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View Full Version : This week in College BBall - Non Duke teams (maybe non ACC, too)



Billy Dat
12-07-2014, 11:18 AM
With all the great top 10 match-ups this weekend, I have gotten my first extended looks at several top 10 teams. There seems to be a lot of really good teams out there and it feels like we need a thread to post our comments on them as the season moves along, or any other big college hoops news related to actual games. Let's see if this thread addresses a gap...

There is a separate thread on the Kentucky and Texas game from Friday. No need to rehash it here but both teams are Final Four worthy.

Yesterday, I caught Arizona v Gonzaga. Both teams are very good. In a lot of ways, Arizona has just swapped Aaron Gordon for Stanley Johnson, which gives them more offense and less defense. The team is still tough defensively but they struggle to score. Johnson and Brandon Ashley can score, and Tarczewski showed me some low post moves I didn't think he had. But, they don't really look good on offense. I am not a student of Sean Miller's coaching career, do his teams usually struggle on offense? The are a top 20 KenPom offense so maybe they are just failing some eye test with me. He only played 9 minutes, but the freshman guard off the bench, Parker Jackson-Cartwright, is a jet!!!

Gonzaga is a really fun team to watch because they have a unique personality. Aside from Kyle Wiltjer playing the Frank Kaminsky invert the offense with the huge perimeter player role, the 7'1", nearly 300 pound glacier with pillow soft hand, Przemek Karnowski, was nowhere on my radar. What an interesting weapon he is. People are all about Kevin Pangos at the PG, and he's really solid and the clear leader of the squad, and Byron Wesley and Gary Bell are solid, elite-D1-team-caliber starting perimeter players who get it done on both ends. But, the other interesting kid is Arvydas' son, Domantas Sabonis. He had a bad game yesterday, but you can see the skills and the insane intensity. In fact, he was very emotional, very freshman-like, getting goaded into lashing out and being too physical. But, he "plays with an edge" that every coach likes.

Between this game, our game, and the Kentucky/Texas game, it is amazing how many huge skilled players are in college hoops right now. Kaminsky, Okafor, Townes, Cauley-Stein, Wiltjer, Tarczewski, Dakari Johnson, Myles Turner, Trey Lyles, Karnowski, and on.

I caught Wisconsin/Marquette just to watch Wojo. He's a sideline stalker - I love it! He sat for maybe the first few minutes but barely sat after that. It was great to see C-Well and Thornton on the bench, and my jaw nearly dropped to see Marquette play zone the whole game. Like his mentor, he is letting his personnel drive his approach. Unlike his mentor, he was willing to mix up his D.

Go Yale, beat UConn!
Go NJIT, beat Michigan!
Go USC Upstate, Beat Georgia Tech!
Go Green Bay, Beat Miami!

Olympic Fan
12-07-2014, 03:33 PM
Go Yale, beat UConn!
Go NJIT, beat Michigan!
Go USC Upstate, Beat Georgia Tech!
Go Green Bay, Beat Miami!

I don't get these ... not only do I like and admire Larranaga and his program and I like Brian Gregory (can't say I admire his program), but it's better for us (and the ACC) if Miami and Georgia Tech win.

The NJIT upset is interesting. I made a comment in another thread that Marquette was off to a shaky start and one of the reasons was that they had to rally in the final minutes and then beat NJIT in OT.

That doesn't look so bad right now. In my defense NJIT has been one of the weakest teams in college basketball since joining Division 1, including a 2-5 start this season. Apparently, there's some potential there.

If you watched a lot of college basketball the last few days, you have to see how weak the SEC is -- beyond Kentucky. Even Florida, expected to be a very strong team, is struggling. After that, there's nothing. The SEC is looking like the kind of West Coast Conference lineup that Gonzaga has dominated in recent years. Maybe worse -- not sure Florida is better than St. Mary's -- we'll see. I feel pretty confident that BYU is better than whoever is third in the SEC.

Kentucky is a legitimate national championship contender. And they do play a strong non-conference schedule. But I wonder how prepared they'll be for the NCAA Tournament after two months of beating up SEC patsies.

Billy Dat
12-07-2014, 04:30 PM
I don't get these ... not only do I like and admire Larranaga and his program and I like Brian Gregory (can't say I admire his program), but it's better for us (and the ACC) if Miami and Georgia Tech win.

