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Henderson
01-03-2015, 11:59 AM
Almost all D1 players, including Duke players, play AAU ball. Kobe is cranky about it and wants those damn kids off his lawn. http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/12114523/kobe-bryant-says-european-players-more-skilled-americans-blames-aau

Acymetric
01-03-2015, 12:27 PM
Almost all D1 players, including Duke players, play AAU ball. Kobe is cranky about it and wants those damn kids off his lawn. http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/12114523/kobe-bryant-says-european-players-more-skilled-americans-blames-aau

I'm not sure you understood his point...kind of hard to argue against isn't it? AAU is not generally great at developing players and advancing their skills, not exactly an old crotchety man moment for Kobe.

TheTrain
01-03-2015, 12:48 PM
I'm not sure you understood his point...kind of hard to argue against isn't it? AAU is not generally great at developing players and advancing their skills, not exactly an old crotchety man moment for Kobe.

Kobe is speaking the truth
The quality of basketball has diminished in a material way at all levels.

vick
01-03-2015, 12:50 PM
I'm not sure you understood his point...kind of hard to argue against isn't it? AAU is not generally great at developing players and advancing their skills, not exactly an old crotchety man moment for Kobe.

If AAU were really so destructive to skill levels, wouldn't you expect the fundamentals we can most easily measure--free throw percentage and turnovers--to have declined? As it happens, last year was the best year in NCAA history for free throw shooting, and average turnovers were by far the lowest since 1993 (when data is available--the slower pace of play partially explains this, but not fully). Maybe it's possible that the supposed terrible influence of AAU on fundamentals only shows up in, I dunno, pick-setting and boxing out but not on free throws and turnovers, but to me the more likely explanation is that the story of a substantial skills decline is a myth. Although as a point in Kobe's favor, if he's just talking about the European pro system vs. high school, he may have a point--but AAU vs. high school coaches? I don't think so.

sagegrouse
01-03-2015, 01:31 PM
If AAU were really so destructive to skill levels, wouldn't you expect the fundamentals we can most easily measure--free throw percentage and turnovers--to have declined? As it happens, last year was the best year in NCAA history for free throw shooting, and average turnovers were by far the lowest since 1993 (when data is available--the slower pace of play partially explains this, but not fully). Maybe it's possible that the supposed terrible influence of AAU on fundamentals only shows up in, I dunno, pick-setting and boxing out but not on free throws and turnovers, but to me the more likely explanation is that the story of a substantial skills decline is a myth. Although as a point in Kobe's favor, if he's just talking about the European pro system vs. high school, he may have a point--but AAU vs. high school coaches? I don't think so.

The Euro players tend to enter sports academics (i.e., clubs like Real Madrid) when in their early teens and all players, regardless of height, learn all the skills -- dribbling, shooting passing, the Euro-step, and more. The former Soviet-bloc countries have physkultura training in just about every sport.

I believe AAU ball has improved and basketball camps have helped with skills and team play, but it may not be as good as the training overseas.

FerryFor50
01-03-2015, 01:36 PM
What sort of fundamentals is he talking about?

Jacking up a 21.3 shots per game in a year where he's obviously in the twilight of his career and shooting just 37% from the field?

Taking over 5 three pointers per game despite hitting only 29% of them?

Averaging 3.7 turnovers per game?

Missing the most shots in NBA history for his career?

I understand he's on a shoddy team and thinks he needs to shoot more, but let's not forget that they beat the Warriors without him.

He's the last person I want to hear talk about "fundamentals" and AAU ball ruining basketball.

Kdogg
01-03-2015, 06:24 PM
Not that I disagree with him, but this argument has been going on for over a decade. It's another consequence of the NBA rookie salary scale and further advanced by the one and done rule. It doesn't help that ESPN's Sports Center has spent the last two decades highlighting dunks and three pointers although there seems to be less focus the last couple of years.



What sort of fundamentals is he talking about?

