North Carolina rivalries. (Or, Dean Smith hates shaking your hand)

[CameronBornAndBred]

Interesting article on WRAL's sports page about the development of the rivalries between the four NC ACC schools.

There was once a time Duke, North Carolina, North Carolina State and Wake Forest all cheered for each other. A time during the Big Four Tournament that, when all four won on the same day, the region celebrated as if it were a holiday. Chants of “ACC!” united fan bases wearing blue, red and black. How and when did it all change?

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/genesis-of-the-triangle-rivalries/14287795/

(I grew up in the 70s, and I don't remember doing anything but smiling when the Tar Heels lost.)

[Lid]

Wow, some great stuff in there! Thanks for posting. Especially love the last bit about Bill George -- if true, that's a great story.

[devildeac]

Interesting article on WRAL's sports page about the development of the rivalries between the four NC ACC schools.


http://www.wralsportsfan.com/genesis-of-the-triangle-rivalries/14287795/

(I grew up in the 70s, and I don't remember doing anything but smiling when the Tar Heels lost.)

A time during the Big Four Tournament when they all won on the same day? My memory is getting fuzzy but I thought the four schools played each other during that "tournament" and not different foes so all four couldn't win on the same day. WRAL needs to do a bit more/better research on this one.

[CameronBornAndBred]

A time during the Big Four Tournament when they all won on the same day? My memory is getting fuzzy but I thought the four schools played each other during that "tournament" and not different foes so all four couldn't win on the same day. WRAL needs to do a bit more/better research on this one.
Further down, it is a bit clearer that he was talking about the Dixie Classic.

[devildeac]

Further down, it is a bit clearer that he was talking about the Dixie Classic.

Good. Thanks for clarifying. Glad they got that right. And I still never cheered for a unc win so we're both drinking from the same bottle of beer. Different glasses, of course:p.

[OldPhiKap]

Great article.

As far as recruiting rivalries and bad blood, Art Heyman's name has to be high on the list.

[77devil]

A time during the Big Four Tournament when they all won on the same day? My memory is getting fuzzy but I thought the four schools played each other during that "tournament" and not different foes so all four couldn't win on the same day. WRAL needs to do a bit more/better research on this one.

The Greensboro Coliseum never was nor has been as loud as it was during the Big Four tournament. During his first Big Four game (against UNC) Gene Banks was called for a technical foul for scoring on a break away after a whistle. He didn't hear it and neither did hardly anyone else. I was sitting behind the Duke bench and I didn't hear it. The coaching staff didn't hear it. It was loud.

[BigWayne]

Wow, some great stuff in there! Thanks for posting. Especially love the last bit about Bill George -- if true, that's a great story.
I remember that the story from when Bones McKinney would tell it on the broadcasts. I thought it was about him and a basketball player though.

[jv001]

I have to agree with the writer. Number one ACC player of all time is David Thompson and Number two ACC player of all time is Christian Laettner. GoDuke!

[Olympic Fan]

Further down, it is a bit clearer that he was talking about the Dixie Classic.

There was definitely a pro-Big Four vibe at the Dixie Classic. Locals were proud of the fact that in the 12 years of the classic, no outside team ever won.

Probably the greatest day in Big Four history was Dec. 31, 1958 -- the final day of the 1958-59 Dixie Classic.

It started with Wake beating Yale (an Ivy League contender) in the seventh place game.
Next, Duke beat Louisville in the fifth place game -- Louisville would reach the 1959 Final Four.
Next, UNC beat No. 2 Cincinnati (led by Oscar Robertson) in the third place game.
Finally, NC State (which had upset Cincinnati the day before in the semis) beat No. 8 Michigan State (with Jumping Johnny Green) in the title game.

I guarantee you that fans from the three rival Big Four schools cheered for the fourth Big Four team that day.

The UNC hate was just starting about that time. From 1946-56, NC State was the power and the team to beat. There was no ABC club for a mediocre UNC team. I don't recall people hating State. After UNC won in 1957, the growing arrogance of McGuire and the UNC fans -- and their were a lot more UNC fans than State, Duke or Wake fans -- created resentment. Plus, McGuire coached his teams to be punks -- UNC was involved in more fights on the court than the rest of the ACC put together ... until McGuire went to South Carolina and Roche, Ribock and company set new heights of thuggery.