I wasn't really advocating, just laundry listing all the upsets.

richardjackson199
12-07-2014, 04:49 PM
I don't get these ... not only do I like and admire Larranaga and his program and I like Brian Gregory (can't say I admire his program), but it's better for us (and the ACC) if Miami and Georgia Tech win.

The NJIT upset is interesting. I made a comment in another thread that Marquette was off to a shaky start and one of the reasons was that they had to rally in the final minutes and then beat NJIT in OT.

That doesn't look so bad right now. In my defense NJIT has been one of the weakest teams in college basketball since joining Division 1, including a 2-5 start this season. Apparently, there's some potential there.

If you watched a lot of college basketball the last few days, you have to see how weak the SEC is -- beyond Kentucky. Even Florida, expected to be a very strong team, is struggling. After that, there's nothing. The SEC is looking like the kind of West Coast Conference lineup that Gonzaga has dominated in recent years. Maybe worse -- not sure Florida is better than St. Mary's -- we'll see. I feel pretty confident that BYU is better than whoever is third in the SEC.

Kentucky is a legitimate national championship contender. And they do play a strong non-conference schedule. But I wonder how prepared they'll be for the NCAA Tournament after two months of beating up SEC patsies.

Excellent point. I believe that phenomenon also hurt UNLV in 91. UK's early games against Kansas, Texas, Louisville, and UNC will help them. So that is much better prep than who UNLV played that year before the tourney.

It's a double edged sword. Cal probably likes the fact that it increases the probability that they enter the NCAA Tourney undefeated. That helps your seeding, obviously. Win it all and be considered one of the greatest teams of all time (true or not - you go undefeated you're in the conversation). But I think it definitely hurts when you get into the NCAA tourney and start playing much tougher competition in very high pressure games.

I prefer our tough schedule all year. We're likely to lose some road games in conference - but we should be more prepared for the big dance.

Olympic Fan
12-07-2014, 08:02 PM
More evidence of the SEC's weakness -- No. 18 Arkansas, rated the league's No. 3 team, just lost to Clemson, which I in the running as the ACC;s worst team.

I know it was at Littlejohn, so Clemson had the homecourt, but two Big South teams have already beaten Clemson there. Plus, the worst tea in the Big Ten.

Arkansas lost earlier in the week to Iowa State. Pretty good chance that as of tomorrow, Kentucky will be the only ranked SEC team.

Billy Dat
12-09-2014, 01:07 PM
I caught a few of the usual early week podcasts which included some interesting discussion.

CBS Eye on College Basketball Pod:
http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/24874498/podcast-arizona-gonzaga-kentuckys-historic-d-and-giving-unbeaten-uva-some-love

They hop around a lot, but also give UVA a lot of time. Aside from calling Tony Bennett the sexiest coach in college basketball (note, these are straight men having this discussion), they talk about how awesome the UVA defense is, and also why UVA doesn't get major attention (great but vanilla coach, defense vs offense focus, lack of NBA talent). I find this pod always entertaining and informative. Gary Parrish is a big personality with a radio hosts' penchant for lengthy monologues - but he's very funny. Matt Norlander is the laconic hipster type who is also a favorite target for Parrish's barbs. They usually have a 3rd man who gets shut out of most of the discussion (Jeff Borzello used to be the guy before he went to ESPN, now it is a kid named Sam Vecenie who replaced Borzello on the recruiting beat). On Thursdays, Parrish will usually host with a different guest. Before he went to ESPN, Jeff Goodman was the 3rd man on this pod and those episodes used to be very entertaining.

ESPN College Basketball podcast:
http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=11999620

Good interviews with Sean Miller (post Gonazaga) and Jay Wright (pre Jimmy V). Andy Katz has made it, seamingly, a mission to push the NCAA Committee to weigh non conference true road games much heavier than they currently do. Sean Miller, who usually schedules at least 2 such games, was a supporter of the idea. Jay Wright, to his credit, got into all the financial aspects of the decision to play true road games vs neutral site games at large arenas. He also provides a good update on his team as they prep for a good game with Illinois tonight.

