MBB: Duke 75, Elon 62 Post-Game Thread

[Saratoga2]

Didn't see the numbers but free throw shooting was bad. Same for 3 point shooting. Those two make the team vulnerable. Jah can make up for a lot but we need more scoring threat from others.

Rasheed had bright spots but did drive the choked lane and missed badly, something he was doing poorly in the past.

Trouble stopping penetration and three point shooting in the second half. Were we tired?

We had Jah, Justise, MP3 and Amile for bigs now with the loss of Semi. I think it is a regrettable loss for the team which is now without extra depth. Jah will get tired and Justise is skating on the limit with his tendency to pick up fouls. He does play a lot of minutes.

Got to praise ELON for playing well, especially in the second half.

[Duvall]

Got to praise ELON for playing well, especially in the second half.

Why? They didn't. Duke just matched them in mediocrity.

[nyesq83]

I sort of half heard K's post game dissection.
The players will be whistling while they walk because I think he ripped them a new one after a lackluster performance.
l hope they take it out on UConn.

[dukelifer]

Why? They didn't. Duke just matched them in mediocrity.

Duke seemed to take their foot off the gas once they got up by 20- and then did that over and over. The issue was the defensive intensity throughout. They cannot get into bad habits. Also free throw shooting was really bad. That has to get better.

[pfrduke]

Sorry for getting the post-game thread up a little late. I've moved some post-game discussion from the in-game thread over.

[roywhite]

Box Score: Duke 75, Elon 62 (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=209809686)

Duke was 14-27 on FT, 51.9%
3-16 on 3-pt FG, 18.8%

[FerryFor50]

Box Score: Duke 75, Elon 62 (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=209809686)

Duke was 14-27 on FT, 51.9%
3-16 on 3-pt FG, 18.8%

Turnovers were a problem, too (17 for the game).

Just seemed to be overall lack of focus.

[JBDuke]

I thought the refs were really poor tonight. Elon came in knowing their only chance to nullify Duke's inside advantage was to be physical, and the refs let them get away with it early. After they'd established that, it just continued throughout the game. Eddy was particularly aggressive, as could be seen in the play near the end of the game when Rasheed got the technical.

[Dukehky]

Better tonight than Thursday. I'll take the win and the two days of motivated practice. Honestly, I bet K wanted this type of performance so he has a reason to tear into some people.

[Durham Blue Devil]

Aside from the poor outside shooting, FT shooting, and taking their foot off the gas defensively, Duke had a season high 17 turnovers.

To say Coach K was not happy on the local post game radio broadcast would be an understatement. He mentioned that they've heard how great they are from the fans and press for 10 days and they're not that great just yet.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Inside game was great, Sheed was good. Perimeter was lackluster and Matt Jones was cold cold cold.

Free throws were bad. Jah was fantastic.

12 days off, still tuning up.

[Saratoga2]

Box Score: Duke 75, Elon 62 (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=209809686)

Duke was 14-27 on FT, 51.9%
3-16 on 3-pt FG, 18.8%

We really don't have a consistent 3 point shooter with the possible exception of Quinn. Many of our shots were open and we just missed them. Free throw shooting was also bad as you show.

I wonder if the defensive intensity dropped because of fatigue?

[DukeDevil]

anyone find K's post game presser?

[roywhite]

I thought the refs were really poor tonight. Elon came in knowing their only chance to nullify Duke's inside advantage was to be physical, and the refs let them get away with it early. After they'd established that, it just continued throughout the game. Eddy was particularly aggressive, as could be seen in the play near the end of the game when Rasheed got the technical.

Coach K gave the opposing coach a real drive-by handshake after the game. As noted, I don't think K was happy with his team's performance, but I don't think he liked the overly rough play by Elon.

I didn't see it, but I read elsewhere that Justise Winslow snubbed Elon's Eddy in the postgame, and wouldn't shake his hand. Can anyone confirm? We've seen a handshake snub vs a team from Orange County; now the same directed toward an Alamance County team?

[jipops]

A long layoff, freshman dominated team, exam break, huge win 10 or so days ago where these kids have been able to hear how great they are...Not a big surprise we came out so flat and without focus. Poor ft shooting and turnovers are obvious signs of this and some very bad lapses on D.

I was actually happy to hear K upset with his team in the post game. He said his kids played "normal" after a long break. But champions are not normal, champions are hungrier after a big win. I loved that. He obviously expects big things from this group.

Other than Jah I loved the way Sheed played tonight. He really had it going on the offensive end.

[FerryFor50]

We really don't have a consistent 3 point shooter with the possible exception of Quinn. Many of our shots were open and we just missed them. Free throw shooting was also bad as you show.

I wonder if the defensive intensity dropped because of fatigue?

Confirmation bias.

This was ONE off game. And they still won by 13.

What's consistent to you? This is the current 3pt shooting % for each player that shoots threes on a regular basis:

Quinn - 44%
Matt Jones - 56%
Winslow - 38%
Sulaimon - 37%
Tyus Jones - 36%
Grayson Allen - 36%

They just came off a huge win at Wisconsin where they shot a ridiculous 58% from 3. They shoot 40% on the year, which is 33rd in the country.

Best part? They aren't relying on the 3 as much this year. They have actual inside players. And they drive/create more.

This was simply an off game after a long break.

[JBDuke]

... I didn't see it, but I read elsewhere that Justise Winslow snubbed Elon's Eddy in the postgame, and wouldn't shake his hand. Can anyone confirm? We've seen a handshake snub vs a team from Orange County; now the same directed toward an Alamance County team?

When the final buzzer sounded, Justise was close on the court to Eddy. Eddy reached out a hand to Justise, who ignored it and walked away. I didn't see whether or not the snubs continued during the post-game handshake lineup.

[richardjackson199]

Aside from the poor outside shooting, FT shooting, and taking their foot off the gas defensively, Duke had a season high 17 turnovers.

To say Coach K was not happy on the local post game radio broadcast would be an understatement. He mentioned that they've heard how great they are from the fans and press for 10 days and they're not that great just yet.

Unfortunately - Coach K is right. Easily our worst performance of the year. Hopefully this is the low point. After exam break, hopefully this is just momentary rust. After losing depth at our position of greatest need, these 9 guys really need to rally and focus on getting much better together. I watched Kentucky a few days ago thrash UNC, and this Duke team today would not have been able to play with UK either. Fortunately, as they say, December don't matter. We have much to improve on, we have great kids, and we'll work together and be better by March.

Let's get hungry and go earn a title

[azzefkram]

It definitely wasn't a fun game to watch but it was a win. Three things seemed to contribute to the closeness of the score:

Rust
Elon was allowed to "ugly it up"
Maybe a bit of looking past the competition



I'm sure Coach K will have several teaching moments over the next two days from this game (not that he'd really need them). Sheed needs to be a bit smarter than he showed in the last two minutes. Eddy (?) definitely had a hold on his arm but pushing someone's head like that could get you ejected. Eddy's move was a weak sauce punk move but Sheed has to be a bit more level headed in that situation.

[jv001]

I thought the refs were really poor tonight. Elon came in knowing their only chance to nullify Duke's inside advantage was to be physical, and the refs let them get away with it early. After they'd established that, it just continued throughout the game. Eddy was particularly aggressive, as could be seen in the play near the end of the game when Rasheed got the technical.

I agree on Eddy being overly aggressive. I couldn't believe the box score shows him with zero fouls recorded. He actually fouled enough to have been disqualified. As for a lack luster performance, I was expecting as much after the long layoff following a big win at Wisconsin. Matt Jones couldn't seem to get up to game speed. But he was not alone in that regard. Jah had a great game and I thought Rasheed played very well. GoDuke!

[OldPhiKap]

Post-exam game, no surprises.

Eddy's play at the end was pure punk, especially ring to body Sheed up afterwards. Too bad, thought Elon otherwise played with poise and did not give up.

Next play.