My point is that by the end of the Dixie Classic in 1960-61, UNC hate, while growing, had not grown to he point where rival fans would pull against the Heels outside the ACC. And Duke hate was still far, far in the future.

The Big Four was a different story. Since it was all head-to-head among the Big Four teams, there wasn't much Big Four solidarity. It was a great event until Dean Smith -- and Dean Smith alone -- killed it.

[OldPhiKap]

The title of the thread is incomplete. Sure, Dean Smith hated shaking hands. He also hated children, puppies, and rainbows after a rain storm.

[Danke Shane]

Did the Big Four games count towards your ACC record? Or were those "out of conference" games against conference opponents?

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

They should do something similar now. Make it an early season challenge to garner more eyes to college hoops. Call it the Tobacco Road Challenge or classic, and get four highly ranked teams to come in and play Wake, State, UNC, and Duke in Greensboro or Charlotte. Get all the fans together for a big day of or 2 days of hoops. That would be a really fun event for the locals.

[FerryFor50]

The title of the thread is incomplete. Sure, Dean Smith hated shaking hands. He also hated children, puppies, and rainbows after a rain storm.

But I thought Dean Smith was "nothing but class"?:rolleyes:

[Tripping William]

But I thought Dean Smith was "nothing but class"?:rolleyes:

Rick Robey begs to differ.

[devildeac]

But I thought Dean Smith was founder of "no need for class"?:rolleyes:

FIFY.

[Olympic Fan]

Did the Big Four games count towards your ACC record? Or were those "out of conference" games against conference opponents?

The Big Four games were OOC games.

But remember, that was in an era when the ACC was seven teams, so you just had 12 ACC games. It really wasn't that big a burden. That might have had something to do with Dean's killing it -- the Big Four ended soon after Georgia Tech joined the ACC and the number of conference games rose to 14.

But the real reason was that Smith and UNC felt like they were carrying the rest of the Big Four at the box office. Allow me to explain.

There were a number of great events in the 50s, 60s and 70s that helped promote basketball in the state. The greatest was the Dixie Classic from 1950 (actually Dec. 1949) to Dec. 1960. Four outside teams played the Big Four in a tournament. Since it was a real tournament, the Big Four teams often met in the semifinals and finals (and consolation rounds). Those games did not count as conference games.

Dean didn't kill the Dixie Classic -- Governor Terry Sanford and UNC President William Friday did, in response to the gambling scandal at UNC and NC State.

The loss of the Dixie Classic left a holiday void that was filled by some lame doubleheaders in Reynolds (called the Triangle Classic) and Greensboro. Duke and Wake even played a non-conference game against each other in Greensboro for a couple of years. Nothing worked until the Big Four Tournament was born in Greensboro, starting in December of 1970. The first tournament fell short of a sellout, but it soon became such a huge event that it was only rivaled by the ACC Tournament in March. The four Big Four teams would play each other in a tournament format -- and again, the games didn't count in the ACC standings

Dean killed it (1) because he wanted to control his own schedule, but mainly because (2) he thought UNC was the reason that the Greensboro Coliseum filled up for the event. Arrogant as that was, there was some truth to it -- UNC could play an OOC game in Greensboro and pack the place. None of the other three Big Four schools could fill it up on their own -- or even in pairs.

He did the same thing to two events in Charlotte. One was the North-South Doubleheader in the old Coliseum on Independence Blvd. That would be a two night event that matched UNC and NC State against Clemson and South Carolina. The second night, the two North Carolina schools would switch opponents. Those games DID count in the conference standings -- each school would give up one conference home game a year.

The event started to slide after South Carolina pulled out after 1969 ... Clemson pulled out after 1973. The event continued with non-conference teams like Georgia Tech, Virginia Tech, St. Joseph's, Furman and The Citadel serving as opponents. But Dean killed it after 1984 because he thought UNC was singlehandedly providing the sellouts.