Wander
12-09-2014, 02:20 PM
Well, the other reason people haven't been talking much about Virginia is their schedule. It's not at TCU level by any means as away victories at Maryland and VCU are decent wins, but they never had a big marquee match-up that top 10 teams usually have. Which is too bad, because I think they are legit a top 10 team. It's not unthinkable that UVA is undefeated when we play them on Jan 31, actually.

flyingdutchdevil
12-09-2014, 02:34 PM
Well, the other reason people haven't been talking much about Virginia is their schedule. It's not at TCU level by any means as away victories at Maryland and VCU are decent wins, but they never had a big marquee match-up that top 10 teams usually have. Which is too bad, because I think they are legit a top 10 team. It's not unthinkable that UVA is undefeated when we play them on Jan 31, actually.

The remainder of their non-conference schedule is kind of a joke, but they face Miami at Miami and Notre Dame at South Bend before facing us. Given the right environment (or wrong environment), I see UVA losing one of those.

Can I say that Tony Bennett is a rock star? I love watching his teams play defense, and believe that Bennett is the best of the "young generation" of coaches (he's only 45. And yes, I think he's better than Sean Miller). My gut tells me he's going to Indiana, UCLA, or Texas in the next few years. I hope not, but once Crean, Alford, or Barnes lose their job(s), Bennett will be high on the list.

Ichabod Drain
12-09-2014, 02:47 PM
Tough news for Wojo. Two players Devonte Burton and John Dawson are transferring after the semester. Dawson has only played four minutes this season but Burton was averaging 6.4 ppg in 16 mpg.

Some good news for Wojo though is 6'11" Luke Fischer who transferred from Indiana will be eligible after this semester. As of now Marquette's tallest player is 6'7" so hopefully Fischer will be able to make a significant contribution.

Duvall
12-09-2014, 03:12 PM
Well, the other reason people haven't been talking much about Virginia is their schedule. It's not at TCU level by any means as away victories at Maryland and VCU are decent wins, but they never had a big marquee match-up that top 10 teams usually have. Which is too bad, because I think they are legit a top 10 team. It's not unthinkable that UVA is undefeated when we play them on Jan 31, actually.

Well, let's hope not. If they haven't lost by then they'll probably finish first in the conference.

English
12-09-2014, 03:20 PM
Tough news for Wojo. Two players Devonte Burton and John Dawson are transferring after the semester. Dawson has only played four minutes this season but Burton was averaging 6.4 ppg in 16 mpg.

Some good news for Wojo though is 6'11" Luke Fischer who transferred from Indiana will be eligible after this semester. As of now Marquette's tallest player is 6'7" so hopefully Fischer will be able to make a significant contribution.

You're right with everyone you said above, with one minor quibble--and I know how finicky DBR can be when it comes to names--the (relatively) productive player at Marquette who will be transferring with his buddy John Dawson is Deonte Burton (not Devonte Burton).

Carry on.

Billy Dat
12-09-2014, 03:38 PM
Can I say that Tony Bennett is a rock star? I love watching his teams play defense, and believe that Bennett is the best of the "young generation" of coaches (he's only 45. And yes, I think he's better than Sean Miller). My gut tells me he's going to Indiana, UCLA, or Texas in the next few years. I hope not, but once Crean, Alford, or Barnes lose their job(s), Bennett will be high on the list.

Good reminder, they were using a "Brad Stevens" comp on the CBS podcast.

Olympic Fan
12-10-2014, 12:15 AM
Wow, Michigan followed their home loss to NJIT with a home loss to Eastern Michigan Tuesday night.

Their next gam is Saturday at Arizona.

Billy Dat
12-10-2014, 12:23 AM
I got a first look at Louisville tonight. They remind me of a slightly better offensive team than the typical Bub Huggins Cincy Bearcat teams of yore...physical and playing with a nasty edge, not great shooters, pressure all over the court, etc. They remind me more of Cincy and less of, say, more recent Louisville teams because they lack a real great shooter. Jones is a rock solid point, watching the Joneses battle will be great when we play them. Rozier seems like their best shooter and he filled it up tonight with 5 3s and 26 pts total. Harrell and Blackshear are monsters. The have a few more bigs then I remembered. How about these for team stats:

49 total rebounds, 24 offensive rebounds
15 assists
10 steals
8 blocks

Watching them play us and Kentucky will be great. Their two games against UVA will be fascinating studies in contrast.

