Podcast Forum Participation #2: Fixing Duke Hate

[Dev11]

Last week, we introduced the listener participation aspect of the podcast and got great responses. Here, then, is our question for this week, which Jason also mentioned in this week's episode.

How would you solve the general national resentment (re: hate) of Duke Basketball? Get creative and your answer might get mentioned on next week's episode!

[FerryFor50]

Last week, we introduced the listener participation aspect of the podcast and got great responses. Here, then, is our question for this week, which Jason also mentioned in this week's episode.

How would you solve the general national resentment (re: hate) of Duke Basketball? Get creative and your answer might get mentioned on next week's episode!

There isn't an easy way to do this.

The following would need to happen:

1) Coach K retires. The Snuggle bear takes over as head coach.

4584

2) Duke goes on a 120 game losing streak.

3) Duke adopts the "Carolina Way"

4) Duke washes all their blue jerseys in hot water with their white jerseys and takes the results as their new team colors.

5) In the midst of their 120 game losing streak, a group of Duke players rescue all the animals from a burning SPCA shelter.

Then we could talk about solving the Duke hate... :)

[Skitzle]

Duke plays a 39-0 Kentucky in the national championship for 3 years in a row and wins all three games.

People might have started hating Kentucky more than they hate Duke... the enemy of my enemy? I hate Kentucky more than I hate Duke ;)

[Henderson]

First of all, are you sure there is as much hate out there as we always hear?

http://www.harrisinteractive.com/NewsRoom/HarrisPolls/tabid/447/ctl/ReadCustom%20Default/mid/1508/ArticleId/1169/Default.aspx

Duke has spoiled a lot of teams' seasons, and we don't want to stop doing that. It's natural for those fans to have memories of "that game." Then there are those who cheer for underdogs and look for greatness to have its comeuppance. There is no solution other than to go on a slide and become pitied. And we certainly don't want that.

You want love? Buy a puppy.

[AncientPsychicT]

The #1 thing that breeds hate is winning. In order to get other teams' fans' sympathies, we'd have to go through a rough, prolonged down period. So I say, bring it on. I'd like as much hate as possible please. None of this "you haven't won in nearly a century, I'll root for you" pity. Winning championships >>> being well liked

[flyingdutchdevil]

The #1 thing that breeds hate is winning. In order to get other teams' fans' sympathies, we'd have to go through a rough, prolonged down period. So I say, bring it on. I'd like as much hate as possible please. None of this "you haven't won in nearly a century, I'll root for you" pity. Winning championships >>> being well liked

It's a lot of things, and winning is certainly one of them. But Kentucky, which has the "winning" coupled with a creepy coach, doesn't breed the polarization that Duke does. Yes, all Duke, Kansas, and UNC fans hate UK, but the loudest of these voices pail in comparison to the loudest voices who hate Duke.

Duke's hatred stems from so many things. To main a few:
-Winning in the 90s and 00s
-A coach with a supposedly whiny voice and impeccable dark hair
-History of unlikable players (Laettner, Wojo, Redick. If you weren't a Duke fan, would you like the persona of these players?)
-Supposedly an elitist, wealthy, and arrogant student body
-"Rich white Northern school" stuck in the "poor black South"

The hatred makes sense, although I don't necessarily agree with it. Fixing this "hatred" is another question. Is it necessary? I don't think so, as the hatred is based on how people perceive our student body or the fact that we're so good at winning rather than a scandal (Penn State, UNC, UK in the late 80s). I do think this hatred will exist as long as Coach K is coaching. And not because the hatred stems from Coach K (some of it does), but because whatever coach we have will have a 0.0001% chance of emulating the success that Coach K brought for 30+ years.

[wilson]

I agree with the above comments...decline in the program's overall performance would be the easiest way for us to cut into the hate. I'm reminded again of the quote I've thrown out several times from the Roman emperor Caligula..."Oderint dum metuant"...'Let them hate, so long as they fear.' We're in the same boat as the Yankees in that regard. Interestingly, though, the San Antonio Spurs, and to a somewhat lesser extent, the New England Patriots, have managed to build perennially winning programs without experiencing such a backlash. I don't have an explanation for that, except perhaps that Coach K is something of a lightning rod. We've seen fans of other programs complain in recent years that K's wide exposure via various marketing opportunities and the Team USA gig somehow affords Duke an unfair advantage. And it's definitely true that a lot of people don't care for his on-court manner or his general perceived smugness (this belies the New England Patriots counterexample somewhat, because I don't know any non-Patriot fans who like Bill Belichick). I wonder if our next coach is somehow "cuddlier," if that might somehow soften the program's image and reception without compromising success (although I think it's kind of a given that it will be almost impossible for K's successor to keep the program at such dizzying heights for so long).

[Bluedog]

It's a lot of things, and winning is certainly one of them. But Kentucky, which has the "winning" coupled with a creepy coach, doesn't breed the polarization that Duke does. Yes, all Duke, Kansas, and UNC fans hate UK, but the loudest of these voices pail in comparison to the loudest voices who hate Duke.

