Ultimate X-Factor: Marshall Plumlee

[DavidBenAkiva]

After yesterday's game against Toledo, Coach K mentioned that he would consider playing Marshall Plumlee alongside Jahlil Okafor. I, for one, look forward to seeing how this might play out over the course of the conference season. Plumlee started to get consistent minutes during conference play last season. He was mostly filling a gaping hole the team had at the post position. This season, the team has a hole on the bench since Semi Ojeleye decided to transfer. If Plumlee and Okafor can coexist on the court for 5-10 minutes a game, this Duke team could take a leap forward.

On Offense
This is the biggest question; Can the two towers coexist? I think so. The offense generally runs through Okafor. Amile Jefferson doesn't get offense run for him, so Plumlee can step into his role of setting screens and rolling to the basket when the defense collapses on Okafor. He's an excellent offensive rebounder, like Jefferson, but has the added advantage of superior athleticism. Jefferson is a much better ball handler and has been showing the occasional mid-range jumper. Plumlee doesn't do those things, but you can live with him setting screens and rolling to the hoop for 5-10 minutes a game. When Okafor sits, the offense runs through the guards. We've seen it work, although it is not the prettiest thing in the world.

On Defense
Here's where having Plumlee play 20 minutes a game could really help. By virtue of being tall and a good jumper, Plumlee is a very good shot blocker. He can disrupt shots and, even though averaging a shade under 10 minutes a game, has racked up 10 blocks in 11 games. That's good for second on the team. Imagine a team having to go through Okafor and Plumlee at the rim. Just having that length out there for 10 minutes a night would shake up the defense.

I'm really looking forward to seeing a twin towers lineup out there for 5-10 minutes a game in the near future. Hopefully it works out!

[Henderson]

There would be obvious negative trade offs, but I too would like to see it experimented with a little. Might rattle some opponents and mess with future game-planning.

BTW, I wonder if someone at home commented on Marshall's parted 'do over break....

[DukieInBrasil]

After yesterday's game against Toledo, Coach K mentioned that he would consider playing Marshall Plumlee alongside Jahlil Okafor. I, for one, look forward to seeing how this might play out over the course of the conference season. Plumlee started to get consistent minutes during conference play last season. He was mostly filling a gaping hole the team had at the post position. This season, the team has a hole on the bench since Semi Ojeleye decided to transfer. If Plumlee and Okafor can coexist on the court for 5-10 minutes a game, this Duke team could take a leap forward.

On Offense
This is the biggest question; Can the two towers coexist? I think so. The offense generally runs through Okafor. Amile Jefferson doesn't get offense run for him, so Plumlee can step into his role of setting screens and rolling to the basket when the defense collapses on Okafor. He's an excellent offensive rebounder, like Jefferson, but has the added advantage of superior athleticism. Jefferson is a much better ball handler and has been showing the occasional mid-range jumper. Plumlee doesn't do those things, but you can live with him setting screens and rolling to the hoop for 5-10 minutes a game. When Okafor sits, the offense runs through the guards. We've seen it work, although it is not the prettiest thing in the world.

On Defense
Here's where having Plumlee play 20 minutes a game could really help. By virtue of being tall and a good jumper, Plumlee is a very good shot blocker. He can disrupt shots and, even though averaging a shade under 10 minutes a game, has racked up 10 blocks in 11 games. That's good for second on the team. Imagine a team having to go through Okafor and Plumlee at the rim. Just having that length out there for 10 minutes a night would shake up the defense.

I'm really looking forward to seeing a twin towers lineup out there for 5-10 minutes a game in the near future. Hopefully it works out!

Plus, not many teams have 2 7 footers. If both share the court for a few minutes, then one of them would likely have a serious size/skill mismatch. Which could be beneficial for us, but that cuts both ways too.
In addition to the MP3-Jahlil combo, there's a few other combos with our bigs that we could test out some more:MP3-Amile, MP3-Justise, Amile-Justise. I'm sure those have all been used at least a few times this year, but if the Twin Towers idea goes forward, we may need the other options as well.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Are we that far in the season already? Is it "MP3 needs more minutes" time?

/checks watch

[Kedsy]

This season, the team has a hole on the bench since Semi Ojeleye decided to transfer.

Semi hardly played. I don't understand what you mean by "a hole on the bench."


Plumlee doesn't do those things, but you can live with him setting screens and rolling to the hoop for 5-10 minutes a game.

As you point out, Amile is a better offensive player than Marshall. Increasing Marshall's minutes at the expense of Amile will hurt the offense, whether we can live with it or not.


When Okafor sits, the offense runs through the guards. We've seen it work, although it is not the prettiest thing in the world.

What's the relevance of the above statement to this topic? When Jahlil sits is currently when Marshall plays.



Here's where having Plumlee play 20 minutes a game could really help.

I think going from "Coach K mentioned that he would consider playing Marshall Plumlee alongside Jahlil Okafor" to "Plumlee play 20 minutes a game" is quite a leap. Having seen the way Coach K has employed Marshall so far, I find it difficult to imagine Marshall's minutes getting anywhere close to 20 mpg.


If Plumlee and Okafor can coexist on the court for 5-10 minutes a game, this Duke team could take a leap forward.


By virtue of being tall and a good jumper, Plumlee is a very good shot blocker. He can disrupt shots and, even though averaging a shade under 10 minutes a game, has racked up 10 blocks in 11 games. That's good for second on the team. Imagine a team having to go through Okafor and Plumlee at the rim. Just having that length out there for 10 minutes a night would shake up the defense.