The same reasoning applied to the Tournament of Champions in the early 1990s. It started in 1988 with the idea that UNC and NC State would host a four-team tournament on alternate years. It worked out that way until Dean (and the tournament organizers) realized that UNC was selling out their years while the place was barely two-thirds full when State was hosting. Starting in 1992, UNC hosted every year.

Not saying that Dean was a crook or anything ... just that he only cared about what was best for UNC basketball -- not for what was vest for basketball in the state. He never hesitated to use UNC's clout to get what he wanted.

[Duvall]

This is muddled, I think:


The Coliseum in those days would be full more than an hour before the first game. It was packed. People would get there to watch the pregame drills. It started with the Duke section of the crowd and they started yelling at UNC about the final regular season game. And the UNC fans, which had about one-third of the Coliseum because they bought everybody else’s tickets, started yelling “J.R. Reid! J.R. Reid!” The Duke fans came back with “J.R. Can’t Read!” even though he had been accepted into both schools.

Dean Smith found out about everything. He got so mad about it that he made it into an issue. It was a big news story and Sports Illustrated did a big thing on it about SAT scores. As it turned out, J.R. made a legitimate, very good score.

As I recall, or rather recall reading, it was UNC's Scott Williams that had a very good SAT score, and Dean deliberately conflated the two to confuse the press.

[jimsumner]

The Greensboro Coliseum never was nor has been as loud as it was during the Big Four tournament. During his first Big Four game (against UNC) Gene Banks was called for a technical foul for scoring on a break away after a whistle. He didn't hear it and neither did hardly anyone else. I was sitting behind the Duke bench and I didn't hear it. The coaching staff didn't hear it. It was loud.

Banks was T'd up for dunking in a dead-ball situation. That was actually a rule for the first few years after the dunk was reinstated. No dunking during a dead ball.

[-jk]

I think that might still be the rule.

-jk

[77devil]

Banks was T'd up for dunking in a dead-ball situation. That was actually a rule for the first few years after the dunk was reinstated. No dunking during a dead ball.

That was my recollection but I wasn't sure after all the years so I hedged my words. Glad we have Jim around her to keep the facts straight.

[jimsumner]

I think that might still be the rule.-jk

You can't dunk in warm-ups once the officials arrive and you could probably be T'd for delay of game if you insist on dunking in a clearly dead-ball situation. But I do not believe you would be assessed a technical for quickly dunking after a whistle in a noisy arena.

I'm reminded of David Thompson being assessed a technical for dunking in what I believe was his final game at Reynolds. He knew it was against the rules but the game was already decided and he was David-freaking-Thompson for crying out loud.

I'm still mad at the NCAA for their moronic anti-dunking rule. Think of the Thompson dunks we were deprived of. Julius Erving couldn't dunk in college either. Makes me sick.

[-jk]

As I recall, our Bill Foster was instrumental in getting the dunk in NCAA ball.

-jk

[moonpie23]

I have a great "dean smith handshake" story......but i'm a little hesitant to share it...

[burnspbesq]

I have to agree with the writer. Number one ACC player of all time is David Thompson and Number two ACC player of all time is Christian Laettner. GoDuke!

Nope. Laettner is number three. Number two is Len Bias.

[burnspbesq]

You can't dunk in warm-ups once the officials arrive and you could probably be T'd for delay of game if you insist on dunking in a clearly dead-ball situation. But I do not believe you would be assessed a technical for quickly dunking after a whistle in a noisy arena.

I'm reminded of David Thompson being assessed a technical for dunking in what I believe was his final game at Reynolds. He knew it was against the rules but the game was already decided and he was David-freaking-Thompson for crying out loud.

I'm still mad at the NCAA for their moronic anti-dunking rule. Think of the Thompson dunks we were deprived of. Julius Erving couldn't dunk in college either. Makes me sick.

The last ABA championship series before the merger was Nets - Nuggets. Thompson against Ewing for seven games. Anybody who saw any of it will never forget it, and will talk your ear off about it if you give them half a chance.