Duke's hatred stems from so many things. To main a few:
-Winning in the 90s and 00s
-A coach with a supposedly whiny voice and impeccable dark hair
-History of unlikable players (Laettner, Wojo, Redick. If you weren't a Duke fan, would you like the persona of these players?)
-Supposedly an elitist, wealthy, and arrogant student body
-"Rich white Northern school" stuck in the "poor black South"



I think you missed one major aspect of Duke that breeds hate -- the fact that it's a private school. No private school in college basketball has had the success that Duke has. Even Coach K has mentioned this fact with regards to the lack of local media backing for Duke (and instead they lavish praise over UNC, our direct rival! What other school has the majority of its local media hate that school's program?!?):
"We're not a state school so you don't have a press corps protecting you, you know what I mean? You're out there. That goes with the territory."
http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/24488880/coach-k-people-saying-duke-gets-all-the-calls-is-old-stuff

Coach K has also said one of the key things that the Duke program has done to change how it's perceived is to have a platform to show the other side of the Duke basketball program and players to the masses by having its own produced material. This is how Duke Blue Planet was born and why they have those interviews after every video -- trying to sculpt a truer picture of the student athletes than what is portrayed in other media outlets. So, I'd say aggressive campaigns like DBP are the way to bring in more fans -- and perhaps reduce some hate -- but certainly it's not going to change the perception for the majority of people.

As for the linked Harris poll above, Duke is typically #1 or #2 of the most loved programs, but ALSO #1 in the most hated. So, it's a program that people have strong feelings about. :)

[Henderson]

I think you missed one major aspect of Duke that breeds hate -- the fact that it's a private school. No private school in college basketball has had the success that Duke has. Even Coach K has mentioned this fact with regards to the lack of local media backing for Duke (and instead they lavish praise over UNC, our direct rival! What other school has the majority of its local media hate that school's program?!?):
"We're not a state school so you don't have a press corps protecting you, you know what I mean? You're out there. That goes with the territory."
http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/24488880/coach-k-people-saying-duke-gets-all-the-calls-is-old-stuff

Does a school's rigorous refusal to be forthcoming about a significant scandal make it a "private" school?

[Duvall]

Part of the problem with "fixing" Duke hate is that I don't think Duke hate has much of a reason at this point. People don't hate Duke because of anything Duke has or has not done, but because Duke is the school that is hated. Hating Duke is more of a focal point than anything else, a common ground for college basketball fans around the country.

That said, if we were going to try to mitigate Duke hate a bit, the best course would be to find a talented defensive coach from the Rust Belt, convince him that the best way to win is to do business with anyone, and be willing to look the other way for any rules violations, even blatant ones. Make sure he's a shameless self-promoter that has to be the center of attention at all times, and try to get him a job at a school with a particularly loud and obnoxious fanbase. If everything works out, no one will be talking nearly as much about how much they hate Duke.

[Henderson]

People don't hate Duke because of anything Duke has or has not done, but because Duke is the school that is hated. Hating Duke is more of a focal point than anything else, a common ground for college basketball fans around the country.

Before discussing reasons, are we sure it even exists? I hear lots of people saying they hate kale, and it still keeps flying off the shelves.

[wilson]

Before discussing reasons, are we sure it even exists? I hear lots of people saying they hate kale, and it still keeps flying off the shelves.Similarly, Ace of Base sold 23 million records from 1995 through 1997.

[AncientPsychicT]

the New England Patriots, have managed to build perennially winning programs without experiencing such a backlash.

As someone who was a Patriots fan until I stopped following the NFL a few years ago, I'm going to have to disagree pretty heavily on that one. Not only were (are?) NE haters more common than Duke haters, on average they were even dumber than the Duke hatedom, believe it or not. I was spending many more minutes laughing at NE-hate posts than at Duke-hate posts back in the day, as well as getting many more headaches and losing much more faith in humanity.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Similarly, Ace of Base sold 23 million records from 1995 through 1997.

I account for 2 of those 23 million records. Solid band. Gotta love them Swedes.

[Duvall]

Before discussing reasons, are we sure it even exists? I hear lots of people saying they hate kale, and it still keeps flying off the shelves.

Sure. The hate exists on the Internet - I've seen it. The hate exists in arenas around the country - I've heard it.

It's entirely plausible for Duke to be liked by a small plurality and hated by a much larger majority. (Indeed, it's likely that one reason Duke does well in these polls is name recognition, in part due to everyone talking about how much they hate Duke.)

[Henderson]

Sure. The hate exists on the Internet - I've seen it. The hate exists in arenas around the country - I've heard it.



Surely true. I hear it too. But there are lots of people who hate puppies, kittens, freedom, and brown shoes with gray suits too. All seem remarkably popular. I just don't hear the puppy fans burbling into their belly buttons quite so much about puppy haters.

[alteran]

Before discussing reasons, are we sure it even exists? I hear lots of people saying they hate kale, and it still keeps flying off the shelves.

Yeah, it does.

In just the last couple months:


I was at a bar, and I called to see if they had the Duke bball game on (it was on some wackadoodle network). They checked, and told me it would be on. When I got there-- and after ascertaining that I was the guy who called-- the host decided to regale me for five minutes* about what a great time he and his buddies had at the Duke football game a week prior, and how surprising the outcome was. I just sat there and smiled at him, wondering why he would do that to someone who would be tipping him later (assuming tip pooling). I chalked it up to typical UNC arrogance and Duke hate. I just don't think he would have done that to someone from NCSU. I didn't say anything back because I didn't want to be another "Dukie arrogance" story told around the campfire, but also because I DO. NOT. MESS. with people with any influence over preparing my food. For questions, see Fight Club.
I was hiking in Greyson Highlands and my party and I pulled over to let a group of hikers pass. Despite my polite deference, one of them felt the need to say, "Duke sucks" as she went by. (I was wearing a Duke cap).