Jacking up a 21.3 shots per game in a year where he's obviously in the twilight of his career and shooting just 37% from the field?

Taking over 5 three pointers per game despite hitting only 29% of them?

Averaging 3.7 turnovers per game?

Missing the most shots in NBA history for his career?

I understand he's on a shoddy team and thinks he needs to shoot more, but let's not forget that they beat the Warriors without him.

He's the last person I want to hear talk about "fundamentals" and AAU ball ruining basketball.

I don't think anybody would criticize Kobe's fundamentals or his understanding of the game. He's like second all time in number of NBA all-defensive team selections. That's the end of the court were you learn the fundamentals of the game. The guy might be a jerk, but he is a senior statesmen of the game.

rocketeli
01-03-2015, 06:37 PM
I think the idea that the "AAU" is destroying basketball is a myth...but another myth is in play--where is this money he keeps talking about? Remember the AAU sponsors literally thousands of basketball teams and is composed of amateur players and volunteer coaches--sure a few elite teams get travel expenses and equipment and I'm sure Worldwide Wes and his ilk provide a few kickbacks, but that's about it.

Kdogg
01-03-2015, 07:05 PM
I think the idea that the "AAU" is destroying basketball is a myth...but another myth is in play--where is this money he keeps talking about? Remember the AAU sponsors literally thousands of basketball teams and is composed of amateur players and volunteer coaches--sure a few elite teams get travel expenses and equipment and I'm sure Worldwide Wes and his ilk provide a few kickbacks, but that's about it.

Some of those coaching are not doing it 'just for the kids."

http://collegebasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/08/06/yet-another-aau-coach-gets-a-high-major-assistant-position/
http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/college/2014/10/11/prep-school-aau-coaches-making-easier-jump-college-assistant-jobs/17138445/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/washington-area-aau-coaches-moving-to-college-ranks-bringing-basketball-prospects-with-them/2012/07/26/gJQAMjCQCX_story.html
http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/24555861/is-keelon-lawson-now-the-nations-top-assistant-coaching-candidate
http://johnclay.bloginky.com/2011/06/09/newest-trend-in-recruiting-hire-the-aau-coach/

This is a bit different then Larry Brown hiring Danny Manning's father or John Calipari hiring Dajuan Wagner's dad, or Bill Self hiring Mario Chalmers' dad, etc...

Wahoo2000
01-04-2015, 12:57 AM
I think the idea that the "AAU" is destroying basketball is a myth...but another myth is in play--where is this money he keeps talking about? Remember the AAU sponsors literally thousands of basketball teams and is composed of amateur players and volunteer coaches--sure a few elite teams get travel expenses and equipment and I'm sure Worldwide Wes and his ilk provide a few kickbacks, but that's about it.

Wow on this one. I sincerely wish I could return to this level of innocence. College basketball was more fun then (football too).....

And FWIW, I'm NOT mocking you. I honestly wish I could believe that the vast majority of high-major AAU programs weren't basically being run as businesses for profit.

Des Esseintes
01-04-2015, 06:37 AM
The Euro players tend to enter sports academics (i.e., clubs like Real Madrid) when in their early teens and all players, regardless of height, learn all the skills -- dribbling, shooting passing, the Euro-step, and more. The former Soviet-bloc countries have physkultura training in just about every sport.

I believe AAU ball has improved and basketball camps have helped with skills and team play, but it may not be as good as the training overseas.

If the training overseas were better, wouldn't we be seeing American players increasingly pushed aside in favor of the superior Europeans? Except that hasn't happened at all. There is a solid contingent of Euro guys, as well as representation from elsewhere around the globe, but Americans continue to comprise the bulk of drafted players. Moreover, there haven't been many foreign superstars of late. When Tony Parker, Dirk, Manu, etc. were coming up, you could at least make the argument that foreign development was better. But who are the best Euro players now? The Gasols are great, but Pau is past is his prime. While Antetokuompo is exciting, his development is taking place primarily *within* the NBA, and he's nothing like a sure bet. Mirotic looks great, but he's probably never going to sniff being a top ten guy. There are some others with nice potential--J-Val, Elfrid Payton--but not many that are really likely to move the needle. So if Euro development is so much better, where are the results?

rocketeli
01-04-2015, 08:53 AM
Wow on this one. I sincerely wish I could return to this level of innocence. College basketball was more fun then (football too).....