[Dukehky]

When the final buzzer sounded, Justise was close on the court to Eddy. Eddy reached out a hand to Justise, who ignored it and walked away. I didn't see whether or not the snubs continued during the post-game handshake lineup.

Did Justise 100% see Eddy reach out to shake his hand?

I like a little edge, so this doesn't bother me in the least, especially if the team thinks that Eddy was being dirty (or dirty-ish) the whole game.

[OldPhiKap]

Did Justise 100% see Eddy reach out to shake his hand?

I like a little edge, so this doesn't bother me in the least, especially if the team thinks that Eddy was being dirty (or dirty-ish) the whole game.

Yeah, it looked like a blow-off to me. And I am ok with it.

Not sure what if anything happened in the shake line.

[slower]

Did Justise 100% see Eddy reach out to shake his hand?

I like a little edge, so this doesn't bother me in the least, especially if the team thinks that Eddy was being dirty (or dirty-ish) the whole game.

I was actually wishing that Tyler Thornton had been playing, because Eddy might have been the recipient of at least one hard foul. He certainly deserved it.

[Dukehky]

I was actually wishing that Tyler Thornton had been playing, because Eddy might have been the recipient of at least one hard foul. He certainly deserved it.

2 words for those that need a hard foul. Marshall Plumlee. He is ginormous and he is such a spaz that if he thumps down on someone really hard, refs are just going to be like, oh that was an accident, he can't control himself. Boom no flagrant and a butt hole on the other team with a bump on his noggin.

Also, with Tyus and Senior Quinn on this team, I will never wish for Tyler Thornton on the court. Maybe on the bench at some point in the future!!!

[uh_no]

Turnovers were a problem, too (17 for the game).

Just seemed to be overall lack of focus.

looked like a team that hadn't really played in 2 weeks. sloppy turnovers, missed rotations on D....i'm not too worried, but i have to give props to Olympic fan

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?34717-MBB-Duke-vs-Elon-Dec-15-7-pm-(ESPNU)&p=763024#post763024

who i disagreed with

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?34717-MBB-Duke-vs-Elon-Dec-15-7-pm-(ESPNU)&p=763138#post763138

and i wholly admit that the game was close, despite my thoughts.

I contend that it was much more duke sloppiness than any thing elon did particularly well...they didn't put huge pressure on us, yet we had turnovers....good on them for making the wide open layups we gave them several times, i guess.

anyway...shake the rust off...uconn thursday (and sorry guys....i'm wearing a huskies shirt...despite thinking duke ought to win)

[slower]

Also, with Tyus and Senior Quinn on this team, I will never wish for Tyler Thornton on the court. Maybe on the bench at some point in the future!!!

I'm not suggesting that I'd PREFER Tyler to Tyus or Quinn. I'm suggesting that Tyler would have taken care of things properly.

[Furniture]

2 words for those that need a hard foul. Marshall Plumlee. He is ginormous and he is such a spaz that if he thumps down on someone really hard, refs are just going to be like, oh that was an accident, he can't control himself. Boom no flagrant and a butt hole on the other team with a bump on his noggin.

Also, with Tyus and Senior Quinn on this team, I will never wish for Tyler Thornton on the court. Maybe on the bench at some point in the future!!!

Referring to someone as a spaz is just not a nice thing all round.

[gurufrisbee]

Eddy was horrible. I hope whatever craphole league Elon is in looks at the tape of him tonight and suspends him. Pulling down an opposing player is dangerous and unacceptable. Sheed would have been in the right to deck him for that cheap move alone. His thuggish play the rest of the night up to and including with just seconds left would totally justify no one ever shaking his loser hand the rest of the season. I haven't seen a player that horrible since Hansborough.

[brlftz]

2 words for those that need a hard foul. Marshall Plumlee. He is ginormous and he is such a spaz that if he thumps down on someone really hard, refs are just going to be like, oh that was an accident, he can't control himself. Boom no flagrant and a butt hole on the other team with a bump on his noggin.

I don't know, it takes some real skill to foul hard in a way that leaves no doubt in your opponent's mind that you were sending a message, yet doesn't give the official cause to toss you. Thornton was a master at it. If it really does look like an accident, then no message is received, and what's the point?

Thornton has never gotten enough love.

[Billy Dat]

Granted he was a man among boys, but 25 and 20 is an epic performance that deserves more kudos. Yes, we didn't play well but Jah was literally huge. Historic performance.

The rest? I shrug it off. As many are saying, the fact that K is so angry shows he thinks this team is potentially great. This assures we'll be ready Thursday (psyched that I will be indahouse).

By the way, our squad has EPIC facial hair going right now. It may be the greatest assemblage ever.

[Atldukie79]

Eddy was horrible. I hope whatever craphole league Elon is in looks at the tape of him tonight and suspends him. Pulling down an opposing player is dangerous and unacceptable. Sheed would have been in the right to deck him for that cheap move alone. His thuggish play the rest of the night up to and including with just seconds left would totally justify no one ever shaking his loser hand the rest of the season. I haven't seen a player that horrible since Hansborough.

Eddy's play on Suli was indeed a punk play. it wasn't a quick hit, but an elbow, a grab, and a chance to drag Suli down and potentially get into his knees. Watching Suli from the end line in real time leads me to believe he is making a rational and reasonable play to protect himself. I wonder why the move Eddy made cannot be considered a flagrant foul. Indeed it wasn't to the head...but of the two, Eddy's was deliberant while Suli's was a reaction.

[subzero02]

I am looking forward to watching the archived game on espn... The free throw percentage is always a concern. If Okafor and Winslow can hit ft's at a 65 percent or higher clip we should be ok... Still the only recent time in which free throw issues with a player blatantly derailed a season was 2002.

[Kedsy]

Free throws were bad.

Well, the real problem with our free throws is who took them. For the season before this game, Jahlil has made 52% of his free throws, Amile has made 59%, and Justise has made 60%. Those three guys took 18 of our 27 free throws tonight, and made just 39% of those free throws. And while 39% is worse than 52% or 59% or 60%, it's sort of in the same ball park (to be consistent with season averages, those three would have had to collectively have made three (3) more free throws). Our other free throw shooters made 78% of their free throws, which is just a shade under their season average-to-date of 80.6%.


After losing depth at our position of greatest need, these 9 guys really need to rally and focus on getting much better together.

Yeah? What position of greatest need is that? We have Marshall to back up C, Justise to back up PF, and Rasheed/Matt to back up SF. Semi was clearly behind all those other guys and wasn't going to play a lot even if we ran into injury or foul trouble at any of those three positions. I like Semi, but for this season we didn't lose meaningful depth anywhere.


I watched Kentucky a few days ago thrash UNC, and this Duke team today would not have been able to play with UK either.

"[T]his Duke team today" was playing Elon. It would have looked a lot different if Duke was playing Kentucky. I have no idea how well we'd look against UK if we played tomorrow, but I'm pretty sure our games against teams like Elon would not give me any meaningful information along those lines.

[Wander]

Well, the real problem with our free throws is who took them. For the season before this game, Jahlil has made 52% of his free throws, Amile has made 59%, and Justise has made 60%. Those three guys took 18 of our 27 free throws tonight, and made just 39% of those free throws. And while 39% is worse than 52% or 59% or 60%, it's sort of in the same ball park (to be consistent with season averages, those three would have had to collectively have made three (3) more free throws). Our other free throw shooters made 78% of their free throws, which is just a shade under their season average-to-date of 80.6%.

Guess what? Jahlil, Amile, and Justice are going to be shooting over half of our free throws in meaningful games this season.

[Kedsy]

Guess what? Jahlil, Amile, and Justice are going to be shooting over half of our free throws in meaningful games this season.

Could be. In that case, guess what? Get used to those three guys hitting fewer than 60% of their free throws. And don't say "our free throws were bad" when they do (and I know it wasn't you who said that originally).

