldn't there be a corroborating witness?

I will wait on this until it is more than he/she said.

[Duvall]

If he said it loud enough to hear, shouldn't there be a corroborating witness?

I will wait on this until it is more than he/she said.

Or, more accurately, he said/he refused to speak to the press.

[OldPhiKap]

Or, more accurately, he said/he refused to speak to the press.

Certainly possible. But without some corroboration, the only thing I have to go on is that I don't like the way the guy refs. Not enough for me to label the guy a racist.

[Duvall]

Certainly possible. But without some corroboration, the only thing I have to go on is that I don't like the way the guy refs. Not enough for me to label the guy a racist.

I don't think we have been asked to label Hess as anything. I am curious though as to how broadly this "corroborating witness" standard is supposed to apply.

[OldPhiKap]

I don't think we have been asked to label Hess as anything. I am curious though as to how broadly this "corroborating witness" standard is supposed to apply.

I had read a headline on this story (perhaps somewhere else) that framed the issue that way.

In any event, the gentleman making the accusation is a member of the board of trustees of Wake. If they want to take action, I am sure they can do so and put forward whatever evidence they have.

As far as a "corroborating witness" standard, I flip the question -- what is there to make me believe that the gentleman heard Hess correctly, or that the story is true or false, beyond the fact that I don't like the way Hess conducts himself as a referee? Perceived credibility based upon my biases that I just don't like the way the guy refs?

All I am saying is -- if Hess said this loud enough to hear, more than this guy heard it. It should be easy to corroborate.

[FerryFor50]

I had read a headline on this story (perhaps somewhere else) that framed the issue that way.

In any event, the gentleman making the accusation is a member of the board of trustees of Wake. If they want to take action, I am sure they can do so and put forward whatever evidence they have.

As far as a "corroborating witness" standard, I flip the question -- what is there to make me believe that the gentleman heard Hess correctly, or that the story is true or false, beyond the fact that I don't like the way Hess conducts himself as a referee? Perceived credibility based upon my biases that I just don't like the way the guy refs?

All I am saying is -- if Hess said this loud enough to hear, more than this guy heard it. It should be easy to corroborate.

What was your general opinion on the Marcus Smart/Texas A&M incident? Did you think the fan said "piece of crap" or what Smart thought the fan said to set him off?

[JasonEvans]

What was your general opinion on the Marcus Smart/Texas A&M incident? Did you think the fan said "piece of crap" or what Smart thought the fan said to set him off?

This!!!

To me, it sorta does not matter if Hess said what he said or said something different, interacting with fans like that is just not appropriate for a ref, especially one with many years experience who should know better. Shut up and do your job, Karl.

-Jason "had Hess really felt the guy was being abusive and threatening, he can get the man thrown out of the arena -- just ask a couple legendary NC State players" Evans

[killerleft]

This!!!

To me, it sorta does not matter if Hess said what he said or said something different, interacting with fans like that is just not appropriate for a ref, especially one with many years experience who should know better. Shut up and do your job, Karl.

-Jason "had Hess really felt the guy was being abusive and threatening, he can get the man thrown out of the arena -- just ask a couple legendary NC State players" Evans

Never yack with the fans. Seems like making a mountain out of a molehill in the first place, though. Worthy of a laugh and a retort, maybe, but reporting him to the ACC? I don't see it.

[OldPhiKap]

What was your general opinion on the Marcus Smart/Texas A&M incident? Did you think the fan said "piece of crap" or what Smart thought the fan said to set him off?

Not familiar with it, so I don't have an opinion.


This!!!

To me, it sorta does not matter if Hess said what he said or said something different, interacting with fans like that is just not appropriate for a ref, especially one with many years experience who should know better. Shut up and do your job, Karl.

-Jason "had Hess really felt the guy was being abusive and threatening, he can get the man thrown out of the arena -- just ask a couple legendary NC State players" Evans


Never yack with the fans. Seems like making a mountain out of a molehill in the first place, though. Worthy of a laugh and a retort, maybe, but reporting him to the ACC? I don't see it.

That's a different issue, and one in which we are in agreement. But Hess showed with Googs and Crotti that fans get under his skin. If the point here is that he should not ref because of that -- count me in. I don't think that's the point the trustee was making, though, nor the reason there are articles about it. And again, it is only one man's assertion that this happened in the first place as far as I know.