[NSDukeFan]

Nope. Laettner is number three. Number two is Len Bias.

I disagree. Similar stats, similar post season all-American awards, but one had legendary post season results.

[davekay1971]

I disagree. Similar stats, similar post season all-American awards, but one had legendary post season results.

Agree with you NSDukeFan. Len Bias was phenomenal, and probably would have gone on to have an all-star caliber NBA career. But Christian had a far better college career. A lot of that was based on the post season...but the post season is part of the career. Laettner can, and should, point to those four final fours and 2 championships...and his role in all four of those post-season runs.

I'd argue that Len Bias is in the group below Thompson (the clear number 1) and Laettner (the clear number 2, imho), a group that includes ACC luminaries such as Jordan, Grant Hill, and others.

Fun mental game to pause for a moment and think of all the incredible talent that has come through the ACC, btw.

[Reilly]

The last ABA championship series before the merger was Nets - Nuggets. Thompson against E[rv]ing for seven games. Anybody who saw any of it will never forget it, and will talk your ear off about it if you give them half a chance.

So that's May 1 to May 13, 1976 .... looks like the *lowest* scoring game was 112-106 ... won in 6 by the Nets (Erving) ...

Found the scores, but I could not find the game-by-game boxscores on sports-reference.com:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYA/1976_games.html

[jv001]

Nope. Laettner is number three. Number two is Len Bias.

We'll just have to disagree on this one. Christian was not far behind DT for the best ACC player that I was blessed to see. Bias was great but a step below DT and Christian. One thing I loved about Laettner was he hated to lose. That shows up with his 4 Final Fours and 2 NCAA Championships. GoDuke!

[moonpie23]

Nope. Laettner is number three. Number two is Len Bias.

ix-nay......laettner is #2.....Imho

[Henderson]

Nope. Laettner is number three. Number two is Len Bias.

I'll go with Bias by a whisker but only based on his freakish talent. It's hard to compare the two, though, because Laettner had a better on-court coach and a much better team of alternative threats around him. Based on numbers and accomplishments, it's Laettner all the way. But Bias was a freak like Thompson was a freak like Maravich was a freak. Laettner had exceptional talent and a team and coach that made the most of his talents.

The what ifs around Bias are painful, and they start with what if he'd played on great teams for a great coach. We know where they end of course.

[jimsumner]

The extent to which we factor in post-season play is a big variable here. If we factor heavily for it then Laettner is the clear No. 2.

If not, then Ralph Sampson has to be in the discussion. Not only was he ACC POY three times, he also was consensus national POY three times. That's pretty darn impressive.

And Virginia did win the NIT in 1980 and advance to the FF in 1981. But they flamed out really early in 1982 and lost to State in the West Region final in 1983. Should he have been able to carry Virginia deeper or did Laettner just have better teammates?

[jv001]

The extent to which we factor in post-season play is a big variable here. If we factor heavily for it then Laettner is the clear No. 2.

If not, then Ralph Sampson has to be in the discussion. Not only was he ACC POY three times, he also was consensus national POY three times. That's pretty darn impressive.

And Virginia did win the NIT in 1980 and advance to the FF in 1981. But they flamed out really early in 1982 and lost to State in the West Region final in 1983. Should he have been able to carry Virginia deeper or did Laettner just have better teammates?

When I think of The Greats of the ACC, I include post season. I also consider playing under pressure. In my view, Christian was great in pressure situations. So was DT. I don't remember Ralph being so clutch. He may have been, but I don't remember him that way. GoDuke!

[budwom]

Not to go all geezer on this, but for those who watched the ACC in the late sixties and early seventies, there was an intensity, including hate, rarely matched today, between some schools.

Specifically, Frank McGuire's South Carolina teams had a feud with just about everyone, they played a very
physical brand of ball, they were very good, and damned Yankees besides. When they came to the Indoor Stadium, or Carmichael, you half expected a brawl to break out any minute, the tension was enormous.
As Olympic has probably mentioned in the past, there was bad blood between Duke and SC for a previous recruiting situation. Plus the Gamecocks played with enforcer John Ribock who made few on court friends (but ironically did a marvelous thing for a friend of mine some years later.)