On neither occasion did I get in anyone's face or talk junk-- I'm just not wired like that. The only interaction the second person had with me is that I moved over to let her party pass while wearing a Duke cap. But this crap is not unusual at all. I'll grant, part of it is the unmitigated arrogance of UNC fans, but the rest of it is coming from somewhere.

I just don't think any other fanbases deal with this kind of unsolicited crap on a regular basis.

So what about Duke makes Duke's winning so much more of a target than UNC, Kentucky or any one of a half dozen other prominent bball schools? I think it's UNC's j-school. Those creeps are everywhere, people. They didn't have to go to class, so they wandered around Chapel Hill for 5 years, nursing their Duke hate.** SI is littered with them. Ditto ESPN. They scatter like pale blue cockroaches all over the journalistic landscape. Stamp all you want folks-- the crunch may be satisfying, but they'll just breed more.

It's not a conspiracy, it's just the way things fell out.

--alteran

* Not an exaggeration. Seriously. Five. Minutes.

** Okay, THAT'S an exaggeration. Some of them made it out in 4.5 years. And maybe a few went to class by accident.

[jacone21]

brown shoes with gray suits


Man, I hate that!

[Nosbleuatu]

Yeah, it does.

In just the last couple months:


I was at a bar, and I called to see if they had the Duke bball game on (it was on some wackadoodle network). They checked, and told me it would be on. When I got there-- and after ascertaining that I was the guy who called-- the host decided to regale me for five minutes* about what a great time he and his buddies had at the Duke football game a week prior, and how surprising the outcome was. I just sat there and smiled at him, wondering why he would do that to someone who would be tipping him later (assuming tip pooling). I chalked it up to typical UNC arrogance and Duke hate. I just don't think he would have done that to someone from NCSU. I didn't say anything back because I didn't want to be another "Dukie arrogance" story told around the campfire, but also because I DO. NOT. MESS. with people with any influence over preparing my food. For questions, see Fight Club.
I was hiking in Greyson Highlands and my party and I pulled over to let a group of hikers pass. Despite my polite deference, one of them felt the need to say, "Duke sucks" as she went by. (I was wearing a Duke cap).

On neither occasion did I get in anyone's face or talk junk-- I'm just not wired like that. The only interaction the second person had with me is that I moved over to let her party pass while wearing a Duke cap. But this crap is not unusual at all. I'll grant, part of it is the unmitigated arrogance of UNC fans, but the rest of it is coming from somewhere.

I just don't think any other fanbases deal with this kind of unsolicited crap on a regular basis.

So what about Duke makes Duke's winning so much more of a target than UNC, Kentucky or any one of a half dozen other prominent bball schools? I think it's UNC's j-school. Those creeps are everywhere, people. They didn't have to go to class, so they wandered around Chapel Hill for 5 years, nursing their Duke hate.** SI is littered with them. Ditto ESPN. They scatter like pale blue cockroaches all over the journalistic landscape. Stamp all you want folks-- the crunch may be satisfying, but they'll just breed more.

It's not a conspiracy, it's just the way things fell out.

--alteran

* Not an exaggeration. Seriously. Five. Minutes.

** Okay, THAT'S an exaggeration. Some of them made it out in 4.5 years. And maybe a few went to class by accident.

I came in to say "losing for a prolonged period of time", but that notion seems to have been addressed fairly well. As a "solution" or attempt to fix the problem - an actual journalism program might be the best idea (not mine - see above).

[Henderson]

Yeah, it does.

In just the last couple months:

[LIST]
I was at a bar, and I called to see if they had the Duke bball game on (it was on some wackadoodle network). They checked, and told me it would be on. When I got there-- and after ascertaining that I was the guy who called-- the host decided to regale me for five minutes* about what a great time he and his buddies had at the Duke football game a week prior, and how surprising the outcome was. I just sat there and smiled at him, wondering why he would do that to someone who would be tipping him later (assuming tip pooling). I chalked it up to typical UNC arrogance and Duke hate. I just don't think he would have done that to someone from NCSU. I didn't say anything back because I didn't want to be another "Dukie arrogance" story told around the campfire, but also because I DO. NOT. MESS. with people with any influence over preparing my food. For questions, see Fight Club.
I was hiking in Greyson Highlands and my party and I pulled over to let a group of hikers pass. Despite my polite deference, one of them felt the need to say, "Duke sucks" as she went by. (I was wearing a Duke cap).


So you were at a bar. Then you went hiking. Got some crap. Only a Duke fan would ever experience that. Got it.

If this conversation is about whether rivals express hate, I won't disagree. Go to Oregon or Kansas or Oklahoma or Texas and live it. It's what we do.

But anecdotes about rivals making crude remarks doesn't for me demonstrate that Duke is hated any more than rivals or winners are "hated" generally.

Some of you quants must have some stats better or more recent than the ones I posted above showing that, on balance, people love Duke basketball.

[hurleyfor3]

1) Coach K retires. The Snuggle bear takes over as head coach.

2) Duke goes on a 120 game losing streak.

You do realize there already exists a sports franchise with a long history of losing (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=cubs/0919) and a Snuggle Bear as its mascot (http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq320/Cubheadkev/ChicagoCubs1969CubbieBearlogo.jpg), no?