Like I said in my earlier post, the three of them were within three free made throws of their average. The rest of the team was pretty much right on their average. So we shot a bit below average from the line but about what we should expect. If those three guys continue to take two-thirds of our free throws, it's unlikely we'll get a lot better from the line. No reason to point out how bad we were if our players shot close to their average.

[Wander]

Could be. In that case, guess what? Get used to those three guys hitting fewer than 60% of their free throws. And don't say "our free throws were bad" when they do (and I know it wasn't you who said that originally).

Like I said in my earlier post, the three of them were within three free made throws of their average. The rest of the team was pretty much right on their average. So we shot a bit below average from the line but about what we should expect. If those three guys continue to take two-thirds of our free throws, it's unlikely we'll get a lot better from the line. No reason to point out how bad we were if our players shot close to their average.

I sort of agree in that I don't find free throw shooting percentage to be a particularly interesting thing to talk about, but as far as I can tell it's one of the very few weaknesses of our team, so it seems a bit silly to just say nobody should mention it for the rest of the season.

[JohnJ]

Well, the real problem with our free throws is who took them. For the season before this game, Jahlil has made 52% of his free throws, Amile has made 59%, and Justise has made 60%. Those three guys took 18 of our 27 free throws tonight, and made just 39% of those free throws. And while 39% is worse than 52% or 59% or 60%, it's sort of in the same ball park (to be consistent with season averages, those three would have had to collectively have made three (3) more free throws).

Those three together shoot 57.5% together on the season. So 39% is not in the same ball park as 57%. Also all three together made a total of 7 FT tonight. To add another 3 made FT's increases the total by almost 50%. They had an off night compared to normal.

[Kedsy]

Those three together shoot 57.5% together on the season. So 39% is not in the same ball park as 57%. Also all three together made a total of 7 FT tonight. To add another 3 made FT's increases the total by almost 50%. They had an off night compared to normal.

Well, like I said, the real issue is that those three went to line more than usual. In our first 8 games, Jahlil, Amile, and Justise combined to take 39% of Duke's free throws. Against Elon, those three guys took 67% of our free throws. If they'd kept with their averages, they'd have made 6 out of 11 free throws, instead of 7 out of 18. That's a difference of one point. But even if they'd made 10 of 18, so what? We would have won by 16 instead of 13. It's not a big enough deal to single out as an abnormally bad night. What's more significant is how many free throws our three bad FT shooters (really four bad FT shooters if you add Matt Jones to that group) take compared to the rest of our players (who are good FT shooters).

Ultimately, as Wander sort of pointed out, when four of our eight rotation players combine to make fewer than 60% of their free throws, the team isn't going to make a high percentage of its free throws overall. Sure, it's a team weakness, but it's unlikely to get significantly better over the course of the season, so we kind of just have to accept it. If in a particular game we're within a few made FTs of normal, what's the value in pointing out we didn't shoot FTs well, when we're almost never going to shoot them well?

[JohnJ]

I don't disagree that it did not matter in this game.

[gam7]

1. On the Eddy/Rasheed play: In addition to grabbing Rasheed's arm and wrist, I think Eddy may have given Rasheed an elbow to the groin, which also helps explain Rasheed's reaction.

2. It's been touched on, but Coach K's press conference was better than usual. Very interesting comments about human nature and what separates normal from abnormal/great. Lots of other good stuff. Presser is on goduke.

[Skitzle]

The defense definitely reminded me of the past couple of years at times with guys getting to the rim with ease, but we got stops when we needed them. At some point in the 2nd half we went with a sheed matt justise amile jah lineup that basically caused to 35 second violations in a row (one ended in a bad pass the other a steal) that lineup is brutal defensively and not poor on the offensive end either.

[MChambers]

Well, like I said, the real issue is that those three went to line more than usual. In our first 8 games, Jahlil, Amile, and Justise combined to take 39% of Duke's free throws. Against Elon, those three guys took 67% of our free throws. If they'd kept with their averages, they'd have made 6 out of 11 free throws, instead of 7 out of 18. That's a difference of one point. But even if they'd made 10 of 18, so what? We would have won by 16 instead of 13. It's not a big enough deal to single out as an abnormally bad night. What's more significant is how many free throws our three bad FT shooters (really four bad FT shooters if you add Matt Jones to that group) take compared to the rest of our players (who are good FT shooters).

Ultimately, as Wander sort of pointed out, when four of our eight rotation players combine to make fewer than 60% of their free throws, the team isn't going to make a high percentage of its free throws overall. Sure, it's a team weakness, but it's unlikely to get significantly better over the course of the season, so we kind of just have to accept it. If in a particular game we're within a few made FTs of normal, what's the value in pointing out we didn't shoot FTs well, when we're almost never going to shoot them well?
I think it's very possible that Justise and Jahlil improve their free throw shooting between now and March. Both have decent strokes. I remember that Grant Hill struggled from the free throw line his freshman year, but improved dramatically down the stretch. In the championship game, he hit something like 5 of 6 in the closing minutes.

[OldPhiKap]

Just watched K's post-game press conference.

Hell's coming to breakfast this morning, my friends.

[Monmouth77]

Could be. In that case, guess what? Get used to those three guys hitting fewer than 60% of their free throws. And don't say "our free throws were bad" when they do (and I know it wasn't you who said that originally).

Like I said in my earlier post, the three of them were within three free made throws of their average. The rest of the team was pretty much right on their average. So we shot a bit below average from the line but about what we should expect. If those three guys continue to take two-thirds of our free throws, it's unlikely we'll get a lot better from the line. No reason to point out how bad we were if our players shot close to their average.

There is plenty of reason to be dissatisfied with our three front court starters shooting 39% from the line. And a sample size of 9 games is not enough evidence to tell us that the mediocre to bad FT shooting from these guys is some immutable characteristic of their play that is unlikely to change. Totally fair to hope for improvement and discuss it. Also fair to call it bad-- which I am sure is what the coaches think too.

[weezie]

Just watched K's post-game press conference.

Hell's coming to breakfast this morning, my friends.


Yes, I predict there will be breakfast exiting tummies in the vicinity of Coach K floor inside Cameron Indoor Stadium this morning.

[roywhite]

Just watched K's post-game press conference.

Hell's coming to breakfast this morning, my friends.


Yes, I predict there will be breakfast exiting tummies in the vicinity of Coach K floor inside Cameron Indoor Stadium this morning.

The only good news for the players is that classes are not in session. It would probably be worse to go through the day dreading a stern talk and brutal afternoon practice. Might as well get it over with.

[jv001]

The only good news for the players is that classes are not in session. It would probably be worse to go through the day dreading a stern talk and brutal afternoon practice. Might as well get it over with.

If Coach ain't happy, no one's happy. From reading the post game quotes, I would say Coach K ain't happy. I see some emphasis put on free throws, ball handling, communication and some floor burns today. I believe the team will be prepared come Thursday night. GoDuke!

[CameronBlue]

Just watched K's post-game press conference.

Hell's coming to breakfast this morning, my friends.

Just what does Hell eat for breakfast anyway? We're gluten free at our house. Hope he likes EggBeaters.

[Neals384]

The defense definitely reminded me of the past couple of years at times with guys getting to the rim with ease, but we got stops when we needed them. At some point in the 2nd half we went with a sheed matt justise amile jah lineup that basically caused to 35 second violations in a row (one ended in a bad pass the other a steal) that lineup is brutal defensively and not poor on the offensive end either.

Perhpas you're referring to 16:25 of the second half, when Sheed subbed in for Tyus. So the lineup was Okafor Jefferson Winslow Sulaimon Cook. The lineup you refer to, sheed matt justise amile jah, has not been used at all this year...but it would be an interesting one to try!

[FerryFor50]

What amazes me the most about Okafor is his ability to dribble in the open court. He ran a couple of breaks by himself, making nifty moves with the ball. That's astounding for a 6'11" 270+ lb big man to be able to do. And he's FAST. Like, way too fast for his size.

