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MPandolfi
12-14-2014, 04:09 PM
Numerous reports on Twitter stating that Semi is transferring and will not return after this semester. Can't say I blame him, but a bummer none the less.

Billy Dat
12-14-2014, 04:10 PM
Laura Keeley @laurakeeley · 9m 9 minutes ago
Semi Ojeleye is transferring from Duke, the school announces in an email

Billy Dat
12-14-2014, 04:12 PM
I guess we both saw this at the same time.

It's always a sad day when this happens. I hope he finds the right spot. Should he want to head home, I am sure Gregg Marshall would roll out the red carpet.

Duke95
12-14-2014, 04:12 PM
Laura Keeley @laurakeeley · 9m 9 minutes ago
Semi Ojeleye is transferring from Duke, the school announces in an email

Not surprising. Wish him the best.

Kedsy
12-14-2014, 04:17 PM
It's always a sad day when this happens. I hope he finds the right spot.

I agree. Sad. And I wish Semi the best in the future.

MPandolfi
12-14-2014, 04:18 PM
I guess we both saw this at the same time.

It's always a sad day when this happens. I hope he finds the right spot. Should he want to head home, I am sure Gregg Marshall would roll out the red carpet.

I dont remember who offered him, but I recall Indiana and Stamford being two of them. IU is a bit of a dumpster fire right now, but it would be nice to see him suit up for the Cardinals.

fisheyes
12-14-2014, 04:22 PM
https://www.dukechronicle.com/articles/2014/12/14/semi-ojeleye-transfer-duke#.VI3_TmTF_go

Best of luck Semi...

Clay Feet POF
12-14-2014, 04:22 PM
He would be a Godsend for Wojo at Marquette. I think it works for both parties. I'm praying!

CDu
12-14-2014, 04:23 PM
It has been said before, but if you are a recruit in the RSCI 30-50 range, Duke is an awfully tough place to find playing time. It is certainly not surprising news, as Ojeleye would have been fighting an uphill battle for PT even into his senior year. Best wishes to him.

OldPhiKap
12-14-2014, 04:26 PM
Best wishes to a guy with lots of upside.

fuse
12-14-2014, 04:32 PM
As others have said, sad but not surprising.
I had Dahntay Jones like visions in my head for his future.

Best of luck Semi, I hope you find the right place for you.

BD80
12-14-2014, 04:33 PM
Could this be an indicator of good news re: Ingram?

Sorry to see Semi say so long

We will soon see a Semi transport cross-county

cspan37421
12-14-2014, 04:44 PM
I dont remember who offered him, but I recall Indiana and Stamford being two of them. IU is a bit of a dumpster fire right now, but it would be nice to see him suit up for the Cardinals.

The Stamford Cardinals? Where John E. Dawkins coaches? But you're right, the Whoosiers could use him too.

bbosbbos
12-14-2014, 04:50 PM
Best wishes to him.

But, but he needs to be a little bit more patient. Next year he will have chance to play forward with improved D. Jeter & MP3 at 5, Amile starting at 4 and needs a backup. Winslow will be playing in NBA next year if we get into final four this year. So sf spot is open. Ingrim is still a question.

On the other hand, go check Alex Murphy and Mike Bbinije's games. The two recent Duke transfers have not started for their teams yet.

MChambers
12-14-2014, 04:56 PM
Best wishes to him.

But, but he needs to be a little bit more patient. Next year he will have chance to play forward with improved D. Jeter & MP3 at 5, Amile starting at 4 and needs a backup. Winslow will be playing in NBA next year if we get into final four this year. So sf spot is open. Ingrim is still a question.

On the other hand, go check Alex Murphy and Mike Bbinije's games. The two recent Duke transfers have not started for their teams yet.
Don't think Murphy is eligible yet, so that's not much of a comparison.

MulletMan
12-14-2014, 04:58 PM
Best wishes to him.

But, but he needs to be a little bit more patient. Next year he will have chance to play forward with improved D. Jeter & MP3 at 5, Amile starting at 4 and needs a backup. Winslow will be playing in NBA next year if we get into final four this year. So sf spot is open. Ingrim is still a question.

On the other hand, go check Alex Murphy and Mike Bbinije's games. The two recent Duke transfers have not started for their teams yet.

Winslow will be playing in the NBA next year if we lose in the first round of the NIT.

Henderson
12-14-2014, 04:59 PM
I've been a booster, and I hate see him go. I wish him the best.

Maybe somewhere closer to home? K-State where his brother went? Wichita State?

mr. synellinden
12-14-2014, 05:04 PM
I always hate seeing the word transferring in a thread title. I sincerely hope this is the only one of this season. One significant issue that is concerning about this is the impact on practices - do we now only have 9 scholarship players to practice, including Obi?

Kedsy
12-14-2014, 05:06 PM
I always hate seeing the word transferring in a thread title. I sincerely hope this is the only one of this season. One significant issue that is concerning about this is the impact on practices - do we now only have 9 scholarship players to practice, including Obi?

We have 10, including Obi.

Dukehky
12-14-2014, 05:09 PM
Don't think Murphy is eligible yet, so that's not much of a comparison.

Correct, he will be eligible at the start of 2015.

Semi is really smart. Which was, I think a big reason why he chose Duke. If I had to see him land somewhere, I hope that it is Stanford, that way he will be able to continue his academically impressive college career. Would not be shocked by Wichita State though.

Also Re: Ingram, I think that this has much more to do with our pursuit of Caleb Swanigan. From what it looks like, we have put the full court press on that kid either because Semi informed the coaches that he thought we was transferring or was really turned off by being recruited over pretty late in the game. With regard to Ingram, I honestly think that he will commit to Duke very soon after Justise declares for the NBA draft. At least I hope so. He is very skilled, but not particularly strong. We haven't had a guy like him in a long time. I really rangy 3 man.

Bluegrassdevil1
12-14-2014, 05:16 PM
Good for the kid, and likely good for Duke. Ojeleye wants playing time, likely will never get it at Duke, Duke gets an open scholarship. Win-win for everyone involved.

As others have said, Stanford would be wonderful to see, but I think he could really help the Wheat Shockers, and it would be neat to see him part of another tournament run for their squad.

Here's to Ojeleye thriving wherever life takes him in the next few days and weeks.

slower
12-14-2014, 05:16 PM
Best wishes to him, but it's not surprising. He always seemed to have a Jamal Boykin-esque trajectory to his future, IMO.

Dukehky
12-14-2014, 05:19 PM
I always hate seeing the word transferring in a thread title. I sincerely hope this is the only one of this season. One significant issue that is concerning about this is the impact on practices - do we now only have 9 scholarship players to practice, including Obi?

Bring in Myles Jones!!!!!

Duvall
12-14-2014, 05:21 PM
Good for the kid, and likely good for Duke. Ojeleye wants playing time, likely will never get it at Duke, Duke gets an open scholarship. Win-win for everyone involved.

Well, except for Duke, who almost certainly will not need the open scholarship.

mr. synellinden
12-14-2014, 05:24 PM
We have 10, including Obi.

Right. Wow, I don't know how I did this, but I completely left out Matt Jones as I was counting players. But it does place a huge premium on health and keeping the roster intact the rest of the season. Perhaps it is a sign of another incoming player next year, but I hope this doesn't have a huge impact on this season.

Good luck to Semi.

Bluegrassdevil1
12-14-2014, 05:40 PM
I find the concern about injuries to be odd. Any team that loses a player to injury will suffer, struggle, or need to readjust. UK is loaded with players, yet losing Poythress is a cause of concern for them.

With or without Ojeleye, an injury would harm Duke, so worrying about a potential injury scenario is just as futile as assuming that the long layoff caused the Duke roster to morph into a modern version of the Dream Team.

Something could happen. Something could not happen. But retaining a kid that wants to try something else is not going to solve anything of significance.

moonpie23
12-14-2014, 05:45 PM
hope he lands in a great spot......best of luck to you, semi....

jimsumner
12-14-2014, 05:46 PM
Correct, he will be eligible at the start of 2015.

Semi is really smart. Which was, I think a big reason why he chose Duke. If I had to see him land somewhere, I hope that it is Stanford, that way he will be able to continue his academically impressive college career. Would not be shocked by Wichita State though.

Also Re: Ingram, I think that this has much more to do with our pursuit of Caleb Swanigan. From what it looks like, we have put the full court press on that kid either because Semi informed the coaches that he thought we was transferring or was really turned off by being recruited over pretty late in the game. With regard to Ingram, I honestly think that he will commit to Duke very soon after Justise declares for the NBA draft. At least I hope so. He is very skilled, but not particularly strong. We haven't had a guy like him in a long time. I really rangy 3 man.

I've never understood the "recruited-over" narrative. Did Duke recruit over Sulaimon by recruiting Matt Jones? Did Duke recruit over Jones by recruiting Grayson Allen? Did Duke recruit over Allen by recruiting Kennard? Plumlee and Obi? Jefferson and Jeter?

You see where I'm heading. You're always recruiting players whose physical attributes and/or skill set overlap with players already in the program. Goes with the turf.

And Ojeleye and Swanigan don't even overlap much. Ojeleye is a 3/4, while Duke is recruiting Swanigan as a 5. Much more overlap with Ingram and Duke has been recruiting him for awhile.

I confess I'm a bit surprised by this. Ojeleye is a superb student and has improved as a player. I'm not sure he ever would have started at Duke but I do think he would have become a rotation player, similar to a Lee Melchionni or a David McClure, both of whom did occasionally start.

I do hope he ends up at an academic heavyweight, Stanford or Vanderbilt or Northwestern.

subzero02
12-14-2014, 05:55 PM
Good luck to Semi. Earlier this week I was thinking how great it was that Matt stuck it out after a tough freshman year. I was hoping his progression would be be an inspiration to Semi and to a lesser extent, Grayson.

sagegrouse
12-14-2014, 05:59 PM
I do hope he ends up at an academic heavyweight, Stanford or Vanderbilt or Northwestern.

Two points:

1. Why not Hah-vahd?

2. My opinion on Semi's departure and lack of playing time: mm-mmmm-mm. I've said too much on the subject.

mr. synellinden
12-14-2014, 06:07 PM
I find the concern about injuries to be odd. Any team that loses a player to injury will suffer, struggle, or need to readjust. UK is loaded with players, yet losing Poythress is a cause of concern for them.

With or without Ojeleye, an injury would harm Duke, so worrying about a potential injury scenario is just as futile as assuming that the long layoff caused the Duke roster to morph into a modern version of the Dream Team.

Something could happen. Something could not happen. But retaining a kid that wants to try something else is not going to solve anything of significance.

The specific concern in this instance is that we are down to 10 scholarship players. And for purposes of practicing, having less than 10 means you don't have two full teams for scrimmages. There is a lot that is learned and gained in practices - and I'm sure the coaches would prefer to have recruited players taking the bulk of time in scrimmages. I am scared that there is no margin for error in terms the current number of scholarship players. Things do happen. Transfers, injuries, academic issues. Our practices will suffer if another one happens.

Clay Feet POF
12-14-2014, 06:26 PM
Don't think Murphy is eligible yet, so that's not much of a comparison.

Also Mike B started today!

Furniture
12-14-2014, 06:59 PM
That is just plain sad!

Saratoga2
12-14-2014, 07:24 PM
I confess I'm a bit surprised by this. Ojeleye is a superb student and has improved as a player. I'm not sure he ever would have started at Duke but I do think he would have become a rotation player, similar to a Lee Melchionni or a David McClure, both of whom did occasionally start.



Semi is reportedly a superb athlete and in addition is close to 6'8" and is about 230#. I also believe he was improving and might well be needed by the team going forward. Since he is also great academically, I would have hoped he would hang around through this season as there will be quite a few games where he could have gotten significant playing time. Such is not the case, and he will seek his PT at another institution.

I hope that one of our bigs doesn't go down to injury this year. It will leave us without backup and may lower the chances of a deep run in the tournament.

cspan37421
12-14-2014, 07:31 PM
Wherever he lands, the fans there are in for a Semi-charmed kind of life.

(ducks)

azzefkram
12-14-2014, 07:34 PM
Best of Luck Semi. Sorry it didn't work out.

jipops
12-14-2014, 07:39 PM
Semi is reportedly a superb athlete and in addition is close to 6'8" and is about 230#. I also believe he was improving and might well be needed by the team going forward. Since he is also great academically, I would have hoped he would hang around through this season as there will be quite a few games where he could have gotten significant playing time. Such is not the case, and he will seek his PT at another institution.

I hope that one of our bigs doesn't go down to injury this year. It will leave us without backup and may lower the chances of a deep run in the tournament.

I think this is the only negative effect his transfer could have. But Semi wasn't going to be someone to just wait around for someone to get hurt to get in some meaningful minutes in competitive games. I hate that he is leaving but it makes total sense. K is clearly going with the 8-man rotation, which also makes sense, and with next year's roster there is only an outside chance of him getting more minutes than he had gotten up til now. With his size his time was going to be spent as a front court player and it was extremely unlikely he would be playing ahead of a front court rotation of Amile, Jeter, Obi, and Plumlee. And he certainly wasn't going to compete with next year's wings in M. Jones and Sheed. In the outside, and I mean extremely remote, chance that Winslow is around... well nevermind.

Semi was obviously a physical specimen but I do think his biggest struggle was on defense. I think if he showed more in that regard and on the boards he would have gotten more time in the Mich St game and some time in Wisconsin. He just wasn't earning it.

I hope he lands in a place where he can use his physical gifts to his advantage. He obviously feels he has enough to talent to have a productive career at the div1 level. I hope he gets there and I wish him the best.

CDu
12-14-2014, 07:39 PM
I've never understood the "recruited-over" narrative. Did Duke recruit over Sulaimon by recruiting Matt Jones? Did Duke recruit over Jones by recruiting Grayson Allen? Did Duke recruit over Allen by recruiting Kennard? Plumlee and Obi? Jefferson and Jeter?

You see where I'm heading. You're always recruiting players whose physical attributes and/or skill set overlap with players already in the program. Goes with the turf.

And Ojeleye and Swanigan don't even overlap much. Ojeleye is a 3/4, while Duke is recruiting Swanigan as a 5. Much more overlap with Ingram and Duke has been recruiting him for awhile.

I confess I'm a bit surprised by this. Ojeleye is a superb student and has improved as a player. I'm not sure he ever would have started at Duke but I do think he would have become a rotation player, similar to a Lee Melchionni or a David McClure, both of whom did occasionally start.

I do hope he ends up at an academic heavyweight, Stanford or Vanderbilt or Northwestern.

I am not sure why you would be surprised. Ojeleye was a top-40 recruit who played less than 100 minutes last year and was likely to play less than 150 this year. I am not saying we should expect every recruit in the 30-50 range to transfer when they don't play, but after seeing King, Murphy, and Gbinije transfer in the last 10 years due to PT, it should never be a surprise. Not everyone wants to spend their college years as a seldom-used sub.

Nothing against Semi or those other guys. They have every right to want to play, and if they feel that opportunity won't come, there is nothing wrong with the transfer. Like the one-and-done, folks need to realize that we are going to have transfers. That is just the nature of the beast.

UrinalCake
12-14-2014, 07:57 PM
Probably the least surprising transfer we've had. The writing has been on the wall that he's just not going to be able to earn any playing time. Despite his tremendous physique, he's still sort of a tweener - his game lends itself to playing a stretch-4, but he's not big enough to defend that position. Other than shooting threes he hasn't really developed much of an offensive game. A lot like Murphy actually. I loved the kid, he was a high-character guy and a great student and represented Duke well.

Is he going to be able to take a redshirt for this year and be eligible in the fall of 2015? Or will he be a mid-year transfer and therefore lose a year of eligibility?

Bluedog
12-14-2014, 07:57 PM
I am not sure why you would be surprised. Ojeleye was a top-40 recruit who played less than 100 minutes last year and was likely to play less than 150 this year. I am not saying we should expect every recruit in the 30-50 range to transfer when they don't play, but after seeing King, Murphy, and Gbinije transfer in the last 10 years due to PT, it should never be a surprise. Not everyone wants to spend their college years as a seldom-used sub.


It has been said before, but if you are a recruit in the RSCI 30-50 range, Duke is an awfully tough place to find playing time. It is certainly not surprising news, as Ojeleye would have been fighting an uphill battle for PT even into his senior year. Best wishes to him.

Agreed, which is pretty cruel given that guys in this range would be considered THE prized recruit at 95% of other DI schools in the country. But that's the nature of the Duke beast and certainly we make no promises or try to hide that fact -- guys need to realize that nothing is guaranteed coming in, but I certainly do wish it would have worked out.

Semi also perhaps wasn't a "typical" 30-50 recruit being named (http://collegebasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/05/19/duke-signee-semi-ojeleye-named-parade-magazine-player-of-the-year/)Parade Magazine player of the year. Although perhaps that was also a result of his academic achievement (4.0 GPA) in addition to his huge numerous against weaker competition (38 ppg, set state records for number of points in a career and a year). He beat out Wiggins, Jabari, Aaron Gordon, and everybody else for the honor. Best of luck to Semi!

Duvall
12-14-2014, 07:59 PM
Is he going to be able to take a redshirt for this year and be eligible in the fall of 2015? Or will he be a mid-year transfer and therefore lose a year of eligibility?

He can't redshirt without an injury after playing this year. He will transfer at the semester breaek and be eligible for second semester next year, in January 2016.

jimsumner
12-14-2014, 08:23 PM
I am not sure why you would be surprised. Ojeleye was a top-40 recruit who played less than 100 minutes last year and was likely to play less than 150 this year. I am not saying we should expect every recruit in the 30-50 range to transfer when they don't play, but after seeing King, Murphy, and Gbinije transfer in the last 10 years due to PT, it should never be a surprise. Not everyone wants to spend their college years as a seldom-used sub.