While it's true Marshall is a much better shotblocker than Amile, he's a much [i]worse defensive rebounder. He's also a worse defender in general, doesn't communicate on D nearly as well as Amile, and probably will have many more problems guarding mobile PFs one-on-one. Frankly, I think subbing in Marshall for Amile will make the defense less effective, not more. Doesn't mean we can't try it for a few minutes, but I can't see how playing Marshall more will help "this Duke team... take a leap forward."

Against the six top 100 teams that we've played so far, Marshall has averaged 7.3 mpg. If he could really bring to the game the positives you're attributing to him, that number would already be higher.


I'm really looking forward to seeing a twin towers lineup out there for 5-10 minutes a game in the near future.

I think we'll be lucky if we see it for more than a few minutes a game.

[bbosbbos]

In K's era has he ever played twin towers before?

[yancem]

Are we that far in the season already? Is it "MP3 needs more minutes" time?

/checks watch

I'm not sure the OP was necessarily saying MP3 needs more minutes so much as playing him along side Okafor gives Duke a different look. I think that is something that K should experiment with over the next few games to see if a twin tower set can be implemented effectively. As was stated earlier, not many teams can put 2 7ft's on the floor at the same time which could make opposing teams adjust to us and away from their normal/comfortable line-ups. It would also mean less time of Winslow at the 4 which I think is less than ideal but up to now, it seems like the only option when Jefferson is out. Plus if we ever face KY, we may need MP3 to play more minutes to counter their size so getting the team used to the line-up now could help later.

I don't know if the idea will actually work but I'm definitely curious and we have a couple of easyish games coming up so why not give it a try?

[Duvall]

In K's era has he ever played twin towers before?

Not since way back in 2013. Or 2012, if you only count playing two post players that can't shoot.

[Kedsy]

Here's where having Plumlee play 20 minutes a game could really help.


I'm not sure the OP was necessarily saying MP3 needs more minutes so much as playing him along side Okafor gives Duke a different look.

I think he was saying both.

[wilko]

It would be an interesting strategy in spots for certain team match-ups... but as an ongoing change to the team dynamic - I'm not sure I see it being sustainable in the long term..

Marshall needs to prove he can catch the ball securely and score consistently from Jah passing out of a double team.
I think at this point Amile may have better hands and quickness, but nowhere near Marshall's mass to bang.

It has advantages and tradeoffs depending on the match-up

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

...
While it's true Marshall is a much better shotblocker than Amile, he's a much worse defensive rebounder. He's also a worse defender in general, doesn't communicate on D nearly as well as Amile, and probably will have many more problems guarding mobile PFs one-on-one. Frankly, I think subbing in Marshall for Amile will make the defense less effective, not more. Doesn't mean we can't try it for a few minutes, but I can't see how playing Marshall more will help "this Duke team... take a leap forward." ...

Kedsy, you have clearly forgotten how these threads work - Board Poster A points to one nice dunk or block in a game from MP3 and decides MP3 should play more minutes. Board Poster B points to defensive lapses, bad fouls, or flubbed passes and says that they trust Coach K to determine who needs more minutes, as he sees everyone daily and we watch 5 minutes of MP3 twice a week.

BPA says that leaning on the "Coach K knows better" defense is ridiculous because everyone makes mistakes. BPB points out all the rings and victories and uses that as rationale for assuming he has a better grasp on players' potential and who should play when. BPA says doubting the coach is not being a bad fan, and then the conversation degenerates into whether you can be a true Duke fan if you don't have blind faith in either MP3's huge upside or in Coach K's infallibility.

By this point, we have reached the next game, where MP3 either doesn't play enough, or has one more impressive play (and perhaps 3 poor ones) and we hit repeat.

At no point in this discussion is their room for rational discussion like you listed above. I will trust you fall into form for the next 20 iterations of this debate over the next three months.

Go Duke!
Go MP3!
Go K!

[CajunDevil]

That is an intriguing idea that I'd like to see a few times. I think Kedsy makes a good point about the high value of Amile's defensive communication and being a better defensive rebounder, however Marshall brings a nice change of pace from shot blocking and general energy perspectives. For 2-3 minutes at a time it would be interesting to see...

[yancem]

In K's era has he ever played twin towers before?

Off the top of my head, Duke has paired Ferry and Laettner/Abdelnaby in '89, Laettner and Abdelnaby in '90, Laettner and Parks some in '92, Parks and Meeks in 95, Williams and McRoberts in '06, Zoubek/MP1/MP2 some in '10 and MP1/MP2 and Kelly in '11 & '12 and MP2 and Kelly in '13. Now, I believe that only Zoubek and MP3 are/were considered true 7ft's while the rest were 6'10"-6'11" (and Williams was only 6'9" but played center) but Okafor is listed as 6'11" so I would think most if not all of the above combinations constitute a twin towers line-up (at least by college standards).

[jv001]

It would be an interesting strategy in spots for certain team match-ups... but as an ongoing change to the team dynamic - I'm not sure I see it being sustainable in the long term..

Marshall needs to prove he can catch the ball securely and score consistently from Jah passing out of a double team.
I think at this point Amile may have better hands and quickness, but nowhere near Marshall's mass to bang.

It has advantages and tradeoffs depending on the match-up

Playing both Jah and Marshall at the same time also raises the chances of Marshall getting in foul trouble more quickly. If that happens early, we really don't have anyone that can give Jah breathers and we don't need Jah pacing himself. We need for the big guy to run the court like he did last night. I don't see Marshall and Jah together on the court more than one or two minutes at the most. GoDuke!