Glad to be able to watch him, if only for a year.

[superdave]

Duke looked sluggish last night and a little sloppy. But that is why you play Elon after a long break. We will learn more about this team on Thursday when they can either absorb Coach K's criticisms or they can look ahead to having Christmas off. A dialed in Duke team should play great defense vs. UConn. That will be the measure for me, and I think it will be telling for the remainder of the season. No matter what else is going on - coming vacation, bad shooting nights, etc - a Duke team that meets its potential will bring their best defensive effort every game.

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

Just what does Hell eat for breakfast anyway?

Hell probably stops at Taco Bell for a waffle taco and an A.M. cruchwrap.

[roywhite]

Hell probably stops at Taco Bell for a waffle taco and an A.M. cruchwrap.

Always on special at Taco Bell locations in Chapel Hill.

[Clay Feet POF]

Thornton has never gotten enough love.


Plus Tax

[Saratoga2]

What amazes me the most about Okafor is his ability to dribble in the open court. He ran a couple of breaks by himself, making nifty moves with the ball. That's astounding for a 6'11" 270+ lb big man to be able to do. And he's FAST. Like, way too fast for his size.

Glad to be able to watch him, if only for a year.

He really does many things very well. The main criticism is his foul shooting and in that he has always been a 50% type but when I watch him, his form is pretty good and better than the results would indicate. He will swish one and be off the next. Seems like that is his MO. So my guess it is just concentration and he can become much better with FT as well.

[MChambers]

What amazes me the most about Okafor is his ability to dribble in the open court. He ran a couple of breaks by himself, making nifty moves with the ball. That's astounding for a 6'11" 270+ lb big man to be able to do. And he's FAST. Like, way too fast for his size.

Glad to be able to watch him, if only for a year.
Wish he wouldn't do that, even if he is good at it. He's going to pick up charges doing that. I have memories of Elton getting a foul (perhaps his fourth) in the 1999 semifinals against MSU doing something similar.

There was a funny moment late in a game earlier this year where he got a rebound, started to dribble, and then seemed to hear someone telling him to stop. He picked up his dribble, handed the ball to Tyus, and patted Tyus on the head.

[DukieInBrasil]

i watched the game and was briefly excited by the hot streak we had near the beginning, but once the kids got a nice lead they just seemed to lose interest in doing the things that got them the lead. Defense was actually quite good in the first half, we held them to 21, but we allowed them to score nearly 2x that many in the 2nd. That's a lack of focus, effort and execution.
In the 2nd half i don't think Duke did anything well. 3pt shooting was terrible, FT shooting was abysmal, defense was porous. Well, i guess Duke did two things well (and by Duke i mean Jah and Amile), score in the post and get rebounds.
The least appetizing aspect of the game was the turnover situation. 17 turns, and most of them of the unforced and/or bonehead variety. Charges, travels, poor passing, a little bit of everything.
I've noticed that Tyus seems to play to the (perceived) level of the competition, he did not make a FG, and only attempted 1, to go along with his mediocre ball-handling.
I'm not really worried about the rest of the bad news, which can mostly be written off to post-exam rust. I just hope they get their act together before they play UCons.

[OldPhiKap]

If Coach ain't happy, no one's happy. From reading the post game quotes, I would say Coach K ain't happy. I see some emphasis put on free throws, ball handling, communication and some floor burns today. I believe the team will be prepared come Thursday night. GoDuke!

K said that Duke "did not do the hard things" that separate normal players and teams from championship-caliber teams. So a hard practice of hard things -- good luck.


Just what does Hell eat for breakfast anyway? We're gluten free at our house. Hope he likes EggBeaters.

Given that The Devil is a Southerner,* I am sure that bacon, eggs, grits, and sawmill gravy is a good start. Sweet tea after 11:00. Bourbon after 4.


* At least according to the Drive-By Truckers -- and if you can't trust that, you can't trust anything.

[devildeac]

Wish he wouldn't do that, even if he is good at it. He's going to pick up charges doing that. I have memories of Elton getting a foul (perhaps his fourth) in the 1999 semifinals against MSU doing something similar.

There was a funny moment late in a game earlier this year where he got a rebound, started to dribble, and then seemed to hear someone telling him to stop. He picked up his dribble, handed the ball to Tyus, and patted Tyus on the head.

I think there were 2 breaks he led. One finished with a finger roll lay up and 1. Very pretty. The other was 1 on 4 toward the wing and ended up with a turnover. Not so pretty.

[jacone21]

Just what does Hell eat for breakfast anyway?

Why, souls, of course.

[Kedsy]

I think it's very possible that Justise and Jahlil improve their free throw shooting between now and March. Both have decent strokes. I remember that Grant Hill struggled from the free throw line his freshman year, but improved dramatically down the stretch. In the championship game, he hit something like 5 of 6 in the closing minutes.

Memory is a funny thing. In the championship game against Kansas in 1991, Grant Hill hit 2 of 8 free throws for the game (http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/games/boxscore.php?gameid=19910401). So he didn't hit anything like 5 of 6 at any point in the entire game.

Justise and Jahlil have accumulated their current poor percentages over nine games. In Grant Hill's first nine games of his freshman season, he hit 22 of 40 free throws, for 55%. In his last nine games (which I think could be fairly characterized as "the stretch"), he hit 19 of 36 free throws, for 53%, which doesn't appear to be a dramatic improvement at all. He hit 61% for the season, so I guess he was somewhat better in the 21 games between the first and last nine.

[MChambers]

Memory is a funny thing. In the championship game against Kansas in 1991, Grant Hill hit 2 of 8 free throws for the game (http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/games/boxscore.php?gameid=19910401). So he didn't hit anything like 5 of 6 at any point in the entire game.

Justise and Jahlil have accumulated their current poor percentages over nine games. In Grant Hill's first nine games of his freshman season, he hit 22 of 40 free throws, for 55%. In his last nine games (which I think could be fairly characterized as "the stretch"), he hit 19 of 36 free throws, for 53%, which doesn't appear to be a dramatic improvement at all. He hit 61% for the season, so I guess he was somewhat better in the 21 games between the first and last nine.
I stand corrected, at least on the Kansas game! :-) But he was 63.4% after the first nine games (and that's not excluding the last nine games).

If Justise and Jahlil end up hitting 63% for the rest of the season, I think we'd all be happy.

[Kedsy]

I stand corrected, at least on the Kansas game! :-) But he was 63.4% after the first nine games (and that's not excluding the last nine games).

If Justise and Jahlil end up hitting 63% for the rest of the season, I think we'd all be happy.

Well, if you take out *one* poor performance by Grant in the fourth game of his college career (6 for 14 against Notre Dame), then Grant's FT shooting was 63.0% for the entire season (including 8 of his first 9 games). So I honestly don't think he improved much from the beginning of the season to the end.

As for Justise and Jahlil, before last night's game Justise was shooting FTs 60.0% for the season to date. I don't know that 63% for the season would be that much of an actual improvement for him, either. Of course, any improvement for Jahlil would be welcome since I expect him to get fouled more and more as the season moves along.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Well, if you take out *one* poor performance by Grant in the fourth game of his college career (6 for 14 against Notre Dame), then Grant's FT shooting was 63.0% for the entire season (including 8 of his first 9 games). So I honestly don't think he improved much from the beginning of the season to the end.

As for Justise and Jahlil, before last night's game Justise was shooting FTs 60.0% for the season to date. I don't know that 63% for the season would be that much of an actual improvement for him, either. Of course, any improvement for Jahlil would be welcome since I expect him to get fouled more and more as the season moves along.

"Broke An Oak" strategy? If I'm an opposing coach, that's exactly what I'm doing.