And FWIW, I'm NOT mocking you. I honestly wish I could believe that the vast majority of high-major AAU programs weren't basically being run as businesses for profit.

And I'm not mocking you but go ahead and educate me--with some facts to back up your assertion.

dyedwab
01-04-2015, 12:15 PM
...but as Mike DeCoursey points out, it would be useful if Kobe had any of his facts right

http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/story/2015-01-04/kobe-bryant-comments-interview-espn-aau-international-lakers-espn-european-world-championships?modid=http%3A%2F%2Ft.co%2FCgOkQzyvHY

FerryFor50
01-04-2015, 05:18 PM
There are some others with nice potential--J-Val, Elfrid Payton--but not many that are really likely to move the needle. So if Euro development is so much better, where are the results?

Elfrid is from Louisiana.

I think you meant Dante Exum

Des Esseintes
01-04-2015, 05:40 PM
Elfrid is from Louisiana.

I think you meant Dante Exum

Actually, I'm thinking of the German dude with the Hawks. Exum is not a Euro player, AND he's a massive developmental project. His high school league in Australia was an incredibly low level of play. If he becomes a superstar, which I hope he does because he's exciting to watch, it will be a testament to the Utah Jazz's development arm, not the Australian instructional leagues.

sagegrouse
01-04-2015, 05:45 PM
Actually, I'm thinking of the German dude with the Hawks. Exum is not a Euro player, AND he's a massive developmental project. His high school league in Australia was an incredibly low level of play. If he becomes a superstar, which I hope he does because he's exciting to watch, it will be a testament to the Utah Jazz's development arm, not the Australian instructional leagues.

I may be somewhat out of it, but I always assumed Dante Exum was somehow related to former Terp player Exree Hipp, who I am sure is not a Euro player.

arnie
01-04-2015, 06:06 PM
I may be somewhat out of it, but I always assumed Dante Exum was somehow related to former Terp player Exree Hipp, who I am sure is not a Euro player.

Close, his dad played for the other corrupt team in this area. Don't know his dad's major.

FerryFor50
01-04-2015, 06:21 PM
Actually, I'm thinking of the German dude with the Hawks. Exum is not a Euro player, AND he's a massive developmental project. His high school league in Australia was an incredibly low level of play. If he becomes a superstar, which I hope he does because he's exciting to watch, it will be a testament to the Utah Jazz's development arm, not the Australian instructional leagues.

Oops. My bad.

Dennis Schroeder is the one you were thinking of. :p

luvdahops
01-05-2015, 12:26 PM
If the training overseas were better, wouldn't we be seeing American players increasingly pushed aside in favor of the superior Europeans? Except that hasn't happened at all. There is a solid contingent of Euro guys, as well as representation from elsewhere around the globe, but Americans continue to comprise the bulk of drafted players. Moreover, there haven't been many foreign superstars of late. When Tony Parker, Dirk, Manu, etc. were coming up, you could at least make the argument that foreign development was better. But who are the best Euro players now? The Gasols are great, but Pau is past is his prime. While Antetokuompo is exciting, his development is taking place primarily *within* the NBA, and he's nothing like a sure bet. Mirotic looks great, but he's probably never going to sniff being a top ten guy. There are some others with nice potential--J-Val, Elfrid Payton--but not many that are really likely to move the needle. So if Euro development is so much better, where are the results?