Some of you quants must have some stats better or more recent than the ones I posted above showing that, on balance, people love Duke basketball.

Here's the same poll you linked to (http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Daily/Issues/2014/03/27/Research-and-Ratings/Harris-Poll.aspx) but a year newer (2014).

[hurleyfor3]

Anyway, separate post, back to the question. The best way to deal with "Duke Hate" is to ignore it. We need to take after Yankees fans, who work to cultivate hatred from other fanbases.

The funniest Duke hate I've received has been from Princeton alumni. Seriously, you got into Princeton. We were your safety school 23 years ago and you still hate us? That's awesome.

[Billy Dat]

What if the current Duke team and NBA alumni trained as Special Ops and the influential non-playing team alums trained as diplomats and, led by K, managed to definitively defeat ISIL, broker a lasting Isreali/Palestine peace, solve the Syrian civil war and the various civil wars in Africa and somehow miraculously united Congress leading to the next American Golden Age?

It just wouldn't matter, because all of the above would be attributed to a charge call we got with 7 minutes left that surely decided the battle.

Embrace the Hate, it keeps us warm.

[flyingdutchdevil]

What if the current Duke team and NBA alumni trained as Special Ops and the influential non-playing team alums trained as diplomats and, led by K, managed to definitively defeat ISIL, broker a lasting Isreali/Palestine peace, solve the Syrian civil war and the various civil wars in Africa and somehow miraculously united Congress leading to the next American Golden Age?

It just wouldn't matter, because all of the above would be attributed to a charge call we got with 7 minutes left that surely decided the battle.

Embrace the Hate, it keeps us warm.

Sorry, can't spork you. But you absolutely deserve all the sporks you can get for this post.

NOTE: you forgot curing Ebola ;)

[alteran]

So you were at a bar. Then you went hiking. Got some crap. Only a Duke fan would ever experience that. Got it..
Thanks for the sarcasm, denigration, and misconstruing of my statements. And to think I got you nothing for the holiday season.:(

I see how you ignored my point about UNC representation in national (and, of course, local) media. It must be that point was too insignificant to argue with. More winning argumentation for you, I guess.

But anecdotes about rivals making crude remarks doesn't for me demonstrate that Duke is hated any more than rivals or winners are "hated" generally.
Good point. I agree that it doesn't. IN AND OF ITSELF.

But throw in a personal lifetime of such anecdotes, the ridiculous ref hate conspiracy thing Duke dealt with for years, a string of hate articles in the national press (not just local), and it sure smells like a pattern. Don't believe me, believe google (https://www.google.com/#q=duke+hate+articles). Feel free to to change the search terms to other universities and see if you get as prominent a series of national press playing to the Duke hate.

No, go ahead and google it. We'll wait.

The part where the national media talked for years about Duke getting all the calls is, AFAIK, unique. I've never seen the national media treat a program like that.

The hate thing seems to have died down a bit over the years. It's still there, but it isn't as bad as it once was-- in fact, it's downright tolerable these days. Doesn't mean it's gone away entirely.

[AustinDevil]

So you were at a bar. Then you went hiking. Got some crap. Only a Duke fan would ever experience that. Got it.

If this conversation is about whether rivals express hate, I won't disagree. Go to Oregon or Kansas or Oklahoma or Texas and live it. It's what we do.

But anecdotes about rivals making crude remarks doesn't for me demonstrate that Duke is hated any more than rivals or winners are "hated" generally.

Some of you quants must have some stats better or more recent than the ones I posted above showing that, on balance, people love Duke basketball.

I'm not sure how to read your "Go [elsewhere] and live it" sentence, but I will say with confidence that people hate Duke here in Texas, well out of proportion to how much they care about other non-local basketball powers. My personal opinion is that it is the perceived arrogance of K and a long list of not-easy-to-love players.

[Henderson]

Thanks for the sarcasm, denigration, and misconstruing of my statements. And to think I got you nothing for the holiday season.:(

I see how you ignored my point about UNC representation in national (and, of course, local) media. It must be that point was too insignificant to argue with. More winning argumentation for you, I guess.

Good point. I agree that it doesn't. IN AND OF ITSELF.

But throw in a personal lifetime of such anecdotes, the ridiculous ref hate conspiracy thing Duke dealt with for years, a string of hate articles in the national press (not just local), and it sure smells like a pattern. Don't believe me, believe google (https://www.google.com/#q=duke+hate+articles). Feel free to to change the search terms to other universities and see if you get as prominent a series of national press playing to the Duke hate.

No, go ahead and google it. We'll wait.

The part where the national media talked for years about Duke getting all the calls is, AFAIK, unique. I've never seen the national media treat a program like that.

The hate thing seems to have died down a bit over the years. It's still there, but it isn't as bad as it once was-- in fact, it's downright tolerable these days. Doesn't mean it's gone away entirely.

Well now, don't let yout patriotism bar you from providing a like minded soul with a Google reference you know about. I trust the search leads to statistical data rather than the usual blather from rivals. All teams suffer that if they are successful. Most whine. Some do not.

So where are the Google searches that lead me to statisics documenting Duke hate? I'm open. I've thrown out some very limited stats that point a different direction. Not perfect so update, trump, or improve.

My point: People "hate" winners, rivals, and the guy who beat them. Duke checks boxes for a lot of people on those metrics. Any sense of Duke excetionalism in that regard is vanity.