[OldPhiKap]

Kedsy, you have clearly forgotten how these threads work - Board Poster A points to one nice dunk or block in a game from MP3 and decides MP3 should play more minutes. Board Poster B points to defensive lapses, bad fouls, or flubbed passes and says that they trust Coach K to determine who needs more minutes, as he sees everyone daily and we watch 5 minutes of MP3 twice a week.

BPA says that leaning on the "Coach K knows better" defense is ridiculous because everyone makes mistakes. BPB points out all the rings and victories and uses that as rationale for assuming he has a better grasp on players' potential and who should play when. BPA says doubting the coach is not being a bad fan, and then the conversation degenerates into whether you can be a true Duke fan if you don't have blind faith in either MP3's huge upside or in Coach K's infallibility.

By this point, we have reached the next game, where MP3 either doesn't play enough, or has one more impressive play (and perhaps 3 poor ones) and we hit repeat.

At no point in this discussion is their room for rational discussion like you listed above. I will trust you fall into form for the next 20 iterations of this debate over the next three months.

Go Duke!
Go MP3!
Go K!

So -- which poster compares the other one to Hitler first? Godwin's Law must be appeased.

[Henderson]

Semi hardly played. I don't understand what you mean by "a hole on the bench."



As you point out, Amile is a better offensive player than Marshall. Increasing Marshall's minutes at the expense of Amile will hurt the offense, whether we can live with it or not.



What's the relevance of the above statement to this topic? When Jahlil sits is currently when Marshall plays.



I think going from "Coach K mentioned that he would consider playing Marshall Plumlee alongside Jahlil Okafor" to "Plumlee play 20 minutes a game" is quite a leap. Having seen the way Coach K has employed Marshall so far, I find it difficult to imagine Marshall's minutes getting anywhere close to 20 mpg.





While it's true Marshall is a much better shotblocker than Amile, he's a much [i]worse defensive rebounder. He's also a worse defender in general, doesn't communicate on D nearly as well as Amile, and probably will have many more problems guarding mobile PFs one-on-one. Frankly, I think subbing in Marshall for Amile will make the defense less effective, not more. Doesn't mean we can't try it for a few minutes, but I can't see how playing Marshall more will help "this Duke team... take a leap forward."

Against the six top 100 teams that we've played so far, Marshall has averaged 7.3 mpg. If he could really bring to the game the positives you're attributing to him, that number would already be higher.



I think we'll be lucky if we see it for more than a few minutes a game.

Given that you ripped the guy on every point he made, what would be "lucky" about seeing Marshall and Okafor play together in your view? I thought he was just riffing on K's comment yesterday and speculating. I recognize (as I'm sure the OP does) that there are negative tradeoffs, but K and some of us seem to think it's an interesting idea.

Maybe someone didn't get what he wanted for Christmas?

[jv001]

Given that you ripped the guy on every point he made, what would be "lucky" about seeing Marshall and Okafor play together in your view? I thought he was just riffing on K's comment yesterday and speculating. I recognize (as I'm sure the OP does) that there are negative tradeoffs, but K and some of us seem to think it's an interesting idea.

Maybe someone didn't get what he wanted for Christmas?

I agree the poster was reflecting off the Coach K comment after the game. But I disagree with the notion that Marshall can get 20 minutes a game. I love Marshall as much as the next guy and want to see him play well, but I don't think 20 minutes per game is going to happen this season. Maybe next year out of necessity but not this season. GoDuke!

[yancem]

I think he was saying both.

Well if you're going to point out actual quotes then I guess I will have to agree but I felt like his main point wasn't so much he needs more minutes as what the twin tower dynamic might bring to the table. I'm not sure it would work, but I do think it is worth taking a look at. MP3 is a bit of an enigma but then again, so were both his brothers for much of their careers at Duke. They both eventually got it and are now both doing fairly well (MP2 quite well the past couple of weeks) in the nba. Maybe MP3 will blossom some time this year or next. We can hope, at least.

[Henderson]

I agree the poster was reflecting off the Coach K comment after the game. But I disagree with the notion that Marshall can get 20 minutes a game. I love Marshall as much as the next guy and want to see him play well, but I don't think 20 minutes per game is going to happen this season. Maybe next year out of necessity but not this season. GoDuke!

20 is too high. Agreed. But the concept is interesting. Coach K was the one who brought it up.

[Kedsy]

Given that you ripped the guy on every point he made, what would be "lucky" about seeing Marshall and Okafor play together in your view? I thought he was just riffing on K's comment yesterday and speculating. I recognize (as I'm sure the OP does) that there are negative tradeoffs, but K and some of us seem to think it's an interesting idea.

Maybe someone didn't get what he wanted for Christmas?

I didn't "rip" anything. I merely disagreed with several of his points. I don't think I was rude or impolite in any way, so what's wrong with pointing out why I disagree?

To answer your question, we'll be lucky to see the two paired together for a few minutes to satisfy curiosity, to give us a different look for a few minutes, and because some people want to see it. I don't see anything wrong with that. I probably would see something wrong with playing Marshall 20 mpg.

[ricks68]

Kedsy, you have clearly forgotten how these threads work - Board Poster A points to one nice dunk or block in a game from MP3 and decides MP3 should play more minutes. Board Poster B points to defensive lapses, bad fouls, or flubbed passes and says that they trust Coach K to determine who needs more minutes, as he sees everyone daily and we watch 5 minutes of MP3 twice a week.