I wrote for the Chronicle back then and even got a letter from a Gamecock writer who threatened to come punch me out for what I wrote about SC....funny thing was, it was barely literate, so I printed it verbatim in the Chronicle with lots of "sics."

[jimsumner]

Not to go all geezer on this, but for those who watched the ACC in the late sixties and early seventies, there was an intensity, including hate, rarely matched today, between some schools.

Specifically, Frank McGuire's South Carolina teams had a feud with just about everyone, they played a very
physical brand of ball, they were very good, and damned Yankees besides. When they came to the Indoor Stadium, or Carmichael, you half expected a brawl to break out any minute, the tension was enormous.
As Olympic has probably mentioned in the past, there was bad blood between Duke and SC for a previous recruiting situation. Plus the Gamecocks played with enforcer John Ribock who made few on court friends (but ironically did a marvelous thing for a friend of mine some years later.)

I wrote for the Chronicle back then and even got a letter from a Gamecock writer who threatened to come punch me out for what I wrote about SC....funny thing was, it was barely literate, so I printed it verbatim in the Chronicle with lots of "sics."

Before McGuire was head coach of a much-hated, overly-physical bunch of Yankees playing in Columbia, he was a head coach of a much-hated, overly-physical bunch of Yankees playing in Chapel Hill.

Back in those days, the ACC was plagued by fights. Actual fistfights. Lefty Driesell was once punched out by a South Carolina enforcer named John Ribock. Art Heyman v. UNC, Dave Budd v. UNC. The constant was Frank McGuire. He was the son of a tough Irish-American cop and he coached that way.

The recruiting controversy referenced by Buddy involved Mike Grosso, a very talented 6-9 player from McGuire's Greater NYC stomping ground. The ACC had an SAT minimum in those days and Grosso failed to meet the standard. But he enrolled at SC anyway, as the Gamecocks tried to get away with the fiction that he was a
walk-on whose tuition was paid for by family members.

In fact, SC was funneling money to the Grosso family. Duke AD Eddie Cameron and UNC AD Chuck Erickson brought this to the attention of the ACC, which ruled Grosso ineligible. He ended up at Louisville.

McGuire reacted by calling Cameron a snake in the grass and vowing retribution.

The rhetoric became so heated that the ACC offered Duke and Carolina the option of not playing their 1967 games against SC in the interest of safety. Duke took the option to not play, which is why Duke and SC only played 12 conference games in 1967.

As it turned out, the teams met in the ACCT semifinals. Everyone was on their best behavior and Duke won a close game, before losing to Carolina in the title game.

But the animosity lingered. I was in the student section in 1971 when Duke upset 10th-ranked South Carolina, McGuire's last visit to Duke. I agree that the atmosphere was as close to pure hatred as anything I've ever seen in an athletic contest. The genuine article.

South Carolina left the ACC following the 1971 season. The Grosso incident still lingered but the main reason was football's inability to recruit against SEC schools due to the ACC's SAT minimum. They became an independent and drifted into years of mediocrity.

Clemson had the same reservations but stayed and worked within the system and the courts eventually overturned the ACC rules.

One final word on McGuire and Duke. When he retired at SC, he was replaced by Duke's Bill Foster, which opened up a position that hasn't been vacant for a very, very long time.

[gotoguy]

It always rankled me that Smith had his players run off the floor at the games end without the traditional handshake. It seemed unsportsmanlike to this former hs player. Any of you experts know why?

[OldPhiKap]

It always rankled me that Smith had his players run off the floor at the games end without the traditional handshake. It seemed unsportsmanlike to this former hs player. Any of you experts know why?

Because Dean was a pompous, hypocritical blowhard who thought the basketball world revolved around him?

"The Carolina Way" -- point out the assists, and blow off the opponent. I mean, you were blessed enough to have the privilege of playing UNC -- you don't expect them to act like equals or anything, do you?

But I may not be wholly impatial here.