[ricks68]

I'm not sure how to read your "Go [elsewhere] and live it" sentence, but I will say with confidence that people hate Duke here in Texas, well out of proportion to how much they care about other non-local basketball powers. My personal opinion is that it is the perceived arrogance of K and a long list of not-easy-to-love players.

Yeah. But then, I really enjoyed sitting in a decent size Duke alumni section with our Alumni at a Houston sports bar watching JJ torch Texas for 42 in a total beat down. At the very beginning, the rest of fans in the sports bar were cheering when UT made a basket, and then went totally silent the rest of the game as we just destroyed them. As Mel Brooks would say: "It's good to be the King."

Let 'um hate.:)

(Besides, the next day, the Texas fans have never even heard of Duke------or there even being a basketball program at UT.:rolleyes:)

ricks

[jv001]

We pay Billy Packer and pair him with Len Elmore. All they have to do is start the "Kentucky get's all the calls" in every game. Even the games the Wildcats are not playing in. These two guys got this whole Duke hate started in the first place. We need a team to take Duke's place and Kentucky is the best one available. I would have said UNC, but they're not that good right now. GoDuke!

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

So... what I have learned from this thread is that not only are we hated, we are competitive about precisely how much hate we have personally experienced?

For those who say that prolonged losing would end the hate, I'm not so sure. Growing up in Charlotte in the 1980's, I was always the only Duke fan in the room. And that's back when Duke "couldn't win the big one," and Lord Smith of Dean ruled the state.

Though, that's rival hate. My UNC fanatic neighbor Marty isn't going to stop hating Duke no matter what happens with the progra, and I wouldn't expect him to. I don't think winning or losing have much effect on that.

To my mind, what we are discussing here is the hate of the general population. Having lived in places all over the US (Vermont, Seattle, California) I have to admit I encountered much more indifference than hate. Or rather, just the peripheral dislike of people who don't really follow college basketball. I acknowledge that it might have been different if I spent lots of time in Indiana, Kentucky, Kansas, or other basketball-mad areas.

So, in my experience, it's more the constant whining and buzzing of commentators or the big sports media talking about Duke getting calls, or being giddy about an upset or near-upset that bothers me regularly. And that is unlike to change as long as Coach K wins 1,000 games, Duke gets top recruits, and we keep winning games. So, I choose to embrace it.

[alteran]

Well now, don't let yout patriotism bar you from providing a like minded soul with a Google reference you know about. I trust the search leads to statistical data rather than the usual blather from rivals.

Oh, I did include a link that included stuff that wasn't "the usual blather from rivals." Did I need to click that link for you as well? Oh, I did? Fair enough.

What it shows is national media piling on Duke, over and over. CNN, Slate, USAToday, that kind of thing. Similar searches of other universities do NOT turn up such sources, rather they turn up articles from fan websites. And nowhere near as many. When they do show national articles, they tend to be ones about ... wait for it... hating Duke!

I thought you'd be eager to show me counter-examples since your case is apparently so airtight that you can afford to be insulting about it, but I only received the usual blather. I'm going to take that as a, "you're right, alteran, I couldn't find much."

Now, is that double-blind empirical proof? Nope. But you know you haven't shown anything better to make your case.


So where are the Google searches that lead me to statisics documenting Duke hate? I'm open. I've thrown out some very limited stats that point a different direction. Not perfect so update, trump, or improve.

You refer to your massive data dump of one survey? It says that Duke has the highest approval rating among college bball programs. That would be an excellent survey if we were debating which programs were the most popular.

Now, in a world where argumentative fallacies carried the day, this would also be a great link disproving Duke hate. Unfortunately for you, presence of one thing is not proof of the absence of the converse. I refer you to basic argumentative fallacies (https://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/fallacies_list.html).


My point: People "hate" winners, rivals, and the guy who beat them. Duke checks boxes for a lot of people on those metrics. Any sense of Duke excetionalism in that regard is vanity.

Oh, THAT'S your point. Well, rest easy knowing no one is disputing that winning creates animosity.

What we are referring to is something above and beyond that normal level of rivalry hate. Frankly, I don't think such a thing is provable using statistical methods. If it were, I think funding would be a bit of a problem.

So, when you publish your double-blind statistical analysis showing that Duke is hated no more than anyone else that wins, well, I'll gladly concede the point. In the meantime, I'll just have to trust my lying eyes, the plethora a national media articles documenting and displaying Duke hate, and, yes, the ridiculous anecdotal stuff I've come across over the years.

[Monmouth77]

I am not sure whether the podcast is looking for a genuine suggestion here, or whether this is more or less a joke, but I have noticed something of a correlation between the volume of "hate" and the quality of talent and team play.

And I think that's because the average jaded opposing fan (or even the committed "hater") feels especially enraged when they tune into ESPN broadcast after ESPN broadcast and hear a constant stream of positive Duke accolades and then see a team on the floor that does not quite match the rhetoric. I feel like peak-Duke hate coincided with a recent period when we played slightly below Duke's lofty expectations for a few years (roughly 2006-2009), lost to lower seeded teams in the Tournament every year, had somewhat less then the very best elite talent, and lost a few games where we were physically outclassed (v. LSU in '06, v. WVU in '08, v. Villanova in '09).