[Kfanarmy]

Eddy's play on Suli was indeed a punk play. it wasn't a quick hit, but an elbow, a grab, and a chance to drag Suli down and potentially get into his knees. Watching Suli from the end line in real time leads me to believe he is making a rational and reasonable play to protect himself. I wonder why the move Eddy made cannot be considered a flagrant foul. Indeed it wasn't to the head...but of the two, Eddy's was deliberant while Suli's was a reaction. Didn't he also smack a Duke player in the face with a few minutes to go? There was a play late in the half where an Elon player seemed to flail at the ball and intentionally smack a Duke player in the face near mid-court. I thought that was Eddy as well.

I was surprised that play didn't get an official replay for a potential flagrant foul.

I have no problem with players not shaking a dirty opponents hand. At the time, I was hoping none of the Duke players would shake his hand; shake everyone elses, but send a message to him that his cheap shots were not acceptable.

[FerryFor50]

"Broke An Oak" strategy? If I'm an opposing coach, that's exactly what I'm doing.

Lumber-hack?

[English]

Didn't he also smack a Duke player in the face with a few minutes to go? There was a play late in the half where an Elon player seemed to flail at the ball and intentionally smack a Duke player in the face near mid-court. I thought that was Eddy as well.

I was surprised that play didn't get an official replay for a potential flagrant foul.

I have no problem with players not shaking a dirty opponents hand. At the time, I was hoping none of the Duke players would shake his hand; shake everyone elses, but send a message to him that his cheap shots were not acceptable.

Coach K was irate when that happened, likely because it was immediately after Sheed's tech and the subsequent ~20 free throws that Elon got as a result. That player, though, was actually Tanner Samson, who clubbed Tyus in the face trying blindly to knock the ball away.

That was a really odd series of officiating--I was shocked that, with the new emphasis on blows over the neck, that wasn't reviewed as a potential flagrant 1 (I suppose the officials deemed it a play on the ball, even though it was a closed hand, palm-to-the-face). Immediately after that, Tyus had the ball in the attacking half, mid-court corner and he brought the ball over his head to clear space and appeared to (nearly?) swipe his elbow through an Elon player's face. I thought it was either lucky or a makeup call that it wasn't called or reviewed either, and play continued.

An interesting 2 minutes of play, to be sure.

[gam7]

Lumber-hack?

Hack-afor strategy.

[rsvman]

I certainly hope that the coaching staff doesn't have the same attitude about free throw shooting that Kedsy has.

My take on free throw shooting:

1) Free throw shooting is not just important, it's essential to a quality basketball team, especially as the season goes along and the competition gets tougher (read: tournament time). Free throw shooting could definitely make the difference between a Sweet 16 or Elite 8 team and a national champion.

2) Free throw shooting percentages are not set in stone. On the contrary, percentages are malleable. Free throw shooting is a skill that can be learned/acquired. There are studies proving it. In fact, there are studies that show that free throw shooting percentages can be improved without even physically practicing free throws, via positive imagery. (In golf there are studies that show golfers got better by watching videotape of Al Geiberger's swing for about an hour a day without any physical practice at all; one wonders whether watching JJ shooting free throws would also work.)

3) There is not a single cogent reason why the guys on our team that are currently shooting a poor percentage couldn't/shouldn't improve their free throw shooting. This could potentially be critical, especially for the high-use guys who are most likely to end up at the free throw line during tight/important games. Not a one of the aforementioned players has any sort of fundamental poor form that would preclude them from shooting upwards of 70% from the free throw line.

4) When a high-use player on a competitive team has a problem with free throws, positive steps towards improving his free throw percentage should be taken, and the staff should do WHATEVER IT TAKES to get the job accomplished. If the player requires a sports psychologist, get him a sports psychologist. If he requires hypnotherapy, get him hypnotherapy. If he requires a dedicated free throw shooting coach, get him a dedicated free throw shooting coach. If he requires repetitions, get him repetitions. Fixing the free throw shooting should be at or very near the top of the priority list.

It's sort of like if you are a golfer who can hit a driver 310 yards down the middle of the fairway and can hit your irons accurately, but you can't make a 3-foot putt. If you are that golfer, you should IMMEDIATELY transfer most of your practice time away from the driving range and onto the putting green. Because until you can make those 3-foot putts consistently, you are never, ever going to win the big tournament. Likewise, if three of your most important players can't make free throws, the chances that your team wins the national championship (or makes the Final Four, or wins the ACC championship, or "insert team goal here") go down considerably.

[kAzE]

Whoever helped out MP3 with his free throw shooting needs to spend some time with Okafor. Plumlee went from 0-8 (0%) his first year to 6-17 (35%) in year 2, to now 10-10 (100%) thus far as a junior. Just call him JJ Plumlee.

[AncientPsychicT]

"Broke An Oak" strategy? If I'm an opposing coach, that's exactly what I'm doing.


Lumber-hack?


Hack-afor strategy.

Poke the oak.

[OldPhiKap]

Coach K was irate when that happened, likely because it was immediately after Sheed's tech and the subsequent ~20 free throws that Elon got as a result. That player, though, was actually Tanner Samson, who clubbed Tyus in the face trying blindly to knock the ball away.



I thought that the guy missed Tyus, and that Tyus just snapped his head back as a reaction. I know dd disagrees with me though (and agrees with you).

[Ichabod Drain]

I thought that the guy missed Tyus, and that Tyus just snapped his head back as a reaction. I know dd disagrees with me though (and agrees with you).

He definitely caught Tyus in the nose/eye region.

[Kedsy]

I certainly hope that the coaching staff doesn't have the same attitude about free throw shooting that Kedsy has.

My take on free throw shooting:

1) Free throw shooting is not just important, it's essential to a quality basketball team, especially as the season goes along and the competition gets tougher (read: tournament time). Free throw shooting could definitely make the difference between a Sweet 16 or Elite 8 team and a national champion.

2) Free throw shooting percentages are not set in stone. On the contrary, percentages are malleable. Free throw shooting is a skill that can be learned/acquired. There are studies proving it. In fact, there are studies that show that free throw shooting percentages can be improved without even physically practicing free throws, via positive imagery. (In golf there are studies that show golfers got better by watching videotape of Al Geiberger's swing for about an hour a day without any physical practice at all; one wonders whether watching JJ shooting free throws would also work.)

3) There is not a single cogent reason why the guys on our team that are currently shooting a poor percentage couldn't/shouldn't improve their free throw shooting. This could potentially be critical, especially for the high-use guys who are most likely to end up at the free throw line during tight/important games. Not a one of the aforementioned players has any sort of fundamental poor form that would preclude them from shooting upwards of 70% from the free throw line.

4) When a high-use player on a competitive team has a problem with free throws, positive steps towards improving his free throw percentage should be taken, and the staff should do WHATEVER IT TAKES to get the job accomplished. If the player requires a sports psychologist, get him a sports psychologist. If he requires hypnotherapy, get him hypnotherapy. If he requires a dedicated free throw shooting coach, get him a dedicated free throw shooting coach. If he requires repetitions, get him repetitions. Fixing the free throw shooting should be at or very near the top of the priority list.

It's sort of like if you are a golfer who can hit a driver 310 yards down the middle of the fairway and can hit your irons accurately, but you can't make a 3-foot putt. If you are that golfer, you should IMMEDIATELY transfer most of your practice time away from the driving range and onto the putting green. Because until you can make those 3-foot putts consistently, you are never, ever going to win the big tournament. Likewise, if three of your most important players can't make free throws, the chances that your team wins the national championship (or makes the Final Four, or wins the ACC championship, or "insert team goal here") go down considerably.

The answer to every single one of your observations is this rarely if ever happens during the season. Assuming MP3's transformation is legitimate, it happened in the off-season, as almost all improvements of this sort do.

The coaching staff may add a few extra free throw reps, or the guys may try to shoot free throws on their own after practice or something, but nobody's going to "IMMEDIATELY transfer most of [their] practice time" to free throws. Practice time is a scarce and precious commodity that to my knowledge is generally spent working on offensive and defensive sets, schemes, and strategies -- not shooting technique.