[jv001]

Because Dean was a pompous, hypocritical blowhard who thought the basketball world revolved around him?"The Carolina Way" -- point out the assists, and blow off the opponent. I mean, you were blessed enough to have the privilege of playing UNC -- you don't expect them to act like equals or anything, do you?

But I may not be wholly impatial here.

I agree Dean thought he was above the rules, the ACC and the game itself. Just like most UNC fans feel the program is above the rules, the ACC and the game itself. The other 25% are graduates of the school and are level headed fans. GoDuke!

[budwom]

It always rankled me that Smith had his players run off the floor at the games end without the traditional handshake. It seemed unsportsmanlike to this former hs player. Any of you experts know why?

Well, if you read what Mr. Sumner and I wrote above, I believe the no handshake tradition arose
during those nasty ACC games, and frankly it was a good idea back then. I'm not sure exactly when it began, but I know it was absolutely inconceivable teams would shake hands after those games. The hatred was
absolutely intense.

[arnie]

Well, if you read what Mr. Sumner and I wrote above, I believe the no handshake tradition arose
during those nasty ACC games, and frankly it was a good idea back then. I'm not sure exactly when it began, but I know it was absolutely inconceivable teams would shake hands after those games. The hatred was
absolutely intense.

Seems to me that the players get along today but the hatred is much more fan-based than years ago. I guess with all the games televised, fans have more familiarity with opposing players and coaches which enflames them. Very difficult for me at opposing arenas/stadiums even if Duke isn't the opponent. The fan vitriol and ref-blaming is over the top yet the players seem ok with everything at post game.

[OldPhiKap]

Seems to me that the players get along today but the hatred is much more fan-based than years ago. I guess with all the games televised, fans have more familiarity with opposing players and coaches which enflames them. Very difficult for me at opposing arenas/stadiums even if Duke isn't the opponent. The fan vitriol and ref-blaming is over the top yet the players seem ok with everything at post game.

A lot of the players get to know each other in AAU and national teams. I think that helps lessen the personal animosity. And they we're recruited by the same coaches and teams as well.

[jimsumner]

ACC teams used to shake hands before games, as part of the pre-game introductions. Until Danny Ferry and Virginia's Tom Sheehy almost unhinged each other's shoulder joints before one game. Didn't seem like such a good idea after that.

[OldPhiKap]

ACC teams used to shake hands before games, as part of the pre-game introductions. Until Danny Ferry and Virginia's Tom Sheehy almost unhinged each other's shoulder joints before one game. Didn't seem like such a good idea after that.

I think you mean Dan Meagher:

http://www.stcatharinesstandard.ca/2011/12/05/the-best-of-the-basketball-best

Sheehey was a thug. But Dan was no saint, either.

[jimsumner]

I think you mean Dan Meagher:

http://www.stcatharinesstandard.ca/2011/12/05/the-best-of-the-basketball-best

Sheehey was a thug. But Dan was no saint, either.

I thought it was Ferry. Or maybe both and Sheehy was the common factor.

Meagher grew up in Ontario and always brought a hockey player's mentality to the court. If it's in your way, go through it. Certainly got in Dean Smith's craw.

[Indoor66]

I thought it was Ferry. Or maybe both and Sheehy was the common factor.

Meagher grew up in Ontario and always brought a hockey player's mentality to the court. If it's in your way, go through it. Certainly got in Dean Smith's craw.

Dean always had a very tender craw.

[budwom]

Seems to me that the players get along today but the hatred is much more fan-based than years ago. I guess with all the games televised, fans have more familiarity with opposing players and coaches which enflames them. Very difficult for me at opposing arenas/stadiums even if Duke isn't the opponent. The fan vitriol and ref-blaming is over the top yet the players seem ok with everything at post game.

I think that's true. The Duke-unc fans don't get along, yet it's common to read about players from the respective schools hanging out at some of the same places (not classrooms, ha ha). I suspect it also helps that many of them know each from having played on AAU or national teams together.

[Henderson]

As long as we are on the topic, I'll say that the whole ritualized handshaking thing seems a bit odd.

[devildeac]

As long as we are on the topic, I'll say that the whole ritualized handshaking thing seems a bit odd.