For what its worth, Indiana was better and more athletic than I thought they'd be. They are really small, but have good players who can shoot and their defense wasn't terrible, they just couldn't rebound.

lotusland
12-10-2014, 09:20 PM
Kentucky has connected on 9 of it's last 58 three-pointers going into their match up with the sharp-shooters from the hump. Better block out fellas.

roywhite
12-10-2014, 10:18 PM
Kentucky has connected on 9 of it's last 58 three-pointers going into their match up with the sharp-shooters from the hump. Better block out fellas.

Playing at home vs Columbia, they trailed at halftime and didn't go ahead until 13 minutes remained, finally winning by 10 points.

Sorry, this is a team that has a lot going for it, but the Wildcats certainly do not look like a team deserving of a #1 ranking, let alone a unanimous vote for #1.

duketaylor
12-10-2014, 10:55 PM
UK's stats are just plain hideous-gotta believe it's some freak anomaly. The game was tied at the at 25. Not sure how UK only scores 25 at home against said team.

Duvall
12-10-2014, 11:11 PM
UK's stats are just plain hideous-gotta believe it's some freak anomaly. The game was tied at the at 25. Not sure how UK only scores 25 at home against said team.

Tempo was a big part of it - Columbia plays slower than just about every other team, and this game only had 51 possessions.

DukieTiger
12-11-2014, 01:54 AM
The remainder of their non-conference schedule is kind of a joke, but they face Miami at Miami and Notre Dame at South Bend before facing us. Given the right environment (or wrong environment), I see UVA losing one of those.

Can I say that Tony Bennett is a rock star? I love watching his teams play defense, and believe that Bennett is the best of the "young generation" of coaches (he's only 45. And yes, I think he's better than Sean Miller). My gut tells me he's going to Indiana, UCLA, or Texas in the next few years. I hope not, but once Crean, Alford, or Barnes lose their job(s), Bennett will be high on the list.

Re: Bennett- don't look now, but they return everyone next year. Good grief that will be a good team, not to even speak of this year's version.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
12-11-2014, 02:46 AM
UK's stats are just plain hideous-gotta believe it's some freak anomaly. The game was tied at the at 25. Not sure how UK only scores 25 at home against said team.

You must be confused. Haven't you heard - this year's UK team is the best team in the history of sports.

weezie
12-11-2014, 08:26 AM
Anybody think the annoyance meter is pinging high amongst the mi wolverine faithful towards beilein?

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
12-11-2014, 08:31 AM
Anybody think the annoyance meter is pinging high amongst the mi wolverine faithful towards beilein?

I pay sort of peripheral attention to UM, as I have a friend in Ann Arbor and the days of Tommy as coach more than balanced out the days of the Fab Five in my mind.

But, I have yet to watch them play. Does anyone have insight into their decline? They seemed to be a program building back towards a regular spot near the top of the polls and was showing real signs of success in recent seasons.

Would love a theory.

Thanks!

Wheat/"/"/"
12-11-2014, 09:33 AM
Somebody's not been paying attention to Tokoto's overall play this year. He continues to greatly improve, lacking mostly aggressiveness to make the big leap, IMO.

In the front page story he's described as a "useful athlete" which is a laughable, condescending way to describe him. He compares very favorably with his play this season to Justise Winslow...and I doubt he'd be described that way by anyone without a biased, rival fans opinion.

Monmouth77
12-11-2014, 09:56 AM
Somebody's not been paying attention to Tokoto's overall play this year. He continues to greatly improve, lacking mostly aggressiveness to make the big leap, IMO.

In the front page story he's described as a "useful athlete" which is a laughable, condescending way to describe him. He compares very favorably with his play this season to Justise Winslow...and I doubt he'd be described that way by anyone without a biased, rival fans opinion.

With all due respect, this comment appears to betray your own lack of familiarity with Winslow's play this year.

Tokoto, to my eye at least, still appears to have significant trouble scoring from the field, and, though the sample size is small, still can't shoot. Winslow, by contrast, has made about as many 3s as Tokoto has attempted (and is shooting 38%), has gotten to the free throw line more, has jumped over guys to block shots, has flashed brilliant ball handling skills for a tall wing (going coast to coast a few times through the entire opposition's defense) and has generally played so well on both sides of the floor that he appears on just about every NBA draft guru's lottery list at the moment. It may be hyperbole, but NBA people (not Duke fans) are comparing him to a young James Harden.

So, I am not sure if you may be trolling us with this post, but what is "laughable" as you put it, is a comparison between Tokoto and Winslow -- at least as far as one can discern from the 8 game sample now before us.