Duke hate flows in these scenarios because the favorite caricatures of the haters -- private school wimps/jerks/nerds who lack elite athleticism but somehow get all the praise -- feel like they have more substance. "All we can do is shoot threes and take charges." "The refs have to bail us out on defense b/c we can't hang with the superior athletes on the other team." "We are overrated based on reputation," etc.

But when we have dominant first rate talent that is clicking, these sorts of tropes just fall flat. I am sure those most fevered Carolina fans and other assorted haters are cooking up some kind of conspiracy theory or another about why Duke is super-unlikeable and unfairly praised this year, but if we keep playing a dominant brand of basketball, the hate will be quiet(er).

So I guess I'd say, just win baby!

[Highlander]

There are people you will never change. They will hate Duke until the day they die. Many of them have good reason (Kentucky fans vs. Laettner, UNC fans vs. Austin Rivers or Gerald Henderson, for example), others of them are just mean (MD fans in College Park).

I think it is interesting to look at why teams like San Antonio or Michigan State are not hated, but teams like the Heat or the Yankees are. America loves an underdog, and hates the favorite. It is ingrained in our culture to want the little guy to succeed. San Antonio, despite having some sustained success and numerous titles, is still the underdog to LeBron James and the Miami Heat/Cleveland Cavaliers. Michigan State was/is as well. They are seen as blue collar and everyman. Duke was the underdog up till 1991 when they knocked off UNLV. At that time, UNC was the big bad team everyone in NC hated and wanted to see fail.

Secondly, after the Underdog wins big, we expect them to fade and allow the next Cinderella story to manifest itself. Certainly most people in the US outside of New England were pulling for the Giants when they played the undefeated Patriots in the Super Bowl a few years ago. Everyone except Yankee fans like it when they flame out. And most fans probably pulled for Kentucky in 1992 to knock us off our throne. We had our time in the sun, and it was time for a new underdog. Failing to go away leads to resentment.

For many years I think Duke just ignored it, and it got way out of hand. Coach K finally realized that arguing about it wasn't going to change things, so he set out to change the PR around the team. I think Duke Blue Planet has been a great way to show a personable side to the basketball players. It has also helped that outside of Austin Rivers, we really haven't had a player that drew attention to himself during a game since JJ Redick. It is hard to hate a guy like Marshall Plumlee when you watch his goofy videos.

You do need to have a thick skin. People will give you crap about the team you like if they dislike said team. Don't take offense to it; just smile and tip your cap. Maybe add a smug remark as a counter punch. You're probably not going to change their mind by arguing with them, so don't try. But getting offended because someone says "Duke Sucks" is a bit too thin skinned IMO.

[Henderson]

Oh, I did include a link that included stuff that wasn't "the usual blather from rivals." Did I need to click that link for you as well? Oh, I did? Fair enough.

What it shows is national media piling on Duke, over and over. CNN, Slate, USAToday, that kind of thing. Similar searches of other universities do NOT turn up such sources, rather they turn up articles from fan websites. And nowhere near as many. When they do show national articles, they tend to be ones about ... wait for it... hating Duke!

I thought you'd be eager to show me counter-examples since your case is apparently so airtight that you can afford to be insulting about it, but I only received the usual blather. I'm going to take that as a, "you're right, alteran, I couldn't find much."

Now, is that double-blind empirical proof? Nope. But you know you haven't shown anything better to make your case.



You refer to your massive data dump of one survey? It says that Duke has the highest approval rating among college bball programs. That would be an excellent survey if we were debating which programs were the most popular.

Now, in a world where argumentative fallacies carried the day, this would also be a great link disproving Duke hate. Unfortunately for you, presence of one thing is not proof of the absence of the converse. I refer you to basic argumentative fallacies (https://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/fallacies_list.html).



Oh, THAT'S your point. Well, rest easy knowing no one is disputing that winning creates animosity.

What we are referring to is something above and beyond that normal level of rivalry hate. Frankly, I don't think such a thing is provable using statistical methods. If it were, I think funding would be a bit of a problem.

So, when you publish your double-blind statistical analysis showing that Duke is hated no more than anyone else that wins, well, I'll gladly concede the point. In the meantime, I'll just have to trust my lying eyes, the plethora a national media articles documenting and displaying Duke hate, and, yes, the ridiculous anecdotal stuff I've come across over the years.


Whoa whoa. A bit excited? We're just having a bit of fun.

Try Googling "I hate puppies" and tell me there isn't a world of puppy haters who need to be analyzed. Or ask at the local pub. Or wherever your science takes you.

[gurufrisbee]

The Duke hatred is truly completely jealousy of their success and/or stupidity. The only ways to counter that are Duke being unsuccessful (not interested) or the haters becoming smarter and more reasonable and honest (not likely).

[Dukehky]

No more good white players!!!! Duh. Most die hard college basketball fans are white dudes. Psychologically there is a sense of jealousy that arises when people who look like you do things you wish you could do way better than you and there are no blatant physical differences to account for that superiority.

We should also stop doing close ups of the student section on TV. As a group the crazies are cool most of the time (they're even better when they get mean and clever), but when you do close ups and see the individuals that make up the group (not all of us, I was there too, I think I'm cool) there aren't a whole lot of people who you would think would be fun at a party.

Also, why would I want to stop the hate? I love and cherish it. It'll put hair on your chest. Sorry ladies, happens to you too. bust out the wax.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

No more good white players!!!! Duh. Most die hard college basketball fans are white dudes. Psychologically there is a sense of jealousy that arises when people who look like you do things you wish you could do way better than you and there are no blatant physical differences to account for that superiority.