BPA says that leaning on the "Coach K knows better" defense is ridiculous because everyone makes mistakes. BPB points out all the rings and victories and uses that as rationale for assuming he has a better grasp on players' potential and who should play when. BPA says doubting the coach is not being a bad fan, and then the conversation degenerates into whether you can be a true Duke fan if you don't have blind faith in either MP3's huge upside or in Coach K's infallibility.

By this point, we have reached the next game, where MP3 either doesn't play enough, or has one more impressive play (and perhaps 3 poor ones) and we hit repeat.

At no point in this discussion is their room for rational discussion like you listed above. I will trust you fall into form for the next 20 iterations of this debate over the next three months.

Go Duke!
Go MP3!
Go K!

Badda-bing!

Maybe we should have a "sticky" for this absolutely perfect summation of what goes on regarding this kind of scenario that is repeated over and over again on the boards with just different names substituted.

Well done Mountain Devil. Have a Ninjabreadman Porter on me.;)

ricks

[jv001]

Well if you're going to point out actual quotes then I guess I will have to agree but I felt like his main point wasn't so much he needs more minutes as what the twin tower dynamic might bring to the table. I'm not sure it would work, but I do think it is worth taking a look at. MP3 is a bit of an enigma but then again, so were both his brothers for much of their careers at Duke. They both eventually got it and are now both doing fairly well (MP2 quite well the past couple of weeks) in the nba. Maybe MP3 will blossom some time this year or next. We can hope, at least.

Marshall needs to have better hands, improve his defensive rebounding and get a go to move down low. Mason and Miles eventually got all three of these things and like you said they are doing fairly well in the NBA. Marshall just needs to work on these things and his time will come. GoDuke!

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Badda-bing!

Maybe we should have a "sticky" for this absolutely perfect summation of what goes on regarding this kind of scenario that is repeated over and over again on the boards with just different names substituted.

Well done Mountain Devil. Have a Ninjabreadman Porter on me.;)

ricks

Sir yes sir. Any interest in an afternoon game tomorrow with said porter?

[sagegrouse]

In K's era has he ever played twin towers before?

All the damned time:

1989: Ferry and Laettner, 15 or 16 times
1992: Laettner and Parks, 3 times
1999: Brand and Burgess, 11-13 times
2003: Two of Shel, Shav, Sanders, and Horvath, seemingly 25 times
2004: Shel, Shav and Nick, 10-11 times
2005: Shel and Shav, 25 times
2006: Shel and Josh, 31 times

[Kedsy]

Marshall needs to have better hands, improve his defensive rebounding and get a go to move down low. Mason and Miles eventually got all three of these things and like you said they are doing fairly well in the NBA. Marshall just needs to work on these things and his time will come. GoDuke!

Maybe. At least with regard to defensive rebounding, it wasn't eventual so much as his brothers got it after their freshman seasons:

Defensive rebounding percentage:

MP3
freshman: 13.4%
sophomore: 14.1%
junior: 15.5%

MP2
freshman: 15.1%
sophomore: 23.3%
junior: 24.4%
senior: 23.3%

MP1
freshman: 14.8%
sophomore: 22.1%
junior: 17.8%
senior: 22.7%

So maybe Marshall's learning curve is just longer than the other two? Hopefully he'll get it by next season.

[sagegrouse]

Here's more:

2011: MP1 and MP2, 5 times
2012: MP1, MP2, and Kelly, 34 times assuming that all three never started the same game
2013: MP2 and Kelly, 23 times

Yep, you can argue that Ferry and Kelly were inside-out players, but they were 6-10 and qualify as towers.

[jv001]

Maybe. At least with regard to defensive rebounding, it wasn't eventual so much as his brothers got it after their freshman seasons:

Defensive rebounding percentage:

MP3
freshman: 13.4%
sophomore: 14.1%
junior: 15.5%

MP2
freshman: 15.1%
sophomore: 23.3%
junior: 24.4%
senior: 23.3%

MP1
freshman: 14.8%
sophomore: 22.1%
junior: 17.8%
senior: 22.7%

So maybe Marshall's learning curve is just longer than the other two? Hopefully he'll get it by next season.

Thanks Kedsy for the numbers. I also hope he get's it by next season. Which brings up a question regarding the three Plumlees. Do you think Marshall is as athletic as his older brothers and do you see him reaching the level of play that those two have exhibited? By my eye test, I could see Miles and Mason being very good players, but I'm not as sold on Marshall. I would like to know what you think. GoDuke!

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Thanks Kedsy for the numbers. I also hope he get's it by next season. Which brings up a question regarding the three Plumlees. Do you think Marshall is as athletic as his older brothers and do you see him reaching the level of play that those two have exhibited? By my eye test, I could see Miles and Mason being very good players, but I'm not as sold on Marshall. I would like to know what you think. GoDuke!

At the risk of opening myself up to attack from the defenders, I do feel that MP3 is a step slower in picking up the nuances of the game that his brothers did. This is absent of any math or statistics, just my impressions from watching Plumlees for years and years.

I don't think it is a question of athleticism. He seems to have a similar explosive potential to his game. It just doesn't seem to have "clicked" for him yet. I would love for him to have a Zoubek-ian moment of clarity, and I certainly wouldn't rule it out for Marshall. Sometimes it can be something as simple as taking an extra half second when the ball comes to you a few possessions in a row, and then building on the resulting confidence (and inspiring said confidence in teammates).