In any event, I need to go take a shower after having to stick up for Hess, even in a "get more evidence before you condemn" manner. Not gonna waste a lot of bandwidth keeping him from the mob when I would like to hold a pitchfork m'self.

[FerryFor50]

Not familiar with it, so I don't have an opinion.





That's a different issue, and one in which we are in agreement. But Hess showed with Googs and Crotti that fans get under his skin. If the point here is that he should not ref because of that -- count me in. I don't think that's the point the trustee was making, though, nor the reason there are articles about it. And again, it is only one man's assertion that this happened in the first place as far as I know.

In any event, I need to go take a shower after having to stick up for Hess, even in a "get more evidence before you condemn" manner. Not gonna waste a lot of bandwidth keeping him from the mob when I would like to hold a pitchfork m'self.

You mean this won't turn into a 15 page thread where you defend Karl Hess like others defend Kentucky? :cool:

Also, how do you not recall this??


www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ha3S3kwAQE

[Reilly]

OPK, just come clean: that Ciudad Juarez tatoo gotten in the throes of post-Sun-Bowl-grief was of Karl Hess's face, whistle in mouth, wasn't it?

[Tom B.]

But Hess showed with Googs and Crotti that fans get under his skin.



Googs and Corchiani, not Crotty. Crotty played for Virginia.

The whole thing strikes me as kind of odd. I mean, the guy has refereed how many games in Cameron, where 1500 or so rowdy fans sit right on top of the court and shout all kinds of crap at you? And Hess just goes about his business. But one or two middle-aged guys sitting courtside say something, and he can't let it go? Weird.

[OldPhiKap]

You mean this won't turn into a 15 page thread where you defend Karl Hess like others defend Kentucky? :cool:

Also, how do you not recall this??


www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ha3S3kwAQE

Had not seen that before, clearly unwarranted no matter what the fan said.


OPK, just come clean: that Ciudad Juarez tatoo gotten in the throes of post-Sun-Bowl-grief was of Karl Hess's face, whistle in mouth, wasn't it?

Close. Lenny Wirtz.


Googs and Corchiani, not Crotty. Crotty played for Virginia.


Yup. dumb blinder. That's what I get for sitting on my Wirtz.

[Duvall]

I had read a headline on this story (perhaps somewhere else) that framed the issue that way.

In any event, the gentleman making the accusation is a member of the board of trustees of Wake. If they want to take action, I am sure they can do so and put forward whatever evidence they have.

As far as a "corroborating witness" standard, I flip the question -- what is there to make me believe that the gentleman heard Hess correctly, or that the story is true or false, beyond the fact that I don't like the way Hess conducts himself as a referee? Perceived credibility based upon my biases that I just don't like the way the guy refs?

But why? Why are you subjecting a simple factual claim to this extra level of scrutiny when there has been literally no countervailing evidence offered?

[OldPhiKap]

But why? Why are you subjecting a simple factual claim to this extra level of scrutiny when there has been literally no countervailing evidence offered?

I am going on the assumption that Hess denies it, otherwise action would have already been taken.

If that assumption is wrong, someone can send a link and we can get back to talking about how great Kentucky is.

[Henderson]

Let's throttle down and recap.

A guy tweeted that Karl Hess said something incredibly offensive.

Luke DeCock reported the tweet and wrote a atory about the tweet.

Did Karl Hess do that? That's the question.

What is the evidence? The guy said so on twitter. That's it.

No one has corroborated that.

So how does that set of facts make it true?

If a stripper says guys assaulted her in a bathroom, without corroboration, can that be reported responsibly as fact? Just based on what she says?

If a young woman says she was brutally attacked at a frat house with no corroboration, can that be reported responsibly as fact? Just based on what she says?

That's the problem with one-source reporting: people sometimes say stuff that isn't true. That's why good journalism requires some corroboration before one person's story is reported as fact.

It may or may not have happened, but you can't assume it's true just because one person said it. Otherwise, we are all vulnerable to baseless allegations. Brother says you dumped a pot roast on his head? Gotta be true, without further evidence. I say you sold me drugs? Gotta be true without corroborating evidence?

See the problem with one-source reporting? It literally is Jounalism 101. And that is where Luke DeCock's story falls down. What this guy tweeted may or may not have happened, but you don't report it without corroboration.

And (more importantly) we as readers shouldn't assume something happened just because one person says so. That'd be Critical Thinking 101.

[OldPhiKap]

Let's throttle down and recap.