Maryland football players agree:rolleyes:.

[cspan37421]

As long as we are on the topic, I'll say that the whole ritualized handshaking thing seems a bit odd.

At the risk of stating the obvious, I think it's ritualized sportsmanship. To show good will after the game is over. Even boxers "shake" hands before a fight by bumping gloved fists. NFL coaches shake hands after a game - college usually too.

Many times BB players shake before a game too. You certainly see it in Final Four.

Frankly I'm in favor of more sportsmanship in sports. I think it's good for the culture. But I'd be lying if I said I didn't take a little pleasure in seeing a player from my favorite teams "getting even" with a provocateur. It's unwise and foolish - usually the one retaliating gets caught - but it does provide a bit of emotional catharsis. It's like what Mark Twain said about swearing: "Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer."

[Reilly]

I think you mean Dan Meagher:

http://www.stcatharinesstandard.ca/2011/12/05/the-best-of-the-basketball-best

Sheehey was a thug. But Dan was no saint, either.


I thought it was Ferry. Or maybe both and Sheehy was the common factor. ...

What I recall is that at the center circle in a game in Cameron -- after "Meaghar spit in your face" had been a thing -- Ferry and Sheehey met at the center circle for the pre-game hand-slap/shake, and as they were slapping hands and Ferry was turning to run toward his teammates at the foul line, Sheehey tried to kick Ferry -- kicked at him. Center court. Pre-game. All eyes on those two players. I don't think a 'T' was called, but that's what I recall happening, and it was astounding to see that.

Those were the days when Duke was on its awesome run of beating Virginia every single game. Coach K often did his "speak to all the students in little clumps at a time" thing before the Virginia games, working his away around the lower bowl, getting the students psyched. Pretty wild/stoked atmospheres.

[luvdahops]

What I recall is that at the center circle in a game in Cameron -- after "Meaghar spit in your face" had been a thing -- Ferry and Sheehey met at the center circle for the pre-game hand-slap/shake, and as they were slapping hands and Ferry was turning to run toward his teammates at the foul line, Sheehey tried to kick Ferry -- kicked at him. Center court. Pre-game. All eyes on those two players. I don't think a 'T' was called, but that's what I recall happening, and it was astounding to see that.

Those were the days when Duke was on its awesome run of beating Virginia every single game. Coach K often did his "speak to all the students in little clumps at a time" thing before the Virginia games, working his away around the lower bowl, getting the students psyched. Pretty wild/stoked atmospheres.

Don't know if it happened before or after the game you reference above, but there was an incident during the '86 or '87 season where Ferry and Sheehey were lined up next to each other on a foul shout, and after the ball went up, Ferry hit Sheehey in the family jewels (replays made it look pretty purposeful), and Sheehey responded with a hard elbow to Ferry's chin. Can't recall if Sheehey was ejected, but he was at least T'd up and called for a personal foul.

[burnspbesq]

Ferry wasn't exactly a saint, either. The day his number was retired, he got Mark Randall of Kansas with a blind back-screen and nearly killed the guy. It was awesome.

[southgater]

Back to the Big 4 days...

My wife was in the Chapel Choir during the late 70's and tells me that the choir was quite involved with keeping tabs on the Big 4 games during performances of the Messiah. The choir, at least back then sat on 2 sides of the alter, behind it. During the performance some of the choir members would listen to the game using earphones from their transistor radios. They would then signal the scores to other choir members across the alter from them. Apparently there were a whole set of well-known hand signals that would be used to convey the scores and other details. My wife is pretty sure that the choir director knew about this as well - maybe he was even keeping track of the scores.

[captmojo]

Seems to me that the players get along today but the hatred is much more fan-based than years ago. I guess with all the games televised, fans have more familiarity with opposing players and coaches which enflames them. Very difficult for me at opposing arenas/stadiums even if Duke isn't the opponent. The fan vitriol and ref-blaming is over the top yet the players seem ok with everything at post game.