OldPhiKap
12-11-2014, 09:58 AM
Somebody's not been paying attention to Tokoto's overall play this year. He continues to greatly improve, lacking mostly aggressiveness to make the big leap, IMO.

In the front page story he's described as a "useful athlete" which is a laughable, condescending way to describe him. He compares very favorably with his play this season to Justise Winslow...and I doubt he'd be described that way by anyone without a biased, rival fans opinion.

Tokoto was highly-regarded when he came in and is a good player. He would benefit from better outside shooting from someone besides Paige in order to open up some space, or to shoot better from outside so his defender has to come out more. But I think that anyone overlooking the Heels is making a mistake. They have the talent to play with anyone. If they are having a bad night shooting free throws or threes, though, they are very vulnerable.

(And yes, while that last point is applicable to about anyone, it has proven to be a lethal problem for Carolina last year and this).

I would not be surprised to see them hang well with Kentucky Saturday; an upset is not out of the realm of possibility.

I'll avoid the comment regarding Winslow -- I don't see the comparison, and a debate on that point will spin off quickly I think. I will simply state my belief that Winslow may have the best pro career of our three freshman and may have the most untapped upside. AND he's damn good now.

Edit to add: Monmouth's analysis of Winslow is right on.

roywhite
12-11-2014, 10:00 AM
Somebody's not been paying attention to Tokoto's overall play this year. He continues to greatly improve, lacking mostly aggressiveness to make the big leap, IMO.

In the front page story he's described as a "useful athlete" which is a laughable, condescending way to describe him. He compares very favorably with his play this season to Justise Winslow...and I doubt he'd be described that way by anyone without a biased, rival fans opinion.


With all due respect, this comment appears to betray your own lack of familiarity with Winslow's play this year.

Tokoto, to my eye at least, still appears to have significant trouble scoring from the field, and, though the sample size is small, still can't shoot. Winslow, by contrast, has made about as many 3s as Tokoto has attempted (and is shooting 38%), has gotten to the free throw line more, has jumped over guys to block shots, has flashed brilliant ball handling skills for a tall wing (going coast to coast a few times through the entire opposition's defense) and has generally played so well on both sides of the floor that he appears on just about every NBA draft guru's lottery list at the moment. It may be hyperbole, but NBA people (not Duke fans) are comparing him to a young James Harden.

So, I am not sure if you may be trolling us with this post, but what is "laughable" as you put it, is a comparison between Tokoto and Winslow -- at least as far as one can discern from the 8 game sample now before us.

Monmouth responds well.

Wheat, I guess you were serious, but I see Winslow as the better player pretty clearly. Fair enough, though, I'll watch Tokoto more closely (let's see how he does vs UK, for example) and see if the comparison is merited.

jv001
12-11-2014, 10:06 AM
Somebody's not been paying attention to Tokoto's overall play this year. He continues to greatly improve, lacking mostly aggressiveness to make the big leap, IMO.

In the front page story he's described as a "useful athlete" which is a laughable, condescending way to describe him. He compares very favorably with his play this season to Justise Winslow...and I doubt he'd be described that way by anyone without a biased, rival fans opinion.

I think most scouting types have Justise as an NBA 1st round draft choice. I don't see Tokoto being ranked anywhere near that level. I have not seen the tarheels play this year, but last season, Tokoto played aggressively. So, he must have changed his style of play. I think he's a good basketball player with poor shooting ability. Well, at least so far in his college career. GoDuke!

77devil
12-11-2014, 10:10 AM
Monmouth responds well.

Wheat, I guess you were serious, but I see Winslow as the better player pretty clearly. Fair enough, though, I'll watch Tokoto more closely (let's see how he does vs UK, for example) and see if the comparison is merited.

Plus Winslow is a freshman and Tokoto is a junior. Further, Winslow has already demonstrated the aggressiveness that Wheat concedes Tokoto lacks and has better stats in many categories. The attempted comparison is a false equivalency.

Wheat/"/"/"
12-11-2014, 11:00 AM
My point was not to argue who is the better player, or who the NBA believes has the most upside for the draft. It was to point out the condescending "useful athlete" comment.

Their play can be compared favorably this season, don't pay too much attention to stats beyond FT shooting %'s. Two different team playing styles and they won't tell the real story of how either player plays.

If you guys don't want to recognize how much he has improved, and how well he is playing this season, fine.