A guy tweeted that Karl Hess said something incredibly offensive.

Luke DeCock reported the tweet and wrote a atory about the tweet.

Did Karl Hess do that? That's the question.

What is the evidence? The guy said so on twitter. That's it.

No one has corroborated that.

So how does that set of facts make it true?

If a stripper says guys assaulted her in a bathroom, without corroboration, can that be reported responsibly as fact? Just based on what she says?

If a young woman says she was brutally attacked at a frat house with no corroboration, can that be reported responsibly as fact? Just based on what she says?

That's the problem with one-source reporting: people say stuff that isn't true. That's why good journalism requires some corroboration before one person's story is reported as fact.

It may or may not have happened, but you can't assume it's true just because one person said it. Otherwise, we are all vulnerable to baseless allegations. Brother says you dumped a pot roast on his head? Gotta be true, without further evidence. I say you sold me drugs? Gotta be true without corroborating evidence?

See the problem with one-source reporting? It literally is Jounalism 101. And that is where Luke DeCock's story falls down. What this guy tweeted may or may not have happened, but you don't report it without corroboration.

And (more importantly) we as readers shouldn't assume something happened just because one person says so. That'd be Critical Thinking 101.

^^^^ What he said (better than I did). And, beyond the examples Henderson gives, in this case there should be no question that there are corroborating witnesses one way or the other. This event did not transpire in a random home -- it happened (if at all) in a public arena filled with people sitting right by the guy.


And Kentucky is going indefeated in the regular season. Every thread needs to say so.

[Henderson]

Bill Bradlee wouldn't let Woodward and Bernstein publish anything without at least 2 credible sources. And not because of the gravity of the issue. It really is basic journalism.

[Kfanarmy]

I can't remember watching a game KH officiated the past few years and being able to not notice him. At some point it seems an atrocious call/nocall or histrionic display draws your attention to him...and makes me wish he was elsewhere besides the game I'm interested in.

OTOH, I have watched a few WBB games this year, and would never, ever, save for a moral terpitude accusation, trade him for a WBB official. They are normally competent in applying one or two rules in a game but act as though they've never heard of the rest, inconsistency is the name of their game...if a ref calls hand checks; she won't call full on shoves, if she likes to call blocks and charges, she will never notice the hack on the arm, I've seen girls' HS basketball games with better officiating talent.

So, while he may be the worst official of MBB, there are probably a whole lot of folks, watching worse refereeing in WBB, who would be glad to have him.

[77devil]

Bill Bradlee wouldn't let Woodward and Bernstein publish anything without at least 2 credible sources. And not because of the gravity of the issue. It really is basic journalism.

Nether would Ben, but Bill Bradley had a great jump shot. (-:

[Henderson]

:cool:
Nether would Ben, but Bill Bradley had a great jump shot. (-:

:cool: Good one: yes, Ben Bradlee.

[Owen Meany]

Let's throttle down and recap.

A guy tweeted that Karl Hess said something incredibly offensive.

Luke DeCock reported the tweet and wrote a atory about the tweet.

Did Karl Hess do that? That's the question.

What is the evidence? The guy said so on twitter. That's it.

No one has corroborated that.

So how does that set of facts make it true?

If a stripper says guys assaulted her in a bathroom, without corroboration, can that be reported responsibly as fact? Just based on what she says?

If a young woman says she was brutally attacked at a frat house with no corroboration, can that be reported responsibly as fact? Just based on what she says?

That's the problem with one-source reporting: people sometimes say stuff that isn't true. That's why good journalism requires some corroboration before one person's story is reported as fact.

It may or may not have happened, but you can't assume it's true just because one person said it. Otherwise, we are all vulnerable to baseless allegations. Brother says you dumped a pot roast on his head? Gotta be true, without further evidence. I say you sold me drugs? Gotta be true without corroborating evidence?

See the problem with one-source reporting? It literally is Jounalism 101. And that is where Luke DeCock's story falls down. What this guy tweeted may or may not have happened, but you don't report it without corroboration.

And (more importantly) we as readers shouldn't assume something happened just because one person says so. That'd be Critical Thinking 101.