We should also stop doing close ups of the student section on TV. As a group the crazies are cool most of the time (they're even better when they get mean and clever), but when you do close ups and see the individuals that make up the group (not all of us, I was there too, I think I'm cool) there aren't a whole lot of people who you would think would be fun at a party.

Also, why would I want to stop the hate? I love and cherish it. It'll put hair on your chest. Sorry ladies, happens to you too. bust out the wax.

This depends A LOT on where you are.

[weezie]

Sounds like a super dumb thread/podcast topic to me. Any time spent gas-bagging about hatred towards Duke is only going to make you guys look pathetic.

Try coming up with something else.

[alteran]

Whoa whoa. A bit excited? We're just having a bit of fun.

Try Googling "I hate puppies" and tell me there isn't a world of puppy haters who need to be analyzed. Or ask at the local pub. Or wherever your science takes you.

Cute. And condescending. It suits you.

Again, you really haven't made any points-- or defended your own. You just fire cheap shots and expect someone else to find you some sort of peer-reviewed study to support opinion. Which, from what I can tell, is what you think science is.

To summarize: your survey proves nothing. Your complete lack of ... whatever you think science is... doesn't really beat my lack of same.

And since you think making people hunt things down on the internet is good fun, it should be no problem for you to find some articles from national publications documenting as much hate at some other universality as I can find targeted at Duke. The ones against Duke are not very hard to find.

[brevity]

Sounds like a super dumb thread/podcast topic to me. Any time spent gas-bagging about hatred towards Duke is only going to make you guys look pathetic.

Try coming up with something else.

I disagree. It's actually not a bad topic, but most people on DBR are ill-equipped to answer it. The fact of the matter is that for every few of you who truly believe that you rise above the hatred, there are so many more of you that constantly remind us all of our collective sensitivity.

Duke hatred is real. I don't think that the people who hate Duke most are so consumed by the hate that they can think of nothing else. It's more like a hobby. Duke hatred differs from general rival hatred because it's national. And it differs from, say, Notre Dame national hatred* because it extends beyond sports: people hate the school and anyone affiliated with it. We could build a separate thread (not recommended, but we could) about all the real and imagined factors that got us to this point.

I've commented on many past threads that the best way to address Duke hate is to dilute it with more hate. (Love doesn't work.) There needs to be a Truth About Carolina media movement, and it needs Duke involvement. It's unclear to me why NC State and other outsiders are doing our dirty work.

Until then, I think the proper approach is to ask the offender a one-word question: "Why?" Act genuinely curious why this person hates Duke so much, like they're the first dissenter you've ever encountered. Anticipate their answers. Say things like this:

"Yeah, Duke is in the mix every year. So is Arizona. Lots of programs are. But what's great about college basketball is that anyone can win the tournament, because it isn't pre-ordained. Except for Connecticut. I don't know how those bastards keep winning titles."

"Of course people hate Coach K. He's been around forever. People felt the same way about Dean Smith before he retired."

"Didn't JJ Redick graduate, like, 8 years ago?"

"Oh, I like this idea! Let's think of all the butt-ugly guards that have ever played college ball. I'll start, and we'll alternate. Steve Blake..."

"The Crazies? Hey, if they want to spend their time hanging out with each other in tents and painting their faces and jumping around, be my guest. Better them than me."

Most importantly, never sound passionate about the subject. Then the conversation goes from "Should Duke be hated?" to "Why have I wasted so much of my life being angry about this?" If they're a fan of another ACC team, then they have a legitimate gripe, and that's fine. But my guess is that they've decided to hate Duke because it's fashionable, and for no real reason that is personal to them.

* For those of you wondering about the causal relationship between winning and hatred, look at Notre Dame football. They were irrelevant for a while, but they didn't suddenly become likable. On that national stage, hatred just became fatigue, which isn't that much better.

[hurleyfor3]

Until then, I think the proper approach is to ask the offender a one-word question: "Why?"

My canned response is, "Thanks for caring."

[DukeDevil]

Duke hatred is real. I don't think that the people who hate Duke most are so consumed by the hate that they can think of nothing else. It's more like a hobby. Duke hatred differs from general rival hatred because it's national. And it differs from, say, Notre Dame national hatred* because it extends beyond sports: people hate the school and anyone affiliated with it. We could build a separate thread (not recommended, but we could) about all the real and imagined factors that got us to this point. * For those of you wondering about the causal relationship between winning and hatred, look at Notre Dame football. They were irrelevant for a while, but they didn't suddenly become likable. On that national stage, hatred just became fatigue, which isn't that much better.

I agree with your post on a personal level (what the individual can do).

As for an more general approach, I think Duke has already started it, and it started shortly after the "duke gets all the calls!" period in the early to mid 2000's which was started by sweaty Gary. I noticed more of an effort to have an active role in positive media relations. Increased accessibility to the assistant coaches at halftime (K would never stop to talk) was one thing I noticed. Additionally, there is the initiation of things like Dukeblueplanet which I admit caters more towards the active fans and to potential recruits. Regardless, I think the biggest obstacle to fixing Duke Hate is that there is too much media attraction to it. It's like how much attention the "Muslim" gunman/hostage taker in Australia garnered when there was also a former Marine reservist who went on a shooting spree in the US and hardly got the same attention (I don't mention that to start an off topic debate, it's just an example of how media, including sports media, tends to focus on hot topics and what they think viewership wants to see).