I imagine someone could name an example, but I personally can't remember a single instance of any college player being a terrible free throw shooter for the first two months of the season and being a good free throw shooter by the end of the same season. It just doesn't happen (or if it does happen, it doesn't happen more than once in a blue moon), so I'd be very surprised if it happens this season for Duke. I am therefore resigned to the probability that Jahlil, Amile, and Justise simply aren't going to be very good free throw shooters for the rest of the season.

Having said that, I'd be very happy to be wrong.

[luvdahops]

The answer to every single one of your observations is this rarely if ever happens during the season. Assuming MP3's transformation is legitimate, it happened in the off-season, as almost all improvements of this sort do.

The coaching staff may add a few extra free throw reps, or the guys may try to shoot free throws on their own after practice or something, but nobody's going to "IMMEDIATELY transfer most of [their] practice time" to free throws. Practice time is a scarce and precious commodity that to my knowledge is generally spent working on offensive and defensive sets, schemes, and strategies -- not shooting technique.

I imagine someone could name an example, but I personally can't remember a single instance of any college player being a terrible free throw shooter for the first two months of the season and being a good free throw shooter by the end of the same season. It just doesn't happen (or if it does happen, it doesn't happen more than once in a blue moon), so I'd be very surprised if it happens this season for Duke. I am therefore resigned to the probability that Jahlil, Amile, and Justise simply aren't going to be very good free throw shooters for the rest of the season.

Having said that, I'd be very happy to be wrong.

Check Mason his junior year. I believe he started out horrific (30% range) but shot around 70% the last 2-3 months to finish at 53% for the year.

[rsvman]

Kedsy, it doesn't happen much because people don't make it happen much. They believe, as you apparently do, that practice time is better spent on defensive schemes, etc.

What I'm saying is that it COULD happen if people stopped thinking the way you think. It might truly be as simple as the player taking a positive mindset about free throws, and perhaps for the last 30 minutes of every day imagining making free throws one after another. Drifting off to sleep with the image of the ball going right through with a perfect swish.

Also, please note that the idea of taking up practice time was in my golf example. The golf example was meant as a metaphor, not to be taken literally; in other words, I didn't want to suggest that most of practice time should be spent on free throws. I do, however, want to emphasize that there is absolutely NO RATIONAL REASON WHATSOEVER that a player couldn't significantly improve his free throw shooting during the course of a season. And the fact that it happens rarely, if ever, by no means proves that it couldn't or shouldn't happen; it only proves that it usually doesn't. Maybe it usually doesn't because people think it can't, or don't know how to make it happen, or think it's not worth the effort, or whatever.

I disagree with any and all who believe or think in that way. Free throw shooting is mind over matter, just like a 3-foot putt. Free throw shooting is dead easy. You don't even have to be a talented basketball player to shoot free throws well.

[DukeDevil]

"Broke An Oak" strategy?

Hack-afor is what my fam and friends are calling it


Poke the oak.

Eww....

[Monmouth77]

The answer to every single one of your observations is this rarely if ever happens during the season. Assuming MP3's transformation is legitimate, it happened in the off-season, as almost all improvements of this sort do.

The coaching staff may add a few extra free throw reps, or the guys may try to shoot free throws on their own after practice or something, but nobody's going to "IMMEDIATELY transfer most of [their] practice time" to free throws. Practice time is a scarce and precious commodity that to my knowledge is generally spent working on offensive and defensive sets, schemes, and strategies -- not shooting technique.

I imagine someone could name an example, but I personally can't remember a single instance of any college player being a terrible free throw shooter for the first two months of the season and being a good free throw shooter by the end of the same season. It just doesn't happen (or if it does happen, it doesn't happen more than once in a blue moon), so I'd be very surprised if it happens this season for Duke. I am therefore resigned to the probability that Jahlil, Amile, and Justise simply aren't going to be very good free throw shooters for the rest of the season.

Having said that, I'd be very happy to be wrong.

I have no idea what the team works on during practice, but I'd be shocked if guys don't spend at least some time between games practicing free throws. Coach K brought up poor free throw shooting twice during his postgame presser as an example of a lack of focus. He thinks Jahlil can and should be better than 5-11 from the line. And I don't think he means he should be 6-11.

I don't have examples of guys getting drastically better at free throw shooting over the season, but I think I'd agree with your posts on this point a lot more if we were having this conversation on January 31. We aren't even two months into the season (more like a month, actually) and I could easily see Justise or Jahlil (who are freshman after all) developing some better habits at the line before the ACC season starts. Plus, the sample size that goes into FT% is so small right now, that if Jahlil just goes 5-6 at the line against UConn his FT% jumps from 50% to 62%. So I'd say the jury's still out a little bit.

I would not bet on Jahlil shooting 80% for the season or anything, but he does have the kind of soft touch that makes you think that if he gets into good mental habits at the line, he can improve quite a bit. It's not like we're talking about Shaq or Mason Plumlee who had to effectively adopt trick mechanics to shoot free throws.

[Kedsy]

Check Mason his junior year. I believe he started out horrific (30% range) but shot around 70% the last 2-3 months to finish at 53% for the year.

OK, I just checked. And you're close to right. His first 11 games he combined for 38%, and he shot in the low 60s thereafter (62.7% in his last 11 games; 63.8% in all games after the first 11).

That's certainly a huge improvement, but it's still shooting in the low-60s. I suppose if all three of this year's guys raised their percentages from the low- to mid-50s to the low- to mid-60s it would make a difference of around one point per game. That's not nothing, and I suppose a single point could be the deciding factor in a game or two, but I doubt that single point is worth devoting the majority of our practice time, either.

[MChambers]

OK, I just checked. And you're close to right. His first 11 games he combined for 38%, and he shot in the low 60s thereafter (62.7% in his last 11 games; 63.8% in all games after the first 11).

That's certainly a huge improvement, but it's still shooting in the low-60s. I suppose if all three of this year's guys raised their percentages from the low- to mid-50s to the low- to mid-60s it would make a difference of around one point per game. That's not nothing, and I suppose a single point could be the deciding factor in a game or two, but I doubt that single point is worth devoting the majority of our practice time, either.
I don't recall anyone saying that Duke should devote a majority of practice to free throw shooting, but perhaps I missed that in this thread.

Last year, Amile was 9-32 through Dec. 19. He finished 40-81, meaning that he finished 31-49. So he went from 28% through Dec. 19, and 63% thereafter. Players do improve during the course of the season.

[Henderson]

I don't recall anyone saying that Duke should devote a majority of practice to free throw shooting, but perhaps I missed that in this thread.

In addition, you don't need to be at a practice to work on your FT shooting. Heck, you don't even need a gym.

[Kedsy]

I don't recall anyone saying that Duke should devote a majority of practice to free throw shooting, but perhaps I missed that in this thread.

The following is the post to which I was responding. I assumed the golfer thing was supposed to be analogous to Duke.


When a high-use player on a competitive team has a problem with free throws, positive steps towards improving his free throw percentage should be taken, and the staff should do WHATEVER IT TAKES to get the job accomplished.


If you are that golfer, you should IMMEDIATELY transfer most of your practice time away from the driving range and onto the putting green.

[Henderson]

Coach K was irate when that happened, likely because it was immediately after Sheed's tech and the subsequent ~20 free throws that Elon got as a result. That player, though, was actually Tanner Samson, who clubbed Tyus in the face trying blindly to knock the ball away.

I'm not a lip reader, but it looked to me after Samson's thuggish smack on Tyus, K (clearly livid) was screaming, "You have to call that! You have to call that!" And he was right. Eddy made some crack after the game about Sheed trying to bully him and his not being bullied by anyone.

Whatever. Samson and Eddy combined for zero assists and 6 turnovers. Duke is 9-0, and Elon is 5-5.

Next play.