I am biased as a Bulls fan, of course, but I think Mirotic has the potential to be a Top 10 guy in a few years. He is averaging 8 ppg and 5 rpg in 18 mpg, and has forced his way into the Bulls' rotation despite the presence of 3 talented and established frontcourt veterans in Gasol, Noah and Gibson. And the 8 ppg is coming with him still not shooting as consistently as expected and usually being no better than a 4th or 5th option on the floor. Mirotic is much more active and physical than expected, while possessing all the traits of a classic stretch 4, including the ability to run the floor. He is not just a spot up shooter, but excels at taking the ball to the rack and occasionally dishing to teammates for open jumpers. Thibs' has been experimenting with him at the 3 a bit lately, which may result in an increase in PT. If so, it would not shock me to see Mirotic win Rookie of the Year honors this year with Jabari out. He'll get a fair number of votes regardless.

I don't like to be in the position of defending Kobe, but does the reference to the Gasol brothers suggest that he was speaking mainly about big men? If so, he may have more of a point. I would guess that roughly a third of NBA teams have a Euro-trained starting center, and that most teams have a least one Euro-trained center or power forward on their roster, if not in their regular rotation.

Billy Dat
01-05-2015, 03:50 PM
If the training overseas were better, wouldn't we be seeing American players increasingly pushed aside in favor of the superior Europeans? Except that hasn't happened at all. There is a solid contingent of Euro guys, as well as representation from elsewhere around the globe, but Americans continue to comprise the bulk of drafted players. Moreover, there haven't been many foreign superstars of late. When Tony Parker, Dirk, Manu, etc. were coming up, you could at least make the argument that foreign development was better. But who are the best Euro players now? The Gasols are great, but Pau is past is his prime. While Antetokuompo is exciting, his development is taking place primarily *within* the NBA, and he's nothing like a sure bet. Mirotic looks great, but he's probably never going to sniff being a top ten guy. There are some others with nice potential--J-Val, Elfrid Payton--but not many that are really likely to move the needle. So if Euro development is so much better, where are the results?

Jeff Bradley ‏@JerseyJBradley 1h1 hour ago
If it weren't for AAU Ball, Team USA would beat everyone by 70, not just 50.

Henderson
01-05-2015, 04:35 PM
Jeff Bradley ‏@JerseyJBradley 1h1 hour ago
If it weren't for AAU Ball, Team USA would beat everyone by 70, not just 50.

And if kids would stay off my damn lawn and Vince Lombardi were the coach, Team USA would beat everyone by 90.

Assuming they walk uphill in the snow to practice then back home uphill in the snow every day like Kobe did.

Billy Dat
01-05-2015, 05:23 PM
And if kids would stay off my damn lawn and Vince Lombardi were the coach, Team USA would beat everyone by 90.

Assuming they walk uphill in the snow to practice then back home uphill in the snow every day like Kobe did.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qWv8f4Pijs&t=6m24s

throatybeard
01-05-2015, 06:39 PM
Kobe Cranky About ______

Note bene: you could put almost any noun phrase after that preposition, and the felicity conditions would still be satisfied.

ChillinDuke
01-05-2015, 09:43 PM
I dunno. Is his general point really all that crazy?

I'm no fan of Kobe, but I respect the guy. And his terrible season aside, I'm not sure I completely disagree with him.

There are aspects of the article that seem a bit inflammatory (not sure if that's just ESPN fishing or not). But his general point of Europeans being better at fundamentals does not feel like an outlandish view.

A simple Wikipedia search yields the following (and perhaps you already knew this):
- In 1990-1991: 21 international players on NBA rosters
- '91-'92: 23 on NBA rosters
- '00-'01: 45 on NBA rosters
- '10-'11: 84 on opening day rosters
- '13-'14: 92 opening day
- '14-'15: 101 opening day

It's an undeniable fact that the amount of international players on rosters has been increasing for 20+ years. There are surely many reasons why, and it would seem pretty likely to me that "better player" is a tough exclude from the top 3 (or top 1) of them.

- Chillin


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foreign_NBA_players
http://www.nba.com/2014/news/10/28/international-players-on-opening-day-rosters-2014-15/index.html