So, I would love to see him reach the same level of play as his brothers. All qualify as what I would consider "late bloomers" on the basketball court, which also seems to be frequent with "big guys" who can get by with their size until they hit college. Re-training all the fundamentals and skill moves when you are 18-20 is much more difficult than being drilled with it every step fof the way.

[Kedsy]

Thanks Kedsy for the numbers. I also hope he get's it by next season. Which brings up a question regarding the three Plumlees. Do you think Marshall is as athletic as his older brothers and do you see him reaching the level of play that those two have exhibited? By my eye test, I could see Miles and Mason being very good players, but I'm not as sold on Marshall. I would like to know what you think. GoDuke!

I think Marshall is a lot more athletic than most people give him credit for, but not nearly as athletic as Mason or Miles. I don't think he'll get to their level if he continues to try to do what they did or be a high-flying energy guy. My guess is that if he has an NBA future, it will be as a big body -- a back-to-the-basket, defense-and-rebound guy who comes off the bench to lean on the opposing center and expend fouls.

Right now, he doesn't really do any of that. I think it's both a growth/learning thing and a mindset thing. Despite what some characterize as negativity on my part, I am definitely rooting for him to get there.

[Bob Green]

I think Marshall is a lot more athletic than most people give him credit for...

Kedsy is talking about people like me. I believe his lack of athleticism is holding back his development. He still looks like a baby giraffe out there at times. There are lots of positives such as his ability to run the court and improved free throw shooting. But he still struggles to catch the ball - both passes and rebounds, cannot finish through contact and has horrible timing when jumping either to block a shot or grab a rebound.

[OldPhiKap]

Marshall is a valuable member of the team because he brings energy and is happy to defend the blocks physically. He can rebound and bang down low. His 7-8 minutes a game is important, but I do not see sitting Oak or Amile. There will be games where foul trouble (or God forbid, injuries) may expand his role and I trust he will be ready to meet those expanded expectations. For now, I think he is progressing nicely and doing exactly what he is asked to do on a championship-capable team.

LGD.

[Henderson]

Kedsy is talking about people like me. I believe his lack of athleticism is holding back his development. He still looks like a baby giraffe out there at times. There are lots of positives such as his ability to run the court and improved free throw shooting. But he still struggles to catch the ball - both passes and rebounds, cannot finish through contact and has horrible timing when jumping either to block a shot or grab a rebound.

Respectfully, I think he's improved a LOT this year, despite his limitations. Gripping the ball seems to be one, and I've made my views known on that score. I also agree with Kedsy that he's not likely to reach his brothers' potential. But he IS improving and has another year-and-two-thirds. So let's not unduly underestimate his upside in our thinking. Zoubs made his mark as a senior, and before that I cringed when he entered a game. So I'll have what OPK is having.

[OldPhiKap]

Respectfully, I think he's improved a LOT this year, despite his limitations. Gripping the ball seems to be one, and I've made my views known on that score. I also agree with Kedsy that he's not likely to reach his brothers' potential. But he IS improving and has another year-and-two-thirds. So let's not unduly underestimate his upside in our thinking. Zoubs made his mark as a senior, and before that I cringed when he entered a game. So I'll have what OPK is having.

The light came on for Zoubeard in the second Marylanf game IIrC, about five weeks before the tournament started.

Seniors can do incredible things when the end is nigh. If Marshall keeps plugging away, Nd performs when called upon, he can end the season with a ring. In whatever role he is called upon to fill.

[mattman91]

Badda-bing!

Maybe we should have a "sticky" for this absolutely perfect summation of what goes on regarding this kind of scenario that is repeated over and over again on the boards with just different names substituted.

Well done Mountain Devil. Have a Ninjabreadman Porter on me.;)

ricks

Better hurry...I went to ABC on Coxe last night and noticed it was smudged off of the chalkboard. They still had it, but they are obviously running low.

[Bob Green]

Respectfully, I think he's improved a LOT this year, despite his limitations. Gripping the ball seems to be one, and I've made my views known on that score. I also agree with Kedsy that he's not likely to reach his brothers' potential. But he IS improving and has another year-and-two-thirds. So let's not unduly underestimate his upside in our thinking. Zoubs made his mark as a senior, and before that I cringed when he entered a game. So I'll have what OPK is having.

I agree with you, he has improved a LOT this year. Hopefully, he continues to improve as the game or two or three is going to come when we need him to play 10 minutes or more due to Okafor being in foul trouble. I am not trying to underestimate his upside, I am trying to be objective.

[Henderson]

I agree with you, he has improved a LOT this year. Hopefully, he continues to improve as the game or two or three is going to come when we need him to play 10 minutes or more due to Okafor being in foul trouble. I am not trying to underestimate his upside, I am trying to be objective.

I share your realism. He does seem to be responding well to PT. Or maybe that's just natural progression, though not all players improve with PT or maturity. MP3 is getting up there in college age, so it's not unfair to expect him to reach his potential soon, whatever that is. Go MP3! We can use all 7 feet of you!

[NSDukeFan]

The light came on for Zoubeard in the second Marylanf game IIrC, about five weeks before the tournament started.

Seniors can do incredible things when the end is nigh. If Marshall keeps plugging away, Nd performs when called upon, he can end the season with a ring. In whatever role he is called upon to fill.

Pretty sure that was the first Md game as the second was at Maryland where Greivis hits crazy shots to nip Duke and edge Scheyer for POY in the conference.

[OldPhiKap]

Pretty sure that was the first Md game as the second was at Maryland where Greivis hits crazy shots to nip Duke and edge Scheyer for POY in the conference.

Correct, I stand corrected. But the time frame is probably about right.