...and the others that have commented on this. Since latter years of everyone recruiting on a larger national basis, the attention to any of the players having any "hatred" toward each other is lessened by the fact that many didn't grow up in the same environment that most all the older fans have done. It is our legacy, as growing up in the states of NC, VA, and to a lesser case SC, to carry on the traditions of many ancestors that have the same allegiances. For example, I recall hearing from former players of not being in total realization of the vitriol between fans of rival schools in the conference, until they got here and saw it for themselves. They grew up in different situations, in faraway lands. Many as far off as NY. ;)

[sagegrouse]

Seems to me that the players get along today but the hatred is much more fan-based than years ago. I guess with all the games televised, fans have more familiarity with opposing players and coaches which enflames them. Very difficult for me at opposing arenas/stadiums even if Duke isn't the opponent. The fan vitriol and ref-blaming is over the top yet the players seem ok with everything at post game.


...and the others that have commented on this. Since latter years of everyone recruiting on a larger national basis, the attention to any of the players having any "hatred" toward each other is lessened by the fact that many didn't grow up in the same environment that most all the older fans have done. It is our legacy, as growing up in the states of NC, VA, and to a lesser case SC, to carry on the traditions of many ancestors that have the same allegiances. For example, I recall hearing from former players of not being in total realization of the vitriol between fans of rival schools in the conference, until they got here and saw it for themselves. They grew up in different situations, in faraway lands. Many as far off as NY. ;)

My first time on this thread, and I may report what others have said far better.

In my era, the 1960s,' the players really seemed to have little use for each other. Art Heyman and Larry Brown being exhibit A. But the players knew each other only from the court and not from HS or AAU ball. The fans seemed to get along -- there was much more heat around the Duke-UNC football game.

Today IMHO (where the H is characteristically silent), the players act more like colleagues. The top players have known each other from national teams or AAU tournaments and know that they will play together or against each other in the NBA. It's a business -- today's competitor is tomorrow's teammate. I have recounted a tale of a typical summer for Washington-native Nolan Smith when he was at Duke: strength work out in the early morning; skills workout in the late morning (two different trainers) and then basketball scrimmages in the after noon at the U. of Maryland, where he was welcomed with open arms, despite the rivalry and despite a concussion at the hands of Dave Neal.

The fans today? Uh, it can be ugly. I just learned last month that UNC closes Franklin Street for celebrations (riots?) when UNC beats Duke -- in basketball but not in football.

[TruBlu]

The fans today? Uh, it can be ugly. I just learned last month that UNC closes Franklin Street for celebrations (riots?) when UNC beats Duke -- in basketball but not in football.

While I usually wish for only bad things for Chapel Hill, this year (and many years to come) I am hoping for a very calm and peaceful Franklin Street.

[Olympic Fan]

My first time on this thread, and I may report what others have said far better.

In my era, the 1960s,' the players really seemed to have little use for each other. Art Heyman and Larry Brown being exhibit A. But the players knew each other only from the court and not from HS or AAU ball. The fans seemed to get along -- there was much more heat around the Duke-UNC football game.

Today IMHO (where the H is characteristically silent), the players act more like colleagues. The top players have known each other from national teams or AAU tournaments and know that they will play together or against each other in the NBA. It's a business -- today's competitor is tomorrow's teammate. I have recounted a tale of a typical summer for Washington-native Nolan Smith when he was at Duke: strength work out in the early morning; skills workout in the late morning (two different trainers) and then basketball scrimmages in the after noon at the U. of Maryland, where he was welcomed with open arms, despite the rivalry and despite a concussion at the hands of Dave Neal.

The fans today? Uh, it can be ugly. I just learned last month that UNC closes Franklin Street for celebrations (riots?) when UNC beats Duke -- in basketball but not in football.

While I agree with your point in general, you picked a bad example to illustrate it. Heyman and Brown grew up as playground rivals on Long Island. They were bitter enemies long before getting to Tobacco Road. They used to get into fights all the time. The interesting thing is that when Art signed his letter-of-intent to play UNC, he and Brown were slated to be roommates. I won der how that would have worked out?

And I also wonder about the anti-Semetic slurs that cascaded from the UNC fans in those days -- Brown was also Jewish.