Nothing against Semi or those other guys. They have every right to want to play, and if they feel that opportunity won't come, there is nothing wrong with the transfer. Like the one-and-done, folks need to realize that we are going to have transfers. That is just the nature of the beast.

The reason I'm surprised is that Ojeleye is sufficiently gifted academically that he likely could have been accepted to Duke had he never seen a basketball in his life and academics supposedly at the very least equaled basketball in his decision to come to Duke.


As we've already discussed, there are academically-elite institutions that play top-level college basketball at a somewhat lower level than Duke and might benefit from his presence.

Duke95
12-14-2014, 08:44 PM
Two points:

1. Why not Hah-vahd?

2. My opinion on Semi's departure and lack of playing time: mm-mmmm-mm. I've said too much on the subject.

This. +100.

Bluedog
12-14-2014, 08:47 PM
The reason I'm surprised is that Ojeleye is sufficiently gifted academically that he likely could have been accepted to Duke had he never seen a basketball in his life and academics supposedly at the very least equaled basketball in his decision to come to Duke.


As we've already discussed, there are academically-elite institutions that play top-level college basketball at a somewhat lower level than Duke and might benefit from his presence.

I'm not one to challenge Jim Sumner typically, but saying he likely would have been accepted to Duke based on academics alone is completely unknown. All we really know is he had a 4.0 GPA in high school. Duke rejects about 50% of valedictorians. I'd say he was likely qualified to be accepted based on academics alone (although no idea about his test scores or curriculum rigor, not should we), but that doesn't guarantee admission as about 80% of the applicant pool is considered qualified. Not trying to come off as nitpicky or pretentious, but just want to be accurate. :cool: With his life story and academic and volunteering profile, obviously he's an impressive guy (notwithstanding his basketball ability).

For most of these 5-star basketball recruits who are also strong students, though, typically academics are a distant second in criteria to basketball. (See: Brandon Knight, also a 4.0 student who chose UK). Although there are exceptions like Zoubek (considered Princeton, Stanford, and Duke). We see Duke basketball players transfer to all sorts of schools after Duke.

In any event, wish Semi the best. Definitely is a high character guy and has tremendous potential, I think. Hope he succeeds wherever he ends up.

lotusland
12-14-2014, 08:49 PM
Probably the least surprising transfer we've had. The writing has been on the wall that he's just not going to be able to earn any playing time. Despite his tremendous physique, he's still sort of a tweener - his game lends itself to playing a stretch-4, but he's not big enough to defend that position. Other than shooting threes he hasn't really developed much of an offensive game. A lot like Murphy actually. I loved the kid, he was a high-character guy and a great student and represented Duke well.

Is he going to be able to take a redshirt for this year and be eligible in the fall of 2015? Or will he be a mid-year transfer and therefore lose a year of eligibility?

I agree with the gist of this post with the minor exception that a 6'8 athlete like Semi is plenty tall enough to guard a stretch 4 or standard 4 like Jefferson for that matter. Isn't Jefferson 6'8 too?

gumbomoop
12-14-2014, 08:50 PM
I'd have thought Semi's minutes next year would depend principally on 2 things: whether Tyus leaves for the NBA, and whether Brandon Ingram comes to Duke.

If it's bad news re Tyus and Brandon -- i.e., neither is at Duke for 2015-16 -- then surely Semi would have played meaningful minutes, as Duke's only logical SF. Absent both Tyus and Brandon, Duke's 2015-16 perimeter [PG and wings] will consist of but 4 players: Rasheed, Matt, Grayson, Luke. Should these 4 players constitute our 3-position perimeter in 2015-16, we'll have serious talent, but no "classic-sized athletic" wing SF. I'd have thought Semi could fit right in for substantial [~20] mpg.

Should Tyus return, I could understand that Semi would still be fighting [Grayson and Luke?] for minutes. But his size would likely have allowed him to play good minutes against some opponents.

Sure hope either Tyus or Brandon is at Duke next season. Preferably both, as it's not at all certain that Duke will have 10 scholarship players in 2015-16.

Good luck to Semi.

Bluedog
12-14-2014, 08:55 PM
I like this comment from a Wichita State message board:
"A class comment by Duke's Coach K compared to the BS comment by BS [Bill Self when talking about Conner Frankamp]" :D

Bluegrassdevil1
12-14-2014, 09:39 PM
I like this comment from a Wichita State message board:
"A class comment by Duke's Coach K compared to the BS comment by BS [Bill Self when talking about Conner Frankamp]" :D

This comment is not essential to the Ojeleye discussion, but your mentioning of the WSU board reminded me of how thankful I am for the graphics, presentation, and readability of the E.K. Board. Looking at the contrast of colors on the WSU forum, reminded me of places like I.C., Cat's Pause, et al., where I lose interest in reading individual's thoughts due to the constant struggle of being able to read the flipping pages.

Thank you controllers of the E.K. board for helping me delay Retinopathy.

Dukehky
12-14-2014, 09:47 PM
This comment is not essential to the Ojeleye discussion, but your mentioning of the WSU board reminded me of how thankful I am for the graphics, presentation, and readability of the E.K. Board. Looking at the contrast of colors on the WSU forum, reminded me of places like I.C., Cat's Pause, et al., where I lose interest in reading individual's thoughts due to the constant struggle of being able to read the flipping pages.

Thank you controllers of the E.K. board for helping me delay Retinopathy.

This comment wasn't essential to the Ojeleye discussion either...

But yeah!!! DBR Rocks!

lotusland
12-14-2014, 09:50 PM
I like this comment from a Wichita State message board:
"A class comment by Duke's Coach K compared to the BS comment by BS [Bill Self when talking about Conner Frankamp]" :D
I wonder what comment by Self the poster is referring to? I did a quick google search and found a comment from self that perhaps chemistry would improve after frankamp's transfer but in context it seemed like he just meant that positions would be less crowded and players would have more defined roles and expectations. He probably could have phrased it better but I don't think he intended it as a knock as much as just trying to draw a positive from disappointment. He was clearly surprised and thought frankamp could play an important if limited role for Ku this year.

Atldukie79
12-14-2014, 09:51 PM
Unless there is further attrition, transfer, injury or other, we will have 10 scholarship players for practice. Obi cannot play in games, but he can surely practice.

CDu
12-14-2014, 09:55 PM
Unless there is further attrition, transfer, injury or other, we will have 10 scholarship players for practice. Obi cannot play in games, but he can surely practice.

The real concern is that an injury to Jefferson or Winslow makes us suddenly REALLY small.

Bluedog
12-14-2014, 10:04 PM
The real concern is that an injury to Jefferson or Winslow makes us suddenly REALLY small.

That's a concern, but I think that was a concern even with Semi. In a big time game/crunch time, Coach K has already shown that he'd rather go small with the players that he has more confidence in. Winslow at the 4 with Sulaimon/Matt Jones at the 3 has already occurred on several occasions rather than inserting Semi.

Trey21
12-14-2014, 10:19 PM
A bummer for sure. I'm sure he'll have a wonderful career elsewhere but I was hoping that he'd have a great career at Duke. He's a physical beast and is developing a solid 3pt shot. If he continues to develop over the next 2-3 years I honestly think he'll have a shot at playing professionally somewhere. I was really excited about him when he committed, but I knew he was gonna be a longterm project. With the quality recruiting that Duke does it is understandable that he wants to find a better fit somewhere else. I think he'll do great things in the near future. Best of luck to him.

I still follow guys like Gbinje (who got his first career start recently), wish the transfers nothing but the best.

Edouble
12-14-2014, 10:28 PM
The real concern is that an injury to Jefferson or Winslow makes us suddenly REALLY small.

Gotta agree with Bluedog. Semi or no Semi, following an injury to Amile or Justise, the majority of those minutes are going to Matt and Sheed.

hurleyfor3
12-14-2014, 10:36 PM
The Stamford Cardinals? Where John E. Dawkins coaches?

They're well-connected to them Greenwich hedge funds.

Edouble
12-14-2014, 10:46 PM
A bummer for sure. I'm sure he'll have a wonderful career elsewhere but I was hoping that he'd have a great career at Duke. He's a physical beast and is developing a solid 3pt shot. If he continues to develop over the next 2-3 years I honestly think he'll have a shot at playing professionally somewhere. I was really excited about him when he committed, but I knew he was gonna be a longterm project. With the quality recruiting that Duke does it is understandable that he wants to find a better fit somewhere else. I think he'll do great things in the near future. Best of luck to him.

I still follow guys like Gbinje (who got his first career start recently), wish the transfers nothing but the best.

At every level, more talented players can beat bigger players, and honestly, 6'8" 230lbs is not physically anomalous. Semi is not DeJuan Blair.

I know he has big biceps, but honestly, in terms of functional strength, biceps are fairly useless. The core muscles are what count. Just ask Dennis Rodman, who could D up Shaq and Zo without arms of note.

I don't know if Semi has intimidating deadlift and squat numbers or not, but the guy was pretty much bombing threes whenever he got in the game this year. Trajan actually had really muscular arms too, but he was a far more talented three point shooter. Again, biceps are useful in bodybuilding.

I don't mean to pick on Trey21. This post just sort of summarizes what I saw a lot of around here: people that were so impressed by Semi's physical size. I struggle to recall a time when his size had any impact at all in a play: a time when he muscled up for a rebound, set a brutally hard screen, intimidated an opposing player. If he had strength as well as size, it was rarely used. Anyone that has spent time in a weight room can tell you that size and strength are not synonymous.

I wish him the best, but despite his size, he came to the game late and was a serious project. I'm quite sure we promised him nothing besides making him the best player he could be. It is disappointing that he doesn't want to stick it out with the best in the business.

tbyers11
12-14-2014, 11:03 PM
At every level, more talented players can beat bigger players, and honestly, 6'8" 230lbs is not physically anomalous. Semi is not DeJuan Blair.

I know he has big biceps, but honestly, in terms of functional strength, biceps are fairly useless. The core muscles are what count. Just ask Dennis Rodman, who could D up Shaq and Zo without arms of note.

I don't know if Semi has intimidating deadlift and squat numbers or not, but the guy was pretty much bombing threes whenever he got in the game this year. Trajan actually had really muscular arms too, but he was a far more talented three point shooter. Again, biceps are useful in bodybuilding.


4583

I don't know any exact numbers but I think Semi was an overall physical beast :)

However, I do agree with your larger point that even with his physical gifts Semi had been more perimeter- than interior-oriented.

Best of luck to Semi wherever he ends up.

MCFinARL
12-14-2014, 11:16 PM
I wish him the best, but despite his size, he came to the game late and was a serious project. I'm quite sure we promised him nothing besides making him the best player he could be. It is disappointing that he doesn't want to stick it out with the best in the business.

Disappointing to us, sure. I liked Semi Ojeleye, who seemed like a smart kid and a very high character one. But really, if he wants to play somewhere where he can get consistent minutes sooner rather than later, can you blame him? What if the best player he could be turns out not to be NBA material? Wouldn't it be nice, then, to actually plan in college instead of learning how to be better while watching others play?

As someone pointed out upthread, there are many schools where Semi could get a very high quality education while also actually playing significant minutes on a very solid (if not Duke level) basketball team. I won't be surprised at all if Semi ends up at such a school--and good luck to him.

Newton_14
12-14-2014, 11:35 PM
The state of College Hoops saddens me for many reasons, this being one of them. And I will quickly state I am a huge fan of Semi, I am not angry or upset with him at all for this decision, but I do feel it shows the level of impatience all players, their parents, their handlers (for those that have them), and the friends and family members that are in their ears often, currently have. One of my favorite Duke players of all time is actually Marty Clark. Marty had talent, but he was just one of those guys that was not ready as a Freshman or Sophomore, and he needed time to develop both his body and his game. He got very little court time his Freshman season, just a little bit more his Sophomore season, quite a bit more his Junior season and then finally as a Senior, he became a full time rotation player no matter the opponent, or importance of the game, on a team that made it to the National Title game and came within a finger nail of winning Duke's 3rd title in 4 years. Semi is a similar player in terms of career trajectory, and it saddens me I won't get to see him develop as a Blue Devil in a similar manner as Marty.

I get that he wants to play more minutes right now. All kids do. But like Jamaal Boykin, Olek, Silent G, and Murphy, there is just no Top 5 school out there that would have had those kids in the regular rotation as Freshman and Sophomores. Now at unc-cheat, guys like them and Semi would have probably gotten a limited amount of minutes in every single game prior to the start of the ACC conference games, no matter the score or situation because that is just how ol cheatin roy, like El Deano before him chose to do it. They do/did not believe in DNP-CD for any kid prior to the conference season, and in most years an games, it did not often bite them.

However, K, rightly or wrongly does not play it that way. In the cupcake games prior to the ACC, he plays all of the scholly guys and plays the end of the bench scholly guys, a decent amount of minutes in all those games. However, in the tough pre-ACC games, those that are not going to be in the 7.5 - 8 man rotation, the 9th man and beyond is just not going to see the floor at all in those games. Sometimes that frustrates me a little, but K is the greatest coach of all time so obviously his methodology works. For me personally, I have to believe if he plays Semi and Grayson 3 to 5 minutes in the first half of the Wisconsin game, and maybe 2-3 minutes in the 2nd half, we still win that game, and they would have gotten their feet wet in the hostile environment of the Number 2 team in the country. Maybe I am wrong there, but part of me believes it would have been a good idea to do that for the development of those kids. That said, I do fall firmly in the camp that you both develop and earn your stripes for the most part in practice. The value of that experience cannot be denied. The question is, had K done that in the Wisconsin and Stanford games, does Semi decide to stick around? We will never know.

So again I am not mad with Semi nor upset with him. I hope he goes to a great school and really hope his next coach is Dawkins, Collins, or Wojo. I will pull hard for him no matter where he goes. I will just very much miss watching him grow and develop as a Blue Devil and make an impact as a rotation player in his Junior and Senior years at Duke.

Like I said earlier, it is just a sign of the times and the current culture that exists where everybody wants it now. Waiting is just no longer an option.

Kedsy
12-14-2014, 11:50 PM
I agree with the gist of this post with the minor exception that a 6'8 athlete like Semi is plenty tall enough to guard a stretch 4 or standard 4 like Jefferson for that matter. Isn't Jefferson 6'8 too?

For what it's worth, Semi is listed on the official roster at 6'7" and Amile is listed at 6'9". I don't think they're the same height.

Zeb
12-15-2014, 12:02 AM
One of my favorite Duke players of all time is actually Marty Clark. Marty had talent, but he was just one of those guys that was not ready as a Freshman or Sophomore, and he needed time to develop both his body and his game. He got very little court time his Freshman season, just a little bit more his Sophomore season, quite a bit more his Junior season and then finally as a Senior, he became a full time rotation player no matter the opponent, or importance of the game, on a team that made it to the National Title game and came within a finger nail of winning Duke's 3rd title in 4 years. Semi is a similar player in terms of career trajectory, and it saddens me I won't get to see him develop as a Blue Devil in a similar manner as Marty.

Once heard Marty tell this: In Marty's senior year, Coach K told him he wished he had redshirted Marty his freshman season. Marty would have made a world of difference for that 1994-5 team, and it might have made a difference for Marty's NBA chances. Hindsight is 20-20, but its an interesting glimpse that even Coach K doesn't get everything right.

I always am sad to see Duke players transfer, and I am always surprised by how little they usually contribute at different programs even with another year of practice.

Kedsy
12-15-2014, 12:06 AM
Absent both Tyus and Brandon, Duke's 2015-16 perimeter [PG and wings] will consist of but 4 players: Rasheed, Matt, Grayson, Luke. Should these 4 players constitute our 3-position perimeter in 2015-16, we'll have serious talent, but no "classic-sized athletic" wing SF. I'd have thought Semi could fit right in for substantial [~20] mpg.

I suppose you never know, but it seems likely to me that in the scenario you outline, Semi would have been the 5th perimeter option (assuming he could defend adequately on the perimeter). Which probably would have been in the rotation, but the 5th perimeter guy at Duke generally doesn't get anywhere close to 20 mpg. A more realistic estimate would be 10 to 12 mpg. And that would have been the "best case" scenario for Semi, meaning in order for him to get that 5th perimeter spot, it would mean we'd have none of Justise, Tyus, and Brandon on the roster. I guess he might have had a chance to beat out Grayson or Luke for the 4th perimeter spot (which would have given him a decent chance of getting 20 mpg), but maybe he didn't think that possibility was likely enough to hang around.

gurufrisbee
12-15-2014, 12:24 AM
I hope the best for him (unless he goes somewhere like NC, Kentucky, or UConn). But I always have my first response to a guy transferring away from Duke for playing time is to think "Then EARN it!"

Trey21
12-15-2014, 12:27 AM
At every level, more talented players can beat bigger players, and honestly, 6'8" 230lbs is not physically anomalous. Semi is not DeJuan Blair.

I know he has big biceps, but honestly, in terms of functional strength, biceps are fairly useless. The core muscles are what count. Just ask Dennis Rodman, who could D up Shaq and Zo without arms of note.

I don't know if Semi has intimidating deadlift and squat numbers or not, but the guy was pretty much bombing threes whenever he got in the game this year. Trajan actually had really muscular arms too, but he was a far more talented three point shooter. Again, biceps are useful in bodybuilding.

I don't mean to pick on Trey21. This post just sort of summarizes what I saw a lot of around here: people that were so impressed by Semi's physical size. I struggle to recall a time when his size had any impact at all in a play: a time when he muscled up for a rebound, set a brutally hard screen, intimidated an opposing player. If he had strength as well as size, it was rarely used. Anyone that has spent time in a weight room can tell you that size and strength are not synonymous.