You can bet opposing coaches are noticing.

77devil
12-11-2014, 11:08 AM
My point was not to argue who is the better player, or who the NBA believes has the most upside for the draft. It was to point out the condescending "useful athlete" comment.


If that's truly the case, you could have sent a complaint instead to the author of the front page article that you referred to.

Wander
12-11-2014, 11:10 AM
Their play can be compared favorably this season, don't pay too much attention to stats beyond FT shooting %'s. Two different team playing styles and they won't tell the real story of either players play.


So the one stat we're allowed to use is basically the only stat (aside from assists) that Tokoto is better than Winslow at?

The "stats don't tell us anything" meme is silly. Tokoto is a bad shooter. This is an improvement, because he used to be a horrific shooter. These things are reflected very well in the statistics. Aside from the fact that Tokoto has become a pretty good passer, "useful athlete" seems to me like a completely fair term to describe him. "Poor man's Winslow" is another.

Wheat/"/"/"
12-11-2014, 11:19 AM
So the one stat we're allowed to use is basically the only stat (aside from assists) that Tokoto is better than Winslow at?


It's the only stat that's not subject to team influences.

DukieInBrasil
12-11-2014, 11:21 AM
My point was not to argue who is the better player, or who the NBA believes has the most upside for the draft. It was to point out the condescending "useful athlete" comment.

Their play can be compared favorably this season, don't pay too much attention to stats beyond FT shooting %'s. Two different team playing styles and they won't tell the real story of either players play.

If you guys don't want to recognize how much he has improved, and how well he is playing this season, fine.

You can bet opposing coaches are noticing.

Their stats are similar enough that the two certainly are worth comparing. Justise clearly leads in several categories, they're essentially tied in others, and JW lags in FT% and APG, and i would rather have Justise on my team than Tokoto. But i have to agree with Wheat, Tokoto's stats indicate he's more than just a "useful athlete", and is actually playing pretty well. Now, if he could shoot he would be even more "useful".

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
12-11-2014, 11:27 AM
It's the only stat that's not subject to team influences.

Wheat, I defend you on here often, and I do think that Tokoto is coming along nicely and that he will play a big role in UNC's success this season.

But your stance on this is absurd. Yes, of course, all stats are dependent on team play. You could argue that even FTs are, as UNC has been in more close games and has therefore taken more free throws under pressure. So, ALL stats are influenced by team play, and are therefore null and void.

But absent statistics, what on earth do you compare? Are you suggesting we all just go to the eyeball test? If so, I think Winslow has had more explosive moments this season than JP.

How about we look at it the other way around.... a player with more steals/blocks/assists/points actually contributes more to the team play and skews things the other direction. So yeah, it's easy to build stats on a really good team. Because, you know, a good team has better players.

Your logic is so circulat it makes me dizzy.

Tom B.
12-11-2014, 12:11 PM
Tokoto was highly-regarded when he came in and is a good player. He would benefit from better outside shooting from someone besides Paige in order to open up some space, or to shoot better from outside so his defender has to come out more. But I think that anyone overlooking the Heels is making a mistake. They have the talent to play with anyone. If they are having a bad night shooting free throws or threes, though, they are very vulnerable.

(And yes, while that last point is applicable to about anyone, it has proven to be a lethal problem for Carolina last year and this).

I would not be surprised to see them hang well with Kentucky Saturday; an upset is not out of the realm of possibility.

I'll avoid the comment regarding Winslow -- I don't see the comparison, and a debate on that point will spin off quickly I think. I will simply state my belief that Winslow may have the best pro career of our three freshman and may have the most untapped upside. AND he's damn good now.

Edit to add: Monmouth's analysis of Winslow is right on.


Tokoto could develop into the next coming of MJ, but I'll always remember him for this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_trmTcEhPOg

johnb
12-11-2014, 12:40 PM
Regarding Carolina/Kentucky... short of them both losing the same game (which might be tough to arrange), who would you root for? G

Generally, of course, I go for a Carolina loss and will probably hope for 20-loss seasons for the foreseeable future, but, in this case, a Carolina win would be good for Duke. Not only would it get us to #1, but it would improve the quality of wins throughout the conference--and I hope teams get a lot of conference wins at the hands of Carolina this year.