Unfortunately, I think at the end of the day, for Duke not to be hated means we are not relevant...so I'd say bring on the hate. The key to me is managing and preventing the overreaching consequences, such as when I feel that ref calls were impacted by the national spotlight on "duke getting all the calls."

[Mike Corey]

I was out to eat in Columbus, wearing a Duke hat, when our waitress came over and very quickly acknowledged my Duke hat.

"I know, I know, everyone hates Duke. I hope you'll serve me regardless," I said, defensively.

"Oh no," she said, "I mean, I used to, but now I love Duke."

She then paused to take a breath, which I assumed meant a joke was coming. I was quite wrong.

"A few years ago, my little brother was diagnosed with a rare brain cancer. We either couldn't find anyone to help him, or couldn't afford the help. And then we met this doctor at Duke. He kept our costs to a minimum, he took incredible care of all of us, and my brother is in remission now because of him. But he also introduced my brother to the basketball players, Coach K sent him letters and hung out with him a lot, it was just incredible. So we all love Duke in our family."

She'd begun to cry, and frankly all of us had as well, so I had to lighten the mood.

"So that's what it takes!"

She knew precisely where I was going with it and played along. "Just cure someone I know of cancer and it'll be impossible to keep hating Duke!"

[DukeDevil]

"Just cure someone I know of cancer and it'll be impossible to keep hating Duke!"

tears? what? no, I just *sniff* got some dust in my eye.

What a great story, thanks for sharing. I see videos and articles and posts about the players visiting duke children's hospital all the time. I work at a hospital, (adult side) but what a great surprise for all these kids to have these superstars (and in several cases, future pro superstars!) spend time with them. It goes a long way in the healing process.

[-jk]

I was out to eat in Columbus, wearing a Duke hat, when our waitress came over and very quickly acknowledged my Duke hat.

"I know, I know, everyone hates Duke. I hope you'll serve me regardless," I said, defensively.

"Oh no," she said, "I mean, I used to, but now I love Duke."

She then paused to take a breath, which I assumed meant a joke was coming. I was quite wrong.

"A few years ago, my little brother was diagnosed with a rare brain cancer. We either couldn't find anyone to help him, or couldn't afford the help. And then we met this doctor at Duke. He kept our costs to a minimum, he took incredible care of all of us, and my brother is in remission now because of him. But he also introduced my brother to the basketball players, Coach K sent him letters and hung out with him a lot, it was just incredible. So we all love Duke in our family."

She'd begun to cry, and frankly all of us had as well, so I had to lighten the mood.

"So that's what it takes!"

She knew precisely where I was going with it and played along. "Just cure someone I know of cancer and it'll be impossible to keep hating Duke!"

Jason,

Can you find this waitress (probably via Duke rather than the restaurant!)? Or if not, get Mike to tell his story?

I think it's a winner...

-jk

[tele]

I was out to eat in Columbus, wearing a Duke hat, when our waitress came over and very quickly acknowledged my Duke hat.

"I know, I know, everyone hates Duke. I hope you'll serve me regardless," I said, defensively.

"Oh no," she said, "I mean, I used to, but now I love Duke."

She then paused to take a breath, which I assumed meant a joke was coming. I was quite wrong.

"A few years ago, my little brother was diagnosed with a rare brain cancer. We either couldn't find anyone to help him, or couldn't afford the help. And then we met this doctor at Duke. He kept our costs to a minimum, he took incredible care of all of us, and my brother is in remission now because of him. But he also introduced my brother to the basketball players, Coach K sent him letters and hung out with him a lot, it was just incredible. So we all love Duke in our family."

She'd begun to cry, and frankly all of us had as well, so I had to lighten the mood.

"So that's what it takes!"

She knew precisely where I was going with it and played along. "Just cure someone I know of cancer and it'll be impossible to keep hating Duke!"

I believe Robert Novak the DC columnist and Maryland fan had a similar experience at Duke Hospital and wrote about it, before his passing. May want to tie that column in.

I believe that most of the very vocal "haters" are fans of schools who have strong basketball programs. There is a lasting resentment there that is real and I have always thought due more to losing recruiting battles than games. Unlike most schools, Duke recruits nationally and has gotten top players from most states with strong basketball traditions. So if I was to address this hate component I would first sort the haters by the schools they support and then list the recruits that school missed on and Duke landed. Not just hating for getting all the calls but for getting all the players from other schools back yards. Those losses aren't quickly forgotten especially when you see those Duke recruits going on to prominent College success and long NBA careers. This source of Duke hate showed up recently in the form of some trumped up recruiting advantage that Duke gained by having Coach K coaching the National team.

As far as what you do about it, I would suggest pointing out what a great player and person the recruit in question happened to be and how great it was that they chose to go to Duke. It is much harder to hate your own local native star players that went on to play at Duke, than Duke itself. You could also point to some great recruits their school had landed and Duke had missed on or not recruited. Duke doesn't get all the players reminders, sort of thing.

For some media members, like Packer, Elmore and Rose, it may not be a treatable condition because their real gripe about Duke is they weren't recruited by Duke at all.

[lotusland]

I can't explain Duke hate but I hate UNC even when they lose. In fact it's way more fun to hate them when they lose. Hating them when they win is downright frustrating.