I wish him the best, but despite his size, he came to the game late and was a serious project. I'm quite sure we promised him nothing besides making him the best player he could be. It is disappointing that he doesn't want to stick it out with the best in the business.

I totally agree with your assessment that big muscles doesn't equal strength, but just look at his Sports Center dunk that he did in practice last year. Not a whole lot of people have that kind of explosiveness.

Yeah, he played smaller than I hoped. Jacking up threes and not bumping for rebounds, but the guy only played 143 minutes at Duke. As far as I'm concerned there is still a lot of untapped potential. Granted, that potential may not be realized but he has a lot of tools going for him. I hope as his career moves forward that he gets a chance to utilize and polish his tools/skills properly (not saying that Duke didn't).

Clay Feet POF
12-15-2014, 12:35 AM
I hope the best for him (unless he goes somewhere like NC, Kentucky, or UConn). But I always have my first response to a guy transferring away from Duke for playing time is to think "Then EARN it!"


If you can't Earn it here, then it's time to see if you can earn it somewhere else. Looks like Semi made the right move for him.

Indoor66
12-15-2014, 08:08 AM
If you can't Earn it here, then it's time to see if you can earn it somewhere else. Looks like Semi made the right move for him.

Bingo! We all get one shot at life. I hail Semi and wish him the best. I am sure this decision was made after discussions with the Coaches. I hope he finds what is right for him - both on and off the court.

budwom
12-15-2014, 08:46 AM
Least surprising transfer I can remember. Did not expect to see him after the semester break, but I sure wish him well.

In a sense he was a guard trapped in a big man's body.

Skitzle
12-15-2014, 08:53 AM
Bingo! We all get one shot at life. I hail Semi and wish him the best. I am sure this decision was made after discussions with the Coaches. I hope he finds what is right for him - both on and off the court.

This makes me disappointed.

First of all and most importantly. I'm glad he figured out what is important to him and hope he has opportunities for playing time wherever he lands next. Would love to see him go to a Ex-Duke Assistant Program (Harvard, Stanford, Marquette, Northwestern).

That said some other thoughts:

1. I'm sad because I was excited to see what he could turn into as a player in the Duke system. His High School numbers (even though it was a less competitive league) were eye popping. Pts, Stls, Blks, Boards. Really a fantastic all around player
2. I wish he would have stuck it out. I think he has more to learn against top-level competition, of course he knows what is best for him this is just the fan in me that gets excited for player development.
3. He was always going to be behind on the depth chart, not sure why he chose Duke if playing time was THAT important. Did he think he was better than he is? Did he not realize the depth chart factor?
4. I just hate to see kids transfer, especially because of playing time. I do NOT blame the coaching staff, just wish Semi (and Murphy and Gbijine). Would have stuck around to see what they could do. Of course... they all could have become like Pocious and that would have been disappointing for them.

One last question (this is what really makes me think). Does Coach K "assist" the transfer process:
The subtle assist:
Semi comes and says I'm thinking about transferring coach can say 2 things.
1. "NO DONT WE LOVE YOU"
2. "That's unfortunate I'm happy to write your rec, what about Marquette?"

The less subtle assist
"Semi, you're a good player, but I never see you being more than a role player here. You may be best off going somewhere else to get playing time"

Anyway, I'm disappointed. Not because I think Duke will be worse off, not because I LOVE LOVE LOVE Ojelye and think he'll be an All-ACC talent, but mostly because I was excited to watch him develop into a quality role-player. Transfers are disappointing, but no longer earth shattering. Does anyone else share this feeling?

DevilFalcon
12-15-2014, 09:32 AM
Gbinije and now Ojeleye. Perhaps something to do with the last syllable pronunciation?

CDu
12-15-2014, 09:39 AM
3. He was always going to be behind on the depth chart, not sure why he chose Duke if playing time was THAT important. Did he think he was better than he is? Did he not realize the depth chart factor?
4. I just hate to see kids transfer, especially because of playing time. I do NOT blame the coaching staff, just wish Semi (and Murphy and Gbijine). Would have stuck around to see what they could do. Of course... they all could have become like Pocious and that would have been disappointing for them.

With regard to #3, I am sure that nearly every player overvalues their own ability. It's hard to know where you stand until you get there. Also, even if he knew he would play less at Duke, he probably didn't realize (a) how much less and (b) how much playing so much less would frustrate him. All of these guys were stars in high school (well, possibly except for Plumlee - though even he was probably the best player on his team) and played as many minutes as they could handle. So they probably had no idea what it would be like to sit the bench so much.

I'm sure Ojeleye didn't come to Duke thinking he'd have played less than 200 minutes in his team's first 40 or so games. And I'm sure he looked at the depth chart and saw Jefferson and Jeter ahead of him at PF and Matt Jones (and possibly Kennard, possibly someone else) ahead of him at SF next year. That means he probably realized he was in line for another season of very limited minutes.

Could Ojeleye have stuck it out? Sure, and maybe he would have been able to claw his way to a regular reserve role by his senior year. But maybe he realized that this might be his last opportunity to play major organized basketball and wanted to get as much playing time as possible in those last few years.


One last question (this is what really makes me think). Does Coach K "assist" the transfer process:
The subtle assist:
Semi comes and says I'm thinking about transferring coach can say 2 things.
1. "NO DONT WE LOVE YOU"
2. "That's unfortunate I'm happy to write your rec, what about Marquette?"

The less subtle assist
"Semi, you're a good player, but I never see you being more than a role player here. You may be best off going somewhere else to get playing time"

I would be shocked if any coach said #1. I suspect the more likely scenario would be one of two things:

1. the coach reiterates how much the staff loves the kid, and how they see a future for him not too far off (i.e., continue to sell sell sell)
2. the coach reiterates how much the staff loves the kid, but acknowledges that playing time will probably remain limited. that ultimately the decision is up to him and that the staff will support whatever decision the kid makes as best for him.

flyingdutchdevil
12-15-2014, 09:42 AM
Gbinije and now Ojeleye. Perhaps something to do with the last syllable pronunciation?

Duke's recent track record with players of Nigerian decent isn't looking good.

Yeah, gotta agree with most posters; this isn't a surprising transfer at all.

Coach K's 8-man rotation is just that: 8 men. And Semi was clearly the 9th or 10th man.

Wish him the best. Hope he stays within the Duke Assistant Coaching system.

Duke95
12-15-2014, 09:52 AM
Duke's recent track record with players of Nigerian decent isn't looking good.

Yeah, gotta agree with most posters; this isn't a surprising transfer at all.

Coach K's 8-man rotation is just that: 8 men. And Semi was clearly the 9th or 10th man.

Wish him the best. Hope he stays within the Duke Assistant Coaching system.

I would love to see Semi go to Stanford, Harvard, Northwestern, or Marquette.

johnb
12-15-2014, 10:02 AM
It might be nice for us (and for him), if Semi could have accepted his role as did Taymon Domzalski years ago. Tayman was similarly lauded out of high school but saw his playing time crimped by the awesome talent that was recruited behind him (Brand, et al). http://www.dukechronicle.com/articles/1999/03/04/its-been-most-fun-season-ive-had-here#.VI70W4cmIVQ.

I like the Virginia coach's comment during a season in which Duke was just dominating the ACC (we focus on the last few seconds of the NC loss; but that season was like a several-month-long root beer float, filled with euphoria). Anyway, Gillen asserted that while Domzalski couldn't get off the bench as Duke's 9th man, if he had gone to UVa, they'd be building a monument to him alongside that of Jefferson.

While he isn't much discussed on DBR, Domzalski's legacy may be as the seed from which grew our annual tree of "how come K doesn't lengthen the bench?" Oh, and Taymon went on to Duke's medical school, so life hasn't presumably been a pathetic vacuum after he got upstaged by future NBA all stars.

Nevertheless, it's reasonable for young athletes to recognize that there is something irreplaceable about actually playing in games. It's not whether he'll make the NBA, it's about the reality that he isn't likely to be playing meaningful minutes for at least a year, if ever. I also don't think his transfer is a sign of the times (or a sign of the apocalypse). People have been moving on to greener pastures forever--from a basketball perspective, I'd agree with him: he's likely to have better minutes almost anyplace outside of the places that routinely carry 8 or 10 guys at least as good as he is (and that group is basically Duke, Kentucky, and Kansas).

Re. admissions: a valedictorian from small town Kansas who is also one of the 30 or 40 best at anything will likely get a Duke acceptance (and a Harvard one). Basketball is obvious (and football would be even more obvious if anyone from the top 30 ever seriously considered Duke), but I imagine a similarly impressive journalist, chess player, or essayist would also get a fairly automatic acceptance to every school in the country.

FerryFor50
12-15-2014, 10:24 AM
Could Ojeleye have stuck it out? Sure, and maybe he would have been able to claw his way to a regular reserve role by his senior year. But maybe he realized that this might be his last opportunity to play major organized basketball and wanted to get as much playing time as possible in those last few years.



Totally agree with this. While I am disappointed to see Semi go, if I were in the same situation and knew my college career was limited and the only way I could see myself with a valid chance at a pro career would be with a larger role somewhere else, I would do it. Time is short and these guys have a small window of athletic prime to work with. Gotta make the most of it.

I don't know that Semi would have been much of a factor at Duke unless someone got hurt. He's probably a perfectly fine player, but we only saw a little of his work. As people mentioned before, he was mostly perimeter oriented, despite his physical attributes. He never really used his raw strength or leaping ability in games... it's tough to see a guy with so much going for him in terms of athletic potential hanging out on the 3pt line. Hopefully he goes somewhere and excels, as long as its not a rival school. ;)

Maybe he goes back home. Maybe he goes West. Maybe he follows Silent G and goes to Syracuse.

Henderson
12-15-2014, 10:32 AM
Let's not ignore the possible personal considerations we haven't heard about. I'd be surprised if any such decision is ever exclusively about PT. I would't want to speculate on what those might be (and maybe there are none). But a lot goes through a young man's mind when he's at college a long way from home. Where he transfers might provide some clues.

But back to purely BB reasons....

Given his size, I expected Semi to be a post player with a threatening outside shot. He never developed into that for Duke, apparently because of his inability to lock up a post position, so he played the perimeter. But that seemed out of position to me, and it showed. Without a sufficient post game for K's system, he became the dreaded tweener. I contrast him in that regard with Alex Murphy, who played exactly where you'd expect, but just not quite as well as many had hoped/anticipated. Maybe in a different system Semi will develop into the player his body and skill set seem set up for. I hope so.

I like the guy, and I've never heard a bad thing said about his excellence as a young man, student, or representative of Duke University. So rock on, Semi. Find that thing, whatever or wherever it is.

CrazyNotCrazie
12-15-2014, 11:09 AM
As everyone noted, Semi is clearly a very bright guy. I'm sure he carefully managed his recruitment and did a ton of research, as he had a lot of great options. For better or worse, we have developed a bit of a pattern of recruiting mid-sized players who are slightly lower ranked than typical Duke recruits that end up leaving the program - Olek, Boykin, Murphy, Gbinijie (one could also include Taylor King, but I think the circumstances were a bit different there), and, going back further, Chappell. There have also been some success stories like McClure and Melchionni who improved over their four years and became valuable contributors earning meaningful minutes by their senior years. Nevertheless, I'm guessing Semi was well aware of this history and entered the situation knowing there was a decent likelihood that he would end up like the majority of his predecessors. I'm guessing (or hoping) that Coach K made no promises about playing time. So Semi took an educated gamble and unfortunately it didn't work out. I am hoping for the best for him as he seemed like a great guy and represented the university well during his time there.

UrinalCake
12-15-2014, 11:16 AM
Unless there is further attrition, transfer, injury or other, we will have 10 scholarship players for practice. Obi cannot play in games, but he can surely practice.

I do think that Semi leaving changes up our practice rotation. Coming into the season we had 10 guys (plus Obi) and Coach K even pointed out how nicely balanced it was to basically have two guys at every position. Now, I would assume that Obi will be going up against Amile in practice. I don't have enough insight to know what sort of player rotations K runs in practices, but I would suspect that Semi was probably a great guy to have to play various roles during those practices.

flyingdutchdevil
12-15-2014, 11:44 AM
I do think that Semi leaving changes up our practice rotation. Coming into the season we had 10 guys (plus Obi) and Coach K even pointed out how nicely balanced it was to basically have two guys at every position. Now, I would assume that Obi will be going up against Amile in practice. I don't have enough insight to know what sort of player rotations K runs in practices, but I would suspect that Semi was probably a great guy to have to play various roles during those practices.

I think Obi is a more traditional 4 to practice against than Semi. Semi is a spread 4 who doesn't like playing in the post. Obi is a college 5 who loves the post and will have to play a traditional 4 from the benefit of the team. We will face "Obi" type 4s for sure. But we'll also face Semi-type 4s. I think we lose more versatility in practice, but it also gives Obi a chance to get to know this team better.

I don't see practices getting less competitive, just more bodies in the paint and less on the perimeter. I hope this allows Amile to focus on that short mid-range.

Kedsy
12-15-2014, 11:55 AM
Maybe he follows Silent G and goes to Syracuse.

I believe there's some sort of rule against players transferring within the conference. Whether it's an unwritten rule or a Duke rule or an ACC rule, I have no idea. If true, Semi won't be going to Syracuse -- when Mike G transferred, Syracuse was in the Big East.

FerryFor50
12-15-2014, 12:01 PM
I believe there's some sort of rule against players transferring within the conference. Whether it's an unwritten rule or a Duke rule or an ACC rule, I have no idea. If true, Semi won't be going to Syracuse -- when Mike G transferred, Syracuse was in the Big East.

There isn't a rule against it. It's just not always in the players' best interest.

http://onlineathens.com/sports/college-sports/2014-05-27/transferring-within-sec-acc-could-come-hefty-price-athletes


Those who transfer within conference in the SEC or Atlantic Coast Conference not only must sit out a year, but could lose a year of eligibility. In the ACC, an athlete would have to pay his or her own way and would lose a year even if they have a redshirt year to use.

That said, I think that Syracuse was on its way in to the ACC, so the rules likely did not apply to G.

Henderson
12-15-2014, 12:05 PM
I believe there's some sort of rule against players transferring within the conference. Whether it's an unwritten rule or a Duke rule or an ACC rule, I have no idea. If true, Semi won't be going to Syracuse -- when Mike G transferred, Syracuse was in the Big East.

It's discretionary with the tranferor school. Most impose that condition. Self, in releasing Frankamp, said the release was unconditional. Not sure if he meant it.

The problem with conference rivals is that the athlete has access to scouting reports, game plans, coaching tendencies, and internal thinking that carry through in a way that such info about non-conference opponents does not.

Kedsy
12-15-2014, 12:05 PM
There isn't a rule against it. It's just not always in the players' best interest.

http://onlineathens.com/sports/college-sports/2014-05-27/transferring-within-sec-acc-could-come-hefty-price-athletes

That said, I think that Syracuse was on its way in to the ACC, so the rules likely did not apply to G.

Thanks for pointing out the actual rule. So while it's technically not a rule against it, the penalty seems draconian enough that it might as well be a rule against it.

As far as Mike G is concerned, I remember reading the rule definitely didn't apply to him.

Kedsy
12-15-2014, 12:07 PM
It's discretionary with the tranferor school. Most impose that condition.

So, does Duke have a policy against allowing transfers within the conference (on top of the ACC rule pointed out by FerryFor50)?

Billy Dat
12-15-2014, 12:13 PM
It's got to be very tough to say no to Duke and to K, but with the explosion of cable sports networks and the continued expansion of the existing ones (ESPN, ESPN2, ESPNU, etc.), so many teams are on TV all the time. In addition, there are hundreds of journalists from traditional papers, the top web outlets and upstart bloggers covering every angle of every story. It really surprises me that more kids like Semi, kind of that next tier, the RSCI 30-50 range that CDu referenced don't go the "big fish smaller pond" route and go somewhere they will be a starter from Day 1. There are so many excellent coaches who aren't Mt. Rushmore level coaches, coaches who can send guys to the pros and are at awesome schools academically and athletically. I am always happy that we sign tons of talent and am willing to have nearly yearly transfers if it means that we get the best players, but it seems like the sport is so well covered and professionally scouted that you have a better chance of making a big splash at a non blue blood program.

Duvall
12-15-2014, 12:20 PM
So, does Duke have a policy against allowing transfers within the conference (on top of the ACC rule pointed out by FerryFor50)?

Chris Marconcini's graduate transfer to FSU suggests that there isn't, at least one beyond the coach's discretion.

BD80
12-15-2014, 12:24 PM
Gbinije and now Ojeleye. Perhaps something to do with the last syllable pronunciation?

Nah, three Plumlays disprove that theory


... I suspect the more likely scenario would be one of two things:

1. the coach reiterates how much the staff loves the kid, and how they see a future for him not too far off (i.e., continue to sell sell sell)
2. the coach reiterates how much the staff loves the kid, but acknowledges that playing time will probably remain limited. that ultimately the decision is up to him and that the staff will support whatever decision the kid makes as best for him.

It's not you, its me?

Henderson
12-15-2014, 12:32 PM
So, does Duke have a policy against allowing transfers within the conference (on top of the ACC rule pointed out by FerryFor50)?

I'm not aware of one. Mel was listed as an example, and I have no reason to think anything has changed. It's like, "Don't take your playbook to UVA." Metaphorically.