Aside from general principle ("I always root against UNC, especially this year"), is there any reason not to want them to win this particular game?

sagegrouse
12-11-2014, 12:49 PM
Regarding Carolina/Kentucky... short of them both losing the same game (which might be tough to arrange), who would you root for? G

Generally, of course, I go for a Carolina loss and will probably hope for 20-loss seasons for the foreseeable future, but, in this case, a Carolina win would be good for Duke. Not only would it get us to #1, but it would improve the quality of wins throughout the conference--and I hope teams get a lot of conference wins at the hands of Carolina this year.

Aside from general principle ("I always root against UNC, especially this year"), is there any reason not to want them to win this particular game?

The Geminids meteor shower peaks Saturday and Sunday, in case you have a rooting interest.

Kindly, Sage
'Yes, I know that noon meteor strikes may break the laws of planetary physics'

Wheat/"/"/"
12-11-2014, 12:50 PM
Yes, of course, all stats are dependent on team play. You could argue that even FTs are, as UNC has been in more close games and has therefore taken more free throws under pressure. So, ALL stats are influenced by team play, and are therefore null and void.

I think you are quibbling about the FT point. It's the only stat where basically everything is equal to all players...same distance, nobody guarding you, etc... Of course, team A player's team presses, while team B player's walks it up the floor...one gets tired easier and it affects his shooting more than the better rested player. Quibbling, to me.

I'm not a big stats guy. I think they have a place to see how productive a player is generally, but way too many people try to use them as absolutes.

Again, my point that Tokoto can be compared favorably to Winslow is not a shot at Winslow, as it seems to have been received, it was meant to point out that Tokoto has earned more respect than being described as simply a "useful player".

devildeac
12-11-2014, 12:56 PM
Regarding Carolina/Kentucky... short of them both losing the same game (which might be tough to arrange), who would you root for? G

Generally, of course, I go for a Carolina loss and will probably hope for 20-loss seasons for the foreseeable future, but, in this case, a Carolina win would be good for Duke. Not only would it get us to #1, but it would improve the quality of wins throughout the conference--and I hope teams get a lot of conference wins at the hands of Carolina this year.

Aside from general principle ("I always root against UNC, especially this year"), is there any reason not to want them to win this particular game?

Looks like it's about time for some activity here early afternoon this Saturday.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Madrid_Seismic_Zone

Duvall
12-11-2014, 01:12 PM
I think you are quibbling about the FT point. It's the only stat where basically everything is equal to all players...same distance, nobody guarding you, etc... Of course, team A player's team presses, while team B player's walks it up the floor...one gets tired easier and it affects his shooting more than the better rested player. Quibbling, to me.

I'm not a big stats guy. I think they have a place to see how productive a player is generally, but way too many people try to use them as absolutes.

Again, my point that Tokoto can be compared favorably to Winslow is not a shot at Winslow, as it seems to have been received, it was meant to point out that Tokoto has earned more respect than being described as simply a "useful player".

Regardless of whether or not that's the case, let's at least pause to consider the context of the comment (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/2014/12/11/7375751/kentucky-has-trouble-finishing-columbia) - it wasn't part of a pan of UNC's talent, but rather a suggestion that UNC had a chance to go on the road and upset the #1 team in the country. Not a lot of bad intent there. It's also worth noting that any slight to Tokoto by describing him as merely "useful" was more than offset by the suggestion that Theo Pinson is also useful, when he clearly is not.

Wander
12-11-2014, 01:29 PM
The Geminids meteor shower peaks Saturday and Sunday, in case you have a rooting interest.

Kindly, Sage
'Yes, I know that noon meteor strikes may break the laws of planetary physics'

Meteor strikes have no preference for any time of day (simply more visible without the sun at night), so feel free to root for it!

lotusland
12-11-2014, 03:41 PM
Meteor strikes have no preference for any time of day (simply more visible without the sun at night), so feel free to root for it!

The safest hiding place to avoid falling objects might e in either of the nets.

Wheat/"/"/"
12-11-2014, 04:33 PM
I think you are quibbling about the FT point. It's the only stat where basically everything is equal to all players...same distance, nobody guarding you, etc... Of course, team A player's team presses, while team B player's walks it up the floor...one gets tired easier and it affects his shooting more than the better rested player. Quibbling, to me.