[NSDukeFan]

Correct, I stand corrected. But the time frame is probably about right.

I believe the time frame is exactly right. But the second Maryland game was the team's last loss that season, I believe.

[Furniture]

Kedsy, you have clearly forgotten how these threads work - Board Poster A points to one nice dunk or block in a game from MP3 and decides MP3 should play more minutes. Board Poster B points to defensive lapses, bad fouls, or flubbed passes and says that they trust Coach K to determine who needs more minutes, as he sees everyone daily and we watch 5 minutes of MP3 twice a week.

BPA says that leaning on the "Coach K knows better" defense is ridiculous because everyone makes mistakes. BPB points out all the rings and victories and uses that as rationale for assuming he has a better grasp on players' potential and who should play when. BPA says doubting the coach is not being a bad fan, and then the conversation degenerates into whether you can be a true Duke fan if you don't have blind faith in either MP3's huge upside or in Coach K's infallibility.

By this point, we have reached the next game, where MP3 either doesn't play enough, or has one more impressive play (and perhaps 3 poor ones) and we hit repeat.

At no point in this discussion is their room for rational discussion like you listed above. I will trust you fall into form for the next 20 iterations of this debate over the next three months.

Go Duke!
Go MP3!
Go K!

This post really made me laugh out loud. It's so spot on...

[53n206]

I will take anyone who can block that driving lane to the goal that we have seen so many times in the past, and recently against Toledo. It seems that frequently an opposing player gets a card that says" drive directly to the basket, Do not pass go."

[CajunDevil]

I'd argue that Marshall is a very good athlete, in the same ballpark as his brothers. His coordination seems to be lacking at this point but not his athleticism. Also, having short arms tends to limit his effectiveness relative to Amile, whose long arms allow him to snatch rebounds when you'd think he has no shot at getting them. As for Marshall's NBA potential, It's still up in the air. Remember at this point in MP1's career a number of folks, myself included, thought he'd have more success as an NFL tight end, but he's doing just fine in the League.

[Furniture]

I think marshal is growing. He is more confident and as of late the game is slowing down for him.

[HK Dukie]

Might K be wanting to experiment with twin towers in prep for a potential match-up with UK down the road? I am in full support. Let's see how this works and what we need to do to improve. Lineup flexibility is key for the tournament. With UK's historically large lineup it would be nice to be able to switch up our look.

It almost certainly won't happen but UK-Duke finals would probably be the most watched college basketball game of all time.

In that case someone needs to make up some "I still love Laettner" t-shirts for the game.

[vick]

Might K be wanting to experiment with twin towers in prep for a potential match-up with UK down the road? I am in full support. Let's see how this works and what we need to do to improve. Lineup flexibility is key for the tournament. With UK's historically large lineup it would be nice to be able to switch up our look.

It seems to me that the problem with playing Marshall extended minutes against Kentucky is that Kentucky's best offensive trait is its phenomenal offensive rebounding, and Marshall has been a mediocre defensive rebounder for a center or power forward since he has been at Duke. Certainly to the degree you are taking any minutes from Amile, it seems like a significant negative on that count.

[OldPhiKap]

1. K usually counters a big team by going small and quick.

2. K's comment in the press conference was just that -- a passing comment. I do not expect a regular diet of Oak and MP3 but K will "look at it"

3. If Amile gets in foul trouble against a big team though, I could see MP3 and Oak in at the same time for brief periods -- which means K might try it on the floor at some point first to see how it works in a real game. But I would not take that to portend a steady line-up change unless MP3 bumps Amile. And no slight to MP3 -- Amile is one of our steadiest players so far this year.

[jv001]

1. K usually counters a big team by going small and quick.

2. K's comment in the press conference was just that -- a passing comment. I do not expect a regular diet of Oak and MP3 but K will "look at it"

3. If Amile gets in foul trouble against a big team though, I could see MP3 and Oak in at the same time for brief periods -- which means K might try it on the floor at some point first to see how it works in a real game. But I would not take that to portend a steady line-up change unless MP3 bumps Amile. And no slight to MP3 -- Amile is one of our steadiest players so far this year.

My thoughts exactly. Coach K has mentioned the word Zone a few times while talking to the media and we know zone defense is hardly used. Personally, I would like to see it a few times in some games. Maybe November and December games before conference play to see if the team could catch on to the nuisances of playing it. GoDuke!

[mgtr]

My thoughts exactly. Coach K has mentioned the word Zone a few times while talking to the media and we know zone defense is hardly used. Personally, I would like to see it a few times in some games. Maybe November and December games before conference play to see if the team could catch on to the nuisances of playing it. GoDuke!

I have no idea whether you meant what you wrote, or you meant to write "nuances." But it doesn't matter, since "nuisances" fits very well and is funny.

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

Might K be wanting to experiment with twin towers in prep for a potential match-up with UK down the road? I am in full support. Let's see how this works and what we need to do to improve. Lineup flexibility is key for the tournament. With UK's historically large lineup it would be nice to be able to switch up our look.

It almost certainly won't happen but UK-Duke finals would probably be the most watched college basketball game of all time.

In that case someone needs to make up some "I still love Laettner" t-shirts for the game.

We should for sure start a "Coach K is adjusting line up to contend with Kentucky" Thread... that would make three Kentucky threads on the board wooohooo!!!!

[jv001]

I have no idea whether you meant what you wrote, or you meant to write "nuances." But it doesn't matter, since "nuisances" fits very well and is funny.