Dukehky
12-15-2014, 12:39 PM
The state of College Hoops saddens me for many reasons, this being one of them. And I will quickly state I am a huge fan of Semi, I am not angry or upset with him at all for this decision, but I do feel it shows the level of impatience all players, their parents, their handlers (for those that have them), and the friends and family members that are in their ears often, currently have. One of my favorite Duke players of all time is actually Marty Clark. Marty had talent, but he was just one of those guys that was not ready as a Freshman or Sophomore, and he needed time to develop both his body and his game. He got very little court time his Freshman season, just a little bit more his Sophomore season, quite a bit more his Junior season and then finally as a Senior, he became a full time rotation player no matter the opponent, or importance of the game, on a team that made it to the National Title game and came within a finger nail of winning Duke's 3rd title in 4 years. Semi is a similar player in terms of career trajectory, and it saddens me I won't get to see him develop as a Blue Devil in a similar manner as Marty.

I get that he wants to play more minutes right now. All kids do. But like Jamaal Boykin, Olek, Silent G, and Murphy, there is just no Top 5 school out there that would have had those kids in the regular rotation as Freshman and Sophomores. Now at unc-cheat, guys like them and Semi would have probably gotten a limited amount of minutes in every single game prior to the start of the ACC conference games, no matter the score or situation because that is just how ol cheatin roy, like El Deano before him chose to do it. They do/did not believe in DNP-CD for any kid prior to the conference season, and in most years an games, it did not often bite them.

However, K, rightly or wrongly does not play it that way. In the cupcake games prior to the ACC, he plays all of the scholly guys and plays the end of the bench scholly guys, a decent amount of minutes in all those games. However, in the tough pre-ACC games, those that are not going to be in the 7.5 - 8 man rotation, the 9th man and beyond is just not going to see the floor at all in those games. Sometimes that frustrates me a little, but K is the greatest coach of all time so obviously his methodology works. For me personally, I have to believe if he plays Semi and Grayson 3 to 5 minutes in the first half of the Wisconsin game, and maybe 2-3 minutes in the 2nd half, we still win that game, and they would have gotten their feet wet in the hostile environment of the Number 2 team in the country. Maybe I am wrong there, but part of me believes it would have been a good idea to do that for the development of those kids. That said, I do fall firmly in the camp that you both develop and earn your stripes for the most part in practice. The value of that experience cannot be denied. The question is, had K done that in the Wisconsin and Stanford games, does Semi decide to stick around? We will never know.

So again I am not mad with Semi nor upset with him. I hope he goes to a great school and really hope his next coach is Dawkins, Collins, or Wojo. I will pull hard for him no matter where he goes. I will just very much miss watching him grow and develop as a Blue Devil and make an impact as a rotation player in his Junior and Senior years at Duke.

Like I said earlier, it is just a sign of the times and the current culture that exists where everybody wants it now. Waiting is just no longer an option.

I think his is a very antiquated view of college athletics and just kind of comes off as a "kids these days" type of sentiment. If you don't play as a freshman or sophomore at a school like Duke, it is unlikely that you are going to earn playing time later in your college career now a days. Coach K has said repeatedly that freshman are more ready to play now than they were back in the days of Marty Clark. Based on the strength and conditioning of high school and aau programs, on the number of games they play, on the level of competition they play, freshmen, especially freshmen at schools like Duke are physically and mentally more ready for the rigors of the college game. Far more than they used to be. Brandon Ingram/Chase Jeter as a freshman, will likely be better than Semi would be as a junior. Harry Giles, as a freshman, would very likely be better than Semi would be as a senior.

Semi, like Olek, Boykin, and Boetang were all physically gifted players who lacked the basketball skill to really compete for time at Duke, especially early in their careers. They were all projects who were given scholarships based on possibilities. The type of prospect that Duke normally brings in are ready to go NOW. I don't think Semi wanted immediate satisfaction with playing time, I think he was worried, and justifiably so, that he would not obtain future satisfaction.

Recruits ranked 30-40 don't have a great history of earning playing time recently, and if they did, it probably wasn't a great thing.

flyingdutchdevil
12-15-2014, 12:50 PM
I think his is a very antiquated view of college athletics and just kind of comes off as a "kids these days" type of sentiment. If you don't play as a freshman or sophomore at a school like Duke, it is unlikely that you are going to earn playing time later in your college career now a days. Coach K has said repeatedly that freshman are more ready to play now than they were back in the days of Marty Clark. Based on the strength and conditioning of high school and aau programs, on the number of games they play, on the level of competition they play, freshmen, especially freshmen at schools like Duke are physically and mentally more ready for the rigors of the college game. Far more than they used to be. Brandon Ingram/Chase Jeter as a freshman, will likely be better than Semi would be as a junior. Harry Giles, as a freshman, would very likely be better than Semi would be as a senior.

Semi, like Olek, Boykin, and Boetang were all physically gifted players who lacked the basketball skill to really compete for time at Duke, especially early in their careers. They were all projects who were given scholarships based on possibilities. The type of prospect that Duke normally brings in are ready to go NOW. I don't think Semi wanted immediate satisfaction with playing time, I think he was worried, and justifiably so, that he would not obtain future satisfaction.

Recruits ranked 30-40 don't have a great history of earning playing time recently, and if they did, it probably wasn't a great thing.

Sporks. I think this is very accurate.

I really makes you appreciate the Nolan Smith's of the world: players who develop over 4 years to become a star. I'm not expecting that to ever happen again at Duke, especially given the current landscape, but I will be really excited when it does happen.

Kedsy
12-15-2014, 12:54 PM
Recruits ranked 30-40 don't have a great history of earning playing time recently, and if they did, it probably wasn't a great thing.

This is not entirely true. After all, Semi (#32) was ranked two spots ahead of Matt Jones (#34) in the RSCI. Quinn Cook (#31) was ranked three spots behind Michael Gbinije (#28).

Kedsy
12-15-2014, 01:01 PM
I[t] really makes you appreciate the Nolan Smith's of the world: players who develop over 4 years to become a star. I'm not expecting that to ever happen again at Duke, especially given the current landscape, but I will be really excited when it does happen.

Quinn Cook (#31 RSCI)? Ryan Kelly? Mason Plumlee? That's three guys in three years. Why do you expect it never to happen again?

Also, Nolan Smith was ranked #18 in the RSCI. That's a huge difference from Semi's #32. (Others recently ranked #18 in the RSCI: Mason Plumlee; Brandon Ingram).

Clay Feet POF
12-15-2014, 01:09 PM
With Semi transferring, I would expect to see Grayson A. playing a lot more minutes (Tonight against Elon) to reassure him he's not forgotten on the bench.

gumbomoop
12-15-2014, 01:13 PM
I suppose you never know, but it seems likely to me that in the scenario you outline, Semi would have been the 5th perimeter option (assuming he could defend adequately on the perimeter). Which probably would have been in the rotation, but the 5th perimeter guy at Duke generally doesn't get anywhere close to 20 mpg. A more realistic estimate would be 10 to 12 mpg. And that would have been the "best case" scenario for Semi, meaning in order for him to get that 5th perimeter spot, it would mean we'd have none of Justise, Tyus, and Brandon on the roster. I guess he might have had a chance to beat out Grayson or Luke for the 4th perimeter spot (which would have given him a decent chance of getting 20 mpg), but maybe he didn't think that possibility was likely enough to hang around.

You make a good point, which pushes me to rethink, and ultimately to use the what-if-Semi-stayed hypothetical to get to the more important now-that-he's-gone fact, and the implications thereof. But to do so, let me make sure we're discussing exactly the same scenario.

Namely, no Justice, no Tyus, no Brandon [nor any late surprise recruit/transfer], and thus only 4 returning perimeter players for 3 perimeter positions, and none of them as tall/strong as Semi. Now, if despite his size/strength, Semi still wouldn't be a solid defender, then you're likely correct that he'd get closer to 10 than to 20 mpg. My Semi-best-case [~20 mpg] would require him both to improve on D and be a dependable 3-bomber.

For whatever set of reasons, Semi has decided to leave. I'm less concerned about the impact this season than next. I assume Justise will leave. Tyus, 50-50? Brandon Ingram, 50-50? Although I'm comfortable [or as comfortable as possible, having waved goodbye to Jahlil] with our 4 bigs next season [Amile, Marshall, Sean, Chase] for the 2 interior positions, the possibility of having only 4 guys [Rasheed, Matt, Grayson, Luke] for the 3 perimeter spots is a little dicey. We'd sure find out whether Luke can play some PG, and whether Grayson will seize the minutes and dazzle. But having only 8 scholarship players would be unnerving, hardly balanced by the elimination of threads debating whether Krzyzewski would go 9-deep.

I'm hoping one or more of Tyus, Brandon, and [late surprise recruit] Caleb will play for Duke next season. And if by some quirk of fate, it's Caleb and only Caleb, I'll also hope Chase can play some wing.

It's lovely outside, so I concede the sky is not yet falling.

Henderson
12-15-2014, 01:15 PM
With Semi transferring, I would expect to see Grayson A. playing a lot more minutes (Tonight against Elon) to reassure him he's not forgotten on the bench.

You mean like saying to Grayson, "Not you too."? I don't think it works like that. I see Grayson getting minutes tonight, but unrelated to the Semi thing.

Unless you were suggesting that K might want to prepare his team for 'what if', and therefore get some key reserves extra PT. Maybe. Maybe....

flyingdutchdevil
12-15-2014, 01:17 PM
Quinn Cook (#31 RSCI)? Ryan Kelly? Mason Plumlee? That's three guys in three years. Why do you expect it never to happen again?

Also, Nolan Smith was ranked #18 in the RSCI. That's a huge difference from Semi's #32. (Others recently ranked #18 in the RSCI: Mason Plumlee; Brandon Ingram).

Forgot about Mason Plumlee. I bucket Quinn Cook and Ryan Kelly differently.

Mason Plumlee was a bonafide college basketball star during his senior year. Just like Ndotsmitty.

Quinn Cook and Ryan Kelly, while extremely good players who provide immense amount of value to their teams, wouldn't be called "stars" on the national scene.

I don't really expect it to happen as much anymore with our best players being freshmen, year in and year out. Maybe next year will be different, but we only have Sulaimon and Jefferson as seniors. Both very good players, but being a star is, again, a different level. Maybe it will happen, but odds aren't that strong.

Again, this is semantics, but I see "star" as very different from most good to really good players. This year, for instance, we have one "star" but plenty of extremely good players.

flyingdutchdevil
12-15-2014, 01:21 PM
You mean like saying to Grayson, "Not you too."? I don't think it works like that. I see Grayson getting minutes tonight, but unrelated to the Semi thing.

Unless you were suggesting that K might want to prepare his team for 'what if', and therefore get some key reserves extra PT. Maybe. Maybe....

Yeah, can you imagine Coach K giving a player minutes to reassure the player than he can get playing time? I can't.

Grayson will play because we are crushing Elon and Coach K a) doesn't want his rotation players to get injured and b) provide playing time to everyone on the team without the game being in jeopardy.

I also hope Grayson understands that he had an uphill battle to be part of the rotation, especially when 3 players ahead of him play his natural position. I'm sure he is patient and the coaching staff are taking to him daily.

Clay Feet POF
12-15-2014, 01:29 PM
You mean like saying to Grayson, "Not you too."? I don't think it works like that. I see Grayson getting minutes tonight, but unrelated to the Semi thing.

Unless you were suggesting that K might want to prepare his team for 'what if', and therefore get some key reserves extra PT. Maybe. Maybe....

Know way to know is there, the landscape of players transferring is changing. More teams are now holding open spots to see who becomes available via transfers.

johnb
12-15-2014, 01:30 PM
Quinn Cook (#31 RSCI)? Ryan Kelly? Mason Plumlee? That's three guys in three years. Why do you expect it never to happen again?

Also, Nolan Smith was ranked #18 in the RSCI. That's a huge difference from Semi's #32. (Others recently ranked #18 in the RSCI: Mason Plumlee; Brandon Ingram).

Another 18:
James Harden

Richard Jefferson was 33 rated out of hs and did fine.
Dahntay Jones was 91 (which could explain why we didn't recruit until after he'd proven himself.
Okafor was 99 (Emeke, not Jah)
D Wade was 103
Joakim Noah 126.

We may not have much experience with guys 100+ blossoming into stars, partly because we just don't recruit those players but also because it's much more likely for Winslow to blossom into a star than whoever was rated 126 last year (turns out that #126 was Obi Enechionyia, who sparked this comment when he signed to play in college: "landing Enechionyia is certainly cause for celebration amongst the Temple coaching staff.").

http://www.draftexpress.com/RSCI/

Henderson
12-15-2014, 02:01 PM
More teams are now holding open spots to see who becomes available via transfers.

Really? I'm not saying you are wrong, but is there evidence for this? Seems unlikely, but i'm open if you have support.

Clay Feet POF
12-15-2014, 02:10 PM
Really? I'm not saying you are wrong, but is there evidence for this? Seems unlikely, but i'm open if you have support.

After Wojo accepted the MU job in one of his interviews he mentioned this.

Henderson
12-15-2014, 02:31 PM
Quote? Link? Not saying you are wrong. But you might be. And do you really think coaches are not making offers in hopes of a transfer a year away? "More" of them as you suggest?

Bluedog
12-15-2014, 02:41 PM
Know way to know is there, the landscape of players transferring is changing. More teams are now holding open spots to see who becomes available via transfers.


Really? I'm not saying you are wrong, but is there evidence for this? Seems unlikely, but i'm open if you have support.


After Wojo accepted the MU job in one of his interviews he mentioned this.


Quote? Link? Not saying you are wrong. But you might be. And do you really think coaches are not making offers in hopes of a transfer a year away? "More" of them as you suggest?

Here you go:

Regardless of opinion, here's the undeniable side effect [of the large number of transfers in NCAA men's basketball]: Most coaching staffs now recruit in a different way than even two years ago -- essentially stockpiling an open scholarship, sometimes two, because a good transfer (a better player in many cases) can hold more value than a freshman.

I spoke with coaches who admitted that unless they landed the two, three or four players for 2015 they really wanted, an open spot would be saved for a transfer next spring. Why worry about filling up the roster months ahead of time when it's reasonable and acceptable to use that final spot come March, April or May with a transfer?

"It's about adapting," Gonzaga coach Mark Few said. "It's a reality. We're a very adaptable program. The reality is, these players here that we're watching, there are a lot of good players. But there's also a lot of good ones on the transfer market. I think you have to be adaptable and say, 'That's a viable place for us to go get a really good player.' "


How the transfer trend has altered the way coaches recruit at AAU level
http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/24639880/how-the-transfer-trend-has-altered-the-way-coaches-recruit-at-aau-level

Kedsy
12-15-2014, 03:19 PM
Namely, no Justice, no Tyus, no Brandon [nor any late surprise recruit/transfer], and thus only 4 returning perimeter players for 3 perimeter positions, and none of them as tall/strong as Semi. Now, if despite his size/strength, Semi still wouldn't be a solid defender, then you're likely correct that he'd get closer to 10 than to 20 mpg. My Semi-best-case [~20 mpg] would require him both to improve on D and be a dependable 3-bomber.

Yes, we're talking about the same scenario. To predict Semi's hypothetical playing time, using Coach K's past behavior as a guide, I don't think the question is, "who has the size to be the perfect SF." If it was, for example Michael Gbinije would have gotten more minutes in 2012. Instead, I think the question is, "how many guys are ahead of you in the perimeter rotation." In this case, I would think Rasheed, Matt, Grayson, and Luke would all be ahead of Semi. If so, it'd be hard for him to get much more than 10 mpg. If he managed to move ahead of, e.g., Grayson or Luke, he'd get more minutes, possibly closer to 20.


But having only 8 scholarship players would be unnerving, hardly balanced by the elimination of threads debating whether Krzyzewski would go 9-deep.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. I much prefer having 9 or 10 scholarship players on hand for contingencies.

Clay Feet POF
12-15-2014, 03:54 PM
Here you go:



How the transfer trend has altered the way coaches recruit at AAU level
http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/24639880/how-the-transfer-trend-has-altered-the-way-coaches-recruit-at-aau-level


Thanks, for this. Iowa State has been pretty good at this. Check out their roster. They seemed to have garner the nickname of "Broken Toys U" by some persons.

Duke3517
12-15-2014, 07:20 PM
I know Duke is having great success this year but the program has almost shifted from primary 3-4 year players to just one and done athletes. Very bad news and an extremely disappointing day for Duke.

Edouble
12-15-2014, 07:38 PM
I know Duke is having great success this year but the program has almost shifted from primary 3-4 year players to just one and done athletes. Very bad news and an extremely disappointing day for Duke.

Just one and done athletes? We've had two in the past three seasons.

Jah's departure is a certainty, yes, but we are playing quite a mix of ages in our primary rotation: 3 freshman, 1 sophomore, 3 juniors, 1 senior.

The transfer of a player who played very little and was likely to continue to play very little during the rest of his career is not what I would call extremely disappointing from the standpoint of a program shift.

Duke3517
12-15-2014, 08:48 PM
Just one and done athletes? We've had two in the past three seasons.

Jah's departure is a certainty, yes, but we are playing quite a mix of ages in our primary rotation: 3 freshman, 1 sophomore, 3 juniors, 1 senior.

The transfer of a player who played very little and was likely to continue to play very little during the rest of his career is not what I would call extremely disappointing from the standpoint of a program shift.

I get it, but over the last 4 seasons Duke has put too much emphasis on these freshman. Okafor is way to good for the college game. It is such a waste of time for him to be playing for Duke. Certainly not a waste of time academically (even the broadcaster for the elon game said that).

What I'm hoping for is continuing to get guys like Allen, Jones, Kennard, Sulaimon, and Plumlee. Guys you know are 3-4 year players. We need to hope that continues.