Mountain,
Just re-read that comment and realized it looks a lot more like a snarky comment than how I was hearing it in my head as I made the post. My apologies for once again failing to realize how hard it is to put tone in a comment.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
12-11-2014, 04:34 PM
I think you are quibbling about the FT point. It's the only stat where basically everything is equal to all players...same distance, nobody guarding you, etc... Of course, team A player's team presses, while team B player's walks it up the floor...one gets tired easier and it affects his shooting more than the better rested player. Quibbling, to me.

I'm not a big stats guy. I think they have a place to see how productive a player is generally, but way too many people try to use them as absolutes.

Again, my point that Tokoto can be compared favorably to Winslow is not a shot at Winslow, as it seems to have been received, it was meant to point out that Tokoto has earned more respect than being described as simply a "useful player".

I am definitely quibbling about the FT comment, because you insinuated it was the only non-inflated stat, which I think is absurd and ridiculous.

All stats are contextual. If UNC shoots 28% (I know, crazy example) there are more opportunties for offensive boards. A team that shoots 62% has far fewer chances to corral rebounds.

But jeez man, because of that you just toss out all stats as a way to compare players? What should we use? Free throws and height? Then MP3 is the best player in the land.

Don't condescend towards me because I am trying to point out how absurd your chosen metric is.

And jeez, like I say, I really like Tokoto. I think his success will play a huge rule in how many games UNC wins this year. And I think his free throw shooting is an asset. I just think it is possible to quantify his value beyond that one number.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
12-11-2014, 04:35 PM
Mountain,
Just re-read that comment and realized it looks a lot more like a snarky comment than how I was hearing it in my head as I made the post. My apologies for once again failing to realize how hard it is to put tone in a comment.

Oops.... and while you were typing that, I wrote out a nice little rant.

Anyways, god speed. I guess I wish you well on Saturday.

Wheat/"/"/"
12-11-2014, 06:08 PM
Oops.... and while you were typing that, I wrote out a nice little rant.

Anyways, god speed. I guess I wish you well on Saturday.

No worries, I deserved that.

devildeac
12-11-2014, 07:30 PM
Mountain,
Just re-read that comment and realized it looks a lot more like a snarky comment than how I was hearing it in my head as I made the post. My apologies for once again failing to realize how hard it is to put tone in a comment.

I use these a lot. Yea, they're kinda stupid/dumb but they keep me outta trouble (most of the time:o).

;):rolleyes::eek:

NSDukeFan
12-11-2014, 07:45 PM
I use these a lot. Yea, they're kinda stupid/dumb but they keep me outta trouble (most of the time:o).

;):rolleyes::eek:

Hey. Were you making fun of me the way you were rolling your eyes and smirking at me?

Henderson
12-11-2014, 08:01 PM
Hey. Were you making fun of me the way you were rolling your eyes and smirking at me?

Neither man. My brother devildeac was flirting. :eek:

devildeac
12-11-2014, 09:54 PM
Hey. Were you making fun of me the way you were rolling your eyes and smirking at me?


Neither man. My brother devildeac was flirting. :eek:

What Henderson said. Love and sporks to you both;).

Henderson
12-12-2014, 11:34 AM
The other number one team in the nation is also playing tomorrow. That's right, the Green Bay Phoenix, who have the best RPI in the country, will be taking on Drake. Green Bay's RPI is actually greater than their W-L record, and two of those games were against DII teams. Somehow they still got the #1 OOC SoS, which is what landed them the gaudy RPI I guess. Anyway, they ripped Miami pretty good last weekend and held their own against Wisconsin, so I guess they have some talent.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
12-13-2014, 11:44 AM
In a weird twist, I will br rooting for both UNC and Michigan today to bring the standings down a bit.

I will go vomit now, thanks.

pfrduke
12-13-2014, 06:53 PM
In a weird twist, I will br rooting for both UNC and Michigan today to bring the standings down a bit.

I will go vomit now, thanks.

Arizona is wiping the floor with the Wolverines. My biggest takeaway from Michigan's recent struggles is that Syracuse probably isn't going to be a great team this year.

CDu
12-13-2014, 06:59 PM
Arizona is wiping the floor with the Wolverines. My biggest takeaway from Michigan's recent struggles is that Syracuse probably isn't going to be a great team this year.

I think that was evident in Syracuse's double-digit losses to Cal and St John's.

OldPhiKap
12-13-2014, 09:30 PM
Notre Dame looking pretty good tonight. Crisp movement, good execution.