I think the word I was looking for was nuances(a subtle or slight degree of differences). But it could be a nuisance for Coach K( inconvenient, annoying or bother) :cool: GoDuke!

[Indoor66]

We should for sure start a "Coach K is adjusting line up to contend with Kentucky" Thread... that would make three Kentucky threads on the board wooohooo!!!!

Especially in light of the certainty of such a game. :cool:

[Kfanarmy]

...Right now, he doesn't really do any of that. I think it's both a growth/learning thing and a mindset thing. Despite what some characterize as negativity on my part, I am definitely rooting for him to get there. An interesting position, given two years arguing that his minutes shouldn't be increased / he shouldn't take minutes from anyone and reiterating the position WRT this idea.

I'm not sure how one roots for a player while arguing he shouldn't have time on the court. Perhaps practice will set him up to step on the court and get 20 and 20 in his 5 minutes to earn the trust necessary to try this approach, but I suspect that talent is more likely to develop with a bit more game time. Some of the bigs seem to need more time on the court to get their motor running. He may simply need more time, but we won't ever see the development if he's not on the court.

I think experimentation at this point in the season is preparation for the end of the year, even if it involves someone who's stats aren't where they might be. Amile is doing a heck of a job, but when there are opportunities-when there is a low likelihood of an L, I say experiment.

Potential is never achieved without opportunity.

[Kedsy]

He may simply need more time, but we won't ever see the development if he's not on the court.

Just because we may not see it, doesn't mean it isn't happening. I expect Marshall to be a strong contributor next season no matter how much he plays this season.


I'm not sure how one roots for a player while arguing he shouldn't have time on the court.

Well, if you're not sure, perhaps you shouldn't make such definitive statements about it. Personally, I am sure that I can root for Marshall and still think that the team will perform better with him in a 10-minute role than in a 20-minute role. Especially since increasing Marshall's minutes will necessarily decrease someone else's. If you want Marshall's minutes to go up, does that mean you don't root for the player whose minutes would go down if it happens?

[DavidBenAkiva]

I posted this thread last night and then walked out the door. I come back and see three pages of speculation about Marshall's athletic ability, understanding of the game, and whether he should even be on the court.

Coach K said it himself: He's going to take a look at seeing MP3 and Okafor on the court at the same time. I take that to mean that Marshall could see his minutes go from about 10 minutes (which is where it is now) to 15 or 20 minutes in a blowout. Those 5 to 10 minutes might mean Amile and Jahlil get some rest during the difficult ACC schedule. It might also mean that Duke shows a Twin Towers lineup for a few minutes a game to shake things up.

It's all about giving a different look for a short period of time. Let me emphasize this again: for a short period of time. Basketball is a game of runs. We've seen some crazy lineups and defenses out there from K over the years. There was a brief flirtation with a zone defense in 2011, I believe. Mile and Mason have shared the court on more than one occasion. K seeks to exploit weaknesses. Going up against a big team? How about Duke showing a lineup with Okafor, three guards, and Justise Winslow. Try to keep up with that.

Having a team with twin towers out there could muck up a team that tries to get close to the basket but doesn't have extreme height. Duke goes on a run, opens things up for 5 minutes, and then reverts to the default lineup. That's all I have suggested. I'd like to see if it works.

[OldPhiKap]

I root for all of our players equally.

I do not root for all of our players to get equal minutes.

Go Duke!

[Henderson]

I root for all of our players equally.

I do not root for all of our players to get equal minutes.

Go Duke!

Case in point: walk ons. Everyone roots for them, yet no one argues for more minutes.

[Henderson]

I posted this thread last night and then walked out the door. I come back and see three pages of speculation about Marshall's athletic ability, understanding of the game, and whether he should even be on the court.

Coach K said it himself: He's going to take a look at seeing MP3 and Okafor on the court at the same time. I take that to mean that Marshall could see his minutes go from about 10 minutes (which is where it is now) to 15 or 20 minutes in a blowout. Those 5 to 10 minutes might mean Amile and Jahlil get some rest during the difficult ACC schedule. It might also mean that Duke shows a Twin Towers lineup for a few minutes a game to shake things up.

It's all about giving a different look for a short period of time. Let me emphasize this again: for a short period of time. Basketball is a game of runs. We've seen some crazy lineups and defenses out there from K over the years. There was a brief flirtation with a zone defense in 2011, I believe. Mile and Mason have shared the court on more than one occasion. K seeks to exploit weaknesses. Going up against a big team? How about Duke showing a lineup with Okafor, three guards, and Justise Winslow. Try to keep up with that.

Having a team with twin towers out there could muck up a team that tries to get close to the basket but doesn't have extreme height. Duke goes on a run, opens things up for 5 minutes, and then reverts to the default lineup. That's all I have suggested. I'd like to see if it works.

I get your primary point and have already agreed. But 20 mpg is too much. Maybe next year.

[Kfanarmy]

Just because we may not see it, doesn't mean it isn't happening. I expect Marshall to be a strong contributor next season no matter how much he plays this season.



Well, if you're not sure, perhaps you shouldn't make such definitive statements about it. Personally, I am sure that I can root for Marshall and still think that the team will perform better with him in a 10-minute role than in a 20-minute role. Especially since increasing Marshall's minutes will necessarily decrease someone else's. If you want Marshall's minutes to go up, does that mean you don't root for the player whose minutes would go down if it happens? I don't believe that full development is gained in practice. You've argued against virtually anything to do with Marshall playing for two years. I'm sure you've given full support to him, except in the specifics of him actually playing. Given that he wants to play basketball, are you saying you support him as one human being generically supports another?