-jk
12-15-2014, 08:51 PM
I get it, but over the last 4 seasons Duke has put too much emphasis on these freshman. Okafor is way to good for the college game. It is such a waste of time for him to be playing for Duke. Certainly not a waste of time academically (even the broadcaster for the elon game said that).

What I'm hoping for is continuing to get guys like Allen, Jones, Kennard, Sulaimon, and Plumlee. Guys you know are 3-4 year players. We need to hope that continues.

Yeah, I think we get that you don't like one-and-dones. Unfortunately, the NBA has rigged the system, and college hoops can only react. To be the best, we have to dip into that one-and-done crowd. Hopefully we dip thoughtfully...

-jk

FerryFor50
12-15-2014, 09:03 PM
I get it, but over the last 4 seasons Duke has put too much emphasis on these freshman. Okafor is way to good for the college game. It is such a waste of time for him to be playing for Duke. Certainly not a waste of time academically (even the broadcaster for the elon game said that).

What I'm hoping for is continuing to get guys like Allen, Jones, Kennard, Sulaimon, and Plumlee. Guys you know are 3-4 year players. We need to hope that continues.

Really not sure what your obsession is with one and dones. Duke doesn't make the rules requiring players to come to college for a year. They just adapt to them. Duke is adjusting to the college landscape. They have a good mix of one and dones and 4 year guys. They're not Kentucky, which is nothing but one and dones.

And the one and dones that Duke *does* recruit have been pretty top notch kids. No off court issues. Great personalities. Smart. Represent the university well. Plus, they help Duke win. Some of my favorite Duke players have been one and done players - Irving, Okafor and Jabari are great examples.

Not sure where the one and done hate comes from.

Saratoga2
12-15-2014, 09:26 PM
Yes, we're talking about the same scenario. To predict Semi's hypothetical playing time, using Coach K's past behavior as a guide, I don't think the question is, "who has the size to be the perfect SF." If it was, for example Michael Gbinije would have gotten more minutes in 2012. Instead, I think the question is, "how many guys are ahead of you in the perimeter rotation." In this case, I would think Rasheed, Matt, Grayson, and Luke would all be ahead of Semi. If so, it'd be hard for him to get much more than 10 mpg. If he managed to move ahead of, e.g., Grayson or Luke, he'd get more minutes, possibly closer to 20.



I agree wholeheartedly with this. I much prefer having 9 or 10 scholarship players on hand for contingencies.

I think Semi had possibilities playing the 4. There he had Amile ahead of him and possibly Justise, but Justise will normally play the 3. Having lost depth at that position who do we now have to fill in due to foul trouble,illness or injury?

johnb
12-15-2014, 09:28 PM
Really not sure what your obsession is with one and dones. Duke doesn't make the rules requiring players to come to college for a year. They just adapt to them. Duke is adjusting to the college landscape. They have a good mix of one and dones and 4 year guys. They're not Kentucky, which is nothing but one and dones.

And the one and dones that Duke *does* recruit have been pretty top notch kids. No off court issues. Great personalities. Smart. Represent the university well. Plus, they help Duke win. Some of my favorite Duke players have been one and done players - Irving, Okafor and Jabari are great examples.

Not sure where the one and done hate comes from.

Toss in Luol Deng, and almost all of our one and done guys are terrific. I have no complaints about recruiting such players.

Dukehky
12-15-2014, 09:42 PM
Toss in Luol Deng, and almost all of our one and done guys are terrific. I have no complaints about recruiting such players.

Austin Rivers played his heart out every single night and hit one the biggest shots in Duke basketball history. I just don't like how since he hasn't become a star in the NBA that he kind of gets relegated to being the odd man out of our big impact frosh. If he went on to be like Kyrie in the NBA from a production point of view, people would rave about him. AR wore his heart on his sleeve, and anytime that happens a lot of people will respond negatively. Just because his teammates didn't like him (personality wise), doesn't mean he was a bad teammate. He responded to coaching and tried his best. Not the place for this I will warrant. Yeah, he's not as endearing as Jabari and Kyrie and Luol. I don't even know if you intentionally left out Austin or inferred that in your "almost all" comment, I just wanted to get that off my chest.

All in all and I would say that ALL of our one and done guys are terrific including Maggette. At least for me.

FerryFor50
12-15-2014, 09:59 PM
Austin Rivers played his heart out every single night and hit one the biggest shots in Duke basketball history. I just don't like how since he hasn't become a star in the NBA that he kind of gets relegated to being the odd man out of our big impact frosh. If he went on to be like Kyrie in the NBA from a production point of view, people would rave about him. AR wore his heart on his sleeve, and anytime that happens a lot of people will respond negatively. Just because his teammates didn't like him (personality wise), doesn't mean he was a bad teammate. He responded to coaching and tried his best. Not the place for this I will warrant. Yeah, he's not as endearing as Jabari and Kyrie and Luol. I don't even know if you intentionally left out Austin or inferred that in your "almost all" comment, I just wanted to get that off my chest.

All in all and I would say that ALL of our one and done guys are terrific including Maggette. At least for me.

Being a little over-sensitive? :)

I didn't mention Rivers because he wasn't one of my favorites. Totally appreciate what he did for Duke (as evidenced by my avatar), but I didn't find him as enjoyable to watch. Didn't seem to be having as much fun as a Parker or Irving. Doesn't mean I regret him coming to Duke. Also doesn't mean that I'm not rooting for him to find his place in the NBA.

Des Esseintes
12-15-2014, 10:10 PM
I get it, but over the last 4 seasons Duke has put too much emphasis on these freshman. Okafor is way to good for the college game. It is such a waste of time for him to be playing for Duke. Certainly not a waste of time academically (even the broadcaster for the elon game said that).

What I'm hoping for is continuing to get guys like Allen, Jones, Kennard, Sulaimon, and Plumlee. Guys you know are 3-4 year players. We need to hope that continues.

Total agreement here. What Duke needs to do is refuse to recruit the best players in the country because...because, uh...because in the past the best players stayed longer and now they don't and we need some way to formally protest against the passage of time. Yeah, that's the ticket! No change, ever! None! Which means we also must win as many games as before and be as talented as before. So we should get the best players after all, and they just need to always stay many years instead of one. We can be the one program encased in amber that never has to acknowledge external realities so our fanbase can continue to have the appearance of athlete-student relationship with which it is most comfortable. Because that's the most important thing, after all, being comfortable.

jv001
12-15-2014, 10:19 PM
Total agreement here. What Duke needs to do is refuse to recruit the best players in the country because...because, uh...because in the past the best players stayed longer and now they don't and we need some way to formally protest against the passage of time. Yeah, that's the ticket! No change, ever! None! Which means we also must win as many games as before and be as talented as before. So we should get the best players after all, and they just need to always stay many years instead of one. We can be the one program encased in amber that never has to acknowledge external realities so our fanbase can continue to have the appearance of athlete-student relationship with which it is most comfortable. Because that's the most important thing, after all, being comfortable.

Couldn't spork you but I will give you :cool: GoDuke!

Duke3517
12-15-2014, 11:11 PM
Really not sure what your obsession is with one and dones. Duke doesn't make the rules requiring players to come to college for a year. They just adapt to them. Duke is adjusting to the college landscape. They have a good mix of one and dones and 4 year guys. They're not Kentucky, which is nothing but one and dones.

And the one and dones that Duke *does* recruit have been pretty top notch kids. No off court issues. Great personalities. Smart. Represent the university well. Plus, they help Duke win. Some of my favorite Duke players have been one and done players - Irving, Okafor and Jabari are great examples.

Not sure where the one and done hate comes from.

I am certainly not talking about their character or how they represented the university. They represented them very well. Not the biggest fan of Rivers only because I didn't feel like he was a good fit. Though they didn't have Ryan Kelly which was a huge loss at the time I don't think it is just coincidence that they lost in the first round of the NCAA that year and the next year they made it to the elite 8.

This years team is just unique and something that as long as I have been a fan have never seen (can't speak for everyone). Get three new impact freshman, throw them into the mix, find early success, and be an early contender to win it all. Wisconsin win was fantastic. As stated in previous posts Duke and we fans should not apologize for getting a guy like Okafor but it is a giant waste of time for him because he is too talented for the college game. We Duke fans need to just enjoy having a guy of his caliber while we can.

Kedsy
12-16-2014, 12:02 AM
I think Semi had possibilities playing the 4. There he had Amile ahead of him and possibly Justise, but Justise will normally play the 3. Having lost depth at that position who do we now have to fill in due to foul trouble,illness or injury?

Clearly, this year, Semi was the 5th big (behind Jahlil, Amile, Marshall, and Justise). So, yeah, we lost some depth, but Marshall subs for Jahlil and Coach K clearly preferred Justise over Semi as a sub for Amile. So if we have "foul trouble, illness or injury," either Amile will play more minutes or Justise will play more minutes at PF, leaving more minutes at SF for either Rasheed or Matt or both (and/or Grayson, although he clearly seems to be behind the other perimeter options at this point). Which I believe is probably what would happen whether Semi was available or not.

Next year, based on our personnel, Semi probably would have been our 5th perimeter player (behind Rasheed, Matt, Grayson, and Luke), conceivably 6th perimeter player (if Tyus or Justise stays for another year). It's also possible Semi would have been our 5th big (behind Amile, Marshall, Sean, and Chase), but either way it wouldn't have been a lot of minutes for him, probably a few more minutes as the 5th perimeter guy than as the 5th big man.

DukieTiger
12-16-2014, 09:19 AM
Clearly, this year, Semi was the 5th big (behind Jahlil, Amile, Marshall, and Justise). So, yeah, we lost some depth, but Marshall subs for Jahlil and Coach K clearly preferred Justise over Semi as a sub for Amile. So if we have "foul trouble, illness or injury," either Amile will play more minutes or Justise will play more minutes at PF, leaving more minutes at SF for either Rasheed or Matt or both (and/or Grayson, although he clearly seems to be behind the other perimeter options at this point). Which I believe is probably what would happen whether Semi was available or not.

Next year, based on our personnel, Semi probably would have been our 5th perimeter player (behind Rasheed, Matt, Grayson, and Luke), conceivably 6th perimeter player (if Tyus or Justise stays for another year). It's also possible Semi would have been our 5th big (behind Amile, Marshall, Sean, and Chase), but either way it wouldn't have been a lot of minutes for him, probably a few more minutes as the 5th perimeter guy than as the 5th big man.

^Not to mention the possibility of Duke adding Ingram or Swanigan.

Semi made a smart move, and the only real impact I see is a slight dent in upperclass leadership in a couple of years. By the time Semi would have been a senior, Duke will likely only have Matt Jones and Grayson Allen as upperclassmen- for whatever that is worth.

flyingdutchdevil
12-16-2014, 09:32 AM
^Not to mention the possibility of Duke adding Ingram or Swanigan.

Semi made a smart move, and the only real impact I see is a slight dent in upperclass leadership in a couple of years. By the time Semi would have been a senior, Duke will likely only have Matt Jones and Grayson Allen as upperclassmen- for whatever that is worth.

Don't forget Obi. But your point is very well taken. We will be veeerrrry young in 2 years, no questions asked.

Neals384
12-16-2014, 09:37 AM
However, K, rightly or wrongly does not play it that way. In the cupcake games prior to the ACC, he plays all of the scholly guys and plays the end of the bench scholly guys, a decent amount of minutes in all those games. However, in the tough pre-ACC games, those that are not going to be in the 7.5 - 8 man rotation, the 9th man and beyond is just not going to see the floor at all in those games. Sometimes that frustrates me a little, but K is the greatest coach of all time so obviously his methodology works. For me personally, I have to believe if he plays Semi and Grayson 3 to 5 minutes in the first half of the Wisconsin game, and maybe 2-3 minutes in the 2nd half, we still win that game, and they would have gotten their feet wet in the hostile environment of the Number 2 team in the country. Maybe I am wrong there, but part of me believes it would have been a good idea to do that for the development of those kids. That said, I do fall firmly in the camp that you both develop and earn your stripes for the most part in practice. The value of that experience cannot be denied. The question is, had K done that in the Wisconsin and Stanford games, does Semi decide to stick around? We will never know.




When would you have played Semi? At 12:15 of the first half with the score 9-9 in place of Matt? At 5:06 of the second half in place of Sheed, with the score 63-60? Coach had no way of knowing this would be a 10 point win. Would you really expect him to play Semi in a close game where a loss might cost a seed come tourney time?

Ichabod Drain
12-16-2014, 10:02 AM
^Not to mention the possibility of Duke adding Ingram or Swanigan.

Semi made a smart move, and the only real impact I see is a slight dent in upperclass leadership in a couple of years. By the time Semi would have been a senior, Duke will likely only have Matt Jones and Grayson Allen as upperclassmen- for whatever that is worth.

Sean Obi as well!

lotusland
12-16-2014, 10:02 AM
Toss in Luol Deng, and almost all of our one and done guys are terrific. I have no complaints about recruiting such players.

I've enjoyed duke's OAD players too but remember we also offered john wall and shabazz Muhammad. While neither was a horrible kid they did some issues. To me that meant duke was willing to overlook the potential problems because of their obvious talent.

Li_Duke
12-16-2014, 10:09 AM
I've enjoyed duke's OAD players too but remember we also offered john wall and shabazz Muhammad. While neither was a horrible kid they did some issues. To me that meant duke was willing to overlook the potential problems because of their obvious talent.

I'll give you Muhammad, but what was so problematic about Wall? By all accounts, he was a good student, and he's obviously been successful on the court. The only problem that I can recall is he got into trouble for hanging out in an abandoned house over the summer.

Ichabod Drain
12-16-2014, 10:09 AM
I've enjoyed duke's OAD players too but remember we also offered john wall and shabazz Muhammad. While neither was a horrible kid they did some issues. To me that meant duke was willing to overlook the potential problems because of their obvious talent.

Shabazz was a pretty terrible teammate...

I would have absolutely loved to have John Wall though. Duke wouldv'e owned the market of best young PG's in the NBA.

DukieTiger
12-16-2014, 10:31 AM
Don't forget Obi. But your point is very well taken. We will be veeerrrry young in 2 years, no questions asked.

Ah yes, thanks! And it does make me wonder if Duke might be in the transfer market again in the next year-ish. We might have up to 8 scholarships available going into the 2016-2017 season (yes, I know K doesn't always use every scholarship slot).

And not to be dramatic, I know this has to do with the overall trajectory of college basketball, but there is a mildly alarming trend in Duke's recruiting. After next year, here is the list of players I feel confident will be at Duke as upperclassmen:

2013: Matt Jones & Sean Obi
2014: Grayson Allen
2015: Luke Kennard
2016: ?? I don't see anyone Duke is heavily recruiting who projects as more than a 2-year player. Maybe Tyus Battle?

Again, I know this has to do with the overall trajectory of college basketball. But I do think there is such value in having quality players in the program for 3-4 years. Especially at Duke, where program culture is so important. It will be interesting to see how Duke's roster develops after Sulaimon/Jefferson/Plumlee leave.

Billy Dat
12-16-2014, 11:28 AM
I would have absolutely loved to have John Wall though. Duke wouldv'e owned the market of best young PG's in the NBA.

Ah, but if we have Wall, then Scheyer isn't running the point and maybe the chemistry that drove that team to a title never really develops. There's always an opportunity cost with these things. In this case, it worked in our favor.

Ichabod Drain
12-16-2014, 11:50 AM
Ah, but if we have Wall, then Scheyer isn't running the point and maybe the chemistry that drove that team to a title never really develops. There's always an opportunity cost with these things. In this case, it worked in our favor.

Or maybe we go undefeated.

lotusland
12-16-2014, 01:43 PM
I'll give you Muhammad, but what was so problematic about Wall? By all accounts, he was a good student, and he's obviously been successful on the court. The only problem that I can recall is he got into trouble for hanging out in an abandoned house over the summer.

I don't remember the details but hanging out in an abandoned house is probably the charitable description of the incident I recall. I think another word for that migt be trespassing or possibly breaking and entering. Didn't he also have a handler of sorts? Seems like I recall discussion of someone with connections to Worldwide Wes. I got the impression that, like Bazz, Wall was just looking for a a spot to market himself for a year and not really unpack his bags.

To me that sort of player can do more damage than good if they commit violations and are ruled ineligible retroactively.

detule
12-16-2014, 02:18 PM
I don't remember the details but hanging out in an abandoned house is probably the charitable description of the incident I recall. I think another word for that migt be trespassing or possibly breaking and entering. Didn't he also have a handler of sorts? Seems like I recall discussion of someone with connections to Worldwide Wes. I got the impression that, like Bazz, Wall was just looking for a a spot to market himself for a year and not really unpack his bags.

To me that sort of player can do more damage than good if they commit violations and are ruled ineligible retroactively.

When I was in high-school, I recall a few instances when I found myself doing what can charitably be described as, hanging out in an abandoned house.

Are we holding these guys to unreasonable standards?

Des Esseintes
12-16-2014, 02:20 PM
I don't remember the details but hanging out in an abandoned house is probably the charitable description of the incident I recall. I think another word for that migt be trespassing or possibly breaking and entering. Didn't he also have a handler of sorts? Seems like I recall discussion of someone with connections to Worldwide Wes. I got the impression that, like Bazz, Wall was just looking for a a spot to market himself for a year and not really unpack his bags.

To me that sort of player can do more damage than good if they commit violations and are ruled ineligible retroactively.