[weezie]

Eddy made some crack after the game about Sheed trying to bully him and his not being bullied by anyone.


Lol, I love tough guy talk. Eddy will be the toast of Elon-ville for many years to come for adding another brick to the Duke Hate Wall.

What a nincompoop.

[OldPhiKap]

I'm not a lip reader, but it looked to me after Samson's thuggish smack on Tyus, K (clearly livid) was screaming, "You have to call that! You have to call that!" And he was right. Eddy made some crack after the game about Sheed trying to bully him and his not being bullied by anyone.

Whatever. Samson and Eddy combined for zero assists and 6 turnovers. Duke is 9-0, and Elon is 5-5.

Next play.

I am guessing there was a game full of stuff leading up to it.

Bottom line though -- eyes will be on Sheed, especially refs. Keep your nose clean.

[luvdahops]

OK, I just checked. And you're close to right. His first 11 games he combined for 38%, and he shot in the low 60s thereafter (62.7% in his last 11 games; 63.8% in all games after the first 11).

That's certainly a huge improvement, but it's still shooting in the low-60s. I suppose if all three of this year's guys raised their percentages from the low- to mid-50s to the low- to mid-60s it would make a difference of around one point per game. That's not nothing, and I suppose a single point could be the deciding factor in a game or two, but I doubt that single point is worth devoting the majority of our practice time, either.

But if they all improve by the same quantum that Mason did (25%), then you are talking more like 3 points per game, not to mention added confidence in the ability to protect leads late in games. Now that would equate to them all shooting 75-80% from the line, which is pretty unlikely. But 70% combined should be achievable and would amount to ~2ppg based on current FTA rates. FWIW, I also expect Jah's FTA per game (currently 4.0) to go up as he regularly faces bigger, deeper and more physical opposing front courts.

[Duvall]

I certainly hope that the coaching staff doesn't have the same attitude about free throw shooting that Kedsy has.

My take on free throw shooting:

1) Free throw shooting is not just important, it's essential to a quality basketball team, especially as the season goes along and the competition gets tougher (read: tournament time). Free throw shooting could definitely make the difference between a Sweet 16 or Elite 8 team and a national champion.


Okay, but a lot of things could make the difference between a tournament win and a tournament loss. Execution of offensive sets, execution of defensive rotations, shooting from places other than the free throw line - and they all require practice time.

[Henderson]

Okay, but a lot of things could make the difference between a tournament win and a tournament loss. Execution of offensive sets, execution of defensive rotations, shooting from places other than the free throw line - and they all require practice time.

True, but two of those thing have to be done in a practice setting, because you need teammates. The other two of them can be done on your own. And if you are struggling with one those latter two things, the economy of practice time should not be a bar to substantial effort at improvement during the season.

[FerryFor50]

It will be interesting to see if K drops Elon off the schedule for the foreseeable future after their antics. After all, Elon needs Duke more than Duke needs Elon.

[arnie]

It will be interesting to see if K drops Elon off the schedule for the foreseeable future after their antics. After all, Elon needs Duke more than Duke needs Elon.

Wondered if anyone else had those thoughts. There are plenty of Elons about there, if K thinks this Elon is physically dangerous, he'll find a substitute Elons.

[luvdahops]

I'm not a lip reader, but it looked to me after Samson's thuggish smack on Tyus, K (clearly livid) was screaming, "You have to call that! You have to call that!" And he was right. Eddy made some crack after the game about Sheed trying to bully him and his not being bullied by anyone.

Whatever. Samson and Eddy combined for zero assists and 6 turnovers. Duke is 9-0, and Elon is 5-5.

Next play.A

I may be in the minority, but after Samson's move, I would have liked to see one of our guys deliver a not so subtle bump, elbow or shove to him once game action resumed, even if it resulted in a foul. I am glad that cooler heads prevailed after the Sheed-Eddy confrontation, because that could have gotten very ugly. But Samson's move was such an obvious, unprompted thug move that some degree of retaliation seemed appropriate.

[Henderson]

A

I may be in the minority, but after Samson's move, I would have liked to see one of our guys deliver a not so subtle bump, elbow or shove to him once game action resumed, even if it resulted in a foul. I am glad that cooler heads prevailed after the Sheed-Eddy confrontation, because that could have gotten very ugly. But Samson's move was such an obvious, unprompted thug move that some degree of retaliation seemed appropriate.

Between the Eddy and Samson plays, Coach K could be seen lecturing the players on the sideline. I'm guessing there was a "discussion" on that very point.

[Kedsy]

But if they all improve by the same quantum that Mason did (25%), then you are talking more like 3 points per game, not to mention added confidence in the ability to protect leads late in games. Now that would equate to them all shooting 75-80% from the line, which is pretty unlikely. But 70% combined should be achievable and would amount to ~2ppg based on current FTA rates.

Yeah, except the better you are (and "better" is certainly a relative term when comparing 38% to 50%), the more impossible it is to improve that much. 75% was top 20 in the ACC last season (among qualifiers). 80% was top 10. In my opinion there's a zero percent chance that any of these three guys get anywhere close to that this season, and probably not ever. Does anyone really think any of Jahlil, Justise, or Amile can mold themselves into top 10 or top 20 free throw shooters between now and March? That's just silly.

I don't think 70% combined is achievable at all, either. Frankly, I'll be very surprised if the three of them get as high as 65% in the aggregate. Low 60s, I think is a realistic goal, although that won't get us to a one point improvement per game.


FWIW, I also expect Jah's FTA per game (currently 4.0) to go up as he regularly faces bigger, deeper and more physical opposing front courts.

I completely agree with this.

[roywhite]

A

I may be in the minority, but after Samson's move, I would have liked to see one of our guys deliver a not so subtle bump, elbow or shove to him once game action resumed, even if it resulted in a foul. I am glad that cooler heads prevailed after the Sheed-Eddy confrontation, because that could have gotten very ugly. But Samson's move was such an obvious, unprompted thug move that some degree of retaliation seemed appropriate.

Tyler Thornton would have been the guy for that job. Wouldn't require even a glance or a nod from Coach K.

Doesn't hurt to have an enforcer on the team; Justise could be the guy, but he needs to be smarter about drawing fouls himself.

This Elon game may turn out to be considerably more of a learning experience than expected. Elon had some success with a rough style of play and Duke failed to convert well when fouls were called. Kentucky comes to mind as a team that could play Duke in a physical way, but still have the talent and depth to score. Before a late-season matchup with them will come other tests from physical teams like UVa, Louisville, and even Clemson. Let's see how the team handles those challenges.

[luvdahops]

Yeah, except the better you are (and "better" is certainly a relative term when comparing 38% to 50%), the more impossible it is to improve that much. 75% was top 20 in the ACC last season (among qualifiers). 80% was top 10. In my opinion there's a zero percent chance that any of these three guys get anywhere close to that this season, and probably not ever. Does anyone really think any of Jahlil, Justise, or Amile can mold themselves into top 10 or top 20 free throw shooters between now and March? That's just silly.

I don't think 70% combined is achievable at all, either. Frankly, I'll be very surprised if the three of them get as high as 65% in the aggregate. Low 60s, I think is a realistic goal, although that won't get us to a one point improvement per game.





Happy to disagree with you here, as I was on the Jah vs. Amile rebounding debate. I am pretty sure the Duke staff would consider 70% combined to be achievable. K's comments after the Elon game suggest that he expects Jah to shoot much better from the line, and if Mason can connect on 68% (as he did as a senior), there is no reason to believe that Okafor can't convert at a low to mid 70s rate, given superior mechanics and a softer touch. Similarly, if Justice can hit 3s at a 37% clip, I see no reason to think he can't quickly improve to be a 70% or better FT shooter. Amile is a tougher case, and he may never get above the low 60s.

If on average you assume Jahlil goes 5-7 (71%), Justice goes 3.6-5 (72%) and Amile goes 1.8-3 (60%) per game, it results in just a shade under 70% combined. And those are not outrageous assumptions in my view.