I agree with all of this. I don't care for Hess. But this is a charge that could be very detrimental to him personally and professionally. I certainly do not see the harm in waiting to see if he did, in fact, make the comment. I do not think it is a "simple factual claim" just because someone has made the accusation. I also don't think finding one other person who heard this qualifies as an "extra level of scrutiny" - this should be the minimal level of scrutiny before someone is branded a racist. And as for the "literally no countervailing evidence offered" - this just happened, I'm not sure how you can prove you didn't say something, and I don't think its wise to require people to prove they did not do something.

All of that said, Hess hasn't been accused by some nameless person on the internet. So I will not be surprised if something was said. If so, there will be many witnesses and the truth will come out. But there seems to be very little to lose, and much to gain, by waiting until then.

[cf-62]

Had not seen that before, clearly unwarranted no matter what the fan said.

OPK, I remember watching that live -- and having a distaste for Smart after his back-to-back games against Memphis earlier that year. I was quite smug while I watched thinking "I knew this guy was screwy." But after everything came to light, I give the kid props for not PUNCHING the fan, who had his (obviously quite expensive) season tickets revoked by Texas Tech and was disavowed by the athletic department.

And while we can sit here and say "there's no excuse for that," I disagree. We have to stop looking at everything in RIGHT and WRONG terms. There are shades of grey. Was it an OVER-reaction? Yes. He was suspended for 3 games, I believe.

The thing I remember most about the situation was how the initial reports were that a racial slur was used, and how Smart could have lied and said that happened (which in our PC world would have made him seem justified more so than simply reacting), but he didn't. He immediately said that there wasn't a racial element to the comments -- that they were just rude and offensive.

[BD80]

OPK, just come clean: that Ciudad Juarez tatoo gotten in the throes of post-Sun-Bowl-grief was of Karl Hess's face, whistle in mouth, wasn't it?


...

Close. Lenny Wirtz.

Yup. dumb blinder. That's what I get for sitting on my Wirtz.

So how do you get the Wirtz tattoo to blow its whistle?

[Duvall]

It may or may not have happened, but you can't assume it's true just because one person said it. Otherwise, we are all vulnerable to baseless allegations.

That certainly seems to be the chief concern here.

[Tripping William]

So how do you get the Wirtz tattoo to blow its whistle?

We're right on the verge of TMI, y'all. T . . . . . M . . . . . I! :o

[OldPhiKap]

So how do you get the Wirtz tattoo to blow its whistle?

It's really more of a toot than a whistle.

[Tripping William]

It's really more of a toot than a whistle.

Even still, I'm glad you chose Lenny Wirtz and not Richard Paparo.

[94duke]

Even still, I'm glad you chose Lenny Wirtz and not Richard Paparo.

Yeah, that would really s***, Richard.

[OldPhiKap]

Even still, I'm glad you chose Lenny Wirtz and not Richard Paparo.


Yeah, that would really s***, Richard.

It would also be illegal in Georgia.

[alteran]

And Kentucky is going indefeated in the regular season. Every thread needs to say so.

Indefeated - the quality of being both undefeated and invincible.

[OldPhiKap]

Indefeated - the quality of being both undefeated and invincible.

They cannot lose if they tried. They're THAT good.

[BD80]

Indefeated - the quality of being both undefeated and invincible.


They cannot lose if they tried. They're THAT good.

They can't even beat themselves. unlike carolina

[cspan37421]

If a stripper says guys assaulted her in a bathroom, without corroboration, can that be reported responsibly as fact? Just based on what she says?

If a young woman says she was brutally attacked at a frat house with no corroboration, can that be reported responsibly as fact? Just based on what she says?


If the accused is a college student, sadly yes. But that doesn't make it right. And it's going to cost colleges mega-millions by the time lawsuits force a return to a fair balance. Taxpayers too, probably.

But is-ought and all that. Your point is VERY well-made.

Henderson: wish I could spork you! Extra points for going beyond citing Journalism 101 (true but tired) and citing Critical Thinking 101.

[tallguy]

Apparently Hess is out as an ACC official


David Glenn Show @DavidGlennShow
Multiple sources told @DavidGlennShow and @ACCSports the ACC is ending its relationship with controversial BB official Karl Hess. More soon.
9:05 AM - 9 Jan 2015

[weezie]

Oh man! But he's the man that I love to hate!

[OldPhiKap]

Apparently Hess is out as an ACC official

AAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww wwwwwwwww . . . . . . . . . SEE Y'A!!!!!!!

[devildeac]

Boo-freakin-hoo.


Guess there may have been some merit to Giglio's tweet or the acc just got tired of controversy following king karl while working for the conference.