Per Jim Sumner, Duke and Wall were never really serious. It benefited both at the time to have it appear a real courtship. Wall upped his Q rating; Duke looked to be in on a prime guy when its stock was at a relative low. So Wall should not be counted, for better or worse, among our true 1 and done targets.

roywhite
12-16-2014, 02:30 PM
Per Jim Sumner, Duke and Wall were never really serious. It benefited both at the time to have it appear a real courtship. Wall upped his Q rating; Duke looked to be in on a prime guy when its stock was at a relative low. So Wall should not be counted, for better or worse, among our true 1 and done targets.

Geez...now he tells us ;)

Didn't we max out a thread on Wall's recruitment?

devildeac
12-16-2014, 02:57 PM
Geez...now he tells us ;)

Didn't we max out a thread on Wall's recruitment?

Nah, only the 4th "most replied to" thread on the EK Forum.

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?2-Elizabeth-King-Forum&sort=replycount&order=desc


;):rolleyes:

TexHawk
12-16-2014, 03:07 PM
I don't remember the details but hanging out in an abandoned house is probably the charitable description of the incident I recall. I think another word for that migt be trespassing or possibly breaking and entering. Didn't he also have a handler of sorts? Seems like I recall discussion of someone with connections to Worldwide Wes. I got the impression that, like Bazz, Wall was just looking for a a spot to market himself for a year and not really unpack his bags.


Brian Clifton.

Highlander
12-16-2014, 03:08 PM
I get it, but over the last 4 seasons Duke has put too much emphasis on these freshman. Okafor is way to good for the college game. It is such a waste of time for him to be playing for Duke. Certainly not a waste of time academically (even the broadcaster for the elon game said that).

What I'm hoping for is continuing to get guys like Allen, Jones, Kennard, Sulaimon, and Plumlee. Guys you know are 3-4 year players. We need to hope that continues.

Here's the problem - you never KNOW who will stay and who will go, or when they will go. There was some serious doubt last year that Parker might choose to stay another year (OK, maybe not too serious, but he did pause to consider his options). There are guys like Okafor and Hood that you know 100% are going to go regardless, but then there are guys like Josh McRoberts, Mason Plumlee, and Gerald Henderson who could have left early but chose to stay an extra year or two. And then there are guys like Luol Deng, Corey Maggette, and Mike Dunleavy that you expect to stay that leave eligibility on the table.

My point is when you recruit guys, you take a gamble on them and they take a gamble on you. They are never guaranteed to stay 3-4 years until the do. Your only chance is to balance the one and done talents like Okafor with some experienced leaders like Quinn Cook and Rasheed Suliamon, and reload on an annual basis. If you get great players, some of them are going to go pro early. Your solution of avoiding great players in favor of good ones is nonsensical. Why would Duke tell someone like Okafor that we don't want him to come play for us because he's only going to stay for a year?

Billy Dat
12-16-2014, 03:23 PM
Here's the problem - you never KNOW who will stay and who will go, or when they will go. There was some serious doubt last year that Parker might choose to stay another year (OK, maybe not too serious, but he did pause to consider his options). There are guys like Okafor and Hood that you know 100% are going to go regardless, but then there are guys like Josh McRoberts, Mason Plumlee, and Gerald Henderson who could have left early but chose to stay an extra year or two. And then there are guys like Luol Deng, Corey Maggette, and Mike Dunleavy that you expect to stay that leave eligibility on the table.

My point is when you recruit guys, you take a gamble on them and they take a gamble on you. They are never guaranteed to stay 3-4 years until the do. Your only chance is to balance the one and done talents like Okafor with some experienced leaders like Quinn Cook and Rasheed Suliamon, and reload on an annual basis. If you get great players, some of them are going to go pro early. Your solution of avoiding great players in favor of good ones is nonsensical. Why would Duke tell someone like Okafor that we don't want him to come play for us because he's only going to stay for a year?

What's interesting about the phenomenon, and the reason for this thread, is that you never know who is going to leave on either end of the talent pool.

Recent "One and Done" NBA List:
Irving, Rivers, Parker, Hood, presumably Okafor and maybe others

Recent Transfer List:
Ojeleye, Murphy, Gbinije, Czyz

We get it from both ends. Luckily, the trend is that some of the reloading is happening on the transfer market (Hood, Curry, Obi) instead of exclusively in recruiting so you've got more than one pool to go after. Also, because transfers tend to happen in December, at least they are staggered with the NBA defections which allows some adjustment period.

It's very hard to thread the needle properly and build a team with a core that sustains over time. Your lasting core tends to be guys who are rotation players but not stars - basically your 3rd - 8th men. Very interesting.

lotusland
12-16-2014, 03:30 PM
When I was in high-school, I recall a few instances when I found myself doing what can charitably be described as, hanging out in an abandoned house.

Are we holding these guys to unreasonable standards?

Doing what? I remember "exploring" old abandoned houses and houses under construction when I was in Middle School and younger because we were bored. Once I had a car I didn't need a place to hang out. I don't think the girls I dated would have fallen for the "do you want to hang out in that old abandoned house" line. Maybe I could have displayed my etchings there::D (did anyone ever actually use that line?).

The point is you can hang out at home. Chances are they were getting into something that was best done unsupervised. With that said, if there was a party going on at the old abandoned house I probably would have been there when the cops rolled up too and Yes I'm probably holding him to an unreasonably high standard.

lotusland
12-16-2014, 03:33 PM
Brian Clifton.

Bingo!

Furniture
12-16-2014, 05:41 PM
When I was in high-school, I recall a few instances when I found myself doing what can charitably be described as, hanging out in an abandoned house.

Are we holding these guys to unreasonable standards?

I most probably did too.

Duvall
12-16-2014, 05:45 PM
I don't remember the details but hanging out in an abandoned house is probably the charitable description of the incident I recall. I think another word for that migt be trespassing or possibly breaking and entering. Didn't he also have a handler of sorts? Seems like I recall discussion of someone with connections to Worldwide Wes. I got the impression that, like Bazz, Wall was just looking for a a spot to market himself for a year and not really unpack his bags.

To me that sort of player can do more damage than good if they commit violations and are ruled ineligible retroactively.

Wait, why are we judging Wall hypothetically when we know that everything went fine in reality?

Henderson
12-16-2014, 07:14 PM
Back to Semi. He says he wants to go to a good academic school with a good locker room, playing time, and a history of NCAA play.

Programs seem to be lining up, and Semi says he wants to make a decision before next semester. He had some really nice things to say about Wisconsin. Stanford, Oregon, UCLA and Arizona wanted him 2 years ago, and I assume each will make a pitch. Kansas never offered him but is said to be interested. I don't think Northwestern, Vandy, or the Ivys can offer significant post-season play, so I wouldn't bet on any of them. Maybe the same with Oregon. A Maryland blogger speculated maybe there (FWIW). Georgetown is a name I read recently too.

No vigil thread needed, but I'm on a vigil.

lotusland
12-16-2014, 07:50 PM
Wait, why are we judging Wall hypothetically when we know that everything went fine in reality?

I’m not really judging Wall and I don’t care about the abandoned house episode. I have nothing against him and I don’t even blame him for having a “handler”. Sometimes where there is smoke there is fire. As long as the OAD era persists I would rather see Duke pass on guys who may have handlers shopping them like Wall, Bazz, and Anthony Davis. I don’t blame any of those guys even if they did want to get paid but I don’t think they belong in college so I’d rather see them go to UK or UCLA than Duke.

For what it is worth I don’t think we can say for sure at this point that everything went fine with Wall at UK any more than it was fine with Peppers and McCants several years after they left UNC. Some guys are higher risk than others so why play with fire?

IMO Parker and Okafor are the only Duke guys that were definite OAD players and they seem to have taken full advantage of their OAD year at Duke. Rivers probably was gone unless he totally bombed but, with him being Doc’s son, there really wasn’t any concern about handlers working a payoff.

TexHawk
12-16-2014, 08:35 PM
Back to Semi. He says he wants to go to a good academic school with a good locker room, playing time, and a history of NCAA play.

Programs seem to be lining up, and Semi says he wants to make a decision before next semester. He had some really nice things to say about Wisconsin. Stanford, Oregon, UCLA and Arizona wanted him 2 years ago, and I assume each will make a pitch. Kansas never offered him but is said to be interested. I don't think Northwestern, Vandy, or the Ivys can offer significant post-season play, so I wouldn't bet on any of them. Maybe the same with Oregon. A Maryland blogger speculated maybe there (FWIW). Georgetown is a name I read recently too.

No vigil thread needed, but I'm on a vigil.

I saw that KU expressed interest, and it surprises me. Bill Self has a glut of wing players, and is going hard after Jaylen Brown. Maybe this shows that Kelly Oubre thinks he's NBA ready and we are out of it for Brown.

Around here, I have heard Wichita State, K-State, and Wisconsin. Semi loved Wisconsin during his recruitment. His brother played at K-State, but that was under Frank Martin. Wichita State could be a good option, and they would have a pretty salty team 2nd semester next year with Semi, as Baker/Vanfleet are seniors, and Frankamp will be eligible.

Duvall
12-16-2014, 08:38 PM
Maybe this shows that Kelly Oubre thinks he's NBA ready and we are out of it for Brown.

That would be...surprising. Has Oubre gotten into the rotation yet?

Henderson
12-16-2014, 09:20 PM
That would be...surprising. Has Oubre gotten into the rotation yet?

Draft Express, Chad Ford, and others still project him as a lottery pick.

He's only averaging 10 mpg, but his PT has increased each of the last five games, including 17 most recently against Utah. By way of comparison, Corey Maggette averaged 17.7 mpg before leaving.

Edouble
12-16-2014, 09:53 PM
Draft Express, Chad Ford, and others still project him as a lottery pick.

He's only averaging 10 mpg, but his PT has increased each of the last five games, including 17 most recently against Utah. By way of comparison, Corey Maggette averaged 17.7 mpg before leaving.

Daniel Orton averaged 13.2 mpg before leaving. Food for thought. (insert Orton food joke here: ______)

Henderson
12-16-2014, 10:02 PM
Daniel Orton averaged 13.2 mpg before leaving. Food for thought. (insert Orton food joke here: ______)

But any reference to the fact that Orton played at UK and now plays for the Sichuan Blue Whales would be in very poor taste.

FerryFor50
12-16-2014, 10:12 PM
But any reference to the fact that Orton played at UK and now plays for the Sichuan Blue Whales would be in very poor taste.

Go Big Blue! :D

Edouble
12-17-2014, 01:28 AM
But any reference to the fact that Orton played at UK and now plays for the Sichuan Blue Whales would be in very poor taste.

That's just a fish story. All of Cal's first rounders stay in the NBA.

TexHawk
12-17-2014, 10:49 AM
That would be...surprising. Has Oubre gotten into the rotation yet?

Sort of, but not really. He's getting better, more comfortable. But he's absolutely not the Wiggins 2.0 that many of us (myself included) had talked ourselves into. I do think he will impact a few conference games with his athleticism and defense.

I am prepared for him to be in the NBA next year, anything KU gets out of him will be cream cheese. If only he was 3 inches taller (with a few more pounds).

Henderson
12-17-2014, 12:23 PM
If only he was 3 inches taller (with a few more pounds).

If only I were 3 inches taller (with a few fewer pounds)...

And more than a 4 inch vertical...

And some quickness...

And a decent shot...

And about 35 fewer years...

And looked like a young Paul Newman...

And Superhero powers...

I'd be fine with 10 mpg.

Saratoga2
12-17-2014, 01:06 PM
Ah yes, thanks! And it does make me wonder if Duke might be in the transfer market again in the next year-ish. We might have up to 8 scholarships available going into the 2016-2017 season (yes, I know K doesn't always use every scholarship slot).

And not to be dramatic, I know this has to do with the overall trajectory of college basketball, but there is a mildly alarming trend in Duke's recruiting. After next year, here is the list of players I feel confident will be at Duke as upperclassmen:

2013: Matt Jones & Sean Obi
2014: Grayson Allen
2015: Luke Kennard
2016: ?? I don't see anyone Duke is heavily recruiting who projects as more than a 2-year player. Maybe Tyus Battle?

Again, I know this has to do with the overall trajectory of college basketball. But I do think there is such value in having quality players in the program for 3-4 years. Especially at Duke, where program culture is so important. It will be interesting to see how Duke's roster develops after Sulaimon/Jefferson/Plumlee leave.

Duke is loaded with quality players, quite of few who are projected to leave in 1 or 2 years. Is that where we are headed to stay competitive? If so, maybe we should use Calipari's approach and use his line substitution approach, particularly against weaker teams. Maybe we could hold on to some of our mid level talent. Semi may well prove to be a very good player as time goes on. He has a lot of the tools and it is a shame to have players like him leaving to find PT.

English
12-17-2014, 02:02 PM
Duke is loaded with quality players, quite of few who are projected to leave in 1 or 2 years. Is that where we are headed to stay competitive? If so, maybe we should use Calipari's approach and use his line substitution approach, particularly against weaker teams. Maybe we could hold on to some of our mid level talent.

Maybe, just maybe, if Coach K abandons the foundation of his rotational system, which he has used for over three decades, Duke MAY BE able to hold on to SOME of the mid level talent? I don't get it. We have a transfer roughly once every three years or more. Those are the guys who projected or were clued in by the coaches that they weren't likely to play regular starters minutes for the foreseeable future, if ever in their Duke career.

I have great feelings about every kid who matriculates into the Duke Basketball program, and I'm sad that one or two decide it's in his best interests to leave for another situation--but honestly, these hyperbolic sentiments about the crumbling nature of Duke basketball being clearly signaled by the departure of the 9th or 10th man on the squad, where wholesale changes are needed else we risk falling into obscurity, are tired. I'll miss Semi, but let's pump the brakes about how this makes Duke highly vulnerable to an illness (really, an illness?) or injury, or how practices are ruined of their competition. Nor does this make us markedly more vulnerable in two years. Or three. That's the nature of recruiting. It has been ever since the inception of the early exit to the NBA.

And to the insistence that playing 10 guys is the only way to keep the guys at the end of the bench in the fold, nonsense. Plenty of guys have come through Duke in the last decade and disproven that. Nolan Smith, Ryan Kelly, Mason Plumlee, Quinn Cook, Lance Thomas, Brian Zoubek, and on and on all have shown a willingness to develop their games and their bodies and assume larger roles as they mature through their college careers. I mean, Calipari is already going away from that approach with the injury to Poythress--and if you want to talk about transfers, I don't think pointing to Calipari to support your point is a good idea...they've had their share of transfers over the last few years. There are clear drawbacks to going 10-deep, and if you've watched that UK team this season, you couldn't reasonably call what they're running an offense in rhythm. Their defense is otherworldly because they're bigger than 29 NBA teams, and it's impossible to get a layup on them. I'm convinced he would have dropped the line changes regardless of that injury, but that's merely my opinion after watching all of their games--you have to go to your best guys when the game is on the line. I mean, look no further than Ole Roy, who gets absolutely creamed by his own fanbase for wasting minutes on his end-of-bench guys instead of his key rotation players (Jackson Simmons says hi).

Coach K is on record saying that he likes to play his starters together in large minutes, even early in the season against weaker competition, because he expects it to pay dividends later when the key rotation guys are much more comfortable and familiar with each others' games. If that means three years from now, Duke has another 9th or 10th guy in the rotation decide he can get more burn elsewhere, the coaching staff will deal with it.

COYS
12-17-2014, 02:05 PM
Duke is loaded with quality players, quite of few who are projected to leave in 1 or 2 years. Is that where we are headed to stay competitive? If so, maybe we should use Calipari's approach and use his line substitution approach, particularly against weaker teams. Maybe we could hold on to some of our mid level talent. Semi may well prove to be a very good player as time goes on. He has a lot of the tools and it is a shame to have players like him leaving to find PT.


Calipari used line changes, but minutes still weren't evenly distributed. And now that Poythress is out for the season, UK is going exactly 9 deep. Yes, that is a deep team. But it really is only one player deeper than Duke currently goes. It remains to be seen how many minutes the 9th guy on UK (currently Marcus Lee, but in their hardest-fought game of the year against Texas, he only got 4 minutes) will actually get as the games get tougher and tougher. Keep in mind that he's a sophomore and he knows that there are more top 10 guys coming in next year, too. I'm not saying that Marcus Lee will or won't decide to abandon ship, but I'm skeptical that Calipari's hyped "platoon" is really going to be used in the hardest games, meaning that guys like Lee are going to wonder when/if they'll get the PT they want. Also, Duke DID employ a bit of the line-change strategy in some of the early season games. The problem is that, kind of like with Lee at UK, it's clear that there are better players in front of Semi (and Grayson). Would Semi really be content averaging, say 10-12 minutes per game, but getting 4 or fewer in every single tough contest? I'm not so sure. Again, I'm sad to see Semi go, but I think the idea of a platoon keeping guys like Semi happy is probably misplaced. I'm even skeptical of how well it will work at UK. Because Poythress is injured, we'll never really know, but I'd still be willing to bet that, barring injury or foul trouble, Marcus Lee gets squeezed for minutes in the hardest contests for UK this year.

Billy Dat
12-17-2014, 02:06 PM
Jeff Goodman ‏@GoodmanESPN 7m7 minutes ago
Semi Ojeleye been contacted by following, per source: Wisconsin, KU, K-State, SMU, Oregon, Iowa, Illinois, Creighton, Wichita St., Cal, Wash

Notable that none of the K coaching tree is represented.

Kedsy
12-17-2014, 02:11 PM
Duke is loaded with quality players, quite of few who are projected to leave in 1 or 2 years. Is that where we are headed to stay competitive? If so, maybe we should use Calipari's approach and use his line substitution approach, particularly against weaker teams. Maybe we could hold on to some of our mid level talent. Semi may well prove to be a very good player as time goes on. He has a lot of the tools and it is a shame to have players like him leaving to find PT.