[JohnJ]

I don't think 70% combined is achievable at all, either. Frankly, I'll be very surprised if the three of them get as high as 65% in the aggregate. Low 60s, I think is a realistic goal, although that won't get us to a one point improvement.

All I know is that Justise shot 74% for his entire HS career on FT's and 80% his senior year.

[Kedsy]

Happy to disagree with you here, as I was on the Jah vs. Amile rebounding debate. I am pretty sure the Duke staff would consider 70% combined to be achievable. K's comments after the Elon game suggest that he expects Jah to shoot much better from the line, and if Mason can connect on 68% (as he did as a senior), there is no reason to believe that Okafor can't convert at a low to mid 70s rate, given superior mechanics and a softer touch. Similarly, if Justice can hit 3s at a 37% clip, I see no reason to think he can't quickly improve to be a 70% or better FT shooter. Amile is a tougher case, and he may never get above the low 60s.

If on average you assume Jahlil goes 5-7 (71%), Justice goes 3.6-5 (72%) and Amile goes 1.8-3 (60%) per game, it results in just a shade under 70% combined. And those are not outrageous assumptions in my view.

I'd love to be wrong, but I'll bet you right now that Jahlil will shoot worse than 70% from the line between now and season-end. I'll double the bet that the three of them collectively shoot worse than 70% from the line between now and season-end. And if you won't take the bets, you've got to ask yourself why?

[uh_no]

I'd love to be wrong, but I'll bet you right now that Jahlil will shoot worse than 70% from the line between now and season-end. I'll double the bet that the three of them collectively shoot worse than 70% from the line between now and season-end. And if you won't take the bets, you've got to ask yourself why?

haha can we sticky this bet?

[Indoor66]

I'd love to be wrong, but I'll bet you right now that Jahlil will shoot worse than 70% from the line between now and season-end. I'll double the bet that the three of them collectively shoot worse than 70% from the line between now and season-end. And if you won't take the bets, you've got to ask yourself why?

I won't take it for the same reason I don't take any one against the field. Nothing to do with Jahlil or the others, it is a succor bet. :cool:

[luvdahops]

I'd love to be wrong, but I'll bet you right now that Jahlil will shoot worse than 70% from the line between now and season-end. I'll double the bet that the three of them collectively shoot worse than 70% from the line between now and season-end. And if you won't take the bets, you've got to ask yourself why?

Done. How about $20 on each?

[rsvman]

The discussion that even if they improve their free throw shooting stats it will only net us 1 or 2 points in an "average" game miss the point entirely, because the time that poor free throw shooting really hurts the team is almost always in a "non-average" game setting.

Coach K is a coach that has long relied on icing a game with time management strategies ("stall ball," if you insist on that term). In that setting, there often comes a time when the opposing team has no other choice but to begin fouling to lengthen the game. Their chances of winning, at that point in time, are entirely dependent on our poor free throw shooting. In other words, if we shoot free throws well in that situation, we make it nearly impossible for the opponent to win.

We can all agree that Coach K is never going to change this strategy, whether it pleases or displeases the members of this forum.


So, the question is not "how many points will it cost us in an average game?" but rather "what will happen at crunch time?" That's the real question. Ideally, in that setting, you would field 5 guys who can shoot free throws at a reasonable clip. If the worst free throw shooter on the floor is at about 70% or so, no problem; the coach doesn't have to change his line-up in the end game. If somebody is at or about 50%, the coach would most likely have to bench that player, or switch players out offense for defense, etc. It's do-able, but suboptimal, in my opinion.

[luvdahops]

I'd love to be wrong, but I'll bet you right now that Jahlil will shoot worse than 70% from the line between now and season-end. I'll double the bet that the three of them collectively shoot worse than 70% from the line between now and season-end. And if you won't take the bets, you've got to ask yourself why?

Why don't we also add bets on whether Amile will average at least 8.5 rpg for the season, and whether Amile or Jah will lead the team in rebounding?

[Henderson]

Anyone else pick up K's discussion of Exam Week and academics at Duke in his post-game presser? I couldn't help feeling he was subtly engaging in some comparing, talking about how tough academics are at Duke and how the students have to do presentations and whatnot.

If you haven't seen it, those 3 minutes of the presser are pretty good. At one point he says something like, "At Duke academics are hard," with the emphasis on "Duke."

[Kedsy]

Done. How about $20 on each?

Done.


Why don't we also add bets on whether Amile will average at least 8.5 rpg for the season, and whether Amile or Jah will lead the team in rebounding?

Nah. I might have taken those a week ago, but not right after Jahlil pulled down 20 in one game.

[Edouble]

Anyone else pick up K's discussion of Exam Week and academics at Duke in his post-game presser? I couldn't help feeling he was subtly engaging in some comparing, talking about how tough academics are at Duke and how the students have to do presentations and whatnot.

If you haven't seen it, those 3 minutes of the presser are pretty good. At one point he says something like, "At Duke academics are hard," with the emphasis on "Duke."

I did pick up on that. It did seem like there was something beneath the surface in his comments.

I thought the post-Elon presser was part B to this summer's press conference (part A). I would go so far as to say that the post-Elon press conference is essential listening to anyone on this board. There was not much talk about the game. There was a lot of talk about how this team needs to collectively and actively decide what direction it is headed in. It's clear that Coach K is issuing a challenge to everyone on this team (including himself) to push boundaries and resist settling for what is easy, comfortable, and "normal".

[sagegrouse]

All I know is that Justise shot 74% for his entire HS career on FT's and 80% his senior year.

Bigger hoop? Shorter basket? Closer free throw line?

[Henderson]

Done. How about $20 on each?

A money bet? Nothing more creative?

[OldPhiKap]

Bigger hoop? Shorter basket? Closer free throw line?

FT defense is better at the college level.

[fidel]

A money bet? Nothing more creative?

I was thinking the same thing. Take Wheat out for a steak dinner or something.

[Kedsy]

A money bet? Nothing more creative?

If I lose the bets, I'll happily buy luvdahops the equivalent in beer (or the beverage of his choice) at the Final Four.

[flyingdutchdevil]

If I lose the bets, I'll happily buy luvdahops the equivalent in beer (or the beverage of his choice) at the Final Four.

Wow. This may be the first time I've been Kedsy overly optimistic! Or maybe Kedsy is going to the Final Four regardless of Duke being there.

[luvdahops]

If I lose the bets, I'll happily buy luvdahops the equivalent in beer (or the beverage of his choice) at the Final Four.

And I will do the same for Kedsy! Beer is the beverage of my choice btw.

[Kedsy]

And I will do the same for Kedsy! Beer is the beverage of my choice btw.

Mine too. And beer much more civilized (and fun) than a cash bet anyway. Here's hoping we have a reason to be in Indianapolis so that one of us has the opportunity to pay this bet off.

[mattman91]

And I will do the same for Kedsy! Beer is the beverage of my choice btw.

Why are you never in the Ymm, Beer thread?

[devildeac]

Why are you never in the Ymm, Beer thread?

This screen name reference to hops is probably verticalus leapus and not Humulus lupulus:o.

[luvdahops]

Why are you never in the Ymm, Beer thread?

I am over there occasionally, more to read than post though. Per my screen name, I am very partial IPAs (especially West Coast) and Pale Ales, so my tastes are not as wide-ranging as those of more frequent posters like devildeac, duketaylor and fuse. But if you scroll back through the thread, you will see my name in there a few times.

[luvdahops]

This screen name reference to hops is probably verticalus leapus and not Humulus lupulus:o.

Actually a reference to both :)

[luvdahops]

Mine too. And beer much more civilized (and fun) than a cash bet anyway. Here's hoping we have a reason to be in Indianapolis so that one of us has the opportunity to pay this bet off.

Agreed on both counts. Thanks for suggesting.