Yes actually some of us root for players who need to rest for a while, understanding that the statistics might mean Duke would win if the individual played 40 per game, but realizing the statistics wouldn't support the idea if the player actually had to play 40 minutes per game. It is a looong season, spreading minutes to the bench is a good thing, often for both the starter and the sub - certainly for the development of the latter, hopefully not to the detriment of the starter.

[Saratoga2]

Yes actually some of us root for players who need to rest for a while, understanding that the statistics might mean Duke would win if the individual played 40 per game, but realizing the statistics wouldn't support the idea if the player actually had to play 40 minutes per game. It is a looong season, spreading minutes to the bench is a good thing, often for both the starter and the sub - certainly for the development of the latter, hopefully not to the detriment of the starter.

Part of the reason to have them play minutes, particularly in games against weak opponents, is to let them gain experience in actual game conditions. Another part of the reason is to keep the player happy so they don't bolt, like Semi. Who knows if at some time during the season we will have an occurrence where we could use a 6'8" strong power forward who is also a tremendous athlete. I even wonder about the team spirit with a disgruntled player in their midst. Kind of reminds me of the old saying happy wife, happy life. In this case I am extending that to happy players, happy team.

I don't see MP3 as likely to bolt of course, but can he stay upbeat when getting in so little?

[Bob Green]

I don't believe that full development is gained in practice. You've argued against virtually anything to do with Marshall playing for two years. I'm sure you've given full support to him, except in the specifics of him actually playing. Given that he wants to play basketball, are you saying you support him as one human being generically supports another?

Kedsy is clearly communicating he supports Marshall Plumlee as a Duke basketball player and desires to see him develop into a viable option for the team. Development can and does happen in practice. I agree with Kedsy, increasing Plumlee's playing time means decreasing Amile Jefferson or Jahlil Okafor's playing time, which is detrimental to the team. Plumlee is doing great in the 9-10 mpg role he is currently playing.

[Henderson]

Part of the reason to have them play minutes, particularly in games against weak opponents, is to let them gain experience in actual game conditions. Another part of the reason is to keep the player happy so they don't bolt, like Semi. Who knows if at some time during the season we will have an occurrence where we could use a 6'8" strong power forward who is also a tremendous athlete. I even wonder about the team spirit with a disgruntled player in their midst. Kind of reminds me of the old saying happy wife, happy life. In this case I am extending that to happy players, happy team.

I don't see MP3 as likely to bolt of course, but can he stay upbeat when getting in so little?


Kedsy is clearly communicating he supports Marshall Plumlee as a Duke basketball player and desires to see him develop into a viable option for the team. Development can and does happen in practice. I agree with Kedsy, increasing Plumlee's playing time means decreasing Amile Jefferson or Jahlil Okafor's playing time, which is detrimental to the team. Plumlee is doing great in the 9-10 mpg role he is currently playing.

I agree with Bob's last sentence. Marshall's PT has gone up every year, and this year has been behind an absolute stud in the middle. And he's exceeded (at least my) expectations. Saratoga makes a good related point though: Some players blossom with more PT. I think Marshall is one of those guys.

[Kfanarmy]

Kedsy is clearly communicating he supports Marshall Plumlee as a Duke basketball player and desires to see him develop into a viable option for the team. Development can and does happen in practice. I agree with Kedsy, increasing Plumlee's playing time means decreasing Amile Jefferson or Jahlil Okafor's playing time, which is detrimental to the team. Plumlee is doing great in the 9-10 mpg role he is currently playing.

Bob;

I'm of a different opinion. As I remember, the argument was made on multiple threads last year for a variety of reasons as to why MP3 should be getting less than, as I recall it was 7mpg, the playing time he was getting. Further he should take NO time from any players on the court. So support for MP3 might be stated, but not for him being on the court until he has proven himself.

I don't think his being on the court is detrimental to the team in the LONG run, especially if he gets more time against the lesser competition on Duke's schedule. I think players develop in the game much more quickly than on the bench. I certainly am not going to carp about coach K developing another tactical option.

[SlapTheFloor]

Out of curiosity, I just checked Amile's minutes so far this season. I assumed he was playing around 30mpg, but, in fact, he's only broken 30 twice (against Connecticut and Temple). In all other games, he's played between 20 and 25. That means about half of Winslow's playing time is at PF. That might be another reason to try a Marshall-Okafor combo.

[CDu]

I think the biggest reason for the consideration of playing Plumlee and Okafor together - even just for a bit - is an acknowledgement that there may be matchups down the road in which we can't get away with playing Winslow at PF for long stretches. For example, I don't think we'd fare well against UK or Arizona with Winslow logging big minutes at PF. Teams that will play two talented bigs for most (if not all) of the game are going to put a strain on our rotations.

We aren't likely to be able to play Jefferson for 40 minutes. As such we may need to steal 3-5 minutes each game with Plumlee playing alongside Okafor.

Maybe it never proves necessary. But it is an experiment probably worth testing in the event that it proves necessary.

[DavidBenAkiva]

It's happening right now!!!

[mr. synellinden]

Marshall is getting a lot of minutes today including a substantial portion as part of a twin towers lineup. And just as I type that Jahlil subs in for him.

[MChambers]

From the scacchoops box and related data, it looks like the Plumlee + Okafor lineup played three minutes and was plus 2. MP3 was in with the usual three perimeter starters.

Doing a little extrapolation (hey, if I don't someone else will), that works out to nearly + 27/40 minutes, meaning an almost national championship!