These days, more than 400 kids transfer every year in college basketball. That's significantly more than one per year per Division I team.

In the past 5 years, Duke has lost three kids to transfer (Alex Murphy, Mike Gbinije, and Semi), and has gained two (Rodney Hood, Sean Obi). In the past 10 years, Duke has lost eight kids to transfer and gained three. In the past 15 years, Duke has lost ten kids to transfer and gained four. That's probably better than most schools have done.

I remember an article a few years back that stated Duke lost fewer kids to transfer than almost all the other ACC schools. My guess is that's still true. I don't think Coach K has to do anything different to "hold on to some of our mid level talent." We just have to accept the idea that kids transfer from time to time -- and that there's nothing anybody can do about it.

Duvall
12-17-2014, 02:17 PM
Duke is loaded with quality players, quite of few who are projected to leave in 1 or 2 years. Is that where we are headed to stay competitive? If so, maybe we should use Calipari's approach and use his line substitution approach, particularly against weaker teams. Maybe we could hold on to some of our mid level talent. Semi may well prove to be a very good player as time goes on. He has a lot of the tools and it is a shame to have players like him leaving to find PT.

Calipari's approach caused him to lose the leading scorer for the #8 team in the country to a transfer. It happens.

Henderson
12-17-2014, 02:27 PM
These days, more than 400 kids transfer every year in college basketball. That's significantly more than one per year per Division I team.

In the past 5 years, Duke has lost three kids to transfer (Alex Murphy, Mike Gbinije, and Semi), and has gained two (Rodney Hood, Sean Obi). In the past 10 years, Duke has lost eight kids to transfer and gained three. In the past 15 years, Duke has lost ten kids to transfer and gained four. That's probably better than most schools have done.

I remember an article a few years back that stated Duke lost fewer kids to transfer than almost all the other ACC schools. My guess is that's still true. I don't think Coach K has to do anything different to "hold on to some of our mid level talent." We just have to accept the idea that kids transfer from time to time -- and that there's nothing anybody can do about it.

That's good stuff. Agree.

The one amendment I would make is that programs have some ability to affect the numbers by the commitments they make, the community they create, the academic environment they insist upon, the culture that they create, etc. It's not a matter of surrendering to it, but working the issue.

But yeah, kids transfer. Fact of life.

GGLC
12-17-2014, 03:06 PM
Maybe, just maybe, if Coach K abandons the foundation of his rotational system, which he has used for over three decades, Duke MAY BE able to hold on to SOME of the mid level talent? I don't get it. We have a transfer roughly once every three years or more. Those are the guys who projected or were clued in by the coaches that they weren't likely to play regular starters minutes for the foreseeable future, if ever in their Duke career.

I have great feelings about every kid who matriculates into the Duke Basketball program, and I'm sad that one or two decide it's in his best interests to leave for another situation--but honestly, these hyperbolic sentiments about the crumbling nature of Duke basketball being clearly signaled by the departure of the 9th or 10th man on the squad, where wholesale changes are needed else we risk falling into obscurity, are tired. I'll miss Semi, but let's pump the brakes about how this makes Duke highly vulnerable to an illness (really, an illness?) or injury, or how practices are ruined of their competition. Nor does this make us markedly more vulnerable in two years. Or three. That's the nature of recruiting. It has been ever since the inception of the early exit to the NBA.

And to the insistence that playing 10 guys is the only way to keep the guys at the end of the bench in the fold, nonsense. Plenty of guys have come through Duke in the last decade and disproven that. Nolan Smith, Ryan Kelly, Mason Plumlee, Quinn Cook, Lance Thomas, Brian Zoubek, and on and on all have shown a willingness to develop their games and their bodies and assume larger roles as they mature through their college careers. I mean, Calipari is already going away from that approach with the injury to Poythress--and if you want to talk about transfers, I don't think pointing to Calipari to support your point is a good idea...they've had their share of transfers over the last few years. There are clear drawbacks to going 10-deep, and if you've watched that UK team this season, you couldn't reasonably call what they're running an offense in rhythm. Their defense is otherworldly because they're bigger than 29 NBA teams, and it's impossible to get a layup on them. I'm convinced he would have dropped the line changes regardless of that injury, but that's merely my opinion after watching all of their games--you have to go to your best guys when the game is on the line. I mean, look no further than Ole Roy, who gets absolutely creamed by his own fanbase for wasting minutes on his end-of-bench guys instead of his key rotation players (Jackson Simmons says hi).

Coach K is on record saying that he likes to play his starters together in large minutes, even early in the season against weaker competition, because he expects it to pay dividends later when the key rotation guys are much more comfortable and familiar with each others' games. If that means three years from now, Duke has another 9th or 10th guy in the rotation decide he can get more burn elsewhere, the coaching staff will deal with it.

While your post as a whole is fine, the underlined is dead wrong, as Kedsy's post demonstrates.

For me, I'll miss Semi. He's an intriguing prospect and a seemingly fantastic kid. I understand why he made the decision, but (selfishly) I would have enjoyed seeing him blossom here at Duke, and we're kidding ourselves if we think our depth this year and next isn't hurt by his transferring.

jimsumner
12-17-2014, 03:28 PM
Maybe, just maybe, if Coach K abandons the foundation of his rotational system, which he has used for over three decades, Duke MAY BE able to hold on to SOME of the mid level talent? I don't get it. We have a transfer roughly once every three years or more. Those are the guys who projected or were clued in by the coaches that they weren't likely to play regular starters minutes for the foreseeable future, if ever in their Duke career.
.

True in some cases, e.g. Boykin or Czyz. Michael Thompson was never going to start ahead of Shelden Williams.

But Duke absolutely expected Alex Murphy to be a major contributor and even backed off people like Justin Anderson in part because they thought Murphy would be the starting 3 for several seasons. Duke expected Eric Boateng to compete for a starting spot as a sophomore. King and Gbinijie had good chances to be in the rotation as sophomores.

Elliot Williams was a special case.

So, it's hard to lump these guys together other than just acknowledge that--as a general rule--today's kids seem to be less inclined than earlier generations to woodshed and wait their turn. We live in an instant-gratification society and college sports is hardly the only place we see that.

And it's become a lot more frequent than once every three years. Since the end of the 2006 season, Duke has lost Boateng, Boykin, Williams, Czyz, King, Gbinijie, Murphy and Ojeleye. Note that the first four became starters at their new schools, King was a wash-out and the jury is still out on the other three.

lotusland
12-18-2014, 09:30 AM
There's more to it than players just not waiting their turn. At the level where duke is recruiting now we are bringing in new hotshot OAD players every year so a guy like Murphy saw Hood and Parker passing through last year, Winslow this year and on and on so he could easily stay 4 years and never have a "turn". It's an envious position for duke to be in but it also create a more transient team dynamic that I don't really care for.

gus
12-18-2014, 09:50 AM
In the past 15 years, Duke has lost ten kids to transfer and gained four. That's probably better than most schools have done.

It's a zero sum game, so I'm not sure that's mathematically possible.

On average, schools net zero transfers in and out. Duke is below the mean.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
12-18-2014, 10:02 AM
Would be interesting to break down players who transfer "up" (Hood) "laterally" (Murphy, Silent G) or "down."

Also, I recognize there aren't really any "lateral" transfers from Duke.:)

Billy Dat
12-18-2014, 10:05 AM
I'm not sure if this is an endorsement of transferring or of being patient:
http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/101510/top10thursday-best-point-guards

ESPN's list, today, of top college point guards.

#9. Ryan Harrow - Georgia State

A career snapshot
2010 - 2011 - NC State Wolfpack
Transfer to Kentucky
2011 - 2013 - Kentucky Wildcats
Transfer to Georgia State

Obviously, I am posting this tongue in cheek and Harrow's current success is the exception, not the rule. But, in some ways it tells both stories, greener pastures and the need to keep working on your game.

FWIW, Tyus is higher on the list.

FerryFor50
12-18-2014, 10:18 AM
I'm not sure if this is an endorsement of transferring or of being patient:
http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/101510/top10thursday-best-point-guards

ESPN's list, today, of top college point guards.

#9. Ryan Harrow - Georgia State

A career snapshot
2010 - 2011 - NC State Wolfpack
Transfer to Kentucky
2011 - 2013 - Kentucky Wildcats
Transfer to Georgia State

Obviously, I am posting this tongue in cheek and Harrow's current success is the exception, not the rule. But, in some ways it tells both stories, greener pastures and the need to keep working on your game.

FWIW, Tyus is higher on the list.

I think with Harrow, being closer to home helped. Plus, being at a lower pressure school with lesser competition might factor in, as well.

jipops
12-18-2014, 10:29 AM
I'm not sure if this is an endorsement of transferring or of being patient:
http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/101510/top10thursday-best-point-guards

ESPN's list, today, of top college point guards.

#9. Ryan Harrow - Georgia State

A career snapshot
2010 - 2011 - NC State Wolfpack
Transfer to Kentucky
2011 - 2013 - Kentucky Wildcats
Transfer to Georgia State

Obviously, I am posting this tongue in cheek and Harrow's current success is the exception, not the rule. But, in some ways it tells both stories, greener pastures and the need to keep working on your game.

FWIW, Tyus is higher on the list.

How is Nate Britt not on this list!!???!!??

FerryFor50
12-18-2014, 10:36 AM
How is Nate Britt not on this list!!???!!??

Because Wheat did not write the list. :p

Des Esseintes
12-18-2014, 10:51 AM
It's a zero sum game, so I'm not sure that's mathematically possible.

On average, schools net zero transfers in and out. Duke is below the mean.

Well, no. The fact that Duke takes very few transfers IN has little to do with how many Duke has transfer OUT. They are correlated, but the relationship is fairly tangential. We are below the ACC average in BOTH transfers in and out. I'd add that being a program significantly above the mean for transfers IN is probably not a great sign. Players typically drop a tier when transferring, so being high on the plus side of this ledger more or less guarantees you are not a marquee destination. Seth Currys and Sean Obis will happen at Duke more often than they did in the past, but the transfer market is unlikely to become more than a complementary element of roster construction in the near-/medium-term future. And that's a good thing.

gus
12-18-2014, 12:36 PM
Well, no. The fact that Duke takes very few transfers IN has little to do with how many Duke has transfer OUT. They are correlated, but the relationship is fairly tangential. We are below the ACC average in BOTH transfers in and out. I'd add that being a program significantly above the mean for transfers IN is probably not a great sign. Players typically drop a tier when transferring, so being high on the plus side of this ledger more or less guarantees you are not a marquee destination. Seth Currys and Sean Obis will happen at Duke more often than they did in the past, but the transfer market is unlikely to become more than a complementary element of roster construction in the near-/medium-term future. And that's a good thing.

I'm talking nationally. Every transfer in is someone else's transfer out. The average (in minus out) is a zero. That said, I'm not particularly concerned about Duke's transfer history.

Clay Feet POF
12-18-2014, 12:48 PM
http://insider.espn.go.com/blog/jeff-goodman/post?id=4450&ex_cid=InsiderTwitter_GoodmanMidseasonTransfers

More info on Transfers!

jimsumner
12-18-2014, 12:55 PM
There's more to it than players just not waiting their turn. At the level where duke is recruiting now we are bringing in new hotshot OAD players every year so a guy like Murphy saw Hood and Parker passing through last year, Winslow this year and on and on so he could easily stay 4 years and never have a "turn". It's an envious position for duke to be in but it also create a more transient team dynamic that I don't really care for.

But Murphy had several chances to cement a starting position before Hood arrived. He was anointed the starting 3 several times and simply didn't play well enough to maintain the level of play Duke expected of him. Had he done so, Duke might never have approached Hood. Murphy didn't decline to wait his turn. He had his turn(s) and didn't capitalize on them.

Most Duke transfers have done well at their new schools, the exceptions being Mike Chappell and Taylor King and maybe Bill Jackman, who started at Nebraska but ended his career there on the bench.

yancem
12-18-2014, 01:26 PM
But Murphy had several chances to cement a starting position before Hood arrived. He was anointed the starting 3 several times and simply didn't play well enough to maintain the level of play Duke expected of him. Had he done so, Duke might never have approached Hood. Murphy didn't decline to wait his turn. He had his turn(s) and didn't capitalize on them.

Most Duke transfers have done well at their new schools, the exceptions being Mike Chappell and Taylor King and maybe Bill Jackman, who started at Nebraska but ended his career there on the bench.

While it is true that most of Duke's transfers (out) have gone on to be solid players at their new school, with the exception of Billy McCaffrey, I don't believe that any have gone on to be stars. I would venture to say that Duke has gotten more production out of their transfers in than the new teams have gotten out of Duke's transfers out. All that is to say, while it's always a bummer when a player transfers, it rarely hurts the team too much from an on the court perspective. And even in the case of McCaffrey, Duke only suffered by having to repeat as national champions the year he sat out at Vandy.

The one transfer that may have really hurt Duke on the court was Michael Thompson and not because he went on to star somewhere else but because he may have been helpful in the closing minutes of the UConn final four game when Okafor (Emeka) fouled out our front line. Had Thompson decided to stick out the entire 2004 season and possibly transfer at the end of the year, Duke may have hung another banner. Of course there are several other would've, could've, should'ves.

arnie
12-18-2014, 01:35 PM
The one transfer that may have really hurt Duke on the court was Michael Thompson and not because he went on to star somewhere else but because he may have been helpful in the closing minutes of the UConn final four game when Okafor (Emeka) fouled out our front line. Had Thompson decided to stick out the entire 2004 season and possibly transfer at the end of the year, Duke may have hung another banner. Of course there are several other would've, could've, should'ves.
Bingo- I remember thinking that night with Thompson we likely hold on. Of course, if we had a 5th banner the Heels would make the fake 1924 banner even larger.

lotusland
12-18-2014, 02:53 PM
But Murphy had several chances to cement a starting position before Hood arrived. He was anointed the starting 3 several times and simply didn't play well enough to maintain the level of play Duke expected of him. Had he done so, Duke might never have approached Hood. Murphy didn't decline to wait his turn. He had his turn(s) and didn't capitalize on them.

Most Duke transfers have done well at their new schools, the exceptions being Mike Chappell and Taylor King and maybe Bill Jackman, who started at Nebraska but ended his career there on the bench.

I think you are looking through rose colored glasses. I don't remember Murphy ever being anointed anything. He was given spot minutes here and there. I'm not saying it's wrong or even regrettable but Duke always goes after the best players it can get. We brought in a freshman to start over our Senior PG. I don't believe that Duke would have backed off Hood or Winslow unless Murphy was actually playing better than Hood and Winslow which is a pretty high standard and certainly not equivalent to being "anointed". You are the one who said players don't want to "wait their turn" in regard to Semi but now you are saying his "turn" would pretty much amount to the opportunities that he's already had but didn't capitalize on. I don't see where Murphy was ever anointed any more than Semi was. I'm not even arguing that either should be anointed. Why not just say it's Duke always goes after the best players that fit their program so you have to compete with the best for playing time as long as your here?

I'm not offering a solution but rather stating an opionion that meeting our best players at the beginning of each season is not as enjoyable to me as watching guys develop into star players as Juniors and Seniors. I'm also aware that I may not enjoy it as much when the Murphy and Ojeleye level recruits are our top recruits each year and we're a borderline top 20 team. Everyone is going after the same recruits but Duke is just having a little more success lately.

FerryFor50
12-18-2014, 02:58 PM
I think you are looking through rose colored glasses. I don't remember Murphy ever being anointed anything. He was given spot minutes here and there. I'm not saying it's wrong or even regrettable but Duke always goes after the best players it can get. We brought in a freshman to start over our Senior PG. I don't believe that Duke would have backed off Hood or Winslow unless Murphy was actually playing better than Hood and Winslow which is a pretty high standard and certainly not equivalent to being "anointed". You are the one who said players don't want to "wait their turn" in regard to Semi but now you are saying his "turn" would pretty much amount to the opportunities that he's already had but didn't capitalize on. I don't see where Murphy was ever anointed any more than Semi was. I'm not even arguing that either should be anointed. Why not just say it's Duke always goes after the best players that fit their program so you have to compete with the best for playing time as long as your here?

I'm not offering a solution but rather stating an opionion that meeting our best players at the beginning of each season is not as enjoyable to me as watching guys develop into star players as Juniors and Seniors. I'm also aware that I may not enjoy it as much when the Murphy and Ojeleye level recruits are our top recruits each year and we're a borderline top 20 team. Everyone is going after the same recruits but Duke is just having a little more success lately.

Transfers are a two way street, though. A player has just as much, if not more say, into transferring. Lots of different reasons, too. Sometimes, reasons aren't publicized for whatever reason. Some guys want to go closer to home. Some want playing time. Others just don't "fit." I just don't think transfers are ever the end of the world. And, as you pointed out, the option of getting nothing but 3-4 year guys would leave Duke sometimes outside of the top 20, which no one would like. Recruiting is being handled very well these days, IMO.

lotusland
12-18-2014, 03:42 PM
Transfers are a two way street, though. A player has just as much, if not more say, into transferring. Lots of different reasons, too. Sometimes, reasons aren't publicized for whatever reason. Some guys want to go closer to home. Some want playing time. Others just don't "fit." I just don't think transfers are ever the end of the world. And, as you pointed out, the option of getting nothing but 3-4 year guys would leave Duke sometimes outside of the top 20, which no one would like. Recruiting is being handled very well these days, IMO.

I agree and I think Semi made the right choice. Had we known with certainty how good Winslow would be as a Freshman, Semi would have been Smart to transfer then. The only point I'm making is that a player's "opportunity" to play at Duke is affected, among other factors, by the talent we recruit AFTER he arrives.
;

FerryFor50
12-18-2014, 03:48 PM
I agree and I think Semi made the right choice. Had we known with certainty how good Winslow would be as a Freshman, Semi would have been Smart to transfer then. The only point I'm making is that a player's "opportunity" to play at Duke is affected, among other factors, by the talent we recruit AFTER he arrives.
;

True, but this happens everywhere. Companies hire new employees. NFL teams draft new QBs. If you're a player and not aware that life goes on outside of you, then a reality check is in order. :)

jimsumner
12-18-2014, 06:06 PM
I think you are looking through rose colored glasses. I don't remember Murphy ever being anointed anything. He was given spot minutes here and there. I'm not saying it's wrong or even regrettable but Duke always goes after the best players it can get. We brought in a freshman to start over our Senior PG. I don't believe that Duke would have backed off Hood or Winslow unless Murphy was actually playing better than Hood and Winslow which is a pretty high standard and certainly not equivalent to being "anointed". You are the one who said players don't want to "wait their turn" in regard to Semi but now you are saying his "turn" would pretty much amount to the opportunities that he's already had but didn't capitalize on. I don't see where Murphy was ever anointed any more than Semi was. I'm not even arguing that either should be anointed. Why not just say it's Duke always goes after the best players that fit their program so you have to compete with the best for playing time as long as your here?

I'm not offering a solution but rather stating an opionion that meeting our best players at the beginning of each season is not as enjoyable to me as watching guys develop into star players as Juniors and Seniors. I'm also aware that I may not enjoy it as much when the Murphy and Ojeleye level recruits are our top recruits each year and we're a borderline top 20 team. Everyone is going after the same recruits but Duke is just having a little more success lately.

Duke absolutely expected Murphy to be a multi-year starter at the 3 before going on to a long and productive NBA career. That is not a guess on my part. He played his way into the starting lineup in practice and played his way out of it in games. Duke backed off Justin Anderson because of their perception of Murphy's future and told Poythress that they were recruiting him as a stretch 4 because they didn't need him to play the 3.

I've repeatedly stated on this and other boards that Duke is a meritocracy, the players that Duke recruits know that going in and that I'm more than fine with it. My point regarding Murphy was that he does not fit the narrative of a player who couldn't wait his chance. Duke wanted, needed and expected him to be an impact player at small forward. Once it became apparent that this was not going to happen, then Murphy started looking around.

Ojeleye was never at that expectation level. I do think he could have increased his PT down the road.

To Yanceyems question. Stars at other schools?

Depends on one's definition of star. But Elliott Williams was pretty darn good at Memphis. Star level by any rational definition. Crawford Palmer was second-team All-Ivy at Dartmouth. Chris Burgess was pretty good as a junior at Utah and was averaging 13 ppg as a senior before foot problems torpedoed his career. Greg Wendt at Detroit, Christian Ast at American and Joey Beard at Boston are examples of players who starred at a lower-level program. Jamal Boykin averaged 12 and 7 and was second-team All-Pac 10 for an NCAA team in 2010. Eric Boateng started for an NCAA team. Olez Cyz was first-team All-WAC in 2012. Andre Sweet started for an NCAA team at Seton Hall. Michael Thompson was averaging around 10 and 5 at Northwestern before a heart condition ended his career.

And we all know about McCaffrey. But Duke did offer McCaffrey a chance to redshirt in 1992, so that he could have started at point in 1994, as a fifth-year senior. So, he could have helped Duke in both the 1993 and 1994 NCAAs.

So, I think it's accurate to state that the overwhelming number of Duke transfers did well at their new schools and I would argue that anyone who made their all-conference would qualify as a star at that level.

Bluedog
12-22-2014, 12:14 PM
Semi has six schools on his list now according to CBS Sports: Illinois, Creighton, Washington, SMU, Oregon, and Wisconsin.
http://wisconsin.247sports.com/Bolt/Ojeleye-Down-to-Six-34049979

Not really full of academic powerhouses on that list like many on here had predicted...

-jk
12-22-2014, 12:28 PM
Semi has six schools on his list now according to CBS Sports: Illinois, Creighton, Washington, SMU, Oregon, and Wisconsin.
http://wisconsin.247sports.com/Bolt/Ojeleye-Down-to-Six-34049979

Not really full of academic powerhouses on that list like many on here had predicted...

If you haven't listened yet, Laura Keeley spoke to the issue in the current DBR Podcast.

-jk

Clay Feet POF
12-22-2014, 12:28 PM
Semi has six schools on his list now according to CBS Sports: Illinois, Creighton, Washington, SMU, Oregon, and Wisconsin.
http://wisconsin.247sports.com/Bolt/Ojeleye-Down-to-Six-34049979

Not really full of academic powerhouses on that list like many on here had predicted...


Well with the ex-Duke players now coaching that eliminates a few places.

Bluedog
12-22-2014, 12:37 PM
If you haven't listened yet, Laura Keeley spoke to the issue in the current DBR Podcast.

-jk

Ah, thanks for the tip. Will have to listen to it later for sure!


Well with the ex-Duke players now coaching that eliminates a few places.

Yes, very true -- I was thinking the same thing. Non-ACC top 40 US News & World Report schools that are also in the top 100 kenpom: Stanford, Harvard, Vanderbilt, Cal, UCLA, and Michigan (UNC, Virginia, Notre Dame, and Georgia Tech also meet those conditions, but are in the ACC). So, it's not like there are that many choices. Pretty amazing that 5/11 of the schools meeting those thresholds (if you include Duke) are in the ACC. At least, I don't think I missed any schools, but I could have. Hopefully, Northwestern will be added to that list soon! For full disclosure, Wisconsin, IL, and Washington would meet the criteria if you expanded it to top 50 US News schools, so certainly those schools are no slouches academically.

Henderson
12-22-2014, 12:55 PM
Semi has six schools on his list now according to CBS Sports: Illinois, Creighton, Washington, SMU, Oregon, and Wisconsin.
http://wisconsin.247sports.com/Bolt/Ojeleye-Down-to-Six-34049979

Not really full of academic powerhouses on that list like many on here had predicted...

A young man who is motivated academically can succeed exceptionally well at any of those schools. There's been an enormous democratization in higher education in the past 30 years. Long gone are the days when a rich kid got a "good" education by showing up at an elite school on Daddy's dime, swilled beer, and miked his degree in hopes of impressing employers with his education.

"Academic powerhouse" for undergraduates = Will and Work.

Go Semi!

sagegrouse
12-22-2014, 01:15 PM
Semi has six schools on his list now according to CBS Sports: Illinois, Creighton, Washington, SMU, Oregon, and Wisconsin.
http://wisconsin.247sports.com/Bolt/Ojeleye-Down-to-Six-34049979

Not really full of academic powerhouses on that list like many on here had predicted...

All good basketball schools. Here's the list with today's KenPom ranking:

Illinois #40
Creighton #79
Washington #31
SMU #30
Oregon #52
Wisconsin #4

yancem
12-22-2014, 02:28 PM
Depends on one's definition of star. But Elliott Williams was pretty darn good at Memphis. Star level by any rational definition. Crawford Palmer was second-team All-Ivy at Dartmouth. Chris Burgess was pretty good as a junior at Utah and was averaging 13 ppg as a senior before foot problems torpedoed his career. Greg Wendt at Detroit, Christian Ast at American and Joey Beard at Boston are examples of players who starred at a lower-level program. Jamal Boykin averaged 12 and 7 and was second-team All-Pac 10 for an NCAA team in 2010. Eric Boateng started for an NCAA team. Olez Cyz was first-team All-WAC in 2012. Andre Sweet started for an NCAA team at Seton Hall. Michael Thompson was averaging around 10 and 5 at Northwestern before a heart condition ended his career.

And we all know about McCaffrey. But Duke did offer McCaffrey a chance to redshirt in 1992, so that he could have started at point in 1994, as a fifth-year senior. So, he could have helped Duke in both the 1993 and 1994 NCAAs.

So, I think it's accurate to state that the overwhelming number of Duke transfers did well at their new schools and I would argue that anyone who made their all-conference would qualify as a star at that level.

I had forgotten about Elliot Williams but I kind of put him in a different category because playing time wasn't the primary reason why he transferred. He left to be closer to an ailing family member. As for the others, yes they all went on to have solid careers at their new schools but being all conference in the Ivy League or WAC wouldn't translate to being a star at Duke. I didn't realize that Boykin was second team PAC 10, that is pretty impressive but my point was more to the impact on Duke by the departure. Had any of them stayed (Williams and McCaffrey excepted) I don't think that any of the other transfers would have gone on to be all conference in the ACC had they stuck around at Duke (Burgess maybe if he stayed healthy). Like I said, Thompson may have had a direct impact on the 2004 championship but Duke was able to pretty ably replace the other transfers to eliminate any measurable negatives caused by them. On the whole, I think that Duke has been helped more by the incoming transfers than hurt by the outgoing ones.

Papa John
12-22-2014, 03:20 PM
A young man who is motivated academically can succeed exceptionally well at any of those schools. There's been an enormous democratization in higher education in the past 30 years. Long gone are the days when a rich kid got a "good" education by showing up at an elite school on Daddy's dime, swilled beer, and miked his degree in hopes of impressing employers with his education.

"Academic powerhouse" for undergraduates = Will and Work.

Go Semi!

Well stated! All of the schools listed are wonderful academic institutions with excellent basketball programs.

duketaylor
12-22-2014, 03:38 PM
I had hoped he might transfer up here to VCU; it would be a very good fit, IMO.

jimsumner
12-22-2014, 05:49 PM
I had forgotten about Elliot Williams but I kind of put him in a different category because playing time wasn't the primary reason why he transferred. He left to be closer to an ailing family member. As for the others, yes they all went on to have solid careers at their new schools but being all conference in the Ivy League or WAC wouldn't translate to being a star at Duke. I didn't realize that Boykin was second team PAC 10, that is pretty impressive but my point was more to the impact on Duke by the departure. Had any of them stayed (Williams and McCaffrey excepted) I don't think that any of the other transfers would have gone on to be all conference in the ACC had they stuck around at Duke (Burgess maybe if he stayed healthy). Like I said, Thompson may have had a direct impact on the 2004 championship but Duke was able to pretty ably replace the other transfers to eliminate any measurable negatives caused by them. On the whole, I think that Duke has been helped more by the incoming transfers than hurt by the outgoing ones.

At the risk of being overly pedantic you did reference lack of star quality at the new school(s). "While it is true that most of Duke's transfers (out) have gone on to be solid players at their new school, with the exception of Billy McCaffrey, I don't believe that any have gone on to be stars." I would maintain that being all-conference at the second school would constitute being a star at that school and conference.

Edouble
12-22-2014, 07:10 PM
I had hoped he might transfer up here to VCU; it would be a very good fit, IMO.

FWIW, I went to Duke undergrad and loved it, VCU for grad school and hated it. The schools, the cities, the culture, and the people are like night and day. If Duke was a god fit for most things besides playing time, I don't see why VCU would be a good fit at all.

yancem
12-23-2014, 01:27 PM
At the risk of being overly pedantic you did reference lack of star quality at the new school(s). "While it is true that most of Duke's transfers (out) have gone on to be solid players at their new school, with the exception of Billy McCaffrey, I don't believe that any have gone on to be stars." I would maintain that being all-conference at the second school would constitute being a star at that school and conference.

Yes, I suppose I could have worded my statement a little more precisely, but my intent was that they didn't go on to be "stars" in the broader sense of college basketball not specifically for their new school. Which from a Duke centric standpoint makes more sense anyway. These players originally started at the high level of Duke basketball. Moving down to lower programs and leagues and having success, while certainly nice and better than failing at the lower levels, doesn't reflect their initial trajectory. Saying someone became a star necessarily requires some context. Being a star at the Local School for Leprosy is certainly different than being a star in a college power program or the nba.

jimsumner
12-23-2014, 02:34 PM
Yes, I suppose I could have worded my statement a little more precisely, but my intent was that they didn't go on to be "stars" in the broader sense of college basketball not specifically for their new school. Which from a Duke centric standpoint makes more sense anyway. These players originally started at the high level of Duke basketball. Moving down to lower programs and leagues and having success, while certainly nice and better than failing at the lower levels, doesn't reflect their initial trajectory. Saying someone became a star necessarily requires some context. Being a star at the Local School for Leprosy is certainly different than being a star in a college power program or the nba.

Move the goalposts much? I can only respond to what you wrote and you clearly wrote that McCaffrey was the only former Duke player to become a star at his new school. I believe that to be incorrect and cited numerous examples to support that view, none of which involved the Local School for Leprosy.

grad_devil
12-23-2014, 03:32 PM
Not too long before it was announced that Semi was transferring, the NCAA research arm released a 1-page report tracking transfers in Division 1 men's basketball (http://huckleberry.mhu.edu/uncch/index.php?page=transfer).

Some interesting tidbits of information on there, but the one that piqued my interest the most was this one:


...about 40% of all MBB players who enter Division I directly out of high school depart their initial school by the end of their sophomore year.

I don't think we see that number at the high-level Division I schools, so transferring must be even more rampant at the FCS/1-A/mid-major/whatever level.

yancem
12-23-2014, 05:19 PM
Move the goalposts much? I can only respond to what you wrote and you clearly wrote that McCaffrey was the only former Duke player to become a star at his new school. I believe that to be incorrect and cited numerous examples to support that view, none of which involved the Local School for Leprosy.

I'm not sure why you are being so defensive or why you're attacking my posts. I already agreed that I could have worded my original statement more precisely (although I don't think that the intent was that hard discern) and then tried to clarify what I was trying to say. But in doing so, I some how "moved the goal posts"? I don't disagree that some of Duke's transfers went on to do well for their new schools (and even noted that I was unaware that some had done as well as they did) but that wasn't the conclusion I was trying to draw. My comment about "the Local School for Leprosy" was, I thought, an obvious use of hyperbole and wasn't meant to be swipe at your examples. I'm sorry if you took it that way.

Again, my point was that with exception of McCaffrey and Williams (which I admitted I had forgotten), none of the Duke transfers have gone on to be stars on the national stage (would you disagree?) and therefore have not had quite the negative impact on the court that many of us feared when said players left. Contrast that with the impact Mcloed (15.3 ppg, 5.6 rpg), Jones (17.7 ppg, 5.5rpg) and Curry (17.5 ppg) had during their senior seasons. We will have to see how Obi does but I'm hopeful that he will have a similar impact but clearly, to me at least, Duke has come out on the positive side when comparing the players coming vs the players going.

I do think that Semi may have the most potential of Duke's recent transfers (again Williams excepted). I always hope for success for the players to leave but I think Semi is the one I most wanted to watch develop.

Kedsy
12-23-2014, 09:31 PM
Contrast that with the impact Mcloed (15.3 ppg, 5.6 rpg), Jones (17.7 ppg, 5.5rpg) and Curry (17.5 ppg) had during their senior seasons. We will have to see how Obi does but I'm hopeful that he will have a similar impact but clearly, to me at least, Duke has come out on the positive side when comparing the players coming vs the players going.

Also Rodney Hood (16.1 ppg).

yancem
12-23-2014, 11:44 PM
Also Rodney Hood (16.1 ppg).

Thank you, I knew I was forgetting someone but for the life of me I couldn't pull it out of my skull. I even went through several years of statgeek but didn't think he was from way back to last year!!!!

subzero02
12-24-2014, 12:28 AM
Carrick Felix and Kris Humphries were semi-transfers.

sagegrouse
12-24-2014, 08:34 AM
Carrick Felix and Kris Humphries were semi-transfers.

By that reasoning, so was Bill Bradley.

jv001
12-24-2014, 09:31 AM
Thank you, I knew I was forgetting someone but for the life of me I couldn't pull it out of my skull. I even went through several years of statgeek but didn't think he was from way back to last year!!!!

Bob Bender was a pretty good point guard to transfer into Duke from Indiana. Not a high scorer but did ok with assist totals. GoDuke!

yancem
12-24-2014, 10:59 AM
Bob Bender was a pretty good point guard to transfer into Duke from Indiana. Not a high scorer but did ok with assist totals. GoDuke!

Bender was a good player. I am old enough to remember him but didn't remember being a transfer.

Kedsy
12-24-2014, 11:14 AM
Bender was a good player. I am old enough to remember him but didn't remember being a transfer.

He was a freshman on Indiana's undefeated 1976 national champions (last Division I college bball team to go undefeated). Two years later he was playing for a national championship with Duke.

sagegrouse
12-24-2014, 11:50 AM
There are three main types of transfers:


Those looking for more playing time -- the biggest category

Those looking for better competition or better coaching

Those forced to leave by being kicked out of school

In a top-five program like Duke, transfers in will tend to be better players than transfers out. First, the school will have better data on transfers in, cuz they have played at the collegiate level and are older, more mature players. Second, a top program will have a lot of transfers out, because with from 10 to 13 players, some will not get a lot of minutes in the rotation -- or, at least, a lot of minutes as soon as they would like.

OldPhiKap
12-24-2014, 11:54 AM
There are three main types of transfers:


Those looking for more playing time -- the biggest category

Those looking for better competition or better coaching

Those forced to leave by being kicked out of school

In a top-five program like Duke, transfers in will tend to be better players than transfers out. First, the school will have better data on transfers in, cuz they have played at the collegiate level and are older, more mature players. Second, a top program will have a lot of transfers out, because with from 10 to 13 players, some will not get a lot of minutes in the rotation -- or, at least, a lot of minutes as soon as they would like.

I would add a fourth category -- those who transfer due to family issues (EWill, Connette come to mind). But agree with the rest of your post.